Cross-examination of TMO Health & Safety Manager Janice Wray about failures in fire risk assessments, PEEPs for vulnerable residents, and fire safety communication to tenants.
00:00:26 yes could you ask us ray to come back in please
00:00:41 right right yes are you ready to carry on yes
00:00:44 on yes good thank you very much yes mr millet mr chairman thank you miss ray um we looked
00:00:49 looked at the fra for grenfell tower dated december
00:00:52 december 2010 29th of december 2010. i now want to show you the uh the grenfell tower fras in the period 2012 to 2016 with a focus uh on uh uh peeps um can we start with
00:01:04 uh on uh uh peeps um can we start with the november 2012 uh fra please at cst403084
00:01:16 section 13 on page 20 please so i'm showing you the first page we now need to look at page 20 section 13 same section disabled people
00:01:27 section 13 same section disabled people same text if you look in the commentary box this time it says at the time of the risk assessment there was no evidence of any resident within the premises who suffers from sensory impairment to such a level that it would prevent them from hearing a
00:01:38 it would prevent them from hearing a shouted warning of fire and then these words or a loud knocking on their entrance door to warm them and then if you look a little bit lower down um it says
00:01:49 down um it says also that the use of the lifts if you go with the page uh over the page to 21 use of the lifts in the last line would be under the control of the fire
00:02:01 would be under the control of the fire service
00:02:03 service you see that now uh that's those are new words particularly loud knocking on the entrance doors to warn them
00:02:11 warn them uh can you explain why those words came in
00:02:15 in no sorry i can't did you ever ask carl stokes about why he thought it fit to add those words to what was otherwise a cut-and-paste standard version of comments to go into all these fras i
00:02:26 of comments to go into all these fras i may have done but i don't recall right uh well we can just take this quite quickly then skipping ahead to the october 2014 fra for grenfell tower cst403151
00:02:37 for grenfell tower cst403151 page 21 section 13.
00:02:46 we probably want page 20 for this no we don't we're still on it uh it's cst 403157
00:03:01 page 21.
00:03:06 section 13 disabled people middle of the page
00:03:11 page it says exactly the same thing as the 2012 fra doesn't it it seems to yes it seems to uh and uh again the 20th april 2016 fra
00:03:23 cst403161 page 22.
00:03:32 page 22. the same text again both in respect of the
00:03:36 the uh
00:03:40 you've got the same text but this time in the april version uh mr mr stakes has stopped at shouted warning of fire do you know why the sentence added in the 2012 fra about loud knocking has now
00:03:52 the 2012 fra about loud knocking has now been removed i don't know you don't did you ever ask him about these these oddities uh i don't recall doing so sorry
00:04:02 did you notice uh from time to time that the same information had been used again and again by carl stakes in section 13 of these fras um probably i did yes did you ever ask
00:04:14 um probably i did yes did you ever ask him about why he was just cutting and pasting from one to another
00:04:20 no i don't think i did did it ever never give you calls for concern
00:04:26 um i suppose the fact if if i didn't raise it with him then i must have not focused in on it were you not concerned that he might be using out of date information at least in this respect
00:04:41 i should have been i i honestly can't recall no
00:04:45 recall no were you concerned that he wasn't independently assessing the needs of disabled people and fire safety measures in place at the time of each assessment afresh
00:04:55 yeah in retrospect i yes should have should have highlighted that but not at the time
00:05:00 the time i can't specifically remember um right whether we discussed it or not sorry i just can't recall right do you recall whether if before or after his visit to carry out a fire risk
00:05:11 his visit to carry out a fire risk assessment mr stakes ever asked you for up to date information about disabled persons at grenfell tower
00:05:18 i don't recall him asking him in his second witness statement he tells us that he wasn't asked to review or consider the tp tracker at all that for the reference for that is cst 3030186 page 38
00:05:32 cst 3030186 page 38 paragraph 143 that's for our note i don't need to show it to you but is that correct
00:05:35 correct that he wasn't ever asked to review or consider the tp tracker he certainly wasn't asked to review it as as i think i said earlier that that would be confidential and and personal data and he wouldn't have
00:05:46 and personal data and he wouldn't have access to that he didn't ask for access and you didn't offer him access that's right now did you know that the tp tracker was discontinued in july 2013
00:05:58 discontinued in july 2013 um i do now um did you not know at the time well i wouldn't i wouldn't have known what what has managed what we're using to obtain information on vulnerabilities i knew they had various systems in place and i
00:06:10 they had various systems in place and i wouldn't have known the detail it wouldn't have necessarily been on my radar
00:06:15 radar i'm not sure i would have been made a way to aware of it well you say it wouldn't have been on your radar i i i'm slightly puzzled by that because
00:06:22 because um the need to identify vulnerable residents was part of your responsibility wasn't it as a competent person yeah i'm not disputing that what
00:06:33 person yeah i'm not disputing that what i'm saying is i wouldn't know what mechanism they were necessarily using right oh i see i see what you mean see but but if you didn't know that it had been discontinued in july 2013
00:06:44 july 2013 what was the basis of the information what was the database for that information and the system for collecting it after july 2013. i think that's the point i'm obviously not making very well um
00:06:56 not making very well um is is that i knew that they had systems in place they weren't always the same system
00:07:01 system i thought there had been lots of debate about whether there should be a tenancy audit there were there were different ways that they considered obtaining the information and i wasn't necessarily aware of which one was
00:07:13 one was being trialled or being put in place at any one time
00:07:18 did you ever make any inquiries yourself into the information that the tmo held elsewhere in its systems about disabled and vulnerable residents in grenfell tower between the dates 2010
00:07:30 in grenfell tower between the dates 2010 and 2017.
00:07:34 i'm not sure that i made specific um inquiries i i think i i believe that when i was reviewing the fire strategy i did try to
00:07:45 reviewing the fire strategy i did try to clarify what we had in place and what level of information we had stored from um my colleague david noble i think but not in relation to any specific block i don't think
00:08:00 and i think from your earlier evidence this morning you just but just confirm it's right isn't it that you never actually considered telling carl stakes that before he carried out each frame
00:08:12 carried out each frame or rather when you give gave him the list of fras to do you never told him about the number of vulnerable residents that the tmo had identified in those buildings i don't believe i did now
00:08:23 don't believe i did now and why is that it was clearly a major oversight um i can't give you any other explanation i'm sorry in the six and a half years
00:08:35 i'm sorry in the six and a half years between the 24th of september 2010 meeting and the granville tower fire do you remember whether you ever had a meeting with him to to to bring him up to date with the
00:08:47 to to to bring him up to date with the steps that you and the tmo were taking to identify the needs of disabled persons
00:08:50 persons or who they were um we we would have had discussions and i think meetings with regard to specific um specific actions that we were taking
00:09:01 um specific actions that we were taking in relation to hoarders in relation to people who installed security gates in front of their dwellings and delayed their
00:09:07 their rescue and our discussions with the fire brigade and a way forward on those specific aspects sort of though there were various ways we were trying to identify
00:09:16 identify that i could easily access um vulnerable people
00:09:20 people i would have talked to him about about those and perhaps a range of other things where we were putting in different sensory equipment um
00:09:29 but i yeah beyond that i can't i mean if you didn't tell carl stokes about any disabled resident in grenfell tower how were you going to ensure that the tmo complied with its obligations to
00:09:40 tmo complied with its obligations to identify
00:09:41 identify occupants especially at risk in the fire risk assessments that were going to be carried out um i just to go back to what i said this morning
00:09:50 morning what i was trying to do was to convey to my housing colleagues that they should refer people to me individual residents who may or may not have had difficulties or had concerns
00:10:01 have had difficulties or had concerns or wanted reassurance or any number of fire safety related concerns um and as and when they were those people were made
00:10:11 were made made known to me then we would make contact with them presumably the letter that you showed me this morning may have been may have been one of those
00:10:18 of those and how many of those individuals during that six and a half year period did you pass on to carl stokes i have no idea sorry um right
00:10:31 sorry um right he counted two peeps that he had been involved in preparing two yeah d have you can you give us any idea
00:10:38 idea of the number of individuals resident either in grenfell tower or generally across the stock that over the six and a half years you passed back to carl stakes for his consideration i can't give you what i can say is
00:10:51 i can't give you what i can say is is that a lot of the um conversations and dialogue and the activity that was going on did not result in peeps so there's quite a lot of
00:10:59 lot of of work going on that did not result in the production of a peep that didn't mean
00:11:03 mean that we weren't able to alleviate people's concerns and put in place things to
00:11:07 things to assist them to be alerted to a fire or to respond to a fire um so in terms of peeps there probably was not a lot of activity but uh i i feel sure there were
00:11:19 but uh i i feel sure there were occasions whenever i asked carl to visit an individual resident who had raised a concern
00:11:25 concern and plus adrian and myself are doing that also but i can't give you a volume
00:11:34 now carl stokes when one looks at all the other fras appears to have included exactly the same paragraph in each one that there were no disabled residents or there was no evidence of any disabled residents
00:11:46 any disabled residents in the fras for other properties other than the
00:11:49 than the other than grenfell tower so let me show you an example of this cst403
00:11:56 cst403 cst four zeros four three zero seven this is a dare tower fra of the 28th of october
00:12:05 october 2010 and if we look at page 15 bottom of page under disabled people same text same tick and look same text
00:12:18 same text same tick and look same text at the time of the risk assessment there was no evidence of any resident within the premises who suffers from a sensory impairment that would prevent them from hearing a shouted warning of fire and then again you see the now familiar text about the tp tracker system
00:12:30 text about the tp tracker system yeah and and then over the page this information is the additional information will be used to assess if residents may require additional devices
00:12:41 residents may require additional devices to provide them with early warning of smoke fire in the home and or development of a peep
00:12:47 and then if we look at tmo double zero eight five four nine three zero this is gilray house the fra dated 19th november 2012
00:12:58 november 2012 page 18.
