Evidence from Nicola Bartholomew, Neighbourhood Team Leader for Lancaster West Estate. Her testimony reveals critical gaps in fire safety awareness, lack of training, and failure to prepare personal emergency evacuation plans for vulnerable residents.
00:00:23 yes mr ghetto we have another witness don't we
00:00:25 don't we thank you mr chairman yes uh can i call nicola bartholomew please thank you
00:00:41 good afternoon mrs bartholomew you're going to take the other side and make the exaggeration thank you yes will you take the book in your right hand and repeat the words on the screen please i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth
00:00:52 evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:00:54 truth thank you very much like to sit down and make yourself comfortable thank you
00:01:03 all right yes do pour yourself some water wait a minute right when you're ready to scan miss
00:01:15 right when you're ready to scan miss bartholomew can i start by thanking you very much
00:01:18 very much for attending at this public inquiry to give your evidence we're very grateful to you if you have any difficulty understanding any of the questions i'm going to ask
00:01:29 any of the questions i'm going to ask please say and i'll ask the question again or put it in a different way if you feel you need a break at any time please let us know we will aim to take a schedule break
00:01:40 we will aim to take a schedule break this afternoon but if you need a break at any other time please signal and will aim to break at that point the other thing i'd ask you to do please is to try to keep your voice up so that the transcriber who sits to
00:01:53 up so that the transcriber who sits to your right can hear you very clearly and to get your evidence down it also helps not to nod or shake your head if it's say yes or no
00:02:05 head if it's say yes or no so that the the words you say can be written down in the transcript
00:02:12 you've made a number of witness statements to the inquiry but for the purpose of today's questions i'm going to focus on three can i please take you to them they are on a folder on their desk and they will hopefully
00:02:24 their desk and they will hopefully appear on your screen as i take you to them
00:02:26 them thank you the first one is david is that tmo
00:02:32 000894 okay that's dated the 7th of february 2019.
00:02:39 2019. could we go to page 8 please
00:02:51 could we go to page 8 please there's a signature on that page yes there is
00:02:55 there is that's your signature that's correct it is
00:02:58 is [Applause] that's your first i'm going to i'm going to refer to that with the statement as your first witness statement can i then ask you to look at tm00842401
00:03:12 can we go to page five
00:03:15 and again a signature is that your signature yes it is did you sign that on the 4th of october 2019
00:03:22 2019 yes i did i'm going to refer to that as your second witness statement okay can we now go to
00:03:31 one zero tm0087102 one
00:03:35 and on page eight we should see a signature is that your signature yes it is
00:03:40 is did you sign that on the fourth of june 2020 yes i did i'm going to refer to that as your third witness statement thank you have you read those witness students recently yes i have
00:03:51 recently yes i have can you confirm that the contents are true yes they are have you discussed those witness statements or your evidence with anybody before coming here today no i have not
00:04:03 i'm going to ask you some questions about your qualifications and experience prior to joining tmo you say paragraph five of your first witness statement
00:04:14 witness statement if we could just pull that up please
00:04:29 if we could just pull that up please the time of the tr the tragedy at greenfield's heart i've been working in housing management in london boroughs for 20 years i have a degree in housing and i'm a member of the chartered institute of housing which is pausing there your degree in
00:04:41 which is pausing there your degree in housing
00:04:41 housing uh when did you obtain that degree i believe it was around 2013 2014. shortly before you yes i had yes sorry i had i had a break so i did
00:04:53 yes sorry i had i had a break so i did some formal qualifications upon leaving school and then i had a break for a number of years and then i went back to study my um my housing degree later on
00:05:04 study my um my housing degree later on in my career as part of your degree course was there any
00:05:09 any was any was health and safety taught or considered as part of that course not that i recall not specifically as a module as part of that course not that i can recall i'm afraid are any general issues of health and
00:05:21 are any general issues of health and safety considered from your recollection not to my recollection no what about fire safety no
00:05:30 you say in the same paragraph that uh you'd worked in london bars for over 20 years
00:05:38 years where were you working immediately prior to joining the tmo in may 2016. team immediately prior to the tmo i was working in uh for a company called red kite and high wycombe
00:05:49 high wycombe and then prior to that i'd worked in the london borough of hillingdon i think twice
00:05:54 twice sloughborough council and i'd worked for some housing associations that had contracts with london boroughs and i'd worked for the london borough of harrow as well previously
00:06:05 harrow as well previously in any of the those previous or with any of those previous employers in any of your previous roles had you
00:06:11 had you uh were you responsible for health and safety or fire safety no did you have any responsibility at all
00:06:19 all or interaction with health and safety teams or with fire safety in new zealand um there would certainly be interaction um
00:06:26 um but directly responsible for the delivery of health and safety um no delivery of fire safety uh fire safety no not directly responsible for fire safety
00:06:37 fire safety did you have any fire safety training in any of those roles not to my recollection not specifically fire safety training would you have had any training in
00:06:48 would you have had any training in assisting vulnerable persons or what might be described as vulnerable persons in the context of a fire or emergency no i don't believe i had had specific
00:06:59 no i don't believe i had had specific training on dealing with vulnerable people in the context of a fire or an evacuation due to a fire i don't think there was anything specific to that at all you're a member of the chartered institute of housing yes i am
00:07:11 institute of housing yes i am any training as part of that membership i don't believe i've undertaken any training um specific higher safety via the chartered institute and what about health and safety via the sim
00:07:22 about health and safety via the sim institute
00:07:23 institute um not that i can recall um i haven't probably done much training via the child institute housing i don't think and specifically
00:07:35 specifically can we look at paragraph six of your first witness statement
00:07:40 you say you applied for the role of neighborhood team leader after seeing a website
00:07:44 website advertisement your predecessor who was not your immediate predecessor but
00:07:51 but one before that siobhan rumble yes correct
00:07:54 correct did you know that she had the title area housing manager for the lancaster west estate
00:08:00 estate um i may have been aware of that there may have been some legacy paperwork and that i may have seen but it wasn't something that was immediately brought to my attention i don't think that the job the job titles were different right it wasn't
00:08:13 titles were different right it wasn't explained to you that this was a new role or a different role to that which had existed before um certainly not at the time um i think as the uh as the interview progressed um and after
00:08:26 progressed um and after getting the job i think um it became obvious then about the direction in which the organization wanted to travel in terms of um aligning my job role
00:08:37 in terms of um aligning my job role title with that of the other team leaders that worked within the tmo
00:08:43 right so sorry just to be clear about that um i think there was a there was already a team leader for the north and a team leader for the south um so i would effectively become another
00:08:54 um so i would effectively become another team leader alongside those two existing roles right and that was the team leader for
00:08:59 for which area for the area that i was covering
00:09:02 covering that would come on to becoming team leader for the west so i would be neighbor to neighborhood team leader for the west post the restructure
00:09:13 did you report to kieran singh i did and he in turn reported to teresa bryan is that correct that's correct they weren't based at lancaster west estate is that correct that's correct
00:09:24 estate is that correct that's correct yeah were you does it follow then that you are the most senior person employed by the tml base at lancaster west estate on a day-to-day basis probably that's
00:09:36 on a day-to-day basis probably that's probably correct
00:09:39 [Music] on a day-to-day basis can we look at what your role involved yes siobhan rumble was responsible for the income team for the
00:09:51 responsible for the income team for the heard of the tmo was that something that you're also responsible for no there was a separate team leader to deal with income recovery um
00:09:58 um at the point that um i think six weeks after i joined the restructure took place and the income element for lancaster west was taken and absorbed into the main income management team you say six weeks
00:10:11 income management team you say six weeks after you joined there was a restructure approximately six weeks yeah there was a restructure pretty soon after i joined which i think took effect in august 2016 so i joined on may the 3rd 2016 and then
00:10:24 so i joined on may the 3rd 2016 and then the restructure took place um so allowing for consultation with staff i think it went live in early august 2016. did that restructure include removing
00:10:36 did that restructure include removing your responsibility for the state services assistance that's correct yeah so
00:10:41 yeah so does it follow then from may to august you
00:10:44 you were responsible for managing the they were caretakers at the time i think they were called but yes they were estate service supervisors so that would have been robert regan and paul stedman um and the handyman
00:10:58 and paul stedman um and the handyman seamus dunley can we look at your second witness tip and paragraph two the reference is tmo thank you
00:11:09 the reference is tmo thank you you said out there a list of your responsibilities can we just clarify um some of these responsibilities
00:11:17 that list itself was out of 10 from a job description or can you recall the source from which you
00:11:23 you it may have been it may have been i did i i recall um when uh compiling the statement to say to refer to the job description so it may have been
00:11:34 it may have been at a you refer to managing the neighborhood management provision could you give us a little more detail what exactly you meant by that yeah so neighbourhood management um would include things like
00:11:45 would include things like um so tenancy management so dealing with successions mutual exchanges um overseeing all of that kind of landlord and tenant work um also
00:11:56 kind of landlord and tenant work um also looking after antisocial behavior and the management of anti-social behavior complaints um a level of resident engagement um yeah and managing the
00:12:09 um yeah and managing the the on-site office there um so yeah landlord and tenant stuff mainly at b you refer to delivering housing management services is that different than to a or does it
00:12:21 is that different than to a or does it cover this no the could look at a please to take the lead and identify new initiatives and policies that improve service delivery for local residents
