Kensington & Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Evidence - Thursday 10th June 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:25 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to continue hearing evidence from janice ray so i'm going to ask the usher to bring israel

00:00:42 please [Music]

00:00:46 [Music] good morning miss ray um how are you feeling today all right i know it's been a long

00:00:52 a long process it has um if you you know by now how we normally handle breaks and so on but if at any stage you think you'd like to have a bit of a breather will you let me know and you might find

00:01:06 let me know and you might find that if you try and keep your answers a bit shorter and your speech a bit slower you might find it a bit less tiring yes i'll take that on board

00:01:18 i'll take that on board we'll see how we get on anyway when you're ready mr mr chairman good morning thank you and good morning members of the panel

00:01:24 the panel miss ray good morning to you now we were at october 2016 last night and the subject of uh door closers and fire action notices

00:01:36 uh door closers and fire action notices particularly fire action notices can we now move please to the 17th of november 2016 and a document at tmo one double zero one seven two five four

00:01:53 this is uh the 17th of november 2016 uh notification of fire safety deficiencies for grenfell tower issued by

00:02:03 by the lf epa on that date can you please look at page six

00:02:15 on that page you can see

00:02:19 that it says in the uh under article 14 you see it says there at the time of the

00:02:30 you see it says there at the time of the audit

00:02:31 audit your procedures to be followed uh is this article 15.1 at the time of your audit your procedures to be followed in in the event of a serious of serious and imminent danger were inadequate it was found that fire

00:02:43 were inadequate it was found that fire action notices were not displayed in your common parts now the grenfell notice

00:02:49 notice it was issued a year after the adair tower fire wasn't it uh yes yeah and it was 11 months after the enforcement for a dare tower was issued yes yes yes

00:03:00 for a dare tower was issued yes yes yes and two months after you told the health and safety committee that fire action notices would be installed in all properties yes yes do you know why fire action notices had not been installed in grenfell tower by this time

00:03:12 grenfell tower by this time mid november 2016. um i believe they were on order at that time so we were awaiting delivery and then they would be installed right when did they first go on order do you remember

00:03:23 on order do you remember i don't i'm sorry was it shortly or a long time before the receipt of this deficiency notice sorry i wouldn't be able to say at this stage right now

00:03:35 right now at around about the same time do you remember a blog post um going up from a grenfell tower resident

00:03:43 resident to be precise on the 20th of november 2016.

00:03:47 2016. um in general i only received blog posts if they were sent to me directly because they were they were blocked on our system

00:03:53 system so i i'm sure right let's let's see how we go with it if you haven't seen it you haven't seen it tmo double zero eight three five six six zero

00:04:08 um this is the tmo playing with fire blog

00:04:12 blog issued by or posted by the grenfell action group on 20th of november 2016. uh and there is a photograph of a high-rise block with a fire coming out

00:04:23 high-rise block with a fire coming out of one of its windows can you see that yes uh now do you know which block that was

00:04:30 was um i don't uh it looks as if it might have been shepard's court but um what what i'm don't think it is but yes what i'm going to ask is whether this is a document you've ever seen before

00:04:40 before i think i will have seen it yes did you do you think you saw it at the time uh yes quite possibly even though it was blocked on the system um sometimes i think some of our senior managers

00:04:51 managers would send me copies if if there was something on the blog that related to health and safety or fire safety so i think i would have seen it right do you remember who it was who sent you this without your senior managers sorry no i i wouldn't um it may have

00:05:04 sorry no i i wouldn't um it may have come from peter madison i'm not sure i see can we go to page two please and look at the third paragraph on that page

00:05:12 page it says there in the penultimate paragraph under the second web reference in the aftermath of the adef tower fire the london fire brigade found

00:05:23 the london fire brigade found that the kctmo had not been looking after the safety of residents properly and issued an enforcement notice compelling them to improve the fire safety in the escape staircases and to provide self-closing devices to

00:05:34 and to provide self-closing devices to all the tower blocks front doors a further audit by the london fire brigade of the neighbouring hazelwood tower located alongside a dare tower found similar breaches of health and safety legislation and an enforcement order was also issued

00:05:46 and an enforcement order was also issued for this property forcing the tmo to address the serious concerns of the fire brigade's inspectors what is shocking he goes on to say what is shocking uh is that a decade ago a fatality

00:05:57 uh is that a decade ago a fatality occurred due to a fire at hazelwood tower

00:05:59 tower and the fire investigation team ordered that the grills on the fire escape staircase be covered over this never happened and it's believed that the uncovered grilles of adair tower

00:06:07 tower hazelwood towers twin block acted like a chimney and were responsible for the accelerated spread of the fire and smoke damage now i'll come back to the subject that is covered by that paragraph um

00:06:19 that is covered by that paragraph um perhaps a little later on but what i want to focus on with you is is this one in the last 20 years and despite the terrifying power surge incident in 2013 and recent fire at our dare tower the residents of

00:06:31 fire at our dare tower the residents of grenfell tower have received no proper fire safety instructions from the kctmo

00:06:37 kctmo residents were informed by a temporary notice stuck in the lift and one announcement in a recent regeneration newsletter that they should remain in their flats in the event of fire

00:06:46 fire there are not and have never been any instructions posted in the grenfell tower notice board or on individual floor as to how residents should act in the event of a fire

00:06:56 fire anyone who witnessed the recent tower block fire at shepherd's court in nearby shepherds bush will know that the advice to remain in our properties would have led to certain fatalities and we are calling on our landlord to

00:07:07 and we are calling on our landlord to reconsider the advice that they have so badly circulated do you remember reading that paragraph at the time yes now it's right isn't it that as at the date of this blog post there were no

00:07:19 date of this blog post there were no permanent fire action notices in grenfell tower that's right yes because they were on order as we said because they were on order and we've seen that you've had the deficiency notice three days before in that context did you think at the

00:07:31 in that context did you think at the time that ed edward de farns or the greg the gag blog's concerns about the lack of fire safety advice notices at grenfell tower were legitimate

00:07:42 were legitimate um if that was the only way that we were notifying residents of the far procedures they would they would have been legitimate but as as we discussed yesterday there were other methods of communication um in terms of handbooks and new

00:07:55 um in terms of handbooks and new residents and websites and and also what i didn't refer to yesterday was when we did um community um days that we would often invite the fire

00:08:06 that we would often invite the fire brigade to attend also so there were other methods of of cascading that information i see so taking the facts as stated in this paragraph you you dispute i think the fact well

00:08:18 you you dispute i think the fact well the stated fact that residents of grenfell tower have received no proper fire safety instructions from the tmo i would dispute that yes and you dispute it because is it that you say there were

00:08:30 it because is it that you say there were fire safety instructions proper or not contained in things like link magazine homeowner magazine and the occasional seculars yes yes i see

00:08:40 see do you also dispute the fact that

00:08:48 that the as the rest of it goes on to say

00:08:52 say there was a temporary notice stuck in the lift and an announcement in a recent regeneration newsletter that i think is is consistent with what you were saying before isn't it

00:09:03 you were saying before isn't it um we we spoke about two regeneration newsletters having fire safety information yesterday i believe um and i'm not sure we've had a discussion about signs in lifts but so i can't really

00:09:16 signs in lifts but so i can't really comment on that but that was part of the what the project team put in place i think temporarily yes and the reference there to the advice to remain in our properties

00:09:27 advice to remain in our properties uh what do you say that was contained in it was it again the link magazine homeowner magazine website yeah well every time we published that information

00:09:38 published that information that was that was the information that we were publishing is in the event of a fire

00:09:42 fire that isn't impacting on your flat this is this is the advice that um we're providing and i think you mentioned the tenant handbook yes that's right the 10 handbook and and

00:09:53 yes that's right the 10 handbook and and other other sort of circulars and um the induction they're the introductory letter

00:09:58 letter to new residents the variety of things that we discussed yesterday now leaving aside the question of the notification in respect of the content of the notice you can see that that seems to be the

00:10:09 you can see that that seems to be the thrust of

00:10:10 thrust of mis of of gags mr defon's complaint in the last sentence there which is the state put advice um were you aware at this time that

00:10:21 um were you aware at this time that uh there had been a fire at shepard's court in august 2016. yes i was you were we could see the photograph on the front were you aware that the fire had spread on the outside of that building yes yes did you make any further

00:10:33 yes yes did you make any further inquiries about the shepherd's court fire after you became aware of

00:10:38 aware of this blog um i i would have um i would have been looking for information on the cause of the fire from

00:10:46 from from when i knew about it um i'm aware that

00:10:50 that um carl stokes was doing his own kind of investigation i think he went to the block himself to to witness and to get as much information about the cause and how it spread

00:10:58 spread as possible and i would have certainly had conversations with him on that issue did you yes you did what was the upshot of those conversations um so i i believe it was a faulty

00:11:09 um so i i believe it was a faulty appliance

00:11:10 appliance that caused the fire um and i believe there were spandrel panels on the outside of the block um which had enabled the fire to to spread

00:11:21 had enabled the fire to to spread on the external face of the building now we know that you received and we'll come to it much later in your evidence you received the letter from hannah

00:11:32 you received the letter from hannah lauer of the lfb of the 6th of april 2017 which was circulated by el fipre in the light of the shepherds caught fire some seven months before eight months before

00:11:44 seven months before eight months before that

00:11:46 that but here is the blog in 2016 november 2016 only

00:11:50 2016 only three months after the fire did you have a discussion with carl stokes about the shepherds caught fire and external fire spread once you'd seen this blog or even before

00:12:01 once you'd seen this blog or even before this blog but once you've known about the

00:12:03 the shepherd's caught fire yes as i said we we would have discussed it he would have done his own investigations i would have been asking the fire brigade when we had our liaison meetings if there was any information they could

00:12:14 if there was any information they could share with us there was anything that we could learn or that we should be mindful of i would have been looking in my kind of professional publications and anywhere for for any any information

00:12:25 anywhere for for any any information that would be helpful or that would be relevant what did you find um other than what we've said about them being spanderal panels and our faulty appliance

00:12:37 at that stage i don't think there was much more in the public domain after you'd seen the the shepherd's core external fast break problem combined with stay put as the standing advice was a

00:12:49 the standing advice was a a a real concern to the grenfell tower residents at least according to the gag blog did you take any steps or any further steps to investigate

00:13:00 or any further steps to investigate whether

00:13:01 whether there was anything about the shepherd's court fire which had particular relevance to grenfell tower

00:13:09 i was constantly seeking further information but as is often the case sometimes it takes some considerable time to get the level of detail that you would want so i would have been speaking i'm

00:13:21 so i would have been speaking i'm sure we would have discussed it at liaison meetings i would have got what the fire brigade were able to tell me i would have been looking out for more information i'm not sure i i discussed it with the

00:13:32 i'm not sure i i discussed it with the brigade in relation to grenfell tower but just in terms of our stock generally

00:13:39 did you have any thoughts along the lines of

00:13:43 lines of wondering whether state the stay put advice

00:13:46 advice as the standing advice to all residents in grenfell tower was appropriate in light of first of all the external fire spread that you knew had existed or it happened at shepherd's court and secondly

00:13:57 secondly the concern about that expressed by the guy blog

00:14:01 guy blog um so my understanding that the fire was propagated at shepard's court because of the spandrel panels and my investigations internally

00:14:13 and my investigations internally seem to indicate that we didn't have any blocks with spandrel panels so um

00:14:20 i i will have looked at it more holistically but that from the information i had at the time was the root of the problem and we didn't appear to have that in terms of this stay put strategy the

00:14:32 in terms of this stay put strategy the fire risk assessments were still saying that was appropriate for harassed buildings the fire brigade was still saying that was appropriate for hybridized buildings um and so the experts

00:14:43 um and so the experts and and the fire and rescue services were saying that was appropriate so i'm i'm not sure that i i challenged it more than take their advice and speak to the assessor did anybody

00:14:54 assessor did anybody tell you carl stakes or any other fire safety professional that because it was spandrel panels at shepherd court the problem at shepherd court was limited to buildings with spandrel

00:15:06 limited to buildings with spandrel panels on them no i don't expect they did say it was limited to no so you're when you said a moment ago that as if i've understood your evidence

00:15:17 your evidence um because the fire was propagated at shepherd court because of the spandrel panels

00:15:22 panels and you discover that you didn't have any blocks with spandrel panels

00:15:28 you didn't think any more about the efficacy or safety of stay put at grenfell um we were talking specifically about

00:15:39 um we were talking specifically about the shepherd's court fire i'm advising you of what i became aware of and and what i considered with with colleagues and and with the fire successor and with the

00:15:50 and with the fire successor and with the fire brigade um that i mean we're always looking at the stock and thinking are the things we're not aware of things come to light all of the time but at that stage i'm pretty sure from the information i had

00:16:02 pretty sure from the information i had that was my focus right but i think you're i think you're saying correct me if this is wrong that nobody actually ever advised you advised you that you didn't have to worry about stay put it was a good policy at least where

00:16:14 it was a good policy at least where there were no spandrel panels on high rises

00:16:17 rises it didn't it didn't call into question i think that that's in the public domain it didn't call into question the the the advice of the purpose-built guide where there was um complementation that that stay put

00:16:29 um complementation that that stay put was the appropriate and my understanding um is that the not just in our sector but across nationally that wasn't called into question

00:16:39 question now let's move into december 2016 tmo double zero eight six five eight three [Music]

00:16:48 one

00:16:52 this is an email chain between peter madison barbara matthews and you uh which starts on the 2nd of december 2016. if we go to page 3 please we can see that uh there is um

00:17:05 we can see that uh there is um an email here um from peter madison to trudeau scriven and pete griffiths you see that yes uh and it's about the posting i've just shown you the

00:17:16 posting i've just shown you the playing with fire blog trudeau and peter attached as a recent posting on mr defon's grenfell action group website trudeau could any of the allegations be described as libelous the comments are scare-mongering at the least do we need to respond to reassure

00:17:28 least do we need to respond to reassure residents peter and janice would appreciate your advice and then you respond to that uh if we go up please to page two uh you can see that you write to barbara

00:17:40 uh you can see that you write to barbara matthews

00:17:42 matthews and say barbara i've highlighted the section in the recent blog which peter has just circulated which refers to the fire death at hazelwood if you're agreeable i'd like to forward this to the borough commander and request his view on how we can respond to this

00:17:53 to this without breaching any confidentiality issues and ideally with also getting the lfb's buy-in to our response please confirm that you're happy for me to do this and then if we scroll up to page one we can see that barbara matthews responds to you and says

00:18:05 matthews responds to you and says this uh i've spoken janice i've spoken to robert and he agrees that we should do nothing this is not the sort of website we should be responding to why did you want to get the borough commander's view on the blog post

00:18:19 commander's view on the blog post the specific um issue that i've raised there in relation to the death at hazelwood

00:18:24 hazelwood i i did not think that was true i had no knowledge of a death at hazelwood i have no knowledge of us ever been asked to put on or take off grills on staircases um and i i thought it was misinformation

00:18:37 um and i i thought it was misinformation and and therefore i think if it's misinformation then it is to some extent scare and mongering so i i was wanting to get to the bottom of that

00:18:45 of that and and the people who could probably advise me definitively with the fire brigade

00:18:50 brigade so i wanted to ask i wanted to be able to ask them to confirm whether in their um from their records whether whether there was any basis in fact and did you um i actually as i read it

00:19:02 and did you um i actually as i read it now i can't recall whether i did i think i was instructed not to right and how did you think you could get the nfb to buy into the response i i think that's probably

00:19:12 probably a kind of pathetic form of words on my i was i was

00:19:16 was i was most interested to find out whether something had happened that i was unaware of and i didn't i really didn't think it was the case can we then go to tmo10045908

00:19:30 we then go to tmo10045908 just takes one perhaps regrettably back a week or two in time to the 23rd of november 2016 email

