TMO witness Claire Williams gives evidence about communication with Grenfell residents during refurbishment, fire safety advice, complaints handling, and the organization's relationship with residents and the Estate Management Board.
00:00:25 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing
00:00:28 hearing today we're going to hear further evidence from employers of the tmo yes mr millett good morning mr chairman good morning members of the panel i now
00:00:39 members of the panel i now call miss claire williams please thank you
00:00:58 good morning miss williams i'm going to ask you to make the affirmation again i know you made it last time you gave evidence but i think we released you so it would be sensible to do it again i think you should have the words on the screen
00:01:09 should have the words on the screen they are i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now do sit down make
00:01:21 thank you very much now do sit down make yourself comfortable
00:01:29 all right yes mr miller mr chairman thank you miss williams good morning can i begin uh by thanking you very much for attending once again to the inquiry to give your evidence we
00:01:40 to the inquiry to give your evidence we are very grateful to you if you have any difficulty understanding any of my questions or you'd like me to put the question again i can do that if you feel you need a break at any time
00:01:52 a break at any time other than the scheduled breaks which we will take in the normal way halfway through the morning and halfway through the afternoon we can take a break
00:02:01 break if you need one just let us know one other thing i would ask you to do just by way of reminding you is to keep your voice up if you can say that the transcriber who sits to your right can get your
00:02:12 who sits to your right can get your evidence down clearly don't nod don't shake your head you have to say yes or no as the case may be
00:02:21 may be now you've made a number of statements to the inquiry for the purposes of my questions i'm going to ask you about five of them uh when you first gave evidence to the inquiry in module one we went through those statements and
00:02:32 one we went through those statements and you confirmed that they were true say for some corrections have you read or re-read any of those or each of those statements recently i have you have and just again have you
00:02:43 you have and just again have you discussed your evidence with anybody before coming here today no now i'm going to begin my substantive questions to you by asking you about some of the means of communication
00:02:55 about some of the means of communication that you had with residents of grenfell tower during the project and can i begin with newsletters can we go please to your first witness statement
00:03:06 statement at page 23 that's tmo 008 40364 your first witness statement page 23 paragraph 121
00:03:19 page 23 paragraph 121 and you say there one of the first tasks i undertook on joining tmo was to prepare
00:03:24 prepare a grenfell tower regeneration newsletter dated 11th september 2013 which picked up on issues that had been raised from a residence meeting prior to my joining the company that
00:03:36 prior to my joining the company that newsletter was principally to introduce myself to residents and to let them know of future events and drop-in sessions to be able to inform them
00:03:43 them of the planned work's progress etc were you responsible for preparing all of the grenfell tower refurbishment newsletters my predecessor paul duncaton
00:03:56 newsletters my predecessor paul duncaton had started them i had in my directory seven or eight previously so i followed that route
00:04:09 followed that route i did prepare them but the information within them was on the basis that i'd asked the housing management team and ryden what information they wanted
00:04:20 and ryden what information they wanted to put in the newsletter um because obviously this the first one i did was before ryden were on board but there were always messages perhaps the housing management team were working
00:04:31 the housing management team were working on
00:04:33 on which meant that it was important they had input so that we were being consistent and being thorough who was it
00:04:41 was it in the housing management team that you would routinely ask for information to put into the regeneration newsletter it would be the neighborhood
00:04:54 it would be the neighborhood housing manager who was siobhan nicola but i would also ask the um the neighborhood officer the person with
00:05:02 with the grassroots person the person who has um had day-to-day dealings as well it's easier just to ask them both because sometimes one might miss something and between september 2013 and may 2016
00:05:15 and between september 2013 and may 2016 who was the neighborhood officer as you say with the grass who had the grassroots knowledge um jan jones was the hands-on housing officer
00:05:27 now we've counted 21 newsletters distributed to the residents of the tower between september 2013 and may 2016. did you prepare them all um
00:05:38 may 2016. did you prepare them all um so there were some before my time that paul dunkerton had done i'm not sure on the total numbers
00:05:44 numbers i think we always agreed that the newsletter would only go out if there was something to say we decided there wouldn't be a monthly one automatically because some months there wasn't anything um to report on
00:05:57 there wasn't anything um to report on so i i don't know if the number's 21 it sounds
00:06:00 sounds say i think before my time there's about seven or nine yes but after your time would you say that you were responsible ultimately for preparing all of those that went out to the residence
00:06:11 that went out to the residence with the input from our housing management and ryden yes yes now um we have seen only two of those 21 newsletters which refer to fire safety advice specifically
00:06:23 fire safety advice specifically i'd like just to look at those with you if i can can we please go first to the july 2014 newsletter at cst401919
00:06:34 to the july 2014 newsletter at cst401919 let's look at the first page of that first to identify it there it is there's the now familiar digger on the front a photograph there but if we go to page two please and look
00:06:45 but if we go to page two please and look at the bottom of that page you can see that there's a section which says emergency fire arrangements you see that yes and it says our long-standing stay put policy stays in force until you are told otherwise
00:06:56 force until you are told otherwise this means that unless there is a fire in your flat or in the hallway outside your flat you should stay inside your flat
00:07:02 flat this is because grenfell was designed according to rigorous safety step fire safety standards also the new front doors for each flat can withstand a fire for up to 30 minutes
00:07:11 minutes which gives plenty of time for the fire brigade to arrive do you remember who was responsible uh for drafting that text with all the newsletters
00:07:23 that text with all the newsletters i was involved with having gleaned the information from housing management and ryden i would do the
00:07:34 and ryden i would do the the the draft and it would go to our communications team um who went through them to make sure there was no jargon and to make sure that the
00:07:45 jargon and to make sure that the information read clearly so whereas this might have come presumably from janice ray myself that the text would have been
00:07:59 myself that the text would have been checked by the communications team to make sure it was legible and that it would be um easy to understand that it wouldn't be too too jargony leaving aside the check
00:08:12 too jargony leaving aside the check that the comms team would do to eliminate
00:08:15 eliminate jargon it sounds as if and correct me if this is
00:08:20 this is wrong that that it was you and janice ray who had the primary responsibility for drafting that paragraph in this newsletter i i think you're right yes i think we
00:08:32 i i think you're right yes i think we would have asked for something like that was that wording based on the advice of any fire safety professional
00:08:42 um yes it would have been what had come from
00:08:46 from the fire brigade and from carl stokes our fire risk assessor can i go to the second newsletter dated 20 may 2016 and that is at jrp 6028 please
00:09:03 and if we go to page four
00:09:07 the second arrow down has a section called the stay put fire policy and it says the smoke detection systems have been upgraded and extended
00:09:17 extended the fire brigade has asked us to reinforce the message that if there is a fire which is not inside your own home you are generally safest to stay put in your home to begin with fire brigade will arrive very quickly if a fire is reported
00:09:28 a fire is reported and then it continues and you can see the advice set out there in those second and third paragraphs there uh in particular in the last paragraph
00:09:40 uh in particular in the last paragraph if there is a fire in the block near your flat and you believe you are at risk and would prefer to evacuate the building
00:09:46 building then please do so using the stairs and wait outside the building for the fire brigade to arrive again was it janice ray and you who are responsible primarily for drafting
00:09:57 for drafting that section of this newsletter
00:10:03 yes and again was that based on any uh advice of a fire safety professional um yes again i think
00:10:14 um yes again i think i missed the date of this this is may 16 may 16. so i suspect this came from a query from the resident a resident about um where the assembly point was
00:10:25 point was so it was clear at that point we needed to get a wider message out yes i'm going to come to that exact uh point in a moment can we go back then
00:10:36 point in a moment can we go back then uh before we do up to the first newsletter from july 2014
00:10:42 uh and just have that up on the screen there to remind you of it there it is and
00:10:49 and um the second paragraph sorry second page
00:10:53 page bottom paragraph just have that there that was the first one i put to you this morning can we now look at your your first witness statement of paragraph
00:11:03 paragraph 210 on page 38 please
00:11:12 you're talking here about that newsletter and you say this at the top of that page the entry in the newsletter was in part prompted by emails sent by eddie dufan noting that he believed
00:11:23 noting that he believed ryden's site compound was taking up the grenfell designated evacuation meeting point the entry was to reinforce the fire safety strategy and the instructions and guidance of lfb
00:11:34 and the instructions and guidance of lfb that all occupants except those occupying the flat where the fire was should remain in the flat rather than evacuate to a meeting point uh now
00:11:46 uh now that's how you you you put it there you then let's then look please at the emails at the time tmo one zero zero zero
00:11:57 tmo one zero zero zero six eight seven five please
00:12:03 this is an exchange of emails in july 2014 between ben dewis of the lfb janice ray and you that you referred to in that paragraph if we can go to page two please
00:12:18 we see ben dewis's email of the 8th of july
00:12:21 july just above halfway down to janice ray and uh he says dear janice i received this email below from an edward defan who you may be
00:12:33 from an edward defan who you may be aware of who lives at grenfell tower and then he sets out the text of it dear ben please be advised that residents of grenfell tower are very concerned about fire safety after the recent closure of all land and
00:12:45 after the recent closure of all land and rights of way to the west and north of grenfell tower we are also very concerned that we have no idea where to assemble should there be a fire in the grenfell tower as there is no open space in the vicinity that's available to our
00:12:56 vicinity that's available to our community
00:12:57 community please can you help ensure that the fire brigade will monitor the current changes on lancaster west estate that impact on our fire safety and could you also inform us where we should assemble in the event of a fire thank you for your assistance with this matter
00:13:10 your assistance with this matter uh and he signs off edward grenfell action group and then ben dewis continues the contractor has contacted the local station to inform them of changes to access points and riser access
00:13:21 riser access the local station are making arrangements to carry out a familiarization visit for local crews unfortunately it would appear the same courtesy has not been given to the residents to update them on their emergency procedures could i ask what the measures being
00:13:32 could i ask what the measures being taken in regard to fire safety at the premises
00:13:35 premises are during the refurbishment works regards ben dewis lfb
00:13:43 and then if you go up please if we scroll up
00:13:49 scroll up the page to through page two we can see that janice ray uh can we please go to page two uh we can see and scroll up further please
00:14:01 see and scroll up further please um you can see that janice ray same day uh
00:14:05 uh forwards ben dewis's message to her on to you and she says hi claire please see the message below which i've just received from an lfb inspection officer
00:14:17 from an lfb inspection officer who has received an email from eddie defan do we need to write to residents on the issue of fire safety during the works
00:14:22 works you see that we could put something together to reassure them that there is still a stay put strategy and reiterating the procedures they should follow
00:14:29 follow works in hand to enhance fire safety in the longer term etc perhaps this has already been done question mark i i need to respond to this man and would like to be able to emphasize what we
00:14:40 like to be able to emphasize what we have already done meetings letters etc now i've shown you all of that my questions are this janice ray appears to be asking you what the fire safety arrangements were at grenfell tower at the time was
00:14:53 were at grenfell tower at the time was that because you were responsible for fire safety arrangements during the refurbishment
00:15:01 uh i i read it slightly differently i'm afraid it says we should could put something together to reassure them she's not saying that there isn't a policy she's saying there is a policy and we need to reassure them
00:15:13 is a policy and we need to reassure them yes i'm sorry just to put a slightly different angle on it yes no i understand my question is perhaps a slightly different one she's asking you in particular about what the fire safety arrangements
00:15:24 what the fire safety arrangements were at grenfell tower was she asking you in particular because you were the person who was responsible for fire safety arrangements in the building during refurbishment i i i don't believe she is asking me
00:15:37 i i i don't believe she is asking me what the
00:15:38 what the arrangements are for fire safety because she's clear there's a stay put policy but during the works i was the project manager
00:15:46 manager for the contract so i probably had more knowledge about what was happening than anyone else right my question was why was she
00:15:54 was she sending this message to you and asking you these questions in particular rather than somebody else at the tma because i would know what correspondence had gone out to the residents
00:16:05 residents now you can see that she suggests writing to residents on fire safety was this when you decided to include fire safety uh in fire safety advice in the next newsletter
00:16:16 newsletter yes yes did you discuss sending a letter to all residents of the tower expressly about
00:16:21 about fire safety
00:16:25 not a letter as such because we did the newsletter which went to all residents but i believe as well as that we put up posters and in
00:16:37 put up posters and in the notice boards and i believe that we did some more reinforcement with ryden to talk to people
00:16:46 people and just remind them and say have you seen this
00:16:49 seen this so it's not just a case of putting something through the door it was actually
00:16:52 actually you know when you had face-to-face contact reminding people right was there a reason why you didn't send a specific letter to all residents
00:17:04 send a specific letter to all residents specific letter to all residents about the fire safety arrangements during the refurbishment as opposed to having it as an item among other items in the regeneration newsletter
00:17:17 in the regeneration newsletter um i i i don't remember talking about a letter as such but you do have to be wary about putting through unsolicited letters through doors because people will
00:17:28 through doors because people will perhaps not pay as much attention to them whereas with our newsletter i i think people were expecting it and would be more likely to read it but i don't remember discussing whether
00:17:40 but i don't remember discussing whether we sent a letter to people right was it your experience at the time july 2014 that residents on the whole would pay more attention to the regeneration newsletter than to a
00:17:51 to the regeneration newsletter than to a specific
00:17:53 specific circular letter on fire safety matters um
00:17:57 um i hadn't thought of it that way so now i have no view on whether they would it would be a vanity to assume that they read my newsletters more than other circular letters but i think circular letters generally
00:18:09 think circular letters generally are not as well received now if you look at the
00:18:13 at the message from jan israey to you in the middle paragraph she says that you should put something together to reassure them that there is still a staple strategy and reiterating procedures that
00:18:25 strategy and reiterating procedures that they should follow etc and then ask a question perhaps this has already been done my question is what had you actually done to update residents about the emergency procedures to follow
00:18:37 emergency procedures to follow during the refurbishment emergency procedures effectively stayed the same
00:18:45 the same there was a stay put policy um so as you saw the two newsletters were there just to remind people and say with verbal communication as well just to
00:18:58 verbal communication as well just to keep people up to date because whereas people
00:19:00 people would have possibly um still had their tenant handbook um saying you know this is the policy a lot of people would have put it in a
00:19:11 a lot of people would have put it in a draw ten years previously and not looked at it since so this was a reminder yes i see but what is the answer to the to the second question she asks in that paragraph perhaps this has already been
00:19:22 paragraph perhaps this has already been done
00:19:23 done what had already been done we hadn't reminded people about estate policy previously um obviously you know my role was to
00:19:35 obviously you know my role was to inform residents about the regeneration works so that that wasn't something i would normally have done but we took the opportunity to use my newsletter yes it look i think you agree with me that it looks as if you took that
00:19:47 that it looks as if you took that opportunity in response to mr dewis's message uh to you uh the tmo which was in turn prompted by eddie dufan's own alert to him
00:19:59 dufan's own alert to him yes you're right and again when in the link magazine subsequent because we realize that perhaps people needed a reminder yes can we look at tmo
00:20:11 yes can we look at tmo one zero zero zero six eight eight four
00:20:18 please uh this is an email not quite in the same chain but on the same date and certainly on the same theme can we look at the second email down
00:20:29 look at the second email down you uh here uh send an email to simon o'connor
00:20:32 o'connor 8th july copy to janice ray and christina stefanou who i think was the ryden uh residence liaison officer wasn't she yes yes and you say simon thanks for
00:20:44 yes yes and you say simon thanks for this i think we should use the coffee morning and your signage new notice brought up in the main entrance to remind residents that we have a staple policy this is because the doors should be fd 30 if you look at the tma renewed
00:20:55 30 if you look at the tma renewed these two tenants in the last few years and most of the leaseholders doors are the originals which should also be smoke strike fire resistance resistant i will work with my colleague janice to give you the appropriate stay
00:21:06 janice to give you the appropriate stay put signage for the notice board and we will respond to the fire brigade too
00:21:13 is it right that you gave directions to simon connor about the staple policy only uh in reaction to ben dewis's message to you he looks that way on the documents is that correct
00:21:24 way on the documents is that correct yes yes now can we go to uh forward in time to tmo double zero eight six zero two two two please [Music]
00:21:38 this is another email exchange between you and janice ray uh dated 29th of april 2016 shortly before the second newsletter with fire safety advice was
00:21:49 newsletter with fire safety advice was prepared in may 2016 that we saw earlier on and if you look at the last line of that email under question two you see that you say they asked how we publicized our
00:22:02 you say they asked how we publicized our staple policy they bring the lfb i attached the relevant newsletter and i will put this in the may 2016 one again so it looks like the reference to the
00:22:15 so it looks like the reference to the fire safety arrangements at grenfell tower
00:22:19 tower went into the may 2016 regeneration newsletter again in reaction to or as a result of the lfb uh asking you how you publicized your statement policy
00:22:33 yes yes did you only include fire safety advice on evacuation procedures in the may 2016 newsletter following the lfb intervention
00:22:50 i'm i'm trying to remember i suspect it was a case that in the interim if you speak to people and there are people who are unclear i would have put it in a game so it
00:23:01 i would have put it in a game so it could be partially the lfb or partially from
00:23:05 from you know discussions with residents saying oh i didn't know about that okay it gets put in the newsletter again right see we've seen no fire safety advice in any of the regeneration newsletters between july
00:23:16 regeneration newsletters between july 2014 and may 2016. can you explain why that is um i would expect that the notices are up in the building
00:23:27 in the building um and the message has been put out there through the link magazine
00:23:34 magazine and through our contraction um other sort of uh meetings other drop-in meetings etc yes and would it be fair to say that fire safety advice was only given
00:23:45 fire safety advice was only given specifically to residents in the regeneration newsletters ad hoc sporadically and reactively to external prompts
00:23:55 yes
00:23:59 why was there no permanent strategy to keep residents regularly informed and updated about the evacuation procedures during the refurbishment
00:24:10 refurbishment as i've said that the emergency procedure stayed the same which was stay put um i i we took measures to
00:24:23 i i we took measures to um remind people of what the policy was we spoke to them we put it in the newsletter that that um
00:24:35 that that um was the way we demonstrated that we'd um told people about the state policy and then we'd informed them i i don't know what you'd expect us to put it in every newsletter that would be unusual and
00:24:46 newsletter that would be unusual and would take um emphasis of the other areas of information we wanted to get across to them you referred to link magazine earlier on just to be clear link magazine was a
00:24:57 just to be clear link magazine was a magazine that was sent to all tma residents across the borough wasn't it yes it's not wasn't grenfell specific oh no no it went to all residents yes um can we please look at your second
00:25:08 yes um can we please look at your second statement
00:25:09 statement tmo double zero eight four two three one two please at page 22.
