KCTMO Health, Safety and Facilities Manager Janice Wray testimony on fire safety procedures, risk assessments, and organisational responsibilities at Grenfell Tower.
00:01:48 [Music]
00:03:19 [Music]
00:11:32 [Music]
00:16:17 [Music]
00:16:55 [Music]
00:17:41 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing
00:17:44 hearing today we're going to start hearing evidence from janice ray uh formerly of the tmo yes mr millet mr chairman thank you good morning and good morning members of the panel i now call miss ray please
00:18:06 good mornings ray um i understand you'd like to take the oath i would yes right well there should be a bible there take the book in your right hand please and read the words on the screen
00:18:17 and read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:18:22 truth thank you very much now sit down and make yourself comfortable thank you
00:18:33 right when you're ready mr miller thank you mr chairman mrs ray good morning good morning can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you
00:18:45 we're extremely grateful to you my questions are intended to be short and simple sometimes they don't turn out that way
00:18:49 that way i'm very happy to rephrase the question or ask it in a different way we're going to take scheduled breaks halfway through the morning and halfway through the afternoons but if you need a break at any other
00:19:00 but if you need a break at any other time just say and we can take a break can i also ask you please to keep your voice up
00:19:05 voice up as loud as you can so that the person who sits to your immediate right can get down everything you're saying very clearly and completely also can i just ask you not to nod or
00:19:16 also can i just ask you not to nod or shake your head but to say yes or no as the case may be because nods and shakes don't go onto the transcript now you've made i think 10 witness statements to the inquiry in all
00:19:27 statements to the inquiry in all i'm going to go through them and put them formally into the record but ask you to swear to them um the first was dated 7th of february 2019 at tmo 7 seven five zeros eight nine zero
00:19:40 7 seven five zeros eight nine zero tmo five zeros eight nine zero
00:19:56 um is that the first page of your first statement yes that seems to be can we go to page 56 please
00:20:19 page 56 yes there's a there's a signature above the date of the 7th of february 2019. is that your signature it is yes thank you next one tmo double zero eight four two three four one
00:20:35 zero eight four two three four one if we just have the first page of that
00:20:46 please is that the first page of your second witness statement yes can we turn to page four in that please
00:21:04 and there's a signature above the date of the 24th of september 2019 is that your signature yes there's then tmo double zero eight four seven three zero five
00:21:17 three zero five which is your supplementary or third witness statement dated 20th of july 2020. can we go to is that the first page of that it is yes thank you can we please go to page 39 in that
00:21:28 that signature above the date is that your signature it is yes thank you next one tmo double zero eight six two five eight nine
00:21:38 this is a witness statement dealing with peeps of the 24th of january 2020 if we go to page 3 in that can we see your signature there yes thank you above the date of the 24th
00:21:49 thank you above the date of the 24th january 2020. next one tm00873629 uh is that your statement there dated
00:22:01 uh is that your statement there dated 19th of june 2020 yes and if we turn to page 20 we can see the date and the signature and again is that your signature thank you
00:22:10 you the next one is tm00873934
00:22:19 is that the first page of your witness statement dealing with fire risk assessment queries yes uh dated 21st of august 2020 page 25. and we can see the signature
00:22:30 page 25. and we can see the signature above that date there is that your signature
00:22:32 signature it is thank you next one tmo one zero zero four eight nine seven three this i think is the first witness statement you did dealing with aftermath
00:22:44 statement you did dealing with aftermath uh yes yes and that's dated if we can go to page 10 we can see your signature there
00:22:49 there 13th of march 2019 is that your signature
00:22:53 signature it is yes thank you uh and then the second aftermath witness statement uh at tm00869607 is that the first page of that statement
00:23:04 is that the first page of that statement yes and this uh if you go to page two there's a signature above the date 17th january 2020 is that your signature it is thank you next one tm0087083
00:23:18 is that the first page of your third aftermath statement we haven't got it up yet
00:23:22 yet there it is is that the first page of your third aftermath statement yes and if you go to page nine is that your signature above the date of the 7th of december 2020. it is have you read all of these
00:23:33 it is have you read all of these statements before coming here today yes thank you and can you confirm that the contents of each of those statements are true yes with one exception on my first statement in i think point 82 we left out
00:23:47 in i think point 82 we left out not right which obviously changes the context quite considerably uh yes it would
00:23:51 would okay and we'll come back to that if we need to have you discussed your evidence with anybody before coming here today no i have not but i would like to say that i
00:23:58 i i wanted a little bit more information um in terms of two things specifically deficiencies just numbers and also the review date for our state staff handbook and my colleague adrian bowman still had
00:24:10 and my colleague adrian bowman still had access to the information was able to get that for me but i didn't discuss anything beyond getting that information okay
00:24:21 now um i'd like to ask you first about your role at the tmo and your qualifications and your training i think it's right that you've worked for the tmo since 1996. yes that's right and at the time of the
00:24:32 yes that's right and at the time of the grenfell tower fire on the 14th of june 2017 you were the health safety and facilities manager for the tma i was yes and you held that role since 2011. that's right and is it right that since
00:24:47 that's right and is it right that since the first of march 2018 your role has changed and you're now head of facilities management at rbkc yes although i'm actually on secondment at the moment working on coverage related
00:24:57 related um issues right can i ask you to keep your voice up a little bit and perhaps slow down a bit because i'm i'm not hearing your your answers mr chairman i don't know whether the transcript is keeping up with the
00:25:08 transcript is keeping up with the uh answers mine isn't um but then that means um
00:25:11 means um i think it is it has yours stalled mine is stalled well if you refresh it as i'm sure you know how to i do i will do that and see what happens you may find you'll be all right uh
00:25:22 may find you'll be all right uh it's now not stalled um could you just explain that for us please your role at the time of the fire on the 14th of june 2017 in very brief terms what did it entail
00:25:33 it entail okay um i had my previous job title was health and safety advisor my job title changed whenever i took responsibility for facilities because we were using external offices and we
00:25:44 were using external offices and we needed to have somebody who who undertook that work for us
00:25:48 us my health and safety responsibilities didn't change at that point in time it was very much an advisory role to provide advice and guidance to all the colleagues across the organization in terms of health and
00:25:59 organization in terms of health and safety
00:25:59 safety that would include fire safety i had oversight of the fire risk assessment process we investigated accidents
00:26:07 accidents we managed asbestos quite a range of things really we produced an annual report
00:26:12 report i want to ask you about your qualifications for that role um can we go to your first statement please at page two that's tmo 50890 page two
00:26:23 50890 page two para six you say there that when you joined rbkc in 1986 you started working as a health and safety administrator in the housing department
00:26:34 department and at that time you completed a diploma and a certificate from the national examination board in occupational safety and health that's right otherwise known as nebosh when did you receive your diploma do you
00:26:45 when did you receive your diploma do you remember
00:26:47 remember um i think it was possibly 89 i can't be absolutely sure but it was a very long time ago and after you had received that diploma did you obtain any other qualifications relevant to your
00:26:59 other qualifications relevant to your role
00:26:59 role in health and safety um no i did a management nvq at level five but but not specifically health and safety now since then did you ever undertake any refresher training based on new
00:27:11 refresher training based on new standards in order to make sure that that qualification was kept up to date yes yes my um i'm a chartered member of my at the institution of occupational safety and health um and to be to sustain that
00:27:23 um and to be to sustain that i'm obviously required to do a significant demand of continuing professional development um and to keep that updated and it's audited regularly so there is a requirement to do that but actually obviously i would prefer to be informed
00:27:34 obviously i would prefer to be informed of what's what's current so quite a lot if you look down the page you'll see page eight and it says for most of my career i've been a chartered member of the institute of occupational safety and health see my osh
00:27:47 safety and health see my osh can you just help us when did you become a member of that organization um whenever i've been a member since i started undertook my sorry i beg your pardon
00:27:58 pardon i've had um a role in affiliate role i think until i got my my diploma and then the post experience after my diploma probably a couple of years later i became chartered so being chartered for
00:28:10 became chartered so being chartered for considerable time and you say that you have to do continuing professional development in order to keep that membership up yes um is that annual or more than annual uh it it's fluctuated
00:28:23 more than annual uh it it's fluctuated it used to be on a three yearly cycle but they would send you reminders promptly um but but basically annual yes and would it be desktop done privately by you or would you go to events seminars it would be arranged sorry to
00:28:35 seminars it would be arranged sorry to talk over you um it would be a range of things
00:28:38 things um it um it could it could be seminars it could be briefing it could be demonstrating some skill that i've you know if i've written a new policy or procedure that we haven't done before if we've amended
00:28:49 we haven't done before if we've amended things
00:28:50 things probably the first time we drafted an annual report i would have submitted that to something that we hadn't previously done but there's a fair bit of engagement with
00:28:57 with other colleagues um sorry excuse me are you still a member yes i am you are um did you undertake any particular training
00:29:07 training in order to carry out your role um it was it was ongoing i mean i i was a general health and safety practitioner and so i needed to know um about quite a range of
00:29:18 range of of employee-related um resident related and some
00:29:22 and some construction-based um uh work really activities be able to assess those
00:29:29 those um to carry out risk assessments carry out inspections produce policies procedures reports a variety of things really so i needed quite a broad range of knowledge and skills and experience
00:29:40 skills and experience um and i would target the ones which i felt were perhaps depleted or where legislation was perhaps changing and i would look for the most appropriate um training to see that i see can we go to page 37
00:29:52 to see that i see can we go to page 37 of this statement please and look at page
00:29:54 page 16 paragraph 166 you say there since 20 2005 the relevant fire safety legislation has been the regulatory reform first safety order
00:30:06 the regulatory reform first safety order 2005 rro
00:30:07 2005 rro i recall receiving training on this legislation from one of the fire authorities and via professional journals when it was introduced just pausing there what did that training involve
00:30:19 um would have been briefing on the requirements of the rro um it would have
00:30:27 have gone through um the different articles it would have identified the need for a responsible person what that responsible person would look like and who relevant persons could be what areas
00:30:37 areas of what kinds of premises would be covered by the ro who'd be the enforcement authority it would be it would be quite comprehensive and it's so long ago i know i i went to several
00:30:48 several and some were hosted by the fire authority some were probably hosted by my institution um but uh but i i certainly attended a variety of courses on that because it was very important
00:30:59 was very important yes and was that training regularly refreshed either by the relevant fire authority or the professional journals that you read um there were always opportunities to go on refresh refresher courses
00:31:10 on refresh refresher courses and what i would say is i also participated in um there was some london and southeast initially it was a health and safety group for
00:31:19 group for kind of public sector health and safety housing professionals and then it was followed on by a specific dedicated fire safety group and um i would we would perhaps meet quarterly and it was it was a really
00:31:30 quarterly and it was it was a really useful forum for similar people in similar kinds of organizations to to say what was going well or where they had issues or um uh you know if there was consistent enforcement from their fire brigade so so there were
00:31:42 from their fire brigade so so there were there were different ways really and i would see that as being a bit of continuing professional development did this specific dedicated fire safety group have a name a formal name
00:31:51 name um i think it was called the london and southeast fire safety group but it probably the name morphed slightly as the years went by and who who gave
00:32:00 who gave training what kinds of people gave training training um for well for example um after lachenal
00:32:08 lachenal david crowder from bre um he came and um that the lady who mostly was the chair was called sarah stevenson jones and she was um health and safety manager at
00:32:19 um health and safety manager at westminster city council in their their housing department and so she was quite proactive about going out and sometimes it would be members and senior members of the fire brigade from their policy or enforcement
00:32:30 enforcement sometimes it would just be meetings to discuss specific issues but there was ongoing
00:32:34 ongoing opportunities for um sometimes it would be people
00:32:38 be people who wanted you to buy their product a variety of um yeah now you say you're a member of iosh iosh are you still yes um were you required as a member to
00:32:50 were you required as a member to undertake continuing professional development cpd yes uh what form did that take
00:32:57 that take um uh variety is a formal training it could be briefings it could to some extent it could be attending there was sort of um a local ios group for my sector which
00:33:10 a local ios group for my sector which met um in london and had different themes different speakers so a variety of things really sorry sorry i'm so sorry no no no that's fine did any of it relate to fire safety specifically
00:33:21 relate to fire safety specifically yes most likely it did did again did you go as a member of iosh to seminars conferences events or was it purely or
00:33:29 purely or largely desktop learning privately no no i would have gone as a member of iosh because
00:33:33 because often they there were opportunities um to plug into things that they were running which were the most appropriate sometimes they weren't always housing related and sometimes there was an alternative
00:33:44 sometimes there was an alternative um type of training which was more appropriate to our work environment it was a judgment call really right now you mentioned latino house in your evidence a moment ago yes and we look at your fourth statement
00:33:55 yes and we look at your fourth statement please tmo double zero eight six two six zero six
00:34:01 [Music] uh where you set out details uh page one there are details of the pr of a presentation at lachnall of latino house by david
00:34:12 at lachnall of latino house by david crowder
00:34:12 crowder you mentioned that a moment ago i'm going to examine that a little bit more closely
00:34:16 closely before i do just in general uh you referred to the london and south east fire strategy working group uh and i think you've covered that at paragraph eight of your first statement as well
00:34:26 as well there's no need to go to it my question on that is did you at those meetings ever get involved in any discussion or have any training on specific issues relating to fire safety strategies in high-rise
00:34:38 fire safety strategies in high-rise buildings
00:34:41 buildings i think what i recall is that david crowder's presentation was very specific um around what had led to black and all and how
00:34:49 and how how the fire progressed and and what were the things that we needed to take away and reflect on so i think inevitably because of the nature of the block and the height of block there will be things that related directly but it was much more focused on
00:35:01 directly but it was much more focused on on lacanal rather than being a sort of general
00:35:04 general dialogue but in in general terms in what you learned from the london and southeast fire safety group did that involve anything about fire safety strategies
00:35:15 strategies in high-rise blocks yeah well we would have had regular discussions about how we were all um trying to adhere to the legislation and how we were addressing that so i would have known what other people in
00:35:26 i would have known what other people in the sector were doing um and ultimately with the purpose built flat guide when that was published they were pretty much all adhering to that because the high rise were a purpose build but yeah we would
00:35:37 were a purpose build but yeah we would have had regular dialogue on those issues and what about cladding cladding of the exterior of the building or building envelopes did you remember having any discussion or any training
00:35:48 or any training in relation to that specific topic only in very general terms that it was something that needed to be looked at and and that there were a number of fires across the world where there were
00:35:59 across the world where there were problematic um and there were problems with cladding if it wasn't fire-rated were those uh um you call them fires across the world do you remember discussion at the london
00:36:11 do you remember discussion at the london and southeast fire safety group about those specific fires in particular not really sorry right well we'll come back to that in due course um sticking with the statement on the
00:36:22 um sticking with the statement on the screen as we have it um you say at paragraph three that there was a presentation given by david crowder
00:36:28 crowder on the lachenal house fire to the rbkc and tma staff this was organized by laura johnson and held at the kensington town hall the list of those who were invited can be found in an email and you exhibit it
00:36:40 be found in an email and you exhibit it um was that on the 10th of january 2014 yes i believe so yes and as you say in paragraph four my recollection is that david crowder had already given this presentation twice before once to the london and
00:36:52 twice before once to the london and southeast
00:36:53 southeast fire safety group which i attended and once to the london housing directors group which included laura johnson uh are those the meetings that you've just referred to in your evidence this morning yes i see do you remember whether you
00:37:05 yes i see do you remember whether you received a handout or any written photographic presentational material at any of those meetings i don't recall but actually i have a feeling that i also attended a similar
00:37:17 feeling that i also attended a similar briefing at saviles and i may have had a handout at that stage right um sorry i i think i must have missed that from my statement it was just
00:37:24 just it was this same presentation i think there may have been a handout at that stage
00:37:29 stage saviles as in the estate agents yes do you remember when uh it would be about the same time because he was he um it was a december i think it was possibly the december before or whatever year that 2013 that we've seen
00:37:42 that 2013 that we've seen yes and can you remember in a nutshell if you can what you learned from these presentations on lachnal house
00:37:51 house immediately after the fire what we learned was that the block had a scissor construction um and we we investigated immediately to see whether we had any blocks of a similar
00:38:01 similar construction unfortunately we did not um there were issues about um how the evacuation strategy was communicated to residents um there were issues about um the fire
00:38:14 um there were issues about um the fire safety guidance that was provided by the fire brigade call handlers um there were concerns about remedial works had been
00:38:25 concerns about remedial works had been undertaken and not fire existing standard um i there were a range of things that i do recall now you refer to the saviles seminar if you cover you do actually
00:38:37 seminar if you cover you do actually cover this you do yourself an injustice if you turn the page to page two and look at paragraph eight there's a heading savile's fire safety seminar and you've produced some documents for that uh for a seminar you attended on the 5th
00:38:48 uh for a seminar you attended on the 5th of december 2013. and you say that it included presentations can you see on lachnal house and shirley towers as well as a case study of a rest home the presentation on lachen or house was
