TMO Estate Services Assistant Robert Regan's testimony on his responsibilities, training deficiencies, fire safety knowledge, and interactions with disabled residents at Grenfell Tower.
00:00:14 so
00:00:18 yes ms jones you're going to call the next witness yes i am thank you chairman it's going to be mr robert regan please good thank you
00:00:34 good afternoon mr regan i gather you're going to take the oath there's a testament next to you take it in your right hand please and read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i
00:00:45 by almighty god that the evidence i shall give she'll be the truth the whole truth for nothing but the truth thank you very much indeed you're welcome you might sit down and make yourself comfortable
00:00:55 okay there's water there if you yeah thanks very much you'd like it
00:01:08 all right when you're ready for james thank you mr regan thank you very much for coming to assist the inquiry with your evidence today yeah my questions are intended to be short and simple but if you do have any difficulty understanding them please don't hesitate
00:01:21 understanding them please don't hesitate to ask me to repeat or rephrase the question
00:01:23 question um if we get there we'll take a mid-afternoon break but if you do need a break at any point please do just feel free to say um please if you could be mindful of the
00:01:34 um please if you could be mindful of the stenographer who's to your right taking a note of everything um so avoid over speaking with me i'll try and do the same and also if you could just give us a yes or no answer and the question allows rather than shaking or nodding
00:01:46 allows rather than shaking or nodding your head otherwise that won't come up on the transcript okay now you've made one statement to the
00:01:53 the inquiry dated 24th of april 2021 and that's at tm020901275 and that will come up on the screen in front of you
00:02:07 yeah is that your statement that is my statement yes thank you and if we could go to page 14 please
00:02:16 is that your signature that is indeed yes thank you can you please confirm um that the contents of that statement is true it is yeah and have you had a chance to read the statement recently yes i have have you discussed your
00:02:28 yes i have have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming to the inquiry today no toner thank you now firstly i'd like to ask you about your roles and responsibilities when you worked for the tmo so if i can
00:02:39 when you worked for the tmo so if i can take you to page one of that statement
00:02:44 i'm just going to run briefly through it but you've got it there to refresh your memory if you need it is it right to say that you started working as a resident caretaker for the rbkc in june 1995.
00:02:56 rbkc in june 1995. that's correct yeah june 95. and you became a tmo employee in about mid 1996 but you remain seconded to lancaster west estate management board at that time that's correct yeah yeah
00:03:09 at that time that's correct yeah yeah and then in around 2015 or 16 your title changed from caretaker to estate service assistant is that right yes correct yeah then if we could go to paragraph 15 of your statement which is on page four
00:03:26 it says that the beginning when tmo took over responsibility for the caretakers esa's
00:03:32 esa's they dissolved our team they offered me a post as a floating caretaker esa now that was over the north of the borough wasn't it that's correct yes and so is it right that from that time that included
00:03:44 that from that time that included grenfell tower no it did not it did not include grenfell tower time when did it include grenfell tower um no turlock
00:03:53 turlock yes it would have been grim filter it would have been included at that point yes
00:03:56 yes grenfell tower would have been included and lancaster west estate still and so uh can you just help us with roughly the approximate date when you became
00:04:04 became a floating esa
00:04:09 it's about august i believe august august of 2016. i believe i took up post miss jones i'm sorry to interrupt you we seem to have a problem with the
00:04:20 seem to have a problem with the transcript yes you guys can say do you have it yes i do i've tried to refresh but it's not um hearing
00:04:31 i don't know whether anyone can solve this
00:04:35 this for us just at the moment
00:04:41 the the reason i think we should pause is because i'm concerned about other people
00:04:45 people who are trying to follow it and just so you understand mr regan there's a lot of people following these proceedings from other places yeah and some of them are having this transcript and if it doesn't work
00:04:56 transcript and if it doesn't work properly
00:04:57 properly it makes life difficult for them to say we'll just watch that pause a second and see if we can sort it out
00:05:08 um
00:05:12 i wonder if we should ask i could ask you to rise for five minutes back well i might
00:05:16 might we may need to do that i'm just taking my own hands for a minute which is probably
00:05:22 probably worse than useless but yeah it's still not right
00:05:26 not right um yeah i'm sorry i think we're going to have to rise a few minutes while we sort this out mr eagan so sure um would you go to the usher and and i'll take the opportunity now to ask you
00:05:36 you to say something which i'm going to say again when we have a break please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room all right okay thank you you'd like to go the usher please
00:05:55 right well we'll rise for as long as it takes to get this sorted out then thank you very much
00:11:48 would you ask mr eagle to come back in
00:11:54 please
00:12:00 well i'm sorry about that mr regan seems that we've solved the problem technology keep our fingers crossed technology that's what it is exactly so when you're ready miss jones let's crack on thank you mr chairman
00:12:13 crack on thank you mr chairman mr reagan i was asking you about paragraph 15 of your statement which should still be in front of you um and you've helped us with the fact that you took on your floating caretaker
00:12:24 caretaker esa role in about august 2016. i want to ask you about the second sentence of paragraph 15 second line this involved moving around the borough covering the whole of the
00:12:35 the borough covering the whole of the north and providing cover for esa's on holiday or sick leave and in respect of that can i ask for grenfell tower was your role essentially to provide cover for paul stedman
00:12:47 cover for paul stedman yes it would be here yes thank you now if i could go to paragraph 21 of your statement that's on page five
00:12:59 and it says there at the beginning in 2016
00:13:02 2016 when tmo took over and changed my role to float over the north of the borough i was not familiar with all the rbkc blocks in the north of the area at that time i had a very limited
00:13:13 at that time i had a very limited knowledge of the layout of the various blocks
00:13:16 blocks were you familiar with grenfell tower when you took over this role pretty familiar with it yeah yeah and that through past experience yeah time and and living there working there
