TMO evidence on smoke ventilation system (AOV) failures, revealing months of deficiency notices ignored and residents uninformed about fire safety risks.
00:00:24 would you ask ms williams to come back in please
00:00:44 right miss williams ready to carry on yes thank you yes mr millet mr chairman ms williams
00:00:55 i'm going to continue with my questions about the smoke vent system or the aov can i please ask you to be shown
00:01:05 tm0100-5572 please
00:01:11 this is a letter that carl stokes sent to you
00:01:15 to you on the 18th of march 2014 can we look at the first paragraph it says thank you for asking me to comment on the questions raised by the london fire brigade lfb officers during their visit to the above
00:01:26 officers during their visit to the above buildings on the lancaster west estate on 12th of march the nfp fire officers were ben lewis should be duis matthew ramsey and dan hussey and you are accompanied by mr bruce sons of studio e
00:01:37 bruce sons of studio e the questions asked were contained in your emails to me from notes that were taken during the visit i visited the above premises yesterday monday 17 march 2014 to gather the information for this report the information on service dates
00:01:49 report the information on service dates etc was obtained from the contract and servicing and maintenance logbooks held on site and from records from the tmas engineers section at the hub
00:02:00 did you ask carl stokes to visit grenfell tower to investigate the concerns that had been raised by the lfb i don't remember doing so because normally it would be
00:02:11 normally it would be he worked to janice ray so this would be a bit unusual right
00:02:20 it looks as if you certainly asked him to comment on the questions raised by the lfb
00:02:24 the lfb would that be right um i don't know i think i asked that my previous email showed me asking janice and janice passed it on so i'm wondering if this is him just
00:02:35 so i'm wondering if this is him just formalizing um what was in my email right then lower down
00:02:40 down he says grenfell tower and you can see the heading there and just below that ventilation system on flat stroke lift lobby areas and then if we turn to within that section of this letter to the top of page two we can see he says
00:02:52 the top of page two we can see he says this
00:02:53 this the emergency smoke control extract panel was showing healthy when looked at yesterday with the smitch switch in the auto position then he goes
00:03:04 switch in the auto position then he goes on to say in the next paragraph this smoke extraction system is on a planned preventive maintenance program with rge this contractor last service
00:03:15 contractor last service this system according to their on-site logbook on the 15 15 13 sick police see appendix a below the previous loose page and the log book was full in the service before this one
00:03:26 was full in the service before this one was
00:03:26 was in september 2013 so i'm assuming that the 15th month is a mistake and the engineer meant the 12th month as can be seen the engineer checked all of the items in the quarterly checklist and the only fault recorded was 19th
00:03:37 and the only fault recorded was 19th floor
00:03:38 floor relay as the next quarterly service is imminently due on this smoke extraction system
00:03:42 system i'd recommend that the contractor is asked to service the system and any findings etc made are actioned [Music]
00:03:54 now
00:03:57 did you understand from this letter that carl stokes was reporting that the aov was
00:04:03 aov was functioning or not functioning
00:04:07 i think as i said before that i think part of it was working but not the whole lot
00:04:13 lot and so i suspect the deficiency notice might have been a bit more specific but it was in my mind's eye that say some of it was working but i wasn't 100 sure
00:04:22 sure which part did you go back and ask him given that this letter was addressed to you
00:04:28 you about which part was working which part wasn't working um i suspect the deficiency notice was served and that was probably a clearer guide did you
00:04:41 clearer guide did you consider carl stacks's finding that rge had serviced the system apparently as operational when uh in fact rge had reported that
00:04:52 when uh in fact rge had reported that they couldn't guarantee that it would work in the event of an emergency no i i don't think i'd seen anything saying it wouldn't work in event of the emergency
00:05:01 emergency um because say when i pulled together information for ryden for their
00:05:09 for their um to inform them for their tender i i had a service certificate and i think it was the one that's referred to here
00:05:18 here the one from rge on whatever month it was
00:05:21 was the 12th month so i'd taken it in good faith that it was working based on rge certification then obviously behind the scenes rg had written to
00:05:35 behind the scenes rg had written to max fordham the m e contractor with the in
00:05:38 in the letter or email you just shown me a minute ago saying they couldn't guarantee it yes you didn't know that no no i haven't seen that can we look at page 11 in this document
00:05:49 document where we see his comment and recommendations and under item one he says the next quarterly service is imminently due on the emergency smoke extraction system installed on the flat straight lift
00:06:00 installed on the flat straight lift lobby areas of grenfell tower the last service by the contractor stated that the system is in working order apart from one reply i would recommend the contractor is asked to service the system sooner rather than
00:06:11 rather than later and any findings etc made by him are actioned upon if this system is in working order there is no requirement to do a cfd analysis to be undertaken [Music]
00:06:22 [Music] uh now um did you action carl stokes his recommendation as set out here that rge services the aov sooner rather than later
00:06:33 than later i don't think we stopped their next service
00:06:38 service so um i the contracts team managed the servicing of the equipment and i don't think we stopped the next service which was due
00:06:51 service which was due later you don't think you stopped it but did you do anything to accelerate it um no because it said it was due it was due and i knew it was serviced in a regular basis
00:07:02 a regular basis so that would be managed by the contracts team so the next service was due
00:07:06 due right do i take it from this document and your answers on it just now that when you got this letter you didn't think there was much if anything wrong with the aov as it stood at that time
00:07:18 it stood at that time um i think when i met the fire brigade i understood there was a deficiency there but i don't know sorry i've forgotten already which side of this correspondence that meeting was uh
00:07:30 correspondence that meeting was uh before the meeting was on the 12th and 13th of march this is the 18th of march so only a few days before that yeah so no i thought there was something not right with it but i wasn't clear to
00:07:42 not right with it but i wasn't clear to the extent to which it wasn't right
00:07:47 did you pursue your lack of clarity with anybody for example going back to carl stokes and asking him to comment further no i didn't because i
00:07:58 to comment further no i didn't because i knew that it was serviced on a regular basis this is clear that it was it was due um so no i didn't but meanwhile
00:08:11 um so no i didn't but meanwhile the consultant team working on the refurbishment bruce she appreciate was the architect i had invited max fordham to the meeting with the fire brigade but i don't think he was able to attend
00:08:25 but i don't think he was able to attend so they were working meanwhile on upgrading the system anyway so um i didn't understand what part of it wasn't working properly i knew we had a deficiency
00:08:37 i knew we had a deficiency notice coming to us and so meanwhile in the background the consultant team are working on the improvement um specification did you think of going back to the lfb
00:08:50 did you think of going back to the lfb and showing them this letter and asking them for their views
00:08:55 views um i've i wouldn't have i i wouldn't have janice ray may have because this would have been shared with her and she might have shared it with them
00:09:05 them but i i wouldn't have known you say you wouldn't have done but given that you had been present at the meeting on the 12th of march you were the one who reported back to janice ray about it you were the one
00:09:16 janice ray about it you were the one involved
00:09:17 involved in direct discussions with the nfb and you were the one who'd received this letter directly from carl stokes why wouldn't you have been the person to go back to the lfb and
00:09:26 and and show them this letter uh the main liaison with the lfb was janice it was appropriate to keep that that route going because say uh my involvement with
00:09:37 going because say uh my involvement with the block would always be in terms of just the refurbishment janice would have a longer term interest in the building and this was something that she if it was needed to be raised janice would do the front line liaison with
00:09:49 would do the front line liaison with the fire brigade i'm not sure i understand why you say that miss williams forgive me but you weren't you and not janice was at the meeting you were not janice had received this letter
00:10:00 letter so why would janice be the one to take this letter back to the lfb in those circumstances um janice would be the one who'd get the deficiency notice um and if she wanted to counteract it
00:10:13 um and if she wanted to counteract it with this letter then that that would be something she would do but say i
00:10:18 say i um the root for communication with the fire brigade was was generally through janice because it meant she then had a handle on all the um traffic flow
00:10:30 handle on all the um traffic flow so it would be janice and i i say i hadn't met any of those people before and
00:10:36 and um so janice obviously had didn't know who they were and had a relationship with them as i didn't were you waiting for the deficiency notice at this point um we were you were you expecting it
