Matthew Ramsey (LFB Fire Safety Inspector) and Andrew Jack give evidence about fire safety concerns at Grenfell Tower and TMO estate, including issues with flat entrance doors, smoke ventilation systems, and the TMO's approach to fire safety compliance.
00:00:28 uh
00:00:33 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing
00:00:36 hearing we're going to begin our hearing today by hearing evidence from two members of the london fire brigade who's your first witness mr clear matthew ramsey sir thank you very much
00:00:47 matthew ramsey sir thank you very much yes would you ask mr ramsey to come
00:00:59 yes would you ask mr ramsey to come good morning mr ramsey i understand you'd like to take the oath so there should be a testament there on the desk would you take it in your right hand
00:01:07 hand and read the words on the screen please i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth
00:01:15 the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much indeed now sit down if you would like to and make yourself comfortable
00:01:33 good thank you when you're ready mr kanu thanks sir would you first please confirm your name for the record my name is matthew ramsey mr ramsey thank you very much for attending today it's much appreciated
00:01:44 attending today it's much appreciated um before we start examination um i should make three points clear first of all if at any time you require a
00:01:51 require a break please don't hesitate to say so secondly would you please keep your voice up so that the shorthand writer can capture everything you say and accurately and thirdly and perhaps most importantly
00:02:03 and thirdly and perhaps most importantly my questions are intended to be short and clear
00:02:06 and clear sometimes i don't achieve that aim if it isn't clear please don't hesitate to say so
00:02:10 so and i'll rephrase it thank you now you have made five witness statements in relation to the grenfell fire is that right
00:02:17 right that's correct now two have been made to the inquiry in three to the metropolitan police if we can deal first of all with the two statements of the inquiry your first one was dated the 24th of
00:02:28 your first one was dated the 24th of january 2019 which can be found at lfb triple zero three two zero nine two is that it that is yes and your second statement is dated the 11th of december
00:02:40 statement is dated the 11th of december 2019
00:02:41 2019 which can be found at lfb triple zero eight three eight double five is that it that is yes your first statement uh for the metropolitan police dated the
00:02:53 uh for the metropolitan police dated the 11th of january 2018 which can be found at met treble zero five double six double nine is that it that's correct yes your
00:03:05 is that it that's correct yes your second statement for the metropolitan police's date of the eighth of july 2019 which is that met triple zero five six double nine two and is that it
00:03:17 two and is that it yes and thirdly and finally uh your third statement for the metropolitan police dated the 17th of june 2020 which can be found at met trouble zero
00:03:28 which can be found at met trouble zero seven one
00:03:29 seven one double zero three and is that that statement yes it is thank you have you read those statements recently yes i have and can you confirm their contents are
00:03:40 and can you confirm their contents are true yes i can and you're happy for those to be taken as your evidence for this inquiry yes thank you now first of all could i talk to you about your role experience training and qualifications
00:03:52 qualifications now you have set out in your statement uh
00:03:56 uh the background roles and responsibilities in your first name to the inquiry you state that you were employed by the lfb and the fire safety team as a fire safety inspecting officer from september 2007 onwards is that correct
00:04:09 september 2007 onwards is that correct that is correct and that the hammersmith and fulham fire safety team which you were initially a member of
00:04:15 member of merged with the kensington and chelsea fire safety team in april 2012 is that right yes and that your team leader was originally nicholas comrie
00:04:26 nicholas comrie between 2007 and march 14. yes and rebecca burton from march 2014 to june 2017 is that right that's correct and she was in turn
00:04:38 that's correct and she was in turn succeeded by ben dewis that's correct thank you now you set out
00:04:43 set out paragraph seven of your first statements of the inquiry your role as a fire safety inspecting officer and that job entailed inspecting buildings advising and taking enforcement action against responsible
00:04:55 enforcement action against responsible parties and dealing with concerns raised by the public is that a first summary of the key elements of your role yes i believe it is
00:05:02 is now it was in that role that you are involved in issues relating to flat entrance doors of rbkc tmo properties as well as grenfell tower when you inspected it in march 2014
00:05:13 march 2014 is that correct yes and finally is it right that you left the lfb in april 2018 or thereabouts yes i did thank you
00:05:22 thank you now i want now to turn to your experience training qualifications relation to fire safety inspections and specifically high-rise residential buildings
00:05:31 buildings now if we can turn to lfb trouble zero three two zero nine two forward slash four
00:05:41 and a paragraph twelve of your first statement to the inquiry you say there in the first line that everyone in the fire safety team had their own area of specialism and
00:05:53 had their own area of specialism and going on to the fourth line generally i did take the lead on high-rise inspections but not exclusively were you the lead inspecting officer in relation to high-rise residential buildings
00:06:04 buildings i think for the most part i did that role yes
00:06:07 role yes it wasn't a formal appointment as such it was just the way that tasks were divided
00:06:14 divided initially by nicholas comery and i i looked after high-rise other officers looked after schools and hospitals
00:06:24 hospitals and it was just an easy way of best using the skills within the team thank you and did you receive any trainings
00:06:31 trainings uh specific to the first safety aspects of high-rise residential buildings i don't believe i i received specific training
00:06:40 training although we did make sure that we were absolutely familiar with the guidance especially that was available at the time and how
00:06:51 that was available at the time and how did you do that reading it personally uh by attending where possible um training seminars if such were available
00:07:02 training seminars if such were available i don't recall any specifically but i know i attended a few i couldn't find details of the ones i had attended and also
00:07:14 had attended and also just through through experience of other officers
00:07:18 officers um working with other officers such as nick comory uh gained experience that way put differently do you feel that you had sufficient training for your job i felt so at the time
00:07:31 job i felt so at the time now if we turn over the page in this statement to page five and between paragraphs 15 to 17 you set out your training qualifications can you explain first of all what
00:07:42 can you explain first of all what training you had in relation to completing fire safety audits so when i started in september 2007 training was provided in-house
00:07:54 training was provided in-house by experienced officers who and we did a long series of training modules
00:08:03 modules before we were ever allowed to go out and inspect any form of premises and so the in-house training and in-house
00:08:11 in-house development folder which was to demonstrate my competence to my team leader over my first year or so of work um i think gave me a good grounding and
00:08:23 i think gave me a good grounding and would it flow from the answer you gave some questions ago that you were familiar with the local government association's guide entitled fire safety and purpose built blocks of flats yes i was familiar with that
00:08:35 that now as of 2013 you were also registered as an
00:08:38 as an auditor of fire risk assessment on the institution of fire engineers professional register what prompted you to obtain that particular accreditation it was made available it was a way of
00:08:49 it was made available it was a way of demonstrating my competence in the role as inspecting officer and how did that qualification inform or guide the way you approached your job
00:09:01 guide the way you approached your job it was an assessment of my knowledge first of all on paper and then in an interview and my competence was assessed by um experienced senior officers from a
00:09:13 experienced senior officers from a different brigade and then i was deemed sufficiently competent to be included on the register and it was not all officers
00:09:22 officers were on the register at that time some found it difficult to get on but uh thankfully myself and i i remember nick comrade also being a member of that register thank you now i now want to
00:09:35 register thank you now i now want to turn on to issues that arose in relation to flat entrance doors on the rbkc tmo estate and the first specific issue i'd like to discuss with you is a meeting on the 8th of november 2012
00:09:46 of november 2012 between the lfb rbkc and tmo now if we can go to
00:09:51 can go to lfb trouble zero three two zero nine two forward slash thirteen
00:09:59 uh you set out in paragraphs forty seven to forty eight of this statement a meeting on the 8th of november 2012. can you remember now why you had been invited to attend the meeting
00:10:11 invited to attend the meeting yes um this this meeting was solely in relation to the tmos approach to
00:10:18 to managing leaseholder flat entry doors as i recall
00:10:22 i recall and you were there presumably because of your interest in high-rise residential buildings
00:10:26 buildings not specifically that i had undertaken an inspection of a building where there was a leaseholder door that was
00:10:34 was significantly substandard non-compliant i believe presented a risk to the rest of the building residents and this was a good example of the lack of management of leaseholder doors
00:10:46 of management of leaseholder doors and was that a door at grenfell or was it another building part of the tmo stock
00:10:51 stock it was it's another building uh gilray house as a record now you say in paragraph 48 which is on the screen that your attendance was limited to explaining facts i.e particular buildings where
00:11:02 i.e particular buildings where non-compliant doors had been identified and detailing what the potential risks were with non-compliant front doors do you remember the particular buildings you identified you've already mentioned
00:11:13 you identified you've already mentioned gilray were there any others um yes
00:11:20 of particular interest i think would have been a dare tower which was something that a significant fire before grenfell tower the grenfell tower fire
00:11:31 grenfell tower the grenfell tower fire and there were a number of other lower rise buildings where there have been significant issues with a failure to provide adequate
00:11:42 with a failure to provide adequate self-closing devices to doors and for the avoidance of doubt was grenfell tower any of those buildings which you cited in this meeting no in broad terms can you give us the gist of the non-compliances you'd
00:11:54 gist of the non-compliances you'd identified yes so a fire door or fine door set is made up of a number of component parts we have the door leaf we have things like the hinges
00:12:06 door leaf we have things like the hinges the letterbox that all frame itself any closing devices
00:12:11 devices so significant deficiencies really would be if there have been holes in and around the frame or the frame had been made of insubstantial materials whether the door leaf to the
00:12:24 whether the door leaf to the to the door set was likely because of its construction to resist a fire or not and whether the door was self-closing effectively i
00:12:35 effectively i it fully closed into the frame were there any maintenance issues that had caused you concern many yes again would you mind giving the panel the gist of the maintenance issues you'd identified on many inspections
00:12:48 you'd identified on many inspections um i've i sampled flat entry doors which meant
00:12:54 meant that i would knock on a number of doors not knowing whether they were leaseholder doors or tenanted doors to see whether the door was adequately fire resisting
00:13:05 fire resisting and self-closing that was my common practice
00:13:08 practice at the time now andy jack in his statement to the police data the 7th of may 2019
00:13:14 may 2019 we don't go we don't need to go to it but the reference is met triple zero four triple zero one forward slash fifteen second paragraph first line he said this
00:13:26 second paragraph first line he said this in relation to the eighth of november meeting an additional conversation took place
00:13:31 place after the close of the meeting to discuss enforcement in respect to flat front doors do you recall an additional conversation after the close of the meeting
00:13:41 meeting i don't believe i was involved in that additional conversation can you help us as to who stayed after at the close of the meeting was it i'm sorry i don't recall
00:13:55 now in uh also in that statement andy jack says that he made
00:14:02 made the following point about self-closing devices
00:14:06 devices we further discussed the issue of doors and door closes in relation to the maintenance and management requires of the order
00:14:12 the order the point being made by me that collectively there was a need not only to maintain doors and self-closing devices in an efficient manner an efficient state and good working order but this should be subject to effective planning
00:14:23 effective planning organization control monitoring and review now can you remember andy jack making that point in the substantive meeting which you attended absolutely yes uh you say absolutely yes why do you
00:14:34 uh you say absolutely yes why do you have such a clear recollection of that that was the main thrust of his argument it was so essential to maintain these doors in that state for the safety of the building and that doing anything else just
00:14:47 and that doing anything else just wasn't appropriate was anything in the substantive meeting discussed regarding the maintenance and monitoring requirements in relation flat entrance doors i believe it may have been but
00:14:58 believe it may have been but i don't recall any detail
00:15:04 given that a flat entrance door replacement program had been taking place between 2011 2013 was there any discussion of maintenance
00:15:15 was there any discussion of maintenance requirements and monitoring requirements in relation to that door replacement program that you can remember i don't recall
00:15:24 andy jack says that he recalls uh in the meeting a discussion about checking of fire resisting compartmentation generally as part of the fire risk assessment process do you remember that subject being
00:15:35 do you remember that subject being discussed in the substantive meeting i don't recall andy jacks says that he highlighted the possibility of carrying out types of checks in flats which have
00:15:46 types of checks in flats which have become vacant otherwise known as a void in the substantive meeting do you remember any discussion of that matter i don't recall that detail now can i
