Shaheed Ahmed's statement is read in - founder of Grenfell Tower Leaseholders Association (GTLA) who campaigned for fire safety. He describes the TMO complaints procedure as 'judge jury and executioner'. David Noble (TMO Equality and Diversity Officer) gives evidence about equality impact assessments.
00:00:22 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to start today by reading in some important evidence from one of the bsr
00:00:33 from one of the bsr witnesses and when we've done that we shall move on to hearing further evidence from witnesses in person but mr milit you've got some reading to do first yes mr chairman thank you good morning and good morning
00:00:45 thank you good morning and good morning members of the panel mr chairman members of the panel this is a suitable moment to turn to the evidence of mr shaheed ahmed
00:00:54 ahmed mr ahmed lived in flat 156 on floor 18 with his wife saeeda ahmed they moved into the tower in 1992 and they became leaseholders of
00:01:07 in 1992 and they became leaseholders of their property in 1999 can i please ask for iws401335
00:01:18 can i please ask for iws401335 page one to be brought up and displayed on the screen
00:01:23 this is the first page of mr ahmed's phase 2 statement it runs to 138 pages can i ask for the last page to be displayed please page 138
00:01:38 we can see there that there is a statement of truth a signature and the date 23rd of january 2020. this statement is accompanied by exhibits running to
00:01:51 is accompanied by exhibits running to 194
00:01:52 194 in number mr ahmed has also provided the inquiry with a supplemental statement responding to set questions from the inquiry
00:02:02 inquiry that is at iws402369 can i please have page one displayed that is the first page of mr ahmed's
00:02:13 that is the first page of mr ahmed's supplemental statement if we go to page 48 of that page of that of that statement we can see that it is dated the 17th of march 2021
00:02:24 that it is dated the 17th of march 2021 and it bears mr ahmed's signature beneath the statement of truth this statement has two exhibits to it
00:02:32 to it sa2 essay 1 and sa2 page 1 and essay 2 page 2. and those are at iws 40's 2367 and 2368.
00:02:44 40's 2367 and 2368. i ask that both statements with all accompanying exhibits be read formally into the inquiry's record
00:02:52 now on behalf of the inquiry at this point i would like to record the inquiries thanks to mr ahmed
00:02:59 ahmed for his enormous effort and his assistance to the inquiry his phase 2 statement exhibits 194 documents and he refers to many more documents in total
00:03:11 refers to many more documents in total some 536
00:03:14 some 536 the inquiries understanding of the experiences of those living in the tower and mr ahmed in particular have been most informed by his evidence as his supplemental
00:03:28 by his evidence as his supplemental statement provides further clarification to issues that mr ahmed has raised in his phase two statement i propose mr chairman to move between these two statements so as to cross-refer to relevant issues
00:03:39 so as to cross-refer to relevant issues as appropriate i start with the background can we start please with the phase two statement at page four para thirteen
00:03:56 and uh i i want iws four zero is one three
00:03:59 three three five page four
00:04:03 which is what i think i call the phase two statement
00:04:12 now at page 13 uh mr ahmed says this under the heading grenfell tower leaseholders association or gtla i spent many years campaigning as the founder and chair
00:04:23 founder and chair of grenfell tower leaseholders association gtla for better and safer conditions at grenfell tower i founded gtla in 2010
00:04:34 i founded gtla in 2010 sa 11. the main reason i decided to create a formal leaseholders association in 2010
00:04:40 in 2010 was that i thought we needed one voice
00:04:45 and now could i go please to page five at the top of that page where he continues there were 12 leaseholder members of gtla
00:04:56 leaseholder members of gtla in a document created in about october 2010 which i still have at least their exhibits i set out the roles for the officers of gtla at that time
00:05:07 gtla at that time i was the chair and tunde was the vice chair
00:05:11 chair keith mott was the secretary and treasurer
00:05:14 treasurer i recall that there were some other leasehold flats in the building but they were owned by a housing association who refused to join i please have paragraph 17 of page 7
00:05:26 i please have paragraph 17 of page 7 next
00:05:30 and he explains the gtla was officially recognized on 5th january 2011 in an email from jane clifton kctmo executive office manager to keith mott
00:05:41 mott and he exhibits that that was an email from jane clifton at that exhibit he then refers in some detail to the complaints
00:05:52 refers in some detail to the complaints process
00:05:53 process can we go to page 10 in this exhibit plea in this witness statement please paragraph 25 [Applause] uh underneath the heading tmo complaints procedure mr ahmed says this
00:06:05 procedure mr ahmed says this whenever i had a problem that i wanted to raise with the tmo i would be told to direct it through their complaints procedure peter madison kctmo director of assets
00:06:16 peter madison kctmo director of assets and regeneration sasha jevons laura johnson and robert black in particular all told me to use the official process i thought that the complaints procedure
00:06:27 i thought that the complaints procedure was a way for the tmo to be judge jury and executioner it essentially let them judge themselves their strategy was to refer me to the complaints procedure
00:06:38 complaints procedure and exhaust gtla i felt that their replies never gave sincere attention to gtla's serious and grave
00:06:47 and grave concerns in grenfell tower the complaints i made never achieved anything that was why i repeatedly requested the grenfell tower be subjected to an independent health and safety review
00:06:59 and safety review in 2017.
00:07:03 in 2017. and if we turn the page please
00:07:07 because i did not trust the tmo to review themselves it is also why i always emailed rbkc and tmo officers and counsellors directly rather than use the complaints procedure
00:07:21 rather than use the complaints procedure and i can stop there if we move on please
00:07:25 please down the page to paragraph 26 mr ahmed continues
00:07:30 continues from the witness statements of rbkc and tmo
00:07:33 tmo it is now clear that there was a difference between the tmo complaints procedure
00:07:38 procedure and a member's inquiry this was never explained to gtla in all the years it was active i would always copy councillor blakeman and others into emails for the reason
00:07:49 and others into emails for the reason that i had no faith in the tmo complaints procedure can we please go to the supplemental statement iws402369
00:08:01 to the supplemental statement iws402369 page two it's useful at this point to cross refer to his supplemental statement and on page two there is the
00:08:12 statement and on page two there is the question
00:08:14 question at the top under a where you ever provided a copy of the tmo complaints policy and his answer at
00:08:21 answer at paragraph five this is the first time i have seen
00:08:25 have seen the tmo complaints policy and then he gives the reference during my 25 years at grenfell tower
00:08:34 turning to the topic then of complaints as chair of the gtla mr ahmed raised a number of complaints with the tmo some of these which are addressed in
00:08:45 tmo some of these which are addressed in mr ahmed's phase ii statement come within the scope of fire safety related complaints first the impact of the 2010 fire the first of the concerns uh relates to
00:08:58 the first of the concerns uh relates to a fire
00:08:59 a fire in the tower in april of that year 2010 it resulted in the spread of smoke over a number of floors in the building and injury to three residents including
00:09:10 and injury to three residents including to mr ahmed's wife mr ahmed sets out the complaints and the correspondence that followed that fire in paragraphs 35 to 58 of his phase 2 statement
00:09:22 to 58 of his phase 2 statement at pages 14 to 22. if we go to that statement and go to page 14
00:09:30 page 14 itself i'd like to look at paragraph 35.
00:09:39 that's iws four zero is one three three five
00:09:43 five page fourteen
00:09:47 and this is underneath the heading concerns about fire safety the fire in 2010
00:09:53 2010 as chair of gtla i was instrumental in campaigning about fire safety at grenfell tower the fire in april 2010 was the first major warning to me that residents lives might be in danger
00:10:06 that residents lives might be in danger my wife's injury made this a particularly distressing incident for me and you can turn the page my family and it had a huge impact on
00:10:17 my family and it had a huge impact on how i saw
00:10:17 how i saw health and safety at grenfell tower it was so difficult to make rbkc and the tmo take any responsibility and even after they admitted liability i
00:10:28 and even after they admitted liability i was sure that they were not taking the risk of another fire seriously i was not just looking for money for myself and my wife i was scared for all of the residents
00:10:39 i was scared for all of the residents even after we won our personal case against rbkc i continued to demand an explanation and better fire safety standards for years afterwards
00:10:50 for years afterwards [Music]
00:10:51 [Music] next the aov as a topic if we go to paragraph 37 of this statement
00:10:59 statement a little bit lower down the same page page 15 he says this i attached the report of attendance by london fire brigade issue date 22 december 2010 i obtained this through my lawyer and
00:11:11 i obtained this through my lawyer and paid 90 pounds for the report the report says that the firefighting lift was not working due to poor maintenance the smoke extraction stroke ventilation system on the same floor as the fire
00:11:22 system on the same floor as the fire did not contain the fire because of a fault in the system mr ahmed then goes on in subsequent paragraphs here to detail the correspondence that followed between himself and gtla and the tmo
00:11:36 between himself and gtla and the tmo uh over the fault in the aov system he also goes into detail in this in a supplemental witness statement can we look at that supplemental statement
00:11:47 supplemental statement page 28 iws 402369 at page 28 please the discussion begins at paragraph 93
00:12:03 but we can pick it up at paragraph 95 on the screen here where he first refers to the lfb's report
00:12:10 report into the 2010 fire and then he says this because i had this report i did not trust the information that the tma provided to me whether in 2010 or afterwards daniel
00:12:21 whether in 2010 or afterwards daniel wood said in a letter dated 20th of august
00:12:23 august 2010 that there was a minor fault with the smoke vents and that the seals on the vents did not close tightly allowing smoke to seep out on higher floors above the fire
00:12:34 on higher floors above the fire this made it sound like a short-term problem
00:12:38 problem however i did not understand how a minor fault could result in heavy smoke traveling from the sixth floor to the fifteenth i thought that a defect such as this should be considered a major
00:12:49 as this should be considered a major fault
00:12:50 fault and i said as much in a letter addressed to daniel wood and robert black dated 3rd september 2011. i have now seen an email from spencer sutcliffe kensington and chelsea fire safety team
00:13:01 kensington and chelsea fire safety team leader to janice ray in which he describes the incident as a catastrophic failure of the system if we move down to paragraph 97 please on the same page
00:13:15 paragraph 97 please on the same page he says this in a letter to my wife's solicitors dated 14th of april 2011 rbkc admitted quotes on the date of the fire for which we are concerned
00:13:26 fire for which we are concerned the fire detection system which was in place at grenfell tower was defective close quotes i knew from this that the system was faulty and i was never told that it was working
00:13:37 and i was never told that it was working again
00:13:40 again can we then please turn to page 30 in this same supplemental statement
00:13:47 it is the case that gtla's correspondence with the tmo about the aov system the smoke vent system
00:13:54 system spanned a significant period of time in this statement his supplemental statement
00:14:00 statement as we see at paragraph or item perhaps 14 mr ahmed was asked the tmo's response to a gtla complaint in january 2015 that the system had not
00:14:11 in january 2015 that the system had not been replaced and peter madison uh told gtla that the system was beyond economic repair that's something that we will be examining in the documents
00:14:24 examining in the documents uh later on in this module uh mr ahmed was asked
00:14:28 was asked uh the question at 14a on the screen what did you understand peter madison to mean when he said the system was beyond economic repair
00:14:39 the system was beyond economic repair and his answer at paragraph 101 was this i understood this to mean that the system needed immediate replacement my experience was that it was very rare
00:14:50 my experience was that it was very rare for peter madison to admit that anything was wrong or was the tmo's fault so if he admitted this it must be serious
00:14:58 serious at 100 paragraph 102 mr ahmed continues the smoke vents was situated only meters from my front door and after the fire in 2010 i was
00:15:09 and after the fire in 2010 i was constantly worried about it and it gave me many sleepless nights the aov
00:15:14 aov system was part of the health and safety equipment
00:15:17 equipment i cannot understand how anyone with a sense of responsibility and with the duty of care could possibly leave it unattended or in disrepair for a period of five years
00:15:31 the next topic is front doors to leasehold flats
00:15:37 and if we go to his uh his phase two statement iws four zero is one three three five page 54 please
00:15:50 i should just particularly identify paragraph 160 on that page where mr ahmed says that he was concerned about communal doors not being fire-rated or self-closing
00:16:01 fire-rated or self-closing and says that nobody paid any attention to the to that and he makes that observation in relation to tmo health and safety committee minutes not in relation to gtla actions
00:16:15 not in relation to gtla actions if we go please to page 33 of this statement
00:16:21 beginning at paragraph 190 under the heading
00:16:24 heading leaseholder doors and going on to paragraph 105 at page 37 some four pages later that contains his discussion of the
00:16:35 that contains his discussion of the issue of front doors of flats owned by leaseholders if we go back to paragraph 90 on page 33
00:16:46 if we go back to paragraph 90 on page 33 he says this fire rated flat doors were a big concern for leaseholders because there was so much uncertainty as to whether we needed to replace our doors and whether we might be prosecuted
