Janice Wray, KCTMO fire safety manager, gives evidence on fire safety training, emergency planning, and PEEPs (Personal Emergency Evacuation Plans). The testimony reveals systematic failures to implement proper emergency plans despite guidance and recommendations from Salvas in 2009.
00:00:22 [Music]
00:00:28 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to continue hearing evidence today from janice ray so i'm going to ask the usher to bring in suray please
00:00:48 good morning mr ray good morning all right all set to go yes very good thank you yes mr miller yes mr chairman good morning good morning members of the panel miss ray good morning to you when we
00:01:00 miss ray good morning to you when we broke last night i was about to embark on the topic of fire safety training of tmo employees and i will now ask you some questions on that subject can you please be shown your third witness statement tmo double zero eight
00:01:13 witness statement tmo double zero eight four seven three zero five page thirty six
00:01:16 six paragraph one two two
00:01:23 now um this is under the rubric fire safety training and you can see in paragraph one two two that you quote extensively extensively from the tmos policy uh jw 33 which is an exhibit
00:01:37 jw 33 which is an exhibit and that is in fact the tmo fire safety strategy of june 2017 isn't it um i believe so yes it's a draft um which wasn't as i think you agreed
00:01:48 which wasn't as i think you agreed yesterday in force as at the date of the fire was it no it wasn't right uh now if we go to page but let's go to the one that was in force which was the november 2013
00:02:00 in force which was the november 2013 version that's a tmo double zero eight three zero five nine eight page thirteen this is the november 2013 fire safety
00:02:11 this is the november 2013 fire safety strategy
00:02:11 strategy which was in force at the date of a fire look please at paragraph 20.1 at the foot of the screen fire safety training for tmo staff to promote competence in the area of fire
00:02:22 promote competence in the area of fire safety amongst staff the tma provides annual fire safety training to all fire marshals and all staff who are required to carry out inspections throughout the tmo housing stock
00:02:33 throughout the tmo housing stock the course content is regularly reviewed to incorporate any issues highlighted in the fire risk assessments etc but it always has an academic element and a practical element a gender review to take account of any issues brought up by the assessor
00:02:46 issues brought up by the assessor human resources maintain a record of course attendees and attendance is mandatory now first who was responsible for ensuring that staff received the necessary fire safety training
00:02:58 necessary fire safety training um we were responsible for setting it up my colleague adrian usually liaised with our external contractor um to agree the agenda and
00:03:10 contractor um to agree the agenda and set up the courses um so it sat with us with adrian and myself
00:03:14 myself right and a paragraph 123 of your third statement we can go back to that please um page 37 that's tmo
00:03:25 um page 37 that's tmo 00847305 page 37.
00:03:31 at 123 you say phoenix fire safety training limited provided annual practical fire safety training to tma staff
00:03:38 tma staff such as that which took place at the kenzel resort center in january 2017. this training was also attended by neighborhood officers and community officers who see that yes um was that the training contemplated by the fire safety strategy
00:03:49 contemplated by the fire safety strategy do you think um yeah it was one of the courses yeah that's the one referred to historically it would have homed in on fire marshals and people who who were on estates um
00:04:00 and people who who were on estates um in the course of what they were doing doing inspections or visiting people so they had
00:04:04 they had better awareness of what to look out for was that training intended for staff who carried out inspections of tmo housing yes it was and was the training provided to fire marshals different from the the training provided to
00:04:15 training provided to to staff who inspected the tmos housing stock actually no no it was the the same course and it broadened and got developed each each year incrementally now the 2013 fire safety strategy
00:04:27 now the 2013 fire safety strategy suggests that the course content should be reviewed to incorporate risks highlighted in fire risk assessments doesn't it yes yes was the content ever content of the training ever reviewed to
00:04:39 content of the training ever reviewed to reflect
00:04:40 reflect risks highlighted in the fras yes it was and
00:04:43 and um in in a fairly practical way we got to the position where we asked the trainer we were reviewing the agenda on a yearly basis
00:04:54 basis um but we thought it would be helpful as well as having a practical demonstration of use of extinguishers if they visited one of our blocks and he could reiterate
00:05:04 reiterate um what they should be looking out for when they're doing their inspections so he would talk to them about intumescence drips and cold smoke seals and self-closures and storage um anything at all that they should be
00:05:15 should be regularly monitoring and reporting back on and things which had been highlighted by the assessment right first of all when did you as you put it get to the position where you ask the trainer
00:05:24 trainer when did that start happening um actually i'm probably not best placed to tell you to be honest it was it was something that adrian led on
00:05:35 something that adrian led on i would have said i would have advised him that these are the areas that i would like the trainer to focus on is this something that we can incorporate into the training um but actually the dates escape me apologies right who
00:05:48 escape me apologies right who you say adrian led on it is there a record of of the review of the fire risk assessments so that the course trainer would know what to put into the course
00:06:00 into the course i imagine there is but i don't have it to hand and i um i'm sure they're well i'm confident there would have been a record of me advising adrian in writing of the areas that i wanted
00:06:12 in writing of the areas that i wanted the course to be extended to include but i remember any in particular um well as i said
00:06:18 as i said um the areas that were coming up in the risk assessments if there were particular issues with communal doors or any any of the the fire safety measures that they could reasonably be expected
00:06:29 that they could reasonably be expected to inspect we wanted to have a very clear awareness of what to look for and when to escalate right and that's what we were trying to ensure
00:06:37 ensure did the course trainer phoenix for example get provided with the the fras or a selection of fras across the estate no so it would be up to you or adrian
00:06:48 no so it would be up to you or adrian bowman yes i imagine adrian bowman is who you mean to filter out from a review of all the fras across the whole of the tma stock to work out for yourselves what it
00:06:59 stock to work out for yourselves what it was that the course trainer had to uh incorporate into the training is that how it worked yes it was it's quite an exercise isn't it it is but we were receiving the fras regularly um
00:07:11 we were receiving the fras regularly um we were allocating the actions so i had a fair familiarity with things which were recurring themes and things that um particularly estate staff or anybody regularly on estate should be looking out for and should be
00:07:23 should be looking out for and should be monitoring against so those were the issues that we wanted them to be familiar with and what expertise did you have to be able to make a judgment on what matters arising from the fras should be the subject of course content
00:07:34 should be the subject of course content for training
00:07:36 um [Music]
00:07:41 [Music] well i i'd been dealing with the fras and the actions coming in from from the start of the program i'd been dealing with the assessors themselves on a regular basis if i had queries or concerns or
00:07:53 queries or concerns or things that i needed more knowledge or awareness of i would speak to them but i could also do my own research um i had a an overview of where there were problems where there were strengths where there were weaknesses so i worked
00:08:05 where there were weaknesses so i worked on that basis right um now can we then move to the question of specialized fire safety training for esa's
00:08:12 esa's yes caretakers for whatever better word um if you go to your july 2020 statement please that's at tm00847305 page 38.
00:08:29 paragraph 126 you say that i also recall that in december 2016 a half day training session was delivered to state services assistants presented by me with input from carl
00:08:40 presented by me with input from carl stokes
00:08:40 stokes to supplement the course information already provided i attached to this statement the case study on communal storage used in this course and a fire safety quiz used at the conclusion of this course
00:08:52 conclusion of this course why did you and carl stokes deliver that training
00:08:56 training um well i i thought it was important exactly what you were saying that the the state staff needed to have a very clear
00:09:03 clear understanding of what they should be monitoring and inspecting against and what they should be escalating we would periodically the fire risk assessments would identify communal storage issues
00:09:14 storage issues things that were really within in the first instance within the asset services assistance remit to to address um so we wanted to be clear that they were clear on standards
00:09:24 standards um and they were clear on when to escalate we also had um used as an opportunity um to use the adair fire and what we had learned from the adair fire well i was going to ask
00:09:35 the adair fire well i was going to ask you
00:09:35 you sorry i cut across you what was it that prompted
00:09:39 prompted this particular half-day training session in december 2016. um i mean we would run i would run training
00:09:47 training often less formal i would go to the estate services team meetings and have discussions with them and highlight things which were coming out in the fire risk assessments but we just felt it was appropriate to have a proper formal training course where
00:09:58 formal training course where you know we could engage with all of them together and see if there were issues that they were aware of that we perhaps could address to help them do their before form their role yes and just pinning you down a bit what was it that
00:10:09 pinning you down a bit what was it that made you feel at that point that it was as you put it appropriate to have a proper training course i'm i'm not i'm not really clear that there was something at that point it was
00:10:21 was something at that point it was something that we were always trying to work towards and and to um improve on in terms of briefing and training and um it just it felt like the right thing to do i'm not sure that there was a timing
00:10:32 i'm not sure that there was a timing issue that i can recall right okay now in your december 2020 statement that's at tm00887083
00:10:44 at page 8 paragraph 29 you say following
00:10:56 page 8 paragraph 29 you say following the adair tower fire it was recognized that it would be beneficial to provide our estate and neighborhood colleagues with additional fire safety training therefore i recall that we held a half day training course with the estate
00:11:07 day training course with the estate staff and some briefing sessions with the neighborhood teams are you referring there to the half day session in december 2016. yeah it seems like i am i see so that was a one-off training course held in
00:11:18 was a one-off training course held in response to the adef tower fire was it um as a site or as a reaction to it um we were regularly attending neighbourhood and team estate services team meetings
00:11:29 team estate services team meetings and so it was informal information gathering and briefings we wanted to do something more formal
00:11:37 formal so it certainly helped having all of the information on the identifier that we could fully brief them on so they had a very clear indication of of that where they fitted in the in the
00:11:48 of that where they fitted in the in the whole process can i show you cst4030s cst3030
00:12:00 this is a powerpoint on fire safety training that carl stokes provided to the inquiry for training he says was carried out on the 2nd of december 2016
00:12:11 the 2nd of december 2016 and it's headed fire safety training objectives and if we scroll down to page 2 you can see a photograph and a heading adair tower do you recognize this document yes it's
00:12:22 do you recognize this document yes it's my document oh you say it's your document yes so you prepared it did you yes i did i see uh did mr stoke contribute to it at all in any respect
00:12:33 contribute to it at all in any respect um not i
00:12:34 um not i i'm sure i would have shared it with him the actual sorry just to clarify the training was was something that i i set up and i prepared for i think i preferred all of the documentation but i would have
00:12:45 the documentation but i would have shared it with him um and he attended and was able to um without sort of formal documentation he was able to enhance what i was saying yes i see can we go to page 21 please
00:12:59 uh and if you look at that the heading is
00:13:02 is inspection requirements and why and if you look at the third bullet point down it says
00:13:08 it says esa responsibilities ongoing visual checks supply healthy no defect or defect highlighted in panel not vandalized damage etc no broken call points break glass units and then it says signage in place zone
00:13:21 and then it says signage in place zone chart
00:13:21 chart etc um and there's a picture on page 22 of
00:13:32 what looks like an alarm and on page 28 there's a there's a photograph of a fire safety sign my question is were esa's trained to
00:13:45 my question is were esa's trained to inspect
00:13:45 inspect floor numbering signage as well as fire safety sandwich um
00:13:54 i i can't really recall to be honest it looks like an omission from this as far as we can tell do you accept that um it probably isn't ex explicitly stated in here
00:14:06 stated in here um i i would think it likely that we did cover it verbally but it may not be in the powerpoint thank you now can we go to slide 24 please
00:14:26 here you can see
00:14:29 a list of inspection requirements for communal doors flat entrance doors requirements flat damaged flat entrance doors temporary doors
00:14:38 doors esa responsibilities and below that on page 25 you can see a photograph of a flat entrance door as you can on page 26.
00:14:51 you can on page 26. you can have that and 27. my question is were esa's advised about inspecting self-closing devices on communal doors
00:15:02 self-closing devices on communal doors yes on common doors they would have been and what about flat entrance doors um they would have understood the need to have
00:15:10 to have um a self-closer and where a resident raised an issue with them they could inspect it but they weren't it wasn't part of their remit to inspect self-closing devices in dwellings right now on the subject of
00:15:22 in dwellings right now on the subject of inspection can we look at slide 29 please tmo inspections procedures escalation how and when what works well and what could work better
00:15:33 better you see that yes was this um
00:15:45 uh what was the result of that what those are vague rather vague statements what procedures did you actually train your esa staff on
00:15:57 your esa staff on i think this was an opportunity to for the the usas to engage to clarify how their inspections were working and any issues that they had um whether they were
00:16:08 were whether the repairs were being done in a timely way whether the things they thought needed to be escalated it was an opportunity for for engagement we wanted the session to be very interactive um and it was important that it was um
00:16:21 um and it was important that it was um so this was a prompt really were these inspection procedures documented in anything um well they all so by that stage they were
00:16:32 well they all so by that stage they were using at the palm top the pda so their inspection um i believe they had a weekly and a monthly pro forma um which was embedded into their pda and that's where they recorded the outcome
00:16:43 that's where they recorded the outcome of their inspections right now we've seen
00:16:45 seen admittedly i think probably in passing um appendix one to the november 2013 uh first safety strategy which was still in force as of june 2017.