00:39:00 the presentation on lachen or house was again presented by david crowder did that presentation cover fire risk management of residential premises do you recall um to some extent inevitably but i think
00:39:13 um to some extent inevitably but i think it
00:39:13 it focused largely on the the technical aspects of what had happened on the day in both
00:39:18 in both in um in all of the specific fires right um i'm panning out then a little bit um
00:39:25 bit um did any of your training at any time up to
00:39:29 to june 2017 concern fire risk assessments yes what well quite a lot of my cpd the obviously
00:39:40 well quite a lot of my cpd the obviously the regulator reform order when it came in introduced the requirement for fire risk assessments in communal areas which was an entirely new concept so there would have been quite a lot of formal and informal
00:39:51 quite a lot of formal and informal briefings and um around around that sorry i wasn't specific i assumed when we talked about regulatory reform i wasn't
00:39:58 wasn't specific when i should have been no that's all right um but let's let me be a bit more specific did any of your training
00:40:04 training uh include uh the specific guidance prepared by the government on fire safety and risk assessments such as the sleeping guide the 2006 sleeping guide
00:40:15 the 2006 sleeping guide i believe so but i can't remember the detail let me just put it up for you see if it jogs a memory rbk3036722 please
00:40:28 this is the first page it doesn't tell you much other than it's orange but if we pan out you can see the whole thing okay i i am familiar with the sleeping guide you aren't familiar with yeah sorry
00:40:39 you aren't familiar with yeah sorry sorry i
00:40:39 sorry i just can't i'm sure i would have had a briefing on it at least on one occasion but i can't remember the details right okay can we assume then in the course of your evidence that you were familiar with its terms
00:40:50 with its terms um reasonably yes obviously i'm not very safe to professional but yeah reasonably no well absolutely next document uh is as you referred to the local government association guidance on
00:41:02 guidance on on high-rise buildings called fire safety and purpose-built blocks of flats published
00:41:06 published in i think july 2011. um let's just have that up please it's hom3045964
00:41:19 hom there it is no there it is again for an all too familiar front page but and the coloring but you remember being familiar with that document yes i had a copy of it on my desk and
00:41:31 yes i had a copy of it on my desk and again could we proceed on the basis that you were
00:41:33 you were you were familiar with it and having a copy on your on your desk would have made you extremely familiar with it yes and then um the next one is uh something called pass 79
00:41:44 is uh something called pass 79 or publicly available specification 79. were you familiar with with the versions published in particularly 2007 and 2012. i was but again i'm not a firefighter
00:41:57 i was but again i'm not a firefighter professional so i wouldn't have known it nearly as well as i would have known all right well we'll come back to that just for ref reference purposes that's cta703 did you have any specific training on the lga guide
00:42:11 specific training on the lga guide yes in fact um the lga guide was produced after quite a lot of consultation across the sector and i was consulted i went to
00:42:20 went to at least one briefing with other similar health and safety housing individuals and we were able to raise issues that we had things that we felt needed to be included and
00:42:31 included and in the course of preparing for this i find an email that i'd sent with some of the issues that i felt needed to to be incorporated um so yeah so we knew it was coming we'd um
00:42:41 um being consulted fairly widely and then when it was um finalized there was um an introductory seminar i believe
00:42:49 believe which might might have been colin todd himself or some of his colleagues who presented it so yes did we may pick this up later on but do you remember what specific issues or matters you wanted to see
00:43:01 issues or matters you wanted to see reflected in this guide as part of that consultation process um actually one of the one of my points was to do with interim measures
00:43:10 measures we were finding that when we in situations where we were not able to complete works within the time frame that um and depending on the nature sometimes we would have had we would
00:43:21 sometimes we would have had we would have advised the fire brigade and they would be looking for intermediate measures
00:43:24 measures but actually sometimes quite difficult to establish what they meant by that um so i think i was looking for some guidance about just even some very general guidance about what would be appropriate depending on which which
00:43:35 appropriate depending on which which piece of plant or equipment would would be temporarily out of use so that was that was certainly one of the um one of the areas um i think i also sought information about
00:43:47 i think i also sought information about um
00:43:48 um the less able-bodied residents and and what we needed to do um you know how far do we need to go what can we do to assist um residents in purpose-built
00:43:59 to assist um residents in purpose-built blocks of flats did you get an answer to that question no i think what happened was they were um
00:44:05 um seeking things that for inclusion so it was sort of a series of emails people were sending off saying um be helpful if you could include this and this but we didn't really get answers that the guide got produced
00:44:16 answers that the guide got produced um in relation to past 79 did you get any training at any stage specifically on the uh september 20 to august 2012 edition
00:44:27 uh september 20 to august 2012 edition of that
00:44:28 of that i don't believe i did were you also familiar with something called the means of escape for disabled people guide march 2007
00:44:40 to some extent but not hugely and what about the lay cause housing fire safety guidance on fire safety provisions for certain
00:44:47 certain types of existing housing which was 2008. yes
00:44:50 2008. yes you did did you get training on that um probably but again i can't remember the detail right just for reference purposes that cst402516 what about uh bs 9991
00:45:01 what about uh bs 9991 the 2015 fire safety and the design management and use of residential buildings do you remember that um again i would have had an overview of it but not not detailed knowledge
00:45:12 it but not not detailed knowledge okay now can we go back to your first statement please at tm050890 page 37 paragraph 166. we looked at the first part of that and
00:45:23 we looked at the first part of that and paused um
00:45:25 paused um let's look at the last sentence together you say that my understanding has always been that the responsible person for the rbkc's tenanted stock as defined
00:45:36 for the rbkc's tenanted stock as defined in that order was both rbkc and the tmo how did you come to that understanding um i think partly it was my interpretation of of the legislation and partly because
00:45:49 of the legislation and partly because we were the managing agents um so in the first instance we had operational day-to-day control so very clearly we were a responsible person however the the tenants and the leaseholders their their tenancy and
00:46:02 leaseholders their their tenancy and their
00:46:02 their um leasehold agreement was with was with rbkc
00:46:06 rbkc um who still were the freeholder for the building um depending on budgets and there were some budgetary issues and policy issues that we would have had to defer to rbkc
00:46:17 defer to rbkc on and actually it was probably specifically in relation to fire risk assessments um no doubt you will ask me about this but in 2009 we had protracted discussion
00:46:28 in 2009 we had protracted discussion with the fire brigade and rbkc which resulted in us tendering for a fire consultancy partner to undertake fire risk assessments and that was very much a joint initiative and in fact
00:46:41 a joint initiative and in fact the progress meetings that happened after the appointment of the contractor for a few years still involved rbkc colleagues coming to sit in in
00:46:49 sit in in the program and i believe they funded it also our initial assessment so there were various factors that i thought indicated that we were both and the colleagues are talking about people like and much more yes
00:47:00 and much more yes yes we'll come to look at those documents in due course but you just said a moment ago it was your interpretation was that just as a result of reading the text of the legislation or was that as a result
00:47:09 result of things you learned from colleagues about how
00:47:13 about how it should be interpreted um i can't really recall to be honest no one ever questioned me on it and i it was always included in my annual report which which went
00:47:24 report which which went um i believe to the council as well as to our board um quite a lot of uh for for a period of time i was having to do a very regular update
00:47:33 update um for board and and i would invariably say for the purposes of the rro and no no one ever challenged me so i therefore assumed that what i was saying was right do you
00:47:45 what i was saying was right do you remember ever having any specific discussion with anybody at rbkc along the lines of rbkc is or is also the responsible person i don't but i would have had regular i
00:47:57 i don't but i would have had regular i did have regular dialogue with the corporate health and safety manager and obviously that person changed over the years but certainly gary mann is someone who was there for several years we would meet regularly and
00:48:08 regularly and he would be wanting to know what we were working on if we had any issues um i can't say i recall discussing it with him but he was also someone who would have had copies of our annual report and would have
00:48:21 of our annual report and would have been kept up to date with what was happening with my risk assessment so in answer to your question i don't think i did but it but i wasn't making a secret of that being my understanding how did you
00:48:32 being my understanding how did you understand that the joint responsibility of rbkc and the tmo as responsible persons
00:48:37 persons worked in practice i think in practice because the team had operational day-to-day control then you know we were doing the lion's share understandably because we were we were
00:48:48 understandably because we were we were in the
00:48:49 in the um we were in that position but there were
00:48:53 were areas where we deferred to rbkc sort of laterally
00:48:57 laterally um whenever we were looking to have a installation program for our self-closers um and when we were looking to have
00:49:04 to have um an inspection program for the same we we had to
00:49:08 we had to raise that with rb cases so it was sort of a big policy a bit budgetary right um yes i i see and in general terms
00:49:17 terms um when one's looking at the fire risk assessment program yes how was the responsibility as the responsible person to be shared as between the tmo and rbkc
00:49:28 between the tmo and rbkc um and there's that mostly sat with us um i
00:49:31 um i i was the one who had um drafted the program
00:49:35 program of properties that needed to be inspected identified um the time frames allocated those to the assessor um and i received the fire risk assessments back and allocated the
00:49:46 assessments back and allocated the actions
00:49:47 actions um they came to progress meetings and they kept to kind of watching brief and would want updates in terms of media reviews and um annual annual reports to scrutiny
00:49:58 um annual annual reports to scrutiny sometimes i would be asked to attend scrutiny about specific issues perhaps fire safety issues but generally the line shares that with with right tml let me ask it this way you've told us that
00:50:09 told us that rbkc had involvement and oversight in relation
00:50:13 relation to fire safety and specifically the fire risk assessment program
00:50:19 why did you think that that gave them a legal responsibility jointly with or together with tmo as the responsible person under the legislation i i think because they were still the
00:50:31 i i think because they were still the freeholder for the building and because the tenants had a tenancy agreement with the council and not with the tmo
00:50:37 the tmo and the leaseholders had a leasehold agreement with the council was this question of joint resp i'm so sorry i cut across here it's my fault nothing um does this question of joint or shared responsibility
00:50:49 responsibility as a responsible person ever discussed by you in any of your forum or uh group meetings or training sessions you ever attended um so that you could see that reflected
00:51:01 um so that you could see that reflected in other boroughs i don't recall that being the case apologies i'm going to change topic now and ask you about an agreement in 2010 or discussion with the lfepa
00:51:15 or discussion with the lfepa can we start please by looking at
00:51:20 rbk401176
00:51:24 this is email correspondence and the uh one at the top of the page is dated the 16th of december 2010 between you
00:51:34 you and laura johnson director of housing at rbkc
00:51:38 rbkc and you're talking about proposed wording from kevin thompson who is environmental health at rbkc for the joint working protocol which was produced by the fire safety working group which would set out the
00:51:49 working group which would set out the responsibilities of the tmo and rbkc for fire safety and if we go to page two of this email run
00:51:56 run so that's the context if we go to page two and we look at the two bullet points towards the bottom of the page what will rbkc do um this is this is kevin thompson's
00:52:09 um this is this is kevin thompson's proposed
00:52:11 proposed wording and it says this kensington and chelsea tmo will undertake the monitoring and inspection of premises they manage to ensure adequate fire safety in compliance with their duty under the regulatory reform fire safety
00:52:23 under the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 rbkc cannot enforce in premises it owns but where deficiencies are identified it will seek to ensure that the kensington and chelsea tmo comply
00:52:34 and chelsea tmo comply with their contractual obligations and legal responsibilities under the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 to ensure adequate fire safety and then he goes on does kevin thompson to
00:52:47 he goes on does kevin thompson to note to laura johnson uh the first bullet point merely reflects the requirements of the law applicable to the tmo so it brings nothing new however the second point puts a clear onus on
00:52:59 the second point puts a clear onus on the council this is surely something we want to do anyway but could i have your comments please
00:53:04 please the bulk of the protocol is good news for the private sector and i'm keen to have a sign up to it but i'm conscious of this obligation in relation to the tmo stock did you share kevin thompson's
00:53:15 did you share kevin thompson's understanding that the onus was on the council to ensure that the tmo complied with his legal uh obligations and responsibilities under the rro um to some extent yes i mean we were
00:53:28 um to some extent yes i mean we were very clear of our obligations and we were endeavoring to comply with them but i as i've said i thought that rbkc had were also responsible persons and also had their own degree of
00:53:39 also had their own degree of responsibilities so if that meant making sure that we were doing what we needed to be doing then then yes can we then turn to the protocol itself uh this is at lfb3032248
00:53:55 uh this is at lfb3032248 show you the first page of this document
00:53:59 there it is protocol between lf epa and rbkc and if we go to page 8 we can see
00:54:06 see the signatures um you could see uh at the bottom paul morsey's
00:54:13 morsey's signature director of environmental health for rbkc 17th of november 2011 and then above that the signature of steve churrick ac for the lfepa 20th of february 2012.
00:54:26 ac for the lfepa 20th of february 2012. did you receive this final signed version do you think i think i probably did can we go to page four
00:54:33 four please at the bottom and you'll see what's recorded there what and under item four what will the royal borough of kensington and chelsea do and i'll just i'll just show this to you
00:54:43 you um rbkc will undertake in line with their statutory requirements the monitoring and inspection of premises identified in section three of this protocol
00:54:51 protocol rbkc will undertake the monitoring and inspection of their own premises to ensure adequate fire safety standards rbkc will enforce fire safety standards in accordance with the provisions of the housing act 2004 and the hh srs having regard to
00:55:05 2004 and the hh srs having regard to relevant documents published by the government including fire safety risk assessment sleeping accommodation etc over the page and in accordance with any guidance
00:55:16 and in accordance with any guidance jointly agreed with elfipa rbkc will when taking enforcement action under the housing act 2004 have regard to the fire safety order as rbkc cannot enforce in its own premises it will ensure that when
00:55:27 premises it will ensure that when deficiencies are identified it takes appropriate action in a timely manner to ensure acceptable fire safety standards are maintained and achieved in these premises
00:55:37 premises and then although rbkc may offer a suitable means of complying with fire safety requirements it will also ensure guidance accompanies all statutory notices in forming owners straight landlords of the need to
00:55:48 straight landlords of the need to undertake their own fire risk assessment ensure that any relevant notice the schedule of work is drafted in such a way as to offer the owner stroke landlord
00:55:55 landlord the opportunity to bring forward alternative means of complying in accordance with their own fire risk assessment and then where such alternatives are brought forward by the owner straight landlord
00:56:06 forward by the owner straight landlord rbkc will consult with elfipa and then it continues um about consultation uh and data etc we can you can read that now just looking at that there's no
00:56:18 now just looking at that there's no reference there is there to the tmo no no do you know why kevin thompson's suggested amendments weren't carried through into the final draft sorry i have absolutely no idea did this protocol reflect your
00:56:29 protocol reflect your understanding of rbkc's responsibilities to ensure monitoring and inspection of their own premises um no not really it didn't
00:56:41 um no not really it didn't no i'm wondering whether i did get the final version because the draft that you showed me with those with those two bullet points i thought they were what were included um right so perhaps i didn't even get it
00:56:52 um right so perhaps i didn't even get it sorry right so do i take it from that that this document the final version did not reflect your understanding of the way in which
00:56:58 which rbkc uh had assumed its own responsibilities at least in this protocol um no i mean this seems to work for in terms of environmental health and
00:57:09 environmental health and and the normal um hmos and things that they're
00:57:14 they're enforcing against but it's not very clear in terms of housing is it right did you not want to see the final version of this document yes i would have wanted to and can you explain why you might not have done
00:57:27 explain why you might not have done no right sorry no
00:57:33 how did in general terms how did you understand that rbkc fulfilled their responsibilities under the protocol so far as you understood it in respect of premises managed by the
00:57:45 in respect of premises managed by the tma
00:57:47 tma um i in in terms of my relationship with with rbkc i would meet regularly with a corporate safety manager and we would have a range of discussions and i would
00:57:58 discussions and i would update him i would be asked to provide updates for their mid-year reports and year-end reports to scrutiny i would be asked for information
00:58:09 i would be asked for information um depending on some areas are because they got very in involved in for example we had issues with leaseholder doors and enforcement of leaseholder doors and
00:58:20 enforcement of leaseholder doors and ensuring that whatever we did we could address potentially non-compliant leaseholder doors and and rbc were very involved in that their legal team and their housing team so so some areas lots of engagement and
00:58:33 so so some areas lots of engagement and um other areas um they were sort of asking for updates asking for me to give them position statements um so a bit of both really
00:58:44 so do i take it from that your understanding of the way rbkc fulfilled their responsibilities under the protocol was topic by topic in other words there were some areas where they were very involved in some
00:58:55 where they were very involved in some areas where they weren't i suppose i mean is that that that's the flavor i'm getting from your evidence is that
00:59:01 that is that accurate or fair um yeah i i would say certainly for a long time they
00:59:08 they and most of most of the time they were very eager to know how we were doing with fire risk assessments and and if there were any issues they knew when we'd done door replacement there were quite a lot of areas that they were
00:59:19 were quite a lot of areas that they were monitoring and quite a lot of areas they were asking for information on but but possibly but definitely focusing more heavily on some areas than others can we then go to tmo double zero eight
00:59:30 can we then go to tmo double zero eight three zero five nine eight
00:59:35 and i'll show you the first page and the last page
00:59:39 last page this is the first page it's entitled tmo fire safety strategy and if we go to page 15 we can see there's a date and a name the name is yours and the date is november 2013.