00:13:29 and and living there working there so yeah pretty familiar with grandfather do you recall between august 2016 and the night of the fire on the 14th of june 2017
00:13:39 june 2017 how regularly you covered paul stephen um
00:13:42 um when when when you're carrying out inspections for grenfell tower i think i only covered him about once in the time i was in a floating
00:13:54 once in the time i was in a floating role
00:13:56 role from the time i left lancaster west team amv
00:13:59 amv and became a floater i believe only covered him just once once just once
00:14:07 just once and we have a spreadsheet i don't need to take you to it um that shows that you carried out a weekly inspection on the 16th of february 2017. does that sound about right to you if that's what yeah yeah thank you
00:14:21 apart from covering um paul stedman in your role as a floating caretaker usa is it right that another feature of your role was to address actions that arose from
00:14:32 was to address actions that arose from karl stokes's fire risk assessments
00:14:37 if i was if i was aware of made aware of any of the actions that coal stokes had notified the tmo about through various departments health and safety whether it would go to a team leader and then the
00:14:48 would go to a team leader and then the team leader would generate a form and bring that to my attention to follow up
00:14:54 up but other than that unless those were on that spreadsheet no it wouldn't be on our total mobile phone
00:15:01 phone those follow-up actions or any actions outstanding via any fras stuff like that yes i understand thank you and was that always something that was a part of your role at least from when
00:15:12 part of your role at least from when carl stokes began his work in september 20
00:15:14 20 2010. yeah if we received uh before received or any of the caretakers received an fra form with a list of relevant jobs
00:15:25 form with a list of relevant jobs pertaining to their job roles they would be required like i would be to go and check and see they've been completed and follow up appropriately with whatever department
00:15:36 appropriately with whatever department was
00:15:37 was the ones that issued the fra that's helpful thank you now in respect of your supervisors um do you recall that between 2011 to february 2016 you
00:15:48 between 2011 to february 2016 you reported to siobhan rumble sorry can i just correct you there were no supervisors there was only area manager which was siobhan rumble she was the area manager exclusively for
00:16:00 she was the area manager exclusively for lancaster west estate she didn't have any other relevant estates to cover she was in charge of rent income for a while
00:16:10 while and that was about it but for lancaster where she was the senior officer she was the you know the called the area manager there were no supervisors yes understand at that time and you
00:16:22 yes understand at that time and you reported to her until february 2016 when she left yes thank you and then after that uh you reported to nicola bartholomew from may to august 2016.
00:16:35 from may to august 2016. yes i did and then after that from august 2016 until about january or february 2017 you reported to louise nesendonie yes that's correct yeah
00:16:46 that's correct yeah and then after that did you report to martin barr until about may 2017. that's incorrect
00:16:50 incorrect martin barr was leaving the company um within a week or so of me joining the tmo as a floater louise had stepped into the role whether
00:17:03 louise had stepped into the role whether it was full-time or part-time couldn't tell you and shortly after louise
00:17:08 louise stepped down back or left mish i was off for about five and a half months and when i came back michelle levy was picking up the role
00:17:19 levy was picking up the role of team leader for the north of the borough so it would have been louise michelle that's helpful martin barr was prior to louise thank you welcome now in respect of your
00:17:32 thank you welcome now in respect of your day-to-day responsibilities if i could take you to paragraph 18 of your statement which starts on page four and runs to page five so if i could ask the trial director to have both pages up on your screen
00:17:49 there we go and it says there at paragraph 18 my role included checking inspecting and reporting on the following brackets please note this list is not exhaustive and now you've set out a
00:18:01 exhaustive and now you've set out a number of
00:18:02 number of checks from a to l i just want to ask you about a couple of the checks on that list
00:18:09 list firstly item d it says fire expansion strips
00:18:12 strips yeah can i ask was that intumescent strips
00:18:16 strips on fire doors yeah i've had them terminalized in different ways but to me they're a kind of a far expansion strip or a felt strip or a rubberized strip that would
00:18:27 strip or a rubberized strip that would be in the door or attached to the door in some way yeah and was that a check you were doing to a communal door or a flat entrance door it would be maintenant it would be
00:18:38 maintenant it would be any doors pertaining to communal walkways um or fire exit doors to stairwells different blocks
00:18:48 blocks different layouts different style of doors and you do a visual check purely visual yes um to see that they were in one piece yes there wasn't any breaks yes so that
00:19:01 yes there wasn't any breaks yes so that was part of the role yes i understand now uh looking down that list we don't see flat entrance doors and you you help us with that at paragraph 29 of your statement if i could ask that we go there it's on page seven
00:19:18 and you say my role did not include checking flat entrance doors i don't recall raising any repair requests for flat doors only for broken locks or damage on communal doors
00:19:29 communal doors we would also respond to calls if a resident was locked out or if their door was broken so can i just clarify um you would only
00:19:40 so can i just clarify um you would only look for damage to communal doors you would never look for damage on flat entrance doors even if you were just walking around the building if i saw doors say for example there may
00:19:52 if i saw doors say for example there may be
00:19:52 be a front door which had a letterbox fascia they were very bland very cheap be honest two screws and just a flat and if they were damaged or hanging
00:20:04 flat and if they were damaged or hanging off you
00:20:04 off you would put that in because it was damaged as a rule
00:20:09 as a rule residents would normally be the first to ring up about you know stuff like that but if i saw it yeah i would make a note of it and report it through to csc or make a note of it on the total mobile get it in
00:20:19 get it in but there was a there was a very um
00:20:27 loose so there was no protocol for us i had no understanding if you saw something you reported it if you saw it it wasn't like there was a book per se i was just
00:20:38 book per se i was just vigilant as i could be and picked up as many repairs as i could do with the time i had allocated to me and get them to the csc sometimes on the phone