00:13:05 but
00:13:09 same text again
00:13:16 he says again no evidence of any resident within the premises who suffers from a sensory impairment in fact did you know that carl stokes had prepared a pete for a residence of
00:13:27 had prepared a pete for a residence of gilray house on the 18th of october 2010. yes some two years before yes so did you check whether the resident of gilrey hosts for whom that pete gilray house for whom that peep had been
00:13:38 gilray house for whom that peep had been prepared two years prior was still living in the that building when the 2012 fra for it was completed um i know the resident in question it
00:13:49 um i know the resident in question it was her daughter and it related to um i know the resident was and i believe it remains there currently i know the daughter has since gone to university but i don't know what date she went so i i can't say definitively
00:14:01 she went so i i can't say definitively whether she was still there at that stage or not right did it not strike he was odd
00:14:04 was odd that mr stokes having done a peep one of two it appears for this resident of gilroy house two years prior was able to say in this fire risk assessment that there was no evidence of any resident within the premises who
00:14:16 any resident within the premises who suffers from sensory impairment etc
00:14:20 um yes i mean even if the particular impairments to that particular resident were nothing to do with
00:14:28 with an oral impediment hearing nonetheless it's odd isn't it that this this appears here did it not strike you as odd at the time it mustn't have done did you actually
00:14:40 it mustn't have done did you actually read these documents yes of course and if you've read it and paid attention to it would it not have struck you at the time that that was a peculiar sentence to put in um i can only think that at the time
00:14:54 um i can only think that at the time nobody had been brought to my attention either so there weren't particularly warning signs
00:15:02 in fact um if we go to uh cst405609
00:15:11 we can see that here is an email from you from you to carl stokes on the 18th of november 2013. so this is uh a a year after
00:15:22 so this is uh a a year after the gilray house 19th november 2012 fra and you say here and we need to go a third of the way down c uh three years
00:15:33 a third of the way down c uh three years ago you drafted a peep for mrs blank's daughter mrs blank seeking another copy of this no doubt she has her own agenda but before we provide could i ask you to make the following tweaks to this please
00:15:44 following tweaks to this please and then you make some amendments now it appears that the resident was still living in gilroy house at that time so that's after the fra it does so it would follow from that
00:15:56 so it would follow from that contemporaneous record that the fra for gilray house in november 2012 was factually incorrect to your certain knowledge when it says that there were no residents with known vulnerabilities in gilray house it would looking at that yes
00:16:09 house it would looking at that yes yeah but you never asked carl stakes to amend his fra or correct it in any way i don't recall doing
00:16:16 doing no and yes i should have done and
00:16:20 hazelwood tower let's look at one of those 20th of february 2014 at tm0100 43804
00:16:27 43804 page one please first to identify it page 20 to look at what i want to see section 13 the foot of your screen
00:16:39 section 13 the foot of your screen disabled people same text and now the same mantra like statement in the first part of the commentary box yes yes
00:16:48 yes yes and again cut and paste no change one size fits all as it as it appears that's it pearson martin house 21st of january 2016 at
00:16:59 martin house 21st of january 2016 at tm010045
00:17:02 tm0100471
00:17:06 page one to start with identify the document
00:17:09 document 21st of january 2016 and page 21 please
00:17:16 disabled people section 13 same text same tick box yes and same metric statement at the beginning of the commentary box yes yes and yet
00:17:29 yes yes and yet i thought mark lynch was the other location indeed uh and you're right about that uh mr stokes had prepared a peep for a resident of martin house on the 8th of march 2014 hadn't he
00:17:40 march 2014 hadn't he yes two years before this let's let's look at that that's cst three zeros two zero 20896
00:17:52 there it is
00:17:56 i don't think i need the detail for it my question is did mr stokes ask you if this resident was still living at markland house when he undertook his fra in january 2016 two years later
00:18:07 in january 2016 two years later i don't recall i'm asking again did you check if the resident was still living at martland house in uh march 20 uh january 2016. i don't recall doing that so it may be
00:18:18 i don't recall doing that so it may be that a resident of markland house may still have had a peep at the time of the fra and yet no mention was made of that by mr stokes in his fra it may have been yes finally let's look at one more trellic tower
00:18:29 let's look at one more trellic tower april 2017 26th of april 2017 i think the day before the fire there actually tmo double zero eight four two two five five
00:18:40 five page one please
00:18:45 there it is and on page uh 24 we need uh the same section section 13 disabled people
00:18:52 people same text same tick box commentary box that same paragraph although this time we've got the loud knocking again added on for no apparent reason at the
00:19:03 added on for no apparent reason at the end of that sentence can you explain why all of these fras that we've looked at do not record any vulnerable residents in those properties across the time period we've been looking at
00:19:14 been looking at despite the presence of at least two i can't
00:19:21 and can you explain why as we can see although i don't think i've shown you in each of them take it from me that these fras in this part
00:19:29 part still will continue to refer to the tp tracker even though its use was discontinued by the tmo as as long before as 2013. um only that he hadn't been updated
00:19:43 um only that he hadn't been updated um with whatever had superseded tp tracker it looks from this that carl stokes
00:19:48 stokes was not provided with any up-to-date information about the presence of vulnerable persons in any of these properties for which you did fras
00:19:57 on the face of it looks that way yeah even in respect of the two properties where we know that two persons that had peeps prepared for them indeed
00:20:11 how can you account for that state of affairs
00:20:15 i can only say what i have said before in that i was relying on my housing colleagues to refer people to me
00:20:25 to me so that i got the people who genuinely had concerns in relation to fire safety whatever they may be and when we received that information um we would investigate right interact with
00:20:38 we would investigate right interact with try and provide whatever is either reassurance or actually physical help ultimately if they needed a peep
00:20:45 a peep then people have been drafted but as i've already said we were constrained with not being able to provide any actual physical assistance however if that was what was required we would we would have endeavoured to try and work that through
00:20:56 and work that through we potentially would have involved the fire brigade um we we were doing that and um there was clearly a disconnect between
00:21:06 between the work that we were doing and that information going through to carl that i didn't pick up at the time and um in in addition it looks like the peeps that he had done
00:21:18 peeps that he had done just i can't give an explanation why if i'd if i'd been asked for information about whether those residents were still there then i would have provided it but i probably wouldn't have picked up on the need to do that
00:21:30 on the need to do that unless i was prompted did you come to an agreement with carl stakes not to record disabled persons in his fras no i did not could you come to an agreement with car states not to assess the needs
00:21:41 the needs for all disabled and vulnerable residents in high-rise blocks no i didn't
00:21:48 [Applause]
00:21:56 now [Applause] i want to look at the
00:22:09 i want to look at the question of how peeps were covered in the fire
00:22:13 the fire safety policies and strategies if we can can we look please at your november 2013 fire safety strategy tmo double zero eight three zero five
00:22:24 tmo double zero eight three zero five nine eight we've seen this more than a number of times now but there are so many parts of it we need to look at this time we need to go to page 13.
00:22:33 13. sorry 14 page 14. at paragraph 24.1 five procedures and we looked at this together briefly before let's just revisit it uh it's it it
00:22:45 let's just revisit it uh it's it it covers staff doesn't it staff who are not fully able-bodied it does yes it doesn't refer to residents does it um it doesn't refer at this stage now at this stage
00:22:57 this stage we know that we know that the safety strategy was never updated or amended to covered residents i meant at this point in the document but um
00:23:06 but um i'm sorry quite right it's fine um but you may well be right okay i mean do you think that peeps for residence is covered anywhere else in this document i don't know it's a 2013
00:23:18 this document i don't know it's a 2013 document
00:23:18 document i'm just commenting on the bit that you're showing me um do you know why there's no reference in this fire safety strategy which was the operative governing strategy as at the
00:23:31 operative governing strategy as at the date of the grenfell tower of fire to peeps for residents i don't only staff no i i don't because as you say
00:23:43 no i i don't because as you say small amount of evidence but there is evidence that we have done them and we would be willing to do them and we we were actively investigating residents concerns and queries which may or may not result in a peep
00:23:54 which may or may not result in a peep but it hopefully would alleviate concerns
00:23:56 concerns so yeah that then that's that should be included
00:24:00 included well yes let's go to page 16. two pages on uh okay now in fact that's
00:24:11 okay now in fact that's not what i want um i'm so sorry this is my fault i'd like to show you uh the 2017 fire safety strategy which was adopted the day before the fire uh i think um if you go to tm00847324
00:24:28 we've been looking at the 2013 version but paragraph 24.1 now we want the 2017 version and if you look at 25.1 on page 15
00:24:39 look at 25.1 on page 15 the text is very similar to the 2013 version isn't it yes for staff who are not fully able-bodied in the immediate assistance etc you see that yes now again can you tell us why during
00:24:53 yes now again can you tell us why during the period between 2013 and 2017 no thought was given it appears to amending the 2013 strategy so as to provide for peeps for residents as opposed to or as well
00:25:04 for residents as opposed to or as well as
00:25:04 as staff i can't clearly it should have been amended but having said that it probably should have been amended more frequently than it than it was yes and if we go to page 16
00:25:16 yes and if we go to page 16 of this document
00:25:20 paragraph 28. yes thank you uh we need page 16
00:25:33 yes thank you uh we need page 16 that's it 28 hoarders and vulnerable residents you can see the heading yeah and if you go to paragraph 28.3 it says
00:25:41 says efforts are made to capture information about residents vulnerability at sign up as part of routine neighborhood management work tenancy auditing process tenancy profiling process and as part of our regular ongoing
00:25:52 and as part of our regular ongoing contact with residents this information is used to offer the resident a service which better meets their needs and this includes fire safety residents with sensory impairment will be offered the appropriate detection
00:26:03 appropriate detection etc now does that accurately summarize the system the system for recording residents vulnerability at least as at the date of this policy
00:26:14 at least as at the date of this policy i'm
00:26:14 i'm confident that that would have been um that quote vulnerability at sign up and the associated text would have been given to me by neighborhood housing management
00:26:25 neighborhood housing management colleagues so i think it will have done and how was that information captured to use the word in the text used to meet residents needs in relation
00:26:36 used to meet residents needs in relation to fire safety
00:26:42 as we said it's captured it's located wherever it's located and the neighborhood team have access to their information and regular contact with
00:26:51 with their residents and escalate it to um the health and safety team and where was that information kept was i i i don't know at that stage
00:27:03 was i i i don't know at that stage sorry i wouldn't as before i wouldn't have had access to it it would have come to me from the team with the permission of the resident sorry
00:27:11 sorry was it kept up to date after sign up um i i don't know the answer to that that that would the information is owned by housing management um i i'm assuming that that i can only
00:27:24 i i'm assuming that that i can only assume that there were processes in place to keep it updated i'm sure it would have been an ongoing challenge but i don't know i can't answer that sorry do you know why there's no link between
00:27:35 do you know why there's no link between the contents of paragraph 28 3 and the reference to the capturing of information there and the preparation of peeps um there definitely should be i think
00:27:47 um there definitely should be i think clearly when i put it together i've linked it to the hoarders and and not directly to the to the peeps right can we go to tm010024402 please
00:28:07 this is the uh this is the tmo health and safety policy from february 2016 signed by robert black
00:28:17 black and as you can see from it the only reference to peeps in here that we see is at
00:28:21 is at page six
00:28:26 if we go to page six uh you can see under section 10 10.3 employees with disabilities have their own individual personal emergency evacuation plan
00:28:37 evacuation plan which is regularly reviewed and where necessary their colleagues are trained in the safe use of the evacuation chair did you have input i think you did didn't you into the drafting of this yes policy why when you drafted that did you not make the connection
00:28:49 you not make the connection between having employees having their own peace
00:28:53 own peace but residents not um is there not a separate section in terms of resident safety and does that not cover it
00:29:01 cover it sorry because i look at most of this looks like it's um related to occupational locations i i can't remember how i put it together we would often have tried to differentiate the sections that relate
00:29:12 differentiate the sections that relate to resident safety and and to employee safety but i believe well uh well uh you ask me we i can scroll down through it but there doesn't appear to be a distinction
00:29:23 appear to be a distinction at least on the face of the document between uh residents on the one hand and employees on the other okay well then in which case that that's an error that should be the thrust of this document is the rra obligations in the workplace and
00:29:35 obligations in the workplace and protecting tmo employees isn't it i mean you can scroll down it please and have a look at it and refresh your memory i mean it's a health and safety policy statement it's an organizational health intensive policy statement so in the first instance it's very much
00:29:47 so in the first instance it's very much um
00:29:48 um about the organization but obviously in our case that extends to to the residents but it probably doesn't have significant detail about residents but just captures the main aspect of risk potentially this is a
00:29:59 aspect of risk potentially this is a february 2016
00:30:06 document yes before i leave this document can i just show you on page six that paragraph 10.1 there is a reference to fras
00:30:15 to fras in communal areas of residential blocks right
00:30:19 right that's a that is a reference to that say you might say that that is where residents are catered for or at least referred to um well i suppose what i'm saying is it's it's sort of
00:30:32 saying is it's it's sort of um employers are required to have this document it's it's initially it's largely aimed at the organization and the arrangements for health and safety in an organization so obviously because our purpose was
00:30:45 so obviously because our purpose was was to house residents and protect them and there is reference to residents as well but it was focused on employees so it doesn't have the level of detail that you would necessarily expect now um can we go to tmo double zero
00:30:57 now um can we go to tmo double zero eight four zero seven five three
00:31:06 this is uh a minute of the health and safety committee meeting uh of the 13th of september uh 2016. i think we looked at it yesterday if we
00:31:17 i think we looked at it yesterday if we go to page five in this document and we could see you were present from page one on page five it says under a agenda item six
00:31:24 six review of the safety policy and strategy bm thanked all those bm thanked all who had provided comments on this policy the committee reviewed the comments received and jw agreed to update so the
00:31:36 received and jw agreed to update so the reviewed draft could be presented to the next meeting specifically the following amendments were agreed and then you can see the first one discussion around
00:31:45 around identifying vulnerable individuals strategy to reflect new policy on vulnerability this is this right this was a discussion about the draft fire safety strategy
00:31:56 safety strategy at that time yes yes uh what was the discussion around identifying vulnerable individuals um i suspect it it was what led to the
00:32:08 um i suspect it it was what led to the text
00:32:09 text that eventually went into the updated draft that um i'm sorry i can't recall whether theresa brown was at this meeting but if she wasn't she presumably would have had a deputy
00:32:19 deputy i think it would have been her clarifying how housing management now obtain that information do you know whether this was a reference to residents or to tma employees this would have been about residents definitely why'd you say
00:32:31 residents definitely why'd you say why are you so sure about that um discussion around identifying vulnerable individuals and the policy my understanding is yeah no
00:32:41 no i don't have any doubt it would definitely be residents right um because because
00:32:45 because sorry just to add that in terms of staff line managers would have a responsibility for identifying any needs of their staff and so it would be an hr route rather than a health safety committee necessarily i i see
00:32:56 committee necessarily i i see um can you help me what was the new policy on vulnerability i can't help you sorry i don't know the detail um
00:33:04 detail um do you remember whether it was a document that was drafted by david noble in april 2016 called supporting residents
00:33:13 residents it could be i sorry i don't know right david noble told us that that was what was discussed but you can't help is that right
00:33:22 right um sorry david noble didn't sit on this committee did he he drafted something called the supporting residence policy yeah he may well have done sorry i thought you were talking
00:33:30 talking i thought you were referring to the comment here about the discussion on policy and vulnerability was there an agreement for the fire safety strategy to reflect the new policy on vulnerability whatever
00:33:42 the new policy on vulnerability whatever that was
00:33:43 that was um that seems to be what it says here doesn't it right
00:33:48 now if we go to tmo double zero eight six five eight three four we look later on in the same year 2016. this is an email from you to david noble the foot of page
00:34:01 from you to david noble the foot of page one going over to page two you see the very foot of page one it's from you to david naval 7th of december 2016.
