Paul Stedman (Estate Services Assistant/caretaker for Lancaster West Estate including Grenfell Tower) gives evidence about his inspections, training, and reporting of repairs. Admits accepting fair criticism about not chasing outstanding orders, explains weekly Friday inspections of Grenfell took about an hour, and describes how door closers went wrong 'just after the warranty ran out'.
00:00:24 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from two of the estate support assistants who worked for the tmo so who's your first witness mr clear
00:00:36 tmo so who's your first witness mr clear the first witness is paul stedman sir good thank you very much
00:00:51 good morning mr stedman i understand you're willing to make the affirmation so could you read the words on the screen please yeah i do solemnly sincerely and truly
00:01:03 yeah i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare
00:01:04 declare and affirm that the evidence i should give should be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much would you like to sit down and make stuff comfortable
00:01:33 good when you're ready mr clear thanks sir
00:01:36 sir good morning would you first confirm your name for the record uh yes it's paul stedman thank you mr steadman if at any time during your examination you require a break please say so that's not a problem
00:01:47 break please say so that's not a problem uh secondly please um if any of my questions are unclear please don't hesitate to say so and i'll rephrase them so that they are clear and thirdly and finally please do keep your voice up it's so
00:01:59 your voice up it's so the shorthand writer can capture everything you say accurately yes now you have prepared seven statements in relation to the fire at grenfell tower five of which are for the metropolitan police
00:02:10 metropolitan police and two of which were for the inquiry i'm just going to take you through each of them to confirm the dates and that they are yours the first statement for the metropolitan police was dated the 12th of july 2018
00:02:21 police was dated the 12th of july 2018 and can be found at met treble zero 39814
00:02:28 is that it yes the second statement for the metropolitan police is dated the 24th of august 2018 which can be found at met trouble0039812
00:02:41 which can be found at met trouble0039812 is that it yes the third statement for the metropolitan police was dated the 18th of february 2019 which can be found at met trouble0039853
00:02:54 is that it yes a fourth statement for the metropolitan police was also dated the 18th of february 2019 which can be found at met trouble zero six five double six
00:03:05 six five double six four and is that it yes and there are exhibits which i don't need to take you to but for the record or at met trouble zero six five six seven three and your fifth and final statement from metropolitan
00:03:17 and final statement from metropolitan police date of the 25th of march 2019 can be found at met trouble zero six five trouble six and is that it yes thank you and your first statement of
00:03:28 thank you and your first statement of the inquiry was dated the 17th of july 2019 and that can be found at
00:03:35 tm010049875 and is that it yes and finally your second statement is dated the 12th of may 2020 can be found at tm008
00:03:48 and is that that statement yes thank you have you read each of those statements recently
00:03:53 recently i have yes and can you confirm that they are true
00:03:57 are true yes andy you're happy for those statements to be taken as your evidence to this inquiry yes thank you right first of all i'd like to discuss with you your roles and responsibilities whilst you're employed
00:04:08 responsibilities whilst you're employed by the tmo now you explained that you were initially employed by the tmo in 2002 as a caretaker is that correct yes and the title of that role later changed to a state
00:04:18 a state services assistant or esa is that right uh
00:04:22 uh yes but before that it was a state inspector thank you we've caretakers then estate inspectors and then when we moved to
00:04:32 moved to the tmo we became esas thank you now you also explained that at the time of the fire you were esa for the lancaster west estate which included grenfell tower is that right yes for how many buildings
00:04:44 is that right yes for how many buildings were you responsible uh at the time of the fire it was the whole of the link west stage one and stage three which was probably one two three
00:04:58 probably somewhere in the region of about 12 different buildings and how many of those were high-rise residential buildings uh just a tower now you also say that you initially worked alongside robert regan on the
00:05:09 worked alongside robert regan on the link lancaster west estate but about 18 months before the fire you became the sole caretaker esa for lancaster west and therefore grenfell tower is that a fair summary
00:05:20 fair summary yes apart from managing the whole estate did your role change in any way um yes when when i first started there we was basically like
00:05:32 started there we was basically like normal caretakers uh just checking bits and pieces and then then we became estate inspectors uh we we was raising our own repairs on the computer
00:05:45 raising our own repairs on the computer and the system then when the emb folded and the tmo took over they took that all away for us and we became basic caretakers again so yes our role
00:05:56 basic caretakers again so yes our role did change thank you now we don't need to go to it but at paragraph 16 of your second inquiry statement you explain that keith stevenson was your direct line manager is that right he was my supervisor yeah and after he
00:06:09 he was my supervisor yeah and after he left you reported directly to tony o'hara yes siobhan rumble and then nicola bartholomew is that right yes and that your memory was that you reported to martin barr from a matter of
00:06:20 reported to martin barr from a matter of weeks
00:06:21 weeks for the lancaster way sorry when the lancaster west estate management board folded
00:06:25 folded but he then moved south and so you came under the supervision of louise netson donnie is that right yes now
00:06:34 yes now in her evidence and the reference is tmo double zero eight seven one zero two one forward slash seven paragraphs thirty four to thirty five we don't need to go to it uh nicola bartholomew said that you
00:06:46 uh nicola bartholomew said that you reported to her as neighborhood team leader from may 2016 when she joined the tmo is that right yes until august 2016 when um you reported to louise netson
00:06:57 when um you reported to louise netson donny
00:06:57 donny who was the estate services team leader for the north of the borough yes that's correct and so it would appear that you reported directly to nicola bartholomew from may 2016 to
00:07:08 nicola bartholomew from may 2016 to august 2016. yes and louise netson donny from august 2016 onwards yes thank you and after the restructure in august 2016 did you have any involvement with nicola
00:07:20 did you have any involvement with nicola bartholomew at all um not not really only that that she was manager on the lanc west now martin barr said that um having been
00:07:31 now martin barr said that um having been seconded to a role in the south of the borough
00:07:34 borough he resumed uh responsibility for the the northern team as it were yeah um in around january february 2017. does that sound about right to you uh yes i know he did come back when when
00:07:45 uh yes i know he did come back when when he
00:07:46 he left the south and he came back to the north um
00:07:49 north um he became our team leader it was from a matter of weeks probably four five six weeks and then he left and then he left in may 2017 i think
00:08:00 then he left in may 2017 i think um after may 2017 um who you reporting to thereafter
00:08:09 uh i think it was i think louise took over again okay thank you now if we can now look in more detail at your role um as a caretaker inspector than esa
00:08:22 caretaker inspector than esa now in your paragraph eight of your first statements of the inquiry you said that generally my duties including conducting regular inspections of all the tmo buildings within my area to check for cleanliness state of repair
00:08:34 to check for cleanliness state of repair lighting
00:08:35 lighting and general upkeep of these areas is that fair yes and at paragraph nine you've gone to say more specifically you carried out weekly health and safety inspections where you're acquired
00:08:46 inspections where you're acquired to various features of a building which you list including for example the lifts and communal fire doors is that a fair summary yeah now was that the summary of your day-to-day role
00:08:57 day-to-day role uh yes from from building to building we didn't do
00:09:01 didn't do well i didn't do every building every day so it was certain buildings on certain days and as part of that role would you identify any repairs that were necessary to repairs direct
00:09:12 direct uh yes but your role wasn't to carry out the repairs yourself is that right now paragraph 13 of the same statement you say i would check the communal fire
00:09:23 you say i would check the communal fire doors as part of my estate inspections to ensure that they were closing properly however i did not inspect flat entrance doors other than to check them visually on an ad hoc basis
00:09:35 ad hoc basis putting it differently is it fair to say that you carried out no internal inspection of the flat entrance doors yeah we did we didn't check flight entrance doors now you say your visual inspection was on an ad hoc basis
00:09:47 on an ad hoc basis what would prompt an ad hoc inspection of them
00:09:50 of them uh if if if i was in that bit if i wasn't doing that building on that day only to deliver letters and then then i would check on my on my way down that that would be
00:10:02 on my on my way down that that would be a dock this may be impossible to answer but
00:10:05 but are you able to give the panel a steer as to how frequently in practice you would be inspecting the flat entrance doors off for example grenfell uh well i was i think i was doing that
00:10:16 uh well i was i think i was doing that building i'm not sure if it was once or twice a week sometimes if i had a spare half hour i used to pop up and and have a quick look so
00:10:24 so you could be looking at maybe two three four times a week thank you now is it right that you also carried out monthly health and safety checks
00:10:32 checks yes of every building on the lancaster west estate yes now um we don't need to go to it but in your first statement for the for the police on page two it's the
00:10:44 for the police on page two it's the third paragraph third line you say we had a defined role that we stuck to on a daily basis initially i would walk around the whole estate two to three times a day find any repairs that needed doing and
00:10:56 find any repairs that needed doing and then in the afternoon i would send them through to the various contractors is it fair to say that this walk around was an informal uh inspection rather than a more formal health and safety
00:11:07 health and safety inspection uh yes and would you describe it as a
00:11:11 it as a as a basic review uh yeah now i'm sorry just tell me this when you went on your walk around the estate did that involve
00:11:24 walk around the estate did that involve going in
00:11:25 going in to any of the buildings um sometimes not all of the time yeah most of the time if it was if if i was doing that building then then yes i would check the building
00:11:37 then yes i would check the building inside
00:11:38 inside if i wasn't doing that building usually i'd just walk around on the outside because it was quite a big estate yeah it sounds like you had a sort of rotor for looking at particular buildings on particular days is that right yes thank you now
00:11:52 is that right yes thank you now you also say in your evidence that you carried out estate inspections every two or three months which would take a couple of hours in which you would walk around the estate with the housing officer member of the residents association and
00:12:03 member of the residents association and residents what was the purpose of those inspections uh that was so that the the the ra or all the residents if if they had picked up on anything
00:12:14 up on anything that they could walk around and show us or if
00:12:17 or if even if we was walking around and they noticed something with those inspections regularly carried out up until the date of the fire as far as i know yes um was a record
00:12:29 as far as i know yes um was a record kept of those estate inspections uh there should have been yeah yeah who would have been responsible for keeping those records uh whoever was the housing officer at the time i think
00:12:41 the housing officer at the time i think it was millicent so not you no
00:12:46 now you've also mentioned um in your first statement to the police at page four that quotes on top of doing our own work we are given fras to do close quotes can you explain
00:12:58 fras to do close quotes can you explain what you meant by doing fras um well we we had our own daily routine that we used to do but then we used to get a load of fras come
00:13:10 we used to get a load of fras come through and we we depending how important they were some were just minor ones some were quite important we used to try and get them sorted out there and then if not we would give it two or three
00:13:21 if not we would give it two or three days to try and sort out and so just put differently you were carrying out
00:13:31 basically you were completing checking recommended actions that have been recommended by carl stokes the tmos fire risk assessor is that a fair way of putting it yeah we were checking what was on the ar what was on the the
00:13:43 what was on the the the fire risk assessment we were checking it and we we were basically getting getting the orders raised now we'll come on to that in more detail later on
00:13:54 later on now if i can turn now to the specific topic of grenfell itself uh in respect of the tower is it right that you carried out your weekly inspection every friday morning um yes that was
00:14:08 um yes that was when when the building was completed and handed back to us yes and how long would that inspection take
00:14:15 take each friday morning uh you're probably looking at about an hour hour and a half sometimes and again
00:14:22 again would it be fair to characterize those weekly checks as quite basic yeah now if i can turn to an email that janice ray sent you back on the 23rd of may 2017
00:14:34 on the 23rd of may 2017 that can be found at tm00862170
00:14:42 and you'll see at the very bottom of that page it was sent at 1728 hi paul and if we go over to page two
00:14:50 two could you please advise how frequently you inspect this block it's grantful also on which days the week and all those inspections completed am or pm
00:14:59 am or pm needed for an accident investigation if we go back to page one
00:15:08 you replied every friday am and then if we go up further at the top of the page all blocks once per week if i'm doing letters then i give it a little look over doing letters what does that
00:15:21 look over doing letters what does that mean
00:15:22 mean um if sometimes we had letters that needed
00:15:26 needed delivering so we used to do block letters or individual letters for for tenants and what was meant by a what or rather what did a little look over
00:15:38 involved uh that that was if it wasn't a friday and it was another day during the week so it'd be in addition to your friday
00:15:49 so it'd be in addition to your friday inspection yeah thank you now can i turn to the separate topic of
00:15:54 topic of training uh mr steadman in particular the fire safety training you received in your role as an esa now paragraph six of your first statements of the inquiry which can be found at
00:16:07 eight tmo100498 five forward slash two
00:16:12 you say that and i quote i was given a variety of training for this role including basic fire training fire safety training and first aid training internal trading was usually training was usually carried out
00:16:23 usually training was usually carried out by tmo's health and safety team specifically janice ray or adrian bowman now when you started as a caretaker in 2002
00:16:32 2002 did you receive any specific fire safety training at that point uh yes i don't think it was straight away i think it was a a week or a month or two in in
00:16:41 in in into the job and then we thanks to training
00:16:44 training and you remember in broad terms what that training involved uh well the fire training i'm not sure if it was half day or full day training but it it was a series
00:16:55 full day training but it it was a series of we we used to sit down with um the did the guy that used to do the training he was a fireman or an ex-fireman and you used to go
00:17:04 go easter shows all videos and and stuff and
00:17:09 and um out what what um fire extinguishers to use what fire is things which is not to use on on liquids and and it was it was it was a good training of
00:17:20 it was it was it was a good training of course
00:17:21 course i'm assuming that the former fireman wasn't carl stokes given that we're talking about 2002. no thank you now after 2002 um do you recall how often you received
00:17:33 um do you recall how often you received any further fire safety training uh i'm not sure if it was once a year or once every two years and how long would each training session take uh again some i think so i think the the first
00:17:45 some i think so i think the the first ones
00:17:47 ones sometimes you've done it for half a day sometimes you've done it for a whole day so
00:17:50 so i think it it varied from from year to year and what form did the training take for example was it online was it a no it was in in a room and and outside putting fires out as
00:18:01 and and outside putting fires out as well and who would provide that training would it be this former fireman yeah can you give the panel a broad idea of what topics the fire safety training would involve
00:18:14 the fire safety training would involve the topic is it used to be it was the he showed us a series of video clips of our fire start uh he showed us the video clip of the
00:18:25 uh he showed us the video clip of the i think it was the bradford football football ground he showed us that and and
00:18:30 and and the the build up without the fire actually started it was all sorts of videos did the training involve assisting with evacuation or anything of that nature thinking of the bradford example you were given
00:18:42 example you were given um yes yeah and when once it came into force were you given any training on the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005. not that i know of no were you given any
00:18:55 not that i know of no were you given any training on uh published guidance for example something entitled local government associations fire safety and purpose built blocks of flats does that ring any bells no no no we don't need to
00:19:08 no no no we don't need to um
00:19:12 i
00:19:16 don't need to go to anything further in your statements but beyond these sort of annual or
00:19:21 annual or biannual sessions do you recall any other fire safety training you were provided with no no now
00:19:28 no no now um can you remember being shown the tmos fire safety strategy at any stage uh no now if i can take you to one
00:19:39 uh no now if i can take you to one document which is tmo10017036 forward slash 14.