00:19:39 email from judith blakeman to robert black about this blog post and if we go to page 3 on that you can see um

00:19:47 see um that we go to page 3 um there's an email there 23rd of november 2016. dear robert uh and she says well mr mr daffan

00:19:58 uh and she says well mr mr daffan engages in hyperbole in his grenfell action group blog it is read by most residents of the tower and the most recent article causes me concern mr daffan discussed the fire safety issue with me at a recent meeting

00:20:09 safety issue with me at a recent meeting and i did

00:20:09 and i did point out that the instructions in the event of fire had been included in one of the refurbishment newsletters however i do take his point that instructions are not permanently available on notice boards nor in a discrete letter to all

00:20:20 nor in a discrete letter to all residents and inappropriate languages where required and i'm asking whether this can be rectified and then she then says for your information is an extract

00:20:31 says for your information is an extract from the most recent blog that does cause me worry especially the allegation about hazelwood tower is this correct uh and we don't need to look at that and then she quotes um from the rest of the parts that i've

00:20:42 from the rest of the parts that i've read to you and if we go up to page two we can see that you responded to her the next day

00:20:51 yes uh but i think actually page one yes you responded to her the next day

00:21:01 and copied robert black and barbara matthews in on that dear councillor blakeman

00:21:06 blakeman and you say robert has asked me to respond to your email highlighting fire safety issues raised by mr daphon in his blog

00:21:12 blog with regard to fire procedures in grenfell tower i can confirm that these were included in the in newsletters to the block

00:21:18 the block and they are also documented on our website further we do publish regular fire safety articles in the link magazine to all residents and we write to all new tenants to outline the fire strategy for their block the procedure to follow in the event of

00:21:29 the procedure to follow in the event of a fire in their flat and also a fire elsewhere in their block and advise them of the london fire brigades lfb uh free home fire safety visit and how to access this and then you say this

00:21:40 and then you say this additionally i can advise that we are currently considering a program of installation of fire action notices similar to those now installed

00:21:47 installed at ader and hazelwood towers across all blocks

00:21:50 blocks there has been a difference of opinion amongst london fire brigade officers on the value of fitting these notices within a block with a staple fire strategy however we are keen to be proactive about this and i can confirm that we

00:22:01 about this and i can confirm that we will be proceeding with the fitting of these notices at grenfell tower it's likely that this will be completed within the next two weeks

00:22:09 weeks and then you you go on i'll read the rest to you because we've had a discussion about the topic however you say mr daphon uh appears to be challenging the stay put fire

00:22:20 put fire strategy stating that this is the wrong strategy and that we should be adopting a one-out all-out approach at grenfell tower

00:22:26 tower i would emphasize that despite extensive discussions with the lfb and other fire professionals including our fire consultant and senior consultants from specialist fire engineering companies in relation to grenfell tower at no point is the need to change the

00:22:38 at no point is the need to change the staple strategy have even been raised further the nfb operational crews continue to be very proactive about undertaking regular familiarization visits to this block and the other blocks on this estate and

00:22:50 and the other blocks on this estate and remain content with the arrangements in place

00:22:53 place finally with regard to the mention of a fatal fire at hazelwood tower 10 years ago i'm afraid i have no knowledge of this

00:22:58 this however i have requested that the lfb interrogate their records and advise on this

00:23:03 this and then at the very end you say um i can confirm you see i i this is the second line i can confirm that ed air tower was regularly audited by the lfb most recent in the month before the fire

00:23:15 most recent in the month before the fire took place and no recommendations were made

00:23:17 made in relation to the design of either staircase or the lift lobbies requirements in relation to those areas were included in the enforcement notices as it was only following the fire that the lfb recommended that changes to the building's original design were required

00:23:30 building's original design were required now there's quite a lot in that response we need to look at but let's start with the first paragraph with regard to fire procedures you refer there to a a difference of

00:23:41 you refer there to a a difference of opinion amongst nfb officers on the value of fire action notices who was it in the lfb who was against fire action notices um i think um i haven't described it very

00:23:54 i think um i haven't described it very well there wasn't a different opinion i think there was a difference of a view of actually how useful they were

00:23:59 were and i think some of the um some of the minutes we looked at yesterday from the liaison meeting indicated that rebecca said she didn't rebecca burton said that she

00:24:07 she didn't feel strongly about fire action notices so i think what i meant to say and haven't said it very clearly is there was a difference of view about how valuable they were how useful they were how

00:24:19 they were how useful they were how necessary they were right uh did you seek to clarify with rebecca burton the inconsistency perhaps perhaps that's too strong a word

00:24:31 perhaps perhaps that's too strong a word between her views and the deficiency notices that you received uh in respect of fire action notices and particular 15 1 that i showed you at the start of your evidence this morning no no we accepted that

00:24:43 morning no no we accepted that it was in the enforcement notice it was absolute requirement and i'd confirmed as we we discussed yesterday

00:24:49 yesterday that what was in the enforcement notice was um expected to be put in place at all of our blocks so we were working towards that why did you not mention here in this email that the tmo had received a deficiency notice

00:25:01 the tmo had received a deficiency notice for grenfell tower for failing to install fire action notices

00:25:05 notices i have no idea i think i probably responded

00:25:08 responded directly to the specific points that she raised

00:25:12 raised and i sorry i don't know why there was quite

00:25:15 quite as you say there's quite a lot in the email and it may just have dropped off my radar

00:25:18 my radar well how could it have dropped off your radar was it not a relevant matter to bring to her attention in the context of her inquiry about fire action notices uh perhaps it was

00:25:28 was well we'll say why didn't you deal with it why didn't you just bring it to her attention

00:25:31 attention and say at this stage i i can't give you any explanation other than it was an oversight

00:25:36 oversight well how could it have been an oversight it was it was only a week before i'm sorry i don't know what you want me to say i can only tell you that well i can only tell you that i i

00:25:47 that well i can only tell you that i i can't

00:25:48 can't recall any specific reason there was no reason why i would not have included it but i was trying to give her quite a lot of comprehensive information and it it just literally dropped off my radar

00:25:59 radar you see what i'm i'm not wanting you to give any particular answer i'm just seeking

00:26:04 seeking as far as i can to understand the thinking i mean did you get loads of deficiency notices so that this one might have slipped through the net it doesn't look like it no we didn't so the receipt of a deficiency notice from the lfb in respect of one of your

00:26:16 the lfb in respect of one of your buildings would have been quite an important

00:26:18 important communication wouldn't it it would i mean it was a non-statutory notice but we did treat them with seriousness yes and that's because it would have indicated to you that something with your health and safety arrangements for residents of your

00:26:29 arrangements for residents of your buildings had gone wrong yes it would indicate um that there were deficiencies on the day that the the the block was audited that's that's why the brigade saw it

00:26:41 why the brigade saw it yes and therefore why is that not an important matter to bring to the attention of your line manager and your chief executive well they were aware of it the deficiency notice had been circulated to

00:26:54 deficiency notice had been circulated to them

00:26:55 them um and so they were aware of the deficiency notice sorry right but you didn't think it fit to well i didn't explicitly state it in this email because they were already aware of it

00:27:07 aware of it now you say that you'll be in this email that you would be installing fire action notices

00:27:11 notices in grenfell tower and that would be completed

00:27:15 completed in the next two weeks yes i believe they were completed on the 16th so i was slightly optimistic with my time now was grenfell tower prioritized for installation of fire action notices

00:27:26 installation of fire action notices before other high-rise properties yes was that because there had been an lfb deficiency notice that we've been one of the factors we were working towards a program as we

00:27:37 were working towards a program as we discussed yesterday um but this was became a higher priority for exactly the reasons we just discussed because it's got a deficiency notice it's being identified as an issue and we want to get on and get it in

00:27:48 and we want to get on and get it in place and close it down and it's also been expressed by this blog that that's something that the residents would value so we're trying to progress that yes i see so two factors the deficiency notice

00:27:59 see so two factors the deficiency notice and the blog and the fact that we were already

00:28:03 already um working towards a program this was given priority for the factors that we discussed yeah but we were looking

00:28:10 looking elsewhere yes so you had a general program with these notices on order but as a result of the deficiency notice and the blog grenfell tower was bumped up to the top of the queue yes thank you

00:28:22 of the queue yes thank you now um

00:28:32 um let's just look then at the uh last paragraph of this they there um tower tower

00:28:44 um tower tower in the second line was regularly audited by the lfb most recent in the month before the fire took place and no recommendations were made in relation to the design of either staircase or the lift lobbies

00:28:57 of either staircase or the lift lobbies now

00:28:58 now although that statement is true as far as it goes do you agree that in fact it tends to give the impression that the lfb had identified no issues at all in the audit before the fire no i don't

00:29:11 in the audit before the fire no i don't think he gives that impression and that's certainly not what i was trying to convey and robert and barbara knew about the deficiency notice that happened just ahead of the fire so no sorry why didn't you mention or

00:29:24 no sorry why didn't you mention or perhaps remind them of the fact that the lfb had issued a deficiency notice for adair tower before the fire i i didn't think it was necessary to remind them because sorry just be clear this this

00:29:36 because sorry just be clear this this email is actually going to councillor blakeman isn't it uh yes so i think the question should be why wasn't it appropriate to tell her

00:29:47 why wasn't it appropriate to tell her indeed okay

00:29:51 i thought by that time we'd been very sort of in the wake of the fire i thought we'd been very um clear about the fact that we had a deficiency notice it had been

00:30:03 deficiency notice it had been i'm sure it had been any reports that i i had done to board and council blakeman sits on the board um and briefing notes to the council and um

00:30:15 i i thought i thought it was already completely on her radar i thought she was well aware of it so i didn't reiterate it well what gave you to think that well as as i said

00:30:25 as i said after the adair fire we were very open and honest about the fact that we'd had a deficiency notice a couple of weeks before and these were the issues which were identified um we circulated the enforcement notice

00:30:37 um we circulated the enforcement notice i believe

00:30:38 i believe to um i think to the board i it was for the company secretary to decide but um yeah sorry the enforcement notice yes are you are you sure that you and you

00:30:50 are you are you sure that you and you circulated the deficiency notices the ad air tower deficiency notices that were so

00:30:56 were so that were served before the ada tower fire right no my what i was trying to say was we were very

00:31:04 were very open and honest that we'd received a deficiency notice and i think we would have set out what was in the deficiency notice we possibly did not circulate the notice itself um but i'm confident that the reports that i

00:31:15 that the reports that i i was asked to do for board made reference to the fact that we had received one and the date well councillor blakeman's evidence was when she was asked about this was that she wasn't aware of the deficiency

00:31:26 she wasn't aware of the deficiency notice

00:31:27 notice and that was a day 135 at page 33 line 24.

00:31:33 24. are you able to explain uh if she's right about that how come i'm not um i i'm confident that we we were very um

00:31:44 i'm confident that we we were very um that that was included in lots of of information that i was providing because i was being asked to provide reports to we've never had an enforcement notice and obviously it was a serious fire so i was being asked to

00:31:55 a serious fire so i was being asked to provide updates and on a regular basis to a range of committees and a range of senior managers in in the tmo and and in the council um

00:32:08 and in the council um i can go back and double check but it was definitely my understanding that we said that the brigade had had um had audited in i think the september had provided a deficiency notice um and

00:32:20 had provided a deficiency notice um and i'm pretty sure we would have set out um the details of the deficiency notice without actually appending it just to not to make it such a long document well let me try it a different way do you accept that the statement you make there where you confirm

00:32:32 make there where you confirm that no recommendations were made in relation to the design of either the staircase or the lift lobbies was only half true because there had been deficiency notices

00:32:43 been deficiency notices served before the adair tower fire i accept not dealing with fire action notices but certainly a failure to maintain self-cleansing devices and you don't mention that um i don't

00:32:55 and you don't mention that um i don't actually accept what you're saying because no i mean i i was talking specifically in relation to the issues that have been raised in the blog

00:33:01 the blog um and and they weren't mentioned and at this stage i'm confident that we've been honest

00:33:06 honest with people about the fact that there was a deficiency notice there was no secrecy about it um so no i don't think i misled people right i was responding to what i was asking well let's

00:33:17 asking well let's let's just take a sideways look at that and look at the document see how far we go with it rbk30480

00:33:28 this is robert black's report to scrutiny on the 5th of november 2015. now that's six days after the fire yes yes uh and

00:33:40 six days after the fire yes yes uh and it's the minutes of the meeting uh we can see

00:33:44 can see uh who was present you i think were not or in attendance um do you know who drafted the minutes for this meeting um if it's scrutiny it would mean some somebody at the council in their

00:33:55 somebody at the council in their uh committee team but i don't know right

00:34:00 and if we go to page six and look at section a7 we can see there uh the text which deals with the fire at a tower on the 31st of october but if you scan

00:34:11 you scan your eyes down the three paragraphs of that or four paragraphs of that text you will see no reference at all to a prior deficiency notice served by the lfb faraday tower do you

00:34:23 faraday tower do you i don't know can you explain why that is no i wasn't at that meeting and to the best of my knowledge i don't believe i was it's live issues so i wasn't asked to do a report if there had been a report

00:34:34 a report if there had been a report i would have been confident that i would have put it in so sorry i can't comment now um can i ask you then to go back to the email we were on okay

00:34:46 that's tmo one double zero one five two one four

00:34:50 one four uh no that's the one we're on there uh thank you and and look please uh at um the part of the second paragraph second main paragraph where you say

00:35:01 paragraph where you say the end of the first line despite extensive discussions do you see that yes yes with the lfb and other fire professionals including our fire consultant and senior consultants from

00:35:10 from specialist fire engineering companies in relation to grenfell tower at no point is the need to change the staple strategy even been raised who were the senior consultants

00:35:22 who were the senior consultants from specialist fire engineering companies

00:35:26 companies that you had consulted on the subject of stay put

00:35:29 stay put at grenfell i hadn't consulted them but xover were engaged to work as part of the project team and to work on the fire strategy that was my understanding for the building

00:35:40 was my understanding for the building and would have reported into ultimately to

00:35:43 to my colleague claire williams um and it's possible that carl stokes had had some conversation with them but but i was confident that that was that reflected their view that at no point

00:35:55 reflected their view that at no point had they recommended a change in strategy why were you so confident what was the source of your information that x over had opined that there was no need to change the statement strategy

00:36:06 need to change the statement strategy well it presumably i i would have spoken to claire williams who was kind of my link back to the project team well i can see that's a reasonable presumption but did it happen did you speak to her and did she tell

00:36:18 did you speak to her and did she tell you that

00:36:20 you that yes i'm confident that she did right and what makes you so confident well there's no way that i would write this unless i'd had a discussion with somebody i had no direct relationship with exover they were appointed as part

00:36:33 with exover they were appointed as part of the project team i wasn't involved in the project team so most of my information in relation to their discussions would have me me talking to claire williams um i wouldn't have gone straight to exilva

00:36:44 i wouldn't have gone straight to exilva that wouldn't have been appropriate right i see

00:36:48 at any rate i think you can confirm that you yourself never sought the advice of any specialist fire engineer about the appropriateness of the staple strategy at grenfell tower that's right i didn't

00:36:57 i didn't can we then go to another email exchange about the same blog at tm010015225

00:37:08 about the same blog at tm010015225 this is an exchange between you and barbara matthews also in november 2016 if we scroll please down to page two you can see that you sent her an email on the 23rd of november

00:37:19 november 2016 towards the bottom of your screen there

00:37:23 there ford grenfell tower again draft response for your approval please importance hi barbara robert has asked me to respond to councillor b below as a draft can you please let me have any comments or changes so i can finalize and send

00:37:35 changes so i can finalize and send and then if we go up to the bottom of page one which then continues over to page two

00:37:40 page two barbara matthews comes back to you and says janice this is a very clear response please send it uh and if we continue on page two