00:16:58 doors and whether we might be prosecuted if we failed to do so and at paragraph 193 on page 34 he says this
00:17:10 he says this on the 13th of june 2011 gtla wrote to abby acosta kctma project manager of assets investment and engineering in reference to a letter regarding the dole replacement program
00:17:22 replacement program this letter was sent by kctmo to the tenants of grenfell tower but not to the leaseholders it stated that quotes following our recent fire risk assessment surveys it has been identified that your door requires upgrading
00:17:33 requires upgrading to meet our current standards close quotes
00:17:37 quotes the gtla was concerned that the leaseholder doors would also need replacing
00:17:41 replacing in order to meet standards
00:17:45 and at page 35 we can turn the page piece and go to paragraph 100 at the bottom of the page mr ahmed continues on 11th of october
00:17:56 mr ahmed continues on 11th of october 2012
00:17:57 2012 i and other leaseholders received a letter from kctmo regarding flat entry doors
00:18:02 doors this explained that my flat entrance door was demised to me and that it was therefore my responsibility to ensure my flat entrance door was fully compliant with fire safety regulations
00:18:13 fire safety regulations we were told that we may be required to provide evidence that our doors were compliant and that legal proceedings will be taken against you if your flat entrance door does not meet the standards described above they then followed further
00:18:26 above they then followed further correspondence but if we jump forward a little bit to paragraph 104 on page 36 the next page we see what he says there
00:18:37 says there on 13th february 2013 we received confirmation from paul dunkerton that the doors currently installed provide sufficient fire resistance this was eight months after the gtla made in an inquiry to kc tmo
00:18:50 made in an inquiry to kc tmo regarding leaseholder doors had we been told immediately that all our doors were compliant
00:18:55 compliant we would have been spared months of worry and anxiety continuing at paragraph 105 he says in janus ray's witness statement at paragraph 28 she says
00:19:06 paragraph 28 she says if a leaseholder requested their door be assessed and were willing to provide access
00:19:11 access we would instruct carl stokes to attend inspect and complete a report on the compliance of that particular flat door and the leaseholder was provided with a copy closed quotes
00:19:23 provided with a copy closed quotes is not available
00:19:40 can i go please in the same statement to paragraph
00:19:44 paragraph 136 on page 46
00:19:50 we can see here that mr ahmed says this gtla was very concerned
00:19:59 about by the fire safety risk we obtained a copy of the fire risk assessment from 20 to november 2012 which indicated failures with regard to testing and maintenance
00:20:10 testing and maintenance carl stokes fire risk assessor observed that he had not seen test certificates to confirm regular checks on the emergency lighting and fire alarm systems the dry riser firefighter lifts and hose reels the assessment noted that
00:20:23 and hose reels the assessment noted that quotes there have been no fires in this building
00:20:26 building within the last two years there was a minor arson incident in july 2010 nobody was hurt close quotes if this is referring to the fire on 30th of april 2010 then there is a
00:20:37 on 30th of april 2010 then there is a clear inconsistency with the lfb report which recorded three people as injured we can cross refer this evidence to a question which the inquiry asked mr
00:20:50 to a question which the inquiry asked mr ahmed
00:20:51 ahmed to address in his supplemental statement and which we can see at paragraph 110 and that is at
00:20:59 iws402369 the supplemental statement at page 33
00:21:09 the question just above paragraph 110 is were you aware that fire risk assessors carried out fire risk assessments of the tower at
00:21:20 fire risk assessments of the tower at regular intervals and mr ahmed's response is a paragraph 111
00:21:26 111 110 he says yeah i did not know that this was a regular assessment despite all the emails i sent over the years about fire safety the tmo did not think to tell me that there were regular fire risk assessments at grenfell tower
00:21:38 assessments at grenfell tower and then the next question were you aware that as a resident you could request a copy of the fire risk assessment for the building
00:21:46 building i was not aware that i had a right to request an fra and no one ever told me this the 2012 fra that i did obtain stated exactly the opposite
00:21:56 opposite you do not have to give a copy of your risk assessment to anybody not even the fire authority if you do give them a copy this could be used against you at a later date
00:22:08 later date that is a quotation from the 2012 fra
00:22:14 and the panel will note uh paragraph 112 a little bit lower down which answers the inquiries question how did gtla obtain a copy of the 2012 fire risk assessment referred to
00:22:26 fire risk assessment referred to a paragraph 136 of your phase 2 statement answer at paragraph 112 francis o'connor sent me a copy of this fra by email i don't know how francis obtained it
00:22:37 i don't know how francis obtained it personally but possibly it was by an foi request he was very good
00:22:42 good at that sort of thing next lifts can we go back to the phase two statement that page 51 please
00:22:53 please and let's look in that at paragraph 151
00:23:05 he says this i now turn to the lifts gtla had complained about the lifts on numerous occasions the lifts used to be out of order almost every week and people used to get stuck in there all the time
00:23:16 in there all the time i got stuck in there once although i don't remember the exact details there is an alarm inside the lift for when you get stuck i think i pressed it and it took a long time for someone to open the door and get me out
00:23:27 get me out in the email to councillor blakeman and others dated 29th september 2016 i referred to the fact the lifts were replaced in 2005. i suggested that the overuse and misuse
00:23:39 i suggested that the overuse and misuse of the lifts by ryden during the refurbishment was the cause of the current breakdown and malfunctions the lifts were on their last legs despite only being replaced ten years previously
00:23:51 previously i recall having to pay about five thousand pounds in service charges when they were last replaced in about 2005.
00:23:59 2005. the lifts were malfunctioning and breaking down all the time in the period immediately before the fire
00:24:07 he then gives evidence about the tenant handbook
00:24:13 and i would just cross refer here to the third statement of janice jones at tm0090052 where she says that the stockpile
00:24:23 stockpile of residence handbooks ran out in 2008 or 2009
00:24:28 or 2009 and that's paragraphs 22 and paragraph 9.
00:24:32 9. mr ahmed says this on this page at paragraph 155 if we scroll down please
00:24:41 he says there was a lack of information and communication with kctmo one particular issue one particular issue that i complained about on a number of occasions was that there was no tenant's handbook
00:24:53 was that there was no tenant's handbook in actual fact it goes on to say in actual fact there wasn't one and then he continues at paragraph 156.
00:25:04 and then he continues at paragraph 156. on the 6th of october 2016 i emailed millicent williams kctmo's neighborhood officer
00:25:10 officer asking for a copy of the tenant's handbook her response dated 24th of october 2016 was that she was unable to provide me with a copy of the handbook because it was under review and that it should be available for distribution in
00:25:22 should be available for distribution in early 2017. i emailed back on 6 november expressing my surprise and asking why they didn't have such a handbook and how they could manage thousands of homes without one millicent williams emailed back on 23rd
00:25:34 millicent williams emailed back on 23rd of november saying she would speak to the leasehold team however i never received a response and as far as i'm aware there was no tenants handbook
00:25:42 handbook at the time of the fire in june 2017 contrary to what robert black says in his witness statement the paragraph 174
00:25:51 the next topic is gas supply another issue that the gtla raised as we've heard from mr chapman who gave evidence was that of gas pipe installation mr ahmed
00:26:02 that of gas pipe installation mr ahmed addresses this topic at paragraphs 166 to 209 in his phase 2 statement at pages 56 to 73 respectively
00:26:13 56 to 73 respectively can we go to the phase 2 statement please which is this one on the page and go to page 56 three pages on and let's look at paragraph 166 under the heading concerns about fire
00:26:24 under the heading concerns about fire safety gas supply he says after the regeneration project was completed i moved back into grenfell tower in april 2016. it wasn't long before my safety fears came back in march 2017 i became
00:26:37 came back in march 2017 i became concerned about an exposed gas pipe being installed through the main staircase and asked the tmo for proof that it had a health and safety certificate the tma would only tell me that they had limited control over
00:26:49 that they had limited control over national grid who were installing the gas pipe
00:26:52 gas pipe and i got the impression that without my complaint they would not even have realized there might be a problem i did not know whether the pipe was made safe by the time of the fire but i do know that the tma refused my
00:27:03 but i do know that the tma refused my requests to appoint an independent health and safety expert to investigate the safety risks in the building
00:27:10 building i can hardly believe that the tmo was so dismissive of residents worries about fire safety in the weeks and months before the fire on 14th june 2017
00:27:23 mr ahmed also discusses in his statement the efforts made by gtla to obtain an independent inspection of the gas pipe installation that's a paragraph uh page 62
00:27:34 that's a paragraph uh page 62 and if we can go to paragraph 180 on page 62 please he starts by saying this in an email dated
00:27:45 starts by saying this in an email dated 28 march 2017 sasha jevons again refused to assist with hiring an independent inspector the tmo knew very well that the residents could not afford to hire an independent expert without assistance
00:27:58 independent expert without assistance we were completely reliant on the tmo's good will
00:28:01 good will because they would and because they would not seek an outside opinion we only had
00:28:05 only had whatever they told us which we did not trust in fact i did ask gtla members if they would fund an audit of grenfell tower by a health and safety expert but not surprisingly they were not prepared to pay for the costs
00:28:16 were not prepared to pay for the costs of this
00:28:18 of this and mr ahmed then continues in that paragraph and over the next few paragraphs to explain how gtla reported its concerns to rbkc and the tmo and its board
00:28:29 to rbkc and the tmo and its board if we can go to page 70 we can pick this topic up at paragraph 203 and there we see that mr ahmed says this
00:28:39 this i told everyone i could think of regarding my concerns including rbkc councillors councillors in other areas who were part of the tri borough group ring rbkc officers and tmo officers
00:28:50 rbkc officers and tmo officers and even victoria boric mp councillor marshall and even judith blakeman had reservations about why i was sending these emails to so many recipients i was doing so out of frustration
00:29:02 i was doing so out of frustration because it was abundantly clear to me that just emailing the tmo would do no good i was also concerned that the tmo had a free hand to do whatever they liked so i was hoping to find someone
00:29:13 hoping to find someone who could force them to take action
00:29:18 we then come to the topic of individual complaints mr ahmed in his statement has also dealt with a number of complaints in relation to his own home he deals
00:29:29 in relation to his own home he deals with
00:29:29 with those at paragraphs 210 to 216 on pages 73 to 75 of this his phase 2 statements it's useful to read two particular paragraphs from that
00:29:41 read two particular paragraphs from that section
00:29:42 section can we please go to page 73 in this same statement
00:29:47 statement and look at paragraph 210 he says this as well as my work on behalf of gtla there were many occasions when i needed to complain to at kctmo and ryden about issues in my own flat when we
00:29:59 about issues in my own flat when we bought the flat in 1999 it was still largely in its original condition the front door windows and internal doors were all as far as i'm aware the original ones i got the same response with regards to
00:30:11 i got the same response with regards to my own flat as when i complained on behalf of the of gtla the tma would reply late or not at all
00:30:18 at all pass me around various members of staff and often found no effective solution the real problem with grenfell tower was not the age or state of the building it was the attitude of rbkc and the tmo
00:30:29 it was the attitude of rbkc and the tmo and then at paragraph 212
00:30:34 he says there was a tmo out of our service
00:30:38 service but it was not very helpful when there was a problem such as no running water there was an out of hours number that residents could call they always asked if it was a problem in the whole building because if it was just my flat
00:30:49 just my flat then i would have to deal with it myself i would always get the response that i was the first person to call this is a tactic that the tma used every time i called the out of hours service
00:31:01 finally mr chairman i want to refer to the topic of consultation can we go in this statement back to page 23 please
00:31:12 and let's look at paragraphs 59 to 60. 59 is a long paragraph and in it mr ahmed says that he was
00:31:23 and in it mr ahmed says that he was frustrated that there was not more resident consultation one of the questions that the inquiry asked mr ahmed to address in his supplemental statement is whether he or the gtla
00:31:33 the gtla were ever asked to join a residence group or committee to represent residents interests during the refurbishment and if we look at the supplemental statement
00:31:44 i should just i should just uh show paragraph 60 of this statement before i leave
00:31:54 this statement to go to the supplemental paragraph 60 it's important to read this out i think i felt that the meetings and newsletters were a pr exercise and the tmo had no real interest in what
00:32:05 the tmo had no real interest in what residents wanted it was also disappointing that the start of building work kept being pushed back when the work did eventually begin and after it was completed i was still exchanging emails with members of the
00:32:16 exchanging emails with members of the tmo to sort out issues such as the location of the hiu and my windows the whole process was stressful and ultimately disappointing now if we go then to the supplemental statement
00:32:28 iws402369 page 16.