00:34:08 2016. and if you go to the top of page two you say hi david i'm reviewing our fire policy
00:34:13 policy and as part of the discussions with the hms committee there have been some questions
00:34:17 questions about data on vulnerability how is that how is this captured where is it stored how reliable is it are you able to advise please and on page one if you scroll up please to that
00:34:26 that you can see david noble's response on the same day and he explains how the data was captured uh in the first part of his email there and then in the pronunciate paragraph he says
00:34:36 says we have a new supporting people policy that i wrote a while back i've handed it over to tom now but it is live
00:34:43 live though we need to do more work on publicizing it now was that the first time that you had tried to find out tmo data on vulnerable residents
00:34:55 residents um certainly since the committee when we'd had that discussion so i was obviously trying to get some details so that they knew that what i was going to put into the draft for our strategy right the committee meeting was
00:35:06 right the committee meeting was on the 13th of september 2016 and this is 7th of
00:35:09 is 7th of december 2016. why had you left it between
00:35:12 between september and december to ask the question i can't give you an answer to that right had you seen the supporting people or vulnerability policy whichever you call it by that date i don't believe i had no
00:35:23 don't believe i had no right is this an email the first time you became aware of the fact that dave noble had produced a supporting people
00:35:30 people policy um although there was one i honestly don't know this stage i honestly don't know
00:35:43 what was it that uh led to this question what was it about the fire policy particularly that led you to ask this question
00:35:51 question about data on vulnerability
00:35:55 with the minute that you just showed me was was colleagues um recommending that any changes to the fire strategy reflect the vulnerability policy which i
00:36:06 reflect the vulnerability policy which i didn't know anything about it hadn't i think at that stage being shared with me so i appreciate there's been a delay but i've clearly got it in my mind that i need to find out some more detail about what that involves did
00:36:18 more detail about what that involves did you did he send you or did you ask him to send you the supporting people policy i can't recall he said he's handed it to tom but it's live did you go and look at it i can't recall
00:36:30 did you go and look at it i can't recall right
00:36:31 right did you ask david noble to share the information on how many individuals were recorded as vulnerable in the tmo stock i don't remember right were you satisfied by his answer
00:36:43 right were you satisfied by his answer to your question
00:36:46 um you asked him how is it captured where's it stored how reliable is it
00:36:52 and he's answered you were you satisfied by his answer well it's it's not comprehensive is it but it gives me a flavor of it gives me a steer of what's happening um and at least i have a better
00:37:03 um and at least i have a better understanding of what housing management are doing to to obtain the information let's look at the document to which he's referring the supporting people policy this is a tmo double zero eight eight
00:37:14 this is a tmo double zero eight eight zero
00:37:14 zero four eight one
00:37:24 uh you can see at the very top of the document that has got an operational date of 20 april 2016 author david noble this is version one it's entitled supporting residence
00:37:35 it's entitled supporting residence policy
00:37:37 policy and you can see the third paragraph there the supporting residence policy is designed to ensure that we identify those residents who may need additional support record what support is needed
00:37:49 support record what support is needed deliver it where we can and to help ensure that the work with any relevant agencies and make referrals to them when necessary
00:37:55 necessary it also aims to make sure that in an emergency relevant residence needs a prioritize wherever possible this document sets out the key aims and responsibilities to enable this to happen
00:38:04 happen this policy is supported by a procedure that sets out in greater deal the steps to be taken um did you see this document either in april 2016 or in september 2016 or in
00:38:17 april 2016 or in september 2016 or in december 2016.
00:38:20 um i clearly hadn't seen it in april 16 or september 16 um and i i don't know if he sent me a copy i imagine that he would have done when i contacted him in december
00:38:32 when i contacted him in december but it looks like at that point in time i hadn't known about it in detail right did you ever thereafter that his after december 16 uh see this document
00:38:43 can't recall right um how long is it how many pages is it uh it is four pages um no sorry i i really can't recall i i
00:38:54 um no sorry i i really can't recall i i may have done well we can scroll i mean i don't want to
00:38:58 keep it from you we can scroll down let's do that let's look at the bottom of page one there's a definition uh where there's no one agreed definition
00:39:09 where there's no one agreed definition and there's an attempt to the definition on page two there's a list of vulnerabilities and potential solutions aims and then on page three
00:39:20 page three identification and referral it doesn't ring a bell actually it doesn't no gosh right and can you can you explain why you as head of health and safety did not see this document
00:39:31 this document i can't no
00:39:35 uh now i've shown you and read you the third paragraph on page one if we can just go back to that please uh if
00:39:46 uh if if you hadn't read it i suppose this question may not cut much ice but do you agree that it's identifying the fact that residents might need additional support in the context of fire safety indeed yes
00:39:59 in the context of fire safety indeed yes do you know why there's no reference anywhere in this document otherwise to fire safety no no which is why i don't think i saw it no there's a procedure that goes with it
00:40:10 there's a procedure that goes with it i could probably take this quite quickly given your answers tmo-00880-482
00:40:20 supporting residence procedure have you ever seen this document before it doesn't really well right how can you account for that you can't i mean there's no reference to
00:40:33 you can't i mean there's no reference to fire safety no reference to referring residents for peeps no reference to how the information gathered under the procedure might be used to generate a peep
00:40:41 peep can you account for that no was there any published guidance for tma staff across the board to identify and address the fire safety needs of vulnerable residents
00:40:52 vulnerable residents any published guidance to that effect
00:41:01 i don't actually know as i'm sat here i can't think for sure that there was published guidance which clearly there should have been but i know that i would have regularly discussed it with housing management teams
00:41:13 management teams um in their team meetings and and with their managers right and similarly no guidance no standing guidance procedure protocol for tma staff to identify and refer
00:41:25 tma staff to identify and refer residents in general needs housing for peeps
00:41:28 peeps no not formally not now i want to ask you about your personal
00:41:38 personal knowledge of vulnerable residents within grenfell tower i'm going to show you an email run at lfb401057
00:41:47 lfb401057 this is an email exchange in february 2016
00:42:01 and it is uh at the bottom of page two if you can see uh the email there from charles batterby to you
00:42:12 batterby to you dated the fourth of february 2016. and he says this dear janice i'm emailing to ask if you hold any information on the resident of 83 grenfell tower whilst carrying out a group risk visit
00:42:23 whilst carrying out a group risk visit to the block to offer residents a home fire safety visit our crews spoke to a gentleman at to the door of this address that the gentleman is blind and did not want
00:42:34 the gentleman is blind and did not want to give us any details and as a result we were unable to gain access i believe if we are able to contact him prior to the visit
00:42:42 the visit this would reassure him of who we are our main concern is that there appeared to be tin foil i think covering up the smoke alarm in the flat which would compromise its operation and its effectiveness please contact me if
00:42:53 its effectiveness please contact me if you need any more information to support this request thank you
00:42:59 thank you yeah now let's just reflect on this charles batterby will be known to us as crew manager better be the first firefighter from the first crew in attendance from g271
00:43:10 g271 to enter the tower at 0-101 on the morning of the 14th of june uh this particular individual who is blind was el pidio bonifacio known to us as the last occupant of the tower to be rescued
00:43:22 tower to be rescued leaving the building at 807 and 20 seconds
00:43:25 seconds um there is a there is therefore historical importance in this document at least for those reasons but let's just see how the story unfolds if we go up in the chain you can see
00:43:38 in the chain you can see in the next email in the chain that is siobhan rumble responds and says good morning charles the tenants of 83 grenfell tower are mr bonifacio and ms fernandez and their telephone number
00:43:50 fernandez and their telephone number is and it's their redacted let me know if you need anything further and then if we look further up page two we can see that you respond or or enter
00:44:02 we can see that you respond or or enter the discussion i think we need the bottom of page one for the start of the email run 10th of february 2016. you to charles batterby hi charlie would you be able to advise on what date you visited grenfell
00:44:14 advise on what date you visited grenfell tower
00:44:15 tower to undertake the group risk visit you mentioned belay please advise uh and then charles battery comes back to you and
00:44:26 charles battery comes back to you and says we go up a little bit further uh 13th of february hi janice we visited grenfell tower 2nd of february 2016 carried out home safety visits the green watch tried to contact mr bonifacio and mrs
00:44:38 tried to contact mr bonifacio and mrs fernandez by telephone they also knocked on the door of number 83 the following day whilst at grenfell tower however no answer on both occasions and your response next day thanks that's very helpful now would a
00:44:49 thanks that's very helpful now would a peep
00:44:50 peep have been considered appropriate for a resident who was blind certainly needed further investigations it may have required a peep it may have required some other means of um assisting or alerting or it
00:45:03 means of um assisting or alerting or it would need further investigation we could see from this email exchange that both you and siobhan rumble were involved in it yes did you consider whether to contact mr bonifacio to offer him an assessment
00:45:14 mr bonifacio to offer him an assessment for a peep
00:45:17 i should have done do you know why you didn't i don't know why i didn't now as i've shown you charles batterby told you that the lfb had been unable to contact mr bonifacio again
00:45:28 contact mr bonifacio again did you ask siobhan rumble or anybody else
00:45:32 else to follow up with mr bonifacio
00:45:36 i can't recall doesn't look like it i can't recall sorry let's look at another exchange about a vulnerable zero eight six one zero one three
00:45:55 uh yes uh and at the bottom of page one there's an email from you to nicola bartholomy on the 19th of october 2016.
00:46:07 october 2016. if we go to page two we can see you say hi nikki further to our communications about impending lfb audit of baron walk and also grenfell tower i instructed our fire risk assessor to
00:46:18 instructed our fire risk assessor to inspect both blocks yesterday and advise of any issues that require urgent attention he's agreed to provide me with a written report on each inspection detailing any potential concerns
00:46:27 concerns i should be in receipt of this tomorrow however the assessor has advised that there was a mobility scooter parked in the communal lobby outside flat 9 and this was being charged through the letterbox of the flat at the time of his visit
00:46:38 visit paul has never made me aware of this were you aware did the residents seek permission to have a scooter in this area
00:46:43 area and had we informed them of the ban on charging in the communal areas now we we've seen that in fact carl stakes had indeed written to you and photographed the mobility scooter outside flat9
00:46:56 mobility scooter outside flat9 and being quite strict with you about it did you follow up with nicola bartholomew about the outcome of the discussion with the tenant from flatnine yes and my recollection is that i think it was robert regan
00:47:10 is that i think it was robert regan the esa went and spoke to the lady um at length and explained um the issue with scooters and communal areas and charging
00:47:19 charging and my recollection is it got then it was referred to millicent williams who was the housing officer who was
00:47:28 was liaising directly with the resident and at that point they as i think where it got to was they were investigating whether the scooter could
00:47:39 investigating whether the scooter could be stored and charged on the ground floor in the hub room so at that stage from the information i've got
00:47:45 i've got the the resident is still able to come and go from the ground floor without the use of the scooter
00:47:54 well my question is would the fact that a resident has a mobility scooter not be a clear indication that they might need an assessment for a peep yeah they might do yeah did you yourself
00:48:05 yeah they might do yeah did you yourself or to your knowledge uh uh nicola bartholomew or millicent williams investigate whether or not the occupant with the mobility scooter needed
00:48:14 needed an assessment for a peep well it was kind of all tied up together that that the
00:48:19 the illicit and robert had spoken to the lady and were investigating whether there was she had the capacity for the storage and charging to be downstairs so that linked to how whether she could come and
00:48:30 linked to how whether she could come and go to the premises without the use of the scooter that was what we were trying to establish at that stage what did you establish well with the last time i was i i believe that's where we got to
00:48:42 i i believe that's where we got to that i was led to believe that she could come and go and they were looking at the arrangements of whether that could be stored in that location right you never got as far as the discussion for a peep and so far as you know nobody else did either no believe
00:48:53 know nobody else did either no believe not
00:48:53 not right uh
00:48:57 right uh 2017 let's move to that yeah can we look please at
00:49:01 please at nine four nine zero this is an email exchange
00:49:10 uh in march 2017 between you and daniel wood
00:49:14 wood within the tmo and it's about block management and if we go to page three we can see that daniel would wrote to you on the 8th of march 2017 and he says hi
00:49:25 on the 8th of march 2017 and he says hi janice i'm working on an opportunity that may result in us taking on the management of blocks outside the existing
00:49:30 existing stock etc
00:49:33 stock etc and he goes on to say i'm currently preparing a board report and will need to include something around hns and fras can you let me have a bit of narrative please in terms of what the standard
00:49:44 please in terms of what the standard requirements would be for managing a new block of say 40 units and if you go to page one of that email run we can see that you
00:49:52 that you respond to him and you set out at quite some length the key provisions necessary for health and safety and fire safety and if you look down we'll need to
00:50:04 and if you look down we'll need to scroll down to the last bullet point on that page but if you do you can see there that you say this as residents are 60 plus then it's possible that their physical ability may decline and they may struggle to self-evacuate
00:50:15 and they may struggle to self-evacuate if this becomes the case we should draft an individual personal emergency evacuation plan peep so clarify
00:50:22 clarify how this can be managed and any assistance that we are able to provide now you suggest there that you would need to draft peeps for residents who are older than 60 and who struggle to self-evacuate that
00:50:33 and who struggle to self-evacuate that that does what you you do that's how i read that yep but i think that related to the block that he was asking for information on right to say fair enough but did does this tell us that you did understand
00:50:44 this tell us that you did understand that
00:50:44 that peeps should be prepared for residence in sunset some circumstances at least yes yes but nonetheless you took no steps to prepare peeps in existing properties by uh managed by
00:50:55 in existing properties by uh managed by the tmo did you
00:50:58 no i don't think that's a fair reflection right we we had a small number of peeps and we gave assistance and sensory kit
00:51:10 and we gave assistance and sensory kit and we worked hard with the hoarders and and there was there were things going on but we weren't producing volumes of peeps and as i've outlined before we would have been constrained
00:51:21 been constrained by what assistance we could provide from within the staff cohort and that that would have impacted on what we could do but that would not have stopped us preparing them no i mean well my point is really i'm
00:51:33 no i mean well my point is really i'm just asking you to accept that at this point march 17 you understood that where there was a resident of a block that might struggle to self-evacuate because of
00:51:44 struggle to self-evacuate because of their physical abilities at the very least an individual personal emergency evacuation plan needed to be drafted for them not in every case but yeah but yes i've
00:51:56 not in every case but yeah but yes i've not disputed that there are occasions when that they will be required and i think when i've referred to it in paperwork that's what i said that peeps will be pro will be prepared if that's required there may be other interim measures or
00:52:08 measures or other steps that are necessary which actually
00:52:11 actually deal with the issue or enable people to self-evacuate maybe they just need assistance with alarms or whatever there are
00:52:18 are there's a whole range of vulnerabilities and there's a whole range of responses so it would have to be on an individual basis
00:52:25 basis now i want to ask you about a different topic which is fire safety information given to
00:52:30 given to residents can we start please by looking at your first witness statement at page 53 paragraph 245.