00:19:51 now just to tell you what this is this is the tmos fire safety strategy dated june
00:19:56 june 2017 and in respect to fire safety training for the tmo staff at section 21 at the bottom of that page it says this and i quote to increase knowledge awareness and promote
00:20:07 knowledge awareness and promote competence amongst staff the tmo requires all staff to complete a comprehensive online fire safety training course now at this time of the fire had you been provided with any online safety
00:20:19 provided with any online safety fire safety training um it's it's possible but i don't recall it no
00:20:28 can we turn over the page and the second line from the top starts with the words further and i quote further staff who are required to undertake regular communal inspections
00:20:39 inspections were also given additional more specialized training to cover fire safety systems and features in residential blocks stay put strategy communal storage issues other issues highlighted by the
00:20:50 issues other issues highlighted by the fras etc
00:20:51 fras etc to ensure they are clear on what to escalate this training is also provided annually now at the time of the fire do you remember receiving any quote specialized close quotes training
00:21:02 training no before
00:21:06 no before 2017 do you recall as is suggested here annual training as opposed to twice yearly training um i think it i don't
00:21:20 um i think it i don't i don't recall it no no were you ever provided with any fire safety training by janice ray or adrian bowman not that i can recall no [Applause]
00:21:36 now if we can stay on this page and go to the
00:21:40 to the and look at the end of paragraph 21 which is the one at the very top of the page
00:21:44 page it states that quotes ongoing refresher training
00:21:47 training at team meetings and on-site briefings for the health and safety team and the fire consultant did you have team meetings with the estate services team
00:21:58 with the estate services team uh yes we we we had team meetings regularly on on blank last year and who would attend those meetings uh most of the staff would janice ray or any of the health
00:22:09 would janice ray or any of the health and safety team attend um only if they if they needed to speak about something they would turn up and how often would the meetings take place uh i think it was every month
00:22:22 uh i think it was every month and during those meetings did you receive any refresher or updating fire safety training no was the focus on practical things such as getting repairs done or raising profile of certain matters
00:22:35 or raising profile of certain matters yes
00:22:39 did janice ray ever meet the estate services team to give instruction on or to emphasize the importance of fire safety as part of the esa role
00:22:53 uh she she might have come down if she was down on from time to time she might have mentioned something but i can't remember can you remember whether she gave you
00:23:04 can you remember whether she gave you any direction or emphasize the importance of particular aspects of fire safety that were important to your role as an esa no
00:23:18 apologies for asking this question it's one lawyers tend to but can you remember receiving any specific training on high-rise buildings and fire safety in high-rise buildings in 2010 uh no
00:23:33 can you remember sorry just to test you and see whether it jogs your memory i realize it's more than 11 years ago so apologies for that but there was a a meeting held with neighborhood officers community officers
00:23:44 officers community officers and esa's following a session of fire safety training but it was bespoke to high-rise buildings do you remember anything of that sort of 10 or 11 years ago no i
00:23:55 10 or 11 years ago no i can't remember that
00:23:58 now could we look at some esa fire safety training that took place on the 2nd december 2016 and that can be found at tm0104894
00:24:14 there we go it sets out the objectives and if we could go to page three we find a slide dedicated to the fire at a dare tower on the 31st of october
00:24:26 the 31st of october 2015. i'll just let you briefly read that so you can recall the the basic details
00:24:45 now was this training session on the 2nd december 2016 the first time you'd received training on the circumstances of and lessons learned from the adair tower fire
00:24:56 tower fire uh possibly yes can we look further in this slide show to page 24
00:25:09 and we see the common doors flat entrance doors esa responsibilities and if we turn over the page to page 25
00:25:20 over the page to page 25 26 and 27
00:25:28 26 and 27 now each of those three photos shows damaged
00:25:32 damaged flat entrance doors can you remember now whether
00:25:35 whether you were told that it was your responsibility to inspect flat entrance doors
00:25:40 doors either as a result of the adair tower or to re-emphasize what you've been required to do anyway uh i i
00:25:47 uh i i probably was but it would only have been a visual check not actually checking the door because nine times out of ten if you're going to knock on the door someone's even not going to be in or
00:25:58 someone's even not going to be in or they're not just just not going to answer so before the adair tower fire as i understand your evidence from what you said earlier you were inspecting flat entrance doors anyway we was we was inspecting flight entrance
00:26:10 we was we was inspecting flight entrance doors but it was just visually from the outside now can you remember
00:26:14 remember during this training session on the 2nd of december 2016 whether there's any discussion about inspecting self-closing devices on flat entrance doors um i think there was i think they wanted
00:26:27 um i think there was i think they wanted us to check them but how are we going to check them if they're built into the door were you given any advice on how to inspect them no during this session did people
00:26:40 no during this session did people raise any practical reservations about how
00:26:44 how you could check self-closing devices and how you would what advice uh you were seeking and allowed
00:26:50 allowed to allow you to inspect them um i can't recall
00:26:53 recall but they probably did they probably just mentioned what i mentioned because the nine times out of ten especially especially the the doors they had on the grenfell tower there was the i think they're called
00:27:04 there was the i think they're called perco
00:27:06 perco door closers and they're they're actually built into the doors and the only way you can check them is if the doors open do you remember during this training session whether you or any of your colleagues uh raise some skepticism as to how
00:27:17 uh raise some skepticism as to how frequently or indeed effectively you can expect self-closing voices i'd imagined most of them probably said something about it yes you say i'd imagine can you help us did they or didn't um more than likely yes now i don't know
00:27:30 more than likely yes now i don't know whether this helps a quiz was repaired for the purpose of this training if we go to this quiz it's
00:27:37 tmo10049868
00:27:42 i don't know whether that looks familiar but if we go to the final page which is page three and in particular question 14
00:27:53 page three and in particular question 14 which is the last one that asks what repairs should you report in relation to doors both flat entrance doors and
00:28:01 doors and communal area doors now from the training
00:28:04 training in respect to flat entrance doors what repairs
00:28:07 repairs should you have been reporting
00:28:11 in any damage to the door any letterbox missing or damaged
00:28:18 if if the door closer was on the outside and that wasn't working properly or if it didn't look right and then report that
00:28:28 can you help us just following on from that how were defects and flat entrance doors recorded following your weekly inspections for example
00:28:36 uh we we used to have um and well we had that we got an app on our phone that we get all that job through and we used to be able to raise the repairs
00:28:47 the repairs on the app or you could do it on the computer or phone customer services direct that's useful and following on from that point can we then look at the
00:28:58 then look at the the inspection process itself therefore in particular within the context of health and safety inspections of grenfell tower and in the first instance could i ask you to turn to
00:29:11 double four tm01028449
00:29:17 now does that front page look familiar to you
00:29:20 to you uh yeah no were you ever provided with your own copy
00:29:30 i don't recall it no would you have a a room where you could store your equipment and records with with a copy of this reference book be kept there uh more than likely yes
00:29:44 be kept there uh more than likely yes yeah yeah it would have been in the office somewhere would it be you're giving the impression that it's not something to which you regularly referred is that a fair impression to take from your evidence yeah
00:29:56 so you wouldn't be clutching this book as you were going around carrying out your inspections is that also fair uh yeah that's fair yeah now um i should say it's dated june 2013
00:30:09 now um i should say it's dated june 2013 and if we go to page 83 within this document it's internal 75 but 83 for the purposes of opus
00:30:22 but 83 for the purposes of opus and there you see inspections routine checklist
00:30:26 checklist does that look familiar yes
00:30:31 would you routinely use that checklist when you're carrying out your various inspections we we would would have used that before we got the app on our phone we had the app
00:30:40 app put on our phone i think it was around about
00:30:44 about 2015 so we would have been using sheets like that
00:30:47 like that up until then and routinely as well yeah yeah
00:30:50 yeah and so you'd complete it every time you carried out a daily inspection or a weekly inspection date daily usually weekly but if if daily yes now if i can actually go put this
00:31:02 now if i can actually go put this document to one side and go to tmo one double zero four nine eight seven five forward slash two
00:31:13 there we go and if we can go to paragraph seven this is your first statement to inquire in the fourth line just following on from the answers you've given you there refer to the pda device
00:31:24 device yeah you say i was also given a pda device by the tmo which was programmed with all of the checks that i needed to make for each item that needed to be checked i would click yes or no on my pda to
00:31:35 i would click yes or no on my pda to confirm
00:31:36 confirm that the particular item had been checked years ago before we were given pdas we record the results of our inspections by hand and then input them into a computer program
00:31:48 and so that's just to sort of give you context for the answers you've just given
00:31:52 given that remains a fair accurate in summary of your evidence
00:31:58 just to clarify matter when you started using the pdas did you stop using the checklist that we looked at taken from the esa's reference book yes yes
00:32:11 and you started using the pda if i recall your evidence rightly in or about 2015.