00:12:33 can you help us with with that could you give us an example of of an initiative or policy um i'm trying to think of if there was one that i developed while i was there um
00:12:44 i was there um but really part of the role would be to look to continuously improve the service that you were delivering so if something happened during the course of your your management there where
00:12:55 your your management there where you felt that something um could be developed or something new needed to be um initiated or if there was an area of policy that didn't appear to be to work or that needed to be changed
00:13:06 to work or that needed to be changed because something um in the locality had changed then certainly that would be feeding that back up and and trying to develop new processes so that's really that's the kind of
00:13:18 so that's really that's the kind of stretch part of the role i would say in that it didn't happen all that often and doesn't in my experience in housing management but it's there if an opportunity presents itself
00:13:29 presents itself at f you say if we could scroll down to f please
00:13:35 f please you say to develop a local knowledge of the communities and neighborhoods in which the tmo operates practically speaking what does that mean does that involve well i can only i can only say um kind
00:13:47 well i can only i can only say um kind of how i
00:13:47 of how i i approached that which was to try and get an understanding of the community that i was i was working with and understand some of the the complexities around that
00:13:59 complexities around that and to engage with residents and customers as much as possible um unfortunately i was only uh with the tmo just under a year before the
00:14:10 the the fire occurred so that would very much be
00:14:13 much be something that you would gain throughout the the span of your of your tenure there
00:14:18 there um and unfortunately i didn't have a huge amount of time to be able to get as much of that knowledge as i would have liked
00:14:24 liked at i if you could look at i you talk about liaison with other external agencies yeah would that have included the fabric at the lfb uh it it's potentially yes
00:14:37 uh it it's potentially yes although um liaison with the fire brigade
00:14:40 brigade would generally have been dealt with by janice ray i think that would probably come more into play when um liaising and speaking to our local police teams um that's usually what that's how i
00:14:52 um that's usually what that's how i would
00:14:54 would remember that particular area and with the aim of of addressing what anti-social behaviour generally and just having an understanding about the issues that were occurring
00:15:05 that were occurring on the wider estates remembering that at this stage i wasn't just responsible for lancaster west estate i obviously had estates on silchista and henry dickens so my remit was was broader than just
00:15:17 so my remit was was broader than just lancaster west in terms of fire safety risks and given that you're the most senior person on the estate on lancaster west would you have
00:15:31 estate on lancaster west would you have been responsible for if you became aware of any specific fire safety risks would you become responsible for escalating those to others in the tmo not primarily um all the other members
00:15:44 not primarily um all the other members of staff
00:15:45 of staff it doesn't necessarily follow that because i was on site that i would be the person responsible so other members of the staff that were there that had their own line managers they would have routes
00:15:56 own line managers they would have routes to escalate any queries and concerns and would be managing those staff accordingly so because i was the most senior on site doesn't necessarily mean i'm the
00:16:04 i'm the i am the overall responsible person you mentioned a moment ago that your role covered still chester and henry dickens estates correct when when did your role expand to cover those estates
00:16:15 to cover those estates during the um the august time early august time this is august 16 yes for restructure yes that's correct so and that also included management for the uh travellers site and for the temporary
00:16:26 travellers site and for the temporary accommodation hostel remit as well so it was it was wider than just lancaster west did you consider that you were stretched thinly across the areas you had to cover i think
00:16:38 the areas you had to cover i think having i didn't consider that at the time because obviously i was fairly new into the role so it's very difficult to gauge how much work that would
00:16:47 would have encompassed at that point um so at the time of the restrict restructure i didn't foresee that being a difficulty
00:16:56 with the benefit of hindsight um i think if you speak to any housing manager they're always going to say that they feel
00:17:03 they feel that they could have you know had extra resource
00:17:06 resource um that's that's true of any role that i've been in um i have to say that at the time i felt that we were adequately resourced from a housing management perspective
00:17:23 we asked i asked you a little earlier about
00:17:27 about training prior to joining the tmo now when you're with tmo did you receive any training
00:17:33 training on fire safety
00:17:37 i don't recall that i did i don't recall that
00:17:41 that i don't think i did
00:17:44 in your first witness statement we can go back to that paragraph 20.
00:17:56 just look please at the first sentence there you say well i had some awareness of the fire safety measures in grenfell tower
00:18:02 tower i have no knowledge of whether they were compliant with relevant building regulations yeah what fire safety measures were you aware of at grandfather i was aware that there was a
00:18:14 aware that there was a smoke vent system um i hadn't been involved uh necessarily on the training for that although the esa's
00:18:23 esa's were as far as i'm aware um so i was aware that there was a that that system in place um not i can't remember if i was aware of anything else
00:18:35 anything else did you ever consider during the time that you worked there whether you should have been aware of the fire safety measures in place i felt at the time that the staff that
00:18:46 i felt at the time that the staff that were there that were responsible for managing
00:18:49 managing that had had worked there for a considerable period of time there was no reason for me to um feel that what they needed to do wouldn't be done
00:19:01 wouldn't be done so at the time given that that was being managed by another team leader colleague i have to make the assumption that that was that was working
00:19:10 working um and and that everybody was doing what they needed to do it wasn't my area of responsibility at that time we touched upon their state services assistance before i think you called them caretakers until
00:19:21 i think you called them caretakers until the restructure is that correct so again you first witnessed it in paragraph 10 please
00:19:35 you say i recall for the first few weeks i worked at tmo the two estate services assistants reported to me however following a restructuring paul and robert began reporting instead to the state services team leader louise nasim donny
00:19:50 so post restructure did you cease to have any supervised responsibility for the estate services assistance uh effectively yes
00:20:01 effectively yes although um i would try and keep abreast of what was going on but effectively the line management responsibility was with louise post restructure
00:20:12 was with louise post restructure was she based on lancaster west estate no she wasn't she was based at the hub but she would visit the office regularly we had a hot desking arrangement there so she was able to come down and
00:20:23 so she was able to come down and speak with her team if she needed to can you help us with high regularly she would have done that off the top of my head
00:20:34 off the top of my head i wouldn't like to put i wouldn't like to put a timing on that all i can say was regularly right were you more senior than the esa's
00:20:45 were you more senior than the esa's i was more senior than the usas but i was on a peer group with louise right so we were the same same grade myself and louise in the office in lancaster west yep would they have come to you
00:20:56 would they have come to you as a more senior person to your mobile with any issues or queries that they were experiencing in their day-to-day work possibly possibly that that is definitely possible yeah
00:21:07 no in your third witness statement paragraph 36 if you could just go to that please tm00871021 on page 7.
00:21:21 [Music] what you do there is is quote from mr stedman's witness statement where he says i had regular contact with the residents in my role
00:21:32 residents in my role and would often make inquiries about their general satisfaction with the estate and well-being i was able to feed this information back to my supervisor nicholas bartholomew during her one-to-one meetings
00:21:42 he then in a subsequent statement dated the 12th of may 2020. if we go to that please it's tmo zero zero eight seven zero nine four four it's the third page
00:21:59 four it's the third page and paragraph 14 if we could zoom in or not please
00:22:18 the uh penultimate sentence there is usually my wonder ones would be very every month my supervisor and i would discuss anything and everything that had happened during that month or was to happen for example anti-social
00:22:29 or was to happen for example anti-social behavior i do not know if what i said was recorded and if we could turn over the page to paragraph 16 please
00:22:45 and there he says keith was my direct line manager after his departure i reported directly to management namely tony
00:22:50 tony siobhan and then nicola
00:22:57 [Music]
00:23:02 mr stedman's recollection then is that he reported to you and had one-to-ones with you
00:23:07 with you did he ever have one-to-ones with you um he may have had uh one-to-ones with me in the in the formal one-to-ones with me in the original six weeks or so that i was
00:23:18 original six weeks or so that i was managing him after that his formal one-to-ones would have taken place with his line manager which was louise i may have arranged to have catch-up sessions with him ad hoc
00:23:29 sessions with him ad hoc to supplement that during the during the time just because i would be wanting to keep abreast of anything
00:23:37 anything um on the estate um but certainly the the pick up the formal one-to-one sessions
00:23:43 sessions um would have been with louise the catch-up ad hoc sessions yeah um for you to pick up things that were going on in the estate what kind of things would you have wanted to know about yeah so
00:23:54 wanted to know about yeah so obviously i would be the one attending most of the um lancaster west residents association meetings so really it would be around whether we'd had fly tipping issues whether um you know we'd had whether
00:24:07 whether um you know we'd had whether there were concerns about anybody sleeping rough anywhere so we had garage blocks um underneath um the the finger blocks and occasionally we had rough sleepers in there
00:24:18 there yeah it could be about anything really any concerns on the on the general estate
00:24:23 estate um so yeah that type of thing any fire safety concerns um not that i not that i could recall it's possible but i can't recall
00:24:34 it's possible but i can't recall anything specific um but in any event that would needed to have been picked up with louise as i would expect through his formal one-to-one process with her i wouldn't have expected fire safety concerns to be raised in an ad
00:24:46 safety concerns to be raised in an ad hoc
00:24:47 hoc uh catch-up session with me i wouldn't be the appropriate person
00:24:53 given your that you can't recall yeah if he had raised such a concern what would you have done with it um