00:20:47 phone or sometimes through the total mobile depending on urgent i'd deemed it to be and if it was pretty urgent it would go through on the phone to csc so yeah if i saw the letterbox
00:20:58 to csc so yeah if i saw the letterbox you know yeah it would come through yes so would it be fair to say that your checks were um of the external side of the flat entrance door absolutely yeah and they were a visual
00:21:09 absolutely yeah and they were a visual check only and they were essentially on an ad hoc basis yes
00:21:16 basis yes now in respect of your training you've helped us with that at paragraphs 41 and 42 of your statement if i could ask that we go there it's on page nine
00:21:29 and there i'll read it out you say before 14th of june 2017 i do not believe that i received any training regarding smoke control or av dry risers evacuation emergency lighting
00:21:40 dry risers evacuation emergency lighting flat entrance doors fire notices and or fire risk assessments i consider the fire safety training that i have received was piecemeal rather than a full fire safety training package
00:21:51 package can you help us why do you consider your fire safety training was piecemeal over the years that i worked as a caretaker
00:22:04 the job role changed from manual to administrative what was originally a mop and bucket role became much more administrative and therefore obviously we would expect to move with those tasks with the
00:22:16 move with those tasks with the appropriate training the fire training which we had yearly was
00:22:22 was repetitive we would have a video of the bradford fire we would be told about how convection operates and the fuels what sparks fires we would be told
00:22:33 we would be told we would go and we would work with fire extinguishers put out a fire and a you know monitor to me didn't include what do you do if
00:22:44 to me didn't include what do you do if somebody puts a match to half a dozen bins in a bin room down in the basement where you got cars and pictures well what do you do about that what do you do about propane bottles and gas bottles what do you think about that where'd you put them where's the storage
00:22:55 where'd you put them where's the storage where's the policy for it the no fire notices we were given notices and just told put them place them here place them there that's what we did the relevance of the fire
00:23:06 what we did the relevance of the fire notices what was on the written word in front of us so when you take all these bits and pieces there wasn't a full to me it wasn't a full package it was
00:23:18 to me it wasn't a full package it was as they felt you needed it once a year for your fire extinguishers once a year for your you know your your your
00:23:25 your bradford fire video and let's learn a little quick quiz i just didn't feel they encompassed the what we did
00:23:35 did what do you do when you've got motorcycles stranded in pram sheds with fuel tanks off who takes them where's the recovery what's the protocol if that's not piecemeal to me i don't
00:23:46 if that's not piecemeal to me i don't know what it is yeah i understood so you're working in a very kind of to me or you you were working in a tight criteria it was they gave you some tools perhaps not all the tools and i just felt
00:23:58 not all the tools and i just felt personally from my opinion was piecemeal most of what i learned was experience and reading up you know not saying the the training didn't have some merits
00:24:10 didn't have some merits but to me it didn't didn't tell you with the role that we did and it sometimes was short of some of the things that we needed and i felt we needed to know yes and that
00:24:21 i felt we needed to know yes and that would include the topics on in your paragraph 41 would it yeah emergency lighting um we had no plans where the emergency boat was replaced there's no plans you you went to the blocks if you were
00:24:32 you you went to the blocks if you were especially for me if i was covering as i said i only knew some of the blocks vaguely but the pattern of lighting where would the bulk is lay down you had red light red indicator lights
00:24:43 you had red light red indicator lights green indicator lights battery pack just i just did all right thank you do you call ever receiving training on the regulatory reform fire safety order of 2005.
00:24:54 2005. sorry can you play that again did you recall ever receiving training on fire safety legislation the regulatory reform fire safety order of 2005. no maybe frank maybe it was put across
00:25:07 no maybe frank maybe it was put across in a training through the but i don't request your body like that and there wasn't anything in right that says this is the blah blah blah blah no no and do you recall ever receiving training on
00:25:18 receiving training on um a guidance document about fire safety uh that was published by the local government association and it was titled fire safety and purpose built blocks of flash
00:25:28 flash i don't know no i didn't thank you do you recall having team meetings with the estate services team which team there are
00:25:39 state services team which team there are different teams do you receive do you recall going to team meetings we had amongst the west we had regular
00:25:50 we had amongst the west we had regular team meetings of our own
00:25:58 and did you receive bias sorry to cut across you but you received fire safety training at those meetings no no do you recall having on-site briefings
00:26:09 briefings when you were carrying out your role on-site briefings pertaining to can you give me an example elaborate will be on it for me
00:26:16 it for me well were there any fire safety topics discussed at any on-site briefings well over the years i'm sure if something new was implemented onto the estate
00:26:27 implemented onto the estate relevant to our role that we needed to be aware of we would be made aware of it i know for a fact that siobhan rumble was very conscious of us being appraised of any
00:26:39 conscious of us being appraised of any new um installations and we would be made aware that there would be forthcoming training she was very good at that she was very on the ball and out you know she was um
00:26:51 know she was um but aside from that no no unless we did a specific training for something specific no okay and do you recall janice ray ever
00:27:02 and do you recall janice ray ever meeting
00:27:02 meeting with you and perhaps the other esa's to reiterate standards which you needed to apply in your health and safety inspections
00:27:13 i've met with janice over the years many many times and i've had many many meetings with many different people including janice who i know very well
00:27:25 it's possible she did but i don't recall any specific day or time or pertaining to
00:27:34 to you know janice again to my mind was always pretty pretty good at picking up something that the caretakers need to know it
00:27:45 know it the health and safety team adrian and janice