00:32:15 2015. i think it's around about there yeah now if we stay within this statement and go on to page 3 and paragraph 17 in the last sentence of that paragraph
00:32:26 in the last sentence of that paragraph you say this while the monthly health checks were slightly more involved than the weekly checks in reality they were undertaken in much the same way can you help us in what ways were the
00:32:37 can you help us in what ways were the monthly checks slightly more involved we we used to go around checking uh at that time when on the pda we we used to go around checking fire extinguishers
00:32:49 to go around checking fire extinguishers um fire alarms door closers closes everything got checked
00:32:57 checked prop properly rather than
00:33:00 just like a a weekly check everything got checked properly on a monthly and how long would that monthly check take uh it if we're talking brentfield tower you're probably looking at about two to three
00:33:11 probably looking at about two to three hours
00:33:14 now if we stay within this statement but turn to page five and paragraph 29
00:33:21 so the bottom of the page you say this the only concern i recall raising was whether we had too much work to do however this would never stop me conducting my fire safety checks thoroughly so i consider them to
00:33:33 checks thoroughly so i consider them to be very important and if we hold that statement in mind and turn to another one which is the first statement to the police which can be found at met trouble zero three nine eight one four
00:33:45 trouble zero three nine eight one four forward slash four
00:33:49 and five lines from the top in the middle of the line you say this i feel that some of the caretakers have to fit in too much work for their day to allow
00:34:00 allow one caretaker has 40 blocks the tmo only allowed the caretakers 30 to 60 minutes to check everything the fire checks require you to inspect everything such as the fire doors and
00:34:11 everything such as the fire doors and emergency lighting now does your statement there reflect the position that you experience before the fire uh yes now what checks did the 30 to 60
00:34:24 uh yes now what checks did the 30 to 60 minute
00:34:24 minute allowance apply to was it the weekly or the monthly checks both who set that allowance of things
00:34:31 things i'm not sure to be honest with you but you're clear it was a set allowance yeah do you know why it was said
00:34:41 said um basically the reason why it's set because they they never replaced the the caretakers that retired or left over the years so over over the years
00:34:54 over the years so over over the years the caretakers have got less and less so the
00:34:56 the the workload has got more and more so you have to get through your blocks each day
00:35:02 day now following on from that was the set allowance of 30 to 60 minutes sufficient for you to carry out the checks to the standard that was required on on some blocks yes some smaller
00:35:14 on on some blocks yes some smaller blocks
00:35:16 blocks would grandpa be one of the larger blocks then yes and did you ever raise concerns with anyone that you had insufficient time to complete the necessary checks in relation to grenfell all the time and with whom did you raise those
00:35:27 and with whom did you raise those concerns line managers supervisors whoever so that would be louise uh nets and donji yeah
00:35:39 louise uh nets and donji yeah and nicola both omni yeah martin barr and how would you raise them would it be in conversation or would it be phone calls or would it be email uh it's it's usually raised in a one-to-one and when were those one-to-ones uh
00:35:51 and when were those one-to-ones uh monthly
00:35:55 did they do much about the concerns that you raised no
00:36:01 were you a lone voice or did any of your other colleagues make the same point we we all had the same voice did you ever collectively raise your concerns with anyone more senior at the tmo for example janice ray
00:36:13 senior at the tmo for example janice ray or anyone else uh not to janice ray no but to when when we had caretakers meetings and and the whole caretakers turned up then yes we raised
00:36:24 caretakers turned up then yes we raised it
00:36:31 now if we can stay in this particular statement
00:36:34 statement given to the metropolitan police and go to page five and the first paragraph on that page
00:36:50 you say there and i quote things were a bit more relaxed before carl stokes was used
00:36:54 used but that was then when the pressure was put on the caretakers and they had more work to do we did tell them that we just couldn't cope with our own job the fras the meter readings the walkabouts and the inspections
00:37:06 walkabouts and the inspections we would only work seven hours a day we've been complaining to the tmo for the last four or five years that we haven't got enough time or enough people but they just don't listen
00:37:17 and so it would seem from that that you'd been raising concerns on that evidence
00:37:22 evidence since at least 2012 2013 is that fair and accurate
00:37:34 now if i can turn to a slightly different but related topic and that's reporting issues identified during inspections now can i ask you to turn to your first statement to the inquiry
00:37:45 statement to the inquiry which is at
00:37:48 eight seven tm01049875 forward slash two and paragraph ten
00:38:01 and you say there and i quote i would also report any repairs that were identified by myself or the residents to repairs direct and holding that in mind can we go to your second statement to the inquiry which is
00:38:13 second statement to the inquiry which is at
00:38:17 four forward tm00870-9444 two and paragraph
00:38:20 paragraph eight
00:38:23 and we see at the end of the first line you explain that if you identified a repair
00:38:27 repair you would raise a repair request by completing an electronic form on the pda and then towards the end of that paragraph you say you would receive quotes an email saying that the repair had been raised
00:38:38 had been raised and when it was due to be completed by close quotes would you receive confirmation of when a repair had been completed um no would you be required
00:38:50 um no would you be required to check if a repair was completed yes
00:38:56 who would check the repair had been carried out satisfactorily me
00:39:05 and how did you check that all the repairs you'd identified had been completed
00:39:09 completed and satisfactorily
00:39:12 if i wasn't happy with it and then then i would have phoned through and said that it's not been done properly it needs a recall but but prior to that going back a few years to that we had um
00:39:26 going back a few years to that we had um we had about seven or eight surveyors that used to do pre-inspections and post inspections on on repairs so but then when they got rid of them and only kept i think it
00:39:37 got rid of them and only kept i think it was only kept one or two surveyors that was then when we had to go around and post inspect can you remember when quotes they got rid of the inspect the surveyors right uh that was
00:39:51 the surveyors right uh that was i'll be honest with you i can't be 100 i think it may have been 20 14
00:39:58 20 14 15 12 i can't remember now in addition to raising repairs um for repairs direct which were identified during your ex during your inspection i should say
00:40:09 during your inspection i should say paragraph 28 of your first statement to the inquiry we don't need to go to it you say if i knew of any minor fire safety issues i would bring these to carl's attention first of all what sort of minor fire
00:40:21 first of all what sort of minor fire safety issues arose that you brought to his attention um if if there was anything i wasn't too unsure about and then if if he was around i would speak to him about it
00:40:31 about it if he wasn't around what would you do uh health and safety janice ray in other words or adrian yeah how would you um how would you report it to them would it be by email a call or
00:40:42 to them would it be by email a call or what
00:40:43 what it's usually it could be either if it was something that they needed to look at i probably would have took a picture and and sent them an email or a phone call how frequently was carl stokes around
00:40:56 how frequently was carl stokes around uh on the lancaster west he was around probably i don't know probably once once a month once every two months
00:41:09 can you give though the panel an idea of the sort of fire safety issues you thought necessary to raise either with adrian or janice or carl stokes let's give a float i'm really asking you
00:41:21 let's give a float i'm really asking you to give a flavor to the panels i'll be honest with you i can't think of anything at the moment that i did report um it did i don't know it probably would have been things like um if if we had um
00:41:34 if we had um we had garages under test and the nurse way walk
00:41:37 way walk um summoning garages were were empty um we used to get a lot of fly tipping down there wood clothing stuff like that um would it be
00:41:48 clothing stuff like that um would it be okay to lick if ocs were a bit busy and they couldn't move it straight away would it be okay to leave it there for a couple of days and then get it removed
00:41:57 do you recall where there was a formal procedure for escalating health and safety concerns to adrian bowman or janice ray not that i can remember no
00:42:09 was an informal process from the sound of it yeah yeah and it's what you've just described yeah
00:42:16 yeah uh and would those concern or would those issues be recorded in any document either by you or by health and safety um if if i if
00:42:27 um if if i if if i send them and buy an email then yes it would have been documented um if it was a phone call then no i probably just made a little note of it just just to remind myself that i did phone
00:42:38 phone adrian or janice and presumably you would know whether it had been done or not done
00:42:43 not done or not done satisfactorily you pick that up on one of your inspections you'll walk around yeah now can i turn to a separate topic which is monitoring of inspections and could i ask you to turn to your
00:42:54 and could i ask you to turn to your second statement of the inquiry which can be found at tm00870944 forward slash 3 and paragraph 16.
00:43:10 thank you you set out there the reporting line just refresh your memory of that and anyone watching but did your managers monitor
00:43:21 monitor your inspections in any way yeah i think they'll think they did yeah did each of the managers there identified inspect
00:43:32 identified inspect or monitor your inspections as far as i know yes
00:43:35 know yes yeah and how would they do that um they they'd probably ask me if if i had to do something or they'd probably go around on their own
00:43:46 they'd probably go around on their own and never walk around and and check to make sure and from 2015 onwards did they check your pda reports uh i'll be honest with you i'm not sure
00:43:59 uh i'll be honest with you i'm not sure in fact we don't even know where that used to go once it got sent off it disappeared off into the ether yeah you indicated earlier that sometimes they'd accompany you on uh inspections your walk-arounds how
00:44:11 uh inspections your walk-arounds how often would that happen um
00:44:19 probably once every couple of months they'd
00:44:22 they'd come around with us and what would would there be any outcome uh from these monitoring exercises would they say good job or you could do more on this or i wasn't happy about x or y i think it
00:44:33 i wasn't happy about x or y i think it was reflected in the one-to-ones
00:44:39 and again would you have one-to-ones with each of those managers during their respective times uh supervising you uh yes martin i think if i remember rightly only had ever had one
00:44:50 only had ever had one one-to-one with martin because that was when he had left tony i'm not too sure about
00:44:55 about siobhan and nichola it was probably only a couple and then that was when martin and and louise took over so yeah and how frequently would those one-to-ones happen would they be rare events or would there be a fixed weekly
00:45:06 events or would there be a fixed weekly no they would usually once a month
00:45:12 did fire safety feature prominently or at all in any of those one-to-ones um yes yeah and what types of fire safety concerns would be discussed uh just just mainly fire doors
00:45:27 uh just just mainly fire doors um door closers exit doors fire exit doors and in the garages of of barrendon uh hertzway and and teslaton and were they
00:45:39 teslaton and were they in reinforcing during these discussions the importance of you staying on top of these issues or was it
00:45:45 was it more of a monitoring exercises to check that you you picked up x y or z issues um that was it was important that we stayed on top of it now could i ask you to turn to tmo one
00:45:56 now could i ask you to turn to tmo one double zero four seven one four seven
00:46:05 now this is the front page of a performance review uh carried out on the 25th of november 2016 in relation to you mr stedman now at that stage november 2016 presumably louise
00:46:17 presumably louise nets and donny would have completed the form is that right uh yes now if we can turn to page six uh within this uh document and we'll see
00:46:29 uh within this uh document and we'll see against the work objective headed health and safety at the bottom left-hand corner
00:46:38 we see that in the achievement against objectives it says this paul has achieved 95.24 from august the second quarter but i'm not sure how accurate this is as no repairs have been recorded
00:46:50 no repairs have been recorded and sent through from august to date paul says that he's been sending them through
00:46:54 through so i'll check this with i.t paul needs to escalate things when he sees them currently
00:46:58 currently paul is raising the orders but is not chasing them if they are not getting completed
00:47:02 completed for example on a walkabout i did at grenfell tower there are numerous lights out as problems with some of the door closures
00:47:09 closures paul need to take more ownership for communal repairs and for removal of items from the communal areas on the estate now i suppose the first question is were you raising repairs from your inspections