00:25:04 what would you have done with it um what i would have done with it was would have raised it um with the necessary people so it either have gone i'd have either spoken to his line manager about it or i've spoken to janice about it um that's what i would that's what i
00:25:17 um that's what i would that's what i would have done did paul steadman or rob regan robert reagan forgive me ever raise concern with regard to the amount of work that they had to do in the time
00:25:27 the time with which they had to do it
00:25:33 i'm trying to think back on that one um there's nothing specific that rings about
00:25:40 about i mean i think other than the the kind of
00:25:45 of normal situation that you have i say normal situation but in my experience of social housing um there are times where everybody feels really pushed and stretched but nothing more significant than that
00:25:58 but nothing more significant than that in terms of the normal run of day-to-day things i certainly didn't get the impression um that they were under significant pressure that would warrant me having to speak to louise and raise concerns about the
00:26:10 raise concerns about the the their workload we were you aware if they had certain time limits for carolina pieces of work no i wasn't aware of time limits on pieces of work
00:26:24 pieces of work could we look at a document please the reference is tmo one zero zero four seven one four seven and it's at page seven
00:26:40 can you look at the the paragraph towards the end of that box in the right hand box or column which says currently paul do you see that yeah currently paul does
00:26:51 do you see that yeah currently paul does not do estate inspections like the other esa's but from the end of november he will be accompanying nicki and i on the walkabout with the ra this is so that paul can explain what jobs he has raised to raise any jobs
00:27:02 jobs he has raised to raise any jobs that the ra bring to his attention the walkway will be happening every three weeks on a thursday but r.a can you help us with that residents association and there's the nikki he refers to that would be me that's you
00:27:13 would be me that's you yeah do you know what was meant by the comment
00:27:18 comment he does not do a stated inspections like the other esa's um i think that's a legacy issue so in my predecessor's time in siobhan's
00:27:30 so in my predecessor's time in siobhan's time
00:27:32 time the service was run slightly differently and not
00:27:36 and not in the same way that the esa's would manage um on the other estates so part of the thought process my understanding was that they would
00:27:47 understanding was that they would join the wider pool of estate service assistance so that those processes could be standardized um because um yeah that's why that's what my my
00:28:00 yeah that's why that's what my my understanding of that meant did you start accompanying him on walkabouts with the residents association um i started the walkabouts initially fortnightly and then i had a member of
00:28:13 fortnightly and then i had a member of the
00:28:14 the a new housing officer joined millicent williams who joined um i believe middle of august to the end of august and then that's something that i eventually handed over to millicent to manage and my understanding
00:28:25 millicent to manage and my understanding is that um she and paul would carry those out with the residents association so it went from
00:28:31 from uh two weeks to then eventually three weekly
00:28:34 weekly can you remember when the change came between two weeks and three weekly um it went to three weekly at the residence association's request because i think they were having um i think they were having difficulties in
00:28:45 i think they were having difficulties in having enough um residents um wanting to meet um and so because they would organize a bit of a rota for people to attend um and to carry those inspections out so
00:28:56 um and to carry those inspections out so i think it went at their request to three weekly but i can't remember when it will be in residence association minutes maybe somewhere can i ask you some questions about inspection checklist tonight
00:29:07 inspection checklist tonight yeah so paragraph 27 of your first witness tip and please tm050894
00:29:23 we refer there to excel spreadsheets
00:29:28 which contain results of weekly and monthly health and safety checks can we look at your exhibit reference mb2 as an example so that's two one tmo10016213
00:29:56 [Music]
00:30:17 you recognize that um yes
00:30:23 yes [Music]
00:30:28 would these have been generated from the information that was inputted on the the pdas the
00:30:37 pdas the the devices used by esas i assume so um i wasn't managing them at that point so i wouldn't have been getting this information on a
00:30:48 getting this information on a if at all on a regular basis so um i would assume that would be the outcome from the from the pda devices could we just click on sheet two please operator
00:31:00 operator you see the information contained within the
00:31:05 the second sheet in the spreadsheet yes so these are the list of questions across the top row do you see that yes i do no this spreadsheet would you
00:31:16 yes i do no this spreadsheet would you ever
00:31:16 ever would you have ever seen this spreadsheet or something like it before i can't recall seeing this spreadsheet before
00:31:25 before if i did i may have seen it um very early on in terms of when i was looking after or managing the esa's but subsequent to that i'm not sure that i would have seen this
00:31:36 would have seen this regularly if at all would it sorry
00:31:41 would it have been sent to you in any way
00:31:46 way it's possible um
00:31:50 but given that louise was the line manager there was a team leader for that um i don't sh that the person in that role would have been looking at that information rather than
00:32:01 looking at that information rather than myself it may have been sent to me as a courtesy
00:32:05 courtesy um but i don't recall seeing it or or having seen it you know giving it my full attention so if there was an issue for example with one of the inspections that this
00:32:17 with one of the inspections that this this uh checklist highlighted that wouldn't have necessarily been obvious to you or something that you would have dealt with not necessarily no because as i said there would be there's a team leader for that area of work and
00:32:29 a team leader for that area of work and they would be responsible for picking that up
00:32:34 during the time period that you did supervise the estate services assistance caretakers or handymen did you become aware did you ever hear of any issue with
00:32:45 with uh self closing devices on doors and specifically with those being removed
00:32:52 removed no were any significant issues with those door closers not that i can recall no
00:33:00 and i want to move to ask you some questions about interactions you had with janice ray yeah are you familiar with janice yes i am yeah
00:33:09 am yeah you didn't have regular meetings with her is that right no did you have any meetings with her at all
00:33:17 um i don't think there was anything in the calendar specifically on a kind of on a moving forward basis we would we would catch up if there was something you know if we happened to be
00:33:28 something you know if we happened to be in the same place and we needed to have a catch-up but i don't think there was anything diarised formally so again would have been on
00:33:34 been on an ad hoc basis that you would have been yes that's right whenever an issue arose it
00:33:38 it yes that's right did you ever attend the health and safety committee meetings in the tmo
00:33:44 the tmo not that i can recall no would you have received the minutes from those meetings
00:33:50 i don't believe that i would have done i wasn't a participant so therefore i don't believe that i would have been sent the minutes but i don't recall seeing any minutes can you help us with how you were kept
00:34:02 can you help us with how you were kept abreast of any health and safety issues that had arisen either on the lancaster western state or across tmo stock how would you have been kept abreast of those issues um well we did have um
00:34:16 issues um well we did have um managers meetings um so i if anything um was raised then it would have been raised as an issue at those management meetings so present at those would have been myself the the team leader responsible
00:34:29 myself the the team leader responsible for the esa's the other two neighborhood team leaders um
00:34:34 um uh a variety of of my peers would have been at that meeting um the two heads of service um and they were usually chaired by um teresa brown chaired by church born who was the two
00:34:45 chaired by church born who was the two the two heads of service that would be um kieran singh who was my line manager and then um uh the housing head of housing i think was maria i'm
00:34:56 head of housing i think was maria i'm afraid i can't remember her surname for and she managed the south area so if they were if there were health and safety issues or fire safety issues they would have been articulated and passed to through the managers meetings
00:35:08 managers meetings uh i would i would have assumed so yes any other
00:35:11 any other ways in which they were passed to you um it's possible that um things could have come directly so if you know if it wasn't if the if the meeting wasn't due to take place it we
00:35:23 meeting wasn't due to take place it we could have been emailed about them separately yeah can i ask you about fire risk assessments yes you first put the step into paragraph 23 that's tm050894
00:35:39 paragraph 23 i was not involved in the procurement of these fire risk assessments nor was i involved in reviewing findings i do recall a list of actions that arise from these assessments however it was not my responsibility to
00:35:50 however it was not my responsibility to ensure that the actions were completed this was managed by louise nesendonie who would liaise direct with janus ray directly
00:35:59 directly were you ever provided with the fire risk assessments or the action plans that were produced by mr stokes yourself
00:36:08 i can't recall if i was in receipt of the action plans from mr stokes i do recall um receiving a risk assessment form um
00:36:19 risk assessment form um with some actions on but i don't know if that was in relation to any work of coal stokes
00:36:25 stokes who provided that and that came to uh i think that's that came to me via janice ray did you ever ask to see the first assessments for any of the properties you were
00:36:36 properties you were responsible for no i don't recall that i did
00:36:41 did does it follow you would never have read any of them it does follow that i wouldn't have read them were you made aware at any stage of the risks that have been highlighted in them
00:36:52 that have been highlighted in them were any steps a lot to be taken with respect to them
00:36:59 i think i think there were probably elements that i would have been aware of and certainly on the issues that janice would have raised directly but the wider scope of the risk assessments maybe not
00:37:10 assessments maybe not um it's very difficult for me to recall well those elements yeah that may have been raised with you directly can you help us with what they were um yeah i think there may have been
00:37:22 were um yeah i think there may have been things
00:37:23 things in in evidence already of a risk assessment that had my name attributed to them for fire safety actions or risk assessment actions what kind of actions were they from
00:37:35 what kind of actions were they from reflection um from my recollection i think
00:37:37 think um there were things to do with uh there was a something to do with a stairwell maybe um maybe a uh a door
00:37:48 um maybe a uh a door at one of the fire doors things like that and that had that had my name against them but again that was a legacy issue in terms of um the role had already passed over to
