Evidence from TMO estate services officer regarding fire safety inspections, resident engagement, fire risk assessment implementation, and compliance monitoring at Grenfell Tower before the refurbishment.
00:00:26 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from some additional members uh employees of the tmo so mr gad who's our first witness uh
00:00:38 so mr gad who's our first witness uh good morning mr chairman good morning members of the panel can i call siobhan rumble good thank you
00:00:54 [Music]
00:00:57 good morning ramble um i understand you're going to take the earth is that right yes
00:01:01 right yes could you take the testament in your right hand please then and read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much
00:01:12 truth thank you very much and sit down and make yourself comfortable
00:01:19 right yes mr god good morning ms rumble can i start by thanking you very much for attending at this public inquiry to give your evidence we're very grateful to you
00:01:30 grateful to you if you have any difficulty understanding any of the questions i'm going to ask you
00:01:34 you please say and i'll ask them again or put them
00:01:37 put them in a in a different way if you feel you need a break at any time please let us know we'll aim to break once in the morning at least but if you need a break at any other point just signal
00:01:49 point just signal and will aim to break down the other thing i'd ask you to do is to please try to keep your voice up so that the transcriber who's sitting to your right can hear you very clearly and
00:02:01 your right can hear you very clearly and get down your evidence it also helps not to nod or shake in response to any questions but to to say audibly yes or no you've made three statements to the inquiry
00:02:13 three statements to the inquiry can i please take you to them there are a folder on your desk and they will appear
00:02:16 appear on the screen the first statement
00:02:24 is dated the 8th of february 2019
00:02:32 the signature on page 15 is that your signature
00:02:36 signature yes did you sign that statement on the 8th of february 2019 yes i'm going to call that your first statement can we go to
00:02:48 statement can we go to the next step in tmo one zero zero five zero zero
00:02:52 zero zero zero one and that statement did thirty first of august down to nineteen can we go to page four please again do you recognize that signature
00:03:03 again do you recognize that signature yes is it yours yes did you sign that on the 31st of august 2019
00:03:08 2019 i'm going to call this your second witness statement and can we then go to tm00870943 should be a statement dated the 12th of
00:03:20 should be a statement dated the 12th of may 2020
00:03:23 may 2020 signature on page five
00:03:26 again is that your signature yes and you signed up on the 12th of may 2020 yes have you read those statements recently yes
00:03:35 yes and can you confirm that the contents are true
00:03:39 are true they are but there's an error i noticed i started in november 11 not 12 as my statement says that's very helpful aside from that are the contents true yes have you
00:03:51 are the contents true yes have you discussed your statements or evidence with anyone else in advance of coming here today about a year ago i did because i wanted to clarify the spreadsheet because that kept coming back in the witness statement and i
00:04:03 back in the witness statement and i couldn't remember and i needed to remember
00:04:05 remember so i did ask my colleague at the tmo which just clarified clarified for me we may come onto that spreadsheet you
00:04:16 we may come onto that spreadsheet you can inform us of your knowledge at that point
00:04:19 point uh as you say in your witnessing you refer to starting in november 2012 but we know i know then it's november 2011. thank you i'm gonna ask you some questions about your background
00:04:31 questions about your background and training sell out of paragraph six of your first fitness statement
00:04:36 you can pull that up you see paragraph six that you began your career at the london borough of southwark and then you moved to sanctuary housing association and over the page
00:04:47 association and over the page hyde housing and crawley barrack council now in those rules did you ever come across a
00:04:54 across a personal emergency evacuation plans or or peeps
00:04:58 or peeps no in any
00:05:01 no in any any rule at all so you're at southwark did you hear it never never did you receive any training in any of those roles in relation to it to fire safety
00:05:12 to fire safety i'm sure i would have done but i can't remember any specific training can you remember any general topics that you would have covered in that training in regards to fire safety
00:05:25 not really would you have carried out any training respect to residents fire safety in general needs housing not really no join the tmo
00:05:37 not really no join the tmo in 2011 and your title is area housing manager for lancaster west is that correct yes can you recall who interviewed you for that role
00:05:48 that role alistair manson and it was the bald so bob i can't remember your surname now but bob was the chair of the board yes no the enb the emb board yeah i
00:06:01 yes no the enb the emb board yeah i think it was just alistar and bob right did you know either those two before you no i didn't know the interview did you have any formal qualifications uh that were relevant to that role at
00:06:13 uh that were relevant to that role at tmo
00:06:14 tmo um it was i mean my experience i'd done the hmc in housing went to college for four years but if i'm honest i don't remember too much about
00:06:23 about those four years but a lot of it is practical
00:06:27 practical on the job learning you learn from experience just for clarity when was it that you were at college prior to how long was it for you that you were at college so i
00:06:38 for you that you were at college so i started
00:06:40 started my career in 91 i think maybe 97
00:06:46 so 15 years yeah something like that
00:06:52 did you have any experience when you joined tmo recent experience of resident engagements and communications um well yeah because
00:07:03 um well yeah because you're always getting involved whatever's going on on the estate wherever you work there's always communications and resident engagement and previously where i worked with had a youth worker so you'd always be engaging
00:07:15 youth worker so you'd always be engaging with the rev residents on some level
00:07:19 as part of the application process either as part of your written application for the rule or during the interview were you asked about fire safety training that you'd undertaken no never be part
00:07:31 that you'd undertaken no never be part of
00:07:31 of i've never been asked that in any interview that i've had no whether a tmo or practice not were you asked at any stage during the application process about interaction or experience with dealing
00:07:42 interaction or experience with dealing with vulnerable residents or what might be termed vulnerable residents
00:07:48 i could tell you what the questions were if i'm honest
00:07:53 can we focus then on on your role as area horizon manager and some of the detail of that rule now again turn into your first wit statement you set paragraph eight
00:08:04 statement you set paragraph eight you're based at lancaster west housing state you see that paragraph it yep and the paragraph nine your responsibilities included the day-to-day running of the estate and ensuring that antisocial behavior
00:08:15 and ensuring that antisocial behavior was addressed yep can you help us with in terms of seniority were you the most senior person
00:08:23 person working for the tmo based at the lancaster west estate yes would you have been the main point of contact uh between the goings-on the lancaster west state
00:08:34 the goings-on the lancaster west state and the tmo yes was it your role to ensure that any health and safety checks that were carried out on the estate were carried out properly correctly in regards to these
00:08:46 properly correctly in regards to these state inspections yes because those were responsible to me come on to those in a moment if any health and safety issues arose on the estate or you're made aware of them
00:08:58 estate or you're made aware of them would it have been you that was responsible for liaising with the tml health and safety team um no who would have been responsible um the caretakers caretakers the estate
00:09:09 caretakers caretakers the estate services officers um would do their inspections and they would
00:09:14 would ring through to the repairs and raise those repairs and it was only if things weren't being done they would come to me and then i would escalate it
00:09:24 as well as being the area housing manager for lancaster west you were also as i understand your statement in charge of the income team across the tmo correct
00:09:35 the income team across the tmo correct that's across all highs in stock yes and the entire borough yes what did that role involve making sure people paid their rent getting people
00:09:46 people paid their rent getting people the help and support they needed to pay their rent and if they didn't then escalating it to the courts to get orders to make sure they paid their rent
00:09:58 they paid their rent can you help us with the amount of time that you spent in working in that role as income team leader
00:10:04 leader uh compared to your role as area manager for lancaster west could you help us with the division of of labor
00:10:12 of labor i mean most of my time i mean i was always at lancaster west so that is where i worked and all my work was around lancaster west and dealing with anti-social behavior of youths i'd be
00:10:23 anti-social behavior of youths i'd be out and about i wasn't a manager that just sat in the office so i would be out and about and get my hands dirty that's just how we were down there we all worked together
00:10:34 did you feel that your rulers income team leader impinged in any way and your ability to carry out your role on lancaster not at all no
00:10:44 can we look at uh training that you did with the tmo and you you talk about this in your second witness tip and if we could please pull that up paragraph three tmo
00:10:55 please pull that up paragraph three tmo one zero zero five zero zero zero one paragraph three you're saying that i don't know if you just want to refresh your memory that you don't recall receiving any health and safety training while at
00:11:12 tmu
00:11:17 just to just to to restate that then is your recollection that you don't recall any training in the four years that you're at i don't to be honest i can just about remember like last week but even where i currently work if i
00:11:29 but even where i currently work if i know i've done a load of training but if someone asked me what training have you done
00:11:32 done i'd have to really sit and think what training have i done even i know i've done a lot so i'm not saying i didn't have any but i really can't remember what training i had
00:11:42 had does that does that apply to fire safety training specifically as well you may have had it but you can't recall
00:11:52 i really don't know i can't remember can i ask you
00:11:57 i ask you whether you recall having any training on the tmo's fire safety strategy that definitely no the health and tempo's health and safety policy
00:12:08 i can't remember now i can't remember can you call our request in training on either those things or in fire safety or health and safety no i remember
00:12:18 remember um i can't remember for what reason but i know i asked for some refresher training for the estate services officers
00:12:25 officers paul and rob and i think that might have been when
00:12:30 been when we had the issue with the fire extinguisher and i think there was some refresher training i do kind of semi-recall that but not for myself no you didn't go on that training management
00:12:41 management can we look at your first witness statement again paragraph 29 the the reference please operators yes thank you
00:12:50 thank you you say that before the refurbishment you're aware that grandfather had fire alarms fire extinguishers a ventilation system communal fire doors
00:13:01 a ventilation system communal fire doors lifts and emergency lighting you're also aware there's a fire brigade drop crate that's right fire brigade drop key which could be used by the esa's or the fire brigade to open the lift doors
00:13:12 open the lift doors yes when you were recruited by the tmo were you given any specific briefing on these various fire safety measures no do you know anything about them other
00:13:23 no do you know anything about them other than
00:13:23 than the fact of their existence just that they exist and the guys had worked there a long time so they knew the estate very well the fire brigade dropped key where you
00:13:35 the fire brigade dropped key where you who told you about that who informed you about it
00:13:38 about it i think just paul and rob when they'd done their checks were you told what it was for how it was to be used who it was for not in any detail no but i think it was
00:13:49 not in any detail no but i think it was to check that it was working right and is that is that something you you gleaned or did someone come specifically tell you that this is what it's foreign i don't remember anyone coming to specifically tell me that
00:14:01 specifically tell me that you mentioned previously about the checklists and the estate services uh estate services assistance is that the correct name yes esis uh now i'm going to ask you some questions about
00:14:12 some questions about esa's part of the rule involves supervising them is that correct yes so paul stebman and robert regan yes come on i asked you first about your
00:14:23 come on i asked you first about your supervising role in relation to the inspections uh do you recall that esa's been trained to conduct the inspections that they carried out on this stage
00:14:34 carried out on this stage they may have done they was already in post when i came to the role so you're not aware if they are trained prior thought or not no fair and you wouldn't then have been
00:14:45 fair and you wouldn't then have been involved in any training for them not that i'm aware do you recall whether they were given any written guidance about those checks and inspections
00:14:57 about those checks and inspections they had a check sheet to follow so anyone could really come in and follow that check sheet it wasn't kind of rocket science do you remember you don't remember any guidance documents about
00:15:08 guidance documents about how what you should look for in those checks no
00:15:12 checks no uh specifically dealing with fire extinguishers do you recall whether there was any guidance for checking those no i don't or any training or guidance
00:15:23 or any training or guidance determination to fire alarm tests tests and firearms systems no it was just making sure they worked and i think the fire extinguishers were part of the rge contract if i remember rightly and what what was
00:15:36 if i remember rightly and what what was the
00:15:39 they were the electrical consequence they used to be based in the office where we
00:15:42 where we then got put and that's on lancaster west yes
00:15:48 can we go back to your first witness state in paragraph 38 please operator you provide there some examples of what was included on the inspection seats used by esa's
00:16:01 the inspection seats used by esa's if you look at example a you refer to the common fire doors and shoot room
00:16:10 can we then go to your second statement at paragraph nine
00:16:20 thank you i wonder if we could zoom in yes thank you just have a quick look at
00:16:34 that
00:16:45 yes yes so the second sentence the estate service assistance would inspect the communal doors um do you do you know or do you recall whether the esa's were trained and hard
00:16:57 whether the esa's were trained and hard to check whether the fire doors were functioning correctly in any way not specifically but i'm sure they had had training
00:17:09 had training the reason i say that is because i knew that um
00:17:13 that um they would tell me because sometimes the fire door closer was either not going back quick enough it was too stiff or too loose how would you know that if if you hadn't had any training
00:17:24 had any training the example you give in your witness statement is too slow and you've also then given us a couple of other issues that that arose what were those issues being too slow to stiff they rise frequently
00:17:35 stiff they rise frequently on lancaster west as far as you can i think sometimes they did yes can you give us an idea of how often not really it's hard to say
00:17:46 not really it's hard to say but i know that when they've done the block inspections that's one thing i do remember and not a lot do remember coming out of the block inspections but i do know about those communal doors um and they had to raise several repairs
00:18:03 you say if they observed an issue with a flat instance door they would report it who would they report it to to the repairs desk at the hub
00:18:11 hub to the repairs to ask the hub who staffed that repairs desk i can't remember who staffed it it had a team
00:18:19 team team of people down at the hub who managed were they tmo employees yes they were or an external organisation yeah tmo
00:18:26 tmo yes uh having raised that as an issue do you know if they ever followed it up well it's part of their job to follow it up so when they would do their next inspections they would be checking that the stuff
00:18:38 they would be checking that the stuff they raised previously had been actioned and that's where sometimes i might get involved if weeks had gone past and something wasn't resolved you would get involved high to then contact whoever at the hub to
00:18:50 to then contact whoever at the hub to say that there's a repair has been ordered it's been several weeks why hasn't it been done because these state inspectors knew that they had to follow up you don't just raise the repair and then walk away from it you then have to follow up to make
00:19:02 it you then have to follow up to make sure it's done may i summarize my understanding yeah the check is made let's say the closer is too slow repair is requested through the repairs desk um the
00:19:15 through the repairs desk um the estate inspector then checks again a couple of weeks later if it hasn't been done
00:19:19 done they then raise it with you you then contact a repair center yeah not exactly it might be they might have gone back to repairs this again um or they then might come to me or they
00:19:30 um or they then might come to me or they might come to me the second time third time you know because they're going back to check and if something's not done then and if i if it if you hadn't had any
00:19:41 and if i if it if you hadn't had any success with getting it repaired either quickly or at all what would you do who would you raise that with i mean i know i could have gone to janice ray being the health and
00:19:52 gone to janice ray being the health and safety officer but i don't think we ever did
00:19:55 did because i think once you chase something up it gets however it's stuck in the system or whatever it would end up getting done can i just ask do you know whether there's any time within which um esa's had to go back and check whether a
00:20:08 esa's had to go back and check whether a repair had actually been done no they were doing weekly inspections anyway because where we were situated we was literally in the heart of the estate so they was always out and about and in and out of the blocks all the
00:20:19 and in and out of the blocks all the time so they would check up as and when it was yeah but they would do their regular inspection weekly thank you
00:20:30 thank you mr chairman just on a slightly different topic in terms of flat doors so the flat door entrance
00:20:38 entrance and closures on it was there ever any discussion as far as you can recall for a routine inspection of flat doors flat ancient stores no they never formed part of the esa's
00:20:50 no they never formed part of the esa's um inspections from entrance doors do you
00:20:53 you recall it ever been discussed not with esa's but say higher up the team or with janice ray no can we go back to your second with the
00:21:05 can we go back to your second with the statement of paragraph 10
00:21:11 thank you and again if we can zoom in on page of 10 thank you just have a quick read of paragraph 10 please
00:21:23 what'd you say there is you can't you can't recall no would it be the case that if they had been
00:21:31 been carrying those checks right would you have known about them would you have known that their kindness check site yes i remember the ones for the finger blocks more specifically because they often got
00:21:42 because they often got um stuck open so we had some issues trying to get them once closed but i can't remember grenfell can i just ask you to pause there sorry what what was what was stuck open on the finger
00:21:53 open on the finger the vents if a smoke alarm goes off it's it's almost like a conservatory roof and it just opens that wasn't the finger blocks i remember the finger blocks one but i can't recall
00:22:04 the finger blocks one but i can't recall the grenfell one right can we look at a document the year end which is met 000 65673
00:22:16 the year end which is met 000 65673 if you could pull it up on the screen please operator could you just have a look at that
00:22:24 document
00:22:43 yep thank you no you may have picked up from the
00:22:47 from the the metropolitan police service tagging that but it's a document provided by paul stedman to the police labeled picture diagrams with explanations of the checks i did it's dated 16th november 2016.
