Evidence from Rebecca Burton (LFB Fire Safety Inspector) and Nicholas Comrie (LFB Team Leader) regarding concerns about TMO's fire risk assessor Carl Stokes, self-closing doors, fire action notices, vulnerable residents, and the LFB's approach to cladding. Both witnesses describe systemic failures in fire safety oversight and enforcement.
00:00:20 yes would you ask this person to come back in please
00:00:31 [Music]
00:00:38 ready to carry on yes thank you thank you very much yes mr kenneth thanks sir now i'd like to ask you about concerns that the lfp expressed about the fire risk assessor and which you asked to be added as an
00:00:49 and which you asked to be added as an agenda item for your meeting on the 20th of october 2015. now if we could turn to paragraph 10 of your second witness statement which can be found at lfb triple zero
00:01:00 which can be found at lfb triple zero eight four zero nine eight forward slash four
00:01:10 at the bottom of page now going on you outline certain concerns which you had in relation to uh the fire risk assessor after you've reviewed the adertal fire risk assessment and if we turn over the page to page
00:01:22 and if we turn over the page to page five and look at the end of the fifth line you say this my review of the fra made me concerned about what appeared to be the risk assessor's offhand approach
00:01:33 assessor's offhand approach to self-closing doors which indicated erroneously that he believed that they were not required i was also concerned by the reliance placed by the risk assessor on conversations apparently had with lfb
00:01:45 on conversations apparently had with lfb personnel
00:01:46 personnel which did not appear to me to accurately reflect the lfb position as i understood it which diverted from the risk assessor's obligation to assess the relevant risk now when you say he had an offhand
00:01:58 now when you say he had an offhand approach to self-closing doors what do you mean by that phrase so that's
00:02:04 that's directly related to his not applicable comment in his risk assessment where it says self closes on fire doors and he's put not applicable
00:02:15 not applicable and how was reliance that he placed on conversations with lfb personnel diverting from his obligation to assess the relevant risk because he was saying that there had
00:02:28 because he was saying that there had been an agreement with the lfb that self-closers were not required if you just have that as a a blanket statement for every door you don't actually look at
00:02:41 every door you don't actually look at the risk that is posed by a particular door not having a self-closer and when you uh sent when you had these concerns did you understand them to be confined to a dare tower or
00:02:52 them to be confined to a dare tower or did you
00:02:53 did you fear that they were a broader application i feared it was a broader application now if we can go to your first witness statement
00:03:01 statement and paragraph 11 which can be found at lfb
00:03:04 lfb triple zero three two double three one forward slash four
00:03:11 now we see the start of paragraph eleven and you also suggest that by the time the bi-monthly meeting on the 5th of january 2016 that quotes and starting the second line
00:03:23 that quotes and starting the second line inspecting officers had brought to my attention that the assessor would in some instances rely on turning over the page inspections carried out by the lfb as justification for his fra would refer
00:03:35 as justification for his fra would refer to meetings held with senior officers within the lfb where agreements were said to have been made without evidence and in one instance had used a lack of fires to justify missing fire doors without
00:03:46 to justify missing fire doors without risk assessing the effect these doors would have if there was to be a fire now when did the inspecting officers bring their concerns to you
00:03:55 it was all around the same time as the adair
00:03:59 adair tower fire so last quarter of 2015. yes and had those concerns been raised previously
00:04:08 not with specific examples being given no
00:04:12 no can you help us as to which inspecting officers raised these concerns with you in the last quarter of 2015. so in particular it was julian steppings and michelle mchugh thank you now could
00:04:25 and michelle mchugh thank you now could i ask you to look at a paragraph from janice rey's first witness statement which can be found at tiermo quadruple zero
00:04:32 zero zero eight nine zero forward slash three two
00:04:43 and if we could look at paragraph 143 in the second line where she said this and i quote there was an assumption made by carl and myself
00:04:52 myself that arrangements at our premises which were not negatively commented on by the lfb following audit were deemed to be satisfactory the lfb knew of this as they requested and received copies of carl stokes's fire
00:05:04 received copies of carl stokes's fire risk assessments which explicitly recorded this assumption now were you aware that the tmo were taking the line that silence or at least the absence of negative comment
00:05:16 negative comment indicated approval
00:05:20 that had been the case from janice ray earlier on in my appointment we we had a a process of issuing broadly compliant letters
00:05:32 compliant letters so she would take that to mean that there weren't any deficiencies within a particular building that we'd inspected and then
00:05:37 and then issued a broadly compliant letter but what i had to explain to her was there would be discussions had on site so an inspection
00:05:48 discussions had on site so an inspection could still be broadly compliant with some deficiencies found depending on the scoring and those conversations would be had directly with her so following that
00:06:00 directly with her so following that conversation what i asked my inspecting officers to do was if they were to send a broadly compliant letter to detail within that letter if they had raised any minor deficiencies
00:06:12 deficiencies after so from 2016 onwards did any of your officers express any other concerns about the competence or the sufficiency of the fire risk assessments carried out by
00:06:23 assessments carried out by carl stokes it was an ongoing conversation i couldn't give exact dates and details now if we can put some flesh on the bones of that if i could ask us to go to
00:06:35 bones of that if i could ask us to go to an
00:06:35 an email which originally was sent by janice ray to you in october 2015 can be found at lfb quadruple zero three four three nine forward slash one
00:06:54 now we see there was some general correspondence but could i ask you to look at the top email which is one you sent to janus ray on the 13th of october 2015 at 10
00:07:05 on the 13th of october 2015 at 10 20 where you raised and you were discussing matters for discussion it's more the approach of the risk assessor it has recently come to my attention that different guidance documents are
00:07:16 that different guidance documents are being applied to the same building the approach should be to use the document which best suits the premises and apply what and apply one and now if i can ask you to hold that email in your mind and turn to your
00:07:28 email in your mind and turn to your second
00:07:28 second witness statement which can be found at lro98
00:07:32 lro98 forward slash eight
00:07:39 you say in paragraph 11 and it's really the fourth line from the end of that paragraph you say this a basic principle within fire safety is that you choose the document that
00:07:50 is that you choose the document that best suits the building in questions and adhere to the recommendations within that document you do not cherry pick parts of different guidance documents that best suit your needs what are the risks if a
00:08:02 needs what are the risks if a responsible person does not obey that basic principle
00:08:09 the risks are that the building would be suitable for the needs of that premises so for example you could have a premises that's built to improve document b which will give you know different
00:08:23 which will give you know different travel distances different types of compartmentation requirements if you if you built it to that but then took your travel distances from double nine double
00:08:35 travel distances from double nine double nine
00:08:36 nine w9 allows for extended travel distances on the provision that you have increased say compartmentation but if you have the
00:08:47 say compartmentation but if you have the compartmentation built to adb and then take the travel distances from double nine double nine you won't have the protection in place for those travel distances um this may be an obvious question but
00:08:59 um this may be an obvious question but would you have expected the reason to be competent for a risk assessor to be aware of the basic principle
00:09:05 principle and the consequences of not adhering to it yes
00:09:09 it yes now we've discussed previously uh before lunch the
00:09:12 lunch the meeting you had on the 13th of november 2015 with janet ray but could we go back to it
00:09:16 to it within the specific context of discussions regarding the competence of carl stokes and if we could stay within this witness statement but go to page 9 and paragraph 16.
00:09:36 to page 9 and paragraph 16. and we see at the end of the fifth line of that paragraph
00:09:41 you say that you were quotes at this meeting very frank and told her that i did not think that he that's carl stokes was providing a good service that kctmo as illustrated by the quality of the fra
00:09:53 as illustrated by the quality of the fra for a dare tower which was mirrored in the fra for its sister tower hazelwood tower close quotes again was the basis of that assessment of mr stokes's
00:10:04 of that assessment of mr stokes's competency based on the issues you'd identified in the aftermath of the adair tower fire it was a combination of conversation so
00:10:15 it was a combination of conversation so in relation to a dare tower there was a ventilation system that was slightly unusual
00:10:22 unusual so you would expect a fire risk assessor to comment on that ventilation system and determine the
00:10:30 the you know how well that system would react in a fire and what consequences that would have um he didn't do that he put reliance on the fact that the lfb
00:10:41 put reliance on the fact that the lfb hadn't previously raised concerns and that the ventilation was
00:10:46 was as built so he didn't risk assess the impact of that system on the building you were frank and direct with miss ray in this meeting regarding the competence of mr stokes what was her response the point she set
00:10:58 what was her response the point she set out before her she raised the fact that nobody had said this to her before you know my predecessors hadn't raised concerns with
00:11:09 concerns with her regarding carl stokes and the inspecting officers hadn't previously raised
00:11:13 raised concerns so she was concerned that why was we now suddenly you know at odds with him what action did you expect her to take in response to the reservations you'd
00:11:25 in response to the reservations you'd expressed
00:11:26 expressed i expected her to go back and take the concerns to carl stokes because i gave
00:11:33 i gave a couple of descriptions of times when i felt he wasn't properly risk assessing premises and to discuss those with him and if there wasn't a change in his approach
00:11:44 if there wasn't a change in his approach then i would have hoped that she would look for somebody else did you make that expectation clear to her in the conversation yes now were you aware of concerns amongst other
00:11:55 were you aware of concerns amongst other members
00:11:55 members of your team about the tmo's approach to fire safety and to give you a particular example matthew ramsey had become concerned that janus reign carl stokes could be quotes economical with the truth
00:12:06 truth in communications with the lfb and if reference is needed we don't need to go to unless you want to that's a met treble zero seven one double zero three
00:12:15 three four three on the third paragraph of that page were you aware of concerns of that nature being expressed by other members of your team i was aware of matt's opinion in general
00:12:27 i was aware of matt's opinion in general relating to janice ray and carl stokes but not that specific did you agree with the his view that either or both of them
00:12:38 his view that either or both of them could be economical with the truth and communications with the lfb i hadn't personally had any communications with carl stokes to base an opinion on but most of my dealings with janice were
00:12:49 but most of my dealings with janice were that she was very open so i didn't have a concern with her at that time thank you now um can i turn to um a conversation that you had with barbara matthews
00:13:00 matthews on the 30th of november 2015 so a month after the adair tower fire and if we could go to tm0080324
00:13:13 and if we could go to tm0080324 forward slash 31.