00:16:56 in force as of june 2017. yes that's the caretaker checklist isn't it that was that was in hard copy at that stage because they hadn't had their their pd their palm top how did that relate to esa inspection procedures
00:17:08 to esa inspection procedures and as part of the training you were giving in december 2016. well that's the whole whole basis of making sure that their inspection procedures are still appropriate that they're clear
00:17:19 are still appropriate that they're clear what to give priority that if there are things that they feel aren't given um due regard when they escalate them in terms of response times or whatever it was an opportunity for them to feedback to to to us so i can raise that with repairs
00:17:31 to us so i can raise that with repairs managers or whatever when you were training your esa staff did you have regard to
00:17:35 regard to the inspection and maintenance regime laid out
00:17:39 laid out in the lga guide yes you did yes now can i then turn to some questions on the emergency plan uh
00:17:55 i'd like to show you start to start perhaps in a rather basic place the fire safety order that's at hom 6040
00:18:09 and that's the first page of it can we go to page 12 in it article 15 the heading is procedures for serious and imminent danger and for danger areas
00:18:21 and imminent danger and for danger areas see that yes 15 1 the responsible person must
00:18:25 must and then it says establish and where necessary give effect to appropriate procedures including safety drills to be followed in the event of serious and imminent
00:18:33 imminent danger to relevant persons two nominate a sufficient number of competent persons to implement those procedures insofar as they relate to the evacuation of relevant persons from the premises and c ensure that no relevant person
00:18:47 and c ensure that no relevant person has access to any area to which it is necessary to restrict access on grounds of safety
00:18:52 of safety unless the person concerned has received adequate safety instruction can i assume that you were at all times aware of these requirements yes yes then let's look at the sleeping
00:19:03 yes yes then let's look at the sleeping guide next which is
00:19:07 rbk3036722 page 36
00:19:16 and on page 36 towards the foot of the screen
00:19:21 screen there's a heading emergency plans as paragraph
00:19:24 paragraph or section 4.2 which says this you need to have an emergency plan for dealing with any fire situation the purpose of an emergency plan is to ensure that people know what to do
00:19:36 ensure that people know what to do if there is a fire and that the premises can be safely evacuated just pausing there were you aware at all times of that piece of guidance yes yes page 37 next page
00:19:48 yes yes page 37 next page the guide continues in the third paragraph down in simple premises the emergency plan may be no more than a fire action notice in multiple sorry in multi occupied and
00:20:01 in multiple sorry in multi occupied and more complex premises the emergency plan will need to be more detailed and compiled only after consultation with other responsible people for example owners who have control over the building
00:20:11 building in most cases this means that an emergency plan covering the whole building
00:20:15 building will be necessary it will help if you can agree on one person to coordinate this task can i assume that similarly you were at all times
00:20:26 that similarly you were at all times conscious of that piece of guidance yes and then the lga guide at hom five nine six four at page 44
00:20:41 paragraph 34.3 which says in summary the fire risk assessment must consider
00:20:52 the general fire precautions defined in the fsa of these the principle ones for a purpose built block of flats are and then the fourth bullet point down says
00:21:02 down says an emergency plan including procedures for residents in the event of fire were you were at all times aware of that requirement or that piece of guidance you were and then if we go to page 118 please
00:21:17 and then if we go to page 118 please paragraph 79.1 under the heading preparing for emergencies it is a requirement of the fsa that there should be a suitable emergency plan for the premises rarely in purpose-built blocks of flats
00:21:28 rarely in purpose-built blocks of flats it would be necessary to have a more elaborate emergency plan than a simple fire action notice see appendix 5 for examples nor will it universe
00:21:35 universe be universally necessary to display such notices indeed it is more common not to display notices but to convey this information to tenants in other ways for example through residence handbooks and so forth
00:21:46 and so forth again were you aware of that guidance yes yes and then page 120 paragraph 79.12 in large more complex blocks of flats it
00:21:58 in large more complex blocks of flats it can be of great assistance to the fire and rescue service to keep plans on the premises
00:22:02 premises detailing information on the layout of the building and its services this can be helpful at the time of an incident in dealing with the emergency or again use of a premises information box
00:22:12 box at the main entrance is one way to achieve this again were you aware of that guidance yes yes now i just want to show you what dr lane
00:22:20 dr lane has said in her module 3 report at chapter 9. this is a blarp 6028 page 14
00:22:32 where she addresses grenfell tower in particular and at paragraph
00:22:38 2.2.23
00:22:42 sorry i think it's i think that's not it b l a r p
00:22:48 b l a r p two five zero is twenty eight i think i've confounded our operator but there it is um 2.2.23
00:23:01 um 2.2.23 grenfell tower it says read with me grenfell tower was a high-rise building with a shared single means of egress and multiple occupancy types residential and non-residential
00:23:12 types residential and non-residential the emergency plan for such a building would cover the residential portion of the building on upper levels as well as commercial tenancies on the lower levels including a boxing club and nursery granville tower she goes on
00:23:24 and nursery granville tower she goes on at 2.2.24
00:23:26 at 2.2.24 grenfell tower was provided with a complex smoke control system and its occupancy profile contained residents who required assistance in the event of a fire
00:23:33 a fire as well as non-residents and other relevant persons 2.2.25 on this basis and as i set out before in my phase 2 module 1 report regulation 38 fire
00:23:44 2 module 1 report regulation 38 fire safety information etc i would consider grenfell tower to be a complex building and i review the requirements for the emergency plan accordingly do you accept dr lane's
00:23:55 accordingly do you accept dr lane's opinion that grenfell tower should be considered a complex building particularly for the purposes of an emergency plan um i'm not sure that i do actually it's not
00:24:08 i'm not sure that i do actually it's not it was never the result of the fire risk assessment that it was considered to be a complex building and to the best of my knowledge it wasn't considered a complex building by the london fire brigade either
00:24:21 the london fire brigade either did you ever get an assurance or a statement from the lfb that for the for this purpose take even taking into account the factors that dr lane has taken into
00:24:32 the factors that dr lane has taken into account grenfell tower was not a complex building
00:24:35 building i didn't get such an assurance now did you ever ask for one no no did you ever take any specific advice
00:24:41 advice from any fire safety professional about whether or not for the purposes of an emergency plan grenfell tower should be considered a complex building in light of the factors dr lane has identified i may have had a conversation with mr
00:24:54 i may have had a conversation with mr stokes
00:24:54 stokes um but i don't believe i did more than that right if i could just add complex buildings in terms of our discussions with a fire
00:25:05 terms of our discussions with a fire brigade
00:25:06 brigade usually we're restricted to trellic tower because trellic tower didn't have a repeat structure layout on each floor so you actually didn't know what was
00:25:17 so you actually didn't know what was behind the door when you knocked on a flat it could have been a masonite it could have been a downstairs or an upstairs so that was really quite complex building and for that purpose that was the one building that the fire brigade had requested we
00:25:28 that the fire brigade had requested we have a premises information box in where we can where we had plans so they could very clearly take the plans to the floor and go yep that's what i need and this is and three doors along is the adjoining property so they had asked and we'd had
00:25:41 property so they had asked and we'd had discussions and i think we'd had that in place from about 2013 2014 and they'd also undertaken a familiarization um at that block and they were happy
00:25:52 um at that block and they were happy with the contents that we put into the premises information box but they asked for a second copy of plans so that their crews on the fire floor and at the base and control would would
00:26:03 and at the base and control would would have a set each so so we had had discussions about complex buildings and it was on our radar but that was the only one that the fire brigade had requested and that's what we had put in place
00:26:12 place yes i see so can we take it from that answer that at least from i think you say 2013 2014 you knew
00:26:19 you knew you knew of the concept of a complex building
00:26:22 building yes and you knew that trellic tower because of what the lfb had told you was such a building yes did you ever think
00:26:29 think in light of knowing that such a concept existed that you ought to review the other potentially more complex buildings in the estate to see whether they were complex such as
00:26:41 to see whether they were complex such as to
00:26:41 to require further and more detailed emergency plans yes and we would have had discussions with the fire brigade about whether they wanted us to extend provision of premises
00:26:52 to extend provision of premises information boxes and i recall that um one of the things that happened after the findings of black and all was there was actually a pilot
00:27:03 was there was actually a pilot of um it was i think it was called a fire safety plate um and the fire brigade worked with a few local authorities to trial where they um erected on the face of a number of
00:27:15 face of a number of particularly high-rise buildings a plate with some basic fire information in relation to that building and
00:27:21 and the liaison meeting minutes will reflect that i kept asking for the feedback from the outcome of that six-month pilot and ultimately i was told that there was
00:27:32 and ultimately i was told that there was no action for landlords it was really more virtual information that the fire brigade were storing on their system so at that point they still weren't requesting anything more than what we already had in place we'll come to premises information boxes
00:27:43 we'll come to premises information boxes much later in your evidence but for the present purposes i'm interested in the emergency plan specifically coming back to uh dr lane's opinion do you not accept that in the given the
00:27:55 do you not accept that in the given the factors that she's identified which i've read out to you grandfather should have been considered a complex building um i'm i'm not confident that i do agree
00:28:06 um i'm i'm not confident that i do agree because of the discussions that we'd had the ongoing discussions with the fire brigade
00:28:10 brigade as the fire and rescue service so um i'm not
00:28:14 not absolutely convinced that i agree right now
00:28:18 now um can we go back to the sleeping guide please
00:28:21 please rbk three zero three six seven two two page one one two
00:28:32 and go to paragraph 7.2 please on the right hand side emergency plans uh this says there's a lot in it um but you can see that that there's
00:28:43 um but you can see that that there's guidance
00:28:45 guidance about what your emergency plan should be appropriate to your premises and and could include and then there's a long list
00:28:51 long list of some 16 items in in full down on the right hand column of page one one two over to page one one three uh i'm not going to read them all out to you and again were you aware of that
00:29:02 you and again were you aware of that guidance
00:29:03 guidance yeah were you aware that your emergency plan should be appropriate to grenfell tower your emergency plan for grenfell tower should be appropriate to that building
00:29:12 building yes yes uh and did you ever sit down with grenfell in mind and and go through this list this long
00:29:23 and and go through this list this long list
00:29:24 list of things that could be included in your emergency plan
00:29:33 did i and you may find it one you may find one or two but did you actually ever undertake a holistic examination of your emergency plan for grenfell tower to see whether
00:29:45 tower to see whether these matters had been included i'm sure i would have considered them but i don't know that i can confirm what you've asked me that i undertook a holistic view in relation to that specific block and it's fair to say i think you can
00:29:56 and it's fair to say i think you can agree with me that an emergency plan that
00:29:58 that that met all of these points or catered for all of these points would be a document of some substance wouldn't it yes potentially and it would need to be building specific wouldn't it clearly
00:30:09 specific wouldn't it clearly um i think it's fair to say that we had very few building specific emergency plans i think that is fair to say yes um because the majority of our buildings
00:30:22 because the majority of our buildings were
00:30:23 were purpose-built um and we were governed by the lga guide we were we were influenced by the we we've felt that that was the appropriate guidance to apply
00:30:33 apply so as you know they had a stay put strategy
00:30:37 strategy and we outlined the secret strategy in a variety of ways and we the fire brigade were aware that that was our strategy we would have regular discussions with them about that our position was
00:30:50 them about that our position was that it's to stay put strategy at the first thing you're dwelling on i'm going to catch you off mr straight because we are going to come in some detail step by step to to to how the stay put fits
00:30:58 fits um but i think you agree that an emergency plan that that catered for all of these would be a building specific and hefty document
00:31:09 and hefty document potentially there'll be some themes which are common across all of all of the stock yes um yes now let's let's look at sal 6013 please this is the document we
00:31:22 6013 please this is the document we looked at on the first day of your evidence which is salvas's review of the tmos fire risk management system um on the 22nd or date of the 22nd of september 2009
00:31:33 september 2009 there it is on page one can we go to page 11 please in that document and there you'll see under paragraph 9
00:31:42 page 11 paragraph 9. emergency procedures and evacuation plans
00:31:49 plans and at 9 1 it says lack of stroke inadequate emergency plans and then in the
00:31:58 in the bullets under the existing control measures it says it is noted uh from the estate staff quick reference handbook that there is a generic
00:32:09 there is a generic documented emergency plan this was not available for review at the time of the assessment and therefore uh could not be uh therefore could not be confirmed that it's in a
00:32:20 be confirmed that it's in a accord with recommendations as set out in hm government guidance section 7.2 tmo staff who receive fire safety training are trained to implement local firefighting actions using portable fire
00:32:32 firefighting actions using portable fire extinguishers where they are present at the time and they consider it is safe to do so now as far as you are aware were there any building specific emergency plans used by the tmo as at
00:32:43 emergency plans used by the tmo as at september 2009
00:32:46 we had our minor emergency plan the the principal part part one relates to cascades and how we deal with emergencies during working day and out
00:32:58 emergencies during working day and out of hours
00:32:59 of hours part two was the bit where we tried to retain a level of information specific to the block which would potentially help the emergency services um
00:33:10 um i believe that was in that was available in 2009
00:33:15 in 2009 i know there are issues with the part two not having been updated um but that was that was around yes um well we're going to look at that document um very shortly just said that
00:33:27 document um very shortly just said that the transcript has it uh it it appears to be
00:33:36 tmo10013898 and we'll come back to that in a moment but if that's that's the that's the document you're talking about yes i believe it's a two-part document yes yes now if you look at the
00:33:49 yes yes now if you look at the column in this document headed risk category with controls nine one is given a high risk category isn't it
00:33:56 isn't it yes now if you look at paragraph nine point three lack of a lack of or inadequate procedure for disabled and or vulnerable persons
00:34:04 persons it says in the middle column information as to the location of vulnerable persons appears to be collated by tmo it could not be confirmed if the information relating to the location of vulnerable persons is up to date
00:34:15 vulnerable persons is up to date there does not appear to be any formal procedures in place to deal effectively with fire safety issues associated with disabled
00:34:22 disabled or vulnerable people and again that's got a high risk category hasn't it yes and further action is required now if we skip forward to the action plan which follows
00:34:33 forward to the action plan which follows this risk assessment it's the same document but page 18 in it row 9.1 you can see there amber it is strongly recommended that
00:34:46 amber it is strongly recommended that tmo seek confirmation that all emergency plans are in accord with recommendations as set out in the hm
00:34:52 hm government guidance section 7.2 and where found not to be so that adjustments are made as necessary to fully comply with this guidance
00:35:03 fully comply with this guidance now section 7.2 is what i read to you on the right-hand side of the page of the sleeping guide with those 16 bullet points in it so it's clear from that
00:35:14 that that salvas have fastened on the fact that
00:35:17 that there's a deficiency um given that deficiency was that recommendation ever actioned to your knowledge
00:35:30 your knowledge we had a variety of ways of advising residents of the fire procedures and the emergency plans um and that probably changed over time
00:35:41 um and that probably changed over time we had a residence handbook we we provided quite a lot of fire safety information which included fire procedures um that people should follow we also ultimately had information on the website we did
00:35:52 the website we did regular as as a result of this we had written an article in our link magazine
00:35:59 magazine which we would supplement with further link articles which i believe had the opportunity for people to ask for them in different languages there were there
00:36:10 in different languages there were there were a variety things going on in addition my colleagues in housing management were looking to identify provide obtain more information about vulnerability of the residents in stock so there were a
00:36:21 the residents in stock so there were a variety of things going on in order to help us to comply with this yes
00:36:26 yes a variety of things going on maybe one thing
00:36:30 thing what i'm asking you is whether the tmo ever carried into effect the recommendation that it confirmed that all emergency plans
00:36:41 plans a document was in accordance with section 72 of the sleeping guide did that happen no it didn't not in that thank you why not um because because we were trying to
00:36:54 um because because we were trying to tackle it
00:36:55 tackle it the best way that we could which is provide information to residents obtain information about their vulnerability identify those who need assistance and um target target then meet with them
00:37:07 and um target target then meet with them see what help they they need there were there were things going on to meet it but not
00:37:11 but not as it stays there but things going on to meet it
00:37:14 meet it is all very well but that's not what you're recommended to do what i'm not really understanding and it may be my fault miss ray is is why the tmo simply didn't go to the emergency plans for each building in its stock uh look
00:37:27 for each building in its stock uh look at section 72 and the emergency plans and bring the emergency plans in line with section 72 for each building why why didn't it do that i suspect it was a resource
00:37:38 was a resource issue right that's a huge bit of work it is
00:37:41 is it may not it may or may not be depending on the building but did you ever actually investigate the or look for a budget or resource for that particular task i can't recall i i think we felt we were
00:37:52 i can't recall i i think we felt we were moving it forward in the best ways that we could with the resources we had available
00:37:56 available in order to provide better communications and a variety of communications which hopefully be accessible to people we had colleagues who were looking to glean as much information about
00:38:08 glean as much information about occupancy profiling and we were looking to have contact with people who needed more advice needed needed more guidance needed more clarity so we were trying to meet it within the resources that we had
00:38:19 within the resources that we had available