00:10:49 um we were you were you expecting it um yes i think matthew ramsey was clear that one was going to be issued right but i say so meanwhile in the background i've got the consultant's team who are working on the specification for the upgrade so i was keeping
00:11:02 the upgrade so i was keeping the ball rolling by keeping their work continuing and by bruce attending this meeting he had a better understanding of um where any gaps were now
00:11:13 um where any gaps were now can let's look at the deficiency notice that's at nfb 3032101 please [Music]
00:11:21 [Music] three two one zero one uh it's addressed to the company
00:11:32 uh it's addressed to the company secretary
00:11:33 secretary at rbkc tmo dated the 24th of march 2014 from the authority did you ever see this at the time
00:11:48 i suspect janice would have attached it to me
00:11:51 to me would have sent it as an attachment to me yes
00:11:56 me yes uh and we certainly know that you had seen it late you saw it later in the year because by september you were sending it to simon lawrence
00:12:07 sending it to simon lawrence uh and my question really is when do you think you first saw it [Music]
00:12:13 [Music] um i i would assume fairly soon after janice had received it okay now you can see in the first paragraph there's a reference to a recent inspection of grenfell tower in the second
00:12:25 of grenfell tower in the second paragraph it says the steps should be completed by 5th may 2014
00:12:30 2014 when a further inspection may be carried out
00:12:35 and then if we look a bit further down the document you can see that on page three there's a schedule
00:12:42 schedule and various articles which refer to conditions contained in the
00:12:50 the regulatory reform fire safety order on the left-hand side the conventions the contraventions and the steps needed to comply uh and under the first one area of concern you can see article 11 1
00:13:03 concern you can see article 11 1 failure in the effective monitoring of preventive and protective measures for example
00:13:07 example a significant number approximately 25 percent of automatically opening vents within the common parts of the premises were found not to be in working order no suitable system of monitoring was in evidence to identify deficiencies with
00:13:19 evidence to identify deficiencies with the smoke
00:13:19 the smoke ventilation system
00:13:24 so you were aware then shortly after this document was issued 24th of march 2014 that
00:13:31 2014 that a significant number of the smoke vents were not in working order that there was no suitable system of monitoring to identify deficiencies and that the system hadn't been maintained in effective condition working condition
00:13:44 um yes yes and just on that last point if i can just show you page three i um
00:13:53 did anything i read to you uh article 17.1 but that that the point i've just made about the system not being maintained in effective working condition is set out in the left-hand column there yeah so you you knew the subject of the
00:14:05 yeah so you you knew the subject of the complaint
00:14:06 complaint or the deficiency notice very shortly after 24th of march 25th 2014. yes um yes um bear in mind though i'm only able
00:14:17 yes um bear in mind though i'm only able to understand you know i'm like most of us here we're not m e bods so
00:14:22 so i i can understand what it says there but i don't know always you know how you'd rectify it so easily or what what the implications are no but my question was a more limited one did you understand
00:14:33 one did you understand the nature of the complaint and the date by which it had to be cured soon after the 24th of march 2014. you did
00:14:42 and you noted that the fifth of may was only about six or eight weeks later yes yes were you when you received this or saw it
00:14:50 or saw it were you surprised carl stokes had not raised these issues in his letter of the 18th of march 2014 to you which predated this notice of deficiency by about six days
00:15:02 by about six days [Music]
00:15:05 [Music] i don't think i thought about it in that way i think we didn't know quite as i said i wasn't quite clear on what the areas of deficiency were
00:15:17 deficiency were um i think i said about 30 of the opening events weren't working this says 25
00:15:22 25 um so no i i'd say i think until this came in we didn't quite know what it was going to say no indeed my point my question is a
00:15:33 no indeed my point my question is a different one when it did come in and you did see what it said did you not go back and look at carl stokes his letter of the previous week and ask yourself or you'd ask him why he hadn't picked up
00:15:44 why he hadn't picked up the points that the lfb had picked up and we're showing his breaches of the fire safety order um no i didn't look and do that why is that
00:15:52 that um
00:15:56 i think i was probably handling a lot of things and i think that um this was one that i i
00:16:08 assumed that would be something that janice would pick up because she is monitoring the servicing of this equipment
00:16:16 equipment and she may be able to look at reports which tell us a little bit more information about the servicing regime and what they found on the servicing regimes and why there were gaps in the
00:16:28 regimes and why there were gaps in the servicing regime if that was the case do you accept that his conclusions in his letter and his findings about the monitoring and maintenance of the aov system namely that it was apparently up to date
00:16:39 to date and showing healthy were at odds with the lfb zone findings in the respect identified in the deficiency notice
00:16:51 notice i think what carl had said was that the rge report said that um but he'd expected the 19th relay or whatever wasn't
00:17:03 the 19th relay or whatever wasn't working
00:17:04 working i don't know that he did look at these automatic opening vents i think because i'd said in my email that 30 of them weren't working he'd maybe
00:17:15 30 of them weren't working he'd maybe taken that as read he and he then had investigated the rge report so slightly different aspect of it perhaps
00:17:25 perhaps given that you had a fire risk assessor examine the building either your or janice ray's request uh and particularly the aov system as a
00:17:36 uh and particularly the aov system as a result of the lfb meeting a few days before were you not surprised uh to see that he hadn't mentioned the deficiencies but the lfb had when this deficiency notice came in
00:17:51 i don't think i'd seen any fire risk assessments in my career until i worked on this project so no i wasn't particularly familiar with what a risk assessment the fire risk assessment was going to contain
00:18:03 assessment was going to contain did you ask him or even ask yourself well i wonder why carl didn't pick that up
00:18:09 up um no i didn't i wasn't familiar enough with what i was looking at to as you say spot inconsistencies
00:18:22 the aov and its uh um refurbishment if that's the right word was very much part of the grenfell tower refurbishment project
00:18:33 project by certainly by march 2014 wasn't it it was actually in the tender they'd identified early on that the system hadn't
00:18:45 the system hadn't was i think it was determined as an experimental system when it was built and that um it wouldn't meet with building regulations um now and so when we built more flats
00:18:59 um now and so when we built more flats that had an impact on the system and obviously the idea was to upgrade it to make it as effective as possible because i think there was still concerns that because it's an existing
00:19:10 concerns that because it's an existing building you were dealing with a limited space in which to put these measures so yeah so it was a total redesign but based on the constraints of the existing
00:19:21 based on the constraints of the existing building
00:19:23 building so as you say it was something that was in the tender but over the course of the project the requirements for the aov changed because we changed the numbers
00:19:34 changed because we changed the numbers of new flats we were building and that had an impact on the air volumes that were required in terms of its smoke extraction system so there's two sets of fans one
00:19:46 sets of fans one the new floor levels and one on the roof and so
00:19:49 and so the volume of air that had to go through changed when we changed the layout of the lower ground floor yes exactly i think you're answering my question which is it it was part of the refurbishment it was yeah therefore do you accept that it
00:20:00 was yeah therefore do you accept that it was part of your responsibility the upgrade of the aov fell within the project for which you were responsible the upgrade of the aov did forward my responsibility and so did the compliance of the aov
00:20:11 compliance of the aov with the rro the fire safety order because that was essential in order to make sure that the tmo discharged its obligations as a responsible person under that legislation i'm not familiar with the
00:20:23 legislation i'm not familiar with the rro
00:20:24 rro but it seems to me that there was a service record which perhaps misled and then the deficiency notice comes in
00:20:35 and then the deficiency notice comes in and all the time i've got my consultants working on what the new upgraded arv system will look like
00:20:44 look like um so uh
00:20:47 um so uh the the situation when we took it over was obviously i i had seen the rg certificate and i thought it was working but when we met with the fire brigade it was clear there
00:20:59 with the fire brigade it was clear there were deficiencies and that's as i say i'm not
00:21:02 i'm not 100 clear on what the deficiencies were and when this came in this just says about part of it carl had picked up something different you've said
00:21:10 said and you're right but so i wasn't familiar enough with the
00:21:18 original system to know what it was what was working and what wasn't it was only through the documents of our consultant and consultant carl
00:21:29 and consultant carl and the fire brigade that i'm understanding that the system we're inheriting has problems now you can see on this document in the right hand column that the
00:21:36 the lfb set out some steps that they considered necessary to remedy the contravention were any of those steps carried out by the deadline of the 5th of may 2014.