00:13:24 just while that document's been brought up these are entries from notebooks kept by barbara matthews
00:13:32 matthews and we see here at the top of the left-hand corner telecon rebecca 30th of november 2015. and we can see um further down or immediately below the date drafting two
00:13:44 immediately below the date drafting two enforcement notices at dare and hazelwood it appears that this conversation was with you do you recall it
00:13:51 it yes now if we can look at the content of this note of the call as i say she says drafting two enforcement notices darren hazelwood finalized end of this week slash to get
00:14:04 finalized end of this week slash to get early next week if we go further down it says ventilation systems underneath that on the left hand side you'll see a dare and a square box read across to the right says review fra
00:14:17 read across to the right says review fra it is not suitable and sufficient and below that it says not risk assess ventilation should be giving us ideas on solutions and then if we go slightly further below
00:14:29 and then if we go slightly further below that
00:14:30 that a bullet point which starts with the word when fire occurred and we see various entries here accommodation staircase smoke to travel to each landing flat front doors not working rising butt
00:14:42 front doors not working rising butt hinges risk assessment not including risk fully await scores have come out at high as high as level five leaseholders self-closers are required and take action
00:14:54 required and take action take action being underlined six months for all self-closers now looking at the text of this note it seems that this was a further occasion on which you raised reservations regarding the competency of
00:15:06 reservations regarding the competency of mr stokes
00:15:08 mr stokes is that a fair summary yes it is
00:15:14 after this conversation with miss matthews did you have calls to discuss fras or mr stokes in particular with miss matthews no i believe that was the only contact i
00:15:26 no i believe that was the only contact i had directly with her thank you now if we can turn back to the bi-monthly meeting on the 5th of january 2016 and looking particular on the questions regarding the competence of mr
00:15:37 questions regarding the competence of mr stokes
00:15:38 stokes now um you formally raised at that meeting your concerns about his approach and if we could go to the minutes which are lfb triple zero three two three three zero
00:15:51 triple zero three two three three zero forward slash three and item eight on that page which is the bottom under the heading risk assessments it says this rebecca that you raised her
00:16:02 it says this rebecca that you raised her concern that our fire successor sometimes makes statements which are not justified
00:16:06 justified or supported and that fra reports need to include justification for statements made
00:16:12 made in particular reference to discussion with senior lfb officers must provide names dates and confirmation of outcome of discussions etc and if we turn over to page
00:16:22 to page four and the second line the seconds and the sentence which starts janus agreed to raise these issues with our assessor
00:16:29 assessor but did comment that we have previously provided previous that we have frequently provided copies of fras to the lfb in recent years and until now these have been well received considered to be comprehensive and no
00:16:41 considered to be comprehensive and no criticism
00:16:42 criticism has been fed back now mindful of what's set out there so far as you're aware had janice ray done anything to address the concerns you'd expressed in the meeting of the 13th of november
00:16:53 in the meeting of the 13th of november 2015
00:16:56 2015 not that i'm aware of
00:16:59 [Applause] now if we can turn back to your first witness statement which is a lfb triple zero three two three three one forward slash five
00:17:10 forward slash five and paragraph eleven
00:17:15 and if we look at the end of the fourth line at the top of the page you say this it was my opinion at the time that their fire risk assessor was not providing them with suicide sufficient fire risk assessments and this needed to be addressed
00:17:29 and then was that a fair reflection of your view at the time then yes and when [Applause] looking back at the minutes of the fifth
00:17:41 looking back at the minutes of the fifth of january meeting uh janice ray agreed to raise
00:17:44 to raise the issue with the assessor as we've discussed was any time scale agreed with her
00:17:49 her in which to raise these matters and revert back to you with his response not an agreed time scale no she just said she would speak to him at their next meeting did you ask for a progress update or
00:18:02 did you ask for a progress update or anything more specific pending the next bi-monthly no in my mind again we would pick these issues up through our enforcement action if there was no improvement now can we
00:18:13 if there was no improvement now can we now turn to the bi-monthly meeting on the 4th of march 2016 and again focus on the question of the competence of mr stokes now you've already explained that you didn't
00:18:24 didn't raise the issues regarding self-closers or concerns about the fire risk assessor again
00:18:29 again now given the long-running nature of those concerns about self-closures and the competence of mr stokes why wasn't the meeting on the 4th of march 2016
00:18:41 march 2016 a good opportunity to bring back consideration of those matters before the tmo
00:18:50 i just didn't have it in my mind to do that as
00:18:53 that as from my point of view those matters if there was ongoing issues would be picked up through a regulatory enforcement action and can
00:19:04 a regulatory enforcement action and can we take it therefore that from at least from the lfb perspective absent any prompt for further concerns you didn't raise it in the bi-monthly meetings yes now on the 5th of may 2016 you sent
00:19:18 now on the 5th of may 2016 you sent an email to spencer sutcliffe which we looked at
00:19:21 looked at earlier about the investigation the fire at a dare
00:19:24 at a dare and that email referred to your meeting with janice ray on 13th of november 2015.
00:19:30 2015. um did you think at that stage there had been much progress achieved by the tmo
00:19:38 the tmo in terms of dealing with the competence of carl stokes or did you feel that the absence of any prompts for concerns meant that the no further action was required from you
00:19:51 i didn't think i wasn't given the impression that she was going to take any kind of serious action
00:19:59 but as a enforcer you know we can't dictate who people employ so my only option is to take action through our regulatory activities
00:20:10 through our regulatory activities understood now if we can now turn to an email from janice ray regarding the darren hazelwood towers which was sent on the 19th of september 2016
00:20:20 2016 and for this purpose and to give you some context could we go to your second witness statement which is lfb treble zero eight four zero nine eight forward slash one five
00:20:32 nine eight forward slash one five and look at paragraph 31 now here you refer to an email that you sent to janice ray on the 21st of september 2016 reminding janice ray that the tmo's risk assessor
00:20:44 janice ray that the tmo's risk assessor needed to produce a suitable and sufficient fra and also reminding her that quotes i would not expect to see any references such as agreed with the lfb in relation
00:20:55 such as agreed with the lfb in relation to the ventilation system as we've recommended further investigations via the engineer and risk assessor now why did you feel the need to remind janice ray of those
00:21:06 the need to remind janice ray of those points
00:21:06 points at this time because in his previous risk assessment for a dead tower he had relied upon meetings and conversations
00:21:17 relied upon meetings and conversations with the lfb and i wanted to make sure that in this instance it was clear to her that we had not given any assurances in terms of this premises
00:21:28 terms of this premises and our guidance was that he should carry out a suitable sufficient risk assessment of his own undertaking in conjunction with their fire engineer
00:21:44 fire engineer thank you can we now turn to a separate and distinct topic which is fire safety information provided to residents
00:21:53 what would you what would you have expected a tenant management organization to do when communicating fire safety advice to residents
00:22:01 residents i have best ought to have communicated that information to them so i would expect that to be contained within their tenancy agreement pack normally when you
00:22:12 tenancy agreement pack normally when you take out
00:22:12 take out a tenancy you're given you know a pack of information that relates to your responsibilities in terms of the premises and i would expect you know an evacuation plan to be carried
00:22:23 plan to be carried to be put in with that pack and you know some comment around maintaining any systems in place if they've got detection within their flats or you know fire doors self-closers to
00:22:36 you know fire doors self-closers to explain what action could be taken if those are
00:22:40 those are neglected or mishandled and would you expect
00:22:43 expect updates or reminders to be sent to tenants by the uh the landlord or the landlord's agent i would expect when things change for updates to be
00:22:54 updates to be sent out routinely and
00:22:59 when there's uh incidents such as the adair tower fire or the shepherds caught fire um to use those as a prompt to send out reminders of the importance of these things to residents yes
00:23:09 yes were you ever informed as to the what the tmo were doing to ensure that residents were aware of what to do in the event of a fire yes i was told that there was a monthly newsletter that the tma would
00:23:23 a monthly newsletter that the tma would send out and those kind of updates would be put into that on the basis of what you were told were you satisfied that sufficient arrangements were in place for communicating detail about those arrangements yes
00:23:37 detail about those arrangements yes how would you expect the tmo to communicate fire safety information to residents who spoke a language other than english i would expect them to provide it in the language that the person spoke
00:23:49 language that the person spoke do you recall there being a difference in opinion on uh amongst lfb officers on the value of fitting
00:23:56 fitting um fire action notices within a block that had a stay put fire strategy in place
00:24:05 place there are differences of opinion in that if it's a single means of escape and it's a staple policy you know the residents are to stay
00:24:15 stay put so to speak um and anybody that is in the means of escape only has one way out anyway sorry i've just spilt my water oh do you need some help too yeah sorry
00:24:26 oh do you need some help too yeah sorry don't worry don't worry just just the usher will look after you don't worry these things happen
00:24:40 thanks
00:24:44 thank you all right yes thank you um is is the glass still there do you need to i'll stop fiddling with it now all right thank you um do you recall
00:24:55 all right thank you um do you recall ever advising janice ray on the utility or the effectiveness of fire action nurses it did come up in a couple of conversations um
00:25:06 conversations um because she was of the impression that they weren't required at all what was your view it should be premises specific it's like saying in a simple premises where there's only one
00:25:17 simple premises where there's only one way in and one way out and you know the employees or the residents are aware of what the evacuation policy is then they don't serve much purpose but in
00:25:28 they don't serve much purpose but in complicated premises where or premises where there's two different ways of
00:25:34 ways of leaving or there's only one protected route but an accommodation route then yes i would expect expect signage and five action notices to be included for those purposes would you consider to
00:25:45 for those purposes would you consider to grenfell towers have been complicated or not
00:25:48 not no because it was a single stair premises so there was only one way in and one way out and so in those circumstances you would have thought that fire action notices perhaps have little utility would be your view in those
00:25:59 utility would be your view in those circumstances that's fair
00:26:11 circumstances that's fair following on and staying on this topic in michelle mchugh's audit of grenfell tower in 2016 she identified that there'd been a breach of article 15 1 of the order because of the lack of action notices in the common parts
00:26:23 action notices in the common parts would it be useful if i took you to yesterday so you can see what i'm talking about lfb double zero one zero five four eight nine forward slash seven
00:26:45 and we see there
00:26:48 15-1 procedures for serious danger and for danger areas observations ep is stay put however residents