00:15:57 i don't recall that detail now can i move away from that meeting to email correspondence in relation to flat entrance doors and flowing from your answers that you've identified issues elsewhere on the tmo estate could we go first of all to cst
00:16:09 we go first of all to cst triple zero two double zero three eight forward slash three and in particular the bottom half of the page which is an email uh from mr ramsey to
00:16:20 which is an email uh from mr ramsey to janice ray and there we go 29th of november 2013 sent at 1647 uh entitled fire safety at elm park house
00:16:31 house do you remember sending that email mr ramsey
00:16:35 ramsey yes after reading it in the bundle of material i've been support supplied with yes i do remember that email now if i can ask us to go to lfb quadruple zero three five three four
00:16:47 quadruple zero three five three four four slash one we should have miss ray's response thank you dated the 18th of december 2013
00:16:59 2013 and nicholas comrey was copied in is the email sent to you do you remember that response yes on reading it now we see item one of
00:17:10 yes on reading it now we see item one of that email first paragraph uh january noted your concern about self-closing devices at elm park and explained
00:17:17 explained the tmo's approach to flat entrance doors had been discussed consistently with the lfb over recent years including the meeting the day before janice ray then sets out the tmo's approach to tenant doors
00:17:29 approach to tenant doors thus and i quote when replacement flat entrance doors are fitted they are fire rated and self-closing when properties become void self-closures will be reinstated installed as necessary at other times
00:17:41 installed as necessary at other times when major work has been undertaken in a dwelling
00:17:44 dwelling the self-closure will be reinstated if that
00:17:47 that if it has been disconnected from the late perspective mr ramsey that appears to suggest that for doors with sub-closes installed those self-closures would only be
00:17:58 those self-closures would only be inspected and reinstated as necessary when the property became either void or major works were carried out was that how you read that email that's how i read it whether i believed
00:18:10 that's how i read it whether i believed it was sufficient or not is something different
00:18:12 different well that flows that prompts my next question
00:18:15 question did you consider that approach to be sufficient to discharge obligations under the fire safety order certainly not and in what respects did you feel that this fell short
00:18:26 you feel that this fell short it was so easy for any door to become non-compliant over that period of time it could be many years between tenants
00:18:37 it could be many years between tenants i've been in my house for 10 years so it could be 10 years between checks which is clearly insufficient to ensure
00:18:44 ensure something as important as a self-closure was functioning can you remember now whether you responded to that email by an email of your own or in a telephone conversation or in a meeting
00:18:55 telephone conversation or in a meeting i don't recall but the email itself is also copied into nicholas commery he was my team leader at the time he was aware
00:19:04 aware of this issue and he had regular team meetings with the tmo and would no doubt have taken this forward put bluntly did you approve expressly or impliedly
00:19:16 did you approve expressly or impliedly the approach that is summarized in item one of this email no to the best of your knowledge did mr comrade ever approve the approach set out in this email no would you have kept you up to date on discussions he'd had with the tmo
00:19:28 discussions he'd had with the tmo on this issue or indeed any other issue in most cases yes
00:19:34 did you have calls to discuss the contents of this email with mr comray i i don't recall but i think it's highly likely that we did
00:19:44 now can i turn to the third statement you provided to the metropolitan police and that can be found at met trouble zero seven one double zero three forward slash
00:19:56 one double zero three forward slash five
00:20:02 and if we go to the third paragraph on that page and the fourth line
00:20:09 where you say this in relation to janitor and carl stokes at times i felt they were economical with the truth especially in regard to the standards of flat entry doors i can't say for certain that they
00:20:21 i can't say for certain that they outright lied but i'm not entirely sure the whole truth was told they claimed that the fire doors were up to standard this had proved untrue during my audits of tmo managed premises
00:20:32 of tmo managed premises having undertaken inspections subsequently i know there are blocks within the borough where a number of the flat doors inside were not up to fire safety standard so the information they gave about the
00:20:43 so the information they gave about the refurb program at that point didn't stack up close quotes now just for the avoidance of doubt in relation to that comment are you thinking about flat entrance doors in
00:20:55 thinking about flat entrance doors in particular yes what did you mean when you said quotes they claimed that the fire doors were up to standard this had proved untrue close quotes i think at times information feed fed
00:21:09 i think at times information feed fed back from the i think by monthly meetings that the tmo had had
00:21:14 had had suggested that there were very few uh non-compliant flat entry doors remaining however um each time i'd done a an audit on a tml premises i found
00:21:27 on a tml premises i found you know a significant number in one premises i think barrenden walk tested one of the finger blocks adjacent to grenfell there were more non-compliant front
00:21:38 there were more non-compliant front doors
00:21:39 doors in just those blocks than there had been in the whole in what janus had described as
00:21:45 as as being non-compliant did you raise the fact and extent of the non-compliances first of all with the tmo itself not with the tmo no who did you raise
00:21:56 not with the tmo no who did you raise those uh concerns with i remember having discussions with my team leader at the time
00:22:03 and you know what your team leader did in respect of those concerns about the fact and extent of non-compliances you'd identified i don't know
00:22:16 now can i turn to your inspection of the tower on the 12th of march 2014 which led to your issuing and notice of deficiency on the 24th of march 2014.
00:22:29 deficiency on the 24th of march 2014. now before i ask you about the inspection can i ask you to turn to the notice itself which can be found at lfb
00:22:38 0032101
00:22:43 and we can see from the top left hand corner it's addressed to the tmo alone why wouldn't you address a notice such as this to rbkc as well
00:22:58 the instructions i'd had for my team leader to were to address in this way and did he give you an explanation as to why he felt that when he'd um spoken with
00:23:10 he felt that when he'd um spoken with the enforcement team at union street head offices that that they told him this was the appropriate approach to take now turning to your site visit on the 12th of march 2014 was the audit of the tower primarily
00:23:22 was the audit of the tower primarily triggered by your concerns regarding the poor state of the smoke management system
00:23:27 system and or some other reason yes so it's a smoke management management system yes now can we go to lfb
00:23:37 0083856
00:23:44 now is what we see here everything that you recorded during the course of your site visit on the 12th of march 2014 i believe that's what's ultimately
00:23:56 i believe that's what's ultimately recorded i may have made initially made notes in one of the entry boxes
00:24:03 boxes whilst on site and then returned to the office
00:24:06 office to type up and this is what is left and am i right that this information was recorded on a tablet device provided by the lfb to you for the purposes of recording what you encounter on visits
00:24:17 recording what you encounter on visits that's correct now the first thing i'd like to ask you about this is who attended this site visit in your first inquiry statement we don't need to go to it but it's paragraph 18
00:24:29 it but it's paragraph 18 lfb two zero 003209 two forward slash five
00:24:33 five you listed the attendees as yourself daniel halsey janice ray and carl stokes is that right i believe so though um looking at other
00:24:44 i believe so though um looking at other documentary evidence it would suggest that janice may not have been there that's the point i wanted to ask you about now if i take it take you through some of the documents we have it may um sort of prompt your memory now we
00:24:55 um sort of prompt your memory now we have an email written the day after the site visit and it's at tmo one trouble zero double five one five forward slash two
00:25:07 and if we go to the bottom of the page we see there an email from bruce soon of studio e
00:25:14 studio e to claire williams janice ray carl stokes
00:25:18 stokes and another and if we turn over the page to the top of page 3 we see that mr sums records that the fire brigade visit grenfell tower 13th of march ben lewis matthew ramsey dan hussey now
00:25:30 ben lewis matthew ramsey dan hussey now he's
00:25:30 he's he's got the names of mr julius and mr hussey wrong but do you think it's right that those were the people who attended on behalf of the lfb yes and was bruce soon's present as well
00:25:42 yes and was bruce soon's present as well i don't recall claire williams i believe clem was there i don't have a clear recollection of all attendants it doesn't appear that
00:25:53 all attendants it doesn't appear that either miss ray or mr stokes were there on the basis of this email then i i may well have been mistaken in that regard
00:26:04 well have been mistaken in that regard now can i now turn to the information which you
00:26:08 which you uh obtained before the inspection and if i could ask you to turn to lfb trouble zero eight three eight double five forward slits forward six
00:26:19 slits forward six and it should be paragraph fourteen of your second statement to this inquiry the third line you say it was your normal practice to request a copy of the fire risk assessment before completing an inspection but on
00:26:32 before completing an inspection but on this occasion you did not ask for it beforehand and you only received it by email two days after inspection and before you completed the premises inspection and data collection form
00:26:44 inspection and data collection form and go on to say if i can go to another statement
00:26:47 statement in your paragraph 21 of your first statement to the inquiry which is an lfb trouble zero three two zero nine two forward slash six
00:26:59 if we look at paragraph 21 the fourth line from the bottom in particular
00:27:04 you say i needed a copy of the fire risk assessment in order to complete my audit inspection it acts as a baseline for considering the weaknesses and strengths of a building and i've
00:27:16 and strengths of a building and i've considered and i would have considered it prior to during and after my subsequent inspection do you think the absence of the fra before your inspection denied you the chance fully to consider the strengths
00:27:27 chance fully to consider the strengths and weaknesses of grenfell tower for example
00:27:32 there may have been items listed within the fire risk assessment which i wasn't aware of
00:27:39 aware of um without having viewed it of course my i would have seen everything within the common parts especially that the areas that are had of particular concern
00:27:51 areas that are had of particular concern in relation to the ventilation system it's always useful to see the fire risk assessment ahead of time and to consider it again at the end of the audit process to make sure that it is
00:28:02 is suitable and sufficient there's no way of
00:28:05 of determining whether a fire risk assessment is suitable and sufficient without also considering the premises in person
00:28:12 person do you think it's absence in any way uh altered or undermined the the rigor or depth of the inspection you carried out on the 12th of march i don't believe so because i had the opportunity after the
00:28:24 because i had the opportunity after the audit if necessary to return to the premises
00:28:27 premises my audit wasn't complete until i'd considered the fire risk assessment and if we could turn to your second statement to the inquiry which can be found
00:28:34 found lfb triple zero eight three eight double five
00:28:38 five forward slash five and paragraph
00:28:42 thirteen and you say there in the first five lines
00:28:49 lines you don't recall receiving the separate record of significant findings and action plan for grandfather for your audit
00:28:54 audit and you don't recall asking for it as janice ray had provided the fra which you quotes felt was generally suitable and sufficient and provided me with enough information to discharge my duties close quotes
00:29:06 to discharge my duties close quotes as a matter of practice would you usually examine and interrogate the record of significant findings in action planned
00:29:13 planned yes and why would you do that i need to take into consideration what the tmo
00:29:20 the tmo had identified for themselves what action
00:29:23 action they were taking to to make improvements so
00:29:27 so it would be unfair to enforce if they'd identified and made plans to correct a problem um if they'd already done that that was
00:29:38 if they'd already done that that was good
00:29:41 good now can i turn to the information you gathered
00:29:44 gathered during the course of the site visit and inspection first of all how long did the site
00:29:49 site visit inspection take can you remember i don't recall i would i would estimate from typical inspections around an hour and a half
00:30:01 now can we look at the first topic which is inspection of the means of escape and could i ask you to turn to lfb triple zero eight three eight five six forward slash
00:30:12 eight three eight five six forward slash ten
00:30:18 and we have a audit conclusion box it's under management compliance
00:30:28 thank you and you'll see the stated 70 audited escape routes just to be absolutely clear does that mean that you audited inspected
00:30:39 mean that you audited inspected 70 of the escape routes that's correct um is there a particular importance about the 70 figure no it's just a factual figure so we would not always have to
00:30:53 we would not always have to view the entire premises if we felt that we had an accurate picture of the of the premises condition by auditing a sample
00:31:05 by auditing a sample then we could
00:31:09 shorten the audit which was always helpful to the responsible person this was particularly useful in a very well managed premises because um you wouldn't need to look at everything in in every detail if the
00:31:21 everything in in every detail if the premises was well managed the purpose of this was to shorten as far as possible audits for the responsible person thank you i'm sorry i'm sorry mr ramsey i cut across you is there anything
00:31:32 you is there anything i didn't want to cut off your answer i think by having looked at 70 percent of the premises i'd found and and talked talking with staff i had enough information to draw conclusions
00:31:43 enough information to draw conclusions and although i'm trying i noticed that you rated the management compliance at level two above average how many levels were there to
00:31:55 average how many levels were there to to choose from there are five levels well six in in terms of really terrible premises but in practical speaking there are five levels um