00:27:48 janice were pretty honest pretty much on it in that respect yes but i can't recall any specific meeting with janice pertaining to what you're talking about sorry i can't thank you that's helpful
00:28:01 sorry i can't thank you that's helpful and do you recall receiving any specific training on inspecting a high-rise block
00:28:08 can i ask you now to look at tmo 100-4898
00:28:15 so this is a participants list from a training session we understand was held on the 2nd of december 2016 entitled esa fire safety training and
00:28:26 entitled esa fire safety training and your name is at the top of that list there with a signature next to it is that your signature that is more singular do you remember attending that training
00:28:42 let me take you to the slide no i was there
00:28:46 there obviously my name's there yeah do i remember standing there no well let me take you to the slides and that that might help refresh your memory
00:28:55 memory it's tmo 100 48994
00:29:00 this is the first page of the slide fire safety training objectives and i can just read out a couple of the relevant bullet points so it says to remind esa's about responsibilities under fire safety
00:29:12 responsibilities under fire safety legislation and jumping to the third one to outline specific responsibilities in relation to inspections of fire safety features of blocks emergency lighting fire alarms aovs dry rises fire doors
00:29:23 fire alarms aovs dry rises fire doors etcetera
00:29:25 etcetera explain the importance of these to outline the tmo's approach to fire risk assessments and issues being highlighted by these to clarify evacuation strategies for residents
00:29:34 residents and to reiterate current procedures and identify any areas for improvements um now having shown that to you is this jog your memory do you attend do
00:29:45 is this jog your memory do you attend do you remember attending this training session
00:29:48 session no no i i signed it i was there so obviously i was there do you know how many of these i would have attended 26 years you know to pinpoint one
00:29:59 26 years you know to pinpoint one specific
00:30:00 specific for me is i've looking at this flies like this notifications like this letters like this paperwork like this
00:30:11 come on it's just yeah i was there do i recall i've no doubt there was a lot said
00:30:19 lot said but there's always a lot said you know and it's changing all the times what i'm trying to get you know taking that all in
00:30:26 in um but yes i was there do i remember this
00:30:33 no i know of i know these procedures i know these procedures but no i don't recall specifically that particular date that particular yes
00:30:44 that particular date that particular yes sorry
00:30:44 sorry no understood um i just want to take you to slide 24 i appreciate what you say about not remembering being there but it might just help with my next question and we can see on
00:30:55 with my next question and we can see on that slide that what appears to be a part of the training session is um detail about flat entrance doors requirements damaged flat entrance doors temporary doors and then if we can go on to the next
00:31:07 and then if we can go on to the next slide we can see some pictures of some damaged flat doors if we go to the next one after that and the next one after that so i appreciate you you may not remember the details of this training session but
00:31:19 the details of this training session but what i want to ask is do you recall um before december 2016 whether you received specific training
00:31:28 training on uh inspecting flat entrance doors or was it something a bit more recently perhaps after december 2016. it would have been for me my
00:31:39 it would have been for me my recollection of any flat trading doors would have been after 2016. definitely prior to that no do you recall if that was prompted by the adair tower fire that happened
00:31:51 the adair tower fire that happened on 31st of october 2015. i'd say yeah without a question of a doubt yeah i think a lot of changes happened after the fire
00:32:03 i'd now like to ask you about the um inspection process so if we could please turn to the estate staff quick reference handbook it's a tmo 100 28449
00:32:20 is this something that you're familiar with
00:32:25 yeah yeah do you recall being given a copy
00:32:29 copy yes i do yeah and would you carry it around with you on your inspections no i wouldn't carry around me on my inspections no would you refer to it at all
00:32:38 all it depends if if i was being on a float um generally at the office if there was something i needed to clarify i would refer to it but often there's
00:32:49 i would refer to it but often there's not a lot of what i did came through the experience you know but if i was uncertain about something or needed some guidance on a professional level from one of our techies
00:32:58 techies i just used to go and see them directly you know
00:33:01 you know try and try and cut time down it was always about time time time and what you've got up here what you know we learn up here is what
00:33:12 what you know we learn up here is what carries us through the day and we carry an awful lot of believe or not stuff we carry a lot of equipment as well but you may not believe what we do a lot of keys notepads phone
00:33:24 notepads phone pens you've got some some of the layers may carry
00:33:28 may carry tools with them if they've got to do minor jobs or adjustments it just you run out you know in the summer if you're only wearing a shirt which doesn't have a pocket and two pockets so it's something fill up let me tell you especially
00:33:39 fill up let me tell you especially what you want in your back pocket yes absolutely if i could take you to page 83
00:33:48 beginning of page 83 and it runs for a couple of pages we see something called the inspections routine checklist yeah daily routine checks it's got a number of items listed is this something that you're familiar with yeah i think it's off total mobile
00:33:59 it's off total mobile and is this the checklist that you would use
00:34:03 use certainly before the personal digital assistants came into play
00:34:09 well this what i'm looking at looks familiar
00:34:13 familiar through total mobile up until that point
00:34:17 i never had a list check sheet like that when did you start using total mobile it would have come in at the time we was at lancaster west
00:34:28 at the time we was at lancaster west that's that's for certain and it would have been sort of the latter stages before i left probably a couple of years before so it was we changed over from a handwritten form to electronic form so
00:34:39 handwritten form to electronic form so this is where i'm recognizing that from so it would have been used on lancaster west around it yeah that's fair to say that but it came in i think electronically more than it was certainly not on the hand yes not the
00:34:51 certainly not on the hand yes not the forms i saw anyway yes and when you were conducting your inspections yeah would it be your aim to go through all of the items on this checklist
00:34:59 checklist oh yeah you you do your best to get through
00:35:02 through as much as you could yeah you know um