00:23:00 it's dated 16th november 2016. so that obviously post dates your employment tmo do you remember saying either that document or something similar to it in your time at tmo no not at all anything even remotely
00:23:12 no not at all anything even remotely similar to it or no nothing at all no sorry i'm going to come on to the checklist that you touched upon earlier so again you mentioned the
00:23:23 earlier so again you mentioned the correction or that you discussed these with um someone else but when we're going through these questions if you just tell again the inquiry anything
00:23:30 anything that they think you think they ought to know
00:23:35 would you accompany esa's and any inspections uh to ensure that they're being conducted appropriately no never no would you have known if they had been conducted properly or not yes because i had to fill out a
00:23:47 not yes because i had to fill out a sheet
00:23:47 sheet and i can they would come back and it'd be in a folder before they got the pdas so i could inspect them anytime i wanted but like i say we was in the middle of the estate and i could see paul leave to go to
00:23:59 and i could see paul leave to go to grenfell i could see robert leave to go and do the other blocks so i didn't have any concerns that they weren't doing the block inspections you trusted that they were doing yes it did yeah
00:24:10 do you recall if paul stedman or or rob regan ever raised a concern with you that they'd that they were overloaded with work there too much to do they didn't have time to
00:24:20 time to conduct um their checks no i think that came a bit later on before not long before i left i think where some caretakers had left in the
00:24:31 where some caretakers had left in the north and south of the borough they was asked to take on extra work i think but
00:24:36 think but not generally just when we was at lancaster west when they had their own blocks
00:24:41 blocks right can you help us with the time the time that that occurred that issue with covering other blocks
00:24:49 i mean it must have been maybe the last year i was there so 15. so 2015 into 12 14 15 maybe yeah and the issue was they were effectively asked to cover other blocks
00:25:00 asked to cover other blocks yeah i'm sure i mean again i couldn't say a hundred percent but i know that um when people leaving they were asked to go and cover other blocks right in terms of their inspections in
00:25:12 right in terms of their inspections in each state was there any time limit set for how long they had to conduct them no
00:25:19 were they given do you recall their given say
00:25:23 given say 10 minutes 20 minutes 30 minutes none at all not from when they reported into me no as i say was on this state and
00:25:31 state and i wouldn't give them a time limit you do it until you've finished doing your block inspection properly rather than say
00:25:36 say you need to be done in 15 minutes and they're racing around and don't do what they're supposed to do and then
00:25:42 then it took the time it took is that effectively your answer and you had no concerns that they were either rushing it
00:25:48 it or nobody didn't no
00:25:52 did you ever have any concerns about whether the inspections were carried out properly
00:25:56 properly or not i honestly didn't know can we go to paragraph 38 of your first witness statements please
00:26:06 thank you you say that the results of weekly health and safety checks were recorded
00:26:11 recorded manually on inspection seats until the handheld devices were issued yes you see that uh can you recall when the pda the han firefighter from the pcs when they were
00:26:22 firefighter from the pcs when they were issued to the esa's i can't but i'm making the assumption it must have been maybe six months before i left because i didn't really have a lot to do with
00:26:33 didn't really have a lot to do with those
00:26:34 those um and checking any of those prior to the pdas being issued the hard copy checklist where would they have been
00:26:42 been they were kept in the their office because they used to have an office that was next to baseline studios and then
00:26:49 then when we went into the tower they then came in and we was all together but they had loads of files do you know were they were they stored for a particularly long period or how long they were stored for
00:27:00 they were stored for yeah i think so i know rob definitely kept
00:27:04 kept everything you said paragraph 40 if we can scroll down in your witness statement please thank you the esa's would carry out monthly health and safety checks
00:27:16 out monthly health and safety checks now in terms of these monthly checks were they recorded in the same way the information from them to my knowledge they were so was that in hard copy prior to the pdas and then on the pdas
00:27:27 the pdas i'm sure yeah
00:27:31 can we go to your second with the statement of paragraph five
00:27:38 thank you just have a quick look at paragraph five please
00:27:47 you refer to the minor issues arising from the inspections you recall saying that yeah can you recall any particular minor issues being raised by the esa in relation to fire safety specifically
00:28:00 relation to fire safety specifically it would probably i mean this is not 100 but in in the work we do it was probably someone's bike being left on the landing or someone putting plant pots outside on
00:28:11 or someone putting plant pots outside on the landing which obviously you're not allowed so what would just help us with the process of resolving that was an issue why would that be resolved then they would report that back and
00:28:22 then they would report that back and janice jones was the area housing manager so she would then write to him to say you need to remove your bike or your plant pots and then we'd go and check that they've removed them
00:28:37 you say occasionally bigger issues emerged which required you to liaise with janice ray what if you could help us please with the dividing line between a minor issue and
00:28:47 and a major issue that would require escalation to generate the only one i can really think of is when there was large amounts of rubbish dumped
00:28:57 dumped um and i'm not sure whether that was um there was one particular one where it's at the side of i think it was camelford and we i'm sure we it was janice that our liaise with and we had to look at a
00:29:08 our liaise with and we had to look at a plan of how we could design at that area because there was just it was almost like a fly tip just dumped and you know people add to it people set fire to it
00:29:19 it people set fire to it but i couldn't say 100 whether it was janice i had that conversation with it may have been but we ended up putting big um
00:29:26 big um like flower beds in that area so people couldn't dump the rubbish there anymore the determination of whether to refer something to the health and safety team was that your that was done to you was
00:29:37 was that your that was done to you was it um yeah because my guys would come to me
00:29:40 me and if it's something we couldn't resolve i mean nine times out of ten we could because a lot of it's common sense stuff
00:29:45 stuff um then obviously i always knew janice was there and she was really helpful um approachable i could always go to janice so were you ever given any any any guidance or direction from
00:29:57 any guidance or direction from from dance or anyone than timo about issues that could be dealt with by you and your team and issues that should be escalated no not specifically
00:30:09 no not specifically can i ask you about the process for reporting issues to repairs direct the repairs direct came in in 2013. is that right you would have been in cmo i don't know but i guess so yeah i
00:30:21 cmo i don't know but i guess so yeah i do know repair's direct you are familiar with the process of reporting to repairs direct yes any event what how would that be initiated then a repair issue how would that be reported
00:30:33 repair issue how would that be reported to repairs direct generally people would call repairs direct themselves we didn't really get involved in the repairs but it's only if things weren't being done or we might have a resident come
00:30:45 done or we might have a resident come into the office and complain that their heating's been out for four days no one's been in contact
00:30:50 contact so we would then ring up and try and find out just to be helpful to the resident ring the repairs desk and say what's happening we've got a resident in front of us you know and try and get it resolved
00:31:01 you know and try and get it resolved that way how would they how would repairs direct respond to you or your team
00:31:06 team well obviously by just telling us yes we this is noted this is the job number it's on a five-day turnaround whatever it was but at least we then knew because we could then say to the tenant
00:31:17 because we could then say to the tenant well you reported it two days ago unfortunately they're not going to come out you've got an appointment for friday or you know just to give them that information so would you would you monitor them the
00:31:28 would you would you monitor them the requests at all no would you only be aware if it hadn't happened
00:31:34 happened when the state service uh assistance checked and no that hadn't happened or a resident said it hasn't happened yet is that
00:31:41 that yeah right because repairs wasn't um like
00:31:47 like under my management so so you'd become involved at that point then yeah i would just literally get involved to be the liais the liaison and just try and get things resolved would anyone would anyone from your team
00:32:00 would anyone would anyone from your team or
00:32:00 or within tmo as far as you're aware um check
00:32:04 check if repairs directly carried out a repair for example to a door closer self closing the door would anyone check the work that they'd done [Music]
00:32:13 [Music] um they would check on obviously on the next inspection that it had been done so if repairs direct
00:32:20 direct had for example remove the door closer as opposed to fix it would that be picked up by anyone as far as you're aware yeah who would so if it was grandfather it had been paul if it was on any of the other doors it would have been rob
00:32:32 it would have been rob so we've thought again if i may if it occurred as an example to a flat entrance door would that only be picked up if if paul stedman checked that flat entrance store in the next occasion
00:32:43 entrance store in the next occasion he wouldn't be to my knowledge he wouldn't be checking front entrance doors and i wouldn't be aware
00:32:51 aware whether the door closed was working not working whether they had one or whether they didn't have one i had no involvement in the front entrance doors whatsoever
00:33:05 on this issue of reporting matters what was the procedure if a tenant reported a an issue with a fire safety measure or any fire safety advice
00:33:16 measure or any fire safety advice what was the process in that circumstance well quite often the issues around fire safety were through complaints from a particular resident
00:33:27 resident when residents residents were allowed to bring
00:33:30 bring large bulky items down to the ground floor level put outside and we had a contractors ocs that would clear it every three days or sometimes rob or paul might pick it
00:33:41 or sometimes rob or paul might pick it up and bring it over to baseline studios so we had a big room where we would put all the bulk rubbish and once it was full the lorry would come fill it up and then take it away
00:33:52 take it away residents should not have been dumping rubbish in the communal entrance um and i'd written to people to say you know
00:34:00 know that's the fire hazard um and quite often
00:34:05 often it would either be from a particular resident
00:34:08 resident saying that it's fire safety and we haven't done anything every day almost every day there was rubbish dumped in the communal entrance and we had to clear it but we were doing it three
00:34:20 clear it but we were doing it three times a week but even if we were there every day you could have someone literally every day and there'd still be something there so you could never have it free of rubbish because people were continually adding to it
00:34:32 continually adding to it which was frustrating understand thinking of a of our example again or generally speaking was there ever any requirement to report uh issues with fire safety measures to
00:34:44 uh issues with fire safety measures to the health and safety team within tmu um and any automatic requirement to report something to that
00:34:52 not unless i mean a lot of it was around rubbish and then we would we would clear it so we didn't have to report it back but as i say that when there was that big issue i think it was near camelford that's when i think i'm sure to speak to
00:35:04 that's when i think i'm sure to speak to janice but that's when we come up with we need a plan how to stop this happening
00:35:09 happening okay can i ask you now about actions that arose from the fire risk assessments that were carried out on lancaster west and you you you talk about fire risk
00:35:20 and you you you talk about fire risk assessments in your state we'll come on too
00:35:25 we first put the statement to paragraph 31 i wonder if we could pull that paragraph up please operator
00:35:34 and zoom in
00:35:40 do you see paragraph 31 is rumble yes let's have a quick look at that i think we'll have it expanded so you can read it
00:35:46 it more easily that's okay that's it there we are thank you
00:35:57 yes you're aware that there was a the fireworks success was called carl stokes uh you rarely spoke to him um over the course of your time working
00:36:09 um over the course of your time working for the tmo could you tell us how often you did speak tomorrow how many times he's booked him i don't think i did speak to him you didn't at all i don't think so right so that would follow you didn't ever
00:36:20 so that would follow you didn't ever raise any concerns about fire safety with them
00:36:23 with them no would you were you ever provided with the
00:36:27 the the the assessments that mr stokes carried out for lancaster west or grenfell tower not that he done but when we saw him on the estate we knew that a spreadsheet would be
00:36:37 would be sorry a spreadsheet will be coming from janice ray because whenever he went round then we'd get this big spreadsheet from janice um color coded what was urgent and then i would cut and paste
00:36:49 i would cut and paste the bits what related to paul and the bits that relate to rob and say right you need to do these because janice used to report back i believe to the corporate health and safety group and we didn't want her not being able to
00:37:00 and we didn't want her not being able to report back to say that things have been completed
00:37:04 completed [Music]
00:37:06 [Music] so you would never have actually seen the fire risk assessments just janice ray's categorization of actions arising from them yes uh
00:37:17 if you didn't ever see the fire risk assessments could you have known about the range of fire safety measures that were present and um
00:37:29 and um necessary on ground on lancaster west and in grandfather would you have ever known that no
00:37:40 was consideration of the fire risk assessments an important part of your role
00:37:45 role for tmo at all well yes and that's in the context of having actions from them yes completed by by rob and paul and to my knowledge it would go up the line so i didn't want
00:37:57 would go up the line so i didn't want anyone coming back to us saying that we wasn't doing our job so we would make sure they were done but quite often um because carl would pick up on really little things which obviously was good
00:38:09 little things which obviously was good but quite often the guys would go round and