00:52:46 paragraph 245. uh and you say there under the heading fire advice given to residents between 2012
00:52:51 2012 and june 14th june 2017 fire risk assessments were available to residents on request however requests of this nature were uncommon this could have been because we had a number of other systems in place
00:53:03 had a number of other systems in place for keeping residents informed on fire safety matters which i've endeavoured to outline below now just just pausing there was it made known to tenants that there were
00:53:14 known to tenants that there were fire risk assessments for their buildings um i am confident that we when we um wrote articles for the link and
00:53:25 wrote articles for the link and i can certainly recall writing them where we said a fire risk assessment does exist for your building it's reviewed on a regular basis um i'm pretty sure we'd have offered them but people did approach me for them
00:53:36 them but people did approach me for them and we would have routinely provided
00:53:43 them yes and i think it's right to say that your website contained reference to fras and the resident's right to ask them yes that's right isn't it yes i believe so and i'm sorry just to add that
00:53:54 and i'm sorry just to add that there were times when we routinely provided them uh when people were doing a right to buy or were were selling a leasehold property they were routinely requested there were other circumstances but those are the ones that come to mind yes
00:54:05 are the ones that come to mind yes presumably for mortgages or banks or insurance yeah and also asbestos details and all of all of that kind of information and also there were some probably some residents associations who were
00:54:16 associations who were mindful of of them being carried out and would sometimes request them so from your perspective an fra was to all intents and purposes of public document yes to be read by a an
00:54:29 yes to be read by a an innumerable range of people yeah i i would have made them widely available and mr stakes knew that too did he um
00:54:41 and mr stakes knew that too did he um that yeah as far as seeing you then yeah i mean i i know he he puts that comment at the front that i don't really hold with but anyway um but yes he knew that um
00:54:53 um but yes he knew that um i mean there were our documents he we commissioned him to produce them in relation to our location so it's up to us what we did with them just picking up on on that answer you say there was a comment at the front of
00:55:04 say there was a comment at the front of it you didn't really hold this was that the bit about not showing the fra to the london fabric yes we were always going to give the fire brigade any any information that they wanted and we always did um so i i'm sure we had a conversation
00:55:17 um so i i'm sure we had a conversation about that but he he felt that that was an accurate interpretation of the legislation so i let it right you never discussed uh whether it was appropriate to put that in his fra
00:55:29 appropriate to put that in his fra or not with him well yes sorry that's what i was just saying i would have discussed it with him and said actually is this right do we need to have this here because you know we're going to provide these to um no no he was absolutely convinced
00:55:41 um no no he was absolutely convinced that this was the proper interpretation of the legislation and therefore it needed to stay in all right okay um going back to your statement paragraph 246 each new tenant receives a letter from tma signed by myself and issued by
00:55:52 from tma signed by myself and issued by either the voids officer or the neighborhood team advising them of the fire procedure and encouraging them to raise any concerns they had with us included in this letter was a copy of the of an nfb leaflet on home
00:56:05 the of an nfb leaflet on home fire safety visits which encouraged them to take up a free independent home fire safe to visit from the lfb we provided fire safety information to new and existing tenants and lease holders on our website and through letters
00:56:16 letters furthermore regular fire safety information was included in the tma's quarterly magazine link which was hand delivered to all properties by a third party company our safety articles were also frequently included in home ownership news
00:56:27 included in home ownership news which is a regular newsletter for leaseholders and then you say historically all of our written communications with residents about fire safety advice were provided only in english however we
00:56:38 were provided only in english however we would always have had a communication translated if a resident requested this of us we expected residents to read the information provided and alert us if they were unable to who was responsible for ensuring that fire
00:56:50 responsible for ensuring that fire safety advice was provided in the letters to new and existing tenants
00:56:55 tenants um i produced the letter you produced it who was responsible for ensuring it that it was in there was that you uh no the it was it was given to
00:57:05 given to most of the time the sign ups were done by
00:57:09 by i think i think my colleague was called a void officer so i gave her electronically a copy of the letter and used to restock her supplies of home fire safety leaflets as and when she
00:57:21 fire safety leaflets as and when she required them so i produced a letter but she would um she had there was a pack of information that people got whenever they were they were taking up a tenancy and it was incorporated into that i believe
00:57:33 incorporated into that i believe right who was responsible for ensuring that fire safety advice was provided on the website was that you as well
00:57:40 as well uh probably well it would be my text i would have just given somebody the text and they'd be responsible for uploading it i see what about home what about link and home ownership magazines uh again they'd have been
00:57:51 been my information right given to other people and the other thing that actually i realized that probably missed was the resident's handbook um and also we would have done regular newsletters um to our specialized housing residents as
00:58:04 to our specialized housing residents as well with
00:58:05 well with um this information to what extent was your
00:58:08 your um approach to disseminating fire safety advice to residents informed by the lga guide after the summer of 2011 at the least uh yeah reasonably reasonably yes what does that
00:58:20 reasonably reasonably yes what does that mean
00:58:21 mean um well that means i would have read it and um but also actually just just sort of a bit of context to go to go back i think um when we had salvas um one of the recommendations was
00:58:32 recommendations was that we do a letter to everybody in all in the stock um to get them to confirm that they understood um their their fire arrangements and
00:58:43 um their their fire arrangements and i discussed that with my then line manager lorna pemberton and our my communications colleague and they said
00:58:49 said that actually their experience was that a letter to all the residents wasn't the most effective way of communicating with the residents and that they recommended that we use the link which also had
00:59:01 link which also had the translation information on the rear cover
00:59:04 cover so i went back to andy fernes and suggested that i do that instead and he said that was equivalent so certainly going back to 2009 that was um
00:59:12 um the kind of thing we were doing did you ever carry out a review of whether the means that you were using to communicate fire safety advice was sufficient or appropriate um not a review as such we were
00:59:24 um not a review as such we were constantly looking at what other options were available we thought about preparing a dvd we asked other colleagues across the sector what they were doing um
00:59:36 they were doing um and there was there wasn't anything widely different to what we were doing that seemed to be absolutely the way to go
00:59:44 go now you refer to the resident's handbook yes just now it's not in your in your witness statement is that an oversight yes it must have been uh right uh now do you remember
00:59:55 uh right uh now do you remember referring to the um tenants handbook at your meeting with carl stokes on the 24th of september 2010 i i may have done you read done
01:00:04 read done his letter refers to it let's look at it cst403061
01:00:09 cst403061 page two and this is under the heading fire and emergency information for residents
01:00:16 residents oh no that's not it cst403061
01:00:25 uh page two fire emergency information for residents as you can see in the middle of your screen and it says uh prior to moving into their flat all residents are issued with a handbook
01:00:36 all residents are issued with a handbook which includes appropriate fire safety advice and information in accordance with the advice in the hm government's sleeping risk guide section 7.2
01:00:44 7.2 and you'll remember what we looked at this morning yes and that was it and he goes on the residents are given a tour of the building by a housing officer
01:00:52 officer the resident does not sign for the handbook or to say that they have received this information but it is part and parcel of the resident's moving in program and that's what he said there did you give
01:01:04 that's what he said there did you give him that information he must have done yes i must have done and um i was regularly asked to review and update the health and safety and the fire safety information in the residence handbook and in
01:01:15 in the residence handbook and in preparing to come here i can see it got reviewed again in um it was either 2010 or 2011. so to the best of my knowledge um that
01:01:26 so to the best of my knowledge um that was being issued to new residents to to supplement the the other right in place can we go to cst five zero sorry four zero two seven zero one
01:01:36 one this is the second letter of the 27th of september 2010 we haven't looked at this yet
01:01:41 yet okay uh he sent you two on that date and the subject is fire safety signage in residential buildings uh if we go to page seven in that uh
01:01:52 uh if we go to page seven in that uh nine page letter you can see that uh
01:02:00 uh he says under fire notices there the last paragraph i therefore concur that as tma supplies information to the residents in a variety of
01:02:11 to the residents in a variety of different ways newsletters residence meetings and articles in the link magazine etc fire action notices are not required to be displayed in the residential buildings
01:02:20 buildings if contractors were employees in the building they will know the evacuation procedures etc because of their induction and fire training it gives an exact an example of a fire action notice did you show carl stokes the resident's
01:02:32 did you show carl stokes the resident's handbook at your meeting of the 24th of september 2010. the reason i ask is he doesn't seem to refer to it in there um i actually don't recall if i did or i
01:02:43 um i actually don't recall if i did or i didn't
01:02:43 didn't i i would uh feel confident that i would have shown him at least the health and safety and the fire safety information whether it just be my version that i'd sent through to my colleague
01:02:55 sent through to my colleague but i i don't recall well let's look at a handbook iws four zero one seven six two
01:03:11 if we look at page two please this is exhibit mr6 and mr is mohammed razul who was a resident of grenfell tower who was
01:03:22 a resident of grenfell tower who was helpfully given evidence to this inquiry this is his tenancy handbook
01:03:27 handbook and as you can see from the first page although it's not particularly big bottom right hand corner its publication date is is 2004. if we go to page 21 in this document
01:03:40 if we go to page 21 in this document you can see that uh on that page
01:03:49 uh in the first part of that page living in a flat or masonette on the right-hand side last bullet point there's a reference to fire doors these must be kept clear of obstructions
01:04:01 these must be kept clear of obstructions it must be closed at all times never wedge them open for any reason um it looks from our review of this document that that is the only reference to fire
01:04:10 to fire safety in it um that doesn't roof as i say in preparing to come i i find my email
01:04:18 my email with my updated information which went back to the policy team in either 2010 or 2011 which had a substantial amount more health and safety and for our safety
01:04:30 health and safety and for our safety information so you say this was updated was it that's what my understanding was yes right how often
01:04:37 often uh was the tenant's handbook updated so far as health and safety matters and fire safety in particular were concerned um
01:04:43 um it because just because of the the um
01:04:48 sorry it was a hard copy document so when they were reviewing it they would review the whole document so it wasn't possible to review individual sections it was kind of all or nothing which is which is why when they were
01:05:00 which is which is why when they were when policy colleagues were reviewing it they would write to everybody who had contributed said here is the text that we are we're we're working to at the moment what do you want to change and and i
01:05:11 what do you want to change and and i would invariably have reviewed and potentially updated but yeah there was substantially more than than this so can you help me with with something then when carl stokes referred to the
01:05:22 when carl stokes referred to the tenant's handbook in his first letter of the 27th of september 2010 and said that residents were provided with fire safety advice about evacuation procedures which tenants handbook was that it's clearly not this one it
01:05:33 was that it's clearly not this one it doesn't seem to be this one um i didn't i didn't produce it but i i i know it was fairly regularly um update it was my understanding that it was fairly regularly updated because
01:05:44 it was fairly regularly updated because i was
01:05:45 i was periodically asked for my to comment on my sections um so i
01:05:52 um so i really think there must have been at least one update since then right you haven't exhibited it or or i i don't i never sort of kept a hard copy i really only had my text um so sorry i'm but
01:06:06 um so sorry i'm but but yeah this is this looks really old information right uh now let's go to 2009 then uh tm01 triple zero
01:06:17 uh tm01 triple zero sorry one four zeros three six eight tmo one
01:06:21 one four zeros three six eight this is the minute of a health and safety committee meeting of the 19th of may 2009 as you can see
01:06:28 can see right and uh you can see that you were present at it yes um
01:06:37 if you go to page two please paragraph three you can see it says this janus confirmed that some fire safety information had now been drafted for inclusion in the new
01:06:48 drafted for inclusion in the new residence handbook this has been circulated to members for comment
01:06:52 comment so is it right that you first drafted fire safety information for inclusion in the residence handbook at that stage may 2009 i don't know i i can see that you've
01:07:04 i don't know i i can see that you've given me a 2004 version and there's there's very little in there um and
01:07:10 um and we haven't got the appendix to this i don't know if that was the first time i did or not i i find that really hard to believe but i am
01:07:17 i am right i don't have the handbook and i don't have the older version so i'm not in a position to say do you know what prompted the inclusion of
01:07:25 of fire safety information in the new residence handbook in may 2009 i can only presume that the handbook was being reviewed and updated and there was an
01:07:36 reviewed and updated and there was an opportunity for me to feed into it as i say it was either all all reviewed or
01:07:41 or we had to live with the old version until it was renewed so it must have been at a review point right uh cst403279
01:07:52 right uh cst403279 email exchange august 11 between you and paul miller page two exactly
01:08:01 that's the one that's sorry that was the one i was remembering that's what you're referring to is it yeah i remember seeing this right this exchange indicates that the fire safety advice for the residents handbook was still in draft form at that stage uh is
01:08:14 still in draft form at that stage uh is that right august 2011 um i i don't know whether it was again in draft form i i don't know i don't know how often they reviewed it right do you know who paul miller was yes he's
01:08:26 do you know who paul miller was yes he's a resident resident he was a resident who had um a specific foreign safety concern um he didn't live in granville he lived in the world's end of state yes indeed and do you know why the residents
01:08:37 indeed and do you know why the residents handbook had not been finalized at least so far as fire safety advice was concerned by uh august 2011. no i would have provided for a safety advice and if they were reviewing the document i would have had
01:08:48 reviewing the document i would have had an opportunity to review it again um i was the debate the discussion that we had with mr miller on site and i think the fire brigade
01:08:57 brigade um he raised some issues and one of the issues
01:09:01 issues he raised was well how do we communicate with residents and and how do we advise those and i said well actually and that's quite timely i think i've been asked to review this so perhaps you could feed into what i
01:09:12 could feed into what i i think is what we should be communicating so i sent him a copy and and he he seemed happy with it if you go to page one we can see that uh you forward this email to mark
01:09:26 that uh you forward this email to mark to carl stokes on the 18th of march 2013.