00:38:20 available in a variety of ways that's a different point though isn't it really what mr millet is
00:38:24 millet is asking you to consider and perhaps you've already answered this question is whether you carried out a comparison between the uh the emergency plan for each building and the guidance that's a paper job yeah
00:38:37 and the guidance that's a paper job yeah and i don't recall doing it i'd have to be honest thank you can we look at 9.3 i'm sorry mr chairman did you know 9.3 same page page 18. it is strongly
00:38:49 9.3 same page page 18. it is strongly recommended that tmo consider development of formal procedures to deal effectively with fire safety issues associated with disabled or vulnerable tenants
00:38:57 tenants and leaseholders and also any employees this should include a range of options from relocation in severe cases with or without potential property adaptations and fixed fire suppression systems to the provision of specific
00:39:09 the provision of specific personal emergency evacuation plans in those less serious cases she also recommendations in hm government guidance and building regulations approved document m
00:39:21 now you can see from that that that got a a priority rating four but a red you see yes so that was high risk now formal procedures to deal effectively with fire safety issues
00:39:32 effectively with fire safety issues associated with disabled or vulnerable tenants leaseholders and employees was that ever done in the context of the emergency plan or an emergency plan for any building
00:39:47 so the answer to your question is no not directly but to give context as as i stated my housing colleagues were attempting to
00:40:00 housing colleagues were attempting to get information on the vulnerability of the residents um our position on this was that the housing colleagues were the people in regular dialogue with their tenants
00:40:12 in regular dialogue with their tenants and their leaseholders they knew to refer any health and safety or fire safety concerns or issues that were
00:40:18 were expressed to them to me and to adrian and when they came to our attention we would investigate further and there were a number of people a small number of people
00:40:30 people a small number of people for whom peeps were drafted there were a number of people who had sensory issues where their means of being alerted to a fire was
00:40:37 fire was um was amended so that it suited them we worked with some hoarding people in order to provide earlier warning there were a variety of things that we were doing in order to to meet this requirement yes
00:40:49 in order to to meet this requirement yes but as you can see the recommendation which is strong with a red is that the tmo considered development of formal procedures did the tmo
00:41:00 of formal procedures did the tmo ever consider the development of formal procedures to deal with fire safety issues associated with disabled or vulnerable tenants or these holders um
00:41:10 um not formal procedures as such i we there was always a recognition and and certainly i've got disabled colleagues for whom we did carry out peeps so we were aware of the peak process and there were a number of
00:41:21 peak process and there were a number of residents for whom that was done but we were always mindful of the fact that we didn't have any staff or any resident staff so we would be quite restricted in what we could offer that didn't stop
00:41:33 in what we could offer that didn't stop us doing it that's why we were trying to give people who
00:41:38 who if they needed better means of being alerted to a fire could could
00:41:44 could evacuate themselves or at least get themselves to another compartment we were working along those bases because we we felt that that was that would help and meet meet the requirements right i mean the
00:41:55 meet the requirements right i mean the answer to my question is no so the next question is did the tmo actively decide not to develop formal procedures as strongly recommended or did it fall by the wayside
00:42:07 the wayside it didn't just i don't believe there was a decision um ever to not develop formal procedures it's it's quite a complex area and
00:42:18 it's it's quite a complex area and sometimes we don't we didn't have significant information about the occupancy profile so that's one issue as i've said we didn't have any resident staff so we have a resource issue with what we could
00:42:29 a resource issue with what we could offer in terms of assisting people it was it was going to be a challenge it wasn't something it would have been very easy to put something in writing as a formal procedure that we couldn't actually effect and we were mindful of
00:42:41 actually effect and we were mindful of that so we were trying to make sure that what we could offer was something that we had the wherewithal to support right well we'll come back to see what you did do later on i'm sticking with
00:42:52 you did do later on i'm sticking with the concept or some topic of emergency plans for the moment if we may um the we go then to tm010013898 it's the reference i gave earlier and i
00:43:05 it's the reference i gave earlier and i just want to identify first what we're looking at
00:43:11 this is page one kc tmo emergency plan uh if we go to page three we can see that there is a cascade of dates for revisions there version one august 2004
00:43:23 there version one august 2004 revised may 2009 may 2015 february 2016. is that the two-part document that you were referring to earlier yes yes now
00:43:33 now first whose responsibility was it to maintain and update this document it actually sat with adrian my colleague
00:43:42 was that a decision or was that just how it was
00:43:47 it was um who decided that he as opposed to you should be responsible for maintaining and updating this document actually it was his document because it was originally drafted when i was absent for a period of time
00:44:00 was absent for a period of time um and he took ownership of it he was also the person who was um involved in our um duty out of ours rotor from quite an
00:44:11 duty out of ours rotor from quite an early stage when i when i wasn't so it was it was um yeah it was something that he led on i i kind of would catch up with him occasionally and say these people have moved to
00:44:22 these people have moved to uh or left the organization or joined or whatever are the cascades up to date to pinnacle have copies and sort of touch him with him but largely adrian when he drafted it did you supervise his drafting of it um as i say when it when he drafted it i
00:44:34 as i say when it when he drafted it i i was not around for a period who was his line manager so far as this exercise was concerned when that happened
00:44:41 happened actually it was when i was on maternity leave and i can't recall because i i it's such a long time ago well sorry august 2004 um i think that the the drafting started earlier than that
00:44:52 earlier than that right but um you come to me but i can't sorry i can't recall nonetheless come may 2009
00:44:57 may 2009 uh can we take the u.s family back in the saddle uh and supervise the uh updating of this document at that stage um yeah i didn't scrutinize it and it
00:45:08 um yeah i didn't scrutinize it and it was something that that adrian led on you say he led on it you were his line manager weren't you yes yes so he would lead on the on on drafting it but didn't you oversee it
00:45:19 on drafting it but didn't you oversee it supervise it approve it sign it off well yes but it's a huge document i wouldn't have looked in detail at every single
00:45:26 single pro forma that's attached right what about the first part would you have looked in detail at that yes of course the first part was the one bit that we confidently kept up to date right and now you can see the revision
00:45:39 right and now you can see the revision dates there they appear to be rather random can you explain how frequently was the emergency plan supposed to be updated um or was there no set i don't believe
00:45:50 um or was there no set i don't believe there was a set i mean the part one which obviously reflected the cascades the in um in working hours and networking hours cascades
00:45:58 cascades was crucial to be kept up to date and it was always being updated i think these dates refer to um the the subsequent performers now you can see the first one was dated
00:46:09 now you can see the first one was dated august 2004 that's before the rra came into
00:46:12 into into force isn't it yes uh uh do you know what
00:46:15 know what triggered the creation of the document at that date that stage i don't i think um i think we realized that it was something that we needed we needed to um produce um but
00:46:27 we needed to um produce um but i'm not sure there was particularly a trigger we've been aware of it some time but it was quite a big piece of work and it was finding the time to now in may 2009 the sleeping guide had been in force so far as guidance is ever in
00:46:39 in force so far as guidance is ever in force
00:46:39 force for some three years was the emergency plan updated to reflect in any way the requirements of the sleeping guide i'm not convinced it wasn't no uh and may 2015 you've now got not only the
00:46:51 may 2015 you've now got not only the sleeping guide but the lga guidance was there
00:46:53 there was a revision or review done of the existing
00:46:57 existing government uh or local government guidance at that stage so to make sure that the emergency plan reflected it um i'm not confident that happened either and what triggered the revision
00:47:08 either and what triggered the revision in may
00:47:08 in may sorry in february 2016 only some nine months or so after the previous revision i'm sorry i i can't recall all right um now do you remember whether the emergency plan
00:47:19 remember whether the emergency plan um was supposed to be relied on for dealing with a fire um it was a minor emergency plan so it was for minor
00:47:30 so it was for minor incidents within the housing stock it could well have been a fire it could have been an outage of of one of the utilities um it could have been a leak or a flood or a variety of
00:47:41 or a variety of um it could have been a crying whatever when you say it was a minor emergency plan do you mean it was overall a minor emergency plan or just the part dealing with fire no i mean it was an emergency plan for
00:47:53 no i mean it was an emergency plan for the tmo
00:47:54 the tmo to deal with minor emergencies because anything more than a minor emergency particularly where rehousing was required would not have been able to be provided within the resources the tml
00:48:06 provided within the resources the tml had access to can you just help me with this on the faces having looked at the front page it is a sort of tmo wide emergency plan
00:48:17 is a sort of tmo wide emergency plan was it approved by someone at a more senior level um it was certainly went up to executive team
00:48:25 team um and i believe some of the executive team kept a hard copy at home just in case
00:48:30 case something happened but when you say that it was drafted by mr bowman yes that's that's literally the case he he formulated it but it was actually approved by the executive team
00:48:41 actually approved by the executive team is that right yes i believe it must have been um because yeah and we revised it actually sorry can i go back um i i suspect the revision in february
00:48:53 um i i suspect the revision in february 2016
00:48:54 2016 the end of october 2015. yes sorry i didn't pick up on that at first apologies
00:48:58 apologies um yeah yeah you're right they were in fact that answers your question also um i recall that after the adair fire it was one of the things that we wanted to to look at was our the emergency
00:49:09 to look at was our the emergency response um and there were meetings with the council because they had sent their lelo um and the executive team then re-looked at our approach to dealing with
00:49:20 at our approach to dealing with emergencies out of ours um and there were there may have been some tweaks so apologies thank you now you you said um before the chairman's question that
00:49:31 um before the chairman's question that this was a minor emergency plan to do with minor emergencies i'd can i just show you page 13 of this document
00:49:37 document um on page 13 part 1 kctma emergency planning and in the third paragraph
00:49:48 uh well the first paragraph it says these procedures aim to provide a framework for effectively managing emergencies on kctml estates and properties and then the third paragraph neighboring areas will be expected to assist as
00:50:00 areas will be expected to assist as necessary in the event of a major emergency
00:50:03 emergency and then if you go down to emergency plan
00:50:07 plan in the heading below it it says this sets out the roles and responsibilities within the kctma in the event of a major incident which is defined as a major incident or natural disaster
00:50:18 a major incident or natural disaster resulting in either death injury or serious disruption to normal life which would acutely stretch the kctm's resources which may ultimately overwhelm the kctma's capacity to manage without assistance from the council
00:50:30 assistance from the council uh now it doesn't look from that that this was
00:50:33 this was intended only to deal with minor emergencies this looks pretty major is um we we had we had um limited capacity as
00:50:44 we we had we had um limited capacity as it says here to deal with uh anything beyond a certain level but that didn't mean that we wouldn't make staff available to assist the council um no but what i'm putting to you is when you said that it was a
00:50:55 when you said that it was a an emergency plan to deal with minor emergencies that's not right is it looking at what i've just shown you
00:51:09 looking at what i've just shown you um well that it that's it was always intended to be a minor emergency plan because we knew our limitations and we knew um and because the council was the freeholder for the stock and
00:51:20 freeholder for the stock and had a much more comprehensive emergency plan and access to significantly more resources particularly in terms of free housing then we wouldn't it wouldn't be reasonable to expect us
00:51:31 it wouldn't be reasonable to expect us to do more than we could well if the emergency plan was only intended to deal with minor emergencies why is there a reference to dealing with major incidents and a quotation from the london emergency plan
00:51:43 quotation from the london emergency plan about that
00:51:46 um can i scroll down a bit please yes that's page three we can look at the bottom of page 13 please that that can be
00:51:56 can be looked at okay i suppose it's got to be right in conjunction with the reference to that
00:52:02 to that the local authority's definition that a major incident um clearly if our resources are overwhelmed then then we we would need to revert
00:52:14 then then we we would need to revert to rbkc and we we don't have a significant amount of resource um so when i say minor that doesn't mean it's
00:52:24 it's it's difficult to define it's it's just trying to set out what we could do within the resources we had in the event of emergency and beyond that that would have to be escalated to the borough now if we go um to fire itself we can
00:52:37 now if we go um to fire itself we can see that there is a reference in this to uh fire on page 34 where there's a checklist for fire we can just go to that and uh it says checklist fire
00:52:49 and uh it says checklist fire and then there's a what you might call a cascade of questions and events and item seven question seven is will residents have to be
00:52:56 be evacuated action liaison with on-site staff
00:53:00 staff so clearly the emergency plan did contemplate a fire and within the context of a fire did contemplate the possibility of the
00:53:12 did contemplate the possibility of the evacuation of residents didn't it um well that's always a possibility depending whether the fire brigade's
00:53:18 brigade's decision once they've arrived and done their assessment is is to evacuate um yes but all i'm asking all i'm putting to you is that within this emergency plan fire is included and within that
00:53:30 included and within that the possibility of evacuation of residents yes as you can see but can i just
00:53:34 just say that most of this is written really for the duty officer so um it's questions for for the duty officer
00:53:43 officer who who's on duty when the incident happens to think okay have i done this have i consulted this person who'd have i needed to advise and so
00:53:51 so um will residents be evacuated the way that that
00:53:54 that that the person who's remote and on duty that evening will get that information is by liaising with the on-site staff i'm just clarifying that yes thank you and then if we go to page 39 you can see part two property details
00:54:06 39 you can see part two property details that's just the heading for part two which then follows and within that part if we go to police to page 145
00:54:17 this is the part of part two which deals with or covers grenfell tower lancaster west can you see yes and um this was this intended to be a building
00:54:30 this was this intended to be a building specific emergency plan for grenfell tower it was intended to collate relevant information that the emergency services or anybody
00:54:43 that the emergency services or anybody else would require so it was meant to be a source of information and contribute to emergency planning right just looking at page one page 145 you can see
00:54:54 one page 145 you can see that the number of dwellings is 120. it's right isn't it that uh as at may 2015 and certainly by february 2016 it was 129. wasn't it yes
00:55:05 2016 it was 129. wasn't it yes this i mean i think i think everyone is aware that this wasn't updated when it should have been yes yes and indeed that's already been found um but can you explain why
00:55:17 um but can you explain why this was never updated and indeed does not appear to have been updated completely for many years um no other than um it was something that adrian and i discussed the need to do we he
00:55:28 discussed the need to do we he we he was very mindful of keeping the cascades up to date because that impacted on who got called when there was an emergency and instigated a whole load of processes which were really
00:55:39 which were really important um and we knew this needed to be updated and it just it just never quite got to the top of his agenda unfortunately did did you
00:55:51 unfortunately did did you or adrian bowman ever consider whether this emergency plan so to speak for grenfell tower or indeed any of the others
00:56:00 others in part two of this document uh met the guidance contained in section 7.2 of the sleeping guide that we looked at earlier no i don't believe we did why is that i i can't give you an answer
00:56:11 why is that i i can't give you an answer i
00:56:12 i i should think yeah we certainly should have played in reference to it but but um and you know many of our blocks were purpose-built so it wouldn't be the only guide that we would have referred to
00:56:23 to well there may be purpose built but they wouldn't all be purpose built in exactly the same way would they well no but that's why there was a specific pro forma for each of the major blocks exactly yes so there's nothing
00:56:34 blocks exactly yes so there's nothing here for example about how people would be warned in the event of a fire or what residents should do if they discover a fire arrangements for safe evacuation or any of the other matters in the
00:56:45 or any of the other matters in the sleeping guide paragraph 7.2 we looked at
00:56:47 at dealing with what should happen to residents in the event of a fire no but we've been publicizing information on um
00:56:55 on um on the emergency plan on the procedure to follow on causes of fire and what to do about them in the handbook in the link in all of the other publications to new residents whenever they they sign
00:57:06 to new residents whenever they they sign up etc
00:57:07 up etc so so there is something happening i take your point that it's not joined up but we we do have methods of communicating with residents about their procedure um and yes this this is clearly is
00:57:19 um and yes this this is clearly is outstanding yes i mean not to be too fine to point out miss ray this document was not only never updated but was woefully inadequate given the
00:57:30 but was woefully inadequate given the requirements of section 7.2 of the sleeping guide which by february 2016 had been around for 10 years or so and the requirements of the lga and also
00:57:41 and the requirements of the lga and also the requirements of the recommendations by salvas in 2009. yeah yeah and can you account for that no
00:57:49 no um i want now to turn please to the question of evacuation planning can we look at a copy of the lga guidance at hom3045964
00:58:06 uh and uh if we gave police to page 27 in that
00:58:10 in that document we can see section 18 the guidance
00:58:13 guidance relating to evacuation strategy
00:58:18 and at section 18 3 you can see that it says this
00:58:27 this is the essence of the stay put principle
00:58:30 principle and there's this i think is compartmentation referred to in the previous sub-paragraphs and quote it has underpinned fire safety design standards from even before the 1960s
00:58:39 1960s when national standards were first drafted it is still the basis upon which blocks of flats are designed today in the majority of existing blocks it remains entirely valid
00:58:50 it remains entirely valid number 18 4 inevitably fires do occur in which for operational reasons the fire and rescue service decides to evacuate others in the building fires have been known to spread beyond the flat of origin to involve other flats or to spread
00:59:02 to involve other flats or to spread across the tops of blocks through the roof voids in these cases total evacuation of the block has sometimes been necessary fortunately these fires are rare they are usually the fault of failings in the construction now