00:21:48 i i tried to get the service records to give myself some reassurance i suspect janice was looking as well i
00:22:00 looking as well i believe there were conversations held with the fire brigade subsequently explaining that it wasn't an easy fix that it wasn't something where we could
00:22:11 that it wasn't something where we could just go in and
00:22:16 do temporary works to get it working again
00:22:20 again the system was due to be upgraded and that
00:22:24 that the the discussions we had with them led to us doing the upgrade rather than [Music]
00:22:36 the other options of any temporary fix weren't weren't going to work they weren't viable you could um say the the system was so it was the original built system it had so many inherent problems with it
00:22:49 it had so many inherent problems with it in terms of the wiring and stuff that the only answer was to upgrade it did you or anybody else at the tmo update the lfb in response to this deficiency notice until the deadline of the fifth of may
00:23:01 until the deadline of the fifth of may had not been met once it had passed um janice would have done that
00:23:06 done that um let's look then at cst403079 [Music]
00:23:14 this is the bi-monthly meeting between the lfb and the tmo this one on the first of april 2014 at 10 a.m at the network hub
00:23:26 at 10 a.m at the network hub kenzel road and you are in attendance you may remember that day because it was a busy day for you i think because that was also the same day as the contractors induction meeting wasn't it
00:23:37 induction meeting wasn't it um i don't remember right uh you're there if we look uh you can also see that the lfb are also in attendance
00:23:48 in attendance suhail dada boy and daniel halsey and if you then look please at page two we can see item six [Music]
00:23:59 [Music] and you'll remember daniel hallacy had been at the 12th of march tower visit and at item six it refers to the site visit and says this claire advised that this had been a really helpful on-site meeting and that
00:24:10 really helpful on-site meeting and that subsequently we had instructed carl stakes to investigate the issues raised and produced a report collating all of the inspection and maintenance reports etc claire and janice are currently progressing the recommendations from carl's report now
00:24:24 from carl's report now as we've discussed one of carl stakes's recommendations was to ensure that rge's quarterly service of the existing aav was carried out sooner rather than later do you remember i showed you that under his conclusion yes
00:24:35 his conclusion yes did you or janice ray explain that to the lfb during this meeting um i don't remember i'm afraid was there any discussion at all about the notice
00:24:46 any discussion at all about the notice of deficiency that had been served the previous week
00:24:53 um if it's not mentioned there i think janice would have done these minutes if it's not mentioned there no we didn't talk about it
00:25:02 was there any discussion there about the need for measures to be put in place pending the full service that mr stokes had recommended or pending the cure required by the lfb
00:25:13 or pending the cure required by the lfb in their notice of deficiency
00:25:17 if it's not minuted there and i don't remember i'm afraid i can't tell is there any discussion about the emergency plan for the building pending service of the system or cure of the deficiencies
00:25:31 i don't remember but bear in mind that daniel halsey was also an attendee at both if it's not mentioned there then no because janice would have tried to
00:25:43 no because janice would have tried to make sure that everything was captured yes and if we if we look at bottom of page
00:25:48 page three under item seven it says enforcement action deficiency notices uh and then over the page uh it says with regard to grenfell tower
00:26:00 uh it says with regard to grenfell tower you can see what was said top top of page four
00:26:04 page four michael advised that the ppm contractor had provided documentation confirming the system was serviced in february 2014 and no problems were highlighted however the contract with this contractor had now ended or has now
00:26:15 contractor had now ended or has now ended we have instructed the new contractor to inspect the system and report back on any issues that need addressing in order to ensure the system was fully operational michael agreed to report back on this
00:26:29 and michael i think is michael lyons isn't it yes what was his role
00:26:37 i i i'm not sure i suspect he was a health and safety person but i i don't remember i think he was
00:26:46 was wasn't at the tmo for long and i don't remember
00:26:50 remember yeah i'm sorry i don't remember his role exactly
00:26:54 exactly right did you yourself have uh
00:27:00 was there any discussion either at this meeting or outside this meeting about whether the residents of grenfell tower should be told that the aov was not fully operational at least according to the lfb's
00:27:11 at least according to the lfb's deficiency notice um
00:27:15 no i think from this we're at a stage where
00:27:20 where we're trying to understand from our servicing contractor what the state of play is with the equipment so no i don't think anything right was um reported
00:27:32 right was um reported given that on the nfb's findings in their deficiency notice the aov system was not working or not fully working why not tell the residents of the
00:27:45 why not tell the residents of the building they lived in of that fact i think at the times i say there were anomalies as you said yourself between carl stokes report the fire brigades report and
00:27:57 report the fire brigades report and we're trying to get a decent servicing report to understand exactly what the problems are so i think it would have been premature
00:28:08 to report on something that's still a work in progress because we are trying to understand what system problems are at this stage right so at this stage march 2014
00:28:19 right so at this stage march 2014 telling the residents about the aov not working you say was premature
00:28:24 premature let's let's move forward in time then can we go
00:28:27 can we go and look back at tmo tm00856902
00:28:35 [Music] this is in september 2014 and this is an email from
00:28:44 you to janice ray fording an email chain between you and simon lawrence about the aov system at grenfell and if you look at what you're sending
00:28:56 and if you look at what you're sending janice
00:28:57 janice ray on that date 11th september 2014. that's the middle of page one you could see at the foot of that page that you're forwarding her an email from simon lawrence to you of the same day do you see that yeah so which starts hi
00:29:08 do you see that yeah so which starts hi claire at the very bottom of the page and then over the top on page two
00:29:15 he refers to forwarding comments onto js right
00:29:19 right and then in the next paragraph he says this i note from the fire notice you attached
00:29:24 attached that they had given you an ultimatum date of fifth may 2014 to get things rectified
00:29:29 rectified this was a month prior to us being on site do you know if they returned to check if the work has been had been carried out
00:29:38 and then if you go up the page in your email to janice ray if we go back to page one you uh ask the question did the fire brigade
00:29:49 ask the question did the fire brigade ever return to check the system was working i assume not exclamation mark and then she replied to you
00:29:57 you at the top of page one hi claire no lfb didn't return to check i kept hoping that the chub inspection stroke survey would happen before we were chased jay what did you understand
00:30:08 understand janice ray to mean by that um that
00:30:15 again i i believe that the the new contractor who would be taken on who has mentioned previously to do the survey looks to be chubb
00:30:27 and in dealing with them she's saying they didn't return to check so i'm taking it at face value which intended to carry out
00:30:38 intended to carry out or appointed to perhaps is the better word to carry out repairs in order to address the issues that the lfb had identified with the existing aav system
00:30:47 system in the deficiency notice i didn't deal with the servicing side so i the contracts team managed that so it looks to me that janice is expecting them to but i wouldn't have been the
00:30:58 them to but i wouldn't have been the person to
00:30:59 person to instigate it is it correct that six that by this time september 2014 so six months after the issue of the deficiency notice
00:31:10 notice the system had still not been serviced in accordance with mr stokes's
00:31:16 recommendations um i i i if this train of emails is the total information we have
00:31:25 we have yes well i mean you are the one in contact with janice ray did did you examine this further did you try to find out whether or not mr
00:31:37 try to find out whether or not mr stokes's recommendations that he put in his 18th of march letter to you had actually been carried through no i didn't because what would happen is the servicing was done by the contracts
00:31:49 the servicing was done by the contracts team janice would have been on their case
00:31:53 case she she would have checked that to keep it all moving whereas meanwhile i'm working with my consultants just to get the specification for the upgrade in place
00:32:05 in place i see i'm getting to get the impression that the
00:32:08 that the extant aov was as it were a health and safety team
00:32:16 topic or area of interest whereas you are only interested in the new aav system is that i mean that's quite a simple way of looking at it but is that actually a fair way of looking at it um bear in
00:32:28 a fair way of looking at it um bear in mind
00:32:29 mind we didn't get into contract with ride until june 14. so i
00:32:36 14. so i had no um the regeneration of the the building wasn't on site so the deficiency noticed or predates that
00:32:47 deficiency noticed or predates that had any of the steps identified in the deficiency notice been taken by 11 september 2014. um
00:32:59 11 september 2014. um again say i i have a a limited perhaps uh um sort of a watching brief on this rather than being the main
00:33:10 than being the main instigator right um because say my contract with ryden didn't start till june the 14th um and so that's why
00:33:22 um and so that's why so my efforts were more in getting the upgrade working but so i did i think over the period take a view that the system perhaps was
00:33:33 take a view that the system perhaps was in
00:33:33 in such porsche well was in poor shape and there was
00:33:37 there was um little remediation works that could be done
00:33:42 be done right had the lfb fire safety team been made aware that by this time september 14 the uh steps
00:33:53 the uh steps they recommended be taken to cure the deficiencies in their march deficiency notice had not been taken i don't know what the lsb did if they had had contact with us it would have
00:34:04 had had contact with us it would have been through janice not myself did you explore the question with janice ray
00:34:11 ray um
00:34:14 possibly intermittently but to say my main emphasis would be on getting the upgrade works done um
00:34:25 on getting the upgrade works done um because i wouldn't have seen even if service reports had been done saying it was great i wouldn't have seen them they would have gone through the contracts team and they would have gone to janus for her to forward to the fire brigades
00:34:36 forward to the fire brigades yeah but you were you are you not slightly minimizing your involvement here because we've seen your name on a number of the communications particularly with carl stokes and that
00:34:48 particularly with carl stokes and that must have been i would suggest because the aov the new aov and the old aov were matters in respect of which you had an interest as i say i i initially had a watching
00:35:02 as i say i i initially had a watching brief on it because i wasn't involved with the servicing of it i didn't deal directly with the lfb but i was going to be working on that system