00:32:05 levels um this is this is not me making that decision
00:32:09 decision this is the software within the tablet uh
00:32:15 my entries into that tablet this um management compliance level is automatically assigned i see and so it's two the second from the top yes it is right i think it's helpful to
00:32:28 yes it is right i think it's helpful to know that thank you thank you and just looking at the 70 figure although expressed in percentage terms
00:32:34 terms is that more of a broad brush indication of the
00:32:38 of the extent which you inspected the means of escape
00:32:41 escape that's accurate yes now can we turn to the second topic which is inspection of flat entrance doors themselves and if we can leave this document and go to your first statement to the inquiry
00:32:53 to your first statement to the inquiry which can be found at lfb treble zero three two zero nine two forward slash six and paragraph 19
00:33:03 and four lines from the bottom of that paragraph you say this and i quote i was told the flat front doors were going to be upgraded to ensure they were all suitably fire resistant and self-closing
00:33:14 resistant and self-closing as part of the refurbishment project i did not therefore focus on flat front doors during my site visit as i've been told by janet ray a plan was in place to rectify this issue do you remember when you were told
00:33:27 issue do you remember when you were told that particular piece of information by janice ray no i don't recall
00:33:34 are you able to give the panel the gist of the detail you were provided regarding the the door replacement program at that state
00:33:44 state i wasn't given great detail in relation to
00:33:47 to what doors were being chosen what blocks were being where the doors were being replaced those discussions were held at the bi-monthly team uh meetings held
00:33:58 at the bi-monthly team uh meetings held with my team leader and janice ray so i didn't attend those meetings so can we take it that you were not aware at this stage in march 2014 that almost all of the flat entrance
00:34:10 that almost all of the flat entrance doors except those owned by leaseholders at grenfell tower had been upgraded between 2011 and 2013. no i wasn't aware of that thank you now when you usually undertake inspections
00:34:21 when you usually undertake inspections of flat
00:34:21 of flat entrance doors do you try to gain access to flats to inspect them and inspect items such as the self-closing devices strips and seals on the inside absolutely my common practice in in
00:34:32 absolutely my common practice in in every high-rise premises that i undertook audits in yes can we can it be reduced to such crude terms do you have a sort of a percentage of doors in a high-rise
00:34:44 percentage of doors in a high-rise residential building that you'll try and inspect i wouldn't say i had a percentage but i i would certainly usually start at the top
00:34:53 top knock on one or two doors on that level if i wasn't able to gain access and carry on knocking until i did gain access which was difficult at times
00:35:04 access which was difficult at times and wouldn't leave until i got a reasonable picture as far as i could a reasonable picture of what was available so i can't give you a figure of how many doors
00:35:15 doors i would i would knock on or how many doors i'd be happy with it would be more in relation to the condition of the doors that i did find so if i knock on five doors and manage to get five open and all are
00:35:27 and manage to get five open and all are self-closing i'm going to be reasonably happy with that um would an a visual exp inspection of the external doors give you some insight into the rigor of the
00:35:39 some insight into the rigor of the maintenance regime very little insight can i now turn to a premises information form which can be found at lfb triple zero eight three eight five six
00:35:51 triple zero eight three eight five six forward slash seven and in particular the heading article
00:35:56 article 14. which is in the third line of observations at the bottom of the page
00:36:07 you note there and it's the sentence starts on the far right hand side third line down flat entry doors all appear to be suitably fire resisting majority of entry doors are newly
00:36:19 majority of entry doors are newly installed
00:36:21 installed are fitted are self-closing some leaseholder doors are fr leaves it it is unknown whether these are self-closing with approved self-closers
00:36:33 with approved self-closers now that suggests at least to the lay eye that you'd had the opportunity to inspect
00:36:38 inspect at least some leaseholder doors is that a fair reading of of that summary i would have noticed the difference between doors that have been replaced possibly by
00:36:49 been replaced possibly by um by the tmo with new doors those doors remaining
00:36:54 remaining were most frequently lease holder doors um i can see that the door itself i'm saying here the door appears to be a fire resisting door leaf of sufficient
00:37:05 fire resisting door leaf of sufficient thickness and construction but i wasn't able to gain access to actually inspect whether those doors were self-closing now where you observe that all flat entry doors appear to be
00:37:18 that all flat entry doors appear to be suitably fire resisting you'd reach that view through the method you've just explained to the panel i assume
00:37:24 assume yes
00:37:28 can you recall now and please confirm if you can't
00:37:31 you can't how many flat entrance stores you weren't able to or how many you were able to inspect i don't recall
00:37:42 can you help us as to how you reach the conclusion that quotes the majority of entry doors are fitted as self-closing the only the only thing i i don't
00:37:54 the only the only thing i i don't specifically remember this conversations i had around this audit my common practice at the time was as i said before to to sample sample doors so i believe i must have
00:38:08 sample doors so i believe i must have witnessed visibly that the door itself self-closing effectively thank you if i can now turn to inspection of lifts mr ramsay and if i can ask us to go to
00:38:21 and if i can ask us to go to lfb trouble zero eight three eight double five forward slash two which is your second statement to this inquiry and paragraph four and the first line
00:38:34 four and the first line you say you don't recall any discussions uh regarding lifts on that occasion and if we can go on to paragraph seven of this statement on page three
00:38:47 of this statement on page three in the first line you say this i've been provided with a copy of an email from claire williams sent to janice ray on the 12th of march 2014
00:38:55 2014 at 15 42 hours i note claire's comment carl can you please confirm that the lifts are either fireman's or fire fighting i did not realize
00:39:05 realize the difference now at paragraph nine of your second statement to this inquiry you accept having read this email it was possible a discussion about lifts took place can you provide us with any information
00:39:17 can you provide us with any information as to whether you or daniel hallacy or ben duis
00:39:20 ben duis sought confirmation as the type of lift that was installed at grenfell no um i don't recall the specific conversations very well
00:39:32 the specific conversations very well at this time obviously the the emails indicate that there was a discussion in place i wanted to understand the standard of lift at the building i was also aware by this
00:39:43 at the building i was also aware by this time that there was likely to be a major refurbishment of the building and that lifts would be a part of that major refurbishment can you remember whether you received any confirmation as to the type of lift
00:39:55 any confirmation as to the type of lift that was at grand fall no i don't believe it i ever did is that again the type of information that would have been communicated to your team leader rather than yourself no that should have been communicated to
00:40:06 no that should have been communicated to me
00:40:07 me were you ever made aware that the lifts at granville were not firefighting lifts i wasn't given confirmation of the type of lift
00:40:16 of lift that was there by looking at the lift i i didn't believe that they were modern standard firefighting lifts but i wanted confirmation of what their understanding was
00:40:28 understanding was do you remember having any subsequent discussion with mr comray uh or mr duis or indeed mr halsey after the site visit regarding the type of lift
00:40:36 lift that was a grenfell no
00:40:42 can i now turn to lfb triple zero three two zero nine three
00:40:49 forward slash six
00:40:57 now this is the fra for grenfell tower dated the 20th of november 2012. that's the one you were provided with following the site visit in march 2014
00:41:09 following the site visit in march 2014 and we see in the first box third paragraph the final sentence the lifts are described as firefighting slash evacuation lifts we don't need to go to the relevant
00:41:20 we don't need to go to the relevant pages but that formula is repeated at internal pages 5 14 20 and 25 of the fra
00:41:28 fra did you consider or did that reference prompt any further consideration of the type of lift that was at grenfell after your visit
00:41:39 to be to be honest i don't recall giving that
00:41:42 that the consideration probably dude there's no chance that they would have been evacuation lifts as possible there had been firefighting lifts absolutely no chance for evacuation
00:41:53 absolutely no chance for evacuation lifts
00:41:55 lifts which are not commonly fitted into residential buildings now can we turn back to your second statement in the inquiry in paragraph
00:42:06 statement in the inquiry in paragraph nine which can be found at lfb treble zero eight three eight double five forward slash three thank you and in the second line of that paragraph
00:42:17 of that paragraph you say that it would be my usual practice when conducting an inspection to check that the brigade would have access to the lift and that the drop keys
00:42:25 keys could be used to transfer the lift operation under the brigade's control i cannot recall whether i conducted this check at the grenfell tower inspection in march 2014. was it standard lfb practice as opposed
00:42:38 was it standard lfb practice as opposed to your own personal practice to carry out that particular check no i don't believe it was not all officers carried the key necessary to undertake that check
00:42:50 key necessary to undertake that check would that involve a physical test as to whether the drop key was working or not
00:42:56 yes
00:43:00 would you have carried out that check on this visit given your personal habit personal habit yes i can't give that firm assurance of inquiry
00:43:09 inquiry thank you can i now turn on to the question the premises information pack now um do you recall suggesting that premises information pack should be held in the reception of grenfell tower
00:43:20 in the reception of grenfell tower yes
00:43:24 why did you feel it was necessary what were its advantages one of the most important things in in the event of a fire is for firefighters to
00:43:33 to have a good knowledge of the layout of the building the layout of flats um this is really useful information to operational fire crews i wanted to
00:43:44 to operational fire crews i wanted to make sure that if there had been a fire at grenfell tower crews had
00:43:49 crews had readily available information about the layout of the building thank you now can i turn now to the inspection of the smoke control system itself and in particular the emails are
00:44:00 itself and in particular the emails are between claire williams bruce soons and janitore
00:44:03 janitore after your visit and first of all could we go to tm0100
00:44:11 forward slash 4 which hopefully is claire williams's email of the 12th of march of 1543. there we go now she comments at item 2 matthew presumably you
00:44:24 2 matthew presumably you was very unhappy about the existing state of the smoke fence to each lobby of those looked at about thirty percent were not in the right position i've been chasing rge for two months now
00:44:35 i've been chasing rge for two months now on their servicing records and had nothing back matthew said about issuing us with notice to confirm fully functional in six weeks and if we can stay in this chain but go up to page two
00:44:48 stay in this chain but go up to page two and bruce sums his reply the 13th of march
00:44:52 march there we go 2014 at 1346 and just below halfway
00:44:57 halfway down he comments vents opened
00:45:02 there we go it's immediately above it is a bullet point says bike found chain to dry riser then we see vents open and closed existing situation not working matthew ramsey very unhappy
00:45:16 not working matthew ramsey very unhappy the fact dampers do not appear to be functional risk of four-week enforcement notice
00:45:21 notice a demonstration would be required this is urgent
00:45:25 is urgent do the contents of the williams and soon emails
00:45:29 emails fairly reflect your concerns expressed during the course of your inspection yes i certainly was very concerned about the poor state of the ventilation system in my view at that time i didn't need to
00:45:41 in my view at that time i didn't need to see the servicing records it was in such poor condition that it needed immediate uh immediate immediate repair i don't recall ever requiring that they should demonstrate
00:45:52 requiring that they should demonstrate that to me though um following on from the answer in relation to maintenance could i ask us to turn to cst quadrupled zero three double one five forward slash one
00:46:05 three double one five forward slash one and it's an email you sent to janice ray on the 14th of march
00:46:11 and you ask for the fra and it's four lines from the bottom of the email at the end of the line you requested the maintenance records for the smoke vent system for the last two years
00:46:22 two years and as we discussed approx 25 of the vents do not appear to be an effective working order and bearing that email in mind could i ask us to go to your second statement of
00:46:33 ask us to go to your second statement of this inquiry which is a lfb travel zero eight three eight double five forward slash four
00:46:43 four and at paragraph 10 you say in the second line i do not recall ever receiving the records and the system was in such a poor state you assumed it had not been maintained for some time
00:46:56 not been maintained for some time that's a long run up to a simple question
00:46:59 question is it fair to say that your concerns about the smoke control system related both to the fact it did not work and the poor state of maintenance yes
00:47:09 now if we can stay in this particular statement and go forward to paragraph 19 at page seven
00:47:21 and six lines down from the top to the end of that paragraph you say this and i quote
00:47:26 quote the two reasons why i decided following my inspection of grenfell tower on the 12th of march 2014 an nod that's a notice of deficiencies rather than an enforcement notice was a
00:47:37 rather than an enforcement notice was a proportionate response were first in my dealings with kc tmo as a responsible person they generally acted on brigade advice and could in most cases be trusted to
00:47:48 and could in most cases be trusted to take remedial action within set time scales second i was aware a major refurbishment of the premises was imminent and that the refurbishment would be subject to building control oversight now can you explain