00:25:17 and let's look together at paragraph 94 there
00:25:21 there you say there towards the top the top of the page
00:25:25 the page uh i i have been asked what language and special needs provision was in place for communicating fire safety advice to residents it was not my role to communicate fire safety advice to residents and i'm not
00:25:36 safety advice to residents and i'm not the best person to provide this information whose role was it to provide fire safety advice to residents during the refurbishment
00:25:49 the the fire safety advice to residents was given initially in their their um their handbook it would be given out by um my
00:26:02 it would be given out by um my colleague who managed health and safety and then
00:26:05 and then obviously i managed the regeneration contract
00:26:09 contract contract and that's why we put in our newsletter the fire safety advice that we did
00:26:18 yes i'm just trying to understand what you say in that second sentence in paragraph 94 where you say it wasn't your role to communicate fire safety advice to residents
00:26:26 residents and if it wasn't your role ms williams who's whose role was it the health and safety team would be advising across the organization on what the fire safety
00:26:37 the organization on what the fire safety advice was
00:26:41 i see and say within the building the fire safety advice did not change during the refurbishment is i mean given that we've seen and you've said that you had a role in devising or drafting uh
00:26:54 in devising or drafting uh those two sections of the regeneration newsletter july 14 and may 2016. and is it is in is it not in fact the case that you did
00:27:05 is it not in fact the case that you did have a role in communicating fire safety advice to residents at least to that extent um i had the means by which to communicate fire safety advice i wasn't the instigator of the fire
00:27:17 i wasn't the instigator of the fire safety advice and the fire safety device did not change so the newsletter i put out was an appropriate means of communication but to say i wasn't the instigator of
00:27:28 but to say i wasn't the instigator of that
00:27:29 that advice and um so i was the means by what it by which it was rolled out yes i see and let me just try a slightly different way you say here it wasn't your role to communicate fire safety advice to
00:27:41 communicate fire safety advice to residents
00:27:41 residents if it wasn't your role to do that can you explain well how can you reconcile that statement uh with your
00:27:48 your role in uh the appearance of fire safety advice
00:27:52 advice in the july 2014 and may 2016 newsletters yeah no i i i reiterate that the organization had a health and safety team who would roll out fire safety advice
00:28:04 roll out fire safety advice my newsletter was the means by which that was done if if the fire safety advice during the regeneration works had changed i would have obviously had to include that at very early days within
00:28:17 include that at very early days within any
00:28:18 any meetings or with any communication but the fire safety advice to residents during the works had not changed
00:28:28 now i want to ask you about your relationship with residents groups um sticking with this statement and the same page can we can you just go down to the next paragraph
00:28:39 paragraph uh you say i have been asked to detail the interaction i had with the grenfell compact
00:28:44 compact the tmo gave the compact recognition during the refurbishment with peter madison
00:28:49 madison and kieran singh attending their meetings i believe that the details of meetings
00:28:53 meetings would also be advertised in the refurbishment newsletter i did not attend
00:28:57 attend any of these meetings now it's right isn't it that the grenfell compact was only granted recognition in september 2015.
00:29:08 2015. um i i would have thought it was about that time if not a bit earlier yes and were you aware that it was granted recognition after something of a battle i i'm aware there was a
00:29:20 battle i i'm aware there was a lot of chewing and throwing yes right why did you not attend any of the meetings of the grenfell compact i believe the compact wanted to take
00:29:31 i believe the compact wanted to take things up to a higher level so they wanted to meet my director rather than myself what was the basis or source of that belief
00:29:42 belief i was never asked to attend and i i think quite early on they were clear that they wanted decision makers over things that weren't just the refurbishment it was more you know there are other areas to
00:29:55 more you know there are other areas to cover whereas obviously my role was specifically about the refurbishment did you yourself decide not to attend those meetings or were you directed not to do so i don't think they
00:30:06 directed not to do so i don't think they ever asked for me i don't think the compact themselves ever asked for me even if they didn't ask for you did it not occur to you at the time that you
00:30:17 not occur to you at the time that you ought to go uh if only to hear their concerns from the horse's mouth and be able to address to the extent that you could those concerns face to face
00:30:30 i was able to review the minutes that came out of those meetings and i was asked to deal with any issues that refurbishment related i i wasn't asked to attend and say
00:30:42 i i wasn't asked to attend and say obviously i had a keen interest but so it was done via debriefings with the minutes
00:30:51 minutes yes i i understand that i just want to see if i can get dig a little deeper you did it occur to you at the time that it would be a good idea for you to go along to the compact meetings
00:31:03 go along to the compact meetings see the individuals involved hear their concerns
00:31:06 concerns and be able to address those concerns face to face if you could i i wasn't asked and peter madison my director had a very good
00:31:17 director had a very good understanding on all the issues that would be raised and i would have just been an extra body so no i was quite happy to understand from peter madison what what had been asked what the issues
00:31:29 what what had been asked what the issues were
00:31:30 were and as i say they weren't all to do with the refurbishment there were other issues raised which um were taken up by him and kieran singers
00:31:39 singers managers yes you i mean i think is it fair to say that you were closer to the detail the day-to-day detail of the refurbishment that peter madison was yes yes i mean did he tell you not to
00:31:51 yes yes i mean did he tell you not to attend the meetings and that he would handle
00:31:53 handle those compact meetings even in respect of refurbishment questions
00:32:01 questions i i i i never saw anything to say that the compact wanted me there i think it was there for their forum it was their
00:32:11 was their option if they'd asked i would gladly have attended but i think as i say that they wanted to take it to a higher level with mr madison in attendance even if mr madison didn't have a firm
00:32:23 even if mr madison didn't have a firm grip
00:32:23 grip on the detail the day-to-day detail of the refurbishment i believe that many of the people there would have well i i know they did i
00:32:34 would have well i i know they did i believe that i know there was a list of issues raised which i then dealt with the minute they were presented to me so issues with the refurbishment were dealt
00:32:45 issues with the refurbishment were dealt with very promptly and they say the compact did not ask for me to be there can i ask you to look at your first witness statement again please
00:32:57 witness statement again please this time page 40 paragraph 220
00:33:04 you say at the top of the page there i had seen some blogs at some point and i decided that they were negative and vitriolic and that i would not look at them again those blogs were ultimately blocked
00:33:15 those blogs were ultimately blocked on our system so they could not be viewed
00:33:21 who was it at the tmo who decided to block the blogs on the tmos system i don't know do you remember when
00:33:33 i don't know do you remember when the blogs were blocked on the tma's system
00:33:36 system no i i was told that that was the case so i don't remember i'm afraid it would have been fairly early on 1314 i suspect right
00:33:51 1314 i suspect right even vaguely do you remember how far you were into the refurbishment project when the blogs were blocked no no i'm afraid i don't because we didn't look at them so i don't know
00:34:02 didn't look at them so i don't know okay now before you stop looking at them before you stop looking at them did you yourself consider that they raised criticisms or concerns that might have some
00:34:13 that might have some validity or at least be worth investigating
00:34:19 the early ones i looked at i i wasn't familiar with the subject matter it was about um i don't know was it about the
00:34:30 um i don't know was it about the libraries or the nursery there were issues which i wasn't familiar with so right so
00:34:38 just to put my question again those that you did see was there anything that you saw in there that you thought might have some validity or be worth
00:34:49 validity or be worth investigating and the only one i did see that i remember pertinent to the regeneration works was a comment saying when are they going
00:35:00 was a comment saying when are they going to start
00:35:01 to start they've told us they were going to start and they they haven't started yet why are the tmo not keeping to their timetable
00:35:08 timetable that was the only one i think that i remember that related to the regeneration works and did you investigate that question or suggest that it should be answered um
00:35:22 suggest that it should be answered um you that the style of the blog was um
00:35:27 rhetoric i i knew from where i was that obviously works were going to move forward and where we were in the programme so
00:35:39 in the programme so um i was i felt that we were responding to that blog by actually saying look this is what's happening to our program this is where we are so that was the only one that i saw that
00:35:51 so that was the only one that i saw that was anything to do with the work i was involved with did you actually take up the question when are these works going to start
00:36:03 uh and seek to address that question with
00:36:07 with any resident in the in the tower by the time i came on board we were actually
00:36:16 actually doing consultation with residents and following through the timetable that had been put in the the previous newsletters so the previous
00:36:27 the previous newsletters so the previous newsletters gave a start on site of early
00:36:30 early um 2014. so as far as i was concerned i was
00:36:34 was i was still on track for what had been rolled out earlier so no i didn't take it up with anybody in
00:36:41 in in the tower because we we were i think we were
00:36:44 we were a month or two late but the the earlier newsletters all said start on site early 14 which is what did happen
00:37:01 did you well when you say you decided that these are negative and vitriolic
00:37:08 vitriolic and you wouldn't look at them again what i mean leave aside the rhetoric um what was it about them
00:37:19 um what was it about them that you thought was negative and vitriolic
00:37:22 vitriolic um they were libelous they were clearly slanted
00:37:27 slanted and substantiated information that was you know that was probably the crux of it did you consider that the
00:37:38 crux of it did you consider that the blogs might be a way in which the residents or some of the residents of grenfell tower
00:37:46 sought to bring issues that affected them personally and their homes to the tma's attention
00:37:55 as a means of communication with the tmo it was not perhaps an appropriate media um
00:38:08 i i think the blocking of the blogs um meant that we didn't treat it as a an appropriate
00:38:20 we didn't treat it as a an appropriate communication i think there was concern over
00:38:27 how representative the blogs were and as i say a lot of time they were libelous unsubstantiated and clearly slanted there was never
00:38:38 and clearly slanted there was never any comment about the good work we were doing in terms of employment initiatives you know all the things we did with residents they were just overlooked it was sort of a
00:38:49 was sort of a slanted in one way and so it wasn't something we would look at as a communication to be responded to let me just show you one example uh
00:39:01 let me just show you one example uh of a blog to see if you can help with with it iws four zeros two two three zero please
00:39:14 four zeros two two three zero please now this uh has become known as the stairs of shame blog dated uh 13th of august 2014. i know that's about 11 months after you
00:39:26 i know that's about 11 months after you arrived
00:39:28 arrived at the tmo and you can see the photographs and particularly the middle photograph in the blog about what mr dufan
00:39:41 in the blog about what mr dufan described as the stares of shame and he gave some evidence about that last week just looking at it does this ring a bell with you is this one of those you looked at and and decided was
00:39:52 you looked at and and decided was negative and vitriolic or was i i i hadn't seen this at the time you didn't see this at the time all right so can we say with some some confidence that that
00:40:04 say with some some confidence that that august august 14 mid august 14 post date at the time that you stopped looking at the blog yes yes i wouldn't have seen this all right
00:40:19 did you yourself not consider that by deciding not to read the blogs you were essentially cutting yourself off from a source of information about the service that the tma was providing to the residents of grenfell
00:40:31 providing to the residents of grenfell tower
00:40:31 tower as its quotes customers on quotes
00:40:36 this was not a means of communication with the tmo as i said it was unsubstantiated information perhaps by a very limited
00:40:47 perhaps by a very limited um group of residents um and there were other ways of raising issues with us this the style of this the approach of this is not something
00:41:00 the approach of this is not something that would be um useful and most of us couldn't see it because it was blocked from the server so can i just ask you um you said in
00:41:11 so can i just ask you um you said in your statement that you regarded the blogs that you did see as being unhelpful and vitriolic in language and so on
00:41:18 so on um presumably someone told you that they were blocked or did you try and see later ones and found you couldn't get access to them i think yeah initially
00:41:30 i think yeah initially i i knew that they were there when i started my job um i did look and then after a time they were you couldn't find them at all they were cut off the server i think
00:41:44 it was um sorry i'll ask you a question again whether somebody told you and others that the blogs had been blocked or whether you just
00:41:55 been blocked or whether you just couldn't get access to them when you tried
00:41:59 tried i think i might have tried to get access to see
00:42:02 to see what the latest was and at that time i couldn't get it and at that point i was probably told that that's why all right and and i don't know whether you know who took the decision to block them
00:42:13 them no i don't
00:42:18 experience at the time were there other blogs or
00:42:21 blogs or groups of residents within the tmo estate more generally who were exhibiting the same level of dissatisfaction with the management of their building or was this limited to
00:42:34 their building or was this limited to the residents of grenfell tower
00:42:38 my involvement at the tmo was in managing this contract so i wouldn't know about tmo wide if that was your question um but in terms of grenfell this was the
00:42:50 um but in terms of grenfell this was the only blog i was aware of i see did anybody ever say to you oh well we don't worry about the grenfell action group we get these blogs all across the estate we get them all
00:43:01 all across the estate we get them all the time or did you get the impression that this was a one-off for that building only
00:43:09 i i think this was say in terms of my knowledge which is you know i was this the grenfell project was
00:43:17 was all i was involved with at the time um so this was the only one i was aware of but
00:43:23 but um nobody told me there were others
