Mark Anderson (former TMO Director of Assets and Regeneration) gives evidence about governance of fire safety, fire protection systems policy deficiencies, and the significant backlog of FRA actions. He admits there was a general view among some staff that health and safety was solely the health and safety team's responsibility.
00:00:18 yes mr canoe thank you sir a man called mark anderson right thank you
00:00:38 thank you good afternoon mr anderson welcome back you're going to take the app and make the affirmation i think is that right i am indeed mr german well the general members the words are on the screen
00:00:50 members the words are on the screen thank you very much i shall just get my
00:00:56 glasses okay i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare
00:01:03 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth good thank you very much yes thanks sir uh would you mind confirming your name for the record please mark anderson
00:01:15 for the record please mark anderson uh mr anson good afternoon thank you again um for coming to give evidence the inquiry
00:01:20 inquiry um in this module we'll be looking at the governance of fire safety by the tmo and your role in that and the role particularly relating to fire safety
00:01:31 relating to fire safety just to confirm again for the record you've made two statements the inquiry that deal with events leading up to the 14th of june 2017 and they are for the record uh the first statement dated the 12th of february
00:01:43 statement dated the 12th of february 2019
00:01:44 2019 which is at tm01048968 which i'll refer to as your first statement the second one dated the 5th of november 2019
00:01:57 tm00847-334 which i'll refer to as your second statement
00:02:02 statement mr anderson just some context questions to start off with first of all you started in the social housing sector with sanctuary housing in 1992 is that correct that's correct and you
00:02:14 is that correct that's correct and you joined the tmo in 2010
00:02:19 2011 2011 and before you joined the tmo did any of your roles involve the management of fire safety uh yes a number of them and can you just give some background as what those roles
00:02:31 give some background as what those roles were and the extent of your involvement in fire safety i'd i'd held equivalent roles with a number of
00:02:38 number of housing organizations prior to uh the role that i held with kensington chelsea tmo and what training did you have to enable you to manage fire safety and social
00:02:49 you to manage fire safety and social housing before you started work at the tma um i can't recall specifically what the uh the the training was um
00:03:01 uh the the training was um over the years they had i'd certainly myself attended a number of um are either organizationally organized
00:03:13 organizationally organized sorry organizationally facilitated external specialist facilitated or contractor servicing partner facilitated
00:03:25 contractor servicing partner facilitated sessions in relation to legislative requirements legislative changes and the way in which fire safety um arrangement should be managed but
00:03:37 um arrangement should be managed but that that was all part of broader uh health and safety and compliance aspects
00:03:44 aspects and what fire safety training did you receive whilst at the tma
00:03:50 um i can't recall specifically what they were
00:03:54 were i do recall that the hr team facilitated annual refresher training some of which did involve fire safety matters
00:04:07 did involve fire safety matters it also included matters relating to asbestos management electrical safety lifts
00:04:14 lifts water hygiene there were a number of seminars that i attended are either self-initiated or through professional
00:04:26 self-initiated or through professional bodies that i was a member of at the time
00:04:28 time in respect of cpd and things of a similar nature to that either online or in person thank you and did you receive any specific training on the requirements of
00:04:39 specific training on the requirements of the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 whilst at the tmo i recall that there were a number of sessions
00:04:48 sessions uh i can't recall who facilitated those um
00:04:51 um but i do remember uh that certainly one of them
00:04:55 of them was an external party that was in relation to the rro the requirements the rro and how that was applied or applicable
00:05:06 and how that was applied or applicable to
00:05:06 to social housing thank you and were you familiar
00:05:09 familiar with any of the specific guidance that published by the government in relation to fire safety matters and in particular the local government association's guidance on fire safety and purpose-built flats
00:05:20 fire safety and purpose-built flats which was published in 2011. i do recall seeing the lga guide apologies local government association guide
00:05:30 guide and i do recall there being a number of other
00:05:33 other summary guides that department for communities and local government published subsequently i'll take you through some of those did you read the lga guide
00:05:44 you read the lga guide um were you aware of his existence more than that i i was aware of his existence i can't recall whether i specifically read it i'd be surprised if i didn't and did you first of all were you aware
00:05:55 and did you first of all were you aware of lake core's guidance entitled housing fire safety guidance on fire safety provisions for certain types of existing housing i i do recall that being one of the supplementary guides
00:06:07 supplementary guides and did you receive any specific training on the lga guide or the late cause guide um i i don't recall specific training in relation to those
00:06:18 specific training in relation to those it was generally captured as much broader fire safety training or awareness sessions did you use the documents to inform
00:06:29 did you use the documents to inform yourself about the approach or best practice the management of fire safety in your work um as as i said earlier i i can't recall specifically but
00:06:45 i think there were there were general approaches within the social housing sector at that time in respect of fire safety management um and so i was aware of best practice at
00:06:57 and so i was aware of best practice at that time
00:06:58 that time thank you can we now turn to your role in
00:07:01 in the management of fire safety and if we go in particular to paragraph 67 to 70 of your first witness statement which can be found at tmo one double zero
00:07:12 zero four eight nine six eight forward slash 15
00:07:16 15 one five i'll invite you just to refresh your memory briefly by reading those uh four paragraphs
00:07:37 okay now in summary just to understand what the scope of your responsibility was is it right to understand that you're responsible for ensuring
00:07:47 ensuring that tmo had systems to assess its properties for health and safety risks correct and that role included ensuring that
00:07:55 that fire risk assessments were being undertaken for each relevant property correct and it was for the health and safety team to procure fire risk assessments and ensure that they were carried out correctly
00:08:08 they were carried out correctly that was their function within the tmo yes and
00:08:11 yes and you yourself relied on the health and safety teams reports and feedback in relation to the content and adequacy of fras
00:08:19 of fras yes and particularly you were not responsible for reviewing the findings of fras is that fair that's correct or to check that the actions arising out of the fras had been
00:08:32 actions arising out of the fras had been undertaken except in relation to your own department only if they were escalated to me um could you give us an idea what type of issues
00:08:42 of issues actions identified in fras would be escalated to you um generally speaking the process was that the
00:08:51 that the health and safety team would have reviewed the fras and any recommendations coming out of that they would have ensured that they were put onto the systems or brought the attention of individuals
00:09:02 or brought the attention of individuals within
00:09:03 within my directorate to action um usually the type of escalation i'm talking about is if uh there was an inordinate delay
00:09:15 is if uh there was an inordinate delay to the progression of that work thank you and if following on from that if you were aware that properties weren't being fire risk assessed would you be the one who is ultimately responsible for taking action to ensure
00:09:27 responsible for taking action to ensure that they were fire safeties fire risk assessed my my understanding was that that remit sat with the health and safety team
00:09:38 it would certainly be an obligation on me however to point out that i thought one had not been done or a number had not been done and flowing on from that if you were aware of a fire risk that hadn't been addressed
00:09:50 addressed ultimately you'd be responsible for taking action or ensuring that the relevant individual took action uh yes
00:09:58 although you're responsible for ensuring an appropriate system was in place is it right to say that you had no or little knowledge of the conclusions or reports arising from individual fras
00:10:11 individual fras that's correct or the scope of those reports
00:10:14 reports correct how frequently the fras themselves were carried out uh correct or indeed by whom um my understanding was that the fras
00:10:27 um my understanding was that the fras at the time i was employed by the tmo was that they were undertaken by mr karl stokes okay now given the nature and extent of your responsibilities and what you didn't
00:10:39 responsibilities and what you didn't know
00:10:40 know um could you help the panel on how you could exercise effective responsibility for ensuring that the tmo had adequate fire risk assessment procedures in place
00:10:51 procedures in place uh fire risk assessment procedures or fire management procedures well should we fire risk assessment procedures the question i asked so in terms in terms of the fire risk assessment procedures
00:11:02 assessment procedures uh there was a policy uh that set out the requirements in relation to fire risk assessments um that was quite clear that that was a function performed by the health and
00:11:14 a function performed by the health and safety team the health and safety team prior to my starting had procured the services i can't recall the name of the the consultancy do you think you sell this
00:11:27 consultancy do you think you sell this no no this is the one that mr stokes uh was procured through uh i can't recall the name of his consultancy business um
00:11:39 consultancy business um and that there was a specification of requirements he was engaged to provide that service those fire risk assessments were in
00:11:50 those fire risk assessments were in accordance with guidance at the time and they were managed and administered by the health and safety team actions arising from those fire risk
00:12:02 actions arising from those fire risk assessments were then notified by the health and safety team to individual parts of the organization with responsibility for ensuring that those
00:12:12 those actions were closed so it was the existence
00:12:17 existence if i can summarize your evidence and say so if this is done unfairly you are satisfied that as a result of the arrangements under the policy
00:12:27 that appropriate procedures were in place for discharging obligations in respect of fire risk assessment uh yes because it would be the policy that i would refer back to in terms of what the what was the policy what were the requirements what was the
00:12:39 what were the requirements what was the process
00:12:39 process now you're attempting i think to draw a distinction between fra fire risk assessment and fire management would you explain to the panel the distinction you're seeking to apply here um
00:12:49 here um fire fire management is a much broader process and far risk assessments are part of a fire management strategy or or process
00:13:04 strategy or or process now if we can turn to paragraph 19 of your second witness statement which is at tm0084734 forward slash five
00:13:23 now you say this i was not involved in overseeing the tmos fr fire risk assessment program however if an action arising from the program was assigned to my directorate
00:13:34 program was assigned to my directorate this would be progressed by the respective teams under my management i had no role in ensuring that the fra program
00:13:40 program complied with the regulatory reform fire safety order as this was the responsibility of the tmos health and safety team now in paragraph 67 of your first statement
00:13:51 statement you say that you're responsible for ensuring that an fra program was in place yet here you seem to be saying
00:13:59 saying that you had no involvement in overseeing the program first of all is there a difference between what you're saying in your first and second statements if so can you explain