00:48:01 oversight now can you explain what previous experience with the tmo provided you with reassurance that they generally took the necessary remedial action within the set time scales
00:48:12 within the set time scales well if you think i'd undertaken quite a number of
00:48:16 number of audits within tmo premises not in not every case were leaseholder doors or flat entry doors
00:48:24 doors presenting themselves as an issue so this is not just high-rise but this is across their housing stock and and where minor repairs um were identified they
00:48:36 minor repairs um were identified they were often quickly actioned janus ray was was efficient in and taking those things forward as far as i understood at the time that was certainly the feedback that we got from them and the feedback that we got
00:48:47 feedback that we got from our or from my team leader in the bi-monthly meetings so i had um reasonable confidence that in in most cases apart
00:48:58 cases apart apart from flat entry doors they would generally deal with the issues we raised and in relation to flat entry doors your concerns regarding economy with the truth was limited to that issue and didn't inform your
00:49:09 that issue and didn't inform your broader take on their compliance often it was very difficult to get test records for fire safety systems they were just not provided with and they were we were given assurances that
00:49:20 they were we were given assurances that these things were were tested were but when you wanted the proof of that well it wasn't forthcoming um most most of my thoughts in that was in relation to the flat entry doors where
00:49:32 relation to the flat entry doors where we've been told they had very few non-compliant doors my experience was they had many more than they said they had you say that you referred to the fact that
00:49:43 you referred to the fact that refurbishment would be subject to building control oversight why was building controls involvement a source of reassurance for you
00:49:53 it means that the the whole the project as a whole would have to be considered by qualified architects qualified fire
00:50:04 qualified architects qualified fire engineers
00:50:05 engineers it would have a consultation with the fire service to to actually discuss the the existing and proposed changes to the premises um
00:50:16 and proposed changes to the premises um and so there were a lot of professionals who would be looking at the the detail of the proposals and those plans should be then enacted obviously on site which may
00:50:28 enacted obviously on site which may should in theory make a much safer premises at the end of the process thank you can we turn to the notice of deficiencies itself which can be found at treble zero three
00:50:40 which can be found at treble zero three two one zero one and forward slash three
00:50:46 and if i could look at article one oh sorry article eleven in particular in the right hand column it stated this in respect to the aov i quote implement effective monitoring
00:50:58 i quote implement effective monitoring of preventive and protective measures and we don't need to go to it but the deadline for mediation action was prescribed as being the fifth of may 2014 and if we can just hold that
00:51:11 2014 and if we can just hold that in our minds and turn to the third statement for the police that you prepared
00:51:14 prepared which is that met trouble zero seven one double zero three forward slash five and the first paragraph on that
00:51:25 five and the first paragraph on that page and the last three lines you say in relation to the date by which action was required and i quote this needed to be addressed quickly to better protect both residents
00:51:36 quickly to better protect both residents and firefighters i gave them until may 2014 to rectify this
00:51:41 this having conducted the audit in march i felt after discussion with janus this was a good time frame to complete the works close quote can you help us what precisely did you
00:51:52 can you help us what precisely did you require the uh tmo to have done by the fifth of may 2014
00:51:59 2014 to make sure the existing system which was in place was effectively working
00:52:07 now if we can turn and apologies for jumping around the statements mr ramsey if we can turn to your first statement to this inquiry lfb trouble zero three two zero nine
00:52:18 lfb trouble zero three two zero nine two forward slash seven and paragraph twenty three point two and at the end of the second line you say this i described this as a minor deficiency
00:52:31 deficiency so that's in relation to article 11 and the aov as janice ray had satisfied me that there was a plan in place to address this during the refurbishment can you remember now the gist of what
00:52:43 can you remember now the gist of what you were told about the refurbishment about the plan that you were referring to in paragraph 23.2
00:52:51 23.2 i was told in general terms there was a plan to replace the smoke ventilation system at grenfell tower i think it was understood that it it didn't even at the time of its own
00:53:02 didn't even at the time of its own the original system didn't meet any recognized standard even at the time and didn't certainly didn't meet any modern recognized standard for an arv system so
00:53:15 for an arv system so my thought was because there is a a plan to rectify the problem it's reasonable to require to see that as a minor deficiency because they had that plan in
00:53:27 deficiency because they had that plan in place
00:53:28 place but also is sufficiently important for me to to mention it and to require them to fix the existing system to make the best possible uh conditions in the event of a fire
00:53:39 fire now by the fifth of may 2014 deadline had you been told that the deficiency had been remedied by anyone at the tma no so the best of your knowledge was
00:53:50 no so the best of your knowledge was anyone else in the fire safety team told that the deficiency had been remedied i'm not aware
00:53:58 now could i turn to tmo one trouble zero eight seven nine two forward slash two
00:54:06 which should be the minutes of the tmo health and safety meeting held on the 2nd of november 2014. actually that was my fault could i ask you to go to the first page of that just so people can see
00:54:18 so people can see what we're referring to there we go health and social media on the 21st november 2014 and go back to the top of page two and the end of the first line it says that in regard to the in regards
00:54:31 it says that in regard to the in regards to the events ryden's were sourcing a contractor to get the work done as soon as possible is likely to be after christmas rydens have explained to the lfb that the system is beyond economical repairs and lfb are aware to
00:54:44 economical repairs and lfb are aware to be appropriately equipped when arriving to deal with fires close quotes
00:54:49 quotes had you been informed that the aov was beyond economical repair no were you told that the aov would not be repaired pending the works to upgrade the aov no
00:55:02 pending the works to upgrade the aov no to the best of your knowledge was anyone else on the fire safety team told that the aov would not be repaired pending the works to upgrade the aov no
00:55:15 now we know that the new upgraded aov was not operational until the end of april 2016. was that something about which you were ever made aware of during your time on the fire safety team at kensington
00:55:27 on the fire safety team at kensington and chelsea no so the best of your knowledge was anyone else on that fire safety team made aware of that information no
00:55:38 can i now turn to a separate and different topic and that is auditing the evacuation strategy for vulnerable and disabled residents
00:55:47 residents now if i could ask you to go to lfb trouble zero three two nine three
00:55:59 now this is an lfb fire safety information and guidance note its reference is is it fsine114 and in broad terms can you explain what
00:56:10 and in broad terms can you explain what the purpose of this document was it's too it's not for me to um undertake the the the team plan
00:56:21 um undertake the the the team plan so that that would be for my team leader to prepare the team plan and he'd be better to comment on that than i was okay can you help us just if we can just turn to page six
00:56:33 turn to page six it may be a matter in which you can assist us please say if you can't and if we go to paragraph five point fourteen it's roughly halfway down there is that's inspecting officer
00:56:44 down there is that's inspecting officer is that right that's correct um should and if we go three down from the bottom focus on evacuation strategy especially for those with mobility
00:56:56 especially for those with mobility issues
00:56:57 issues now was the evacuation strategy for disabled persons or vulnerable persons something you assessed during the course of your inspection uh i don't believe it was no why not
00:57:10 that's a good question um i wish i had but in most cases in a general needs block there was very little that the tmo could do in the event of a
00:57:21 that the tmo could do in the event of a fire to assist vulnerable people and i wasn't aware of any vulnerable people who were in that
00:57:29 that building i hadn't been made aware of that now could i just follow up on what you say there you say there was very little that tmo could do in the event of a fire to assist vulnerable people could you put some flesh on that outline
00:57:41 could you put some flesh on that outline answer so the panel understand uh the difficulties you're referring to there of course so if there's a fire in a premises and a person needs to evacuate uh from their their premises
00:57:54 uh from their their premises an alert has to be raised people have to be
00:57:57 be in most cases an individual if they had severe mobility problems may be trapped in their own home now by the time that anybody
00:58:06 anybody would get to them it's highly unlikely that somebody a member of the public a caretaker state services whoever it might be
00:58:15 might be from the tmo would be you know safely able to assist that individual so the focus of fire safety is really to make sure that the
00:58:26 make sure that the the common parts um are available for the people who need not necessarily the fire safety within the house itself it's
00:58:39 it's a difficult area because we know that there are you know difficult individuals have particular problems within their flats and we strove to identify those issues and deal with them
00:58:51 identify those issues and deal with them on a case-by-case basis with our community fire safety teams and how do you deal with it on a case-by-case basis if you can give the panel some practical experience on the issues that are
00:59:02 experience on the issues that are confronted and the difficulties that have to be overcome of course so if an individual for instance is needs assistance to move within their own home maybe they're bed bound
00:59:15 own home maybe they're bed bound maybe if they are at particularly high risk
00:59:19 risk such as a smoker or have a particularly high risk fire behavior maybe they for some reason like to use candles or something
00:59:29 something of that elk then they will look at how they can help that individual maybe giving them fire resistant bedding maybe giving
00:59:39 giving personal suppression systems which are designed to to act around the individual if they're sitting in a particular chair uh just helping them to avoid foot trips
00:59:51 uh just helping them to avoid foot trips and falls for instance um by making sure there's good housekeeping within the flat and the flat is clean and tidy things are put away the practical steps that can be taken thank you mr ramsey um just for the sake
01:00:04 thank you mr ramsey um just for the sake of fairness and context am i right in understanding that inspecting officers are not prompted to assess
01:00:12 assess evacuation strategy for disabled and vulnerable persons in the premises inspection and data form yes are you able to assist us to why that question is not on the premises
01:00:24 that question is not on the premises inspection and data form it may be something for your superiors rather than for you
01:00:28 for you i believe you're correct it's not for me to answer
01:00:32 to answer do you know why though i don't thank you
01:00:39 could i now turn to a separate distinct topic which is the suitability and sufficiency of the 2012 fra so that's the one you provide with after your site visit on the 12th of march 2014. now if we can
01:00:51 on the 12th of march 2014. now if we can turn to
01:00:52 turn to lfb trouble zero eight three eight five six
01:00:55 six forward slash four which should be the premises
01:00:58 premises information form
01:01:02 there we go and in relation to article nine of the order um you say there that the fra was in the observation box you say this undertaken in 2012 by carl stokes due
01:01:13 undertaken in 2012 by carl stokes due for review in jan 14 but not reviewed as of mid-march 14 generally
01:01:18 generally suitable and sufficient however insufficient information provided about the smoke ventilation arrangements emailed to janice ray suggesting this is covered in the impending review confirmed as arranged you recalled that
01:01:30 confirmed as arranged you recalled that it was broadly compliant on the left hand side do you remember why the information was insufficient about the smoke ventilation system you may well have answered this but i just want to put the point directly to
01:01:42 i just want to put the point directly to you
01:01:45 it didn't evaluate whether the existing system was suitable for purpose it didn't comment on the maintenance arrangements
01:01:56 comment on the maintenance arrangements to any suitable degree and i'd seen very obvious deficiencies that anybody walking around the building would have seen
01:02:06 seen and for me it just had the whole area of smoke ventilation to common parts have been given in sufficient consideration notwithstanding those points
01:02:19 notwithstanding those points how was the compliance level of broadly compliant reached was that something again that was determined automatically by the software or was it your qualitative judgment on what you'd seen
01:02:30 judgment on what you'd seen this was my judgment so that wasn't the software
01:02:33 software so can you help us then notwithstanding the various deficiencies and emissions you'd found why you reached nonetheless the view that compliance was broad or broadly compliant yeah
01:02:47 it it's up to each individual officers to
01:02:50 to determine what is broadly compliant um there was this one area of weakness a particular weakness which i've made comment to note and i followed up
01:03:01 made comment to note and i followed up with janice i think if i had i think this is maybe a little bit of gaming the system as well if i had made it a higher
01:03:12 as well if i had made it a higher priority
01:03:12 priority at this point the the audit form would have probably indicated that an enforcement notice was what was more appropriate
01:03:25 was what was more appropriate to issue on the premises i was on the basis that i was aware that there were plans to make significant improvements through the refurbishment i didn't feel an enforcement notice was appropriate i thought that was too heavy-handed
01:03:36 heavy-handed where there were plans in place and so i took this approach thank you mr ramsey could we turn to a separate document now which is cst quadruple zero three double one five and it's an email
01:03:49 three double one five and it's an email you sent to january on the 14th of march we've looked at just a few moments ago and if we look at the first line if we can expand that if we look at the