00:35:13 system in future and so i needed to know the status of it right did you have any concerns this is now september 2014 about the risk to residents their life and their safety while you were waiting
00:35:25 and their safety while you were waiting for chubb to carry out the inspection to the
00:35:27 the existing aov or for the deficiencies to be cured
00:35:32 be cured um i didn't know that another inspection hadn't been done until this email i suspect
00:35:39 suspect i hadn't chased it and i didn't know it hadn't been done but i say i don't know the ins and outs of the regulatory reform act but i believe that if there was
00:35:53 but i believe that if there was an issue that was um life-threatening that the fire brigade would have placed appropriate notices on us
00:36:06 placed appropriate notices on us but i know what we did do was obviously carl stokes was doing his regular inspections and when we got on site our contractor was aware of this as you saw by this date and he was also
00:36:18 saw by this date and he was also taking that into account in his health and safety plans [Music]
00:36:23 [Music] and i i know janice will have briefed their health and safety committee as well by this point because any deficiency notices were referred to them can we go to cst 403178 please
00:36:37 can we go to cst 403178 please cst 403178
00:36:42 this is uh an email to janice ray from you on the same day 11 september 2014. it's the second email down and you say janice i just invited you to
00:36:54 and you say janice i just invited you to the smoke vent session ryden have been working with their contractor js wright and i've just asked and i have asked them and they're looking at all sorts of interim issues to see if they can get anything up and working
00:37:03 working even if the whole lot will be 100 we may need to put together a management strategy in the interview do you want to invite carl to the meeting on tuesday a.m it is before our 10am site meeting so we will have to
00:37:14 10am site meeting so we will have to keep good time
00:37:17 uh
00:37:20 it looks from that email but you're the one
00:37:24 one taking the lead on ensuring uh that there is some sort of interim system in place [Music]
00:37:34 [Music] is that right yes i've been very proactive but i'm a little bit worried as to why but yes well the why is because
00:37:45 but yes well the why is because you were interested at the outset in the aov system and you remained interested in it throughout even if you weren't the actual ultimate leader you were certainly interested and involved
00:37:56 certainly interested and involved you know yes can we well do you know whether there was in fact an interim management strategy discussed at the meeting to which you invited uh miss ray i i don't i don't remember i'm afraid no
00:38:09 i i don't i don't remember i'm afraid no do you know what was decided should be put in place uh as an interim measure
00:38:17 measure um
00:38:20 well i've talked about having car stokes doing additional um fire risk assessments and say ryden obviously one site and it was in their health and safety
00:38:32 in their health and safety plans but i don't remember if there's no minutes i'm afraid i wouldn't remember no i mean was anything put in place or was nothing put in place as an interim measure can you recall
00:38:44 um so apart from the measures i've said and obviously the esa is doing the regular visits i i don't remember anything else but no were you concerned about the fire
00:38:57 but no were you concerned about the fire safety risk at grenfell that the absence of any
00:39:00 of any interim measures which would uh bridge the gap before the new aav system was installed or the upgraded version
00:39:11 was installed or the upgraded version were you concerned about the fire risk to residents um
00:39:18 i suspect i might have um at this stage um i think if i recollect from
00:39:31 if i recollect from the progress meetings i think initially ryden had said they'd be able to get something up and going by christmas so it seemed like there might have been a time scale on it
00:39:42 a time scale on it but i believe that when we introduced the new flats that they changed the the f volume flow volumes required and so what should have been the
00:39:53 and so what should have been the solution seem to be moving a little bit so i think initially that there was talk about the system being in place up and running by christmas
00:40:04 christmas but i think that issues intervened and that that time scale then started to stretch a bit yes let's follow the story a little bit more
00:40:13 more could you go to tm00830089 please
00:40:24 could you go to tm00830089 please this is a progress meeting
00:40:28 here are the minutes 16 september 2014. so only five days or so after the email exchange we've just looked at and if we go to page uh if we go to
00:40:40 and if we go to page uh if we go to uh page
00:40:43 uh page four please section 8.3 under the heading key risks it says the aov is not working cw to ensure fire
00:40:55 the aov is not working cw to ensure fire brigade
00:40:56 brigade are up to date and then action cw which is you
00:40:59 is you [Music]
00:41:01 [Music] and then 9-2 and under any other business
00:41:04 business the aovs are currently not working ryden to try
00:41:08 to try to bring up to contracted spec asap if not possible they will return to the original spec and then 9.3 cw to keep fire brigade aware of the works to the aovs
00:41:23 now when it said aov is not working as i've shown you under paragraph 8.3 had its condition deteriorated since march 2014 do you remember i don't know sorry did
00:41:35 do you remember i don't know sorry did you keep janice ray up to date with the status of the existing aov system as well as the planned works to upgrade it i
00:41:43 it i kept her aware of the planned upgraded works yes did you and janice ray discuss or create a plan to keep the lfb informed about both the non-operation of the existing
00:41:54 both the non-operation of the existing aov system as well as the progress upgrading to a new system we did through those bi-monthly meetings with the fire brigade yes right so they would have to wait up to
00:42:05 right so they would have to wait up to eight weeks before you would update the nfb against um they could have asked us they would have had they could have done but did you actually proactively keep them informed about the matters identified here
00:42:20 the way that work site progress moves i think two monthly would mean that there wouldn't be much change within a two-month period so two monthly was
00:42:29 was probably more appropriate did you i mean to be fair to you the the next bi-monthly meeting was actually two days later
00:42:38 later um i'm assuming that you didn't update the lfb before that meeting um i didn't if they'd run janice you would have told them but right
00:42:50 would have told them but right we'll come to that meeting in a moment um
00:42:53 um at this point we're now mid-september 2014. and you told us earlier that telling them in march about the deficiency notice would have been premature
00:43:03 premature did you at this stage discuss or devise a plan to keep the residents informed about the aov system at this point
00:43:12 point um i think at this point because the program from ryden showed that they would be all up and working by christmas so um i think we probably didn't know
00:43:24 so um i think we probably didn't know why not because it was a comparatively short time scale people did have their own um many flats had their own um fire alarm systems
00:43:36 had their own um fire alarm systems um and so no i i don't think we even discussed it i'm afraid i mean the notice of deficiency was now some six months old
00:43:47 six months old the date for cure had passed many months before
00:43:51 before why not just circular circularize the residents
00:43:54 residents and tell them the aov system is not working
00:43:57 working we're working urgently on an upgrade or an interim measure why not do that um i think when you give residents information they need a start and an end
00:44:11 at the moment it seems that ryden had said that they were trying to bring it up
00:44:16 up to contracted spec assaf if not their return so
00:44:19 return so there was no end date on it if you give people information without a start and an end it's if you then move the end date it's
00:44:30 it's if you then move the end date it's um it's you know causes more aggravation and at this stage we had no end date so that's why you wouldn't tell people did you actually discuss and decide
00:44:41 you actually discuss and decide not to tell the residents about the then condition of the aov i don't think we ever discussed how we
00:44:52 i don't think we ever discussed how we were going to manage it in terms of resident information
00:44:58 so your evidence is that this question of communicating with the residents the current the then current condition of the aov
00:45:05 the aov simply never a raise for discussion at all no i i don't remember i'm sorry i'm i'm just interested to know why that was given that the aov was one of
00:45:17 given that the aov was one of the active fire prevention measures for the safety of every resident in the building
00:45:23 building isn't it yes no she said i i don't consciously remember personally any reason why we wouldn't or any discussion
00:45:34 why we wouldn't or any discussion that we had about it well you've given us a reason why you wouldn't and that's to do with end dates perhaps moving back but i think you're saying that you
00:45:45 but i think you're saying that you didn't even get that far you didn't even have a discussion about whether you should tell the residents about um the inoperability of one of the active uh prevention measures
00:45:57 one of the active uh prevention measures in the building yeah no so i i i don't remember having the conversation it so usually everything i did was documented in some shape or form but i don't think that we we talked
00:46:09 but i don't think that we we talked about it
00:46:10 about it but i i think at this point it still seems to be a bit of a moving target to me
00:46:15 me um looking at the systems for a moment at keeping the lfb informed that would obviously take place at the bi-monthly meetings
00:46:25 meetings with the hammersmith fulham kensington and chelsea fire safety team yes yes yes and who was it who was expected to update them um
00:46:39 janice was the main coordination person for the lfb she arranged the bi-monthly meetings they would get she would be their go-to
00:46:50 they would get she would be their go-to person if they had any fire queries i see and what about you was was it your or part of your responsibility also to update them um i think it was easier to go through
00:47:03 um i think it was easier to go through janice because obviously she had the deficiency notice for example in this instance and then she could keep them up to date
00:47:13 what about local fire crews um whose responsibility was it to update the local fire crews on matters affecting grenfell tower um again i would assume the fire brigade
00:47:25 again i would assume the fire brigade attendees at the bi-monthly meeting but also bear in mind at grenfell i suspect because of their knowledge of our
00:47:33 our situation that all the watches attended at grenfell several times and also they were still doing their um random fire alarm checks
00:47:45 random fire alarm checks so ryden spoke a lot to the fire brigade on site
00:47:49 on site the fire brigade generally turned up on an ad hoc basis when they they were out on calls so they never made an appointment to go there which i could have attended
00:48:01 there which i could have attended because
00:48:01 because they literally turned up when they had availability can we please have tmo one double zero two three three six four please
00:48:12 this is the minute of the bi-monthly meeting with the lfb fire safety team held on the 18th of september 2014 as you can see only mr dada boy was there on that occasion
00:48:23 there on that occasion uh michael lyons and dan hales he sent their apologies and if you go to page three in that document
00:48:32 document you'll see uh there uh third paragraph down this is part of section six um claire also advised that the ventilation stroke extraction system in the communal