00:59:15 of failings in the construction now as you can see the guidance recognizes that even though there is a state policy in place for any given building there are always going to be instances
00:59:26 there are always going to be instances where total evacuation is necessary sometimes necessary you see that yes were you aware of that concept or exceptional concept before the fire at grenfell in june 2017
00:59:38 the fire at grenfell in june 2017 yes yes now then let's having shown you that
00:59:42 that let's then look at the 2013 fire safety strategy that you drafted in the november of that year tmo double zero eight three zero five nine eight it's a document we've
00:59:54 five nine eight it's a document we've looked at a number of times now i'd now like to look at it for a different purpose page 10 please paragraph 15.1 and at the foot of the screen it says
01:00:05 and at the foot of the screen it says stay put stroke defend in place strategy the fra confirms the appropriate evacuation strategy for the block overwhelmingly a stay put straight
01:00:16 overwhelmingly a stay put straight defending place has been highlighted as the appropriate strategy for our blocks and the lfb have been made aware of this specifically this means that only the residents in the flat where the fire breaks out are initially
01:00:27 where the fire breaks out are initially required to evacuate this is because the compartmentation both between the flats and also between the flats and the common parts of the block
01:00:33 block are considered to be sufficient to withstand fire for a significant period this is communicated to residents by a variety of means residence handbook website
01:00:41 website the link magazine etc
01:00:46 and
01:00:50 it goes on underneath that later on to deal with um doors now was it your understanding that the staple policy was contingent on
01:01:01 that the staple policy was contingent on compartmentation in the building being maintained yes did you recognize that there may also sometimes they be cases where compartmentation may fail yeah there may be absolutely yes did you
01:01:14 yeah there may be absolutely yes did you understand at the time that in such a case it would be necessary to organize a partial or total evacuation of the building it would be necessary for the fire brigade to come
01:01:24 to come and make an assessment and if they um decided that partial or total evacuation was required then then they would instigate that as the fire and rescue service and that's
01:01:35 service and that's the information that i would generally convey to residents when i was explaining the staple strategy right can you explain why there's no provision in this document for any form of evacuation in the event of
01:01:47 evacuation in the event of a fire notwithstanding the fact that as we've seen in paragraph 18.4 of the lga guide
01:01:53 guide there may very well be cases where compartmentation fails and a total or partial evacuation of a building may be necessary because that would be controlled by the fire and rescue service
01:02:04 fire and rescue service right so so the staff may assist sorry to cut across you our staff if we have stuff available and the fire brigade require their assistance would be there to assist but that would
01:02:16 would be there to assist but that would be the fire and rescue services decision for what action to take and they would instigate it yes but this is a fire safety strategy for your buildings but also for the
01:02:28 for your buildings but also for the people living in them yes yes yes and therefore the question isn't so much who takes control of the building and the occupants it's what residents know what to do
01:02:41 it's what residents know what to do in the event that stay put for any building remains untenable either holy or partly
01:02:45 or partly and sorry that was the point i'm making that when i communicate with residents this is an internal strategy that goes to the fire brigade doesn't particularly go to residence when i communicate with residents
01:02:55 residents i'm always very clear that stay put means if your flat is not affected by fire you should initially be safe to stay put however if you choose to leave you can
01:03:06 to leave you can when the fire brigade attend they will make an assessment and if they feel a partial or total evacuation is required then they will lead on that that's always what i have put in my communication with residents
01:03:19 communication with residents and residents probably would never have seen this strategy so that's why it isn't covered in here so can we take it from that answer that as i think you accept
01:03:30 answer that as i think you accept the tmos fire safety strategy never contained anything which would contemplate a total or partial evacuation of the first of of any building in the event of a fire because that was regarded essentially as the lfb's business not
01:03:42 essentially as the lfb's business not the tma's business well i wouldn't put it quite like that but you're right it's not explicitly stated
01:03:49 stated now um you've referred to the adair tower fire in october 2015 a number of times
01:03:55 times um it's right isn't it that at that far the lfb organized a partial evacuation from the building having abandoned stay put in part total evacuation i believe or even total
01:04:07 total evacuation i believe or even total i think in fact it's part but never mind that doesn't matter but the fact is it happened isn't it yes right and also in april 2017 do you remember that uh the fire at relic tower yes uh
01:04:18 uh the fire at relic tower yes uh occasioned a partial evacuation yes and some of the residents self-evacuated i think the fire brigade evacuated
01:04:25 evacuated very small number of dwellings in the in the staircase yes so can we can we take it from that that by june 2017 you you not only knew but had experience of the fact that stay put was not an
01:04:36 the fact that stay put was not an immutable
01:04:37 immutable and unchangeable strategy that was on occasions departed from by the tia by the afb
01:04:44 the afb yes and that's the point i'm making that's that's their judgment they're they're the professionals they're the emergency services so that's their judgment when they come to do their most appropriate thing let me put it slightly differently um
01:04:55 let me put it slightly differently um notwithstanding the way in which paragraph 18.4 of the lga
01:05:00 lga guidance is phrased which is sometimes you need
01:05:04 you need a partial or total evacuation notwithstanding the presence of a state but policy in a building in fact by june 2017 you personally have had experience of two
01:05:16 have had experience of two total or partial evacuations in your blocks
01:05:19 blocks um yes yes and in both cases certainly in the trellic case the fire was contained within within the dwelling so that was a choice that the brigade made and that's entirely the point that i'm making that that is for them to make
01:05:31 i'm making that that is for them to make a judgment and if they feel that's the appropriate thing to do there the emergency services sorry sorry i'm yes i'm putting to you something much more simple which is the rarity factor
01:05:42 which is the rarity factor you knew by june 2017 the abandoning stay put holy or partly was not never neverland it sometimes happened and it happened to you twice yes i think everybody knows that yeah
01:05:53 yes i think everybody knows that yeah well thank you um and so the next question is let's then look at the 2017 fire safety strategy
01:06:00 strategy which was uh examined and i think signed off
01:06:04 off uh by the executive team the day before the file on the 13th of june
01:06:12 june 2017 tmo double zero eight four seven three two
01:06:16 three two four
01:06:20 that's the first page i'd like to show you page 10 paragraph 15.1
01:06:29 and just read it to yourself please if you would very quickly or or slowly take as long as you like over it
01:06:36 over it my question is do you accept that the text
01:06:39 text of paragraph 15 1 was the same as had been in the 2013 predecessor yes yes and the question then is why was the 2017
01:06:49 2017 fire safety strategy not updated to provide guidance uh on when partial or total evacuation should take place following a fire in order to reflect the experiences at
01:07:00 in order to reflect the experiences at air tower and trellic tower um i'm i'm not really clear why i didn't explain it
01:07:12 and if we look at the june 2016 fra that's a year before this document for grenfell tower itself uh this is at cst
01:07:26 403145
01:07:31 um that's as you can see the june 2016 fra for grenfell done by carl stakes the last one he did before the fire if we go to page five in that document
01:07:42 if we go to page five in that document it sets out uh what he calls the evacuation strategy for this building you can see it there at the foot of your screen and he says there uh for the residents of this building
01:07:53 uh for the residents of this building there is a state evacuation strategy this means the residents can remain within their dwelling during a fire incident in the building unless the fire is in the their dwelling or that their dwelling is otherwise affected by the fire
01:08:05 affected by the fire in which case they should immediately evacuate their dwelling and call the fire and rescue service the fire the fire service all tmo employees will arrange for a general evacuation of the whole building at any time if
01:08:16 of the whole building at any time if this is appropriate to do so did you provide that information or that statement to carl stokes to include in his fire risk assessments
01:08:27 include in his fire risk assessments no
01:08:32 uh well you say no so your evidence is that that was something he came up with is that right um yeah it's not my statement i i no but did that's not quite my question
01:08:44 no but did that's not quite my question my question is is he reflecting something you told him um what i was going to say is just to refer back to what i said before that if there was going to be an evacuation of the building and we had staff in the vicinity um they would assist the
01:08:57 in the vicinity um they would assist the emergency services as required they wouldn't instigate um an evacuation certainly not a fire related evacuation there may have been another kind of evacuation that was required because of
01:09:09 evacuation that was required because of i don't know because of power outage or because of of some other or i don't know carbon monoxide leak or a number of reasons in which case um staff would be brought from across the borough and and
01:09:21 brought from across the borough and and would actually have to to door knock and assist people and do do the best they could but no that's not my
01:09:26 my statement no i can unders i certainly can understand that in the event of and the need for evacuation because of something to do with something else like a flood or a gas leak where the
01:09:37 like a flood or a gas leak where the fire service may not be involved that is one thing but this is dealing with fire isn't it this is what should happen in the event of a fire
01:09:46 in the event of a fight i'm sorry i just keep repeating the front in the event of a fire the fire and rescue service are in charge it's absolutely they're the professionals we will all do what we're asked to do by
01:09:57 we will all do what we're asked to do by them
01:09:59 them again if we have tmo employees around and available and on site and the and the fire and rescue service make a request of them for assistance they
01:10:09 they will assist but there's no kind of formal training or no particular role it's just that you know in good faith they will
01:10:17 they will right and i know that they have what did you want assuming you read this yeah yes and it's not entirely dissimilar if i could put it that way to the text that we see in uh carl stokes's other fras earlier for
01:10:30 uh carl stokes's other fras earlier for grenfell tower what did you understand that this sentence meant when it says tmo employees will arrange for a general evacuation of the whole building at any time if this is appropriate to do
01:10:41 at any time if this is appropriate to do so um i just i just didn't interpret it that way
01:10:45 that way my view very clearly that i keep reiterating is is that that is the fire service's responsibility to call the shots and decide what's appropriate and if we have staff who are available
01:10:56 and if we have staff who are available they will
01:10:57 they will do as their bid and and that's how i perceive that um in terms of general evacuation and tmo employees it would have been a non-fire related um matter you say it's not how you read
01:11:09 um matter you say it's not how you read it
01:11:10 it how do you read the words tma employees will arrange for a general evacuation of the whole building well i think it's i think that it's sometimes
01:11:19 sometimes carl's written communication isn't as clear as it should be what's unclear about that well it implies that they've got a role that they don't have it doesn't imply it it just it says tma employees will arrange for a general
01:11:32 tma employees will arrange for a general evacuation i'm just seeking to understand what is remotely ambiguous about it that could have been well i think what he was referring to is a general evacuation evacuation of the whole building in another kind of circumstance
01:11:43 another kind of circumstance um let's see if we can trace the source of this
01:11:48 of this language cst403061
01:12:04 now this is a letter i've shown you before of the 27th of september 2010 which followed carl stokes is meeting with you at the hub on the 24th of september 2010 the day after you had told him that
01:12:16 2010 the day after you had told him that he had won the medium program tender we went through that before now can i ask you in that letter to go to page three please
01:12:28 uh he is uh sitting out there at the top of the page top of your screen what he has got from you
01:12:35 you at the meeting and it says this the evacuation strategy for residential buildings
01:12:40 buildings in residential accommodation buildings there's a defending place evacuation strategy for res for the residents this means the residents remain within their dwelling their own dwelling during a fire incident unless the fire is in their dwelling or it is otherwise
01:12:52 is in their dwelling or it is otherwise affected in which case they will immediately evacuate the flat and call the fire and rescue service the fire service or tmo employees can or will arrange for a general evacuation of the building at any time if this is appropriate or
01:13:04 at any time if this is appropriate or resident can leave at any time if they say wish then this goes on about the information so it looks uh
01:13:11 looks uh from this that carl stokes was writing back to you recording his understanding of what you had told him at the 24th of september meeting yes it looks that way yes and when he said
01:13:22 it looks that way yes and when he said the fire service all tmo employees can or will arrange for general evacuation of the building that was his understanding he got it from you and you didn't correct him well it's a misunderstanding because i
01:13:33 well it's a misunderstanding because i would never have said that or led him to believe that and we didn't train our staff to do that and it wouldn't be appropriate to do that because it's a fire and rescue services responsibility so that's remiss of me not to have corrected him
01:13:44 not to have corrected him did you ever set out the elements of a general evacuation plan in writing or at all i mean we have our fire action notices we have our
01:13:55 notices we have our um our fire procedures are emergency plans that we share with residents beyond that i don't recall anything specific did you
01:14:06 don't recall anything specific did you ever brief tmo employees that they might be required to arrange or assist with a general evacuation or a substantial partial
01:14:14 partial evacuation of the whole building um the it would largely have been our resident caretakers um some of whom were on site at a dare tower and
01:14:24 tower and um at trellic tower and we if something happened out of hours we would have had two duty caretakers on duty
01:14:32 duty and they would have been the first people to the scene so we i had had many conversations with them and actually um they would have been very willing to help the fire service in any way that they could i'm sure that's true willing to help is one thing but
01:14:44 to help is one thing but but did they actually get given a briefing about what they were supposed to do
01:14:47 to do no and i wouldn't have been in a position to give them a briefing because i wouldn't know what the fire brigade would want them to do what what training did you give or did you give training at all to any tmo staff about how best to assist in the carrying out of a
01:14:59 to assist in the carrying out of a general
01:15:00 general or partial evacuation of any building no why's that well it's kind of self-evident i mean if if
01:15:07 if sorry but if you have to evacuate a building
01:15:10 building urgently in a non-fire situation it's just all hands to the pump um the managers on site will say okay this is what i want you to do i need you this is the message you know this is how
01:15:21 this is the message you know this is how i want you to carry it out i'm not sure that there's a lot that you can do in terms
01:15:23 terms of training it's about instruction and being clear that that you're doing it consistently
01:15:32 did you ever discuss the details of tmo's arrangements
01:15:37 for a general evacuation with the london fire brigade at any time
01:15:43 um no i don't believe i did because it wasn't something that they that was considering all of the dialogue and ongoing contact that we had with them
01:15:52 them um i'm not sure i i don't recall having a conversation about that so was it your understanding that the tmo staff
01:16:01 tmo staff were expected to assist with a general partial evacuation it was my understanding that it was very much the fire brigade's responsibility and if i had staff on site and the fire brigade needed their assistance
01:16:12 brigade needed their assistance um most of my staff would be more than willing to help and that's it was informal and that's what was that was in place right so you say that was what was in place what i'm really seeking to get at is what was
01:16:24 i'm really seeking to get at is what was in place as a matter of formal procedure whereby tma staff would assist with or assist with arranging a general or partial evacuation there wasn't a formal procedure
01:16:34 procedure right um but we'd had enough incidents and enough liaison with the fire brigade that
01:16:40 that um and i know my colleagues were more than happy to help did did you ever ask carl stokes for any advice about planning a general or fully substantially partial
01:16:51 or fully substantially partial evacuation strategy in the event of a fire no because i believe his his view um was similar to mine that it it was very much for the fire brigade to take charge
01:17:02 charge and decide what firefighting operations and what evacuation um was required and put plans in place and and
01:17:08 and and um no beyond that i don't think i did
01:17:14 can i just show you mr chairman i got two real two questions before a possible break but let me just finish this off by may um can i ask you to look at tmo double zero eight four zero four three one
01:17:42 this is your note it's a paper which uh you
01:17:46 you presented to the uh health and safety committee on our dare tower 31st of october
01:17:57 on our dare tower 31st of october and you set out the some detail a great deal of detail about the about the fire and then in the fifth bullet point down you see you say this the fire strategy for this in common with almost all tma blocks is a state
01:18:08 with almost all tma blocks is a state put strategy which means that only the residents in the flat where the fire originates need evacuate
01:18:14 evacuate initially other residents safely inside their flat will generally be safe to stay put
01:18:18 stay put once the fire brigade attend they make an assessment and decide whether additional evacuation is required and if necessary facilitate this
01:18:26 this and then you say brackets assisted by any tmo staff who are present so those words in brackets there was that a reference to a plan or was it just an observation
01:18:39 a plan or was it just an observation that if any tma staff happened to be on hand they would help out the latter the latter i see um we've seen the fra well at least the 20th
01:18:49 20th june 2016 fra do you know why you allowed carl stakes to say repeatedly and without qualification in every single fra for grenfell tower from 2010 onwards
01:19:00 for grenfell tower from 2010 onwards that where appropriate the building would be evacuated uh where you hadn't taken steps to ensure that the tmo staff could carry out an evacuation and you hadn't discussed that with the lfb
01:19:11 lfb uh no i can't give you an answer mr chairman is there is that a convenient moment yes very well thank you mr will have a break now and we'll resume please 25 to 12
01:19:23 and we'll resume please 25 to 12 and as before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room all right thank you very much yes you'd like to go to the usher please
01:19:38 good thank you 25 to 12.
01:36:08 yes would you ask mrs ray to come back in please okay
01:36:22 all right mr ready to carry on good thank you yes thank you mr chairman ms ray i want to ask you now some questions about vulnerable residents and evacuation planning for them uh can we start by looking at your third
01:36:34 uh can we start by looking at your third witness statement please at tmo double zero eight four seven three zero five
01:36:42 and go in that to please to page 34 paragraph 112. page 34.