01:04:00 if we can expand that if we look at the first line said i'm assuming it so the fra wasn't reviewed in jan 14 as per the front cover and then you say no great problem there as little has changed especially for the
01:04:11 as little has changed especially for the residential areas i would suggest we ask karl to review the fra as it relates to the smoke control system why was a review of the fra as it related to the smoke control
01:04:22 related to the smoke control system necessary was it because of the issues you just identified yes and that the the system i wanted to be sure that the tmo had evaluated the system as being
01:04:35 tmo had evaluated the system as being suitable for the premises no time frame for the fra review seems to have been set out there did you suggest a deadline for review of the fra
01:04:46 the fra no i don't believe i did and why not i believe in conversations that i knew it was um ready to be reviewed and i i believe in my conversations with
01:04:58 and i i believe in my conversations with janice that i had received assurances that this would be reviewed thank you can i now turn to lfb triple zero
01:05:05 zero eight three eight five six forward slash 10
01:05:13 and this again is the premises information form and if we see in the audit conclusions box which is the last half of the penultimate line you say fra reported as to be imminently
01:05:26 you say fra reported as to be imminently reviewed given the absence of a time frame why did you say the fra was to be imminently reviewed i believe what i'm saying here is that
01:05:38 i believe what i'm saying here is that genesis reported to me that the fra is to be reviewed imminently thank you um if we can go now to cst quadruple zero two five one three
01:05:54 and if we go to the middle of the page you'll see this is email correspondence between ray and stokes you're not copied in
01:06:01 in it's sent on the 14th of march 2014 and janice ray ford your email to carl stokes and wrote i don't and this in the second sentence i don't actually think there is much
01:06:12 i don't actually think there is much point in
01:06:12 point in asking you to redo the fra and view the imminent works when what he is really anxious about is uh reinstating the vati i think she means the vanta there
01:06:23 means the vanta there now in fact we know that the fra was only completed on the 17th of october 2014
01:06:29 2014 um some five minute months or more after this correspondence was a review in october 2014 consistent with the spirit of the
01:06:40 consistent with the spirit of the concerns you'd outlined in relation to the smoke control system no when would you have considered it to have been reasonable to have completed the review given what you
01:06:51 completed the review given what you identified i would have expected that review
01:06:55 review to have begun at least within the next month
01:06:58 month if you'd known that the review would not be done
01:07:02 be done until october 2014 would that have informed
01:07:05 informed or changed the approach you took to enforcement action yes in what regards uh had i known that they were taking the the replacement or the repair of the
01:07:16 repair of the um the ventilation system so lightly i would have certainly issued an enforcement letter or recommended that an enforcement notice be issued and the decision as to whether that
01:07:28 and the decision as to whether that notice should be issued was one for your team leader is that right yes it would be rare for my team leader to
01:07:35 to uh to change the decision that i'd made but nonetheless he or she had that discretion absolutely yes now can i turn to a separate distinct topic which is concerns about
01:07:46 topic which is concerns about the tmo and carl stokes and could i ask you to turn to the third statement you prepared for the police which is at met trouble double 0-7100 three forward slash five and the third
01:07:58 three forward slash five and the third paragraph
01:08:01 you say in the opening lines we've looked at the balance of this paragraph earlier but you say in the opening lines my relationship with janice and carl over the years had at times been prickly
01:08:12 over the years had at times been prickly i've had disagreements with carl over the various ways he approaches things and the local authority didn't like the way i approached enforcement especially as i've been forced to give them several enforcement notices
01:08:23 them several enforcement notices and notices of fire safety deficiencies over the years and if we can turn to your second statement to the inquiry which is a lfb triple zero eight three eight double five
01:08:34 eight double five forward slash eight and paragraph twenty one
01:08:39 one in the third line you say this and i quote
01:08:42 quote i generally maintained a good relationship with carl on occasion he would be difficult and would seek to rely on the lack of brigade comments or an alternative view on a previous inspection as justification
01:08:54 inspection as justification for the adequacy of fire safety measures at the given premises and if we get over the page to the last line
01:09:01 line you say this i recall conversations with other members of my team who had similar concerns about this aspect of carl's approach now can you
01:09:12 of carl's approach now can you give the panel the gist of the difficulties you'd encountered with carl stokes
01:09:16 stokes that you refer to in your statement to the police yes so when i found a deficiency such as let's take the the ventilation system at grenfell tower
01:09:29 the ventilation system at grenfell tower the fact that a previous inspecting officer may not have made similar comments to mine or similar observations to mine
01:09:36 to mine he would use that as an argument to suggest that what you didn't find it a problem last time why are you finding a problem this time so he would challenge the the inspection on that basis um
01:09:49 on that basis um as we've noted that we didn't always inspect
01:09:52 inspect the whole of a premises we took a sampling approach so there were times when when things were were not seen during one inspection and were seen in the next
01:10:03 can you now remember which other team members had similar concerns to mr about mr stokes i recall discussing this with ben dewis with robert mctag with probably james
01:10:16 with robert mctag with probably james swindell and possibly other members of the team
01:10:18 the team as well and were there concerns of a similar nature very similar
01:10:27 how if at all were those concerns raised within the fire safety team we would all have a free conversation with our team leaders at that point so if i had that concern i
01:10:39 at that point so if i had that concern i would have discussed that with nick comrey initially then with rebecca burton
01:10:44 burton i would expect those concerns to be raised at the bi-monthly team meetings and were you given assurances that those concerns were in fact raised by mr comray and miss burton in team in the
01:10:55 mr comray and miss burton in team in the bi-monthly meeting not directly were you satisfied that they've done enough to act upon the concerns that have been shared by you and other members of the
01:11:06 shared by you and other members of the fire safety team all i can say is i think they understood the team's concerns and had enough information to take that forward thank you can i now turn to cst
01:11:18 thank you can i now turn to cst quadruple zero three one five seven forward slash eight and if we look at the last paragraph i
01:11:30 and if we look at the last paragraph i should say this is the fra of october 2014 in relation to the tower carried out by mr stokes and he said this and i quote in relation to your visit on the 12th of
01:11:42 in relation to your visit on the 12th of march 2014 the fire officers did not comment either at the time of the audit or any correspondence after the audit about the building's layout the means of escape routes compartmentation etcetera
01:11:54 escape routes compartmentation etcetera nor were there any comments about the positioning or citing the fixed systems within the building only about the maintenance of the systems no adverse comments were received about received either about the management policies procedures and arrangements in
01:12:06 policies procedures and arrangements in place within this building at the time of the audit therefore is has been assumed that the fire authority were completely satisfied with these arrangements at the time of the audit and there have been no changes to the residential part
01:12:18 been no changes to the residential part of the premises or the tmo's management policies or procedures since the above fire safety audit was undertaken did you ever see the october 2014 fra yes is his description about what you
01:12:31 yes is his description about what you and or david daniel halsey did or did not comment on correct
01:12:35 correct absolutely no in what ways was it incorrect
01:12:39 incorrect well i'd already highlighted deficiencies with the training of staff members and the procedures in relation to training about maintenance issues in relation to
01:12:52 about maintenance issues in relation to and that maintenance issues are seen as management arrangements in our view about emergency lighting uh and about the smoke management system um
01:13:02 um so i i don't believe i don't believe those comments are accurate now you've touched on the substance in previous answers but i'd like to ask you directly is mr stokes correct to say
01:13:13 you directly is mr stokes correct to say that if the lfb didn't specifically comment
01:13:17 comment or didn't comment adversely on any relevant arrangements it was quotes completely satisfied close quotes with those arrangements no and that's for the reasons you've given earlier yes
01:13:29 earlier yes did you give any assurance to that effect to janus rail carl stokes either relation to grenfell inspection on march 2014 or indeed on any other occasion no can i now turn to the enforcement
01:13:43 no can i now turn to the enforcement notice issued in relation to a dare tower
01:13:45 tower and can i ask you to turn to rbk quadruple zero double two seven three
01:13:56 now this is the enforcement notice issued in relation to a dare
01:14:03 and i think it was served in december 2015 is that right yes and if we go to page two
01:14:11 we can see in the bottom third of the page reply to inspecting officer matthew ramsey
01:14:17 ramsey yes
01:14:21 now at page two and if we could de-amplify it states the notice has been copied to janus ray in the housing department of rbkc
01:14:30 rbkc why did you copy the housing department of rbkc
01:14:33 of rbkc when you served or and issued the enforcement notice similar to the reply i gave earlier that's that's the instructions i received from my team leaders
01:14:44 received from my team leaders and again were you given any explanations to why he required that uh patent to be followed i think there was a an understanding that both the tmo
01:14:55 that both the tmo and rbkc had responsibilities in respect to the premises this is an enforcement notice
01:15:00 notice it's a serious um letter and it needed to be made known to to those both organizations mr ramsey thank you sir i've reached the
01:15:11 mr ramsey thank you sir i've reached the end of my
01:15:12 end of my uh prepared questions uh might i have the usual opportunity to see if i've missed out anything or indeed were there any other relevant questions that anyone else would like me to ask yes that's a very convenient point we were going to have a break in the morning
01:15:24 going to have a break in the morning about this time anyway mr ramsey but we always have a break at the end of council's questions just to let him check he hasn't overlooked anything or to see if other people who are not
01:15:35 are not actually in the room want to suggest further questions so we'll we'll have a break now how long do you think you might need for questions ten minutes sir well i'm going to say how fast 11 so we can all have a break
01:15:47 how fast 11 so we can all have a break so we'll come back please mr ramsey at half lost 11 and see if there are any more questions for you while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it
01:15:58 evidence or anything relating to it that's right good would you like to give the usher then please
01:16:11 thank you very much
01:31:20 yes would you ask mr randy to come back in please
01:31:33 all right mr ramsey well we'll see if there are any more questions for you yes mr canoe mr ramsey may be pleased to relieve to know there are no further questions
01:31:41 questions and the only thing that leaves it for me to say is to say thank you very much for attending the inquiry today it's much appreciated thank you yes and i should thank you as well mr ramsey on behalf of myself and the rest of the panel it's
01:31:52 myself and the rest of the panel it's always very useful to hear what people who are directly involved in these things have to say and we're very grateful to you for coming up today to give your evidence i hope it hasn't inconvenienced you too much
01:32:04 inconvenienced you too much but we've certainly found it useful too thank you very much indeed thank you for the opportunity thank you
01:32:21 now mr kunil we've got another witness waiting to give evidence is that right we do sir and so i might ask you to rise and just thought well i think we'll have to rise for a moment because we have to make preparations for a change of
01:32:33 make preparations for a change of witness
01:32:33 witness and so on thank you so we'll do that and then we'll move on as swiftly as we can so perhaps you can ask the usher to come and tell us when you're ready i shall do so thanks thank you very much
01:41:01 [Applause] yes mr kenya no your next witness uh andrew japles good thank you
01:41:23 good morning mr jack i understand you're going to take the oath so there should be a testament there would you take it in your right hand and read the words on the screen please i swear by almighty god the evidence i
01:41:35 i swear by almighty god the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now sit down make yourself comfortable thank you
01:41:49 right yes mr cleo when you're ready would you please confirm your name for the record andrew jack good morning mr jack thank you for attending uh today um three bits of advice before we start
01:42:01 um three bits of advice before we start first of all if any time during the course of examination you require a break please say so that's not a problem secondly if at any time my question is unclear
01:42:10 unclear again don't hesitate to say so and i'll attempt to rephrase it so it is clear thirdly would you mind keeping your voice up that's so that the shorthand writer can capture everything
01:42:21 shorthand writer can capture everything you say and everything you say accurately now you have made three statements following the fire at grenfell tower is that right it is and if we go to the first which is a
01:42:32 and if we go to the first which is a metropolitan police statement dated the 7th of may 2019 which is a met triple zero four treble zero one forward slash two
01:42:43 treble zero one forward slash two so don't need to do the forward slash that's the statement it is and could we go to lfb triple zero three double two double four
01:42:54 three double two double four is that your first statement to this inquiry date of the 29th of january 2019 it is thirdly and finally lfb double zero
01:43:03 zero one two zero three zero eight and is that your second statement to this inquiry dated the 5th of february 2021.