00:43:29 did you at any point ask yourself well how come
00:43:33 how come these residents of this building in particular feel so strongly about the way that their building is managed
00:43:46 i was speaking to lots of residents at the time
00:43:49 the time i was doing consultation with residents i know that this isn't the general feeling i've met many people people have disassociated from this particular group
00:44:03 from this particular group um so i know that this isn't the way that most residents think obviously this blog as i say i know i had seen some that covered the library or the nursery or something
00:44:15 the library or the nursery or something like that so i know that it wasn't just about the tower i know there are other issues covered in it let me ask the question slightly differently did you at any point ask yourself how come the residents responsible for
00:44:29 how come the residents responsible for this blog
00:44:30 this blog felt so strongly about the way that their building was managed did they they felt it necessary to articulate themselves in the way that one can see here
00:44:41 i i again believe from talking to people and being
00:44:47 and being you know out there on the streets and talking to different people i was dealing with a project at verity close initially which was new windows and i think one of the authors of this
00:44:59 and i think one of the authors of this live and verity closely moved and mr connor moved in 2014. so i i knew what people were thinking and that this was
00:45:10 and that this was not the way that people were thinking you know i was talking to people and asking people questions and as i say people would disassociate from the grenfell action
00:45:21 disassociate from the grenfell action group
00:45:22 group they would tell me specifically i i'm not part of that we do not think like that we think that you know what you're doing for this building is positive thank you so that that is why
00:45:33 positive thank you so that that is why just talking to people and it's knowing your residence that's why i think this isn't representative right did you ever ask anybody else at the tmo
00:45:44 the tmo the question why are these particular residents
00:45:49 residents uh who have published this blog so aggrieved
00:45:56 i don't know where to put it in this such straightforward terms but i think this blog had been going for a little while
00:46:04 while and so as far as i'm saying it covered other subjects i think there were other people who were um
00:46:11 um rbkc i believe were also um sort of mentioned um so no i i didn't ask in those specific
00:46:22 so no i i didn't ask in those specific questions why was it these residents but obviously
00:46:24 obviously i met mr defan um i know mr o'connor who was involved with this he moved to ireland early 2014 so i suspect his
00:46:35 ireland early 2014 so i suspect his input should have reduced um and so i i met many people to enough to know that this was not representative
00:46:48 you say not representative yeah was that so during the entire time that you were responsible for managing the refurbishment project um i i didn't look at it because
00:47:02 um i i didn't look at it because i i haven't seen all of the comments on it because i didn't look at it so i don't know about that i'm afraid did there ever come a time when you learned that what the those responsible for this blog
00:47:13 what the those responsible for this blog was saying mr dufan in particular uh that what he was saying was in fact representative of many people in the building
00:47:25 many people in the building i cannot say that i'm ever aware that anything mr defan said was representative of many people in the building right
00:47:36 when you arrived at the tmo in september 2013
00:47:40 2013 did anybody tell you whether david gibson or peter madison about the residence at grenfell tower
00:47:50 i i was given a briefing that um before i started there was a chat called paul duncan who'd been the main post holder then there was a gap
00:48:02 main post holder then there was a gap there's probably a three month gap with the temporary chap yes so he gave me a briefing and then um peter and david my managers would also give me a
00:48:14 my managers would also give me a briefing
00:48:15 briefing so i don't remember either of them i don't remember if they did it together or separately but i i got a lot of information over a period when i started and i was aware that there was an active
00:48:27 and i was aware that there was an active um resident in the building yes just one
00:48:35 just one no i think there was also a leaseholder group right
00:48:40 so what did they tell you about the residents their concerns the way they express their concerns the way they communicated with the tma
00:48:52 communicated with the tma um obviously it would have been said there was a blog but um i
00:49:00 but um i wasn't aware of a lot of the long-standing history perhaps which i i now am because
00:49:11 i now am because a lot of the information i could review was in the electronic directories in the files and there was clearly the the three month the temporary chap
00:49:22 month the temporary chap that was the files were very scant um paul duncan's information was generally good but
00:49:29 good but there were still gaps in that so yeah so i was getting to grips and i was briefed by peter and david more than anybody else
00:49:41 peter and david more than anybody else but i don't know that they briefed me on all the ins and outs of the issues prior to my arrival yes i see so just to be clear and correct me if this is wrong but they
00:49:52 and correct me if this is wrong but they never told you today about the history of the emb the estate management board i was aware that there were concerns over it but i didn't know anything more
00:50:03 over it but i didn't know anything more about their background what about the lancaster west residents association yeah no i think i think when we spoke last time about the lancaster west residents association i wasn't so clear on
00:50:13 on them so i i i i know there was a lancaster west residents association um because it's my understanding they took over from the emb effectively or
00:50:25 took over from the emb effectively or they had a a role um on influencing the estate decisions um but i say i didn't have any involvement with them
00:50:37 involvement with them when the scheme started because they didn't they weren't in place so i think they only came in place probably similar time to the compact i would think about the end of or uh yeah about the same time as the
00:50:49 or uh yeah about the same time as the compact
00:50:49 compact at the autumn did anybody give you a history of the grenfell action group ghe um
00:50:59 only in the terms the fact that it existed and mr defarm was probably the main
00:51:04 main mover what did they say about him i i don't remember it it was many years ago and i think it was you know the fact that i would
00:51:15 it was you know the fact that i would probably meet him very soon was probably the gist
00:51:17 the gist because um so as i was going out on the estate that i would be involved can we then look please at tm0100-7353
00:51:34 this is an email from peter madison to janice ray 4th september 2014 and peter madison says um as we discussed briefly i think mr
00:51:45 um as we discussed briefly i think mr defan's blog is scaremongering and could be quite frightening to residents i think we need to send out a very clear message to residents in a letter or newsletter about the current safety of the block and how we will maintain this over the
00:51:56 and how we will maintain this over the duration of the works it would be good to be able to put out a clear statement with the support of the fire brigade and we can see that you're you're copied into this he then goes on to say however before we do so i think
00:52:08 to say however before we do so i think we need to do a further belt and braces check on fire safety compliance in the block and stitch the fire brigade into this
00:52:15 into this do you remember what your response was to this this this email no did you in fact attempt to arrange putting a statement out with the support of the fire brigade
00:52:26 of the fire brigade um as i remember this was all about the same time
00:52:31 same time as the ben jewish email so i think so i have got the time skill right but this was again reiterating
00:52:44 right but this was again reiterating um the stay policy um peter perhaps wasn't as hands-on in terms of what we'd already done with the fire brigade and um also we heard carl stokes
00:52:55 and um also we heard carl stokes attending the block on a regular basis so i think that was what he was um asking us to do which i think we already had in hand yes did you in fact do a further belt
00:53:06 yes did you in fact do a further belt and braces check on fire safety compliance within grenfell tower i i believe that's why carl stokes was there on a very regular basis to he was off high
00:53:17 very regular basis to he was off high risk assessor and the idea was that obviously he um did supplementary checks to ryden's own checks in terms of their their work and any issues right
00:53:28 their work and any issues right so are you saying that the belt and braces check on fire safety compliance in grenfell tower was actually done by carl stokes as part of his fire risk assessment i i obviously haven't seen
00:53:41 assessment i i obviously haven't seen response but that is what i would expect it would be yes right i'm just asking you whether you remember whether there was in fact a further belt and braces check um i i think carl
00:53:55 i i think carl went there on a regular basis so i don't know if this coincided whether one of the checks or whether he did an additional one as a result of this can we go to tm00846106 please and look at
00:54:06 we go to tm00846106 please and look at page two
00:54:09 this is an email exchange between you and peter madison on the 13th of april 2015.
00:54:18 copy to david gibson uh and you say peter c
00:54:22 peter c please see the attached message from grenfell community unite sent easter monday i've sent a holding message and have touted around the proposed response as attached robert black walked by on friday and we
00:54:34 robert black walked by on friday and we discussed the fact that the preference was not to meet up with the grenfell community unite group which could be a showcase for mr defan
00:54:43 defan now this is uh april 2015. it it's right i think that by this time in fact the week before 6th of april 2015
00:54:53 2015 david collins had asked the tmo to recognize grenfell community unite as a residents association for grenfell tower do you remember that
00:55:04 i remember the correspondence i don't remember the date right do you know why robert black was concerned that the meeting would be quotes a showcase for mr defan
00:55:15 would be quotes a showcase for mr defan close quotes um it was my wording showcase i don't know that was robert black's wording i think what had happened previously
00:55:26 i think what had happened previously with meetings with mr defan in attendance was that
00:55:31 the agenda would be um disrupted by mr defaun um
00:55:42 by mr defaun um raising issues in a loud voice and effectively making a a
00:55:54 effectively making a a an organized meeting quite difficult to hold
00:55:58 hold um i think that that that's really the gist that we that there were still issues about um how mr defan
00:56:10 how mr defan was able to attend a meeting and behave so but i say the showcase word please don't attribute that to robert black because this is mine i see i was going to ask you um so the
00:56:23 i see i was going to ask you um so the words
00:56:24 words um well
00:56:27 um well when robert black walked by and you just you discussed the fact that the preference was not to meet up with the grenfell community united group was that his preference or was it your preference
00:56:38 preference or did you share that preference um i had no feelings particularly about the grenfell community unite if they were going to be a representative group then that would be
00:56:49 representative group then that would be great
00:56:49 great um when you said which should could be a showcase for mr farm were you adding those words because that was your impression or were you reciting something that you
00:57:01 or were you reciting something that you perceive robert black felt as well i i don't honestly remember i don't know if robert black had been to meetings with mr defaun i don't know i see going back to an earlier answer of
00:57:13 i see going back to an earlier answer of yours just just a moment ago you you referred to earlier meetings at which you said uh mr default was disruptive raising issues in a loud
00:57:24 was disruptive raising issues in a loud voice can you remember what were those previous meetings with mr dufan in attendance where you say mr defan disrupted the agenda uh
00:57:33 agenda uh the first meeting i went to the first meeting with residents was september 13 so literally probably a week after i'd arrived and it was peter madison was there
00:57:46 and it was peter madison was there myself
00:57:47 myself i think there were a couple of councillors and mr stefan arrived with a friend who um
00:57:57 the agenda was clearly laid out it had been publicized and mr defan quite early on chose to shout his opinions about
00:58:10 chose to shout his opinions about different issues he sidetracked the meeting
00:58:15 meeting he
00:58:18 effectively meant that other people were uncomfortable other residents were eye-rolling um and it meant that other residents
00:58:32 um and it meant that other residents couldn't hear the information which was being imparted they couldn't even um you know ask the questions they would normally do if it were in a um a proper meeting forum it it
00:58:47 um a proper meeting forum it it it was say upsetting because it meant other residents didn't hear what they'd come to hear couldn't understand what was being proposed because mr defan
00:58:58 proposed because mr defan just wanted to spoil it i attended other consultation i had other consultation meetings with mr defan
00:59:08 defan for example in the drop-in then the show flat
00:59:12 flat where again he would come in shout the odds make other people leave the room the flat had several bedrooms
00:59:23 bedrooms and a living room people would walk out of the room so again that meant that they didn't hear what we were there to present um so sorry
00:59:34 um so sorry it's it was you needed to manage mr defan so that residents could get information and that was what was difficult did
00:59:45 and that was what was difficult did anybody
00:59:46 anybody to your knowledge including you actually
00:59:51 tried to talk to mr dufan to get to the bottom of what his concerns really were
01:00:02 so i i was probably you know the third or fourth person on the scheme and obviously i had directors as well um so during my time there the only time i
01:00:13 so during my time there the only time i felt that we ever contacted and got through to mr defan was we had a meeting about the heating in the show flat we showed what the new setup would be with the radiators with
01:00:24 setup would be with the radiators with the
01:00:25 the boiler and we had our consultants there because obviously the m e stuff is really complicated and you do need to understand enough about it and the system is different and i think
01:00:36 different and i think what a lot of the work in the town was different
01:00:40 different and that was you know people had lived there for 10 20 years so any change means you need to talk people through it and so
01:00:48 and so he was there again very been very difficult
01:00:51 difficult you know lots of residents there all trying to understand something and so the m e consultant who was a chap took him to one side and he must have spent
01:01:02 spent oh half hour with him and at the end mr defan as he walked by me said that's the best information i've ever got out of a team though and that was because he listened um
01:01:13 and that was because he listened um and i did follow it up with an email because it was the first time i've ever heard mr tufan say anything positive and i said thank you for saying that you understood this and that you know this was a useful meeting for
01:01:24 you know this was a useful meeting for you yes i see but i say it's only because the m e consultant they were sorry i don't know how many people are 30 give or take spent a half hour with mr tafan to talk