00:14:11 second statements if so can you explain that difference yes so yes there is a difference um in in the first statement that relates to my role as director of
00:14:22 to my role as director of ultimately assets and regeneration and needing to be satisfied that there was an fra
00:14:27 an fra program in place in this statement at paragraph 19 what i'm actually talking about is the program itself the delivery of the program of fras and that
00:14:38 delivery of the program of fras and that was very much the remit of the health and safety team uh now it
00:14:48 your responsibility and apologies for just going back just to clarify this but your responsibility appears to be ensuring that actions highlighted by fras would be completed by the team to which the action had been allocated
00:14:59 which the action had been allocated i think you're nodding is that fair that's correct would you also then accept as the consequence that if an action had not been completed or had not been completed within the specified time
00:15:10 within the specified time that too was your responsibility for sorting out correct and that goes back to my earlier point about those issues that were escalated because generally what would happen is
00:15:21 because generally what would happen is they'd be assigned to an officer if that wasn't resolved to the health and safety team satisfaction it would be raised with the manager if that wasn't then resolved it would be
00:15:32 if that wasn't then resolved it would be escalated to me so you weren't so much monitoring compliance with fras it came across your desk when something wasn't done i.e your role was reactive
00:15:44 wasn't done i.e your role was reactive rather than proactive that's correct my understanding is that the monitoring was undertaken by the health and safety team and reported up through there were a number of health
00:15:55 through there were a number of health and safety for within kctmo thank you looking further on the extent of your responsibilities first of all were you responsible for
00:16:06 first of all were you responsible for investment in fire safety measures yes um planned maintenance of fire safety measures yes management of fire safety measures in tmo or rbkc assets or stock
00:16:18 in tmo or rbkc assets or stock correct responsive repairs to fire safety
00:16:22 safety measures no and why'd you say that was outside your roommate uh there were two separate teams there was assets and regeneration and then there was um i'm trying to
00:16:36 and then there was um i'm trying to recall what their their title was but they dealt with responsive repairs they weren't part of my directorate
00:16:46 but did you have a responsibility to ensure that any contracts let by your team
00:16:51 team would ensure compliance with fire safety legislation and requirements uh where applicable yes and how did you ensure
00:16:59 ensure that compliance in relation to your last question to the contracts yes um generally they were included as um requirements within the uh
00:17:10 requirements within the uh specification and the tender documentation requirements
00:17:14 and so that's the sort of general requirements you see in contracts saying you must comply with the health and safety of work act etc uh what you've got in mind i think that's a very basic approach um i i think
00:17:28 basic approach um i i think in some instances you could be a lot more sophisticated and uh detailed than that were you um where it was necessary yes and where was what types of contract would it be necessary to be more
00:17:39 would it be necessary to be more specific and sophisticated for me if there was one that particularly related to uh fire fire safety matters or fire safety management
00:17:50 management then i would expect there to be a lot more detail about the expectations of the client as an organization of that service provider or consultant thank you now can we turn to the tmo's health and safety policy which can be
00:18:02 health and safety policy which can be found at tm01031076
00:18:13 and we can see in the bottom left-hand corner of the first page it's dated december 2012 and so that would be current just as you were coming to the end of your time at the tmo is that right correct now if we could go to page three
00:18:28 correct now if we could go to page three and paragraph 2.8 in particular
00:18:32 and that sets out the scope of responsibility of the operations directorate and it says the director is responsible for first resident safety in particular
00:18:43 resident safety in particular in the areas of fire safety gas safety electrical safety legionella prevention and water quality and lift safety taking a joint role with the health and safety team and managing asbestos at
00:18:54 safety team and managing asbestos at work
00:18:55 work monitoring the health and safety performance of the contractors under their control and organizing an asset and regeneration and repairs health and safety group consisting of all technical managers and health and safety to meet at least
00:19:06 health and safety to meet at least bi-monthly and provide a forum for discussion and monitoring health and safety issues across the service area now at first blush that would suggest that the operations directorate your
00:19:18 the operations directorate your directorate had a significant operational involvement in health and safety would you agree yes uh in particular a responsibility for resident fire
00:19:29 a responsibility for resident fire safety would you agree with that yes and that would have required significant competent management from the operational side correct and significant oversight from you
00:19:40 and significant oversight from you presumably also at an operational level or at a strategic level operational level first uh to to an extent yes and what was that extent uh i i
00:19:53 and what was that extent uh i i in turn would rely on my service managers to have much more operational involvement and knowledge of the the detail around fire safety
00:20:05 of the the detail around fire safety and what was the extent of your strategic oversight of these responsibilities in relation to resident fire safety um it would be much more about the um were we broadly meeting the requirements
00:20:17 were we broadly meeting the requirements of health and safety policy were we broadly as an organization looking to evolve the service so that we addressed future demand
00:20:28 addressed future demand or a rising legislation etc thank you now um one of the areas for which you were responsible your directorate was the tmos fire protection systems policy is that right
00:20:40 policy is that right um as in the writing of the policy writing and application take writing first of all yes with support from other parts of the
00:20:52 yes with support from other parts of the the organization well let's look at minutes from the tmos assets and regeneration health and safety group meeting on may in may 2012 and we can find those at tm00869805
00:21:13 now we see in the top of that it was chaired by a jay borah can you remind us first of all who he was and what his position was uh john bora and he was
00:21:25 uh john bora and he was a policy and performance manager within the
00:21:30 the assets and regeneration team and would you
00:21:33 you have chaired that meeting at any time during your tenure at the tmo [Music]
00:21:42 i may have chaired the initial meeting that i attended um so when you started in 2011 yeah yeah mr chairman yes would it be okay if i took my jacket off
00:21:54 would it be okay if i took my jacket off of course it would yes thank you i should say mister and if you need a break anytime just shout it's just rather warm no no you you make yourself comfortable thank you
00:22:05 yourself comfortable thank you and you've got some water there yes thank you
00:22:12 thank you thank you very much uh mr anderson you said you you you may have chaired the initial meeting um why did you not chair the subsequent ones
00:22:21 ones uh i i it would appear i delegated that to john borah and was there a specific reason for doing so um john john's wrong was very much looking
00:22:33 john john's wrong was very much looking at
00:22:33 at policy and the performance and making sure that we were according with those requirements if if i recall correctly there was
00:22:44 if if i recall correctly there was so this was assets and regeneration there was another health and safety group which i believe was tmo wide and there was also a performance group
00:22:55 and there was also a performance group um
00:22:56 um both of which i attended on occasion but didn't chair uh no now if we could turn to page five of these minutes in particular item eleven point zero
00:23:08 particular item eleven point zero and then we see policy procedures new currently under review and we see it 11.7 fire protection systems final draft with m a for final
00:23:19 systems final draft with m a for final comment
00:23:19 comment um first of all presumably that m a is you
00:23:23 you uh correct and if we might be useful to look at that policy and the version i'd like you to look at is dated the 10th of february 2012 and that could be found at
00:23:35 that could be found at zero eight seven zero nine double three could i just check the date of these minutes again of course yes that was may was it exactly so thank you
00:23:48 exactly so thank you may 2012. and so this is dated as you see on the top 10th of february 2012 and what i might do is just invite you to
00:24:00 what i might do is just invite you to skim read it briefly it's a very short document but the point i'm going to put to you is that there is no mention in that policy of any fire strategy or the tmo health and safety policy
00:24:12 and safety policy and i'd be grateful for your explanation as to why those matters would not have been
00:24:16 been addressed here but i'll just let you conf satisfy yourself that those matters aren't mentioned there
00:24:36 okay
00:24:51 thank you
00:24:58 okay
00:25:05 right
00:25:11 now you've had a look at that mr anderson can you explain why that document didn't refer to the fire safety strategy or the tmo's health and safety policy i can't i can only presume that as this
00:25:24 i can't i can only presume that as this was
00:25:25 was uh the the the the tmo health and safety policy was an overarching document and this fed underneath it um in hindsight i think it should have made reference to them
00:25:36 made reference to them and simile looking at the fire safety strategy in particular given that the subject of this policy is fire protection systems um one would ordinarily expect is it
00:25:48 um one would ordinarily expect is it fair to say reference the fire safety strategy in such a policy i think that would be a good thing yes and again
00:25:56 and again for the avoidance that you can't explain why it's not in there no now could we go back in this document to the second page and paragraph 1.2 in particular
00:26:07 page and paragraph 1.2 in particular and if that could be expanded
00:26:12 and there we have a list of six
00:26:17 systems identified can you help us again in a policy concerned with fire protection systems there is no mention of the smoke control systems
00:26:28 systems can you help us as to why not
00:26:36 no i don't know why it's not specifically highlighted as or identified as a category
00:26:44 category um can you help us to why there is no detail regarding planned preventative maintenance um particularly to communal fire doors or door closers
00:26:58 my my recollection is that the fire door closer servicing and maintenance and the fire doors themselves were
00:27:09 and the fire doors themselves were captured under the responsive repairs maintenance contracts and in relation to lifts because there's no mention of lifts there either where would that be captured
00:27:24 my recollection was that there was also a lift policy or procedure there's no reference to those policies or procedures in in this document though is there no there's not well certainly not from
00:27:36 no there's not well certainly not from what i've seen and there's no reference to any other policy documents whether by reference or encouragement to read when looking at this policy no there does appear to be an overall
00:27:48 no there does appear to be an overall absence of cross-referencing to other policies
00:27:51 policies [Music]
00:27:53 [Music] would your department have been responsible for um overseeing the work planned preventative maintenance service visits in relation to these
00:28:01 to these six identified systems yes
00:28:06 now staying on that page can we look at paragraph 2.1 under the heading purpose and it says the purpose of this procedure note is to identify the action to be taken by the
00:28:17 identify the action to be taken by the tmo
00:28:17 tmo following a report of a breakdown or malfunction to any element outlined in 1.2 above
00:28:24 1.2 above now the purpose of this procedure is reactive not preventative is that a fair summary um looking at what's set out in para 2.1
00:28:38 looking at what's set out in para 2.1 it's following a report of a breakdown on malfunction yes i'm just wondering where the procedure note is uh could you refer to this as a policy would you want to go back to the