00:38:12 and stuff would already have been removed so it might be black bag outside such and such an address and fridge outside here and when the guys went round
00:38:20 round they'd already been cleared so you'd pick up on yeah everything which was good
00:38:32 was good you've talked a little bit about the actions that i rose um so paragraph 31 again if you witnessed it which is up the last sentence it says janice ray would generate
00:38:43 it says janice ray would generate spreadsheets which i think is what you told us about uh how soon after saying carl stokes on this set would you receive these spreadsheets
00:38:54 spreadsheets i couldn't say because we wouldn't always see him around but when we did we knew that
00:38:58 knew that we'd be getting spreadsheets following his visit so i don't think it was too long after can you help us with ours days weeks months
00:39:08 months probably be unfair if i did but it wouldn't be hours it wouldn't be months so i i guess it would be within weeks because like i say when we'd see him we thought oh here comes a load of work from janice
00:39:19 comes a load of work from janice um and that's just uh so you said weak sir is that i think so i think that's fair to say but i couldn't say with a hundred percent
00:39:28 percent accuracy right obviously you would have to know from when he done his inspection to when janice emailed those over right and i think you told us that those spreadsheets were color coded yes
00:39:39 spreadsheets were color coded yes can you remember the color coding yeah the amber
00:39:42 the amber red amber and green three colors yes and what
00:39:45 what was the sorry for each can you well straight away red amber you had a bit more i don't i couldn't tell you the times but we looked at them all the same whatever was on those lists again
00:39:56 whatever was on those lists again because we were so centrally based it was like just get out do the job so we can send it back to janice and all completed
00:40:03 completed you you said str uh red straight away but can you yeah there's a little bit more detail on what straightaway meant
00:40:12 well i would say the same day but that's just me from my looking at it if i got something like that red means it's urgent
00:40:19 urgent and we're all on this state there's no reason why paul couldn't go and do it that same day and likewise with rob and i don't think there was ever an issue with them doing that so
00:40:29 that so may i again summarize what i understand you've been saying spreadsheet coming from janice ray you look at the red actions paul or rob may be sitting in the office with you yep and you would say can you
00:40:40 with you yep and you would say can you go and continue yeah how would you monitor that they'd been completed because they had to report back to me because i then had to complete put the information into the spreadsheet and i was the one responsible for
00:40:51 and i was the one responsible for sending it back to janice so it would depend on them telling you there was you didn't go and check yourself for example no because otherwise i would have been doing those inspections did you ever as a
00:41:04 those inspections did you ever as a in an appraisal exercise check that they'd they've done that what they've said they've done or did you just trust them no but i walked around the estate myself as well sometimes so
00:41:16 as well sometimes so on those occasions sorry i interrupted you no so
00:41:21 you no so no but not that i sat back in the office and just believed everything they told me
00:41:25 me um i knew they was out there cole i don't know how often he done his visits but he would be back if something wasn't done
00:41:31 done then we would it would come to light somewhere or a resident would complain um you said you you you would have walked around the estate would you no i often walked around the estate yeah
00:41:42 often walked around the estate yeah would you ever have done so with the the spreadsheet of fra actions to check that they've been done can't say i did no uh so you would have assigned that work to them they would have come back
00:41:54 work to them they would have come back and said yeah it's done you'd have checked that off and sent that information to dennis ray yes and again how would you have done that and an email a spreadsheet on the actual spreadsheet that she sent
00:42:05 on the actual spreadsheet that she sent so you could there was a box where you could put your information in save it and then send it back right
00:42:14 did residents ever complain about the length of time it would take for the tmu to resolve any issues identified in the fire risk assessments not to my knowledge no i don't think they knew that we'd done
00:42:26 i don't think they knew that we'd done the fire risk assessments uh can we move now to the minutes of the health and safety operational meeting on the 23rd of february 2015. uh
00:42:38 on the 23rd of february 2015. uh the document references
00:42:43 one tm008694717 nine
00:43:05 could you just look at that talking no no
00:43:09 no to be clear you're not listed as ben in his hands at this meeting
00:43:14 thank you
00:43:31 you weren't at the meeting would you ever have attended these meetings to health and safety operational committee meetings i don't think so would you ever have attended any health and safety committee there are a number
00:43:42 and safety committee there are a number of health and safety committees at cmo during the course of your employment would you ever have attended any of them i don't recall unless i'm i'm on any minutes of annie but i don't recall
00:43:53 minutes of annie but i don't recall um
00:43:57 no i was really anything to do with lancaster west was we were gone and done our own stuff at lancaster west the tmo had meetings i wasn't involved in would you have been sent the minutes of
00:44:08 of a health and safety committee i doubt it if you had been sent them do you recall really any minutes after that if i had them i'm sure would have read them but i don't ever recall being
00:44:19 them but i don't ever recall being it's not the same structure that how i kind of work it now you know if there's meetings you get minutes people keep you involved it wasn't like that at the tmo lancaster west was pretty much on its own okay
00:44:32 on its own okay can we look at these minutes at the bottom of the page under the heading fra stats you see what's recorded there jw confirmed there had been an
00:44:43 jw confirmed there had been an improvement in the number of outstanding foreigns
00:44:46 foreigns a b had a contractor who has undertaken the fras in each after a recent review lancaster west has now become a priority and jw and siobhan rumble are in discussions about this do you see that yeah
00:44:57 about this do you see that yeah do you remember that that that 2015 i don't know i don't remember any discussion with jonas ray but i'd stand in there for reactions in lancaster i'm not saying it didn't happen but i
00:45:09 i'm not saying it didn't happen but i don't i don't remember it yeah do you do you recall why lancaster west may have become a priority at that stage no i don't there was a a a cause carried out a fire risk
00:45:20 a a cause carried out a fire risk assessment on the 17th of october 2014 in lancaster west uh sorry in grenfell tower
00:45:28 tower did you recall whether the there are a lot of actions rising from that that were
00:45:33 were a priority my recollection is whenever we received those spreadsheets um from janice i would send paul and rob to go and check the stuff that was on
00:45:44 to go and check the stuff that was on there as i say it wasn't there wasn't major stuff on there to my knowledge um and then we would send it back you don't recall any specific incident or issue rising in 2015
00:45:57 issue rising in 2015 no the only one from the fra i really remember was the camelford they had like little cages in um next to the houses it was like a communal entrance and they was all
00:46:08 communal entrance and they was all blocked up with people's belongings and that was raised by coal and i remember speaking to janice about that because i think several years earlier
00:46:16 earlier janice had done a letter saying what you can and can't keep in these cages um and then so i remember her giving me the detail of that letter and we then wrote to people
00:46:27 wrote to people we had to go and follow it up and make sure they cleared all those cages can i ask you to look next and can i ask you again about these self-closing devices on door briefly doors briefly can we look at tm008596
00:46:43 that should be an email from janice raychu
00:46:47 raychu um if you yes thank you that email she sends it to the 17th of december just have a look at that it says hi siobhan our fire risk assessors race is concerned that in conversation with a
00:46:59 concerned that in conversation with a few of the tenants of grenfell tower they've advised that sheamus had disconnected self-closures on their flat entrance door and at least one of these cases is said to be due to the talent perpetually locking himself out of his flat
00:47:25 uh do you recall that email um no can we scroll up to your response which is at the top of the chain but before we do can you just remind us who sheamus was
00:47:36 sheamus was yeah simus was our handyman thank you very much
00:47:39 very much yes mr sorry thank you mr chairman
00:47:44 so that's that's shameless done there's actually yes right um and you're saying this email you you told him
00:47:50 told him yeah no do you remember a conversation with mr dunley uh where you discussed removing yeah i actually don't and when i saw this email i thought well obviously me and janice must have had a
00:48:01 obviously me and janice must have had a conversation um and from janice's email she's saying that they have found out he was removing them please tell him to stop doing it and so obviously i must have had a conversation with him because my response was told him
00:48:12 response was told him this is where i actually rang a colleague because i was thinking i don't remember this because we didn't really touch front doors and i said do you remember this and why would he have taken those off
00:48:23 would he have taken those off and he said that the doors were really stiff and sometimes old people found it really hard to get in their properties or open the door to get out and he removed some of the door closes but i didn't know that at the time
00:48:35 but i didn't know that at the time right your evidence says that you don't recollect this no i didn't this is why i clarified of a colleague um
00:48:43 you may not recognize them whether you checked he'd stopped doing it well if i've responded to janice to say told him then i've 100 had a conversation with seamus do you
00:48:54 had a conversation with seamus do you recall if you checked whether he was doing it at any stage after this email and to be honest i wouldn't have known the implications of taking that um closer off a front
00:49:06 taking that um closer off a front entrance door you wouldn't have known him no
00:49:11 maybe i should have done but no i don't well
00:49:14 well yes did you take any action relation to the door closures that mr dunley had removed
00:49:22 removed no because like i say i wouldn't have known that they were part of the fire rigs on their front entrance door uh would you know if if anyone replaced the
00:49:35 would you know if if anyone replaced the door closures that mr dunley had removed do you know who that family did that i don't know i doubt it if he took them off
00:49:42 off did you ever ask or check when our any other team of staff were or may have been removing door closures i doubt it um sheamus was the handyman so if he was
00:49:54 sheamus was the handyman so if he was um you know rob and paul wouldn't be doing stuff like that not to my knowledge
00:49:58 knowledge what about external contractors engaged by tml then then i wouldn't know because if they've got any contract with the front entrance stores because they like i say they weren't part of our
00:50:09 like i say they weren't part of our inspections it was only the communal doors
00:50:11 doors not front entrance doors right and you wouldn't have checked after that they'd been to look at the door no would anyone have checked i don't know can we look uh next on a bike
00:50:23 can we look uh next on a bike at some email correspondence which is about and stay put advice given so that's that emails at
00:50:31 tm01001677
00:50:39 the first email in the chain if you can scroll down is on the third page of that you scroll down to the bottom please operator
00:50:49 uh there's an email from you to janice ray
00:50:53 ray on the 9th of october 2012. you say good afternoon janice i've been going through our security document with the manager at axis and there were two things he asked me i
00:51:04 and there were two things he asked me i wasn't sure about was hoping you could help me he wants to know who our fire marshals were he asked if we have an evacuation procedure for grandfather in the event of a fire
00:51:13 of a fire uh again do you remember this email exchange no it's a long time no can you remember who access were than contractors now can you remember
00:51:25 than contractors now can you remember why he the um the the manager at access wanted to know about the evacuation procedure i really don't sorry what type of contractors were they
00:51:36 contractors were they i don't know
00:51:40 uh in terms of an evacuation procedure uh did you know before you emailed janice wright did you know if there was one in place at grandfather no i know that it was a stay put policy
00:51:51 no i know that it was a stay put policy um like manny manny blocks are and i think there's lots of documentation that was out there to say it was
00:51:59 it was saying it was staple i think there was leaflets near the lift or i know that it was put in our newsletters and that's
00:52:09 yeah can we look down at jonas ray's response which thank you so she responds same day
00:52:25 hi schven according to our last list of fire marshals for grandfather victoria and adelulla she explains that areola relocated and
00:52:36 she explains that areola relocated and victoria's off to snowy and dennis ray says that the estate officers and the state inspectors are trained annually in fire safety so any of them should be able to act in this capacity that's as a fire marshal
00:52:47 capacity that's as a fire marshal at grenfell tower um were you aware of that that there was an expectation that they would act instead of victorian adeola prior to this email i can't recall now
00:53:00 prior to this email i can't recall now did you ever discuss acting as a fire marshal with any estate inspectors no
00:53:10 we we talked a moment ago you told us about go about the um stay put policy did you know any of the detail of the staple policy
00:53:21 any of the detail of the staple policy no
00:53:21 no only that obviously if the fire is in your flat then you get out it's common sense but other than that stay in your flat it was a concrete building so it would never have um spread and if it was a flat the fire
00:53:34 um spread and if it was a flat the fire brigade would come and put the fire out that was in that flat and then people would be okay did you ever ask janice ray um for assistance with
00:53:46 janice ray um for assistance with how someone would evacuate if the fire wasn't there flat for example i don't remember no you were aware that there were there were residents of grenfell tower who
00:53:57 who could be described as having mobility issues or vulnerabilities is that correct yes did you ever discuss with janice ray what to do in the event of a fire for those residents no
00:54:09 residents no you ever ever question anyone in tmo about
00:54:13 about what those residents would do or should do an event of a fire no because my again understand is the stay put policy the fire brigade will come and they will deal with the situation