00:38:00 um the role had already passed over to um louise so with hindsight what i should have done was just get the name switched um to reflect that louise was responsible for those but um
00:38:11 responsible for those but um we were a small team and i was just trying to be helpful i think in um making sure that you know um a name was against it at the time but it was on the transfer period so yeah
00:38:24 transfer period so yeah given that you're the most senior person from tmo on the ground as it were in lancaster west should you have known about
00:38:33 about the outcomes of the fire risk assessments or the risks that had been flagged up to the tmo for those properties um well again i'd go back to my point and say that
00:38:44 and say that i might have been the most senior person geographically there however everybody else also had someone of a similar peer of a similar position to myself that they were reported to
00:38:56 reported to the fact that i was physically located there didn't necessarily mean that i should have any more knowledge of lancaster west than i did of silchester or henry dickens
00:39:09 you mentioned about the actions that arise from a fire risk assessment and i think what you said is that you weren't responsible for
00:39:17 for closing them down or for making sure they were completed that fell following the restructures louisiana isn't on you yes um why were you still aware of them
00:39:28 yes um why were you still aware of them if the responsibility had passed to louisiana hasn't on you because um generally speaking i was copied into a lot of information on lancaster west generally and sent a lot of information
00:39:39 lot of information didn't necessarily follow that i was the person responsible for um completing everything or dealing with everything but because i i worked on site down there
00:39:51 i i worked on site down there a lot of information was was forwarded to me and i was copied into a lot and i think culturally as well um i think people perceived that i was
00:40:02 i think people perceived that i was siobhan's replacement and certainly in during siobhan rumble's tenure she was responsible for more of the lancaster west um uh responsibilities than
00:40:13 um uh responsibilities than than had happened with my post given that the restructured meant that a lot of the things that siobhan was responsible for i was no longer responsible for so there was a bit of crossover there
00:40:25 was a bit of crossover there did you ever speak to ms nizam donnie to make sure that the actions that have been raised in the fire risk assessment had been
00:40:31 had been carried out
00:40:37 i can't recall specifically whether that happened
00:40:41 happened um i'm afraid yeah i'm afraid i can't recall that um with hindsight i would have done that differently um and i would have made sure that there had been a more thorough handover for
00:40:52 had been a more thorough handover for sure
00:40:53 sure um but uh yeah i can't recall at the moment having a specific conversation with her about that what about with the esa's with paul stedman and rob regan would you have ever had a conversation with
00:41:04 you have ever had a conversation with them about making sure that actions had been carried out i'm sure that i would have done i can't recall specifically the times and occasions when i did but i'm sure i would have done
00:41:15 i'm sure i would have done paul more than rob because rob had assumed a slightly different role at that stage he was covering um different estates um whereas paul was more of a fixture on lancaster
00:41:28 paul was more of a fixture on lancaster west
00:41:28 west so it would have been with paul and i'm sure i probably did have a conversation but i just cannot recall when that took place or what the content of that conversation would have been
00:41:40 just going back a moment to the time you were supervising the esa's and the time you weren't did you ever have any concerns about whether they are carrying out their inspections or their rules generally
00:41:51 inspections or their rules generally properly
00:41:54 no no concerns um i think had i had i had concerns i would have raised them with louise directly louise did come down and visit her team martin
00:42:07 did come down and visit her team martin barr did come down and visit paul before he left the organisation as well so i was
00:42:13 so i was i had some confidence that that was taking place um so yeah i i don't recall any concerns with
00:42:21 with you know their their workmanship put it that way
00:42:24 that way i'd like to ask you guys some questions about vulnerable residents on lancaster west state and grandfather in particular during your time as neighborhood team leader did you have access to a
00:42:35 leader did you have access to a comprehensive list of vulnerable residents in lancaster west estate if i i don't recall having ever seen a
00:42:48 if i i don't recall having ever seen a list of vulnerable people um i expect it would it would have existed
00:42:53 existed most organizations do and there would have been a database or vulnerabilities flagged on a system electronically but i don't recall
00:43:04 viewing one specifically so that that would apply to a list or would it also apply to the electronic system you don't recall ever viewing it well i
00:43:15 ever viewing it well i i think in terms of the the electronic system we had a crm system so we would tend to go into cases one by one rather than view everything in one go i certainly did
00:43:27 in one go i certainly did and so you know it may have been possible to identify someone's vulnerability going into a single case basis i can't recall whether
00:43:36 whether i was able to see a full list of vulnerabilities i don't recall seeing one in my
00:43:40 one in my in my time there you mentioned crm i think what about capita be aware of the capitalist system and whether it recorded information about
00:43:52 whether it recorded information about vulnerabilities um capita i didn't use i used crm but i think capital may have been the database system that sat
00:44:03 been the database system that sat beneath crm so crm took the data out of capital and then displayed it i don't but i didn't use capital myself
00:44:12 did you ever would you have ever input or updated records to show if a resident had a particular vulnerability or disability i don't believe i would have done um i
00:44:24 i don't believe i would have done um i don't think anybody showed me how to do that
00:44:27 that um i wouldn't necessarily in the course of my role do that housing officers would normally do that that piece of work if i needed it to have been done um i would have asked one of the housing officers to to update the system for me
00:44:39 officers to to update the system for me it's not something that i would have done on a normal course of events i don't think can you assist us with which highs and officers you would have asked and so i had i had three in my team so i had millicent williams
00:44:50 had millicent williams janice jones and susan naninwadu and so they were my they were my three housing officers um that were based in the latimer office millicent covered lancaster west specifically
00:45:01 specifically and she took over from janice jones who after the restructure and siobhan's departure
00:45:07 departure wanted a change of scene so she moved on to the silchester estate and susan anandwadu looked after the henry dickens estate
00:45:18 henry dickens estate to your knowledge was there any system in place for the tmo to know which residents would have difficulty vacuuming in the event of a fire
00:45:26 fire um no system that i'm aware of that i can recall can we look at uh what von number said about
00:45:37 about this issue of a list uh her first witness tip in the paragraph 37 please the references tmo 50891
00:45:49 it's paragraph 37 on the seventh page of that state
00:46:03 second sentence of that please mrs bartholomew you see it says i'm also aware that there was a spreadsheet recording information about vulnerable residents [Music]
00:46:13 [Music] yes and if we can then turn to your third witness statement paragraph 29 tm00871021 sixth page of that statement
00:46:24 sixth page of that statement [Music]
00:46:26 [Music] thank you so you're referred to what ms rumble said there and you say you don't recall being told by any such list
00:46:36 list you don't recall any such list at uh held tmo
00:46:41 held tmo would you have been told about any anything any list or anything of that nature
00:46:46 nature when you did your handover when you when you arrived to team up um well that's that's the difficulty uh my understanding is that my predecessor left in february and i joined in may
00:46:57 i joined in may so there was that gap there it was filled with an interim person who daniel fielder so effectively my handover was would
00:47:08 so effectively my handover was would have been
00:47:08 have been via daniel as opposed to what siobhan would have given i don't recall seeing a list there were some handover
00:47:19 seeing a list there were some handover notes left but i don't recall there being a list of vulnerable people contained within that paper copy in any event i wouldn't expect
00:47:31 in any event i wouldn't expect to have a paper copy of vulnerable tenants i would expect there to be an electronic list on a database to be properly updated i wouldn't expect to have anything in paper in terms of the updating of that
00:47:42 in terms of the updating of that information electronically yeah you mentioned your housing officers would do that is that correct uh yes i believe so was it was it just them who would do that or was anyone else involved in that
00:47:53 or was anyone else involved in that process
00:47:56 [Music]
00:48:01 i actually don't know i don't know if they would be the only people to have access to that um certainly i didn't because i actually can't recall whether i was able to do it or not
00:48:14 whether i was able to do it or not so i don't know if they were the only people that were able to update that system
00:48:20 system david noble would he have david david would have been an example of someone that
00:48:24 that um would have looked after that system so i would assume that he'd be able to go in and look at that data i would assume um siobhan bowman may have had
00:48:34 have had um access to that system as well
00:48:40 can i ask you about tenancy ordered questionnaires yes please your third witness statement you discuss tendency or paragraph four
00:48:51 you discuss tendency or paragraph four if you go to that please it's tmo0087 [Music]
00:49:00 1021 [Music]
00:49:13 [Music] paragraph four we see that the tenancy audit program was ongoing
00:49:19 was the purpose of these audits uh to make sure that the information held by tmo and residents on crm that it was up to debt i would say so yeah
00:49:32 can we look at an example of a tenancy audit questionnaire please uh it's at iws401778
00:49:45 uh it's at iws401778 go to the second page of that document
00:49:55 [Music] please
00:50:01 do you recognize that um i recognize it as a tmo document i didn't
00:50:08 didn't i don't recall carrying out any questionnaires myself so it's not paperwork that i would have used on a day-to-day basis but i recognize it as a tmo document do you recognize it what type of
00:50:20 do you recognize it what type of term or document do you recognize yeah i recognize that that would that was part of the um the uh the tenancy audit paperwork
00:50:36 could we go to page nine of this document please
00:50:46 [Music] could we try the next page please page 10.
00:50:53 10. yeah do you see in that box there
00:51:00 14 about your needs and 15 is disability yes i see that thank you do you recall seeing that aspect of the form before
00:51:11 as i said i did not fill out these forms myself my housing officers would have been doing that so i don't i'm not familiar with these forms on a day-to-day basis i would recognize that as something that would
00:51:21 would be in the form um but i i didn't didn't do the audits myself so i can't say that
00:51:30 do you know the purpose for which timo were collecting this information 10 and box 15.