01:01:35 spent a half hour with mr tafan to talk him through everything right i mean that's an insight did you learn something from that experience that that might be the best way to
01:01:48 that that might be the best way to address cater for cooperate with mr defan
01:01:53 defan in order to uh assist him with his concerns so to take the emini example
01:02:04 so to take the emini example that that might be the best way of actually as you put it managing mr dufan um yes but bear in mind he's one household there are 120 households
01:02:15 one household there are 120 households there
01:02:17 there um but also he he had he was able to or would shift the goal post slightly
01:02:25 slightly so for example with the windows we had a meeting with the windows going the show flat this is how you open them they were they had two mechanisms they had a casement um operation then they had a
01:02:37 casement um operation then they had a chilton turn so that you could clean them so we showed people how these worked and again you know people had only before had sliding single glazed aluminium windows so
01:02:47 so you know all different this is our chance to roll out to people you know we stood there and showed them how to open the windows they later on at a handbook and again we did it again but um so he saw the windows we had
01:02:59 but um so he saw the windows we had really positive feedback from that window
01:03:01 window session there wasn't one person who said these windows are you know not what we wanted because obviously we'd consulted with them sort of a year previously um but then i think probably about this
01:03:15 but then i think probably about this time april 15 mr defan says he doesn't want his windows in unless we acknowledge grenfell community unite he's on the 16th floor in a building where you've got mass climbers
01:03:27 where you've got mass climbers to access the building so you know he'd always move the goal post slightly so it was quite hard to um deal with his different concerns i think
01:03:39 think one of my issues is that he would never engage with me i think um he would if he saw me i i would have longed for him to say good morning you wouldn't do that he
01:03:51 good morning you wouldn't do that he would walk by saying oh the tmo rubbish this place he was you know he would walk by like that and
01:04:02 you know he would walk by like that and i think
01:04:03 i think at one point simon o'connor was with me when he did that and simon i kind of ride and said do you know how aggressive that sounded and he took him to task but nobody else did
01:04:13 did did you ever have any training or ask for any training from those who were supervising you about
01:04:24 supervising you about how about conflict uh resolution or resident engagement to deal with not just the the way in which
01:04:35 with not just the the way in which what what it was that mr dufan was saying but the way in which he was saying it
01:04:39 saying it did you ever receive any training or guidance yes i have had conflict resolution training i've done quite a lot of resident engagement my previous role which probably their nearly five years
01:04:50 which probably their nearly five years was dealing with um regeneration of a 60s estate which meant
01:04:55 meant dealing with i think i doubt residents say
01:04:58 say 15 blocks and also where leaseholders were paying for their work so very difficult
01:05:03 difficult resident engagement because people were paying and you know that always means they're more likely to engage um so i have done that before but i think
01:05:14 so i have done that before but i think mr defan
01:05:18 did need more attention i think that you know
01:05:21 know i i don't know how you would deal with somebody who clearly for a long time there were issues that he felt needed to be raised and so it's not as though it was just with the
01:05:33 it's not as though it was just with the refurbishment i think you know it was with rbkc he had issues it was with the tmo it was something that was perhaps too
01:05:44 it was something that was perhaps too big to manage but for me because my role was to deal with 120 households not one household did you go to anybody more senior to you in the tmo
01:05:55 in the tmo and ask for assistance
01:06:00 in dealing with the matters that mr dufan was raising and the way in which he was raising them um you appreciate if mr default put in
01:06:11 um you appreciate if mr default put in complaints or anything like that to us we would read them very carefully and coordinate them i think peter madison became the
01:06:22 peter madison became the a person to coordinate responses from him because he would quite often go to different people to
01:06:28 people to ask the same question but i think it's it's not just a question of me and how i manage resident engagement it's also an issue of mr defaunt and how he perceived
01:06:43 mr defaunt and how he perceived his landlord um so i think even if i had had advice on a one-to-one basis i think it would still have been a mountain to climb
01:06:55 still have been a mountain to climb um so i dealt with many other residents and i i've never had any issues of the scale that mr default presented i'm afraid you see he would say and we've heard his
01:07:06 you see he would say and we've heard his evidence and i'm summarizing it probably unfairly and inaccurately i hope not but i may be there's a risk of that he would say that he had to resort to this kind of
01:07:17 this kind of method of communication because the tmo had
01:07:20 had routinely ignored belittled and marginalized him and all the other residents as far as he could see in the building what would you say to that
01:07:31 i would say that mr defan had issues before we even started on site because i think the previous blogs were about the calc
01:07:43 the previous blogs were about the calc weren't they the early ones that i saw so i think he'd had issues for a long time and i think the way they manifested themselves in terms of the blog and the way he dealt with us
01:07:56 wasn't conducive to
01:08:01 building a relationship i think his preference was for an adversarial stance rather than for a negotiation and i think that's why when david
01:08:12 and i think that's why when david collins came on board into the block who um i know has been here
01:08:19 here david collins style of dialogue was more approachable which is why i think more people then joined the compact prior to that it had been mr defilen a
01:08:30 prior to that it had been mr defilen a small group of his friends but when mr collins sort of came on the scene he was more approachable and that expanded the membership of it
01:08:44 it's very difficult but say i i've dealt with many other people in terms of this building and i know that mr dufan isn't representative and i hope that people felt that i dealt
01:08:56 and i hope that people felt that i dealt with them fairly and appropriately in my role so your recollection is to be blunt that mr default was an outlier
01:09:06 outlier and that the majority of people in the building didn't feel the way he felt is that your recollection yeah so people did have issues but not on the same
01:09:17 did have issues but not on the same scale or took the same stance as mr tiffany right
01:09:24 now going back to this email
01:09:28 there was a discussion with you and mr black about whether the tmo should meet grenfell community unite
01:09:38 what did you decide that you shouldn't meet them
01:09:42 meet them um it was me passing the message on i didn't make the decision how was not meeting grenfell community unite
01:09:51 unite ever going to be constructive
01:09:58 we were already talking to the residents on a one-to-one basis and getting um a lot more feedback perhaps but i think the grenfell community unite
01:10:09 grenfell community unite as i say i don't think it was just issues about the refurbishment it was about other areas that mr defan and the group wanted to discuss can we look at peter peter madison's
01:10:21 can we look at peter peter madison's response
01:10:22 response to you of the same day 13th of april 2015 at page one please uh and
01:10:32 uh and you you've sent him a draft of something uh and
01:10:36 uh and uh he uh
01:10:39 uh he uh uh says to you in paragraph two as one of his main comments some redrafting of the following parrot is needed see highlighted section and then i'll read this to you in your email you asked whether the tma
01:10:50 in your email you asked whether the tma would acknowledge the grenfell community unite group as a representative voice of leaseholders and tenants i'm advised that this
01:10:58 that this group will not be recognized by the tmo as there is a residence association already in existence the tmo are currently working with the existing lancaster west residents association and are currently making
01:11:09 association and are currently making arrangements with them to hold an agm mr default will have historic communication from the tmo dating back to early 2014 relating to forming an alternative residence group
01:11:21 forming an alternative residence group now it's right isn't it that lancaster west residents association wasn't actually functioning before the agm was it was true yes what arrangements were the
01:11:32 was true yes what arrangements were the tmo
01:11:33 tmo in fact making for the lancaster west residents association to hold an agm uh this it was being managed by our resident engagement
01:11:44 resident engagement team so i i'm not i wasn't involved with what they were doing in terms of the agm so you don't know no right
01:11:53 right do you know how grenfell tower residents could raise their concerns through the lancaster west residents association at the time
01:12:01 the time april 15.
01:12:06 um as the lancaster west residents association wasn't in being um i would expect any of their concerns if they're about the refurbishment to go to ryden if they're about their housing to go to the housing office at the base of the town
01:12:18 housing office at the base of the town or 100 yards from the base of the tower you know they had direct communication with us that the lancaster west residents association would probably have a a wider overview of the estate
01:12:30 a wider overview of the estate and what was happening but to say there was already access to the tmo via um the local housing office right now you refer to historic communications with edward dufan were
01:12:41 communications with edward dufan were you aware that janet edwards had actually told edward defarn in september 2014 so six or seven months before this that the tmo did not object to residents forming a grenfell tower
01:12:54 to residents forming a grenfell tower improvement works residence group as well as working with the lancaster west residents association
01:13:02 um i with this document it looks to me as though i
01:13:09 though i started it and then peter added things in
01:13:12 in so um it might not all have been my wording some of this
01:13:18 i don't think i knew about janet edwards communication at the time do you know why the tmo initially refused to recognize
01:13:29 refused to recognize this residence group
01:13:34 um you've referred to janet edwards previous communication it says they will not be recognised as there's already a residence association in existence that's i'm sorry i only
01:13:47 in existence that's i'm sorry i only know
01:13:47 know what's here right so you don't you don't have any knowledge of the history of this is that right um no i don't do you agree that before the grenfell compact was recognized
01:13:58 the grenfell compact was recognized uh as it was eventually in july 2015 uh after residents had invited um victoria borick the mp to intervene
01:14:12 before that the only way that residents could raise concerns with the tma was on an individual basis
01:14:19 um well the emb predated the lancaster west residents association didn't it
01:14:25 didn't it so previously presumably if there was an estate problem whether it was um dumping or anti-social behaviour they would have again on immediate things you'd expect them to report direct to their tmo
01:14:37 report direct to their tmo the any of these residents association will probably be more overriding across estate issues otherwise we were there doing a day-to-day job and you would
01:14:47 would talk to us straight away rather than go to a residence association right what was your experience of the emb by and indeed before april 15 being an effective
01:14:58 effective conduit for grenfell tower residents to raise their concerns and worries with the tmo i think the emb when i started was winding down i
01:15:09 when i started was winding down i suspect
01:15:10 suspect they weren't meeting as often i i don't know whether the residents of grenfell belong to the how many residents of grenfell belong to the enb
01:15:19 the enb so yeah i'm sorry to no that's dance around it but i don't actually know how many of the grenfell residents were involved the emb prior to the work so i don't know how many um
01:15:32 the work so i don't know how many um you know but say we were always there the office was originally in the base of the tower then it moved 100 yards away so given that the emb was in a state of being wound down in september 13 when
01:15:43 being wound down in september 13 when you joined the tmo is it right that between
01:15:46 between that time late 2013 and the spring of 2015
01:15:52 2015 indeed summer of 2015 and the recognition of the grenfell compact the only way that residents could raise their concerns and worries about the refurbishment with you was on an individual basis [Music]
01:16:04 [Music] yes which people did yes yes there was no collective voice no but bear in mind there's 120 households with disparate issues or disparate concerns
01:16:17 disparate issues or disparate concerns so um but they weren't all desperate were they there were some common issues there were some common issues but people would also raise them individually which became a pattern
01:16:28 became a pattern so um was there a reluctance so far as you could perceive it in the tmo
01:16:35 tmo come the spring of 2015 to allowing the grenfell
01:16:39 grenfell residents to express themselves collectively so as to make a louder larger voice no i don't think there was i think what
01:16:50 i don't think there was i think what what you would want is it for it to be a representative group and i think um say with david collins being there that meant that more people were
01:17:01 that meant that more people were attracted to the group and that their numbers increased and that would make it more so being representative would be a more useful body
01:17:13 i see mr chairman uh is that a convenient moment i've come to a reasonably natural break yes what if it suits you i'm sure it would be a good point thank you well as you know miss williams we have a
01:17:25 well as you know miss williams we have a break during the morning we'll take it now um we'll come back at 25 to 12
01:17:30 25 to 12 please and uh as with everyone else i have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it during the breaks all right
01:17:39 right thank you very much you gave the usher please
01:17:54 right 25 to 12 please
01:37:18 yes would you ask ms williams to come back in please
01:37:38 robust williams ready to carry on yes thank you yes mr millet ms williams i just want to uh go back to the blog question very briefly if i
01:37:49 to the blog question very briefly if i may
01:37:50 may can the witness please be shown rbk50857 at page seven
01:38:05 now this is the end of a report update by you
01:38:10 by you if you look at the bottom of the page there date 19th of august 2014 and if you look at the top of the screen uh you see that it says
01:38:23 uh you see that it says and if we can just scroll up just a tiny bit more yes thank you under complaints paragraph five the grenfell action group blog continues with negative comment there has been a
01:38:34 with negative comment there has been a complaint from a resident in the adjacent finger blocks about ramp removal
01:38:38 removal received in jan 14 before ryden appointed
01:38:41 appointed which has been taken up by councillor blackman and is being dealt with by clearancing stroke peter madison now that was written by you looking at that
01:38:51 that does that trigger a recollection about whether in fact you did see the stairs of shame blog on the 19th of august
01:39:01 the second paragraph there refers to an external ramp which had i think eight steps in it which was an alternative access