00:35:07 can i ask you something about uh uh in your statement of paragraph 20 yeah it's a page five
00:35:23 uh you say there that it's about third line down repairs to be raised could vary between the size of the building being inspected along with the time allowed to do the
00:35:34 along with the time allowed to do the inspection yeah now can you help us with how much time was allowed for your inspection that's a good question that's a very good question what you first have to understand is
00:35:46 what you first have to understand is that
00:35:47 that each caretaker had his own designated patch and those patches may have tower blocks
00:35:55 blocks in them one example there are four 20-story tower blocks on one estate encompassing that and a lot of low rises and one caretaker might have to cover
00:36:07 might have to cover 40 blocks some might have less the tmo and the council see a house as a unit
00:36:14 unit one unit one house one unit so if they calculate that each caretaker should have 900 units that's how they equate your state
00:36:24 state what they don't equate is the layout of the buildings now if you take something like trellic tower
00:36:33 tower which is 32 i think residential floors and six non-residential floors consisting of basements and plant rooms two 32 of 32 floor fire staircases with three
00:36:46 32 floor fire staircases with three lifts
00:36:47 lifts um with a designated number of landings and then each landing's got its own long walkway okay and you might be get if you're lucky you might get two hours
00:36:58 lucky you might get two hours right but you might still have another eight or nine blocks to do to meet them the quota for the day so if there's only in
00:37:05 in seven hour working day and i say right well two of those in the trench off you go
00:37:10 go now you've got a look at everything and who set that time allowance that that was laid out by the tmos management right they would lay out the patches and tell you what you you know they set your patches many of the boys have had their
00:37:21 patches many of the boys have had their patches for years but the patches kept changing they gets they get they got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger they started out being what i would call relatively manageable but as caretakers left some
00:37:34 manageable but as caretakers left some weren't replaced it's only bringing an agency caretaker who doesn't know the manner he don't know the layout of the block so he's going to take more time yes i understand that would that would that wasn't factored in give you it off you go do it i don't care how long it
00:37:46 you go do it i don't care how long it takes you just don't do it you know and that's how they work it so you get out there so your experience is what counts so from my perspective when i went into any block no matter whether it's a tower block or a low-rise block i'm looking at the
00:37:57 or a low-rise block i'm looking at the hot spots
00:37:59 hot spots yes i'm looking at first of all resident safety
00:38:03 safety hot spots things that could be dangerous yeah and i try and pick as many of them up as i can to lock that into your total mobile one job can take as many as 10 minutes depending on the amount of detail you're going to put into it what happens if you find 25
00:38:15 put into it what happens if you find 25 jobs
00:38:16 jobs yeah you're stuck in that block like you can't walk out you can't just go i'll put them on later you've got to do it now got to photograph it so consequently it can delay you and slow you down yes
00:38:27 slow you down yes sorry it was long-winded but you're not asking that's all right it's just that you might have to slow down a little bit sorry yeah transcribers having trouble getting i'm sorry i'm sorry yeah there it is you know depending on the
00:38:39 there it is you know depending on the size of the block can depend how long you get in there and obviously what you find
00:38:43 find can slow you down if you're lucky you get in and you get out without too much delay and you cover as much as you can the intention is to cover everything but that isn't always and wasn't always the case
00:38:54 wasn't always the case yes you covered in really important parts and hope and that was it yes that's all you can do what can you do yes understood um can i please take you to paragraph 55 of your statement it's
00:39:07 to paragraph 55 of your statement it's on page 11.
00:39:11 i want to ask you about a separate topic now with self-closing devices on flat entrance doors and you say that
00:39:18 say that i was not involved with the flat door replacement scheme in any way no i recall that there were issues after the new doors were installed my colleague seamus dunley the former lancaster west handyman
00:39:29 lancaster west handyman told me that he received calls from residents regarding keys snapping off in locks
00:39:33 locks gaps between the frames and the doors and gaps between the frames and the brickwork
00:39:37 brickwork beyond that i was not aware of any other issues such as self-closures being removed
00:39:43 removed now did sheamus dunley tell you about these issues with the doors that you've identified in this paragraph and immediately after the doors were replaced in
00:39:54 replaced in about 2012 2013 or much later in time no sorry no shamers shared the office with me and paul so when these new doors were all
00:40:05 paul so when these new doors were all installed
00:40:07 installed when a not call came through to sheamus his phone he'd pick it up and he'd go i got him to do a full stench or someone's keys broken that lock and we knew it was all new doors no we knew it was all new doors
00:40:19 it was all new doors so whatever was going on was problematic with the new door and he might walk back with a broken key and say rest just give me i've just tried to get the key in and
00:40:30 key in and and so i would see it the broken lock yeah but sorry to cut across you're just sure i'm trying to just pinpoint the time all the time the time when he told you so was it uh just after the new doors were replaced
00:40:41 doors were replaced is that what you're saying yeah yeah it was when the new installations took place after just after thank you sorry about it no that's that's fine um and did you report um these issues to anyone more senior or do you know seamus dunley
00:40:53 senior or do you know seamus dunley reported
00:40:54 reported the fact that there was these issues with the doors after they had been replaced
00:40:58 replaced i can't say that he did but i know shameless well enough to know that he would go back to the office and certainly speak to one of the managers because it was a real problem for him yes these complaints that were coming
00:41:09 yes these complaints that were coming back to him i'd like to just ask you something and that's in shame stunning statement that he gave to the police that's at
00:41:19 five met3019959 except page page six please
00:41:28 so he says this in the second um substantial paragraph down he says just after the warranty ran out the doors started going wrong they had internal door closers that were