00:37:48 two she goes on and she says if you have an idea of the cost to install the fire actions notices across all properties it would be good to have that as robert and i are meeting with laura tomorrow and i intend to raise the door closes with graham's costings

00:38:00 closes with graham's costings if you don't have the full cost it would be good to have the cost for purchasing and installing one and the cost for grenfell if you have it now laura is a reference i'm assuming is this right to laura johnson yes

00:38:11 johnson yes yes

00:38:15 did the costs of fire safety measures have to be approved by laura johnson personally um not necessarily it depends what they are

00:38:24 are right well what was the procedure for seeking approval for costs for these costs the cost of installing the fire action notices um

00:38:36 actually probably barbara's better to answer this than me i would have referred

00:38:40 referred i would have escalated to barbara um and as obviously our finance director she would have known what we could have made from our existing budgets and she would be clear

00:38:48 be clear what needed to be escalated right um i i imagine that in some instances when it's new work which wasn't budgeted before um then it gets escalated but actually i i don't know the detail it's beyond

00:39:00 i don't know the detail it's beyond my no i understand that um was funding for these fire safety measures paid for or to be paid for out of tmo's budget or was it paid for outside of that budget

00:39:11 that budget i don't know the answer to that either i mean most of the discussion was about self-closures and not fire action notices but it was an additional um it was an additional cost so i i'm not sure what they discussed or what

00:39:23 not sure what they discussed or what they agreed apologies

00:39:26 right uh uh very well and at page one we can see your response uh you had a you say you you have a quote for the printing of the notices

00:39:37 quote for the printing of the notices and the quantities that haven't been able to cost the installation to date i have used sheamus for installing notices so this is 24th of november when you said you had them on order

00:39:48 said you had them on order presumably the notices were on order but you still hadn't costed the installation was that because at this stage 24th of november you hadn't actually organized the installation yet even at grenfell

00:39:59 installation yet even at grenfell well grainful we were going to do it we we had the advantage of having a handyman

00:40:03 handyman at ground floor where we don't have in any other estate so we knew that we had a resource that we could call upon and eventually we that's what we we did elsewhere we used

00:40:15 that's what we we did elsewhere we used our estate services assistance and whoever else was available to do the installation to do it rapidly so it wasn't costed in the end we did it with existing resources

00:40:26 with existing resources i see i want to turn to a completely different subject now which is flat entrance doors and start within that topic with the subtopic

00:40:34 subtopic which is the background to the program now do you agree that the flat entrance door replacement program

00:40:41 program started in may 2011. believe so yes and that was about the replacement of flat entrance doors in tmo properties including grenfell tower

00:40:52 including grenfell tower it was and the doors were going to be made by and sold by mance mastador uh yeah that that was at the end of the procurement there were the successful contractors yes now let's look at the fra for

00:41:05 yes now let's look at the fra for grenfell tower of the 30th of september 2009

00:41:08 2009 cst 403128 please and i'd like to go straight into that at page 15.

00:41:18 this is part of the action plan 30th of may of september 20 uh 2009 and if you look at uh the last uh row at the bottom of your

00:41:29 uh the last uh row at the bottom of your screen

00:41:30 screen 3.4 uh it says uh priority rating three confirmations should be sought that each dwelling door is to fr30 standard and is provided with

00:41:42 is to fr30 standard and is provided with a self-glazing device and that's given an amber risk level you see that yes and if you go to page 16 it goes on

00:41:53 consideration should be given when not fitted to the installation of intumescent strips and cold smoke seals to each tenant flat access door by a competent contractor who is fully familiar with bs 476 and

00:42:06 who is fully familiar with bs 476 and appropriate industry standards it is recommended that a system of formal checks on fire tenant on tenant fire doors and all other fire compartmentation doors is introduced and implemented by the tmo

00:42:17 is introduced and implemented by the tmo to ensure fire compartments remain fit for purpose nb this should extend to all fire doors within the building now as i've just shown you um this had an amber rating

00:42:28 an amber rating apart from the last one there which was red but on the amber that means that it had to be that was best practice wasn't it on this document and i've shown you the number three priority rating if we get

00:42:40 number three priority rating if we get back perhaps to the foot of 15 we'll see it that told you that the action had to be taken within one month yes yes was this a typical comment uh made

00:42:52 was this a typical comment uh made within

00:42:53 within uh was it was this a typical comment made relating to flat entrance doors in fras in 2009 across the board um it was being made in relation to quite a few which which is why

00:43:04 quite a few which which is why um i identified a trend and escalated it and said and i think escalated it to robert saying this is something that we're being requested

00:43:12 requested to do yes thank you now if we go back to page 16 i've read this to you already there's the recommendation of the formal the system of formal checks was that recommendation to commence a system of

00:43:24 recommendation to commence a system of formal checks on tenant fire doors to ensure fire compartments remain fit for purpose common across fire risk assessments completed by salvas yeah i believe so yes do you recall that

00:43:36 yeah i believe so yes do you recall that you also included the recommendation for a program of inspections in your annual health and safety report uh i don't remember but yes if it's there it's there well let's just

00:43:47 there it's there well let's just take a quick look at one um this is the annual health and safety report for 2010 2011 dated may 2011 and that is at tm00854890

00:43:58 tm00854890 let's go straight in at page seven paragraph 8.1.8 one recommendation that was made in the high-risk fra program

00:44:09 high-risk fra program high-risk fra action plans in relation to the majority of the enclosed blocks was

00:44:13 was requirement to instigate a program of inspections etc so you you had clearly lifted it i think from the salvus the stokes salvas fra for for

00:44:25 the stokes salvas fra for for grenfell or others and and put it in here yes yes yes so can we take it therefore that the tmo

00:44:31 tmo executive and the board were aware of the recommendation to instigate an inspection program at least from may 2011 because you'd reported on it yeah i

00:44:42 because you'd reported on it yeah i believe sir yes now can we go to your first statement please tmo 50890 page 3 paragraph 13.

00:44:59 this is under the heading subsequent modifications prior to the 2012-2016 refurbishment under paragraph 13 you say this

00:45:09 this the tmo assigned a project manager to oversee this program of works abigail acosta

00:45:14 acosta who worked in the asset investment and engineering department while i was involved in the program to the extent that i was consulted on matters arising relating to health and safety

00:45:22 safety i was not responsible for overseeing the procurement of the contractor or for overseeing the works for this reason my knowledge of the program is limited to the matters discussed below on on which health and safety matters

00:45:33 on on which health and safety matters were you consulted in respect of this program

00:45:39 um

00:45:42 so sorry i know this is going to be a long answer um so i was the person who identified that these that this issue was coming up in relation to various properties internal discussions

00:45:54 various properties internal discussions led to us

00:45:54 led to us um having stock condition uh surveyors who were able to go and actually inspect doors based on the information that they provided we then identified

00:46:05 provided we then identified a program of work that was required um i think

00:46:09 think that i would have prioritized that program

00:46:13 program in terms of risk although actually i think

00:46:16 think it it they managed to turn it around quite quickly i would have been consulted about the standard of the door

00:46:26 and i would have been invited to some of the progress meetings i i recall though we had an issue um with some uh people particu came to light in the

00:46:37 uh people particu came to light in the scythe of the borough that some people were struggling with the weight of the closer

00:46:40 closer so i was involved in

00:46:44 suggesting and i think actually inspecting an assisted closer that we had installed in various locations and just generally keeping a watch in

00:46:55 and just generally keeping a watch in brief on progress and then advising the fire risk assessor where we had done these material changes as these blocks would need their fire risk assessment replaced reviewed redone now were you involved in

00:47:08 reviewed redone now were you involved in the decision to appoint abigail acosta as the program's project manager no you won't now if you go to your third statement please tmo-00847305

00:47:20 statement please tmo-00847305 this is your third statement let's look at page two paragraph six um you say there the fire door replacement project

00:47:32 there the fire door replacement project was overseen the the tma's asset investment and engineering team and then you go on to say in the third line at the end i was involved to the

00:47:44 line at the end i was involved to the extent that i acted as a liaison between the project team and carl stokes the tmos fire risk assessor what do you mean by liaison um i probably don't actually mean liaison i mean that i would have

00:47:56 mean that i would have um channeled information about the the doors themselves and the standards they reached to carl uh to get a view on and um and then also i would have asked him

00:48:11 um and then also i would have asked him to attend i know i did ask him to attend uh the pilot door installation so he could witness that for himself um i think we asked him to comment on the lhc's report

00:48:22 the lhc's report um whenever they were attending site uh identify any improvements and then i would have fed that back to the project manager um i think ultimately he liaised directly with abby

00:48:33 directly with abby um about specifics of the the case so yeah it was really confined to that

00:48:40 i see did he provide advice to you on the criteria for prioritizing the fitting of new flat entrance doors i think he probably did and on the standards required for those doors

00:48:52 standards required for those doors yeah yeah he would have had some input into that yep going back to your first statement if we can please page four paragraph 20 you say uh there

00:49:03 you say uh there that uh after abigail acosta was appointed to take over the program which is something you refer to at the end of paragraph 19 you say you continued to attend progress meetings with the lhc you see

00:49:15 progress meetings with the lhc you see that yes

00:49:16 that yes why did you continue to attend progress meetings um because i wanted to know what progress they were making it was really crucial that we drove this forward swiftly and i wanted to know if there were any

00:49:27 were any issues or any holdups or yeah really just to monitor the progress of the program and identify any any problems so so it's more than just liaison it's

00:49:38 liaison it's actually overseeing the project well no i don't think i was overseeing the project i was i was trying to make sure that that it was moving along and i could escalate it in terms so so abby's part of asset

00:49:49 in terms so so abby's part of asset investment and that directorate if i'm attending these these um meetings and i think there are problems then i think it's appropriate that i tell my boss who's the executive director with

00:50:00 boss who's the executive director with health and safety agreement so that she's aware so rather than overseeing monitoring yeah perhaps all right um did you report on the program's progress to anthony parks before july 15. sorry it would have been

00:50:11 before july 15. sorry it would have been lorna pemberton at that time and i i'm pretty sure i would have kept her in informed of progress yes i see did you report uh to the health and safety executive team

00:50:22 team um well lawneck was part of the health and safety oh i see did you report to the tmo board uh no i think reports to board would have been done by

00:50:33 reports to board would have been done by by abby who was the obviously was the project manager did you see her reports um i may have done right do you remember whether either uh lornette pemberton

00:50:45 uh lornette pemberton or the tmo board ever queried anything in respect of the the specifications of the doors uh not to my knowledge so they relied on what you and abby

00:50:58 so they relied on what you and abby acosta were telling them um yes and and the technical director at the time who i think was an interim chat called simonthrop he probably

00:51:09 chat called simonthrop he probably presented

00:51:10 presented the the um reports and he i recall had experience of carrying out the same kind of program using the lhc at another authority so um

00:51:21 using the lhc at another authority so um i think they probably relied on his experience as well now let's look at the specification next uh and the appointment of masterdoor um sticking with your first witness statement as we've gone on the screen

00:51:33 statement as we've gone on the screen can we flip down to paragraph or over to a paragraph 22 so the very foot of the page um very full of page four and you see you say that i've also been shown a brief

00:51:44 brief specification price and pricing document sent by abigail acosta to john tapscott of mance mastador limited on 5th january 2011 and you exhibit it let's look at the

00:51:56 and you exhibit it let's look at the exhibit tmo10049975

00:52:14 uh is that the document you're referring to here as jw1 um yes must be if we can go uh to well i think the key part of it is

00:52:26 uh to well i think the key part of it is actually at page 45. i'm showing you page one but in fact i think we probably want page 45 pricing document fixed rate for individual fire door replacement and

00:52:38 individual fire door replacement and associated works and if we scroll down to 46 and 47 you can see i think the rest of it is that's the document is it the the brief specification and pricing

00:52:50 the brief specification and pricing document believe so yes yes were you involved in drafting any part of

00:52:55 part of this brief no no do you know who was i don't know do you know who it was who was

00:53:04 was responsible for ensuring that the brief met industry standards no somebody within the technical division who were managing the project i presume

00:53:16 right you don't know who that was no sorry i don't now you say and you said this a little bit earlier that you would have been consulted about the standard of the doors

00:53:26 doors why were you particularly consulted on the standard of the doors um well they might have run it past me and said

00:53:34 and said you know sort confirmation my understanding was we wanted ft-30s doors which had um cold smoke sales intermediate strokes and self-closers and that's all i would

00:53:45 and self-closers and that's all i would have been able to provide them with is just a high level and any door furniture would have to meet the appropriate standards etc just exploring that a bit further where did that understanding come from

00:53:56 where did that understanding come from well that was my understanding of what was required on means of escape front entrance doors indeed and what was the source of that understanding um at that time i can't recall to be

00:54:07 um at that time i can't recall to be honest

00:54:07 honest um i i don't know where i got it from um it's what i've always understood but i as i sit here i can't think where which document sorry would it be approved document b

00:54:19 approved document b probably probably is were you familiar with the proof document b um yeah i mean i knew of it and i i consulted it sometimes but i would it wasn't something that i find particularly accessible so i would have asked for advice

00:54:30 asked for advice usually well you shown this document the brief specification pricing document at the time january 2011. um i i honestly don't recall

00:54:44 right you weren't i think able to give me a name of the person who was involved might should have been somebody called graham sidaway um he was a tmo asset strategy manager

00:54:55 um he was a tmo asset strategy manager i'm not sure he uh i think he was i i don't know i don't know i'm speculating sorry you don't remember having any discussions with mr sidoway about this document um i i know he was involved in

00:55:06 um i i know he was involved in instructing rand the stock um condition surveyors who went and did the checks but i don't know if his remate extended to this i'm sorry right i see were you aware that although the london housing consortium at lhc

00:55:18 the london housing consortium at lhc were involved it was for the tmo to specify and set the standards required for the flat entrance doors to be installed as part of this replacement program

00:55:25 program um i'm not sure if i was aware but that doesn't seem unreasonable right did you ever discuss with abigail acosta specifically the fire performance requirement for the flat entrance doors before the issue of the tender

00:55:40 before the issue of the tender i don't remember sorry do you know if anybody sought carl stokes's advice about the standards required for the flat entrance doors before the tender

00:55:51 flat entrance doors before the tender was issued i i would have thought that they did but i

00:55:56 i i don't remember i i really don't sorry it's right um let's look at the specification um can we go to the third your third statement please

00:56:08 tm00847305 page four paragraph 16. uh and uh if you if you look

00:56:19 uh and uh if you if you look there you say it was always my understanding that the new replacement door sets installed by mance masterdoor were required to be self-closing fd30

00:56:30 self-closing fd30 doors fitted with intumescent strips and cold smoke seals and were therefore fully compliant i do not believe there was any there was ever any debate about whether the doors required self-closing devices while i was not the project manager i'm

00:56:42 while i was not the project manager i'm confident that mance mastador and lhc would always have been expected to provide certification to the tmo how did you initially obtain the knowledge about what was required for compliant flat entrance stores

00:56:54 compliant flat entrance stores you mentioned adb earlier on and was there anything else any other guidance document you looked at i would have looked at them all but i can't remember which one i i took my information from right i mean i would

00:57:05 information from right i mean i would have looked at the chorus and the sleeping guide and and everything that was available right um but i just sorry it's a long time ago i can't right you said earlier in your oral evidence just this morning

00:57:17 in your oral evidence just this morning um that

00:57:18 um that you knew that they should be fd 30s that was at the raw transcript page 38 uh line 12 with cold smoke seals

00:57:31 uh line 12 with cold smoke seals interesting strips and self-closers but here you're referring to fd30 doors with intumescent strips and cold smoke seals can you account for that difference well i don't i don't see it

00:57:43 difference well i don't i don't see it as a difference it's ft 30 as opposed to ft60 or fd120 that's that's the fire ratedness um the the 30 minutes um and the the fact that i'm saying they

00:57:54 um and the the fact that i'm saying they have to have injuries and strips called smoke seals and be self-closing makes them an fd30s i've just i've just called it fd30 in terms of 30 and not an fd60 i just just

00:58:06 30 and not an fd60 i just just differentiated that's all right why didn't you say fd30s there well i could have done and then i could have not provided the other bit i think i thought it would be more helpful to outline the other factors

00:58:17 outline the other factors but um did you actually think about that precise point when you were writing this part of your third statement i thought it was important to be explicit yes now uh you

00:58:30 now uh you uh say

00:58:33 uh can we well did you could you discuss that standard first of all did you discuss that standard with anybody from salvos

00:58:40 salvos once they'd raised the issue in their fire risk assessments in 2009 to 2010 i think it's quite likely i did

00:58:49 did but but at this stage i can't really recall i mean it may be in some of the minutes i think it's it's very likely i did because they were questioning the standard of the door and i would have needed to know what standard they

00:59:00 have needed to know what standard they required us to meet yes can we go back a page in this your third witness statement please to page three paragraph 12. you say there i recall that carl produced a document for the tmo entitled

00:59:13 produced a document for the tmo entitled criteria for prioritizing the fitting of new entrant stores to flats jw3 you see that criteria yes uh did you instruct carl stakes to draft

00:59:23 draft those criteria

00:59:27 um i don't i don't know whether i did for sure i think sorry i don't think i can give you a definite answer because i i don't recall right uh

00:59:42 right uh well we'll come we'll come to the document

00:59:45 document in a moment and can we first look please at what carl stokes says in his second witness statement this is at cst3030186 page 15 paragraph 58.