00:54:29 the that's right in that email goes on to say in the final paragraph and a related note can you please advise who carries out the weekly testing ground for fire alarm if there is a training need which is
00:54:40 if there is a training need which is preventing this from being tested then please let me know and i'll ask ricky to sort
00:54:45 sort your response which should come above that email if we can scroll up to that police operator
00:54:54 you see your response there okay great yes there is a training issue would be grateful if you could arrange for us to have this
00:55:06 for us to have this no what has happened is janice ray has asked you whether there's training need you haven't gone directly to janus it's a reactive as opposed to uh what might be described as proactive is that correct in this instance yeah uh
00:55:19 is that correct in this instance yeah uh were there any other occasions where something similar happened there was a reactive request for training if we see a
00:55:27 a proactive request not that i can remember
00:55:30 remember so would any training have been done on a reactive basis then
00:55:36 not to my knowledge other than i think it was when it was reported one of the fire extinguishers was condemned
00:55:44 and then i put i think i can't remember 100 but i think that's when i might have asked for
00:55:49 asked for some refresher training for rob and paul right can we look next please at email correspondence from october 2014
00:56:00 email correspondence from october 2014 the references iws quadruple zero one nine four eight
00:56:09 if we could please uh on that chain please operator
00:56:20 if we go don't scroll down to the bottom please
00:56:26 through your email sorry it's from beverly coleman to you 3rd of october 2014 and what ms coleman says is following
00:56:37 and what ms coleman says is following our conversation above resident cold regarding the walkway of grenfell tower stairs has been blocked off not a new since last night resident was very annoyed due health and safety in case of a fire
00:56:48 health and safety in case of a fire also said she called both arlo for ryden maxine is on holiday and christina mobile went straight to voicemail your response if we can scroll up to it please
00:57:00 uh i'd like to look at the second paragraph there do you see in the event of a fire do you see that yes as we know there is a statement policy and evacuation would be via the left not the stairwell
00:57:12 left not the stairwell anyhow the barrier would be moved in this case
00:57:17 so we see there appears to be your knowledge of there may be circumstances where evacuation is necessary with a staple policy is that correct
00:57:29 with a staple policy is that correct yes but even reading that now i know you shouldn't get in a lift if there's a fire so
00:57:34 fire so but it says what it says yeah well with that can you recall why you said that at the time no because obviously there was there was only two ways out either the stairs
00:57:45 only two ways out either the stairs or the lift and they had i can't remember how many floors in grenfell tower
00:57:52 i can ask you to think about that response can you recall whether you said you referred to use of the lift because you had been told to say that or because you assumed
00:58:04 to say that or because you assumed that was how evacuation should be conducted
00:58:07 conducted i really don't know but don't forget well i don't know
00:58:15 can i move on now to asking you some questions about responding to deficiency notices
00:58:22 notices right you're aware of what a deficiency notice from the london fire brigade is have you ever heard that term before
00:58:32 i think i have but i don't know in relation to what perhaps we can look can we go please to an email sent on the 27th of march 2014
00:58:43 an email sent on the 27th of march 2014 urine operator pleases tmo 0085 three
00:58:54 uh on the if we go to the third page we should have an email from janice ray yeah you see that at the bottom of the page thank you operator
00:59:07 operator just have a look at that please
00:59:20 do you call that email not specifically no
00:59:27 can we look at the deficiency notice uh itself so that is it tmo one thousand five six four six
00:59:43 nine looking at that does that document ring any bells with you do you recall seeing that
00:59:50 just looking at it no i don't could we scroll to the third page of that which is the schedule
00:59:58 and can we yeah thank you thank you just point out to you then this is the schedule
01:00:05 schedule of um
01:00:08 including areas of concern that the lfb had noted does this ring any bells or cause you to recall it really doesn't no
01:00:19 really doesn't no but i know i'm copied in on the email but no
01:00:24 can you can you help us with whether you would have opened the document up and and looked at it well i'm sure i would have done if it was sent to me to ask for me to comment but i'm just wondering if it was something because where alex was copied in i can't
01:00:36 where alex was copied in i can't remember his job title um whether it was something he done and i was copied in i don't know but this is not something i'd look at and say i remember those right can you recall whether you took any
01:00:48 can you recall whether you took any action
01:00:49 action in respect to this deficiency notice i can't recall because i don't even remember this notice can you recall whether anyone else did no would you have known if anyone else had taken action respecting it
01:01:04 uh we touched a moment ago i'm going to move on to a slightly different topic we touched on it a moment ago at this issue of resonance with restricted mobility or vulnerable resonance in in in grenfell tower
01:01:18 whose responsibility was it to to collect information on on residents with disabilities or mobility issues or vulnerabilities in grenfell tower i
01:01:29 vulnerabilities in grenfell tower i don't think it was anyone's responsibility to go collecting it when people
01:01:35 were on the register for housing then that information should have been given to rbkc as part of their request for housing then that would have been looked at by the people who've done
01:01:47 been looked at by the people who've done the allocations and if they thought that they were fit and that met their need then they would be housed after that if they um had any mobility
01:01:59 after that if they um had any mobility issues
01:02:00 issues then they would speak to janice the housing officer who would liaise with rb rbkc and getting whatever support they needed because sometimes i'm sorry sometimes when people they might have
01:02:12 sometimes when people they might have been okay when they moved in but then have issues later on and have to move out so what would happen is they would speak to janice she would take the details she would liaise with
01:02:23 take the details she would liaise with they had two support workers at rbkc and they would then speak to them they might have to contact the doctor to get medical advice and support their application for a move right that's how it would
01:02:35 for a move right that's how it would work correct let's ask you clarify the janice you're talking to is janice jones my housing officer yeah no were you ever told that you were responsible for collecting information about vulnerabilities in
01:02:48 information about vulnerabilities in term of premises not directly like that but sometimes we've done lots of exercises
01:02:53 exercises where we would do tense the audience and not that that was that wasn't part of collecting that information but there might be um where we'd have to we filled in lots of questionnaires and forms when
01:03:04 questionnaires and forms when we were doing the regeneration and to my knowledge i think we were then looking at people who to move out
01:03:11 move out so i think you're constantly looking at stuff like that right you you you told us very helpfully that there are lots of ways in which lots of questions can you help us in the more detail what
01:03:22 help us in the more detail what kind of questions or the names of those questions or exercises were you refer to tenancy audits with any others um i mean the tendency we done was literally to it was
01:03:35 we done was literally to it was primarily to see if people were subletting so it's a pretty straightforward form but then a new form was introduced by teresa brown what was about kind of 50 pages long from what i remember um so that would have collected loads
01:03:47 um so that would have collected loads and loads of data but there would be other forms um i mean some obviously i've listened to the inquiry but some we knew you know we would
01:03:56 would knock how do people want to be um consulted because you know we would do evening meetings and we'd be sitting there there might be two people turn up so we'd do afternoons mornings so you'd
01:04:09 so we'd do afternoons mornings so you'd gather information and ask them about the works and what they liked or didn't like so there was lots of communications going on
01:04:17 going on i understand can i ask you to look again at your first step in paragraph 37 please operator [Music]
01:04:36 you see that yes so what i'm going to ask you about is this the spreadsheet recording information about vulnerable residents um now can i ask you to
01:04:47 um now can i ask you to look at document tmo 00880587 please
01:05:06 [Music]
01:05:20 so
01:05:24 do you recall did you recognize that document
01:05:28 document um not 100 but i think that looks like what i'd ask for the information um for the vulnerable list or elderly list i wanted
01:05:39 wanted for sheamus it was for some extra work for shameless to do but i think it's kind of got a bit blown up in my witness statement because i couldn't remember exactly first whether we held a spreadsheet
01:05:50 first whether we held a spreadsheet whether we updated it um and then i remember david noble he was kind of like the go-to person for information and the only the only reason i'd asked
01:06:01 and the only the only reason i'd asked for this information was because sometimes sheamus he was a handyman and he had some time on his hands he cared about the people on the estate so what i'd done i thought if i get a
01:06:13 so what i'd done i thought if i get a list of all that and i can't remember if i actually said vulnerable people or elderly people in grenfell tower so i'd asked david for that list and then i set seamus a target of trying to do six courtesy calls a week
01:06:25 do six courtesy calls a week and that was just to fill his down time and that was literally just to do a door knock and say is there anything i can help you with so it might have been you might have had a an elderly or a vulnerable person sitting in dark
01:06:36 vulnerable person sitting in dark because they couldn't change a light bulb and that was obviously not part of our job
01:06:40 our job but sheamus could do that so he would fix people's doors or change washers on taps and that's why i had that spreadsheet and he would work his way through that
01:06:51 and he would work his way through that spreadsheet right can i can i just go back a couple of steps from what you've said this this bridge does it look does it look similar it does look similar because it was just a list of names and
01:07:02 because it was just a list of names and addresses
01:07:03 addresses and the way you would obtain such spreadsheet is by asking someone to provide it yes the information that was inputted that made up that spreadsheet you know where it came from um sign ups
01:07:16 um sign ups the information from sign ups um stuff that we gathered on the estate because as i say
01:07:21 as i say people like the team knew people on the estate very well and got on with them very well they'd worked there for years um so you might have someone who's just come out of hospital having an operation
01:07:33 come out of hospital having an operation and is quite unwell so then they would feed that back to david noble if it was something it was going to be maybe long term so we would just i guess they would just email david through
01:07:44 email david through with that process that helpful example of someone who's just come out of hospital
01:07:49 hospital without information and be fed through on a
01:07:52 on a was it required to be fed through it was just on an ad hoc basis yeah on an ad hoc basis i believe right uh this information then was in existence or these lists were in
01:08:03 existence or these lists were in existence
01:08:04 existence before you you started working for the tmos i don't think they were lists i think they're all in the system so you could say to david could you give me a list of all the um maybe
01:08:16 give me a list of all the um maybe portuguese speaking people whatever it was i think he could take that data out of the system right and you would then give the list to uh seamus dunley and ask them to
01:08:27 list to uh seamus dunley and ask them to go and pay courtesy calls i did that was a one-off exercise i wanted to do with sheamus to feel some downtime but also to help the residents on the estate understanding the criteria
01:08:38 on the estate understanding the criteria for for that exercise was do you say elderly or vulnerable you know what i honestly can't remember whether i
01:08:44 whether i said because as i'm reading this i'm going over so vulnerable did i say elderly
01:08:49 elderly i suspect it might have been um whoever was on the vulnerable list because it's to help whoever you can help
01:08:57 as part of that help excuse me was there any consideration given by you or anyone to asking residents about needs in the event of a fire
01:09:09 event of a fire no evacuation
01:09:20 no evacuation was it clear to you that there may have been such people living in grandfather that would have had difficulty in the event of a fire um i don't doubt yes
01:09:32 of a fire um i don't doubt yes but like i said i believe that it's a staple policy the fire brigades will turn up and they will then help those people to safety that was my understanding we may we may
01:09:44 that was my understanding we may we may come back
01:09:45 come back to that issue in a moment but sticking with with these sheets were these were these spreadsheets as far as you're aware spreadsheets that retained as a spreadsheet in the system
01:09:56 retained as a spreadsheet in the system or they always generated depending on the request that was made yeah my understanding is that he generated this one for me sent it to me in an excel spreadsheet which is what i kept and then gave to sheamus
01:10:07 sheamus probably emailed it to sheamus saying this is the list start at the top and work your way through and try and do i believe i gave my target six a week uh can we look at your first witness
01:10:20 uh can we look at your first witness statement
01:10:22 statement paragraph 37 please operator last sentence miss rumble yep
01:10:34 janice jones dion wilkes would have residents this list if needed yeah no i don't think yeah i think i've mixed that up when i say that i believe that this was in
01:10:45 believe that this was in um already in existence i mean the information was already in existence um and as i say i couldn't remember whether they updated it or not but i now know that they didn't
01:10:56 know that they didn't and i think even when i watched um david it
01:11:00 it clarified for me listening to david exactly how that information um was updated
01:11:08 updated what would that have been then is it possible that janice jones and dale milks may have contacted david noble with information about i'm sure they did i'm sure they did and again that would have been on an ad hoc basis yes it
01:11:19 have been on an ad hoc basis yes it would and it would just be via an email uh
01:11:27 uh can we look
01:11:30 and i think it's your third witness state in the paragraph 13 it's yes third one statement tmo zero zero eight seven zero nine four three
