Evidence from Sacha Jevons regarding TMO health and safety management, Repairs Direct oversight, and operational failures. Focus on systemic deficiencies in fire safety training, contractor management, and responsive repairs backlog.
00:00:22 would you ask mr evans to come back in please
00:00:24 please take care
00:00:32 [Applause]
00:00:41 okay all right mr evans ready to carry on yes
00:00:44 on yes yes thank you yes mr here thank you sir um mr evans before the break we were considering um an email you received from andrea newton from the lancaster west residents association if we could go back to that email which
00:00:55 if we could go back to that email which is at tmo tm01026082 and page two on that chain
00:01:10 there we see there we have your response uh ms evans to andrea newton and then if we scroll up this page
00:01:23 you see you forwarded the email to amongst others mr webb and we see at the very top
00:01:27 very top point four graham please start thinking about when we can start the lanc west pilot
00:01:31 pilot if not already
00:01:35 what was the lancos pilot can you remember
00:01:38 remember i think this was um graeme's team were going to work more closely with the residents association and um
00:01:49 residents association and um and uh pilot new processes that are linked to this customer journey mapping so i i can't recall at this stage the detail of that but it would have been a pilot around improving the processes
00:02:02 a pilot around improving the processes between
00:02:02 between the tmo staff the contact centre and repairs direct to improve processes on repairs
00:02:08 repairs after this chain of email correspondence did you discuss the substance of andrew newton's concerns with graham webb himself i would have done yes and teresa brown yes and did you agree an action plan
00:02:21 yes and did you agree an action plan with mr webb to address the issue or did you leave him to liaise with miss newton and the lancaster west resident association himself i think he was liaising with the residents association but we were all
00:02:33 residents association but we were all talking together about this this was a project and it was about improvements thank you if we can now turn to a separate topic um and if i could ask you to turn up rbk
00:02:45 and if i could ask you to turn up rbk quadruple sorry rbk triple zero five nine zero four zero
00:02:54 and that is a as you see a board meeting of repairs direct on the 26th of february 2015. um at 7.8 you see you're an attendee
00:03:05 at 7.8 you see you're an attendee and on page 3 and item 7.8 it has minted that paul javo informed the board that a health and safety review which had been undertaken highlighted the gaps to be addressed by
00:03:17 highlighted the gaps to be addressed by the company and measures were being put in place to handle issues like asbestos in the workplace
00:03:21 workplace for operatives being sent into homes with asbestos exposure paul javo reassured the board that an action plan was in place to manage the gaps
00:03:30 gaps and that progress against the plan would be regularly reported to the board also a new health and safety policy document has been put together now if we can turn to a health and safety audit which can be found at
00:03:44 tm00863642
00:03:54 and now this is referred to in the previous minute and was carried out by rob anderson of rhss limit in december 2014. um can you remember receiving this report
00:04:06 report um i think i think i will have done i can't specifically recall it now but i i would have done and would you have read it too yes now if we can turn to page five in this
00:04:18 if we can turn to page five in this document
00:04:22 you'll see in the bottom half of the page the audit is divided into 11 parts with each receiving a score and we see that the overall score was
00:04:32 score was 40 out of 100 and if we turn to page 10 within this report and if we look at health and safety
00:04:44 and if we look at health and safety arrangements under the heading requirements which is bottom half there we go
00:04:49 we go it says health and safety management must come from the top of the business down
00:04:53 down and then back up again excuse me the policy statements are statements of intent signed off by the person ultimately responsible for the health and safety of the business health and safety is a business function
00:05:04 safety is a business function that needs constant attention and the structure should reflect this the health and safety policy is best summarized on the hsc website it should clearly say who does what when and how
00:05:14 and how the current policy does not do this now thereafter there are five actions and a tmo if we go over the page to 11 you'll see scores are given a 2 out of
00:05:27 you'll see scores are given a 2 out of 10 there now if we go to a separate document if we go to tmo
00:05:36 00863652
00:05:44 now in relation to the actions set out in the audit we have this document which is called health and safety policy repairs uh direct version one you see bottom
00:05:56 uh direct version one you see bottom right hand corner dated february 2015. uh have you seen this document before i i can't recall it now but i probably would have seen it at the time and read it presumably
00:06:07 it presumably i can't recall it um who would have been responsible for drafting the health and safety policy at repairs direct um 2015 i think it would have been
00:06:18 um 2015 i think it would have been um paul jabo and with the input from janice ray's team at that time can you remember whether this report was prepared to deal with the deficiencies
00:06:30 prepared to deal with the deficiencies identified in the december 14 audit it will have been yeah now if we go to page two within this document i'll turn over the page basically
00:06:42 over the page basically we see that the date and the train register is feb july 2015 and the reason given was document redraft
00:06:50 redraft um can you remember whether this was circulated to repairs direct staff once it had been signed off i expect it would have been but i wouldn't have necessarily known that i think paul gevo
00:07:01 necessarily known that i think paul gevo would have taken responsibility for that and would the later the latter date of july 2015 would that indicate when the policy was uh formally adopted and rolled out
00:07:12 uh formally adopted and rolled out from this it looks like that yes now if i can now apologies for jumping around documents if i could now turn back to the
00:07:18 the 2014 audit and in particular tm00863642
00:07:31 2014 audit and in particular tm00863642 page 19
00:07:36 and if we look at section 5 under training under the heading requirements in the bottom half of the page it says quite simply health and safety training is a legal requirement
00:07:47 training is a legal requirement the company is falling well short of its obligations um if we turn over the page you see that the bottom four actions are identified and a score
00:07:58 four actions are identified and a score for training section five is given as one out of five can you help us were those four actions implemented um
00:08:09 implemented um i think this is i think this is better answered by the md but um from a board perspective we were we were very keen to make sure that the health and safety requirements were um
00:08:20 health and safety requirements were um fulfilled in repairs direct so um i assume that this would have been completed but you can't say i can't say official
00:08:27 official no um just looking at action two can you confirm
00:08:31 confirm uh who or whether a competent person was appointed to identify training needs um i would have expected that in the health and safety manager role to identify the needs and then work out
00:08:42 to identify the needs and then work out how to do the appropriate training can you confirm whether that was done and who that person was at the time um is it to are we in 2015.
00:08:53 is it to are we in 2015. this time we're in december 2014. um sorry i can't i can't recall who it was at the time sorry now if we can stay in this document
00:09:04 can stay in this document but go to page 27.
00:09:10 we have section 9 fire protection and prevention and under observations it's recorded that fire awareness training has not been provided to operatives it
00:09:21 has not been provided to operatives it recommended fire awareness training be provided to all staff can you confirm whether or not fire safety training was provided to all repairs direct staff or not
00:09:31 not i can't go back to your previous question i think it was michael lyons at this point in time and so he would have been working on this um and uh
00:09:41 um and uh i can't recall here today the answer to your question um and this would have been also in the in the remit of anthony parks to oversee
00:09:52 parks to oversee this element of of work
00:09:56 so you can't help us on the details sorry i'm sorry no i can't um can we look at the minutes the repairs direct board meeting on the 10th of march 2016 which is rbk
00:10:07 march 2016 which is rbk triple zero 59213
00:10:16 now chaired by barbara matthews you attend you're the third attendee identified there and if we can turn to page three and item eight
00:10:26 and it says the first item under 8.1 is graham webb informed the board that the health and safety hns manager position was still vacant he explained that the delay to recruit from the h s manager had been the need
00:10:38 from the h s manager had been the need to fully ascertain the business needs and also business build plan for accreditation on various iso schemes before recruiting for a suitable candidate he assured the board that he intends to recruit by june
00:10:49 intends to recruit by june 2016 the board was assured that the risk had mitigated by ensuring that all workforce are fully trained on h s issues
00:10:56 issues on that role now at that stage were you concerned about the absence of a health and safety manager at repairsdirect um i think it was really difficult to recruit health and
00:11:07 really difficult to recruit health and safety managers that was our experience can you explain why sorry to cut across you i think it's um i think it's a difficult role and um uh and that there just simply aren't
00:11:18 uh and that there just simply aren't that many applicants and so it's quite a quite a specific um area particularly relating to responsive repairs so i think we found it difficult to recruit and from this note here our md is giving
00:11:31 and from this note here our md is giving the board the assurance in the interim mitigated mitigation actions
00:11:36 actions um the minute noted in that final sentence that all workforce had been trained on a health and safety issues can you remember what detail had been provided to give the board that assurance
00:11:47 assurance i can't remember the detail at the time no sorry can you remember what the phrase fully trained on health and safety issues on the role actually means in practice well it would have been all of the areas that um
00:11:58 have been all of the areas that um the repairs direct operatives um are responsible for in terms of health and safety so things like manual handling working at heights those types of areas can you remember whether fire safety
00:12:09 can you remember whether fire safety would have been caught by that i would have
00:12:11 have expected it to be included yes now repairs direct recruited a health and safety manager in november 2016 sharon mckinnis um did you have any role in her recruitment
00:12:22 role in her recruitment i don't think so no not that i can recall
00:12:25 recall before she was recruited who was responsible for ensuring that repairs direct
00:12:29 direct discharged its health and safety obligations um if there were a gap i would say the managing director and before that i think it was michael lyons now sharon mckinnis prepared
00:12:40 lyons now sharon mckinnis prepared a health and safety management system gap analysis in february 2017 and that can be found at tm01016214
00:12:56 now do you remember receiving that document
00:13:01 can can i see a bit of it of course okay