01:37:02 thank you yes and you say that i've been asked to clarify what the fire safety policy was for the evacuation of disabled residents in the event that the need to evacuate occurred due to a fire in that person's
01:37:14 occurred due to a fire in that person's flat and or the failure of compartmentation the fire safety advice given to disabled residents in the tower was the same as that given to non-disabled residents i never envisaged that there would be a
01:37:25 i never envisaged that there would be a failure of compartmentation as i had no reason to now what about where compartmentation didn't fail
01:37:35 fail but a disabled or vulnerable resident had a fire in their flat and had to leave assuming that set of facts what special plans did you have in place for those residents
01:37:48 have in place for those residents when i was when i was made aware of of residents with any particular needs um uh usually adrian or i or we might have asked car stocks to make contact with it with the
01:37:59 to make contact with it with the resident identify what the issue was if it was in relation to um sensory issues or changes to their detection if it was about being alerted to a fire or if it was about responding
01:38:12 to a fire or if it was about responding to a fire
01:38:13 to a fire um uh i i can think of examples where we did provide pieces of kit which which enabled people to be alerted and then they were able to self-evacuate
01:38:24 then they were able to self-evacuate um um sorry we took we spoke to we spoke about peeps and ultimately we would have produced peeps but
01:38:32 peeps but we did rely on on our housing management colleagues to refer people to us because they had relationships with the residents
01:38:39 residents um and they knew um they would have known who
01:38:44 known who i think vulnerability covers a massive of different um kinds of conditions um and not everybody vulnerable will need any degree assistance in terms of being alerted to a fire or responding to afar
01:38:56 a fire or responding to afar but some people very definitely will um so i think it has to be something that is responded to on a person-by-person basis
01:39:03 basis um my colleagues did refer people to us for a variety of reasons um and particularly in relation to hoarding we did quite a lot of work so we would look to um investigate with
01:39:14 so we would look to um investigate with the with the individual people what could be put in place to assist them well
01:39:20 them well thank you i'm not quite sure that's an answer to my question what i'm really seeking to understand is paragraph 112 of your statement you say that fire safety advice given to
01:39:31 you say that fire safety advice given to disabled residents in the tower grenfell tower was the same as that given to non-disabled residents uh so just pausing there do i take it from that that the fire safety advice did not
01:39:43 the fire safety advice did not differentiate as between disabled and non-disabled residents
01:39:49 residents i would only have known people were vulnerable or disabled if it had been brought to my attention no i'm sorry let me try again the fire safety advice didn't distinguish between the two kinds
01:40:01 didn't distinguish between the two kinds of residents sorry what i was going to try and say was the initial fire safety advice would be general advice once i'm made aware that someone has
01:40:12 aware that someone has specific special requirements then the advice will be different obviously but initially i'm not going to know that we have anybody who is vulnerable so
01:40:21 so it's general needs accommodation i'm i'm providing
01:40:24 providing standard information in relation to how people will or will or won't behave in the event of a fire when people are brought to my attention and obviously specific
01:40:33 specific advice um or specific pieces of equipment or whatever um is investigated in relation to to alleviating their concerns so thank you so when you say the fire
01:40:44 so thank you so when you say the fire safety advice given that's a reference to the generic advice given to all residents regardless of their capabilities or abilities uh is that how we do understand that
01:40:56 uh is that how we do understand that that's the starting point everybody will receive that initially and then we would look to right i see but then i then the question arises what the relevance of you're not envisaging a failure of
01:41:08 of you're not envisaging a failure of compartmentation is why was that relevant um i wrote so many statements um
01:41:21 well i mean i think in general yes it does happen it can't be real diet but but in general compartmentation um we we did try and rely on it we tried to investigate it
01:41:32 rely on it we tried to investigate it where we had opportunities to um we knew whether the properties were purpose-built so as a rule we were not expecting compartmentation to fail although we accepted that it possibly could in
01:41:43 accepted that it possibly could in extreme cases but when you say i never envisioned that there would be a failure of compartmentation as i had no reason to one of the reasons to to envisage it even if not as a likelihood but
01:41:55 even if not as a likelihood but certainly as a possibility was because paragraph 18.4 of the lga guidance said so
01:42:00 so yeah now
01:42:04 yeah now it's right i think isn't it that as at the date of the fire at grenfell tower 14th of june 2017 only a vulnerable or disabled resident in general housing who raised a concern with estate or neighborhood colleagues
01:42:16 with estate or neighborhood colleagues would receive a peep they didn't even needed reason i beg upon they didn't even need to raise a concern
01:42:25 concern if they were a resident with whom the housing manager had regular contact and and either the housing manager or the neighborhood support officer um had concerns um they could raise
01:42:36 um had concerns um they could raise that with my colleague and i but i i know that i believe there was information retained in terms of vulnerability that i wouldn't have i think been able to access and i think
01:42:47 i think been able to access and i think rightly so i think it's it's personal information um so i would have wanted to be clear that anyone who had concerns or about whom the housing manager had concerns would be happy for us to engage with
01:42:58 would be happy for us to engage with them
01:43:03 well let me just look and see what you say in your third statement tmo double zero eight four seven three zero five please page thirty five in that
01:43:24 page thirty five in that you say it paragraph 114 i've been asked to provide more information on the tma's intention to produce personal emergency evacuation plans peeps for vulnerable and disabled residents
01:43:34 residents i've also been asked to set out the extent of my knowledge and involvement in this plan peeps were generally targeted at workplace and occupational settings and not residential dwellings additionally the health and safety team were not were not routinely advised
01:43:47 were not were not routinely advised of the location of vulnerable residents all those with disabilities if vulnerable residents or disabled residents raised concerns with my estate or neighborhood colleagues we would have visited that resident and
01:43:58 we would have visited that resident and or asked the fire risk assessor to visit and sought an lfb home fire safety visit and it looks from that evidence that it was up to the vulnerable or disabled resident to raise a concern with the tmo which would then trigger a
01:44:11 with the tmo which would then trigger a visit
01:44:12 visit and and a discussion is that right um it it's not ex i have worded it wrongly because i know for a fact that in relation to hoarding
01:44:24 for a fact that in relation to hoarding um residents and that was a we became aware of those from our neighborhood support colleagues and where they were particularly concerned about the vulnerability and
01:44:35 concerned about the vulnerability and the um ability of that individual to to get out in the event of a fire and the increased fire loading they came to us proactively with that information and we then did
01:44:46 information and we then did visits and made recommendations so i haven't um i haven't really outlined this clearly right well i'm just going on your wording but looking at what you say if vulnerable or disabled residents raised
01:44:57 vulnerable or disabled residents raised concerns
01:44:58 concerns what kind of concern there would would trigger
01:45:01 trigger a referral for a peep um if they just had concerns about fire safety generally and
01:45:06 and any kind of it wouldn't have to be some terribly high level concern if they if they had some anxiety about how um how they would behave in the event of fire
01:45:14 fire how they could protect their family from fire then then we would have engaged with them
01:45:18 with them i see and in what circumstances would an estate or neighborhood officer know when to make a referral for a peep for a resident in general housing um in in general my impression was that
01:45:29 um in in general my impression was that the housing manager housing officer had quite good relationships and ongoing and regular contact with the people probably not all but many of the people in their patch um and and developed relationships and
01:45:42 um and and developed relationships and and
01:45:42 and knew those who might be anxious and those that were those that were not and and we're dealing with them in all sorts of ways and referring them to all sorts of um support services so they're probably
01:45:54 um support services so they're probably in a better position than me too to know who to refer
01:46:02 so your position was one of impression based and entirely reliant upon the judgment
01:46:09 judgment of the esa's and neighborhood offices the neighborhood offices particularly on a case-by-case basis yes so there was no set procedural system in
01:46:21 so there was no set procedural system in place
01:46:22 place which would govern what circumstances would trigger a referral for a peep no we would consider we would consider anyone who
01:46:34 anyone who who vulnerability was brought to our attention and and also with my colleague he would do the sign ups with new residents she was also aware um of the need to to highlight any concerns right
01:46:45 concerns right did you realize that neither nicola bartholomew or siobhan rumble realized that
01:46:51 that you could ref they could refer somebody for a peep i i think what i need to say is that we didn't
01:46:58 didn't use the term peep um there are far too many acronym acronyms in housing and so it was it was probably not a term that was widely used but they but um particularly in
01:47:11 but they but um particularly in relation to fire safety then uh we would brief
01:47:14 brief our colleagues in housing management on a regular basis we would talk to them about the outcome of the fire risk assessments and that would be something that we would also raise with them
01:47:25 i'm sorry um did you realize that neither nicola bartholomew or schwarn rumble
01:47:30 rumble realized that they could refer somebody for a personal evacuation personal emergency evacuation yeah no my point is that that peeps the term peeps wasn't one that we tended to use with
01:47:41 wasn't one that we tended to use with housing colleagues we said if you have anybody who's got concerns about fire safety any issues in regards to fire safety it was kind of more general than that if they're worried about how they would evacuate if they're if if
01:47:52 how they would evacuate if they're if if they're unclear or if they've got anxiety or or if they've got any concerns at all please please raise him with us did you ever prepare a i'm sorry peep personal emergency
01:48:03 a i'm sorry peep personal emergency evacuation plan for any resident um i don't believe i did i i've certainly prepared some for colleagues workplace colleagues yes i'm i'm talking about residents in general housing did you never prepared
01:48:14 general housing did you never prepared one yourself no i didn't carl stokes told us that he had prepared two in the period uh of seven years for during which he was uh fire risk assessor uh
01:48:25 assessor uh do you know how many others were prepared by you or your what by your team
01:48:28 team no i don't and and just to go back to what i said earlier that we were trying to assist people and sometimes it was that they didn't um have the right kind of detection um that they might have had
01:48:40 detection um that they might have had sensory issues that they may have just needed more confidence about what to do if there was a fire in their dwelling just get to the next compartment um so so
01:48:48 so um there were there were lots of com there were conversations being had and there was advice being given which which may not have been documented as a peep because it wasn't to that degree of of well let's just see
01:49:00 to that degree of of well let's just see if we can look at some of the guidance to see what what good looks like if i can put it that way can we start with
01:49:12 inq3014732 um now what i'm going to show you miss ray is
01:49:19 ray is the fire safety risk assessment supplementary guide
01:49:40 inq3014732
01:49:54 so
01:50:04 no right well were you familiar with the document called the fire safety risk assessment supplementary guide means of escape for disabled people dated 2007. you were yeah you were you were aware of
01:50:15 you were yeah you were you were aware of and you were aware of the requirements where you uh that the responsible person must provide a fire risk assessment with an evacuation plan for all individuals on the premises
01:50:26 for all individuals on the premises including disabled persons yes yes yes and that it shouldn't be dependent on the fire and rescue service the evacuation plan should not be dependent upon the fire and rescue
01:50:37 dependent upon the fire and rescue service
01:50:38 service right yes yes yes and also that the disability discrimination act 1995 which i think was replaced by the equality act 2010 required organizations and
01:50:50 2010 required organizations and employers to ensure that disabled persons could leave a building safely in the event of a fire yes yes and also that those responsibilities apply to all buildings where the rro applied
01:51:01 applied yes yes yes and that would therefore mean all general needs accommodation i think you agree yes yes did you ever rely on the guide or look at that guide
01:51:12 look at that guide to refer to evacuation planning for general needs accommodation within the tma stock
01:51:17 tma stock i i looked at all of the guys but i couldn't understand how i could facilitate more than what we were already doing because we didn't have we didn't have a resource we didn't have any staff we did we didn't have anyone who could sit even
01:51:28 we didn't have anyone who could sit even in terms of the specialized housing where we were being quite rigorous about regular
01:51:33 regular assessments of individual residents and regular site visits and regularly reminding them of the fire procedure the agreement was the fire brigade was we would document those residents who would require help
01:51:45 would require help and put it in a fire docks box and the brigade would come take that information and assist those people to evacuate even in those locations we did not have staff who could assist
01:51:56 staff who could assist you so you didn't have anyone who could sit assist oh a cyst right okay it was transcribed wrongly let me show you the lga guide hom3045964
01:52:14 if we go to page 120 in that document
01:52:19 we can see that a paragraph 79.9 top of the page it says this in general needs blocks of flats it can equally be expected that a resident's physical vary it is usually unrealistic to expect
01:52:31 vary it is usually unrealistic to expect landlords and other responsible persons to plan for their persons to plan for this or to have in place special arrangements such as personal emergency evacuation plans such plans rely on the presence of staff
01:52:41 staff or others available to assist the person to escape in a fire even in sheltered housing schemes there will be reliance ultimately on rescue by the fire and rescue service in the event that residents cannot escape by
01:52:52 that residents cannot escape by themselves however in sheltered housing schemes it's commonplace to hold information relating to any resident with particular mobility or other issues affecting their ability to escape this can be made available to the fire and rescue service on arrival at the
01:53:04 and rescue service on arrival at the premises
01:53:05 premises for example by keeping it in a premises information box which can only be unlocked by the fire and rescue service at the main entrance details of any residents using oxygen or other medical gases are usually kept with this information
01:53:17 are usually kept with this information it is not realistic to expect such an approach to be adopted where there are disabled
01:53:21 disabled people and others requiring assistance in general needs block any attempts to keep information of this kind must be updated regularly as inaccurate information could potentially be more harmful than no information
01:53:32 information and then 79.12 i've read to you already this morning i i think you said earlier you were familiar with that part of the guidance i'm assuming you all said that you were familiar with the rest of the guidance
01:53:43 familiar with the rest of the guidance on this page yes yes to what extent did that guidance that i've read to you inform your strategy for dealing with vulnerable or disabled residents in general housing within the tma stock
01:53:55 in general housing within the tma stock well it did inform it i mean we we did feel that this was the most appropriate guidance for for the majority of buildings that we we had that they were purpose built that
01:54:06 we had that they were purpose built that they were stay put and we you know we would still endeavor to to provide um advice and assistance and um sensory um
01:54:19 and um sensory um pieces of kit um and we would produce peeps but they could not rely upon staff assisting because we did not have any right so so we were really constrained it wasn't we weren't
01:54:31 it wasn't we weren't deliberately willfully ignoring the problem we were trying to do what we could
01:54:35 could um to assist and where where somebody vulnerable had family who could assist
01:54:41 assist then that was was certainly helpful but we we just we could not rely on staff we i think
01:54:48 i think i think we maybe have one member of resident staff um and in those days we we probably had 200 members of staff one was resident we had two people on duty out of ours to cover all of the
01:54:59 duty out of ours to cover all of the stock
01:55:00 stock um sorry i just i think it's important to emphasize that that i we couldn't see how else we could could resource it or we couldn't see what else
01:55:11 resource it or we couldn't see what else we could do so we were trying to to do what we could to make sure that people could
01:55:15 could escape to a separate compartment or or if there were things we could do to to alert them to a fire so that they could self-evacuate but um it was really a challenge did you
01:55:27 but um it was really a challenge did you seek to justify the approach you've just identified in your answer by reference to paragraph 79.9 of this guide
01:55:33 guide consciously uh no i don't think so right were you ever conscious that there might be
01:55:41 might be an element of inconsistency between the sleeping guide on the one hand and the lga guide on the other when it came to peeps in general needs high-rise buildings of course of course well i can see that there's a
01:55:53 of course well i can see that there's a complete conflict between them but i genuinely believe that this was the appropriate guidance for for the majority of our properties um it's the kind of issue i think i said
01:56:05 it's the kind of issue i think i said before that when this was being produced and there was significant consultation across the sector and and i did raise a number of issues and i think
01:56:14 think um disability was one of the issues that i did raise um so we were hoping across the sector that this would be able to resolve lots of ongoing issues at least hold the doors all of our kind of perennial things which were problematic
01:56:27 things which were problematic and this i mean this is the advice that it gives but it still doesn't i i still would want to have produced peeps and where i needed to i believe that we did but often we had
01:56:38 i believe that we did but often we had to stop short of that because we didn't have a resource we didn't have anyone who could physically come and take people out of the building or assist or use evac chairs or any things that you can do in occupational settings which is you
01:56:51 in occupational settings which is you know we had a wheelchair band lady in our office for a long time and we were able to
01:56:55 able to have an evac chair have it serviced regularly train our staff review the p keep a list of her medication do all the things that we knew that we had to do but but it is it realistically wasn't
01:57:07 but but it is it realistically wasn't something that we could do on a on a big scale
01:57:09 scale in general needs accommodation so is the answer to my question yes that i knew there was a discrepancy yes between yes yes sorry i apologize i thought i'd already responded to that
01:57:21 given that you knew there was a discrepancy did you make a choice as to which of the two governing guides you would follow i genuinely still believe did you make
01:57:33 i genuinely still believe did you make sorry
01:57:33 sorry because i've carried your answer about what you genuinely still believe what did you make at the time as a matter of fact
01:57:38 fact a conscious choice about which guide to follow i made a conscious choice to apply the guide that i thought was appropriate to the environment that that was there and to the type of