00:32:34 we see mr ahmed's response paragraph 59 to the question about residence groups or committees and he says this i was not invited to join such a group
00:32:45 i was not invited to join such a group or committee during the refurbishment either in a personal capacity or as the chair of gtla from the witness statements and documents that have been disclosed by the tmo
00:32:54 the tmo it is clear to me now that i was deliberately excluded from the consultation process
00:33:01 mr chairman that is all i propose to read from mr ahmed's phase two statements as the panel will appreciate he has provided a very lengthy phase two
00:33:12 he has provided a very lengthy phase two statement
00:33:12 statement and a supplemental statement answering the inquiry's specific questions can i repeat at the end now what i
00:33:20 what i said at the beginning and that is that the inquiry would like to express its deep thanks to mr ahmed for the time that he has devoted to the preparation of both of these detailed
00:33:31 detailed and clear statements which has deeply informed
00:33:34 informed our understanding of the module three issues
00:33:38 issues yes well thank you very much mr militant as you say we have the uh the statements provided by mr ahmed and also
00:33:46 and also uh the documents that he's exhibited which of course we shall consider very carefully when we come to make any findings
00:33:54 findings i'm very grateful mr chairman thank you mr chairman i'm now going to leave the lectern and turn it over to mr kenya for him to examine the next witnesses
00:34:05 witnesses i think there needs to be a short break while there is a yes perhaps we don't need to
00:34:10 need to retire while that happens you don't no very well we'll sit here and uh just wait for that to happen thank you
00:34:32 uh
00:34:39 [Music] sir panel members good morning um may i call mr david noble yes thank you
00:35:45 i think he's on his way mr clear thanks
00:35:56 sir
00:36:11 good morning mr naval morning i understand you're happy to make an affirmation yeah so you should have the words on the screen in front of you could you read them out please i do solemnly sincerely and truly
00:36:22 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give should be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth yeah thank you very much no do sit down make yourself comfortable thank you
00:36:32 yes thanks thank you first of all would you mind confirming your name yes david noble
00:36:37 noble thank you very much for coming to give evidence today to assist inquirers much appreciated my questions are intended to be short and simple but if you have difficulty understanding anything i have to say
00:36:48 anything i have to say please say so and i'll rephrase it or repeat it
00:36:52 repeat it also would you mind keeping your voice up without giving evidence it's so the transcribers have a clear account of what you say now you have provided three statements for the inquiry is that right
00:37:04 for the inquiry is that right yeah and uh we will refer to the scrape statements which will appear on the screen in front of you the first one is dated the 14th of december 2018 which is at tmo quintuple zero
00:37:18 which is at tmo quintuple zero double eight four
00:37:21 the second statement is dated the 6th of march 2020 which is at tm00869 574
00:37:33 and the third and final one is dated the 24th of february 2021 which is at tmo double zero eight double nine double six nine
00:37:46 have you read all of those statements recently yes and can you confirm the content of each of those statements is true to the best of your knowledge and belief it is yeah thank you
00:37:57 and belief it is yeah thank you now first of all mr noble may i ask you questions about your role at the tmo yeah and if we go back to your
00:38:03 your first statement which is at tmo quintuple zero double eight four forward slash one and a paragraph three you say there i
00:38:14 and a paragraph three you say there i was initially employed by tmo in the role of equality and diversity officer then as a policy and diversity advisor the latter role covered policy work including matters such as worklessness
00:38:25 such as worklessness my policy advice was relevant to residents not staff can you explain what your job at the tmo
00:38:32 the tmo entailed on a day-to-day basis first of all
00:38:35 all there was never really consistent jobs the same day today so but it would be advising parts of the business on a range of matters related to equality and
00:38:46 matters related to equality and diversity
00:38:47 diversity work also things like worklessness that sort of thing um generally i would be helping out across
00:38:54 across did a lot of work with the resident engagement team helping out with bits and pieces helping out with with the policy work for my manager and all sorts of various things so nothing ever consistent
00:39:06 ever consistent not i didn't have a day-to-day do this this time this time this time um so it was quite a varied role but predominantly it was an advisory role that that part of it really was about providing advice
00:39:17 about providing advice thank you when you say that your policy advice was relevant to quotes resident not staff close quotes what do you mean by that i mean i wasn't i wasn't advising the hr department on
00:39:28 i wasn't advising the hr department on equality and diversity issues related to the staff it was related it was in terms of
00:39:33 of the delivery of the service to the residents
00:39:36 residents and what training on equality and diversity did you receive for your role at the tmo whilst i was at the tmo i think i probably had it i don't know that i did any specific end related
00:39:48 that i did any specific end related courses
00:39:49 courses there but i had several years of experience doing quality diversity work before i
00:39:55 before i when you say several years how many i think it was about 10. thank you now if we can now turn to look at the equality and diversity training that was provided during your time at
00:40:07 that was provided during your time at the tmo
00:40:08 the tmo and first of all could i ask you to look at tm00878673
00:40:20 now this is a powerpoint presentation entitled equality and diversity and it bears your name there first of all did you prepare this presentation yes how often did you provide
00:40:32 yes how often did you provide this type of training to tmo staff this was as part of the induction process so for new members of staff
00:40:39 staff we would do it
00:40:42 maybe up to three or four times a year
00:40:47 and was there an intention that all members of staff would receive this training not necessarily excuse me not necessarily this training and who would receive this training so this was film new starters
00:40:59 this was film new starters thank you now can i turn to a separate document
00:41:02 document which is a tmo board meeting paper from the 15th of september 2011 and that can be found at tm00848055
00:41:18 now there's the front paper if we could turn to page 26
00:41:25 that is the cover page for agenda item 4 which was a quality and diversity paper which was presented to the tmo board now if we could turn
00:41:36 to the tmo board now if we could turn over the page to page 27 we can see in the bottom box that you were noted as the author of that paper was that correct yes thank you now if we
00:41:47 was that correct yes thank you now if we could move forward in this document to page 33
00:41:55 you'll see there at the bottom of the page the heading equality impact assessment and paragraph 2.6.1 says this equality impact assessments
00:42:07 says this equality impact assessments are a tool that allows us to assess whether the way we deliver a particular function or operator policy is likely to have an impact on different equality groups where a negative impact is identified we
00:42:19 where a negative impact is identified we can then put in place actions to reduce or remove the impact and if we could turn over the page 2.6.2 we will carry out an eqia on all new policies and
00:42:32 an eqia on all new policies and procedures as they are developed and review them after a year first of all what did you mean there by different equality groups so those would have been the equality
00:42:43 so those would have been the equality groups defined under the golly act so there's protective characteristics of which there are nine and what was the purpose of the equality impact assessments themselves well as i said in that
00:42:55 themselves well as i said in that previous paragraph in 261 it was about making sure that the way that we deliver our services wasn't having a negative impact on any particular group so that everybody was able to access those services and we were able to
00:43:07 those services and we were able to make sure that we were delivering those services to all groups and all residents and to what extent did the impact assessments influence the development of policies and procedures particularly in the area of
00:43:18 procedures particularly in the area of health and safety
00:43:22 um i don't know that we did i couldn't tell you for exactly whether we did them on those health and safety policies at the time um so directly not necessarily
00:43:37 um so directly not necessarily but that's not to say that those things weren't taken into account when they were drafted in the first place now who was uh who did you assume would be carrying out the impact assessments
00:43:48 be carrying out the impact assessments when you drafted this paper for the board
00:43:50 board i would assume that it would have been the person that was doing the policy so for example because they were the subject expert really on that particular area so take a particular example
00:44:01 take a particular example when looking at the fire safety strategy for example it would be the person responsible for that strategy who would carry out the equality impact assessment yes
00:44:12 after its adoption by the board were tmo employees instructed that an equality impact assessment was required for all new policies and procedures i don't remember specifically
00:44:24 procedures i don't remember specifically but i would have assumed that they were well not all employees know but those that were likely to be doing policy work or writing new policies would have been can you remember
00:44:35 would have been can you remember specifically whether the health and safety team generally or janice ray in particular were informed about the new requirement for impact assessment i can't remember that specifically
00:44:46 if people were informed would they usually have been informed in writing for example by email or would it be verbally
00:44:55 i would have thought it would probably have been verbally via so it would have this would policy would have been through would have gone up to the board via senior management team
00:45:07 so they would have known about it at that point so that's when the sort of dissemination would have started and it would have been from that level that the instruction would have been communicated down is that a fair assumption i would have
00:45:19 is that a fair assumption i would have said so yes were arrangements put in place to monitor whether impact assessments had in fact been carried out in relation to new policies and procedures
00:45:31 and procedures were supposed to be sent back to me um and certainly some were you know they they're saved in the in the in the filing system but it was always
00:45:43 filing system but it was always difficult to know centrally what new policies had been done because they didn't come so i wouldn't necessarily know that a policy had been written and therefore whether an impact assessment had or hadn't been done
00:45:54 hadn't been done how did you go about then chasing uh to ensure that impact assessments had been carried out when they were well i would like to be i mean i'd be sending out reminders
00:46:03 reminders to staff or just speaking generally to staff saying don't forget that if you've done
00:46:07 done if you've written some sort of policy or in the process of drafting a policy that you're doing in the impact assessment because really you want to do it as you're going along rather than afterwards so there were no arrangements which uh
00:46:18 so there were no arrangements which uh under which you would be notified of a new policy procedure coming down the line
00:46:22 line for you to check there was no formal arrangement i remember no i think some some departments were closer to
00:46:30 closer to my area than others so i think that was more likely to have or i've worked more closely with those people so i would have a better i would know organically as it were that they were happening but not necessarily
00:46:42 they were happening but not necessarily formally mr noble it's uh i understand there's a
00:46:45 there's a there's a temptation to give the answer immediately for the transcriber's purposes would you wait for me to finish the question sorry it's difficult for her to follow um
00:46:56 um you say you would have understood these matters organically and you had a relationship with the teams which allowed you to know what policies were coming
00:47:04 coming up would health and safety regularly routinely notify you of all the new policies and procedures that were coming up no and you would have to chase them would
00:47:16 and you would have to chase them would that be a fair appraisal um no i wouldn't said i would chase them because i didn't know that they were writing policies so i wouldn't know that they hadn't or had or hadn't done an impact assessment necessarily so the teams i was talking about being
00:47:28 so the teams i was talking about being more organic would be more of the housing management ones i think that was just
00:47:32 just the nature of where where i tended to sit or the people i would interact with or hear about rather than other some other teams looking back at paragraph 2.6.2 of the
00:47:44 looking back at paragraph 2.6.2 of the paper
00:47:45 paper it refers there in the last line of a review of new policies and procedures after a year again was that the same ad hoc process of checking up whether
00:47:56 of checking up whether the policies had been reviewed or not after a year yes now can we turn to a separate document which is tmo20854587
00:48:15 now there was a meeting of the executive team on the 25th of january 2012 and if we could turn to page three
00:48:27 where we should see item three in the bottom part of that page under the heading
00:48:31 heading equality impact assessments now it's minuted there that you attended and it was noted that you would provide guidance on when equality impact assessments were
00:48:42 equality impact assessments were acquired and how they would be carried out
00:48:45 out first of all did you do that did you provide that guidance i believe so yeah and did you reduce that guidance into a document or again was it verbal instruction oh there would have been a document
00:48:58 and how was that document communicated to relevant staff who were preparing policies that would be subject to an impact assessment it would have been sent to smt
00:49:11 it would have been sent to smt and i would have expected them to disseminate it down possibly would have taken it to managers forum but i think at the top of this document it said that managers forum existed by this point
00:49:22 existed by this point so managers forum was a sort of level below that below smt where a lot of those sorts of people would have been so it may well have been discussed there as well did you raise at this time the need for
00:49:34 did you raise at this time the need for or the advantages of a process why whereby you received proactive notification of new policies that would be developed that would have to be subject to an equality impact assessment yeah that's
00:49:45 equality impact assessment yeah that's some of the sorts of things that we were trying to develop better at that managers forum level is to
00:49:51 to for people to say what it was that they were actually working on at the moment so that would sort of help to give me an idea about that sort of stuff but again i it's difficult to know whether people would always tell me that
00:50:03 whether people would always tell me that is it fair to say that those processes never became crystallized into formal arrangements they were never as formal as i would have wanted them to be certainly
00:50:12 certainly now could we turn to the fire safety strategy
00:50:15 strategy and first of all could i ask us to go to an email exchange which can be found at cst
00:50:23 cst quadruple zero four zero double four
00:50:32 and we see there an email from you on the 21st of november 2011 to the executive team et and the senior management team
00:50:43 management team smt to advise them that in your view the public sector equality duty would apply to the tmo as they were carrying out work of a public nature
00:50:54 carrying out work of a public nature first of all was the advice you gave in that email accepted uh as i recall yes to the best of your knowledge did the tmo review or modify
00:51:06 tmo review or modify the fire safety strategy in light of your advice on the public sector equality duty i don't know
00:51:17 can you remember any changes in relation to health and safety matters that were made following your advice regarding the public sector equality duty
00:51:28 duty not that i remember no now if we can go to the top of this present page
00:51:37 page we can see that your briefing was forwarded to janice ray who in turn forwarded to
00:51:46 mr stokes now following your email of the 21st november 2011 did janice ray seek your advice about the public sector equality duty and its impact on the performance of the
00:51:58 and its impact on the performance of the tmo's fire safety duties i don't recall do you recall any time after november 2011 where janice ray asked for your advice on that subject and how it touched upon or affected
00:52:10 and how it touched upon or affected health and safety duties not the equality duty specifically no not that i remember so no specifics spring to mind no in november 2013 a fire safety strategy
00:52:22 in november 2013 a fire safety strategy was prepared by janet ray which we can find at tm00830598
00:52:36 now first of all have you seen that document before mr noble
00:52:42 i don't remember it even if you hadn't seen it were you aware that a new fire safety strategy had been prepared in november 2013
00:52:54 i was aware that there was a fire safety strategy i couldn't remember at this point now whether when i knew that it existed or whether i knew it changed um as it was a new um policy or