00:41:39 they had internal door closers that were pulling out from the door because they had tiny little screws holding them in and they had a massive fat spring inside the door had a hole drilled into it had an enclosed spring that went into the
00:41:50 an enclosed spring that went into the door and would have a chain which attached to the frame
00:41:55 the springs were quite big and the screws that were holding them in were too small
00:41:58 too small some of the screws were pulling out of the door and someone pulling out of the frame
00:42:02 frame if it's coming out of the frame or the door the chain goes round you can't shut the door
00:42:06 the door you can't reattach it because of the fixings so i would have no alternative but to remove it i think i did this to about 10 doors now pausing there do you remember seamus
00:42:17 pausing there do you remember seamus dunley
00:42:17 dunley telling you that there was an issue with self-closing devices and he as a result had to remove them from you
00:42:24 from you recall him telling me about self-closures you know yes and do you recall him telling you that he had to remove them from about 10 doors i recall him telling me that he had removed
00:42:35 that he had removed door closers but how many i don't recall yes but i know there were instances where i believe he'd had to because those people couldn't get in yes and
00:42:46 those people couldn't get in yes and again trying to pinpoint the time was this just after the doors were installed absolutely it was after it and did you raise this with anyone more senior
00:42:56 senior the fact that there was issues with the self-closing devices well i was only made aware of it via sheamus and shane was answered directly to siobhan he didn't answer to me he answered tisha von not trying to shun away when i mean
00:43:07 von not trying to shun away when i mean but we tended to try and keep everything streamlined as we could so if we had a beef i would and i'm coming to you i'm going to come to you because it could get distorted in some
00:43:18 because it could get distorted in some way yeah sheamus was very much the kind of guy that wanted to would take it straight to you he wouldn't mess around he was a very straight-up guy like that if he had something to say he'd do it and so if there was an issue
00:43:29 and so if there was an issue he would come to shifon yes and do you know if he specifically raised it with siobhan rumble or anyone else when you were both discussing it i can't say that he i wasn't there
00:43:40 say that he i wasn't there no but what i can say is that i am sure that he would have i know sheamus well enough to know him to say that he wouldn't leave it dormant he wasn't that kind of a guy
00:43:52 he wasn't that kind of a guy he was very much you know very fit and
00:43:59 it would annoy him that he's got these doors are on and he's having to do this so he's is that does that make sense i'm coming to see you because you know that's all it's all about yes that makes sense thank you
00:44:12 about yes that makes sense thank you and do you know if this problem with the self-closing devices um was was remedied do you did you i couldn't say no i couldn't tell you
00:44:23 can i now turn to a different topic um in respect of emergency planning yeah um if we can go to tmo 100
00:44:34 28449
00:44:38 so we're back at the estate staff quick reference handbook that you helped us with earlier particularly i'd like to go to page 46 now
00:44:49 and there it sets out details about emergency planning and it says this kctmo has a documented emergency plan which will be invoked when the situation requires it esa's
00:45:01 requires it esa's are an important link in the emergency planning process due to their local knowledge
00:45:05 knowledge you may be called out at any time during and for resident essays outside of working hours to deal with an emergency situation
00:45:14 situation and then it sets out and the rest of that page and the following page various actions that it advises you to carry out it advises the essay to carry out
00:45:24 out can you just help us in around 2017 and what did you understand your responsibilities to be in the event of an emergency my understanding is that if i was needed i would be
00:45:36 is that if i was needed i would be contacted
00:45:37 contacted and generally you would stand by there was a
00:45:41 was a call out caretaker on duty at all times we won for the south one for the north as a rule i don't know i was on it for a while but i'd come off it
00:45:52 while but i'd come off it when i moved out of the estate and moved into my
00:45:55 into my house which was about 45 minutes away and did you receive any training on how to carry out that role no no and then looking at page 47 if we
00:46:07 no no and then looking at page 47 if we can
00:46:10 it says their middle of the page advise of any known vulnerable less able-bodied residents that may come to your attention as needing assistance pass this information on to the csc
00:46:21 pass this information on to the csc which i think is the customer service center
00:46:23 center um was this something that you knew you knew you were required to do during the course of an emergency situation in the emergency situation if there was a a resident who was in a position of
00:46:37 a resident who was in a position of should we say special needs or disability or age or yeah and to be fair a lot of the caretakers including myself passed a lot of information over to csc
00:46:49 passed a lot of information over to csc which at that time would have held a database
00:46:53 database so if we were called to an emergency they would then pass to us right you're going to sign so block these residents these residents you would
00:47:03 would go most the guys have been there for years they they know people who like i did many of them that were special needs and elderly or whatever so
00:47:14 elderly or whatever so yes um i i knew the protocols if there was residents that were you know in need then yeah but generally speaking of the neighborhood officers had a much more
00:47:26 neighborhood officers had a much more direct interaction with residents than we did we were more external we have to stand we were maintenance we were more
00:47:33 were more we we got pulled in over time to pick up roles that perhaps as far as i'm not necessarily should be our responsibility to do we do it yes you understand we care i
00:47:46 we do it yes you understand we care i cared
00:47:47 cared but there was there was certain jobs that perhaps that we we won't shouldn't for example one lady forgot to tell you well if i can stop trying
00:47:58 tell you well if i can stop trying you've been extremely helpful with that answer but i just wanted to ask you a follow-on question yeah yeah is that what would you do if for example when you were carrying out your um weekly inspection of a building you
00:48:10 um weekly inspection of a building you were covering for somebody and you became aware of a disabled or less able-bodied resident um would you during the course of your normal weekly inspections