01:00:03 and if you look at the uh

01:00:08 look at the first line he says along with my letter of 24th june 2011 i did author the document titled criteria for prioritizing the fitting of new entrance doors to flats at the request of miss ray so he he says

01:00:21 at the request of miss ray so he he says you did ask him and it's quite possible that i did i just can't remember he says it then i believe him right so you don't challenge that no now he says that he did so to assist

01:00:34 he says that he did so to assist as you can see to assist the kctma navigate its way through the door replacement process do you agree with that um i think i think

01:00:44 think we'd identified the information that came back from rand um showed that we needed a program of i think ultimately it was about 1200 doors which which across quite a number of blocks so we

01:00:55 across quite a number of blocks so we were trying to um prioritize those in terms of installation and i i must have asked him to give me a steer on how he thought we should we should progress them just to be clear rand had done the stock

01:01:06 just to be clear rand had done the stock survey yes yeah um was this document to assist you personally in navigating your way through the door replacement process or was it for somebody else's benefit um i'm

01:01:17 i'm thinking that it was to give um a steer to the project manager to say actually

01:01:24 actually you might want to consider these priorities you might want to consider this as the program right the reason i ask this is it looks a little bit more than simply a liaison role that you are occupying in relation

01:01:35 role that you are occupying in relation to the

01:01:36 to the flat entrance door replacement program no i mean i was probably making recommendations but it wasn't my call right can we take it that you asked him

01:01:47 right can we take it that you asked him to draft these criteria so that you could be satisfied that the doors met the requisite fire safety standards

01:01:54 standards um i i don't think that was the the criteria for prioritizing the 15th new doors it was my understanding that what he had provided unless you tell me differently

01:02:06 unless you tell me differently was um uh

01:02:09 was um uh doors in this kind of location potentially are high risks you know to go through the blocks identify whether we do high risk a high rise first or whether we do specialized housing or

01:02:20 specialized housing or to look at the different kinds of doors in different kinds of locations and prioritize those so that we could put that into a program that was my that's my understanding did you have a discussion with carl stokes

01:02:31 discussion with carl stokes about the criteria that he produced i imagine i did but i no recollection of it right let's look at it uh it's cst402660

01:02:55 uh and uh that's the first page it's a letter date of the 10th of november 2010 uh subject the replacement of fire doors to some entrance doors of residential flats

01:03:04 flats criteria for prioritizing the fitting of new entrance doors to flats can you see that

01:03:08 that yes and then if we go a little bit lower down uh

01:03:11 down uh on the page eight blocks where refurbishment of the common landings and staircases is overdue you see that and then if you go over

01:03:20 over under options you can see it says

01:03:29 number one you can see it on your screen replace the old door and frame the door set with new 30 minute fire rated door set incorporating intumescent strips and cold snake seals fd30s with a self-closing device

01:03:43 fd30s with a self-closing device and then if we go to page two replace the old door this is under item two replace the old door with new 30 minute fire rated door inserted in the old frames incorporating into mess

01:03:54 the old frames incorporating into mess and strips and cold smoke seals in the new door

01:03:57 new door fd30s with a self-closing device you see that yeah and then number three fit into your mess and strips if not fitted and cold smoke seals in the existing door and a self-closing device to the door

01:04:11 and a self-closing device to the door was it your understanding after looking at this letter that the doors that were that were to be replaced needed to meet the standard of an fd30s door yes yes and did you understand what the s

01:04:24 yes and did you understand what the s signified i did yes what was that cold smoke sales 30 minute fire rated door with intumescent strips and cold smoke seals yes to give it its full description yes which is what i tried to reflect in

01:04:35 yes which is what i tried to reflect in my statement so so i understand that so so yes i see so fd30 plus the other

01:04:46 yes i see so fd30 plus the other elements equals fd30s indeed yes were you aware that the suffix s meant that a door had been tested for cold smoke leakage

01:04:57 had been tested for cold smoke leakage yes yes

01:05:01 yes yes did you know what the s signified before you received this letter from carl stokes or as a result of it i've known before you'd known before yeah did

01:05:13 you'd known before yeah did carl stakes discuss with you the need for doors to be tested for cold smoke leakage

01:05:18 leakage as a separate test from the test for fire resistance i don't recall having that conversation but

01:05:26 but i i can't say had you discussed that topic with anyone from salvas consulting before november 2010 uh again i

01:05:37 2010 uh again i i i can't say when carl stokes sent you this document what did you do with it or what did you do with the information that i've just shown you under the three options there um to be honest i think i probably focused

01:05:49 to be honest i think i probably focused more on the um the first page um the priorities yes so obviously where we've got blocks with a single means of escape

01:06:00 means of escape you know it helped that was to feed into the program so that the program reflected

01:06:06 reflected right the the highest risk at the beginning of the program did you have any discussions with either abigail acosta or simon thropp that the standard required for flat entrance doors

01:06:18 required for flat entrance doors was fd 30s i'm sure i would have did you pass this letter to them and highlight uh those three options the foot of page one at the top of page two that i've read to you

01:06:30 two that i've read to you i think it's very likely that i did right

01:06:33 right now we then if we then move to the next year march 2010 cst 3-0 is one three zero seven four

01:06:46 zero seven four we can see that you had a meeting with simon throp and carl stokes

01:06:51 on the 10th of march 2011 and the reason i suggest that to you is because of what we see on the screen here is a letter dated the 7th of march from carl stokes to you updated after

01:07:02 from carl stokes to you updated after meeting with simon throp on thursday 10th of march 2011.

01:07:08 do you recall that meeting not especially now uh if we go um down to page two at the bottom of the

01:07:19 down to page two at the bottom of the page

01:07:19 page please bottom of the letter you can see uh there after his signature updated information after 10th mark 10th march meeting with

01:07:30 march meeting with jay ray and s throp simon confirmed that the replacement doors would have self closes and cold smoke seals fitted to them

01:07:38 to them also the letterboxes would be fire rated it was also agreed that i would be present when the first doors are installed

01:07:43 installed and abigail accosted the project manager will arrange the dates and times etc why were you at that meeting was it because you were there in your monitoring role

01:07:54 there in your monitoring role yeah described it earlier yeah i believe so and why was carl stokes present at that meeting um i'm presuming that simon thro asked to meet him but i i can't say at

01:08:07 asked to meet him but i i can't say at this stage right now carl stakes said in his evidence and his day 138 page 39 lines one to four that he he thought he was there to look at the criteria of the doors

01:08:19 at the criteria of the doors do you agree um sorry the the document with his criteria document did it come before or after this does

01:08:27 this does with that does that make sense his criteria document was from november right okay his evidence uh was that he thought he was there in order to discuss the criteria the fire safety

01:08:39 discuss the criteria the fire safety criteria of the doors right the specification of the door yes yeah um yes well that that would make sense

01:08:44 sense yes did he mention at that stage the requirement for a fire door to undergo testing for cold smoke leakage separate from a test for fire resistance

01:08:55 separate from a test for fire resistance i honestly couldn't say right now uh if we go back up to page one of this letter please

01:09:04 look at paragraph number one yeah it says there can it please be confirmed that the doors are to be fitted under the contract that are the 30-minute fire

01:09:15 the contract that are the 30-minute fire doors fd30 version and could the company forward all the relevant documentation to confirm this you see that and then

01:09:28 you um if you go on um if if you look at the third paragraph from the bottom that that follows on from a reference uh to mance mastador saying on its

01:09:39 uh to mance mastador saying on its website

01:09:40 website that its stores meet the requirement of part m of the building regulations and particularly had been tested to ps476 part 22. did you ever ask mance master door for a

01:09:51 did you ever ask mance master door for a confirmation and certification i don't know that i did i naturally assumed that the project manager would have done

01:09:58 have done you naturally assumed that did she i don't know well she did and i don't know whether i asked her but that's the role of the project manager is to make sure that the specification and all the documentation is in place right

01:10:10 documentation is in place right did you think that mr stokes's advice in paragraph one there that the doors should be confirmed to fd 30 doors was at odds with the letter that he'd sent you on the 10th of november

01:10:21 november 2011 2010 setting out the requirements for doors to be fd30s i didn't because i would have probably

01:10:32 i didn't because i would have probably read it in the context of everything else he said in a letter where he's obviously raising anxiety that there's no mention of um the other the other aspects in terms of

01:10:42 of yes indeed did you note that there was now no reference to the need for the doors to have cold smoke seals

01:10:51 sorry sorry when would when you say no reference do you mean in his point one yes um well as i say i'd have read the context of the the letter he's identifying issues

01:11:03 identifying issues that would be going back to simon throp and abby acosta to address um so i assumed that any of his concerns were

01:11:14 being raised with them and being addressed by them

01:11:19 well yes but did you not notice that there was a degree of inconsistency between what mr stokes was telling you in the november 2010 letter

01:11:30 2010 letter and this march letter about the uh fire safety standards for these doors um can i see the second page again please yes of course

01:11:42 page two please

01:11:52 um i i don't think i would have picked up on there being a discrepancy because he's mentioning he's still reiterating the need for them to have him tumescent

01:12:04 to have him tumescent strips and and closers and he's he's kind of raising his anxiety that that's not necessarily clear from the website or that's my interpretation this isn't the most crystal clear

01:12:15 this isn't the most crystal clear document is it no no and did you not then go back to him and ask him for very clear specification or advice on what specification was required for

01:12:26 on what specification was required for these stores so that um simon throp and abigail acosta could could go back to mance master door and say are your doors fd30s i don't know whether i did or i

01:12:39 fd30s i don't know whether i did or i didn't

01:12:39 didn't but he was very clear in his in his criteria initially and that was circulated and that's what they should have been working to now um while we're on this page uh

01:12:51 now um while we're on this page uh he he does go on to ask as you can see from item two for confirmation that the doors will meet all the requirements of the current building regulations and hm government fire safety risk assessment guide for sleeping

01:13:02 assessment guide for sleeping accommodation this includes hinges letterbox called letter plates and any securing or locking mechanisms and also in the middle of the page towards the bottom of your screen there

01:13:15 towards the bottom of your screen there he says he has attached the relevant pages from approved document b fire safety volume 2 for your information section 5 general provisions and appendix b fire doors and i draw your attention to items 5.2

01:13:27 items 5.2 5.5 5.6 and 5.11 of section 5 general provisions also to item 2

01:13:33 item 2 of appendix b and item 2a of table b1 do you remember whether you looked at that guidance to which you had drawn your attention i don't recall sorry right let's look at

01:13:45 i don't recall sorry right let's look at cst

01:13:46 cst 706. this is a document which mr stokes told us he thought was the document that he had attached that's day 138 page 41 at line

01:13:59 that's day 138 page 41 at line 25 and you can see at the top he says good morning after the meeting yesterday here

01:14:04 here is the relevant in here is relevant information regarding flat entrance doors

01:14:07 doors i have highlighted the two parts in green carl do you think you read this yeah i would have read everything he sent me right if we turn to the next page please page two you can see

01:14:19 page two you can see that he's marked in green paragraph two there uh and if you turn to page three in this uh exhibit under table b fire doors section two

01:14:32 b fire doors section two a he's marked that in green as well yes did you

01:14:35 did you look at that when he sent this to you do you think yes

01:14:39 did you read anything that wasn't marked in green

01:14:43 in green uh not in detail no probably not right did you if you go back to page two did you look for example at paragraph one on the top of the

01:14:55 at paragraph one on the top of the left-hand column uh all fire doors should have the appropriate performance given in table b1

01:15:01 b1 and then there's the data set out there

01:15:06 did you did you see that did you read it i i really i really don't remember if i read it i would have passed it to the to the technical people who were specifying and procuring the works and i

01:15:18 specifying and procuring the works and i would

01:15:19 would expect them to incorporate anything that he's highlighting we've asked him for his view he's provided it now they need to incorporate it

01:15:27 it i i suspect that i did but um it depends what other mayhem was happening on that day i suspect did you understand that the smoke test was a separate test from from a fire resistant test

01:15:38 resistant test resistance test um i i i can't say whether i understood that then

01:15:45 that then obviously the world knows differently now but i so i can't really tell you whether i did know that then right it's possible that i did but i can't confirm it right now

01:15:56 if we uh

01:16:03 look at paragraph two on that page which he he's highlighted in green it says all fire doors should be fitted with a self-closing device except for fire doors to cupboards and to service ducts which are normally kept locked shut and fire doors within

01:16:15 kept locked shut and fire doors within flat self-closing devices are still necessary on flat entrance doors you see that

01:16:19 that yeah and then over on page three he's marked paragraph two a and table b1 as i've shown you that shows and tells you in clear terms doesn't it that the minimum fire resistance of a door if it separates a

01:16:31 resistance of a door if it separates a flat from a space in common use is fd30s isn't it yes yes so do you agree that you were

01:16:38 you were made aware that the requirements for flat entrance doors were fd30s for new flight engine stores yes yes now given that he had asked mans master door to confirmed that the doors were fd 30 in the part of the letter i showed

01:16:50 30 in the part of the letter i showed you

01:16:51 you um i think you accept that there was some degree of confusion in his correspondence yes um if you if you consider all of the correspondence i think it

01:17:02 correspondence i think it it's clear but in the point that you've highlighted to me it does say fd30. did you follow up with him and ask him why his letter had said fd30 but the technical data he'd marked up for your attention said fd30s

01:17:14 for your attention said fd30s no because it was my understanding that we needed ft30s as i've said before

01:17:21 and he has appended this and it's gone to the technical people so i don't think it's

01:17:27 it's his wording isn't fabulous but i don't think it's that ambiguous i think it's still clear and after you received this data did you send it to abigail acosta and or simon throp or discuss it with

01:17:40 and or simon throp or discuss it with them

01:17:40 them i would have sent it to simon throw up i'm sure but without further discussion i i can't say at this stage maybe i did maybe i didn't i don't know

01:17:51 i did maybe i didn't i don't know mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is mr miller i think it's time we had a break don't just ray we'll stop now we'll resume please at 25 to 12. and again please

01:18:02 please at 25 to 12. and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while i write them thank you all right thank you very much

01:18:17 thank you 25 to 12.