00:26:59 is stay put however residents interviewed at audits stated they had not been informed of this no fans that's fire action notices displayed in common parts the fra states that fans are not necessary as residents are given pack of
00:27:10 necessary as residents are given pack of information plus there is a regular magazine he does not state how they are made to read this can i take it from your previous answers that you were not aware of that finding
00:27:22 that you were not aware of that finding no
00:27:25 now could we go to lfb treble zero two seven four one seven forward slash seven
00:27:33 seven which is the enforcement notice in respect of a dare
00:27:38 and then we see there under article 15 1
00:27:47 looking at the right hand column adequate procedures for serious and element danger for danger errors should be established and followed this can be achieved by providing adequate fire action notices within the common parts of the premises
00:28:09 and would you agree that like the enforcement notices served in respect of a dare tower which we're looking at at the moment the grenfell tower deficiency notice which again raised the fire action
00:28:21 which again raised the fire action notice point um there's a consistent theme of the lfb requiring farah fire action notices in regulatory enforcement action taken
00:28:33 in regulatory enforcement action taken so in terms of the remedy we offer a remedy it doesn't have to be the only remedy that's put in place so the simplest remedy would be to have fire
00:28:45 simplest remedy would be to have fire action notices in place but it's for the responsible person to decide how they actually comply with that part of the notice so you're suggesting a solution rather than prescribing one yes
00:29:01 looked at slightly differently at this stage so last quarter of 2016 first quarter of 2017 was it the lfb's general practice to require fire action notices
00:29:12 require fire action notices in relation to high-rise residential buildings or did it turn on the complexity of the building it's dependent on the complexity of the building
00:29:21 building now miss mccue's audit also identified a failure to communicate the emergency plan to residents um but it seems as if the the notice of deficiencies and response focused on
00:29:33 of deficiencies and response focused on the provision of fire action notices um pushing this bluntly did the focus on fire action notices mean that both you and your team were
00:29:45 that both you and your team were ignoring
00:29:46 ignoring uh the absence of a formal record of the full emergency plan no i wouldn't say we was ignoring that
00:29:58 no i wouldn't say we was ignoring that um obviously the information we're provided by through the risk assessment and from janice ray was that that information was supplied within the tenancy pack when people
00:30:10 tenancy pack when people first take up occupancy within their buildings and it's reminded through their their newsletters so that is a different way of complying
00:30:21 so that is a different way of complying with
00:30:22 with you know instead of having a fire action notice
00:30:26 notice would you have looked at the broader picture of what emergency planning the tmo had carried out when the when the audits have been carried out
00:30:37 the audits have been carried out so we would look at what the evacuation strategy is for that building which in purpose-built blocks of flats at that time was usually stay put and we would look
00:30:50 stay put and we would look for confirmation as to why it was either staple or a simultaneous evacuation
00:30:58 now can i turn to a separate topic which is that of vulnerable resonance which is linked to what we've now been discussing what if any assurances were you given that the tmo had a system in place for identifying vulnerable residents
00:31:10 identifying vulnerable residents and planning for their needs in the event of a fire so i had been told by janice ray that people could self-refer themselves to her
00:31:21 her to have a a peeps put in place if they felt they needed one and that also she could receive referrals from the housing teams did she tell you or did you ask how many
00:31:32 did she tell you or did you ask how many people had self-referred or been referred by the housing department for peeps no
00:31:39 did you or any of your officers have cause to check whether the system of self-referral or housing department referral
00:31:46 referral was working efficiently and effectively no
00:31:51 what information was provided to the lfb by the tmo about the needs of vulnerable residents thinking particularly of high-rise buildings
00:32:01 buildings high-rise buildings if they're general needs it's it's very difficult to have personal evacuation plans in place you know a general needs block is exactly that it's
00:32:13 is exactly that it's general for the population so unless it's a
00:32:19 you know a day-to-day managed block with say a concierge or on-site caretakers there wouldn't actually be anybody to manage a personal evacuation plan so the advice that i give is if
00:32:31 plan so the advice that i give is if you're
00:32:32 you're made aware that there's a person in a high-rise
00:32:36 high-rise in a general needs block that may need special assistance it's the risk assessor should assess that risk so for example if it's a person that's immobile
00:32:47 immobile they would need to consider you know a personal suppression system because that person's not able to evacuate were you were you ever given any information or did you ever ask for any information
00:32:58 information on what systems the tmo had in place for gathering information to identify vulnerable residents and how best to help them in the event of a fire so again i was informed that when
00:33:11 so again i was informed that when people first take up residency they are asked those kind of questions by the housing team and if any vulnerabilities are brought up
00:33:19 up at that point then they are referred now do you recall me attending a meeting on the 13th of july 2016 uh concerning specialized housing yes
00:33:32 uh concerning specialized housing yes and may help if we go to the minute on this lfb
00:33:37 this lfb zero three two three three five forward slash
00:33:40 slash one and it's item two point two
00:33:46 and there we go with regard to the ellipse communication on specialized housing janice confirmed that a meeting had been arranged with michael jewebry and michelle brown from the lfb policy team for that afternoon and the rebecca would also be in tenants hashtag the tmos head of housing support
00:33:59 hashtag the tmos head of housing support services and amanda johnson from rbkc will also be present now would it help if i took you to the letter which prompted these matters so you could recall it i'm familiar with that letter
00:34:11 familiar with that letter now do you recall whether the issue of peeps was discussed in that meeting yes it was the main focus for that meeting and was the focus on
00:34:22 on specialized housing i.e sheltered accommodation yes was there any discussion of the role of peeps in general housing no this is specifically relating to
00:34:33 no this is specifically relating to housing that has an element of care did you understand that the tmod agreed to put in place peeps for all vulnerable residents regardless of the nature of housing in which they lived
00:34:47 no
00:34:52 were you given any information in the context of specialized housing as to who would be preparing the peeps for specialized housing they they had housing
00:35:03 housing managers and it would be those that would be responsible for conducting them thank you right if i can now turn to uh the final topic that i'd like to
00:35:15 uh the final topic that i'd like to discuss with you today and that's cladding and the scope of the 2005 order now on the 6th of april 2017 assistant commissioner dan daly sent a letter to laura johnson rbkc
00:35:27 letter to laura johnson rbkc concerning the external fire spread on tall buildings following the fire at shepherd's court on the 19th of august 2016. i'm assuming you're familiar with that letter would you like me to pretend i'm familiar with it no um
00:35:40 pretend i'm familiar with it no um so that everyone else can see what we're discussing could i have put up on the screen rbk trouble zero two six trouble eight and in particular can we go to page two in the final
00:35:52 can we go to page two in the final paragraph of that letter
00:35:56 this is something with which we're all now familiar uh assistant commissioner daley said this i would therefore strongly urge that you consider this issue
00:36:07 as part of the risk assessment process for premises under your control i suggest that you make sure all relevant information about any replacement window and facade schemes is fully available to fire risk assessors
00:36:18 assessors where no reliable information is available for a given property is our general expectation that a strategy to assess the risk and when necessary implement short medium and long-term actions to address the risk
00:36:29 risk this assessment will need to take account of other fire safety measures already in place in the building as well as potential mitigation measures to ensure
00:36:36 ensure that any potential fire spread does not pose a risk to health and safety now did you discuss with anyone in the tmo dan daley's view that information about replacement window facades needed to be considered
00:36:47 window facades needed to be considered within fire risk assessments
00:36:52 yes with whom did you have those discussions jealous and when it would have been shortly following the issue of this letter
00:37:02 letter because she was very interested in that actual fire and what action did she say she'd take following those discussions with you about this letter again just that she would discuss it with her
00:37:14 would discuss it with her risk assessor and did you hear anything back from her no what's the approach that is set out in the final paragraph of dan daley's letter did that represent
00:37:26 represent a new approach or was it a timely restatement of existing lfe policy it's a clarification really because the
00:37:38 it's a clarification really because the order doesn't apply to it didn't apply to the cladding um it's more a reminder that a a fire risk assessor is there to assess the risk not to assess compliance
00:37:51 assess the risk not to assess compliance with the order because fire risk assessments you know they come under health and safety as well as you know the rro so it's a reminder that although for the
00:38:03 so it's a reminder that although for the nfb we couldn't enforce on cladding it's still an important part of the fire risk as has been set as job to assess the fire risk of the whole
00:38:13 the whole building not just particular parts of it to take a holistic view in summary now before dan daly's letter was sent out to the london borough councils
00:38:23 councils had you instructed your inspecting officers to consider whether fras included an assessment of whether replacement windows or facades cladding systems posed a risk of fire
00:38:34 if they impacted the means of escape and did you give that instruction yes now if we can just stay with this letter but go back to page 1
00:38:45 but go back to page 1 and the final paragraph on that page and it says in light of the fires that have occurred i would urge you to consider carefully your arrangements for specifying monitoring and approving all aspects of future replacement and
00:38:57 aspects of future replacement and improvement to building facades and construction of new buildings which you are responsible contracts for the provision and installation of replacement elements of building facades including installation replacement double glazing and
00:39:10 replacement double glazing and associated spandrel and infill panels must ensure compliance with all parts of part b if they are to secure public safety
00:39:17 safety and minimize fire losses did the lfb's approach to statutory consultations with building control i think they're called d jobs aren't they yes um did they change following
00:39:27 following the shepherds caught fire
00:39:30 guidance was issued to ensure that we pay closer attention to them so is that was it a an
00:39:41 is that was it a an urge to play greater attention to it or was there a substantive change in policy i'd say a change in policy thank you now miss burton i've come to the end of
00:39:52 now miss burton i've come to the end of the questions i was going to ask you it's customary um for the chairman to allow me some time to see whether i've missed anything out to see whether there's anything further to ask
00:40:02 to ask and so might have the the usual yes of course well miss burton as uh mr canoes said at this point he thinks he's asked all the questions he needs to ask but sometimes it turns out that
00:40:13 out that there are things that still remain to be asked and there are other people following the proceedings who may want to raise questions as well so we'll have a short break i think 10 minutes always be enough at this stage it ought to be enough sir i think it is
00:40:25 it ought to be enough sir i think it is yes um we will break now and we'll come back at 10 to 3 please okay and at that point we'll see whether there are any more questions for you thank you and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence when you're