01:57:50 that that was there and to the type of buildings that we went included and is the the two long answers you've just given me about 79 the rationale for choosing the lga guide over the sleeping guide sorry i can only reiterate that i
01:58:01 sorry i can only reiterate that i believe that the purpose built guide is the appropriate guide for these blogs now i want to ask you about some events in 2009
01:58:11 in 2009 can i ask you please to be shown rbk three zeros five two five two eight
01:58:23 can you please look i'm so sorry i'll wait for it to come up there it is can we look at page three in this email run uh and you'll see
01:58:34 in this email run uh and you'll see on page three that there is an email from you to robert black and liam good copy to lawnette pemberton and adrian bowman on the 17th of june 2009 and the subject
01:58:45 on the 17th of june 2009 and the subject is enforcement notice from the fire brigade and it starts by saying this is to advise you that the fire brigade informed us this morning that they intend to serve an enforcement notice jointly on us
01:58:56 an enforcement notice jointly on us and the council i'm not sure exactly how this will be worded but it will relate to our lack of progress with fire risk assessments in the communal areas of our blocks as required by the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005
01:59:08 fire safety order 2005 the background to this is as follows and then if you look at the point number two paragraph two you say this last year we were contacted by the local fire safety team who requested a copy of our fire risk
01:59:20 requested a copy of our fire risk assessment for gilray house we submitted this and then received a letter advising us that the conditions specified in and required by the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 were being contravened that's in
01:59:32 were being contravened that's in quotations the specific area of concern was noted as the fire risk assessment not suitable and sufficient procedures to be put in place in relation to occupants of the building with reduced mobility
01:59:43 with reduced mobility this opened up a protracted discussion with brigade on a whole range of fire safety issues and i met with fire safety officers
01:59:49 officers in order to try to clarify their requirements do you accept that the lfb had recommended that there should be a procedure in place for residents with
02:00:00 procedure in place for residents with reduced mobility yes yes now if we go up the chain please to page one if you if you go with me to the bottom of page one you'll see that uh claire wise
02:00:13 one you'll see that uh claire wise responds to you the next day on the 18th of june
02:00:16 of june uh also copy to adrian bowman uh and uh she says this dear janice i have been asked to contact you with regards to your email dated 17th june below and then it says i've worked
02:00:29 june below and then it says i've worked on a project assessing the access to tmo dwellings
02:00:31 dwellings for the accessible housing register and subsequently made recommendations to the schedule of works to satisfy disability discrimination act requirements as an aside to this i've been researching design and management issues relating to provisions for
02:00:43 issues relating to provisions for emergency egress of disabled buildings from flats in tall buildings
02:00:48 buildings i'm certainly no expert in this field but i have found little guidance or legislation relating to the requirements for dwellings in particular social housing landlords it may be mistaken but the regulatory reform fire safety
02:01:00 but the regulatory reform fire safety order of 2005
02:01:04 provides very limited information in relation to dwellings and as such on receipt of enforcement notice it may be necessary to seek legal advice that she draws your attention uh 2.6.1 which states this order does
02:01:15 uh 2.6.1 which states this order does not apply in relation to a domestic premises except to the extent mentioned in articles 31 10 and that's prohibition notices and then she goes on to say this having said that there may be duties
02:01:27 having said that there may be duties under the disability discrimination act which states that disabled people are not to be treated any less favorably than a person without a disability that would therefore mean that if an evacuation plan is in place
02:01:38 evacuation plan is in place that would not be suitable for a person with disabilities then an alternative provision for disabled people needs to be in place i would also argue that the council should address this under duties in the disability equality scheme
02:01:50 disability equality scheme my feeling is that for provisions for domestic premises including communal areas to slip through the net in relation to legislation and good practice guidance and she goes on to explain why that is
02:02:03 and she goes on to explain why that is uh and then she says uh uh then she says
02:02:10 uh this would appear to be an opportunity for collaborative working with the fire brigade to develop a model that can be applied across the remaining tmo buildings i'd like to stress that i'm not an expert in this field
02:02:20 field i would however have an interest in assisting with resolving this matter can i suggest we meet to discuss the progress so far and consider a plan of action
02:02:30 now first question is did you accept claire wise's offer of assistance um i cannot recall i believe we did have some
02:02:37 some further discussions but i i cannot recall right now she suggested seeking advice to clarify the tmos and rbkc's statutory duties both under
02:02:49 and rbkc's statutory duties both under the rro under the and under the disability discrimination act did you seek such advice for the tmo um no i don't believe so i thought that related to the enforcement notice nonetheless did you seek
02:03:03 notice nonetheless did you seek such advice i don't recall doing so now do you know from your own knowledge whether rbkc did i don't know right now she suggests that as you can see duties existed under the
02:03:15 duties existed under the uh disability discrimination act to ensure that disabled persons can safely evacuate a building were you concerned to find out whether the tmo owed such a duty and if so to what extent and how
02:03:27 so to what extent and how it should go about discharging it and i i was always concerned to be doing what i needed to be doing and to maximize
02:03:36 maximize people's ability to to egress but i but yeah the how i was able to go about it was the challenge did you take any steps to discover first whether the tmo
02:03:47 whether the tmo itself owed duty under the dda secondly if so what its extent was and thirdly how to discharge it to that extent um i i don't recall it it's probably
02:03:58 um i i don't recall it it's probably work that the policy team would have done more generally across the stock right but you didn't
02:04:03 didn't no i don't believe i did but did you instigate such an investigation i can't recall okay um now let's look on a little bit later in the in the year 20 to 2009
02:04:15 year 20 to 2009 october um rbk304771
02:04:22 these are the minutes of an early progress meeting 19th of october 2009. you we can see that you are there together with abigail
02:04:33 that you are there together with abigail acosta
02:04:33 acosta she'll come back into the story later on and also android furnace of salvas and and much more from rbkc and and on page one under paragraph two
02:04:46 and and on page one under paragraph two can you see that there's a program and within the program uh you can see the the the grenfell tower is identified uh and it's identified as completed uh
02:04:59 uh and it's identified as completed uh as of 31
02:05:00 as of 31 as of 30th of september you see that yes yes
02:05:03 yes and if you go to page two you can see under paragraph four
02:05:09 that there are queries queries arising from fra reports and if you go to 4.3 which you'll need to scroll down to see bottom of the page if we scroll down please thank you action janice to
02:05:20 please thank you action janice to investigate and then underneath that it says this the report states at the time of the risk assessment it could not be ascertained if any residents in the building had any sensory impairments and it is recommended that the tmo
02:05:32 and it is recommended that the tmo includes an item in their next news sheet advising tenants to contact the tmo if they have any disabilities that might restrict or hinder their ability to react or respond to an alarm and on the next page
02:05:46 to an alarm and on the next page we can see what you say or what is said as recorded at this meeting we do have a green triangle on our housing i.t system to flag up residents with vulnerability also there is a resident
02:05:58 vulnerability also there is a resident profile exercise in hand and we have a tmo2u service to vulnerable residents all existing ways of flagging up vulnerable people do we need to go further than this af advised
02:06:10 advised that if if that's andrew furnace advised that if
02:06:14 that if the assessor could be given information in relation to the locations of vulnerable residents and their vulnerabilities before they assess the block this will make the assessment much more comprehensive a a as abigail acosta agreed to
02:06:26 a a as abigail acosta agreed to investigate if it could extract this information from world's end estate so that it could be given to salvas in advance of the assessment starting next monday
02:06:36 monday now was there any discussion do you remember about providing the assessors with information about vulnerable residents in blocks which had already had completed fras such as grenfell tower
02:06:45 tower i don't recall one why was that i have no idea i do accept that at least from october 2009 you yourself were aware of the need to provide assessors with information about
02:06:57 provide assessors with information about the location of residents with vulnerability yeah it seems so mm-hmm and in other words not just employees not just staff but residents yes yes and also that the tma should
02:07:09 yes yes and also that the tma should maintain a system and in fact did maintain some kind of system for recording vulnerable residents
02:07:17 residents yes yes now moving on in time sal 6047 this is an email
02:07:31 from andrew furness of salvas 5th of january 2010 to the lfb nicholas coombe relating to defending place strategy and policy
02:07:42 defending place strategy and policy meeting
02:07:43 meeting and if you uh go to page two please in that document and look at the uh i suppose it's the third paragraph
02:07:54 uh i suppose it's the third paragraph down
02:07:55 down um it says trouble is many clients do not know and you see that yep trouble is many clients do not know who they have in their buildings and the risk assessors either have to make a professional educated guess
02:08:06 make a professional educated guess or some have come across ignore occupier's response entirely putting into the too difficult box we do try and get the info but sometimes we rely on a bit of luck that occupiers are in when we visit
02:08:16 we visit rbk ctmo have little or no knowledge of occupiers of their premises and thus we've gone for appropriate compartmentation dwelling detection stroke warning route supported by detection in higher risk areas lakehold's guide
02:08:28 areas lakehold's guide and have advised them to find out about their tenants and take appropriate steps if disabled stroke vulnerable persons are known to occupy eg visible warning system plus afd in all common areas
02:08:40 afd in all common areas plus the above a system to create peeps
02:08:45 do you agree or did you agree uh with salvus assessment of the position as of january 2010 as described there
02:08:53 there um i don't know that i'm in a position to say to be honest because any information that was being collated was being collated out of my sight so i don't know how successful it was or what percentage of
02:09:04 successful it was or what percentage of the stock they had completed um so maybe we did know very little but i
02:09:10 i i suspect that may not be the case because andrew furness hadn't spoken directly to my housing colleagues and i certainly hadn't passed him back any detailed information well that was my my next question ms ray was this question ever discussed
02:09:21 ever discussed as between you and mr furnace no right and to your knowledge nobody and your staff either no right did you yourself take any steps to ensure that you had improved information on vulnerable residents in tma managed
02:09:32 on vulnerable residents in tma managed properties general housing needs me myself i probably did not because it would not have been for me to um
02:09:41 um to obtain the information though there was all there were generally initiatives in place and i know there were always discussions about tenancy audits and and various things where lots of information could have been
02:09:52 lots of information could have been gleaned um and that was sort of happening
02:09:54 happening in the housing side where mr fernandez says
02:09:57 says has have advised them to find out about their tenants can you assist what advice had mr furnace given you or to your knowledge anybody in the tmo about
02:10:06 about finding out about their tenants i think he's referring back to the minutes of that you've just showed us right moving on then
02:10:14 on then um can we look please at the 23rd of june 2010 letter from carl stokes we looked at uh earlier in your evidence it's at cst401887
02:10:28 in your evidence it's at cst401887 uh we looked at it i think yesterday um you'll you'll recall the topic uh the title of the letter employee fire training personnel emergency evacuation plans peeps
02:10:41 emergency evacuation plans peeps and lift maintenance et cetera in the first paragraph you can see that he refers to the meeting the previous day 22nd of june and we covered that but he goes on to say
02:10:54 uh it goes on to say when completing any fire risk assessments for building is under the control of the tenants management organization tmo etc and where tmo employees are present in the buildings
02:11:05 in the buildings the information in this letter will be used as the basis of the fire training and fireward and selection the information on lifts will be used in the relevant section for fixed installations etc
02:11:13 etc and then at the end he says the peeps documents again will be used as evidence in the disabled persons section now looking specifically at that last sentence peeps do you recall whether he
02:11:24 sentence peeps do you recall whether he advised you that peeps were to be used for residents residents as well as staff i'm sure that he did
02:11:32 he did you sure that he did now if you go to page two
02:11:37 uh under the heading of peeps there you can see that he says the suite of personal well he calls it personnel but one never quite knows
02:11:45 knows the suite of personnel emergency evacuation plans peeps documents you showed me are the ones used as best practice in the h m or h m government guidance documents for risk assessment so by using these documents you are
02:11:57 so by using these documents you are following the guidance in the government risk assessment guides and therefore best practice now um these are i think the the documents that you exhibited to your
02:12:11 the documents that you exhibited to your 24th of january 2020 statement is that right most likely yes and just for our reference purposes that's tmo-00862
02:12:22 and there are i think 10 documents you exhibited aren't there jw1 to jw10 and yes do you remember what you discussed
02:12:32 discussed about those documents with mr stokes what was the thrust of the discussion well just that where we were undertaking peeps
02:12:40 peeps that's the format that they would they would follow that we would complete right so there'd be
02:12:47 be a letter a personal record sheet a questionnaire a reception sign and a risk matrix for example in yeah that was the plan and was the plan to use those documents
02:12:58 and was the plan to use those documents not only for staff but for employees not only for staff but for residents where peeps needed to be recorded the plan was to to use those as the bases we we might have looked to refine them if they were too unwieldy but that was
02:13:09 if they were too unwieldy but that was the plan yes i see you say where peeps needed to be recorded so that was the suite of documents that you would use where you needed to create a peep for a resident yes i see
02:13:22 now if we go to page three in this document
02:13:25 document he says this uh just after number nine from the information above the lifts in these building would be suitable to be used by disabled
02:13:37 would be suitable to be used by disabled persons as a means of evacuating the premises and the tmo asset register stroke system holds all the premises address
02:13:43 address servicing dates of lifts etc did you understand that the lifts were to be used to evacuate disabled persons no this is a point of
02:13:54 no this is a point of dispute disagreement between mr stokes and i
02:13:57 and i i was very clear that they were not firefighting lifts or evacuation lifts um and discussions with my then senior lift engineer had clarified that um robin callahan
02:14:09 had clarified that um robin callahan robin colin yes um and that had been conveyed to salvers and
02:14:14 and was discussed with with mr stokes but he was
02:14:18 was remained utterly convinced that they were firefighting lifts and so insisted on on still describing them in that way and i would have sort of raised it with them on on a periodic basis
02:14:29 periodic basis um but i would never have used the lifts for evacuation lifts because i was i was not convinced there of that standard i also don't think from what i've read that it's really appropriate to use
02:14:40 appropriate to use evacuation lists unless you've got somebody supervising the process and that was the other difficulty that we had that we had nobody who could be supervising if i had staff there to supervise the lift and they could have participated in
02:14:51 lift and they could have participated in assisting people as well and and that was my dad well indeed and you've just given a very very clear uh and unequivocal answer why did you not go back and respond to
02:15:02 why did you not go back and respond to mr stakes his 23rd of june 2010 letter and tell him that that sentence was wrong
02:15:08 wrong i we've we had that discussion on a regular basis and he was utterly convinced that they had a separate power supply and therefore
02:15:16 therefore i said but but they don't the what as i'm sure you appreciate and as it turns out maybe not wisely robert and i decided that it might be helpful to identify the criteria
02:15:28 identify the criteria that they did um that they sorry the qualities that they did have the lifts our lifts complied with a number of
02:15:35 number of the criteria from this the required standard that was in order so we could share that with the fire brigade particularly so we could say look they're not firefighting lifts but they do x y and z um and i thought i'd always
02:15:47 x y and z um and i thought i'd always been absolutely clear that that was the case and and always very clear that they don't have a hatch and there are other criteria that they don't have but carl remained utterly convinced and so he's he's i think in the end he
02:15:58 so he's he's i think in the end he probably started to make me doubt myself but it was never i was never going to use him as music evacuation lift because i remained unconvinced that they were firefighting well we'll come back to the subject of lift later
02:16:09 lift later in your evidence um can we move on in time then cst403061
02:16:20 yes um this uh is the 27th of september 2010 letter recording
02:16:27 recording what transpired at the 24th of september 2010 meeting with you and if we go to page three and look at the bottom of the page you can see
02:16:35 can see there's a heading there peeps yes and he records again by what looks like a cut and paste from the 23rd of june letter
02:16:44 letter the same text in the first paragraph and and then he goes on to say you explained do you see in the fourth line you explain that the resident's newsletter carries articles
02:16:55 resident's newsletter carries articles asking any resident to contact tmo if they are experiencing any mobility or sensory problems and then he says this tmo have recently introduced a comprehensive program to
02:17:07 introduced a comprehensive program to gathering information about residents including any disabilities and their physical ability and mobility to respond to any emergency situations this information will be inputted on a tp tracker system and held
02:17:19 on a tp tracker system and held centrally
02:17:20 centrally the additional information will be used to assess if residents may require additional devices to provide them with early warning of smoke stroke fire in their home and or development of a personal
02:17:31 and or development of a personal emergency evacuation plan peeps
02:17:36 now
02:17:39 he as you can see recalls a summary of the information you gave him at the meeting
02:17:44 meeting does that accurately reflect what you told him on this subject um i must have been advised by housing colleagues that the tp tracker system was being brought in or in place in
02:17:55 was being brought in or in place in order to identify um vulnerabilities disabilities and other information in order to provide a better service to the residents including in relation to fire safety right
02:18:05 right so did you explain to him as he's recorded here that the tma would be gathering information about residents with disabilities and and physical ability uh in all
02:18:16 and and physical ability uh in all tma-managed properties that's what i'd been led to believe so that sounds like right yes that sounds correct so not just to be clear not not only sheltered housing no no no uh now he says that you referred to a
02:18:28 no uh now he says that you referred to a resident's newsletter was that the link magazine
02:18:31 magazine most likely right did you include that request
02:18:35 request in link magazine in other words that any resident