00:13:11 i could i could well have done i'm sorry i can't recall today looking at it if you had received it would you have read it yes now can we look at item 2.1 on the
00:13:22 now can we look at item 2.1 on the second page which is up here and it says under the executive summary significant failures have been identified across the management system failures are attributable to an absence of defined health and safety standards
00:13:33 of defined health and safety standards addressing the specific needs of repairs direct
00:13:35 direct policies and procedures accident investigation risk management and non-compliance with regulatory requirements given the conclusions of the audit in december 2014
00:13:48 december 2014 can you explain how a situation has arisen where such significant failures remained at repairs direct in february 2017
00:13:57 2017 i think that there had been a series of gaps and i think it was difficult to recruit
00:14:02 recruit that type of person with the expertise that we needed and i think each time you recruit a new person will start looking at all of the procedures
00:14:13 start looking at all of the procedures and review those and so i think it was i think the board uh were um concerned and knew that this was an area that needed needed work
00:14:25 that needed needed work given the extensive nature of the failures that have been identified do you now remember reading this report or not i don't recall this report i'm afraid it's quite a long time ago
00:14:37 afraid it's quite a long time ago it was provided in february 2017. can you remember what if anything you did in response to making good the identified deficiencies i would have spoken to
00:14:50 barbara matthews at the time and also we'd have expected a response from graham webb can you remember whether you did ask for that response i will have done yes and did you receive
00:15:02 i will have done yes and did you receive a response i think the response was that um graham webb was going to implement the actions now if we can go down to page 3 and item 4.3
00:15:16 go down to page 3 and item 4.3 in relation to training it says that health and training health and safety training is a legal requirement and repairs direct is falling short of its obligation and it goes on to say in the final paragraph
00:15:27 the final paragraph up on the screen there is limited evidence of training certificates for operatives and contractors and no evidence of certificates for temporary workers mandatory training requirements have not been established or frequencies for renewal defined or
00:15:38 or frequencies for renewal defined or monitored
00:15:39 monitored now given the deficiencies identified in december 2014 graham webb's assurance on the 10th of march 2016 that the risk of not having a health and safety manager
00:15:50 health and safety manager had been mitigated by training what did you make of this finding in february 2017 i think it's fair to say that this was of concern
00:16:01 of concern and the expectation is that the managing director would act on this with urgency and make sure that all of these actions identified are completed did you take any steps yourself to press
00:16:13 did you take any steps yourself to press graham webb for an explanation as to why there was such a significant deficiency in the training provided to his staff i would have done yeah
00:16:21 yeah can you remember whether you did yes i'm sure i'm sure i did at the time yes i mean it was of concern to the board and clearly this identifies a lot of actions that still needed to be done
00:16:32 actions that still needed to be done we had gaps we had gaps in expertise um which we knew we had to to fill and i think it shows that there was work that we we really needed to get on with
00:16:43 that we we really needed to get on with and yes he did need to be accountable for that
00:16:46 for that now if we turn over the page to item five
00:16:53 we see a summary of recommendations at 5.1
00:16:57 5.1 and 5.2 i'll just let you briefly refresh your memory
00:17:12 yep now can you remember whether any of those steps were actually taken preeminently the development of meaningful quotes kpis we did have a suite of kpis
00:17:24 kpis we did have a suite of kpis and i think it needed to be expanded to include some of these elements and i think this is if i'm right
00:17:32 right now 2017. february 2007. so it will have been in development i can't say how how far for sure in my recollection that we got with these elements okay so you can't say one way or another
00:17:44 okay so you can't say one way or another whether these actions were fully completed
00:17:51 i would assume at that point they were completed but i can't say for certain it's only an assumption yeah and can you give the panel any assistance of whether regular compliance audits were carried out after february
00:18:03 audits were carried out after february 2017.
00:18:05 2017. yes i think they did set up a process for um compliance audits and taking a sample and looking at the looking at the processes you say i think how certain are you
00:18:16 are you it's a long i can't recall and i can't recall for sure i'm sorry now um we don't need to go to it unless you need to but um in her statement shannon mckinnis
00:18:27 but um in her statement shannon mckinnis said paragraph 16 this i cannot recall the specific actions taken following production of my report
00:18:34 report i did not feel health and safety was a priority of repairs direct this was one of the reasons why i eventually left health and safety concerns were more talk than action do you agree with that pithy assessment
00:18:46 do you agree with that pithy assessment of health and safety that repairs the road i mean those are her words
00:18:50 her words i'd like to think that that wasn't the case i really did i really don't think it was
00:18:55 it was and i think that she would probably be referring to management within repairs direct and obviously
00:19:01 obviously my role was sitting on the board and the responsibility um for making sure this was in place sat with the md but having having said that our overall culture
00:19:12 having said that our overall culture within the organization and our intentions were not that and that we were focused on trying to get it right so it is disappointing to hear that but don't you think that the findings of the
00:19:24 don't you think that the findings of the december 2014 audit when you're looking at what was found in february 2017 significant deficiencies still existed
00:19:35 significant deficiencies still existed isn't there some truth however hard to swallow in shannon mckennis's criticism that it was all talk and no action that the repairs direct in relation to health and safety
00:19:46 i think they are her words and i think that
00:19:49 that from my perspective in my role i had a very broad remit as you've heard and we were trying hard to make sure that these gaps were filled and we were certainly we've done a
00:20:01 and we were certainly we've done a number of audits so we were trying to find out what the issue was and and put and put things right
00:20:09 now turn on to coordination with tmo on health and safety including fire safety if we could turn to tm00844151
00:20:21 if we could turn to tm00844151 and these are the minutes of the tmo health and safety committee meeting on the 31st of july 2015.
00:20:28 now you didn't attend
00:20:32 but it's recorded in item 11 on the fifth page
00:20:40 and in the second sentence that barbara presumably barbara matthews advised that we should have common policies and procedures both tmo and rd and that jana should have audit rights over rd's health and safety
00:20:52 audit rights over rd's health and safety systems do you call what common health and safety policy and procedures existed at this time so july 2015 and between tmo and repairs direct
00:21:04 no i think i think this would have been an area more for barbara and her team what's the date of these minutes sorry these minutes are the 31st of july 2015. so not that long after barbara matthews
00:21:15 so not that long after barbara matthews joined the team
00:21:18 can you remember whether janice ray retained audit rights over repairs direct health and safety systems i think i think she did yes from that can we take it that she exercised those
00:21:29 can we take it that she exercised those rights i'm not sure i could be clear on that sorry is that something janice ray rotten you yes um yes it would be sorry um given
00:21:42 um given uh her role in auditing the systems um can you give us a summary of
00:21:49 of your understanding of janus ray's responsibilities in relation to health and safety it repairs direct um i think from this minute um the suggestion is that they align that
00:22:01 the suggestion is that they align that the policies and procedures align and i think when we set up rd um we had policies and procedures in place um
00:22:10 um that the setup group um implemented in that first 10 months of setup and so i do think there were probably two
00:22:19 two two sets of procedures and this point is making sure that they are aligned correctly
00:22:24 correctly and that janice's role to answer your question was an oversight of that alignment process and are you able to put
00:22:30 put much flesh on that answer in the sense of giving the panel an idea of the extent of the support janice ray and her department gave to health and safety
00:22:39 safety at repairsdirect um
00:22:43 i'm not not so sure on that because most of her communication would have been with
00:22:47 with the managing director and the managers within rd
00:22:51 within rd um but there's certainly a responsibility on the md and his management team to make sure the appropriate policies were in place as well now there was a tmo health and safety
00:23:03 now there was a tmo health and safety action plan and if we can look at the version prepared for a meeting on 19th of january 2016 which is at tm0100729
00:23:42 thank you and if we could look at row 13 and reference a5 column b contains the action continue to work with
00:23:53 work with and look at the left-hand column continue to work with a and r and rd to ensure the fire safety firmly in bed and will work and then reading rightwards across to column e it says met with
00:24:04 column e it says met with rd health and safety and impressed on him the importance of ensuring jobs are made good to fire resisting standard now this action or substantially similar terms
00:24:14 terms was contained in the action plan for all tmo health and safety committee meetings between november 2014 and june 2016. my first question is this were you aware of the health and safety
00:24:26 were you aware of the health and safety action plan
00:24:30 at the health and safety committee yep um
00:24:33 um yes i think we did have a an action plan yes i was aware of that and were you familiar with this particular action namely to embed uh fire safety in all work yes
00:24:49 can you give us mindful of your management role over assets and regeneration and your board membership of repairs direct can you assist with what work was done quotes to ensure that fire safety wasn't
00:25:00 quotes to ensure that fire safety wasn't firmly embedded in all work um i think that if you uh look at the um
00:25:08 work that we undertook around training that was an important aspect so that staff were aware of their responsibilities that was one element in terms of our contracts we needed to make sure that our contractors
00:25:19 make sure that our contractors absolutely were held to account on health and safety and followed the right procedures so there was a whole piece around procurement and our contract management and then the third element i would say as an example is our systems are in
00:25:31 as an example is our systems are in place for tracking and monitoring and making sure that we are able to hold individual staff and teams to account on making sure they complete that work
00:25:39 that work so there were several streams to that but by way of example those are three of them
00:25:44 them now bearing in mind your role as executive director of operations at tmo and your role as a board member of repairs direct what was your understanding of repair direct role in reducing fire risk