00:40:36 anyone about your evidence when you're out of the room yes all right thank you very much
00:40:45 sir before you rise may i make a contingent or a preemptive application we anticipate that mr comrie's examination will take 90 minutes or so
00:40:57 90 minutes or so yes if we strayed slightly beyond half four
00:41:00 four may make an application that we sit slightly less later than would be normal simply to allow us to get mr conrad's evidence finished today well it would obviously be good if we could finish his evidence
00:41:11 be good if we could finish his evidence um should we see how we're going um and how much beyond how fast forward that would require thanks sir all right thank you very much um 10-3 please
00:52:34 yes would you ask this person to come back in please
00:52:48 we'll see if there are any more questions so i have no further questions um
00:52:52 um for miss burton uh so it only leaves me to thank her for attending today to give evidence it's much appreciated yes well i certainly want to thank you as well on behalf of all three members of the panel for coming
00:53:04 three members of the panel for coming along to give your evidence it's not been as long as it has been for some people which for which you are no doubt
00:53:09 doubt grateful yes but it's been very helpful to us and
00:53:12 to us and we're very grateful to you for coming along so thank you very much indeed and now you are free to go thank you very much thank you
00:53:30 and we have another witness uh waiting in the wings we do to be taken by miss jones but we need to have a short break while we prepare for that witness um
00:53:42 prepare for that witness um it's quite early to have an afternoon break but i think it would be sensible if our shorthand writer and documents manager don't mind the idea of running through for a
00:53:53 the idea of running through for a slightly extended period afterwards that we take one break now and combine it with the usual afternoon break thanks sir in
00:54:04 the usual afternoon break thanks sir in which case if i said ten past three i'm looking at that clock not that one because i can't really see that one terribly and they're out of sync as well and they are but that's why i say one has to choose one's clock carefully um
00:54:16 has to choose one's clock carefully um if i say ten past three then we'll go straight through after that thank you sir and we'll hope to finish mr comray by half past four if there are still questions waiting to
00:54:27 if there are still questions waiting to be asked we'll be lenient but i think we need to bear in mind that for everyone even if you've only been waiting to give evidence it becomes quite a long day so
00:54:40 it becomes quite a long day so sir with that encouragement rise now and say 10 past three thank you very much
01:12:18 yes it's jones now you're going to call the next witness is that right yes thank you mr chairman i'd like to call nicholas comery please thank you very
01:12:34 much good afternoon mr comrade good afternoon sir
01:12:39 sir i understand that you would like to make the affirmation yes please would you then please uh read the words on the screen in front of you i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare
01:12:49 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
01:12:57 truth thank you very much now do sit down please make yourself comfortable
01:13:13 right when you're ready for this james thank you thank you very much mr comray thank you very much for attending to assist the inquiry with your evidence my questions this afternoon are intended to be short and simple
01:13:24 to be short and simple but if you do have any difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you please do just ask me to repeat or rephrase the question and if you do need a break at any point please just let me know and also if you
01:13:36 please just let me know and also if you wouldn't mind keeping your voice up so our soccer sonographer on your right can hear you
01:13:40 hear you right now you've made four statements in relation to the fire at grenfell tower to this inquiry um if i can ask to bring up your first statement which is dated the 28th of january 2019
01:13:52 january 2019 and that's at lfb3032144
01:13:58 is that your statement there it is indeed yes and if i can ask the uh trial director to turn to page 19 you should see your signature there is that your signature it is my signature
01:14:10 that your signature it is my signature thank you
01:14:11 thank you your second statement the inquiry inquiries dated the 9th of december 2019 and that's at lfb 3083853
01:14:21 is that your statement there that is my statement thank you and if we could turn to page four please that is my signature that's your signature thank you and you've made two statements to the
01:14:33 and you've made two statements to the metropolitan police the first is dated the 8th of december 2020 we'll find that at met 3077968 do you recognize that as your statement
01:14:46 do you recognize that as your statement yes it is my statement and then um we don't
01:14:49 don't need to scroll through it but on every page we can see that you've signed it electronically we can see at the top of that page there is that right um it says signature and
01:15:00 um it says signature and end commentary yes so when you say electronically it's just um typed in yes and i recognize that that's because i think this will be a type script of something you may have
01:15:11 something you may have written by hand or somebody else may have written by hand so yes i think there are different ways to do electronic signatures nowadays there are that is my name and that is i think i think that'll do thank you very much
01:15:22 think that'll do thank you very much thank you very much and then your second statement of the metropolitan police is also dated the 8th of december 2020. we'll bring that up it's mut 3077969
01:15:33 we'll bring that up it's mut 3077969 and can you confirm that's your statement there that is my statement yes and also n comrade put into the signature box uh yes the only one thing i would bring to
01:15:43 to potentially just notice that they spelt my name nicholas wrong now whether that has you know confirmed is my statement i'm not sure to be honest but i'll just bring that to your attention it looks like my statement but i just
01:15:54 it looks like my statement but i just bring that to someone's attention right am i right it should be spelt without an h without nature and normally i would have corrected that that's one reason i might
01:16:01 might thank you an element of doubt thank you very much can i ask if you had the opportunity to read these statements recently i have and can you confirm that their content contents are true yes and have you
01:16:12 contents are true yes and have you discussed your evidence with anybody before coming here today only with uh my council provided by london fire brigade in preparing uh the the certainly of the fire brigade
01:16:23 uh the the certainly of the fire brigade statements uh the fire brigade council had no involvement in the metropolitan police statements thank you firstly i'd like to ask you about your role at the london fire brigade and your qualifications and
01:16:34 brigade and your qualifications and training if we could please turn up your first statement to the inquiry lfb3032144 and particularly go to page two and then three
01:16:45 two and then three if we could have page three on the screen i'll just briefly run you what run through what you say there and
01:16:51 there and is it on page three did you say page three yes
01:16:55 three yes there we are there we go that's right that's excellent thank you and is it right that you were initially the team leader of the hammersmith and fulham and richmond fire safety team yes and when did you take up that post
01:17:08 yes and when did you take up that post i took that up i was made team leader it says in december 1997 and i think that was
01:17:14 was for for that team thank you and then you became the sole team leader of the hammersmith and fulham and kensington and chelsea fire safety team on the 1st of april 2012 when it merged
01:17:26 on the 1st of april 2012 when it merged is that right that is correct and you were the team leader for that team until your retirement on the 31st of march 2014
01:17:33 2014 is that right that's right and at the same time as you were team leader you were also an operational firefighter i was yes and after your retirement in march 2014
01:17:45 march 2014 you then rejoined the lfb as a non-operational staff member in the development support fire safety regulation team at the lfb's headquarters for a further two years to assist with developing implementing an induction course
01:17:57 implementing an induction course for team leaders joining fire safety is that there was a few months gap between the two periods of employment but that's great thank you and then since that date so i guess mid 2016 you've been retired is that right
01:18:08 that right yes thank you and at paragraph 16 of your statement on page six please
01:18:17 thank you you set out there your primary responsibilities as team leader which if i can summarize what you say there you say included managing and supporting your team of fire safety inspecting officers which
01:18:28 of fire safety inspecting officers which included ensuring they were adequately trained and vetting and monitoring their audits of premises is that right that is correct thank you in respect of your training and qualifications
01:18:39 your training and qualifications did you receive training for the team leader role when you were promoted no did you feel that you needed any specific training to carry out your role as team leader
01:18:50 as team leader uh no i had been inspecting officer for a number of years and uh but the team leader role is different
01:18:56 different i i got promoted as a team leader and i think it's fair to say you learned as you went along there was nothing specific in those days it was a while ago
01:19:06 ago but i did it for quite a long time yes i understood were you familiar with the local government association's guide published in july 2011 entitled fire safety in purpose built blocks of flats
01:19:17 blocks of flats yes and did you receive training training on its detailed requirements uh i i had a brief introduction from i think it's mr colin todd's team at brigade headquarters i think it was a
01:19:29 at brigade headquarters i think it was a day training that was and did you yourself provide any training on that guide to your inspecting officers and your team
01:19:36 your team um i highlighted key points to the team it's it's a long document it's not something i would have gone through
01:19:44 through in every single detail but key point certainly thank you and in respect to the lga guide is that something that you would expect responsible persons to be familiar with uh when they are
01:19:56 to be familiar with uh when they are managing
01:19:57 managing um particularly high risk purpose but blocks of flats if it was appropriate according to the guide it was a category of premises yes yes and the same would apply to fire risk assessors with it
01:20:07 with it yes yes thank you and now i'd like to ask you what you set out at paragraphs 28 to 31 of your statement if we could please look at page nine
01:20:22 and you say uh there and again i'll summarize it is that when you took over as team leader of the kensington and chelsea fire safety team on the first of april 2012. you took over from dave green
01:20:34 over from dave green is that right yes and did he provide you with a handover at that point in time um an introduction so i certainly met him beforehand and as you'll see here we're attending a
01:20:45 you'll see here we're attending a meeting
01:20:46 meeting with the tmo together and i knew dave uh previously and i i would have got a basic introduction i don't remember the details of it to be honest but i i wouldn't be giving the handover yes i
01:20:58 wouldn't be giving the handover yes i did meet him personally and you say you would have um you had a meeting with the tmo with dave green do you recall who from the tmo was at that meeting uh it is in the the the the document here
01:21:10 it is in the the the the document here um
01:21:10 um certainly janice ray was there the other names i'm afraid i need to see from the document that's fine i'll take you to that thank you and just at this point can you give us
01:21:21 and just at this point can you give us an overview of when you took over the role as team leader for the uh particular kensington and chelsea fire safety team and what were you told about the tmos fire risk assessment process that they
01:21:32 fire risk assessment process that they had put in place by that point um as i said i i i don't recall specific details of it i was aware that they had um
01:21:45 i was aware that they had um there had been discussions about time scales
01:21:48 scales and priorities in according with risk i could not recall total details i have seen documents since which has helped refresh my memory