00:48:43 the communal lobbies is to be upgraded stroke refurbished as part of the project this work is being prioritized and plans are currently being finalized sahel requested a time scale and claire advised that we were hoping this would be completed by christmas
00:48:55 be completed by christmas claire highlighted that whilst works were being undertaken the system would not be working at full capacity this had been brought to coal states stage's attention and he will be working closely with ryden's to undertake a review of the fra early
00:49:06 to undertake a review of the fra early next week
00:49:07 next week in order to reduce the fire safety risks while the works are being undertaken the contractor has given a commitment that no hot works will be undertaken care will be taken to control dust operatives will be made aware of any interim measures and their work will be
00:49:19 interim measures and their work will be closely monitored now um just on the first part of that paragraph did either you or janice ray explain to the lfb that the existing aov system was currently
00:49:31 system was currently not working as we saw in the progress meeting minutes of the 16th of september
00:49:40 i am not sure of the previous communications that janice might have had or been in any previous meetings but it was the fire brigade who'd
00:49:51 brigade who'd given us the deficiency notice so i would assume that their system would flag up
00:49:57 flag up but i say that's not to say that other conversations weren't had between us but i would expect that their system would be flagging up about the the deficiency notice because there was definitely
00:50:09 definitely discussion over the fact they'd be wearing they'd bring um breathing masks if there was any fire in the building they said they'd come with breathing apparatus so they were aware of it well we saw we can
00:50:22 they were aware of it well we saw we can go back to it if you like miss williams but we saw that the progress meeting there was an action
00:50:27 action note that you were going to tell the lfb that the aov was not working simple i asked you about when that was going to happen and i think i understood your
00:50:39 happen and i think i understood your evidence
00:50:39 evidence says at the bi-monthly meeting well here is the next bi-monthly meeting two days later
00:50:45 later uh and uh i i i don't see in it uh anywhere a reference to the fact that the aov system is not working there's reference to it being under
00:50:57 being under upgraded refurbished with a time scale but no reference to the fact that it's not working can you explain that um i don't know whether it's a shortfalling
00:51:09 i don't know whether it's a shortfalling in or the way that the minutes were phrased but i say the fire brigade know themselves there's a deficiency notice on this system so
00:51:19 system so um you know that they're not totally blind to the issue no but you see
00:51:25 see it had been agreed at the previous meeting two days before that you would tell the lfb that the aov wasn't working there's no reference in this minute of that meeting to the fact that you did that did you do
00:51:37 to the fact that you did that did you do that
00:51:38 that so what we said verbally and what was minuted
00:51:41 minuted is now a bit of a concern but i think if you look at subsequent notes does it not say that well i'm asking you
00:51:52 does it not say that well i'm asking you look going on this minute to refresh your recollection we see no reference there to you telling the lfb that the aov system wasn't working now i you may tell me that the minute is
00:52:03 now i you may tell me that the minute is inaccurate but do you have an independent recollection that you did actually tell the lfb that the aov system wasn't working as you had
00:52:11 you had undertaken to do at the previous meeting yeah now i would expect i would have said that because it's a very straightforward issue it is not working we are upgrading it right but as you say the minutes don't say
00:52:22 but as you say the minutes don't say that do that sorry to interrupt you mr miller just just help me with this the first four lines five lines of this paragraph are concerned with the uh with the smoke extraction
00:52:35 with the uh with the smoke extraction system
00:52:36 system yeah um you say it's being upgraded and line four claire highlighted that while the works were being undertaken the system would not be working at full
00:52:47 the system would not be working at full capacity
00:52:49 capacity that suggests to me at least that the impression given to the lfb was that work will be done to the system which will be
00:52:57 will be partly in operation uh until whenever it's finished say christmas is is that what they were told um at the time ryden's program did show they'd be finished you know you're
00:53:08 they'd be finished you know you're missing my point sorry my point is that lines four to five suggests that the system would be working but not at full capacity
00:53:18 capacity which is not the same as saying to them the system is not working now i wonder whether you could just comment on that yeah no i take your point
00:53:26 point that the
00:53:28 that the [Music]
00:53:30 [Music] the minutes do not
00:53:33 um reflect what would have been said accurately enough
00:53:40 enough i think it's clear that i said that what we're interested is what can you recall about what was said
00:53:47 said not what would have been said or might have been said yeah no i i would have no reason not to say the system is not working we have a deficiency notice on it because the fire
00:53:58 deficiency notice on it because the fire brigade should already know that so i i think this minute perhaps puts a force a rosy position on it whereas
00:54:11 force a rosy position on it whereas clearly it wasn't working and i think i would have been clear that it wasn't working janice knew it wasn't working the fire
00:54:23 janice knew it wasn't working the fire brigade knew it wasn't working so i i i think the minute so has got a slightly rosy complexion on a system that wasn't working thank you and i can't account for it um
00:54:36 thank you and i can't account for it um well you say it was placing a slightly rosy complexion on a system that wasn't working
00:54:42 working one possibility miss williams that i'd invite you to contemplate is that you and or you or janice ray allowed the lfb to have a rosier picture
00:54:56 to have a rosier picture of the aov system then was in fact the case
00:55:00 case um i think that sue hale um i think he had a specialist sort of role
00:55:11 i think he had a specialist sort of role trying to think what it was i don't think he led a watch i thought he was more a specific foreign emergency sort of chap
00:55:21 chap he i don't know whether he asked questions about how we were going to do it
00:55:27 it but the extent of the work and if you knew that system you would know it would be hard to do a temporary fix on it so i you know i don't remember at the
00:55:39 so i you know i don't remember at the time if there was any more in-depth conversation about what it entailed because i know at some point we talked
00:55:52 because i know at some point we talked about
00:55:53 about this airflow thing and there was a an issue
00:55:56 issue from building control as well they wanted computerized simulations of airflow or whether they'd accept hand hand computed calculations
00:56:07 hand computed calculations now looking at the last line there you can say you can see that it says operatives will be made aware of any interim measures and their work will be closely monitored what were
00:56:16 what were the interim measures or any injury measures that were implemented um i think it was about ryden's health and safety plans
00:56:30 talked about
00:56:34 keeping the areas clear of
00:56:38 building waste while they were working working in a tidy way it might have been about
00:56:46 about cut cutting um timber for example for the cupboard doors in the communal areas um well i mean
00:56:57 um well i mean housekeeping and um neat working health and safety measures are doing their work right why were those interim measures which would take the place of a fully
00:57:08 which would take the place of a fully operating aov system
00:57:11 i'd expect them to take place whether the arv system was operating or not but i think they were just the contractors had stressed that they would they were aware of this and this is what they would do
00:57:22 is what they would do i would expect them to do this anyway did the lfb
00:57:27 approve of any interim measures to be taken pending the repair or upgrade of the aov
00:57:35 i don't know that they asked and i don't know
00:57:39 know what we would what we gave them if they had asked that nobody had asked me about that no but but you say you don't know whether
00:57:46 whether they asked would it not be for you as the responsible person you the tmo that is the responsible person to keep them informed
00:57:56 um yes it would be but to say i don't know
00:57:59 know there might be background correspondence which i'm not aware of can we go to tm00851824 please this is an email you sent to simon
00:58:10 this is an email you sent to simon lawrence the same day 18th of september 2014 after that meeting
00:58:19 simon won windows and i don't need to trouble you with that two fire brigade we had our bi-monthly meeting with fiber again rolled out the two issues and then and then at the bottom of the
00:58:30 and then and then at the bottom of the screen hey we're working on the smoke vents and the system will not be fully operational until after christmas they asked that this was covered in your risk assessments as well as in our building
00:58:41 assessments as well as in our building fra
00:58:42 fra i said that you would be clear with the watches who visit you too but they are fully conversant with the fact that they may find flaws of smoke as our discussion of tuesday please make sure all these actions happen
00:58:55 sure all these actions happen did you follow this up to ensure that the local fire safety crews had been informed
00:59:00 informed um we i'd say one i didn't know when they were the local fire safety people were going round but ryden did have um long conversations with them and they
00:59:12 um long conversations with them and they they talked to all of the crews so obviously i wasn't party to that so i would hope they would have mentioned this because they did
00:59:20 they did feedback to me when they had had the fire brigade round now can we go to tmo double zero eight five one eight four four please
00:59:37 this is an email from you to janice ray copying alex bosman on the 6th of october 2014.
00:59:45 uh towards the bottom of page one and over on to page two janice i spoke to ryden they were aware of our discussion with the fire brigade i.e the smake vent system is not working while it is being worked on and that by christmas they hope to have
00:59:56 and that by christmas they hope to have the smoke vent system in some sort of order
00:59:58 order however the new extractor fans in the roof plant room would probably not be fitted
01:00:02 fitted as it is likely that they will still be awaiting building regs approval they have no program for these works yet but have a design team meeting tomorrow which they hope to progress this further
01:00:13 which they hope to progress this further i asked for a program of the above works but that is not yet in place so this is an interim update until we have further firm information
01:00:24 and then if you go back to page one please and look at janice ray's response to you uh she comes back to you the same day
01:00:31 day hi claire do they advise of any steps they can take to even partially reinstate the ventilation stroke extraction system in the short term before it's refurbished please advise thanks janice
01:00:44 so she it looks from that is that she's looking to you for to take the lead uh on keeping her informed
01:00:52 informed about what steps could be taken to put in place an interim solution is that fair
01:01:01 that fair um yeah she's asking yeah yeah and if we go to cst four zeroes one two four four we see the story develops 9th of october 2014.