00:25:56 direct role in reducing fire risk and assisting the tmo to comply with its fire safety obligations they had an obligation in terms of the responsive repairs and so they needed to absolutely meet the
00:26:07 they needed to absolutely meet the turnaround times on actions and so they needed to be able to respond with the within the time scales to the right standard and to the right specification on fire safety issues now i want to turn
00:26:19 on fire safety issues now i want to turn to
00:26:19 to um excuse me minutes over meeting the repairs direct board on the 10th of march 2016 which can be found at rbk 0059213
00:26:37 which can be found at rbk 0059213 you and we see we've looked at these in a different context earlier but you attended there and if we can turn to page 2 and item 5.4
00:26:48 and you'll see that the second paragraph under 5.4
00:26:52 under 5.4 it's recorded that the board then discussed the policy needs of the company
00:26:56 company graham webb suggested the company could adopt the parent company's policies as a way to strive to attain the same standards do you recall in any detail what the repairs direct policy needs were at this
00:27:08 repairs direct policy needs were at this point
00:27:11 i think this refers to a corporate risk register
00:27:15 register for repairs direct company it's not specific to fire safety it's a corporate risk register understood um can you give us any further detail on
00:27:26 um can you give us any further detail on what
00:27:26 what particular tmo policies were being considered for adoption did mr webb give you any detail there's a whole process corporately around risk management and our corporate risk
00:27:37 our corporate risk evaluation processes and risk map process
00:27:41 process and that's what that will be referring to adopting the same style on how you assess risk impact likelihood and
00:27:49 and scoring mechanism so does it flow from that that the tmos fire safety strategy was not a common policy as between the tmo and repairs direct
00:28:01 well there there were there were policies in repairs direct and there were corporate um health and safety policies at the tmo so um
00:28:10 so um sorry i i think you're gonna have to don't work don't worry can you remember now was the tmos fire safety strategy was that a common policy shared by repairs direct
00:28:21 a common policy shared by repairs direct they will have been aware of that i think yes that's not quite an answer to the question my question was is the tip was the tmos fire safety strategy a shared strategy with repairs to road
00:28:34 a shared strategy with repairs to road um
00:28:36 um yes although i yeah i can't recall from the time that yes i would accept it would
00:28:41 would be yes now jumping forward on june the 7th 2017 janice ray circulated papers for a health and safety meeting to be held on the 13th of june
00:28:53 on the 13th of june we looked this slightly earlier excuse me one of the reports attached to that email
00:28:58 email was entitled health and safety progress report repairs direct now can we go to that which is at
00:29:10 tm00845378 now we see it paragraph 1.1 oh sorry 1 it lists various health and safety procedures and states that additional operational
00:29:21 and states that additional operational procedures that are needed to ensure proper health and safety compliance will be required and we look at 1.2 records that a general health and safety policy specific to repairs direct had been
00:29:32 specific to repairs direct had been drafted
00:29:35 can you explain why a new health and safety policy specific to repairs direct was prepared in 2017
00:29:44 i mean i think this is is trying to reflect the nature of the work in repairs direct and make sure that the right policies are in place was this a an action flowing from
00:29:55 was this a an action flowing from shannon mckennis's gap analysis i'm not sure on the timing but i would assume so if it follows from the gap analysis and at paragraph 1.3 it refers to two operational procedures
00:30:06 operational procedures adapted from existing tmo documents so that was the guidance on risk assessment and the tmo accident reporting procedure can you help us is that a comprehensive list of the health and safety policies
00:30:19 list of the health and safety policies for repairs direct as at june 2017
00:30:24 i would have expected there to be more procedures there than is listed there to the lay eye one assumes there would be more
00:30:33 be more um specific policies dealing with fire safety systems fire doors alarms and the rest of it would you assume that those existed i would i would expect so yes and um
00:30:43 and um again i would expect of the um barbara matthews at this time to have input through the board rd board on on guidance on this um can we now look at the backlog of
00:30:55 um can we now look at the backlog of general responsive repairs and reporting performance and can i ask you to turn to rbk
00:31:00 rbk trouble zero five nine zero five two
00:31:09 these are minutes of repair repairs direct board meeting on the 28th of may 2015
00:31:15 2015 and if we go to page 2 and item 5.2
00:31:22 and paul woodham noted that the whip is whip works in progress works on progress yeah excuse me as that 31st march was at 1942
00:31:34 as that 31st march was at 1942 an aged whip at 961. he wanted to know if there were any plans to reduce whip and aged whip paul chavo responded that the level of whip at year end had been higher and had reduced by 1500
00:31:47 had been higher and had reduced by 1500 jobs
00:31:48 jobs additionally there are plans to reduce whip details of which he would give at a later date paul javo reiterated that the acceptable level of aged whip was 40 to 50 jobs at any one time
00:32:00 was 40 to 50 jobs at any one time however if there is whip in the system beyond two months there should be a report which details and justifies why exceptional whips were in the system now were aged works in progress those
00:32:13 now were aged works in progress those outside their target date for completion can you remember now
00:32:19 um
00:32:25 so sorry so the question again yeah were aged works in progress so aged whips those which are outside their target date for completion
00:32:36 date for completion no i don't think so because it's the acceptable level of age whip has a certain period of time so i can't i can't tell from that question whether it would be overdue or
00:32:48 question whether it would be overdue or whether it would be within the reasonable period or the timeline that's set can you remember now whether the backlog consisted entirely of responsive repairs
00:32:57 repairs this is referring to responsive repairs and would those repairs have included fra repair requests um they may have done yes and presumably it
00:33:08 they may have done yes and presumably it meant they would also have included fire safety measures such as flat entrance door repairs i guess
00:33:14 would you been able to identify that level of detail from the information provided by paul gevo
00:33:21 gevo not in this not at this board level but i know that there was um a lot of discussion around the fra actions and focusing on that and they had a specific project to to focus and
00:33:34 had a specific project to to focus and dedicate on the fra actions at some at one point in time and did the work of that project involve identifying the types of actions that needed to be done it would have been yeah you say it would
00:33:45 it would have been yeah you say it would have been was it yes yes can you assist on why a still substantial backlog had crept up again um
00:33:57 had crept up again um so i i mean just to put context here we were doing 30 000 jobs a year so um if you have a period of sickness or a change in management or a
00:34:08 change in management or a problem with materials supply or a subcontractor whose performance starts to deteriorate all of those outstanding repairs can build up very really quite quickly so it could have been any number of those
00:34:19 could have been any number of those reasons that was happening and it was a constant process of keeping on top of those issues were those reasons rather than looking at an abstract were those the reasons for
00:34:29 for this particular backlog it would have been it would have been or it was it was it was now did mr javo produce a plan
00:34:37 plan for the board or any or indeed any other body uh
00:34:40 body uh to set up what he was doing to reduce the backlog um i'm not sure if it was a specific plan
00:34:48 plan but all of those items are and in my experience across my um across my different job roles are those are the types of things that you will need to focus on to get a whip down so he would have had a plan with his
00:35:00 so he would have had a plan with his managers underneath him that details those
00:35:03 those those sorts of elements again you said would have can you confirm whether he did or not or is that i can't confirm but i would say at this board level our expectation was that the managing director would be
00:35:18 was that the managing director would be expected to manage that level of detail within the organization and experienced enough to know that that was the type of work that he had to put in place to get this whip down at this stage so this is may 2015 mr evans
00:35:30 this stage so this is may 2015 mr evans did you or barbara matthews for one of a better phrase eyeball mr webb and say what are you doing
00:35:37 doing what's the detail of the measures and who you know are you cracking the whip for whatever better phrase yes we'd constantly have discussions about the challenges around getting responsive repairs
00:35:47 repairs and whip down yes i did can we now turn to the minutes of repairs direct board meeting on the 17th of september 2015. they can be found at rbk trouble zero five nine one nine
00:35:58 five nine one nine five
00:36:04 again you attended you're the second attendee and if we can turn to page three
00:36:08 three and item seven point three and there you said this um sasha jetwa it's recorded that you said this sacha jevons questioned the level of
00:36:19 sacha jevons questioned the level of work in progress jobs and what was being done to reduce this rupa bola noted that the team were looking at the historical jobs currently at 2 300 to review the position and it was agreed
00:36:30 to review the position and it was agreed that between the finance team and the management team the jobs would be reviewed and reduced where possible in addition it was agreed that the work in progress reporting would include an aged analysis to enable the board to understand if the jobs were
00:36:42 the board to understand if the jobs were current or historic paul javo also confirmed that his team were looking into the system's processing of those historical jobs um apologies for asking us a technical question first about classification
00:36:55 question first about classification but were historical jobs the same as age jobs
00:36:58 jobs i.e those outside the target date no i think historical jobs refer back to element items are quite a long time ago and that they
00:37:11 are quite a long time ago and that they needed to go through a process of making sure they were actually relevant still because sometimes the jobs had been completed but they hadn't been closed out on the on the system and the administration of that hadn't been done
00:37:21 done so it might not have been an actual real job and that's what historical job is it it might been something that's been done and completed but there's no record of that and so you'd have to go back and check and verify that there's nothing
00:37:32 and verify that there's nothing outstanding and then close it out on the system
00:37:35 system now the historical jobs had more than doubled from 961 in may 2015 to 2300 in september 2015. do you know why that increase had
00:37:46 do you know why that increase had happened
00:37:49 happened uh from this minute some of that will have been the administration i think and the issue of closing out jobs and
00:37:56 jobs and the record keeping process other than that it would have been the number of other issues that i've already talked about