01:09:29 2013. yeah for info below his correspondence with mr miller on the fire safety info for our residents handbook item three on the minutes for the meeting with councillor hargreaves um was the tenant's handbook
01:09:41 um was the tenant's handbook at least so far as fire safety was concerned was still in draft at this point march 13. no i i not as far as i'm aware for sure this mr miller had um something that he was
01:09:54 mr miller had um something that he was unhappy about and um we endeavored to um addressed that and we that ended up
01:10:03 up involving councillors and the fire brigade and on-site meetings and it seemed to be he accepted the farbright's position which which was the same as ours but um some he would raise the same issue
01:10:13 issue every couple of years and i think that's been raised again by mr miller and therefore
01:10:18 therefore i was revisiting the original email exchange that we'd had
01:10:24 my question was really about whether the handbook was finalized and then updated or whether it remained in draft yeah and all i can say to you is i would have provided my final information and
01:10:35 have provided my final information and to the best of my knowledge it was finalized and updated and if there was a further review i would have been consulted subsequently i've got no reason to believe that it wasn't i was sorry i was just trying to explain the context of this email
01:10:55 [Applause] right
01:11:07 but so as far as you're concerned the residence handbook was finalized but updated from time to time yes that was my understanding can we then turn to the subject of fire safety letters for new tenants
01:11:19 safety letters for new tenants uh tmo double zero eight six five nine nine one please this is a letter dated uh dated september 2016 signed by you
01:11:33 september 2016 signed by you tmo double zero 865 991 dear resident
01:11:39 if fire safety in your home this looks like a standard form fire safety letter for new tenants is that correct it is yeah were residents told that they could ask for that letter to be translated into another language
01:11:50 another language um not directly as part of this letter but as i say it went into an induction pack
01:11:55 pack um which was provided by my colleague the void's officer so there could have been any number of things if there was a reason to to translate they potentially could have could have asked for for all of it right
01:12:07 for for all of it right now we can see that there's no reference in this letter to personal emergency evacuation plans this is september 2016 at a time when the vulnerable policy is being discussed are you able to say why
01:12:19 being discussed are you able to say why there's nothing in here about peeps i'm not what i would just reiterate is this was
01:12:26 this was um my
01:12:29 um my my colleague was would meet on site with the individual and talk them through the items in the induction pack and would would come away with a view of whether and you know whether they had
01:12:40 whether and you know whether they had any support or required any support or if there were any vulnerability issues so they were quite well placed to come back with relevant information if we needed to take further action
01:12:51 needed to take further action and i think i didn't want to make it overly long when you your new tenant and you're hit with a whole pile of information i wanted to make sure that they would read it and adjust it well it wouldn't make it overly long if you had an extra part at the end saying if you have any
01:13:02 the end saying if you have any disabilities or vulnerabilities please let your
01:13:05 let your neighborhood officer or housing manager know no indeed no but it didn't now is it right that moira mcdonald was supposed to distribute these letters um yes most of the time she was the
01:13:17 um yes most of the time she was the voice officer i believe so yes how do you did you know whether she did provide that letter to new tenants was there a system there wasn't a system i would speak to her on a regular basis just to confirm
01:13:28 her on a regular basis just to confirm that she was still doing it sometimes she would show me that it was in the pack where she pre-prepared packs and also um i would ask her if she needed
01:13:36 needed additional copies of the home fire safety leaflet which we got from the operational teams at the fire brigade and they would often bring to our liaison meetings right so you've also referred to regular articles on fire safety and link
01:13:47 articles on fire safety and link magazine and home ownership newsletter how often uh or how regularly did fire safety articles feature in those magazines i don't know actually um
01:13:59 those magazines i don't know actually um was there a program of fire safety advice to be distributed in the newsletters or where it was probably more ad hoc than it should have been when you say ad hoc you mean responsive particularly not necessarily responsive
01:14:10 particularly not necessarily responsive just sometimes i would think oh i haven't put anything in for a while i'll um
01:14:15 i'll um and in terms of the homeownership news it was um
01:14:19 it was um produced by the homeownership team and their sort of uh kind of assistant director would contact me on a regular basis to say i'm producing another one uh is there anything that
01:14:30 another one uh is there anything that you want me to include and so sometimes it might be gas safety sometimes it will be fire safety sometimes it would be relating to flat entrance doors there were kind of different things that we would put in um do you know why the fire safety
01:14:41 um do you know why the fire safety advice was was disseminated through these publications rather than in a dedicated circular the leaflet say um no reason that these
01:14:52 um no reason that these these things were i suppose already in existence
01:14:55 existence and to go back to the kind of original advice i'd been given by the comms team that it was they had found it to be more um well received
01:15:07 more um well received and um that residents the impression or the the
01:15:12 the the uh research they done indicated the residents preferred the information in the way
01:15:15 the way that it was provided um and and sometimes if i think the concern was if you send somebody a bespoke letter about one particular issue it might not actually get opened whereas if it's a magazine i
01:15:27 get opened whereas if it's a magazine i don't know i can't really comment i'm not a comments person i was just um that's what i was now the reason i ask is because the lga guidance which you were familiar with referred to campaigns of leafleting and other
01:15:38 to campaigns of leafleting and other initiatives in order to keep the fire safety message fresh you'll recall that yes um paragraph 77 yeah and some sometimes we we have distributed fire brigade leaflets
01:15:48 leaflets um through all the high rise and we would have done occasionally done things like that so there were there were different different initiatives so you did do that did you we did we didn't do it regularly but we had done it
01:15:59 it and and um we actually recall at the time
01:16:03 time just before we appointed selvus i think we did all of the high-rise blocks with fire brigade leaflets and we would have done it periodically and
01:16:10 and did all leaseholders receive homeowner newsletters and tenants link magazine yes and there were several who wished not to receive the the link magazine
01:16:22 not to receive the the link magazine several leaseholders particularly um and they were omitted from the circulation because that was their choice but yes now uh
01:16:33 yes now uh the link link magazine at least was published in english wasn't it yes uh but there was a flyer at the end wasn't there it's saying that residents could request
01:16:45 it's saying that residents could request a translation that's my understanding yes let's just look at an example of that
01:16:50 that um tmo double zero eight seven three five four
01:16:54 five four nine
01:16:57 mr chamber we'll look at this and then i would ask for the yes very well okay this is linked or link
01:17:08 this is linked or link which which is all the readers a merry christmas
01:17:11 christmas uh for this is the autumn winter 15 issue
01:17:17 issue if you go to page 40 there is a flyer
01:17:25 a flyer which says do you want this information in any other format or language you see that yep was that the only means by which residents were informed
01:17:36 by which residents were informed that they could request a translation of fire safety advice
01:17:41 um i don't know i don't know if there's anything on the website right um but but in general for a while we had um i think it's called language line there there was a sort of an active
01:17:53 there was a sort of an active translation that could be done on the telephone
01:17:55 telephone which all of my neighborhood colleagues particularly knew knew firsthand so they were
01:17:59 were and i i recall certainly having to get um procedures trans translated in spanish and in various locations right and you can
01:18:10 in various locations right and you can see that
01:18:12 see that the question and the invitation in english there are translated into seven languages yeah i believe there were core seven languages at the time
01:18:23 were core seven languages at the time that were recognized back in back in 20 i don't know i don't know if it was about a borough um approach or it was just to do with the the quantities of well i was going to
01:18:35 the quantities of well i was going to ask you what if they only spoke amharic or
01:18:37 or talugu i'm sure they could requested anything but but the call these were the core languages that the residents spoke from from the assessment that had been done i believe right but what if they didn't speak any
01:18:48 right but what if they didn't speak any of those languages that's the point i'm making that they could they could request it in any language
01:18:54 language um we had language line we had access to other other translation facilities and they weren't ex exclusively these but these were the main languages that our residents spoke mr chairman is that a convenient moment
01:19:06 mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is thank you we'll have a short break now miss ray we'll come back at 25 to 4 please
01:19:12 please and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while arriving all right thank you
01:19:26 right 25 to 4 then please
01:37:00 [Music] thank you would you ask ms ray to come back in please [Applause]
01:37:15 good right ready to go on again yes thank you very much are you ready mr miller yes mr chairman thank you we're going to spend a bit of time
01:37:23 time still on the subject of fire safety advice can i turn to fire safety advice during the grenfell tower refurbishment next during the grenfell tower refurbishment who was responsible for
01:37:35 refurbishment who was responsible for providing updates on fire safety for residents i would have seen that as being the
01:37:41 being the the um project team's responsibility because they knew what was happening in the program and what the impact of that would be on the residents
01:37:49 residents so um i would have seen that as something that they would provide in their newsletters and keep me appraised right you see claire williams says that she wasn't responsible for providing fire safety advice to residents
01:38:01 residents only for preparing refurbishment newsletters would you agree with that um she could have
01:38:08 have she could and she did consult me about what the advice how it would be worded how it could be included in the newsletter but um she was the person who was communicating with the residents and she had a vehicle for research
01:38:19 had a vehicle for research um that doesn't quite answer my question of the two of you claire williams and you who was responsible who was answerable for providing updates
01:38:31 who was answerable for providing updates on fire safety advice to residents of grenfell tower well i suppose it must have been both of us because i couldn't have provided information unless i knew what was happening in the project and the impact of that upon the building
01:38:43 and the impact of that upon the building in the residence and she knew what was happening and could advise me and therefore so it was probably a joint um initiative right i'm not sure she saw it that way you see she told us that it was for the health
01:38:55 she told us that it was for the health and safety team to ensure that residents receive fire safety advice just the reference for that was day one two one at pages 19 to 20. do you agree with that
01:39:06 that um in the normal scheme of things it would be
01:39:10 would be the health and safety team who provided that information but without having input from the design from the the project team
01:39:19 team we we wouldn't have been necessarily able to provide up-to-date information so
01:39:23 so that's my the point i'm trying to make is that like we couldn't have done it in isolation the way we normally would without significant input right yes was there therefore any um plan any strategy to provide fire
01:39:35 um plan any strategy to provide fire safety advice to residents while work was continuing don't know if there was a strategy it was something that we discussed periodically um clara as you probably appreciate um
01:39:46 um clara as you probably appreciate um we invited her to come to our regular fire brigade liaison meetings so we were actively looking at kind of fire safety issues in relation to the project um and [Music]
01:39:57 [Music] as and when she was doing newsletters to incorporate that information she would she would get my input now from a review of the grenfell tower refurbishment
01:40:08 of the grenfell tower refurbishment newsletters which were distributed between september 2013 and may 2016 really the period of the refurb we can only find two which refer to fire safety advice
01:40:18 advice one in july 2014 the july 2014 newsletter and the may 2016 newsletter did you know that that was those were the only occasions on which fire safety advice was given to residents of
01:40:30 advice was given to residents of grenfell tower during the refurbishment no i didn't but i um i was under the impression that there was also some information on noticeboards and and there were there was other means of providing information as part of the project
01:40:41 information as part of the project well let's look at the first newsletter tmo
01:40:44 tmo uh well this is what she says in her statement about it tmo double zero eight four zero
01:40:49 four zero three six four this is uh claire williams's first witness statement of page 38 please let's go to page 38 paragraph 210
01:41:00 let's go to page 38 paragraph 210 she refers to the stay put advice there and she says that the entry in the newsletter was in part prompted by emails sent by editor farn noting that he believed ryden's site compound was taking up the grenfell
01:41:11 compound was taking up the grenfell designated evacuation meeting point the entry was to reinforce the fire safety strategy and instructions and guidance of lfb that all occupants except those occupying the flat where the fire was should remain in the flat
01:41:22 the fire was should remain in the flat rather than evacuate to a meeting point
01:41:27 and she goes on to refer to an email exchange between you and ben dewis on the previous page if you go back to that page 37 paragraph 209
01:41:39 now where she says the position was relayed to me by janice ray following her exchanges of correspondence with ben duis of lfb on the 8th and 9th of july 2014. if we go to that
01:41:51 2014. if we go to that it's tmo12006875 page 2.