01:36:01 would you ask australia to come back in

01:36:08 please

01:36:12 [Music]

01:36:17 all right that's very ready to carry on yes well done thank you yes ms ray in general terms can you help me whose

01:36:24 whose job was it within the tmo to ensure that the contract with masterdoor specified the correct and compliant specification for flat entrance doors

01:36:36 specification for flat entrance doors um i would have thought that was with the technical division who were responsible for the contract they can seek advice but in terms of ensuring that the contract says the right thing that i believe sits with

01:36:48 right thing that i believe sits with them

01:36:49 them and to the best of your knowledge given your involvement as you've explained it with this pro this project who were the people in the technical team well ultimately simon thrott was the

01:37:00 well ultimately simon thrott was the interim director at that stage um and abby acosta he appointed i think abby acosta as the as a project manager there may have been other people involved i can't recall but certainly those two so if

01:37:12 those two so if say abby acosta would have been at least in part responsible for specifying the correct specification for the flat entrance doors i believe so yes yes thank you now i'm going to continue

01:37:24 i'm going to continue with the topic um but the emphasis may change slightly um it looks from the letter that we've been looking at that it was agreed at this meeting that carl stokes would attend

01:37:35 carl stokes would attend the installation of the first door yes yes why was that why was it necessary that he should um i don't know if it was necessary but uh he he was going to be going back to

01:37:48 uh he he was going to be going back to properties where these doors had been installed

01:37:51 installed and he was then going to be asking me lots of questions about what we'd installed and what standards they met um so it seemed sensible for him to be present when the to actually witness an installation so he could see

01:38:02 he could see whether it was being done to the standard that he felt was appropriate to meet the required fire ratedness now can we go to your third statement please

01:38:13 tm0847305 again and now look at page 3 paragraph 12

01:38:19 12 and again to ask you to look at the um and the end of it at the end of the third line you say then on on 30th april 2011

01:38:30 you say then on on 30th april 2011 carl stokes wrote to me summarizing the relevant items of the draft fire safety and purpose-built blocks of flats guide which could affect the door replacement program let's look at that letter it is at

01:38:42 let's look at that letter it is at tm00 847 318.

01:38:50 as you can see it's dated 30th of april 2010

01:38:55 2010 i think that's an error yeah for 2011 isn't it

01:38:58 isn't it yes it is yes uh and you've said say paragraph 12 of your third statement now did you ask him to provide

01:39:06 provide you with the advice contained in this letter or did he volunteer it i i think he probably volunteered it right

01:39:13 right um looking at well in what way did you use the advice that he provided to you in this letter do you remember not especially no

01:39:24 not especially no right uh looking at the advice at page one if we look at the last paragraph um you see he's uh picking up paragraph 68.2

01:39:33 68.2 uh of the lga guide or perhaps it's not the lga guide he's picking up 68 2 of what i think is a draft of the lga

01:39:44 of what i think is a draft of the lga guide as of april 2011 and you can see that from the heading of the letter yes yes and it says as flat entrance doors are required to be self-closing

01:39:56 are required to be self-closing there is a risk that any self-locking security devices fitted to the doors could accidentally lock residents outside of their own flats now he then goes on to explain the practical uh experiences of living

01:40:10 the practical uh experiences of living with a self-closer but he doesn't provide any further more detailed guidance about what is required by way of self-closures does he no did you ask for any further guidance

01:40:22 did you ask for any further guidance on that i don't recall asking for further guidance did you need any further guidance or did you already know that flat entrance stores had to be self-closing well yes of course right

01:40:35 well yes of course right then if we continue he goes on to say as i've said that there's a risk that self-locking security devices fitted to doors it has to accidentally lock a residence out of their own flats and

01:40:48 a residence out of their own flats and then he goes on as well as being a general nuisance for residents who may leave their keys inside the flat there's also a risk during a fire if residents leave their flat and dependent family members remain inside the flat the danger in these circumstances is

01:41:00 the danger in these circumstances is that residents may resort to removing or disconnecting the self-closing device uh on that last sentence there was that risk something you were already aware of um i'm not sure if i was aware of it

01:41:12 um i'm not sure if i was aware of it then but i certainly have been made aware of it subsequently you say subsequently do you mean it

01:41:18 mean it in the intervening period between the 30th of april 2011 and the date of the fire

01:41:22 fire yes yes were you aware or were you made aware of any other risks with self-closing devices whereby they could be removed or or disconnected

01:41:36 um sorry i'm i'm not i mean i'm aware that

01:41:40 that there's there is a risk of them being removed or disconnected and where people feel they're a nuisance they may be more inclined

01:41:45 inclined to to do that and i know that when we've tried to get access to dwellings to replace self-closures sometimes that's been quite challenging because people

01:41:56 been quite challenging because people prefer not to have them replaced we also i recall had a discussion about whether

01:42:03 whether external south closers could be fitted because they would have the advantage of being able to be inspected um easily but i think we had some concerns that that might create a security

01:42:13 security issue so that wasn't progressed along those lines really yes now we can see from the letter that mr stokes is advising you from a draft

01:42:25 you from a draft a then draft of the lga guide yes

01:42:33 unless you tell me otherwise i'm going to proceed on the basis that there was no

01:42:37 no although material difference between the draft as it stood in april 2011 and the draft oh and the final version was published later that year but can i show you what it says i think the numbering changes um

01:42:48 the numbering changes um hom 30 is 45964 and if we go in that document to page 98 please

01:42:58 please let's look at paragraph 62.17

01:43:03 towards the bottom of the page

01:43:07 and it says it will not be practicable to test existing doors to confirm their actual fire resistance therefore three options exist in relation to original fire resisting doors that do not meet current

01:43:20 resisting doors that do not meet current benchmark standards these are first bullet accept the door as it is provided it is a good fit in its frame

01:43:27 its frame and then it satisfied the standard applicable to fire resisting doors at the time of construction of the building or manufacture of the door notional fd30 door upgrade the door by for example

01:43:38 door upgrade the door by for example fitting into mess and strips and smoke signals

01:43:40 signals smoke seals along the edges and fitting a protected letterbox upgraded fd30s door third bullet replace the door with an fd-30s door replacement

01:43:52 with an fd-30s door replacement third fd30s door and then over the page at 62.19 it says this it is essential

01:44:04 it says this it is essential that irrespective of which option is chosen far-resisting flat entrance doors and doors provided to protect common corridors lobbies and stairways should be fitted with suitable positive

01:44:15 should be fitted with suitable positive action self-closing devices the self-closing device should be capable of closing the door in its frame from any angle and overcoming the resistance of any latch rising butt hinges used to be acceptable

01:44:26 rising butt hinges used to be acceptable under previous benchmark guidance but are no longer considered suitable devices because they are unreliable in the effective closure of a door the fitting is a 62.20 the fitting of

01:44:38 the fitting is a 62.20 the fitting of suitable

01:44:38 suitable self-closing devices whether to replace rising butt hinges pictured below or because the doors are not fitted with self-closing devices must in bold be undertaken in the short term as a matter of priority

01:44:51 term as a matter of priority now i've shown you what mr stokes brought to your attention in the 30th of april

01:44:55 april 2011 letter did mr stokes bring those paragraphs to your attention he doesn't in the letter but did he otherwise

01:45:03 otherwise at that time um he may have done right but i would i would have read them you would have read them did you go and check the draft guidance as it

01:45:14 go and check the draft guidance as it stood in april 2011 or the final guidance which is in so far as we can tell the same terms later that year on this point

01:45:23 point likely to yeah likely to do you remember doing so

01:45:27 doing so not in 2011 no but i'm pretty confident right so can we proceed then on the basis

01:45:32 basis that you knew from april 2011 or perhaps later in the year but but certainly within 2011 of the requirements i've just read to you yes yes now then let's move on to the

01:45:44 yes yes now then let's move on to the installation uh the first door in the flat fire door replacement program across the stock was on the 11th of may 2011 wasn't it yes and um it sticks in the memory

01:45:56 yes and um it sticks in the memory because it was installed at flat 16 grenfell tower wasn't it i know it was grandfather wouldn't remember the flat but yes if you say that's one yes um can i take you to the letter that

01:46:07 yes um can i take you to the letter that you received from carl stakes after that installation cst 50991

01:46:20 23rd of may 2011 is the date and the title subject the fitting of the first replacement entrance daughter flat 16 brownfield tower dear janice thank you for inviting me to

01:46:31 dear janice thank you for inviting me to view the installation of the first replacement entrance door to flat 16 of grenfell tower on 11th of may

01:46:37 may my comments are limited to that of the fire requirements needed to be compliant with the fire safety order 2005. and then it goes on from the information given to me by the installation team on site

01:46:48 installation team on site and the technical sheets beforehand by yourself the door fitted was a fire rated version fd 30 of the f of the shore door grp range

01:46:57 range manufactured and installed by mans master door and it goes on the entrance door consisted of a grp composite door leaf within an insulated

01:47:08 composite door leaf within an insulated reinforced pvcu frame the door was fitted with a self-closing device intumescent and cold smoke seals and a fire

01:47:16 fire rated letter box all in accordance with the details supplied beforehand the door set has according to the manufacturer's information been successfully tested to bs 476 part 22.

01:47:31 now did you take that statement there as mr stakes's indication or statement perhaps that the doors complied with all fire safety and building regulations were applicable

01:47:43 were applicable to those doors i would have done now having been told that the doors were a fire rated version fd30 did you think that that was at odds with

01:47:54 did you think that that was at odds with his previous advice of the 10th of november 2010 and indeed parts of approved document b which he had provided to you no because he was all then confirming the self-closing device the intermediate

01:48:05 the self-closing device the intermediate coal smoke seals the fire-rated letterbox

01:48:08 letterbox um which my understanding was made it an ft-30

01:48:13 ft-30 door said and did you understand that they had been tested for cold smoke leakage or not i can't recall you asked me this before and i i couldn't recall then either sorry

01:48:24 sorry right so did you read this and i think i'm getting your evidence as follows but correct me if i'm wrong you read this that the door itself

01:48:33 itself was fd30 but because of it being fitted with a self-closing device intumescent and cold smoke seals and a fire-rated letter box it became fd30s

01:48:47 letter box it became fd30s i read this that it was an ft-30s but he he was highlighting that it was 30-minute fire-rated and not 60 or 120. right and again you didn't i take it

01:48:58 right and again you didn't i take it query

01:48:59 query that meaning with mr stokes or ask anybody in the technical team to take take that out with mance master door

01:49:07 door um i i can't recall doing right now after the doors were installed were you aware that there were problems with the self-closing devices in some

01:49:18 with the self-closing devices in some buildings

01:49:19 buildings no i wasn't you weren't uh right well let's let's just double check that can we look at your third witness statement please tmo double zero eight four seven three zero five page

01:49:31 zero five page seven paragraph 25

01:49:36 sorry with the exception of the closer the weight of the closer which i mentioned earlier that's the one thing i was aware of in relation to some people who struggled yes that's the yeah sorry that that's the one thing that i had been

01:49:47 the one thing that i had been made aware of right well let's just be let's just be clear about that because i was about to about to correct you but i think you you've virtually done that here at paragraph 25 of your third statement you say i do recall that some

01:49:58 statement you say i do recall that some elderly residents found the new doors to difficult to open on the basis that they were perceived as being too heavy as a result assisted closers were fitted to these particular doors these assisted closers are the only alternative self-closure that i'm aware

01:50:10 alternative self-closure that i'm aware of being provided to residents i did not believe any of these residents lived at grenfell tower that that's those are the issues that arose that's that's what i was made aware of yes i see

01:50:19 see now um can we look at tmo 1 four zeroes nine one five

01:50:32 and i think we could pick this up quickly this is the health and safety committee meeting 8th of september 2011. if we go to page 3

01:50:39 3 item 10 halfway down the page you advised

01:50:43 advised that the front door replacement works for progressing well and then you say some issues that are risen with door closes proving too strong for some of the very elderly and frail residents the manufacturer stroke installer has

01:50:55 the manufacturer stroke installer has been asked to recommend an alternative door closer that can be used in these cases and how is it that you became aware of that problem um i think it was our tenant liaison officer um who i think

01:51:08 tenant liaison officer um who i think was lorna cunningham um that that some these residents had contacted her um and she visited them and saw that there was a problem and she'd raised it with me

01:51:18 with me um and i'd sort of gone back to abby to say what what can we do here is this

01:51:25 this possibility um so something was trialled and i was actually asked to attend the the trial

01:51:31 the trial door and i got feedback from the residents and um some of our neighbors upstairs also and they were very happy with the alternative and i just remember that because they were really nice people how widespread was the problem across

01:51:42 how widespread was the problem across the stark um i'm i'm not aware that it was widespread um and i do recall asking that records be kept of all the locations where these were installed

01:51:53 were installed but in teresa i don't know whether that happened or whether it was put on keystone or anywhere but i felt it was important because there was potentially a different level of maintenance that would be required at those locations

01:52:04 those locations was this question discussed at any of the flyer

01:52:07 the flyer fire flat door sorry the fire flat front door replacement program project meetings in 2011. uh i don't know i would have thought it would have been but i probably by then wasn't able to go to all of them so i

01:52:18 wasn't able to go to all of them so i don't know for sure but i know that we we did progress in that way and it was um the residents were happy with the alternative right and do you remember

01:52:29 right and do you remember asking carl stokes for his advice on this question of removing or replacing self-closing devices where the residents were elderly or frail um i think i might have done yeah in

01:52:41 um i think i might have done yeah in fact it may to be fair it may have been him who suggested assisted closer um i mean he was i'm sure he would have been really robust in saying it can't they can't be removed without having an alternative closer

01:52:53 having an alternative closer yes let's just look at an email run on this topic um and perhaps in light of your evidence we can take this quite quickly can we go to tm00867924

01:53:07 and let's just go to page one of that it starts on page three um where you were copied into an uh a problem

01:53:14 problem arising at frinstead house and also king charles house with residents in their eighties you may remember that um you asked for carl stakes for advice and that then um we get his advice on page one

01:53:26 um we get his advice on page one uh and it comes from carl stakes page one

01:53:30 one comes from carl stakes to abby acosta copy to you or 4th of august 2011. abby after our telephone conversation earlier ref removing the self-closing device from the flat entrance door i

01:53:41 device from the flat entrance door i would recommend this does not happen the building regulations are quite specific on the requirements for self-closing devices to be fitted to flat entrance doors and as the replacement doors meet the requirements of the current building

01:53:52 requirements of the current building regulations and other fire safety guidance to remove the self-closer may cause insurance and other legal safety problems for instance you have removed a preventive safety element and consequently you've now downgraded the

01:54:04 consequently you've now downgraded the structural elements of the protected staircase

01:54:07 staircase i would strongly recommend that you check with your building's insurers about removing the self-cleansing device and ask for their opinion and if this affect any insurance cover uh

01:54:22 you remember receiving that advice i'm assuming um i think so i've certainly even read it recently yeah yes and he also sends a letter uh of the fourth of august at tm00867927

01:54:44 and here he provides a summary of what he had promised he would provide which is the guidance and um in the first paragraph on the first page

01:54:55 in the first paragraph on the first page uh he says uh in the third line you have asked if a self-closing device fitted to a flat entrance door located in a protected staircase or protected

01:55:06 in a protected staircase or protected corridor can be removed so as to aid the person opening the door was that a question you asked him um i think that was a question either coming possibly from lorna from the

01:55:17 coming possibly from lorna from the resident liaison officer who who'd spoken directly to the to the residence so i think that's where that question came from right do you recall reading this letter yeah right

01:55:29 yeah right and he then sets out the guidance contained in text contained in the rro which i think we're aware of even before you receive this letter yes um and he says

01:55:41 yes um and he says in the second paragraph the answer to your question is that if a self-cleaning device is fitted to a flat entrance door located in a protected staircase or a protected corridor then it should not be removed the reason for this answer is that and he sets out the text

01:55:53 answer is that and he sets out the text of the rro and goes on to say afterwards i believe that by removing the self-closing device from a fire door this could place other residents of the building at risk because if a fire was to occur within