00:47:20 inspections uh yes now it is suggested there that you had not reported a number of broken lights and problems with door closers did you accept that as being a fair and accurate criticism um
00:47:32 yes and no because i i was always taught by my first line manager keith stevenson that when when you come to putting lights out don't put
00:47:42 don't put if you've only got one or two lights that are out and it's not dark don't put them out because it costs too much money to spend to get that one or two lights repaired if you put seven eight nine ten lights out at a time it's cheaper
00:47:54 ten lights out at a time it's cheaper than than putting one or two at a time so
00:47:56 so she's she's not actually stating how many lights were out it could have been one could have been two where did you feel that she was making fair criticism you said yes or no where was she making fair criticism um probably where the lights were out i
00:48:10 um probably where the lights were out i should have put them in but then i'm going back to when i first started of of my old supervisor not putting one or two lights in at a time now that's lights and she also
00:48:22 now that's lights and she also identifies some issues regarding door closers um do you think she was making a fair criticism in that respect it depends where did she say what block she was on
00:48:33 she was on well we're both looking at the same thing and you were at the meeting with her so you have the advantage on all of us in the respect of the latter um
00:48:44 each i mean she could she could be fair i thought
00:48:51 did you accept that you were not chasing outstanding orders that you had raised um the thing is when when you start chasing orders
00:49:02 chasing orders you're on the phone three four five six seven times a week chasing one job and it does get a bit mind-blowing at the time
00:49:11 time and so taking from that it you seem to accept an element of fair criticism about it yeah yeah i'll accept that yeah
00:49:19 that yeah now if we can turn over the page on page seven
00:49:23 seven and we see a state inspections objective it's below the halfway mark on the left-hand side it's recorded in the achievements against objectives box on
00:49:34 achievements against objectives box on the right hand side this currently paul does not does not do estate inspections like the other esa's but from the end of november he will be accompanying nikki and i on the walkabout with the ra
00:49:46 walkabout with the ra the arabian residents association presumably yes this is so that paul can explain what jobs he has raised or raise any jobs that the ra bring to his attention
00:49:58 his attention the walkabout will be happening every three weeks on a thursday do you know what was meant by the comment that you do not do inspections like other esa's yeah i think that was the the the other
00:50:09 yeah i think that was the the the other esa's they they used to do three monthly walkabouts on on
00:50:13 on on specific blocks with with the ra and we never used to do that so much on on lanquest why was that i i don't know i mean from time to time
00:50:25 i i don't know i mean from time to time we
00:50:25 we used to have a walk around and and you'd probably get four or five residents or the ra members turn up and then another month you'd get no one turn up so basically you was on your own
00:50:37 so basically you was on your own uh presumably the nikki referred to there is that nichola bartholomew i'll take it here did you start accompanying her on the walk about with the residents association from the end of november 2016 onwards uh i
00:50:48 the end of november 2016 onwards uh i believe so yeah and did they take place at three weekly intervals
00:50:52 intervals um yeah they should have done yeah well did they rodden should have done um yeah now staying on this page we see at the bottom left hand corner handheld device and
00:51:03 left hand corner handheld device and reporting issues and reading on the right hand side it says this and i quote paul needs to utilize this more paul completes his weekly sheets but there is not enough reporting on it considering
00:51:15 not enough reporting on it considering that he is now covering the whole of the lancaster the whole of lancaster west i've explained this to paul and told him if he is having difficulty using the device
00:51:24 device then he can let me know and i can help him now
00:51:28 him now again did you accept that as fair criticism in frequent use of the pda um no because the the the app they had on the phone was actually rubbish and any of the caretakers would
00:51:39 rubbish and any of the caretakers would tell you the same thing so you weren't using it i was using it but it it
00:51:46 but it it it wasn't it it was a basic just a tick sheet yes no and what were the difficulties that you and the other esa's were experiencing with the pda uh well report reporting repairs one
00:51:57 uh well report reporting repairs one thing
00:51:58 thing can you and what was the problem can you give the panel the idea of yeah if you was reporting a repair you'd send it through um you wouldn't get a reply back so
00:52:09 um you wouldn't get a reply back so you're trying customer services to find out what's happened and and they've got nothing at their end you've got it on your pda you've got the number
00:52:16 number and you're giving them a number and they're they're on the other end of the phone and they're saying well there's there's no number there it's there's nothing i suppose what flows from that is this question is what training were you given on the use of the pdas
00:52:29 you given on the use of the pdas we was given a quite adequate training it was the system itself and did you make that point to your supervisors as forcibly as you've made
00:52:41 supervisors as forcibly as you've made it here
00:52:41 it here all the time so from 2015 onwards yeah and what was their response to uh these comments by you and other esa's um
00:52:51 um their response probably would have been oh we're sorting it we're sorting it was it ever sorted no we got a new app now now so your problem i think you're telling us was you were
00:53:03 i think you're telling us was you were logging repairs on your app yeah but they weren't turning up and they wasn't going up the other end yeah yeah yeah thank you
00:53:11 in that comment sheet it says do you know what was meant um it says that there is not enough reporting considering that he's now covering the whole of the lancaster west do you know what uh she meant by that
00:53:23 do you know what uh she meant by that um i i don't know i think what she's meaning is because i've got more block work because i've got double the blocks that i'm looking after now because there's no jobs going through she's probably wondering why well if
00:53:34 she's probably wondering why well if there's nothing to report there's nothing to report i'm presumably taking from the evidence you've already given you did not accept that point is a fair criticism is that correct yeah
00:53:45 correct yeah now if we go on to page nine within this document
00:53:52 and the line manager summary it's noted in the first paragraph in the final sentence that uh you were refusing to escalate communal repairs once you'd reported
00:54:03 communal repairs once you'd reported them
00:54:05 them do you accept that or did you accept that as a fair criticism um no because i was chasing them up so you weren't refusing to do no i wasn't escalating no i wasn't refusing
00:54:17 wasn't escalating no i wasn't refusing to chase them up i was chasing them up now if i can turn now to a more particular topic and that's flat entrance doors now we have um a spreadsheet of all the
00:54:29 now we have um a spreadsheet of all the repairs esa's logged between january 2016 and the 14th of june 2017 and for the record the references at cst
00:54:39 at cst quadruple zero double zero six seven now we don't need to go to it but take it from me that that spreadsheet shows that you raised no flat entrance door repairs in that
00:54:50 no flat entrance door repairs in that period
00:54:51 period would you accept that as accurate or not yeah
00:54:56 yeah why um because most of them would have been the
00:54:59 been the the the the paco ones that were built in in into the door itself so i wouldn't have had access to that and the other ones would have been the door closers which would have been situated on the inside of the flats
00:55:12 situated on the inside of the flats and so put differently uh you were not in a position where you were able to inspect otherwise were you doing what you could
00:55:23 otherwise were you doing what you could to inspect flat entrance doors from a visual appreciation from the outside yes and you'd be doing that routinely is that right yes now if we can go back to your first statement of the inquiry which is at
00:55:35 statement of the inquiry which is at tm0100
00:55:37 tm0100 49875 forward slash 3 and paragraph 13
00:55:46 and you say there i do not know which companies or individuals were responsible for replacing and inspecting the flat entrance doors across the tmo housing stock now were you nevertheless were you
00:55:57 now were you nevertheless were you nevertheless aware that the tmo replaced almost all the flat entrance doors on tenants flats at grenfell between 2011 and 23. yes i was away yeah do you recall any issues arising with
00:56:08 do you recall any issues arising with the self-closing devices once the flat entrance doors had been replaced yes what were those issues it was making the doors too heavy with the consequence of what um they
00:56:19 with the consequence of what um they were slamming beyond we when when them doors were first replaced on the grenfell tower um we we had a lot of people locking themselves out because they were taking their rubbish to the bin shoot
00:56:30 their rubbish to the bin shoot forgetting to take the key with them and the door was slamming shut behind them and that's what first brought the issue to your attention yes yeah and that would have been obvious to you whilst you're doing your rounds and inspections on the estate
00:56:42 inspections on the estate what did you do about that issue once you were aware uh well at that time there was myself robert uh sheamus was there the handyman
00:56:53 robert uh sheamus was there the handyman i'm not i think keith would have been retired by them but we we all reported it
00:56:56 it to managers health and safety that you you had a lot of old people that were living in grenfell tower and they some of them couldn't even open the doors physically because they were heavy now just picking up your reference
00:57:08 heavy now just picking up your reference there to shame it's that shame as dunley yes and um we can go to um his statement but i'll summarize it it can be found at met trouble zero one double nine five nine forward slash
00:57:19 double nine five nine forward slash six and the third paragraph on that page he said this in relation to new flat entrance doors and i quote just after the warranty ran out the doors started going wrong they had internal door closers that were
00:57:31 they had internal door closers that were pulling out from the door because they had tiny little screws holding them in and they had a massive fat spring inside and then he went on to say in the fourth paragraph final sentence and i quote you can't reattach it because of the
00:57:43 you can't reattach it because of the fixings so i would have no alternative but to remove it i think i did this to about ten doors did chamus ever discuss the matter in that detail with you or robert regan
00:57:55 that detail with you or robert regan he probably did but i don't recall it yes
00:58:02 can you remember if he probably did is it would he um just trying to did robert regan raise this issue with you the problems with the door closes on the
00:58:14 the problems with the door closes on the new flat engines probably not no
00:58:19 do you know whether sheamus took any action himself that you're aware of in relation to the issues he'd encountered with respect to self-closing doors
00:58:27 doors devices uh i think the only issues that it was
00:58:31 it was what you just read out where where they had been pulled away from the door and he couldn't reattach it the only thing he could do was take the whole thing out did you ever raise the problem specifically with any of your
00:58:42 specifically with any of your supervisors or indeed janitorial adrian bowman
00:58:45 bowman uh yes who prop probably both janice and and adrian and
00:58:52 and managers and can you remember first of all when you raised it with janice ray and adrian bowman i can't remember when it was now was it quite soon after the installation program had been completed in 2013. it was it slightly later it's it
00:59:06 it was it slightly later it's it it probably was yeah probably around about that time it could have been even just before they finished so somewhere in the period of 2012 2013.
00:59:17 so somewhere in the period of 2012 2013. and what did they do about it um
00:59:23 nothing i don't think
00:59:27 do you remember
00:59:30 what you raised and discussed with the supervisors with whom you identified this issue
00:59:39 um no because i can't remember who i raised it with i'm not sure if it was it was my supervisor at the time louise i i can't remember but you raised it with one of the supervisors
00:59:51 raised it with one of the supervisors yeah
00:59:52 yeah and did the supervisor do anything about it to the best of your recollection now can i turn to a separate topic which is inspection of the aov
01:00:04 is inspection of the aov the smoke control system and first of all i want to talk about the old aov system so the pre 2016 version had you been involved in maintaining the
01:00:16 had you been involved in maintaining the previous smoke control system that existed before the refurbishment um maintaining you mean fix fixing yes no did you carry out any
01:00:29 fix fixing yes no did you carry out any inspection of any panel um i remember i think it was back in 2013 me and victoria we used to do
01:00:40 victoria we used to do the fire alarm test but not for the aov that was just the the the brake glass call bits that we used to set off and and and reset it now if we
01:00:52 and and and reset it now if we go back to the estate staff quick reference handbook which can be found at
01:00:59 tm01028449 forward slash 85.