01:22:00 since which has helped refresh my memory but uh as i said that was some considerable time ago now yes well we can take you to some of those no doubt um can you recall and you say if you can't anything that you were told at that handover with dave green about the flat entrance door
01:22:12 green about the flat entrance door replacement program no nothing at all no anything about the tmos fire risk assessor carl stokes um there was mention of mr stokes
01:22:23 um there was mention of mr stokes i think it was an element of warning that he was prepared to challenge the brigade and now
01:22:34 challenge the brigade and now i don't remember details and i i certainly
01:22:37 certainly take as i find but uh i there was an element of warning from dave green with regard to mr stokes when i joined uh
01:22:46 uh the the when the two teams became one team and i took over as team leader yes and do you recall in your handover with dave green were you told anything specifically about grenfell tower no thank you looking at paragraph 28 of
01:23:00 no thank you looking at paragraph 28 of your statement which is on your screen there
01:23:03 there and you explained that you attended bi-monthly meetings with representatives of the kct mo principally janice ray and with one of your own team suhail dada boy
01:23:13 dada boy do you recall attending those meetings and we'll go through the minutes shortly yes i do recall and does it right that they started off as quarterly meetings with the tmo and then moved by monthly meetings
01:23:25 monthly meetings i don't recall that change to be honest as far as i'm aware they're always bi-monthly right um halfway down paragraph 28 you say
01:23:33 say i attended to emphasize the importance placed by myself on the working relationship between lfb and kctmo
01:23:40 and kctmo and to help ensure that positive progress was maintained and the phrase that you've put there ensure that positive progress was maintained may suggest that improvements by the tmo
01:23:51 may suggest that improvements by the tmo were required would that be fair uh no um i i placed no emphasis on that myself i think that my attending was because i was a hands-on team leader
01:24:03 was a hands-on team leader i think you need to demonstrate that and but i recognize that the tmo was a large provider of housing which would include vulnerable people and if we could reduce
01:24:14 vulnerable people and if we could reduce risk or ensure that the regulatory reform order has been followed in their premises it would be a very positive thing with regard to the two boroughs i was responsible with
01:24:25 boroughs i was responsible with and when you speak about progress needing to be maintained was there anything
01:24:28 anything that you had particularly in mind when you were drafting that that you thought i had the experience with housing forum over a number of years and in my experience progress was not necessarily fast i likened it to a
01:24:41 necessarily fast i likened it to a trying the tractor grinding on in first gear
01:24:44 gear it is not dramatic um improvement it takes time it takes effort and you need to turn up and you need to maintain progress so
01:24:55 and you need to maintain progress so now you've mentioned that point thinking it through and what i just said i think it reflected my experience with hamilton fulham without pre-judging kensington and chelsea yes thank you and
01:25:07 kensington and chelsea yes thank you and turning over the page if we could please to paragraph 31 of your statement
01:25:14 you say at the beginning there in between our programmed face-to-face meetings
01:25:18 meetings suhail dadaboy other team members and i would be in regular contact with kctmo largely via janus ray who is our main contact to deal with fire safety issues as they occurred following audits of kctmo premises to
01:25:31 following audits of kctmo premises to discuss any fire safety notices that were being prepared for kctmo premises and to agree time scales to resolve fire safety issues highlighted and to discuss any fires in kctmo premises
01:25:42 any fires in kctmo premises and just pausing there if i may how often were you and your team in contact with janice ray do you think
01:25:52 as i said i did not necessarily in such regular context so i was not necessarily in
01:25:57 in frequent contact with miss ray team members it would vary depending on their responsibilities and what work they were undertaking um as i said uh matthew ramsey for
01:26:09 um as i said uh matthew ramsey for example with regard to high-rise premises may have more contact it depended on the type of work and um where we were with regard to
01:26:21 and um where we were with regard to those premises what issues we found certainly
01:26:24 certainly um i was team leader for kesley chelsea for two years and that time we issued notifications deficiencies but not not a great number and and so
01:26:37 and and so the key contact would have been that by a monthly meeting right understood thank you in the final sentence of paragraph 31 you say um there i did not necessarily lead on such regular contact as you've
01:26:48 lead on such regular contact as you've just told us just now with janice ray but did ask my team members to keep me informed of matters disgust
01:26:54 disgust and can i ask how did your team brief you on matters they discussed with janice ray i've got no i can remember no particular details
01:27:03 details it's just that if um it's just they they basically were a big source of housing in the area so it's important i kept my finger on the pulse about how things were doing
01:27:15 about how things were doing um partly because as i say i was hands-on
01:27:18 hands-on and i recognized it with reduced risk in the in the borough and also because i had to report to more senior officers and you wanted to have your finger on the pulse you were the team leader and not necessarily
01:27:29 not necessarily doing all the work but you were responsible and accountable and you had to report upwards
01:27:36 upwards would you have regular interaction with your team about any interactions they had had with we would have regular team meetings where there would be a sharing of information as well as training and also informal meetings on other
01:27:48 and also informal meetings on other matters thank you now during your tenure as team leader of the kensington chelsea fire safety team did you have a considered view on who the responsible person was for the
01:27:59 the responsible person was for the purposes of the regulatory reform fire safety order in respect of the properties that were owned by rbkc and managed by the tmo um if you refer to the
01:28:10 um if you refer to the the notification deficiencies notices that we issued i i would have vetted those i believe they went to they should have gone to the company secretary at the of the tmos it's a
01:28:21 secretary at the of the tmos it's a limited company and they should they were copied into janice ray and this is how i was led to believe we should issue notices
01:28:30 notices uh keeping the the person who has day-to-day management um responsibility in the loop at all times but at the same time addressing the notice to the appropriate person with regard to legal compliance
01:28:43 person with regard to legal compliance yes thank you if i can take you to um minutes of a meeting it's
01:28:54 lfb403451
01:28:58 so that's a meeting on the 21st of june 2012.
01:29:02 2012. uh as the attendees you're listed there with janice ray and coletohara who i believe was one of your inspecting officers yes and then
01:29:09 then if we can look down to page three please
01:29:18 yes thank you the first bullet point there it says that janna's confirmed whilst any notice should be sent to chief executives of both rbkc and the tmo
01:29:29 both rbkc and the tmo however she is the appointed contact for day-to-day and operational questions does that fairly summarize your understanding of who the responsible person was and who
01:29:40 who the responsible person was and who you should send notices to when you were team leader by what i've just said it would appear not
01:29:49 not um as i said the proof frankly this is some time after the proof would be in any notice that was issued to the tmo because i would have vetted that
01:30:00 because i would have vetted that or i would have had a look at it and be aware of it i would have discussed with the team and the team meeting who to send the notices to so as i say that leaves my belief as i stated if it
01:30:12 that leaves my belief as i stated if it proves to be wrong then i apologize but to the best of my belief that that is where it should be as i stated initially and just to clarify that means not sending the notices to rbkc
01:30:23 sending the notices to rbkc only sending them to the tmo yes okay thank you
01:30:26 thank you um can i just take you to one further meeting on this point it's at
01:30:32 lfb403450
01:30:37 it's a meeting on the 16th of october 2012 again you're listed as present with janice ray suhel dada boy and coletta hara
01:30:44 hara and if we can look at page two please
01:30:53 yes thank you if we could just zoom in and under the title letters regarding deficiencies identified there the first line under that heading nc confirmed that all letters sent to
01:31:04 nc confirmed that all letters sent to the tmo should be sent to the tmo chief executive and a copy cc to janice ray or that it should be sent to 300 kensal road um
01:31:12 road um does that perhaps more fairly summarize your understanding of where the notices should be sent to at that time yes yes because it's as i said initially thank you yes thank you do you know why you
01:31:24 thank you do you know why you particularly asked for clarification in this meeting later on in the year in 2012 um it the bottom line is any notice has to be sent to the right people
01:31:35 be sent to the right people to be enforceable and you need to get it right
01:31:38 right so it's i
01:31:42 so it's i as ever would rely on headquarters and policy documents to get the right notice to the right people that was my job and so you know certainly enforcement notices i visited everyone
01:31:53 notices i visited everyone if i was on duty yes thank you
01:31:56 thank you thank you um can i turn back to then the 21st june 2012 meeting with the tmo that's lfb403451
01:32:08 and again on page three please in the same section we just looked at second bullet point it says that janus advised it is her responsibility to instigate and coordinate actions
01:32:21 to instigate and coordinate actions required by the fra significant findings janice advised t.l comrie that each fra is accompanied by an action plan where each recommendation is colour-coded red amber green to reflect their degree of priority and
01:32:33 to reflect their degree of priority and therefore the time scale can't ask did janice ray tell you anything at this meeting about the tmo's progress with completion of fra actions
01:32:46 could you just give me the date of that meeting again of course it's the 21st of june 2012 so not long after
01:32:53 after you've been in post and could you repeat the question again sorry of course so in that second bullet point we see janet ray explaining to you the fra action process and my question is
01:33:06 fra action process and my question is when she was explaining about fra actions to you did she also explain anything to you about the tmo's progress with completion of fra actions i don't
01:33:18 with completion of fra actions i don't recall at this time thank you and then if i could ask that we go back to the 16th of october 2012 minute which we just looked at earlier lfb403450
01:33:32 and thank you very much it's under the heading trellic tower starting with sentence that says doors it says doors jw advised that common doors are still under guarantee with the contractor
01:33:43 contractor therefore if there is a fault the contract will come out and fix it she stated that the on-site caretaker does a walk-around and reports all doors which do not close appropriately
01:33:54 which do not close appropriately the last time jw reviewed this all doors the caretaker had identified were on her list also
01:34:01 list also tmo have a procedure in place to address the door which is reported as being deficient
01:34:05 deficient nc suggested to review the time scales to get works carried out to make sure the tmo are confident that depending on the location and risk that the door it is repaired with an appropriate level of urgency can you help us with
01:34:18 urgency can you help us with whether you recall if that was a discussion about lobby doors flat entrance doors or both
01:34:31 flat entrance doors or both not at this time i i i can't to be honest
01:34:36 honest sorry i don't mean to cut across you no um
01:34:40 um sorry just repeat starts at doors advise that the common doors are still under guarantee
01:34:48 now common doors is not a phrase that um i find particularly descriptive to be honest
01:34:55 honest and i have no recall of seeing these minutes
01:34:59 minutes yes at any recent time uh and i'd take it if i
01:35:02 it if i was to ask you anything else it probably you wouldn't be able to help us with your memory recall about what happened at that meeting um could you just repeat the date of that meeting yes of course it's the 16th of october 2012.