01:39:13 which was an alternative access from the walkway down to the street level so it's not the stairs that you showed me previously it's a different item what was the reference then to the grenfell action group blog
01:39:25 the grenfell action group blog continuing with negative comment what was that
01:39:27 was that um i suspect that peter madison had brought to my attention he he would intermittently look at it he would have brought to my attention something but i i don't remember what it
01:39:39 something but i i don't remember what it was but i
01:39:40 was but i i wouldn't be looking at this are you sure you hadn't read the blog on that day and as a result of that put that into this
01:39:46 into this this message with this report no i suspect i would have had something pointed out to me and as i was doing this report i thought well i would put this in because there was a you know
01:39:58 put this in because there was a you know it comes down to the complaints right area so i don't know what it was and i'd say it would have been on somebody else's screen right the date of the stairs of shane blog is the 13th of august and the date
01:40:09 blog is the 13th of august and the date of this is the 19th of august does that help you
01:40:12 help you as i say they're two totally different staircases there is no connection between this comment here and the blog photo there was another staircase
01:40:21 staircase right so although um the blog was blocked on the system it does seem that peter madison at least could have access to them from time to time and then would relay what he'd seen to you is that
01:40:33 relay what he'd seen to you is that is that right i think you could ask to have it reinstated right but so i yeah so peter madison may dip into it
01:40:44 yeah so peter madison may dip into it but
01:40:45 but i say i don't i don't know how often he looked but i say i think he had it on his system if he wanted to look do you actually remember peter madison telling you the gag blog is continuing
01:40:56 telling you the gag blog is continuing with negative comment um
01:41:02 i think we were i was aware anyway because i know councillor blakeman would quite often refer to it so i i knew it was still going on but i say
01:41:12 say i i don't remember what this particular one is about but i do know so that it you could ask to have um the block removed from your pc and i
01:41:23 the block removed from your pc and i i know peter did now i'd like to turn to the topic of complaints policy uh in your first witness statement if we can go to that please
01:41:34 can go to that please you say it paragraph 132 on page 24 page 24 paragraph 132 under the heading defecting reporting
01:41:45 under the heading defecting reporting straight complaints you say all complaints and issues raised by residents on works were initially directed to ryden's rlas for progression within ryden whilst they were on site i would then
01:41:56 whilst they were on site i would then take up any matter that could not be straightforwardly resolved what kind of matters would not be straightforwardly resolved as you put it it could be that say ryden had been working on
01:42:09 that say ryden had been working on an area let say you know a duct in the hallway
01:42:14 hallway and then um the resident would say to them look you know that's chipped and they would say well that's not our work so then they it would still be the resident would still perceive it as perhaps ryden's
01:42:25 still perceive it as perhaps ryden's work
01:42:26 work so i would come in then and say no that's something the tmo need to deal with
01:42:30 with i see now can we go to your second statement please page 19
01:42:36 tm00842312 page 19 paragraph 81 and you say there it's important to distinguish between complaints made by residents concerns raised by residents and queries raised
01:42:47 raised by residents and queries raised by residents the majority of communications i had with residents throughout the refurbishment project were not responding to complaints but rather addressing queries from residents to do with the works
01:42:58 residents to do with the works undertaken in their individual properties and then you go on how did you yourself define a complaint
01:43:10 how did you yourself define a complaint a complaint i would say would be something that was
01:43:19 could be
01:43:23 multifaceted it could be um serious and sort of organizational um
01:43:36 sort of organizational um it could be something that couldn't be resolved
01:43:40 resolved quickly and straightforwardly
01:43:44 and how would you define a concern a concern would be ryden didn't turn up where are they
01:43:54 why is that not a complaint um because it could be that ryden their workers tended to work in pairs and it could be they'd been longer at mrs smith's so they didn't get to
01:44:07 mrs smith's so they didn't get to this residence at the allocated time purely because they were held up in another property so find out where they are sorry they've been delayed they've had problems at mrs
01:44:18 been delayed they've had problems at mrs smith's
01:44:19 smith's they'll be with you in 10 minutes and what's uh what how did you define a query
01:44:24 query um query b um
01:44:30 why are you doing it like this or um about
01:44:34 about perhaps the process rather than um anything else yeah so it could be anything i you know you obviously there's a bit of common sense here so a query could be
01:44:46 common sense here so a query could be um you know why are you doing works in number six and not in my flat or something like that it could be just a straightforward question just about the process and what would be the distinction
01:44:57 and what would be the distinction between a concern raised by a resident and a query raised by a resident
01:45:04 um
01:45:08 negligible i suspect if i put just one word i should have said concerned stroke queries it's a terminology issue
01:45:18 but i appreciate while you're working in people's homes over a period of two years we saw a gamut of everything yes indeed and i'm i'm bound to suggest to you that the distinctions between a
01:45:30 to you that the distinctions between a complaint
01:45:31 complaint and a concern and a query are themselves negligible or at least easily blurred um as i say i think the complaints tend i would think if they were
01:45:42 i would think if they were saying multifaceted can't be dealt with easily
01:45:45 easily or if they were more serious and organizational would be my own distinction i'm obviously not got the tmo policy in front of me this is my own take on it but concerns or queries you
01:45:58 take on it but concerns or queries you know again they could be something i followed up in writing if they were if it was say a query about the process i i might having taught the resident through it face to face i might then put it in
01:46:10 face to face i might then put it in writing just to make sure they had something to refer to in case um one of their friends asked the question so um yeah so either of those even though i might have dealt with them face to face i could have followed up in
01:46:22 face to face i could have followed up in writing
01:46:23 writing email whatever um did you report on concerns uh and uh queries within the tmo
01:46:36 no um we didn't um i would if something had if a resident had a concern and then it
01:46:47 if a resident had a concern and then it proliferated if it didn't resolve i perhaps would have escalated it but i i can't think of anything that would come into that category and something that you saw as a
01:46:59 and something that you saw as a complaint as you define it did you record that um
01:47:07 if there'd been anything that had come to my attention as a complaint or come to housing management's or ryden's i would have recorded it yes right
01:47:17 right and where would you have recorded it um
01:47:21 i would have used the one of the systems called crm customer relationship manager
01:47:28 manager right which was one of the newer systems the tmo had it was one of the most user-friendly it had all the repairs on and it was easiest for everyone to use and there was
01:47:40 and there was pop-ups there was prompts on it so for example
01:47:44 example you know if people had mobility issues couldn't get to the doorbell in five minutes there'd be a little note on crm saying allow time for resident to get to the door right so it was a real crm was the most
01:47:57 right so it was a real crm was the most user-friendly system the tiana had to record complain and say complaints was a pop-up as well i see but is it right that that would require you and others at the tmo to exercise a judgment
01:48:09 judgment uh about whether what you were being told was a complaint which would then have to be recorded in the way you've described or was a concern or query which would
01:48:20 or was a concern or query which would not
01:48:21 not no as i've said if a concern or query continued i then would have treated it as a complaint right can we look at the complaints policy you've referred to
01:48:32 policy you've referred to that's at tm00879692
01:48:39 and what i'm going to show you is the version of the complaints policy at the time of the fire uh and you can see that on page one it's dated the 30th of july 2015 and agreed by the tma board in
01:48:51 july 2015 and agreed by the tma board in the september of that year uh and was reviewed or to be reviewed in july 2018
01:48:59 july 2018 in fact do you remember that when you arrived at the tmo you were provided with the tma complaints policy dated may 2010
01:49:08 i was provided with a big um folder and i suspect that would have been in it did you read it um i i if it was in there i would have read it at the time yes
01:49:18 yes let's just let let's read it into the record but also just quickly look at it tmo double zero eight three one three nine nine please let's just pop that up
01:49:30 um and that there there is the first page of it can we look at the second page of it um an introduction and this is may 2010 as you can see paragraph 1.1 all of our residents and
01:49:42 paragraph 1.1 all of our residents and customers that use our services have a right to expect a good service from the kensington and chelsea tenant management organization and to have things put right when they go wrong that's just the first sentence but do you remember reading this when you
01:49:53 you remember reading this when you first joined the tmo in september 2013.
01:49:58 i don't remember explicitly when i joined in september 13 no but if it was in the booklet if it was in the pack i had i would have read it right and i'd like to use if i can the version
01:50:09 to use if i can the version that was uh revised in the summer of 2015
01:50:14 2015 if we can just go back to that that's the previous document tmo double zero eight seven nine six nine two please
01:50:25 eight seven nine six nine two please and if we can go to page
01:50:29 two first of all um there you see again paragraph 1.1 just looking at it and were you familiar with the complaints policy from 2013 and
01:50:42 policy from 2013 and and from with this document which is a revised version of it from the summer of 2015.
01:50:48 2015. i was aware that there was a policy yes were you familiar with it um probably i was when it first came out but then
01:50:57 but then perhaps i'd need to be refreshed on it well did you ever read it i would have read it when it first came out i think it was rolled out i think
01:51:05 i think there was work done with each team on it
01:51:10 well when the 2015 version was rolled out in september of 2015 did you read it yes right can we go to page three please
01:51:23 now here we can see uh that there is a heading inquiry or complaint uh and under 3.1 an inquiry a service request is defined as quotes a first-time request for information advice or for an action to
01:51:35 information advice or for an action to be undertaken eg estate cleaning not undertaken estate lighting not working or a repair request a complaint may arise as a result of a service request not being actioned
01:51:46 service request not being actioned 3.2 a complaint a service failure is defined as an expression of dissatisfaction about a kctmo service or a service provided by a kc tmo contractor
01:51:57 contractor not resolved immediately to the customers satisfaction about the level quality or nature of a service which the customer feels should have been provided and then under 3.3 there's a
01:52:08 provided and then under 3.3 there's a long
01:52:08 long or long-ish list of com of the potential topics of complaint and uh you can see what those are i won't read them all out to you but the
01:52:20 i won't read them all out to you but the last two
01:52:21 last two rude unhelpful or inappropriate behavior by staff poor communication um were you familiar with the different definitions
01:52:34 the different definitions and and categorizations as between inquiry on the one hand and complaint on the other i think when i gave my understanding it does align with this but were you
01:52:45 it does align with this but were you familiar with that distinction um i i did say that if it proliferated i would
01:52:52 would escalate it so yeah i'm saying i did understand this even though i've perhaps not phrased it the same way as this my understanding was this when you were responding to complaints properly so called in other words
01:53:04 properly so called in other words falling within this definition did you use
01:53:07 use this policy um yes she would read this you say yes you would read this but you did you personally follow the guidance in this policy when
01:53:20 follow the guidance in this policy when entertaining complaints yes you did
01:53:25 can we go to page 11 please in this document and look at paragraph 4.1 time limit for making a complaint
01:53:39 uh and there there's the time limit set out
01:53:42 out uh and then we need to scroll down a bit uh yes absolutely there's the time limit then it's a 12 month time limit
01:53:55 then it's a 12 month time limit uh uh well i'm trying i'm sorry i'm actually looking at the wrong screen can we go to page 11 please we haven't moved on i don't think
01:54:14 there is a there is a 12 months time to be referred to in paragraph 4.1 which we now have on the screen yeah can we go to page eight please
01:54:26 uh and paragraph 17
01:54:34 monitoring and review and over the page at 9 17.1
01:54:38 at 9 17.1 performance on complaints against agreed targets and trends will be reported to the operations committee and the tmo board the board performance information will also be available on our website and through our link resident magazine
01:54:51 resident magazine did you play any part yourself in reporting
01:54:55 reporting targets and trends to the operations committee or performance against those targets and trends no that would probably be the complaints team who led on that right
01:55:08 uh can we please go to tmo10040839
01:55:16 please
01:55:20 now this is
01:55:25 wait for it to come up yes we have it mr miller yes uh
01:55:49 yes i think i've got a wrong reference and i'm going to come back to that later on
01:55:52 on um do you remember
01:55:56 whether there was any oversight of managers
01:55:59 managers investigations into complaints generally
01:56:06 the complaints team themselves would pick up from crm what the issues were
01:56:17 what the issues were then i believe they would take it to managers
01:56:20 managers if there was any shortfall in performance if targets weren't being met or if they felt
01:56:28 felt that the complaint responses were inadequate
01:56:36 but so they would take that up with the managers of each department and do you remember the guidance which told you that if you received what you thought was a complaint then you were responsible for forwarding
01:56:49 then you were responsible for forwarding that on promptly to the complaints team either by telephone or by email yes they they they monitored the system so unless they had the full information they couldn't do it so right
01:57:00 information they couldn't do it so right now can i ask you about some specific complaints um when you came to give evidence in module one uh last year on the 20th of october last year you were asked about david collins's email of the 6th
01:57:12 about david collins's email of the 6th of april 2015. uh i'm going to show you that email and at the same time have the transcript off if we can the email is
01:57:23 one tm00846105 four
01:57:38 one tm00846105 four uh and uh at the same time if we can please have up the transcript for day 56 of page 166.