01:01:13 2014. this is alex bosman and we'll have to enlarge it on the screen if we can please alex bozeman emails janice ray and you
01:01:24 janice ray and you uh i think we want the second email done in fact on page one please that's it uh and uh he says hi carl matthew and
01:01:35 uh and uh he says hi carl matthew and greg
01:01:36 greg and this is an email which you you can see you get from the email at the top of page one um but i'll just show you what he says um under the heading smoke extract
01:01:47 um under the heading smoke extract just below or just towards the bottom of the screen it says smoke extract i understand a visit was carried out on 6th october 2014 this system has been confirmed as beyond repair that is scheduled for replacement
01:01:59 repair that is scheduled for replacement shortly no further action required and as i say ms williams if we can scroll to the top of page one we see you get this email the same day from alex bosman who
01:02:10 alex bosman who forwards it on to you you see that yes now having previously told the lfb that you'd hoped that the upgrade to the aov would be completed before christmas 2014 did either you or janice
01:02:23 christmas 2014 did either you or janice ray
01:02:24 ray notify the lfb at this stage that that would not be likely to be achieved
01:02:33 i i would only know by looking at the the bi-monthly meeting minutes i i i think we we had to just keep them updated so we would have said yes but this is now saying by christmas
01:02:47 but this is now saying by christmas um that
01:02:51 um that perhaps the passive part of the system will be in place and so rather than the extract fans the mechanical side of it was which is sort of the second phase right now
01:03:04 right now the next bi-monthly meeting would happen is this right in the middle of november so some six weeks after this so do you remember telling the lfb before that
01:03:17 telling the lfb before that once you've seen this message from alex bosman
01:03:20 bosman that the aov system was beyond repair and had to be replaced um no i didn't tell them in the interim i don't know if janice did do you know why that is
01:03:31 why that is um no i don't know if no i don't know but i wouldn't have told them anyway so janice may have updated them but i didn't i see so is this right that you now had a gap
01:03:44 so is this right that you now had a gap in your fire safety systems for the building that wasn't going to be filled for some months at the least uh did you and janice then discuss an interim plan to ensure the safety of the
01:03:56 interim plan to ensure the safety of the residents in case of a fire
01:04:00 no i i don't remember that we did apart from fact
01:04:03 from fact say the mitigating things that were in place which is you know riding being aware of it as they were
01:04:11 they were there making sure their contractors didn't um
01:04:15 didn't um do anything untoward and also carl stokes's additional um visits those are the things that i'm aware of but i can't think of
01:04:27 that i'm aware of but i can't think of anything else at this point now so this is second week in october now that you're told uh that the system was beyond repair and was scheduled for replacement and
01:04:39 and was scheduled for replacement and that that wasn't going to happen until after christmas did you discuss with janice ray telling the residents of the tower that there would be no functioning aov
01:04:52 that there would be no functioning aov system
01:04:53 system until those upgrade works were completed no i don't remember discussing it with janice at all why is that no i i don't know now as you look back maybe you would have but um as i say i
01:05:06 maybe you would have but um as i say i think
01:05:07 think it seems to me that there were issues with
01:05:11 with getting the approval from building control
01:05:14 control it seemed to say new issues came up as we were working on the designs
01:05:23 designs so it did seem something that was um
01:05:28 not any an easy thing to solve and i don't remember i was talking about how we um deal with this with residents so no
01:05:39 so no you see at this stage you're putting out monthly regeneration newsletters to residents would it not have been the easiest thing in the world to include in each of those regeneration
01:05:51 to include in each of those regeneration newsletters a short item saying you should be aware that the aov system
01:05:57 system is not working at all or not working properly
01:06:00 properly it has to be upgraded the upgrade won't happen for a number of months we don't know when we'll keep you posted but please be very careful in the meantime
01:06:08 meantime is there a reason why you you didn't do that
01:06:12 that um no the only thing i can think of in terms of why we didn't do that as i say it seems still to be a moving item that there was no
01:06:24 to be a moving item that there was no all the time ryden are talking to building control we we have no resolution because say as i recollect the issue was with these increased airflows it meant bigger fans
01:06:36 increased airflows it meant bigger fans up in um in the in the roof i don't know about the ones lower down i don't know whether they were increased in size but that there were lots of solutions that need to be arrived at one thing we
01:06:48 that need to be arrived at one thing we had to do is we had to um make a hole in the floor slab to make a new service duct and that had its own structural implications so there were lots of things going on in
01:06:59 so there were lots of things going on in terms of the design the design wasn't um sorted or approved for a little while and i think
01:07:11 it took quite a long time to get to the resolution so um i i don't i'd say i don't remember discussing with janice putting it in the newsletter or even how
01:07:22 putting it in the newsletter or even how he managed as an interim way apart from the fact that i knew that things were in place as i say in terms of car stocks extra visits etc i know you may not be able to speak for janice ray's thoughts but so far as your
01:07:34 janice ray's thoughts but so far as your thoughts were concerned did it not occur to you that it was important for the residents of grenfell tower to know that one of the major active fire prevention mechanisms in the building wasn't
01:07:45 mechanisms in the building wasn't working
01:07:47 working i think as i sit here now again hindsight is a great thing it is something that we could have told people about
01:07:53 about but we didn't i think you know there were other systems within the building there were um fire alarms in people's
01:08:04 there were um fire alarms in people's own flats and i think there was a comment here from alex saying that the fire alarm system was working so that the building wasn't totally unprotected but i do take your point that we could have made mention of it
01:08:21 can we go to tm0085 please this takes us into mid-november 2014. this is an email from you to simon o'connor on the
01:08:33 email from you to simon o'connor on the 12th of november
01:08:37 it starts in fact on page three which is where i think we need to go
01:08:45 and there you you can see that you email simon o'connor and ask him for an update on the aov at grenfell in preparation for
01:08:54 for a meeting with the lfb the next day see that yes
01:08:57 that yes and simon connor copied in simon lawrence to that into his response if you go up to the bottom of
01:09:04 bottom of uh page or top of page two uh you can sorry bottom of page two forgive me you can see he copies simon lawrence in and says probably best that simon l responds to
01:09:15 probably best that simon l responds to this as he's leading the design on this item
01:09:17 item and then if you go up to page one please bottom of page one you can see that uh simon lawrence comes back to you the next day 13th november
01:09:28 next day 13th november over to the top of page two morning claire as per our conversation at tuesday's meeting our m e design team has been working hard on finding a solution to the aov situation where we can urgently install now to get
01:09:40 where we can urgently install now to get grenfell some protection asap we are trying not to carry out any costly abortive works but are trying to install a part system now then upgrade in the following months so far out of the four different specialists we've approached only one
01:09:52 specialists we've approached only one feels that they are able to carry out the works to this method so no works are abortive
01:09:56 abortive we are currently arranging a meeting with our specialists and building control
01:10:00 control to ensure everyone is in agreement with the proposed design in our initial meeting with janice and carl i said that we would aim to get a part system operational by christmas we're still doing our best to achieve this but the early feedback from the
01:10:11 this but the early feedback from the specialists on tuesday is that it's unlikely to be before christmas however i'm waiting their response to tell me when i can let you where to tell me when i'll let you know as soon as i have more some more news in the meantime you still
01:10:22 some more news in the meantime you still only have the existing smoke detector and visual fire panel alarm covering the building
01:10:30 building and we can see that you then forward that on
01:10:34 that on if we go up page to page one please you forwarded that on to janus later that same day jan is sorry in
01:10:47 later that same day jan is sorry in training and then he just picked this up you see that uh and i'll come back to her response in a moment
01:10:58 moment i just want to look in parallel what was happening in the bi-monthly meeting
01:11:05 meeting which was the same day if we go to lfb 30s 84118
01:11:10 30s 84118 please
01:11:13 please go to page one in that here is the 13th november 2014 bi-monthly meeting notes present from the lfb were so rebecca burton and terry chaplin
01:11:25 so rebecca burton and terry chaplin covering for dan halesey and janice ray you send your apologies maybe because you're in training now if we go to the top of page two we can see that janice ray provided
01:11:36 two we can see that janice ray provided an update
01:11:37 an update on grenfell tower you can see the bullet point there grenfell tower janus advised that our fire consultant had now completed a review of the fra for this block this has been undertaken in close liaison with the principal
01:11:49 in close liaison with the principal contractor ryden's and can be made available to the lfb janus advised that riders were finding the local lfb crews regular familiarization visits to the tower to be really helpful
01:12:02 now i know you weren't there did you see the minute of this bi-monthly meeting after it happened um
01:12:11 um [Music]
01:12:14 [Music] yes i would have did you notice when you did look at it that there was no reference in here or so it seems to any update
01:12:22 update about the aov system in the tower um no i i didn't but i wonder if janice sent
01:12:29 sent it on afterwards