01:01:08 now we see in the second row on the far left hand side it says visual check on any detection extraction ventilation in common parts sorry i should have said this is from the daily routine checks
01:01:20 this is from the daily routine checks checklist
01:01:22 checklist now were you carrying out that visual check
01:01:26 check before the refurbishment of the aov system uh
01:01:30 system uh yes but that was just just a look that wasn't
01:01:33 wasn't it's a visual check yeah nothing more than that no and was that on a daily basis or a weekly basis uh that that would probably be on a weekly or a monthly basis
01:01:49 and did you do anything more beyond what is recommended there on that checklist um no
01:01:57 um no do you remember your visual check identifying any problem with the aov system before the refurbishment
01:02:08 um no because if no because i'm i'm not an engineer so i wouldn't know whether anything's broken and unless it's hanging off the wall then i wouldn't be reporting it that's the
01:02:20 i wouldn't be reporting it that's the thing yeah it's in the context you're carrying a visual chat yeah but carrying out that visual check is your evidence that you never had cause to raise any concern or repair
01:02:32 cause to raise any concern or repair arising
01:02:34 arising were you aware of the detail of the maintenance of the previous aov system and its requirements and who was doing it um i know there was a company that used
01:02:45 um i know there was a company that used to come round i'm not sure if it was every month or every three months and and test it
01:02:54 and so nothing more than the regularity no
01:02:58 do you remember any issues arising from those checks being raised with you thereafter no
01:03:07 now if i can ask you to go to lfb triple zero
01:03:10 zero three two one zero one
01:03:18 now this is a notice of deficiencies served by the london fire brigade on the 24th of march 2014 following an inspection at grenfell tower and if we go to page
01:03:30 tower and if we go to page 3 and we see at the bottom left hand box article 21
01:03:41 and then we see in the middle column second sentence on the third line it says this
01:03:46 says this staff on site did not appear familiar with actions to be taken in response to the fire safety system alarm and indicator panels situated in and around the reception area at the time of audit a detector in an
01:03:59 at the time of audit a detector in an adjacent block had been sent into pre-alarm mode as indicated on the aov activation alarm panel however no action had been taken to investigate
01:04:10 taken to investigate if we go back up to page three the action recommended by the lfb was to implement review training program to ensure employees receive adequate fire safety training my first question is this had you received
01:04:22 question is this had you received any training on the aov system before march 2014 um i think when when victoria and myself started doing the checks in 2013 i think
01:04:33 started doing the checks in 2013 i think we had checks i think we've done them training for the fire panel but that's that's all i remember were you familiar with the control panel
01:04:44 were you familiar with the control panel display itself um i wasn't over familiar with it no i'd all i was taught was out to set off the the brake glass box um and and to reset
01:04:55 the brake glass box um and and to reset that was it silence and reset that that was all
01:04:58 was all and beyond that you did not know how to remedy any errors identified on the display panel no on the control panel i should say no
01:05:07 were you provided with any further training or any refresher training after march 2014 in relation to the aov system
01:05:16 system not that i can recall now
01:05:26 and can i take it from the answers you've given that you have no prior experience of maintenance of aov systems at all no
01:05:35 can i now turn to look at the operation of the new aov system and for that purpose can i ask you to turn back to your first witness statement to this inquiry which can be found at
01:05:48 tm01049875 forward slash 4 and paragraph 22.
01:05:58 and you say in the first line this after the refurbishment we were shown how to test the smoke detection extraction aov system and you go on at paragraph 23 at the bottom of the page to say this
01:06:10 the bottom of the page to say this i can remember asking the question during training of whether it was necessary for me to check the smoke extract or system on every floor however i was told that it was not necessary as it would show on the ground floor if
01:06:22 as it would show on the ground floor if there were any issues with the system on any other floor i cannot remember who gave this training now but i can recall that myself seamus dunley and claire williams of the tma were present now looking first at the training
01:06:34 now looking first at the training element of that
01:06:38 i can take you to it but there's an email from david hughes of ryden dated the 25th of april 2016 inviting you and others to witness the operation of the aov on the 28th of april 2016. did you
01:06:51 on the 28th of april 2016. did you attend that demonstration yes
01:06:57 now i'm afraid there's another email and i will take you to this one
01:07:04 tmo10021350
01:07:10 and this is an email you'll see at the bottom of this page from claire williams and this is october 2016. addressed to you and sheamus you have been invited to a demonstration on the
01:07:21 been invited to a demonstration on the panels for the heating smoke system and roof mounted equipment so that you are aware what needs doing on a monthly regular basis
01:07:32 did you attend that demonstration in october 2016. um i'm i'm not sure i know i i attended once i'm not sure whether it's the first one you mentioned or this one so you
01:07:43 one you mentioned or this one so you don't know whether it was april yeah or i i know it wasn't it wasn't long after
01:07:49 after um greenfield tower got handed back to the tmo after the refurbishment so it was only it was probably that same week that we done that training and whatever month that was i i can't
01:08:00 and whatever month that was i i can't remember put differently did you attend one or two demonstrations i attended one
01:08:08 now did the demonstration you attended uh include an explanation of how the system worked yes but that went straight over my head that was my next question
01:08:19 that was my next question was it clear from the demonstration how to operate the system could you have operated it uh indeed the smoke vent system yes i i was able to test it yes were you given any hands-on training i.e
01:08:31 were you given any hands-on training i.e were you allowed to push the buttons yes
01:08:37 do you recall who told you during the training that you did not need to check smoke extraction and the system on every floor yes that was the guy that done the training i believe he worked for the company that fitted
01:08:48 company that fitted the the extraction system so it was a man but you don't remember his name yeah he he worked for i think it was jay jay s right or something that the company that fitted it he worked for them he was the actual
01:09:00 it he worked for them he was the actual guy that fitted the system in thank you now um the local fire station manager called andrew walton said in his statement to the inquiry and
01:09:11 said in his statement to the inquiry and it's paragraph 513 and can be found at lfb treble 0 203 654-4 we don't need to go to it we said in respect to the demonstration on the 28th of april 2016
01:09:23 on the 28th of april 2016 which he attended he said this i remember that during this conversation it was stated to us that the building's caretaker lived locally and if there was if there ever was a fire at the building
01:09:34 if there ever was a fire at the building they would know this and attend probably arriving at the same time as the crews would be able to give guidance or operate the system as necessary
01:09:43 necessary i think the caretaker was present during the demonstration i think he may have been the person who stayed at the panel during the demonstration to operate the system i think i suggested the caretaker's contact details
01:09:55 caretaker's contact details should be attached to the instructions to be placed with the panel now the demonstration you attended do you remember the station manager attending i i don't
01:10:06 the station manager attending i i don't remember him but i know there was a few people there there was myself seamus claire williams uh i think it was the two simons from ryden's
01:10:16 ryden's the guy that was showing us the training there was a few other people say it's possible yeah that he was there i think i'm right in recording from when he gave evidence but he had a liver puddling an accent does that prompt your memory
01:10:27 memory more than likely then yes so so it's more
01:10:31 more if he was the one there then it's would you accept that it appears that you attended the demonstration in april yeah do you recall it being said that you would attend the tower of a fire occurred and would
01:10:42 tower of a fire occurred and would assist the lfb with guidance after the operation of the aov system i had i i live about five minutes less than five minutes away from greenfield tower while uh
01:10:53 from greenfield tower while uh providing i wasn't out or whatever i probably would have attended if if there was a fire and they needed assistance yeah do you recall that being said that you
01:11:05 do you recall that being said that you would attend i'm putting it more um more than likely yes yes was that your expectation that you would attend in the event of a fire um i i probably would have done anyway
01:11:16 um i i probably would have done anyway yes
01:11:17 yes was that an instruction though from the tmo that you it's not an instruction no it wasn't an instruction it was just
01:11:24 asking now um could i ask us to turn to a separate document which is ryd trouble zero nine four three one five
01:11:35 trouble zero nine four three one five forward slash seven
01:11:43 now this is a an fra significant action plan prepared by carl stokes but upon which ryden had expressed comments now ryden's comments are those set out
01:11:53 set out on the far right hand side and if we see item 19d that's d for delta below halfway point we see it starts on the far left and
01:12:06 we see it starts on the far left and reading across it says in the middle column in respect to the aov this the keys to manually operate the individual aov override devices should be freely
01:12:18 aov override devices should be freely available for use by the fire service if needed and then we see in the next column it says cw to check claire williams then ryden have commented in the far right column
01:12:30 commented in the far right column will be fitted next to fire panel now is the fire panel the same as the aov control panel in your understanding i think so yes
01:12:41 in your understanding i think so yes yes would it be anything else
01:12:45 no i don't think it could be anything else workies provided next to the fire panel not next to the fire panel no they was in a separate room
01:12:58 and only in that separate room yes and where was that separate room in relation to the fire panel uh there was there was a bin shoot
01:13:09 uh there was there was a bin shoot bin shoot room outside the tower there was a key safe in there with a key fob that next to where the the file panel was on inside there was a door to go into the
01:13:21 inside there was a door to go into the community rooms uh you you open the door up and then i believe there was some sort of uh box on the wall that that everything was in there that they needed
01:13:32 was in there that they needed now the room in which that box was contained
01:13:35 contained was that room locked or not um i'll be honest with you i can't remember it probably was it there was probably a key attached to to the key fob to get into
01:13:46 the key fob to get into the first door and who would have held the keys to that door would have been you as esa no we would have had copies of them
01:13:53 of them in our office and then there would have been a copy for the locked door if it was locked there would have been a copy attached to the key fob to get through the first door and who
01:14:04 to get through the first door and who would have had the key fob for the first door
01:14:07 door uh that that would have been in in the key safe if if anyone had to come down over the weekend if there was a problem over the weekend and in the event of a fire you'd have had access to that
01:14:18 had access to that i i well i would have had yeah i would have had access to that yeah yeah and so put differently you wouldn't have needed to gone to the office to get the key into the room no
01:14:32 was there any other place where the uh key was kept not that enough no it was just the office and and the key safe box thank you sir i
01:14:43 and the key safe box thank you sir i don't know whether it's quarter past 11 whether this would be an appropriate time is it convenient to you it would be very convenient for me right um mr sudden we have a break during the morning and the afternoon
01:14:55 during the morning and the afternoon and it sounds as though this is a convenient time to take it so we'll do that
01:14:59 that we'll stop now we'll resume at half past 11 please
01:15:02 11 please and i have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room right yeah so would you like to go with the usher please she'll look after you
01:15:25 please she'll look after you right how fast eleven
01:30:53 yes would you ask mr stedman to come back in please
01:31:12 good all right mr sudden yeah ready to carry on yes good thank you very much yes mr canine thanks sir may we now turn on to the
01:31:19 on to the question of weekly chat you carried out on the aov system now if i could ask you to turn to met
01:31:25 met triple zero three nine eight one four forward slash seven which is the seventh page of your first statement of the police
01:31:36 you say at the end of the first line this i know that the automatic ventilation openers were working because i test them the friday before the fire i used to test them every friday morning in relation to the
01:31:48 every friday morning in relation to the fire alarm test i would contact a call center called tunstall to advise them that i was going to do a test which involved spraying can smoke onto one of the fire detectors i would let the system run for a minute
01:32:00 i would let the system run for a minute or two
01:32:00 or two i would then reset it any problems would show on the alarm panel i would call them again when the test was complete if the alarm did ever activate