01:35:14 of october 2012. uh no i haven't seen minutes of this and the copious paper i've been provided no if i could just ask one further question see if there's anything you can help us with it's at the bottom of that page if we could just scroll down
01:35:28 page if we could just scroll down that's under the heading general update um coh kaletahara asked janice ray for a general overview update on the tmo council's entire stock what is the current situation and how
01:35:39 what is the current situation and how are they proposing to maintain the standards
01:35:42 standards so that deficiencies are addressed and then the action there is jw agreed she would provide an update advising the lfb of the most current situation and
01:35:53 of the most current situation and again appreciate what you say about not having seen these minutes but do you recall at this meeting in october 2012 whether there was a discussion there about outstanding fra actions
01:36:04 outstanding fra actions i don't recall no thank you [Applause] and moving then to a meeting that took place on the 1st of july 2013 please um it's at tmo 1000 3009
01:36:25 um it's at tmo 1000 3009 thank you very much uh mr cameron you'll see there it's a quarterly meeting first of july 2013 uh present you're listed with steve cunningham and janice ray and sue hall dada boys had to make
01:36:36 ray and sue hall dada boys had to make his apologies and what i would like to ask you about starts at the bottom of page two if we could go there please
01:36:45 so the heading is fra fra issues and then the point i'd like to ask you about is a continuation of that topic on page three
01:36:56 it says there it's highlighted in red for reasons unknown to myself it says nick requested that the significant findings of fire risk assessments should be made available for auditing
01:37:07 should be made available for auditing purposes by lfb and that janus provide an update on the current list of outstanding significant findings
01:37:13 findings from fire risk assessments and their proposed completion dates nick expressed particular interest in any unresolved instances of compartment issues and state premises before i delve into questions
01:37:25 premises before i delve into questions on these minutes do you recall this meeting or seeing these minutes
01:37:30 minutes not in any great degree to be honest it sounds
01:37:33 sounds like me based on my experience in hammersmith and fulham focusing on high-rise and compartment issues which led to the issue with a number of enforcement nurses yes thank you and just um taking a step
01:37:46 yes thank you and just um taking a step back
01:37:46 back from looking at the first part of that paragraph you're requesting that janice ray provide you with an update on the current list of outstanding significant findings from fire risk assessments and their
01:37:58 from fire risk assessments and their proposed completion dates do you recall why particularly that meeting in july 2013 you were asking janice ray for this update
01:38:19 i think it's just best practice and um i'm not sure is any seems significant beyond that
01:38:30 seems significant beyond that it was could you just repeat the date again of a meeting yes of course first of july 2013. yeah it was um still relatively early i suppose
01:38:40 suppose and um it's a sort of information that should be provided and is useful to analyze
01:38:47 analyze to measure progress and that was something that you saw your team had a role in with the tmo completing fra actions is it yes and why is that well we were
01:38:59 yes and why is that well we were monitoring uh progress we were seeing how they were doing with regard to meeting the requirements of a regulatory reform order and just coming back to something you
01:39:10 and just coming back to something you said earlier you focused um after a bit at this paragraph on the fact that you had particularly asked about compartment issues and stay put premises
01:39:19 premises can you just help us with why is you were focusing on those issues in particular uh yes uh as i said before i believe it's based on my experience in howard smith
01:39:30 based on my experience in howard smith and fulham it was we worked for a considerable time handsome fulham and and discovered that there were issues with compound but they're making basically making holes in walls
01:39:42 basically making holes in walls in stay put premises that's one thing you can't do with stay put premises and as well as making sure that the doors are all solid and self-closing we over a period of time we discovered
01:39:54 we over a period of time we discovered evidence that there were issues here and through a process of increasing enforcement activity with matthew ramsey leading
01:40:05 matthew ramsey leading we issued a series of enforcement notices
01:40:08 notices which produced very positive results but they were
01:40:12 they were necessary to be issued and so uh it was recognizing the risk in stay put premises and if through experience in
01:40:20 in hammersmith and fulham yes understood and
01:40:23 and was your request here in this meeting was it
01:40:27 was it as far as you can recall now anyway born out of any um particular concern that you had about the tmo's progress with completing fra actions
01:40:40 um i no i had no uh at that time i had no belief and that there were particular concerns well based on the information i had
01:40:52 well based on the information i had received i certainly had no particular concerns we no thank you and if it's right to say that had there been issues with the tmo being
01:41:03 had there been issues with the tmo being able to complete outstanding fra actions so not being able to complete them within the time scales
01:41:09 scales it it sounds like from your evidence that's something that you would have expected janice ray to feed back to you or your team members i would expect that we were aiming for a positive
01:41:18 positive working relationship the first portico was not necessarily enforcement those decisions
01:41:23 decisions yes thank you and do you recall if after this meeting you did receive that update from janice ray that you'd asked for i don't recall at this time
01:41:35 throughout your tenure as team leader so up until
01:41:39 up until you left the team in end of march 2014 do you recall janice ray ever explaining to you
01:41:46 to you or one of your team members that they had a backlog in completing fra actions i have no recall of her saying that though and just um to give you two specific examples
01:41:58 examples were you aware throughout 2012 and i've taken you through the minutes that we have from your meetings but were you aware from janice ray or through your team members that there was a significant number of
01:42:10 that there was a significant number of outstanding fra actions um i have no recall of that fact though and where you were aware um in around 21 march 2014 so about 10 days before you
01:42:24 march 2014 so about 10 days before you retired from the team um that the tmo had identified 1400 actions that were outstanding no i've got no record of it absolutely not thank you
01:42:35 moving then to the topic of flat entrance doors if i may
01:42:41 you recall in your statement i don't think i need to take you to it unless you'd like me to and that you attended a meeting on the 8th of november 2012 between the rbkc tmo and lfb you seem
01:42:52 between the rbkc tmo and lfb you seem familiar with it yes yes thank you and do you recall that the main purpose of the meeting was to discuss who had responsibility for for enforcing against leaseholders whose flat entrance doors were not
01:43:04 whose flat entrance doors were not compliant with fire safety standards yes if i can take you to paragraph seven of your
01:43:10 of your second statement to the inquiry that's
01:43:14 lfb3083853
01:43:17 and page two thank you very much you say there that your role at the meeting was to bring factual examples of what issues i had encountered with regard to flat front doors in my boroughs
01:43:29 flat front doors in my boroughs and you say i could not be more specific about the factual examples i raise owing to the passage of time and the fact i do not have notes to aid my memory of that meeting
01:43:37 meeting and mindful of what you say in that paragraph can you recall anything even the gist
01:43:41 the gist of what the issues were that you were encountering with flat entrance doors at that time um the key issue was who was
01:43:53 the key issue was who was going to enforce with regard to leasehold the front doors which were not which were discovered to be in certain cases not of an appropriate fire rating
01:44:04 um so um as i said the discussion was as i said right from the very beginning with uh kensington and chelsea that very first meeting before i even became team
01:44:16 first meeting before i even became team leader when i was with dave green there was discussion at that particular meeting and i again had been through a similar sort of situation with hammersmith and fulham so that was the only reason i was not
01:44:28 so that was the only reason i was not planning to have great discussions i was planning to meet people but because i had experience of housing for them that's why i made some comment at that meeting because only because i'd
01:44:40 at that meeting because only because i'd had
01:44:41 had discussions with regard to that with andy jack
01:44:44 andy jack that they had the first fire station enforcement headquarters um i was always very clear that it was not my job to make policy was to follow policy
01:44:53 policy and that was the role of mr j yes understood and so um
01:45:00 as i say um with regard to the factual examples i have slightly better knowledge now in the sense i've i've seen a statement for mr jack who gives a
01:45:11 gives a an accurate well a detailed comment about that particular meeting and the examples i brought which i do recognize now was of doors self-closing doors which were not fully
01:45:22 self-closing doors which were not fully self-closing because of the effect of wind
01:45:24 wind with high-rise buildings which i had experienced in a visit uh an audit with an inspecting officer
01:45:32 officer and the second case was of perk herself closes which if it had been removed and there would be an element of missing um content to a fire door
01:45:42 fire door so even if you remove and replace them it's still potentially an area of weakness
01:45:46 weakness so i was just trying to give practical examples
01:45:50 examples as opposed to policy yes thank you that's helpful and over the page you say it paragraph nine
01:46:02 you say that i do not recall making any specific comments or any wider discussion about self-closing devices during that meeting it is likely that such discussion took place as this was a key concern on the subject of flat front doors i
01:46:14 on the subject of flat front doors i just
01:46:15 just want to ask you further um maybe you've already given us your answer on this uh just now but why was it a key concern on the subject of flat front doors
01:46:26 on the subject of flat front doors self-closing devices with regards to self-closing devices yes exactly right it's a fundamental fire safety principle um
01:46:34 um i've been in fire safety a long time i occasionally comment the fact that i spent half my life watching fire doors self-close because it's a key part of the role
01:46:46 part of the role and um i've also attended a lot of files not necessarily in charge of them but in various roles including the presideo's office i've seen various fatal fatal fires because of that and fire
01:46:58 fatal fires because of that and fire doors
01:47:00 doors are a key component of keeping people safe
01:47:04 safe and so um yeah so um so could you just repeat the question you might sure have covered it properly i apologize you have answered it thank you thank you
01:47:16 you have answered it thank you thank you um
01:47:17 um in looking at your experience particularly when you were team leader of the
01:47:20 of the of the fire safety teams can you help us with how regularly you would have expected flat entrance doors to be inspected to ensure that they were in efficient working order
01:47:31 working order and that includes a self-closing device it would
01:47:34 it would the starting point is always what it says in the guide the lga guide is that the lj guide if it's a it's a high rise premises
01:47:41 premises yes and that would always be the starting point so so for the responsible person that that would be that's where you would start um as i said we did have discussions about
01:47:53 as i said we did have discussions about you know whether the gas people going to buildings could check things when they're checking the gas equipment there were discussions we tried to find a practical solution to getting the doors checked to make sure
01:48:04 getting the doors checked to make sure the self-closures were there i can't record exact details but it it it was a point of discussion how practically we could a uh checks off closes but also make sure people were
01:48:15 people were vulnerable people were safe within their particular premises yes thank you and if i can take you to a particular meeting um where it looks like there is a discussion had on that topic it's the 13th of march 2013 meeting
01:48:27 13th of march 2013 meeting it's at tmo 1000 2728
01:48:35 thank you and we can see their attendees janice ray yourself and sahel dadaboy and halfway down
01:48:43 down it's item number five it says nick advise that flat front door should meet recommendations of the purpose-built flats guide and should be self-closing where directed are you able to help us first is that
01:48:56 are you able to help us first is that your reference to the lga guide where you talk about the purpose built it is thank you and then do you recall particularly now anything that you discussed with janice ray at that meeting about self-closing
01:49:09 at that meeting about self-closing devices
01:49:11 devices i don't i did the minutes of this meeting it so but uh i don't recall any particular details beyond that frankly but i see the statement thank you very much
01:49:22 much i'd like to now turn to an email which you were copied in on on the 18th of december 2013. that's at lfb403534
01:49:36 as you can see at the top mr comrey it's an email from janice ray to matthew ramsey um you've already mentioned as a fire safety inspecting officer in your team isn't he or was he yes yes
01:49:48 or was he yes yes and then you're copied in there the subject is fire safety elm park house and jans ray is replying to uh matthew ramsey's original email
01:50:00 to uh matthew ramsey's original email and if i can just read out part of the email it says matthew in response to the queries in your original email i would advise as follows
01:50:09 follows and it's item one that i'm interested in it says here it is reassuring to know that you considered the flat entrance doors at this block to be fire resisting i note your concern about self-closing devices and i would