00:59:51 november 2013. did you draft this um it was drafted in consultation with colleagues but i had oversight of producing the final version yes and it would have gone to our health and safety committee for approval
01:00:02 approval can we go back to page one please paragraph 2.2
01:00:08 under legislation very foot of the screen for the purposes of fire safety legislation specifically the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 fso
01:00:18 2005 fso rbkc and the tmo are considered to be responsible persons and as such must ensure that suitable and sufficient in quotes fire risk assessments are carried out in the communal areas of all residential blocks first did our
01:00:31 of all residential blocks first did our bkc approve that statement um no i don't believe they did do you think they ever saw it i'd be surprised if they hadn't but um i
01:00:42 i'd be surprised if they hadn't but um i don't believe they did do you remember whether there was any discussion of that statement there with rbkc
01:00:50 no i don't i don't recall there being one
01:00:53 one i want them to turn we'll come back to these documents in due course miss ray but i want to turn now with you to the structure within the tmo for managing health and safety generally and fire safety in particular can we
01:01:06 and fire safety in particular can we start please at page 37 of your first witness statement tm050890 page 37 paragraph 167 and you say this as at 14th of june 2017
01:01:19 and you say this as at 14th of june 2017 there was one other assistant safety advisor adrian bowman who'd been with the tmo for many years adrian also held a nebosh certificate and membership of the institute institution of
01:01:30 the institute institution of occupational safety and health i reported to barbara matthews who was the tmo director with ultimate executive responsibility for health and safety and adrian bowman reported to me prior to barbara joining the tmo in 2015
01:01:43 to barbara joining the tmo in 2015 i reported to anthony parks who was barbara's predecessor the facilities coordinator cyril morris also reported to me and had done so since joining the tmo in 2011.
01:01:55 uh now um
01:02:00 at paragraph 168 uh and i think you confirmed that that's correct what you set out there yes that paragraph 168 you say this i've never been a member of the tmo executive or senior management
01:02:11 the tmo executive or senior management teams
01:02:12 teams the reports i prepared on safety performance described below would usually be presented at executive and board meetings by members of the executive team who was it who reported on health and
01:02:23 who was it who reported on health and safety issues to the senior management team
01:02:26 team um so i reported to barbara robert matthews and the our health and safety committee uh was chaired by barbara matthews
01:02:37 was chaired by barbara matthews and also had sasha jevons on it and they reported directly into the executive team
01:02:42 team um so actually any discussions above my level were usually um i might have prepared it but barbara would have presented it and before barbara arrived in is it july 2015
01:02:53 2015 yes it would have been anthony parks would it yes yes it would right now you were a team leader who reported to a member of the executive team i think
01:03:01 think as i say is that that's anthony parks and then barbara matthews yes
01:03:06 and uh did they present the reports that so far as you know um did they present the reports that you had prepared on safety performance two members of the executive team to the best of my knowledge yes yes um
01:03:18 to the best of my knowledge yes yes um now if we go um please to tmo one double zero three one zero seven four
01:03:31 three one zero seven four this is a a a document called health and safety policy tmo health and safety policy
01:03:37 policy and if you look at the bottom of page one there it's signed by robert black chief executive april 2012 can we go to page three in that document please and go to paragraph 2.7 that then that
01:03:49 and go to paragraph 2.7 that then that there sets out the responsibilities of the health safety and facilities manager which was you wasn't it
01:03:54 wasn't it yes and just looking at that i'm not going to read it all out it's a series of bullet points um just just casting your eye down the list was that an accurate description there of your responsibilities um
01:04:09 yes yeah yes so did you have responsibility for the overall definition and design of the tma's fire risk
01:04:15 risk management system yeah but but again that would have been in consultation with other colleagues which other colleagues please um well so
01:04:26 um well so the assessment when what we ended up with was when the assessment came in it came to me the actions were allocated to various teams most of which were in the operational division so i'm not going to set out something
01:04:38 so i'm not going to set out something that doesn't doesn't work for them in the way that it flows through so it could have been it probably was executive team members but also particularly um heads of services in the operations team
01:04:51 heads of services in the operations team so it would have been housing management repairs and contract management particularly i think we may be slightly across purposes um i think your answer was relating specifically to
01:05:02 specifically to actions in response to a fire risk assessment but i'm asking a more general question
01:05:07 question obviously that includes that but but looking at the list of bullet points there
01:05:12 there can we take it that you had responsibility for the overall definition and design of the tmos fire risk management system which would include wouldn't be limited to fras okay
01:05:23 to fras okay um i would be in a position to propose and that would go to health and safety committee and to my executive director with health and safety responsibility
01:05:35 safety responsibility and the decision on something like that would have been made at that level but but it would have been me who would have been drafting and making suggestions and recommendations yes i see okay
01:05:50 yes i see okay so can we take it that subject to your qualification about decision making it was you who held the primary operational responsibility for health and safety at the tma
01:06:01 the tma um yes and no because obviously health and safety is evolved to everybody everybody's got responsibilities and our policy statement made it very clear that in the first instance managers had responsibility
01:06:13 managers had responsibility and they could come and get advice from myself and my colleague adrian and they did
01:06:19 did um so and we have an executive director with health and safety responsibility and we have a chief executive who's got ultiflu so i i think i don't see it that way i see it as being more of a shared responsibility
01:06:30 as being more of a shared responsibility um then yes we were there to advise and to guide yes and to be consulted my question was was with the emphasis on the word operational let me see if i can be a bit more specific if you look at the last
01:06:41 more specific if you look at the last two bullet points in that list uh you can see that this it says advising on compliance with the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005
01:06:51 2005 and then attending relevant internal and external meetings and committees as necessary to update them on tma performance in relation to specific areas of health and safety for example
01:07:02 example compliance with the regulation reform fire safety order 2005. did you understand that you were the tmo person with primary operational responsibility for ensuring
01:07:13 operational responsibility for ensuring that the tmo complied with its legal obligations as the responsible person under that legislation um the reason i'm hesitating is because so much of it was outside my control i recognize
01:07:24 recognize these responsibilities and but a lot of these were met by me having to chase and cajole and harang people who had responsibilities that once they're
01:07:35 responsibilities that once they're allocated to other teams i've lost control of them so my my hesitation is that i couldn't be responsible for the overall control but i had oversight i had monitoring i
01:07:46 but i had oversight i had monitoring i could escalate and those were the things that i did and did all the time but i couldn't ensure i wasn't in a position to to do that
01:07:59 or have i misunderstood your question sorry no
01:08:02 sorry no we may come back to that answer and unpack it in due course but let's let's proceed for the time being um just looking at the question of competent persons did
01:08:15 question of competent persons did under the rro did you know that um the rro particularly article 18 1 provided that the responsible person was to appoint one or more
01:08:26 was to appoint one or more competent persons in quotation marks to assist in the undertaking of preventative and protective measures yes you did
01:08:35 you did you were familiar with you at all times with the concept of the competent person yes were you the competent person at the tmo
01:08:44 tmo yes yes uh now um can we go to
01:08:50 rbk3055531 well we may not need this actually i'll just show it to you because we'll come back to the to the reporting due course but this is a fire safety management review done by
01:09:01 a fire safety management review done by matt hodgson limited uh in september 2013 there's an earlier draft i think from the july of that year and if we go to page 23 at paragraph 3.2.4
01:09:15 um you can see there that he says in the first paragraph under health and safety competent person role the competent competent h s person for kc tma's janice ray so you and that that corresponded with
01:09:29 so you and that that corresponded with your understanding yes okay did you consider that you had sufficient training experience and knowledge to undertake your responsibilities as the competent person um well i had access to fire safety
01:09:41 um well i had access to fire safety specialist and if i needed access to other specialist advice then i i could ask for it and who was that fire safety specialist well initially it was salvus and then it
01:09:53 well initially it was salvus and then it was called stokes right but i also had regular dialogue with
01:09:58 with fire brigade as you know we had regular liaison meetings so it was quite a lot of dialogue um across the sector there were there were
01:10:05 were various people who i could readily consult well let's look at article 18 3 and see what it provides can we go please to hom
01:10:17 please to hom 6040
01:10:19 6040 page 13. i'll just have it up on the screen
01:10:28 uh
01:10:36 safety assistance
01:10:41 did you um were you familiar with the text of this document yes you were
01:10:49 and were you familiar with sub um paragraph three of or sub article three of article 18. yes you were and if we go over the page
01:11:01 yes you were and if we go over the page please
01:11:07 um if you go to article uh five a person is to be regarded as competent for the purposes of this article where he has sufficient training and experience or knowledge and other qualities to
01:11:18 or knowledge and other qualities to enable him properly to assist in undertaking the preventive and protective measures and i take it from your earlier answer that you had or you you thought you had sufficient training and experience and knowledge and other qualities yes
01:11:29 and other qualities yes yes yes
01:11:38 now the competent person has also got to ensure that the means at their disposal are adequate having regard to the size of premises the risks to which relevant persons are exposed and the distribution of those
01:11:49 exposed and the distribution of those risks
01:11:51 risks um can you describe the budget that you had available for health and safety for the tmo
01:11:57 the tmo in general terms i didn't i didn't really have a budget because anything that i needed to be done i escalated it would go to
01:12:08 to be done i escalated it would go to the technical division they they had the budgets um for example when we
01:12:15 when we uh instigated the program of door replacement the man's master door um my role was to identify the trends and the issues being flagged up by the fire risk assessment there was a recurring scene that we had
01:12:26 there was a recurring scene that we had to assure ourselves that the doors the flat entrance doors were adequately fire rated and self-closing um i uh
01:12:35 um i uh escalated that um it went across to the technical division we find a way of finding that information using stock condition surveyors and then the budgetary decisions were
01:12:46 and then the budgetary decisions were all outside of my they just weren't responsibility we're just focusing on the words can we go back to page 13 and just look at um sub article 3 again uh you could see that there is it's for
01:12:58 uh you could see that there is it's for the responsible person to ensure that the number of persons appointed as the competent person um
01:13:08 um [Applause] to ensure that the means at their disposal at your disposal are adequate having regard to the size of the premises the risks to which relevant
01:13:19 premises the risks to which relevant persons are exposed and the distribution of those risks throughout the premises did you
01:13:27 monitor or keep under close control or watch the means at your disposal and the adequacy of those means having regard to the size of the tma stock
01:13:38 stock for which you were responsible as a competent person
01:13:48 yes i think i did um i as i explained i didn't have budgetary control and i didn't have contractors who reported
01:13:59 i didn't have contractors who reported to me
01:13:59 to me so i was reliant i mean the responsible person is obviously the whole is organizational term so i was having to um allocate chase
01:14:10 i was having to um allocate chase cajole escalate do everything within my power to flag up issues which were being highlighted to people who had got budgetary control but i i was reading every assessment
01:14:22 but i i was reading every assessment that came in in every action plan so i could identify issues and trends that were coming our way so that i could start saying we don't have a dedicated budget for this this this is something that looks like it's going to spiral
01:14:34 like it's going to spiral so that that's my my role in this did you ever consider that in your role as competent person uh the you needed better funding or resourcing than you were getting
01:14:46 um
01:14:50 i don't know i mean my my issue tended to be
01:14:55 to be trying to ensure that things were done on time
01:14:59 on time and with the right degree of quality and that could be problematic i'm not sure that i necessarily thought that was budgetary it's difficult to say whether it was there was a contractor issue or
01:15:10 there was a contractor issue or um
01:15:15 not especially there are there will always be health and safety people will always be able to spend money and find things that they want to do but no i don't i don't think that's necessarily an issue looking at the earlier expressions in article sub
01:15:27 the earlier expressions in article sub three it says that the responsible person must ensure that the number of persons appointed under paragraph one the time available for them to fulfill their functions etc are adequate did you feel that you
01:15:40 etc are adequate did you feel that you had enough time to fulfill your functions as a competent person
01:15:46 person if i'm honest i was often spread very thinly
01:15:49 thinly because i had responsibility for the whole
01:15:52 whole of the borough um there's what at least 650 blocks they're all requiring assessments they're all requiring safe precautions safe um and and there was me and my colleague
01:16:06 and and there was me and my colleague in terms of health and safety but that's the resource we had available so we were pretty adept at re-prioritizing on a regular basis and fire safety was always absolutely top of the pile did you ever
01:16:18 absolutely top of the pile did you ever go to anybody either in the executive team or higher and say i am spread very thinly i can't do my role as a competent person properly under the
01:16:29 as a competent person properly under the statute i need help either in terms of resources or personal support i don't recall doing that but people knew
01:16:37 knew my life managers always knew exactly what i was what i was doing exactly the range of activities i was involved with um you know we had regular one-to-ones we had regular catch-ups
01:16:50 had regular catch-ups we just kept re-prioritizing and trying to make sure that we covered all bases and
01:16:54 and and we believe that we did but it but we were very busy in your own mind though did there come a time at any point where you thought to
01:17:06 time at any point where you thought to yourself well i really do do need a bit more help here i think i was aware and i imagine that you
01:17:15 you there are things that you will raise with me that i didn't document that i wish i'd had time to document but i would have always prioritized the putting the procedure in place putting the system in place making sure people were trained actually doing what
01:17:27 people were trained actually doing what needed to be done so sometimes my then recording that didn't happen as swiftly as it it should i mean for example the fire safety strategy where there was a
01:17:39 safety strategy where there was a working draft for a while but it wasn't completed as soon as i would have liked it to be because i was re-prioritizing things which i felt were more important i mean did you have sufficient time and resources as you believed it at the time to manage
01:17:51 as you believed it at the time to manage fire safety responsibilities for the whole of the tmo portfolio in addition to the rest of your health and safety responsibilities um i i'm quite hard-working
01:18:03 um i i'm quite hard-working and i always did i i don't think there's anything that i missed so i feel like we were stretched really thinly but we made it work and in an ideal world and in a different
01:18:14 in an ideal world and in a different sector there would have been more resources undoubtedly but we prioritized it
01:18:19 it and and we made sure that we did what we needed to do and we chased those who were not doing what they needed to be doing as quickly as we wanted them to and we escalated to all sorts of
01:18:30 them to and we escalated to all sorts of committees and heads of um and we kept everybody appraised of what we were doing um can we get back to your first witness statement then please to uh to page 39 and look at paragraph 174