00:51:40 [Music] i don't know specifically the purpose but i would assume my working assumption would be that it was to be it was to be more informed about the nature of people's needs within the properties
00:51:52 people's needs within the properties and to update the vulnerability accordingly would that include needs in the event of an emergency in terms of evacuation
00:52:07 it may eventually point to that i could see how that could occur um it doesn't specifically say that though in that form it doesn't specifically outline
00:52:18 it doesn't specifically outline whether somebody had a specific need in terms of an evacuation and i think that would be a different question
00:52:26 these questionnaires the information that's contained or that's gleaned from them who would have inputted that onto
00:52:33 onto tml systems my understanding would be with the housing officers so they would go out and collect that information and then
00:52:40 then input it and then it would be scanned onto the w-2 system i think but given um i didn't do them myself unfortunately so i can't vouch for the
00:52:51 unfortunately so i can't vouch for the the accuracy of that but that's that's my working assumption
00:52:56 you say you said in your statement think your third witness tip in paragraph 27 if we could just go to that please tm00871021
00:53:07 please tm00871021 page five
00:53:19 you you mentioned about crm system and information contained on it and you say here there's a nurture comment section to record information was that something that you could input information into or it's just something
00:53:31 information into or it's just something that flashed up whenever you were on the particular record
00:53:38 it's so difficult to remember i actually can't answer that question um i don't know i cannot recollect that would were you aware of or would you
00:53:50 would were you aware of or would you have known how to obtain information on people who had vulnerabilities or disabilities say within grenfell tower would you have known how to do that i think what i'd have done is i'd have
00:54:02 i think what i'd have done is i'd have asked somebody like david noble to produce that list for me that's what i would have done if i'd asked for that information and
00:54:14 did you have any way of knowing whether the information produced by david noble was up to date or accurate no
00:54:25 was up to date or accurate no whenever you accessed crm or whenever you considered those with mobility issues or disabilities or vulnerabilities in grenfell tower did you ever consider
00:54:37 in grenfell tower did you ever consider what they would do if they needed to evacuate in the event of afar
00:54:43 i did but the advice was that it was a stay put policy um and we were working on the assumption that any fire would have been
00:54:54 that any fire would have been compartmentalized and therefore fully evacuation of the building may not be necessary also there were two lifts that were all floor lifts so in other tower blocks that were on on
00:55:07 so in other tower blocks that were on on the surrounding estates there were alternate floor lifts um but grenfell had two lifts that serviced all floors um so whilst it was a stay put policy i wouldn't have expected to have
00:55:18 wouldn't have expected to have dealt with an evacuation on the left point
00:55:22 point yes were you told that the lift was to be used in the event of an emergency or is that something that you were aware of and therefore assumed that it would be used no no i mean my at the time i wasn't
00:55:35 no i mean my at the time i wasn't particularly um concerned with fire per se it was if for example there'd been an issue when one of the lifts had failed we still had another lift that was
00:55:46 we still had another lift that was available not specific to fire because in in a fire um you probably wouldn't want to use the lifts anyway so my view was it was a stay put
00:55:57 anyway so my view was it was a stay put policy
00:55:58 policy and therefore you know you would not be looking to evacuate an entire building um in the way that we subsequently that happened did you ever consider with
00:56:09 that happened did you ever consider with the state
00:56:09 the state policy if the fire or if a fire occurred in
00:56:14 in in someone's flat and that person had a disability which prevents them from leaving easily did you ever consider what should happen in that scenario
00:56:26 in that scenario no because i considered that my view would have been on that that there was a health and safety that would have been covered as part of a health and safety risk assessment the the the policy that was in place
00:56:38 the the the policy that was in place should have factored that in it wasn't necessarily something for me to consider the organisation would have already considered that and put its policy in place did you know that the organization had done that or
00:56:51 that the organization had done that or do you assume that that's what they i would have assumed that and that's um based on you know experience of working in other authorities and other other housing providers there is a general
00:57:03 housing providers there is a general assumption that that those things will be in place
00:57:08 you also refer to tenancy information seats in your third witness statement can ask you to look at what i hope is an example of one tmo h treble zero one eight nine
00:57:19 h treble zero one eight nine six eight
00:57:28 [Music] yes is this a tenancy information sheet as far as you can recall or are aware um
00:57:40 or are aware um i don't recall seeing the paperwork but it says tenancy information at the top so i would assume so
00:57:50 would you have seen these posts sorry these documents while you're in post as neighborhood team leader do you think would you have ever had to work with them on a regular basis um the housing officers more than myself i may have seen
00:58:01 i may have seen um some um i can't recall at the moment whether i would or not um but yet the housing officers these would have been dealing with these documents uh far more routinely than i ever would
00:58:12 uh far more routinely than i ever would if we could scroll to the bottom of that first page please there's a question there does the tenant or anyone in the household have additional support needs please specify and give details of agency and contacts in place
00:58:25 agency and contacts in place were you aware of the purpose of that question
00:58:28 question um i was aware of the i'm aware of the purpose of it um effectively this could be um this form could be used at the point that we're um
00:58:39 that we're um signing a new a person signing their tenancy for the first time um this will usually be the first time that our officers will have been meeting the new incoming tenant we would get a certain amount of information from our bktc
00:58:51 information from our bktc as they were responsible for doing the nomination and for that for that customer so would have all the background this would be a further opportunity to collect information at the point of sign
00:59:02 collect information at the point of sign up
00:59:03 up and would be determined on what the the tenant or the incoming prospective tenant
00:59:07 tenant um would choose would choose to share would it ever as far as you're aware have been used to formulate plans for assistance in an emergency such as a fire i'm not aware that it would have
00:59:20 fire i'm not aware that it would have been
00:59:20 been however it does follow that um that information um could have been used for that purpose yeah
00:59:29 yeah can i ask you about introductory tenancy agreements
00:59:34 you refer to the asian you start with a statement can i ask you to look at an example please tmo h 0019941
00:59:47 tmo h 0019941 and if we could look to page six please
00:59:54 and one dot one three if you could look at that
00:59:58 at that please just bartholomew
01:00:02 [Music] do you recognize this tenancy agreement would you have been involved in in these in any way um i didn't carry
01:00:13 in these in any way um i didn't carry out sign ups what we call sign ups signing of new tenancy agreements i didn't carry those out routinely again that's housing officers
01:00:20 officers um i think um i did um ask to be trained up on how to do them at some point because we were a small housing officers and people had to be out and about so it was just in
01:00:32 to be out and about so it was just in case there was nobody around one day that i could do them so i think they were looking to train me up and i did probably fill out one or two of these um in my own uh tenure there um so yeah
01:00:45 in my own uh tenure there um so yeah i do uh reckon i do recognize this i think yeah can i ask you to look at if you look at the black box at the bottom just above it there's a paragraph that says if you have ticked
01:00:56 paragraph that says if you have ticked any of the boxes above please give more details below this will enable the tmo to decide if you need additional help to manage your tenancy
01:01:02 tenancy yes did you understand did you know what the purpose of that my understanding of sorry my understanding of that would have been
01:01:13 on occasion we would need to refer some of our customers on for additional support welfare support things like that and to support them in their tenancy moving
01:01:24 support them in their tenancy moving forward
01:01:25 forward um so that is what my my understanding of that that box would have been for to see if there was an ongoing referral necessary for a particular customer if they were having difficulties in a particular area
01:01:37 difficulties in a particular area would it have considered consideration of
01:01:41 of needs in the event of an emergency do you think
01:01:44 you think um i don't i don't think so and the reason why i say that is it was helped to manage their tenancy and so from my perspective as a housing manager i'd be thinking along the terms
01:01:55 manager i'd be thinking along the terms of welfare benefits advice and support with
01:01:57 with financial planning um i'd be looking at mental health support potentially things that would sustain the tenancy and maintain that contractual relationship and for the for the customer not to lose their
01:02:09 the for the customer not to lose their home
01:02:09 home bearing in mind this is a probationary tenancy so it's it's really important to sustain it could that agreement have been used to obtain information that would have
01:02:21 obtain information that would have informed the team about needs in the event of an emergency uh it potentially it could have been yeah we've seen three examples now the the audits the
01:02:32 the audits the information questionnaires and then the the tenancy agreements themselves which ask for information about vulnerabilities do you agree yes
01:02:44 there are then those various ways in collecting that information but it wasn't a comprehensive system is that correct it wouldn't have addressed people who had existing tenancies or had been in
01:02:55 had existing tenancies or had been in the property for a long time is that fair yes the audit should have covered people that had been in their tenancies for a longer period of time
01:03:04 of time and that would depend on whether the particular property had been subject to a tenancy audit correct correct can you tell us how often the audits took place i'm afraid i can't recall that could you
01:03:16 i'm afraid i can't recall that could you sorry i think i overspoke [Music]
01:03:20 [Music] can you recall or can you help us with how often any one property would have been subject to a tenant's tenancy audit i actually can't remember the frequency
01:03:32 i actually can't remember the frequency to be honest um there was a they had a number that they needed to achieve in any in a year um but i can't recall the frequency that they were they were completing them um
01:03:45 they were completing them um i'm really sorry i can't assist any further with that mr chairman i've come to the end of that topic i'd like to move on to another one but i wonder if this is an appropriate moment to
01:03:53 moment to to break well it probably is isn't it yes well we always have a break during the afternoon it was for homu and this seems like a good time to take it okay so we'll stop now we'll resume at half
01:04:04 so we'll stop now we'll resume at half past three please and uh please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room all right thank you very much
01:04:18 [Music]
01:04:22 right hopefully then please yep
01:20:50 would you ask mr bartholomew to come back in please
01:21:03 [Music] i am thank you thank you very much yes it's good
01:21:09 it's good can i ask you to look next that uh one of mr stoke's far risk assessments in respective grenfell tower the reference is cst 6087.