00:28:50 would you want to go back to the covering page uh if that would be possible yes so it's policy and procedural procedure yeah
00:28:58 yeah okay so if we go back to 2.1 would you accept looking at what is set out in 2.1 that the procedure is reactive not
00:29:10 preventative
00:29:21 in the context of that sentence yes because as you pointed out it's it's about action taken following report of a breakdown on malfunction and would you agree that there's no
00:29:33 and would you agree that there's no reference to any other document which sets out the regime for routine maintenance inspection and testing um would you like to refresh your memory
00:29:44 um would you like to refresh your memory oh i disagree that there's no other documents um there are what i know the question wasn't that the question was would you agree that there's no reference in this policy and procedure document
00:29:55 procedure document to any other document which sets out a regime for routine maintenance inspection and testing
00:30:03 well on the six points above there is reference to planned preventative maintenance and there is a schedule monthly quarterly and annually for sprinklers for example
00:30:15 sprinklers for example and you'd say that's sufficient
00:30:19 for for a policy document in its basic sense yes
00:30:23 sense yes i would expect as well that there are other documents the contracts for example which set out in much more detail the planned
00:30:34 in much more detail the planned preventative maintenance regime and the site visit regime and what was required of those or on a routine basis those documents aren't referenced here though are they
00:30:46 though are they they're not and i i wouldn't necessarily expect them to be referenced to that level of detail but i think it would have probably been useful to have made reference to
00:30:59 useful to have made reference to the fact that there were contractual arrangements that set out the detail can you remember who drafted this policy and procedure note
00:31:11 my recollection in relation to all of the policies were particularly those related to assets and regeneration was that john bora took lead on them uh with support from other parts of the
00:31:26 uh with support from other parts of the corporate structure within the organization and but ultimately uh were you responsible for signing it off
00:31:37 uh i was i i was responsible for agreeing it and then taking it up through executive for
00:31:44 for approval and
00:31:50 we can go back just to remind you could we go back to tm00869805
00:32:03 and if we go to page five and item 11.7 if we look at fire protection systems final draft with m.a for final comment you had an
00:32:16 m.a for final comment you had an opportunity to make good any deficiencies in the draft before it was signed off would you agree with that correct can you therefore explain why there are no detailed
00:32:29 why there are no detailed or no reference at all to the fire safety strategy and health and safety policy
00:32:33 policy i i can't and when you accept it it would be
00:32:38 would be prudent and best practice to do so uh yes indeed and you can't explain why there's no more detail other than regularity regarding the
00:32:49 other than regularity regarding the uh maintenance inspection testing regimes is that fair could you repeat that please yes um are you able to provide an explanation as to why you made no
00:33:00 an explanation as to why you made no comments
00:33:01 comments to ensure that there was more detail other than regularity about routine maintenance inspection testing of those six systems set out in the policy i'm not able to recall what comments i
00:33:12 i'm not able to recall what comments i did make
00:33:15 so i can't answer your question
00:33:21 ultimately who is responsible for ensuring that this policy and procedure document is sufficient to meet the tmo's legal obligations under the 2005 fire safety order
00:33:36 um
00:33:40 i'm not sure who the delegated responsible person was within the tmo
00:33:48 the tmo um i don't recall who that was would it have been
00:33:52 have been janice ray or would it have been higher up beyond her at executive level i i would have expected um from my knowledge of the tmo at that time that it would have been a member of
00:34:03 it would have been a member of executive ultimately would have been the ceo
00:34:07 ceo it it may well have been but i can't say for certain that it was um and just looking at 11.9 yes on on that document there is
00:34:18 yes on on that document there is reference
00:34:18 reference there to the health and safety committee which was the tmo health and safety committee
00:34:23 committee and these documents being taken to that committee
00:34:27 committee for sign off and adoption [Music]
00:34:31 [Music] so it may be that it's in their terms of reference
00:34:34 reference and can you remember did janice ray in your recollection sit on the health and safety committee or was it the executive uh responsible director for health and safety my recollection is that janice attended
00:34:45 my recollection is that janice attended i don't know if she was a standing member
00:34:48 member thank you now if i can return to the topic of fras actions that came from significant findings in the action plans of carl stokes
00:34:57 stokes were appended to each of the fras he prepared is that correct was that your understanding or recollection from my limited awareness of individual
00:35:09 from my limited awareness of individual fras at the time yes that's correct did you ever see either the fras themselves or the significant findings and action plans or by the time it got to you was it just
00:35:21 or by the time it got to you was it just specific
00:35:22 specific matters identified for you um on occasion i did have sight of individual fras and that generally arose out of an
00:35:33 and that generally arose out of an inquiry
00:35:33 inquiry of janice ray about a particular fra
00:35:41 as to the schedule of actions arising from that either individually or globally no i didn't view those okay would you have been aware that carl
00:35:53 okay would you have been aware that carl stokes color coded the actions in terms of priority my understanding was that he did adopt a red amber green type approach did the
00:36:04 a red amber green type approach did the information that was given to you include color coding of actions by priority
00:36:10 priority so you knew how far behind they were or whether it be done at all and the nature of a delay if that was relevant i don't recall seeing that in in any of the escalations that came to my attention
00:36:22 my attention did the escalations that came to your attention would they include details of time scale when something was meant to have been done what's happened and why there's a delay yes they would
00:36:35 would you accept that the fact an action has been identified in an fra may indicate an increased risk to residents
00:36:45 residents my personal belief is that any action that's identified in fra is a risk and would you accept the consequence that an action or an action that was left unfinished timelessly may mean that the
00:36:57 unfinished timelessly may mean that the tmo
00:36:58 tmo was in breach or potentially in breach of its legal obligations under the fire safety order it could do yes
00:37:04 yes and potentially subject to prosecution yes and your team had a responsibility to clear
00:37:12 to clear actions allocated to it by health and safety is that correct that's correct now could we turn to tmo double zero eight treble nine
00:37:23 double zero eight treble nine six five
00:37:35 six five [Music]
00:37:37 [Music] thank you and these are minutes of an executive team meeting on the uh 7th of july 2011. and if we can go to page 2 you're not present at this meeting i
00:37:49 2 you're not present at this meeting i should make clear
00:37:52 item three health and safety annual report
00:37:56 report and then going over the to the next page the second bullet point from the top
00:38:02 it says mark anderson and andy marshall would attend health and safety committee for asset management engineering as there was concern about the level of attendance there was a tendency for staff to think
00:38:13 there was a tendency for staff to think of this area as solely janus ray's responsibility did anyone raise with you a concern that health and safety was treated solely as janet ray's responsibility
00:38:27 i i don't recall that conversation you remember
00:38:32 remember any uh mood or a general feeling
00:38:38 that it was being treated solely as her concern rather than across the group i i think um and i can only answer for assets from regeneration or assets investment and engineering as it was at that time um
00:38:51 that time um that there was a general view among uh some members of the team uh that anything to do with health and safety was the responsibility of the health and safety team
00:39:02 health and safety team and over a fairly short period of time they were re-educated on that matter uh who were those individuals first of all i i i can't recall exactly
00:39:14 i i i can't recall exactly who the individuals were um but i am aware that there was a a general view from some people within the team
00:39:22 the team that if it was a health and safety matter right its health and safety team rather than actually we all have a role in health and safety and ensuring
00:39:34 in health and safety and ensuring that risks etc are identified actioned and mitigated can you remember who led the re-education to use your phrase
00:39:42 phrase um i i certainly recall leading some of that
00:39:46 that did anyone else assist you in that endeavor uh janice raided and
00:39:54 lornette pemberton and by the time you left in january 2013 did you feel that those efforts had been successful to a lesser or greater extent
00:40:05 uh there'd certainly been a significant improvement in in taking ownership um and rec and and individuals recognizing their role in the process
00:40:16 role in the process um had we resolved everything um i don't i don't think any organization can say if it resolves everything but but it was it was very minimal
00:40:28 but but it was it was very minimal um would you have attended the tmo health and safety these meetings
00:40:35 as opposed to the sort of asset and regeneration health and safety so this this appears to be the tmo health and safety committee i do remember attending some of those
00:40:46 i do remember attending some of those meetings
00:40:47 meetings and would there be other formal informal groups you'd attend at which fire safety matters would be discussed can you remember now uh the uh um
00:41:00 there were certainly discussions around fire safety and uh health and safety and compliance more broadly they were so starting at my my directorate with
00:41:14 my directorate with my my management team or so the managers within my team whenever we had our team meetings the um health and safety was a standing item on our on our meetings
00:41:26 our on our meetings if there was a need to [Music]
00:41:30 [Music] support that manager with their team then there would be discussions there i know there was the assets and regeneration the repairs health and safety groups i only tended
00:41:43 health and safety groups i only tended to
00:41:43 to to attend those if i was asked to attend the corporate health and safety ones which i believe this one is referring to again if i was asked to attend i would
00:41:54 again if i was asked to attend i would be doing that a lot of the uh the conversations i would have around health and safety tended to either be with janice as the manager for the health and safety team
00:42:05 manager for the health and safety team or at this particular point in time with lawnette pemberton um and can you remind us of what her role
00:42:12 role was at the time you were at the tmo she was i believe it was director of people and performance okay now could i
00:42:23 people and performance okay now could i ask you now to look at minutes of a tmo health and safety committee meeting on the 21st november 2012 and we can find those at tm01201783
00:42:40 now mindful of that date mr anderson 21st november 2012 would that have been the last tmo health and safety meeting you attended before you left in january 2013
00:42:51 you left in january 2013 uh it
00:42:55 uh it doesn't have me down as an attendee sorry
00:43:00 third point would would you have attended one after between november 2012 and january 2013 i i may have done if there if there had been one
00:43:12 been one now can you look at item one on the first page which says many of the items on the fra action plans do not appear to be being progressed with a necessary degree of priority this
00:43:23 with a necessary degree of priority this continues to give concern and is likely to be highlighted by the imminent council audit of our fra procedures and then the action the far-right box exec team to note
00:43:34 exec team to note and discuss with their teams now can you help us
00:43:37 help us with how this system was meant to work was the intention that anthony parks would raise it executive team level first of all