01:18:43 to page 39 and look at paragraph 174 together
01:18:45 together you say there as health and safety advisors
01:18:49 advisors adrian and i monitored the health and safety performance of the tma through various means i gathered relevant information from sources such as the lfb reports of fires accidents dangerous occurrences and changes in legislation
01:19:00 occurrences and changes in legislation and presented this at regular meetings with the tmo health and safety committee i also attended bi-monthly meetings with the london fire brigade lfb and quarterly meetings with the royal borough of kensington and chelsea rbkc
01:19:11 borough of kensington and chelsea rbkc where information was shared what particular matters did you monitor in respect of health and safety performance um well my colleague adrian was doing
01:19:23 um well my colleague adrian was doing in in the early days annual health and safety inspections in the communal areas of all of the estates and which was actually serving as an audit of of the inspections that the caretakers were undertaking so he was like to
01:19:34 were undertaking so he was like to practically ensuring that risks were identified but also
01:19:38 also if you know if the caretakers needed additional resource or additional training or he would be doing one-to-ones with them to upskill them as part of what he was doing so so that was that was ongoing
01:19:51 doing so so that was that was ongoing um we were reporting to the health and safety committee in terms of all of those fire aspects that you you referred to we were advising of accidents dangerous occurrences
01:20:02 accidents dangerous occurrences um there was a range of factors that we were reporting to the health and safety committee which had that kind of remit really
01:20:08 really um in addition what i think is important to say is that because the the um compliance the contract management team was part of the operations division and
01:20:19 was part of the operations division and they
01:20:19 they appointed contractors and monitored those contractors and a lot of the fire safety features were maintained by that team or their contractors i would have
01:20:31 or their contractors i would have regular meetings with the head of that team where i brought my agenda he brought his and and that would be another means of me trying to identify if there are any sticking points if there are any issues i need to be aware
01:20:42 there are any issues i need to be aware of if they're reprocuring what their stats are like if you know if we've got problematic contractors so they were sorry i realize i'm going on but those sorts of things that's helpful thank you just breaking that up first of
01:20:54 thank you just breaking that up first of all in respect of what you call caretakers and i we might call estate service assistance yes um what did you do with the information you got from
01:21:05 the information you got from those individuals um no sorry i misled you
01:21:09 you um i didn't get information well information that adrian was given as part of his inspections on site he would incorporate into his his report um if it related to repairs or actions
01:21:22 um if it related to repairs or actions that needed to be undertaken that there would be um a pro forma that he pretty much completed with us with a summary of any trends he wanted to
01:21:30 to highlight so those would be put through to repairs if they needed responsive items if it was training adrian and i would would endeavor to ensure that either the hr team or whoever that
01:21:43 the hr team or whoever that we tried to we tried to proactively get everything in place we could to assist the caretakers because the esa's because they had quite a difficult job and we wanted to make sure that we
01:21:51 that we helped them to do it as efficiently as they could and how did you go about ensuring that their work was being completed to the the requisite standard um again
01:22:02 the requisite standard um again they they reported to um it may have changed over the years but they were reported to team leader and there was one in north one in the south um ultimately initially they were working off paper records and performers which was
01:22:14 records and performers which was difficult and for a long time we recognized that a pda would be would be better
01:22:18 better once they were able to introduce pdas then we could run regular reports to see what level of checking that they're doing and what what is being identified by their checks
01:22:29 is being identified by their checks again i wouldn't have seen those reports unless i requested them and just with so much going on in the first instance that was their line manager's role
01:22:37 role as we ultimately look to develop a better suite of kpis for health and safety that was one of the things that we plugged into our kpis that would be managed by the health and safety committee
01:22:49 committee and that had had started to happen not as soon as we would have liked but certainly for a year or two it had been in place we refer to reports completed by adrian bowman what do those look like
01:22:59 look like um they were usually a cover sheet uh with
01:23:03 with a summary which might have been issues that he particularly wanted to identify in relation to that estate or that block um and then um there would be uh pretty much a table where he'd identified
01:23:15 where he'd identified his um concern and then who's going to action it
01:23:19 action it and from the start how did you manage that information did you put it onto a system
01:23:25 system no i think this is a kind of recurring weakness um ultimately we had a workflow on our w-2 system
01:23:32 system prior to w-2 um adrian would have requested the orders that he required um from the repairs team or the customer service center or whatever there were different procedures in place
01:23:44 there were different procedures in place but ultimately it went on to w-2 and again that was something that we plugged into the kpis because we could identify the number of issues which we identified and the number that were being closed down but the w-2 wasn't always up and running during the
01:23:55 running during the time so before w-2 how would you process or collate that information it was really difficult it had to be done relatively manually um and in fact one of the audits that
01:24:07 um and in fact one of the audits that was one of the things we were criticized about is not going back and ensuring that what we'd identified was successfully completed um but that was just prior to w-2 so actually we already had that on our radar
01:24:18 radar now the other aspect of that long answer you gave earlier in relates to specialist contractors how did you go about ensuring that the fire safety equipment systems lifts for example were being
01:24:30 systems lifts for example were being adequately maintained um i i did rely quite heavily on what was being identified by the fire risk assessment um those actions were obviously being
01:24:41 um those actions were obviously being allocated to the responsible team but in addition to that and then i monitored whether they were being completed and i escalated to the respective team where there were
01:24:52 to the respective team where there were issues outstanding on a regular basis with w-2 they were able to run their own reports but i still sent them one at least every kind of month or two months to identify what was outstanding and to contribute them along
01:25:03 contribute them along that would get escalated to the health and safety committee um but and and for a while we had an operations health and safety group that looked specifically at that but in addition i think i possibly also mentioned that i would meet with the
01:25:14 mentioned that i would meet with the head of contract management on a regular basis
01:25:17 basis um to get to drill down into the detail of why these things weren't being progressed or other issues that i've been perhaps been made aware of sometimes anecdotal comments from from caretakers esas about performance
01:25:30 from caretakers esas about performance now looking at paragraph 174 in the last sentence there you refer to quarterly meetings with rbkc which quarterly meetings are those um i was probably referring to
01:25:41 was probably referring to there was what was historically called the main health and safety coordinating committee
01:25:46 committee which i think at one stage met every six weeks it was a council committee and we i was invited to attend that um it became slightly more complicated whenever
01:25:57 whenever the council went by borough so then it was a bai boro health and safety group and it had lots of representatives from hamsmith and fulham and from knc and actually it became a bit unwieldy i think and a bit less
01:26:08 a bit unwieldy i think and a bit less helpful but i also met with gary mann the corporate safety manager on a regular basis thank you and whose role was it to ensure that fire safety work carried out by the operations department
01:26:20 operations department health and safety operations for the for the time that it it it existed met with health and safety and fire safety standards in respect of which you were the advisor
01:26:31 in respect of which you were the advisor or competent person
01:26:34 um so i would meet with the head of um who who was literally alex was one we would look in detail at what i where i could see their issues
01:26:46 i could see their issues uh where there was lack of progress where they were perhaps i was being told about contractor performance he would advise me what action he was taking he
01:26:54 taking he for quite a long time had been developing a dashboard in terms of compliance the fire safety bit was unfortunately the last bit which hadn't quite got to but
01:27:05 hadn't quite got to but but he had lifts and gas safety and electrical installation checks and i think lightning protection quite a few of those things went on stream so we had live information um every time he reprocured a con
01:27:18 um every time he reprocured a con contract
01:27:19 contract he um engaged a specialist in that specific field um who i think was probably heavily involved in specifying what was required in terms of complying with the legislation um but in addition my understanding is
01:27:31 um but in addition my understanding is and certainly i know in the case of gas this is the case that they would look to appoint a specialist um in terms of quality control
01:27:39 control what was your role in relation to repairs direct i didn't have one they had their own health and safety person did you have i see did you i say you did you or anybody else at the tmo have audit
01:27:51 anybody else at the tmo have audit rights
01:27:51 rights over repairs directs health and safety systems um i don't know the answer to that to be honest i was always entirely separate from repairs direct so i'm afraid i can't help you you don't know you don't know who who it was who exercised any
01:28:03 know who who it was who exercised any rights of looking into repairs directs processes and procedures and policies and seeing if they were up to
01:28:08 to up to scratch i don't i'm sorry um i'd like to turn to a different topic which is reporting and decision making for health and safety issues um mr chairman i probably won't get through all this before the break but
01:28:19 through all this before the break but i'll make a start yes right um can i ask you to stay in your statement please stay on this page and go to the next paragraph and you say there the tmo health and safety committee met
01:28:30 safety committee met every two months and was chaired by barbara matthews the executive team member with responsibility for health and safety prior to 2015 the meetings were chaired by anthony parks in order to give that committee profile
01:28:41 in order to give that committee profile the director of operations sasha jevons was also
01:28:44 was also a member as with several senior managers and employee safety representatives this health and safety committee reported to the executive team so is it right that between 2013 and
01:28:55 so is it right that between 2013 and 2015
01:28:57 2015 there were two committees dealing with health and safety matters there was the tmo
01:29:00 tmo health and safety committee and the operational health and safety committee yes that's right right what was the difference between between the remits the respective remits
01:29:12 the remits the respective remits of each of those committees um the sort of an answer to that what i would say
01:29:19 would say is the health and safety operations group
01:29:22 group was set up i think it's fair to say directly as a result of us getting a per-audit result um and since most of the risks um and all of the resident safety issues sat in
01:29:33 all of the resident safety issues sat in operations i think sasha's view and i think rightly so
01:29:37 so was that she um create a operations health and safety group to look specifically at the risks that her managers were facing and how they were um how they were dealing with them
01:29:48 them so so that did run for for a couple of years until barbara came in and by that point
01:29:53 point actually there was a lot of duplication and and barbara's position was that we we merged
01:29:57 we merged right that was not sensible really it sounds from that is this right that there was actually no difference in remit in scope of responsibility but but but simply that the operational health and safety
01:30:08 that the operational health and safety committee was looking after the operational side of what the health and safety committee generally was interested in um yes i mean i think it's fair to say that the health and safety committee would always have had the overarching
01:30:19 would always have had the overarching responsibility um and occasionally that the ops group tended to go off down a tangent into some operational stuff that wasn't exclusively health and safety i see um so yeah so i mean in a nutshell
01:30:33 um so yeah so i mean in a nutshell why were there two committees for that for that two-year period i mean truth i think it was with good intentions to drive forward um health and safety to um i i think it was um it had good
01:30:46 um i i think it was um it had good intentions it was to ensure that the culture of health and safety was was spread consistently throughout the organization people were taking their responsibility seriously it was just i think um ultimately we were we were discussing the same
01:30:59 we were we were discussing the same papers and actually there were a number of people who sat in both committees so it was
01:31:02 it was it was probably it had run its course i think right i see and it's right to think
01:31:05 think a matter of record that from this is right the 31st of july 2015 uh the only committee that was dealing with health and safety within the tmo was the health and safety committee
01:31:16 was the health and safety committee of which barbara matthews was the chair that's right yes now if we look on uh in the paragraph we're looking at you say in order to give that committee that's the
01:31:27 order to give that committee that's the operations committee profile sasha jevons was also a member why was it necessary to raise the profile of the health and safety committee again i believe that goes back to the
01:31:40 again i believe that goes back to the audit
01:31:42 audit where we got limited assurance um and i i think one of the things that anthony recognizes is actually we didn't have sufficiently
01:31:53 is actually we didn't have sufficiently senior people on the health and safety committee i think we had historically and then there'd been a bit of a people were sending deputies and and so it was a bit um it needed kick-starting really
01:32:04 um it needed kick-starting really in my question i refer to operations committee sorry i met those mifolds i meant
01:32:08 meant the health and safety committee specifically uh was sasha germans expected to communicate health and safety issues back down as it were to the operations committee
01:32:19 were to the operations committee or department um i think well i think all executive directors are supposed to do that
01:32:24 do that i think that's what our policy statement says and that seems perfectly reasonable position what involvement does sasha jevens as director of operations have in terms of key fire safety issues and decisions um
01:32:35 fire safety issues and decisions um she received the any stats any information i was providing feedback on liaison meetings feedback on deficiency notices so she had oversight of of everything that was what's happening in that
01:32:46 what's happening in that right in that sphere i see and barbara matthews same yes but in a more senior and more decision making capacity yes right now um let's just look and see what she barbara matthews says in her statement
01:32:58 barbara matthews says in her statement to the inquiry her first statement tm0100 49987 page two please paragraph nine she says there
01:33:09 paragraph nine she says there the tmo had a health and safety committee that met regularly while i chaired that committee when i chaired these meetings i made it clear to all those in attendance that janice was the manager and the expert my attendance at these meetings
01:33:21 expert my attendance at these meetings was to highlight the importance that the tma put on health and safety sasha jevons also attended as many matters concerning health and safety uh fell into her directorate would you agree with that
01:33:32 agree with that um not completely because barbara was actually very proactive and very hands-on i think she was um and and at certain times very engaged
01:33:43 um and and at certain times very engaged operationally when we were in dialogue with the fire brigade after we received the adair enforcement notice
01:33:49 notice and when we asked for an extension of time that was written by barbara and not by me
01:33:53 by me um yes i see that she says there that uh her attendance at these meetings was to highlight the importance sorry i'm so sorry she says in the uh second line that she made it clear to
01:34:05 second line that she made it clear to all those in attendance that janice was the manager and the expert would you agree with that um yeah perhaps
01:34:16 now it's right isn't it that between november 2009 and february 2011 you provided a number of reports on fire risk assessment uh and the program for fire risk assessments
01:34:28 program for fire risk assessments generally
01:34:29 generally for the tmo operations committee yes yes and i'll just read the those into the record um the tm0100 34738
01:34:39 34738 at page 33. that's 10th of november 2009.