00:38:05 and in response to your prompting was a system put in place prioritize the clearing of that those historical repairs at this stage
00:38:14 yes i think so yes and thereafter again in response to your prompting was an aged analysis of works in progress provided to the board so they could monitor progress
00:38:25 monitor progress i can't recall that i assume so now can we turn to an executive team meeting on the 24th of february 2016 which is at tm00840516
00:38:45 uh now you attended and if we could uh go to page three
00:38:53 off we down page three there's a heading repairs direct
00:38:58 and just fourth line down says graph work in progress uh four thousand pound jobs overall one million
00:39:06 million forty five k bm bob matthews these are not necessarily whole jobs some jobs need to be closed bm thinks it's about process graham is getting staff in to try and clear the backlog
00:39:17 clear the backlog disquiet about level of the whip graham is working towards one two million pounds by year end we need an explanation why surplus payroll costs lower how do we maintain getting the whip down
00:39:29 maintain getting the whip down paul the new chair of the board will be challenging now to clarify um there were 4 000 jobs outstanding at this point with a value of 1.45 million is that correct
00:39:41 is that correct i'm not sure i recall that that doesn't it doesn't sound right the whip position appear to have worsened um since september 2015. is that a fair
00:39:52 since september 2015. is that a fair uh summary of the position i think yes probably yes
00:40:03 now barbara matthews thought it was about process did you agree with that observation at the time i can't recall but i think this is what i'm referring to about um the processes and the administration i think it's complex
00:40:15 administration i think it's complex and it's um lengthy and um you need to get that element right so i think some of it is not about that there were jobs outstanding it was more about us being able to clarify and get our
00:40:26 us being able to clarify and get our systems correct and get the jobs closed out
00:40:29 out the minute referred to disquiet about the level of the whip from where did disquiet flow
00:40:37 i'm not sure what that minute refers to and it might be that there was a difference of opinion about the level of whip
00:40:43 whip can you remember any particular action points arising out of this meeting to reduce whip um there will have been a discussion about that and it would have been about making sure
00:40:54 and it would have been about making sure that there was due processes between rd and the finance team to make sure repairs were closed out but also a real concentration in terms of the teams
00:41:05 concentration in terms of the teams their focus with the operatives and the post inspection process with subcontractors i think those are the types of areas that we would have been discussing
00:41:16 that we would have been discussing now if we could turn to tmo zero
00:41:28 and if we go to page 11. item two of the matters arising action log
00:41:39 there's review kpis that's allocated jointly to you and mr webb
00:41:46 and this arose from the meeting on the 10th of march 2016 the one we've just been considering of not one early in a different context now in the update column it is recorded
00:41:58 now in the update column it is recorded as against review kpis this completed and revised suite of kpi agreed with tmo board and reported monthly quarterly do you recall reviewing and revising repair direct's kpis with graham webb
00:42:11 repair direct's kpis with graham webb after the meeting on the 10th of march 2016. yes we will have done yes did you yes yes yes can you remember when you did that no i can't remember exactly no sorry
00:42:25 how did you decide to monitor the extent of the backlog as a kpi um i think i think we we reviewed that as work in progress kpi
00:42:38 we reviewed that as work in progress kpi okay and number of jobs completed now a tmo board meeting took place on the 31st of march 2016 and that can be found at tm01004482
00:42:58 found at tm01004482 and if we can go to page nine
00:43:02 item 14
00:43:06 explains there that the kpis have been reviewed and a list of proposed kpis is included in appendix b and if we go to page 17 we'll find appendix b
00:43:17 which is confusingly entitled appendix 2 but nonetheless this sets out the proposed kpis repairs direct now does that reflect the work upon
00:43:28 now does that reflect the work upon which you'd been involved with graham webb yes those are the um
00:43:33 the um the sort of standard kpis that we we would use to monitor the repair service responsive repair service now we see on the left hand side
00:43:44 now we see on the left hand side the second box below the title responsive repairs repairs to red it says
00:43:49 says average days to complete a responsive repair
00:43:52 repair was added as a kpi and percentage of non-emergency repairs completed in target
00:43:57 target was removed can you explain the rationale for that decision i think at that time the industry standard was to measure the number of days to complete
00:44:08 number of days to complete complete a responsive repair and so that's why that new one was introduced and felt as a better better indicator of the performance of the organization
00:44:19 the organization given the chronic nature of the issue regarding
00:44:23 regarding a backlog why was the volume of outstanding repairs not the subject of a kpi
00:44:31 kpi it will have been in detail within repairs direct i think this is just the board level um kpis and can you help us as to why at this stage no kpis
00:44:42 stage no kpis were concerned with health and safety performance
00:44:48 i think again um i'd expect that kpi within the organization um in a more at a more detailed level and what we're looking at here is is a board level um overview
00:44:59 is is a board level um overview of the key kpis that you'd you'd expect to see
00:45:02 to see to enable you to understand whether or not repairs direct is functioning as an organization and performing so and this and this i would say was at the time
00:45:11 the time very standard for the industry and that was my experience of running responsive repairs so you wouldn't ordinarily at board level have um you know 30 40 kpis
00:45:23 have um you know 30 40 kpis it wouldn't be appropriate that's the level of detail that you'd expect the teams to be doing and that's even in circumstances where a backlog
00:45:31 backlog of repairs have been a chronic and long-running issue with that for the both the tmo and repairs direct the backlog was being discussed in the narrative of the meeting and it would have flowed through into the um
00:45:43 it would have flowed through into the um average days to complete a repair and there's no kpi here for responsive repair fra actions either is there not specifically for the same reason you've given earlier um but the
00:45:54 you've given earlier um but the the fra actions were being monitored through the health and safety committee because that was one of the key elements of
00:46:01 of our oversight at that committee it just doesn't feature in this board level uh indicators did you or mr webb consider proposing the number of incomplete repairs as a kpi
00:46:17 not as i said i don't think not not at this level i think that was being measured as part of the whip and that would have been looked at
00:46:24 looked at closely within the teams the repairs direct teams and is the same reason applicable to a decision not to specify the age profile of outstanding repairs
00:46:38 the age profile of outstanding repairs yes not at this level that wouldn't have been appropriate i don't think and proportionate at a board meeting and i think
00:46:45 i think i think it was sort of quite widely recognized in the industry that these are the
00:46:50 are the repairs i mean they were based on house mark and benchmarking information and what other organizations did and so if you were to start analyzing that level of detailed board that would um be um
00:47:04 too too detailed a conversation at this level
00:47:07 level but wouldn't that detail have enabled the board to scrutinize what was going on at the more operational level to reduce the backlog didn't they need that level of granular detail
00:47:18 detail and i think that was reflected in the earlier narrative in the board minutes where we were talking about whip and paul wooden was asking questions about it and so we were aware of it and we were having those
00:47:29 aware of it and we were having those discussions in the meetings about how to reduce whip can we now go on to a meeting at the repairs direct board on the 15th of december 2016 which can be found at rbk trouble0059125
00:47:49 now you gave your apologies would you have received and read a copy of the minutes in due course i would have received them yes and read them yes it could be turned to page 2 and item 5.3
00:48:04 and it says their work in progress was within target an aged analysis of whip by job profile was agreed to be brought to the next meeting it was confirmed all jobs outstanding for june 2016 would be cleared by the
00:48:16 for june 2016 would be cleared by the end of 2016. um can you help us with wine aged analysis of works in progress by job profile was requested at this meeting was that as a result of concerns
00:48:27 was that as a result of concerns regarding the backlog yes it would have been yeah
00:48:33 and if we go now to rbk trouble 0-60148
00:48:42 [Music] this you see that on the 17th of january 2017 you were sent a report by guy sharma
00:48:49 sharma entitled final report repairs direct systems review and a report has attached that email and which we can find at rbk trouble zero six zero one
00:49:01 trouble zero six zero one nine
00:49:07 and if we go to page 4
00:49:11 we can see that the outcome was satisfactory assurance identified by the green circle in the top third of the page did you read that report yes could we
00:49:23 did you read that report yes could we turn to page nine
00:49:28 under the heading performance management at the bottom of the page we see it power 3.35 it's recorded that rd performance is measured against six key performance indicators which measure a combination
00:49:39 indicators which measure a combination of tent satisfaction repair quality and void turnaround audit confirmed that kpi are compiled independently of rd by the kc tmo performance manager using data provided by
00:49:50 data provided by rd now if we turn over the page to 3.36
00:49:57 um it sets out to whom kpis were presented
00:50:01 presented now the kpis being used at this point is it fair to say didn't capture the full
00:50:08 full extent of the backlog given what we've already discussed
00:50:14 i i think it's i think it's measuring
00:50:19 it's it's not necessarily measuring um the kpi isn't measuring backlog it's measuring performance of the repair service in a way that we've just seen so did you
00:50:30 in a way that we've just seen so did you discuss the backlog with guy sharma for the purposes of him preparing this audit report um he would have had more detailed discussions with the md um not myself on backlog i don't think okay
00:50:41 not myself on backlog i don't think okay and details of that i wouldn't have discussed that with again is it your assumption that those meetings took place or can you confirm that they did take place meetings around the audit yes between graham webb they would have
00:50:53 yes between graham webb they would have taken place if this order this order the auditor will have spoken in detail to the managing director and managers within his team on that level of detail i i don't think he wouldn't have spoken to me about
00:51:04 he wouldn't have spoken to me about whip and how we manage that and cape kpis as such now can we go to the next repairs direct board meeting on the 8th of march 2017 which is at tm00862574
00:51:20 and remember you asked for an analysis by
00:51:23 by age of works in progress and if we go to page 10
00:51:34 now this is a an analysis so if you just decrease it again we see at the bottom of the page that was prepared it would appear by mr
00:51:45 that was prepared it would appear by mr webb for the board on the 6th of march 2017.