01:43:11 2021. it is have you read those statements recently i have and uh subject to any clarifications and corrections which if relevant will come to
01:43:19 to are the contents true they are thank you and are you content for those statements to stand as your evidence of this inquiry
01:43:26 inquiry i am thank you now first of all can i ask you about your role at the london fire brigade um is it right that you began working for the london fire and emergency planning authority and the commissioner in the fire safety
01:43:38 and the commissioner in the fire safety regulation department on the 1st of may 2007. that's correct and you explained that you were initially at least a specialist advisor in respect to fire safety regulatory
01:43:49 in respect to fire safety regulatory matters
01:43:49 matters is that right that's correct and can you help the
01:43:53 help the panel in broad terms what did that role involve
01:43:57 involve uh initially it was review of how the brigade was implementing the regulatory reform fire safety order assisting with interpretation to allow for policies to be developed and
01:44:08 for policies to be developed and adjusted
01:44:09 adjusted as i believe the inquiry knows i was one of the authors of the fire safety order in a previous life and they asked me to assist on that basis thanks you then say that your current role is
01:44:20 you then say that your current role is that of head of fire safety enforcement a role which you've held since the first of july 2010 is that right it is although i've recently moved to be strategic technical advisor as i think i
01:44:32 strategic technical advisor as i think i mentioned
01:44:33 mentioned my last statement and uh what was the gist of the responsibilities of your position as head of fire safety enforcement with the lfb uh two principal areas one was the oversight of investigations of potential
01:44:45 oversight of investigations of potential offences
01:44:47 offences carrying those forward through a small team the other was to assist with more difficult enforcement problems and also take an overview of
01:44:58 problems and also take an overview of enforcement activity in terms of the quality of notices very a fair amount within that but principally those areas thank you how did your role sit in the
01:45:09 thank you how did your role sit in the hierarchy compared to the likes of nicholas comrie and rebecca burton who were team leaders of fire safety and in their respective boroughs
01:45:16 boroughs uh the role was graded at frsg which by comparison to rebecca a team leader would be an e and f would be an area manager uh nick comery that's operational
01:45:27 uh nick comery that's operational equivalent to station commander or station manager at that time i reported to one of the deputy assistant commissioners for the majority of my work and to the assistant commissioner for small parts
01:45:38 assistant commissioner for small parts of it
01:45:39 of it thank you in um just to clarify one point in in paragraph 10 of your inquiry statement of january 2019 you describe yourself as the head of the central regulatory enforcement group of the lfb
01:45:50 the lfb is that any difference to the head of fire safety enforcement no the head of fire safety enforcement hits that group was it in respect of those two roles that you had dealings with rbkc
01:46:02 that you had dealings with rbkc tmo and carl stokes it was
01:46:06 now can i um now start to look in more detail about the substance of the contact you had with those three bodies and particularly in the context of flat entrance doors
01:46:17 entrance doors now did the lfb consider that the guidance for responsible persons about standards for flat entrance doors in purpose-built blocks were primarily those set out in the lga's guide
01:46:28 those set out in the lga's guide primarily yes it had overtaken the government guide in that regard were you familiar with the substance and requirements of the guide reasonably so it wasn't part of my day-to-day duties would you have expected responsible
01:46:39 would you have expected responsible persons to have been familiar with the substance of the guide absolutely and fire risk assessors they may retain absolutely now at page three of your met statement of paragraph
01:46:50 statement of paragraph two we don't need to go to it but the reference is met trouble zero four trouble zero one forward slash three
01:46:57 three lines one to seven you say this and i quote
01:47:00 quote my specific dealings with rbkc tmo and carl stokes originally rose around september 2012 through the lfb fire safety team leader for the borough station manager nicholas comrie sm comray was in
01:47:13 nicholas comrie sm comray was in discussion with the tmo about improvements to flat front doors protecting means of escape in case of fire in blocks of flats under their control
01:47:21 control and in particular about which enforcing authority rbkc or elfipa should act in respect of this provision of suitably fire existing doors that were self-closing this particularly related doors that
01:47:32 this particularly related doors that were demised to individual leaseholders had you had any involvement with that issue before then it's always been a problem so the national protocol was brought in
01:47:46 the national protocol was brought in and we sought to have with all the different boroughs it was a known problem from the first days of the order around who would enforce the overlap between the housing act and the regulator reform fire safety order
01:47:57 regulator reform fire safety order and can i take it from that when you say it's always been a problem by that you mean it's not been a problem specific to our bkc it's been a broader application there there is a broad issue with the
01:48:08 there there is a broad issue with the overlap of the housing act and fire safety order but it wasn't an rbkc specific issue no and why were you involved or brought in at this stage in relation to rbkc tmo and carl stokes
01:48:21 rbkc tmo and carl stokes so far as i can recall it was because there was disagreement around who should enforce in any particular case and with my knowledge fire safety order
01:48:32 and with my knowledge fire safety order i was asked to look at what was being said and former view
01:48:37 view and former view about saying what what should the brigade's position be in and report that through to others including the assistant
01:48:48 others including the assistant commissioner um did that involve you having to take a view as to who was the responsible person in relation to housing stock managed by the tmo on behalf of rbkc he did and what was that view that you
01:49:00 he did and what was that view that you reached
01:49:01 reached a very difficult one i'm afraid i don't believe i ever got all of the papers my personal view is the responsible person in the true sense
01:49:10 sense is the royal borough of kensington and chelsea
01:49:13 chelsea but their tenant management organization is their 5-3 person and in reality there is little to choose between them in terms of responsibility given the
01:49:24 in terms of responsibility given the level of responsibility applied by article 5
01:49:26 article 5 3. thank you now can i turn to the very specific topic of the meeting on the 8th of november 2012 between yourself rbkc and the tmo now in
01:49:37 yourself rbkc and the tmo now in your police witness statement we don't need to go to it but the reference is met trouble zero four trouble zero one forward slash six last paragraph you deal with the meeting that you
01:49:48 you deal with the meeting that you attended on the eighth of november with rbkc tmo and lfb to discuss enforcement against leaseholders in respect of flat entrance doors which were not compliant with the relevant fire safety standards is that a fair
01:49:59 fire safety standards is that a fair summary it is um what was your role intended to be at least by the lfb at the meeting it was that we took the view that the royal borough should be
01:50:10 view that the royal borough should be enforcing as responsible person and i think there was a a degree of issue around how they were approaching that
01:50:19 that so it was to represent the brigade position and discuss with them how enforcement matters should be taken forward between us and what was nicholas comey's role intended to be at the meeting uh he was
01:50:31 intended to be at the meeting uh he was the effectively facilitated the meeting as i recall it and matthew ramsey i was brought along by nicholas cummery now in your second sorry in the second paragraph of your
01:50:43 sorry in the second paragraph of your met statement it's page 15 and you say again we don't need to go to it but you say that an additional conversation took place after the meeting about the leasehold enforcement issue it closed
01:50:54 enforcement issue it closed the contents of which you then set out at pages 15 to 20 off that statement now you say that janice ray is correct to say
01:51:01 to say that an additional conversation took place after the close of the meeting to discuss
01:51:05 discuss enforcement in respect to flat front doors
01:51:08 doors i recall these quite well due to the nature of the discussions the context they were in following on from the meeting with rbkc lawyers because much of what was said formed the basis for further discussion with
01:51:19 basis for further discussion with others within the department with other house providers and fire risk assessors now who was present for that additional conversation
01:51:29 i believe when i wrote that statement it was janice ray a risk assessor nicholas comery and myself
01:51:38 myself and the matt ramsey may have been present at the beginning having heard the evidence of ms ray and mr ramsey i'm still reasonably convinced that they were both present at the beginning
01:51:49 they were both present at the beginning of that second session but may have left further part way through it i'm afraid i really don't recall at this stage for this point in time now who initiated the additional conversation
01:52:01 the additional conversation carl stokes and remember what he opened with
01:52:07 with i think it was words to the effect of there's a couple of matters i'd like to discuss with you now if i can take you to lfb triple zero five four six five three
01:52:18 and if we look at the bottom half of that page
01:52:23 now we can see that rebecca burton emailed you and others on the 1st of november 2015 and we'll come back to that email in more detail later
01:52:34 more detail later but for now can i ask you to look at your initial reply uh which is at lfb quadruple zero double three
01:52:41 three seven five
01:52:47 and we see second paragraph first line you say this the meeting was to discuss enforcement generally in relation to flat front doors
01:52:56 doors then if we skip to the third line then my memory is pretty good too much time has gone by to say if anything further was discussed do you remember that email i do
01:53:07 do you remember that email i do now can you help us understand why in november 2015 your memory was not so good as to allow you to give much detail but
01:53:18 as to allow you to give much detail but over 19 months later you were able to record it in some detail in your police statement
01:53:23 statement following the fire certainly it was that i'd had much greater opportunity to go back through old documents and through those that had caused me to recollect it and elements that were said
01:53:36 recollect it and elements that were said it may help if i say that it is visual prompts through emails that tend to prompt my memory to a very great extent at this point in replying to rebecca i have not seen i've been able to find very much
01:53:47 i've been able to find very much information about that thank you now can we go to your met statement which is at matt trouble zero for trouble zero one forward slash 19
01:53:58 for trouble zero one forward slash 19 and it's the first sentence on that page where you say this and i quote by my recollection we further discuss the issue of doors and door closes in relation to the maintenance and management requirements of the
01:54:10 management requirements of the rrfso under article 17 and article 11. the point being made by me that collectively there was a need not only to maintain doors and self-closing devices in an efficient state and good working order but this should be subject
01:54:22 working order but this should be subject to effective planning organization control monitoring and review
01:54:27 review the extent of the monitoring and maintenance regime would need to be circumstances specific so that sufficient checks of the ongoing functionality of the fire resisting doors
01:54:36 doors and self-closing devices could be monitored and necessary remedial action undertaken in a timely manner now during the discussion did you discuss
01:54:45 discuss the substance of the monitoring and maintenance regime which should be put in place by the tma i cannot recall in detail i think this was a matter brought up by carl stokes
01:54:56 was a matter brought up by carl stokes around what maintenance was we had the lga guide with us i think and nick comray is my technical advisor in particular so i think we did within broad terms
01:55:09 so i think we did within broad terms what did you mean when you said it should be quote circumstances specific close quotes particularly and clearly there are normally expected standards for ongoing checks and maintenance in case of flat
01:55:21 checks and maintenance in case of flat front doors i think correctly that is six monthly but there could be
01:55:27 could be examples within blocks that would initiate much more regular checks particularly vandalism arson things like that which may mean that that standard is actually not good enough
01:55:37 enough and you need to do more so you're absolutely clear that frequency of checks
01:55:41 checks was considered and discussed i'm quite certain that it was did you discuss what types of checks or inspections would be required i'm afraid i can't recall did you
01:55:53 i'm afraid i can't recall did you discuss who would be expected to carry out the checks or inspections on on the doors and self-closing devices i mean it would be within the tmos remit to have that done that they did throw so through a
01:56:04 that they did throw so through a contractor or members of their staff would not have been an issue for me was the tmos flat entrance door replacement program discussed in the context i.e what the maintenance monitoring requirements were for the replacement
01:56:16 requirements were for the replacement doors
01:56:17 doors not in that context though from that discussion i was aware there was a door maintenance program and we but were you were sorry not maintenance program replacing i beg your pardon my fault replacement program thank you
01:56:28 program thank you and at that stage had you been given any um information as to how far gone that replacement program was and what the maintenance regime was and replaced in respect of those new doors not that i
01:56:41 in respect of those new doors not that i can recall did you discuss what monitoring maintenance requirements were in place by the f by the tmo at that stage we may have done but i'm afraid i can't
01:56:53 we may have done but i'm afraid i can't recall that detail you said you had the lga guide before you
01:56:59 you can you remember now where you whether you drew the tmo's specific attention to paragraphs 82.3 and 82.4 regarding the regularity of the six monthly basis for the maintenance and inspection