00:48:22 normal weekly inspections also pass on information to the custom support
00:48:26 support customer service center about that resident and the fact that they had a vulnerability or a disability yeah if i felt there was a necessity a necessity i would have no hesitation
00:48:37 a necessity i would have no hesitation in going forward and talking to a neighborhood officer or a team leader about somebody who's got special needs but again i want to emphasize that we knew many many residents
00:48:50 we knew many many residents and unless you're aware of the what goes on behind the closed doors you know you might see a resident going down the road on a wheelchair but they they
00:49:02 on a wheelchair but they they they want you to they'll come to you but if you see something if i saw say for example somebody who may be holding maybe mental issues you know if i felt there was yeah of course
00:49:13 there was yeah of course of course and on occasions i did too and what
00:49:16 what were you told that csc would do with that information you passed it on i'm sorry wasn't told anyway you okay so you just knew to pass on the information but you didn't know for what purpose
00:49:27 purpose because yeah because again it could go to any number of departments you you had the the goal post kept changing
00:49:35 changing yes i understand yeah so all you can do is take it to your line manager or if you
00:49:40 you if it's my case i knew the neighborhood officers had their own patches so they should be familiar themselves with a vulnerable residence list they're interacting their visiting officers
00:49:51 visiting officers so they should be more keyed up than we should
00:49:55 should you follow me yes so if they don't know well i'll bring it to you they'll say okay yeah i've got that and right yes i understand and that was
00:50:06 right yes i understand and that was where it would can i take you to um carl stokes is one of carlton's fire risk assessments yeah and it's dated the 20th of june 2016. it's at cst403145
00:50:23 particularly we're looking at page five please
00:50:31 and it's the bottom of that page it's titled the evacuation strategy for this building
00:50:38 building now it says there in that box the fire service or tmo employees can you see that as the third sentence from the bottom
00:50:45 bottom the fire service or tmo employees will arrange for a general evacuation of the whole building at any time if this is appropriate to do so now my question on this is were you aware that you were
00:50:58 is were you aware that you were to assist with arranging general evacuation of grenfell tower at any time if appropriate to do so no thank you can i move on
00:51:09 no thank you can i move on then to page 24 of this document
00:51:21 and it's the box at the top of the page this is in a section titled disabled residence and it's the second half of that box that i'd like to take you to it says there both of the lifts in this
00:51:32 it says there both of the lifts in this building
00:51:33 building are firefighter evacuation lifts and could be used as part of the evacuation strategy for disabled persons and then it goes on to say but uh if these lifts were used this would be under the control of the fire service
00:51:45 under the control of the fire service if they were in attendance now first question is did you know that the lifts in grenfell tower were firefighter or evacuation lifts did you ever receive any training on how to use the lifts in
00:51:57 any training on how to use the lifts in an evacuation no no can i take you to another document please it's
00:52:06 tmo20866013
00:52:12 so you can see at the top there this is something called the supporting residence procedure which we understand came into force in about april 2016. is this a document that you're familiar
00:52:24 is this a document that you're familiar with
00:52:26 with no no you've never seen it before and i've seen that before no and can i then turn to a statement that we have from rico toyoshima lewis it's at iws401725
00:52:48 that's the statement that she's given uh to the inquiry if i could go to page 21 please
00:52:56 and we're looking at paragraph 63 she says one of the issues i did raise was regarding what would happen in terms of me escaping if there was a fire i asked rob and the neighborhood
00:53:09 fire i asked rob and the neighborhood officer what would happen if there was a fire in relation to me escaping i also asked people working in the latimer road office what would happen if there was a fire as i'm in a wheelchair now do you remember are you the rob that
00:53:20 now do you remember are you the rob that she's referring she i am indeed i remember this lady yes i remember this lady well and do you recall speaking to her about how she would evacuate in the event of a fire we had a long conversation um and i do recall
00:53:31 recall speaking to her about that very issue she raised with me and was part of a much bigger conversation um
00:53:42 conversation um i'd been sent down there because of a issue with her chair a moba mobility chair which was being charged
00:53:53 being charged with an electrical cable through the letterbox yes when i got there i could see straight off the bat that this this was problematic and i really didn't feel comfortable about this because it was a health and
00:54:05 about this because it was a health and safety issue that i felt should have been
00:54:07 been issued or dealt with by them directly but i went down there on the behest of my team leader to assess and tell her she couldn't charge it and i could clearly see there's no way it could be done unless there were sockets
00:54:18 could be done unless there were sockets on the landing and we when she came to the door she was a lovely lady japanese i believe she is and she was so bent over how she was put in that flat to this day i do not know totally
00:54:29 to this day i do not know totally inappropriate for her then i and i'm so and she asked me she you could see she was she was very concerned i looking at her and i'm like how did you in in my mind how did you end up here
00:54:41 in in my mind how did you end up here and just to clarify you concerned about how she was going to evacuate in the evening
00:54:46 evening it was yes and can i ask you that it's totally inappropriate for her to be there in my opinion i'm sorry i can i also follow on because she goes on to say
00:54:57 she goes on to say at paragraph 67 of her statement
00:55:05 and this might just help us with the the conversation she says that um the response that i received in relation to what would happen if there was a fire and i'm in a wheelchair was from rob and
00:55:16 and i'm in a wheelchair was from rob and the neighborhood neighborhood office was verbal
00:55:18 verbal where i was told that i am on the list for disabled people in the tower now that's what i wanted to ask you is do you recall telling her that she was on a list for disabled people in grenfell tower
00:55:29 people in grenfell tower slightly incorrect what i said to her was i believed she would be on a list for disabled people because at that point in time the tmo were compiling lists for final business they were