01:34:45 three there's tmo100374 two two page one a further update on fire risk assessment dated 25th may 2010 tmo double zero eight nine nine eight five two page three an update on fire risk assessments 25
01:34:58 an update on fire risk assessments 25 november 2010 tmo double zero eight nine two nine nine four page four further update on fire risk assessments dated 22nd february 2011
01:35:09 dated 22nd february 2011 and then there were similar reports i think prepared for the tmo board between july
01:35:13 july 2009 and 10. am i right about what i've just said to you i'm sure you are it was fairly prolific because in fairness um we had nearly had an enforcement
01:35:24 um we had nearly had an enforcement notice from the fire brigade so it was really important to scrutinize it and there was commitment to quite a high level that they needed to be updated with progress and they needed to see progress happening so i'm sure you're right yeah and i take it from your evidence that you had a
01:35:36 it from your evidence that you had a formal reporting role to the tma operations committee on health and safety um for a time i think i
01:35:43 think i presented the reports but ultimately in recent years it would have been barbara and um why were you reporting on fire risk assessments to to the tmo operations committee
01:35:54 operations committee because i've been asked to right who asked you to do that um robert presumably right let's just just let's just look at one of those tma one double zero three i'm just wondering whether that
01:36:05 three i'm just wondering whether that would be a good point before we start getting into the documents yes absolutely that's as good a point as anything yes yes of course um as mr minute said we're going to have a break during the morning in the
01:36:16 a break during the morning in the afternoon and i think this is the time to have the morning break so we're going to stop now we'll resume
01:36:22 resume please at 25 to 12 and i'll say this every time you leave the room but please don't speak to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it while you're out of the room okay all right thank you
01:36:33 out of the room okay all right thank you thank you
01:36:35 thank you right would you like to give the usher please
01:36:46 right 25 to 12 please
01:43:14 [Music]
01:43:45 [Music]
01:47:12 [Music]
01:50:38 [Music]
01:54:44 yes would you ask the tray to come back in please
01:54:58 and it's really ready to carry on yes good thank you very much thank you mr chairman mr miss ray i'm going to show you one or two of these documents can we look please at tm0100
01:55:09 documents can we look please at tm0100 37442
01:55:15 okay and at this page 62 and on that page we see a uh a report entitled further update on
01:55:28 a uh a report entitled further update on fire risk assessments and you could see that it's dated 30th of september 2010 and is it right that you stopped producing these specific fra reports for the tma board in or after 2010
01:55:43 for the tma board in or after 2010 we haven't seen any after that i can't i can't recall i thought i had i didn't
01:55:50 didn't produce them at the same frequency because um i wasn't asked to really and there was quite a lot of intensive activity in the early stages but um
01:56:02 in the early stages but um right i'd be surprised if i hadn't produced more that seems like a very long time ago but sorry i wouldn't have the details we've i mentioned a further update of 2011
01:56:11 2011 but and there's one further one in in may 2013 i'll show you that tm010031056
01:56:26 this is a report dated second of may 2013
01:56:29 2013 and it's just it's entitled current tmo position on fire risk assessments do you know who asked for that report sorry i did i don't do you know why it was produced
01:56:40 i don't do you know why it was produced after a gap of some two years before since the previous one no you could see it's addressed to the tmo operations committee does that help you
01:56:50 no i would i would have produced whatever i was asked to produce in the early days after the appointment of salvas that was quite frequent um and said there was update reports
01:57:01 um and said there was update reports being requested by my manager on a regular basis um i'm sorry i
01:57:07 i i can't recall do you know why there were no further reports on fire risk assessments to the tmo operations committee after may 2013. um no i don't i think that would have to
01:57:19 um no i don't i think that would have to be a question for my manager at the time who and your manager at the time was what that would be nancy parks at that stage yes right um can we take it from that answer that
01:57:31 um can we take it from that answer that he was the person who asked you to produce these yes usually and you wouldn't have produced them unless he don't say no because the agendas for all of these committees are set by
01:57:42 committees are set by other individuals um and the usually the frequency of reports is all kind of preset and i'm not really party to that to be honest right and what i probably should say is is the original ones the ones back in 2010 and 2011
01:57:55 ones the ones back in 2010 and 2011 um would have been requested by my then uh line manager who was lornette pemberton it wouldn't have been anthony park said that yes we'll come to lornette pemberton and her role much later on i think okay um there was also at this time and
01:58:08 okay um there was also at this time and throughout i think something called the tmo finance audit and risk committee i believe so right do you know what oversight that committee
01:58:19 oversight that committee exercised over health and safety i don't i'm sorry i don't um sorry i was just going to say that because because anthony parks was um he was the director for finance
01:58:31 um he was the director for finance i'm wondering if the health and safety just fed into that because of his role and because i reported to him but i couldn't say sorry can i see if i can then draw the threads together a little bit
01:58:40 bit uh in relation to the procedure of reporting and decision making on health and safety you reported to the health and safety committee
01:58:49 committee uh and also to the operational health and safety committee between 2013 and 2015. in other words during its lifetime yes yes yes and the health and safety
01:59:00 yes yes yes and the health and safety committee reported to the executive team that's right yes and that in turn reported to the tmo board yes yes you didn't attend executive team meetings did you not unless
01:59:11 team meetings did you not unless requested to and that was very unusual and did not attend board meetings tmo board meetings um i've got no recollection of going toward meetings now barbara matthews for her part
01:59:21 part would would report on health and safety issues both to the executive team and to the tmo board is that right yes that's right now if we can just look at her first
01:59:32 now if we can just look at her first statement of the inquiry please tmo1004 9987 page two paragraph eight
01:59:43 she says there uh just below halfway through the paragraph we would also identify that's you and she what health and safety matters we felt needed to be included in the fortnightly
01:59:54 needed to be included in the fortnightly executive team meetings and the annual health and safety report presented to the executive team and the board
02:00:00 board we we also caught up weekly on a more informal basis now of course this is after july 2015. yes but can you help us how would you
02:00:11 yes but can you help us how would you identify what needed to be included in the executive team meetings and the annual health and safety report um i would be reporting to her on which issues were live what was ongoing
02:00:23 which issues were live what was ongoing any trends any changes in approach from the fire brigade any imminent legislation any
02:00:35 imminent legislation any as we spoke about post black and all there was sometimes suggestions that legislation or best practice would be changing
02:00:42 changing a variety of of different ways really right and for the executive team meetings would you would you provide input on health and safety matters um yes i recall that gen and i found some
02:00:55 yes i recall that gen and i found some i'd forgotten i'd done them um when we had team meetings with barbara so she had four people who reported to her we would usually take along an update for what our teams were busy in doing
02:01:06 for what our teams were busy in doing and i suspect that she used some of that information to put into her um her update to executive team meetings did you help her draft the agenda or did you draft the agenda uh no i think she drafted the agenda she
02:01:18 no i think she drafted the agenda she she would have had that information as a reasonably good starting point and if she had queries or questions or if i thought of anything
02:01:24 anything subsequently that needed to be added i would have um i would have advised her did you draft any reports for the executive team uh if i was requested to um
02:01:35 uh if i was requested to um but you weren't there was no regular no no there was there wasn't a regular no no can i then turn to rbkc's role and particularly its monitoring and scrutiny role
02:01:46 scrutiny role uh can we go back to your first statement please at page 37 and back to paragraph 164 which we've i think looked at
02:01:57 think looked at but in the second half of that paragraph you say this it was always my understanding that the rbkc retained a monitoring obligation under the mma which was exercised by its corporate health and safety advisor
02:02:09 corporate health and safety advisor and its main health and safety coordinating committee which was succeeded by the byboro health and safety committee could you just explain in in general terms how that monitoring obligation
02:02:20 terms how that monitoring obligation worked in practice um in practice it was quite informal um gary mann and i would meet up regularly um might be quarterly but it
02:02:34 regularly um might be quarterly but it might be less often than that it was sort of at his discretion he would let me know when he wanted to meet um and i would go armed with um what was happening where we were at
02:02:45 um what was happening where we were at with fire safety we were at with health and safety any trends any issues any serious incidents or accidents that he
02:02:52 he needed to be aware of we also tried where possible where there was new legislation or guidance to ensure that there was a consistent approach between the council and the tmo about
02:03:03 between the council and the tmo about how we would where possible where we would adopt that um he would sometimes tell me things that were working well with them they might have had particular training packages or whatever that we would want to investigate so
02:03:14 to investigate so it was it was fairly informal but it covered quite a range of um range of discussions now you refer to gary mann
02:03:22 gary mann he i think was the corporate health and safety advisor that's right rbkc yes yes yes and that was so until he left his post in 2015. remember that i do and then samaya yakube was his successor
02:03:34 yakube was his successor and i had the same relationship with her yes and she i think took over in january 2016.
02:03:39 2016. yeah that might be yes and and you worked closely with those advisors did you
02:03:43 you yes reasonably yes and um you met them you say i think is this right quarterly or maybe less they might be less than quarterly but but regularly can you say less than quarterly more frequently than quarterly oh
02:03:55 frequently than quarterly oh no i mean less frequently right less frequently were those uh um individuals or the role of corporate health and safety advisor at rbkc so far as you
02:04:06 safety advisor at rbkc so far as you understood it linked in any way to the housing department um at the time i don't think i really questioned it i i sort of assumed that there was a way that they fed into the housing
02:04:17 that they fed into the housing department but i didn't i didn't question it i asked i answered his questions i gave him the information and i didn't really know if there was a more formal um role in terms of obtaining the information i'm not sure to be honest
02:04:29 information i'm not sure to be honest so far as you were aware which was the rbkc body or person who exercised scrutiny over your work and your functions um it would largely would be the
02:04:41 um it would largely would be the corporate health and safety advisor and not usually the rest of his team um
02:04:46 team um if if there was an incident or an accident
02:04:50 accident or they would come to me um i would give them as much information as i could i would i would happily report back once i had further information from the fire brigade or the health and
02:05:01 the fire brigade or the health and safety executive or whatever um so they were tended to be the people that i dealt with in that regard right but that function sat i think is this right in the court as far as you know the corporate health and safety
02:05:13 know the corporate health and safety uh team or or group and not housing that's right yes right
02:05:22 now can we look and see what gary mann says in his statement rbk3054418 page 8 paragraph 36.
02:05:43 rbk3054414
02:05:47 page eight
02:05:53 yes thank you paragraph 36 he says there was no formal process in place which required the corporate health and safety team to attend at the tmo offices and check them for
02:06:04 at the tmo offices and check them for health and safety compliance or call for their policies and procedures to be checked for compliance just pausing there do you agree with that statement i do you do
02:06:13 you do can we look at samaya yakub's statement to the inquiry this is rbk3054456 page 8 paragraph 35
02:06:30 page 8 paragraph 35 she says there towards the bottom of your screen corporate health and safety did not routinely monitor or audit the general safety arrangements for the tmo i understood that the tmo was audited by rbkc's auditing department
02:06:42 rbkc's auditing department who were on occasion assisted by deloitte i do not recall seeing any audit papers in relation to the tmo or hearing of any significant issues
02:06:51 issues as a result of the audits was it was it your understanding that that corporate health and safety did not routinely monitor or audit general safety arrangements for the tma
02:07:02 general safety arrangements for the tma um yes as i said we the relationship was largely was was fairly informal they advised me what i would i would update them
02:07:13 update them what we were doing what was what were live issues for us and they would often ask for more information but it wasn't a rigorous auditing and monitoring exercise what they're saying is true
02:07:24 exercise what they're saying is true right so you agree with one yes mr coop says there did you ever discuss with samaya cuba the relationship between rbkc and tmo respectively in respect of health and safety
02:07:35 health and safety no but i would have assumed that they were given copies of the audit reports but that's just obviously wrong on my part right did gary man or samara yakub ever comment on or disagree with you on any issues
02:07:48 on or disagree with you on any issues that you raised with them
02:07:52 i'm sure they commented i don't recall disagreeing with them because i would have been uh i'm sure that would just stood out yes and i want to ask you about the health and safety reports which i think
02:08:03 health and safety reports which i think you referred to earlier in your evidence in passing can we get back to your first witness statement please tmo 50890 page 40 paragraph 180
02:08:16 and you say there in the middle of your screen i also produced an annual health and safety report and action plan which outlined the current strategy for the tmo its performance over the last year and
02:08:27 its performance over the last year and its initiatives for managing and improving safety this plan was discussed with the health and safety committee the executive team and the tmo board before the full report and an executive summary was presented to the rbkc corporate health and safety manager
02:08:39 corporate health and safety manager the feedback we received from our bkc's advisor was then used to ident to help identify any additional priorities for the upcoming year what was the reporting period for the
02:08:51 what was the reporting period for the report do you remember um it followed the financial year so my report would have been um from the first of april to the end of march i see um but it often it varied on
02:09:03 i see um but it often it varied on depending on how busy we were but it would usually be i would try and get it ready by the end of june early july which didn't always sit exactly well with the council's reporting um annual report so if they were trying
02:09:16 um annual report so if they were trying to do those before mine was ready then i would have to give them a summary in advance right i was going to ask you about that but invariably the the period and it would have been invariable would have
02:09:27 would have been invariable would have been
02:09:27 been first of april to the 31st of march the report might take a little time after that
02:09:32 that yes do you know why um well first of all do you know what the council's reporting year was i imagine it would be calendar year
02:09:39 year i don't honestly know right i didn't think it was calendar year or financial year i thought it was financial year right so you're only a few days out yes would that did that cause any difficulties uh no when it did i think i recall one
02:09:52 uh no when it did i think i recall one instance where they were under pressure to get their report produced and i didn't have all of my statistics so i wasn't able to finalize ours
02:09:58 ours so i was able to give them a draft and highlight the key themes or the areas where additional information was required and they were able to get what they required and can i assume that you would start to draft your um your annual health and
02:10:09 draft your um your annual health and safety report and action plan after 31st of march in any year yes you wouldn't start work before that unusual unlikely no quite um and would you have any help in drafting that or did you do it on your own
02:10:20 did you do it on your own um i had it was done in consultation with colleagues in the operations teams particularly because i needed to get compliance information from them um for
02:10:31 compliance information from them um for example the numbers of smoke alarms installed
02:10:33 installed the percentage compliance in terms of electrical installation checks etc um sometimes mostly i had the information i needed from the fire brigade because we'd been getting that
02:10:44 brigade because we'd been getting that consistently over the year but yeah it was it was done in consultation with a number of other colleagues certainly in relation to information gathering but in relation to putting pen to paper did you have any assistance or was all
02:10:55 did you have any assistance or was all the writing yours um all the writing was mine but i would have consulted on the draft uh and is it right that barbara matthews after july 2015 reviewed that yes and before that anthony parks yes
02:11:07 yes and before that anthony parks yes right
02:11:08 right and would either of them suggest uh any comments or amendments to your draft uh barbara wood she was quite actively involved and um she may just have reworded things or
02:11:19 um she may just have reworded things or she might have asked me to include additional things i can't recall the detail but she definitely would have been quite involved but not anthony parks
02:11:25 parks not so much not so much and would that document then be presented to the finance audit and risk committee as well as
02:11:31 as the tma um health and safety committee uh i believe so uh uh uh and on what occasions was it normally presented to the tmo board do you know i don't i'm sorry
02:11:43 board do you know i don't i'm sorry right
02:11:44 right did you ever receive any feedback or further questions from either the finance audit and risk committee or the tmo board about the contents of your reports
02:11:51 reports your health and safety reports i can't recall any i i wouldn't rule it out but i can't recall a specific instance i'm afraid
02:12:02 um did you create an action plan every year
02:12:06 year um i don't think i did every year but i think that was probably just um just
02:12:14 um just lack of time really right lack of time well lack of yes lack of time just to draw it up there was always one in my head that we were kind of working to but it always made more sense if it was documented and
02:12:25 made more sense if it was documented and i endeavored to but i don't think i can say that i did one every year right well i just want to ask you one or two questions about a specific um health and safety action plan this is for
02:12:35 for june 2016 for the year 2016 to 17 in it and it is at tm01 triple zero 7728
02:12:57 and we have to i think go to the the native document in that
02:13:27 yes that that's the one dated 14th of june 2016. can you see yes and it's paper 11. so clearly it was presented to a meeting am i right in thinking that it would have been um the
02:13:39 have been um the well you tell me it says kcgmo health and safety committee 14th of june paper 11. so that committee yes and
02:13:49 yes and not from i mean would it go onward upwards from the health and safety committee to the main board yeah well it certainly would go to executive team and they would made a decision about whether it goes further right
02:14:00 about whether it goes further right now just looking simply at the first page
02:14:04 page item a maintained fire safety across stock
02:14:08 stock continue ongoing program of fire risk assessments etc how much input did barbara matthews have into that document she was in in place by then wasn't she she was yeah um
02:14:17 um yeah she she would have definitely made comments right do you know whether rbkc's health and safety advisor would contribute i don't think i would have consulted him
02:14:28 i don't think i would have consulted him on this level of detail right i see so can we take it that no advice would be sought from anybody at rbkc in relation to your action plans such as this
02:14:38 this i don't think so right did the did these reports
02:14:42 reports and action plans inform the uh rbkc's housing department contribution to the joint corporate health and safety committee's annual report
02:14:54 annual report um sorry sorry would you mind running that by me again yes um do you remember that there was such a thing called the joint corporate health and safety committee annual report
02:15:06 safety committee annual report that was produced by the corporate safety advisor yes yes yes and did these reports go to that person
02:15:13 person um no i don't believe so um i think the annual my annual report health and safety report went to the corporate safety advisor and then any subsequent information that
02:15:25 and then any subsequent information that he requested not probably this level of detail
02:15:28 detail because they were producing one report for the whole of the council at all of the different departments i think it was probably too much detail for them do you know if this report or reports like it were put before
02:15:39 before any rbkc committee such as the housing property and scrutiny committee not to my knowledge no now it's also right to think that you wrote reports or parts of reports for
02:15:50 wrote reports or parts of reports for use by rbkc didn't you for example i'll give you an example ldlga report extinguishing the risk a councillor's guide to fire safety um
02:16:01 a councillor's guide to fire safety um let me show you a document yes please sorry rbk303060
02:16:16 sorry rbk303060 um this is uh a document which was going to go to a committee
02:16:21 committee looks like it was going to go to the housing environmental health and adult social care scrutiny committee 15th of march 2010 okay lga report extinguishing the risk
02:16:32 extinguishing the risk a councillor's guide to fire safety and uh if you go uh down to the very bottom you can see page four that uh although it's signed
02:16:46 page four that uh although it's signed robert black and laura johnson yeah you're right it must have been me uh yeah because of the contact so it must have been you um
02:16:57 so it must have been you um is it right that you also drafted the health and safety sections of the tmo's performance reports for rbkc yes you did and you did that i think is this right with celia chaliscan
02:17:08 this right with celia chaliscan yes i think they were coordinated by my colleague janet seward and then janet would have sent whatever we thought was our final version cecilia if celia had concerns
02:17:19 version cecilia if celia had concerns she would come back to me directly thank you i want to turn to a different topic now which is the start of the fra program and salvas his fra management report in 2009
02:17:32 in 2009 now can we go please to your second witness statement
02:17:38 tm00842341 page one paragraph three you say there following in the introduction of the regulatory reform first safety order 2005
02:17:49 order 2005 which abandoned the need for fire certificates in favor of a risk-based approach to fire safety the tmo was required as part of its management function to ensure that fras were undertaken and documented for all communal areas across its stock
02:18:02 for all communal areas across its stock and then you go on a paragraph four to say in
02:18:05 say in late 2008 early 2009 the tmo of ekc and london fire brigade lfb entered into discussions about the suitability and sufficiency of the tmos fra program these
02:18:16 of the tmos fra program these discussions resulted in a joint decision to procure specialist consultants to undertake fres across the stock and adopt a risk-based approach to the fra program now is it right that before 2009
02:18:30 now is it right that before 2009 the tmo did not engage external consultants to undertake fras at all that is right so it was all done in-house was it yes with um the introduction of the ro
02:18:41 yes with um the introduction of the ro um there was a sort of belief that less complex buildings could be could be assessed by internal uh colleagues with with a degree of training um which
02:18:52 training um which seems to have been fairly common across similar organizations in in our sector um
02:18:58 um i think we got to the stage where we knew that that wasn't sustainable um we were having dialogue with with the brigade who were saying these aren't suitable and sufficient and we weren't challenging that what we
02:19:09 and we weren't challenging that what we were trying to clarify for a number of months was what the fire brigade's view of suitable and sufficient looked like and we had some very specific issues that we were trying to get clarity on
02:19:21 that we were trying to get clarity on and i won't bore you with them i can if you wish but um it was to do with secondary means of escapes which no longer took you to a place of safety um and building control we're saying you don't need to do anything with these
02:19:32 don't need to do anything with these building rigs aren't retrospective and the fire brigade was saying yeah you need to sort this out you need to look at finding an alternative means to get people so so actually it was it was quite a big issue for us in terms
02:19:43 it was quite a big issue for us in terms of clarifying what needed to be done and potentially finding a budget and because i was getting a conflict i'd arranged a couple of site meetings with parties from both organizations and there still wasn't clarity
02:19:54 there still wasn't clarity um at which point the the fire brigade lost patients and said you need to sort this out now or we're going to issue an enforcement network now just breaking it down a little bit
02:20:05 now just breaking it down a little bit who was it in-house at the tmo who was undertaking fire risk assessments before september 2009. it was mostly my colleague adrian bowman
02:20:13 bowman adrian bowman what qualifications did he have to do that so to speak he didn't have the degree of qualifications he he needed he um in terms of of what we now require
02:20:24 he um in terms of of what we now require um but at the time the fire brigade were aware that that's what we were endeavoring to do and initially they were unfazed by that approach
02:20:32 approach and what input did you have from rbkc on the fra process of product or production before
02:20:39 before september 2009 [Music]
02:20:42 [Music] so the conversations with the fabricate started in the june and at that point rbkc were very engaged in the in the process of agreeing what we were going to do
02:20:53 of agreeing what we were going to do um and adopting a risk based how we were going to do it no sorry my question was what input did the rbkc give in the process of in-house production of fire risk
02:21:06 of in-house production of fire risk assessments they didn't none right now you've mentioned
02:21:11 mentioned the threat of an enforcement notice uh in 2009 that was the 17th of june wasn't it
02:21:18 wasn't it yes yes and they they wanted a competent person to carry out risk assessments do you remember that yes they wanted them to be suitable and sufficient yes let's look at as a document can we go to lfb three
02:21:29 as a document can we go to lfb three zeros three one seven sorry three one nine seven seven page twenty
02:21:35 twenty three
02:21:41 lfb3031977 page 23.