01:56:04 because if a fire was to occur within the flat the entrance door would not close automatically so the smoke and flame could enter the common parts of the page

01:56:12 page two common parts of the building would not be confined to the dwelling of origin

01:56:22 this is because there was a device fitted and you have now disabled or removed it and then he goes on to set out article 32.3

01:56:32 32.3 of the fso and the responsible person as you can see on the rest of that page if we scroll down please to the rest of page two

01:56:47 and then over onto page three

01:56:51 see that so just pausing there you understood from receiving this letter on the 4th of august 2011 that removing a self-closing device was a serious matter

01:57:02 a serious matter yes it would have been a serious infringement of the responsible person's obligations under the rro indeed and he then quotes as i've shown you from the building regulations

01:57:14 you from the building regulations uh and particularly the beginning of the long italicized text a third of the way down your screen the flat entrance doors are critical to the safety of the common parts in the event of a fire within a flat the doors must be self-closing and

01:57:26 the doors must be self-closing and afford an adequate degree of fire resistance and then he goes on to publish to to quote from the newly published lga guide there and then you can see the

01:57:39 there and then you can see the conclusion

01:57:42 and he says under the conclusion i would advise that self-closing devices where fitted to a flat entrance door located in a protected staircase or a protected corridor should not be removed because the existing situation is being made worse

01:57:54 existing situation is being made worse the building regulations term and by removing the self-closing device you could be quotes placing one or more relevant persons at risk of death or serious injury in the case of a fire close quotes

01:58:05 close quotes there are alternative solutions to removing the self-closing device from the flat entrance door if you would like me to attend a meeting with the providers of the doors or with yourselves please instruct me

01:58:16 or with yourselves please instruct me so it's clear from this that you were aware not only of the importance of the need to make sure that there were self-closing devices in place but also that they were adequately maintained yeah yes

01:58:32 uh now he goes on to say at the very end the above is a personal view only and a definitive answer can only be given by a court of law

01:58:43 only be given by a court of law but i've undertaken the role of an enforcement officer for the fsa and carried out legal proceedings against owners stroke occupiers of premises i'd recommend you seek legal opinion from your solicitors and that your insurers are contacted for

01:58:54 and that your insurers are contacted for their opinion because by removing the self-closing devices this could affect clauses of the building's insurance if you say wish the enforcing authority for the fsa london fire and emergency planning authority

01:59:05 fire and emergency planning authority could be contacted for their opinion now although he says here that it's only a personal view am i right in thinking that you had no reason reading this not to follow the opinion

01:59:16 reading this not to follow the opinion he'd given as as your fire safety consultant so to speak

01:59:21 speak yeah of course yes and you had no reason yourself to disagree with that view is that no

01:59:25 that no no um i i think he got slightly carried away with his his answer but it's all there but it's all it's all there and more yes um did you um arrange a meeting to discuss with the alternative solutions

01:59:37 discuss with the alternative solutions as he had invited you to i have no idea but i do know that i um we did um install the automated self-closures that i spoke over earlier did you forward this letter to anybody

01:59:49 did you forward this letter to anybody else do you think well it's copy to abigail acosta um so indeed it's possible that i also sent a copy to simonthrop i'm not i'm not sure

01:59:57 not sure simon throp you think as well as abby acosta who you rightly point out has copied in on it uh so far as you are concerned

02:00:06 concerned uh were you satisfied that she as the project manager for the program understood uh what mr stokes was advising in this letter

02:00:15 letter i think so yes i think he's been quite clear now moving on in time then we come to november 2011.

02:00:24 tmo140959 please first page you'll see this is the minute of a committee me hell a tmo health and safety committee meeting 17th november 2011. uh you are present

02:00:38 17th november 2011. uh you are present and in the chair is lornette pemberton if we go down to page three please item eight

02:00:46 you can see uh there the second paragraph down janus advised that the flat entrance door replacement works we're still progressing well with close to 700 of the current 1200 doors in the program having been installed

02:00:58 program having been installed the issue surrounding the strength of the door closes proving too strong for some of the very elderly and frail residents seems to have been resolved with an alternative closer being used in these

02:01:07 these scenarios

02:01:10 uh what when the alternative self-closing devices were installed did you

02:01:14 you did you ask carl stokes or anybody else to check that they had been installed properly

02:01:19 properly and were compliant with the lga guidance and his own 4th of august 2011 letter advice um i don't know if i did right why is that

02:01:29 that why did i do that i just can't remember if i did is what i should have said was anybody required to monitor this question after the door replacement program was completed in other words monitor to ensure that

02:01:40 in other words monitor to ensure that self-closures were not disabled um we had a well we had a kind of range of of opportunities where we had access to dwellings and we tried to take advantage

02:01:52 dwellings and we tried to take advantage of those

02:01:53 of those um to make sure that cell closures were in place or that they were working effectively um we did heavily concentrate on void dwellings where we were doing major works it's something that we would look at

02:02:05 at we would we were what we tried to do at one stage was talk to our guest servicing contractors who are required to go into a substantial volume of our dwellings on

02:02:17 a substantial volume of our dwellings on a yearly basis to see if it's something we could

02:02:20 we could ask them to incorporate obviously with an additional degree of training and i think it was something that some other people in the sector had managed to instigate so we were quite keen on that

02:02:30 that unfortunately our gas service and contractors weren't weren't happy to oblige so we were always looking at other

02:02:35 other ways in order to to assess um self-closures carl was doing a percentage um so we were sort of and it wasn't it was piecemeal and it wasn't a consistent

02:02:47 was piecemeal and it wasn't a consistent program and as as you know um even when we we ultimately asked the council if we could do a program their view at that stage was

02:02:56 was not so we were trying to to take advantage of all of the opportunities that presented themselves but we didn't have a holistic program well well thank you for that and that answers a number of questions we may have you later on but

02:03:08 questions we may have you later on but we will come back to that topic perhaps later

02:03:12 focusing on the summer of 2011 do you remember that there was a self-def closing device coming out of the door

02:03:18 the door in king charles house in june of that year

02:03:22 year as a as a problem no the reason i suggest it might be memorable is because it was discussed in a progress meeting that you attended the next month if we can go to that just to refresh your recollection it's a tmo14087

02:03:39 on the first page you'll see that this is a progress meeting of the 7th of july 2011 at which abigail acosta was present as with you

02:03:49 with you you see that yes and lorna cunningham i think was the tla wasn't she the rlo now and you can see that there and if you uh go in that please to page four

02:04:01 you uh go in that please to page four uh you'll see

02:04:05 um nbc at the very top of the page nb confirmed that a new close of a 13 king charles house had been ordered and will arrange for making good with resident in due course

02:04:16 with resident in due course do you remember whether at that stage that the fact that there'd been a problem with one flat indicated a wider problem with these door closers across the estate no as far as i'm aware this was a

02:04:27 no as far as i'm aware this was a one-off

02:04:28 one-off right so far as you were aware that was a one-off

02:04:31 a one-off can we go to tm0086783 uh this is a an email run in later in the month

02:04:41 the month of july 2011 and the bottom of page three

02:04:45 three we'll see that there's an email not copied to you from carl stokes to abby acosta 21st july 2011 new doors at grenfell tower and he says on tuesday i was at

02:04:58 and he says on tuesday i was at lancaster west and was informed that the self-glazing device on three of the new flat entrance stores have come away from the door that is the same problem this is the same problem as in king charles house are you aware of this recurring

02:05:09 are you aware of this recurring fault and then that is in the subject of further discussion if you scroll up page three you can see that abby acosta comes back and says carl hi

02:05:21 abby acosta comes back and says carl hi no i'm not thanks for bringing to my attention i will raise as concern at our next site meeting and then uh if you scroll on up

02:05:32 and then uh if you scroll on up um you can see how that resolves itself but i i think it's right to say that this isn't at least in email terms brought to your attention but was this ever discussed at any of the progress meetings

02:05:44 the progress meetings um unless unless you tell me differently it doesn't ring any bells with me i genuinely when i wrote my witness statement it was based on my recollection that the self-closure was that

02:05:54 that was the automatic self-closure was the issue that that i recalled um coming up and um right i may have been aware of one or two specific um locations but i didn't know

02:06:05 specific um locations but i didn't know there was anything more than that at your regular meetings with mr stokes

02:06:10 stokes in the summer of 2011 did he not bring to your attention the recurring problem i don't believe that he did now right

02:06:21 we don't see any indication in your annual health and safety reports that the replacement flat entrance doors had any of the problems with the self-closers that have begun to emerge in july 2011

02:06:34 that have begun to emerge in july 2011 do we

02:06:35 do we well i says i don't i don't think i'm i'm genuinely don't think i was aware of them

02:06:39 them right and i i probably wouldn't have made specific reference to the automated closures because that's probably just too much detail for an annual report can you explain why abby acosta didn't bring this problem

02:06:51 bring this problem to your attention no i can't can you explain why carl stokes didn't bring this problem to your attention no really i mean how to the so you've obviously seen paperwork that i

02:07:02 you've obviously seen paperwork that i wasn't copied into how widespread was this

02:07:04 this well uh that's a that's a question i have to ask you you that but i i think did ask you and you didn't no no um who was abby acosta's line manager

02:07:16 no um who was abby acosta's line manager um i don't know if she reported directly to simonthrop i'm i'm not sure she was part of the capital team there may have been a manager between her and simon i'm sorry i'm not too sure right and who

02:07:27 i'm sorry i'm not too sure right and who did simon throp report to um

02:07:33 he may have reported directly to the chief exec

02:07:38 right i'd like to turn to the topic of monitoring and maintenance of flat entrance doors next after the front door replacement program

02:07:50 after the front door replacement program had come to an end and

02:07:54 end and can we start by looking at the lga guide hom 3045964 page 125 paragraph

02:08:06 page 125 paragraph 82.1

02:08:11 and 82 is entitled inspections and repairs of other fire safety measures and you can see that

02:08:18 that under 82.1 it says other fire safety measures such as fire resisting doors need also to be maintained the following details the basic requirements for routine attention in relation to these measures

02:08:30 attention in relation to these measures far resisting doors and then 82.3 it doesn't seem to be an 82.2

02:08:38 82.2 for some reason but 82.3 says good practice

02:08:41 practice is to inspect timber file resisting door sets on a six monthly basis as part of a program of planned preventive maintenance these inspections are aimed at identifying defects such

02:08:52 identifying defects such as first bullet missing or ineffective self-closing devices

02:09:00 and then it goes on damage doors or frames removal of locks without suitable repairs to the integrity of the doors poorly fitting doors caused by distortion or shrinkage or as a result

02:09:11 distortion or shrinkage or as a result of wear and tear newly fitted but inappropriate door furniture and doors which have been replaced

02:09:15 replaced using non-fire resisting types then 82.4 says this flat entrance doors should be included within this program where leasehold flats are involved this will only be possible if there is legal

02:09:26 will only be possible if there is legal right of access by means of a condition within the lease to carry this out it is important that any new leases include such a condition

02:09:35 i'm going to assume you were familiar with those paragraphs perhaps even from the draft in april 2011 would you agree and would you agree that inspections to identify those potential defects listed in the

02:09:47 those potential defects listed in the bullet points under 82.3 were necessary uh to be carried out by the tmo in order to make sure that the doors remained in good condition yep yes and thereby would you accept

02:10:00 yep yes and thereby would you accept to discharge the tmos obligations under article 17 of the right of the rro yes yes can you can you explain whether after the flat entrance door program had

02:10:12 after the flat entrance door program had come to an end a six monthly program of planned preventative maintenance was ever put in place by the tmo in respect of fire resisting doors not a six monthly program now why was

02:10:23 not a six monthly program now why was that

02:10:25 that a resource access those reasons really um we as i explained just now we tried to

02:10:36 as i explained just now we tried to um make use of the access that we were having

02:10:39 having we tried to ensure that where we had void properties where we were doing major works um we had caused losses inspections we had

02:10:48 had the esa's inspecting the outside of the doors

02:10:53 doors and any some of some of these things would be would be obvious if they were damaged or if there had been a temporary door which had nobody replaced um my colleague when he was

02:11:04 replaced um my colleague when he was doing his inspections would also have looked at the doors externally we had we had um programs in place in terms of inspecting the communal doors but flat entrance doors we did not have

02:11:18 but flat entrance doors we did not have a comprehensive six monthly um inspection you mentioned resource yes it's just i mean i i think i need to

02:11:29 it's just i mean i i think i need to also say

02:11:29 also say that i don't know anybody else from all of the groups that i attended who was who was able to put in place a six-month monthly i think it was a sector

02:11:39 sector issue people had different ways of trying to approach it but i'm not aware of anyone who had a six monthly inspection program in place so it was something that we were all struggling with how could we how could we resource it but also

02:11:51 we resource it but also if we did have the resource and we were going to action this if people didn't give you access how were you going to achieve access and and actually how problematic would that would that be

02:12:02 that would that be we knew from safety inspections we've got quite a large team of administrators trying to make sure that we get access to all of those dwellings

02:12:11 dwellings and so it wasn't just a resource to do the inspections it was a resource to make sure

02:12:16 make sure that access was available right so results in two senses money and people bodies yeah in relation to money

02:12:30 people bodies yeah in relation to money was resource a problem um well it was it was going to be new work so it it potentially we could have find a budget for it but it would have meant not doing something else right i'm so sorry sorry no okay did you

02:12:43 right i'm so sorry sorry no okay did you ever discuss with anthony stokes until 2015 and then barbara matthews a a budget to cover the requisite

02:12:56 to cover the requisite six monthly preventative maintenance program

02:13:01 program i'm confident i would have discussed it with both of them yeah when do those discussions about budget begin roughly do you remember sorry now right now we'll come to the

02:13:13 sorry now right now we'll come to the access

02:13:13 access questions a little bit later but can we go to your first statement please at page 7 paragraph 31. uh

02:13:30 at page 7 paragraph 31. uh you you you say there once the doors were installed it was for the tmo to monitor the flat entrance doors and ensure that they remained in good

02:13:41 and ensure that they remained in good condition for this reason coal states continued to inspect a percentage of the front entrance doors as part of the ongoing fra program

02:13:50 this required carl stokes to gain access to a flat

02:13:53 to a flat as the self-closing device was not visible when the door was shut now just to be to be clear uh carl stokes was only instructed to inspect high-rise buildings

02:14:05 inspect high-rise buildings like grenfell tower every two every two years or every three years wasn't he yes unless there were material alterations and he had to go more frequently yes so that wasn't the regularity

02:14:16 yes so that wasn't the regularity recommended by the lga guide was it no no

02:14:21 now without going to every single fra for grenfell tower did you ever ask for or receive a positive assurance that carl stokes

02:14:32 a positive assurance that carl stokes had inspected the inside of any flat front door

02:14:38 um i don't know if i asked for um but i

02:14:46 my understanding that the requirements of the of the contract were that he would

02:14:51 would inspect a percentage we had discussed the need for him to inspect each different kind of door um in the in the building which in some of our buildings could be quite quite varied

02:15:03 quite quite varied and ideally multiple versions of each different kind of door and that's what he was

02:15:10 he was endeavoring to do my understanding is that sometimes he had access problems but

02:15:16 but um quite often he was able to get into enough

02:15:19 enough dwellings in order i'm talking across the whole stock um to do the inspections that we've just discussed he then was required to

02:15:30 discussed he then was required to identify any remedial works that were necessary and the significant findings of the action plan um and

02:15:37 um and it wasn't uncommon for for there to be a comment that uh of a specific flat um which would require

02:15:45 require um a self-closer fitted or or repaired or a letterbox issue or i mean there was evidence from what he was doing across the stock that he was trying to fulfill that obligation right now leaving a leaving

02:15:57 now leaving a leaving on one side the single instance of flat 112

02:16:01 112 which is referred to in the june 2016 fra

02:16:05 fra even that on one side my question was and without going to every single fra for grenfell tower that mr stokes ever did did you ever ask him for or ever receive from him a positive