00:51:49 2017. now do you remember reading um or considering those bar charts i can't recall it now because it's a long time ago but we would have read it
00:52:00 long time ago but we would have read it yes
00:52:00 yes or i would have read it yes can you help us with the methodology as to how the data was collated does each column show the number of repairs logged in um a given month which had not been
00:52:11 um a given month which had not been completed
00:52:13 completed i i can't that's a detail a level of detail that would have been worked out through the performance team um within the within the tmo
00:52:22 the tmo and the staff within repairs direct okay now bearing in mind that answer can i now turn to a separate document which is minutes of a meeting on the 8th of march 2017
00:52:33 a meeting on the 8th of march 2017 and that can be found at tm00894303
00:52:46 and that can be found at tm00894303 and again this is a meeting of the repairs direct board you attended and if we could turn to item 3.4
00:52:55 item 3.4 on page two
00:53:03 it's recorded an aged analysis of whip was distributed it was noted that 50 of the works predated 2016 there are a number of complex leak repairs in view of the md it was not an unusual
00:53:15 in view of the md it was not an unusual profile for a business like rd the committee discussed the target whip and the number of jobs this equated to in value it was noted that the automated system would assist however this was not fully
00:53:26 would assist however this was not fully complete
00:53:26 complete as was a coding issue i.t were as yet unable to resolve it was agreed that this issue would be reported back through the md's report did you agree with mr webb's view that
00:53:37 did you agree with mr webb's view that that was not an unusual profile for a business like repairs direct i think i was i think the board were um expecting him to have the experience in this area
00:53:48 this area um so the actual level of whip i think we needed to take his views md on that um what my experience was that it was uh responsive repairs as i've said earlier is a is a difficult
00:54:00 i've said earlier is a is a difficult area
00:54:01 area to um to get right and you'd have a lot of jobs and you'd have to work hard at making sure repairs were completed on time now the minute referred to target whip can
00:54:14 the minute referred to target whip can you uh
00:54:14 you uh can you remember whether what the target whip was
00:54:17 whip was i i can't remember that now sorry no can you remember whether a target whip was actually agreed at this meeting it appears so from the minute but not the detail of it no no i can't remember
00:54:28 the detail of it no no i can't remember exactly no sorry can you remember whether this data was any discussion about the need for volume of works in progress
00:54:35 progress broken down by age profile to be included as a kpi going forward given the continuing issues well i i think
00:54:44 those graphs show um how it was broken down for this board meeting
00:54:51 uh was there any discussion about reporting
00:54:54 reporting a kpi along those lines to the tmo board
00:54:59 i think there were if if you're talking about the tmo board not repairs direct board
00:55:04 board and the tmo board would have oversight of the range of services i think it would just be too detailed a discussion a board level given that there are five six
00:55:14 six different other service areas that you're looking at so i really think the tmo board would have expected to delegate that responsibility in that level of detail down to the repairs direct
00:55:24 direct board and the company itself i think they would have wanted to see the higher level performance not not the detail around whip
00:55:42 now can i turn to a separate topic which is the repairs direct health check audit a review after the fire and can we go to tm00-862541
00:56:05 now this is an agenda for a board meeting on the 18th of january 2018 and if we go to page 11.
00:56:17 and if we go to page 11. and we can see as against op 05 and the far left hand column it's recorded backlogger of repairs dates to january 2017
00:56:29 dates to january 2017 total number 5400 jobs
00:56:33 can you help us again as to why there was such a substantial backlog of repairs dating from january 2017
00:56:42 i wasn't at the organization at this point so i i can't really comment on that figure there and whether that's accurate to my knowledge this is after i had left the team there and hadn't you
00:56:54 the team there and hadn't you this is january 2018 can you remind me when you'd left um well i was off sick at that point so i wasn't in the organization i left around february or march i think from recollection
00:57:05 recollection so i i can't say that the analysis that there were 5 400 jobs in january 2000 is accurate or not
00:57:13 not but if you assume that it was as this is data recorded in the board minute um would you agree that whatever measures had been taken to deal with the backlog
00:57:22 backlog those measured those measures had been unsuccessful and ineffective i think we knew we had a backlog but i don't think it was 5400 jobs from my recollection
00:57:33 recollection at january 2017.
00:57:37 so if we turn further down the page to op 11
00:57:41 op 11 at the bottom of the page which calls this there is no structured approach to categorizing repairs into types of repairs eg fra actions complaint action standard repairs etc
00:57:52 repairs etc and as such a difficult to manage monta monitor or prioritize now given the repeated emphasis on all prioritizing fra actions that we've reviewed through all the various minutes
00:58:04 reviewed through all the various minutes can you explain this finding i'm finding this difficult because i was off sick at this point in time so it's notes of meeting that i wasn't at and i hadn't been at the organization
00:58:16 at and i hadn't been at the organization so it's
00:58:17 so it's it's it's someone else's view on it i think what i can comment on is that during the meetings that i i was at um that we knew we had to to improve fra
00:58:30 that we knew we had to to improve fra actions we had work groups we had plans to try to reduce fra actions in rd and the md was given that task and that responsibility to make sure he managed
00:58:41 responsibility to make sure he managed it and he worked with genesis team to report back on that and that was the mechanism now we will turn to therefore to a separate topic which is vulnerable residents
00:58:53 topic which is vulnerable residents and can ask you to turn to the tmos equality and diversity strategy which is rbk treble zero double five four eight two
00:59:08 if i could ask you to turn to page four
00:59:13 and we see uh sub paragraphs two point five point one and 2.5.2 it says this we recognize that information about people is often sensitive
00:59:23 sensitive have information about our residents as a vital resource and being able to improve the way that we deliver our services
00:59:29 services it's also critical to identifying where there might be barriers for our residents and accessing our services or where there might be a problem we're committed to continuously improving the quality of the data that we hold now the document is undated but it
00:59:42 now the document is undated but it refers on page 8 to developing an action plan for 2011 2012
00:59:48 2012 which would 10 suggest it was drafted around 2011. and if we could go to page ager so you can see that
00:59:59 would it would 2011 be a likely date for the date it was drafted it appears so from this uh can you remember whether anything was done uh following uh finalization of that
01:00:10 uh following uh finalization of that document to collect accurate data on disabled or vulnerable residents for the purposes of fire safety planning um i think this is an era of responsibility in the policy team so um i'm not sure i
01:00:24 in the policy team so um i'm not sure i can answer that that question this was work undertaken through
01:00:28 through uh yvonne birch's directorate from my recollection at this time okay can i um see whether you can help us further with another document which is the supporting residence policy which can be found at
01:00:41 residence policy which can be found at eight tm0080 four eight one
01:00:54 as you see from the top operational date april 2016. are you familiar with this document
01:00:59 document yes yes i have seen that were you involved in any way in the commissioning writing or sign off of this report of this policy rather no this was again um drafted through
01:01:12 this was again um drafted through yvonne birch's policy team with input probably from the housing management team and sheltered housing teams so theresa brown and hashem shamshin and
01:01:23 theresa brown and hashem shamshin and are you in a position to assist the panelists to why following the recommendation in 2011 that there should be
01:01:29 be um an action plan dealing with equality and diversity why nothing have been put in place until 2016.