01:50:20 about self-closing devices and i would reiterate our approach to flat entrance doors which as i believe you are aware has been discussed with your colleagues at the lfb consistently over recent years and again at our regular meeting yesterday
01:50:31 regular meeting yesterday specifically in relation to tenant stores are approached as follows when replacement flat entrance tools are fitted they are fire rated and self-closing when properties become void self-closures will be reinstated
01:50:42 self-closures will be reinstated installed as necessary at other times when major work is being undertaken in a dwelling the self-closure will be reinstated if it has been disconnected um firstly do you recall receiving this
01:50:55 um firstly do you recall receiving this email or having a discussion about this particular point no i don't no i've seen the emails since but i don't
01:51:01 don't thank you and and would you agree with me that it suggests here or what janice ray is suggesting here is that self-closers would only be reinstated when properties became void or when major work was being
01:51:12 void or when major work was being undertaken
01:51:15 that's sorry could you beat that question yes of course what it seems that janice ray is saying here is that self-closing devices will only be reinstated as necessary
01:51:28 will only be reinstated as necessary when properties become void or when major work is being undertaken would you agree with that that's not how i read it
01:51:37 i read it and how how did you read it um i was positive about her approach to uh the three areas where she says there will be a focus on self-closers
01:51:49 will be a focus on self-closers but as you saw in that previous minutes it does not preclude um does not necessarily approve the fact that self-closers can be ignored in every other situation so um i am positive about where they are
01:52:03 so um i am positive about where they are proposing action i would refute strongly any suggestion that there was an agreement that self-closers were not necessary in other situations
01:52:14 situations have you preempted certainly one of my questions um right which i was coming on to but
01:52:18 to but can i just explore with you did you understand from either your discussions with janice at the time or when you received this email that this was the only um maintenance and inspection
01:52:29 and inspection and reinstallation of self-closing devices that the tmo were conducting at this point in time um as i said i don't recall this email
01:52:40 um as i said i don't recall this email and i i don't recall my thinking at the time with regard to this email i can give a comment as i have now which and
01:52:49 and but one thing i am very clear on is the fact that there was no agreement that self-closers were not necessary on fire doors
01:52:59 doors and in respect of maintenance of self-closing devices do you recall there being any agreement with janice ray that um they didn't need to be maintained in accordance with the lga
01:53:10 maintained in accordance with the lga guide
01:53:11 guide no i've got no recollection of any such agreement
01:53:15 agreement no thank you if i can now um ask you about the topic of lifts
01:53:23 of lifts it's if we can go to an email it's
01:53:29 cst402920
01:53:32 and if we can go to page two please
01:53:44 so halfway down that page it might help if we could thank you very much increase the size yes halfway down we see it's an email from you to janice ray on the 17th of may 2012
01:53:55 2012 and you've copied in kalectahara and a number of others at the lfb and you write there janus the station commander at north kensington fire station stephen cunningham
01:54:06 station stephen cunningham is reviewing the firefighting tactics at trellic tower he has raised the following questions and then if you cast your eye down to item three it says uh can they confirm that all three lifts are fire fighting lifts
01:54:19 are fire fighting lifts and then if we can go over to the page to the bottom of the email
01:54:27 and if we could just increase the size of it thank you three lines down reference question three if they are not technically firefighting lifts could it be confirmed that the operational of the firefighter's switch
01:54:39 operational of the firefighter's switch means that the lifts are controlled from the buttons inside the lifts and that they have a backup power supply thank you very much nick and what do you mean if you can recall for us and by
01:54:51 mean if you can recall for us and by saying
01:54:51 saying technically firefighting lifts as i say i i don't recall this email but but um
01:54:58 but um i know the brigade made a distinction between
01:55:01 between fireman's lifts and firefighting lifts fireman's lifts is where you have the switch which you can goes in brigade for the use of a brigade however
01:55:12 for the use of a brigade however it's only firefighting lists which have all the bells and whistles as according to the british standard and so that was highlighted to us
01:55:23 so that was highlighted to us um but i don't recall this email to be honest but that was the difference between the two yes and i appreciate you so you don't recall the email but can you help us now with why you were saying that if the lifts
01:55:35 why you were saying that if the lifts were not
01:55:36 were not technically firefighting lifts um that they needed to confirm that they had the firefighters switch and the backup power supply
01:55:43 supply why were those two items of particular importance to you i can only speak from from a fire safety common sense point of view from at this time now which is it's all important operational information
01:55:54 important operational information if you're going to be using these lists in a file you need to know what support there is behind the actual lift
01:56:02 lift and the fact it has a backup power supply
01:56:05 supply is positive it may not meet fully the british standard but there is in addition to the switch to get control of the lift there is a backup power supply
01:56:15 supply i would consider that positive it's down for the operational crews to make their decisions
01:56:19 decisions and their tactics based upon that sort of information and we are encouraging that provision of such information for that reason if we can go up to page one of that
01:56:30 if we can go up to page one of that document please i will see there janice ray's response to you
01:56:35 to you if we can again increase the size
01:56:40 and just scroll up please
01:56:45 ah thank you sorry i think you did actually have the right part it's my fault but we're there thank you very much uh so janice ray responds to you 29th may 2012 and she apologizes for the delay
01:56:57 and she apologizes for the delay replying to you and then item three she says in discussions with your predecessors we clarified that many of our lifts meet the majority but not all of the criteria for firefighting lifts
01:57:07 lifts for example we did not install a trapdoor hatching the roof of the car etcetera
01:57:12 etcetera it was agreed that we would clarify the criteria that our firefighting lifts in inverter commas do meet and i have attached an email to the then borough commander brian deans setting out these criteria additionally
01:57:24 setting out these criteria additionally i attached a list of the blocks where these lifts are located and you'll see this includes trellic tower now i don't propose to take you to the email that she attached that she sent up brian dean's
01:57:37 attached that she sent up brian dean's all the list but i can if you need me to
01:57:41 do you recall receiving that response no
01:57:47 irrespective of that do you remember during your tenure as team leader that the tmo
01:57:51 the tmo had essentially its own definition of a firefighting lift i don't recall that this time no
01:58:00 this uh email and the contents within it do you recall if you passed that over to rebecca burton when you left the kensington and chelsea fire safety team
01:58:11 fire safety team i had no hand over with rebecca burton um
01:58:15 um at this time i cannot recall that she knew rebecca was actually going to be taking over from me i was on leave for the vast majority of march
01:58:24 march and came back for as i say my statement for two 24-hour duties so i was on duty for 48 hours straight would be i had to use the leave prior to retirement and time owing so i
01:58:35 prior to retirement and time owing so i had 48 hours to tidy up all my desks basically and which was doing all the paperwork and i i did give a briefing to the borough commander
01:58:47 commander and i did have in place people like sahel de la boy who had played a very active role and obviously matthew ramsey played a very active role in key areas of
01:58:58 active role in key areas of of our dealings with the tmo roles are allocated according to capabilities and resp and uh and also their their interests and their
01:59:11 also their their interests and their sort of individual people were responsible individual areas it's not ideal i accept that totally but um but
01:59:18 um but at least there was uh in process uh people who could give key facts to whoever was to take over yes thank you and who is the umber commander who's
01:59:29 you and who is the umber commander who's in place at that time that you gave the handover to um jane philpots i believe yes i believe sir
01:59:36 sir yes it wasn't her i handed over to i believe i handed well i was in contact with jane a lot but it was more uh victoria um oh sorry
01:59:47 victoria um oh sorry her name's slippy again uh victoria i think you mentioned her name and your statement i do apologies i forgot but uh i had a discussion with her yes thank you
01:59:57 thank you um do you recall being sent a copy of the tmo's fire safety strategy i do because i i i asked for it and i was pushing for it as
02:00:09 and i was pushing for it as part of what they should do to meet the requirements of the rro do you recall when you started asking for it um
02:00:17 for it um i don't it would have been relatively early it's it's what we did with all major housing providers was to see if they could could do a strategy
02:00:28 to see if they could could do a strategy for their own clarity and uh i don't recall these updates and what was the purpose of you being given the fire safety strategy was it so you could read it and comment upon it or just have
02:00:39 read it and comment upon it or just have it on
02:00:39 it on file i think jalis would have liked to comment
02:00:43 comment but um i was cautious about commenting to janice on experience and also carl for that reason i have stated in emails that
02:00:54 stated in emails that i thought did good emails but i was good sorry risk assessment but i was cautious and there was because um i i took care of what i said at all times in case it was quoted back to me
02:01:06 times in case it was quoted back to me and it was so i made sure that i tried to say things that were totally accurate and i could i could follow up so um
02:01:17 follow up so um it is like risk assessments risk assessments you don't brigade do not give detailed responses to them
02:01:23 to them broadly compliant is just that broadly compliant it appears to have i think is the text of the letter that goes with it the appropriate areas dealt with so
02:01:34 appropriate areas dealt with so it was not my job to comment on in detail and take over their fire safety strategy i needed to see what was in the detail of the fire safety strategy
02:01:46 the detail of the fire safety strategy for example it refers to far doors being self-closing which i think is a very important detail and they were aware of that and um but it is not my job to take it over and
02:01:58 but it is not my job to take it over and claim authorship or any detailed involvement yes yes i understand um if i can take you to a particular section of that fire safety strategy
02:02:09 section of that fire safety strategy just to see if you recall anything specific about it at the time it's tmo two zeros eight three zero eight
02:02:21 if we just go to page one that's the beginning page of that strategy there and then if we can go to page 12 please
02:02:32 and then if we can go to page 12 please seeing this document now mr camry is this something that you recall sorry i need a little bit of time to
02:02:40 are you allowed to point out what you have in mind because there's a whole page of information yeah i'm sorry yes sorry i was just asking more generally about the document but in particular looking at 18.2 firefighting lifts at
02:02:51 looking at 18.2 firefighting lifts at the bottom of that page on your screen sorry 18.25 lifts right okay if you just want to scan your eyes down that paragraph i won't read it out just 18.2.1 0.1 and then the
02:03:05 just 18.2.1 0.1 and then the numbered paragraphs one and two
02:03:10 you just let me know when you've had a chance to read it
02:03:41 right i've had an initial look at that thank you sorry and if we could just turn over the page it carries on setting out the firefighting lift definition according to the tmo three four and five if you could just please
02:03:52 four and five if you could just please look at those
02:04:08 uh
02:04:18 okay i brought the information thank you very much
02:04:21 very much do you recall reading this at the time i don't
02:04:25 don't know
02:04:29 if i could turn then to a different topic about fire safety information to residents if i could look at um janice ray's third statement it's tmo
02:04:42 00847305 at page 35 please paragraph 118 mr comery at the bottom
02:04:55 paragraph 118 mr comery at the bottom there
02:04:56 there she says there the lfe were kept informed of the fire safety information we gave
02:05:00 we gave to residents again was this something that was a part of the working relationship you had with the tmo that they would tell you about the fire safety information they were giving residents
02:05:11 information they were giving residents i can't remember huge details but they i was aware that they were giving them information through publications and i think a a a a
02:05:22 publications and i think a a a a a new uh someone taking over a flat pack okay and can you just help us with generally at that time when you're a team leader and what you would have expected a
02:05:33 and what you would have expected a tenant management organization to do when communicating via safety advice to residents
02:05:38 residents how how really would you have expected it to be communicated um the key thing was that it was communicated effectively and so as i said an information pack
02:05:52 and so as i said an information pack when you moved into a flat is a good idea but you would need to detail
02:05:57 detail exactly what to do in the event of fire and also what how you should keep the other residents in that building safe for example through maintaining the the the quality and
02:06:10 maintaining the the the quality and efficiency of the father on your flat ensure it is self-closing and like for example with the leaseholder doors if it gets changed it is replaced with something of equivalent standard or in fact the