00:43:48 are you able to flesh out the bare bones of what's set out here given that anthony parks is the chair and and was the executive
00:44:01 is the chair and and was the executive team member there uh i i i deduced that he would have the conversation with his fellow executive directors um and that they in turn were would discuss
00:44:15 and that they in turn were would discuss it with
00:44:16 it with their directors assistant directors heads of service am i right apologies my memory may be wrong was sasha jevons your exec director at that stage
00:44:24 stage um at the end of 2012. i i can't remember exactly when uh the executive director title was adopted it would appear that it was towards the
00:44:35 it would appear that it was towards the end of 2012 so on on that basis yes and if if that's so mindful of the the caveats you you've given um did sasha jevens
00:44:46 sasha jevens ever discuss this question uh the absence of a necessary degree of priority to fra actions with you before you left i i do recall that there were instances where fra
00:44:58 that there were instances where fra actions were discussed at sasha's management team meetings um i don't recall as having a a one-to-one
00:45:09 don't recall as having a a one-to-one discussion about it and did can you remember any meeting or any discussion when she said you what are your proposals for sorting out any backlog insofar as it
00:45:20 sorting out any backlog insofar as it concerned assets and regeneration
00:45:25 as i said there were discussions at um the uh the operations directorate management team um uh
00:45:36 management team um uh i can't recall was what was actually said at those i do recall that there were
00:45:41 were there were discussions around fire safety
00:45:44 safety okay um can we next look at minutes um from the tmo assets and regeneration and repairs health and safety group meeting um on the 13th of december 2012. are you
00:45:57 on the 13th of december 2012. are you just before you left they are at tmo one treble zero one eight five zero
00:46:10 again you're not at the meeting but would you have received and read the minutes
00:46:19 my recollection is that i did get copies of the minutes and i also received we um or i had this as a standing item on on
00:46:31 or i had this as a standing item on on our
00:46:32 our management team agenda um so these were and anything flowing out of this would be fed back by john bora or mike halliman or ricky sams thank you
00:46:42 thank you now if we could go to page 3 and in particular item 6.0 which is fire risk assessment progress update and if we look at 6.2 and if that could be expanded
00:46:54 and if that could be expanded outstanding actions it says a significant number of actions remain outstanding which is a cause for concern all were asked to ensure that these are progressed with actions progress evidenced and confirmed to health and
00:47:06 evidenced and confirmed to health and safety team asap action all now that minute would suggest that certainly as at december 2012 a backlog had arisen within the a r department would you
00:47:18 within the a r department would you accept that as a fair summary would you mind if we just went back to the course the first page of course
00:47:30 um the the reason i asked to go back to the first page i just wanted to check that it's not just assets and regeneration there was repairs as well um please
00:47:41 um please go to the the next page thank you to the page we were looking at yeah yeah thank you that's it sorry your question again would you accept that certainly by december 2012 there was a significant
00:47:53 december 2012 there was a significant backlog
00:47:54 backlog of fra actions attributable to the a r directorate um from that minute it is stating that there are a significant number of actions that remain outstanding
00:48:06 actions that remain outstanding what it doesn't say is whether they're to do with assets and regenerations and repairs i i suspect that it was to do with both so it may have been day-to-day
00:48:17 so it may have been day-to-day responsive repairs as well as uh planned preventative maintenance or capital investment aspects the absence of distinction between a and r and repairs generally was suggested it
00:48:29 and repairs generally was suggested it applied to both wouldn't it uh yes yes and i i accept that contention can you recall at this stage what actions were in fact taken from december onwards before you left
00:48:40 from december onwards before you left the next january to uh deal with the backlog i i can't recall exactly what action uh was taken
00:48:50 was taken um i could outline what i believe i would have done that would be can we deal with first of all are you able to say that action was taken to deal with the backlog of
00:49:01 was taken to deal with the backlog of fra
00:49:01 fra actions 2012. on reviewing these minutes i would not have
00:49:08 have not taken action but can you identify what that action was though um the i can't give the specific detail because i can't recall that
00:49:19 i can't recall that um however what i would have been doing was sitting down with my management team and individual managers and their teams once we've established right what
00:49:30 once we've established right what actions are sitting with you why are these outstanding what's the proposal for resolving them um and and how that gets carried forward not only that i'd be expecting them as
00:49:41 not only that i'd be expecting them as part of that process to feed back into the health and safety team as well apologies at some time eight or so years ago now when you hand it over to your successor
00:49:53 it over to your successor can you remember whether you briefed on what you were doing to clear the significant backlog of fra repairs in your or i should say the backlog of repairs in relation to
00:50:04 the backlog of repairs in relation to your department i i recall having two or three meetings with peter madison whom i presume you're referring to um i had two or three meetings with him
00:50:17 um i had two or three meetings with him um
00:50:17 um i did do a briefing uh pack which i shared with sasha jevons i don't know if that then got shared with peter madison because there was a a gap
00:50:29 peter madison because there was a a gap between us my departure his arrival a backlog of january 2013 tends to suggest that the processes for monitoring and implementing fra
00:50:40 monitoring and implementing fra actions for your department was inadequate or at least not working effectively is that a proposition with which you'd agree or not
00:50:53 yes i would um and that's primarily because the data sat in lots of different locations um it was quite cumbersome could we that's it could we
00:51:04 it could we look at that in certainly more detail mrs that's interesting because it'd be it would assist the panel in understanding looking now what you considered the
00:51:15 looking now what you considered the problems to be as to why a backlog of actions had arisen um
00:51:24 i think that probably the biggest one um was in relation to the time frame that was being set in fras for resolving um
00:51:35 in fras for resolving um an action
00:51:38 and that are you basically saying it was too tight
00:51:43 too tight it wasn't realistic it didn't recognize how much time certain things would actually take so for example on a lot of the mechanical systems you mentioned
00:51:57 mechanical systems you mentioned automatic opening vents earlier smoke control systems a lot of the systems were over 30 years old
00:52:04 old and required bespoke manufactured parts to carry out repairs there's a lead-in time to those sorts of things and so when you get an fra action that says
00:52:14 that says has to be completed within seven days that just wasn't achievable but what happens though in respect of a system
00:52:22 system where the priority and fra the risk assessors concluded that it was a high priority action and concluded that say for example seven days is necessary and reasonable bearing
00:52:33 days is necessary and reasonable bearing in mind the risk how do you ensure that that risk is eliminated or mitigated within the time frame advised by the in by the fra yeah and and that's where you then start looking at interim measures
00:52:44 measures um you know is is there something we could do as an interim arrangement do we ramp up the number of inspections we're doing so that we have daily inspections
00:52:55 inspections as opposed to weekly or monthly inspections so those types of mitigating measures one of the earlier reasons you were identifying for there being a backlog was information being held
00:53:07 was information being held in disparate uh silos want a better phrase or putting words into your mouth within the organization first of all is that a fair summary of the point you were you were making to the panel i accept your analogy of silos
00:53:21 i accept your analogy of silos and given that you're at the tmo for um a period of time nudging two years first of all what had you done to make
00:53:32 first of all what had you done to make your points your concerns about the timing of fra actions um presumably to janice ray um i i i'd had conversations with janice and lornette about
00:53:44 and lornette about um the the time frames being set uh around certain elements um and i know that my managers had had discussions not only with janice
00:53:57 had had discussions not only with janice ray but also with mr stokes
00:54:01 generally speaking the managers they met with mr stokes whenever he came into the office and certainly on a monthly basis and that was part of the the way in
00:54:13 and that was part of the the way in which they provided him with satisfaction that uh planned maintenance regimes were in process or being completed
00:54:24 were in process or being completed in terms of the other actions um so for from my perspective it was there was academy which was the housing system w-2 which was uh
00:54:36 which was uh um a document management type system um there was keystone uh there were spreadsheets
00:54:48 uh there were spreadsheets there were contract managers project managers
00:54:52 managers engineers diaries all of which were holding data in relation to different aspects of the service
00:55:03 service and the ultimate goal was to get all of that migrated into one stroke two locations not the vast number that existed at that point in time
00:55:13 time if i can stop you there mr anderson um you mentioned let's go back to the time frame and fras the discussions you were having with janice and lornette were they verbal discussions opposed to
00:55:25 were they verbal discussions opposed to email discussions they may well have been both can you remember when you first raised timing issues with health and safety
00:55:35 safety and lawnette
00:55:40 i i can't remember a specific date i certainly know that it was in my first year of being at kc during the course of 2011 yes yeah
00:55:52 kc during the course of 2011 yes yeah did it cause you sufficient concern that you yourself felt it had to be escalated to your executive director
00:56:00 um
00:56:04 i i recall that there was a broader discussion about data and the locations i i don't recall there being a need at
00:56:15 i don't recall there being a need at that point in time to escalate the issue about time frame being set within fras because that was a conversation being had with
00:56:26 that was a conversation being had with janus with lawnette and and also with mr stokes um and trying to set the context within which
00:56:35 which um he could have a better understanding of the constraints we were or challenges we were facing um but it was also looking at what what mitigating measures we could potentially put in place as well
00:56:47 put in place as well looking again at the information point had been held in different silos you said there was a broader discussion first of all was there a recognition that the disparate spread of
00:56:58 disparate spread of information was a an unhelpful state of affairs
00:57:03 affairs and if so when did that when was that first identified what's your knowledge that that discussion was was in 2011 i believe that the organization had been having discussions prior
00:57:14 prior to my joining um because uh there were certainly um forgive me i'm trying to remember the name of it um
00:57:27 name of it um it was an electronic document management system uh that was being talked about as a
00:57:32 a as a potential solution that within assets and regeneration there was also we were talking about keystone had recently been procured
00:57:44 keystone had recently been procured and implemented that that had the potential of being developed further keystone was an independent company at that point in time and they were
00:57:55 that point in time and they were through their user group they were talking about having a compliance module so it was exploring those types of solutions
00:58:04 solutions that would aid us in streamlining the process making it much more efficient and also making our data capture much broader