01:57:55 i i'll show you the um the email first and then show you the transcript um you may remember being shamed this last time but um in the second paragraph of mr collins's email to you of the 6th
01:58:06 of mr collins's email to you of the 6th of april he says as you know on the 17th march 2015 upwards of 100 residents gathered in our community rooms to attend an emergency meeting to discuss our communities concerns regarding the grenfell tower improvement works
01:58:17 grenfell tower improvement works details of the meeting and outcomes can be found summarized below and then um two paragraphs down there's a heading problems with the works and then a list of bullet points
01:58:29 works and then a list of bullet points uh and if you just take a second to look at those bullet points there
01:58:58 and then if we look across once you've read those bullet points to the right-hand side of the screen and at line
01:59:06 line three i asked you about this list and
01:59:13 list and you are asked the question at line six looking at that is it right that you were aware when you received this email at the very least about complaints and concerns about the quality of work being
01:59:24 concerns about the quality of work being conducted by ryden and your answer at line 10 you said i know that this was really useful to get an understanding of residents views i'm aware that in relation to that first point about appalling standard of work
01:59:35 appalling standard of work undertaken by ryden in communal areas a photograph had been taken of works in progress
01:59:40 progress i.e not the finished work so that was something that we were able to deal with
01:59:47 now you said at the time that david collins's concerns about standards of work
01:59:51 work was a specific incident where work had not been completed
01:59:56 uh
02:00:00 in fact it's right isn't it that on the 6th of january 2016 so some nine months later do you remember
02:00:08 remember that the grenfell tower residents petitioned the rbkc housing and property scrutiny committee
02:00:19 i was aware they put in a petition yes and do you remember that they were seeking an independent investigation of the regeneration works um yes
02:00:33 now i don't know were you present on the 6th of january 2016 at a meeting at which
02:00:44 at a meeting at which uh edward defan spoke or addressed spoke to or addressed the committee no you weren't yeah there is a written version of the speech and i just want to ask you about
02:00:55 speech and i just want to ask you about that
02:00:56 that can you go please to tm00831064
02:01:16 now this is entitled resident speech to scrutiny committee 6th january 2016 and it starts thank you for allowing the residents of grenfell tower the opportunity to inform the scrutiny
02:01:27 opportunity to inform the scrutiny committee
02:01:28 committee of the ill treatment incompetence and plane abuse that we have experienced at the hands of the tmo during the grenfell tower improvement works now and if you just cast your eye down
02:01:39 now and if you just cast your eye down that screen and then lower down the page if we could just have that scroll down please a bit further so we can see the title of the next part lack of consultation straight resident
02:01:50 lack of consultation straight resident engagement my first question is have you ever seen this document before yes did you see it at the time uh january 2016
02:02:02 i don't think so i don't think i saw it for a month or two after that right so you did see it you do you think in the february or march of 26. i didn't see it immediately no but not long afterwards
02:02:14 long afterwards i see let me just show you one part of it page three please
02:02:22 uh and it's it's under the heading poor workmanship and site management and i'll just read you two paragraphs um the first two the grenfell tower ra is calling for an independent investigation
02:02:33 calling for an independent investigation into the awful quality of individual works and the general poor management of the improvement works project there are far too many examples of poor quality works and poor site management to list to you individually but some
02:02:44 to list to you individually but some examples include a number of residents who were left without any hot water for months on end a vulnerable disabled non-english speaking woman being denied a toilet in her own home for three days and being forced to walk to her friends
02:02:55 and being forced to walk to her friends in shepherds bush in order to take a shower
02:02:57 shower for three months other examples of poor workmanship and site management include the shoddy design of the communal hallway cupboards the lack of care and concern by a number of contractors to deliver a proper job
02:03:08 contractors to deliver a proper job inside residents homes heating pipes being laid across residents carpets existing decorations inside
02:03:13 inside residents properties destroyed and little effort from the tma to make make good any of the damage they've caused as a result of removing radiators and even one example of workman using a pet
02:03:24 even one example of workman using a pet dog's
02:03:24 dog's water bowl belonging to a resident as a vessel to drain a toilet system were you yourself made aware of these concerns raised by residents
02:03:38 or a resident to the housing and property scrutiny committee at the time
02:03:46 um in the first paragraph it talks too many examples poor quality works so um i don't know what that means it's it's not specific um
02:03:58 that means it's it's not specific um i don't know about a number of residents who are left without any hot water for months on end that they would have been screaming and i i'm not aware of anybody in that situation
02:04:09 situation um i don't know about the vulnerable disabled non-english speaking women being denied a toilet i don't know about that though i would deny the shoddy design of
02:04:21 though i would deny the shoddy design of the communal hallway cupboards i would also deny the lack of care concerned by a number of contractors i don't know anything about heating
02:04:32 i don't know anything about heating pipes being laid across residents carpets existing decorations in residence properties destroyed i think there were one or two cases where ryden went back and dealt with issues
02:04:45 ryden went back and dealt with issues that were decorative possibly when the radiators went in
02:04:51 and i know about the workman who used the pets
02:04:55 the pets water bowl and in fact that workman not only was went back to apologize to that resident but also i believe they paid him for a new
02:05:06 paid him for a new dog bomb so i'm aware of some specific incidents but the generalized ones i do not know about right after you saw this list or these two paragraphs in the
02:05:18 this list or these two paragraphs in the month or two after the speech did you yourself investigate what is said here um we had asked through the compact i think them to be
02:05:31 through the compact i think them to be specific
02:05:32 specific about where the complaints were coming from so that we could deal with them as you appreciate generalized comments you cannot deal with you know we would i would love to be knocking on doors and saying look i've
02:05:43 knocking on doors and saying look i've heard you've got a problem let me help you this does not give us the meat to do that but i say the compact were asked when they first brought up the generalized comments to come back to
02:05:54 the generalized comments to come back to us with specific issues because also we need to know about these things straight away so we can deal with them
02:06:02 them talking of knocking on doors i think it's right isn't it that the tml actually
02:06:05 actually carried out a door knocking survey in december 2015 and spoke to 77 of the 120 households about the works is that is that correct
02:06:17 about the works is that is that correct yes
02:06:21 can i just show you the document this
02:06:24 tm00831064 and i'll just show you parts of this look at look at page one to start with tmo double zero eight three one zero six four
02:06:42 and that's and we go to page nine in this
02:06:49 um you can see under paragraph eight door knocking survey december 2015 and if we look at the foot of the page we get the figures i've just put to you and then the summary of the feedback is
02:07:01 and then the summary of the feedback is received is as follows and over to page 10
02:07:05 10 you can see it says 90 of the residents confirmed
02:07:08 confirmed improvements to the heating and hot water were working effectively eighty-five percent of residents confirm that they understood how to operate the new heating system eighty-three percent of residents are happy with the new windows 97
02:07:20 happy with the new windows 97 confirmed that they understood how to operate the windows now it's right in fact isn't it just looking at that that those results are based on a series of narrow questions about very specific
02:07:31 specific aspects of the refurbishment aren't they
02:07:35 i i actually was on this but i don't remember the survey form i'm afraid
02:07:45 did you when you saw the
02:07:49 speech did you carry out an investigation into mr defaun's complaints about the quality of the workmanship that he listed so far as he listed them
02:08:01 as i say it was very generalized um i'm just trying to sorry can you give me the chronology again between this door knocking when when was the the the speech by mr
02:08:14 when was the the the speech by mr default
02:08:15 default the door knocking was in december 2015 yeah 2015. yeah i was on it so i remember that yeah and the speech was the 6th of january 2016. right okay and i think you said you saw this document
02:08:26 this document of which these results form apart a month or two later so that's the chronology yeah did you actually carry out an investigation into mr dufan's complaints
02:08:38 investigation into mr dufan's complaints in his speech so far as he listed them specifically um i believe by then the compact was up and running so i don't know whether through the con compact we asked him to clarify
02:08:51 compact we asked him to clarify but i don't personally remember
02:08:55 you know it would have been peter madison who would have led on that but i don't remember personally doing anything unless it went through the compact and then we had a matrix of issues
02:09:08 well the matrix of issues had started in fact with judith blakeman's insistence in the august of 2015 and then there was another version published in the mail produced in the
02:09:19 published in the mail produced in the may of 2016 but at this point so this is five months or so
02:09:23 or so after the first matrix was produced which was very detailed were you not concerned that there were still potential issues with the quality of the works that you were project managing um
02:09:35 managing um so i didn't see it a bit later and i would think the compact would have given more specific issues you appreciate mr defan's speech seemed to be a headline issue didn't it
02:09:47 seemed to be a headline issue didn't it he didn't
02:09:48 he didn't say you know on this floor if there's an issue on that floor there's a problem and i would say as well that we had our our clerk of works um employed by the gmo
02:10:00 um employed by the gmo and their comment was that the quality on the scheme was consist out of ten it was consistently an eight out of ten there were issues with progress
02:10:11 there were issues with progress but in terms of quality of work that their clark works reports which went throughout the project um were giving the quality rating as high
02:10:24 were giving the quality rating as high so i think you know if if we'd had specific information if there was a problem then i would hope that it would have been resolved
02:10:34 resolved that it would be something that was historic and not ongoing now you agreed with me a moment ago that there were these two matrices of refurbishment issues one in august 15
02:10:45 of refurbishment issues one in august 15 and one in may 16. let's just look at the second of those two at met3045755
02:11:01 do you remember seeing this document yes you do and uh just scanning down it for those not familiar with it you can see that it's divided into uh columns
02:11:11 columns there's a number column there's an outstanding issue column and then there's a tmo ryden rbkc response column where the issues listed in the matrix registered as complaints with the complaints team
02:11:24 complaints team i don't think so i think because it was an ongoing piece of work that it i i didn't register it and i don't think peter did either i think it was still
02:11:37 peter did either i think it was still you know wider issues it's not a single topic
02:11:42 topic complaint why weren't these issues listed in the matrix registered as complaints to be dealt with by the tmo complaints team
02:11:53 complaints team yeah as i say i i suspect because you can see from some of these comments that for example um the first one in the response it says
02:12:04 um the first one in the response it says we're waiting for feedback on resident survey
02:12:07 survey and so there are a lot of things that are
02:12:10 are works in progress they're sort of a um continuous thing where they're being monitored and i believe the
02:12:21 i believe the complaints process wouldn't have been the best
02:12:25 the best um forum for this and unless you set it up as a complaint by the compact there are there are many issues and some of them
02:12:36 issues and some of them are say ongoing and so they wouldn't have a close-out date so do i take it from that that the concern i don't use the word concerns or
02:12:48 concern i don't use the word concerns or queries or complaints but the matters raised in the matrices both august 15 and may 16 were um uh investigated
02:12:59 were um uh investigated and dealt with by the tmo outside the complaints policy
02:13:06 um i believe so because i don't remember ever seeing any of these issues on the complaints log but i say the reason for that would be
02:13:15 be that they were ongoing that there was discussion between parties it's like you know if you have a meeting a regular meeting set up and there are things outstanding
02:13:26 things outstanding you keep track of them through the meeting it if and log them as actions and resolution time some of these if they're dependent on
02:13:38 discussion with residents it it means that it's quite hard to pin an end date on them
02:13:42 on them was there a clear system in operation from
02:13:46 from the middle of 2015 let's take that date which is the time when the compact is recognized july 15 taking us through august 15 and in down
02:13:57 taking us through august 15 and in down to may 16 was there a system operating clearly within the tmo which would tell you which grenfell related complaints would be
02:14:07 be dealt with within the matrix system if you like
02:14:12 you like and which would be dealt with under the tma standing complaints policy
02:14:19 i don't think there was but i say this the compact was being led by from my team from my director and it seems more
02:14:30 more i don't know his stance on this but from for me
02:14:33 for me this seems more appropriate to keep it outside the complaint system right what would you do if a complaint had had an origin before the refurbishment but that but now
02:14:44 refurbishment but that but now intersected with the refurbishment such as for example
02:14:48 example concerns about fire safety in the building
02:14:52 building which predated the refurbishment but which might have been seen to be exacerbated by the refurbishment which which system would it fit into the complaint system or the the matrix system
02:15:05 the matrix system i i um
02:15:08 i i um i'm not sure i think it all needs a little bit more thought and um so i
02:15:17 um so i i think you could be splitting hairs a little bit to the extent here as to which
02:15:21 which some would be on the complaint system and some this was an ongoing discussion with a resident group there'd be other issues that other people were discussing which again wouldn't would perhaps not
02:15:34 which again wouldn't would perhaps not be appropriate for the complaint system right i see just so i can understand supervision and lines of reporting you are obviously at the front end of receiving this who is supervising
02:15:45 is supervising you in your management or resolution of these
02:15:49 these concerns or issues um i wasn't at the front end of receiving this this went to peter madison oh i see when director him did it yeah did you have any role in these well yes he would then show it to me
02:16:03 well yes he would then show it to me and we would talk about what i needed to do to resolve issues that were in my area of responsibility and then that you would write the response right
02:16:16 response right were you concerned when you saw the matrix stated may 60 that there were still issues being raised by residents
02:16:27 no i felt it was a positive sign that the compact was doing something active and that the relationship was improving that we were able to discuss these things
02:16:44 now looking at page three of this document if we can you can see under item 10 there's something
02:16:52 something under the heading drafts and poor workmanship a number of windows are not properly installed and there are lots of drafts
02:16:58 drafts the shutters are making excessive noise in some flats and it goes on in that vein and then the heating keeps being cut off residents would like to have a timetable setting out when all outstanding matters
02:17:10 setting out when all outstanding matters will be finalized and then resolution column all reported window issues have been resolved by ryden with residents signing to say they're happy with works completed do you know who completed the entry on
02:17:21 do you know who completed the entry on behalf of tmo ryden there um i would think that would be peter right were you aware yourself of the reported issues with windows
02:17:32 reported issues with windows um yes we we had
02:17:38 i i would think of the concerns raised i think the windows is probably one of the issues that i would say that we were taking seriously
02:17:52 say that we were taking seriously because there were in terms of um resident use and then installation
02:18:06 you know i may come back to windows in due course if we need to can i then move on to a slightly different topic which is the vote of no confidence can
02:18:17 which is the vote of no confidence can we please go to rbk3054227
02:18:30 uh this is an email from kitty mortimer at rbkc to uh to roger keane at rbkc
02:18:42 to uh to roger keane at rbkc both uh involved in housing it's dated the 16th of june 2014 and it appears to forward a grenfell
02:18:53 and it appears to forward a grenfell action group newsletter and if we can just look down at page two please
02:19:02 it has a bit of graffiti on the on the wall listen to the voiceless and then uh four paragraphs down
02:19:14 i should read the first paragraph all residents of grenfell tower tenants lease held as renters etc are invited to attend an emergency residence meeting to be held in the caretaker's office
02:19:24 office etc the meeting will be run by the residents of the grenfell tower for the residents of grenfell tower rbkc councillors labour and conservative officers and representatives of the tma will not be invited and then
02:19:37 of the tma will not be invited and then two paragraphs on from that we wish to discuss the vote of no confidence in claire williams and the tmo and their ability to manage the grenfell tower improvement works properly we wish to discuss the tma's refusal to
02:19:49 we wish to discuss the tma's refusal to allow the residents of grenfell tower to form a residence group to help us through the improvement works and then it goes on over the page uh i think we don't need to see that in fact there's nothing there
02:20:00 fact there's nothing there um my uh question here is do you remember first do you remember the grenfell action group calling for a vote of no confidence in you ms williams um i would have seen
02:20:12 in you ms williams um i would have seen that yes
02:20:16 that yes uh what did you do about that
02:20:20 um i probably would have talked to my manager david and peter madison right do you remember doing so
02:20:31 right do you remember doing so um i don't but obviously it was a while ago
02:20:39 were you generally aware of the resentment at least according to this message
02:20:45 message that members of the grenfell action group felt towards you personally
02:20:52 no generally it was directed towards my director
02:20:56 director um
02:21:00 do you know what the the outcome excuse me do you know what the outcome of this meeting was
02:21:08 um sorry which year was it this is june 2014
02:21:12 2014 2014.
02:21:16 i no you will have to refresh my memory i'm afraid did anybody in the housing department discuss this with you i i don't remember sorry right
02:21:31 i mean were you concerned in the summer of
02:21:35 of 2014 it's only six months or so after you arrived at the tmo that at least according to this gag blog post of
02:21:43 post of june 2014 there was such an atmosphere of
02:21:47 of hostility and distrust towards you personally over your management of the refurbishment um no because again i was talking to residents that drop in and
02:21:58 drop in and and i felt there was no animosity towards me people were saying thank you for explaining things um so obviously i was
02:22:09 um so obviously i was aware that there was this sort of swell underneath but what i was seeing face to face
02:22:14 face with residents was that they knew we were getting on with the job they they knew that we were on site and they
02:22:22 and they um that they had particular issues perhaps to their own property but but not as a um not across the board it was
02:22:33 a um not across the board it was um and the drop-ins were dropping is that is this right that the tmo had arranged
02:22:38 arranged in order to um engage with the residents about the refurbishment yeah to show them different elements like the hiu
02:22:46 hiu the um say windows the heating that sort of thing well let me explore that let's see a little bit further next uh can we go please to the newsletter for first of august
02:22:58 to the newsletter for first of august 2012.