02:21:46 this is a an nfb document and it identifies that on the 18th of june at the very top of the box
02:21:57 the box there was a discussion between team leader sangster ltl sangster and alexis carrera who was health and safety advisor for kensington and chelsea council
02:22:08 chelsea council stating they will be employing a risk assessor and putting money aside to implement all the works necessary he asked if they do this will tl sanction not issue enforcement notice clankster agreed on the provision that
02:22:20 clankster agreed on the provision that the council tma provides us with a schedule of works uh were you aware of that discussion at the time uh yes i believe that i
02:22:31 that i i was alexis correa was health and safety advisor in i think what was then the social services department and how come it was rbkc indicating that it would employ a risk assessor and pay for necessary
02:22:43 a risk assessor and pay for necessary works and not the tmo do you know i don't know right was the threat of an enforcement action or enforcement notice the principal reason behind the appointment of a consultant and the implementation of a risk-based
02:22:55 and the implementation of a risk-based fra program uh no i don't think that's really fair comment
02:23:00 comment we were we knew there was an issue and we were working with them to clarify what standards they require so that whatever action we took um actually demonstrated the approach that that the fire brigade wanted
02:23:12 that that the fire brigade wanted and that was quite protracted and a bit frustrating really and still hadn't been resolved um so we had we had already agreed that things would be different but we were
02:23:23 things would be different but we were just trying to clarify high different um and then um things took another course really right now let's go to uh the minutes of a meeting about fire risk
02:23:34 the minutes of a meeting about fire risk assessments in early august 2009 at rbk3018535 this is the minute of a meeting on the 6th of august 2009
02:23:45 6th of august 2009 as you can see um between rbkc tmo and the lfb now you're not identified as having been in attendance that's right keith holloway was there for tma properties
02:23:56 for tma properties and also from rbkc you can see there was gene daintith and laura johnson what was keith holloway's role um i think he was an interim director um i can't recall what his room he might
02:24:09 um i can't recall what his room he might have been an interim has a management director i'm not quite sure right do you know why you weren't at the meeting i wasn't invited
02:24:16 you don't know why you weren't invited no i don't sorry um was the detail of the discussion that this meeting reported to you yes it was did you see a copy of this meeting minute afterwards i think i did yes
02:24:28 minute afterwards i think i did yes who reported the detail of the discussion to you um i'm i'm just presuming it must have been keith holloway right can we go to page two please item
02:24:40 five you can see there fire risk assessments is the title there and it says uh anger sanctity stated that the tmo risk assessment so far had not been up
02:24:51 risk assessment so far had not been up to a satisfactory standard he explained that through conversations with the officers currently carrying out the fire risk assessments he felt they did not have the level of understanding required keith holloway explained that the fire risk assessments
02:25:02 explained that the fire risk assessments would be carried out by the consultants and the service had gone out to tender anger sangster nfb suggested the tmo showed the lfb a copy of the pro forma before
02:25:10 before risk assessments are carried out keith holloway tmo suggested it might be beneficial for lfb to meet with the chosen contractor before any risk assessments were completed angus thanks to confirmed he would be happy to do this
02:25:24 happy to do this now looking at the first part of that where mr sangster is recorded as having say said that the tmo risk assessments were not up to a satisfactory standard did you think that that was a fair
02:25:36 did you think that that was a fair observation um i think we've been quite clear for from our protracted discussions with the lfa prior to this that they were not happy with the assessments and
02:25:49 were not happy with the assessments and believed them not to be up to satisfactory standard and therefore it was agreed that we were going to act upon that
02:25:55 upon that and act promptly the difficulty had been clarifying the standards that the brigade
02:26:02 brigade um required in relation to a few specific but really quite important areas that's what it caused a delay so it's a little bit frustrating but anyway right okay
02:26:14 but anyway right okay but in fact this problem had been ongoing i think since 2008 and culminated in this episode
02:26:21 episode yes because because we'd had um on-site meetings with building control and the fire brigade and there still wasn't a consensus about what what standard i'm supposed to follow in
02:26:32 what standard i'm supposed to follow in which way which way forward now if you go to the very bottom of the screen and count up seven lines you can see that angus sangster is recorded as saying this or asking whether the council and tmo felt that three years would be
02:26:44 felt that three years would be acceptable to carry out risk assessments of all the properties they're responsible for see that yes and then both gene danger and keith holloway agreed angus sanctuary asked whether the council and tma felt that five years would be
02:26:55 tma felt that five years would be acceptable to carry out all the significant findings identified by the risk assessments for all the properties they're responsible for gene dentist and keith holloway agreed were you aware of that discussion and
02:27:07 were you aware of that discussion and agreement
02:27:07 agreement yes i was you were and then if you go to page four item 10 you can see there it says in the second full paragraph up just above item 11.
02:27:18 full paragraph up just above item 11. it says keith it says angus sangster nfb replied he feels tma need to develop the level of competence amongst their staff he also suggested a member of staff from the council stroke tmo could be seconded
02:27:30 the council stroke tmo could be seconded into the lfb in order to gain experience of fire safety procedures were you aware of that discussion presumably you were if you saw this minute
02:27:37 minute uh yes but it it never amounted to anything but i was going to ask you was anything done ever to pursue that suggestion um the the offer was never was never
02:27:49 um the the offer was never was never made
02:27:50 made formally other than the suggestion here um
02:27:53 um it was it was did anybody at the tmo ever
02:27:57 ever actively seek to take lfb up on it uh not to my knowledge i don't know i can't speak for keith holloway but not to my knowledge right was anything else done to develop the level of competence
02:28:08 done to develop the level of competence among tma staff well yes but also there was quite a lot done to develop our relationship with the fire brigade so that we wouldn't have areas where that where the standards were unclear um we well no that's not that's not
02:28:19 um we well no that's not that's not quite my question i'm just pressing you a little bit okay you could see that the lfb tells tmo that it needs to develop the level of competence among their staff yes was anything done to develop the
02:28:30 yes was anything done to develop the level of competence among tma's staff adrian and i would have had additional training
02:28:37 training definitely um and i i can't speak for i'm i would be speculating i'm sure there was but i can't remember the detail
02:28:48 was but i can't remember the detail and what was the additional training you received in response to this uh we would have sought out fire related rro fire risk assessment type courses in terms of of being the the housing
02:29:01 in terms of of being the the housing manager that the landlord because that was what our responsibilities were going to be now where we're going to have competent contractor to do the assessments
02:29:14 from whom did you seek those fire related rro risk assessment courses i can't remember as i'm sat here now but i would have always checked with my institution
02:29:25 always checked with my institution i would have checked i may have asked for um a steer from the fire brigade about what they would recommend i may have asked salvas i don't know i would there's a range of possibilities but i can't recall the detail i'm sorry and did that training
02:29:37 detail i'm sorry and did that training whatever it was educate you as to how to go about
02:29:41 go about instructing a fire risk assessor and making sure you knew what to expect from a competent fire risk assessor yes i believe so right did that training
02:29:54 right did that training educate you at that stage uh and don't forget this is this is early on uh
02:30:01 on uh it's just 2009. um did it did it educate you as to the content of past 79 2007 edition yes i would never have been an expert on
02:30:14 yes i would never have been an expert on past 79 and i didn't think that i i needed to be but i would have i would have had an awareness of it i would have known where to consult it i would have had an overview of it yes can we then
02:30:26 had an overview of it yes can we then move on to the story january 2010 lfb three zeros three one nine 31977 please
02:30:35 page 30 in that run of documents
02:30:40 this is a letter dated the 27th of january 2010 and it's from uh you as you can see
02:30:49 uh uh you can see that it's from gene daintith and laura johnson uh on page one and it's addressed to mr
02:31:00 uh on page one and it's addressed to mr sangster compliance with the rro and if you go to page two you can see that it's signed by robert black and forgive me i'll just wait a moment page two robert black and laura johnson
02:31:13 two robert black and laura johnson respectively uh if you um go back please to page one looking at the first paragraph page 30 it says further to our recent meeting
02:31:25 meeting at your offices with pam sedgwick rbkc's housing client side manager and janice ray the tmo's health and safety advisor we right to confirm our commitment to complying with this legislation and to
02:31:37 complying with this legislation and to set out our approach to achieving compliance were you aware of this letter when it was sent do you think um i think it quite likely i drafted it oh i was going to ask you that you think you drafted it is that
02:31:49 that you think you drafted it is that because
02:31:50 because under the date it says please ask for janice ray yes yes and uh did did this agree the action points set out in the letter
02:32:01 out in the letter um doctor is supposed to promise yes if you look at the bottom of page 30 and over to page 31
02:32:09 yes i believe this was just confirming the discussions that had been had with the brigade that these were the points that they'd set out and this is what we had um progressed so this this this id this is a record of what was agreed at the
02:32:21 is a record of what was agreed at the meeting you were at yes yes thank you now um if we go to uh the very bottom of page one and look at the third bullet point there it says appoint a competent fire safety consultancy partner
02:32:33 consultancy partner to undertake the fire risk assessments at each of the 110 potentially high risk blocks did the phrase fire consultancy partner mean anything specific
02:32:42 specific to you in in relation to the level of qualification of the fire consultant that was agreed with the lfb
02:32:50 um farquhar's fire safety consultancy partner wouldn't be a term that i would have used generally
02:32:57 generally but in the in the procurement process my procurement colleagues were advising that this is this is how we define people
02:33:04 people in terms of competency we set that out in um
02:33:07 in um in the tender what we would accept what we would expect competency to look like was there any discussion at this stage about
02:33:18 about competence about what competence was
02:33:21 was in this context in this context um sorry can i see dying to the bottom yes of course we turn to page two page 31 which is page two of the letter
02:33:39 um i'm i'm i doubt it because the consultant had been appointed we had all the things that we said we'd shared the pro forma we'd done joint site
02:33:50 the pro forma we'd done joint site visits we'd um ask the brigade to attend progress meetings
02:33:55 meetings so they'd been fairly heavily involved um so i don't recall there being um and they and they were happy um i don't recall there being specific discussions about comprehensiveness just just panning out from this detail
02:34:08 just just panning out from this detail of this document this is january 2010 yes now you will remember that in the september of 2009 salvas had been appointed uh to do fras for the tmo stock do you
02:34:21 uh to do fras for the tmo stock do you know why
02:34:23 know why uh what we see in this letter is being discussed at this point january 2010 when in the summer of the previous year the tma will already run a selection process for fire risk assessors and it appointed
02:34:34 fire risk assessors and it appointed salvas
02:34:36 salvas um i don't know actually i'm assuming it was a bit of a belt in braces perhaps it was a
02:34:44 it was a the four monthly progress meeting perhaps it was to coincide with that just to confirm that these were the original discussions this is what we said that we would do we're just confirming that that's what we've done because because the engagement with the fire brigade
02:34:55 engagement with the fire brigade had been ongoing constantly throughout so so they were aware of this i i'm assuming somebody wanted a formal record like an audit trail of of what we've done i see and does
02:35:08 of what we've done i see and does maybe that there's a clue to this in the last before fourth bullet point uh at the bottom of page 30 seek a commencement date if we go back to page 30
02:35:20 last bullet point on that page
02:35:28 seek a commencement date of september 2009 for the programme of fras at high risk blocks and completion within six months
02:35:35 months uh i mean this is now almost uh the end of that six-month period so was this essentially backward-looking at least this part of the letter
02:35:46 least this part of the letter i i'm assuming so i i assumed it was to sort of confirm what that we had put in place what we had agreed with the fire brigade would be put in place right now if we go um back to page two
02:35:57 right now if we go um back to page two of this letter first bullet point at the top of the page you can see it says this evaluate the performance of the fire consultant and resource permitting adopt the same approach to completing the fras of the medium and also the
02:36:09 the fras of the medium and also the low-risk properties aim to undertake the program of medium-risk fras at the conclusion of the high-risk program aimed to commence the low-risk program immediately on the completion of the medium risk project
02:36:20 medium risk project um now at this stage january 2010 the high risk project wasn't quite completed and the is this right the medium and low risk hadn't even been put out to tender yet that's right so this part is
02:36:32 tender yet that's right so this part is forward-looking yes yes um what can you help us with what was discussed in terms of evaluating the performance of the fire consultant there um at this meeting i
02:36:44 um at this meeting i i doubt much was was um discussed i think the fire brigade were happy with the progress we were making they wanted to be assured that it was going to be sustained and ongoing
02:36:55 it was going to be sustained and ongoing um and so
02:36:56 um and so that's what we said our intention was to to meet the three-year deadline that they had set out um but i i doubt the detail as you say we hadn't yet completed the high risk were there any criteria or objective
02:37:08 were there any criteria or objective standards formulated or identified at the meeting to allow you to evaluate the performance of the fire consultants so to speak not that i recall right would you agree
02:37:19 not that i recall right would you agree that it appears that that there was an agreement
02:37:22 agreement for this to be done not only for the high risk properties but also the medium and low risk properties if resources permitted
02:37:29 permitted um i
02:37:33 um i yeah i think the resource permitting was was about do we adopt the same approach um but i can't really confirm but yes you're right right and was the agreement that rbkc would
02:37:46 and was the agreement that rbkc would also
02:37:46 also evaluate the performance of the fire consultant or was this just the tmo doing that no no it was very much a joint um a joint initiative and what system then was established for our bkc
02:37:58 our bkc to evaluate the performance of the fire risk assessor um well they were attending all of the progress meetings so they could see where
02:38:04 where we were at in terms of progress being made against the program and they could see the issues which were arising how they were being addressed um and they could see the
02:38:15 addressed um and they could see the interaction with the fire brigade and the fire brigades requirements so so they were sort of party to the head overview of of the process and who at rbkc would do that you mentioned and i mentioned and much more
02:38:26 mentioned and i mentioned and much more earlier on i think it was still and much more at a later time she was replaced by roger keane i believe but at this stage i think he'd still learn much more and you've covered this i think but just ask
02:38:34 just ask answer me again if you would what would rbk sees evaluation
02:38:40 involved
02:38:46 right i think i mean they've got really the same to go on as as i have um i can't recall exactly how we did it it's quite likely that we had a meeting with
02:38:56 with janet reims our professional services officer who's from the procurement team and kind of sat down and worked out if we had got what we expected delivered from salvas you know
02:39:07 you know clearly we were getting the fras we were largely getting them on time their plans were coming a bit late but that wasn't a deal breaker we made quite a lot of progress in terms
02:39:18 we made quite a lot of progress in terms of
02:39:19 of um there are quite a lot of repeat issues
02:39:22 issues coming up sometimes because they hadn't asked for documentation um so there was there was definitely a feeling that we were getting a lot of actions that perhaps with a bit more preparation um and on our part as well as the
02:39:35 um and on our part as well as the consultant that actually would have meant less actions coming out of the assessment so so i think we learned a great deal i think we were perhaps slightly naive going into it about the the scale of what we might be asked
02:39:48 the the scale of what we might be asked to provide um sorry i'm not sure i'm answering your question
02:39:52 question um can i then turn to the instruction of salva specifically go to your second witness statement tmo double zero eight four two three four one
02:40:05 uh at page two paragraph nine you say there that salvos was instructed by the tma to carry out fras at 110 properties within the rbkc's housing stock identified in
02:40:18 the rbkc's housing stock identified in this list as potentially high risk and then you exhibit uh jw3 a list it's that that for note purposes