02:16:17 ever receive from him a positive assurance

02:16:19 assurance that he had inspected the inside of any flat front door i the answer to your question is i don't recall asking for a positive assurance

02:16:31 recall asking for a positive assurance um and i but i

02:16:36 such long time ago but i would have expected him to identify the flats where he did get access

02:16:43 access whether um within the body of his report um and then if they weren't compliant or if there were issues that needed um to be actioned for that to be identified in the significant findings

02:16:56 identified in the significant findings did he ever tell you either how many flats he had been able to obtain access to for the purposes of such an inspection

02:17:07 inspection even outside the fra for that block no and i can only think of it in terms of all of the blocks because obviously the requirement was the same across all of them i don't remember

02:17:18 across all of them i don't remember asking for that information specifically um

02:17:22 um and i don't remember him providing it specifically and it would therefore follow from that wouldn't it is this right that he never told you about any particular difficulties in

02:17:33 about any particular difficulties in accessing any particular flats or in any particular blocks for the purposes of that inspection no not especially [Applause]

02:17:54 can we go then to your first witness statement please at page seven

02:18:05 and let's look at paragraph 32 you say that

02:18:09 that the front entrance doors were also monitored to a degree by caretakers also known as estate service assistance during their weekly and monthly communal area inspections for example our caretakers were trained

02:18:20 for example our caretakers were trained to look for any obvious damage to the door

02:18:23 door door furniture and door frame they would not however access a flat to ensure that the self-closing device was fitted and operational now you say that the esas would monitor the flat entrance

02:18:35 esas would monitor the flat entrance doors during weekly and monthly inspections can we look at the weekly esa checks spreadsheet which you exhibited as jw25

02:18:46 spreadsheet which you exhibited as jw25 for your third witness statement you may remember

02:18:48 remember it it's tmo double zero 847315

02:19:01 now this may be a difficult document to navigate um but um let's see how we go if you look i'd like to just run through

02:19:13 if you look i'd like to just run through the headings of each column and if we can do that without disappearing into blur that would be good i wonder whether this may not be easy perhaps i should try it by

02:19:24 by wherever negative do you accept that it doesn't include flat entrance doors um it may not explicitly cover flat entrance doors but i would expect as their responsibility is to inspect the

02:19:35 responsibility is to inspect the communal parts um and they understood that that anything that they witnessed in relation to doors

02:19:43 to doors although this is quite prescriptive there's an opportunity for them to do some free text and also they can ring the repairs desk and and order things um and have always been able to do that so these these are things we absolutely

02:19:55 so these these are things we absolutely need them to do but that it's not confined to that except for me that it doesn't include flat entrance doors if i'm wrong about that then no doubt those advising you can correct us no i

02:20:06 those advising you can correct us no i think you're probably right my point is that it would be um accompanied by some free text

02:20:11 free text and the and the remit in terms of the communal areas was very clear to them yes now then let's look at the monthly check spreadsheet which you also kept i think cst6069

02:20:30 think cst6069 uh and and i think we're going to need the native version of that i just want to put it in front of you

02:20:47 this is more legible yeah um you you will i think need and we are on sheet two looking at the uh headings across the um across the document do you again

02:20:58 um across the document do you again accept that there is no uh reference there in the headings to flat entrance doors yes yes so it wasn't formally a part of the esa's weekly and

02:21:11 formally a part of the esa's weekly and monthly inspections was it it it was required of them absolutely definitely every time they're inspecting the communal areas um but it isn't it's it's within

02:21:23 um but it isn't it's it's within you know there'll be defects and repairs they're identifying that don't fit neatly within these columns but i wouldn't expect them to walk away from them and not report them that that that's they are very clear

02:21:35 that that's they are very clear that their their remit is for the communal areas indeed and you say earlier that they would they would um report those separately uh or by

02:21:49 separately uh or by writing them down somewhere or ringing the repairs desk yes why didn't you simply have a column in these two

02:21:55 these two uh spreadsheets say that esa's could fill them in i mean we could have done well why didn't you i've absolutely no idea um i mean i was consulted on on the spreadsheet but it isn't my document

02:22:08 spreadsheet but it isn't my document i was consulted on what needed to be incorporated into the the pda and prior to that the the written version of their checklist but as i say it's it's

02:22:19 it's it's i mean if they were going to just stick to these checks they're going to miss lots of other things that need to be identified right um and and i think probably considering as you can see how many columns there are now we probably thought well there

02:22:31 are now we probably thought well there is an opportunity for free text

02:22:35 i i can't give you any other explanation um

02:22:38 um it will have been a decision for the estate services team leader in in the long run

02:22:42 long run but um i'm very clear that i would you know

02:22:46 know we looked yesterday at some training that we did with them where we showed some horrendously damaged doors there's no way they're going to walk away and not have reported those kinds of you know those kinds of things or anything else well you say that you see that's

02:22:58 else well you say that you see that's leaving

02:22:59 leaving it up to their judgment was there a system

02:23:03 system which where they could place their observations about flat front doors whether they were visible from the outside or from internal inspections um i i haven't

02:23:18 um i i haven't i'm not really in a position to comment on how they work to their pda i would have understood there to be free text opportunity to put in all of those additional things that don't come into those

02:23:27 those prescribed columns um however and just to reiterate we had a free phone repairs desk and there was always um an esa hotline so they had their own

02:23:37 their own direct way into it where they would report particularly anything that they thought was urgent um so so there wasn't you know this was this was supplemented by something else that they had ready access to right

02:23:48 else that they had ready access to right supposing

02:23:49 supposing uh in a given month you wanted to know uh

02:23:53 uh what buildings your what flat front doors

02:23:57 doors in all of your stock your esa's had examined

02:24:01 examined what would you look at well i would i would go to the repairs um data and ask somebody to run me a report for how many flat entrance doors will i decide the

02:24:13 flat entrance doors will i decide the criteria

02:24:13 criteria about how many flat interest doors have been reported as a defective or requiring repair replacement and they would be able to provide me with that kind of information i i see and and you say they would run a report what would that

02:24:25 report what would that what would the report be based on what database

02:24:29 database would it be well it would be from the repair system which um i think is capital house i can't it wouldn't it's not keystone and it's not wd um

02:24:39 not wd um it would be the repair system um that we have in place for raising orders but don't ask me what it's called because it's probably changed a few times

02:24:47 times i see so so what you're actually asking for there is not a list of which have been inspected but a list of which of those have been damaged and repaired yes which is what we said um in in my

02:25:00 yes which is what we said um in in my statement

02:25:01 statement that they would be doing a visual check and they would be highlighting anything that needed attention from what they could see so it's defect reporting so so i

02:25:12 so it's defect reporting so so i appreciate what you're asking me but the honest answer is it's defect reporting do you accept i think on the basis of what you've just said

02:25:21 said uh that uh estate services assistants or caretakers would check

02:25:29 check fire doors or flat flat entrance doors

02:25:36 as part of those inspections but but so far as flat entrance tools are concerned visually and ad hoc visually all the time because they're

02:25:47 visually all the time because they're walking through the building they're looking at lighting they're looking at storage they're looking at all of those things so

02:25:51 things so visually and ongoing but unless the resident was there and asked them to come and look at their door from inside or ask them a question they wouldn't normally have access and we wouldn't have it wouldn't have been

02:26:02 we wouldn't have it wouldn't have been expected

02:26:03 expected let's see what paul steadman says in his statement to the inquiry his first statement at tmo one double zero four nine eight seven five four nine eight seven

02:26:18 five

02:26:22 that's page one of his first statement of the inquiry can we go to page three in it

02:26:26 in it and look at paragraph 13 together

02:26:31 he says in i do not know which companies or individuals were responsible for replacing

02:26:37 replacing and inspecting the flat entrance stores across the tmo housing stock or what companies

02:26:41 companies or individuals were responsible for inspecting the self-closing devices i would check the communal fire doors as part of my estate inspections to ensure that they were closing properly however i did not inspect flat

02:26:52 properly however i did not inspect flat entrance doors other than to check them visually

02:26:56 visually on an ad hoc basis do you agree with his description of what he did um i mean that would be for him to say

02:27:07 um i mean that would be for him to say my expectation and i think i've always been quite clear with dsas is that they're doing a visual check of all of the common parts every time they go into them um because they're our eyes and ears and we don't have anybody else

02:27:18 and ears and we don't have anybody else regularly on site um if that's his if that's what he was doing then that's for him to say well you say that's for him to say if on the basis that what he's telling the inquiry there is

02:27:29 what he's telling the inquiry there is correct

02:27:31 correct was that or was that not in accordance with the tmos system for inspection but that's a that's the point i'm making our

02:27:42 our expectations of the estate services assistance was that they were responsible for inspecting the communal areas and that included a visual check of the all of the doors whether that be

02:27:53 all of the doors whether that be communal doors or the closed face of the the main entrance or the flat engine stores so just to be crystal clear when he says he did it visually on an ad hoc basis you say that that wasn't sufficiently in accordance with the

02:28:05 sufficiently in accordance with the system that the tmo had put in place because the tmo expected its essays to check every single door well yeah yeah i mean yes i mean they they're meant to do a visual check

02:28:16 they they're meant to do a visual check they're doing a visual check of the communal areas i think self-evidently i would expect that well it may not be self-evident i just want to know that whether that was in accordance with the system so you say ad

02:28:27 accordance with the system so you say ad hoc was a departure from the tma system yes yes yes um if what paul stedman says here is not only correct but was what many

02:28:38 is not only correct but was what many esas were doing would you agree that they were not monitoring the flat entrance stores in a way that would discharge the tmos obligations as recommended in the lga guide which

02:28:50 as recommended in the lga guide which was to have a system of planned preventative maintenance yeah but that but that wasn't the only bit of the the picture as i say we were looking at void flats and we were where we did

02:29:01 void flats and we were where we did major works and we were looking to try and get our gas contractors we were trying to to add other bits to the picture yes so it is the picture so far just drawing the threads together

02:29:13 far just drawing the threads together that the esa's were supposed to go around

02:29:16 around every block look at every frat front door

02:29:20 door and then would report repairs that were needed

02:29:23 needed and those would go on to the database and then you might run a report off

02:29:29 yeah part of it yeah yes i've just described

02:29:32 described is that what you would describe as a planned preventative maintenance program to identify any defects in the fire resisting doors as recommended by the lga guide no

02:29:45 as recommended by the lga guide no no but it was at that stage our best efforts

02:29:48 efforts to to work towards one thank you did you ever as a matter of fact run off a report of the kind that you've identified i i probably did but i can't

02:29:59 i i probably did but i can't confirm more than i now can i just ask you to look at your first witness statement again please page seven

02:30:14 paragraph 33 finally we also expected tenants to let us know if there was any problem with their doors specifically section 5.3.1 of the tenancy agreement

02:30:26 tenancy agreement required that the tenant will report all repairs and defects in the premises to the landlord or its agent immediately um did you expect that that self-reporting requirement would be part of the tmo's

02:30:37 requirement would be part of the tmo's maintenance and inspection uh regime no no but it is it is one way of us being put on notice that there's a problem and being able to deal with it yes and i think it follows from what you've just

02:30:48 think it follows from what you've just accepted that you couldn't rely on the presence of that provision uh to discharge your statutory obligations to ensure that the flat entrance doors were adequately maintained no no and particularly where the door

02:30:59 no and particularly where the door closer wasn't working because it had been removed or disconnected by a tenant fed up with holding the door open while they're pushing a pram through it with lots of shopping yes yes yes

02:31:13 now can i just ask you to look at your supplementary statement please at

02:31:19 tm00847305

02:31:23 at page 19 paragraph 64. i've been asked what information was given to residents regarding the purpose and importance of the self-closers on their uh on their flat entrance doors

02:31:36 on their uh on their flat entrance doors i believe this would have been addressed in some of the periodic fire safety articles in the link but also by the lfb as part of any home fire safety visits that they conducted residents were advised of the

02:31:47 residents were advised of the opportunity to receive a home fire safety visit in the leaflet given to new tenants now we've looked at link magazine you you and i together uh uh

02:32:01 you you and i together uh uh and the inquiry has reviewed all the link magazines for tenants between 2013 and 2017 and we've been unable to find any article at all about the importance of self-closers

02:32:12 self-closers to flat entrance doors okay would you agree with that um i'm sure if that's what you say that that's correct what i haven't referred to here is and i'm confident that

02:32:22 that the letter that the new resident got with the home fire safety leaflet did refer to itself closers um and i'm confident that the resident's handbook also referred to self-closers i

02:32:33 handbook also referred to self-closers i don't know about the website off the top of my head but i would have thought so i clearly didn't make this very comprehensive whenever i produced it right uh well we may need to follow that

02:32:44 right uh well we may need to follow that up a little bit uh in due course by reference to some documents

02:32:48 documents but so far as link is concerned and as far as the home ownership letter is concerned

02:32:53 concerned we've found no reference to self-closing devices in those documents would you agree with that i'm surprised but if if you've reviewed them then right do you know why there were no articles about self-closing devices in link magazine or

02:33:05 devices in link magazine or the home ownership newsletter no and certainly in terms of leaseholders we'd written to every one of our leaseholders um to outline the standards that they need to to put in place for their door which

02:33:16 which obviously would have included self-closing device what is the basis of your belief that the lfb informed residents about the importance of self-closures during their home fire safety visit um

02:33:30 actually i don't know for sure but um my understanding of home fire safety visit is the brigade will attend and look at the specific um circumstances in that dwelling in um in terms of um the so peop so people have confidence

02:33:44 um the so peop so people have confidence that what they're being told relates to them specifically and their own fire procedures so it seems sensible that that would be one of the

02:33:51 the things i covered now i think you've given two instances of information being given to tenants about the importance of maintaining self-closing devices leaflets and the

02:34:04 self-closing devices leaflets and the tenant's handbook yeah yes we'll we'll we'll look at that uh perhaps in due course just to check what was said um but at least conceptually do you

02:34:17 um but at least conceptually do you agree that if residents had not been told of the purpose and the importance of self-closers on their flat entrance stores then you couldn't rely on them to raise problems with the tma my um

02:34:30 with the tma my um i believe that when the doors were installed

02:34:33 installed there was some handover information and i

02:34:37 i believe that that also included information about the importance of self-closure i think it came either from mance mastador or lhc but um that was my understanding that

02:34:48 but um that was my understanding that when people got a new door they also got an information pack which would have had um some information about that have you seen such a document not in recent times but it but it was always my understanding that that's

02:34:59 always my understanding that that's that there was a kind of handover sign-off type type situation but perhaps abby can confirm that right

02:35:07 well we may need to look at that as well um now let's turn to the topic of ongoing maintenance of self-closing devices um can we go to your first

02:35:18 your first statement please again page 45 this time and look at paragraph 207

02:35:29 and in that paragraph you refer to the deficiency notice uh which the tmo had received in respect of adair tower on the 12th of october uh 2015 which identified among other

02:35:41 uh 2015 which identified among other things that the flat entrance stores in that building were not all fitted with self-closing devices and if you go on paragraph 208 at page 46 you say this the door

02:35:52 page 46 you say this the door replacement program of 2012 had focused primarily on the composition of flat entrance doors if a door was deemed non-compliant then we would replace it and the new doors made by man's master door would

02:36:03 made by man's master door would incorporate a self-closer however there had been no program to retrofit self-closers unless this was highlighted by the fra it was therefore clear to us following receipt of this deficiency

02:36:14 following receipt of this deficiency notice that the self-closing devices were becoming a new focus of the lfb and would therefore likely become a wider industry issue what do you mean by becoming a new

02:36:26 issue what do you mean by becoming a new focus

02:36:26 focus for the lfb bearing in mind this is mid-october 2015. yeah um

02:36:36 yeah um uh so sorry it was something that we had so when we had advised the brigade some time before that that we would look