02:18:40 resident uh who was concerned about their ability to respond in an emergency should tell the tmo i don't believe it was worded i don't think i explicitly said that
02:18:51 think i explicitly said that no the answer to the question is no i i think i would always when i did any articles in the link i would have always um encourage people with any queries or concerns or to contact me i would have always given
02:19:03 to contact me i would have always given my contact teachers and we would often have
02:19:06 have also included fire brigade details in terms of if people wanted instead of coming to the landlord go to straight to the fire and rescue service we would have put those details as well some people would have preferred to do that and not share that kind of because
02:19:17 that and not share that kind of because and that's the other thing some people didn't want to share that information because it's personal no i understand that but my question is really a systemic one is it we have reviewed the disclosure of link magazine between 2009 and 2012 at the very least and we
02:19:30 2009 and 2012 at the very least and we see no reference to peeps in there at all
02:19:32 all okay no yes sorry sorry to interrupt um and i will slow down we i i was always reluctant to to use the
02:19:43 i was always reluctant to to use the term peeps i think that's just a bit inaccessible to people so i would have described it in terms of people who had fire safety concerns or concerns about being able to to leave their home or what the guide
02:19:56 to leave their home or what the guide should be
02:19:57 should be in order to protect themselves and their family it would have been couched in those terms i don't think peeps would have been a term that okay i mean it looks from what mr stokes has recorded here
02:20:08 has recorded here as i've read to you that the tmo's policy at this point was was to go out and identify and gather information about residents who had a
02:20:21 information about residents who had a need for a personal emergency evacuation plan rather than on relying rather than relying on housing officers or esa's to to bring the information to you it was sort of a combination of both
02:20:32 it was sort of a combination of both really that they had they seemed to have a system in place for obtaining the information um but um i wouldn't have i would i didn't feel it was appropriate
02:20:43 i would i didn't feel it was appropriate for somebody to give me a list of addresses with people's vulnerabilities because it's personal information i think it was impo important that the housing
02:20:51 housing officer who was dealing with that individual and had a relationship with them
02:20:56 them checked with them that they were happy for me or one of my colleagues to make contact with them i see so maybe the word gathering is the source of the problem here is this intending to communicate to mr
02:21:07 is this intending to communicate to mr stokes that that the program that the tmo have recently introduced was one of collating such information as was volunteered to it or on the other hand proactively going
02:21:18 or on the other hand proactively going out and getting it
02:21:21 why okay i believe the way it was conveyed to me that housing management were trying to proactively um obtain information
02:21:32 um obtain information more information about their residents about our residence which would allow us to
02:21:37 to deliver a better service in on all fronts in terms of housing management um in terms of fire safety and in terms of cleaning services the whole thing
02:21:47 thing um so but people obviously still have the option whether they want to respond to that so it was proactive but it couldn't necessarily be assured that it would be comprehensive do you remember who it was
02:21:58 comprehensive do you remember who it was who gave you the information that we see reflected there namely that the tmo had recently introduced a comprehensive program to gather information about residents i can't recall at this
02:22:09 about residents i can't recall at this stage it would have been somebody either from housing management or from the policy team who who were perhaps leading on the project did they give you a document a summary of what it what this system was unlikely right do you know who it was
02:22:23 unlikely right do you know who it was or sorry would that be speculation i see um now he refers as does carl stokes to the tp tracker did you provide carl
02:22:34 the tp tracker did you provide carl stokes with access to the tp tracker at the time no i don't think it would be appropriate for him to have access to personal data right was there did you discuss with mr stakes how he could have
02:22:45 discuss with mr stakes how he could have access to
02:22:46 access to uh personal data that was perhaps uh trimmed so that the particularly personal elements could not be seen by him i don't recall doing that or asking the particular residents whether they would consent
02:22:58 they would consent to their personal information being seen by the fire risk assessor so that he could
02:23:01 could he could assess their risk um i don't recall doing it did you agree with mr stakes that she would provide him with information about
02:23:13 would provide him with information about residents
02:23:14 residents who were especially at risk in tmo properties
02:23:20 i don't i don't recall that conversation although i may have done and the reason i'm i'm asking you that is that mr stokes said in his evidence that you had agreed to provide him with that information and he said that on day 137 both at page
02:23:34 and he said that on day 137 both at page 70 at line 19 and at 74 at line 14 and he he actually says that that was specifically agreed with him in september
02:23:43 september 2010. is that right he may be right i don't recall i see were you in any way reliant on him to identify disabled residents in his fra work and bring them to your attention um
02:23:55 attention um i would have encouraged anybody to gather information which was relevant to residents that allowed us to tailor services to their needs so i would have expected our estate staff
02:24:06 i would have expected our estate staff uh
02:24:06 uh contractors who were regularly on site and and
02:24:10 and and and carl if he came across anything that he
02:24:13 he um or if he met a resident who clearly wasn't very able-bodied it was really struggling um and he saw them enter their flat i would expect him to to highlight that as a general matter i
02:24:24 to highlight that as a general matter i can see why you say that but my question is really this did you ever have any reason to think that mr stokes uh thought that you were reliant on him to to go out and identify disabled
02:24:36 to to go out and identify disabled residents
02:24:37 residents as part of his role as a risk assessor a fire risk assessor um i don't i don't believe that he thought i was dependent on him
02:24:48 dependent on him for that information but i think it's reasonable um it was reasonable to expect him to feedback on on relevant information i mean he did in a range of areas in
02:24:59 mean he did in a range of areas in relation to repairs etc outside um his direct scope of work so i would have expected him to to do the same now can i ask you please to look
02:25:11 now can i ask you please to look at an email run in september 2010 so uh same month as this letter
02:25:22 rbk3026862
02:25:26 and if we look at page one at the second half or bottom of page one you can see that this is an email from robert black
02:25:35 to gene dantif rbkc copy to laura johnson and you dated 30th of september and he says gene and brian thank you for
02:25:47 and he says gene and brian thank you for sending me the attached article outlining the potential conflict for disabled people between fire safety and high-rise living i feel it is worth reiterating that as we have now completed the fire risk
02:25:58 we have now completed the fire risk assessments on all of our potentially high risk
02:26:01 high risk which includes all of our high-rise blocks and in each case the evacuation strategy has been confirmed as being stay put defend in place specifically the assessment assessments
02:26:12 specifically the assessment assessments have confirmed that because these blocks consist of purpose-built self-contained dwellings
02:26:16 dwellings and the and the compartmentation is good if a fire were to break out elsewhere in the block the residents would be safe to stay put obviously if the fire was in their flat they should evacuate immediately and then he goes on to say however with
02:26:29 and then he goes on to say however with regard to emergency procedures for disabled residents we are aiming to produce personal emergency evacuation plans peeps specifically as and when people's disabilities are brought to our attention
02:26:39 attention there is a need to produce a peep to clearly identify what their emergency procedures would be and if necessary to fit devices to help them to help give them early warning of fire
02:26:50 warning of fire in truth to date we've only done this in a small number of cases most notably where residents had no hearing and impaired speech and or were blind and we liaised with the lfb to fit the most appropriate detector
02:27:02 most appropriate detector however the fire risk assessments have clearly identified the need for us to extend this work in relation to residents known by us to have disabilities
02:27:11 the fras themselves if we turn the page the fras themselves have sometimes identified individual residents uh we who who we should target and the tp tracker and big wow work will clearly identify others
02:27:25 wow work will clearly identify others we were planning to work with the new fra consultant to produce generic peaks for larger blocks that could then be personalized to individuals needs and now first do you remember receiving this email um
02:27:37 do you remember receiving this email um not especially but i must have done yes did robert black discuss the tmo's position on peeps with you at any stage before sending this response
02:27:46 response it's likely that he did do you think it accurately reflects the tmo's position on peeps as of 2010 as it's september 2010. it may have done at that time but i would generic peeps are not something that i would ever consider
02:27:58 that i would ever consider so um did you or anybody else at the tma work with carl stokes who by then was the or about to become the new fra consultant at least for the medium-term program
02:28:08 program to produce a generic peep for residents no because my impression of peeps is they have to be tailored to the individual's needs and so i just don't think a generic
02:28:19 and so i just don't think a generic peeps is
02:28:20 peeps is worth the papers written on really were any processes put in place to personalize peeps to individuals needs well that's what this is saying that once we know people who require targeted
02:28:31 once we know people who require targeted assistance or help then then that's what we need to get on and do yes and was there any process put in place to take that forward um what what i've said before is
02:28:42 um what what i've said before is is that a housing management um knew that they should prioritize um and identify people and and let us know and then we would take that forward on an individual basis
02:28:53 on an individual basis indeed robert black says here that there was a need to identify residents who should be targeted for peeps and he suggested that should be done through the tp tracker and the big wow
02:29:04 through the tp tracker and the big wow we we know what the tp tracker is what was the big wow i have no idea sorry right
02:29:08 right you have no idea when you read this was it as much of a mystery probably did you not ask him i i may have done um it may have been um it's possible and and possibly likely
02:29:20 and possibly likely when we where we had resident engagement programs of activity they often had a specific tmo get on board or they had a silly name did you use the tp tracker
02:29:32 silly name did you use the tp tracker or big wow whatever that was to identify vulnerable residents in the event did i sorry did you yes did you or your team no i wouldn't have had access to tp tracker um
02:29:44 tracker um i would have been going back to housing management and reiterating the need for them to identify people because they they may have ended up with a great big long list but actually maybe a smaller number of those people actually needed fire safety advice
02:29:57 actually needed fire safety advice guidance assistance um or ultimately a peep you say you wouldn't have had access to the tp tracker don't believe i did who would have done or who did i can't i can't say definitively
02:30:08 can't say definitively but it's personal sensitive personal data isn't it so there are data issues i would think that since the housing officers
02:30:16 officers are the people with whom that conditions of tenancy relationship with with residents is in place then i would think it would be the housing management colleagues what does tp stand for maybe it's obvious but i can't get i'm assuming
02:30:27 obvious but i can't get i'm assuming it's tenant participation but uh i don't know for sure so my question again
02:30:32 again who had access to the tp tracker okay and um i can't tell you definitively but my understanding would be that it would be housing management colleagues
02:30:43 would be housing management colleagues and possibly also home ownership colleagues who are the housing management colleagues um so it would be the housing officers and their and their managers uh people who ultimately theresa wasn't around at that
02:30:54 ultimately theresa wasn't around at that time but people who were ultimately under theresa brown's jurisdiction and how did they report to you
02:31:00 you you or your team um well the north team sat just in front of where we sat so we had lots of day-to-day contact about all sorts of things
02:31:09 things and the south team um ultimately moved to the southern state but um yeah we were in regular dialogue um with them about all sorts of issues on estates health and safety issues and fire safety issues
02:31:20 and safety issues and fire safety issues but that team didn't have anything to do with carl's steaks did it no no so was there a system or a conduit for information put in place whereby information that came into
02:31:32 place whereby information that came into the tp
02:31:33 the tp tracker through the housing management colleagues would be filtered to your team health and safety team so that they could be taken account of
02:31:44 could be taken account of when analyzing risk in a building and specifically the need for a peep for an individual i think the answer to your question is there was no formal system but there was quite a lot of informal um
02:31:57 but there was quite a lot of informal um briefing discussion reminding um and requests for advice etc so there wasn't a formal system right so if carl stokes had wanted to know who the residents
02:32:09 know who the residents in grenfell tower were who had vulnerabilities in the case of a need to conduct an evacuation of any kind how would he go about getting it he would have asked me
02:32:20 would have asked me and i would have asked a neighborhood colleague with access to the system but i'm not confident that that actually happened that's what should have could have happened but i'm not comfortable with my next question
02:32:31 not comfortable with my next question and you've answered it thank you now fire safety letter to residents um we've talked about link let's look at letters this is tmo one double zero four eight two seven
02:32:43 one double zero four eight two seven five
02:32:48 uh this is a a letter wait for it to come
02:32:51 come up it's a letter um it looks like a standard form letter dated the 18th of january 2011 to uh the resident at 173 grenfell tower
02:33:03 the resident at 173 grenfell tower maybe it isn't a standard form letter and if you go to page two in that you can see
02:33:15 in that you can see that in the penultimate transport paragraph in bold as a sentence which says please remember that lifts must not be used in the event of fire
02:33:27 must not be used in the event of fire and then it says this please do consult the additional fire safety information in our residence handbook and do not hesitate to contact me if you have any queries about this letter about your own fire procedure or if you
02:33:38 about your own fire procedure or if you feel that you would have any difficulty hearing or responding to your smoke alarm are not able-bodied or have any any special requirements we will work with you to produce a personal emergency evacuation plan taking account
02:33:50 emergency evacuation plan taking account of your specific needs now first question is did you draft that letter yes you did were these letters or letters with that statement in it
02:34:01 or letters with that statement in it sent to all residents in grenfell tower um i don't know actually right i don't know what the the context of this is sorry it's possible but
02:34:12 of this is sorry it's possible but i can't say the text that you've put in at that last paragraph there was that a text
02:34:15 text that you devised specifically for the resident of flat 173 in grenfell tower in january 2011 or was it a general text that you were using
02:34:26 that you were using more widely for communicating with residents across the tma stock i don't remember what led to this communication um but it but there were
02:34:38 communication um but it but there were you know there were often standard messages so that was often fairly standard text i i can't really answer your question completely i'm afraid
02:34:45 afraid in what circumstances would you write to a tenant and include that text um exactly what we were saying that if in the first instance if somebody's being
02:34:56 the first instance if somebody's being referred
02:34:57 referred to me or or the housing manager is a bit concerned
02:35:01 concerned um and sort of suggests i would try and make contact with the individual if i couldn't get them on the phone or or in the flesh then i might drop them in an email or a line or a letter sorry i can't be more specific because i
02:35:13 sorry i can't be more specific because i don't recall the 173. no no in general terms there do i take it from that this text would go into a letter to a resident as a response by you rather than as an active
02:35:24 active search for data yeah i think that's very common yes
02:35:30 uh do you know whether the tma prepared any peep
02:35:35 any peep as a response to this letter or a response to a response to this letter i don't believe that we did i don't know if i got a response to the letter i don't i don't know what what the history of the letter is so
02:35:46 what the history of the letter is so sorry now let's look at the 2010 fra for grenfell tower if you can please this is at cst403181 29th december 2010 fra for grenfell
02:35:57 29th december 2010 fra for grenfell and if we look at page 16 in that document we can go straight to it section 13 top of the page disabled people and there's tick as a
02:36:08 disabled people and there's tick as a tick box you can see the text says it's considered that the building is provided with reasonable arrangements for means of escape for disabled people tick yes and then in the text underneath it it says this
02:36:20 it it says this at the time of the risk assessment there was no evidence of any resident within the premises who suffers from sensory impairment that would prevent them from hearing a shouted warning of fire tmo have recently introduced a comprehensive program to gathering
02:36:31 comprehensive program to gathering information about tenants including any disabilities and their physical ability and mobility to respond to any emergency situations this information will be in inputted on a tp tracker system and held centrally
02:36:43 a tp tracker system and held centrally the additional information will be used to assess if residents may require additional devices to provide them with early warning of smoke or fire in their home and or development of a personal emergency evacuation plan peeps and then
02:36:56 evacuation plan peeps and then both the lifts in this building are evacuation stroke firefighting lists and could be used in the evacuation of any disabled residents from the building now presumably this comprehensive program of gathering information
02:37:08 program of gathering information quotes on quotes was exactly what you had told him at the 24th of september 2010 meeting and he had recorded in his 27th of september letter yes yes yes
02:37:17 yes uh and before he completed the fra for grenfell tower in december 2010 as we see here did carl stokes
02:37:24 stokes ask you whether there were any residents in grenfell tower who had a physical disability which would affect what might affect their ability
02:37:31 ability to respond uh to an emergency situation i don't recall him doing so no did you check the tp tracker yourself to see what information was available about residents in
02:37:42 was available about residents in grenfell tower at that date so that you might be able to provide them to constructs i i don't know for sure but i think the honest answer is probably not why is
02:37:55 the honest answer is probably not why is that
02:37:56 that um i i
02:38:00 um i i i can't explain really um because i know to have got the information i'd have had to go through a colleague so it probably would have stuck in my mind um no i i'm sure i didn't
02:38:14 um no i i'm sure i didn't do do you know how it was that mr stokes was aware
02:38:18 was aware that there was no evidence of any resident within the premises uh suffering from sensory impairment i can only presume that he's he's basing that on
02:38:29 that on the residents who he saw on the day that he was carrying out his assessment i don't know whether he had conversations with anybody on site um or any on-site colleagues i'm not sure
02:38:40 any on-site colleagues i'm not sure right did you know that in fact at this time according to the tp tracker in june