01:32:08 activate it would go to tunstall who would contact the fire brigade now at pcs one which can be found at met trouble zero six five six seven three forward slash one you exhibit a document
01:32:21 forward slash one you exhibit a document entitled estate services monthly checks at grenfell tower there we go now if we can turn to page four
01:32:33 this details checks to be carried out on the aov
01:32:37 the aov and states that it has be done weekly
01:32:45 now did you carry out weekly inspections yes and did you follow the instructions set out
01:32:52 set out in this estate services monthly checks guide
01:32:56 guide you did so yes would you have a copy with you when you did it uh no because i knew how to to to reset the panel
01:33:04 the panel that that picture that you're showing me there i have no idea what that is i think i did ask at the time but i don't think anyone came back with an answer
01:33:14 an answer did your lack of knowledge of what that photograph indicated frustrate hinder or stop you from carrying out weekly tests no no because i i wasn't shown or told
01:33:25 no no because i i wasn't shown or told what that i think someone might have mentioned what it was for but i can't remember what it was for well just for the sake of completeness the relevant extracts of this guide are between pages four and six so
01:33:36 guide are between pages four and six so if i could ask us turn over the page page five
01:33:45 there we go what does that photograph show that's that's the fire panel that i used thank you and if we turn over the page
01:33:58 you'll see that the top photo grenfell tower smoke extract system what does that
01:34:01 that sign show uh that i think if i remember rightly i think that was showing you something about the location on on what floors something or other was
01:34:13 on on what floors something or other was i never used to look at that now beyond the information contained in the three pages we've just looked at were you provided with any other guidance as to how to check the aov system um we were shown
01:34:27 check the aov system um we were shown how to
01:34:28 how to test the aov system and reset it um the other stuff that you're showing me this this picture at the bottom was i think that was uh that's the water pump
01:34:39 that's the water pump it is i'm not asking you questions about that i'm just asking about the top one don't worry now can i ask us to turn to a separate document which is a tmo10033005
01:34:54 and that should be entitled grenfell tower smoke extract system and that appears to be
01:35:02 a cleaner version of the photograph we've just been looking at and it provides on the left hand side a basic how to use guide do you recognize that document uh yes
01:35:12 yes were you ever provided with a separate handheld copy um possibly but there there was that copy in
01:35:20 copy in with the the fire panel anyway so i i wouldn't have needed it and again just for the points of that did you use this basic how to use guide when you're carrying out your various checks
01:35:31 out your various checks uh yes was there any maintenance element to the checks that you carried out or was it simply inspection and carrying out the test you've identified in your statement to the police
01:35:42 statement to the police no just simply inspect and and check that it was working now when did the weekly checks of the smoke extract system begin uh i f
01:35:53 begin uh i f if i remember rightly i think it was even the the week that the building got handed back to the tmo well it's possible that it could have been the week after thank you did anyone else carry out the
01:36:04 thank you did anyone else carry out the weekly check um i believe sheamus stanley done it two or three times when i wasn't there on a friday
01:36:12 friday but apart from that i don't think anyone i would share must be the one who covered you when you're away yes
01:36:21 why did you run the system only for a couple of minutes why not shorter or longer
01:36:25 longer um i don't know i was told just run it for 30 seconds but i used to run it for one or two minutes and who gave you the 30 seconds guide uh it was probably the guy that was
01:36:36 uh it was probably the guy that was showing us how to to do it the guy that was doing the training the man from js right
01:36:43 right now this check confirmed that the detection was working uh but did you check whether the fans actually extracted the smoke no because that wouldn't have been my test
01:36:55 and was it something you were ever advised to do either by the man from js right or by anyone else
01:37:04 no now when you say and you said this earlier in evidence that it wasn't necessary to check on each floor because it would show on the ground floor
01:37:15 ground floor if there were any issues with the system does that
01:37:18 does that show up on the building management system control panel that we were looking at that would have showed up on the panel yeah and how would it display would it be
01:37:26 be i'm not sure because nothing there was never ever a problem when i had tested it so i wouldn't know how it showed up
01:37:33 when you carried out your inspections did you ever notice dampers being open or closed when this did not tally with what was displayed on the control panel
01:37:43 would you ever check other flaws to the one you were testing to see whether the control panel was correct and the dampers had in fact closed not not when i was doing it if i if the system was running then no
01:37:55 if i if the system was running then no but then i would go up and check on the way down but there was there was never a problem
01:38:00 problem falling from that did you always test the same floor or change the floor east with each one i was told to test you can test from the same system from from the same sensor so the same floor was used ground floor
01:38:11 so the same floor was used ground floor yeah in the lift lift lobby area did you ever test the override switches on each floor using the keys no why not because i was never told to and
01:38:23 why not because i was never told to and i never had the key for him anyway do you know who did no did you check on the environmental function of the system no did you note any occasion when the
01:38:35 no did you note any occasion when the system did not operate as intended no how did you record the outcome of your weekly checks of the smoke extraction system uh i i think the
01:38:48 uh i i think the the first app that we had on our phone that we were getting our jobs through i don't think there was anything on there that i could fill in to send away there was no no papers to fill in no book to sign or
01:39:00 no papers to fill in no book to sign or nothing
01:39:00 nothing so the only proof that i got that i checked it every friday was tunstall if they made a note of it and was it weekly as opposed to monthly
01:39:11 and was it weekly as opposed to monthly testing because that's what you've been told to do by js right yeah it it did start out i think they did mention first every two weeks but then someone mentioned no they wanted it done every week
01:39:23 week now mr stedman make a plea on behalf of the shorthand writer she has to capture both my question
01:39:29 question and your answer yeah and to do that would you mind waiting for the question to end
01:39:34 to end i know there's a horrible temptation to get the the answer out but uh if you can resist the temptation that'd be much appreciated now can i turn to th l quadruple zero treble zero two
01:39:49 quadruple zero treble zero two which is the tunstall alarm log for ground four and it was printed on the 24th of july 2017
01:39:58 and if we go to page 3
01:40:04 that is a log of the alarm calls received by tunstall and if we could go maybe 10 11 lines down from the top
01:40:15 maybe 10 11 lines down from the top that included smoke detectors on friday the 9th of june at 10 21 and friday the 2nd of june 2017 at 108 and for both these calls the
01:40:27 at 108 and for both these calls the reason recorded is test engineer warden doing the best you can now were those calls
01:40:35 calls made by you
01:40:39 no [Music]
01:40:42 [Music] they are fridays friday mornings both the 9th
01:40:45 the 9th and the 2nd of june it's possible yeah yeah friday mornings would have been me and you would have been on the ground floor then bearing in mind the answer you previously gave yeah
01:40:57 do you recall what happened when you sprayed smoke on those dates are you the 2nd
01:41:02 2nd and 9th of june
01:41:05 no as far as i know i sprayed the smoke it
01:41:09 it tripped it off i left it running and reset it [Applause] now can we turn to just three
01:41:21 now can we turn to just three particular issues that were encountered with the aov in 2017 and if i could turn first of all to lak quadruple zero zero one double four
01:41:33 quadruple zero zero one double four which hopefully is a job entry sheet uh for
01:41:37 for sorry a job sheet entry for the 13th of april
01:41:40 april 2017 by robert officer of allied protection and in that record he states that he visited grenfell on the 13th of april 2017 at nine o'clock
01:41:53 uh to 10 o'clock to carry out a quarterly fire service first of all were you familiar uh with that exercise i someone from allied
01:42:04 that exercise i someone from allied protection would turn up uh no did you have any would it flow from that therefore that you had no contact or communication with them um no not that i
01:42:16 communication with them um no not that i recall now so you're wholly unaware that quarterly
01:42:20 quarterly inspections were made by allied protection yeah now in the job sheet itself in the comments section so you see it's towards the right hand side of that sheet mr officer refers to being unable
01:42:32 sheet mr officer refers to being unable to test the aov system because it required the caretaker paul to be on site to switch the extractors on
01:42:39 on and to switch off the line to tunstall recalled to as the record referred to there as the alarm center and it goes on to say this and i quote can't test aov until next week tuesday as the aov is link the main
01:42:51 tuesday as the aov is link the main boiler room and switches them off when aov are activated requires the caretaker pool to be on site to switch them extractors on which controls boiler rooms buildings recently had a refurb
01:43:03 rooms buildings recently had a refurb also aov is linked to alarm center and requires to be switched offline by the caretaker make future appointment with paul the caretaker or sheamus the maintenance guy for this site
01:43:15 for this site can we take it therefore the mr officer did not liaise with you about a further appointment on the following tuesday um i'll be honest with you i can't recall it no
01:43:28 can we turn on to a second particular instant
01:43:31 instant involving a barry mcauliffe on the 15th of may 2017 the reference for the job sheet entry is lak
01:43:39 lak quadruple zero zero five double two forward slash two
01:43:50 now on the 15th of may 2017 barry mcauliffe
01:43:54 mcauliffe also from allied protection attended the tower and in his statement which is on the sheet
01:43:58 the sheet on screen now and paragraph eight in the second
01:44:02 second line he says he was called out for a fire alarm service but on arrival he found it was an aov system he says if we go on to paragraph 21
01:44:17 there we go the top of this page that you spoke to him about the weekly testing of the aov now my first question is do you recall this visit from mr mcauliffe
01:44:28 visit from mr mcauliffe um yes and what do you recall of it i'll be honest with you i'm not sure i think he was just there to test the system i'm not sure so you remember the fact of it
01:44:39 not sure so you remember the fact of it but nothing more i i think that the previous week when someone turned up and he couldn't get hold of me i think i'd if i remember rightly i think i was off that day so they had to rebook it for the
01:44:50 so they had to rebook it for the following week now mr mcauliffe said that he tested the system on the 15th of may
01:44:55 may and he asked you to reset the aov panel after each activation but you had refused why had you refused i don't recall that no
01:45:06 so if i could just take you to um the statement mr mcauliffe made to a colleague at allied protection which is on the 26th of june 2017 so after the fire and some six weeks or so after his visit
01:45:18 and some six weeks or so after his visit is lak
01:45:20 is lak quadruple zero double zero four two
01:45:27 and it's six paragraphs from the bottom of the page
01:45:37 you see i went to the top residential floor
01:45:41 i then commenced the test after asking paul the caretaker to reset the panel after each activation which he refused now looking at that does that
01:45:51 does that jog your memory as to what happened during mr mcauliffe's visit no because i don't know why i refuse to reset the panel would you no i wouldn't refuse if he's
01:46:02 would you no i wouldn't refuse if he's there to test the system and he wants a hand for me to reset it so he can set it off again and no i won't refuse to reset it looking at matters more broadly did you provide any assistance or
01:46:13 did you provide any assistance or advice to him when he attended the tower on the 15th of may 2017 uh poss possibly yeah
01:46:24 yeah possibly but i don't refuse i don't remember refusing to reset the panel
01:46:34 do you remember whether mr mcauliffe tested the system on all floors or just the ground floor or a sample of floors i'd i'll be honest with you i don't know because we don't walk about them when when they do their tests we
01:46:45 when they do their tests we don't have enough time to walk about them you've got 20 20 20 floors 20 odd floors in in grenfell tower
01:46:53 tower are you able to assist the panel on any information regarding the operation of the environmental aov function at the end of mr corliss visit my sorry can you repeat the first of
01:47:04 my sorry can you repeat the first of course do you know what the state of the environmental aov function was when this mcqualified as far as i know it was still working it was working yeah
01:47:15 now can we go to lak
01:47:20 quadruple zero double zero double one
01:47:29 now this is a copy of an inspection servicing certificate produced by mr mcauliffe on the 15th of may 2017 and we can see that it lists the checks he carried out
01:47:40 he carried out on the top half of the page under job detailed job details and heading description of works carried out he summarized the workers aov tested all okay now to the best of
01:47:51 aov tested all okay now to the best of your knowledge was this the last time the aov system was tested apart from by you before the fire
01:47:59 uh it's possible yeah yeah now the third and final instance i'd like or rather the third one i'd like to discuss with you is one involving magnus george on the 25th of may 2017.