01:01:36 2016. no i i i think this was an area that was covered by the corporate policy team um reporting into yvonne birch
01:01:46 staying on this page under the section entitled background and the third paragraph there and it says this the supporting residence policy is designed to ensure that we identify those residents who may need additional support record
01:01:57 need additional support record record what support is needed deliver it where we can and help to ensure that we work with any relevant agencies and make referrals to them where necessary it also aims to make sure that an emergency relevant residence needs
01:02:09 an emergency relevant residence needs are prioritized wherever possible this document policy is supported by a procedure that sets out in greater detail the steps to be taken would you agree with the proposition that the policy requires the tmo
01:02:20 that the policy requires the tmo to make sure that in an emergency relevant residence needs are prioritized wherever possible um yes i think it yes it says that in terms of emergency yes
01:02:31 terms of emergency yes now barbara matthews gives evidence about vulnerable residents in her second witness statement and i'll bring up the paragraph so you can see precisely what she said
01:02:40 she said um the statement it can be found at
01:02:46 tm0087380
01:02:52 and if we can go to page 13 and paragraph 51 says this i'm aware that
01:03:03 paragraph 51 says this i'm aware that some elderly or vulnerable residents were allocated to general rather than sheltered housing where this occurred information about those residents and their vulnerabilities was collated by housing officers and input onto the tmos databases
01:03:15 input onto the tmos databases now housing officers fell within the scope of your directorate is that right under the neighborhood management team and i would if i could just go back to your previous question that supporting policy
01:03:25 policy and my understanding was not emergencies relating to fire fire safety that that was dealt with under the fire strategy these are emergencies around uh housing management
01:03:36 management tenancy management issues but um yes it was
01:03:39 was housing officers reported into teresa brown
01:03:42 brown who reported to you yeah yeah now is barbara matthews right did housing officers collect information regarding residence vulnerabilities i think that where um they had discussions with people and they were
01:03:53 discussions with people and they were made aware they would have collated that information can you help us as to on which databases uh that information would be stored that would have been to my understanding capital which was the main housing
01:04:05 the main housing management database system um have you heard of personal emergency evacuation plans um yes i have yeah and did you know if peeps had been prepared for residence in
01:04:17 peeps had been prepared for residence in general needs housing by the tmo not in general needs housing um i knew that we were doing them for sheltered housing because it was a different ratio of staff to tenants and it was a supported housing
01:04:29 tenants and it was a supported housing which meant that we would prepare care plans support plans and that would include emergency evacuation but general needs
01:04:38 needs we did not do peeps because we had a staple policy and that wasn't the advice from the fire safety strategy um what was your understanding of the public sector equality duty
01:04:51 um my understanding of that is that you have a responsibility um for the management and uh um safe general well-being of residents
01:05:05 um safe general well-being of residents and how did it apply to your portfolio of responsibilities i think what my portfolio was broad as you know but i did my utmost to try to make sure that all of the teams
01:05:16 all of the teams uh understood their responsibilities around supporting our residents in in in various different ways and they were different depending on the different role that they undertook within the
01:05:27 role that they undertook within the organization thank you now i want to turn to a very separate and distinct topic which is the decision to tender for the refurbishment now you exhibit an operations committee
01:05:39 now you exhibit an operations committee report for the meeting on the 31st of january 2013 at paragraph 50 of your witness statement we can go back to that paragraph which can be found at tmo triple zero double zero eight nine
01:05:52 triple zero double zero eight nine three and page nine
01:06:00 and if we turn over the page a paragraph 51 you say this as stated above the lead building contract for the project was initially going to be a company called lead bitter group who had been used by the rbkc to build the kensington academy
01:06:13 the rbkc to build the kensington academy and leisure center however the cost estimate produced by lead bitters for the project was higher than anticipated and there were some concerns as their expertise now can we look at the section on grenfell in the report you prepared
01:06:24 on grenfell in the report you prepared which is at tmo one trouble zero one nine seven four
01:06:35 and if we go to page three
01:06:40 and looking at item six now there's no reference there to concerns about lead bitters experience
01:06:51 concerns about lead bitters experience can you explain why not which meeting was this sorry if you well go back to if we can go back to the start
01:07:02 operation so operations committee january 2013
01:07:10 yeah okay so if we go back to page three and item six
01:07:16 yeah now there's no reference there to lead bitters expertise can you explain why not
01:07:21 why not reservation concerns about leadbetter's expertise can you explain why not i i can't explain why that wasn't minuted but clearly that was an item for discussion okay let us briefly go to the minutes of the
01:07:32 briefly go to the minutes of the relevant meeting which is at tmo1202631 and page two
01:07:49 and we see at the top of the page sj updated the committee on the grenfell tower regeneration project principal contractor ledbitter advised that costs are likely to be higher than the initially thought 8.5 million pounds
01:08:00 initially thought 8.5 million pounds this matter is in the process of being resolved and the committee will be kept updated about further developments now you can see that there is no verbal update about ledbetter's lack of expertise
01:08:11 expertise there can you help us as to why that wasn't raised i i can't and i can only say that that must have been an oversight
01:08:20 um can we now go to an executive team meeting on the 4th of march 2013 and the minutes are at tm01 treble 0-3105
01:08:38 treble 0-3105 and if we look at item 1.5 headed grenfell tower
01:08:44 we expected to have a position on the way forward by the end of march and sasha jevons would oversee progress because of the reputational risks with the board
01:08:50 the board and rbkc peter madison had prepared two versions of the cattle program for 2013-14
01:08:56 2013-14 one of which included grenfell tower and the other excluded the project which would be discussed with steve meller can you remember now what the reputational risks the tmo were about which the executive team were
01:09:08 were about which the executive team were concerned
01:09:09 concerned i think it was a large project and um it was the first of this nature for the tmo the council were keen for us to complete it and we wanted to make sure that we got it right and obviously you know it was a
01:09:21 and obviously you know it was a challenging project so it needed oversight
01:09:23 oversight and was that the same reason for fearing reputational risk to rbkc i think i think both rbkc and the tmo jointly
01:09:35 jointly recognized that this was a big project and wanted oversight of that now that minute indicates
01:09:41 indicates that you appear to be given a more formal role namely to oversee progress is that right i think the role that mr black wanted me to take was in the
01:09:52 mr black wanted me to take was in the communication role and certainly we all had oversight of the project in in more detail through the programme board
01:10:02 board did your involvement change uh your involvement in the project changed beyond this point to include communications more formally i think i think um i think robert black
01:10:13 i think i think um i think robert black sorry
01:10:13 sorry he wanted me to make sure that that communication and and just the oversight the general oversight given that peter madison reported into me but i think we recognized it as an executive team
01:10:25 recognized it as an executive team because it was an important project that we would collectively monitor that programme board excuse me can i now turn on to a separate topic which is the decision to point ryden
01:10:36 point ryden now um before the grenfell tower refurbishment project had you done many or indeed any public procurement exercises
01:10:44 exercises um in my previous roles i had been involved in procurement yes and would you say that in 2013-14 you are familiar
01:10:55 you are familiar with the obligations imposed under the procurement rules i understood the principles of procurement what i would say is in my previous role as managing director at hyde i again had a technical team that would
01:11:07 i again had a technical team that would have undertook that role so that was my previous involvement directly before tmo but again it would have been done through the technical team
01:11:15 team so my understanding are the over the general principles of public sector procurement i would say and that would include presumably um the requirement that all bidders are treated equally
01:11:25 equally yes absolutely yes now in his evidence the inquiry steve blake of ryden said that he had known you and peter madison from your days at hyde housing um is that right
01:11:36 hyde housing um is that right i certainly at height housing um rydens were
01:11:40 were doing work for hyde it was a big group and um
01:11:43 and um so i had met ryden's through my work at hyde southbank homes but i don't recall meeting steve black at that point i think i met steve blake steve blake blake at the team
01:11:56 blake steve blake blake at the team at the work through the tmo did you know peter madison during your time at hyde yes i did and for how long did you work together there peter madison it was a very large
01:12:07 there peter madison it was a very large group the hyde group so we crossed over for about a year on the same management team now stephen blake suggested that you would meet at conferences from time to time
01:12:17 time for example an annual housing forum at brighton uh would you agree with that yes i would um the how annual housing conference at brighton was uh one of the conferences that most people
01:12:29 one of the conferences that most people in the sector certainly in the south of england would go to and i probably went to a number of times over a 10-year period and would you go to a similar conference in manchester as well
01:12:40 similar conference in manchester as well sometimes i do go to that one yes is it likely that you met stephen blake in either brighton or manchester uh it could have been yes did you are you able to yes i would have
01:12:52 did you are you able to yes i would have done over a period of time yes would you also have met uh jeff henton of ryden at either or both of those conferences yes but did you work with either gentleman on on any other projects other
01:13:04 gentleman on on any other projects other than grenfell um well jeff henton was working on a refurbishment project at hyde southbank homes
01:13:11 homes so um i think when i joined as managing director that project was coming to an end so i'm not sure i work directly with with jeff um do you recall
01:13:22 with jeff um do you recall specifically meeting stephen blake and jeff henton at a conference in brighton uh that was held between the 4th and 6th of march 2014. i can't i can't remember whether that's
01:13:33 i can't i can't remember whether that's one of my the years that i went i'm afraid it's just too long ago can we go
01:13:38 go to an email from stephen blake to tim shuttle and jeff henton at ryden on the 6th of march 2013 which is ryd triple zero eight double six four eight
01:13:56 and he says in the first paragraph at the housing conference we had meetings with senior representatives from knc my opinion is that in the event that we were the successful contractor they would have no issues signing up to a form of documentation as we suggest
01:14:09 a form of documentation as we suggest then moving down third paragraph we've been informally advised that we're on pole position ours to lose now it appears that someone that told stephen blake that information at the housing conference
01:14:21 at the housing conference uh would you agree it wasn't me no