01:21:28 the reference is cst 6087. no if you look at that document that's dated the 26th of april 2016 do you see that
01:21:32 that yes i do you joined a month after that yes i did would you have been aware of this effort being carried out to uh at grenfell tower
01:21:43 grenfell tower the preceding month
01:21:46 i'm afraid i can't recall seeing that would you have ever requested a copy of this
01:21:50 this fire risk assessment no it could be turned to page 22 of it please
01:21:59 [Music]
01:22:02 you see under the heading there are 13 disabled people
01:22:08 yes see the tick in the box yes yes and that's in response to the question it is considered that the building is provided with reasonable arrangements for means of escape for
01:22:19 arrangements for means of escape for disabled people [Music]
01:22:22 [Music] were you aware of what those means to escape where [Music]
01:22:33 [Music] no in terms of i knew that there was a the there was the emergency exit stairwell
01:22:40 stairwell um which was available um but anything in addition to that no no one ever came to inside these other ways in which disabled people will
01:22:53 ways in which disabled people will escape from grenfell tower not that i can recall i'm afraid no if we look into the comments box beneath that
01:23:02 that mr stokes writes at the time of the risk assessment there is no evidence of any resident within the premises who suffers from sensory impairment such level that would prevent them from hearing a shortage one in the fire
01:23:13 hearing a shortage one in the fire or loud knocking on their entrance door to warn them [Music]
01:23:18 [Music] given your knowledge of residence and grenfell target time was that correct as far as you're aware that there were no such residents
01:23:29 [Music] sorry can you repeat that for me mr stokes says at the time there is success there was no evidence of any resident who suffered from sensory impairment which would prevent them mr i'm sorry to and to interrupt you are
01:23:41 mr i'm sorry to and to interrupt you are you reading from the same document we're looking at because when you read it the first time i sense that the words are slightly different from what i was reading yeah well might make you may i read verbatim from
01:23:53 might make you may i read verbatim from the
01:23:54 the the risk assessment then i'm sorry sorry thank you
01:23:57 thank you the the document at the time of the risk assessment there was no evidence of any resident within the premises who suffers from sensory impairment that would prevent them from hearing a shard of wound in a fire
01:24:10 was that correct as far as you understood the position in grenfell tower whenever you joined it in may 2016. i wouldn't have been able to have made a conclusion on that i that would that would have meant that
01:24:22 i that would that would have meant that i'd have had to have known every individual tenant every individual household member to make that assessment i wouldn't have been aware of that
01:24:33 the next paragraph is tmo have introduced a comprehensive program to gather information about tenants including any disabilities and their physical ability and mobility to respond to any emergency situations
01:24:47 to respond to any emergency situations this information will be imputed on a tp tracker system and held centrally first of all were you aware of a comprehensive program to gather information about disabilities
01:25:00 to gather information about disabilities that have been introduced at that point no my assumption is they meant the tenancy audit process that would be my assumption were
01:25:11 process that would be my assumption were you
01:25:12 you aware of a tp tracker system not that i can recall no
01:25:26 not that i can recall no the next paragraph is the additional information will be used to assess if residents may require additional devices to provide them with early warning of smoke so that's far in their home and or development of a personal
01:25:38 and or development of a personal emergency evacuation plan in bracket peeps
01:25:43 are you familiar with the term personal emergency evacuation plan i am would you have been familiar with that term at the time that you started the tmo
01:25:52 the tmo i was how were you familiar with it i worked
01:25:55 worked i worked for a borough previously i believe it was hillingdon where they had um developed their work of personal evacuation plans so i was aware of that terminology from when i worked at hillingdon
01:26:07 when i worked at hillingdon were you made aware of it or of a personal emergency evacuation plan scheme at tmo not that i can recall did anyone at tmo inform you about
01:26:19 did anyone at tmo inform you about personal emergency evacuation plans or the circumstances in which one should be prepared
01:26:24 prepared not that i can recall did you know of anyone being referred for a personal emergency evacuation plan um not in the
01:26:35 um not in the tower although there may have been i think i have a recollection of a vulnerable customer in a sheltered scheme
01:26:45 scheme that had a personal evacuation plan developed although it may have been referred to more of as a risk assessment for that individual but they weren't in a tower they were in a shelter scheme so i think i have a recollection of that
01:26:56 recollection of that but not of a personal evacuation plan for for grenfell tower you you told the inquiry a few moments ago about your knowledge of people with sensory
01:27:08 knowledge of people with sensory impairments in the tower and i think you said that you wouldn't have known that information specifically addressed in the point of physical mobility restriction would you have known of any residents in atar who suffered a
01:27:20 residents in atar who suffered a physical restricting mobility that might have meant they were a peep was appropriate for them at the time of the fire there were there was
01:27:29 was one resident that i was aware of um because um by virtue of the fact that the
01:27:35 the the customer had a disability scooter and a mobility scooter and from memory i think she was housed in the hidden homes which were the the new properties that were developed
01:27:47 the new properties that were developed in the tower that had been um built with uh disability in mind so the doors were wider and there were various adjustments made within the property um so i think that particular customer i
01:27:59 so i think that particular customer i was aware of um but i couldn't say that i was aware of anybody else unfortunately we may come back to to to the customer you refer to but can i ask you to look at a document
01:28:10 but can i ask you to look at a document which is a fire safety strategy that's at tm00830598
01:28:21 do you recognize that document
01:28:33 i'm afraid i can't recollect reading that document
01:28:39 do you recall ever saying it it's possible um but i i can't recollect at this time i'm afraid did you know that such document
01:28:51 afraid did you know that such document existed that there was a fire safety strategy i would have assumed something like that would have been in place that's been my experience of most of the organizations if not all of them that i've worked for that there was usually a health and safety fire strategy in
01:29:04 a health and safety fire strategy in place um
01:29:07 so it would have been my assumption that the document was there
01:29:15 can i ask you to look at janice reyes one of her witness statements to the inquiry it's a tmo0
01:29:26 page 35. you can ask you look at page paragraph 114-115
01:29:42 paragraph 114 i've been asked to provide more information on the tmo's intention to produce peeps for vulnerable and disabled residents i've also been asked to decide extent of my knowledge and involvement in this plan
01:29:53 in this plan paragraph 115 peeps were generally targeted at workplace and occupational settings and not residential dwellings additionally the health and safety team were not routinely advised of the location of vulnerable residents or those with disabilities
01:30:04 those with disabilities if vulnerable or disabled residents raised concerns with my state or neighborhood colleagues we would have visited that resident and or asked the fire risk assessor to visit and or sought an lfb home fire safety
01:30:15 and or sought an lfb home fire safety visit
01:30:18 visit were you aware that you could make a referral to the health and safety team for a peep to be prepared
01:30:26 not specifically for a peep but if i if there were health and safety concerns um then it may have been raised in a different way and a peep may have uh resulted out of that
01:30:39 have uh resulted out of that conversation um but not specifically i wasn't ever aware of a situation where i'd specifically say we need a peep for this customer or this customer
01:30:52 can i ask you to look next at the supporting residence policy and procedure
01:30:58 procedure that's at eight zero tm00804 it one
01:31:04 it one [Music]
01:31:08 [Music] could you look at that that document do you recognize it have you seen it before i don't believe i have
01:31:20 [Music] were you aware of whether once such a policy existed [Music]
01:31:37 [Music] again i would have to assume that a policy would be in place but i i don't know the evidence that i see in front of me this is draft
01:31:48 front of me this is draft so i don't know if it was actually in place at the time or whether it was still a draft document
01:31:57 one more document on this topic the supporting resonance procedure which is at tm00880482 if we could look at that please
01:32:14 do you recognize this procedure document [Music]
01:32:24 i may have seen it i can't actually recall i'm afraid [Music]
01:32:29 [Music] do you know if this do you have any recollection of whether this procedure was implemented or enforce it at the time you worked the tmu
01:32:46 i'm not aware of that
01:32:50 can i just ask i notice up the foot of the page it says draft 10. were you aware either that he was going through drafts was anyone tell you that i'm afraid not so
01:33:01 anyone tell you that i'm afraid not so i'm not
01:33:02 i'm not i don't know i'm not aware so it follows you don't know whether it was ever finalized and put into effect correct thank you
01:33:10 thank you [Music]
01:33:13 next i ask you about i think you mentioned a moment ago a customer you're aware of
01:33:17 aware of who had um issues within grenfell tower can we look at that you you go into some detail paragraph 32 of your
01:33:25 of your third witness statement can we look at that please [Music]
01:33:30 [Music] tmo0871021 on page six you just read that to yourself please
01:33:50 you just read that to yourself please yes do you recall was the lady's name mariko toyoshima lewis yes that that brings about yeah uh that's flat nine at grenfell tower uh i don't know the approx the door number i'm afraid
01:34:02 number i'm afraid were you aware that she was a wheelchair user and
01:34:05 user and registered as disabled uh i wasn't fully aware of that however her use of a mobility scooter would suggest that in her
01:34:17 that in her phase two witness statement to the inquiry at paragraph 63 she gave some evidence about this if we could look at that please the references iws quadruple zero
01:34:29 iws quadruple zero 1725 that's page 21.