00:58:12 broader and much more accurate do you remember janice ray making the point that the disparate spread of information was impeding the efficient discharge of health and safety obligations um i don't remember her making that
00:58:23 i don't remember her making that specific point no did she ever make the point that the disparate spread of information was preventing the efficient and timely closing down of fra significant actions
00:58:36 closing down of fra significant actions uh yes she made that point i made that point lawnette made that point um and that was what led us to that conversation about right how do we resolve this how do we speed that process up and so
00:58:47 how do we speed that process up and so by the time you left in january 2013 first of all in respect of timing of fra actions
00:58:53 actions did you feel from your perspective that there was a greater sensitivity to practical demands in relation to timings as recommended by mr stokes and his fras
00:59:05 mr stokes and his fras um i i i wouldn't necessarily say there'd been a reduction in the timing in his fras i i certainly from the conversations i'd
00:59:16 i i certainly from the conversations i'd had with mr stokes there was a better understanding of the challenges that we were facing and there was a recognition that in some instances we were putting interim measures in place and in relation to the infamous the
00:59:28 and in relation to the infamous the disparate spread of information point did you consider that when you left in january 13 um steps were being taken to address that problem
00:59:39 that problem certainly yes because i i know the electronic document management system there had been progress and traction on that side on keystone there'd been steps forward there i i think in 2013 there was a planned
00:59:54 i i think in 2013 there was a planned enhancement an upgrade to keystone that was envisaged as well so that was part of the work we've done in 2012. thank you um i'm now going to turn to a different topic which is fire door replacement okay um now um in your first statement
01:00:08 okay um now um in your first statement of paragraph 13 you referred to the flat fire door replacement program and stated for which i had no direct responsibility was the program carried out under the
01:00:19 was the program carried out under the auspices of your directorate my my recollection both from my experience of it and from
01:00:32 guidance hours provided by russell thompson
01:00:35 thompson who was there immediately prior to me joining and lornette pemberton was that um assets investment in engineering at that point in time um was providing contract management
01:00:48 um was providing contract management and project management support to the health and safety team and that it was their program so support yes rather than responsible yes and
01:00:58 and did it flow from that that those managing the project did not report to you
01:01:03 you that's correct
01:01:06 do you think that your director had an obligation to ensure that the programs were in so far as you're providing support
01:01:14 support that the flat door replacement program was being carried out effectively
01:01:22 i don't know whether it was being carried out effectively or not certainly what i did notice throughout 2011
01:01:29 2011 was that there was an increasing need for assets and regeneration involvement and support to facilitate the conclusion of that program now
01:01:40 program now um abigail acosta was the project manager for the program is that right that's correct and when you started she reported directly to you um there was the um the assistant
01:01:52 um there was the um the assistant director
01:01:53 director post was held vacant for a period of time so there was a period of time where uh i directly managed uh the project managers
01:02:02 managers and then mike halimann started and she reported to him that's correct and can you remember for how long now um you were
01:02:11 you were managing abigail acosta um it was a number of months but i can't recall exactly how many when you started impose did you ask
01:02:22 when you started impose did you ask abigail acosta to brief you at all on the the scope and progress of the program
01:02:27 program i'd when i joined kctmo i received a briefing in fact i received a number of briefings in in the run-up to
01:02:38 in in the run-up to joining from russell thompson
01:02:43 i then met with each of the individual project managers and service heads to understand from them what their challenges were also what their workload was exist i'm
01:02:55 also what their workload was exist i'm sorry to interrupt just focused on that sorry sorry um yes we would have touched on that particular project in term or program in terms of and and even from her perspective i
01:03:08 and and even from her perspective i recall that she was she very much saw it as supporting health and safety to deliver that program and so um so was your contact with about abigail acosta not just limited to those few
01:03:20 acosta not just limited to those few months when she reported directly to you it was throughout the course of the programme whilst you were at the tmo uh there there were some issues that arose subsequent to
01:03:33 issues that arose subsequent to mike halliman starting which um mike and i had discussions about abby and i had discussions about so yes
01:03:44 abby and i had discussions about so yes and what were those discussions you say discussion about abby the the the one that primarily sticks in my mind is uh the treatment of leaseholders flat
01:03:55 uh the treatment of leaseholders flat entrance doors we'll come on to that later thank you um so would cont after mike allen joined would your contact with abigail lacoste be
01:04:05 be as and when she required support from you
01:04:10 um
01:04:19 yes although i i would have expected that she would have had an initial discussion with mike and did you require her proactively to report to you um once mike halliman had
01:04:30 mike halliman had come into pose and it's a proactive sense
01:04:34 sense um i think my my approach with any mit members was that
01:04:41 that i was accessible to them if they had issues of concern they could come and talk to me about it regardless of where they were in in in the hierarchy of the structure
01:04:52 in in the hierarchy of the structure um flowing from that can you give the panel an idea of how frequently mike hellermann would report to you in relation to the door replacement program just in relation to that program um
01:05:04 relation to that program um mike and i would have um certainly weekly sit-down discussions um uh where we we may touch on uh issues um uh and we certainly had uh
01:05:18 issues um uh and we certainly had uh as a management team we had monthly formal meetings as well and would the door program would be discussed in those meetings what was your assessment of abigail acosta's competence and performance as the project manager of
01:05:30 performance as the project manager of the door program um i mean abby seemed to be very competent in terms of managing a project
01:05:39 project um she didn't necessarily have the technical understanding um
01:05:48 about um fire doors and and or actually i should say
01:05:54 say fire door sets because there is a very distinct difference
01:06:01 but she was willing to learn and how did that sort of lack of technical understanding manifest itself in relation to door sets um i i i recall on
01:06:12 um i i i recall on on one occasion having a discussion about um
01:06:16 about um what our specific requirements were in terms of the fire door set um and making the point that as a minimum
01:06:25 minimum and i stress minimum it should be an fd30s
01:06:30 fd30s and you remember that explicitly do you i do
01:06:33 i do can you help us it's a difficult question relation time can you remember when that conversation took place that would have been in 2011. uh relatively soon after you joined um yes yeah
01:06:45 do you think abigail acosta adequately managed the program in your in your view
01:06:51 i don't recall having any concerns so yes
01:06:55 yes did you take any steps to ensure that abigail received further training in relation to the healthy health and safety aspects of her job or in particular the fire safety regulatory demands
01:07:06 regulatory demands that apply to dawson's i one of the things i did in 2011 was i can't remember who it was that uh the people and performance department
01:07:19 uh the people and performance department engaged they engaged an external consultant at my request to do rro training for all members of the team um and for some that was
01:07:32 um and for some that was a useful refresher for others it was a little more in-depth um abby was one of those the other thing i was quite confident of was that once
01:07:43 i was quite confident of was that once mike halliman was in the role was that he would have a much more in-depth
01:07:52 ability to to deal with any issues that were arising did you ever have cause for concern that she did not have a uh an adequate understanding of the health and safety aspects of the project manager role for this program
01:08:04 manager role for this program um
01:08:08 i i think she had an understanding of what they were um so no
01:08:15 um so no um were you familiar with the kctmo health and safety quick reference construction work information guide
01:08:25 i don't recall it um if we bring it up to seeing it might prompt a memory tiemo i'm glad to interrupt you but i think at some point we might need to take a short break
01:08:36 take a short break this may not be a convenient moment you'll tell me actually let's take in the conveniences as it can be um if we take the break now sir yes yes
01:08:48 um if we take the break now sir yes yes well i think it is time we had a break uh mr anderson we'll stop now we'll come back at 20 to 4 and continue then all right thank you mr chair and um i have to ask you as i ask everybody else
01:08:59 have to ask you as i ask everybody else please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it uh over the break all right certainly thank you very much thank you
01:09:18 twenty to four million
01:25:54 yes would you ask mr anderson to come back in please
01:26:11 all right do take your jacket off yes thank you very much
01:26:15 save me asking
01:26:29 all right ready to carry on yes thank you yes thank you yes ransom thank you um before we broke um slightly before we broke we were discussing interim measures
01:26:40 discussing interim measures um that sometimes you take uh pending full completion of an fra significant action can you give us an idea of or give us some evidence regarding
01:26:52 or give us some evidence regarding instances where interim measures were applied in relation to fire protection systems um certainly uh the the one that brings to mind is a
01:27:03 the the one that brings to mind is a fire alarm panel that because of its age the technology embedded within the panel can't be repaired
01:27:13 requires a replacement and i'm trying to recall the name of the contract i think it was rge um where we we worked with rge
01:27:25 um where we we worked with rge to actually have a number of um temporary panels that they could install and it was it was very much accepted that that was a temporary measure
01:27:36 that that was a temporary measure whilst we were waiting for a replacement panel to be manufactured and then subsequently installed thank you
01:27:43 you before immediately before the break we were discussing the fire door replacement program
01:27:50 can you confirm for me the steps that were taken to ensure that the tmo compiled reviewed and completed a health and safety file for the flat door replacement program um i i can't because i didn't get into
01:28:03 um i i can't because i didn't get into that level of detail it would be that something which abigail acosta should be able to help us with she
01:28:08 she she would have supported that process um and as i was saying before my my view was very much the health and safety team were the program owner um and that was predicated on
01:28:20 owner um and that was predicated on the guidance i'd received from lornette pemberton and uh russell thompson and you don't remember any queries or requests for advice or guidance coming to you from abigail cost regarding the
01:28:31 to you from abigail cost regarding the health and safety file for that flat door program well i i recall her having conversations with me and with mike hallimand i think it was
01:28:43 mike hallimand i think it was later in 2011 maybe early 2012 uh just in general terms about that that being an output from the program but not
01:28:55 program but not not any detail around that can i now turn to a separate topic which is leaseholder front doors which you adverted to earlier on in the evidence could we look first at cst quadruple 0
01:29:09 could we look first at cst quadruple 0 six zero seven
01:29:16 now this is a chain of emails that begins at the bottom of page two with an email from keith mott of the grenfell leaseholders association which was sent on 13th of june 2011 of
01:29:27 which was sent on 13th of june 2011 of 1505.