00:53:06 um as it was a new um policy or procedure would you agree that it required
00:53:08 required an equality impact assessment yes can you remember ever seeing an impact assessment being provided in relation to this strategy no um would you accept that an
00:53:22 no um would you accept that an impact assessment of the fire safety strategy would require an assessment of that strategy's potential impact on disabled residents or other residents with a protected characteristic yes
00:53:43 characteristic yes an assessment had been carried out who would you have been who would you expect to have been the author of that assessment i would have thought that would have been janice
00:53:54 or possibly her line manager whoever that was at the time but probably john it's assuming that janice wrote it
00:54:02 but before we leave this you have no recollection of ever seeing an equality impact assessment in relation to this strategy
00:54:07 strategy i don't remember one no do you remember chasing for one no as in no i don't i don't remember chasing for one rather than i don't not remember
00:54:16 remember thank you can i now move on to a separate topic mr noble and that's in relation to data and information collection now if we could go back to your second statement which is at tm00869574
00:54:33 statement which is at tm00869574 forward slash one paragraph four and fourth line from the bottom you explain that you're able to obtain
00:54:44 you explain that you're able to obtain information about residents in occupation at grenfell tower as you were aware of how to extract resident data now did you yourself collect that data on residence
00:54:55 on residence no who did neighborhood offices mainly it came in from a variety of sources so it would have been uh collected at sign up so when a new resident came in it would have been included there
00:55:07 included there um there were various door knocking exercises where we went out to try and get it residents would sometimes actually tell you what tell you these sorts of changes so they came from a variety of different sources but generally it would have gone
00:55:19 sources but generally it would have gone through the neighborhood offices because they were the ones who were in closest contact with with the residents and so there are three potential sources there of collation of information first of all a sign up yeah and
00:55:30 first of all a sign up yeah and presumably that would have been the most useful time to get as much information as possible about residents and particularly whether they had a protected characteristic i think that's probably the most reliable time to get it yes
00:55:41 time to get it yes the second source you referred to there was door knocking exercises and you mentioned that they were regular can you assist with the regular might not be the right word they were there were more than one there
00:55:52 they were there were more than one there were several of them during your time there yes okay can you give the panel some assistance on say in relation to grenfell
00:56:00 grenfell how often those door knocking exercises would be carried out oh i would have thought probably two or three times in terms of a year or during your time
00:56:13 in terms of a year or during your time my time there those that's talking about in terms of where we had a
00:56:18 we had a specific uh corporate drive on to do that sort of so we were going across the estate the tmo stock to try and improve data and plug gaps um whether the
00:56:30 and plug gaps um whether the neighborhood officers also did that sort of stuff on a more regular basis locally i don't know it's possible i do i wouldn't know okay and so you started the tmo in march 2011
00:56:41 2011 yeah and so there would have been two or three of those door knocking exercises that you're aware of between march 2011 and june 2017. there had there had been one i just finished before i started
00:56:52 one i just finished before i started i think it was sort of still they were still sort of doing the last bits of that
00:56:56 that around then so late 2010 and then there was another couple i can remember off the top of my head now if we can now look at the
00:57:08 now if we can now look at the arrangements for collecting data before june 2014 in slightly more detail
00:57:17 how would you provide diversity and equality advice the tmo without detailed reliable knowledge of the constitution and makeup of residents
00:57:28 constitution and makeup of residents within
00:57:29 within and living in the tmos estate it's difficult
00:57:33 difficult definitely you try and you have to try and be broad about about that sort of thing
00:57:38 thing you also look at census information that will give you sort of some demographic offers because obviously that can go down quite to quite a low level toward level and and lower
00:57:48 and lower um so you you can get a feel for that you'd work with the council and see what data that they might have as well um so there was a range be to get 100 accurate data would be
00:57:59 accurate data would be very very difficult can we just look at the first element of there you said that you have to take essentially a broad view of these
00:58:10 essentially a broad view of these matters what particular factors would inform
00:58:14 inform that broad view first of all well the data that you have got whatever however much of a sign up from sign up or yeah that's historic or whatever you'd happened to have and that would the
00:58:26 happened to have and that would the the quality of that would vary from area to area
00:58:29 to area um so so there's always so there's that's a key element to it because that's actually some fairly solid data but yes you'd try and supplement that with some broad sort of census related
00:58:41 with some broad sort of census related area specific stuff that i wouldn't wouldn't necessarily be building specific like grenfell tower specifically but it might be the the ward and looking at the census information can
00:58:52 looking at the census information can you give the panel an idea of the level of detail that you had been able to extract presumably from the 2011 census in relation to protected characteristics of residents yes so the 2011 census data i
00:59:03 residents yes so the 2011 census data i guess was broadly available in about 2012
00:59:07 2012 uh 22 2013 maybe um so and that would go down to at least ward level i think it went down lower than that i can't remember what i was called super output areas possibly which is sort of dividing the ward into about
00:59:19 is sort of dividing the ward into about four something like that so you you could have some quite detailed information for that but again the census isn't 100 accurate you don't get 100 returns on the census either even though you're supposed to
00:59:30 either even though you're supposed to so getting the information from people is always difficult so then you're looking at you know also things like well what support groups are there in the area are there any community associations because that's a
00:59:41 community associations because that's a fair indicator that there's a reasonably sized population in that area so
00:59:47 so community groups and those sorts of volunteer
00:59:50 volunteer sector organizations that might be around
00:59:54 around would also give you some clue as to whether there's a particular demographic in that area that you that you might want to try and connect with or ought to be taking into account but am i right and assuming and please
01:00:06 but am i right and assuming and please shout
01:00:06 shout if this isn't right that the census information wouldn't give you granular detail for example that a resident in flat had the following impairments or
01:00:17 had the following impairments or vulnerabilities or disabilities no no no it's it's it doesn't go down anywhere near that low were you familiar with the tp tracker
01:00:29 were you familiar with the tp tracker yeah broadly yes and would you be able to give a broad steer to the panel as to what the tp tracker was and what it did
01:00:41 it's one of those phrases that's in my head and i'm trying to remember what it actually did it was it was a piece of software that was brought before i joined and never really i don't think many staff
01:00:52 never really i don't think many staff really liked it i think they found it a little cumbersome to use but i think it was intended to hold information about residents interests
01:01:00 interests in participation i think the tp is tenant participation so residents interest in being involved in particular groups like committees or residence associations or whatever
01:01:13 residence associations or whatever those sorts of things i think that's where that information was supposed to be held and i think that was generally acquired from that data gathering exercise that i mentioned in that happened in 2010 so i think
01:01:25 that happened in 2010 so i think that they were trying to gather information from residents of what they would be interested in doing and that also included some demographic information did you use the tp tracker yourself for your work no
01:01:36 your work no and why not it because it was mainly around resident um resident engagement related work and that sort of stuff so that would have been related to their team the equality and diversity data that
01:01:47 the equality and diversity data that came from that process uh was recorded i think was also pulled out from there and recorded into the main as a management system
01:01:58 the main as a management system understood now keeping on the theme of resident engagement um could we now go to document tmo zero eight five double one five zero
01:02:14 and as your title shows there's a resident engagement team briefing on the 6th of may 2014 and if we could go to page 3 and item 4.1 which is midway down the
01:02:26 and item 4.1 which is midway down the page
01:02:27 page slightly below midway your record your dn reported that e.t so the executive team had agreed the process for data collection a temporary officer had been appointed
01:02:39 a temporary officer had been appointed to update details on w-2 tmo were looking to arrange door knocking for every tenanted property questionnaire would include ethnicity income children other family members
01:02:50 income children other family members details date of birth of everyone residing in the property etc questionnaire would take up to 30 minutes
01:02:57 minutes this would be a rolling program now is that a fair summary of the tmo's processes for collecting information as at may 2014 so that would have been the process
01:03:08 the process for getting information other than from sign up
01:03:12 sign up yes and if we could look in particular at the questionnaire and if i could ask that i w s quadruple zero one double seven eight
01:03:26 quadruple zero one double seven eight be brought up
01:03:39 thank you and if we could first of all that is the front page of the questionnaire and if we could turn to page two
01:03:49 and if you just confirm for me is that an example of the questionnaire that you're referring to in the meeting on or the briefing rather on the 6th of may 2014 yeah thank you first of all who
01:04:01 yeah thank you first of all who prepared the template for the questionnaire me and a few other people from around the business so i did the the call it in diversity related bits
01:04:12 the call it in diversity related bits um as i remember there's a lot of other questions in there about various different things so people from around the business would have put in what they wanted to go in there i think i actually physically assembled it or
01:04:24 actually physically assembled it or designed it in in so to use the pompous lawyer's phrase you held the pen did you yes i suppose but i i not in the sense of because i'm not
01:04:35 not in the sense of because i'm not entirely sure what that phrase means um you're in charge of maintaining i was the draft uh yeah i was responsible for putting to putting in what people
01:04:47 for putting to putting in what people wanted to put in i wasn't taking an editorial approach in terms of saying or not necessarily taking an editorial saying you can't put that in i might have said do you really need that i know the only reason i'd have asked
01:04:58 i know the only reason i'd have asked that is because it's making the paging wrong
01:05:01 wrong or it's everything's getting a practical form from a practical formatting perspective of it is saying well do you really need all of those questions can we trim that down a bit did the others from around the business with whom
01:05:12 whom you worked on this include the health and safety team i don't remember i would have remembered is that don't remember inclining to no or is it simply i don't remember i mean i remember that neighborhood
01:05:23 i mean i remember that neighborhood office or the neighborhood management people would have certainly asked for things to go in and probably resident engagement i don't remember
01:05:30 remember health and safety asking and they're asking for questions to go into that might i ask us to go to page 10 and in particular questions 14 and 15.
01:05:44 and you see that at the top of the page section d about you and your needs and the two questions here
01:05:51 here are directed to whether asking whether a resident has a disability and a definition is provided there underneath question 15 and it says this a person
01:06:02 question 15 and it says this a person has a disability if they have a physical or mental impairment and the impairment has a substantial and long-term adverse effect on their ability to carry out normal day-to-day activities and underneath that you'll see three
01:06:15 and underneath that you'll see three boxes down on the left hand side there's an offer to make a referral to a support agency now first question arising out of this
01:06:26 this is can you remember and apologies it may seem an obvious question but why were residents
01:06:31 residents asked about whether they had a disability or not well as you were saying earlier um knowing who your residents are helps you deliver better services to them so
01:06:42 deliver better services to them so understanding what disabilities people may have isn't is important to understanding whether you need to tailor your service to to those to them so that they can receive it
01:06:53 to them so that they can receive it effectively um so that's that's the main reason for asking that can you help us know why residents who reported a disability um weren't offered the opportunity to be
01:07:05 um weren't offered the opportunity to be referred by the health and safety team for a personal emergency evacuation plan i can't remember are you familiar with the term peep yes um is there any reason
01:07:18 yes um is there any reason why such a an offer could not have been included in this questionnaire it could have been included yes
01:07:27 do you remember any discussion about whether that particular offer ought to be included within its question don't remember that discussion i don't remember whether when
01:07:39 i don't remember whether when disabled people were identified whether there was a process to inform health and safety about it there may have been i don't recall was there any discussion about that question not that i remember do you remember any discussion
01:07:51 remember any discussion which involved peeps at all in relation to this questionnaire
01:07:58 not that i recall no
01:08:02 were you responsible for uploading the information from completed questionnaires onto the system no who was uh so i think in the previous minute it
01:08:13 i think in the previous minute it mentioned that they'd been appointed a temporary contemporary officer to do it so that was their function but they did report to me and as a result of the data collected from these questionnaires did you
01:08:25 from these questionnaires did you consider that there'd been a an improvement in the detail and accuracy of the information you held regarding the needs of residents in the tmo stock
01:08:35 tmo stock i seem to remember that that i felt that it improved yes i can't remember the levels at this point but yes it got better
01:08:43 better and did that improved detail and accuracy
01:08:47 accuracy prompt or inform any later discussion about whether peeps ought to be offered to disabled residents or residents with some impairment i remember that there were discussions
01:08:58 remember that there were discussions about
01:08:58 about peeps and how residents would get them but i can't remember when that was and certainly not in relation to whether it was before or after this can you remember whether following the
01:09:10 can you remember whether following the publication the questionnaires any training or guidance was given to staff about when to make referrals to the health and safety team for peeps i don't remember no
01:09:23 for peeps i don't remember no can we now turn to a separate document which is tm00851268
01:09:36 uh now these are minutes of a housing department monthly team meeting and it's a meeting held on the 5th of june 2014
01:09:43 june 2014 and if we could go to page six and item 8.0 now you'll see tennessee checks and profiling
01:09:51 profiling update there and if i could ask you to look at 8.2 and 8.3 8.2 says there's tb who's teresa brown i think yeah
01:10:02 brown i think yeah and david noble excuse me took a report to
01:10:05 to executive team on proposals to improve uh profiling information on tenants to enable the tmo to adapt its service to meet the needs of its customers 8.3 it has been agreed that as there are
01:10:17 8.3 it has been agreed that as there are huge gaps in the information currently stored
01:10:20 stored this project will start from the beginning profile information will be collected through home visits and we will also take the opportunity to carry out a tenancy check at the same time what were the needs of
01:10:32 at the same time what were the needs of its customers to which the tmos service required adaptation well it could be a range of things depending on on on the resident so in terms of the language access to
01:10:44 language access to translation and interpretation access physical access to buildings uh whether residents
01:10:51 residents would want to come in rather than us go to them or would prefer us to go to them what times of day that might suit them um a whole range of different things potentially that it could be you mentioned that access to a building
01:11:04 you mentioned that access to a building uh
01:11:04 uh was there any consideration of how tenants for example would evacuate a building in the event of an emergency for example a fire in relation to this yes no not that i would no that wasn't