01:34:40 [Music] if we can zoom in on paragraph 63 please
01:34:51 what she says is one of the issues i did raise was regarding what would happen in terms of me escaping if there was a fire i asked rob and the neighborhood officer what would happen if there was a fire in relation to me escaping
01:35:02 relation to me escaping i also asked the people working in the latin road office what would happen if there was a fire as i'm in a wheelchair and if we could move down to paragraph 67 on the same page she says
01:35:15 paragraph 67 on the same page she says the response that i received in relation to what would happen if there was a fire and i'm in a wheelchair was from rob and the neighborhood office was verbal where i was told that i am on the list for disabled people in the tower
01:35:26 for disabled people in the tower could we also look at paragraph 78 please in that document which is on page 29
01:35:35 i asked the extent inspector of the tower about how i would escape in the event of a fire i cannot remember his name he came and talked to me for three hours explaining
01:35:46 about how the building was built and designed to contain a fire he told me that there was very thick concrete 80 centimeters around the flat ensuring that the flower is completely safe in the event of a fire he told me that because of this protection i did
01:35:57 that because of this protection i did not have to leave the flat the event fire as it was safe to remain in flat if the fire had not started in my flat
01:36:06 the reference said rob can you help us with who rob might be possibly robert regan
01:36:13 were you aware of the issues that this toyotas had raised in respect of her escaping event of the fire not specifically about her escape although
01:36:25 although she was in a property that had been allocated
01:36:29 allocated by rbkc so we didn't do the allocation of that property the tmo didn't do the allocation to that property um
01:36:39 um and at that time the staple policy was was in place so
01:36:46 was there any consideration of referring miss lures for a personal emergency evacuation plan [Music]
01:36:57 [Music] not that i can recall does that mean that there may have been consideration of it or or you don't think there was at all [Music]
01:37:09 [Music] i don't think it could have been because had consideration been given then it would have been done so i can only assume that it wasn't considered [Music]
01:37:19 [Music] in terms of consideration of that issue what
01:37:23 what her evacuation in the event of a fire who should have dealt with that or who would normally be expected to deal with on
01:37:30 with on in the neighborhood or through the neighborhood office would that have been your role
01:37:36 um i think it's something that the housing officer would have been able to deal with
01:37:40 deal with with the um with the resident um and seek the appropriate advice um it wouldn't necessarily have been for me
01:37:51 it wouldn't necessarily have been for me to do that um it would have taken somebody i assume with some
01:37:55 with some health and safety and fire evacuation experience that's been trained to be able to develop that evacuation plan so it wouldn't necessarily have been within my skill set to do can we look at
01:38:09 within my skill set to do can we look at an email chain from october 2016 at five tm01004 nine three please [Music]
01:38:23 if we scroll to the bottom on the second page i think
01:38:44 on the second page i think so what
01:38:47 so what ms ray is uh informing you of you saw the email was to you
01:38:55 to you um the fire risk assessor at grenfell tower and if you're looking at halfway through the first paragraph it says however the assessor is advised there is a mobility scooter parked in the common lobby outside flat nine
01:39:07 the common lobby outside flat nine and this is being charged through the letterbox of the flat at the time of his visit
01:39:10 visit paul has never made me aware of this were you aware that the residency permission of scooter in this area and how do we inform them of the ban on charging in the common areas
01:39:20 if we could scroll up to see your response please you say in response to janice ray i'm at grenfell tomorrow so we'll deal with the
01:39:31 grenfell tomorrow so we'll deal with the scooter issue myself also i'm there we'll update you on friday
01:39:37 do you remember in fact going to speak with
01:39:40 with this toyotas at granfell tower i do remember speaking um to the customer i can't remember if it was um at this juncture but i did spend
01:39:51 um at this juncture but i did spend some time with this particular lady in her flat
01:39:55 her flat discussing she had various issues um some to do with the um i think there was an issue with telephone line and some other concerns that she had
01:40:07 and some other concerns that she had so i can't remember if i visited her specifically about the scooter issue or with all of the issues together but i know i did i did visit this this lady one visit or more than one i can't
01:40:19 one visit or more than one i can't actually remember definitely one i can't remember if it was more than one and on
01:40:25 and on the one occasion or if it was more than one on another occasion did she raise with you this issue about evacuation in the event of a fire
01:40:37 fire i actually can't recall that um
01:40:42 um [Music]
01:40:44 [Music] yeah i can't recall whether she did
01:40:48 is the evidence and you she may have done but you can't recall whether she did or not it's possible it's certainly possible um but
01:40:55 but um yeah i literally i can't recall i'm afraid
01:40:59 afraid can you recall whether whether or not she raised it with you do you ever recall considering yourself what she would do in the event of a fire my
01:41:11 i think the way that the concern was raised was more to do with the location of the
01:41:16 of the the scooter um and so our work or the work of the housing officer was predominantly around trying to have the scooter safely housed within the property and not on the outside
01:41:27 outside and was less to do with looking at a safe means of escape for that particular customer bearing in mind it was a staple of policy so yeah the
01:41:43 generals ray's email was was because of a fire safety concern is that correct uh my understanding was it's because the scooter the way the scooter was outside and the and from this email it appears that
01:41:54 and from this email it appears that because of the electric supply running from the property out through the letterbox and into the scooter that was parked outside the front door of the property as a consequence of that fire safety concern neither you nor
01:42:05 concern neither you nor you didn't think about an issue of evacuation on the fire nor did anyone ask you
01:42:09 ask you to consider that with this particular resident is that correct uh i can't speak for anybody else but i didn't i didn't um
01:42:20 but i didn't i didn't um think about a safe means of escape in in those terms because i was working on a staple policy and no one else asked you to consider that um i don't know i can't recall anybody
01:42:32 um i don't know i can't recall anybody specifically asking me to look at that
01:42:36 do you know if this issue was resolved with
01:42:39 with i think as i pointed in my statement um i said it was a live issue at the time of the fire so my my housing officer was still trying to work with social services to secure um the customer with a smaller
01:42:50 to secure um the customer with a smaller scooter that would have fitted inside the property for her use rather than having to have it outside
01:42:58 point i would probably make around that is that
01:43:01 is that the allocation made probably needed some work in terms of was it a pro was it an appropriate allocation in the first instance and that's a conversation that needs to be taken place with rbkc you made the
01:43:13 be taken place with rbkc you made the nomination and the allocation to that property
01:43:19 the email that was assumed was from transfer in october 2016 so a good few months in advance of the fire
01:43:29 fire the evidence is then that it wasn't resolved
01:43:32 resolved in any way by the date of the fire in june 2017 is that correct in terms of an evacuation plan for that customer or the scooter either both yeah neither will neither
01:43:44 either both yeah neither will neither appear to be resolved by understanding [Music]
01:43:51 can i ask you about communications you had with residents yep
01:43:58 paragraph 36 of your first witness statement
01:44:01 statement which is a tmo five zero eight nine four uh page seven if we could pull that up please thank you
01:44:10 you if we could zoom in on paragraph thirty seven sorry sorry thirty six because i joined the tmo just after the refurbishment project was completed a conscious decision was made within the organization that i would not become involved in any complaints
01:44:22 become involved in any complaints relating to that project without decision made before or after your recruitment to the tmo
01:44:36 i can't fix precisely when but i got very much of a view when i started um that the organization was keen
01:44:47 um that the organization was keen to have a bit of a almost a bit of a fresh start in terms of the works were now completed and we wanted to move on um to having a more
01:45:00 um effective communication and constructive communication with residents sorry had you finished yeah that's fine does that mean that you
01:45:13 yeah that's fine does that mean that you were aware that the communication between residents of grenfell and the table had been ineffective up to that point ineffective in terms of
01:45:26 that i was aware that there had been difficulties now whether that you know and for many reasons
01:45:33 reasons um i'd reviewed some of the before joining the organization i had the opportunity to read some of the things online some of the blogs
01:45:44 things online some of the blogs i was aware coming into the post that there had been some issues
01:45:51 and very much saw it as an opportunity to start afresh can i ask you to look out uh
01:46:03 can i ask you to look out uh on the issue of talent's handbook at a document
01:46:07 document the reference which is iws quadruple zero
01:46:11 zero one three four three
01:46:22 uh if we look at the bottom of that page it's an email from shah ahmed on the 6th 2016 to millicent williams who i think you said was one of your housing officers that's correct
01:46:33 officers that's correct you're copied into that and he asks could you kindly send me the talent handbook at your earliest convenience
01:46:45 if we could scroll up to ms williams response
01:46:49 response she says good morning mr shah thank you for your email unfortunately i'm unable to provide you with a copy of the tenant's handbook at this time as the manual is currently under review let's hope that the tenant's handbook will be ready for distribution early
01:47:00 will be ready for distribution early next year
01:47:01 next year practice 2017. uh can you look at the i think an undated
01:47:12 can you look at the i think an undated version of the handbook
01:47:20 tm010041915
01:47:24 perhaps we could scroll down to the next page
01:47:27 page please
01:47:31 if it assists we can we can scroll through the document but having seen those first two pages is a document that you recognize i believe so you do recognize this believe so yeah do
01:47:42 you do recognize this believe so yeah do you know if this handbook was finalized in 2017 i'm afraid i don't know whether it was finalized do you know if it was ever provided to residents
01:47:54 um i can't say that because i wouldn't be the person issuing it to residents so i can't i can't answer that question i'm afraid who would have issued it to residents um
01:48:05 who would have issued it to residents um i'm i'm assuming if it was the tenant's handbook that that would have been issued as part of at the tenancy sign up stage um and so any officers doing sign ups tenancy sign-ups
01:48:16 tenancy sign-ups and that may have been part of the pack of information that new tenants were given
01:48:20 given so who would who would do his officers have been is that your heist and officers housing officers so militant janice susan and you know all the other officers that work within the tmo the housing officers was there an officer called daniel lewis