01:29:29 1505. it was subsequently passed to abigail lacoste to deal with and she copied you into the correspondence and if we go to the first page of this chain we can see
01:29:41 of this chain we can see that uh in the middle of the page that you emailed her on the 13th of june at 16 25 and i'll just let you briefly read that so refresh your memory mr anson
01:30:11 okay now was june 2011 the first time you'd considered or been required to consider whether leasehold doors would need to be replaced
01:30:24 um i don't think it would have been the first time i'd have expected leaseholders doors to be replaced if but whether you'd had to consider the issue um
01:30:35 issue um in in this context um without seeing the rest of the the the string or any prior ones it would appear this is my my first engagement in that discussion
01:30:49 my first engagement in that discussion now in this email you expressed concerns that the fd30s door set may not meet the full requirements of the building regulations and as the door replacement program had already started were you concerned that
01:31:01 already started were you concerned that abigail acosta had begun a program with doors that you were not confident were compliant with the building rigs my my understanding
01:31:12 understanding from discussion with abigail acosta and janice ray was the the the fd 30s
01:31:23 was the the the fd 30s doorset approach came through a collaborative discussion between lfb uh rbkc and kctmo
01:31:35 uh rbkc and kctmo i i've said there i'm slightly apprehensive about that because my my recollection at the time was that fd30s door sets had been set as the
01:31:47 fd30s door sets had been set as the default
01:31:49 default um and my my own personal experience my knowledge was that an fd30s as i stressed earlier on is a minimum
01:32:01 as i stressed earlier on is a minimum there are instances where you might need to install something that is more than an fd30s
01:32:08 an fd30s and it very much depends on the excuse me
01:32:11 me it depends on the particular arrangements in relation to where that door set is within the communal areas and their access onto a communal area etc
01:32:22 access onto a communal area etc and that was my apprehension there and it was a general apprehension as opposed to a a particular concern that in the particular circumstances of a building yes it wouldn't be compliant
01:32:34 at the time of writing this email um was it your understanding that the doors were being replaced because they did the existing doors did not comply with the building regulations um my my understanding not having been
01:32:46 um my my understanding not having been involved in how that program was constructed was that um there had been uh some prior survey work
01:32:55 work um that had either come out of the fras or had come out of um some what i classed as ad hoc stop condition survey work that had identified doors
01:33:09 that had identified doors so these were flat entrance doors or rather i'll be clear door sets that didn't comply with the standard at
01:33:20 that didn't comply with the standard at this time
01:33:21 this time as opposed to the standard when the building was built now bearing having regard to the fire safety
01:33:29 safety considerations would you agree that there's no good reason to differentiate between
01:33:35 between leaseholder doors uh in terms of priority
01:33:38 priority compared to tenant doors um from my personal perspective and my personal belief all tenants should be treated the same and from the fire safety perspective
01:33:50 and from the fire safety perspective there's no reason to uh render leaseholder doors as a lesser priority than those of other residents apologies just to clarify i shouldn't have said tenants i should have said residents
01:34:01 should have said residents so whether they're a tenant or a lease holder they should be treated the same and after providing the advice set out in your email of 13th of june to abigail acosta
01:34:10 acosta what steps did you take to ensure that leaseholders were informed of the need to ensure that their flat entrance doors complied with the order and when i say doors
01:34:19 doors would you forgive me abbreviation for doorstep you make a good point in that regard
01:34:22 regard um apologies for me it's a personal bug bear
01:34:26 bear there's a very technical reason behind that um
01:34:31 that um well as you can see here this is the this is the starting point i recall that the
01:34:36 the and i'm presuming this is it this was a start of internal dialogue um around uh the approach that should be adopted for leasehold flats and so what steps did you take
01:34:47 steps did you take to ensure that leaseholders were reminded of the obligation to comply with
01:34:52 with uh relevant the relevant regulatory obligations um my recollection is that i don't know when in relation to this it was um but there was to be written
01:35:04 um but there was to be written communication as well as personal villa visits wherever feasible with leaseholders
01:35:12 notifying them of this requirement um and also advising them of the options available to them do you know now whether a response was
01:35:23 do you know now whether a response was sent to mr mott or not and what it said i i i don't know whether there was one uh
01:35:30 uh sent or not did you take any steps yourself
01:35:33 yourself uh to ensure that leaseholders were encouraged to come to a private arrangement with uh mance mustador for replacement of their doors beyond promoting the fact that that was an option that was available to them
01:35:46 an option that was available to them and also advising them that it may be a more cost effective solution for them i think the the other aspect to the cost effectiveness was that from conversation
01:35:59 was that from conversation with daniel wood it was about whether or not we would be able to allow a leaseholder to spread that cost over a period of time so that was the we were exploring a lot of different avenues to
01:36:10 of different avenues to to make this more um affordable for leaseholders could we um now turn to an email exchange between david ward who is a senior home
01:36:21 david ward who is a senior home owner home ownership officer and abigail acosta
01:36:25 acosta in september 2011 and that can be found at tm00868146 and this is email correspondence taking place between the 6th and the 7th of
01:36:36 place between the 6th and the 7th of september
01:36:39 september and i'll just let if the document manager would allow you just to see what's said there scroll down
01:36:54 maybe and then scroll up if you could leave it there sorry sorry
01:37:03 stephen motlow is he was at mance mastador thank you
01:37:18 okay the really the question is were you aware that leaseholders would only be informed
01:37:22 informed that they could approach months mostador for a replacement door if they approach mance mustador directly um i wasn't aware of that specific detail um i believe
01:37:34 of that specific detail um i believe there was communication with leaseholders prior to this if we can just deal with this email correspondence i recognize that there's a lot of documentation about this but just looking at this top email
01:37:45 this but just looking at this top email the 7th of september 1339 um do you know why mr ward directed abigail acosta not to send the letter to all leaseholders i
01:37:56 to send the letter to all leaseholders i don't
01:37:56 don't were you aware that that instruction had been given no i wasn't um can you remember whether your approval was sought for limited circulation of a letter or you're informed about it i i don't recall this
01:38:08 i don't recall this restriction at all
01:38:12 now mr ward wrote to leaseholders on the 11th of october 2012 so 13 months after this correspondence and that can be found at tm00847290
01:38:32 there you go just let you briefly have a read of that mr anson say you know what's said would you mind just expanding that thank you
01:39:12 okay um do you know why there's a delay between
01:39:16 between the advice you gave in june 2011 and this letter of october 2012 about notifying leaseholders of the need to check if their front flat doors met legislative
01:39:28 front flat doors met legislative requirements i i don't know the specific reasons for as you'd said a 13-month delay there almost
01:39:38 almost i i did have an awareness that there were conversations ongoing with uh london fire brigade and kensington chelsea rollbar of kensington chelsea council
01:39:50 chelsea council um and some stage i can't recall exactly where it fits into the process uh but the council's opinion was sought as well
01:39:59 as well and as interim uh director later directed did you would you accept you had some responsibility to ensure that your recommendation was carried out and that leaseholders were given proper
01:40:10 and that leaseholders were given proper and timeless notification of the need to check whether their flat entrance doors were regulatory compliant my my recollection is that there was communication with the
01:40:22 is that there was communication with the leaseholders in 2011 regarding flat entrance doors and the the requirements
01:40:33 and the the requirements i i don't know whether it was to this level of detail in terms of the certifier firas etc requirements now on the 14th of november
01:40:45 requirements now on the 14th of november 2012
01:40:45 2012 uh tonde awaderu wrote to david ward on behalf of the gtla after receiving mr ward's letter of 11th of october that we see on the screen now you were copied into that email
01:40:56 email and we can find it at tm00837
01:41:02 229. forward slash two
01:41:10 and we can see the start of the email at the bottom of the page
01:41:16 and the substance is on the final third page
01:41:23 now if you take it from me that the email raised four principal matters um first the exclusion of leaseholders from the flat fire door replacement program
01:41:33 program secondly the failure to notify leaseholders for 19 months that their flat entrance doors may not be fully compliant with fire safety regulations thirdly the tmo's lack of maintenance of
01:41:44 thirdly the tmo's lack of maintenance of fire safety systems at the time of the 2010 fire
01:41:47 2010 fire unfortunately a lack of consultation on improvements to the tower in particular fire exit doors unsafe building smoke vent and smoke alarms internal direct
01:41:57 direct decoration and repairs now having summarized that i'll just let you refresh your memory of that email
01:43:09 would you mind scrolling down to the
01:43:22 thinking
01:43:55 and again please thank you
01:44:21 i think the bottom of this page probably as far as you need to go for the questions mr okay
01:44:30 all right um in relation to the exclusion of leaseholders from the replacement program were you concerned to note that your advice of june 2011 uh to notify
01:44:41 your advice of june 2011 uh to notify legions had not been followed earlier i i can't remember um
01:44:53 i i can't remember um what what my reaction was at the time on reading this or what action i took in relation to that
01:45:04 mindful of your interest in promoting the availability of uh entering into an arrangement with months master door were you concerned or disappointed that that private
01:45:15 disappointed that that private arrangement option had not been pursued with the leaseholders it it's very likely that i was i i can't recall
01:45:26 i i can't recall in relation to the gtla's concern that they've not been notified of potential issues
01:45:30 issues with the doors for some time would you accept that gtla had a legitimate concern about that
01:45:40 i think gtla along with the residents more broadly within grenfell tower had legitimate concerns um and on reading this yes i i'd
01:45:52 um and on reading this yes i i'd consider that a legitimate concern and would it flow from that were you concerned at the time that a number of leaseholders appeared to have doors which did not comply with the relevant regulations um
01:46:07 my reading of this um and certainly the approach at the time was the presumption was that
01:46:12 was that all leaseholder flat doors did not comply
01:46:15 comply that's a presumption
01:46:19 and what was being asked was these are the requirements you need to meet can you satisfy yourself and us that they do
01:46:27 they do and i suppose asking a different question differently were you concerned about the time that had been taken to ensure mindful of the importance of doors doors
01:46:38 mindful of the importance of doors doors set the time that being taken to regularize the situation
01:46:44 yes that that would have been a concern um i'd
01:46:51 i'm not totally convinced that there was no communication in a 19-month period did you articulate your concerns internally at the tmo about the time this issue was
01:47:03 at the tmo about the time this issue was taken
01:47:03 taken given the presumption that the doors did not
01:47:06 not comply with relevant regulations as i said i can't recall exactly um
01:47:14 what my reaction to this was or what what actions i took in relation to this i do recall that there were points in time where