01:11:42 it's about the capitalist system paragraph 13 you say you can't recall using it no would others have used that system the capital system
01:11:53 the capital system i'm sure i mean i've worked in different places and there's always different names for different systems so i really can't remember this one and quite often when you're managing the team they're the ones who are using the
01:12:05 team they're the ones who are using the system
01:12:05 system you don't usually have to use the system you're managing them to use it but crm wasn't there i think that was introduced after i left well i think i know it was introduced after i left
01:12:18 you've told us that the information was inputted on an ad hoc basis would you accept that as a consequence of that there may have been residents who
01:12:27 who did have vulnerabilities or issues that may have been missed from this list or this information i'm sure but unless a resident comes forward and tells you
01:12:39 a resident comes forward and tells you um that they need support or help you're not going to know unless you're visiting them for another reason and it comes out in conversation you wouldn't know that you just wouldn't
01:12:50 you wouldn't know that you just wouldn't know that there was no system or process or audit in place to ensure the information was accurate
01:12:58 no one ever checked it checked what the information contained on the system held by that david noble could access i guess it would have been put in at the time um
01:13:10 time um and accurate at the time whether that was reviewed i can't tell you that but we wouldn't have been the ones to review that was there any guidance given of what
01:13:21 was there any guidance given of what exactly constituted a vulnerability or someone who should be added to
01:13:26 added to this information should be added to yeah i don't think at that time um specifically but vulnerable was it could be anybody anybody who needed extra help so
01:13:38 anybody who needed extra help so whether it was you know some mental health issues it could as i say like someone could have broken their legs they're in a cast for eight weeks it really does depend yeah whoever
01:13:50 it really does depend yeah whoever needed support and help would it would you ever have considered whether
01:13:55 whether ability to evacuate in the event of a fire was something that should be um investigated or information collected on that issue that ever happened it sounds absolutely
01:14:06 ever happened it sounds absolutely necessary now but at the time no because like i say unfortunately it was it's a staple policy unless the fire's in your flat you stay
01:14:18 unless the fire's in your flat you stay there
01:14:19 there and the fire brigade will come and they will assist the people who need assisting
01:14:23 assisting and even having looked at this now and obviously with everything that's going on with the peeps and where i currently work it's like well what exactly could we do if we had a peeps
01:14:35 could we do if we had a peeps you know i mean i'm asking myself that question now what could i do and i think the only thing we can do um is literally check these people and whoever couldn't get out in a fire needs to be rehoused
01:14:47 needs to be rehoused well it's possible do you think that uh someone who had mobility difficulties might need some assistance in
01:14:59 might need some assistance in evacuating the building because of a fire in
01:15:03 fire in his or her own flat or maybe in the commonal area i mean the concept of evacuation even in the context of an overall state but policy was still there wasn't it
01:15:15 but policy was still there wasn't it yeah but who would do that i'm not sure that's the question yeah who would do that i'm not sure one one more question on this issue mr
01:15:26 one one more question on this issue mr chairman if i may the the sheet that we looked at uh who could access it was it only david noble or
01:15:36 noble or could anyone generate that sheet like i said in the statement and begin i was thinking i'm sure we could all access it because i had the the excel spreadsheet but no the data that went
01:15:46 that went via david in in his system i don't believe we had access to that was the only way of accessing that asking mr noble yes and there was no issue because if we
01:15:58 yes and there was no issue because if we needed something then david would give us what we needed providing it was we was allowed to have it if i may in the context of an emergency if you needed a list of that information you would
01:16:09 a list of that information you would have had to have gone to mr noble you couldn't have generated it or found that information in another way yourself i don't believe so mr chairman is there the questions in that issue um
01:16:21 is there the questions in that issue um would it be an appropriate time to yes are you moving on to something else yes well it probably would be a good time
01:16:26 time wouldn't it yes all right thank you um as i think we said uh mr rumble we have a break during the morning you probably know that anyway so we'll take it at this point and we'll
01:16:37 so we'll take it at this point and we'll come back at 25 to 12 please and i have to ask you as i've asked all other witnesses please don't talk about your evidence to anyone while you're out of the room all right thank you thank you very much
01:16:48 all right thank you thank you very much i'd like to give the ushers in please
01:17:00 good i think it was to go just for my own interest how are we going along we roughly in line with expectations i would hesitate to say i think we may be slightly ahead of that expectation for the championship
01:17:12 of that expectation for the championship well that's not a message you often get all right thank you very much i shouldn't
01:17:15 shouldn't have said it you'll see 25 to 12.
01:35:45 would you also just rumble to come back in please okay
01:36:03 all right mr rumble ready to carry on yes thank you good thank you very much yes mr good thank you mr chairman mr rumble
01:36:10 rumble in the break i i've uh discussed the the transcript feed which comes through with the transcriber and one issue is that if you or i talk over each other it gets missed in the transcript i will
01:36:21 it gets missed in the transcript i will try my best to make sure i don't try talk over you and would you mind the same sorry no not at all it's one thing that happens with these i'm going to ask you first of all about something that you
01:36:32 something that you some evidence that you gave us earlier this morning in the truck and i'm going to ask you look the transcripts operator could you go to the transcript from this morning page 13 please
01:36:45 and it's line at 10. do you see that mr rumble i asked a question
01:36:52 question you were also aware there was a fire brigade drop key which could be used by the esa's or the fire brigade too and there's an example of um yes talk over
01:37:03 talk over and then on down the transcript just the bottom of page 13 i asked the question if i drop key were you who told you about that who informed you about it you said i think just paul and rob when
01:37:16 you said i think just paul and rob when they've done their checks now can i just ask you about that again um
01:37:22 um what were the checks that you were referring to there i think that was to make sure the doors opened i think the drop key was at the top of the lift and it was like a t key from memory
01:37:33 like a t key from memory so the drop key was kept by the left no i don't think it was kept by the lift i think
01:37:38 think it must have been in their office with all the keys right they used to go around like jailers with loads of keys
01:37:46 sorry the the t that you're referring to that's a box into which the key was inserted
01:37:54 inserted is that correct i think it was like you know like an fb1 key they're like it's like a t-shape and i remember there's like a little hole at the top of the lift and
01:38:02 lift and this is just from memory i might be wrong but i think it's they would put the key in and turn it and i think it opens the doors and it was just the check that was working and that key sorry if i've got that right that key
01:38:15 sorry if i've got that right that key as far as you recall was kept in the office or on there i believe so or it could have been on i mean they had honestly lots and lots of keys because there was always about the estate
01:38:25 estate so the the checks were carried out they were done by paul and or rob yes did the fire brigade ever come
01:38:34 ever come and carry out checks i'm sure they did because there's lots of reference to the fire brigade um coming and conversations between the fire brigade and janice but i wasn't involved in arranging any
01:38:46 but i wasn't involved in arranging any of those so i didn't meet them would you have been involved in any way would they have come into the office for example beforehand and asked for the care not to my knowledge no
01:38:58 the care not to my knowledge no can i then return to uh the thread of the questions that we're dealing with before the break i'm going to ask you next about again
01:39:09 i'm going to ask you next about again about the fire risk assessments can i ask you to look please at cst quadruple zero three zero eight four all right
01:39:23 let's have a quick look at that
01:39:41 yep do you recognize it i don't know do you recall if uh you would have provided any information to mr stux to assist him in the preparation of this fire assessment
01:39:53 the preparation of this fire assessment fire risk assessment not at all i never i don't ever remember having a conversation with carl stokes he would primarily just be walking around the estate picking up issues and then reporting
01:40:04 picking up issues and then reporting back to janice ray and we got that information via the fire risk assessment sent through from janus right can we look at page 20
01:40:15 right can we look at page 20 in that document
01:40:19 and you see there there's a title uh disabled 13 disabled people yes you see that
01:40:27 see that and you see that underneath that says it is considered that the building is provided with reasonable arrangements for means of escape for disabled people and the the question box is ticked yes
01:40:38 and the the question box is ticked yes do you see that yes would you have ever seen that aspect of that report not that i recall not at all were you aware of what those means of a k at the reasonable
01:40:49 means of a k at the reasonable arrangements for means of escape were for disabled people no in the comments box mr stokes has written at the time of the risk assessment there is no evidence of any
01:41:00 assessment there is no evidence of any resident within the premises we suffer from sensory impairment to such level that would prevent them from hearing i started warning a fire or a loud knocking on their entrance door to warn them this is shortly after you you well
01:41:12 this is shortly after you you well perhaps a year after you joined tmu but what mr stokes has said in that assessment does that accord with your recollection of the residents in grenfell in november
01:41:24 of the residents in grenfell in november 2012
01:41:25 2012 it doesn't but my question would be where he got this information because how would he know that do you know where he got there no i don't know he never but he would have to speak to someone to get that information unless he door knocked people which i don't think he would have
01:41:37 people which i don't think he would have done the next paragraph is tmo have recently introduced a comprehensive program to gathering information about tenants
01:41:48 to gathering information about tenants including any disabilities and their physical ability and the ability to respond to any emergency situations this information will be imputed on a tp tracker system and held
01:42:00 on a tp tracker system and held centrally
01:42:03 were you aware of that comprehensive program other than that which we discussed before the break i wasn't no would you have been aware of it if it had existed do you think is area not always because
01:42:14 because the tmo done lots of things um and i wasn't we wasn't always made aware because obviously it wasn't just lancaster west there was the north and south of the borough so we wasn't always involved in
01:42:25 so we wasn't always involved in everything they did
01:42:31 there was reference there to a tp tracker system did you ever know of it or have access such
01:42:38 such no the first time i heard that was when i was listening to david's evidence right in so much as mr stokes says that there's a comprehensive program of information gathering
01:42:50 gathering is that incorrect as far as you're concerned no maybe it was probably correct
01:42:54 correct but that was something the tmo done and maybe held um and not necessarily shared with us at lancaster west probably correct but you didn't know about it no
01:43:06 uh then i think i think it's over the page if we could go over the page please operator
01:43:12 mr says the additional information will be used to assess the residents may require additional devices to provide them with only one in the smoke fire in their home and or development of peeps now again you mentioned peeps before they break
01:43:24 you mentioned peeps before they break uh you're familiar with it no now i am yeah when did you become familiar with it first
01:43:31 it first um when all this when i was being asked to give evidence and i saw peeps and i was thinking you know i looked into it i thought we've i've never done any personal evacuation evacuation plans
01:43:43 any personal evacuation evacuation plans have you ever heard of it before i don't recall i had no you didn't recall overhearing discussion of personal emergency evacuation plans or peeps at tmo no i don't what about your
01:43:55 at tmo no i don't what about your previous rules i think you no because they it was they were different roles i was a head of income so that didn't have any bearing on this and then
01:44:06 have any bearing on this and then previous roles before that were like a housing officer roles um so i wouldn't have been aware do i take it it follows then that you never referred any residents to definitely not would you have known who
01:44:19 definitely not would you have known who to refer such resident to yes if i'd have known about peeps um then my go-to person would have been janice
01:44:31 looking back now do you consider it that during your time of your employment with tmo there may have been residents in grenfell tower who you may have referred to for a peep
01:44:42 have referred to for a peep how did you know about them at the time 100 there would have been people definitely that we would do peeps with but i didn't know that at the time
01:44:54 can we move uh two years ahead mr tux produces another fire risk assessment in october 2014 that's at cst
01:45:05 uh quadruple zero double zero nine two i hope i've got that right
01:45:21 no that's that's a similar document to previously the the date has changed obviously 17th of october 2014. it's during the time of your your currency at tima do you remember
01:45:33 your currency at tima do you remember seeing that document i don't i can only assume that these maybe were what cole filled in and sent to janice just looking at them but i know i wouldn't have seen anything like this you wouldn't have seen it i
01:45:44 like this you wouldn't have seen it i don't believe so
01:45:48 can we look at page 21
01:45:55 [Music] uh now i we looked at this in the 2012 fra um
01:46:04 fra um in this one two years later the warding appears to be the same do you agree yes and what mr stokes says is
01:46:16 again a recently introduced system
01:46:23 so tmo have recently introduced a comprehensive program to gather information that appears to be the same language you you say you didn't see this um fra in october 2014