02:36:47 some time before that that we would look to

02:36:48 to install um upgrade replace as necessary self-closing devices on foid flats and at various opportunities where we were doing major works whatever at that point in time it became clear that the brigade's view

02:37:00 it became clear that the brigade's view was that was not going to get us a hundred percent closes across the stock quick enough and therefore we need to radically change our approach um so i suppose in terms of us it was

02:37:11 um so i suppose in terms of us it was becoming more of a focus because um the requirements were now no longer

02:37:16 longer acceptable to them right i mean do you accept that in fact the lfb or lfepa had actually raised the question of self-closing devices as early as march 2009 um yes

02:37:30 as early as march 2009 um yes yes and there's the steve turek letter at tm00870149 we don't need to look at it

02:37:36 it did you accept that it was actually a historical concern of the nfb's for some six years before october 2015. yes yes now

02:37:47 yes yes now let's just look at the deficiency notice if we can lfb four zero is one six one three

02:38:04 uh there it is 12th of october 2015. and when you got that uh i think you then arranged a meeting with rebecca burton didn't you

02:38:15 with rebecca burton didn't you um i i certainly arranged a meeting after the fire i i can't recall if it was in relation to this sorry i'm not sure well let's look at the document lfb four

02:38:26 well let's look at the document lfb four zeros

02:38:27 zeros four

02:38:33 this is an email uh oh okay yeah you're right

02:38:37 right i'm sorry sorry you're correct i i didn't remember the timing um this is from you to rebecca burton 22nd of october 2015. now just to be clear

02:38:47 clear this is uh nine days i think before the fire at uh adja tower isn't it yes hi rebecca could we urgently arrange a meeting please to discuss

02:38:59 a meeting please to discuss the issues that you put on the agenda for our meeting on tuesday that you were then unfortunately unable to attend i'm concerned to hear from julie that she is about to issue five deficiency notices

02:39:09 notices one for each five separate staircases at balfour house at least in part due to the fact that nominally fire-rated flat doors do not have self-closures fitted our approach to self-closures has been

02:39:20 approach to self-closures has been dictated

02:39:21 dictated by our fire risk assessor following clarification he received from a discussion the lfb head of policy and the head of enforcement and we have provided many fras to the lfb over the years but not been challenged

02:39:33 over the years but not been challenged about this approach therefore in good faith we considered we were applying the appropriate standard if that is not the case or if the lfb standard has changed its position on this i need to

02:39:44 its position on this i need to understand this not least because of the potential impact on our organization now could you just explain what the approach to self-closers had been before you wrote this email um

02:39:58 had been before you wrote this email um it was that we would take a variety of opportunities where we could readily access flats to ensure that what that self-closers were were present

02:40:08 present or that they were to be installed um uh subsequent to this it became clear that that was not going to get us sufficient coverage throughout the stock um swiftly enough

02:40:19 um swiftly enough but i think there'd also been some risky communication between carl and the head of policy and enforcement or that's what seemed to became teased out of my correspondence with

02:40:30 out of my correspondence with right what was the nature of that miscommunication did you think um well it i i think carlos referred to a meeting that you'd had with the head of policy

02:40:42 that you'd had with the head of policy but didn't have a written record of it and i wasn't there so i i i'm sort of speculating about what was said but i i think

02:40:53 said but i i think it left him and therefore me with the impression that what we were doing was going to eventually meet the standard and

02:40:59 and as long as we had lots of other things in place um that would meet lfb requirements whereas in fact that was no longer uh clear right right i'm going to ask you a little bit more

02:41:11 i'm going to ask you a little bit more detail about that in just a moment before i do can i just ask i just ask you this why did you think that lfb might have changed its standard um well just because i thought they were

02:41:24 um well just because i thought they were clearer about our approach um and so i i didn't know if something had changed um with them or with us and it's always worth clarifying because we wouldn't always know about

02:41:35 because we wouldn't always know about internal changes in the brigade unless we asked

02:41:38 we asked and yes sorry sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry you also mentioned that you had you had up to that point been pursuing a variety of opportunities uh as a policy uh and you then i think

02:41:51 uh as a policy uh and you then i think identified some of those could you just explain

02:41:54 explain perhaps list the opportunities that you were using um so we were we were concentrating on um void so in in terms of in inspection

02:42:05 um void so in in terms of in inspection we had inspection regimes in place for specialized housing for temporary accommodation and where we had communal shared facilities um and a number of other locations

02:42:16 and a number of other locations and we still had those in place so that that was good um we were um concentrating i suppose on voids and where we were doing major works or where we were doing um redecorations

02:42:27 or where we were doing um redecorations where

02:42:28 where doors were being replaced they were being replaced to the current standard so that should obviously include it would be an ft-30s as required um there was probably more but those are the things that that spring to mind

02:42:40 the things that that spring to mind right so really voids major works uh and the temporary and communal and specialized housing and specialized housing i see yeah now coming back then to what you're referring to a moment ago about this

02:42:52 referring to a moment ago about this discussion that uh had been had with the lfb head of policy and head of enforcement um was uh

02:43:02 um was uh were you referring there to a conversation that carl stokes had had with andy jack um i think i was i think that's what he'd advise me out here

02:43:13 that's what he'd advise me out here and was that discussion at a meeting on the 8th of november 2012 um i think it was at the tail end of the meeting and i don't think i was party to all of it i think i'd i've shuffled off

02:43:25 all of it i think i'd i've shuffled off yes

02:43:26 yes so you you were not at all of that meeting um no i think the meeting was probably about leaseholder doors and i i think carl want to take the opportunity to speak to andy jack and raise some specific things so i don't think i stayed for that

02:43:38 so i don't think i stayed for that right now let's look at what andrew jack says about that meeting himself this is met3040018

02:43:51 this is met3040018 and i'll show you just the first page of that this is um his police statement and if we go please in it to page 12.

02:44:04 in it to page 12. uh you can see paragraph 64 towards the foot of the page if we can blow that up say it's

02:44:09 say it's a little bit more legible please yes thank you

02:44:12 thank you um he says uh in respect of maintenance of

02:44:15 of self-closing devices he says this by my recollection we further discussed the issue of doors and door closers in relation to the maintenance and management requirements of the rrfso

02:44:28 management requirements of the rrfso under article 17 and article 11. the point being made by me that collectively there was a need not only to maintain doors and self-closing devices in an efficient state and good working order

02:44:39 working order but that this should be subject to effective planning organization control monitoring and review the extent of the monitoring and maintenance regime would need to be circumstances specific

02:44:50 need to be circumstances specific so that sufficient checks of the ongoing functionality of fire resisting doors and self-closing devices could be monitored and necessary remedial action undertaken in a timely manner my recollection is

02:45:03 in a timely manner my recollection is that it was at this point that checking of fire resisting compartmentation generally as part of the fire risk assessment process was also discussed the point being raised though i cannot recall by whom that gaining access to

02:45:14 recall by whom that gaining access to flats to undertake any sort of intrusive checks

02:45:17 checks such as drilling into ceilings to confirm their construction and fire resistance was difficult and maybe contrary to the terms of lease or tenancy i highlighted the possibility of carrying

02:45:28 of carrying out these types of checks in flats which have become vacant or as it is known a void another check that i was aware being applied was a less intrusive check of the self-closer

02:45:39 of the self-closer and any obvious compartmentation issues such as fire stopping around pipe work which was done at the time of a landlord's gas safety check though clearly

02:45:47 clearly that would not be applicable in all cases

02:45:51 cases do you recall the discussion in the way in which mr jack recalls it as i've read to you there not especially actually no right you know d do you recall

02:46:02 know d do you recall that he explained that the lfb's view was that there was a quote a need not only to maintain doors and self-closing devices

02:46:08 devices in an efficient state and good working order yes i can see that you do remember that but

02:46:12 that but i don't know if i remember it but you've just read it to me so i'm sure that's okay did you also remember that he said that it should be subject to effective planning organization control monitoring and review

02:46:22 review yes you do well only because you've read it to me do you agree with with his his opinion as expressed there i agree with his opinion um yeah it should be yes undoubtedly do

02:46:33 um yeah it should be yes undoubtedly do you remember whether mr jack explained how often those checks would need to be done well no i don't recall or what type of monitoring and review could or should be done

02:46:47 don't recall do you remember what you do you remember that he suggested that self-closing devices could be checked when the gas safety check was done yeah and i think we discussed that we we did try and um instigate that but our

02:47:00 we did try and um instigate that but our gas contractors weren't amenable right once they went when did you do that when did you talk to your gas contractors about the possibility of gaining access to flats for that purpose at the same time as gas

02:47:11 for that purpose at the same time as gas fire six

02:47:12 fire six um it would have been in alex pozman's time because it would have been him doing the

02:47:16 doing the talking to his contractors once you were defeated by that possibility because the gas undertakers wouldn't play ball what did you do next and we were constantly looking for other

02:47:28 and we were constantly looking for other ways of doing it right but also other ways of ensuring that we could get access to do it um right and what about flats where there was no gas supply well precisely

02:47:39 precisely that we hadn't got a right so that that was only ever going to be at best a piece meal or partial i think it probably would have been as many as 5 000

02:47:48 000 properties um so it would have been a significant step in the right direction but it wasn't one that they were prepared to countenance which is frustrating and i hope there was perhaps a way under the contract

02:47:59 was perhaps a way under the contract that we could have pushed it but um i was advised by my colleague that that wasn't a way that we could go right now you

02:48:10 right now you uh just said that it was in alex bosman's time because he would be talking to the contractors did you actually instruct that exposement to go to the gas undertakers and ask them to carry out yes i believe

02:48:22 and ask them to carry out yes i believe we did you did yes and when did you do that do you remember i don't remember but i think he started at the very beginning of 2013 so it could have been considerable

02:48:33 2013 so it could have been considerable time ago now can we then move on in time to the next year 2013 because this this meeting here is 8th of november 2012.

02:48:44 2012. we now go to december 2013 lfb403534

02:48:53 this is an email that you sent to matthew ramsey on the 18th of december 2013 as you can see copied to nicholas cummery

02:49:02 cummery free fire safety elm park house and under paragraph one you say it's reassuring to know that you consider the flat entrance doors at this block to be fire resisting

02:49:14 block to be fire resisting i know your concern about self-closing devices and i would reiterate our approach to flat entrance doors which as i believe you're aware have been discussed with your colleagues at the lfb consistently over recent

02:49:25 at the lfb consistently over recent years and again at our regular meeting yesterday

02:49:27 yesterday specifically in relation to tenant stores our approach is as follows first bullet when replacement flat doors entrance doors are fitted they are fire rated and self-closing

02:49:38 rated and self-closing second bullet when properties become void self closers will be reinstated stroke installed as necessary third bullet at other times when major work is being undertaken in the in a dwelling the self-closure will be

02:49:49 dwelling the self-closure will be reinstated as if it has been disconnected now does that set out your understanding as

02:49:57 as it stood in december 2013 yes it probably does what sort of work did you anticipate that major work would include um so major work could when i send a

02:50:09 um so major work could when i send a capital work program so something that's not a responsive program um so it could be a planned it could be cyclical decks it could be uh reef replacement door replacement new heating systems new windows it could be

02:50:20 heating systems new windows it could be a range of of different diff different kinds of capital projects so could that have included the grenfell tower refurbishment uh yes i suppose it could yes so the grenfell tower refurbishment would

02:50:32 the grenfell tower refurbishment would have been just the occasion according to your understanding when all the flats could have been accessed in order to ensure that the self-closing devices were installed and operating

02:50:41 operating yes yeah but is it is it right otherwise that once the replacement flat entrance doors had been fitted and fitted with self-closing devices

02:50:53 and fitted with self-closing devices they wouldn't be properly assessed or reinstated or refitted with self-closing devices unless either the property became void or when major

02:51:04 the property became void or when major work was being undertaken unless they were in or the residents raised a concern and issue a repair or or a tradesman repairs operative was in

02:51:14 in the dwelling and discovered a defect or noted the absence of so that the kind of were a variety but it was ad hoc yes no subject to what i've just put to

02:51:25 yes no subject to what i've just put to you and your auditions did you think that that satisfied what andy jack had told you at the meeting on the 8th of november 2012 namely that you needed a system of monitoring and review

02:51:37 monitoring and review no no so

02:51:40 no no so can we take it that you were always aware that the lfb were not happy with the system from of monitoring and review of flat entrance doors self-closers

02:51:54 as i said i don't recall that bit of the meeting

02:51:57 meeting however i i knew it was something that we wanted to work towards and that we needed to be doing but but at that stage we hadn't been able to introduce a

02:52:08 we hadn't been able to introduce a consistent program right so we can take it can we the approach that you set out to matthew ramsey here was not one which would have been approved by the lfb

02:52:19 would have been approved by the lfb historically no but what i would say is if we had had a program and we had had access to reinstate or all of the closers the fire brigade could easily have attended the next day and find one of

02:52:31 attended the next day and find one of them disconnected we were sort of hiding to nothing that yes we should and could have been doing um if you know if we'd had resources in all of those reasons um a proactive regular program

02:52:43 um a proactive regular program but we still could not ensure provide any assurance to anybody that that would stay 100

02:52:49 stay 100 connected and that all of those devices would would stay in place but there's no requirement in the lga guide as you understood it surely that that would be the case no but there kind of is from the fire brigade um that if if you've got

02:53:01 brigade um that if if you've got something holistic in place and they turn up and there's there's one not there then that sort of calls into question your your whole approach um anyway why do you say that

02:53:11 say that well just because that because that's where i've got to with him before right so are you saying that you you understood the lfe's approach to be that you

02:53:18 you if there was one self-closing device defective in the building then you're your

02:53:23 your your program was uh defective um some of the lfb officers view is that it should be 100 and it's it's the landlord's responsibility and and

02:53:34 responsibility and and yes i'm not saying everybody but so we're certainly some that i've had conversations with that serve you right did you receive a reply to this email do you think uh sorry i have no idea

02:53:45 do you think uh sorry i have no idea matthew ramsey would normally have been quite responsive so um do you remember what it said do you remember we haven't seen it or no cause

02:53:54 was the approach that we see set out in this email uh in accordance with your obligation set out in the lga guide we looked at earlier

02:54:01 earlier doesn't look as if it was no no was this approach set out in this email formalized in any policy or written down anywhere

02:54:10 anywhere um i thought that it was

02:54:13 but i thought i thought that it was who was responsible for ensuring that void flats or empty flats met health and safety standards and fire safety standards

02:54:25 standards and fire safety standards before being let or re-let that would be the repairs department right repairs direct and so far as you know did they have a proper qualified fire health and safety person who knew uh

02:54:37 health and safety person who knew uh knew the guidance um well they've always had their own dedicated health and safety advisor um michael lyons and then shannon mckinnis

02:54:46 mckinnis so i i didn't get involved in repairs direct but i i know that in terms of voids there was always um kind of a voids checklist of standards that they were trying to achieve and i

02:54:58 that they were trying to achieve and i had um put a lot of pressure them to make sure

02:55:01 make sure that in terms of the the door the door should be an fd30 um so you know fd30s is what i meant to say

02:55:09 say um and i believe that there to the best of my knowledge the voice checklist did um reflect that but in terms of of health and safety within the voids i i couldn't really comment sorry

02:55:20 i couldn't really comment sorry yes thank you mr chairman yeah uh reluctant as i am to point it out it is two minutes to one uh but we are going to move on to a different um

02:55:31 different um different set of facts within the same topic with some slightly different documents

02:55:35 documents that are probably best taken in one go i think you would wouldn't it yes right good thank you well we're going to have a break now ms ray said we can all have some lunch and we'll resume please at two o'clock

02:55:46 and we'll resume please at two o'clock okay and again i'm going to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the world all right thank you very much

02:56:04 thank you two o'clock peace

02:56:26 you