02:06:21 equivalent standard or in fact the latest standard the later applied standard um with regard to fire resistance and self-closing ability yes thank you i could look to a quarterly meeting it's
02:06:32 could look to a quarterly meeting it's the 15th of may 2013. i think we've probably looked already it's tmo10002691
02:06:46 so at the top there you can see 15th of may 2013
02:06:49 may 2013 quarterly meeting it doesn't actually list the attendees but we can see if you just scan your eyes down the first few bullet points um that janice is talking about confirming and clarifying things and
02:07:00 confirming and clarifying things and you're
02:07:01 you're shown as nick asking janice to provide copies of the current fras right and the second bullet point so would would you agree it probably looks like you were at that meeting it looks that way yes it's a kensel road
02:07:13 it looks that way yes it's a kensel road so
02:07:14 so janice ray would have done the minutes for this one yes understood looking at page two please uh to the bottom of the page we've got the heading there lachnal house
02:07:25 house and then if we could go over to page three it's the same topic
02:07:31 and it's the last bullet point it's written there the issue of advising residents of their fire procedure was discussed
02:07:38 discussed as lachnal had raised the need to find ways other that i think should say other than information via website leaflets magazines and letters however as yet no effective alternative had been
02:07:52 identified i don't recall that having that discussion to be honest but um um well perhaps you can help me with this do you remember um around this time what the issue was
02:08:05 um around this time what the issue was that had been raised at lachnall about advising residents of their fire procedure
02:08:12 i'd assume the key thing was fire action notices
02:08:16 notices but uh as i say i i couldn't be certain about that no and do you recall at the time what was the problem with the forms of communication set out in this bullet point so
02:08:28 this bullet point so website leaflets magazines letters well clearly the first consideration is if it's in the appropriate language
02:08:37 for the person moving into the flat or or having
02:08:40 or having use of the flat um that also applies again to fire action notices however
02:08:46 however um you just repeat the question i should have
02:08:50 have responded apologize um my question was i think you've answered it but i'll repeat it
02:08:55 it um what was the particular problem with the forms of communication identified in your bullet point there which is website leaflets magazines letters
02:09:13 okay i think you have thank you thank you
02:09:16 you and and can you help us if you remember either
02:09:20 either at this meeting or generally uh in your time as team leader of the kensington chelsea fire safety team did you have a discussion with janice ray about the need for fire action
02:09:31 ray about the need for fire action notices
02:09:32 notices in general needs housing i can't recall that detail i'm afraid you could well have happened but i just can't recall thank you looking at the next quarterly meeting
02:09:44 looking at the next quarterly meeting minute if we can it's the first of july 2013 tmo 100 39251
02:09:57 thank you if you can see there it's the quarterly meeting on the first of july 2013 at the hub uh your present as is steve cunningham and janice ray
02:10:08 and janice ray uh i think we've seen this minute before as sue hall data boys made his apologies and if we can turn to page three
02:10:16 and it's the bottom of the page please it's item
02:10:19 it's item seven information to new residents it says there janus circulated a copy of the fire safety letter that we now issue to all new tenants and confirm that a copy of the lfb's
02:10:30 and confirm that a copy of the lfb's home fire safety leaflet accompanies this
02:10:36 do you recall if um this discussion about information to new residents was a follow-on from your discussion at the previous meeting i don't recall and do you
02:10:47 i don't recall and do you remember if you saw this fire safety letter
02:10:50 letter um i don't recall for definite it seems likely i would have had sight of it or myself also hell it might have been a hell of a deal i can't recall to be honest
02:11:02 can't recall to be honest but it certainly sounds like us that we have a lfb home fire safety leaflet accompanied that because we were very keen to try and help vulnerable people within flats even though we were
02:11:14 within flats even though we were regulatory fire safety yes um janice way has explained that the letter is being issued to all new tenants did you know
02:11:24 know what the tmo were doing at that point in time to communicate fire safety information to existing tenants
02:11:31 tenants um to the best of my recall there was a link magazine i believe and there was also a website
02:11:42 and there was also a website and um and um that could well have had reference to the home fire safety page of london fire brigade as well we as i recall that was there we would have
02:11:53 recall that was there we would have encouraged that um but the details i'm afraid no no um and can you help us you may not recall but did you think at the time that communicating information on the link
02:12:05 communicating information on the link through the link magazine and on the website was a sufficient form of communicating fire safety information to existing residents it partly depends what's there i i don't recall having that discussion
02:12:16 i i don't recall having that discussion i'm afraid no thank you turning to a different topic and if i can draw up email from claire wise it's cst406033
02:12:37 and we're looking at the bottom of the page if we can
02:12:42 now if we keep it as it is it's the bottom of the page it says from clairwise to nicholas coombe and it copies in celia kalascan only so you're not copied into the
02:12:53 only so you're not copied into the original email from claire to nicholas cloom but you are copied into the reply which you can see above which i'll take you to in a moment okay that's why i'm asking you about this right and then if we can go over to the next page please
02:13:06 um she wrote there that we spoke some time ago when you kindly agreed to be interviewed for a research project i was carrying out on fire safety a disabled person with disabled people living in flat
02:13:17 with disabled people living in flat central buildings in kensington oh sorry and then she goes on
02:13:22 on fourth paragraph down the fire brigade suggested that it may be prudent for peeps to be carried out for individual residents
02:13:31 residents however we are unclear as to whether it is the landlord's responsibility to do this
02:13:35 this sheltered housing in this borough no longer has a warden in this borough and while there are staff on site these carry out a concierge type role rather than providing any support
02:13:47 just to help you refresh your memory if i can go to the email which you were copied in on above right
02:13:58 above right and it's middle of the page if we could enlarge that if you just want to read that email just refresh your memory i won't read it out
02:14:42 right okay do you recall this this email conversational or no i don't recall it the only thing i recall about sheltered housing is the provision of privacy boxes right with details of residents um
02:14:55 right with details of residents um which was accessible by london fire brigade which happened just before i left i believe were they premises information boxes uh well they're called privacy boxes so
02:15:06 uh well they're called privacy boxes so they were specifically just available for
02:15:09 for the people in the the fire engines attending
02:15:13 attending and he had details of um uh the the um the the needs of the residents
02:15:24 the the needs of the residents if we had to rescue people because of the situation here yes i understand so that was put in place
02:15:30 place um with regard to tmo premises chelsea's accommodation yes understood uh and so when claire wise referred uh in her email that i read out um that
02:15:42 uh in her email that i read out um that someone at the lfb had suggested it might be prudent for personal evacuation sorry personal emergency evacuation plans to be carried out can you help us at all with who might have suggested that or why
02:15:55 who might have suggested that or why no i can't recall to be honest can we go to another email please it's cst402275
02:16:07 so this is an email again from claire wise
02:16:10 wise dated the 26th of september 2012. now you're not copied in on it it's not sent to you but it's talking about a meeting that you attended
02:16:21 attended and as you can see it says hi old janice and i met with the london fire brigade this morning i thought it'd be useful to summarize our discussions on sheltered housing
02:16:29 housing representing the london fire brigade at the meeting were nick comrie nick coombe and andy jack
02:16:36 before i go any further through this perhaps you'd just like to read it to yourself just to familiarize yourself with it and perhaps we could scroll down when mr cummery is ready
02:17:27 you know these are the privacy boxes i was referring to so i jumped ahead i didn't realize apologies no no not at all uh if you just would like to just read the last two paragraphs which have now shown up on your screen again just to
02:17:38 shown up on your screen again just to refresh your memory uh of what's been summarized about this
02:17:54 meeting
02:18:33 okay yes so you've now read claire wise's summary at least of this meeting do you recall this meeting i don't no thank you
02:18:42 thank you and so you you don't you can't help us with whether the issues that are discussed in sema were discussed in the context of only sheltered housing or more widely in respect of general needs housing with regard to the tmo
02:18:54 housing with regard to the tmo yes um no i can't recall that i recall privacy boxes were provided but i believe in shelter but i don't know the full details thank you i don't remember the full
02:19:06 remember the full can i turn to another email lfb20113701
02:19:22 thank you very much it's the email at the bottom of that page on your screen it's from you to janice ray claire wise and others dated the 30th of november 2012
02:19:32 2012 subject lfb sprinkler initiative and you say there that the lfe will be writing to all local authorities to outline the business case for the installation of automatic fire
02:19:43 installation of automatic fire suppression systems in premises housing those most at risk from fire and its effects as part of its this communication we would like to include a list of 10 suitable premises within each borough which lrb consider would benefit from
02:19:55 which lrb consider would benefit from installation of afss due to risk factors of the inhabitants using the attach dependencies i'm to assist the lfe borough commanders for h neft and k c with this identification process
02:20:06 process could i please request your assistance to identify suitable vulnerable persons in local authority premises so just pausing there can you just help us with what this email was about yes i've got slightly better recall of
02:20:18 yes i've got slightly better recall of this one um it it was about vulnerable people and uh if we can uh we we had to do we had to a-fine them through liaising with the local
02:20:29 through liaising with the local authorities and then they were to be compiled i believe at headquarters and to be almost risk-ranked so the most vulnerable would help with get get provided with these
02:20:42 help with get get provided with these automatic fire suppression systems um sprinklers the brigade was particularly keen on for vulnerable people um in the light of several tragic fires and and so
02:20:56 tragic fires and and so this was i approached both authorities houston full of mankind's in chelsea to try and get from them the ten most vulnerable and uh certainly hamilton fulham i got
02:21:07 and uh certainly hamilton fulham i got the full list i i can't quite recall what happened with regard i to casey and chelsea but i don't think we've got a full list yes thank you i was going to ask you about that further because if we scroll to the top of page
02:21:18 top of page one
02:21:24 um janice has replied to you saying can we discuss this at our monthly meeting next week
02:21:29 next week um and we do see at the next monthly meeting i don't think i need to take you to it that there was a discussion about the sprinklage initiative yeah um but you can't recall january ever providing that information
02:21:40 ever providing that information to you is that right i don't recall the information coming from kensington chelsea no thank you very much um mr comrade those are all the questions i have and so if i may i'll ask the chairman for a customer break to see if there
02:21:51 a customer break to see if there anything else i need to put to you right yes we always have a break at this stage right this camera i think just in case castles overlook something or in case others who are not physically in the room want to suggest
02:22:02 physically in the room want to suggest questions right thank you um do you think 10 minutes would be enough more than enough yes right well i will break now until hufflos fall right and uh i must ask you please not
02:22:13 right and uh i must ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room and then when you come back we'll see if there's any more questions for you thank you sir all right thank you very much would you like to go to the ocean please
02:22:34 sorry and depending on which clock you're looking at how fast four may be a bit tight so if if the time's required would you just let the i should tell yes we will thank you very much thank you
02:30:49 yes would you ask mr comrade to come back in please thank you
02:31:05 all right mr comrade we'll see if there's any more questions for you thank you sir yes yes mrs jones thank you mr chairman mr cameron will be pleased to hear there are no more questions so at least let's say thank you very much for coming to assist uh and give your evidence to the inquiry
02:31:17 uh and give your evidence to the inquiry thank you thank you very much yeah mr comey before you go it's right that i should thank you very much on behalf of the panel for your coming to give evidence thank you thank you sir um it hasn't taken very long but it's been
02:31:28 it hasn't taken very long but it's been very useful to hear what you can tell us i'm glad you think that's and so we're very grateful to you for coming here indeed
02:31:34 indeed thank you sir and i know you're free to go thank you thank you very much
02:31:46 and miss jones given the hour we've reached that's probably a convenient point at which to close for the day isn't it yes thank you very much thank you to you and your panel
02:31:53 panel and uh we will look forward to some other witnesses tomorrow yes that's right
02:31:57 right thank you thank you very much 10 o'clock tomorrow then please
02:32:11 tomorrow then please you