01:11:16 yes no not that i would no that wasn't really the scope of it that would have been
01:11:18 been carried out it was part of fire safety state health and safety processes it wasn't that wasn't the function of this document
01:11:26 document you've possibly touched upon this in earlier answers but what were the huge gaps referred to at para 8.3 here uh it would have been
01:11:37 at para 8.3 here uh it would have been issues it would have been gaps around ethnicity information probably and possibly gender information as well potentially difficult potentially gaps around disability information but it's
01:11:48 around disability information but it's difficult to know where that gap exists because everybody has a gender and an ethnicity so you know if you don't have 100 data on that but you don't know necessarily whether you've got
01:11:58 got 100 information about somebody's disabilities days because if they don't have a disability they don't generally tell you
01:12:04 tell you and what profiling information did you intend to collate so that would have been information on ethnicity gender disability age um
01:12:15 age um sexual orientation religion possibly i can't remember they would have been whatever questions were on that question questionnaire was there any government guidance available to assist you
01:12:27 available to assist you to understand what information to collect
01:12:30 collect from whom and in what detail uh there would have been yes it would have changed as the government changed
01:12:40 changed from 2010 i can't remember excuse me the detail of that
01:12:48 but it came from the equality commission produced
01:12:51 produced documentation on that did did they that did that advice and guidance did it inform the approach you took to the substance of the exercise and collating the profile information
01:13:03 collating the profile information yes it would have done as well as what other organizations were doing so we would have looked around at what other housing
01:13:09 housing associations were doing and what information they were collecting and for the purposes of profiling information looking at the last sentence in 8.3 would the primary
01:13:20 would the primary means of obtaining that information be via the home visit uh outside of the
01:13:29 sign up yes yes those those sort of targeted pieces of work yes that would have been the best way of doing it but was that the intended way of doing it
01:13:41 the intended way of doing it in terms of going out and knocking on doors yes
01:13:45 doors yes now turn on to a different topic which is the monitoring of tenancy audits and could i ask you to look at a spreadsheet which can be found at
01:13:58 tm00860130
01:14:04 now take it from me that the spreadsheet is dated the 13th of april 2016 and we can see here on sheet 1 on the left hand side
01:14:17 on the left hand side row 6 you're identified as completing
01:14:25 one audit in august and if i might ask the document manager to bring up sheet 2
01:14:35 and you'll see in the top left hand corner a box called overview which says this report brings back information on all tenancy
01:14:46 brings back information on all tenancy audit processes completed within the reporting period please note that this will not include information on audits attempted and completed
01:14:54 completed but not yet logged on w2 e.g following estate door knocking exercises
01:15:01 starting with the basic question first when you refer to a tenancy audit is that a reference to completing the questionnaire we were looking at a few moments ago yes i believe so
01:15:14 second basic question what was the purpose of this spreadsheet i think it was just a record who would complete it there
01:15:27 so simply a a monitoring exercise who's doing what now the overview referred to recording all
01:15:35 all audits which were logged on w2 only now does that mean that all information gathered from a tenancy audit was logged only onto w2 no
01:15:47 only onto w2 no where else was it log downloaded onto so so the tenancy order would have been saved into w2 in terms of that would have been the scan the physical scan of the physical document so that's
01:15:58 scan of the physical document so that's says w2 was the document management system really it just held copies of the documents it would have been it would have been entered into capita okay
01:16:09 entered into capita okay and from capita that means it gets pushed into the crm system automatically and were you able to capture historically recorded information regarding the
01:16:21 recorded information regarding the disabilities impairments of residents as part of this process yes uh well no this process would have captured historical stuff that was the point of it it would have it would have gone in and said what's
01:16:32 it would have gone in and said what's the situation as as at now so i was that was an imprecise question from me putting it differently would you have been able to access historic data via w2
01:16:44 historic data via w2 uh on residents vulnerabilities etc if the
01:16:48 the if there was a paper version of that if there was a paper information about that then yes it should have been in the tenancy file which means it was in w-2 yes
01:16:55 yes thank you now but it would have just been
01:17:00 been it would be like opening up a file of paper and finding out the the relevant piece of information so it wouldn't necessarily just you'd have to search through it to find it it wouldn't have been recorded necessarily in a specific place
01:17:12 necessarily in a specific place so it wouldn't have been easily accessible is that a fair it would depend
01:17:16 depend yes broadly it would depend obviously how big the fire was but yes broadly as ever how efficient the collation of that file had originally been yes now looking at um sheet two of this um spreadsheet
01:17:30 sheet two of this um spreadsheet it may help if the document manager could scroll down just to give you a broader view of what's on it as you see dates but if we go sorry if we go back up
01:17:43 you'll see the information headings in the top line would you agree with me that there's no reference to disability or vulnerability there
01:17:58 disability or vulnerability there uh keep going if you're saying there isn't there probably isn't but i'll let you look at it just in case i've
01:18:06 i've not understood something or missed something
01:18:09 something yeah that isn't in there where was that first of all why wasn't information on disability and vulnerability recorded on this spreadsheet
01:18:21 spreadsheet uh because it wasn't necessarily relevant to the people doing the tenancy audit and why wouldn't be necessarily audited if i could generally that information is kept quite confidential certainly the
01:18:33 is kept quite confidential certainly the disability related stuff is so neighborhood officers wouldn't necessarily need to know that until it was specific and where was that information recorded the disability and vulnerability
01:18:45 the disability and vulnerability in capital again and who would have access to that information you mentioned neighborhood office officers might not necessarily have happen as i remember neighborhood officers would have access
01:18:56 neighborhood officers would have access to
01:18:57 to ethnicity data and probably age and gender the sensitive information like
01:19:05 like sexual orientation religion and disability would was much more restricted i had access possibly someone in the performance team maybe senior managers i can't remember
01:19:17 maybe senior managers i can't remember specifically but that was much tighter neighborhood management managers probably
01:19:22 probably would anyone in the health and safety team have access to that information i can't remember can you remember whether janice ray in particular had access to that information well the health and safety team was two
01:19:35 well the health and safety team was two people so if one had it they both did okay um i i honestly can't remember with certainty as to who did or didn't have access to that they'll be it'll be documented somewhere
01:19:48 they'll be it'll be documented somewhere can you help us we saw on sheep one your name together with a number of other tmo employees were employees aware that if they encountered a resident who needed support for
01:20:00 a resident who needed support for example evacuating from their home that they could be referred to the health and safety team for a peep were you aware of that i knew that i would think the vast majority of these
01:20:11 would think the vast majority of these people did because they were housing officers
01:20:14 officers and they never i think they always worked in pairs if i remember rightly and if they were aware of it you said you were aware of it and you were aware of it because presumably you've been instructed and trained on that i can't remember why i was aware
01:20:27 on that i can't remember why i was aware of it
01:20:28 of it but i was and did you ever refer when you were carrying out this type of work did you ever refer anyone to the health and safety team for a peep or raise the question with the health and safety
01:20:39 safety i didn't that i on for one of my like i said i didn't do many um i think i was mainly back office trying to organize who was going where and when that's probably why i only had
01:20:51 and when that's probably why i only had the one
01:20:51 the one and that was probably posted to me so from your particular perspective can you remember
01:20:56 remember ever seeing um a resident referred to the health and safety team for a for a peep uh no but then i wouldn't necessarily expect it okay thank you as in i wouldn't expect to have seen it rather than to say i
01:21:08 to have seen it rather than to say i wouldn't have expected it to happen um i'm now going to turn to a separate topic sir
01:21:14 topic sir i don't know whether this is a convenient time for both you and mr noble to have a brief break and perhaps the transcriber as well um yes i think that probably would be a good thing but we'll take a break now
01:21:26 we'll take a break now if we say we'll uh come back at 20 to 12 will that be all right thank you so yes mr noble we have a break during the morning
01:21:35 morning everybody needs one and so we'll take it now
01:21:38 now um as i've just indicated we'll come back to resume at 20 to 12. i have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it that's right well you're out of the room yeah all right thank you very much we'd like to
01:21:50 right thank you very much we'd like to go with the usher please
01:22:01 [Applause] thank you 10 to 12. thanks
01:47:53 i said yes would you ask mr noble to come back in please
01:48:11 [Applause]
01:48:14 all right mr noble i'm sorry we kept you waiting longer than i that's indicated we had a little technical difficulty but we're ready to go on uh hopefully you're ready to go on too yeah right thank you thank you yes mr claire mr noble if we
01:48:27 thank you yes mr claire mr noble if we can now turn to the supporting residence policy which was also known as the vulnerable residence policy safe and sound supporting people policy now if we can turn to your second
01:48:39 now if we can turn to your second statement which is at tm00869574 and forward slash three to paragraph twelve
01:48:56 thank you you say that you recall drafting an updated policy in 2016 called the supporting people policy now um am i right understanding that as the
01:49:07 um am i right understanding that as the policy was drafted its early file names include vulnerability policy and then that change to safe and sound policy
01:49:15 policy finally the supporting residence policy or alternatively the sporting people policy
01:49:20 policy yes that sounds right yes but it's basically the same thing yes thank you and yes there was a clear push away from we wanted vulnerability out of the thing because it wasn't just about that
01:49:32 because it wasn't just about that we'll come on to that in due course but thank you but it basically yes not with standing in different titles same document i believe so yes now if we can turn to tm0080462
01:49:52 now as the title indicates this is the safe and sound policy draft 2 and if we could go to page 8
01:50:04 we'll see that in the tracked changes on the right hand side in the middle your name but on the right hand side the date the 17th of december 2014.
01:50:18 the date the 17th of december 2014. now bearing that date in mind first of all do you recall that particular draft no
01:50:26 do you recall who drafted this iteration of the policy i had me
01:50:34 bearing in mind that in your paragraph 12 for your second witness statement you said you recalled drafting an updated policy in 2016 looking at this
01:50:44 this looking at the dates of the track changes there would you accept that you appear to have started work on it certainly in december 2014 yes
01:50:56 now was this policy or this iteration of the policy prepared as part of the tenancy audit process
01:51:03 process that you and teresa brown had planned and which we discussed before the break
01:51:09 yes i think so
01:51:12 this might have been earlier than that i think that might have it might have evolved into something a bit bigger later um if it was earlier than that can you remember whether there's any particular
01:51:23 remember whether there's any particular prompt
01:51:24 prompt for the decision to revise the policy no no i don't remember in an earlier answer you touched upon um
01:51:36 in an earlier answer you touched upon um a a view that the title of the policy should change and it's changed from vulnerability to safe and sound policy can you explain to the panel why that decision was made i think it was more a
01:51:47 decision was made i think it was more a question of it just didn't want the policy to just be about vulnerable people not least because the definition of vulnerable is very difficult anyway as to what defines a vulnerable person
01:51:58 as to what defines a vulnerable person um so i think it was more about making sure that the the focus of the policy really was about making sure that we were supporting residents as best we could and but whether they were vulnerable or not
01:52:10 but whether they were vulnerable or not would be a matter of you know dancing ahead of a pin really defining whether they were or weren't vulnerable thank you and if we could turn back in this document to page five
01:52:23 and there's a heading at the bottom of that page
01:52:27 that page storage and access to information and the policy of the draft refers to storing information about residence vulnerability on capita
01:52:36 again we may have touched upon this but who did you envisage updating the information regarding um residents uh on capita
01:52:47 residents uh on capita uh generally i would have thought the neighborhood officer themselves were if they had access to the section of information that they were trying to update and if they didn't
01:52:59 were trying to update and if they didn't i would have assumed that they would have sent it to me or someone that did have access so dealing specifically with details of say a disability yeah um if the relevant officer did not have authorization
01:53:11 officer did not have authorization the responsibility for inputting the information would be passed upwards to someone who was authorized yes now if we can go to the top of page four
01:53:22 now if we can go to the top of page four in this document and there ought to be a header
01:53:25 header there we go the top people currently on the system and you comment there in dn1 the comment at the top right hand side that in essence you need
01:53:36 right hand side that in essence you need to decide whether those people should remain on the system the paragraph also says that vulnerability information on the system has been cleansed now does that mean that all information on
01:53:48 does that mean that all information on whether a resident was vulnerable which was held before 2014 had been deleted
01:53:56 i don't remember specifically but there had certainly been discussions and i don't remember necessarily the outcome of them but around
01:54:07 how long you can keep that sort of information on the system before it stops before you run into data protection questions because you're really only supposed to keep the data for
01:54:18 keep the data for for a relevant period of time obviously some disabilities aren't going to change but some might um you know so whether you want to particularly things like around mental health conditions
01:54:29 health conditions um somebody might have a depression say at a period of time but may have recovered later but therefore should you be keeping depression on the system forever
01:54:42 depression on the system forever no but at what point should you remove it and how do you what would the process be
01:54:46 be you know equally somebody could be classed as vulnerable if they've happened to have a broken leg but they're not necessarily vulnerable later so the questions around how long you keep that information is
01:54:57 how long you keep that information is was difficult i don't remember necessarily the outcome and it's more precise on that can you remember whether there was a data protection policy that was revised specifically to capture how long
01:55:09 specifically to capture how long information ought to be kept in relation to
01:55:11 to an individual's disabilities i don't remember there was a data protection policy i don't remember whether it held that sort of level of detail or whether it was drafted
01:55:22 detail or whether it was drafted or redrafted at any point now now can we now turn to the the vexed matter of a definition of vulnerability and if we could turn to page
01:55:33 and if we could turn to page two in this document and there we go just roughly above halfway there is a definition of individuals or households who may
01:55:44 of individuals or households who may require support and it says this an individual or household with care and support needs or who is experiencing difficulties with day-to-day life as a result of health or disability age
01:55:55 as a result of health or disability age social
01:55:56 social family financial behavioral or other circumstances or any combination of these now was that the working definition of a vulnerable resident
01:56:07 vulnerable resident that was used by the tmo generally and or for the purposes of this policy i think this was the that was more the definition that we came to
01:56:19 came to as part of the drafting of this policy