00:55:41 lists for final business they were updating if i recall correctly and the grenfell tower refurbishment had taken place obviously involved new residents
00:55:48 residents and there was that floor that floor was i believe primarily designed for disabled
00:55:53 disabled and special needs individuals yes so i went down there and during the part of a much bigger conversation she asked and i said to all i believe you'd be on a disabled
00:56:03 disabled uh register so if if there was an issue here
00:56:07 here i'm sure you would need to you know you'd be
00:56:10 you'd be they'll get you out who did you understand was going to put her on that disabled register i believed it was the house neighborhood officers that were compiling it were were for lancaster west estate if you're the labour officer for that state you'd
00:56:22 the labour officer for that state you'd be responsible my guests i couldn't say but i do know that there was lists being compiled yeah and we was also told you know when you're out there if you see anybody you may feel this vulnerable bring it to our attention so i'm sure the other guys
00:56:33 our attention so i'm sure the other guys and i was
00:56:34 and i was um and this list was being compiled when it was compiled at a time i don't know but i certainly wasn't going to come here and make her feel any easier than she was she could see she was
00:56:43 she was nervy and i could see looking at that place that she was in a she shouldn't have been in there how she got there i don't know but i'm not going to make her feel any more uneasy yeah so i don't want to patronize her i don't
00:56:55 i don't want to patronize her i don't want to i'm not going to make her feel worse
00:56:57 worse i'm trying to make her feel at ease as well but not giving a false information but by giving her information that i believe to be factual and i to my understanding there was a list being compiled and i told her i believe you're on list for disabled people but i
00:57:09 you're on list for disabled people but i also told her look talk to a housing officer because they're more geared up than i am
00:57:13 than i am and they'll be able to tell you a little bit more she was such a sweet lady and i felt really bad when it because i couldn't do more went back and reported my findings on what i said what i found and told them you're gonna have to put some sockets on that now with that lady or get her out
00:57:25 that now with that lady or get her out of there because yes she shouldn't be in their flight and did you report to anyone yourself that she should be on that list
00:57:35 i would report it back to louise what my finding was as i said lancaster west by that time had their own team working down there i wasn't interacting with them so i
00:57:46 wasn't interacting with them so i i reported back to my team leader yes which have been louise um i have to a i uh to assume that she was being put onto a list or was on a list because it wasn't
00:57:58 was on a list because it wasn't i wasn't in my remit i wasn't uh you know a higher echelon yes i suppose i could have said she honest and i don't know maybe i may have done even but i did make it very clear that i had concerns about her
00:58:10 that i had concerns about her with that mobile scooter yeah with a cable coming through the door she had no choice it was in an impossible position and i think i needed to go back and look at it and take and get a neighborhood officer down here have a trap
00:58:21 officer down here have a trap i do remember that thank you that's very clear thank you and do you recall ever being required to post fire safety leaflets to residence homes at grenfell tower
00:58:38 posted so many leaflets look i i could have done i i'm sure if there was letters to go out we would have posted them i might say that to you i i i don't recall i put so many liquors
00:58:50 i i i don't recall i put so many liquors through so many doors thousands thousands
00:58:52 thousands understood perhaps i can just help by bringing up a document yeah please cst 3017272
00:59:05 cst 3017272 so this is an lfb home fire safety guide um is this a leaflet that you recall posting through residence doors at grenfell tower don't recall it no but as i said though
00:59:19 don't recall it no but as i said though there was a lot of letters yes different letters that you know sorry i wish i could be more specific but i can't that's fine if they were given to me i would have posted them
00:59:30 posted them yes i said thank you that's all i can say
00:59:34 say that's very clear thank you you're welcome mr regan those are all the questions that i have for the time being right um i'm going to ask now um the chairman if we can have a break to see if there any other questions i should put to you mr chairman yes well mr regan we usually
00:59:47 mr chairman yes well mr regan we usually do have a break at this point and give council a chance to check she's asked all the questions she should have asked
00:59:53 asked and also to enable other people who are following but from somewhere else to suggest questions they might think you won't be asked so we'll do you think 10 minutes is
01:00:04 so we'll do you think 10 minutes is enough stern i'm sure it is we'll break now for 10 minutes come back at 10 past three and then we'll see if there are any more questions thank you all right yeah sure thank you well now don't talk to anyone
01:00:16 thank you well now don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room
01:00:18 the room absolutely if you'd like to give the usher shield thank you very much thank you very much indeed thank you
01:00:34 um joe is ten minutes enough
01:00:39 right ten past three thank you very much
01:10:29 yes would you ask mr regan to come back in please
01:10:44 in please right mr reagan well we'll see if there's any more questions for you shall we
01:10:47 we sure yes mrs jones thank you very much mr again you'll be pleased to hear i don't have any further questions for you so that just leaves me to say thank you ever so much for coming to the inquiry to assist us with your attributes it's
01:10:58 to assist us with your attributes it's been a great help yeah well i i'd add my thanks to those of miss jones uh mr regan and i do so on behalf of all the members of the panel thank you thank you very much for coming in to talk to us it's been very helpful to
01:11:09 talk to us it's been very helpful to hear what there's been some tellers certainly you have and uh thank you very much thank you very much much obliged thank you good thank you
01:11:19 thank you right off you go then give her the usher she'll take you back thanks very much
01:11:35 thank you miss jones and that's our last witness for the day is it yes it is yes a little bit earlier then uh well never mind it's um it's good to have got through the day's work
01:11:46 have got through the day's work within the time allowed yes and uh we'll now
01:11:50 now uh break until monday of next week and we shall have another witness of
01:11:57 ready to go and we'll sit again at 10 o'clock
01:12:01 o'clock next monday thank you very much thank you thank you all very much
01:12:26 you