01:14:26 do you know who it was i don't know
01:14:31 now can we move to a separate topic which uh relates to residents concerns and could i ask for a document turned up reference
01:14:44 tm00840302
01:14:51 now on the 14th of december 2015 you attended a meeting arranged by granville compat with victoria borrick mp councillor blakeman peter madison
01:15:02 mp councillor blakeman peter madison and looking at the headings on a note from that meeting there were four issues raised and i'll summarize them for you rather than taking you through the document the location and or relocation of heating interface units secondly an
01:15:15 heating interface units secondly an independent investigation into what had gone wrong including the effectiveness of the complaints procedure
01:15:21 procedure thirdly the state of the building and making everything good at the end of the process
01:15:25 process and fourthly compensation for residents who had spent their own money at making works good in their own homes now is it right that you hadn't previously attended any meetings
01:15:36 previously attended any meetings with grenfell compact before this one yes this is the first one that i attended yes and had you been aware of those concerns
01:15:48 and had you been aware of those concerns before you attended the meeting so i i can only see the first one i can't i can't remember what i summarized them for yes i understand that so the one um the location and relocation of the hius uh i
01:16:00 location and relocation of the hius uh i know that that was an issue um sorry i can't recall the other one now if we go to the second one we if we can scroll down there you go independent investigation to what had gone wrong including effectiveness of the complaints
01:16:11 the complaints procedure yes and scrolling down state of the building were you familiar with those not not the state that i don't i think it's quite a broad one so
01:16:22 it's quite a broad one so um that's not something you're previously aware of no no and finally compensation yes you're aware of that yeah
01:16:35 yes you're aware of that yeah at this stage bearing in mind what had been
01:16:38 been said during the course of this meeting with grenfell compact did you have any concerns or doubts about the way in which peter madison and or claire williams had managed the refurbishment project
01:16:50 refurbishment project um i think it was i think we knew that it had been challenging in terms of resident
01:16:55 resident communication with the project um and that
01:16:58 that the team had worked hard on a num of trying to find a number of different ways to communicate effectively with residents and i think that had been very difficult
01:17:07 difficult and well understood that um and uh we we were trying very much to connect with residents and make sure that we dealt with their issues of concern
01:17:19 we dealt with their issues of concern what specific measures did you initiate following this meeting in an effort to improve relations between the tmo and the residents at grandfather well i i w i went to this meeting and we heard
01:17:31 i w i went to this meeting and we heard the um
01:17:32 the um the feeling and the complaints and so i said right we're going to door knock everybody in grenfell tower and really try and find out directly from every resident or as many as we could get you get
01:17:43 get access to and views from to to really hear their views directly and i felt very strongly about that and that we would do that so i instigated that door knocking exercise as an outcome of this meeting
01:17:54 meeting and we did that with the housing management team the local housing management team and i took part in that door knocking exercise myself because i wanted to to be part of that
01:18:05 because i wanted to to be part of that and i do recall that um i did one one of the people that i did doorknock was mr de farm and i had a detailed discussion with him about uh trying to engage more productively
01:18:17 uh trying to engage more productively and effectively with the tenant compound we had a discussion about that and did it cause you to change your views regarding the effectiveness of the tmo's relationship with tenants
01:18:28 with tenants having heard directly from them as a result of the door knocking exercise i think i think what i would say is that obviously i don't knocked a few people in that
01:18:37 in that but if you looked at the results of it it didn't seem to say the same as what the grenfell action group was saying so it seemed inconsistent and that actually when you don't knocked
01:18:49 and that actually when you don't knocked most people did seem to be happy with the works they under they understood there was a lot of disruption in this type of work but it it did seem to be at variance to to
01:18:59 to to the other view that was being presented so you heard nothing that caused you to change your view no not in that door-knocking exercise now just one final question sir before maybe the afternoon break with your
01:19:11 maybe the afternoon break with your commission uh on a second point an internal investigation it's ministered on page three that peter madison said that the costs of an independent investigation would have to come out of the contract price
01:19:22 price and on page four we can see that there was a request from someone independent of the council on the tmo to investigate the refurbishment now did you have a particular view
01:19:33 particular view on the merits of instructing an independent person to investigate the complaints
01:19:42 i don't recall this particular discussion but i think we had a complaints process in place
01:19:51 in place um and and that was that was usual for most organizations that you would use that mechanism you would you wouldn't always go
01:19:58 always go independently outside of that until such point as you got to the ombudsman level in the complaints procedure so i think it would have been uh unusual really did you
01:20:09 uh unusual really did you tentatively discuss with peter madison the possibility of giving some budgetary support to an invest independent investigation of complaints i i personally can't remember a discussion around this matter and an
01:20:21 discussion around this matter and an independent person i'm afraid i'm sorry sir subject to your view that's probably good a place as any for yes just give us a little bit of help um have you any idea how much longer
01:20:33 have you any idea how much longer you want to be with this witness uh of my prepared questions no more than 20 minutes
01:20:38 minutes well i think in that case we shall have a break now yes well i think we ought to have a break at this point so we'll stop now we'll return at 20 to 4 please
01:20:47 4 please okay and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're away
01:20:52 away all right thank you very much
01:21:04 right 20 to 4 then please
01:39:22 yes would you ask mr jones to come back in please
01:39:28 [Applause]
01:39:38 okay all right ready to carry on stubborn
01:39:41 stubborn yes mr thanks sir mr evans could we go to rbk
01:39:45 to rbk trouble zero three two one three zero
01:39:58 and we will see that on the 6th of january 2016 a petition was received signed by 60 residents of grenfell tower
01:40:09 residents of grenfell tower was discussed at the housing property and scrutiny committee now you attended that with other tmo officers were you concerned to note that 60 residents had signed this petition
01:40:21 residents had signed this petition yes it did seem like a lot of residents and
01:40:24 and were you aware of petitions or complaints of containing that many number of signatories and from any other blocks or estates managed by the tmo we did get petitions from other blocks i
01:40:36 we did get petitions from other blocks i i can't recall uh exactly now but um it would be something that we would get um in the course of our our management on occasions and that was not unusual across my experience
01:40:48 was not unusual across my experience acro
01:40:49 acro across social housing and other organizations either are there as many as 60 signatories i can't recall the numbers but sometimes significant and i know that i in my previous roles i
01:41:00 and i know that i in my previous roles i had received petitions that would have around that number yes and did the fact of the petition and the number of signatories cause you to evaluate whether the tmo is adopting the
01:41:12 evaluate whether the tmo is adopting the right approach to responding to residents concerns at grenfell i think at the time of this meeting um i had done the door knocking a door knocking exercise that we were
01:41:23 knocking exercise that we were just talking about so i think that having personally got involved in that door knocking and um looking at our evaluation of of those
01:41:32 those results of that exercise it did seem at odds with this and so i feel that you know we had um tried to uh investigate through through that process prior to this
01:41:43 through that process prior to this meeting
01:41:45 meeting and if we can turn to page five
01:41:49 in this document
01:41:56 and it's probably the most useful paragraph is the one just above the new heading for a5 where the chairman agreed that a working group would be commissioned at some point in the future but this was dependent on a number of
01:42:07 but this was dependent on a number of factors including the conclusion of existing workshops and review work conducted by the tmo now can you remember did the tmo carry out a review of its complaints procedure or at least the application of its
01:42:19 or at least the application of its complaints procedure in relation to the matters raised by grenfell residents um we did a review of of the project and and the board uh led that a small working group of the
01:42:30 uh led that a small working group of the board led that in terms of a review of the complaints procedure um i think that was something uh i can't specifically recall but uh would have been in the remit of yvonne burch
01:42:41 yvonne burch executive director of people and performance who managed the complaints area
01:42:44 area and can you remember whether there was any further review by rbkc conducted into the handling of complaints made by grenfell residents um i
01:42:56 grenfell residents um i i can't remember i mean uh lord johnson and the team were aware of complaints and through this housing scrutiny committee um they had agreed a working group but whether that was commissioned
01:43:07 whether that was commissioned is i can't recall as a point point for rbkc i think now can i turn to a very separate and distinct to an extent topic which is gas works now in your
01:43:18 topic which is gas works now in your statement
01:43:18 statement from pages 18 to 19 that's paragraph 100 106 you described your recollection of complaints concerning gas works and gtla emailed the tmo march 2017 raising
01:43:30 gtla emailed the tmo march 2017 raising concerns about how they would escape in the event of a fire of the gas pipe that was installed in the stair now if we go to tm01004608
01:43:48 now we can see in the the top part of that page that you emailed janice ray on the 8th of march 2017 and said this has gone to complaints and assets we'll be dealing with it and peter mentioned that carl has done
01:44:00 and peter mentioned that carl has done an assessment for us question mark have you had sight of this now are you comfortable that this is a national grid liability why did you not ask for evidence about how the risk to residence was being assessed and managed
01:44:12 was being assessed and managed during the works i mean i i think i've written this email but i think that um that advice should have come back
01:44:23 have come back from um either the health and safety team or the or the contracts team um and i was seeking a view on that so i haven't specifically written it in this email but i think
01:44:34 written it in this email but i think it's implicit in all the work that we do that we try to understand the impact did you consider that there was any or any specific risk to residents arising from the gas works i think we
01:44:45 arising from the gas works i think we were all concerned about these guessworks that national grid were trying to do and that's why there was a lot of correspondence between peter's team and national grid and janice's team
01:44:56 and national grid and janice's team on how best to manage it and were you satisfied at the end that any risks rising had been satisfactorily managed well i think i think this is uh i'm relying on on the assessment by
01:45:07 relying on on the assessment by carl stokes who's who is our expert in this match and i think that's what i was seeking here from clarification from from janus now can we go to tm00846916
01:45:21 which is a further email from you on the 28th of march 2017.