01:56:23 did that definition reflect the practice and procedure that the tmo adopted in relation to identifying vulnerable residents from that point forward yes i
01:56:34 residents from that point forward yes i think it probably did did it represent historic practice and procedure
01:56:40 procedure um yes and no i think vulnerability was generally sort of a blanket sort of from i think it was either 70 or 75 and older
01:56:51 older or and or disabled and it's that latter element disability was a consistent theme
01:56:56 theme both before and after yes this definition was formulated yes although obviously when you're with a disabled person on the specific you know with a specific
01:57:07 on the specific you know with a specific disabled person doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't just vulnerable but for a broad policy understood position yes now if we can go to the top of
01:57:19 yes now if we can go to the top of rather if we can go to page three in this document and the heading there at the top of the page the process and we can see there your suggested
01:57:31 and we can see there your suggested deletions
01:57:35 i'll just let you refresh your memory
01:57:47 and slightly further down as well where it
01:57:50 it deals particularly with pete process under the emboldened heading existing definitions yeah now for those per for this particular purpose did you ask the health and safety team about the peak process
01:58:02 safety team about the peak process and how it was implemented in practice i don't recall but it's likely that i did
01:58:10 did would it be something that you'd routinely do when dealing with drafting of this type of policy to speak to the health and safety team on a policy like this one yes
01:58:21 on a policy like this one yes and can you remember whether you received any responses from the health and safety team to this draft what judging by the health and safety don't really have anything lying there i
01:58:32 don't really have anything lying there i assume that yes i asked them and that's probably what they told me they didn't have a definition so i would assume therefore that i did have a response but i don't recall it specifically can we just turn to page seven in this
01:58:43 can we just turn to page seven in this draft
01:58:45 draft i don't know whether this assists you and if that could be expanded i'll just let you refresh your memory of that
01:59:11 so the absence of any express reference to
01:59:14 to the health and safety team there am i right in understanding your evidence that that should not mean that they weren't consulted yes i mean this is a list of things to be done
01:59:26 be done as part of either drafting this policy or work related work coming out of it so yes that doesn't mean that we didn't consult them there's just we got what we needed from them or got what we could
01:59:41 now could i now turn on to the uh next topic which is recording information on tmo systems and could i ask you to go to tm008047
02:00:01 and then a further iteration of the same document and if we go to page 5
02:00:10 and there we can see that you've made changes
02:00:14 changes 20th of october 2015. again had you been responsible for drafting the preceding text yes i mean i think it was a
02:00:25 yes i mean i think it was a collaborative piece of work between myself and teresa but in terms of doing the actual writing yes i think that was me and the collaboration would be
02:00:36 and the collaboration would be discussing its contents and the approach and you'd be responsible for the mechanics of drafting is that yes and if we can go to page four in this document and in particular paragraph five uh which is entitled storage of
02:00:48 which is entitled storage of and access to information
02:00:53 and there we see in the comment box at the bottom right hand corner you say this section will probably have to change as crm gets implemented as i'm not sure where the best place to store it will be
02:01:05 where the best place to store it will be crm will probably have better capacity to record more detailed information but then it won't necessarily be on capita at
02:01:12 capita at all now this version of the policy was produced in october 2015
02:01:19 2015 so around terms 10 months after the previous draft we've looked at can you help the panel in understanding why the policy
02:01:30 policy had not yet been finalized i wish i could remember i presumably there was a range of other work
02:01:39 work in that period of time either for me or teresa or both that was felt to be a higher priority and that was what the focus was on but what that was i can't remember it wasn't that there were specific objections not that i recall at all no
02:01:51 objections not that i recall at all no i think it was just a workload issue um because this policy was broadly trying to
02:02:00 to write down what customer practice broadly was and had any information regarding vulnerable residents being stored on capita
02:02:08 capita by this time i.e october 2015 yes
02:02:15 now it appears that tennessee audits were already being carried out by this time october 2015. were tmo employees carrying out tenancy audits
02:02:25 audits in the awareness of this policy presumably yes if it reflected broad um practice well not they were carrying it out in terms of
02:02:36 they were carrying it out in terms of the the broad stuff that was in this but not specifically this policy because obviously this was still a draft um but in terms of the broad principles that were within it yes and mindful of what you set out in the
02:02:48 and mindful of what you set out in the comment box was any decision made about whether to store vulnerable residence information on crm or on capita and if so the timing as to when that process would start when that
02:02:58 that the timing specifically no i think the decision generally was to leave it on capita for the time being and then review it as the crm system bedded in um and we got more familiar with it as a
02:03:10 um and we got more familiar with it as a system
02:03:11 system but the intention as far as i remember at this point was that capital would be the master would be the master system for holding that sort of information and it would as i recall be pushed
02:03:22 it would as i recall be pushed overnight so if there was a change in capital it would get pushed into crm so that crm would have the data in it but it lived oops sorry it left in capita
02:03:34 sorry it left in capita can i now turn to a further version of the document tmo double zero double eight zero
02:03:48 and we see in the box at the very top of the page
02:03:52 the page version 1 author u operational date april uh 2016. uh again it's it's now changed its title
02:04:03 uh again it's it's now changed its title but again the same document is that i believe so yes and if we go to page four and paragraph 5 again
02:04:12 5 again storage of an access to information we can see what's set out there and i'll just let you refresh your memory and read those two paragraphs there
02:04:44 yeah now first of all can we take it that this document was the approved and adopted
02:04:49 adopted policy that was implied i would assume it was yes as i remember who would have approved it i would it was certainly smt maybe et as well i
02:05:00 well i can't remember most things would have definitely gone to smt some things went up beyond that but i couldn't remember the the criteria for what didn't didn't go up and the operational date on the first
02:05:11 and the operational date on the first page that accurately recorded the date upon which the policy fully came into force is that right i've seen no reason why it wouldn't and would the policy or was the policy circulated to all tmo staff
02:05:25 i can't remember what the policy circulation methodology was people would have been made aware of it and i would have thought it was made available
02:05:32 available on the staff internet or similar sort of place i can't remember the logistics of how that worked
02:05:40 worked would that would posting it on the internet be supplemented by an email alert
02:05:44 alert that there had been a new policy i would have thought so um or all the smt members would have told their their managers who would have disseminated it via team meetings and the like verbally
02:05:55 meetings and the like verbally um there's a reference um in paragraph five of the policy to the customer first system what was that i can't remember
02:06:10 i think it was i think it was a sort of broad umbrella term for information gathering but i can't really remember with certainty it wasn't my area i think it came from
02:06:22 it wasn't my area i think it came from customer services generally
02:06:27 it's a phrase i when i saw it i thought oh yeah the customer first but i can't remember what it was uh looking at the um first sub-paragraph of paragraph five um it's the the second line um where
02:06:40 um it's the the second line um where it is not necessary or sorry the the end of the third line it is not necessary for staff to know residents disability status but what functional outcome any impairment may have and what
02:06:52 impairment may have and what alterations
02:06:55 yeah to service may be required now starting with the first question can you explain what is meant and what you meant by staff knowing the quotes functional outcome any impairment
02:07:07 quotes functional outcome any impairment may have well it's a question of so if somebody's a wheelchair user you don't need to know why they're a wheelchair user but that they are and what impact that would have on their life and you know ability to get
02:07:19 their life and you know ability to get around or whatever it is that sort of thing so in terms of the functional outcome i mean i mean is what can they or can they not do
02:07:27 do but not the reason why they can't and can you help us understand as to have for example an individual neighborhood officer who may not have access to
02:07:38 officer who may not have access to information regarding a resident disability would be made aware of that disability and what
02:07:45 and what adaptations alterations may be so there was certainly a section within the crm system that would include the vulnerability information that would say things like takes longer to get to the door or can't
02:07:56 takes longer to get to the door or can't can't see or has a visual impairment or has a hearing impairment or something like that if i can stop you there would that system have a prompt to the neighborhood officer for example
02:08:07 to the neighborhood officer for example to refer
02:08:08 to refer anyone presenting with a vulnerability or a handicap for a a peep not that i recall no
02:08:18 the policy suggests that you and the data performance officer were the only ones who could update disability specific information is that
02:08:25 is that a fair summary of the requirements of the policy i don't remember specifically that but that's what it says i don't i certainly had more rights than
02:08:36 had more rights than most people did to change or uh access that data
02:08:39 that data so yes that seems reasonable so was that the practice that was adopted from april 2016 onwards yes yes
02:08:49 and just so we understand the process itself how would you physically or electronically receive information about a disabled resident it would be i think it would be emailed
02:09:00 it would be i think it would be emailed to me
02:09:02 to me you say i think is that just a i would i can't remember specifically one way or the other i would assume that's how it was done
02:09:09 was done i would have i would if somebody said if somebody said to me verbally oh mrs whatever wherever oh i met her the other day and she's got such and such i said okay i need that in writing and
02:09:22 i said okay i need that in writing and then you would translate that information and put it into capita yes
02:09:29 and from what you say customer first isn't a phrase which it's a phrase i recognize but i can't remember the detail of what it is but certainly it wasn't a system upon which you recorded it it is it is a it's not an i.t
02:09:43 it is a it's not an i.t system or anything like that it's a that's a conceptual system if you see what i mean now um on the 14th of june 2017 you provided teresa brown with a list of grenfell tower residents
02:09:54 tower residents including uh whether they were known to have any vulnerability or disability and if we turn to that list it's at tmo double zero eight double six
02:10:05 double zero eight double six double zero two
02:10:19 we don't necessarily need to have it up on the screen but was the res was the supporting residence policy the reason why
02:10:25 why you were the only person who could access that information on the night of the fort i don't know that it was no um i don't know that i was necessarily the only person that could have got that information but i was the person
02:10:39 that they chose to do it would any other tmo employee have been able to access that information on the night of the 14th of june 2017 not any other but
02:10:50 not any other but others yes can you remember who those others
02:10:54 others were um
02:10:57 were um so probably the policy the performance officer could have done it the that post that was mentioned in there that i've forgotten the name of the data yeah that one yeah could have done it um possibly some
02:11:09 yeah could have done it um possibly some of the neighborhood managers could have done it
02:11:12 done it but you really needed a computer to be able to do it you couldn't do it mo on from a phone for example and obviously those key people i think teresa probably could have done it but obviously she was
02:11:24 obviously she was on site i think at the time so she wouldn't have had the access to do it then
02:11:28 then so was the the issue access to appropriate kit from which to access information as opposed to limited authorization tax i believe that was the main issue yes now before the 14th of june and sorry
02:11:40 now before the 14th of june and sorry mister so i was just going to say and i produced these sorts of pieces of information for neighborhood officers when they needed to know vulnerability information so that people knew that i knew how to do
02:11:51 that people knew that i knew how to do it
02:11:51 it and therefore reflexively asked you yeah okay now before the 14th of june 2017 was there any consideration within the tmo on how employees could access this type of
02:12:02 employees could access this type of information in the event of an emergency such as a fire affecting residents
02:12:12 i don't recall no
02:12:16 when you say you don't recall is that a though
02:12:20 though more likely than not that no discussion took place i don't remember that discussion taking place now in your second statement uh at six tm00869
02:12:33 at six tm00869 five seven four forward slash one
02:12:41 and if we could expand paragraph four
02:12:47 you say in the second line start of the second sentence i believe that this information was extracted either from the crm or capita by accessing existing
02:12:58 the crm or capita by accessing existing resonant data available to me at the time of the fire now if we can put that down and bring up your third statement which is at tmo double zero
02:13:09 which is at tmo double zero eight double nine double six nine forward slash two if we go to paragraph
02:13:16 paragraph seven
02:13:19 that you said annex to my statement
02:13:25 dn1 production spreadsheet how i produce the spreadsheet which we just looked at on the night of the fire was i've described in detail how i extracted this information from capita
02:13:36 information from capita insight it must be noted that capita is a live system and records current data now are you looking at what you say in your second statement looking what
02:13:48 in your second statement looking what you say in your third statement are you sure now that the spreadsheet was taken from information available on capita yes now if we can stay in the third
02:14:00 now if we can stay in the third statement and go to paragraph 10
02:14:09 if that could be am expanded as well
02:14:14 and then you say there you've annexed your statement dn4 crm and vulnerable information where information in relation to vulnerable residents was stored on crm
02:14:25 residents was stored on crm from the session that i attended however i do not recall that crm was used to store this kind of information whilst i was employed by the tmo and i believe that all information in relation to vulnerabilities would have been
02:14:36 vulnerabilities would have been inputted and stored on capita i understand from rbkcit that capita vulnerability data does not pull through onto crm and therefore any information
02:14:48 onto crm and therefore any information located on crm would have to be inputted manually by tmo
02:14:53 tmo operatives now is that a fair and accurate summary of your understanding now no and how would you like to correct it then
02:15:04 it then so the vulnerability information is held in capital that much is right there was a vulnerability information held in crm uh as i mentioned earlier there was more in terms of the functional stuff i cannot remember
02:15:15 cannot remember how the information was was put into capita
02:15:18 capita whether that was done uh from uh capita how the information was put into crm sorry i don't remember whether that came from capita automatically
02:15:29 capita automatically and was then and then additional information was but i think that's probably what it was is the initial there was initial copy over basically from capita to crm um
02:15:40 from capita to crm um and then users would add information into crm
02:15:46 into crm from the functional side of it as well as they went along so yeah so if we go to tm00809673 we can look at the exhibit which may
02:15:57 we can look at the exhibit which may help you
02:15:58 help you and that contains screenshots of information about a vulnerable resident at the tower and if that could be expanded slightly the resident lived in flat in the tower
02:16:11 in flat in the tower and if we can see on the right hand side an expanded box which says from the review of the crm some information relation vulnerabilities was
02:16:22 vulnerabilities was uploaded onto um crm and if we turn over the page as well at page two yeah i don't know let me if you just look at page two and i again if you can if that could be the
02:16:34 i again if you can if that could be the top half could be expanded you'll see the box top right hand corner
02:16:39 appeared the information was added to crm by
02:16:43 crm by samantha borrow on the 28th of october 2016.