01:12:33 because she might have done these minutes because the meeting was 9 30 in the morning so she might have got it out quickly
01:12:39 quickly but if even if she hadn't she she could have forwarded my email subsequently yes well you've just anticipated my next two questions it is right to say that she didn't have the update from simon lawrence until after the meeting looking
01:12:50 lawrence until after the meeting looking at the timings so the question is did either of you then forward that update to the lfb after this meeting um i didn't but janice mayhem do you know whether she did or not i don't know if she's right
01:13:02 if she's right well then going back to your emails then if we can tm00852028 please page one uh you can see she says there in response to you
01:13:13 response to you thanks grateful for you keeping me in the loop
01:13:16 the loop fortunately the lfb did not raise any specific issues on grenfell what did you understand her response
01:13:24 response to mean there
01:13:28 that she said that they they didn't perhaps look at the last set of minutes to ask any questions um but they obviously hadn't got any
01:13:40 um but they obviously hadn't got any questions to raise did you understand her to mean that she was only going to update the lfb if they specifically asked about the aov or the notice of deficiency
01:13:52 or the notice of deficiency um no janice would try and put it all on the table
01:13:55 the table so um
01:13:59 so no i i i don't think she would do that in a negative way she wanted to tell them as much information as possible so i see that's why i think she would have forwarded my email because it would be
01:14:10 forwarded my email because it would be the easiest way to keep it moving very well
01:14:16 did yourself take steps to ensure that janice ray did keep the lfb in the loop as it were about the specific problem with the aov events at grenfell
01:14:28 events at grenfell that you had been told about that morning
01:14:31 morning by simon lawrence no i didn't monitor janice's workload given that what mr lawrence was telling you
01:14:40 you was firmly within your remit as the project manager for the tmo for the project why didn't you make sure that the lfb
01:14:52 why didn't you make sure that the lfb were aware of what simon lawrence was telling you as i say
01:14:57 as i say janice is a conscientious worker if she had that information she would pass that on
01:15:04 on yes my question was different but she may have been a conscientious worker but why did you leave that task of telling the lfb to her given that it fell within your remit um
01:15:15 given that it fell within your remit um it was janice was the main liaison point for the
01:15:19 for the lfb um janice was capable of passing on an email and would have done i i don't monitor janice's workload
01:15:31 mr chairman is that a convenient moment we're in the middle of the line of examination but we're going to go to a different document yes well if that's convenient to you i think it's a good time to have a break
01:15:42 think it's a good time to have a break i'll have an afternoon break now miss williams uh back at half past three please
01:15:46 please and don't talk to anyone about your evidence while they're out of the room all right thank you very much
01:15:57 thank you huff us three
01:31:15 i said you asked ms williams to come back in please
01:31:34 all right ready to carry on miss williams yes thank you yes yes mr chairman thank you um ms williams can we please go back to tm00830
01:31:46 which is the minute of the 16th of september
01:31:50 september 2014 progress meeting
01:31:55 and if we get back please to item 8.3
01:32:02 item 8.3 which we saw in that document on page four where it says the aov is not working
01:32:08 working cw to ensure fire brigade are up to date
01:32:14 we've seen no record either in a minute of the bi-monthly meetings or any of the emails
01:32:20 emails which shows that you did tell the fire brigade that the aovs were not working
01:32:30 we have seen the minute of the 18th of september bi-monthly meeting where we you
01:32:37 you where what was given to them was as you put it yourself a rosy picture and i have to suggest to you in blunt terms that the tmo was not being candid with the enforcement authority about the
01:32:49 with the enforcement authority about the true state of the aov at grenfell do you accept that i i believe the the verbal discussions we had
01:32:58 we had we said it wasn't working but as you look at the minutes i have to agree with you that it said that it's being upgraded it doesn't say the minutes you have shown me does not say in words one
01:33:10 shown me does not say in words one syllable it's not working and i would suggest to you that you weren't being candid with the lfb because you did not want them
01:33:20 them to turn their deficiency notice into an enforcement notice um i i don't know how that system works but um
01:33:32 how that system works but um i had looked at those minutes at the time and i thought we've explained to them but the minutes don't say
01:33:40 don't say i have to say that you know as i've just said that the minutes don't say the aov isn't working but i believe we did have discussion with them verbal discussion and say the fire brigade watches were
01:33:54 and say the fire brigade watches were all told it wasn't working by ryden's so i think there is a
01:34:01 an issue with the minutes because they don't say what i would like to them to have said even though we may have said it verbally to them did you do the best of your election uh recollection do you ever recall anybody
01:34:13 recollection do you ever recall anybody at the tmo telling the lfb that the steps that they required to be taken in their deficiency notice of the 24th of march 2014 had not been carried out sorry can you
01:34:24 had not been carried out sorry can you say that again do you recall to the best of your recollection whether anybody at the tma ever told the lfb that the steps that they required to be taken in their 24th of march 2014 notice of
01:34:36 in their 24th of march 2014 notice of deficiency had not been carried out um i did not tell them
01:34:41 tell them i don't know what um went from janice ray
01:34:45 ray who the notice would have gone to no and i would suggest that if nobody else told them then that was because
01:34:55 because the tmo did not want the lfb to know that the steps identified in their deficiency notice had not been carried out um that is not true
01:35:05 true because clearly ryden knew ryden we'd asked them to talk to the fire brigade to make sure they were clear so the fire brigade were being told on site that that was the case
01:35:17 site that that was the case i believe we told them in the meetings but as they're minuted it doesn't read that way
01:35:22 that way but also the fire brigade knew there was a deficiency notice so again their organization had that information so i don't quite know why they didn't follow it up
01:35:33 follow it up now at about this time uh late october 2014 uh do you remember that edward de farn requested minutes of the tmo's progress
01:35:44 requested minutes of the tmo's progress meetings
01:35:45 meetings with the um the contractor the architect and the council do you remember that um i i know he did ask i don't know what time scale
01:36:00 let's look at tmo double zero eight five one nine one three please
01:36:09 and i'd like to go to page three in that document
01:36:22 this is edward defon's email to siobhan rumble copy to you on the 30th of october 2014. dear siobhan i'm writing to you using freedom of information legislation please could you provide me with the tmos minutes from the end of month
01:36:34 tmos minutes from the end of month meetings that are held to discuss the building works at grenfell tower and that may include input from the tmo rydens and studio e please can you provide evidence that the issue of asbestos in grenfell tower is being dealt with by the contractor
01:36:45 being dealt with by the contractor rydens
01:36:46 rydens and provide evidence that the tmo have informed the building contractor the presence of asbestos in our properties could you please could you also
01:36:53 also provide me with minutes of any meetings between the tmo and rbkc council that discussed the building works at grenfell tower i would expect to be provided with minutes from any scrutiny meetings and also any correspondence between rbkc planning
01:37:05 any correspondence between rbkc planning department and the tmo finally please can you put in writing why the tma think it's acceptable that the front entry door to grenfell tower has remained broken for many weeks now despite numerous requests for it to be fixed
01:37:16 requests for it to be fixed do the tmo not have an obligation to fix such repairs within 24 hours if they are a health and safety issue and we can see if you go up to the next page up page two
01:37:32 you send this on uh on on the 31st of october the next day to follow caffidia copy to sean rumble david gibson and janice ray and also roger keane at the council
01:37:46 roger keane at the council and you say in item one tma monthly progress meetings these are commercially sensitive and not available to residents could you please send me this minutes as i will be deter
01:37:57 i will be deter determining if it is indeed commercially sensitive is my responsibilities for freedom of information requests
01:38:05 and then at the end please can i have a copy of your response as you'll appreciate we are trying to ensure consistency you see that yes
01:38:21 and then if you go next please uh to page one the top of this email chain
01:38:33 uh in response to failure cathedral coming back to you with notes uh you say hi photo the monthly meetings cover many issues some of them are more commercially
01:38:44 of them are more commercially sensitive than others as the scheme is over a year's length i'd not want to be copying you into every set of minutes so you can decide whether or not that particular meeting contains sensitive information a typical example in this month's meeting showed shows that the building
01:38:56 meeting showed shows that the building contract is not yet signed but in the flats there is asbestos left which will be managed quotes on quotes and issues taken up with the fire brigade over the smoke detection system all of these could cause mr default to raise more queries either on his blog
01:39:09 raise more queries either on his blog or via further foi requests
01:39:14 now why were you concerned about mr defan raising more queries either on his blog or via further foi requests
01:39:24 requests in response to issues taken up with the fire brigade over smoke detection
01:39:30 um as as i've said all of these could cause mr
01:39:34 cause mr defan to raise more queries it wasn't any one item it was every issue that was raised could could mean that we get
01:39:45 could mean that we get more correspondence or more blog exposure
01:39:50 exposure was your primary motivation in refusing disclosure of these minutes to prevent resident scrutiny over the health and safety issues that mr defarm was querying no i think i i've