01:46:37 fra in october 2014 was there or were you aware of a recent introduced system to gather information about vulnerabilities or disabilities no no not that i can remember is is the answer
01:46:48 answer the same as before there may have been one you just weren't aware of it yes
01:46:57 in 2014 well sorry i'm going to ask you that question can we look next to the document which is the fire safety strategy please go to tm0083
01:47:17 thank you this document is tmo fire safety strategy
01:47:26 have you seen this document before not i recall
01:47:32 you don't recall reading it no and i don't know yeah no did you know such a document do you recall
01:47:41 recall such a document being in existence i don't know
01:47:47 again not saying there wasn't one but not that i can remember
01:48:13 can we look at uh jonas rey's witness statement or one of her witness tips to the inquiry please the reference for that is tm00847305
01:48:25 the reference for that is tm00847305 and it's page 35 please operator paragraphs one one four and one one five could could you just have a
01:48:36 could could you just have a read of those two paragraphs please
01:48:59 yep i haven't seen what janice ray says about
01:49:04 about um peeps do you can you recall any being advised of any system whereby you could advise the health and safety team of a vulnerable resident who
01:49:15 resident who may require a peep no you're never aware of this as well i wasn't no i mean my colleagues would see vulnerable people and speak to them
01:49:26 see vulnerable people and speak to them about their needs but not in relation to having a home fire safety visit maybe they did but i can't recall that i
01:49:37 maybe they did but i can't recall that i know that the fire brigade did go round when i think whether to do with the smoke alarms but i'm not sure who arranged those visits
01:49:56 i'm not sure who arranged those visits in the in the years that you worked as a manager in lancaster west was there any circumstance or time at which you
01:50:08 considered or were asked to consider the evacuation of vulnerable residents no never there's never something never come up as far as you recall no
01:50:19 can i ask you some questions now about communications you had with some residents
01:50:30 throughout the the project the refurbishment project you attended uh resident meetings is that correct yes can we look at your second witness statement please paragraph seven the reference is tmo
01:50:44 paragraph seven the reference is tmo thank you you have it you you tell us there about opinions
01:50:55 you you tell us there about opinions that you offered during the meetings can you give us any more detail about uh the subject matter of your opinions or what kind of things you would have given an opinion on
01:51:09 i'm not too sure at the um i mean i know i attended the meetings but i was more of a liaison between ryden's and the tmo [Music]
01:51:19 [Music] but you
01:51:22 but you i think you give us an indication of that in your first witness statement um perhaps we can just look at that tmo quadruple zero double zero sorry
01:51:41 tm000891 forgive me paragraph 22 on page five please
01:51:52 thank you just if you don't mind refreshing your memory there you say essentially i was there as a familiar face to the residents and to be the liaison between the residents and those directly involved in the
01:52:03 and those directly involved in the refurbishment yes can you recall at this stage what the the general consensus or opinion was of residents in respect to the refurbishment were they
01:52:14 respect to the refurbishment were they in support of it or were they against it um of it initially the majority of residents were quite happy that there was going to be a lot of money
01:52:25 there was going to be a lot of money spent on the tower it was well needed um but unfortunately there was just literally a handful of residents that had an
01:52:36 that had an issue from before my time who no matter what you done they would just you couldn't have an evening meeting they'd be shouting and screaming in the meetings
01:52:47 shouting and screaming in the meetings we'd have to stop the meetings they would discourage people from coming to the community like to consultation meetings and it was just really difficult because i think most people
01:52:59 i think most people um were happy that they were getting new windows and new heating systems you know do you recall any concerns that were raised can you can
01:53:10 raised can you can give us some detail about particular concerns that may have been raised by residents
01:53:14 residents regardless there was a few i mean i remember when um they was originally told the hiu unit was going in their kitchen and then when the work started we then
01:53:26 and then when the work started we then found out that some people were saying they're being told it's going in the hallway and they wasn't happy and i remember being a meeting at the tmo
01:53:35 tmo and in that meeting said you know is this true are they being put in the hallway
01:53:40 hallway because people are not happy um it was true
01:53:44 true um and i just i said well i'm not being funny if if i thought in my house it was going in the kitchen then someone tried to put it in the hallway i won't be very happy either so
01:53:55 be very happy either so i remember kind of sticking up for the residents then but then it becomes such an issue i think that's when mr de farm was telling people to put all notices on their door and stop
01:54:04 and stop people doing any works that i think that was overturned in the end and people could then have it in the kitchen
01:54:12 kitchen right you mentioned mr de foreign can i ask you about specific correspondence uh between you and mr farn uh it's an email that you were sent in the 15th of june 2012. the reference is tmo1003766
01:54:55 so the second email on that page you see uh it's the email from mr defaunt
01:55:06 yeah sent at 9 39 on the 5th of june that starts dear siobhan please would you be kind enough to email me let me know
01:55:13 know just have a rid of that please
01:55:25 so he's asking about a consultation with architects and to influence the designs the next email let's hop the page you say good morning eddie mm-hmm mark you with me yesterday to say he was
01:55:36 mark you with me yesterday to say he was busy but recall last night i'm guessing he was still busy as he didn't call i'm about 10 minutes from the hub so we'll pop into his office and have a word of them if he is in uh do you recall discussing mr defon's request with with mark
01:55:48 mr defon's request with with mark anderson
01:55:50 anderson i probably discussed lots of mr defon's emails with mark anderson um
01:55:59 yeah i mean without being disrespectful mr devon was mr the farm was very challenging sometimes and
01:56:10 very challenging sometimes and even if he got an answer to an email an email would come back with a different question and you could never actually get to answer his question we would always want to i mean nobody wants to deal with
01:56:21 to i mean nobody wants to deal with complaints that go on forever and ever you want to just deal with the complaint leave them satisfied and you're satisfied
01:56:27 satisfied no matter what you said eddie would not accept the answer and the communications were
01:56:35 were they had to come outside of the complaints process in the end because they were copied into hundreds of people all different requests and all mixed up with other
01:56:46 requests and all mixed up with other requests
01:56:46 requests and you could never get to literally what is the complaint there was lots of consultation and i have heard following the inquiry that oh we wasn't consulted and we wasn't
01:56:57 consulted and we wasn't asked i was there and i can say people were consulted people chose either not to come out or listen to mr defan um or berated us in those blogs
01:57:09 um or berated us in those blogs and it was very difficult and very unpleasant at times
01:57:15 you you mentioned that you had many conversations with mark anderson yes i appreciate it it's a difficult question to answer annoy but can you recall your discussion about
01:57:26 but can you recall your discussion about this issue consultation with architects i can't there was too many can we look at uh what you said in relation to evening meetings in your first
01:57:36 first step yeah
01:57:40 tmo quadruple zero zero eight nine one paragraph fifty two and page eleven if we can pull it up please operator
01:57:55 uh you see the final sentence that some of these mediums ride and produce samples of cloudy materials design options for the windows and information on the proposed heating system
01:58:06 on the proposed heating system you see that yes do you recall being present when physical samples of clouding were showing to residents yes i do can you i think it was only one in all fairness it was one
01:58:19 in all fairness it was one because i remember it being a champagne color and then there was an issue with the color with the planners but that's all i recall from that but yes there was samples and the same with windows uh no as you as you this would have been
01:58:32 uh no as you as you this would have been picked up in the transcript but as you answered that question you gave us some shapes with your hands can you give us an idea using perhaps uh something that that would help us get an idea of the
01:58:44 that would help us get an idea of the size of the samples from memory i'm sure it was a like a square about this big it's like a champagne color i appreciate that you said
01:58:55 that you said that it was this big and used your hands could you guess um a tv screen something like maybe i'm just thinking of a tile now 600 meters square tile
01:59:06 of a tile now 600 meters square tile 600 maybe not as big as that about a 600 millimeter yeah tile i think it was probably a bit smaller than that because i remember seeing
01:59:15 seeing the and i thought it was really nice it was like a i think it was a champagne color and then there was an issue with the color with the planners i believe but i wasn't that involved in that part as i attended the meetings
01:59:26 as i attended the meetings to be a familiar face um yeah you said champagne color was it just one yes i think there was yeah and was it can you help us with it
01:59:38 can you help us with it was it just the planning panel was it mounted on anything was it just simply a panel that was about 600 millimeters square
01:59:48 you know i'm not sure i think it was like a pan i don't think it was just a thin
01:59:52 thin piece of material so i think it must have been
01:59:56 have been an actual piece of the cladding mounted on a wall or a pasture no just on on the floor on the floor uh what can you recall what residents were told about the cladding at this meeting
02:00:10 not too bad i mean it was so long ago but i'm just trying to remember when we was there it was like this is the cladding you can come and have a look ask any questions it was that kind of it was just an open meeting
02:00:21 meeting for them to ask any questions i'm not sure if they had something with other colours i know there was an issue they didn't want it to be exactly the same as the school um but that's probably all i can
02:00:33 um but that's probably all i can remember if i'm honest when you say they who do you mean residents residents didn't want to be the same color as the school yeah do you recall any discussion about whether actually the residents had any
02:00:46 whether actually the residents had any input on the decisions whether it might be the planners who in fact would decide i don't know ultimately but i know there was
02:00:54 was lots of opportunity for residents to be involved
02:00:58 involved lots of questionnaires how do you want to be involved um meetings dropping sessions because obviously one size doesn't fit all we would stay and have late evening meetings we would do stuff in the middle of the day
02:01:10 do stuff in the middle of the day um we would do drop-ins in the morning we would do one-to-ones go into people's flats and speaking to them individually because i do remember some residents not wanting to come to the meetings it was just a screaming match
02:01:22 screaming match i mean nobody wanted to be there
02:01:26 can we move forward to early 2014 now you you will recall between claire williams who worked at tmo and was the project manager for the refurbishment yep
02:01:38 refurbishment yep she came to give evans to the inquiry in the author of last year and she told us in her evidence when it came to finding residents to assist in scoring tenders for the project if we just pull up that
02:01:51 for the project if we just pull up that evidence
02:01:54 day 54 class 162
02:02:02 one
02:02:11 see at the top of that page ms rumble the a is her answer she says i think we've been looking for a while but i was still comparatively new so i was find out who people were
02:02:23 new so i was find out who people were so i think i'd looked i think i'd asked hoisin management if they had anybody who they could identify because it would take people's time and i did ask i think i'm aware that i'd asked 12 people for the seven march interviews
02:02:34 interviews and i think those people were referred by housing management to me as being people who possibly may be available
02:02:42 housing management that claire williams refers to there would that have been you you've been asked yeah do you recall being asked by claire williams for a list of residents who could assist with scoring tenders it's very familiar i couldn't say a
02:02:55 it's very familiar i couldn't say a hundred percent but i think it does kind of ring a bell because sometimes they would say can you recommend any residents you know the residents who wanted to get involved and the ones who didn't so we might say oh yes x you know number
02:03:07 so we might say oh yes x you know number this one
02:03:08 this one they'll probably be willing to get involved um so i would say that's probably true so that did you give her a list a physical list or just tell her i couldn't tell you no doubt we might
02:03:21 i couldn't tell you no doubt we might have sat there between us in the office just giving her names and addresses uh and the determination of those names and addresses would be down to you in the office
02:03:31 office yeah who we thought because you'd want to get people involved and quite often um it doesn't matter what organization you work for people don't tend to want to get involved so it's quite difficult sometimes so you
02:03:43 so it's quite difficult sometimes so you were thinking of people who would who would get involved yeah was one of those people in mr farn we know he's been involved up to that point was was he considered i have no idea but i'm sure that
02:03:55 i have no idea but i'm sure that if we'd have asked him because he wanted to be involved he would have probably then said he's not come to the meeting it's kind of how it worked it was it was quite difficult well let me take a step back did you consider
02:04:07 let me take a step back did you consider asking did you discuss mr foreign as a potential person i couldn't tell you 100 whether we did or not
02:04:14 did you consider asking any members of the the leaseholder association at grandfather the gtla
02:04:22 or putting them forward sorry i overspoke
02:04:26 overspoke that's okay i think is it that there's four people that make up the grenfell leaseholders association i believe um and i'm not sure one of those didn't live in the flat
02:04:39 live in the flat whether we asked the others i'm sure we wouldn't have excluded them um but then i suppose you're just trying to just give names of who would get involved and if eddie was one of those who's going to get involved and be constructive 100 we would have wanted
02:04:51 constructive 100 we would have wanted him on board right so you wouldn't have excluded mr deforne or any of the members absolutely not no
02:04:59 going back to your first step in the paragraph 12.