01:48:11 may 2017. now magnus george was also from allied protection and he attended the tower on the 25th
01:48:16 the 25th of may now in a statement made to a colleague at allied protection on the 26th of june 2017 he explained that the purpose of the visit was to investigate a coil of cable
01:48:27 visit was to investigate a coil of cable in the ceiling area near the top floor boiler room and then he went on to say that the tmo caretaker showed him where this cable was and he stated that it was a fire alarm cable of around three meters length
01:48:39 cable of around three meters length with no device attached which terminated into the automatic smoke vent extract system box do you recall that visit yes what do you remember of it
01:48:51 yes what do you remember of it um i remember we we we went up to the the roof where the water tanks were and there was
01:48:59 there was i don't know who saw the wire first but there was a coil of wire just rolled up just hanging there wasn't attached to anything um i'd i took him up to the the roof and
01:49:10 um i'd i took him up to the the roof and gave him access to the roof and and i'm gonna be honest with you i can't recall what happened after that i'm not sure if it was an old cable wire or someone had run a cable wire that didn't need to run a
01:49:21 cable wire that didn't need to run a cable wise i'm i'm not sure what happened to that did you express any view as to what the the purpose of the cable was or was it mr george reached the conclusion that it was to do with the fire alarm cable
01:49:32 was to do with the fire alarm cable um i'll be honest with you i can't remember what what was done
01:49:38 can you remember whether any action was taken as a result of identifying this cable um i don't recall it no but but there probably was yeah
01:49:49 probably was yeah but you don't know what it was no no can you remember whether mr george tested or checked any element of the aov system when he visited uh i'll be honest with you i
01:50:02 uh i'll be honest with you i can't recall it possible or i don't know now the final incident involved mr david hughes on the 1st of june 2017. now mr hughes was the ryden site manager
01:50:15 now mr hughes was the ryden site manager and we've heard evidence from him about a defects inspection at the tower on the 1st of june 2017. mr hughes said that during a walk around he noticed that the environmental function the smoke extract system was
01:50:27 function the smoke extract system was not working mr hughes says he checked the main control panel and this did not appear to show any vents open now first of all were you aware that the environmental function of the system was not working
01:50:39 system was not working no no
01:50:43 were you part of this walk around to the best of your knowledge on the 1st of june 2017. um i don't think i was
01:50:51 were you usually involved in walk-arounds when the ryden site manager attended site certainly in 2017. not usually not unless they they needed us there or we needed to be there
01:51:05 had there been any indication before the 1st of june 2017 that the environmental function was not working no
01:51:16 after the visit on the 1st of june 2017 do you remember anyone contacting you about the functionality of the environmental function of the ov system not that i can recall now
01:51:30 thank you now i'm now turning onto a separate topic which is the inspection of lifts now if we can go to tm00870944
01:51:49 of lifts now if we can go to tm00870944 and this is your second statement to this inquiry and you detail at paragraph four to six your process for the weekly and monthly checks that you carried out on the lifts
01:52:00 checks that you carried out on the lifts at grenfell tower now if i could ask you to turn over the page to paragraph six
01:52:09 you say this and i quote i wish to clarify that in my earlier statement where i said that i would check the lfb drop key was working i was not referring to the drop key that would be used by
01:52:20 to the drop key that would be used by the lfb
01:52:20 the lfb to take control of the lift i would not touch the lfb drop key for the lift and i suspect this was checked by the lfb during regular visit what i was referring to was the lfb drop
01:52:33 what i was referring to was the lfb drop key for the main door to the tower
01:52:37 now was there a tmo lift drop key which was kept
01:52:41 was kept in the tower and not that i can remember no you never had reason to use one no i well we all caretakers have got their
01:52:53 well we all caretakers have got their own lift drop keys
01:52:57 you say that you suspect that the lift drop key would be checked by the lfb on their regular visits
01:53:05 yeah yeah yeah now did you yourself ever test the lifts fire control switch no we didn't touch that would you know nonetheless how to
01:53:16 would you know nonetheless how to operate it i do now because we've done training on it about two weeks ago so yes i'll do now but you wouldn't i didn't at the time no if you just sorry wait for the question sure and then answer but you didn't know
01:53:27 sure and then answer but you didn't know about it before the fire
01:53:31 do you recall the lfb carrying out any tests the fire control switch on the left
01:53:36 left uh no again when when they used to turn up and do their tests we we was never around
01:53:41 around with them we never went around with them while they done their tests we just left them
01:53:47 them to get on to do what they had to do do you have any memory of the tmo lifts maintenance contractors peters or pders testing the fire control switch at any time
01:53:58 at any time no because again we we never used to walk around with them or rang around with them when they was doing their tests
01:54:04 tests would you be notified as to when they'd be attending the tower for example uh not usually no they used to just turn up and if you saw them you knew you knew they was there
01:54:17 now can i go back to your first statement to the inquiry which is at
01:54:23 tm01049875 forward slash 4
01:54:29 and paragraph 20
01:54:32 and in the third line of that paragraph you say this i recall that there was a gentleman called robin khan who would check the lifts were working for the tma
01:54:43 for the tma are you referring there to robin kallan who was the tmos sorry yes yes and just to confirm he was the timo senior lift engineer is that right
01:54:51 right yes how often would he check the lifts at grenfell um i believe robin used to come down at least once a week once a month
01:55:03 at least once a week once a month as as far as i know yeah do you know whether he would carry out tests of the lyft's fire control switch
01:55:10 um i think so yeah on what basis do you say that um but because he did robin was quite thorough when he came down and checked the lift
01:55:21 when he came down and checked the lift so
01:55:21 so yeah he he probably would have checked after robin left the tmo in 2012 who would carry out those type of checks uh
01:55:29 uh as far as i know the the lift engine is
01:55:34 the maintenance contractors yeah
01:55:40 now can i ask us to turn to a separate document which can be found at tmo
01:55:47 tm0084930
01:55:57 and this is entitled the kensington chelsea tmo lift safety breakdown and trap in policy and procedure were you familiar with that policy and procedure uh
01:56:09 procedure uh yes was that a result of training or application or both uh probably training but what you got to understand was when when they changed
01:56:20 was when when they changed the two lifts at grenfell tower
01:56:25 they realized that it was going to take four people to do a lift trapping rather than free and there was only ever three caretakers at lancaster west and when you say trapping just for the avoidance of dad
01:56:36 just for the avoidance of dad if if someone got stuck in the lift we used to do lift track when i first started there we used to do lift trappings
01:56:43 trappings um the old lifts that they had in there used to take three of us to get someone out the lift one on the floor to get them out two up in the lift motor room
01:56:54 in the lift motor room but when they changed the lifts uh robin found out that the the the new lifts that they had fitted in were too heavy and it was going to take four caretakers but on lanquest there was
01:57:05 caretakers but on lanquest there was only ever three caretakers so that was when they stopped everyone doing lift trappings now if we can stay in this document but go to page 30 and appendix e
01:57:20 which is entitled checks and at paragraph one it deals with checks by staff caretakers which sets out the checks that estate staff were required to do
01:57:31 staff were required to do i'll just let you briefly familiarize yourself with those 11 items
01:58:08 were you familiar with those checks uh yes
01:58:11 yes as a result of training or application in practice um probably training yeah would you carry out all of these checks during the course of your health and safety
01:58:22 safety inspections um
01:58:26 up until when we stopped doing lift trappings i wouldn't use the the lift key pro probably everything or most of
01:58:38 pro probably everything or most of everything else will lift my calories you save most yeah what wouldn't you do uh and why
01:58:54 uh well i won't be opening it up until when they change the lifts i won't be opening
01:58:59 opening the doors with the release key and why not
01:59:03 not uh because they stopped us doing lift wrappings and and you don't do it on your own because it very often safely okay what other items wouldn't you do
01:59:30 i'll probably do virtually everything else on there okay now you referred an earlier answer to training first of all when did you provide training on the checks that were required to be carried out in relation
01:59:42 required to be carried out in relation to the lift sorry when did you receive training um probably when i first started that would have been back in 2002. anything else thereafter i think robin
01:59:53 anything else thereafter i think robin used to do like a refresher course every now and again probably once or twice a a year up until we stopped us and did you receive any further training once the new lifts had been installed
02:00:06 once the new lifts had been installed um that yes that was when he found out that the lifts were too heavy for three people
02:00:14 and in the years immediately before the fire did you receive any further lift check specific training yeah we i think robin used to set it up i'm not sure if it was once a year or or twice a year but we yeah we used to go
02:00:26 year but we yeah we used to go well robin left in 2012 yeah in the five years before the fight under five years going up then no nothing no
02:00:40 nothing no um how did you record the outcome of each of these checks on your pda
02:00:47 um i think with with the the the old system i think it was just a tick sheet just yes no yes no and a little box if you had anything to fill in just to write in underneath
02:00:59 to write in underneath now looking at paragraph one of this appendix e and looking at the second line it says reports of damage etc are to be reported immediately to the tmo senior lift engineer did you
02:01:10 to the tmo senior lift engineer did you report
02:01:11 report uh incidents of damage to the senior lift engineer uh yes we used to ring it through and after robin kallan left in 2012 to whom did you report instance of
02:01:23 to whom did you report instance of damage
02:01:24 damage um i think it was a girl called maria ayers that still works for us as is that he's head or um no
02:01:35 as is that he's head or um no i've i i can't remember any speller's surname but it's maria airs with with an s i think
02:01:44 and you remember damage being rectified swiftly or were there ever amazing making good yeah well we used to report it through to maria and then she had getting in touch with the the
02:01:55 with the the lift contractor and they used to come out probably following day and and do what they got to do
02:02:03 to do now in your first statement to the police we don't need to go to it but the reference is m e t treble zero three nine eight one four forward slash one and it's four
02:02:14 one four forward slash one and it's four lines from the bottom of the second paragraph
02:02:17 paragraph you state that the lifts were constantly breaking down what sort of problems before the fire were experienced in relation to the lifts
02:02:25 lifts um they
02:02:29 um they they was constantly breaking down one one day you could go in one day and one lift to be broken uh that would be up and running probably three or four days later and another lift will be broken we
02:02:42 and another lift will be broken we overtold the reason for this constant run of breakdowns no no was there ever a problem with the fire control switch in so far as you're aware i i don't know i wouldn't know
02:02:55 now i'm going to turn to a separate topic which is fire risk assessments and the lfb
02:03:00 the lfb deficiency notice now first of all i'd like to discuss with you the extent of your involvement with carl stokes now if we turn to cst quadruple zero three one eight one forward slash three
02:03:21 and this is carl stokes fra for grenfell dated the 29th of december 2010 and on page 3 under the heading person consulted during the assessment it's a third heading down
02:03:34 we see your name and it states you were consulted and that's repeated in the fras of november 2012 and october 2014.
02:03:45 and october 2014. were you consulted as part of the fra preparation process um not i recall no
02:03:54 you never consulted by carl stokes no from time to time when he was around he used to pop into our office and and mention stuff but a lot of mo well all of our fras used to get sent
02:04:07 mo well all of our fras used to get sent through from from janice or adrian through to our line manager who then passed it on to us but
02:04:15 to us but do you remember whether any of your colleagues i'm thinking of sheamus or rob were they ever consulted by carl stokes for the purposes of preparing his fra um not that i can recall now
02:04:27 um not that i can recall now do you recall ever joining carl stokes on
02:04:30 on one of his visits around grenfell tower when he was preparing the fra not that i can recall no um if we could go to
02:04:42 um if we could go to cst quadruple zero throm three one six five forward slash four
02:04:53 six five forward slash four and this is the fra action plan of the 29th of december 2010 and if we go to as we've got here page 4
02:05:02 page 4 and item 20. it says in the actions to be taken column can it be confirmed that the caretaker is carrying out the
02:05:13 that the caretaker is carrying out the daily checks as per the caretaker's checklist
02:05:16 checklist and if we go over the page identical confirmation is sought for monthly checks at items 23 b and 23 e
02:05:27 b and 23 e and the second and bottom rows respectively now we don't need to go to them but he raised the same or similar actions in his fra action plans in november 2012 october 2014
02:05:38 in november 2012 october 2014 april and june 2016.
02:05:42 at any stage were you asked by carl stokes
02:05:46 stokes whether you are carrying out the required checks or not
02:05:53 possibly but at them in them dates 2009 and 2008
02:06:00 and 2008 no i didn't yeah no i wasn't asking about 08 it was this is an action plan from december 2010 yeah
02:06:07 2010 yeah his subsequent he's he asked for the same confirmation that the caretakers are
02:06:11 are carrying out daily checks as per the caretakers checklist and he says exactly seeks the same confirmation both in 2010 2012 2014 and april and june 2016.