02:22:59 2012. now i appreciate this is some 13 months or so before you arrived at the tma this is at
02:23:06 tm00838191
02:23:11 and i'm going to focus when we look at consultation on the question of the cladding the exterior rain screen and if you look at that document it's
02:23:22 and if you look at that document it's dated the first of august 2012. first is this document familiar to you yes did you see this document or this kind of document when you first arrived at the tmo in
02:23:33 you first arrived at the tmo in september 2013. um yes it was in paul duncan's directories right if we um look then at
02:23:43 the first page there's feedback from residents
02:23:46 residents you see that and then if you go to page three please
02:23:55 this is as a result of a meeting on the 26th of july 2012. it says under cladding systems in the blue
02:24:04 blue oblong box on the left various cladding options have been shown to residents with the composite zinc cladding system being favored by the majority
02:24:12 majority you see that yes and then it goes on um to give the advantages and then if we go to the next document um the choice of zinc is reiterated this
02:24:26 um the choice of zinc is reiterated this is tmo100
02:24:34 this is only a week or so late
02:24:41 this is a week or so before actually this is the lead up to it and then if you go to page three we can actually see the 9th of august so this is a week or so later feedback
02:24:53 and if you go to the first page you'll see a little chronology and a lot of a lot happening at the end of july and early august
02:25:05 of july and early august see that yes and then under the entry for july 26 july 2012 it says uh evening consultation meeting
02:25:17 it says uh evening consultation meeting and daytime drop-in sessions external canopy residents would like to see a new canopy
02:25:21 canopy which offers protection and shelter around the block external cladding proposal favorable to residents seem to be for profiled zinc although we seem to have some feedback on the type of cladding it is still
02:25:32 on the type of cladding it is still undecided on your preferred color for the cladding just just first in relation to the canopy i know you arrived more than a year later but what happened to the proposal
02:25:43 later but what happened to the proposal from the residents that there should be a new canopy offering protection and shelter around the block it's my understanding that the canopy was there specifically
02:25:54 the canopy was there specifically because things had dropped out of higher level windows and it was to protect people walking up ground floor level
02:26:05 but when it went to the planners i think the planners wanted the building to um
02:26:14 to have an unencumbered front entrance they wanted it to be a neater cleaner look and so the planners were not
02:26:28 the planners were not keen on a canopy and meanwhile siobhan rumble who was the neighborhood housing
02:26:36 housing manager was doing work with residents about why things were falling out of the windows
02:26:42 windows i think generally it was to do with the fact that
02:26:46 fact that people at the windows open and the curtains knock things out it wasn't i don't think it was um people always you know having a fight
02:26:57 people always you know having a fight and throwing things out of the window it was just things were falling off windowsills there was a chap on one floor who i think whose dad had dimension he was throwing things out the window
02:27:07 window but otherwise they they had cameras on the
02:27:11 the outside and they actually identified i think on one or two elevations where the stuff was coming from so housing management did quite a lot of work to actually understand where things were dropping from stop
02:27:23 where things were dropping from stop residents doing it and then obviously the planners they weren't keen on it because they thought it destroyed the entrance to the building the whole
02:27:34 the entrance to the building the whole the view of the block it's an aesthetic thing right so do i take it from that answer that rbkc to your knowledge uh essentially overruled or ignored the resident's desire for the protection and
02:27:46 resident's desire for the protection and shelter around the block that a new canopy would offer in favor of the aesthetic look um that that's probably um that's your you've been very good at
02:27:58 um that's your you've been very good at summarize my view i don't know if that was the actual view but that is what i've been led to understand um moving on then to the question of zinc um
02:28:07 zinc um both of these letters as i've said to you clearly i predate your time at the tma by just over a year and i think they were you say they were on the paul duncan directory when you came in
02:28:18 came in so can i take it that you were familiar with the previous discussions and consultations with residents about the zinc cladding when you started at
02:28:29 the zinc cladding when you started at the tma
02:28:31 the tma um i i was aware because of these newsletters but i don't know what else they were shown i see so these mention a lot of zinc but i don't know what else was shown
02:28:43 i don't know what else was shown now um can we go to tmo double zero eight three seven five nine nine please
02:28:51 this is uh a newsletter of october 2014 put out by the tmo and ryden it's it's a generation a regeneration newsletter and again i
02:29:03 newsletter and again i assume that you were responsible at least in part for producing this document yes yes and we can see on the front page a coffee morning
02:29:14 coffee morning and if you go please to page two
02:29:19 you can see at the very top of the page cladding the council has selected a smoke silver metallic grey color for the cladding you can still
02:29:27 can still view a sample of this above the main entrance we've started erecting a frame on the outside of the building on which to place the insulation and cladding this will cause the external walls to
02:29:38 this will cause the external walls to vibrate so please remove all valuable items away from walls connected to the outside of the building if you need to escape the noise please use the available quiet spaces mentioned above and there below it is the color
02:29:49 the color chosen for the cladding gray color chosen
02:29:53 chosen for the cladding um now as far as you were aware was it ever communicated to the residents that the material for the cladding had been changed
02:30:04 changed from zinc to aluminium composite material
02:30:07 material acm
02:30:11 uh we had lots of sample boards that the architects had produced um
02:30:18 um which were a i know sort of large boards which showed cladding i don't know what what they showed up
02:30:27 showed up i think that the architects as the second applica planning application was put in i think these drawings all said
02:30:41 these drawings all said cladding i think some of them said zinc but i think some of them said to be agreed or something like that because
02:30:47 because at that time it was possible that zinc wasn't the only option so i i haven't looked for the
02:30:58 i i haven't looked for the these architects display boards in my system but i think some some of the drawings might have said zinc
02:31:06 said zinc some might have said cladding to be agreed
02:31:10 agreed with great respect uh miss williams i found that a bit surprising given the chronology because we know don't we from your module one evidence and the record that acm was selected by the tmo finally
02:31:25 that acm was selected by the tmo finally uh in the earlier part of 2014 certainly by the end of july and the planners had approved uh the change to acm from zinc
02:31:36 uh the change to acm from zinc in late september 2014 to the best of um the best of my own recollection of the record and here we are in october 2014.
02:31:45 2014. is it really right that in october 2014 uh there was still discussion of an alternative for zinc um i think it was a historic note on the drawings
02:31:56 drawings i don't think it was a new note i think that
02:31:59 that the some of the architects drawings had been amended and some hadn't right was that the change from zinc
02:32:10 the change from zinc to aluminium clearly signaled to the residents
02:32:13 residents um not by myself no by anybody else
02:32:18 um i i don't know i suspect not do you know why that is um
02:32:28 i think as you say it wasn't agreed until
02:32:33 we were i think the mass climbers were already up before we'd agreed what we were going to use i think
02:32:41 think we were quite a way in so no it it it wasn't mentioned and that that wasn't a mission
02:32:50 was the reason i think would follow from your last answer that the answer is no but let me ask anyway was the reason for the switch from zinc to acm ever communicated to the residents
02:33:04 i can't remember that it was i suspect not
02:33:07 not is there a reason why the residents weren't asked for their view about whether instead of zinc there should be aluminium composite
02:33:18 there should be aluminium composite material
02:33:19 material i i can't think there was a reason i suspect it was because the decision wasn't made until the project was on site
02:33:31 we can see that in this newsletter you say the council has selected a smoked silver metallic gray color for the cladding
02:33:39 cladding there's no reference here to the fact that in actual actual fact the council had not only selected smoke silver but had actually selected aluminium composite with a polyethylene core
02:33:51 composite with a polyethylene core instead of zinc with a honeycomb core why wasn't that change which was a change from the position in mid 2012
02:34:02 mid 2012 clearly communicated to the residents um
02:34:11 it wasn't communicated to the residents i don't think unless anybody had asked a specific question i don't think they did um it it was an omission rather than anything else but i say i think it was
02:34:22 anything else but i say i think it was because it was fairly late on in the scheme that that decision was made and also because it was the council who
02:34:33 and also because it was the council who um obviously gave us planning approval and you know there was limited um option for the the residents to to input into that and i noticed from the
02:34:45 input into that and i noticed from the previous newsletter you showed me that it said
02:34:48 it said residents they didn't seem to have a color preference well you know that would be the planners had the ultimate decision over what
02:34:58 over what the finish the color finish was it wasn't
02:35:01 wasn't us i'm afraid it wasn't the tmo and it was even
02:35:04 was even the residents because the planners were very mindful that the building was close to westway motorway
02:35:11 motorway and so they didn't want any um distraction to motorists and so they were fairly careful about what they wanted to choose
02:35:22 they wanted to choose well did you ever give the residents a specific opportunity direct directed to them and for their own benefit to study the options for cladding being discussed with the planners in the
02:35:33 discussed with the planners in the summer of 2014. um no we didn't why is that because the planners would be the people who made the ultimate decision that would be
02:35:44 would be sort of asking trying to consult with him on something that we had no sway over
02:35:49 over it would have been um
02:35:53 negative consultation because you're saying look at this this is what you know what do you want to do with it but in fact it was actually a planning decision
02:36:01 decision as to what that final finish would be so it would be
02:36:06 lip service it wouldn't be consultation well you say that and it although it may very well be the case that the planners would have the ultimate decision over the color the planners didn't have the ultimate
02:36:18 the planners didn't have the ultimate decision
02:36:19 decision over whether it should be zinc as opposed to acm which was a tmo decision wasn't it
02:36:24 wasn't it yes yes and that decision was something that
02:36:29 that do you accept should have been the focus of consultation and engagement with the residents so that they could understand the reason for the change yes i think perhaps that the the change
02:36:42 yes i think perhaps that the the change of personnel between paul duncan and what he presented and where i'm coming from a starting point meant that there was a gap there because i didn't know what he'd shown them what was what was
02:36:53 was what was been on the table so if if i'd been aware
02:36:57 aware that they'd all been shown this and they all loved this and then it changed subsequently i would probably have been keener to publicize but i think perhaps the
02:37:08 publicize but i think perhaps the change in appointment um meant that i didn't have that previous knowledge of uh what the residents had been shown and what they felt strongly about and what they didn't because i would obviously
02:37:19 they didn't because i would obviously try to be a consistent voice and say the change of personnel meant that that consistency didn't happen you'll remember from module one we looked at it i think in module one that
02:37:31 looked at it i think in module one that the nbs specification which was sent as part of the tender package in november 2013 therefore under your watch contained zinc proteus with a honeycomb
02:37:44 contained zinc proteus with a honeycomb core
02:37:45 core as the prime choice with a number of alternatives one of which uh was reina bond uh with a pe core um given the fact that
02:37:59 um given the fact that it was reno bond with a pe corps that was ultimately chosen by the tmo
02:38:05 rather than the zinc why not give residents an opportunity first of all to know that and second of all to provide their views about it
02:38:17 as you say it would have been perhaps more productive to say we did show you this but it's become this
02:38:27 this but i think the residents um what what i probably concentrated in the newsletter as we're looking at it is
02:38:38 newsletter as we're looking at it is the look of it so that people can understand what it would be like finally i didn't
02:38:44 i didn't go back and say look you talked about this but now we've got that it was um an omission on my part and i say
02:38:53 say my my view is that it's the change in personnel
02:38:59 now can i then turn to
02:39:04 excuse me
02:39:08 can we turn to uh very briefly back to fire safety advice to residents um can i take you to your first witness statement please page 18 paragraph 97
02:39:26 uh and you say here i was not ultimately responsible this is under the heading the fire and safety measures within grenfell tower as of 14th june 2017 i was not ultimately responsible for
02:39:38 i was not ultimately responsible for fire and safety measures within the tower but i am aware that on 17th of october 2014 to carl stakes conducted a fire risk assessment for grenfell tower i had met a new carl stokes but his engagement was by janice ray tma's
02:39:49 engagement was by janice ray tma's health and safety manager i believe i would have seen a copy of the fire risk assessment at the time it recorded amongst other things that the fire strategy for residential areas was a stay put strategy
02:40:00 was a stay put strategy which he confirmed meant residents remain within their own dwelling during a fire incident unless the fire is in that dwelling or it is otherwise affected
02:40:09 affected in which case they should immediately evacuate the dwelling and call the fire and rescue service he went on to say that the fire service or tmo employees will arrange for a general evacuation of the building at any time if this is appropriate
02:40:20 appropriate or the resident can leave at any time if they say wish he noted that information had been provided to all residents in the form of tenants handbook letters and briefing sheets etc and articles on fire safety advice and emergency procedures were also included
02:40:31 emergency procedures were also included in the residence magazine called link now we've covered already this morning and i'm not going to go back over the means of communication with residents
02:40:40 residents of fire safety advice i just want to ask you a specific question about what you say here
02:40:45 say here about tma employees arranging for general evacuation of the building at any time
02:40:51 any time my question is did you yourself ask janice ray or carl stokes which tmo employees would arrange for a general evacuation of the building
02:41:00 building if appropriate no do you know who they were
02:41:04 were no dude why did you leave that mata up in the air um
02:41:15 this would not be my area of business as a project manager i managed many different types of contracts some might be as i said i've done a
02:41:26 be as i said i've done a for tmo i did a window replacement contract a cavity fill contract external works contracts we had no
02:41:38 we had no general involvement with interior areas or ongoing management did you ever ask janice ray what are the arrangements
02:41:49 arrangements for tmo employees to arrange or assist with general evacuation of the building if it became appropriate uh no i didn't why is that because again as i say this my team
02:42:02 because again as i say this my team dealt with contracts on the properties you would be there for four months but say possibly doing outside works most of the contracts we ran were
02:42:14 most of the contracts we ran were outside
02:42:15 outside works apart from the kitchen and bathroom replacement programs so we weren't involved with the day-to-day management of the buildings right was it not important for you to know what carl stokes meant
02:42:26 know what carl stokes meant here when he said that tmos employees will arrange for general evacuation of the building given that you were managing the refurbishment project uh it was something that
02:42:38 uh it was something that i knew was dealt with by other areas of the business so i no i didn't um interrogate him as to what his report and the detail of his report meant when
02:42:49 and the detail of his report meant when you say
02:42:49 you say you knew it was being dealt with by other areas of the business can you tell us
02:42:53 us please who that was um the health and safety team would be talking to housing management about how they
02:43:01 how they because housing management had a longer term involvement in the building as i say
02:43:05 say the project management team that i worked in we would be deal with one contract one block then you move on you do another contract another area so you have no um
02:43:16 contract another area so you have no um long-term involvement with any of the properties it's the grenfell contracts you she understands the one-off um indeed but you we've seen earlier this morning that you were involved
02:43:27 this morning that you were involved on two occasions in putting fire safety advice
02:43:31 advice which refers to the state put policy into the regeneration given that your responsibility at least to that extent can you explain why you didn't when you saw what carl stakes had said in his fire risk assessment
02:43:43 had said in his fire risk assessment um seek to understand what arrangements there were for departing from the state policy and assisting with the undertaking of a full building or partial building
02:43:54 of a full building or partial building evacuation uh as far as i was concerned the emergency
02:44:01 emergency plan for the building was the same and as i wasn't involved in the day-to-day management of that area i i didn't i didn't ask and i say i think
02:44:14 i didn't ask and i say i think teams like mine work on many different contracts
02:44:18 contracts in different areas it's right um so it's something i felt wasn't my role i'm just
02:44:25 i'm just i'm just trying to ascertain in clear terms who was actually responsible for ensuring that there was there were arrangements in place for a general evacuation of the building at
02:44:37 general evacuation of the building at any time
02:44:38 any time yeah no i would assume it would be the health and safety team housing management and the fire brigade right you say you assumed did you actually yourself take any steps to make sure that they knew what it was that carl stokes
02:44:48 stokes himself had understood in this context um i i i
02:44:52 um i i i know that this report would have been sent to the appropriate people so no well let's look then a little bit more closely at fire risk assessments there's a different topic and first within that topic um can i ask
02:45:05 and first within that topic um can i ask you about
02:45:06 you about the extent of your role um can we start with paragraph 51 of your second statement please at page 11.