02:40:25 purposes only is it tmo double zero eight four two three seven four we don't need to go to that
02:40:31 to that am i right in in saying that the high risk list
02:40:35 risk list included grenfell tower yes it did and salvos were instructed at the start of september 2009 i think went there yes they were
02:40:42 they were in fact the contract was signed on on the 2nd of september and by um by the tmo and on the 7th of september by andrew furniss for salvas um now in the light of that
02:40:54 for salvas um now in the light of that can i then ask you about um the
02:40:59 document produced by salvas on the 22nd of september 2009 only three weeks or so after they were appointed and this is at sal 6013
02:41:15 it's entitled fire risk assessment for fire safety policy and procedures conducted on behalf of the tmo i summarized by salvas
02:41:26 summarized by salvas and uh you um you can see on page five if we just go to page five the date top right hand corner 22 of september
02:41:37 top right hand corner 22 of september 2009
02:41:38 2009 yeah and i'll call this for shorthand the salvas management report if i may can i go to the first two paragraphs of the introduction on page two
02:41:50 it says there this fire risk assessment this fire risk assessment management report has been completed at the request of russell thompson head of asset strategy and investment of
02:42:01 head of asset strategy and investment of the tenant management organization tmo of the royal borough of kensington and chelsea
02:42:06 chelsea this management report reflects information gathered on the fire safety management systems of the tmo in respect of its property portfolio as per contract agreement dated second september
02:42:16 september 2009. see that yes uh it looks as if it was the tmo that instructed uh
02:42:27 it was the tmo that instructed uh salvas not rbkc is that right yes that's right
02:42:30 right yes do you know who within the tmo received a copy of this report um i certainly did and imagine russell did and i would imagine everyone who saw
02:42:44 did and i would imagine everyone who saw this regularly dealt with so i'm imagining it would be janet rhymes and and much more right was it shared at an email in an email exchange or at a meeting do you remember
02:42:55 remember uh i think it came in by email right now i'd like to show you some of the topics that were highlighted by salvas in it if we go to page five please again
02:43:08 in it if we go to page five please again and look at paragraph 1.1
02:43:12 you can see the hazard column there and under 1.1 it says lack of a tmo fire safety policy statement
02:43:20 statement then if you look across to the fourth column
02:43:24 column in italics it says there does not appear to be an
02:43:27 to be an overall tmo fire safety policy statement setting out the organization's strategic fire safety objectives including reference to achieving full compliance with the requirements of the
02:43:38 with the requirements of the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 wherever it applies to premises managed and or occupied by the tmo and which is formally endorsed by the chief executive on behalf of the
02:43:49 by the chief executive on behalf of the tmo see that yeah and then and look if you can at 1.2 1.3 on page five and 1.4 on page six just read those
02:44:01 on page six just read those briefly to yourself 1.2 lack of or inadequate tmo policy and arrangements and you can see what's said in the italics under the existing control measures there you see
02:44:13 existing control measures there you see that
02:44:13 that yes and then 1.3 lack of inadequate recording systems eg logbook and or fire safety manual and you can see what's said in italics there under the existing control
02:44:24 there under the existing control measures column and then if you turn the page to six page six top of the page one point four lack of or ineffective managerial audit of fire safety arrangements and again you can see
02:44:36 arrangements and again you can see what's said in italics there you see that i've shown you albeit a bit briefly perhaps
02:44:44 perhaps um the hazards and the identified existing control measures uh and those which are not adequately controlled did you agree with salvas's conclusions in the italics
02:44:57 with salvas's conclusions in the italics uh some i did and some i didn't how we we didn't have a written fire safety policy statement um at that stage that that's correct
02:45:08 um at that stage that that's correct um i i looked at this report recently and there are a number of things on here that probably shouldn't have been on here however um some some of it yeah it was absolutely valid um of the four i've shown you already
02:45:21 um of the four i've shown you already one point one two three and four did you disagree with any of those um i think with regard to the the one about the premises log that that
02:45:32 the one about the premises log that that was just not going to work for us um it would not we wouldn't have been able to ensure that contractors were going to complete that every time they attended the premises and so i think we that's 1.3 yes i
02:45:44 and so i think we that's 1.3 yes i believe so sorry it's not on my screen no foot of page five let's just have it up please 1.3 you say that was impracticable yes when i when i researched it with colleagues and neighborhood and housing management
02:45:55 and neighborhood and housing management colleagues particularly um it was felt that that wasn't um going to work some specific pieces of of kit for example lyfts are
02:46:06 pieces of of kit for example lyfts are very good at having a log sheet on site with some information um but having one document that's coordinated in one location and getting all of the planned preventive maintenance contractors to complete it
02:46:17 maintenance contractors to complete it every time they come to the property it just it just hasn't been possible for us and then to police it to go to the site to make sure that it's being um completed is a challenge as well right
02:46:28 completed is a challenge as well right but just just to be very clear apart from the impracticability of uh 1.3 yes you agree i think do you with the conclusions in italics relating to 1.1 1.2 and 1.4 i agree that we hadn't
02:46:41 1.2 and 1.4 i agree that we hadn't documented um our arrangements in terms of fire safety at that stage now let's just look at that a little bit more closely could we please go to tm0086972
02:46:53 tm0086972 page 495
02:46:59 this is [Music]
02:47:04 [Music] a document called health and safety policy
02:47:07 policy statement of intent uh and if you go to the bottom of the screen if you scroll down to the foot of page 495 you'll see it's signed by
02:47:18 page 495 you'll see it's signed by gordon perry dated july 2003 yeah that policy as i say appears to be dated
02:47:25 dated july 2003 was that the only policy that was in force at the time of salvus's review in september 2009. i'm sorry i i can't recall it's
02:47:37 i'm sorry i i can't recall it's it's not a fire safety policy is it no no it's it's a health and safety policy statement
02:47:42 statement um but i i'd be surprised if there hadn't been one in the intervening years but i
02:47:47 but i i don't recall i i i i take that point and i was going to ask you it doesn't appear to have been updated since the introduction of the fire safety order or the rra rather in 2005 we haven't seen a document ditch
02:47:59 in 2005 we haven't seen a document ditch which did that do you know why that is i don't know why that is and i'm really surprised if that's the case did you provide this document to salvas before they completed their report do you know sorry i don't know is this is this the first time you've seen this document do
02:48:11 first time you've seen this document do you think
02:48:12 you think um for a very very long time yes right going back if we can then to the solvus fra management report please sil 6013
02:48:24 please sil 6013 can we go now to page 19.
02:48:29 this is the action plan the first page of the action plan as you can see at the top uh and you can see the key there's color coding on the right hand side
02:48:40 side uh see that yes uh and if you go to the i'm sorry yes on the right hand side key to color coding red statutory breach amber best practice
02:48:51 red statutory breach amber best practice straight guidance green consultant recommendation additional uh life risk protection you see that yes and if you um then go to the
02:49:02 and if you um then go to the action plan itself on page 13.
02:49:11 uh we start with 1.1 uh and they go up through the pages from page 13 to page 19. i've counted 19 areas where the tmo was
02:49:23 i've counted 19 areas where the tmo was considered to be in statutory breach in other words had a red mark next to the item um that's my counting would that be right i mean it's a question just of counting
02:49:34 mean it's a question just of counting but
02:49:34 but would that surprise you 19. um if you've counted them then right that must be the case okay and if we look at the second column priority
02:49:44 priority priority rating um the majority of the items which are flagged red if you just scroll
02:49:48 scroll down the pages are a priority rated three or four take that from me that most of them are that means
02:49:59 that means a rating of three means that the action needed to be taken within one month that's right isn't it yep we go to page 19 perhaps we'll see that more clearly
02:50:11 key to priority rating three undertake action within one month four action within three months or agree plan within six months so you say you were aware of that
02:50:22 so you say you were aware of that presumably when you you saw their work and you saw how it worked yes yeah and now if we go back then to page 13 and look at a specific action action 1.2
02:50:33 action action 1.2 it says there and again this is mostly marked red it is you see that it is strongly advised that adequate policy and supporting arrangements are introduced to explain
02:50:44 introduced to explain how tma will meet the objectives set out in the strategic policy statement service to ensure suitable and sufficient fire safety is maintained at all times throughout the managed estate property portfolio
02:50:56 estate property portfolio and that as you can see had a priority rating of four it was a red item with a priority rating of four
02:51:03 of four that means that it should have been actioned within three months or a plan agreed for it within six months yes was that your understanding at the time of that specific item yes
02:51:14 at the time of that specific item yes and if you go to page 18 page 18 item 9.3 you can see there
02:51:26 it is it is strongly recommended that tmo
02:51:30 tmo consider development of formal procedures to deal effectively effectively with fire safety issues associated with disabled or vulnerable tenants and leaseholders and also any employees
02:51:41 employees this should include a range of options for relocation in severe cases with or without potential property adaptations and fixed fire suppression systems
02:51:49 systems to the provision of specific personal emergency evacuation plans in those less serious cases see also recommendations in hm government guidance of building regulations approved document m so you could see
02:52:02 m so you could see from that that there was also a red four in relation to disabled and vulnerable tenants and leaseholders and employees yes
02:52:13 how did how did you plan to address that deficiency at that stage do you remember
02:52:20 at that stage i think my housing management colleagues were starting to gather
02:52:27 gather more information about vulnerability i know over the years the method by which they did that fluctuated
02:52:35 my plan was to work with the housing managers
02:52:39 managers who knew their residence and and get them to identify anyone they had concerns would not have the ability to be alerted to a fire or to respond to a fire
02:52:50 to respond to a fire um and that wouldn't always result in in a peep
02:52:55 a peep because it in some cases it would have been about their sensory deprivation which could have been and in some cases was rectified by
02:53:06 rectified by um changing how the automatic detection in the dwelling worked so that they could be alerted in some cases we
02:53:19 in some cases we certainly had some quite a lot of involvement with people who'd been identified as potentially hoarding in those cases what we did was um some cases they needed uh cooker in
02:53:32 some cases they needed uh cooker in extreme cases sometimes they needed cookers to be cut off there was a range of things
02:53:36 of things that we had in place we would ultimately and we did in a small number of cases produce a peep but the reality is we would would be unlikely we would have had any staff who
02:53:47 unlikely we would have had any staff who could assist because so we would have been quite constrained by whatever people was drafted
02:53:52 drafted if if the person who was vulnerable had family who could assist that would be great if they could if there was a fire in the dwelling and they had the wherewithal to leave the flat and close the door then potentially at least initially they're in another
02:54:04 at least initially they're in another compartment called the brigade and hopefully the fire brigade would be able to assist but it was going to be a challenge um let me be a bit more general um you you were given a list of red deficiencies some 19 in all
02:54:16 deficiencies some 19 in all i think on peeps specifically because we'll come back to it very specifically later on and what you've just told us but in general terms how did you plan to address the deficiencies highlighted in
02:54:27 address the deficiencies highlighted in the report okay um there were there were a number that were relatively straightforward to deal with there were issues which we we did fairly promptly about amending
02:54:38 we did fairly promptly about amending the esa's checklist so that we ensured that they were attacking all of the additional fire safety issues the final exit door the signage the emergency lighting etc and we did the same for the
02:54:51 etc and we did the same for the community officers who worked in the specialized housing schemes they were they were done pretty swiftly as you know we'd identified a need for flat entrance doors
02:55:02 flat entrance doors to be investigated further that was that was put in in train and ultimately led to a substantial number of replacement doors and there were issues raised about staff training
02:55:13 training but the consultants hadn't asked for the staff training records so we revisited that but that was in place there were issues raised about workplaces there were quite a lot of things which
02:55:24 there were quite a lot of things which um
02:55:25 um i'll give you an example i believe there's one in here about leaseholders gas appliances and that the tmo should make sure that these are serviced under the terms of the lease those
02:55:37 under the terms of the lease those aren't our obligation but for many years we had written to every leaseholder annually pointing out the value of having their own appliances inspected and serviced and
02:55:49 appliances inspected and serviced and also advising them if they sublet their property and took on the responsibility of a landlord that they actually under the terms of the gas safety installation and use regulations
02:56:00 regulations they were required to service these for their tenant so there were some things which were already here and actually aren't reflected and there were quite a few other things that we were able to to resolve
02:56:11 resolve quite swiftly i completely take on board that
02:56:14 that it took far too long for us to put in writing
02:56:18 writing our policy statement for our safety strategy
02:56:21 strategy um but it was a working train for a substantial period you're going to come to that yeah okay we're going to come to that into course now can we go to rbk3053571
02:56:38 this is a report for the tmo board dated the 8th of october 20 to 2009. uh and if you go to page three we can see that your name is on it which is why i'm putting it to you that
02:56:49 which is why i'm putting it to you that you prepared that document right that's right isn't it yeah and um you can see that at page two paragraph three point four it says a further meeting was held with
02:57:01 it says a further meeting was held with salvos on 24 september to enable them to have sight of our fire safety policies procedures planned maintenance contract etc the feedback from this meeting is that generally the tmo have good
02:57:12 generally the tmo have good fire safety policies and procedures in place however these have not been consistently documented therefore the tma must review and update our fire safety policy and procedures to more accurately and comprehensively reflect our good practice
02:57:24 reflect our good practice the tmo health and safety team has now started work on this review was the meeting on the 24th of september 2009 itself minuted you know sorry i wouldn't know normally they were
02:57:35 sorry i wouldn't know normally they were um so if not i'd be surprised what um fire safety policies and procedures did you sell this at that meeting do you know i don't know right did you show them the 2003 policy
02:57:47 right did you show them the 2003 policy from with gordon perry's name at the moment i'm sorry i don't know i don't know
02:57:51 know you don't know um
02:57:55 [Music]
02:57:58 uh no and do you know why your report to the board here doesn't comment on many of the urgent and critical concerns raised by
02:58:09 urgent and critical concerns raised by salvas
02:58:10 salvas in their 22nd of september 2009 fra management report i think because of timing the board the board was on the 8th of october the meeting um agenda goes out
02:58:21 the meeting um agenda goes out whatever number of days in advance the report has to be ready but actually i don't think i received the salvas report until november because i reread a progress
02:58:32 november because i reread a progress meeting in november and it said um it seemed to confirm that i'd only just received it i think although it's dated 22nd
02:58:38 22nd september i don't believe i got it until several weeks later right so you think that the 24th of september meeting happened before you'd seen the 22nd of september report is that right
02:58:51 september report is that right um yes i'm sure that is the case yes right
02:58:58 at at the 24th of september meeting do you remember whether salvas went through
02:59:05 through the 22nd of september report at least in outline
02:59:09 outline i don't believe that they they did i i reread
02:59:12 reread the minutes of the progress meetings and i think it wasn't until november there was reference to it but i think we didn't discuss it then because it seemed to be worded that i'd only just received it and i hadn't had the opportunity to digest it but we did
02:59:24 the opportunity to digest it but we did discuss it subsequently um and that the issues that i've raised with you about training and um leaseholder gas appliances and all of those things are all kind of said out in point uh
02:59:35 are all kind of said out in point uh i mean do you can you explain why your report to the board contains no comments at all
02:59:41 at all which are urgent or critical well as i say i don't believe that i had received that report and anything i'd had from them verbally at that at that point
02:59:53 at that at that point hadn't raised any any concerns that needed to go to are you saying that at the 24th of september meeting salvas didn't let on to you that they