02:06:25 2012 2014 and april and june 2016. now did he ever ask you directly whether you're carrying out the caretakers
02:06:32 possibly yeah yeah well earlier on you said you weren't consulted by him for the purposes of completing the fra
02:06:44 for the purposes of completing the fra so bearing in mind that answer
02:06:49 could i ask you again whether carl stokes asked you directly whether you carried out the required daily weekly and monthly checks possibly yeah
02:07:00 you say possibly is that inclining to likely uh yes
02:07:08 were you provided with this or any other action plan arising out of an fra
02:07:18 yes and were you given the complete document or just extracts that concerned you just extracts that concerned me and who provided you with the extracts from the action plan
02:07:29 from the action plan my line manager
02:07:35 and would the line manager ask you for confirmation that you are carrying out the checks as required on a daily weekly and monthly basis yes
02:07:48 can you remember any further action being taken once you've provided that confirmation um no as far as i know all just got fed into the system and and put down as done
02:08:06 no moving on from this looking at the general process um you say that you and you've just confirmed that you'd receive fras or certainly the action
02:08:17 receive fras or certainly the action plans would you receive the fras themselves after they've been completed um no
02:08:27 how would you be told what actions carl stokes required to be done following an fra i i wouldn't we we used to just get the the fras through and told that it had to be done
02:08:38 be done um we we used to do it provide proof that it had been done and then that was it that was we just wait for the next lot what sort of fra actions would you be asked to carry out
02:08:49 asked to carry out uh oh god it could be anything if there was a door not closing properly um if if there was a build up of rubbish outside someone's main entrance flat door or
02:09:04 we're just following on from that could i ask you to send to tmo1001593 which is an email from janice ray to you
02:09:15 on the 18th of january 2017 and it's about an fra action regarding a damaged
02:09:24 damaged front entrance door flat 24 at grenfell the letterbox was missing we see the janitor's email was sent at 2 17 if we scroll up to 256 we see an
02:09:38 2 17 if we scroll up to 256 we see an email from you saying all done
02:09:43 had you carried out an inspection of that flat entrance door to allow you to answer all done uh slightly more than half an hour later
02:09:54 uh slightly more than half an hour later yeah
02:09:55 yeah you went straight out inspected straight out to flat 24 yeah now the action plan on which this which prompted janice ray's uh email was dated the 20th of june 2016
02:10:08 uh email was dated the 20th of june 2016 and the action isn't recorded as completed until some six months later are you able to explain the delay between service of the action plan and completion of the action required no
02:10:19 and completion of the action required no no now can i turn to the lfb deficiency notice of the 17th of november 2016 served in relation to grenfell
02:10:29 grenfell i want to ask you about your involvement in rectifying issues identified by the lfb's audit of the taran october 2016.
02:10:37 2016. now if we could go to the or a version of the notice deficiencies which is a tmo double zero eight seven three eight three four
02:10:55 now the manuscript annotation were made was made by janice ray in february 2017.
02:11:06 if i can ask us to go to i think it's page three
02:11:12 and then go on to page four sorry
02:11:17 sorry go back to sorry it's my fault go back to page two and that's page one
02:11:29 do you remember that letter being shown to you by janice ray at any stage no do you recall ever being contacted by janice ray uh to address
02:11:41 contacted by janice ray uh to address any matters identified by the lfb and the notice of deficiencies um not that i recall no would she routinely ask you about
02:11:52 would she routinely ask you about matters that had been identified in notices of deficiencies served by the lfb
02:11:59 um she usually would if it was something that i would have been checking but other than that no now if we go to page six
02:12:15 and we see article 15 so we see in the middle column fourth line down
02:12:25 line down it says it was found
02:12:29 the fire action notes were not displayed in your common parts
02:12:36 actually if we can get sorry i've taken you to the wrong document if we can go to tm00861389
02:12:52 if we go now to page six
02:12:57 now following on from that janice ray emailed you on the 15th of december 2016.
02:13:06 which is the top email
02:13:11 saying shame as dundley has put these fire action notices up on each lobby at grenfell tower now can you include these on your regular inspections and advise of any are removed or defaced
02:13:24 removed or defaced now bearing in mind the lfb's notice deficiencies from 15th to december 2016 onwards did you include fire action notices as part of your regular inspections
02:13:35 regular inspections uh possibly yeah now you say possibly they don't appear in the esa checklists so how did you ensure that you had inspected that fire action notices were up on each
02:13:46 that fire action notices were up on each lobby uh i would have done a visual check and if there was any missing then i would have contacted janice ray um or shameless because shamers probably would have had spare ones that you could
02:13:57 would have had spare ones that you could have put up was there a facility on the pda to allow you to record whether or not no just complete the question was there a facility on the pda which allowed you to record whether a fire
02:14:09 allowed you to record whether a fire action notice was missing no
02:14:16 before the fire and after december 2016 do you recall whether any notices had been removed or defaced at grenfell
02:14:28 [Music] i hadn't noticed no now can i turn to a separate matter which is the emergency plan and vulnerable residents and really your responsibilities and
02:14:39 and really your responsibilities and role in the event of an emergency and particularly in relation to vulnerable residents now if we can go to tm01028449
02:14:51 now if we can go to tm01028449 forward slash 46.
02:15:03 we see here in the first paragraph the emergency planning section of the estate staff
02:15:08 staff quick reference handbook of june 2013 it says this kctmo has a documented emergency plan which will be invoked when the situation requires it esas are an important link in the
02:15:20 esas are an important link in the emergency planning process due to their local knowledge you may be called out at any time during and for resident esa esa's outside of working hours to deal with an emergency situation
02:15:32 with an emergency situation and then it goes on to set up various responsibilities for esa's discharge in the event of emergency were you aware of your role and responsibilities in the event of an emergency
02:15:44 event of an emergency yes what did you understand your responsibilities and role to be um if if they needed if they if there was an emergency after
02:15:55 if they if there was an emergency after hours and then we we was there to assist anything more definitive than there to assist
02:16:02 assist um or detailed well no because it's it depends where where the emergency was and and how many caretakers were there and had you received any training in relation to your role and
02:16:13 relation to your role and responsibilities as part of the emergency plan no never never
02:16:22 now could we go to carl stokes's fra of the 20th of june 2016 for grenfell and it's cst quadruple zero three one
02:16:33 and it's cst quadruple zero three one four five forward slash five
02:16:42 and if we can look at the last box on that page
02:16:47 that page and third line from the bottom he says this the fire service or tmo employees will arrange for a general evacuation of the whole building at any time
02:16:58 the whole building at any time if this is appropriate to do so now that sentence is recorded in every fra he wrote for the tower between 2010 and 2016. the first question is this
02:17:11 and 2016. the first question is this were you ever told that you might need to arrange or play a part in the arrangement of an evacuation of grenfell tower in the event of a fire
02:17:23 um no were you ever told that the lifts at grenfell tower were firefighter evacuation lifts
02:17:34 evacuation lifts no were you ever told that you might be required to use the lifts in the event of an emergency at the tower no
02:17:44 did you receive any training on operation of the lifts and how they were to be used in the event of an emergency no
02:17:53 now if we can return to the estate staff quick reference handbook which can be found at tmo10028449 forward slash 47
02:18:16 and the third paragraph down says that esa's are
02:18:20 esa's are quotes sorry are required to advise of any
02:18:24 any known vulnerable less able-bodied residents that may come to your attention
02:18:28 attention as needing assistance pass this information onto the csc now csc is customer service centre i think yeah were you aware of that requirement
02:18:41 yeah were you aware of that requirement um possibly yeah yeah did you understand that you're required to pass on your knowledge of any vulnerable or disabled resident only
02:18:52 any vulnerable or disabled resident only when an emergency had arisen or generally whenever you identified such a resident during the course of your inspections um yes and we did we passed it on to the office
02:19:03 office no my question is more specific did you understand that you were required to pass on your knowledge of a vulnerable disabled resident in an emergency
02:19:15 emergency or when you came across a disabled or vulnerable person during the course of your
02:19:20 your inspections yes
02:19:25 which one we both we passed it on if if there was an emergency and we knew if it was if it was after office hours and
02:19:33 and and and we knew and there was an emergency and we knew there was someone that was disabled vulnerable and then yes we would pass on to whoever was there to fire brigade the ambulance
02:19:44 ambulance and during what about if you came across someone who was obviously had mobility difficulties when you were doing your inspection of the tower would you would you tell the office about that um did the office
02:19:55 did the office probably if they lived on our stand then the office probably would have known before me
02:19:59 before me well they might have done that yeah in case they didn't would you tell the office
02:20:03 office yeah i'd still pass it on to the office yeah yeah yeah thank you now did you receive any training on the identifying and reporting uh vulnerable disabled residents
02:20:13 residents say for example during the course of your inspections no
02:20:18 did you ever have course to report the location or problems with a vulnerable disabled resident for example to a housing officer or to the office um the the only time the only one time i
02:20:30 um the the only time the only one time i do remember reporting it and and me and sheamus reported it was when grenfell tower was handed back to us we had a resident that moved into one of the flats that was in the wheelchair
02:20:41 the flats that was in the wheelchair um her wheelchair was too big to get through the doorway so she had to plug it in outside the doorway and we we reported that back to there to the housing officers
02:20:52 there to the housing officers we reported it back to health and safety
02:20:56 and that was the one in one that was the only one i can think of yeah finally can i ask you to go to a tmo document entitled supporting residence
02:21:07 document entitled supporting residence procedure dated april 2016 which can be found at tm0086013
02:21:21 have you seen that before
02:21:25 now if notwithstanding that answer if we look at paragraph 1.1 it says sets out the key aim of the
02:21:36 it says sets out the key aim of the procedure
02:21:37 procedure to ensure that residents get access to any additional support they need to live their lives 1.2 prime intention is to ensure that we have the information we need to be able to support our residents
02:21:48 to support our residents if we look at 2.1 all members of staff have a duty to consider whether a resident
02:21:54 resident may have support needs
02:21:58 you see estate service officers are identified the third bullet point and then if we go on to paragraph 2.2 they set out various indicators that a
02:22:10 they set out various indicators that a resident might require support even if you hadn't seen this document before
02:22:17 before were you aware first of all of the expectation on you as an employee of the tmo
02:22:23 tmo to consider whether a resident may have support needs yeah and looking at paragraph 2.2 and the indicators were those indicators
02:22:35 and the indicators were those indicators which as a matter of practice you are aware of and we can go on to page two to see any further ones
02:22:54 uh yeah did you receive any training on how to identify vulnerable residents no
02:23:09 thank you now mr stedman that concludes the questions i was intending to ask you sir might i have
02:23:17 have 10 minutes to see whether there's anything i've missed off or whether any further questions arise yeah well mr steven when council gets to the end of the questions he thinks he needs to ask you we always have a break because
02:23:28 you we always have a break because he needs time to check that he hasn't overlooked anything and there may be questions from other people who aren't in the room which they'd like us to put to you so we are going to break now until 25 to 12
02:23:40 going to break now until 25 to 12 at 25 to 1 i'm sorry and then when you come back we'll see if there are any more questions for you sure all right and while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence
02:23:51 about your evidence and then if you go with the usher she'll look after you thank you
02:24:06 right again say 25 to 1 if you need more time you can let us know in the usual way
02:24:12 thanks
02:37:13 yes would you ask mr stedman to come back in please
02:37:20 [Music]
02:37:31 right mr said yeah and we'll see if there are any more questions for you yes mr clear so just a very few mr stedman i can assure you um were you ever required to post fire safety leaflets to residence homes at
02:37:42 safety leaflets to residence homes at grenfell
02:37:44 grenfell uh i think i was but i'm not sure how long ago that was i think i do recall doing it how frequently uh it's it was not frequently
02:37:55 uh it's it was not frequently probably all the time i've been is probably only once or twice that i've done it
02:37:58 done it can you remember whether the leaflets were um produced by the tmo or they lfb produced leaflets um i can't recall could i ask you briefly to look at cst
02:38:10 look at cst treble zero one seven two seven two
02:38:20 does that look familiar is one of the letters you may have posted through letterboxes um no it doesn't look familiar
02:38:30 mr stedman thank you um the final thing for me to say i have no further questions
02:38:35 questions um but i must say thank you very much for attending to the inquiry today it's very much appreciated mr stedman is right that i should thank you on behalf of
02:38:44 of all three members of the panel for your coming to give your evidence it's been helpful to hear what you have to say and we're very grateful to you for coming along and giving us your time thank you very much and now you're free
02:38:55 thank you very much and now you're free to go thank you good thank you
02:39:05 well now mr kenya where do we go next the next witness is mr robert regan i would ask that um we start his evidence at two o'clock yes um i am
02:39:17 um i am completely confident that his evidence will be completed this afternoon uh the basis of that confidence is that neither myself nor mr millet is examining him and miss jones is and so on that um i
02:39:29 and miss jones is and so on that um i think cast iron assurance um i would invite you to sit at two right well thank you well there'll have to be a break anyway at this stage so that we can prepare the problem for the next witness and the next council
02:39:40 and the next council and it sounds to me as though you have every reason to be confident about the afternoon's progress so on that basis we'll break now and resume
02:39:47 resume uh with the next witness at two o'clock then thanks thank you very much
02:40:11 you