02:05:05 thank you you say
02:05:09 in that first sentence during my time the tmo i would say that for the most part i had a good relationship with the residents of lancaster west uh to accept that that wasn't necessarily the case
02:05:20 necessarily the case for every resident or do you say that you had a good relationship with every resident no you're never going to have a good relationship with every resident um lancaster west was quite a close-knit community
02:05:31 community and so was the staff in the office and we had a good relationship with the majority of the residents i would say i'll probably pick three people in my hand mr defanbe in one of them who it was difficult it was in his
02:05:43 who it was difficult it was in his defense my colleagues said it was actually quite nice prior to the count project starting i didn't have that benefit he was just yeah very rude sometimes
02:05:54 he was just yeah very rude sometimes and it was difficult because we were there to help people and if maybe it had dropped his guard a bit we could have helped him a lot more but he would never let you in they were
02:06:05 but he would never let you in they were blogging about us they were very rude often inaccurate and it was really hard but
02:06:11 but the majority of people on the estate were lovely and that's why we still done our job we were happy working at lancaster west because the majority of people were good nice people
02:06:24 can i ask you about communications with the we tossed them on them a moment ago the grenfell tower leaseholders association you don't mention that the that association or the gtla in your witness statements were
02:06:37 the gtla in your witness statements were you aware of them yes i was aware of them can you help us with why you don't mention them in the witness statement because i think there was a lot of touring and throwing of who could be
02:06:49 touring and throwing of who could be an association and i can't remember exactly now whether they were recognized as an association because there was a residence association but they didn't want to be a part of it and i know there was a lot of work done
02:07:00 and i know there was a lot of work done with janet who was the resident engagement manager um but i know it consisted of i think i think it was four people eddie mr
02:07:11 i think it was four people eddie mr ahmed
02:07:12 ahmed keith mott i believe and um one other tunde who didn't actually live in the tower he um had a tenant in there and yet they were literally the group that
02:07:25 yet they were literally the group that were doing these emails that were
02:07:29 yeah well that's sorry sorry yeah the emails that you just couldn't answer and ever resolve an issue because they were pages long they went to
02:07:41 they were pages long they went to probably everybody in the borough and you'll be being chased for a response but they'd copied in so many hundreds of other people and it's who's responding and that's why often i'd speak to i'd go
02:07:53 and that's why often i'd speak to i'd go to mark or we'd speak to other people and say who's going to respond to this because there were so much different issues in these emails you couldn't just look at it and and answer it
02:08:05 answer it had to go and speak to everybody else can we can we look at one of those letters or emails please look at tm00842290
02:08:22 look at tm00842290 [Music]
02:08:26 thank you now that's that's a letter from tunde aoderi of the gtla address to paul duncan and also to you dated the 12th of july 2012.
02:08:37 dated the 12th of july 2012. and you see the reference on that is appointment of studio e architects for grenfell tower improvement not maintenance i can be just skipped on please operator to the final paragraph in the first page
02:08:54 yeah thank you it says we do not expect you to appoint an architect without consulting us please find the forwarded emails copy to siobhan rumble and han delivered to her dated 7th march 2012.
02:09:06 dated 7th march 2012. in relation to building a better relationship we find it bewildering that you are not aware of these emails as project manager when the area manager of lancaster west state it's von rumble
02:09:18 state it's von rumble is very much aware of what is going on
02:09:24 do you remember this letter not specifically but there were many many communications like this had you been ignoring emails sent to you by the gtla about the project not
02:09:36 by the gtla about the project not deliberately ignoring emails no but some emails would come in and they'd be so loaded um and asking stuff
02:09:42 stuff that i wouldn't be involved in so i would then either speak to janice or speak to mark or um speak to peter madison once mark left and we would try and get a response
02:09:55 and we would try and get a response together because they would come at you in all different angles and some of this stuff was not i mean i didn't appoint architects or do any of that kind of work but that's how they
02:10:06 how they unfortunately i know that sounds a bit rude but that's how they operated they just had us on the run constantly you mentioned some individuals actually mark anderson yes peter madison and janice janice janice
02:10:18 peter madison and janice janice janice ryan
02:10:19 ryan yeah did you raise the concerns with paul duncan who at the time i'm sure i did at the time paul was good i worked we worked well with paul but we'd always try when you get an email to
02:10:30 try when you get an email to try and answer we'd want to answer the question so then you can send it back it's answered and it goes away can we look
02:10:38 look can we look at an email sent by keith mott on the 25th of july 2012. it is at rbk0045656
02:10:49 it is at rbk0045656 and it's on the third page of of the email chain [Music]
02:11:06 so the email from mr mott if we look
02:11:16 the first paragraph i tried to call you but no reply i have hand delivered the letters to you dated 23rd july 2012. first of all it is always very difficult for us the gtla to get the
02:11:28 for us the gtla to get the straightforward simple answer from the kctmo
02:11:34 can you help us now with why the gtla had not received a response from the tmo to their letter that we looked at a moment ago well that stated um he said this 23rd so
02:11:45 well that stated um he said this 23rd so two days before on the monday it may well have been in the system waiting for a response it's only two days
02:11:54 days would you have spoken to mark anderson or paul duncan probably the letter the letter letter to the 12th of june oh 12th of june july i'm i'm not aware of i mean
02:12:05 of i mean we would deal with complaints and inquiries and whatever you want to call them
02:12:10 them um but i think some of these and i've read some of the stuff that's in my statements and it says like where siobhan rumble didn't give us a response and i clearly did give a response but it
02:12:21 and i clearly did give a response but it wasn't what you wanted so they will come back again so some of this stuff is like just repetitive
02:12:29 but we wouldn't deliberately ignore sorry we wouldn't deliberately ignore correspondence not want to respond to correspondence that i know can we look at your response to this
02:12:40 can we look at your response to this email if we just scroll up please
02:12:46 operator
02:12:51 so the the second paragraph in particular beginning i do not think these emails are very helpful and i would suggest we meet as a group in person to discuss any issues you may have
02:13:00 have what was the issue with the emails themselves because they would come from i think it's tandy and then you'd respond to him and then you'd get told why
02:13:11 you'd get told why responding to tandy it should have been to the gla or you respond to gla and it's mr mop wrote you that you should have responded to mr mott it was that kind of you know
02:13:22 it was that kind of you know i was there and i lived it and that's the i mean my response says it all as the letter was signed by yourself i emailed you to acknowledge that i'd received it and as i remember the last time you had delivered a letter
02:13:34 the last time you had delivered a letter to me
02:13:34 to me i was scolded for responding to mr mott the general email and not responding to you directly so it was okay so you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't
02:13:47 i mentioned a few moments ago in your evidence about an issue with the residence association and whether gtla were a residence association do you recall mr foreign he wasn't a member of gtla
02:13:59 foreign he wasn't a member of gtla applying to form a residence association i do but it kind of went back and forth and involved lots of people um i know janet was very good and trying to get things set up
02:14:11 to get things set up um and it involved rbkc but i know it kind of went round in lots of circles whether they could whether they couldn't um then i think they was asked to join the actual residents association and
02:14:22 the actual residents association and they didn't want to um so i think at a time they was being told it wouldn't be recognised and then i think later on down the line it was i can't remember sorry you said later on down the line it was
02:14:33 you said later on down the line it was is that your evidence i think it was i think we agreed to respond to them as a as an organisation i can't remember the detail but there was a lot
02:14:45 the detail but there was a lot around that time in regards to that were you involved in any of the decisions about that or just in the correspondence about it no probably just the correspondence because janet edwards her name was um she was the
02:14:56 edwards her name was um she was the resident engagement manager and very good at trying to get people together and get residence associations up and running so i know she would have done a lot of work but that would i would have left that to janet
02:15:09 that to janet you produces one of your the exhibits to one of your witness statements um a grantful action group block uh that exhibit is a tmo10017466
02:15:22 uh that exhibit is a tmo10017466 please operator
02:15:28 if we could just zoom in at the the top of
02:15:32 of that we see that's titled fire safety scandal at lancaster west and it's dated 28th of january 2013.
02:15:43 and it's dated 28th of january 2013. that's you exhibit that's your statement did you read these blog posts regularly no not really but it'd be someone would say to me oh there's a blog
02:15:54 say to me oh there's a blog and he's mentioned you again so i would then go and look at it and i think this one where it shows there's correspondence where i did act on it
02:16:03 on it and i think the fire brigade did come down and they said there was no um it wasn't a fire hazard where they were parked and i think mr o'connor wasn't happy
02:16:16 and i think mr o'connor wasn't happy and then he wasn't happy he wanted me to invite him to a meeting with the fire guy which i didn't arrange that meeting anyway but it was things like this i mean this parking i mean it wasn't
02:16:27 i mean this parking i mean it wasn't ideal because as you go further up the road there it goes under into the car park and people should not have been parking there there was not a lot we could do because there was no it was private land so it didn't come
02:16:38 no it was private land so it didn't come under the
02:16:38 under the kensington chelsea parking people who removed the cars so what we done we didn't have to but where eddie and they was um francis o'connor was always
02:16:49 they was um francis o'connor was always writing this i thought you know what let's just try and stop people parking there and it wasn't just contractors it was residents as well so we had some stickers made do not park here otherwise your car will be removed
02:17:00 here otherwise your car will be removed and we couldn't really remove it but we thought we'd try and then we stuck all this sticky stuff on the back and literally plastered them over all the windows because i thought that might be a deterrent um some people stopped parking there and
02:17:12 um some people stopped parking there and other people didn't so then obviously these blogs were always around so i then spoke to there was a guy who had a i'm not sure like a mechanic under
02:17:23 had a i'm not sure like a mechanic under the arches and so me and rob went to speak to him and i said how much would it cost to just tow the cars away so he told us so i remember going to the main
02:17:34 so i remember going to the main kensington chelsea building asking if i could have a budget just to kind of make a stand really so we put the stickers on and said if your car's not removed in 24 hours it will be removed so some people i called this guy and he
02:17:47 so some people i called this guy and he hooked up the car and he would take it off the estate and then leave it somewhere and then it would get picked up and ticketed and taken to the pound um and then we had someone complain
02:17:58 um and then we had someone complain and go to the tmo and then i got called in
02:18:02 in by teresa brown and asked what i was doing what i thought i was doing and who gave me the right to do that and i remember saying it's the only way to remove the cars so i was told to stop doing it so we did
02:18:17 can we look at uh an email exchange uh in from fabric 2013 the the reference is tmo10026451
02:18:28 the the reference is tmo10026451 please
02:18:36 now the the exchange includes stephen cunningham of the lfb francis o'connor and councillor blackman i'm going to ask you you're copied into the exchange as well
02:18:48 the exchange as well can i ask you to look at the email from mr o'connor to concert blackman which is on the second or third page thank you
02:19:12 yeah just check for a moment
02:19:17 on the second to third page we could scroll down to the next page uh and at the bottom of that page
02:19:26 the do you see mrs rummel that the sentence begins at the bottom of that page we were intending to simply expose these fillings on our blog rather than waste our time and effort do you see that yes if you just read that
02:19:38 you see that yes if you just read that as we had previously a non-productive email exchanges with miss rumble and miss ray who appear as far as we can judge not even to have read the current assessment he's referring to the fire risk assessment carried out by mr stokes
02:19:51 assessment carried out by mr stokes so is he correct i think you told us earlier you didn't recall them you haven't read them is that correct um no but
02:19:59 no but with regard to these cars we there was lots of correspondence and i know the fire brigade did go and check um
02:20:07 check um and we'd done everything we could but he wasn't happy and i think on the previous bit it says he wasn't even happy with the
02:20:13 the guy from the fire brigades response having received this email which uh makes a
02:20:22 makes a comment or criticism of you for not reading the fire risk assessment did you then go and read the fire risk assessment no
02:20:35 counselor blackman responds to mr o'connor uh she notes in her email which is on the first page if you can scroll back up to it
02:20:48 when i if you yes thank you in the middle paragraph the third sentence from the bottom which is at the end of the line begins what we are no longer prepared to
02:20:59 what we are no longer prepared to address do you see that
02:21:02 yes our complaints are couched in tendentious abusive offensive or bullying terms neither will we tolerate visits to our surgery that are conducted in a similar fashion
02:21:13 fashion i believe that construct coleridge has given out much the same message did you feel that the grenfell action group
02:21:21 group the blog had been abusive or balloon yes
02:21:29 do you recall if you took any action in responding to mr o'connor's complaint following
02:21:33 following the seat of his emails other than that what you've just told us about the blog yes there was one blog and i think from memory
02:21:41 memory it was um there was what rumbles of discontent and ms rumble and her cronies and i just thought
02:21:49 thought i'm not gonna tolerate that from mr o'connor
02:21:53 o'connor so i rang him and said stop writing about me in your blog otherwise i'm going to seek legal advice and get a legal letter sent to him to tell him to stop it because he was rude and it was offensive and it
02:22:06 he was rude and it was offensive and it was often inaccurate um and then there's something in my witness statement that he then comes back
02:22:13 back further to your threatening phone call but underneath i said it wasn't threatening i'm merely just being robust and practical and just saying to him
02:22:24 saying to him stop it because i won't tolerate that
02:22:29 and then i think he kind of he did quite down a bit can we look next at another complaint the references iws
02:22:41 another complaint the references iws quadruple zero one five nine seven and it's an email on the second or third page of that chain
02:23:00 if we could go on to the third page and the second paragraph we could just zoom in on it
02:23:12 just have a look at that please it says the area manager schwann rumble verbally told the secretary of the gtla mr muguel alves on 31st january 2014 that she and the council had got better
02:23:24 that she and the council had got better things to do but read emails from the gtla
02:23:27 gtla and then it proves conclusively high this rumble is to make such a comment on behalf of the councillors of rbkc we strongly believe somebody has to take responsibility for this she has lost our
02:23:40 responsibility for this she has lost our trust and respect as a neighborhood manager of lancaster west she is not suitable and capable to be part of the team to handle 9.7 million grenfell tower regeneration project it's important to restore that trust
02:23:51 it's important to restore that trust immediately as a talent led organization
02:23:56 were you aware of the strength of feeling against you personally it wasn't it was a ha as i say probably about four people and i don't believe this statement to be true because i would never have said i know i
02:24:08 because i would never have said i know i can be outspoken but i would never have been that rude but this is what they would do do letters and refer to you like that and say this is the same way france o'connor said
02:24:17 said siobhan rumble threatened me no if i'm just telling him to stop doing something that is not a threat but it's the same i don't believe i said we got better things to do i don't talk like that
02:24:28 talk like that and i'm more than capable of i was more than capable of doing my job down there and i did and i enjoyed it the time i was there
02:24:37 was there did anyone talk to you about this email within the tmo robert black or any other senior manager i don't think so we was all used to seeing this kind of correspondence
02:24:51 mr chairman i've come to the end of my prepared questions right thank you very much um well mrs rumble as you hear mr guy thinks he's exhausted his questions but we always have a bit of a
02:25:03 questions but we always have a bit of a break at this stage to enable him to take stock and also to enable others who are not here to suggest further questions we might want to put to you so we'll have a break now um i'm going
02:25:14 so we'll have a break now um i'm going to say 20 to 1. please we'll come back at 20 to 1 unless we're told that further time's required
02:25:22 required if we are it might be a little longer sure and then we'll see if there are any more questions for you at that stage thank you all right thank you very much and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room
02:25:33 the room thank you very much
02:25:47 right mr guy well we'll say 20 to 1 if you're told that more time is needed and if a good reason is given for it then of course we'll consider it sympathetically thank you mr chairman
02:55:15 you ask rumble to come back in please
02:55:29 thomas rumble i'm sorry we kept you waiting longer than i indicated whether that means there are a lot of questions or not very many questions i'm not sure we'll find out yes mr guard thank you mr chairman mr
02:55:40 yes mr guard thank you mr chairman mr rudmull
02:55:41 rudmull we were you were giving us evidence this morning about seamus donnelly and the the removal of the
02:55:48 the self-closing device in the door do you recall that yes can i take you to the transcript please it's page 40 line 15.