02:45:18 and you say on that page of paragraph 51 under the heading matters raised in the inquiries letter of 5th july 2017 you say i would say that my role as
02:45:29 you say i would say that my role as project manager encompassed some aspects of fire safety and health and safety and i've endeavoured to outline the extent of this involvement below and we'll see that but um in your evidence in module 1 you said
02:45:41 um in your evidence in module 1 you said that you hadn't in fact had any specific training in health and safety matters and no training or detailed knowledge or experience of the legislation or regulations under
02:45:52 of the legislation or regulations under the fire safety regulatory reform order 2005.
02:45:56 2005. that's what you said at day 54 pages 88-89
02:46:00 88-89 do you remember that evidence um no but i'm sure
02:46:03 i'm sure you can right um i mean i'm putting that to you and i'm asking you just to confirm that that's right isn't it uh yes right um were you familiar with any of the specific
02:46:15 familiar with any of the specific guidance about fire safety for building owners
02:46:23 um i i might have
02:46:26 some knowledge from experience but um limited i would suggest let me let me see if i can help you more specifically
02:46:37 specifically were you familiar at all with the local government association's guidance uh published in july 2011 entitled fire safety and purpose-built flats
02:46:48 um i i i don't think so no were you familiar with the government's guidance that preceded it
02:46:57 it called fire safety risk sleeping accommodation published in 2006. no um
02:47:08 were those uh pieces of guidance ever referred to at any time when you were at the tmo
02:47:16 the tmo just in passing i don't remember right
02:47:23 in respect of the specifics of your own role when it came to the fire risk assessments and the significant action plans produced by carl stokes um if we look at paragraph 57 of your
02:47:35 um if we look at paragraph 57 of your statement
02:47:35 statement on page 12 we can just flip to that you you say there
02:47:44 in the third line if any of the findings identified related to the refurbishment works janice ray would send carl's report to me
02:47:51 me to forward to ryden to complete i would then liaise with ryden for them to take forward however my understanding is that carl stokes would also attend grenfell tower to carry out fire safety inspections
02:48:02 fire safety inspections directly with ryden now to be clear it's right isn't it i think from that that you took responsibility for carl stokes's action points at least so far as they related to the refurbishment
02:48:14 refurbishment yes janice had to attribute them to somebody and i would be the person for the
02:48:18 the refurbishment yes do you recall taking responsibility for any of the action points that did not concern the refurbishment
02:48:27 i i i hope i wouldn't because if they weren't
02:48:30 weren't part of my role i shouldn't have taken them on so i think the answer is no not knowingly exactly right now can i then look at the next thing which is a an nfb site visit
02:48:41 which is a an nfb site visit on the 12th of march 2014. and for that we need to go to your first statement please
02:48:47 please your first statement of page 32 paragraph 179
02:48:53 and you say there fire brigade visited grenfell tower on the 12th straight 13th march 2014 has arranged in attendance from lfb were ben lewis
02:49:04 in attendance from lfb were ben lewis matthew ramsey and dan halsey and they made several observations in relation to the dry riser doors open in firefighting smoke vent to lobby and stare etc matthew ramsey was very unhappy with the
02:49:15 matthew ramsey was very unhappy with the dampers not being functional and he referred to an enforcement notice bruce sones of studio e architects attended with me now i think the reference there to ben lewis is a mistake for ben
02:49:26 lewis is a mistake for ben duis isn't it yes yes do you recall any discussion at that meeting about the lifts
02:49:39 um i know i wrote an email afterwards but i don't remember what the email said let me show it to you uh tmo one zero
02:49:50 let me show it to you uh tmo one zero zero zero five four five four
02:49:58 and that's the first page of the email
02:50:03 and it's sent
02:50:06 to you by carl stokes but if we go to the
02:50:10 the second page page two please you can see what prompts that email which we're going to come back to later here is the email from you to janice ray copy to carl stokes and bruce sowns
02:50:21 copy to carl stokes and bruce sowns on the 12th of march 2014 subject grenfell and finger blocks visit with fire brigade and um you say in the introductory paragraph i had a great time on site
02:50:33 paragraph i had a great time on site this this a.m with our architect and daniel halesey and matthew ramsey and a.n other from the fire brigade we talk through our grenfell scheme specifically four issues and then if you look at
02:50:44 look at item four you say carl can you please confirm that the lifts
02:50:50 lifts are either fireman's or fire fighting i did not realize there was a difference now just pausing on that does that prompt your recollection about what the conversation was about
02:51:07 no sorry
02:51:12 it it i'm not clear that i'm just asking for qualifications my own education or whether it was discussed as an item i don't remember do you remember whether there was a query from ben dewis or matthew ramsey or dan
02:51:24 from ben dewis or matthew ramsey or dan halesey
02:51:25 halesey of the lfb over the type of lifts in the building
02:51:30 building sorry i don't remember right do you know or can you remember why either you or they were concerned about the type of lifts in the building it could have been a
02:51:41 in the building it could have been a throwaway comment on their part and say i could be just trying to educate myself so i don't remember enough well let's go up the chain and see if we can get some uh further detail from from you
02:51:53 uh further detail from from you about it uh carl stokes responds at the top of page one and he says good afternoon to you but good afternoon to you both
02:52:02 you both ref.4 claire you are correct both are the same and both lifts in grenfell tower
02:52:07 tower are fire fighting lifts by the way a fireman's lift is definitions noun and then he refers to a method of carrying a person
02:52:18 person and then underneath that a firefighting lift is and he gives you a definition a lift that must be installed in buildings over 18 meters in high or where the basement level is more than 10 meters below the ground floor level
02:52:29 10 meters below the ground floor level today it will confirm conform to the requirements of en 8172 firefighting lifts i think he's getting confused with firemen controls and farm and switches
02:52:40 firemen controls and farm and switches etc which are fitted to a firefighting lift there are slight differences between a fire fighting lift and an evacuation lift though
02:52:49 do you remember what you made of that
02:52:54 response no i think i'd ask carl what it was and he's he'd give me a definition did you know if the lift in grenfell tower were intended to be used for
02:53:06 tower were intended to be used for evacuation purposes um i don't know i don't think this particularly helped me right did you forward or otherwise convey
02:53:17 forward or otherwise convey uh the fact that the in that the infamous did you i'm sorry did you tell the lfb uh that the lifts in grenfell tower were firefighting lifts
02:53:27 lifts uh i wouldn't have told them because i hadn't understood the distinction right and clearly you've been asked a question and passed it on to carl stokes and got an answer
02:53:38 answer uh that they are firefighting lifts is there a reason why you didn't pass that back to the lfb as i say i don't know they actually asked the question it could have been me i might have heard in conversation
02:53:49 i might have heard in conversation saying well you know if it was a firefighting lift i thought oh i don't know what that is so it could have been me just asking question to cart so that i say um was more educated in
02:54:00 so that i say um was more educated in what the differences were i don't know that they asked a question right
02:54:07 right i mean it does appear from the email that you sent claire williams that i've just shown you that your question about whether the firefighter whether the list of firefighting lives had arisen as a result of discussion of
02:54:19 had arisen as a result of discussion of the grenfell scheme and then you ask carl states the question given the source of the question in your mind which you then passed on to carl stakes why is it that you didn't simply pass the information
02:54:30 you didn't simply pass the information back to the lfb i i say i i think if it had been a specific question from the lfb i would have said is this a firefighting lift we need to tell the lfb
02:54:41 lift we need to tell the lfb i didn't ask it that way so that's why i think it's more me trying to understand what the difference is because i've specifically you know if you
02:54:50 you look at the way that i phrased the rest of it you know it's clear they need a response whereas in that one it was more saying carl what's the difference so i think i i can't tell whether they did ask a
02:55:01 i i can't tell whether they did ask a question i i suspect from my phraseology they they didn't because i haven't asked the question in the right way for carl to respond having been told by carl stakes that the lifts were
02:55:12 by carl stakes that the lifts were firefighting lifts what were you going to do with that information um so i i think it was possibly something for me just to understand but i i still wouldn't understand and as
02:55:24 but i i still wouldn't understand and as it says here there's a slight difference between a firefighting lift and the evacuation lift so i haven't asked that i haven't gone back and asked more so i think this is purely for me to understand the issue
02:55:35 understand the issue were you aware during your role as project manager in relation to the refurbishment that the lifts at grenfell tower did not in fact meet the full firefighting lift standards no i
02:55:46 firefighting lift standards no i wouldn't know that did you ever raise or discuss the issue of firefighting lifts with apex or ryden or any other contractors during the refurbishment no
02:55:57 do you recall a discussion about flat entrance doors in grenfell tower um the new ones and the old ones we probably talked about right do you remember a discussion with
02:56:09 right do you remember a discussion with the lfb about that topic not myself for the lfb i would have talked to ryden i would have talked to residents the occupational therapist but i i didn't talk to the lfb about the fire doors at all
02:56:20 fire doors at all can we then look back at your email uh below this one to janice ray of the 12th of march
02:56:28 uh page two i've shown you paragraph um
02:56:37 uh four and if we look at paragraph two in that page you said this matthew was very unhappy about the existing state
02:56:46 state of the smoke vents to each lobby of those looked at about 30 were not in the right position i've been chasing rge for two months now on their servicing records and enough had nothing back
02:56:57 records and enough had nothing back janice do you want to chase simon coleman or dill on this as i'm obviously getting nowhere matthew said about issuing us with a notice to confirm fully functional in six weeks but maybe i can deal with daniel on this assuming
02:57:08 daniel on this assuming that we do have some servicing records did matthew ramsey explain to you that there was no working smoke management system in the building
02:57:19 um i think he was talking about a deficiency notice but i i don't know exactly what he said about the system i suspected
02:57:30 about the system i suspected there were areas of it that weren't working i don't know if it was all not working
02:57:33 working right i i mean you're right that he it did in fact issue a deficiency notice but that was later in the month 24th of march 2014 at this point 12th of
02:57:44 24th of march 2014 at this point 12th of march 2014. do you remember whether mr ramsey
02:57:47 ramsey told you or explained to you that the smoke management system wasn't working
02:57:55 i think there was something about it that was working but not the whole lot right do you remember what collection um i think the
02:58:07 oh the deficiency needs to tell you but i i thought that the um the smoke detectors were going to the panel
02:58:15 panel they were flagging up on the panel if there was
02:58:18 there was a fire but i don't know about the the vents to each lobby so i that's my recollection is that there was a bit of it that was working but
02:58:29 a bit of it that was working but not not the whole system now you say you've been chasing rge for two months on their servicing records why have you been trying to obtain the service records
02:58:40 records um i believe when well as part of ryden's um tender pack we gave them the certificates we had on many of the elements
02:58:51 many of the elements that had been serviced and i think we'd had something but there was a report that they should have been
02:59:00 have been again they should have done a further test and
02:59:03 test and ryden was saying can we have a copy of that because they were obviously doing their health and safety reports so i think i was getting it for our contractor
02:59:15 contractor so that they could understand the situation because i say i think the previous certificate we'd given them was maybe august or august 13 or something like that right was your request for the service records
02:59:27 was your request for the service records prompted by queries from max fordham do you remember about the nature of the existing smoke control system uh yeah it could have been ryden or max fordham thank you yeah it was somebody on the project he was asking around do
02:59:38 on the project he was asking around do you know why it was taking so long to get the records out of rge um well that's i wasn't sure that i was talking to the right person anyway um mr chairman
02:59:51 um mr chairman let me just uh finish this line mini line off before one o'clock if i may let me show you one more document can i ask you then to go the light of that answer just to finalize this max404262 please
03:00:11 finalize this max404262 please you refer to dill in your email the 12th of march
03:00:14 of march and this is an email from dill singh of rge to matt smith of the 23rd of january 2014 matt smith is max fordham
03:00:26 2014 matt smith is max fordham and this is something like six weeks or so before the 12th of march and he's attaching a report on the vent system and recommendations and if you look at the email he says in
03:00:38 and if you look at the email he says in the third
03:00:39 the third paragraph we have stated every service to the tmo that in in the event of an activation we cannot guarantee that the system will work haddil singh provided you with that
03:00:50 haddil singh provided you with that information um no i don't think i've seen this email before
03:00:57 before no you may not have done yeah i think that's why probably wasn't communicating with me he'd already sent the report to um matt from max fordham so no i don't think he ever provided it
03:01:08 so no i don't think he ever provided it to me and i think right this is the first report that i know that they've sent to max fordham because i hadn't seen this before so
03:01:16 before so so when he says we have stated every service to the tmo that in the event of an activation we cannot guarantee that the system will work did you know that no right um mr chairman that's
03:01:28 no right um mr chairman that's a convenient moment i think i'm in the middle of a line of examination and probably take me a little bit longer than five minutes to complete it probably be sensible then to break now wouldn't it yes thank you all right miss williams it's time we had a break
03:01:40 miss williams it's time we had a break for everyone who had some lunch uh please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it when you're out of the room and we'll resume at two o'clock please thanks thank you very much
03:02:03 thanks thank you very much thank you
03:02:31 you