02:16:47 2016. does that screenshot help you clarify your recollection as to how information came to be stored on crm
02:16:55 on crm no that just confirms that it was on crm and as i said some information was added by users as you could see there that sam has done that doesn't mean that all of
02:17:08 has done that doesn't mean that all of the information was added by users and and to how the bulk of that information appeared at the start of the crm system i can't remember i think it was uploaded in bulk but i don't recall that with
02:17:21 in bulk but i don't recall that with certainty
02:17:22 certainty okay now we've cross-referred this information to the spreadsheet we looked at earlier that was produced on the night
02:17:30 the night and the particular resident of this flat was not marked as vulnerable but would you agree with me that
02:17:38 that certainly in 2016 the crm was used being used by tmo officers to record residents who were vulnerable or potentially vulnerable yes
02:17:50 would you agree that that information may not have also been captured on capita or
02:17:56 capita or are you able to say it is possible that it was not capital it was not captured on capital
02:18:04 simply because people were going direct to crm
02:18:08 to crm can you remember whether any direction had been provided to staff as to which system upon which to record information regarding vulnerabilities
02:18:20 regarding vulnerabilities uh so
02:18:24 uh so i don't recall specifically no i mean users would generally have used a crm system because they had access to it uh whereas the capita stuff which was more speci which was more than the detail about what the disability was
02:18:36 detail about what the disability was that they wouldn't have had access to would it have caused if certain information was on crm but not on capita that would of itself
02:18:47 but not on capita that would of itself give rise to a risk of a disparity or inconsistency of information would you agree yes
02:18:53 agree yes in relation to someone's vulnerability yes
02:18:58 and so in an emergency the accuracy of the
02:19:02 the information provided depended upon which system was accessed by the individual who's looking for that information yes and it was a risk that that information would be inaccurate
02:19:13 would be inaccurate that's the risks yes had anything been first of all had that potential
02:19:24 potential and that risk been identified by anyone before the fire can you remember i think it probably had yes i think i probably
02:19:31 probably noted it but i don't remember when had anything
02:19:35 anything been done to eliminate or reduce that risk
02:19:38 risk in terms of instructions to staff or increasing the synthesis between the two i think there were i think there were pieces of data
02:19:49 i think there were pieces of data data cleansing is the right word but data quality processes that we were trying to develop to ensure that these sorts of things balanced out across the two across the two as i remember but the
02:20:01 across the two as i remember but the detail of when that was i couldn't tell you
02:20:04 you okay um can we now turn on to a separate topic
02:20:07 topic um which is the approval and adoption of the policy and the involvement in the health and safety team and could we turn to document tmo double 865 834
02:20:23 and it really flows from the matters we've been discussing you'll see at the bottom of that page there's an email from janice ray 7th of december 2016 at 8 12 in the morning
02:20:33 morning and if we go on to page 2
02:20:41 you'll see that she emailed you saying i'm reviewing our fire policy as part of the discussions with the h s committee there have been some questions about data on vulnerability how is this captured where is it stored how reliable is it are we able to advise
02:20:53 how reliable is it are we able to advise please
02:20:54 please and if we go back to page one you give your response
02:21:04 and then we below the bullet points you say historic data is on capita and we're in the process of moving it onto crm new data goes direct into crm
02:21:15 into crm and then you go on to reliability now first of all is that an accurate summary
02:21:23 summary of the unders of the practice that was applied at least as december 2016 as the transfer of information did you arrange for data to be transferred to crm
02:21:37 i can't remember in detail how we were planning to do that i suspect it was a question of trying to build the system so that they could do it as automatically as possible
02:21:49 it as automatically as possible and asking an obvious question did older data remain on capita during this process
02:21:55 process as far as i'm aware yes and it wouldn't be updated but crm would be is that a fair summary crm would be capital might be
02:22:06 capital might be and the might it would be dependent upon it would probably be dependent on the source of the data
02:22:14 so if so if so if one of those forms was completed it would have been sent to us and that's the central team and it would have been updated in capital at that point and were you responsible for the
02:22:26 responsible for the orderly transfer of the data or someone else
02:22:29 else i wasn't responsible for it no can you remember who was
02:22:35 if it was going to be an automated system then it would have come from the i.t team would have been involved in that whether that counts as responsibility i don't know
02:22:46 responsibility i don't know um i would have thought we were aiming for an
02:22:50 for an automated process on it
02:22:54 now um returning to the um looking at this
02:22:57 this email um on the 7th of december your response
02:23:02 response um you also mentioned we have a new supporting people policy that uh i wrote a while back i've handed it over to tom now but it is live though we need to do more
02:23:13 but it is live though we need to do more work on publicizing it um is tom tom buckley the policy adviser yes
02:23:19 yes and when did the policy go live was it april 2016 as we've discussed earlier i i don't recall but i see no reason why it wouldn't have been and for the avoidance of doubt going live means approved and adopted and putting into
02:23:30 approved and adopted and putting into practical application yes
02:23:37 you refer to doing more work on publicizing the policy let you remember what you did to achieve that aim
02:23:43 that aim we would have well i don't know what i actually did but in terms of the options available it would have been like internal newsletters there was
02:23:55 newsletters there was staff communications i'm talking about it at
02:23:59 it at managers forum and that sort of thing potentially going to teams and talking to them about it like i possibly like the resident engagement team that i went to i think i probably mentioned it to them that sort of
02:24:11 mentioned it to them that sort of process as well but also disseminating it through managers and making sure that reminding them to make sure that they publicize it as well and had the um um concern to publicize it being
02:24:23 um um concern to publicize it being prompted by any concerns or problems that people were unaware of the new policy and not that i recall no
02:24:31 no um was that the first time you mentioned the finalized version of the policy to janice ray um the reason i ask is that the way you formulated that sentence we have a new supporting people policy
02:24:42 supporting people policy might give the impression that this was the first time you'd raised it with her
02:24:49 i don't recall whether i've raised it without before or not um can we now turn on to supporting residence procedure
02:25:00 residence procedure and if i could ask us to go to tm0080482
02:25:13 and that's the resonance procedure and if we could go to page seven
02:25:21 again midway down the or the end of this screenshot you see operational date april 2016 and was that the date it became
02:25:32 and was that the date it became operational so it paired with the policy yes can we go back to the first page of this document
02:25:41 and just developing that last answer further paragraph 1.1 says this procedure supports the supporting residence policy the key name of which
02:25:51 of which is to ensure that residents get access to any additional support they need to live their lives whether that's provided by the tmo or other agencies and or for the tmo to be able to tailor
02:26:04 and or for the tmo to be able to tailor its services any other support if we go further down the page under the heading potential indicators and solutions under paragraph 2.2 it
02:26:16 paragraph 2.2 it identifies indicators that a resident may have support needs and recommends solutions and what contributions did other teams in the tmo
02:26:27 in the tmo have in relation to the preparation of this procedure this was driven by the neighborhood management team
02:26:37 teresa specifically as i recall i'm probably
02:26:42 probably um i can't remember whether she had a policy officer or not but i certainly remember sitting down with theresa draft in this procedure because yeah
02:26:51 yeah these sections were particularly hurt and looking at the substance of section 2.2
02:27:00 2.2 were those prompted by a concern that practical guidance needed to be given to neighborhood officers to know uh concern might not be the right word but i think it was making sure that you know you provided the information to the
02:27:12 you provided the information to the neighborhood officers on potential solutions for issues and can you recall whether janice ray was consulted upon the substances procedure before it came into force i don't remember with
02:27:24 came into force i don't remember with certainty no um likely or unlikely or possible possible
02:27:32 um we've reviewed uh the document and there's no reference within it to fire peeps or evacuation can you help us as to why those matters
02:27:45 can you help us as to why those matters were not addressed in this procedure i believe that i think the intention was that the fires were the health and safety
02:27:51 safety was its own separate area and so the the the issues that were related to health and safety would be managed by that health and safety team and their policies and procedures
02:28:04 and that would explain in particular why evacuation and the particular needs arising for vulnerable residents were not considered here yeah
02:28:14 if we can go back to your second witness statement
02:28:21 tm00869574
02:28:25 and page 3
02:28:28 and paragraph 12 again you refer there again
02:28:32 again to the supporting people policy and said that this policy was signed off by the senior management team at a meeting on the 17th of march 2016 and was referred to the executive team
02:28:43 and was referred to the executive team for approval before it could be introduced as far as i am aware this policy was not considered by the executive team before the 14th of june 2017 and i do not
02:28:54 the 14th of june 2017 and i do not believe it was ever brought into force now could a policy go live as you described it if it had not been approved by the executive team
02:29:06 yes like i said earlier i don't recall the criteria
02:29:12 or the the level of authority if you like that would determine whether it would
02:29:16 would just need to go to senior management team or whether it would need to go to executive team i can't recall um yes i mean looking at this the documentation and the policy it it did go live
02:29:29 and the policy it it did go live and so just to ask a specific question the procedure went live in april 2016 and guided the tmo's actions thereafter
02:29:40 and guided the tmo's actions thereafter until the fire yes as far as i'm aware and again with the
02:29:45 the processes for publicizing the existence of
02:29:48 of the new procedure be exactly the same as those used to publicize the existence of the new policy
02:29:56 yes i suspect the procedure being much more practical was probably disseminated to neighborhood offices more directly because that's more relevant to them they actually need to see the you know if this do that
02:30:09 to see the you know if this do that rather than the rather than the more strategic would theresa brand be able to assist us on on the substance of those matters i would have thought so and can you recall from your perspective whether any training was
02:30:20 whether any training was um provided um to anyone in relation to the requirements of the policy and procedure i think they were yes but i don't remember the detail of them i certainly
02:30:31 remember the detail of them i certainly didn't provide it myself but i'm pretty sure that we i think i think there was yes and apologies for coming back to this but are you aware of what the process
02:30:44 but are you aware of what the process would be
02:30:45 would be whereby senior management team decided to refer something to the executive team in relation for example in relation to a new policy i don't recall oh no were you ever involved in those type of discussions no i might have known at the
02:30:57 discussions no i might have known at the time what the criteria were but i don't remember what they were and i wasn't involved
02:31:00 involved in and i wasn't on the senior management team for the sake of clarity um are you are you able to assist the panel on why the executive team had not uh signed off on this policy before the 14th of june
02:31:12 on this policy before the 14th of june 2017.
02:31:13 2017. i can't remember
02:31:17 but to paraphrase it was not unusual for a policy
02:31:20 a policy not to be signed off by the executive team but to come into operational practice
02:31:25 practice it certainly could happen i don't know about usual or unusual but it could definitely happen yeah now i want to turn on to a separate and distinct topic and that's translation services now if i could ask you to go to tm00849
02:31:41 now if i could ask you to go to tm00849 four
02:31:42 four one two
02:31:48 and here we go people performance meeting 17th of june 2013 and if we turn over the page to page two
02:31:57 and through to three and then culminating at four
02:32:04 see the sections so through those various sections for team news and here we go on page four roughly a third of the way down david that's you i assume
02:32:13 assume yeah and
02:32:16 yeah and uh you say on the fourth bullet point now handling all tmo translation requests
02:32:24 requests why did you handle those requests for the tmo because i was the budget holder and did you continue did you handle them between from 2013 until 2017.
02:32:37 i can't remember when i picked it up i certainly didn't have it when i when i joined there was a point where i picked it up this is what it was this meeting's june 2013 from then yeah okay can you remember give the the panel
02:32:51 okay can you remember give the the panel a rough idea of how many requests for translations were made per month or half yearly or yearly a handful
02:33:02 maybe 10 and is that per year or per month so i confuse you with the way i put the question
02:33:10 question i think it could have gone up to 10 a month but that will be an exceptional month
02:33:15 month as i recall it was there are there are spreadsheets somewhere with it listed in and what efforts did the tmo make to ensure that its materials were accessible in other languages for residents most
02:33:30 other languages for residents most most documents would have had a translation banner on the back saying if you need this translated contact us and we'll try and get it done for you
02:33:42 for you um i think that was that was pretty standard on a lot of formal documents it's certainly on the tenancy agreement it was on
02:33:48 it was on corporate newsletters and those sorts of things
02:33:52 things can we go to just following up that theme document tmo double 0-873-549 which hopefully is an edition of link magazine issue 60
02:34:04 magazine issue 60 that's six zero um from autumn winter 2015.
02:34:08 2015. now that's the tmo's own magazine published for residents isn't it yeah and if we go to the last page which is at page 40
02:34:21 and i think the information you were referring to in answer to my previous question is that in the lower box on that page is that right yes and possibly in the box above it i didn't
02:34:32 possibly in the box above it i didn't see what that was but yeah apologies jointed
02:34:35 jointed oh that's just a general contact yes the the translation stuff is at the bottom yeah
02:34:39 yeah and that box uh says that on request the magazine
02:34:42 magazine the magazine can be translated into arabic bengali french portuguese smalli spanish it was also possible to provide large print audio and braille formats
02:34:55 audio and braille formats you were responsible for responding to those requests for translation made in answer to that offer yeah
02:35:04 how often would you receive requests that this magazine be translated this specific magazine i don't remember that specific magazine being requested
02:35:15 being requested and i think i probably would because it was quite a bulky magazine and it would have cost a lot of money because it's this one's 40 pages long
02:35:24 was cost any ever an inhibiting factor in exceeding to any request
02:35:32 from your perspective as the quality and diversity advisor was that notice in your view sufficient to ensure that grenfell residents were able to access information in the languages identify in languages identified in the notice
02:35:45 in languages identified in the notice but also
02:35:45 but also other languages that weren't identified in the notice
02:35:52 yes i don't know whether residents thought they could only get translations from those languages that wouldn't have been the case we could we would have translated as widely as we could if somebody asked for it did you ever get
02:36:04 it did you ever get requests to translate into languages other than those identified in this box yes i think so but i can't really remember which ones can you remember how frequently you receive those requests not very often
02:36:15 receive those requests not very often we didn't receive many translation requests at all the the larger numbers that i mentioned earlier were usually i suspect it was somewhere like the supporting people team who were working in sheltered housing
02:36:27 in sheltered housing and we're working with a very specific group of people who they knew very well and knew what languages they would require
02:36:33 require okay thank you now i want to turn on to the topic of disability access to grenfell tower and if i could ask the document manager
02:36:45 and if i could ask the document manager to bring up document
02:36:48 tm0084
02:36:59 there we go and just in summary in 2013 uh claire williams had an exchange with bruce soons who's the architect for the grenfell refurbishment and a gentleman called philip booth
02:37:12 and a gentleman called philip booth she was being asked to approve a proposal for a consultant to provide access to the tower you were not copied into this email but at the top of this email exchange as you can see there
02:37:23 can see there there's an email from claire williams on the 8th of october 2013 at 9 26 you can see that she said quotes apologies i was waiting for david gibson to have a session with david noble
02:37:34 to have a session with david noble who is our access man i'll raise this with him
02:37:38 with him if he's in this a.m otherwise we can establish
02:37:42 establish the result of his discussions at the design team meeting to get this sorted today
02:37:47 today do you recall any consideration of disability access to the tower for these new flats any discussion with david gibson or anyone else um not the specifics on the tower no not
02:37:59 um not the specifics on the tower no not that i recall i do remember going to a meeting
02:38:02 meeting with the team and talking to them broadly about access and part m of the building regulations all that sort of stuff but not not specifics on that no which isn't to
02:38:13 not specifics on that no which isn't to say it didn't happen but i don't remember it looking at that word access was there also discussion as to how people could evacuate if the need arose i don't remember the discussion
02:38:25 i don't remember the discussion happening
02:38:26 happening i don't remember that discussion happening so i can't remember whether that was talk about egress but i would have thought this access was the access that they were talking about
02:38:38 the access that they were talking about here is more likely to be accessed into the
02:38:41 the into the like the main door but not not really beyond that possibly possibly internal lifts but i don't think there are plans around the lifts at that point i think this was more around
02:38:53 point i think this was more around access to into the doors okay now turn to a separate document tmo one triple zero four two nine
02:39:08 five you attended uh we can see there you're the last identified attendee meeting at the capitol investment team meeting on the 25th of october 2013. yeah
02:39:20 october 2013. yeah uh you were listed as a quotes guest spot close quotes on the first item and the minutes record
02:39:27 record uh dn working to make sure that consideration to part m access and the quality act requirements are included and recording through the process by design during works and finally on
02:39:38 by design during works and finally on keystone
02:39:39 keystone this could be resident profiling for lift renewals leading to decants temp temporary accommodation on how to manage access for disabled residents during works dien noted that in
02:39:50 during works dien noted that in refurbishment it may not be possible to include
02:39:53 include full access works but this needs to be recorded if no reasonable adjustments could be made i.e not reasonably practicable in terms of
02:40:02 of expense can we take it from claire williams's email on the 8th of october um that you provided this advice the capital investment team for the
02:40:13 the capital investment team for the grenfell tower refurbishment project from this advice yes no this is this is broad
02:40:21 this is access generally no i don't believe this was grenfell specifically so it was it was generic to the tmos stock housing yes
02:40:33 were you asked to provide specific part m
02:40:37 m equality act advice in relation to access problems during major works i.e the refurbishment at grenfell not project specific no not that i
02:40:49 not project specific no not that i recall
02:40:51 recall certainly not grandfather there may have been other ones but i don't recall them but you're quite but you don't recall any in relation to grandfather no okay
02:41:04 when you considered it at the generic level
02:41:08 level did you consider provisions for evacuation should the need arise no this was more specifically to do with access broadly when you say and i would mainly say that
02:41:19 when you say and i would mainly say that was because i would have considered egress to be a health and safety emergency egress is a health and safety issue and not my area of expertise was that something upon which you would
02:41:30 was that something upon which you would have advised david gibson when he asked you or claire williams if she had asked you yes
02:41:41 yes because issues around that would you be talking about things like fire doors and
02:41:46 and that sort of stuff and that's not where i would
02:41:49 i would have any expertise in talking about um penultimate section now briefly dealing with complaints could i ask you to turn to tmo tm00852174
02:42:08 and here we go it's a resident engagement team briefing 2nd february 2015
02:42:14 2015 we can see that you attended you're the last attendee identified and if we can go to agenda item 3.0 which is the bottom of page 2 that goes over to page 3.