03:00:05 salvas didn't let on to you that they had identified 19 statutory breaches with a risk rating of three
03:00:10 of three three and four absolutely sure that they didn't you're sure that they didn't well unless you tell me otherwise i may sign corrected but i i really don't think that's okay and what about by the 8th of october are you sure that by even by that stage
03:00:22 are you sure that by even by that stage you had no idea is this right the the that salvas were going to make those criticisms i don't believe that i knew but yeah i honestly don't believe that i knew and if i did it was it would have been
03:00:34 and if i did it was it would have been really remiss of me but it doesn't sound like something i would do
03:00:40 what input well did anthony parks have any input at this point um i think it was still lorna pemberton at that stage right was rbkc briefed about the nature and significance of the failings identified
03:00:51 significance of the failings identified by salvas
03:00:52 by salvas when you eventually did get it i would be confident that and much more had a copy of the um of the document and then it got discussed at various progress meetings
03:01:03 discussed at various progress meetings which she would have been at some of those
03:01:05 those yes yes indeed let's go to one of those january 2010 rbk3052572
03:01:14 this is the progress meeting of the 26th of january 2010 you can see that you were there as was and much more from rbkc and andrew finesse of uh of salvas
03:01:26 and andrew finesse of uh of salvas um did she have a copy or did you have a copy of the 22nd of september 2009 salvage report there at the meeting or you'd already seen it uh don't know well i definitely already seen it by
03:01:37 well i definitely already seen it by then yes but i've had and much more seen it by then can we take it that she had okay yes i can only assume at this stage that yes yes uh now this was a progress
03:01:49 that yes yes uh now this was a progress meeting
03:01:49 meeting in relation to high risk blocks um were meetings like this set up to meet regularly yes um this sorry i was just going to say
03:02:00 um this sorry i was just going to say that this is the progress meeting with salvas so we were trying to have them at least once a month for the duration of the contract when was the first one um well we had a pre-start meeting with them
03:02:11 we had a pre-start meeting with them where we introduced them to the fire brigade
03:02:14 brigade sometime in september and then then there presumably would have been a meeting in october sorry i'm not sure but i think we we largely did have one per month right now if we
03:02:28 right i'm just trying to get i'll come back to this in a moment i'm just trying to get to the bottom of your evidence about when you first saw the 22nd of september salva's report you say you didn't have
03:02:40 salva's report you say you didn't have it at the meeting of the 24th of september
03:02:42 september and you hadn't had it by the time of your eighth of october report that's what you're telling us well that's that's what i remember right do you do you think you had it by by december i think i had it by november
03:02:54 by december i think i had it by november because i think there's a november meeting that references it but memory is not as great as it should be sorry
03:03:01 be sorry right let's then look at
03:03:06 tmo double zero eight seven three six two three please
03:03:23 this is a report
03:03:28 of the 10th of december 2009 by you as you can see but if you go to page
03:03:40 as you can see but if you go to page two you can see paragraph 4.5 you tell the board
03:03:49 you see yes uh we have also received a management report from the consultant which sets out the fire safety framework within which we and our contractors should be working there's no hint in that sentence there
03:04:02 there's no hint in that sentence there or anywhere else in this report we can find
03:04:05 find of the 19 statutory breaches or any statutory breaches identified by salvas in their 22nd of september 2009 report do you know why that is no i
03:04:16 2009 report do you know why that is no i don't but any reports that i drafted for the board would have gone through my line manager and she would have also had a copy of the report so um i i can't give you an explanation for
03:04:27 um i i can't give you an explanation for that they certainly should be referenced yes but do you do you remember remember passing on even the gist of the cr the criticisms made by salvas in their september
03:04:40 made by salvas in their september management report to the tmo board um i can't recall doing it but but i would have lonett and i would have spoken about it at length so um unless she perhaps took something to
03:04:53 unless she perhaps took something to them i'm unaware of right do you ever remember a discussion about how much if any of that report you were going to communicate to the tma board no i don't
03:05:04 board no i don't can you account for why on the face of it
03:05:08 it this paragraph says absolutely nothing about any of the statutory breaches or any of the defects in fire safety management that service had identified in that september management report
03:05:19 september management report no i can't give you an explanation let's get back then to the progress meeting note please if we go to this is
03:05:31 seven rbk3052572
03:05:35 uh if we go to page three please at the bottom
03:05:40 it says uh under uh four salvus management report fire safety policy and procedures 4.1 janice had prepared a list of queries she wanted to raise with salvas
03:05:52 queries she wanted to raise with salvas and these were circulated and discussed responses given as follows numbering relates to the points on the management plan and then follows if we scroll down to page four
03:06:03 to page four and on a list of some 15 bullet point queries and at the bottom of page three for example you get back a page 3.1
03:06:15 you get back a page 3.1 and i'll just show you one or two examples it says jw advised that training records are available from the hns or hr team and then bottom of page four
03:06:26 and then bottom of page four item 9.1 to penultimate bullet point there
03:06:30 there jw advised that the tmo emergency plan is available to all staff on the intranet
03:06:35 intranet af confirmed that this would be sufficient providing all staff have access to the internet jw advised that this is the case and then top of page 5 9.3
03:06:46 then top of page 5 9.3 requirement for formal procedures to deal effectively with fire safety issues associated with disabled or vulnerable people jw outlined the tma's current approach and as they have to clarify this
03:06:57 and as they have to clarify this requirement af suggested a more a formal documented system needs to be implemented i've shown you those really as a selection and it doesn't appear that you raised those
03:07:08 it doesn't appear that you raised those queries with salvas on the 24th of september 2009 or did you um sorry i i
03:07:18 sorry this these this is january yes this is january this is the 26th january i'm sorry i don't know it'll be whatever it says in the minute right do you know would you remember what documents you did show or policy documents you did show salvas
03:07:30 or policy documents you did show salvas at the 24th of september 2009 meeting no right it appears from this meeting or the note of this meeting that actions identified in that management report
03:07:42 identified in that management report still required actioning is that right some did definitely yes and were you still required to put in place an adequate policy and supporting arrangements to explain how the tma will meet the objectives set
03:07:53 how the tma will meet the objectives set out in a future strategic policy statement
03:07:56 statement to ensure suitable and sufficient fire safety is maintained at all times as per action point 1.2 from the 20 you did you were
03:08:04 were we still were required to do it because we hadn't had the opportunity to we were trying to
03:08:09 trying to go through all of them identify what we already had in place that service may or may not have been aware of identify what was left figure out what the priorities were get on and do and you were required to do that in line with the time scales in that plan which
03:08:21 with the time scales in that plan which was
03:08:21 was either three months or agree a plan within six absolutely and what were you doing
03:08:25 doing agreeing a plan within six or actually doing them within three i couldn't do them within three i didn't have the capacity to right did you ask anyone at rbksa to give you the capacity to do it within three
03:08:37 the capacity to do it within three no why is that um i i can't tell you really i i don't think i thought that was an option i was hoping to get through it as swiftly and
03:08:49 hoping to get through it as swiftly and effectively as possible and we made quite a lot of progress in quite a short space of time but no we didn't get through it all in the time i would have wanted to right but i mean why not go for the
03:09:00 right but i mean why not go for the three months rather than just a plan within six given that given that rbkc were on this effectively at this meeting they were at the table so to speak why not simply ask our bkc for the
03:09:12 why not simply ask our bkc for the support
03:09:13 support to say that you could satisfy this recommendation within the three months uh recommended i can't answer that i must have
03:09:20 must have felt it wasn't an option but i can't i can't answer that beyond
03:09:25 sorry you must have felt that there wasn't an option why did you feel that it wasn't an option i'd like to understand that um i think we worked in an environment where budgets are constrained
03:09:36 where budgets are constrained that you know there isn't um a large pot of money that can be dipped into on a regular basis so i must have felt that that that wasn't something that was available to me but i can't really
03:09:48 available to me but i can't really tell you any more than that right sorry did did you tell the executive team
03:10:02 did did you tell the executive team at any point or the tmo board at any point or rbkc that there was no strategy or policy in place that met the tma's obligations under the rro as highlighted by salvas
03:10:15 under the rro as highlighted by salvas um i would have spoken to lornette who was the
03:10:19 was the executive director with health and safety responsibility um she would have been aware of all of the shortcomings and what i was trying what we were trying to put in place to address as many as possible um and she would have i'm assuming she
03:10:31 um and she would have i'm assuming she would have fed into the executive team now when carl stokes became the tmo's sole fire risk assessor in september 2010.
03:10:41 2010. i'm going to come on to that in a lot of detail later but do you remember sending him at that time
03:10:48 time the salvus fra management report of september 2009 i believe i would have done yes yes
03:10:56 why did you send it to him well um what i didn't do was update it which goes back to my point about time and record keeping
03:11:07 and record keeping um i wasn't clear whether salvas had shared that with him i assumed that they had but just in case for the absence of doubt
03:11:14 doubt as our fire successor he needed to be aware of
03:11:17 aware of any areas that were still areas of concern
03:11:22 concern now he he he told us that uh he didn't recall seeing it and didn't recall asking you for confirmation that the items had been remedied is that right he did not he didn't ask
03:11:33 is that right he did not he didn't ask you um
03:11:34 you um those questions i i don't recall us sitting down and going through the document
03:11:39 document in detail but we had had discussions about
03:11:42 about how we were addressing all sorts of things and how we'd extended you know some specific things like the the caretakers checklist and whatever right so i'm i'm not sure if he's right
03:11:53 right so i'm i'm not sure if he's right or if he's not sorry did you expect carl stokes to read the document you sent it yes of course he did
03:11:59 he did did you expect him to give you any advice about it or about what if things had not been done how they should be done um if if he wasn't clear about the progress of of any of the issues then i would expect
03:12:11 any of the issues then i would expect him to come back and challenge me and and
03:12:13 and ask for why they were standing and when they would be completed but i take it that you never had any specific discussion with him about that document not that i can recollect but that doesn't definitively mean it didn't happen sorry
03:12:24 definitively mean it didn't happen sorry did you ever expect carl stakes to incorporate the conclusions from that fire risk assessment management report into his own fire risk assessment work for the tmo
03:12:35 for the tmo um never really thought about it to be honest i think that the the deficiencies had been identified and it was for us to resolve them and put effective things in place as soon as possible i see so you
03:12:47 place as soon as possible i see so you didn't regard the outstanding items or any of the 19 red
03:12:51 red statutory breaches identified by salvas in that report as a matter for your fra your fire risk assessor and his fras um to some extent i think that was a
03:13:02 to some extent i think that was a question for him i mean he had the information i am confident i would have briefed him on where we were at and what we were planning to do to address the ones that were outstanding um we didn't have a conversation that he should or shouldn't
03:13:13 should or shouldn't put things in that he's a fire risk assessor it's his call what goes in the assessment did you ever tell carl stokes about the deficiencies in the tma's fire safety management system that salvas had identified
03:13:24 identified in the fra management report sorry i've already given him a copy of the report so he's got it yes um i believe i've briefed him and the progress we have made and are making in order to
03:13:36 we have made and are making in order to come to yes close it down but i beyond that i don't
03:13:43 can i then turn to uh fire safety strategy and policy from 2009 to 2017. now mr chairman i'm not going to finish this topic self-evidently by one o'clock but i can
03:13:55 self-evidently by one o'clock but i can certainly make a decent start on it in the four minutes available right we've looked at or discussed salvas's recommendations in 2009 particularly the tmo did not have a fire
03:14:08 particularly the tmo did not have a fire safety policy statement and that there were inadequate tmo policies and arrangements for fire safety at that time do you know when the tmo fire safety strategy was first created
03:14:21 fire safety strategy was first created in the in the form of a written document um no i know that we published the first version and gave the lfp a copy and i think november 13. i thought it had
03:14:35 i thought it had been in existence in one form or another for
03:14:38 for over a year beyond that so it may have been 2012. i'm not sure um
03:14:46 right let's then look at an earlier document we'll come to the 2013 the november 2013 document now probably after lunch um but uh let's start with one earlier
03:14:58 um but uh let's start with one earlier this is tmo double zero eight seven zero one seven
03:15:04 one and you can see from page one that it is a
03:15:09 a fire safety policy tmo fire safety policy
03:15:13 policy uh and if you look at page four please you can see that it's signed by robert black and it's dated december 2009. do you know the circumstances in which this document
03:15:25 circumstances in which this document came to be created no you sound surprised i haven't seen this forever i'm sorry it's i've never seen this document before i must have because it's probably me who drafted it but um well quite and i was going to ask you
03:15:36 well quite and i was going to ask you that but i haven't seen it sorry right okay well let me let's see how we go then in light of that uh did salvas or rather did the salvus fra management report
03:15:48 fra management report provide the impetus for the creation of this document do you know looking at the time frame it looks like probably a first attempt at putting something together that that met their requirements
03:16:01 that that met their requirements so yes it's probably the answer yes but are you speculating or do you do do you um could could we scroll up so i can go to page one so sorry of course
03:16:15 it is trying to make a commitment about compliance i think you're probably right but do you know or are you are you speculating like i i can
03:16:26 are you speculating like i i can um i don't know for sure um i'm sorry but it's
03:16:30 but it's so what i can say and what i do recall is we'd struggled for a long time with automatic detection quite some years before this and before the ro came in and there'd always been a reluctance to
03:16:42 and there'd always been a reluctance to install battery alarms because people are concerned about liability issues so some of this progress made at may 06 rings a bell because we we sort of i think we changed conditions of tenancy
03:16:53 think we changed conditions of tenancy so that if at that stage all we could install was a battery alarm at least we could be clear about responsibilities for testing mayo six isn't this is december yep yes no i'm just sorry at point 2.1 oh i see right i'm
03:17:05 sorry at point 2.1 oh i see right i'm just i'm just fixating on that right so there's a lot in this about afd right slightly more broad questions twofold first d did you provide a copy of the selva's
03:17:16 did you provide a copy of the selva's report
03:17:17 report to robert black uh did anybody to your knowledge i don't know you don't i don't know whether i did or lonette did i would have thought it likely that we did but i can't confirm did this document the tmo fire safety policy dated
03:17:29 the tmo fire safety policy dated december 2009 make its way back to salvos
03:17:33 salvos um don't know you don't know whether they commented on it or or had any input into it truthfully i don't i'm sorry
03:17:44 and you don't know whose decision it was to draft this document no i i think though just because of what i've just said about automatic detection i think we did have a document that had been tweaked and amended over a
03:17:57 that had been tweaked and amended over a period of years so it's possible that we've amended that to take a kind of some of the issues that are being highlighted now take it from me that this document makes no rest i'm wondering whether we
03:18:09 makes no rest i'm wondering whether we should come back to this after the adjournment because there's quite a lot of work to go through this isn't it well i wasn't proposing to because she hasn't seen it before
03:18:19 before but do you know why there's mr chairman i'm happy to come back to this after the break i think that'll be better right yes i think it's time you've had a break now
03:18:30 think it's time you've had a break now thank you that's right we're going to stop now so we can all have some lunch so we'll
03:18:35 so we'll break then we'll come back at two o'clock please and as i said to you earlier please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it
03:18:42 with it okay over the break all right thank you all right give the usher please
03:18:53 thank you turtle please
03:21:08 you