02:56:04 i asked you a question do you remember a conversation with mr dunley where you discuss removing self-closing device you said yes i actually don't and when i saw this email i thought obviously me and janice must have had a conversation
02:56:15 and janice must have had a conversation and from janice's email please tell him to stop doing it and so obviously i must have had a conversation with him it was told him this is why i actually rang a colleague because i was thinking i didn't remember this because we didn't really touch front doors
02:56:27 front doors my question is who was that colleague that you spoke to my colleague was rob regan
02:56:32 regan and did you speak to rob regan at the time that john sent the email or is this no no no recently this was in because i was coming here i was thinking i needed to know because i didn't realize
02:56:43 to know because i didn't realize about these doors and so i rang and said did you know sheamus took these off some doors and he said yeah i said why did he do it and he said because some of the people some of the elderly people the doors
02:56:54 some of the elderly people the doors were too stiff so i said oh right okay so at least i know now so but that's why i asked because i wanted to know because i didn't know why i'd taken them off
02:57:05 taken them off at the time janice ray sent the email did you speak to any colleague about it beautiful
02:57:13 can i ask you to
02:57:18 it's going to ask you some questions but um
02:57:22 um the evidence you gave this morning about janice jones liaison with rbkc whenever someone would move in
02:57:30 and you also told us about questionnaires that were sent to residents
02:57:35 residents would with the information that was contained in the questionnaires for example on disabilities or vulnerabilities would that be passed to janice jones
02:57:45 or would she would she can would she conduct the questionnaires no sometimes we we might get asked there was a door knocking exercise and we would fill out sheets i can't
02:57:56 and we would fill out sheets i can't remember the detail of all of them but it was obviously to do with the works the regeneration works so we might go round and door knock people but i can't remember what was in the questionnaires but i know there was lots of different occasions we've done
02:58:07 lots of different occasions we've done that
02:58:08 that it wasn't just to collect disability stuff i'm not aware that it was specifically for that but as i say with regards to anything like that janice if if there had been like a drop in
02:58:20 if if there had been like a drop in session
02:58:21 session or one of the ryden rlos had spoken to a tenant and found out that they had some issues or concerns they would come back to janice and us and just say all
02:58:32 and just say all such and such needs some assistance on this that or the other so then janice would go
02:58:37 would go take all the details and should they need assistance or support janice would then liaise with the support workers at rbkc and then try and put in place um some
02:58:49 and then try and put in place um some support and that was the same with um holding holding was a big issue so janice was very involved with helping people and obviously because of the works that was a priority um to get some of those places emptied
02:59:01 um to get some of those places emptied because obviously they couldn't get in to do the works and janice was really good at dealing with the people who were vulnerable like that and just saying you know put a few bits outside and we'll come and collect it um she done that a lot so it's things
02:59:13 um she done that a lot so it's things like that
02:59:16 you you mentioned the the role that janice jones would play in collection and collation of information such as that would david noble have had any role in that but he have liaised for example
02:59:28 that but he have liaised for example with rbkc
02:59:30 with rbkc highs you know social services or occupational therapy as far as you're aware
02:59:34 aware not as far as i'm aware but it was only really in relation to our residents and if they needed to move for whatever reason or we had to engage in with some mental health
02:59:46 health support then janice would be the one leading on that and that would be just us at lancaster west
02:59:53 is it fair to say that there didn't appear to be any comprehensive system for the collection and
03:00:00 and collection of such information vulnerable resident information for grandfather they may well have been in david's role but as i say that would never always come down to our level
03:00:11 come down to our level for whatever they were doing at the tmo and collecting their data for other stuff um i do believe that that's what his role was all around that kind of work
03:00:19 of work if there was such a system you weren't aware of no is that fair no yes
03:00:30 now we if we can go to the transcript again page 79 line 20.
03:00:44 so the question was about leaseholders at um
03:00:48 at um association of grandfather putting themselves forward for the the tender exercise and i think your response
03:00:56 response is
03:01:04 there did you say that there are four people yes and they're responsible there's four people who make up the grandfatherly tools association uh can i ask you then to look at an email which is at tm00842290
03:01:20 email which is at tm00842290 can we go to that please operator that's tmo zero zero eight four two two nine zero and if we can scroll to the bottom of that email
03:01:35 that email you see a list of of names there nine and total
03:01:40 and total suggests wouldn't it that there were at least nine members of the leasehold association yeah maybe there was i think that was 12 leasehold properties i believe but the only people
03:01:52 only people i was aware of in regards to the grenfell leasehold association and all the correspondence was tundy mr defaun mr mott and mr ahmed
03:02:03 tundy mr defaun mr mott and mr ahmed they're the only ones that i recall dealing with can i ask you to look at a couple of petitions that were submitted uh by the grenfell tower league holder association the first one in 2013
03:02:14 association the first one in 2013 and the urn for that mr operator please is
03:02:18 is rbk quadruple zero two two seven zero
03:02:27 if we can go to the last page in this document we see there 94 the 94th answer is mr defarn
03:02:40 94 the 94th answer is mr defarn and now that's a petition submitted by the latest holder association isn't it i guess so do you accept that 94's
03:02:51 do you accept that 94's signatories of that petition is a significant number of the residents of grandfather it is but i don't doubt that
03:03:02 it is but i don't doubt that eddie was out door knocking and saying sign this document because if that was the case that that many people were unhappy we would have known about it this is the this is a petition in
03:03:14 it this is the this is a petition in relation to the power surges that occurred
03:03:16 occurred yeah and the power surges from memory um it was like a handful of people to start with
03:03:23 with i don't know whether other people i don't know how many because janice and i think dion as well at the time literally went out there's a lot of correspondence back and forth um what i've sent that's
03:03:34 back and forth um what i've sent that's in
03:03:35 in the pack um and we went to take a list of all the items but it originally started off just a couple of people because the calls were coming in and we thought that's a bit odd um you know my laptop's blown up or my
03:03:46 um you know my laptop's blown up or my fridge has blown up um and then so we sent people out to go and have a look and first we thought it was just a couple of properties but then i can't remember how many were on the list
03:03:58 on the list certainly wasn't 94. well this document suggests that 94 people signed a petition that was submitted by the gtla
03:04:07 the gtla that would at the very least suggest wouldn't it that 94 people may have been concerned about power surges the gtla were representing the concerns of those 94 people is that fair i guess so
03:04:20 is that fair i guess so but it's here that i'm sorry but it's how that information came about you know yeah can i ask you to look at the
03:04:31 can i ask you to look at the board meeting minutes of the tmo dated 21st november 2013. uh and the reference for that is
03:04:42 tm010028444
03:04:48 and i think it's page seven in that document
03:04:57 and the last under you'll see there that um
03:05:02 um these are minutes of the programme board meeting
03:05:06 meeting under grenfell tower the last sentence of that paragraph is that it had been agreed
03:05:11 agreed thank you to hold no more public meetings because of the stand being made by the grenfell tower lead holder group do you know what was being referred to there by the stand made by the grenfell tower release hula group
03:05:24 i'm not sure but i i i'm guessing it's in relation to we had a couple of evening meetings where eddie and another guy think it was willie had came in and
03:05:38 think it was willie had came in and one of mr defaun's favorite sayings was this is a slime we're living in a slum you're doing nothing and we were there actually holding a consultation meeting telling them how much money we could
03:05:49 telling them how much money we could spend on the tower wanting their involvement but he was just screaming it was a slum i remember peter madison was there and i just said if that's how you behave leave
03:06:00 leave you know because it wasn't constructive and it made other people feel uncomfortable i mean that wasn't well turned out the meetings anyway and i think it's because people knew that it would just turn into a circus and i think after that and i'm not sure
03:06:12 and i think after that and i'm not sure if that was the same meeting because there's some reference to councillor blakeman being at a meeting who witnessed this kind of behaviour and we thought you know we give up our evenings
03:06:22 evenings to come and try and consult and help you we don't come there to be abused and actually get nowhere do you know what i mean there was nothing constructive about it so i think that's why they probably decided let's stop this
03:06:34 decided let's stop this and do it another way and we asked people how would you like to be consulted and i think people preferred us to go to their house but as i say there was there was a room put together in grenfell so that was manned i think all day and
03:06:46 so that was manned i think all day and people could pop in and out and speak to um ryden's they could speak to us all the time because he was always in the office just at the bottom sometimes we spent time um in that
03:06:57 sometimes we spent time um in that room and just being there to answer any questions people had and just yeah support the project really my final question mrs rumble is is there anything
03:07:06 anything anything else you'd like to tell a panel that you think might help them in their investigations and deliberations from the time that you worked tmu
03:07:20 no not really i think obviously from the inquiry i just hope well even without the um the summing up at the end of all of this inquiry we're all going to learn something from it and just hope
03:07:31 learn something from it and just hope that
03:07:32 that you know nothing like this ever happens again
03:07:35 again mr chairman i've come to the end of my questions and those that have been submitted
03:07:40 submitted and there are no more questions for mr rumber good i think thank you very much indeed um well miss rummel it it's a little later than we'd hoped to break for lunch but
03:07:52 than we'd hoped to break for lunch but i think it's very important that we all thank you very much for coming here to give your evidence we we've all found it very useful and interesting to hear what you have to tell us
03:08:00 tell us and so um thank you very much indeed and now
03:08:04 now that is all the questions and you're free to go thank you thank you very much
03:08:23 right mr well we'll break at that point we have another witness do we use this afternoon
03:08:27 afternoon we do there's bartholomew good thank you very much well then i think we'll resume at 10 past two please take her then thank you mr chairman thank you very much
03:08:58 you