02:38:47 in june 2010 six months before admittedly there were some 11 residents of grenfell tower with a vulnerability i didn't know right uh the the redacted version of
02:38:59 right uh the the redacted version of that just for our note is that inq30 is one four six three one but you didn't know that uh you should have known that they shouldn't you yes yes um
02:39:10 shouldn't you yes yes um do you remember reading this section of the fra
02:39:14 the fra not explicitly no but i would have done yes did you notice and it was generic to some extent but did you notice that called stakes only appear to be referring to individuals with hearing impairments but no other vulnerabilities
02:39:27 impairments but no other vulnerabilities such as
02:39:28 such as mobility or or sight
02:39:32 disabilities their physical ability and mobility
02:39:36 mobility um so i think he's covered quite a few but i appreciate it so wide well uh no sorry to be clear in his first sentence he says there's no evidence of
02:39:47 sentence he says there's no evidence of any resident within the premises who suffers from sensory impairment that would prevent them from hearing a shouted warning of fire
02:39:54 fire now that's oral clearly yeah but not visual or mobility is it do you know why he limited his observation
02:40:05 why he limited his observation to a sensory impairment about hearing i don't did you ask him i don't recall doing so now were you not concerned that he might not have been considering the needs of other individuals who would be
02:40:17 needs of other individuals who would be referred to as disabled and therefore deserving of a peeps a peep um
02:40:25 i i don't think he meant to be as as specific as that and i don't think he was intending to exclude but i appreciate that's what it says there but it's odd isn't it i mean on the face
02:40:37 but it's odd isn't it i mean on the face of it it's a very limited approach to disability isn't it well it appears to be but as i say i i don't
02:40:47 don't believe that that was his approach to disability i just think it's it's a poor reflection i mean do you accept that but for the first sentence about shouted warnings of fire the information that carl stakes is included here is
02:40:58 that carl stakes is included here is essentially a cut and paste from the letter he wrote to you on the 27th of september did it make you concerned that the information was not tailored or specific to grenfell tower but was just plonked as it were into
02:41:10 but was just plonked as it were into this fra the same as it had for all others
02:41:13 others i don't think i picked it up at the time why is that just sheer volume of things that i was reading and things that i was actioning and it's not an excuse i can't
02:41:24 actioning and it's not an excuse i can't i should have picked it up right
02:41:29 um we may come back to that answer due course
02:41:33 course as we look at other fras i'd like to ask you next about your discussions with the lfb on the subject of peeps can i please show you rbk three zeros five three 53638
02:41:53 this is a set of minutes with the lfb fire safety team on the 20th of july 2010 and if you look at the first page you can see there that as well as and much more from rvkc
02:42:04 well as and much more from rvkc you and carl stokes were present with two people from the lfb yes yes if we go to page six of this minute we can see under paragraph 6.5 um allocations
02:42:16 under paragraph 6.5 um allocations policy there um there is a sub paragraph two 6.5.2 in the middle of your screen which says this there was some discussion about how much we know about the vulnerability
02:42:27 much we know about the vulnerability straight disability of the residents in rbkc properties and janus advised that we had recently undertaken an initiative to gather more information of this nature this will allow us to establish where individuals require a peep what
02:42:40 where individuals require a peep what was the initiative that you were referring to there well i don't know whether tp track has been superseded by something else i i'm sorry i can't say at this stage i know that
02:42:51 i can't say at this stage i know that housing management regularly were looking for more effective ways to gather the information i don't know if they were still on tp tracker or they've moved to a tenancy audit i'm sorry i'm not clear at 2011. this time it's pretty clear if
02:43:05 2011. this time it's pretty clear if this minute is accurate that what you were telling them that you it was that you had a recent initiative to collect more information not merely to collate it internally
02:43:17 yes yes um did and presumably that collection initiative did not depend on residents volunteering information but but instead
02:43:28 volunteering information but but instead the tmo
02:43:29 the tmo going out and getting it um yes i believe it would i mean i think all of these initiatives that the house management team put in place were about being proactive but residents
02:43:40 were about being proactive but residents still
02:43:40 still don't have to provide it so it's still not necessarily comprehensive is all the point i'm making um but yeah we weren't requiring people to write in and volunteer the information but they still wanted
02:43:52 information but they still wanted they had to want to provide it what what was what was the system whereby the tmo was gathering more information about people's vulnerabilities so i i can't
02:44:04 people's vulnerabilities so i i can't add
02:44:04 add anything to what i said earlier i know housing management colleagues regularly were looking at most effective ways of
02:44:10 ways of obtaining that information and i'm not clear in 2011 which which system that that was that i was referring to the t i mean for your information the tp tracker was still in place at that
02:44:21 tracker was still in place at that moment at that time okay well it might have been that i'd sorry i
02:44:26 sorry i can't tell you for sure um i mean this is in july 2011 uh uh we've seen that you told carl stokes in september that there was the tp tracker in place if it's the tp tracker then
02:44:38 in place if it's the tp tracker then it's it's not so recent but maybe it's that maybe it's the same system is that can you help with that no i can't it may be i'm sorry can we take it from the minutes that you did at least tell the nfb that the tma were in the process of gathering more
02:44:50 were in the process of gathering more information about vulnerable and or disabled residents that's what they say that's what it says and that you would prepare peeps for such residents where necessary yes yes were you aware
02:45:03 where necessary yes yes were you aware of how much information had actually been gathered thus far by july 2011 no
02:45:11 and this note suggests that the tma would proactively identify residents who required a peep i think you've accepted that
02:45:16 that um but there's no mention here is there that a pete would only be prepared if a resident required assistance from the tmo
02:45:26 uh no there it's that's not how it's worded yeah no so do you accept that looking at this document the lfb might reasonably have believed and indeed
02:45:37 indeed rbkc might reasonably have believed that the tmo was proactively identifying vulnerable residents in general needs accommodation for the purposes of deciding whether a peep was needed for that person
02:45:52 well yes that's what it says isn't it yes now you had a further meeting with the lfb
02:45:56 the lfb uh two months later on the 26th of september 2012. sorry uh 14 months later on the 26th of september 2012
02:46:07 on the 26th of september 2012 can we go to the email about that it's a tmo-00863422
02:46:25 it's a tmo-00863422 and it's an email from claire wise to amanda johnson and you're copied in on it
02:46:33 it and it says hi all janice and i met with london fire brigade this morning i thought it would be useful to summarize our discussions on sheltered housing
02:46:42 housing and you can see that nick cummery was there rbkc and ldlba hf team leader was there etc as well as andy jack
02:46:53 who's the main author and so it says of the rro
02:46:57 the rro and then she goes on to say this in the fourth paragraph down towards the bottom of your screen they stress that if there are residents in buildings that cannot independently evacuate or may have other
02:47:08 independently evacuate or may have other needs that impact on their ability to carry out fire safety procedures for example if they're hard of hearing then the fire brigade need to know local fire stations do not need to be informed it would be good practice for a list of residents with additional needs
02:47:20 list of residents with additional needs to be kept close to the fire alarm control panel the information could be stored in girder boxes or less expensive boxes locked with a fire brigade padlock key the box should be marked for the attention of the fire brigade for use in
02:47:32 attention of the fire brigade for use in the event of a fire they believe that it is the person strike organization who manages the building that has the duty to develop a plan
02:47:40 plan with actions to be taken in the event of a fire and collect information on residents with additional needs i.e it's the responsibility of the landlord stroke building manager to establish the needs of residents though it is
02:47:51 needs of residents though it is acknowledged that residents are able to decline to disclose this information if they choose
02:47:58 why did claire wise attend the meeting with the lfb along with you do you remember um i don't remember i think actually i think she might be doing a masters or something in this particular
02:48:09 masters or something in this particular field
02:48:09 field so it was appropriate right yeah i think it's something like that right now now as i've shown you i hope clearly the email starts with a discussion or identifying the discussion
02:48:21 discussion or identifying the discussion about sheltered housing were these discussions related only to sheltered housing or do they also apply to general needs accommodation so far as you understood it at the time
02:48:32 um i think they were largely focused on sheltered housing um but the fire brigade were keen to extend
02:48:40 extend um the same provisions right i see so can we take it that this discussion covered both general needs housing and sheltered accommodation ideally yes it looks like it it looks like it from the from the tone of the
02:48:52 like it from the from the tone of the email but you you agree with that i think
02:48:56 um did you create a system to collect information on residents with additional needs as
02:49:02 needs as identified here no why is that um
02:49:11 i think i think this is what the fire brigade were aiming for but it wasn't actually what generally they were introducing um i think our anxiety was always
02:49:22 um i think our anxiety was always about having the ability to keep information if if we'd had a box locally in every block with with information that's quite substantial
02:49:33 substantial there's a paper document that needs to be updated on a regular basis because people's capacity is changing all the time i think we just saw that surely there would be a better way of doing it could is it something that we could do electronically
02:49:44 electronically um so we didn't we didn't practically do it in um in terms of hard copy documents and i think we pondered how we'd be able to do it electronically and then i don't think we
02:49:57 electronically and then i don't think we ever discussed it with a fire brigade again unfortunately um now the lga guide had been in place by this
02:50:08 had been in place by this time for about a year hadn't it did you do you remember whether at the meeting you argued with the lfb
02:50:16 the lfb based on the lga guide that you didn't need to put in place uh peeps for your residence in general needs housing uh i don't recall doing so no it doesn't
02:50:28 uh i don't recall doing so no it doesn't look like you did
02:50:32 does that tell us that uh you you weren't particularly reliant on that as a as the basis for not producing peeps um
02:50:45 we would i mean i just find that reiterating that we would have produced peeps in circumstances um where people needed assistance to get out of their their property providing we
02:50:57 out of their their property providing we could
02:50:58 could provide that assistance or their family could provide that assistance but there were lots of other situations where help and advice and guidance was given which wouldn't have been documented as peeps yes i see now moving forward in time to
02:51:10 yes i see now moving forward in time to december 2012 can we go to cst 30s 16416
02:51:21 now this is an email from you uh that's the second part of the screen i think we need is an email from you uh to uh carl stokes he's redacted out for
02:51:35 to uh carl stokes he's redacted out for some reason but um and what he what you are doing just just work with me with this it's not easy to see um is sending him an email on the 3rd of december and underneath the date it says
02:51:47 december and underneath the date it says for info received this late friday haven't even read it yet j and then immediately after the exclamation mark sorry j is you then it says from nicholas cummery london fire brigade and
02:51:59 nicholas cummery london fire brigade and then you've got the email the 30th of november 2012. yes yes and what's happened is it's all become crunched up together but you're it looks like you're forwarding to carl stokes on the 3rd of december
02:52:10 to carl stokes on the 3rd of december an email you got from nicholas cummery on the
02:52:13 on the not
02:52:26 line of that available as part of this communication we would like to include a list of 10 suitable premises within each borough which lfb considered would benefit from installation of afss that's automatic fire suppression
02:52:38 that's automatic fire suppression systems due to risk factors of the inhabitants using the attached appendices i am to assist the lfp borough commanders for h f and k and c with this identification process
02:52:49 process could i please request your assistance to identify suitable vulnerable persons in local authority premises my current deadline is 20th december 2012. thank you very much and if we look at the response to that
02:53:02 and if we look at the response to that from carl stakes to you at the top of your screen 3rd of december so same day about 25 minutes later carl stakes says this thanks for this janice i would say you
02:53:15 thanks for this janice i would say you have nobody that this refers to because if you had you would have undertaken a peep for them and implemented any findings which would have included additional fire safety measures if you identify anybody now questions
02:53:26 if you identify anybody now questions like
02:53:27 like why were they not included in the buildings fra spring to mind a good response i believe would be thank you for this information if we find anyone in future we will let you know and i will pass this on to the person oversees our list of persons
02:53:39 person oversees our list of persons who this may be applicable to carl
02:53:44 first why were you forwarding this email to carl stokes because generally he it was helpful for him to know about dialogue we were having with the
02:53:55 about dialogue we were having with the fire brigade so that if impacted on his high risk assessments or his approach to them um or if the fire brigade had changed their
02:54:03 their policies or procedures then he need to be aware of that did you speak to carl stokes on the telephone about this before he responded to you by email i don't recall now he suggests here
02:54:17 don't recall now he suggests here uh that at least you suggest but certainly he says i would say you have nobody that
02:54:28 he says i would say you have nobody that this refers to did you read that as a reference to there being no vulnerable persons at all in any tma-managed property no how did you read it um sorry could
02:54:40 no how did you read it um sorry could you humour me and just scroll down a bit i just wanted to establish whether it related to general needs or specialized housing
02:54:46 housing yes of course that's uh certainly absolutely look at the lower email um i mean it's not specific to any particular um location which is yeah i
02:54:58 um location which is yeah i would possibly have ignored it and gone to
02:55:01 to in the first instance my specialized housing
02:55:05 housing managers to say have you got anybody who fits this criteria
02:55:11 criteria because that's where you know the likelihood is that that's where the vulnerability is and that is documented and we're already sharing that information with the brigade so i just started in the first instance with that and then i would
02:55:23 instance with that and then i would i'm presuming then i would have gone to housing management colleagues to say is there anywhere that or have you got anybody who's come to like who you've got particular concerns about now we can actually see
02:55:34 now we can actually see that there was an attachment to this document that you got yeah uh which i think he refers to that is at cst
02:55:42 403191
02:55:47 let's just quick quickly have a look at that because that i think that might help
02:55:50 help um it's appendix a it's identifying the most vulnerable from fire did you read that when it came in i would have done it definitely so that that
02:55:59 that told you what he mr cummery regarded as the definition of vulnerable residence
02:56:05 residence uh and it's it's a it's a document that goes over some 11 pages it's not it's a it's a lengthy read um but it's got quite a lot of forms in it as well but the main part of it's the first two
02:56:16 the main part of it's the first two pages
02:56:17 pages when you read that you could at least understand what it was that that he wanted
02:56:21 wanted yes so coming back to carl stokes his uh email back to you please if we can cst 301-6416
02:56:35 can you explain why mr stakes thought it appropriate to advise you to say that you have nobody that this refers to um no i can't i mean clearly you
02:56:46 um no i can't i mean clearly you couldn't agree that there were no vulnerable residents in the whole of the i couldn't and i wouldn't
02:56:53 wouldn't no no
02:56:57 were you not concerned by mr stokes's attitude
02:57:00 attitude as reflected by this email um i can't recall and as i read it now it seems a bit bizarre to be honest it's concerning but i think it's a stranger
02:57:11 concerning but i think it's a stranger well it was more than concerning with great respect did he he's suggesting that you tell the lfb a lie yeah but he should know me well enough i wouldn't ever well maybe but but that is what he's doing and my question is what i mean did this not ring alarm
02:57:22 what i mean did this not ring alarm bells with you about carl stokes i don't remember it doing i think i would have just gone off and done what i thought was the right thing to do i'm sure i would have
02:57:33 right thing to do i'm sure i would have yes
02:57:34 yes and one can understand that but my question is whether you were is really about the depth of your concern when you received this document
02:57:42 document going on with it in the third paragraph he's saying if you identify anybody now questions like why were they not included in the buildings fra spring to mind
02:57:49 mind why was that a question which then did not spring to mind to you at that point um i feel it quite likely that i spoke to him on the phone on receipt of this
02:58:00 on the phone on receipt of this because that would normally have been been my my practice um because actually from my perspective that's irrelevant if you find people now then we amend the fra to reflect that
02:58:11 then we amend the fra to reflect that it's finding them that's important not that they weren't known before so i'm sure i would have discussed it with him
02:58:19 with him and gone ahead and done what i thought was the right thing to do right it looks on the face of it do you agree that he was more concerned about questions being asked about his fras than about actually getting on with what
02:58:30 than about actually getting on with what mr cummery was suggesting and identifying vulnerable residents in tma stock
02:58:37 we did have one similar exchange actually
02:58:40 actually um on a different matter where i felt like
02:58:43 like he had taken the wrong end of the stick it was about the dare tower um sorry my question again do you agree with me that on the face of it he was more concerned about being asked difficult questions about his fras
02:58:56 asked difficult questions about his fras rather than actually getting on with identifying vulnerable residents in the tma stock
02:59:01 tma stock from what it says here then that's what it looks like did you have a telephone conversation on receipt of this document um i'm sure i would have but it was 2012 so i can't definitely say that i did i'm absolutely sure i would have but
02:59:12 did i'm absolutely sure i would have but i can't remember it right and would this document on this email not have run an alarm bell with you
02:59:20 with you about mr stokes's uh integrity um i
02:59:29 um i that's why i would have spoken to him about it in in detail i'm pretty sure we would have clarified why he
02:59:35 why he was putting this down i i don't think i would have ended up with an ongoing concern or else i'd have done something more about it didn't you just ring him up and tell him that this is a completely outrageous
02:59:47 that this is a completely outrageous suggestion and there was no way you were going to
02:59:49 going to mislead the lfb in this way and i very likely did right mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is thank you very much
02:59:57 much well it's time we all had a break this ray for some lunch so we'll take that now we'll come back and resume please at two o'clock and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence
03:00:08 about your evidence while you're out of the room all right okay good thanks very much we'd like to go to the usher then please
03:00:20 right two o'clock then please
03:00:54 you