01:42:02 uh and uh you can see um in the third email down from the top on page two
01:42:10 page two uh ben dewis uh writes to you and says dear janice i received this email below from an edhon who you may be aware of who lives at granville tower
01:42:21 granville tower and then he goes on to say the at the bottom the contractor has contacted the local station to inform them of changes to access points and riser access the local station are making arrangements to carry out a
01:42:32 arrangements to carry out a familiarization visit for local crews unfortunately it would appear the same courtesy has not been given to residents to update them on their emergency procedures could i ask what the measures being taken in regard to fire safety that the premises are
01:42:43 premises are during the refurbishment works now we can see that you this is then forwarded by you to claire williams
01:42:50 williams if you go to page one at the bottom
01:42:55 you see that yes and you uh ask do we need to write to residence
01:43:04 uh do we need to write a resonance it's the second line in the first paragraph on the issue of fire safety during the works you see that yes and then you say we could put something together to reassure them that
01:43:15 something together to reassure them that there is still a statement strategy and reiterating the procedures they should follow works in hand to enhance fire safety in the longer term et cetera perhaps this has already been done question mark i need to respond to this man and would like to be able to
01:43:27 man and would like to be able to emphasize what we have already done meetings letters etc why were you not aware of what fire safety information had been provided to residents to date because i wasn't part of the project team
01:43:38 project team and i had at that stage assumed that it was something that the project team had in hand um right and and so i didn't have that information which is why i'm questioning her and assuming um that that's
01:43:51 and assuming um that that's that's already being put in place now you suggest putting together information to reassure residents uh and then in the last line you say you want to emphasize what we have already done
01:44:01 done is it that you didn't want to admit that nothing had been put in place well just to reiterate my answer to your last question is that i didn't know what the project team had done
01:44:12 team had done um and so i wanted to be clear what that was and if there were gaps then clearly we needed to plug them but i am i didn't know i wasn't part of that team
01:44:23 right why didn't you just ask claire williams well what has been done well i think that's just my long-handed way of saying that i see um if we uh then go please to tmo one
01:44:34 um if we uh then go please to tmo one triple zero seven three five three page uh five and over to page six let's look together at the foot of page five over to page six in this email run we
01:44:45 over to page six in this email run we can see that um you write to ben dewis same day it's a different email chain but this is part of the same correspondence and you say hi ben thank you for your email i've spoken to my colleague claire williams project manager for the work at
01:44:57 williams project manager for the work at grenfell tower and we would advise as follows and then you go on to
01:45:04 explain some background and you set out a number of measures that you're taking on the fire safety strategy and in the second paragraph second bullet at the top of page six you say this a newsletter
01:45:15 newsletter is being sent to all grenfell residents on a regular basis with updates on the works
01:45:19 works and i can confirm that the july newsletter which is currently being drafted includes confirmation of the block stay put fire evacuation strategy what this means for the residents and the intention to maintain this for the duration of the work
01:45:31 duration of the work now you don't say there that that step was being taken in response to his email do you
01:45:36 do you no i don't but it was wasn't it well it that's
01:45:39 that's the that's the first time i became aware that
01:45:42 that um the the project team hadn't already been writing to residents to confirm um their fire safety procedures sorry that's at that point
01:45:53 that's at that point i didn't i didn't know so you're absolutely right but i i didn't why didn't you tell mr jewish that you had not
01:45:59 had not at that stage so far provided any fire safety advice before being prompted by his email um
01:46:08 i don't know um i don't know whether they
01:46:11 they they were that there was already information on the notice board or i i don't know um most of the information i had to glean from claire and then and then um advised ben right
01:46:24 um advised ben right now the next newsletter with fire safety advice was may 16 jrp 6028
01:46:38 please and if we get a page four that's that's page one if we go to page four
01:46:46 four um you can see the fire safety
01:46:52 advice uh in the second arrow the stay put fire policy and you can see what's said there wait read it all out to you
01:47:00 to you um that's how it appears um if we look at the email exchange between you and claire williams on this subject this is at tm00860222
01:47:18 and this is an email from claire williams to you the 29th of april 2016. uh janice yesterday's demonstration went well apparently and then in point two towards the foot
01:47:29 and then in point two towards the foot of the email she says they asked how we publicize our staple policy i attached the relevant newsletter and i will put this in the may 2016 one again now you can see from the
01:47:41 again now you can see from the attachments at the top of that page that the relevant newsletter was the one from july 2014 yes yes although it doesn't say 2014
01:47:53 yes yes although it doesn't say 2014 take it from me that it is it says july version 9 pdf um it looks from this email do you agree with me that the fire safety advice was only provided to residents during the refurbishment
01:48:04 refurbishment uh on the request of the london fire brigade
01:48:07 brigade in other words after a prompt it it looks that way yes do you know why the tmo didn't have it it just helped me a bit i'm a bit puzzled because nothing had changed had it why was it
01:48:19 changed had it why was it no it hadn't sorry is it being suggested that something had changed during the course of the refurbishment to render the previous fire advice redundant
01:48:29 redundant no i'm not suggesting that at all i'm simply seeking to pray whether or not but well i think i have the answer that the the the publication of the fire safety advice
01:48:43 publication of the fire safety advice so far as you see it in the two newsletters uh was prompted by uh requests or suggestions from the lfb there's only a reiteration of what had always been yes there's nothing that changes in the advice itself
01:48:56 my question then is is why did the tmo not have a proactive plan to inform residents about fire safety during the refurbishment rather than being
01:49:04 being prompted by the lfb to do it um i can't give you the answer to that um just would reiterate that my understanding was that there was information in the notice boards
01:49:15 information in the notice boards throughout the whole period of the refurbishment so it was it was on hand people have had information in the newsletter there are resident liaison officers and people on site who could
01:49:27 people on site who could be um or people can bring me or there are lots of opportunities to ask questions but it but it hadn't changed it was it was the same so i i can't sorry i can't give you a
01:49:39 i i can't sorry i can't give you a satisfactory explanation um i want to turn now to the topic of fire action notices
01:49:46 notices in tma properties uh can we go back please to
01:49:50 please to cst ball zeros two seven zero one right this is the second letter
01:50:01 right this is the second letter of the 27th of september 2010 following the 24th of september 2010 meeting uh we looked at this earlier uh uh
01:50:12 uh we looked at this earlier uh uh and you could see the title fire safety signage in residential buildings
01:50:18 uh and you can see in the first paragraph he says during our meeting on friday 24th september 2010 at the hub etc you asked me to comment on the issue of fire safety signage
01:50:29 of fire safety signage for residential buildings under the control of the tmo and he goes on to say there are four different varieties of fire safety signage you may encounter in a building these being and he sets them out do you remember why you asked mr stokes for
01:50:41 remember why you asked mr stokes for that advice
01:50:44 um i'm i think i was probably just seeking clarification of what was what was required um i don't know whether i felt i'd been getting conflicting
01:50:55 getting conflicting information from either from different guides or or perhaps from different views from different fire officers i'm not sure i was clearly i believe i was seeking clarification
01:51:06 i believe i was seeking clarification well we'll look at the letter in a little bit more detail in a moment but i may be able to help you with your recollection can we go back to um
01:51:14 um the uh salvas document the 22nd of september 2009 at sal 6013
01:51:30 this is the fire risk assessment for fire safety policy and procedures uh and it's the 22nd of september
01:51:37 september 2009. if we go to page 10 in that document and look please at paragraph 7.2
01:51:47 um they have uh identified as a hazard the lack of or inadequate information and instructions to tenants and contractors and in italics under the existing
01:51:58 and in italics under the existing control measures in place you'll see it says fire action notices are not displayed
01:52:03 displayed in properties where there is no fire alarm system and it is reported that tenants are not provided with specific individual emergency plans based upon their own
01:52:11 their own building layout and if you look at the next page
01:52:16 next page i'm sorry page 17 action this is part this is in the action part the action plan correspondingly with 7.2
01:52:28 uh you can see it says under 7.1 it is recommended that fire action notices should be displayed in all tma-managed properties setting out the fire action procedure for the specific
01:52:40 fire action procedure for the specific property as per lakehouse guidance you see that i do yeah uh at 7.1 um do you remember that recommendation
01:52:52 um do you remember that recommendation do you remember the hazard and the recommendation that went with it no not especially actually was it your understanding that the fire action procedure was to tell residents what actions to be taken in the event of a fire
01:53:05 taken in the event of a fire well yeah advise them as opposed to exit signs matters of that nature um yes sorry
01:53:16 um yes sorry sorry fire fire apologies could you repeat that yes was it your understanding that the fire action procedure um which should be set out in accordance with the action required
01:53:29 with the action required uh what was a document which told residents what they should do in the event of a fire
01:53:37 um fire action procedure to my mind is this is the same as a fire action notice where you're setting out the procedure people would be expected to follow in the event of a fire
01:53:48 to follow in the event of a fire yes i think we're saying the same thing the notice sets out the procedure yes yes and the procedure is to tell people what they do step by step if there is a fire indeed yes now my question is having
01:54:00 indeed yes now my question is having shown you
01:54:01 shown you the defect hazard and the action plan in september 2010 as identified sorry september 2009 2009 as identified by salvas was it that which caused you
01:54:13 which caused you to ask for carl texas advice uh exactly a year later in your in your meeting of the 24th of september 2010
01:54:25 september 2010 it may have been because la course was largely concerned with sort of hmo type properties and so i can understand in hmo type
01:54:36 and so i can understand in hmo type properties it's really crucial to have fire action notices displayed um because of the shared
01:54:42 shared parts and potentially the elevated risk um whereas we're talking about purpose-built um self-contained premises and and i was maybe just seeking reassurance that that
01:54:53 maybe just seeking reassurance that that was what we were required to do right
01:55:01 did you read that as as limited to hmo uh premises in other words i think it's housing
01:55:08 housing in multiple occupation or did you read it as as applicable to all tma managed property as it says um it says all managed all tml managed
01:55:19 um it says all managed all tml managed property my my point was that my interpretation of liqueurs
01:55:23 liqueurs is that it was very much focused on hmo type
01:55:27 type type properties not necessarily the properties that we were managing right now before we get back to september 2010 there's some earlier history i think um if we go please to rbk3052572
01:55:41 um if we go please to rbk3052572 and this is the minute of the progress meeting that you attended with salvas and
01:55:46 and and much more of our bkc on the 26th of january 2010
01:55:59 there it is we looked at that a number of times now um if we go down to paragraph 2.4
01:56:11 you can see in the second line it says there was then a lengthy discussion about the desirability of having a notice at the main entrance of each block
01:56:17 block to document the emergency procedure in relation to that specific block this would have the advantage of being accessible to all residents visitors contractors and staff however it would obviously be it would
01:56:28 however it would obviously be it would obviously only be available in one language unless diagrams were used instead
01:56:31 instead therefore jw felt that this should be done in addition to sending a letter to the residents which could be offered in the core languages clearly this notice would need some consideration etc now the
01:56:42 need some consideration etc now the action list there as you can see at the bottom uh was uh for you to email a draft letter to salvas for a comment yes yes and also to raise with
01:56:56 yes and also to raise with area review boards rt asked jw to raise with the tmo executive team and possibly raise with area review board so there were two actions there yes yes what was the area review board um
01:57:09 yes what was the area review board um the area of so that i think we had i think we divided the stock up into eight sort of geographical patches um um eight areas in each area the residents associations got together
01:57:21 the residents associations got together and had a
01:57:23 and had a positive money each year that they could spend on um works that they they wanted to do um i don't think it was a huge amount of money but sometimes it might be landscaping some you know those kinds of
01:57:34 landscaping some you know those kinds of issues if they had particular local priorities that couldn't be funded in other ways that was one way so they were being consulted about
01:57:42 about um what their preferences would be in terms of spending the money and they they probably had i think they were consulted about all sorts of policy and strategy and they met regularly but that's what i do remember that they
01:57:53 but that's what i do remember that they did have some budgetary right now do you remember whether the signs whether there was a conclusion that the sign should be diagrams or or one language no i don't
01:58:04 diagrams or or one language no i don't was the intention to put these um notices up in all residential blocks in the tmo stock um the discussion was obviously here
01:58:15 um the discussion was obviously here about a notice by the entrance point um and i think i think there was still some degree of pondering about whether that was actually going to be helpful or useful
01:58:27 actually going to be helpful or useful and i'm wondering if if there was going to be some consultation with the residents
01:58:30 residents via the area review boards about whether that would work for them or whether they wanted to propose an alternative i'm sort of speculating but that seems to be worth it do you remember whether this question was raised with the area
01:58:41 this question was raised with the area review boards at all i'd i wouldn't have attended their meeting so i'm i'm not really clear what about the tma executive team was that question raised with them sorry i don't know at this stage right
01:58:52 sorry i don't know at this stage right did you draft a letter to salvas for comment
01:58:55 comment no because as we we spoke about earlier um the
01:58:59 um the steer that i was given from my line manager and our comms people would not to do a letter but to do an article in the link magazine and i discussed that with salvas and they seem to think that that was of the equivalent status
01:59:10 equivalent status right now in may 2010 there was an operations committee meeting let's look at the minutes for that
01:59:20 tmo10037437 page 89.