01:57:11 for the maintenance and inspection program if my memory serves me correctly it was actually carl stokes to have the copy of the guide with him we had come into the meeting without i cannot recall whether we specifically
01:57:23 i cannot recall whether we specifically went to that paragraph now can you remember whether he took you to those paragraphs i'm sorry i can't yeah can you remember apologies if i'm pushing my luck can you remember what impression he gave you of his
01:57:34 what impression he gave you of his familiarity with the substance of the requirements respect of maintenance and monitoring in relation to flat entrance doors set out in the guide i can't recall anything that led me to think he was not familiar with
01:57:47 think he was not familiar with what have been quite standard requirements for many years and can you remember what response the tmo gave to you when you set out what you thought a proper suitable and sufficient
01:57:58 a proper suitable and sufficient maintenance monitoring program should look like
01:58:02 i believe they considered it would be difficult to achieve because of the nature of the buildings and what was your response to that that it was nonetheless what they needed to do it was the legal requirement
01:58:16 now if we stay in this statement and in particular this paragraph and we go to the eighth line down it starts with the words my recollection and you go and say this
01:58:28 my recollection and you go and say this my recollection is that it was at this point that checking of fire resisting car park
01:58:32 car park fire resisting compartmentation generally as part of the fire risk assessment process was also discussed the point being raised though i cannot recall by whom that gaining access to flats to undertake
01:58:43 flats to undertake any sort of intrusive check such as drilling into ceilings to confirm that construction and fire resistance was difficult and maybe contrary to the terms of lease or tenancy i highlighted the possibility of
01:58:54 i highlighted the possibility of carrying out these types of checks in flats
01:58:56 flats which had become vacant or as it is known a void did that discussion about checking of fire resisting compartmentation generally
01:59:04 generally include checks to flat entrance doors and self-closing devices specifically in the latter part of what i say in the paragraph the the primary element was where insufficient information was
01:59:15 was where insufficient information was known about a building or they the responsible personal risk assessor had caused to think
01:59:21 think there may be something they weren't aware of there was an opportunity without disturbing leaseholders or tenants
01:59:26 tenants generally to be able to carry out a thorough and potentially more intrusive check of the structure levels of fire protection and so forth within a flat without causing inconvenience to others
01:59:37 without causing inconvenience to others and does it flow from that answer the types of checks referred to in this paragraph
01:59:42 paragraph referred both to far compartmentation flat entrance doors and other matters as well uh could you expand what you mean by other matters well well take it fire compartmentation
01:59:53 well well take it fire compartmentation first of all you use the word comprehensive yes so what i was trying to do is draw out all other matters i follow yes uh if they were going to look in a void flat they would have
02:00:04 void flat they would have good opportunity to be able to expose behind meters drill into ceilings to see what depth of plasterboard or other type of ceiling might be there open up areas such as around soil pipes
02:00:16 open up areas such as around soil pipes which have been a bone of contention not with rbkc in fact but others around what was covered and actually check things like that including getting into if there was a communal heating system
02:00:28 if there was a communal heating system ventilation system such as have been looked at at la canal that those things would could be readily checked from a void flat would be much more difficult to do from a tenanted flat thank you mr jack just
02:00:39 a tenanted flat thank you mr jack just following on from that answer about the types of checks that ought to be carried out you say in the same paragraph fourth line from the end of the paragraph you say this another check that i was
02:00:50 you say this another check that i was aware of being applied was a less intrusive check of the soft closer and any obvious compartmentation issues such as fire stopping around paperwork which is done at the time of a landlord's gas safety check
02:01:02 landlord's gas safety check though clearly that would not be applicable in all cases now why did you consider that checking the self-closer device during the landlord's gas safety check would be sufficient i didn't consider it to be sufficient
02:01:13 didn't consider it to be sufficient as an entire check or maintenance regime this was something which in terms of enforcement we are required under the enforcement concordat and his later models to seek to enforce
02:01:27 and his later models to seek to enforce proportionately in a reasonable manner where we don't over impose burdens the same really applies for the responsible person if there was an opportunity to enter the flats while doing another
02:01:39 to enter the flats while doing another check it might make it easier to gain access
02:01:43 access generally if you're looking at twice a year once
02:01:47 year once look at the self closes and anything else once where you were already going to a gas safety check you would not then necessarily need to go in a third time just to conduct the self-closure check
02:01:58 self-closure check you could incorporate the two together that was what i was getting thank you were any other options for carrying out internal flat entrance door checks discussed at the meeting not that i recall
02:02:10 meeting not that i recall was any agreement reached at the meeting as to what the tmo's maintenance monitoring regime for flat entrance stores should be no at any point did you discuss what checks
02:02:21 at any point did you discuss what checks of flat entrance doors and self-closing devices the lfb expected to be carried out
02:02:26 out during a fire risk assessment i'm afraid i can't recall whether that would have come under mr commery though i would have no doubt contributed but i can't recall
02:02:37 no doubt contributed but i can't recall if we did
02:02:38 if we did now if we turn stay in the statement and turn over the page to page 20 and the second paragraph from the bottom
02:02:48 it starts with the words at the closing of the meeting you go and say i believe carl stokes summarized the discussions from his notes
02:02:55 notes and said he would make arrangements with sm comery
02:02:58 sm comery for the premises that had been discussed to be visited by him and sm comrie or his team
02:03:03 his team he and janice ray would also look into the use of void flats to check construction and fire compartmentation now by saying you would look into the use of void flats to check construction fire
02:03:14 flats to check construction fire compartmentation did you understand that to include checks to flat entrance stores and self-closing devices i think i would have assumed it to a thorough look at that flat and what
02:03:25 a thorough look at that flat and what was in it
02:03:26 was in it you say assume did you make clear your assumption to mr stokes and miss ray at this point in time afraid i couldn't say thank you now can i turn to a separate
02:03:38 thank you now can i turn to a separate topic which is an email from janice ray to matthew ramsey on the 18th of december 2013 and if i could ask you to turn to lfb quadruple 0-3534
02:03:50 and it's an email we looked at with mr ramsey and you'll see there item one where miss ray set out their regime that was applied and
02:04:02 out their regime that was applied and she noted mr ramsey's concern about self-closing devices and said this i would reiterate in the second line i would reiterate our approach to flat entrance doors which as i believe you are aware
02:04:13 are aware has been discussed with your colleagues at the lfb consistently over recent years
02:04:17 years and again at our regular meeting yesterday specifically in relation to the 10th
02:04:22 the 10th to tenants door our approach is as follows when replacement flat entrance doors are fitted they are fire rated and self-closing when properties become void self-closures will be reinstated installed as necessary at other times
02:04:35 installed as necessary at other times when major work has been undertaken in a dwelling
02:04:38 dwelling the self-closer will be reinstated if it has been disconnected my first question is do you recall ever seeing this email was it ever forwarded to you
02:04:47 to you not that i recalled i have seen it since now it suggests that for doors with self-closures installed or fitted those self-closures would only be inspected and reinstated if necessary when the property became void or major
02:04:59 when the property became void or major work was undertaken the first and obvious question is did you consider that approach to be consistent with the advice and guidance you'd given at the meeting on the 8th of november
02:05:10 at the meeting on the 8th of november 2012. no
02:05:13 2012. no can you help the panel as to in which respects you consider this approach to be lacking this appears from the three bullet points that suggest that this would be the only maintenance regime being conducted
02:05:26 maintenance regime being conducted i would not consider that to be suitable because it would leave far too much time potentially between checks this would appear to state that somebody may have moved into a flat 30
02:05:37 somebody may have moved into a flat 30 years ago and it will never be checked until
02:05:40 until they have moved out in five years time as a new tenant moves in that will be wholly unacceptable in your discussion with the tmo and rbkc had you
02:05:51 with the tmo and rbkc had you approved the approach which ms ray summarizes there no to the best of your knowledge do you know whether anyone in the lfb who had dealings with the tmo
02:06:00 the tmo approved such an approach i do not know of anybody who has and i cannot think of anybody who would
02:06:10 who would can you tell me with this did the lfb actually give
02:06:15 bodies who are operating flat large buildings any advice as to what you would regard as an appropriate maintenance regime in practical terms
02:06:30 maintenance regime in practical terms i think there may have been something within
02:06:34 within one or more of the guidance notes issued by the brigade in respect to flat front doors but i would need to check i'm afraid so it's i mean it's very easy to say well you must check your doors every six months but yes the the response is
02:06:48 six months but yes the the response is how and what's the answer to that question
02:06:53 question i'm afraid i think that is one that with the
02:06:57 the different working methodologies of landlords leases and tenants we expected them to come to a view on how they would be able to achieve it rather than seeking to direct
02:07:08 achieve it rather than seeking to direct things that they must do in that regard that may not have been ideal
02:07:14 ideal sounds like a problem was too difficult for you to suggest the answer to i certainly think the the comeback one gets from
02:07:24 property owners around anything which is brought forward such as that can be problematic all right thank you thank you can i now turn to a separate
02:07:35 thank you can i now turn to a separate topic which is contact and communication with rebecca burton now if we stay in sorry if we go back to your met
02:07:43 your met statements that's met triple zero four triple zero one forward slash fourteen
02:07:52 and the second paragraph on on that page you deal with an email rebecca burton sent you nicholas comrey and nicholas coombe
02:07:58 coombe on the 1st november 2015 and which we looked at earlier and if we can go to that email which is lfb treble 0-54653 forward slash one
02:08:10 we see in the third sentence sorry third paragraph first sentence
02:08:17 ms burton explained that recent inspections of tmo properties had shown that a significant number of flat entrance doors were not self-closing and she referred to a comment in karl stokes's fra for a dare tower
02:08:29 stokes's fra for a dare tower the flat entrance doors are not self-closing and this is in agreement with the lfb she explained that janice ray had provided details of the meeting on 8th of november 2012
02:08:40 of november 2012 incorrectly stated there i think to be 8th in november 2015 where this agreement was apparently reached
02:08:47 reached and raised concern about the lfb's change of position rebecca burton sought information from you mr comrade mr coombe as to what was discussed at the meeting in november 2012.
02:08:59 in november 2012. my first question is this what did you make of the suggestion by carl stokes and janice ray that the lfb had quotes agreed at the meeting on 8th of november 2012 that self-closing devices were not
02:09:10 that self-closing devices were not required on existing flat front entrance doors frankly sir i was
02:09:16 shocked and could you amplify the reasons for your shock firstly that i was quite certain that i am quite certain that no such agreement was given
02:09:28 that no such agreement was given secondly that mr stokes is a former serving fire officer that he has
02:09:34 has experience of such matters has seen the devastation that can be caused by non-closing self fire doors i was as i say quite shocked that he would
02:09:45 as i say quite shocked that he would come to any conclusion that doors should not be self-closing thank you
02:09:52 thank you can i now turn to a separate topic which would review the tmo fire safety strategy
02:09:56 strategy that touched upon flat entrance doors and if i could ask you to go back to your met statement which is at met trouble zero four trouble zero one forward slash 21 and the third paragraph on that page
02:10:11 21 and the third paragraph on that page and there you explained that after the fire rebecca burton provided various documents to your request including set out in the final line the tmo fire safety policy or strategy
02:10:22 the tmo fire safety policy or strategy of september 2013 and which you say over the page at page 22 and third paragraph down you reviewed is that a fair summary of your evidence on that i believe so yes now if we can go to
02:10:35 i believe so yes now if we can go to page 24 of this statement at the very bottom
02:10:41 bottom you set out section 17.3 of the 2013 tmo fire safety strategy entitled lfb required standards for flat entrance doors within the closed blocks
02:10:52 doors within the closed blocks it does not set out a policy for the monitoring maintenance of flat entrance doors
02:10:57 doors is that something is that a topic you would have expected to have seen in a fire safety strategy i would in as part of an overall maintenance regime fire doors would should clearly be within it and
02:11:09 should clearly be within it and presumably particularly so after you'd met the tmo in the rbkc to discuss that very issue in november 2012. we had met to discuss doors and the matter of them needing to be
02:11:21 matter of them needing to be fully functioning was a primary element of that meeting thank you now could we look at the 2017 tmo fire safety strategy which was or seems to have been improved on the 13th
02:11:32 seems to have been improved on the 13th of june 2017 and that can be found at tmo double 0-847-324
02:11:38 0-847-324 forward slash 12.