02:42:28 and then if we see at the bottom page you're assisting in streamlining the complaints process policy especially concerning we go over
02:42:39 especially concerning we go over cancer's inquiries complaints as they do not always go through the proper route no significant changes relating to resident uh complaints um what were the problems with inquiries
02:42:50 um what were the problems with inquiries complaints not going through the proper route can you remember now i can't for certain i suspect it was
02:42:58 whether councillors were just emailing executives rather than going through the complaints team so it's about then making sure that
02:43:11 so it's about then making sure that uh actually that the counselors are told to go through the complaints team so that the information is stored in the places it's supposed to be rather than just going to the
02:43:22 than just going to the to robert or sarah or whoever and saying you know whatever it was that they wanted to say and how did you streamline the process i can't remember and can you remember whether the
02:43:33 and can you remember whether the streamlining removed the problems which you've been asked to address or whether they persisted i'm not sure that you can ever change a policy that will stop
02:43:41 will stop a counselor emailing somebody understood final question relates to text bursts we don't need to go to the statement but it's a paragraph eight of your second
02:43:52 it's a paragraph eight of your second witness statement you refer to using text burst to message staff on the night of the fire my question is twofold was text burst used first of all to communicate with residents generally no
02:44:04 residents generally no was it used well no actually that's not i think that's true i never used it to contact residents i believe that they did use it i think they had some phone numbers of
02:44:16 i think they had some phone numbers of some residents for some capital program pieces of work but i can't i don't know which ones i wasn't
02:44:21 wasn't something that i was aware of but so yeah they had they had the text burst system
02:44:26 system before i was given access to it but my focus was solely for staff and do you recall text burst being used on the night of the fire as a means to communicate with residents
02:44:37 communicate with residents i don't recall that no i did that isn't to say it didn't happen
02:44:43 um mr noble i've come to the end of my prepared questions there may be others so we ordinarily allow 20 minutes in relation to
02:44:54 20 minutes in relation to tmo witnesses that's practice in mod 1. i'm in your hands given the present time i would have thought that we might on this occasion allow a
02:45:05 that we might on this occasion allow a quarter of an hour and um if you're told that further time is required then of course you can let us know and we'll try to oblige i'm grateful i think for the moment what we'll say is that
02:45:16 the moment what we'll say is that um we'll be back at one o'clock excellent
02:45:20 excellent mr nevo i didn't you didn't really understand the system but when council gets to the end of his prepared questions we always have a break first of all to let him check that he's not missed anything out
02:45:31 check that he's not missed anything out and secondly to allow other people who are not in the room but who are following the proceedings to suggest further matters on which we might need your help so we're going to take that break now we'll come back at one o'clock
02:45:43 we'll come back at one o'clock okay um and see whether there are any more questions for you but uh unless there are a lot more than i think likely you'll be able to get away fairly shortly after one o'clock okay thank you
02:45:54 shortly after one o'clock okay thank you all right
02:45:54 all right good so excuse would you go with the usher please and don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're away thank you
02:46:10 while you're away thank you right mr kenya one o'clock unless we receive a message that more time is required thanks
03:05:31 would you ask mr noble to come back in
03:05:44 please right mr noble well i think there may be one or two questions for you but we'll see how we go okay there are a few thank you sir um mr noble were you aware of any access
03:05:56 noble were you aware of any access audits being carried out in relation to grenfell tower or indeed any other tmo property
03:06:03 i don't know specifically about grenfell but i do remember that access audits were carried out um what would be the circumstances in which an axis audit would be carried out can't remember the detail of it now um
03:06:17 can't remember the detail of it now um were you ever shown um an access audit handbook and we can bring it up to refresh your memory it's rbk treble zero four 45171
03:06:32 no you've never seen [Music]
03:06:36 [Music] no sure not that version i i went on a course with the center for accessible environments to do that access auditing whether it was that specific handbook i can't remember
03:06:47 remember um could if we just look at page 14 within
03:06:51 within this handbook
03:06:59 and if we look in the first paragraph it's the last four lines and says importantly the auditor should also consider how easy a building is to exit this can easily be overlooked when the overall emphasis is on enabling people
03:07:11 overall emphasis is on enabling people to get into and around buildings um were you aware of that recommendation yes and yet notwithstanding that recommendation well let's see i wouldn't have said i
03:07:22 well let's see i wouldn't have said i was doing access audits
03:07:26 and what would you be saying you'd be i was saying i've given them advice and guidance on how to do one
03:07:33 um can we now turn on to um some other matters um which departments within the council
03:07:41 council would you work with if any uh so there was i can't remember which departments they were necessarily but i worked with the worklessness coordinator on the worklessness project
03:07:53 on the worklessness project there was when i first joined and they call it in diversity person i can't remember
03:07:57 remember where they sat specifically organizationally but they left after a couple of years maybe
03:08:04 maybe i don't think they were replaced so at that point the main work i did with the council i think would have been around the employability worklessness project
03:08:16 project and um
03:08:20 and um the council would do an equality impact assessment of the tmo i think it was i can't remember the detail of it so i certainly would
03:08:28 would do some work with them on that and how regular would that happen i think and when a tenant was uh referred to the tmo what information regarding a new
03:08:41 what information regarding a new tenant's needs would the tmo receive if any from our bkc can you help us with that
03:08:47 that i don't know that would have gone through the neighborhood team and similarly would the neighborhood team
03:08:53 team be the relevant team for receiving information from social services department of the council in respect of a particular whether a tenant or a prospective tenant was receiving they may be um so um aids and adaptations would be
03:09:07 um so um aids and adaptations would be done
03:09:07 done by the asset and regen team so they will be working with the occupational therapists to make any changes to in a to a flat that needed to be done like handrail's putting in or
03:09:18 putting in or whatever it is that the resident needed um in terms of the social services stuff that would have gone to the neighbourhood offices so david officers would be working with social services teams i know that they did i don't know the detail of what they
03:09:29 did i don't know the detail of what they did
03:09:29 did specifically and um
03:09:37 in light of the um the limited resident profile information that was available on the knight of the fire would you accept that in that regard there was a failure of the tmos equality
03:09:48 there was a failure of the tmos equality and diversity policies to enable full complete and accurate information to be available about residence vulnerabilities in the event of an emergency such as the fire on the 14th of june
03:10:01 i suppose you could view it that way yes i mean the issue there were there were a lot of problems i mean i sent them the information that i had but the the issue was as i recall and which is
03:10:12 the issue was as i recall and which is why i sent them a revised version is that the documents were just too big to read on a phone they went across multiple columns and at that point of the of the the of the well the morning
03:10:23 well the morning five five o'clock in the morning i think it was really a question of names and who's in the building whether they were vulnerable or not at that point i think i think they'd pass
03:10:34 that point i think i think they'd pass that stage so you know maybe at one o'clock in the morning that was more of an issue but not by
03:10:39 not by five would you accept that it was your responsibility as equality and diversity advisor to ensure that the tmos health and safety department complied with equality obligations
03:10:52 complied with equality obligations in relation to fire safety arrangements the provision of peeps and evacuations no i would have said it was my responsibility to ensure that they had the advice that they needed and looking back now looking back at the
03:11:06 and looking back now looking back at the particular the detail and accuracy of information how it's recorded regarding residents vulnerabilities is there anything you would have done differently i think we were on the route
03:11:20 differently i think we were on the route from moving from capital which was not a particularly user-friendly and quite restrictive system towards a crm system which gave us a lot more flicks of flexibility about what and how we could record information and we were in that process yes if we
03:11:32 and we were in that process yes if we could do it again then i'd do it faster okay um you gave evidence that you had no requests at all to translate link
03:11:43 no requests at all to translate link magazine and very few translation requests overall for documents which contained information um were you aware that there were certainly some tmo residents who could not read english
03:11:55 english oh yes and did you give well i don't know that i knew a specific residents who couldn't read english but i knew that there were some that couldn't and what arrangements did you put in place to ensure that that cohort of
03:12:07 place to ensure that that cohort of residents
03:12:08 residents understood information such as fire safety information uh so there was an interpretation service available as well so that's uh it could be done verbally
03:12:20 so that's uh it could be done verbally so the neighborhood officers would have access to
03:12:22 access to a service to get an interpreter to visit on site or potentially over the phone to do that sort of thing and we also would have done outreach work with local organizations like there was a somali group in the area
03:12:34 somali group in the area that we would have i don't know that we necessarily did it with the health and safety stuff but i think we did uh we saw i'm pretty sure we did something around stay put with them to help them then disseminate that
03:12:45 to help them then disseminate that information to their their members who may not be able to read or
03:12:50 read or uh or would necessarily engage with us in the ways that we would particularly want them to do so we would do so that sort of outreach work as well and so that taking that particular
03:13:01 and so that taking that particular example with the somali community and stay put
03:13:04 stay put was that work prompted by concerns amongst that community that uh its constituent members did not understand what to do in the case of a fire i don't
03:13:15 what to do in the case of a fire i don't know that for certain no i think it was general outreach work that we were doing with them and i think it was an opportunity for to to get a range of information like that i'm pretty sure that that was one of those pieces but i don't
03:13:26 pieces but i don't remember i don't think there was a specific
03:13:29 specific issue around health and safety that they had concerns about that they came to us with
03:13:33 with um did the fact of low translation requests
03:13:37 requests um cause any concern about how residents could understand information that was being provided mindful that there was a cohort of
03:13:48 mindful that there was a cohort of tenants residents who may not have english as a first language uh no
03:13:52 uh no not particularly i mean there were always issues and concerns around how any communication was being read generally
03:14:00 generally by the general population as to you know were you sending out information to it and
03:14:04 and was it getting ready you know there were circumstances i vaguely remember not specifics but of you know we'd sent letters to people and they hadn't bothered reading them and that wasn't a language issue that was a
03:14:15 that wasn't a language issue that was a you know people not bothering to read letters as we all do from time to time let us come in we don't necessarily read them on
03:14:19 them on nor not properly um so you know there was generally always work happening to try and
03:14:25 try and improve the engagement with uh residents so you know language was within that and it was done at road shows and things you know
03:14:33 know we would we would make sure that when we did when we went out on with road shows onto estates that we would
03:14:39 would make sure that we'd tell residents in person if you get a document and you can't read it please contact us and we'll get it translated for you finally is there anything that we've covered today or anything else we
03:14:50 covered today or anything else we haven't covered today which you feel would assist the panel's deliberations no i don't think so is there anything else you'd like to say uh no uh in those circumstances ms noble
03:15:01 uh no uh in those circumstances ms noble thank you very much for attending today to give evidence it's been very helpful indeed thank you yes mr neville and i'd like to thank you as well on behalf of the panel and myself for coming to give your evidence it has been very helpful
03:15:12 your evidence it has been very helpful to hear what you have to tell us and very useful to us okay so we're very grateful and thank you very much you aren't free to go thank you thank you very much should we say one 2 15
03:15:25 should we say one 2 15 2 15
03:15:30 good thank you very much well that's the point at which we ought to break for some lunch we'll resume at 2 15 please thank you very
03:15:46 much
03:15:50 you