01:59:29 we better look at page 88 in fact first to see that you were there you see that yeah uh and page 89 agenda item five
01:59:40 uh and page 89 agenda item five you can see that there is a report on fire risk assessments there you see that yep and um it goes on to say in the third paragraph down it was agreed that fire instructions
01:59:51 it was agreed that fire instructions would be provided for each block further details on how this would be done in conjunction with other work arising from the assessments would be brought
01:59:57 brought to the next meeting is that a reference to
02:00:01 to fire action notices there i think it must be this right do you remember whether anything was done at that time or thereafter or at all in 2010
02:00:10 2010 but before your discussion with carl stakes on the 24th of september 2010 about fire action notices i don't recall
02:00:21 now we've seen from the letter that on the 24th of september you asked carl stokes to provide advice on fire safety signage
02:00:28 signage let's get back to the 27th of september letter the second one of that day
02:00:35 [Music]
02:00:38 cst402701 do you remember receiving the letter i'm sorry i'll wait for it to come on the screen there it is do you remember receiving this letter um not especially but i clearly did you clearly did and and if you go to
02:00:50 you clearly did and and if you go to page six
02:00:52 you could see the beginning of his conclusions at the foot of that page and you have exit signs there you see if you go over to page seven
02:01:04 you see if you go over to page seven he particularly deals there with fire notices you see yes and then he says at the end then i've read this passage to you already i therefore concur that as tma supplies information to the
02:01:16 that as tma supplies information to the residents in a variety of different ways newsletters residence meetings and articles in the link magazine etc fire action notices are not required to be displayed in the residential buildings did you follow that advice
02:01:27 buildings did you follow that advice [Applause] um i believe that i did but i think that what um confirmed it was obviously the publication of the the
02:01:39 was obviously the publication of the the lga guide
02:01:40 lga guide which also indicated that fire action notices
02:01:43 notices in buildings um of a relatively straightforward layout weren't didn't have to be on display so that sort of confirmed that in my mind that what he had sort of
02:01:54 in my mind that what he had sort of indicated
02:01:55 indicated was appropriate for for those blocks did you
02:01:59 you well was the result of this that you therefore did not take steps to make sure that fire action notices were displayed in the tmas residential buildings not at that time well not all of them um
02:02:10 that time well not all of them um obviously where there were shared facilities and specialized housing and temporary accommodation or whatever the general needs housing general general needs purpose build um no i don't believe we did at that stage until quite a bit later
02:02:22 until quite a bit later did you explain that to the tmo executive team or the tma operations committee um i don't know that i did but i'm pretty sure i would have explained it to my line manager and if
02:02:34 explained it to my line manager and if she needed me to explain it to them or include it in report then clearly i would have done right did you ever get formal sign off from either the tmo executive team or the
02:02:45 either the tmo executive team or the operations committee or the board or or rbkc not to have action fire action notices
02:02:51 notices displayed in the purpose-built blocks within the tma stock i didn't get formal sign-off now did you tell the lfb that you'd been advised that you did not need to put up fire action notices and weren't going to as a result
02:03:02 result i didn't but any discussions i ever had with the lfb they were mostly pretty low-key about fire action notices until the idea fire
02:03:13 and and they weren't being requested in in deficiency notices or or anything so i don't think it was my my impression was it wasn't something they felt strongly about now you said a moment ago in your uh in
02:03:24 now you said a moment ago in your uh in your
02:03:24 your evidence that you correct me if i'm wrong and i've misunderstood it that you were in not putting up action notices uh following the lga guide
02:03:34 guide i know the lga guy didn't come in until the following july what i'm saying is my impression was that when the lga guide was finalized it sort of um it was in keeping with the
02:03:45 it sort of um it was in keeping with the advice that carl had provided
02:03:49 right does that tell us that when it came out you went you went to the lga guide
02:03:53 guide and checked it and discovered so you thought
02:03:57 thought that it was consistent with the advice that
02:04:00 that karlstex had given you previously um what i would have i would have went through the lda guide one was published and looked at all the aspects of it and and that was something that stayed with me right let's just look at it um hom 30 is 45964
02:04:17 let's just look at it um hom 30 is 45964 page 116 please
02:04:26 and if we look together at
02:04:30 paragraph 77.4
02:04:34 it says general advice to give to residents on domestic fire safety and preventing fires in the home is available from then there's a web link
02:04:44 link protect yourself in your rented home which is guidance on electrical safety and is also available in both printed and online form from the electrical safety council it is important that needs of non-english speaking residents are
02:04:55 non-english speaking residents are taking into account fire safety information in a number of alternative languages is available to download
02:05:01 download and then appendix 4 to this guide also contains suitable content for basic advice to include when communicating with residents basic fire action notices are usually the simplest means of conveying to residents the actions
02:05:13 of conveying to residents the actions they should take in the event of a fire then if you go to page 118 paragraph 79.1
02:05:25 preparing for emergencies i think we've looked at this before today but it says again it is a requirement of the fsa that there should be
02:05:33 be a suitable emergency plan for the premises rarely in purpose-built blocks of flats will it be necessary to have a more elaborate emergency plan than a simple fire action notice c appendix 5 for examples nor will it be
02:05:45 c appendix 5 for examples nor will it be universally necessary to display such notices
02:05:48 notices indeed it's more common not to display notices but to convey this information to tenants in other ways for example through residence handbooks and so forth now first when
02:06:00 now first when this guidance came out did you seek any further advice from carl stakes about whether or not fire action notices should be put up by the tmo in its purpose-built blocks of flats um
02:06:12 in its purpose-built blocks of flats um i
02:06:13 i don't recall doing so um and now i've read you two parts of of this guidance which part did you think you were relying on as consistent with
02:06:21 with carl stakes's previous advice that you did not need fire action notices uh nor will it be universally necessary to display such notices in in
02:06:33 display such notices in in fairly simple layout blocks of flats right
02:06:37 right yes did you go back to carl stokes and ask him
02:06:41 ask him given the way in which that is phrased in which blocks he thought in his professional opinion it was necessary to display such notices and in which blocks it was not i didn't ask him that
02:06:53 it was not i didn't ask him that specifically but he he was undertaking fire risk assessments and i was getting information on a block-by-block basis so i therefore expected to receive it as a significant
02:07:04 expected to receive it as a significant findings action plan in the blocks where they weren't displayed where they were required did you ever get any advice in relation to any particular block that for that block a fire action notice
02:07:15 that for that block a fire action notice should be displayed um as
02:07:19 um as i said specialized housing guides where we have communal lounges and and such like if we had we may have had some temporary accommodation with similar in fact we have there was at least one um so
02:07:30 um so and any um assessments he did on any of the workplaces um so but not not purpose built no that i can recall so did that tell you that carl stokes
02:07:41 so did that tell you that carl stokes wasn't about this task did not include specifically identifying general needs housing in purpose-built blocks and picking those which did and those which did not need fire action notices otherwise he wasn't
02:07:54 fire action notices otherwise he wasn't doing the exercise of of bringing his judgment to bear to decide where they were required and where they weren't well i believe that he was it was his view that they they largely weren't required in the
02:08:06 they largely weren't required in the properties we discussed i believe he did have a view on it i'm sure that he was as aware of of this and all the other guidances did you ever have a discussion with him about him going around those blocks and asking himself where they were and where
02:08:18 asking himself where they were and where they weren't needed i very well may have done but i certainly would have expected that to be part of his fire risk assessment approach that when he's in a building that's one of the things that he considers i'm
02:08:29 considers i'm fairly sure that's something that i would expect to be done under past 79. you can't tell there can you from the face of any of his fras that we've seen whether he actively did consider whether or not for that building uh a fire
02:08:40 or not for that building uh a fire action native should be needed or not um he hasn't made it explicit that he's considered it no therefore you don't know whether he's brought his mind to bear and discounted it
02:08:49 it in each case or simply not thought about it
02:08:53 it i don't think i can answer that no no and you can't answer because you didn't think about it either you didn't ask the question of yourself that i've just asked you well i did think about it i i did think it
02:09:05 i did think about it i i did think it about it and um we have a specialist consultant in fire i'm reading the guidance and i've got my interpretation which i think applies overwhelmingly to our purpose
02:09:16 applies overwhelmingly to our purpose belt blocks i realize that we've got other blocks with other risks um and i'm aware that they need to have action notices and he's recommending those as well so i i don't think that's
02:09:28 those as well so i i don't think that's entirely fair my question let me try my question a slightly different way did you ever ask yourself the question i wonder whether carl has really thought about this has he actually thought about whether this block needs a fire action notice or did you
02:09:40 needs a fire action notice or did you ask yourself the question has he discounted it completely for all blocks and applied one size fits all to them all did you ever wonder about that um i i may have done
02:09:52 um i i may have done um but just again since overwhelmingly we were talking about paris built blocks of flats with no kind of shared facilities and a relatively straightforward layout
02:10:03 straightforward layout then if he was applying it one size fits all that
02:10:06 all that that was the size that fitted that kind of block
02:10:10 of block can we go to rbk 30s 29298 please
02:10:26 this is uh a an enforcement note it's dated the 23rd of december 2015 for tower i know you're familiar with this document can we go to page six
02:10:37 this document can we go to page six of it please where we see among other issues
02:10:41 issues in the second box article 14 the lfb concluded
02:10:45 concluded uh in the second row in the table that there was number one no directional signage to indicate which staircase was to be used in the event of emergency and then the next row below that um
02:10:58 and then the next row below that um under article 15.1 or sub 1 it was found that emergency instructions for actions to be taken in the event of fire
02:11:06 fire are not displayed within the common parts of the premises for visitors and other relevant persons
02:11:13 now you received that on the 23rd of december 2015 i take it that it made its way into your hands pretty quickly um actually we didn't get it to the 6th of january i don't really know the
02:11:25 of january i don't really know the vagaries of the postal system or the email system but when it arrived it got to me quickly yes and we've seen some evidence which laura johnson
02:11:37 johnson and we discussed about that but let's look then at the uh next lfb meeting this is rbk3013997
02:11:48 uh next lfb meeting this is rbk3013997 this is
02:11:52 this is the note of the bilateral sorry by monthly meeting with the lfb 5th january 2016 at 10 am we can see that you're there together with claire williams uh and three from the lfb including
02:12:03 uh and three from the lfb including rebecca burton yes if we go to item three agenda item three at the foot of the page
02:12:11 page a day tower enforcement notice uh janus confirmed receipt of rebecca's email attaching this enforcement notice so you had it by the fifth um electronic
02:12:22 so you had it by the fifth um electronic copy on the forward apparently yes so that that that that sets that date there if you go to page two you can see that it's minuted the first main paragraph janice asked do
02:12:33 the first main paragraph janice asked do you see
02:12:34 you see janus asked what arrangements of the lfb uh required for monitoring progress then again under that janice asked for confirmation that this notice refers exclusively to this block and that the
02:12:45 exclusively to this block and that the tmo is not required to reply to apply this to the rest of the blogs rebecca agreed that this does relate directly to a dare tower however the lfb could expect that standards required in one block
02:12:56 standards required in one block are also required in other blocks [Applause] and then janna saw clarification on some of items on the schedule then if you look at the third bullet point down article 9 1 and article 15
02:13:09 point down article 9 1 and article 15 1 requirement for fire action notices janus advised that the tmo have not installed these notices previously as the buildings are not complex they're subject to frequent use there's a stay put fire strategy etc
02:13:21 a stay put fire strategy etc further to earlier discussions are the tmr now expected to place a notice in every block question rebecca did not consider this to be a priority janice queried whether there was a specific wording that the nfb wanted us to use
02:13:32 nfb wanted us to use for this notice yeah do you agree that you were aware by this time that the fire action notices would need to be installed in all other high-rise blocks in the tmo
02:13:43 in all other high-rise blocks in the tmo stock at least according to the lfb yeah that's what i was trying to clarify yes because at no point previously had they requested them in any of their audits or any of the visits or any of our
02:13:53 our um dialogue with with the brigade so this was the first time and as you know we we were in receipt of a deficiency notice
02:13:59 notice which um was uh within two weeks or so before the fire which i actually didn't request them then either so i was just trying to be absolutely clear what standard we're needing to um
02:14:10 what standard we're needing to um meet uh do you accept that at least at least at this point even if not before
02:14:17 before you were now aware that you needed to have a
02:14:20 have a um a fire action notice in all of your blocks at least your purpose-built high-rise blocks yes yes
02:14:30 now you could see that uh rebecca said she didn't consider it to be a priority what did you understand her to mean by that um that was just her personal view