01:45:29 and if we go onto page two
01:45:37 i won't go through it all but effectively you declined the request to instruct or fund an independent adjudicator you also said that your fire safety consultant had inspected the national grid proposals
01:45:48 grid proposals and all issues he raised have been addressed
01:45:51 addressed [Applause] first of all why did you decline to appoint an independent inspector to check the gas pipes i think i think we felt that the um well i felt that the
01:46:02 i felt that the fire risk assessor was the adequately and appropriately
01:46:08 qualified professional to make that assessment on behalf of the tmo and so that would have been the normal route that you'd follow in investigating this type of complaint did you
01:46:18 did you did you yourself consider how works on a gas riser
01:46:23 gas riser might affect the evacuation plan for residents in the event of a fire i mean i i would say that this is quite a technical point and um i think that that technical expertise was elsewhere in the organization
01:46:34 organization from my perspective absolutely we were concerned
01:46:39 concerned that national grid were doing these works and that they do them properly and we were struggling with the authority over that process really did you ask whether health and safety or anyone else had considered
01:46:51 anyone else had considered whether the evacuation plan had to be altered or at least considered in light of the gas works i
01:46:58 works i i was expecting carl stokes to be making that assessment on behalf of the tmo for us and advising accordingly did you seek expressed confirmation that he had done so
01:47:10 he had done so in relation to an evacuation plan not specifically in those words but i did um seek in that email with janice to say to ask her if she is comfortable with the fire risk assessor's
01:47:22 the fire risk assessor's view on this part on this issue and so is it fair to say that if she'd advised that any interim measures were required to mitigate any risks arising from the gas works
01:47:33 from the gas works you would have expected her to have implemented those interim measures absolutely yeah if there was guidance then we would have we would have done what was needed to have been done
01:47:44 have been done now um you mentioned carl stokes there if i can go somewhat back in time and apologies for doing so to his appointment now you approved his uh initial appointment um to carry out
01:47:56 uh initial appointment um to carry out fire risk assessments on the count on your low risk properties and you signed the statement with mr stokes on the 24th of august 2011. um would you like me to show you that
01:48:07 um would you like me to show you that document or you it's okay it's fine now uh that decision appears to have been made without any form of competitive tendering does that accord with your recollection
01:48:18 does that accord with your recollection i can't i can't recall that process and i think it was shortly after i joined the tmo
01:48:22 the tmo um so i understood that the the procurement was undertaken through janice ray's team so i i can't recall the details of how that how that went
01:48:34 that how that went and and how that was undertaken sorry now he later uh started to produce fire risk assessments for all high-risk properties but there was no written contract um for that work um can
01:48:47 written contract um for that work um can you help us as to why no further written contract was uh entered into with mr stokes for carrying out fras in relation to high-risk properties no i'm sorry that procurement piece and management was undertaken by the health
01:48:58 management was undertaken by the health and safety team so i just wouldn't have gotten involved particularly in that level of detail or it wouldn't have been my area of responsibility and you were simply the signatory and your involvement was
01:49:09 signatory and your involvement was limited to that yes and it could have been i was a signatory because in terms of levels of delegation sometimes you would need an executive director to to sign a document of that nature
01:49:20 to sign a document of that nature potentially on behalf of a colleague anthony parks would you considered it to have been best practice for the terms of mr stokes's retainer to be confirmed in writing i would have
01:49:31 confirmed in writing i would have expected that the team procuring a contract would have done that work and that would have been my expectation and equally would would it have been your expectation that a competitive tendering exercise would have been
01:49:42 tendering exercise would have been carried out to appoint a fire risk assessor for the high-risk properties yes i think any time that we appointed a consultant or a contractor over a certain level of value you'd expect a competitive
01:49:54 of value you'd expect a competitive process
01:49:57 process would you have left it to janice ray to have satisfied herself as to mr stokes's competence and competence and qualifications to carry out fras and high-risk properties um i would have done but janice would
01:50:09 um i would have done but janice would have had the support of her line manager anthony park so i would expected him to help support janice in that and have oversight of that process and who's who was primarily responsible
01:50:20 and who's who was primarily responsible for ensuring that there was a written contract in place in relation to the high-risk fras would that have been janice ray or anthony parks at the time well i think his exec director he would need to have overseen that and
01:50:32 need to have overseen that and how he delegated that function to janice would have been a matter for anthony parks
01:50:38 parks can i now go back also to just some questions um concerning mr webb is it right that he had been previously employed by morrison um he may have done yes
01:50:51 um he may have done yes um were you uh aware of any concerns or apprehensions regarding uh mr webb or his competence before he was appointed md of repairs to route no he he came with a very good um cv and
01:51:04 no he he came with a very good um cv and um he did he went through a vigorous interview process and morrison's is a national company there would have been he he worked for a number of different repairs
01:51:14 repairs contractors at points in his career so it wasn't unusual he wasn't never part of the tmo contract does it flow from that you didn't have any interaction with him whilst uh
01:51:25 any interaction with him whilst uh morrison's working yeah no none at all what was your role in the recruitment of mr webb if any um i can't recall i think i would have been on the interview panel
01:51:38 and does anything do you remember anything in particular regarding uh mr webb's qualifications or expertise that caused the appointment panel any doubt
01:51:48 doubt regarding suitability for appointment no not at all he had a really strong background in responsive repairs and i think we're and and also a good understanding of commercial awareness
01:51:59 commercial awareness and so these were really key skills for running this type of business which which has which was challenging mr evans we've come to the end of my prepared questions um it's usual for
01:52:10 prepared questions um it's usual for there to be a small pause where i can consider whether there's any i should have asked and have not done so um so might i ask for the usual quarter of an hour yes well as council said uh we always
01:52:22 yes well as council said uh we always have to have a break at this point to enable him to check that he's asked all the questions he should have done and also to see whether there are questions from others who are not in the room which we want to put to you so we'll uh have a
01:52:34 want to put to you so we'll uh have a break uh we'll come back at quarter past four
01:52:36 four and then we'll see if there any further questions for you then okay all right thank you thank you very much and thank you thank you
01:52:53 i've been rather generous mr kenya i said quarter past five but no i've said it so that's what it's going to be it's obvious
02:13:34 would you ask mr evans to come back in
02:13:42 please
02:13:53 all right mr evans we'll see if there are any more questions we need to ask you
02:13:56 you yes mr cleo thanks so just two the first question
02:14:00 question relates to your role involving communications during the refurbishment project
02:14:04 project um could i clarify did mr black ask you to get further involved in communications is that communications internal to the tmo
02:14:14 tmo was it communications with residents of grenfell tower no um it was more the oversight of the plan for the tmo to make sure that it was implemented
02:14:25 to make sure that it was implemented so not directly they're not the direct communication with the residents i think it was more the oversight of the plan and making sure that what we were doing was right thank you now my final question is there
02:14:36 thank you now my final question is there anything you'd like to say to the panel um that you haven't had the opportunity to express and answers to my questions today
02:14:43 today um i just um
02:14:47 i just want to say how devastating the tragic loss of life is and always will be
02:14:55 will be um and i hope that lessons allow and the changes are made so it never happens again thank you mr evans
02:15:03 evans thank you thanks so i have no further questions thank you very much wellness germans it only remains for me to thank you very much indeed on behalf of all three of us for coming today to
02:15:14 three of us for coming today to give your evidence i'm very glad that we managed to finish your evidence today as i'm sure you are it's been very helpful to hear from you and we've really benefited from that so thank you very much
02:15:24 very much and now of course you're free to go thank you thank you
02:15:39 well thank you very much mr caneer thank you for today i think that's uh that concludes the evidence for today sir um tomorrow we will start with the evidence of laura johnson who will be examined by mr millet
02:15:50 will be examined by mr millet good thank you very much so we break there and resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow please thanks thank you
02:16:06 you