02:11:46 now this says that you see roughly halfway down that page the tmo has a variety of ongoing methods of ensuring that
02:11:57 of ongoing methods of ensuring that self-closing devices remain in place and remain operational these include but are not confined to included in works to all void empty properties in advance of new tenant
02:12:08 properties in advance of new tenant moving in
02:12:09 moving in included in six monthly checks of all sheltered dwellings included in monthly inspections of all temporary accommodation when undertaking comprehensive fra reviews
02:12:20 reviews the assessor access permitting will inspect a number of flat entrance doors and the self-closing devices now is that approach consistent with the advice and guidance you gave
02:12:32 advice and guidance you gave in the november 2012 meeting that does appear to be very much what we said or what i believe we said
02:12:40 and for the avoidance of that would it follow that you considered that to be compliant with the requirements of the 2005 order i believe it would although i note here
02:12:51 i believe it would although i note here it does say it's only six monthly checks of all sheltered dwellings i was about to come on to that if it were applied to all the flats i would say yes because it misses out general needs
02:13:02 because it misses out general needs housing
02:13:04 housing you consider that to be a material emission fraud the maintenance regime that would be required absolutely
02:13:14 now one point that has been articulated is that in some way the lfb was specifically targeting our bkc and tmo singling them out for special treatment
02:13:26 singling them out for special treatment when insisting that they should implement a planned preventative maintenance program for self-closing devices
02:13:32 devices now what would be your response to that concern or allegation
02:13:38 that it has no basis in fact can you help us was your concern to ensure planned preventative maintenance programs were in place for self-closing
02:13:49 programs were in place for self-closing devices
02:13:50 devices do that apply across all london boroughs for which you were responsible absolutely if they if we found there was a lack of maintenance on a planning in any borough or any other housing provider
02:14:02 other housing provider or indeed any other business for which we are the enforcing authority that is a matter we would have pursued and do pursue with now can i turn to a separate topic and it's one we touched on with
02:14:13 it's one we touched on with mr ramsey and that was auditing the evacuation strategy for disabled persons and could i ask us to go to lfb trouble zero
02:14:22 zero three double two nine three
02:14:29 first of all mr jack you're probably well placed to explain to us what a fire safety information and guidance note is first of all it is a form of policy document used by
02:14:40 it is a form of policy document used by the
02:14:41 the regulation department to set out what the
02:14:44 the policy we are operating under is and provide guidance to officers on how they should implement that policy what is the fire safety regulation team plan
02:14:54 plan plan primarily held or used at local team level to dictate where they will conduct
02:15:02 conduct their audits during the course of that year made up of a combination of pre-planned inspections revisiting existing premises have been seen before
02:15:13 seen before previously unknown premises how they will respond to allegations of fire risk for numbers and for planning purposes to sort out how much they can physically achieve with the number of staff they
02:15:25 achieve with the number of staff they have
02:15:25 have thank you and could we turn to page six within this guidance note
02:15:31 and if we go to paragraph 5.14 we see io the inspecting officer should look at the third bullet point from the bottom of that list focus on evacuation
02:15:43 bottom of that list focus on evacuation strategy especially for those with mobility issues now is it correct that lfb inspecting officers are not prompted to assess that question on the premises inspection and
02:15:55 question on the premises inspection and data form
02:15:56 data form i don't believe they are can you help us being a senior officer as to why they are not so prompted
02:16:05 prompted i believe in the guidance or training to them
02:16:09 them we have historically been largely limited
02:16:13 limited to the identification of groups which may then lead them on to that discussion and would feature principally under the means of escape and the provision of information to people about it it is taken much further
02:16:26 people about it it is taken much further in the sheltered housing side of it and i think this has been lifted from there but
02:16:30 but beyond that i'm afraid i can't because this rests with a different part of the the office to me so although i have an awareness of it i'm not fully focused on that issue
02:16:42 i'm not fully focused on that issue hopefully the chairman you won't mind if i press my luck somewhat though notwithstanding that caveat but given the absence of a prompt how would
02:16:53 given the absence of a prompt how would the lfb
02:16:54 the lfb expect its inspecting officers to focus on evacuation strategy particularly as it affects those with mobility issues how are you expecting them to do that absent to prompt or any further guidance
02:17:06 absent to prompt or any further guidance i think as i said the properties there for the
02:17:09 for the the assessment should consider groups of or any group of vulnerable persons and if the assessment raised that that such persons may be present
02:17:20 present then the inspector should be reviewing that against what was actually in place but i i'm not aware of a a better prompt than that too than other
02:17:31 a better prompt than that too than other than through their training thank you can i stay on this topic of the vulnerable disabled residents and could i ask you to go to rbk trouble zero five three seven two
02:17:42 trouble zero five three seven two and which is an email from claire wise to amanda johnson and celia chaliscan who were employees of rbkc working in their housing department
02:17:54 working in their housing department and this summarized a meeting about sheltered housing that she and janice ray attended with you nicholas comey and nicholas coombe that morning and if we could look at the fourth paragraph of this
02:18:05 fourth paragraph of this email i could which starts they believe oh sorry they stressed sorry they stress so i'm assuming that means
02:18:17 they stress so i'm assuming that means you
02:18:18 you and or mr cooman or mr comrade stress that if there are residents in buildings that cannot independently evacuate or may have other needs that impact on their ability to carry out fire safety procedures e.g if they are hard of hearing then the
02:18:30 e.g if they are hard of hearing then the fire brigade need to know local fire stations do not need to be informed it would be good practice for a list of residents with additional needs to be kept close to the fire alarm control panel the information could be stored in is it
02:18:42 the information could be stored in is it girder boxes or less expensive boxes locked with a fire brigade padlock key the box should be in should be marked for the attention of the fire brigade for use in the event of a fire they believe that it is the person
02:18:54 they believe that it is the person organization who manages the building that has a duty to develop a plan with actions to be taken in the event of a fire
02:19:01 fire and collect information on residents with additional needs i.e it is the responsibility of the landlord building manager
02:19:06 manager to establish the needs of residents though it is acknowledged that residents are able to decline to disclose this information if they choose risk assessments do not need to be updated if the needs of individual
02:19:17 updated if the needs of individual residents
02:19:18 residents changes slightly or if a new resident moves in with no additional needs it may be required to carry out a review of the risk assessment if a resident's needs significantly changes and or where that change in need is
02:19:29 and or where that change in need is permanent they suggested that where a resident cannot independently evacuate and the fire risk assessment requires an evacuation strategy that a resident should be encouraged to move or other fire safety methods put in place such as sprinters for high risk
02:19:41 place such as sprinters for high risk dwellings
02:19:42 dwellings eg if they are heavy smokers i apologize this is an email that's quite old
02:19:49 quite old um mindful of that caveat does that email
02:19:53 email reflect a fair summary of what was discussed uh with claire wise and others at that meeting i think as i said in my statement i cannot particularly recall the meeting i have a feeling that it was one that mr
02:20:05 i have a feeling that it was one that mr coomb
02:20:06 coomb walked across my desk and asked me if i would join him at and i've not found any particular record i can only say that it does sound like what we were saying at that time
02:20:16 that time as general messages can you remember mindful of the caveat you've given whether the discussion extended to residents with disabilities in general needs housing i'm afraid
02:20:28 in general needs housing i'm afraid i can't recall that as i say very little recollection of the meeting can you recall janice ray's response or claire wise's response i'm afraid not thank you now can i turn to
02:20:40 thank you now can i turn to a separate and distinct topic which relates to approved document b now in your second statement of the inquiry which can be found at lfb double
02:20:51 inquiry which can be found at lfb double zero
02:20:51 zero one two zero three zero eight forward slash
02:20:54 slash nine and paragraph thirty
02:20:59 you state this i recall that at some point around 2013 to 2015 i attended a meeting between the lfb and dclg with brian martin in which b41 was discussed i recall the
02:21:11 in which b41 was discussed i recall the point being made the adb offered significantly less guidance in respect to the first limb of b41 the requirement for fire resistance across the face of a building and for the second limb the requirement to
02:21:22 the second limb the requirement to resist the spread of fire from one building to another however i do not have a clear recollection of this meeting nor a written record i believe that it was a result of this meeting that i formed the impression a new version of adb might be
02:21:34 a new version of adb might be forthcoming as i stated in my email of the 26 september 2016. can you remember who arranged that particular meeting arranged it no i'm afraid i can't can
02:21:45 arranged it no i'm afraid i can't can you why can you remember why it was taking place
02:21:50 i think and i can only say think that it was part of the follow-up following la canal and issues arising from that and some other fires there had been a number of issues around
02:22:02 there had been a number of issues around compartmentation and other building regulations matters but there were a number of meetings that happened that's why i can't say which and when i'm afraid can you remember who
02:22:13 and when i'm afraid can you remember who is present other than myself and brian i'm afraid not i only remember that because the raising of it of this issue i think was actually by me
02:22:24 was actually by me and i know brian martin as we worked together many years ago did you consider the guidance in adb um to be clear in relation to the two limbs the functional crime before you've described
02:22:35 described no in what respects did you consider it to be lacking in my view the the lead through in adb
02:22:46 in my view the the lead through in adb for b1 took you straight into b2 which led people to consider that the entire requirement was about spread between buildings one had to go hunting around into
02:22:57 one had to go hunting around into previous paragraphs to be able to find some mention of fire spread within the area it was the issue we had looked at as part of the investigation following lack of alpha
02:23:08 following lack of alpha were you a lone voice on this or were others expressing similar concerns regarding the clarity of b4 within the department i would say become a collective view between those in enforcement and
02:23:19 between those in enforcement and engineering and beyond and when you say department you mean fire safety regulation department um acknowledging that you've said
02:23:27 said that your recollection of the meeting is is not clear bearing the passage of bearing mind patch of time can you assist us at all in the gist of what was discussed
02:23:38 it was only around that part that i have particular recollection and then really because it related to the
02:23:45 the my recollection that brian had said they would be approaching ministers to try and get a review of approved document b and noted how difficult that may be no matter i can really sympathize with
02:23:56 no matter i can really sympathize with them and
02:23:58 them and why would that be difficult what were his reasons for anticipating those difficulties i think at that time there was a significant element of localism people should be doing things for themselves and
02:24:10 for themselves and government not wanting to put out conduct further reviews against staff shortages that type of thing not uncommon
02:24:17 uncommon do you recall mr martin expressing any views himself about the interpretation adequacy or clarity of b4 not at that meeting although he had before during the
02:24:26 the la canal investigation and can you give us the gist of his views regarding uh interpretation adequacy or clarity of b4
02:24:35 i think he to use the word that i had i've used earlier in seeing what others within the building industry had said he was shocked that they could have reached such a conclusion
02:24:48 reached such a conclusion that there was only the one requirement there's been a historic view through the build i'll call the building regulations department if i may hasn't changed names so often
02:24:59 so often that the document was written for professionals within the building industry who would consequently understand it but there was i believe some recognition by him that perhaps that was not
02:25:11 by him that perhaps that was not being achieved to the extent that one might have hoped that and equally as being read by others who were not necessarily so technically competent as the building control officers of his day i might say
02:25:22 i might say thank you and in relation to the last line of the this paragraph of your witness statement that we're looking at when you say i believe that it was a result of this meeting that i formed the impression a new version of adb might be forthcoming
02:25:33 version of adb might be forthcoming is there anything specific beyond what you've already said that uh created that anticipation in your mind that a new version would be forthcoming only the comment that brian had made to say they were looking to
02:25:44 say they were looking to seek approval for the review of approved document b thank you very much mr jack i've come to the end of my prepared questions um sir might i have uh the usual
02:25:55 um sir might i have uh the usual indulgence i might ask for 10 minutes to see whether i've missed anything out or indeed whether there are any relevant questions that others might want me to yes
02:26:03 yes well mr jack we do normally have a break at the end of council's questions as to let him check that he hasn't left anything out and to consider suggestions from others who aren't in the room
02:26:14 who aren't in the room for additional questions so we'll we will take a break now i'm going to say 20 to 1. and when you come back we'll see whether there are any more questions for you
02:26:25 there are any more questions for you i have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to when you're out of the room of course mr chairman if you go with the usher we'll get you back as soon as we can
02:26:45 right twenty to one then please
02:41:17 yes would you ask mr jack to come back in please
02:41:31 in please all right mr jack well let's see is there any more questions for you yes mr can you there are no further questions uh so mr jack thank you very much for attending the inquiry it's greatly appreciated and it's right i should thank you as
02:41:43 and it's right i should thank you as well mr jack on behalf of all members of the panel
02:41:45 the panel for coming along to give you our evidence it's been very helpful to hear from you
02:41:49 from you it hasn't taken very long well that doesn't mean to say we haven't benefited very much from what you have to tell us so thank you very much indeed and now you're free to go so
02:41:57 go so thank you mister you'd like to go with the usher that will be
02:42:09 well not mr canoe we have another witness but perhaps not just yet is that right no so if you're content um we can start uh miss matthews at two o'clock rather than um having a quarter of an hour
02:42:20 than um having a quarter of an hour and then a break crisis as soon as we started yes well i think that would be sensible so we'll we'll break at that point and resume these at two o'clock thanks two o'clock
02:42:41 you