01:47:26 there were points in time where i had a need to engage with others in the organization about reaching a position of resolution in this matter
01:47:38 in this matter can you remember why um the gtla was not consulted about fire safety and smoke extraction systems was it because they weren't originally part of
01:47:49 originally part of part to be sorry they weren't originally intend to be part of the refurbishment program
01:47:54 program um as i said i'm i'm not totally convinced that there was an absence of communication with residents and included in that is leaseholders
01:48:05 leaseholders and the gtla over that 19-month period that's referenced here looking at the substance and tenor of this correspondence did it cause you to take a step back and
01:48:17 did it cause you to take a step back and ask yourself whether the fire safety systems at the tower were being adequately maintained given the concerns that had arisen from the gtla
01:48:28 um it it may have done but i would have also taken comfort from the fact that um i i was aware
01:48:41 um i i was aware um through my internal meetings internal interactions with individuals within the team that whilst there were some contractual challenges with
01:48:53 challenges with gre and their delivery and performance that the
01:49:00 that the servicing and maintenance of the aovs and the smoke extract system were ongoing um the planned preventative maintenance was ongoing whether that was the
01:49:12 ongoing whether that was the the smoke extract systems the fire alarm systems the lifts etc um and that that was being recorded so the visits were being recorded by the engineers
01:49:22 engineers uh within their um their daily diaries um their day books um the notes will be put onto
01:49:31 put onto their individual spreadsheets um some notes were being in input onto academy some were being put onto w2 so i'm i'm struggling to
01:49:44 so i'm i'm struggling to to marry those two up okay um on the 14th of december 2012 paul duncan responded to tunde owadera's complaint about the
01:49:54 about the flat entrance fire doors and the smoke ventilation system and we can see that response at tmoh treble zero two seven three two eight
01:50:13 so you briefly familiarize yourself with the letter
01:50:50 you scroll down to the next page please [Music]
01:50:56 [Music] don't worry about expanding it that's fine well certainly for me that's fine
01:51:16 [Applause]
01:51:50 and the next section thank you
01:52:07 okay um did you discuss this letter uh with mr duncan before it was sent to the gtla
01:52:15 the gtla i i can't remember it specifically but um
01:52:19 um uh paul duncan and i did have discussions around communications generally with all residents in within grenfell tower
01:52:30 all residents in within grenfell tower and the
01:52:31 and the surrounding community um were you aware before this letter was sent that rge had reported in september 2011 that they could not guarantee the smoke
01:52:43 could not guarantee the smoke ventilation system would work in the event of an emergency um i i don't remember the specifics of that one
01:52:51 that one i do remember a
01:52:55 having it generally fed back to me via it was either keith fyfield or ricky sams
01:53:04 sams that there were a number of systems that were reaching end of life effectively and whilst rga rge were able to carry
01:53:15 and whilst rga rge were able to carry out
01:53:16 out ad hoc repairs on those there may come a point
01:53:20 point where they broke down again beyond an ad hoc repair being capable and did you check whether those general
01:53:31 and did you check whether those general uh concerns were relevant to the specific situation of grenfell and the smoke ventilation system there um do you mean in in respect to the
01:53:42 um do you mean in in respect to the incident in 2010 or no respective for the purposes of answering this letter um [Music]
01:53:48 [Music] sorry reviewing this letter um i i would have guided paul to have had conversations with his colleagues to make sure that
01:53:59 make sure that the system was functioning at that point in time
01:54:02 in time and in light of what rge had said in september 2011 about the absence of guarantee that the system would work would you accept that this letter from
01:54:14 would you accept that this letter from mr duncan
01:54:16 mr duncan essentially misinformed the gtla about the state of the smoke extraction system um no i don't believe it's misinforming them um
01:54:25 them um i i i believe your point is more so rge are saying that they can't guarantee it and my recollection of the contractual requirement is that rge were required to
01:54:37 requirement is that rge were required to warrant any work they carried out for a 12-month period and that their that that particular notification
01:54:48 was in relation to their inability to guarantee that it would last for a 12-month period um would you accept that it this letter left it still unclear to
01:54:59 this letter left it still unclear to gtla
01:55:00 gtla as to whether that front door needed to be replaced um yes i accept that and it was also unclear as to how they could verify whether it was in fact
01:55:11 could verify whether it was in fact necessary to replace their front door
01:55:15 apologies i'd agree with that did you try and ensure that it was clearer in those two respects or were you content to leave the draft as
01:55:27 were you content to leave the draft as it stood
01:55:30 i can't remember the timings um but um the the there were i i do recall there were separate conversations going on in relation to leaseholders flat
01:55:43 in relation to leaseholders flat entrance doors in terms of what information should be provided to them what guidance should be provided to them where that guidance source
01:55:52 source came from there was also and again i can't recall when it actually happened council's opinion
01:55:59 opinion about whether or not it was enforceable by kctmo or not etc but do you think by this stage gtla were entitled to a straight answer as to whether that door needed to be
01:56:10 as to whether that door needed to be replaced and how they could verify whether in fact needed to be replaced it was certainly my view well in advance of this
01:56:17 of this that leaseholders doors and tenants doors should be presumed to be deficient and therefore should require replacement
01:56:30 and therefore should require replacement unless
01:56:31 unless the leaseholder could evidence otherwise and was that a view which you uh pursued in informal discussions internal to the tma
01:56:40 tma yes could i now ask you to turn to
01:56:54 tm01201904 and uh mr howard dara sent a further email to mr duncan with you copied in and the email said in the second
01:57:05 the second paragraph and it's in the bottom third of this page in relation to your letter we are confused as to whether the current doors are fit for purpose um he also asks for further disclosure of documents relating to the 2010
01:57:17 of documents relating to the 2010 fire um then if we reduce the page again
01:57:31 you sent an internal email saying you would draft a response for input why did you not want anyone else uh
01:57:38 uh to respond sorry your emails at the top um is there anything subsequent to uh the the bottom of this
01:57:49 subsequent to uh the the bottom of this uh not on this one right
01:58:00 i i'm not totally sure my presumption is that i i felt this was becoming
01:58:08 becoming a very sensitive issue um and that perhaps up until this point we had not been as clear with leaseholders as we could have been okay now um could we now turn
01:58:21 okay now um could we now turn then to tmoh0026874
01:58:33 now this is in mr duncan's name but did you draft that letter albeit is dated the third of the january
01:58:43 i i very much
01:58:54 my hesitation is in relation to this is around the time that i left the tmo i'm just it's responding to the email yeah mr arudera said the one that you said you alone would
01:59:05 the one that you said you alone would respond to i appreciate and so the question is did you draft this letter
01:59:21 would you move on to the next part of this
01:59:25 thank you very much
01:59:39 and the next section please
01:59:55 i i don't recall the specifics of this letter
01:59:58 letter i do know that i drafted a response um as i said this coincided with my departure from
02:00:09 departure from the tmo so it's there may be elements of this that i drafted this could be a completely fresh response following my departure would you accept the letter did not
02:00:21 would you accept the letter did not answer gtla's question about whether front doors were compliant i'd agree with that now a final response on this issue was sent to the gtla after you left the tmo
02:00:34 at that stage when you left in january 2013
02:00:37 2013 um what was the extent of your understanding uh as to whether leaseholder doors were compliant at grenfell tower my my understanding beyond your working
02:00:48 my my understanding beyond your working presumption yeah right okay um that we didn't know we hadn't had access to uh the door sets other than a visual
02:01:00 uh the door sets other than a visual inspection from the exterior so we didn't know hence my my approach which is a presumption they are non-compliant and given that
02:01:11 they are non-compliant and given that you didn't know given your working presumption wasn't there every incentive to get on with the expeditious and full replacement of fire doors with
02:01:22 full replacement of fire doors with regulatory compliant door sets um yes there was and i i believe that kctmo was
02:01:33 that kctmo was operating in in that environment but recognized that it had some potential legal obstacles in its way um hence the need to secure
02:01:46 in its way um hence the need to secure council's opinion about whether or not there was an enforceability around the replacement of doors hence the discussions i again i don't recall when they were but there were discussions jointly with
02:01:57 but there were discussions jointly with um
02:01:59 um rbkc and london fire brigade about which party was the enforcing body i recall there was i certainly attended one meeting where that was discussed and
02:02:11 one meeting where that was discussed and an approach was agreed certainly mindful of that but given the importance of door sets as a fire safety measure
02:02:22 as a fire safety measure would you accept that greater expedition a greater sense of urgency should have informed
02:02:26 informed the replacement program insofar as effect at least hold the doors um
02:02:35 i think the general thrust within kctmo was to replace the doors um there were delays to being able to do that because
02:02:46 that because there were there was the lack of clarity or certainty as to whether or not casey teomo was able to do that um and that then involved the conversations
02:02:57 and that then involved the conversations with london fire brigade and rbkc about whether or not there was a legal basis upon which that could be done
02:03:04 done and if there was which party was the enforcing body would you accept that thrust suggest action
02:03:11 action but no action was being taken so do you think there was an appropriate description of the tmo's attitude i no i don't believe that was a reflection of the the casey tmo's attitude but
02:03:24 the casey tmo's attitude but i i draw a distinction between action being the door sets being replaced
02:03:31 replaced and action being an effort to having identified that this is something that needs to be done how do we legally deliver it uh
02:03:43 how do we legally deliver it uh thank you we can now move on to a separate topic which is about emergency services access to the tower and if i could ask you to go to an email from mr ed defan 16th of october 2012 which is double
02:03:55 16th of october 2012 which is double zero
02:03:56 zero eight five four eight seven four
02:04:12 scroll down
02:04:17 next page and then you see mr de funds if we go down further that's a later email
02:04:33 mr anderson whilst that's going do you recall um
02:04:36 recall um email correspondence from mr de fun regarding email regarding emergency access to the tower i do yeah and may assist if we go to a response from
02:04:47 may assist if we go to a response from mr black
02:04:48 mr black which can be found at tm01201 seven two five
02:04:55 could i just check that you didn't want me to read this i don't okay just just familiarize yourself with the the general point and here we go so we've got um at the top there a response
02:05:07 um at the top there a response an email rather from mr black to janice ray
02:05:12 and says in the final paragraph in terms of the rest of this state as far as i can remember mark confirmed this is the responsibility of rbkc so i'm not sure if we can do as she is asking
02:05:22 asking can you review with mark and then reply to her
02:05:26 to her then if i can ask you to go to
02:05:32 tm01201729
02:05:38 could i just check with you that this is in response to councillor blakeman uh yes yeah thank you and then we see sorry um you responded