02:14:41 personal view and there are other things that she would have wanted us to prioritize which seemed sensible but um it didn't make it optional and i didn't interpret it that in in that way right what steps did you take after this meeting to ensure that fire action
02:14:52 meeting to ensure that fire action notices were installed in all blocks um i would have escalated i did escalate this and send a copy to barbara matthews my line manager which
02:15:04 matthews my line manager which clearly clarified that the the issues that the fire brigade had raised with us in the enforcement notice were expected to be
02:15:11 to be um to be met elsewhere so that's um so i escalated to executive team level really i want now to turn then to the role of
02:15:23 i want now to turn then to the role of rbkc
02:15:25 rbkc in fire safety advice can we start please with tm00865782
02:15:37 please with tm00865782 now this is an email uh on the 14th
02:15:43 yes uh if we uh go down please to page three first of all in this chain you can see that here is an email
02:15:54 that here is an email from councillor mason at rbkc to robert black of the 14th of april 2016 subject fire safety information dear robert
02:16:02 robert fire safety information to residents now just placing it in its chronology this is four months after the receipt of the enforcement notices for adair
02:16:13 of the enforcement notices for adair tower and hazelwood but at the last meeting of the cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee where there was an update on the adair tower fire it was noted that fire safety information is provided to residents on the tma website
02:16:25 residents on the tma website one committee member wondered if this was adequate given that not all residents would have access to the internet for various reasons is this information provided to residents in other ways now you i think got this email because
02:16:37 now you i think got this email because robert black referred you to it and we go
02:16:39 go to page one we can see that he did so and you responded on the 15th of april you see that yep dear counselor mason and you go on to say that i i can confirm that this is
02:16:50 to say that i i can confirm that this is provided in a number of ways and you're going to set out what those are including home visits letters leaflets
02:16:57 leaflets link home ownership etc and you go on to say specifically in relation to adair and hazelwood towers we will shortly be installing fire action notices
02:17:09 installing fire action notices setting out the action to be taken in the event of a fire in the flat and also elsewhere in the building yes uh and then you go on to say in um on the uh next page
02:17:22 um on the uh next page where you continue
02:17:25 uh our fire risk assessor this is the pre-penultimate paragraph our fire risk assessor regularly posts lfb leaflets through residence doors as part of his assessment
02:17:36 part of his assessment um now just just first of all was it the case that you were only putting up fire action notices in adair and hazelwood
02:17:46 hazelwood or was there a more general conservative plan to do so across the borough we needed we needed to have a plan to do so and we acknowledged that but at that stage i hadn't been given a budget or the go ahead to proceed with it so i
02:17:57 the go ahead to proceed with it so i didn't feel that i could include that in my response to him right so you'd only have the budget and the go ahead for those two buildings the subject of the enforcement letters yes and to be honest we were completely focusing on on those because
02:18:08 focusing on on those because for obvious reasons um but it had been escalated and it was recognized that we needed to move forward with it um but at that stage i hadn't
02:18:16 hadn't i hadn't got there we were moving forward with it at a glacial pace actually because this is now four and a half months after the fifth well i'm only telling you the truth that it had been escalated and i hadn't yet been told i could proceed so
02:18:27 been told i could proceed so i wasn't in a position to proceed no and i'm asking you to accept that in proceeding you were doing so at a glacial pace even in respect of hazelwood and adair four and a half months after the bilateral meeting with
02:18:39 months after the bilateral meeting with the lfb on the fifth of january um that's
02:18:45 um that's that's how it was all right um now on the question of the fire risk assessor putting leaflets through residence doors did you ask him to do that i can't actually recall if i asked him
02:18:56 i can't actually recall if i asked him he volunteered to do it and just asked me to get him copies of the leaflets i'm not sure and i know it was um obviously it wasn't he wasn't in a position to be doing that in every block and my recollection is you've probably
02:19:08 and my recollection is you've probably possibly targeted the maybe the smaller blocks
02:19:12 blocks why did you ask carl stokes to do that rather than the esa's i don't think i did ask him to do it i think it was something that he um volunteered to do because generally you're right that when we were doing that kind of mail drop um we would
02:19:25 that kind of mail drop um we would either get a private company to do it or we would look for the estate services assistance to do it right just to identify the leaflet
02:19:35 cst3017272
02:19:38 is that i believe it was a home for a safety leaflet the one advocating providing information about what was available yes is that it that's it that's it now
02:19:51 yes is that it that's it that's it now when he was asked if he posted leaflets in flats at grenfell tower what mr stokes told us is that he would say
02:19:57 say no because there was a dedicated caretaker and it was part of lancaster west
02:20:02 west so the caretakers would have done it or the esa's would have done it that was a day 139 at page 101 lines 9-14 do you know um or did you know that carl stokes was not posting leaflets at grenfell tower
02:20:15 not posting leaflets at grenfell tower um
02:20:15 um because there was a caretaker i i as i say i
02:20:19 say i i don't think it was something that he was doing universally and i wasn't expecting him to be doing it universally um and and actually when i think back i don't know the detail of which blocks i thought he tended to focus on the
02:20:31 thought he tended to focus on the smaller ones that he thought might be inspected less frequently because our inspection regime um with the caretakers was dependent on the size and the complexity of the the building so the smaller ones
02:20:42 the building so the smaller ones therefore were visited less often so we i think he saw that as being another way of um
02:20:47 of um making sure that the residents in those locations had some some information sorry was there a system whereby you put this leaflet in enough copies into the hands of the caretakers or esa's or housing managers
02:20:59 caretakers or esa's or housing managers so as to make sure that every single resident
02:21:02 resident had one of these in their home um rather than relying on carl stokes i think that we would have had copies of them at our receptions
02:21:13 them at our receptions um i think there may have been times for example we spoke earlier about pre-salvos we we did distribute to all of the high-rise blocks it was certainly done at that time in summer 2009 um
02:21:27 in summer 2009 um as we know that the fire brigade were also undertaking their own home fire safety visits when there was a fire they would do
02:21:34 would do um they would target the flats around that area
02:21:38 that area so they had their own initiatives that we weren't always aware of either so there were various various ways of doing them can we look at tma10045642
02:21:49 we're still in april 2016 and this is a fire safety review of the fire safety strategy that you prepared in that month tmo100 45642
02:22:03 and there it is it's paper six yeah and i'm assuming that it was presented to the tma health and safety meeting later that month is that right it's paper six yeah i presume so
02:22:14 presume so um and if you go to page two of that document you can see that it notes uh in this first bullet first main bullet point stay put evacuation strategy better publicity
02:22:27 evacuation strategy better publicity why did you consider at this point april 16 that you needed better publicity of your stay put strategy [Applause] um this is a discussion document for for
02:22:38 um this is a discussion document for for things that we we want to consider um and it seemed completely valuable to to discuss whether there could be better publicity i mean we're also aware that um we've got various
02:22:51 aware that um we've got various means of advising people um i don't really know how effective they are you know it was up for a discussion why was it up for discussion why did you think
02:23:02 discussion why did you think you needed you needed to minute a discussion of better publicity about your stay put evacuation strategy we were reviewing our fire safety strategy so inevitably we were looking
02:23:15 strategy so inevitably we were looking at
02:23:16 at comms and most of our blocks have evacuation strategies so that's why it's there what was the problem with the publicity that that indicated that it needed to be better well i'm not suggesting that there was a
02:23:28 well i'm not suggesting that there was a problem but it's it's a review of something that was written three years before um and therefore that's one of the things we considered and along with a whole heap of other as you can see yes did you take any steps to make the
02:23:41 yes did you take any steps to make the publicity better after this meeting ah well after april 2016. i i can't recall if you go to page three there are some
02:23:52 if you go to page three there are some comments that you can see from committee members yes john borra need to emphasize straight reinforce staple strategy at every opportunity do you know why john borra
02:24:03 you know why john borra emphasized the need to reinforce the stay put strategy at every opportunity no was there any discussion about that do you remember at the meeting at which this was presented uh no that i've just been emailed these
02:24:15 uh no that i've just been emailed these comments and i've pasted into the document so that everyone at the committee had um had access to them right so no not that i recall uh tmo double zero eight four
02:24:26 uh tmo double zero eight four zero seven five three
02:24:31 page five on page one to start with you'll see that this is the minute of the health and safety committee meeting 13 september 2016 we've seen it before
02:24:42 13 september 2016 we've seen it before but now
02:24:43 but now we're on a different topic you were there page five please agenda item six review of safety policy and strategy
02:24:52 you can see that there yes we looked at this we looked at this morning on the first bullet point policy on vulnerability now let's look at the second bullet point agreed that we start we look to start installing fire action notices
02:25:03 start installing fire action notices throughout the stock suggest that we adopt a risk-based approach starting with potentially high-risk blocks it was considered that as lfb included this in the enforcement native says they're likely to start requiring these
02:25:14 they're likely to start requiring these on their audits and say wise to be proactive now that's a reference isn't it to the adair tower enforcement notice yes um now this is nine months or so isn't it from your meeting on the 5th of january
02:25:25 january 2016 with rebecca burton and others from the
02:25:28 the lfb about the ada tower enforcement notice yes um can you tell us why it took nine months
02:25:36 months to reach the agreement that fire action notices should be installed in all stock no account do you know what caused the delay
02:25:43 the delay no i don't um if we um go on then to tmo double zero eight six six three four eight this is an email if we go to the bottom of page one over
02:25:55 if we go to the bottom of page one over to page two
02:26:04 email at the bottom barbara matthews to you 13th of october 2016 and then up to the top of page two she says janice i can see that the lfb are not being very helpful as you say are beginning to be more
02:26:15 as you say are beginning to be more forceful about door closers in relation to the stay put policy in advising residence residents they have again proposed fire action notices as i suggested before i think we should now put in place a program to put fire action notices in all blocks
02:26:27 to put fire action notices in all blocks as this will only come up again and again
02:26:30 again please could you provide a cost to do this program now um was the tma being chased by the lfb
02:26:37 lfb in october 2016 to install fire action notices
02:26:40 notices um i think we had received i think we'd received a few deficiency notices where um this was now being included um
02:26:52 this was now being included um it hadn't previously been something that they'd requested obviously we sought clarification and they confirmed that they would be requesting it so now
02:26:59 it so now as and when we we got a deficiency notice for a property it included this particular request can i just ask did you ever raise with the lfb the um excuse me the provision in the local
02:27:10 um excuse me the provision in the local government um guidance which said that we looked at it earlier yes you don't normally need to put them up did they i don't know that i did um
02:27:21 did they i don't know that i did um as i say they were auditing the blocks and we were sometimes getting deficiency notice and often getting um broadly compliant letters so so they knew that it wasn't our policy um so it wasn't something that they
02:27:32 um so it wasn't something that they raised with us until the idea of fire i i can't say that we had the discussion we probably did but it possibly didn't mean it so i can't be absolutely clear
02:27:43 mean it so i can't be absolutely clear right thank you just looking at what barbara matthews is telling you here she says in the second paragraph second sentence as i suggested before i think we should now put in place a program why was she having to chase you
02:27:54 program why was she having to chase you on that subject um i'm not aware that she was chasing me i
02:27:59 i once i had a budget and approval i could go ahead and do because i'd already got the wording that i wanted um and we we probably already had quotes and we knew we knew what we we could put in place we'd identified
02:28:10 we could put in place we'd identified the high-risk blocks um i'm not aware that she she was chasing me well she says as i suggested before
02:28:17 before are you saying that she hadn't no there's a difference in in suggesting and then
02:28:21 and then and actually saying yes there's a budget go ahead and do right um i clearly hadn't had an instruction where i would have gone ahead and done
02:28:31 can you explain why she's having to repeat the point to you that that a a program for fire action notices now needed to be put in place in all blocks no i can't but hopefully barbara can clarify that
02:28:43 but hopefully barbara can clarify that right mr chairman of the clock inches towards 4 30 and i'm somewhere away from finishing the topic oh well is that a reasonably convenient point during this topic yeah yes well perhaps we ought to take
02:28:55 yeah yes well perhaps we ought to take the opportunity should we yes yes just bearing in mind that we will pick up tomorrow morning in november 2016. right well there it is ray we're going to stop now for the day um we'll i'm afraid probably have to ask
02:29:07 um we'll i'm afraid probably have to ask you to come back again tomorrow but i think you were expecting that and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow please and uh in the meantime don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room
02:29:17 the room please thank you all right thank you very much i'd like to give the usher
02:29:30 thank you mr miller at 10 o'clock
02:29:34 tomorrow
02:29:38 you