01:48:32 daniel lewis daniel lewis was our administration officer um who worked across all the teams
01:48:40 teams so yeah he wasn't a housing officer per se he was he was a part of our wider admin team do you know if he would have been involved in providing tenants handbooks to residents it's possible given that he was doing
01:48:52 it's possible given that he was doing the administration
01:48:56 can i ask you next to look at your second with certain paragraphs i'm sorry can you just help me decide to interrupt you something else um i think shah ahmed's um request was made
01:49:08 i think shah ahmed's um request was made in about october i didn't quite get the date yes and it was hoped that the new version of the handbook would be available in early the following year what did you give
01:49:19 give any tenant who was signed up during that period
01:49:22 period were there stocks of the old one it's possible that there were um and he could have had that couldn't he um he could have done however i'm not sure this may have been
01:49:33 however i'm not sure this may have been a tenant's handbook and i think shah was a leaseholder so that may have been different information well he might have been interested to read it he he may in indeed but um yeah
01:49:45 he he may in indeed but um yeah i don't i don't know i mean do you do you actually know whether there were existing stocks or whether there weren't i'm afraid i can't tell you i don't know thank you very much yes to go sorry thank you
01:49:56 go sorry thank you chairman second with the student if we may paragraph 14 reference tm00842401 page five
01:50:11 page five you say here you recall shannon stunley suggesting floor signage might need to be replaced after gas pipes gas pipe work was completed because the work obscured the uh the numbers is that that's correct is
01:50:24 uh the numbers is that that's correct is that yes
01:50:26 that yes were you aware of any temporary numbering that had been put in place at grandfather uh no not that i can
01:50:36 recall can you remember when you and mr donnelly discussed this issue of replacement floor signage i can't remember specifically when we discussed it it was a
01:50:47 a there was an occasion where it's discussed across the office so just um shane is saying to me the pipe the the pipes
01:50:58 the pipe the the pipes are potentially covering the numbers um we need to get them replaced so i think i probably said something in response to okay fine um we'll get that we'll get that
01:51:09 fine um we'll get that we'll get that resolved um again after after the works were complete did you consider whether it presented a fire safety issue for
01:51:21 it presented a fire safety issue for example
01:51:21 example allowing the fire brigade to find their way around the building did that occur to you
01:51:25 to you well it would have occurred to the estate service supervisors the esa's that were carrying out the um weekly inspections should have been
01:51:36 weekly inspections should have been raised as part of that you said would have occurred to them where it should have been raised was it i don't know because i didn't manage the estate service supervisors at that time did you report that as an issue to anyone to the health and safety team for
01:51:48 anyone to the health and safety team for example
01:51:50 example this specific issue on the numbering yeah um
01:51:54 yeah um no i don't recall that i did
01:51:59 [Music] my understanding was as i said in my statement it ran across the numbers it didn't
01:52:06 didn't i wasn't aware that it completely obscured the numbers um so and i don't think anybody said to me that the numbers weren't entirely visible did you
01:52:18 weren't entirely visible did you consider it a health and safety issue at all
01:52:20 all [Music]
01:52:27 probably not at that time no because my view on that would have been that if it was then the appropriate people would have raised it as a concern and and dealt
01:52:38 raised it as a concern and and dealt with it
01:52:42 so probably not immediately to me um again as i say it very much depends whether
01:52:48 whether it was the pipes were running across the numbers or whether they were completely obscured
01:52:55 mr chairman i've come to the end of my prepared questions may i request the usual 15 minute break yes
01:53:01 yes see if there are others right well um mrs farson we always have to have a short break at this point to enable the council to take stock and and perhaps put other questions that may be suggested by other
01:53:12 questions that may be suggested by other people
01:53:13 people so we'll we'll break now until 20 past four and then we'll see whether there are any more questions for you at that stage all right thank you thank you very much
01:53:24 all right thank you thank you very much please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room okay thank you thank you
01:53:38 20 percent please
02:10:31 would you ask us but bartholomew to come in again please
02:10:46 all right miss pothole are you ready to carry on yes thank you and we'll see whether any more questions for you yes mr guard thank you mr chairman i asked you some questions about the collection of information about
02:10:58 the collection of information about vulnerable residents within grandfather i think you you informed the inquiry that you you wouldn't know the detail of that information correct yes would you have known how to
02:11:12 yes would you have known how to access that information collectively at all um i think what i would have done is i'd have spoken to david noble and asked for a
02:11:23 spoken to david noble and asked for a list that way i wouldn't i don't i don't recollect knowing
02:11:28 knowing how to collate that kind of information myself
02:11:31 myself does it follow then that in the event of an emergency where that collection of information was relevant you wouldn't have been able to do that
02:11:39 do that you would have had to have asked david noble to do that is that correct uh yes and also i would have needed access
02:11:47 access to the system to be able to do it so i i wouldn't have had um we didn't have laptops or anything at the time of the fire i certainly didn't so i there's not something i
02:11:58 didn't so i there's not something i could have done remotely um myself
02:12:03 you couldn't have said or or been able to assess how that information would have impacted upon their ability to evacuate those particular residents is that correct you couldn't have
02:12:16 is that correct you couldn't have addressed that issue in the event of an emergency high such residents would be able to evacuate addressed in what way sorry you wouldn't
02:12:27 addressed in what way sorry you wouldn't have been able to provide that information and assess what such people would be able to do in events of emergency is that correct um
02:12:35 um not in respect of every resident no can i ask you about logging complaints yes no if a residence attended the
02:12:46 yes no if a residence attended the office
02:12:47 office in lancaster west and what was the system for and they wanted to make a complaint what was the sister system for logging such complaints where they attended in person
02:12:58 person um i think it would depend on who they saw and what the nature of the complaint was so we had at the office there was a customer services officer on the reception desk
02:13:09 reception desk that would deal with any customers coming into the office routinely taking down details and passing that on to the relevant people and certainly if that was in
02:13:20 people and certainly if that was in relation to repairs because customer services assistants or customer service advisors would would be able to log repairs from the office there and then
02:13:31 office there and then so from that respect they would deal with that i also had housing officers on a duty system so if it wasn't
02:13:39 it wasn't that kind of query or complaint they would be able to see a duty housing officer who could hopefully pick up those details and interview the customer and see what the situation was and pick that up and rectify that so
02:13:51 and pick that up and rectify that so there was a there's a couple of different ways that it could have been dealt with would would the complaints have been sent to the compliance team if they were launched in that way
02:14:02 launched in that way um it depends if it if the if the customer was asking was was making a formal complaint it's two different it's almost two different things so the the ability to cut for customers to raise formal
02:14:13 to cut for customers to raise formal complaints was available and my understanding is that that information was available on the tmos website i believe about how to how to make a formal complaint
02:14:23 complaint via catherine dax team and the three-stage formal complaint process um the things that would would come via our office would be things that we would try and resolve
02:14:35 things that we would try and resolve quickly that wouldn't necessarily necessarily wouldn't need um a formal um complaint process if we could fix it quickly if it was a simple issue that
02:14:46 quickly if it was a simple issue that could just be resolved quickly to the customer's satisfaction that's what we were aiming to achieve what about complaints made by telephone to the office at lancaster west how would they have been logged and responded to um
02:14:59 have been logged and responded to um i think with the crm system um officers were able to take notes of conversations that they were having with residents
02:15:07 residents and put that on crm and raise um concerns or queries via the crm system and send that to the relevant department that needed to deal with it and so that was available as well if
02:15:19 and so that was available as well if phone calls were received is it possible that residents either falling in or tending at the lancaster west office may have made a complaint which was not locked or passed to the
02:15:30 was not locked or passed to the compliance team is that possible yeah certainly possible could you say hi likely that was to happen impossible to say really there's so you know there are various different people
02:15:42 know there are various different people involved and it was an estate office so there were people you know in and out all the time so very difficult to say what or how many
02:15:53 what or how many formal complaints wouldn't have been logged i wouldn't have that information can i ask you about smoke alarm tests and checks would you have been involved in smoke
02:16:04 would you have been involved in smoke alarm tests or checks at any stage
02:16:09 not that i can recall if a resident came and said
02:16:14 and said i'd like my smoke alarm tested i can't do it myself would did that instant ever type of vincent like that ever occur i i couldn't tell you i'm afraid i couldn't tell you if that happened i mean i would assume that someone would
02:16:25 mean i would assume that someone would come into the office and speak to the customer service advisor um and and and and say that if they were coming into the office and then you know that would have been dealt with
02:16:36 you know that would have been dealt with um
02:16:37 um but i'm not aware of any cases of that nature you you yourself you can't address i recall addressing such an issue or resolving such an issue not off the top of my head no i'm afraid i can't
02:16:50 are there any other points or is there any other evidence you think that the panel would be assisted by knowing that you'd like to give
02:17:01 knowing that you'd like to give um no not that i can think of thank you um obviously what i would this being an opportunity for just formally say how
02:17:12 say how incredibly sorry i am um to all the bereaved and everybody that suffered thank you i have no further questions mr chapman
02:17:23 chapman well mr bartholomew it only reminds me for me to thank you very much on behalf of
02:17:28 of the panel as a whole for coming in to give your evidence today it's been really helpful to hear from you and it's very valuable exercise so thank you very much indeed and you're now free to go
02:17:50 well mr guys that presumably is a convenient point to conclude for the day i hope so and uh we shall uh embark on another witness tomorrow
02:18:00 tomorrow mr miller yes we'll be taking that tomorrow and that'll be at 10 o'clock tomorrow so 10 o'clock tomorrow then please thank you chairman
02:18:19 you