02:05:51 and then we see sorry um you responded to mr black and said you'd respond to all issues relating to calc and gtrp that's in the bottom third of that page
02:05:58 that page then if i can ask you finally to go to tm008
02:06:03 tm008 602
02:06:14 and here we go it's uh you're emailing mr dufan on the 26th of october at 8 49
02:06:22 at 8 49 and you say in the third substantive paragraph of that email starts with the words with regard with regard to fire safety at grenfell tower and for that matter the remainder of the estate
02:06:32 estate and as advised at the estate management board meeting the fire safety and management arrangements formed part of the respective projects and at present there was no impact upon the access routes that lfepa would utilize in the event of an
02:06:43 would utilize in the event of an incident now taking that paragraph itself on what basis did you satisfy yourself that there would be no impact at all on the access routes to the tower
02:06:56 would you mind you're scrolling up on this so i can see the date yes it's the 26th of october uh right okay
02:07:03 okay um so at this point with the design evolution um in in terms of where we had reached
02:07:13 reached the the the proposals for grenfell tower would not have any adverse impact upon the
02:07:24 upon the highway or the service routes into the estate and around uh or certainly on two faces of the grenfell tower was that a view you reached yourself or was it a view that
02:07:36 reached yourself or was it a view that was reached in consultation with either ryden or the lfb or janice ray
02:07:43 ray ryden ryden were not involved at this point in time they were sorry yes this was lead bitter so this was in consultation with ledbitter and the design team or
02:07:56 ledbitter and the design team or pre-construction professional team i should use the correct phrase so we we had all discussed issues discussed concerns
02:08:07 concerns and we had all concluded that at that point in time the design as proposed would not impact um if i can stop you there did you consult with the lfb
02:08:18 consult with the lfb uh there were discussions with lfb i can't say whether that was in advance of this or post this did you have any discussions with any other emergency services who might require
02:08:30 emergency services who might require emergency access to the tower uh we spoke with um
02:08:38 it was the metropolitan police neighborhood policing team i can't remember their exact and did you check what
02:08:50 check what if any regulatory requirements had to be complied with in relation to emergency access
02:08:58 access before responding to mr de fun uh that was
02:09:02 was that was part of the as the design evolved
02:09:05 evolved the pre-construction professional team were in dialogue with london fire brigade about the
02:09:16 the emergency vehicle service route and you relied upon their response for the purposes of responding to mr yes did you confirm with rbkc um did you sorry did you confirm whether
02:09:28 did you sorry did you confirm whether rbkc would be responsible for the roads around the tower
02:09:35 the the issue that was highlighted by mr dufan
02:09:38 dufan and others both in the community and residents of grenfell tower
02:09:44 encompassed the public highway uh as well as the service road um and so it was in relation to the public highway
02:09:54 highway that it was an rbkc responsibility at that
02:09:57 that at this date thank you um and can you remember whether there's anyone specific at rbkc who's involved in these discussions i i only recall that the
02:10:08 i i only recall that the pre-construction professional team spoke with
02:10:11 with the highways department um planning um trying to think who else they spoke with um
02:10:22 um environmental was was another one i believe they had conversations with with building control but that wouldn't have been in relation to this necessarily thank you um can i now turn to complaint
02:10:33 thank you um can i now turn to complaint system questions and nearing the end of my prepared questions mr anson um by december 2012 residents had raised with you
02:10:41 with you fire safety concerns in respect of maintenance the smoke ventilation system of the tower information provided leaseholders about checking if the front doors were compliant
02:10:51 compliant with relevant regulations and emergency services access to the tower did any of those single complaints or taken in combination and caused you
02:11:02 or taken in combination and caused you to reflect about the adequacy and the integrity of the fire safety arrangements for the tower throughout the evolution of the design
02:11:15 the evolution of the design residents be they tenants or leaseholders observations comments complaints what whatever you wanted to categorize them as
02:11:26 them as were taken into account um and wherever possible responses were provided to them but you were satisfied with the advocacy of the fire safety arrangements
02:11:37 of the fire safety arrangements i mean there were certainly um occasions where
02:11:41 where i was prompted to just check um you know smoke ventilation is apologies smoke ventilation was
02:11:52 apologies smoke ventilation was was one that does stick in my mind because there had been reference a number of times to a fire in 2010 now i wasn't aware of fire in 2010 i wasn't there at that point in time
02:12:03 wasn't there at that point in time but i did want to understand what had happened in 2010 because there'd been smoke logging on a number of the floors and that was because the automatic opening vents had failed to operate
02:12:15 opening vents had failed to operate correctly
02:12:16 correctly they partially automated but not fully and i wanted to understand that that had been addressed i was satisfied it had been addressed
02:12:27 been addressed yes there were issues um in terms of rge's performance if i can just stop you there with rge obviously they'd advised in september 2011 that
02:12:39 they'd advised in september 2011 that they couldn't guarantee the operation of the aov you made the point that obviously they'd provide assurances in relation to 12 month periods when the letter of the
02:12:52 12 month periods when the letter of the 14th of december 2012 was sent by mr duncan which you reviewed before it was sent
02:12:58 sent did you expressly ask for assurance from rge
02:13:02 rge that the smoke ventilation system uh would be effective in the event of a fire
02:13:07 fire right i i can't recall if i asked specifically in relation to that response
02:13:12 response i know there were a number of occasions both in 2011 and in 2012 where through either keith fei field or
02:13:23 where through either keith fei field or ricky sam's and their team members that i'd ask the questions about where are we in terms of the fire alarm system uh the dry riser
02:13:35 the fire alarm system uh the dry riser servicing
02:13:37 servicing the automatic opening vents and did you ask
02:13:40 ask a specific question in relation to the operation the aov of mr firefield mr sam's or mr duncan before
02:13:48 before you signed off on the the letter that mr docton sent out in december 2012. i don't know if i used the term aov um but i did
02:13:57 but i did i did ask about smoke extract um the final section that i'd like to ask you about concerns um disabled residents and could i ask you to consider minutes of a meeting
02:14:08 you to consider minutes of a meeting held on the 28th of march 2012 and that can be found at max treble zero quadruple zero eight
02:14:30 thank you and if we turn to page two under the heading of additional consultants it's under item
02:14:38 four
02:14:43 and you see the second point is possible disability consultant required essie will approach consultant engaged on calc um can you remember now what had prompted the discussion about the need for a disability
02:14:54 about the need for a disability consultant yes i can so the um we were providing additional residential units so they were new that new
02:15:08 so they were new that new provision um uh whilst the the general thrust from both kc tmo and rbkc was that they should be wheelchair accessible um we wanted to ensure or the
02:15:21 accessible um we wanted to ensure or the pre-construction professional team wanted to ensure that we were meeting disability standards
02:15:27 standards and did was there any discussion in the context of the refurbishment project of the needs of residents with restricted mobility to evacuate should the need arise um there there were some general
02:15:40 um there there were some general discussions around that um and i recall the pre-construction professional team had discussions with london fire brigade and with rbkc building control
02:15:54 and with rbkc building control about what the requirements were or would be
02:15:58 would be for the remainder of grenfell tower bearing in mind that this was a refurbishment project i might not therefore be captured uh by
02:16:10 i might not therefore be captured uh by building rigs that would apply at this date as opposed to existing accommodation and can you remember whether during the course of those general discussions there was any mention of any personal emergency evacuation plans
02:16:22 evacuation plans individuals who may have impaired mobility for example i i don't know when those particular topics came up that that might be a more appropriate
02:16:34 up that that might be a more appropriate question directed to the local estate management team thank you mr anderson uh that marks the end of my prepared questions
02:16:46 end of my prepared questions as you know from last time there's now a period which allows me to check were there any
02:16:49 there any further questions that i need to ask um sir
02:16:53 sir might i ask for um the usual break usual break yes um how long do you think i should allow this time um i'd be minded to allow 20 minutes
02:17:04 minded to allow 20 minutes um 20 20 minutes at this stage so that which should be uh more than enough as that well i think it would be more than 15 do you think 15 to start with yeah i think 20 minutes is more than
02:17:16 yeah i think 20 minutes is more than enough to be honest i think we'll say quarter to five but if more time is required we shall entertain the application sympathetically thanks sir all right so um what all that means mr anderson is we
02:17:29 um what all that means mr anderson is we have a break uh we'll resume a quarter to five or as soon as we can uh thereafter and i have to ask you again not to talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room thank you mr chairman thank you very
02:17:40 thank you mr chairman thank you very much you'd like to give the usher please
02:17:58 thank you
02:37:07 would you ask mr anderson to come back in please
02:37:28 all right this trends and well we'll see if there are more questions for you thank you mr chairman mr anderson thank you um some few some further questions for you
02:37:36 for you um during your time at the uh tmo and in relation to the refurbishment uh project was any consideration given to
02:37:47 to issues regarding accessibility and the ability to exit existing flats in the building as i mentioned before we broke the pre-construction professional team
02:37:59 pre-construction professional team engaged with london fire brigade building control because they wanted to understand what the implications were on refurbishing an existing tower block
02:38:12 on refurbishing an existing tower block i.e grenfell tower um and whether or not there were any requirements and can you remember can you give us a bit more detail with whom you had these discussions i i didn't have those conversations that was the pre-construction professional
02:38:24 was the pre-construction professional team
02:38:25 team um mr anderson in those circumstances those are all the questions i now have for you
02:38:30 for you um it just leads me to say um finally if there's anything else you'd like to say which you think would assist the panel in its deliberations
02:38:41 i'm more than willing to provide further assistance if you require it i can't think of anything at this stage again i offer my sincere condolences
02:38:52 again i offer my sincere condolences to all of those affected by the fire that happened on the 14th of june 2017. yeah
02:38:59 yeah thank you mr anderson thank you for coming to give evidence thank you well this transition it just remains then for me to thank you very much on behalf of all the members of the panel for coming along a second time
02:39:10 along a second time to give evidence it's been very useful to hear from you and we're grateful to you for coming but that is all for the afternoon thank you very much
02:39:19 very much thank you mr chairman panel members thank you
02:39:34 so mr kinnear that brings us to a close for the day it does sir and we don't sit tomorrow so we shall resume on monday of next week so 10 o'clock when there are more witnesses for us to
02:39:45 when there are more witnesses for us to hit there are two more witnesses who will be taken by mr gatt thank you very much 10 o'clock on monday thank you
02:40:07 you