01:40:03 was querying no i think i i've been clear that the commercial sensitivity there was money costs of this and that all included in the minutes and i think
01:40:14 all included in the minutes and i think the previous email you showed me one of foala's comments was in the first item she'd said could you send me copies of these to see one of her sentences at the end of mine
01:40:26 one of her sentences at the end of mine it wasn't distinguished by color or typeface yes i see page two that is the first time i say yeah it's her line saying could you send me copy so that she can determine
01:40:36 determine so i said i felt that they were commercially sensitive but our company secretary said send me some so that i can understand if they are commercially sensitive because she had to respond to the
01:40:47 because she had to respond to the freedom of information request so she wanted to check herself what i said whether that was appropriate in terms of the foi status just to be clear on this
01:41:01 foi status just to be clear on this am i right in thinking that it wasn't commercial sensitivity which meant that you didn't bring the residents up
01:41:12 that you didn't bring the residents up to date about the present condition of the aov system no they're totally disparate subjects now can we go then on in time in november 2014
01:41:26 on in time in november 2014 tmo 1 triple zero 8792 please
01:41:35 this is a meeting of the tmo health and safety operations committee and you're not recorded as having
01:41:44 attended and at the bottom of page one we can see that there's an item grenfell tower fire safety
01:41:52 janice ray appears to have provided an update
01:41:55 update here on fire safety in the building she says jw confirmed that the tma were looking to ensure that we integrate the most fast
01:42:01 most fast the most recent fire safety kit lfb are not engaging with eddie defan and then over the page
01:42:10 rydens have done everything nfb have asked them to do in regards to the events rydens were sourcing a contractor to get the works done as soon as possible
01:42:18 possible it's likely to be after christmas writings have explained to lfp that the system is beyond economical repairs and the lfb are aware to be appropriately equipped when arriving to deal with fires
01:42:29 arriving to deal with fires did you or do you know who ryden had told
01:42:33 told the lfb that the existing aov system was beyond repair um i i would only know by the reference to the previous email you showed us
01:42:44 the previous email you showed us and i don't know i can't remember exactly the phraseology in that right
01:42:52 at this point do you know or did you know what the lfb's response to being told that was in view of the deficiency notice having
01:43:03 in view of the deficiency notice having required the aov system to be maintained as operational by the 5th of may 2014. no
01:43:12 did you see these minutes after um no i i
01:43:16 i this wasn't a meeting that i ever attended and i didn't see them in it right were you aware generally that ryden told the lfb that the system was beyond economical repair
01:43:27 repair um i believe they had frank and forthright discussions yes you say you believe that you believe that what was the what's what is the source of that belief um simon lawrence
01:43:39 um simon lawrence simon o'connor would say they they walk them around to the building and talk them through the problems so or issues maybe promise not the right word
01:43:50 issues maybe promise not the right word who told you that um they they did and also it would be mentioned in the
01:43:57 in the the progress meeting minutes usually i'd get an email from simon lance or simon o'connor just saying oh the fire brigade have been here
01:44:05 here because they say they they did attend one and as they could right let's go on then tmo double zero eight five seven eight six five uh this is the minute of a
01:44:16 six five uh this is the minute of a grenfell tower project group meeting on the second of december 2014
01:44:26 and we could see that you were in attendance as well as peter madison you see that yes and if you go to item 7 you can see that you confirmed that the lfb are aware that the smoke vents are not fully functioning
01:44:38 not fully functioning not fully functioning what was that a reference to
01:44:46 um i think it's my my my words to say that the smoke system wasn't working
01:44:57 the smoke system wasn't working but there was still the um the two areas that mentioned before that were functioning the fire alarm system and the panel you see this also puts a rosy glow
01:45:09 you see this also puts a rosy glow on it doesn't it this doesn't say smoke vents not working you're confirming that the lfb were aware that the smoke events were not fully functioning and that's consistent
01:45:20 fully functioning and that's consistent isn't it
01:45:21 isn't it with the bi-monthly meeting in september the 18th of september which we looked at in which the chairman asked you questions about so the question is if in fact the minutes don't reflect what was actually said to the lfb why were you confirming
01:45:33 said to the lfb why were you confirming uh on the 2nd of december that the lfb had been told that the smoke events were not
01:45:37 not fully functioning um i i think i wrote these minutes and i think they were not functioning
01:45:49 i think they were not functioning but i don't know if oh no no i wrote these and it doesn't read as i would take out the word fully if i had um
01:45:58 um [Music]
01:46:00 [Music] why did you put it in no it's it's just um so just a word that crept in that isn't concise and say potentially not
01:46:13 isn't concise and say potentially not true
01:46:13 true so that was my my wording and i worded it wrongly i would say
01:46:27 worded it wrongly i would say when you say you worded it wrongly is is the reality that in fact you were gilding the lily to the lfb and were now guilting the lily to other people in the tmo no that's not true one there's no reason
01:46:38 no that's not true one there's no reason why we shouldn't be straightforward with everybody there's no benefit from trying to hide anything the fire brigade had been on site they were aware of the situation
01:46:49 were aware of the situation they'd issued a deficiency notice um i think that and so the the fire brigade meeting minutes
01:47:01 the the fire brigade meeting minutes perhaps miss phrased as this word fully shouldn't be in there i don't think there's any attempt to cover up i think it's more um just
01:47:12 um just poor wording i would say the five again do know so please don't think otherwise tmo double zero eight five seven eight
01:47:24 tmo double zero eight five seven eight one seven
01:47:26 one seven your email to janice ray on the 11th of december 2014 with a further update about the aov system and you say
01:47:38 uh in the last paragraph it is clear now that work won't start until the new year as works are dependent on how quickly the building control team can turn around the application and janice ray replies to you and she
01:47:52 and janice ray replies to you and she says
01:47:53 says thanks claire let's hope our luck holds and there are no fires in the meantime when will the main door be secured and leave aside the main door when she
01:48:04 and leave aside the main door when she said
01:48:05 said let's hope our luck holds and there are no fires in the meantime what did you understand her to mean by that
01:48:14 that um i think we were both conscious that the movement on this was quite slow and this to me is her
01:48:26 and this to me is her perhaps doing me a nudge to say keep
01:48:30 chasing did you tell the lfb that works now won't start until the new year
01:48:39 um we had our next bi-monthly meeting so i know we did report about the time frame moving
01:48:50 the next monthly meeting was on the 20th of january wasn't it some six weeks after this right
01:49:02 did you think that hoping your luck holds and there are no fires in the meantime
01:49:09 meantime was a safe way of proceeding safe from the resident's point of view
01:49:15 um i i don't know i read it like that perhaps looking at it now i maybe would but at the time i just thought she was
01:49:26 thought she was saying to me keep chasing it because we were both aware that it had gone on a long time and there was um despite best intentions there was no immediate resolution i mean do you think
01:49:40 immediate resolution i mean do you think did you think at the time that hoping your luck would hold a sort of fingers crossed attitude was really an appropriate way of discharging your health and safety functions
01:49:52 i say i i didn't think of it in those terms but i i appreciate it is a health and safety issue which is why both of us were trying to keep it moving forward what terms
01:50:07 keep it moving forward what terms did you think of it in um i was
01:50:14 um i was chasing ryden to try and get the solution agreed so that we could get building it [Music]
01:50:23 [Music] but say i didn't think about it in wider terms i'm afraid did it occur to you that the absence of a fully functioning aov was such a significant
01:50:36 aov was such a significant fire risk to the residents that hoping your luck holds and there are no fires in the meantime was a wholly inappropriate and potentially very dangerous
01:50:47 dangerous strategy to adopt
01:50:51 yes as you say i don't i don't like the idea of luck with something like this but there were other safety measures in the building so um so i i don't know enough about
01:51:04 so um so i i don't know enough about the deficiency notice regime to know if the fire brigade should have followed up with something else i don't know i'm afraid
01:51:12 afraid did this not signal to you whatever janice ray's own attitude was that you couldn't trust to luck
01:51:20 luck and that something had to be done urgently
01:51:23 urgently well that's why i say i read this as a prompt to me to keep onto our um contractor to get it resolved as soon as possible but that's the way i would take this
01:51:35 but that's the way i would take this given the delays that had crept into this this part of the program as we've seen from the emails i've been showing you uh keeping onto the contractor to get it resolved as soon as possible was not a
01:51:47 resolved as soon as possible was not a reliable
01:51:49 reliable and safe way of proceeding was it um i i would have had to take advice on that because i
01:51:58 because i don't know what the um perhaps what measures should be put in place or what the fire brigade would do obviously they were aware that
01:52:10 would do obviously they were aware that our system wasn't working because they told us they would bring fire apparatus breathing apparatus so that they
01:52:18 could manage any fires at this point did either you or janice ray you together actually consider bringing in a fire safety
01:52:29 consider bringing in a fire safety professional whether a fire safety engineer or or or another
01:52:34 another and sitting with the lfb and devising an interim solution which meant that you didn't have to trust to luck um i i didn't consider it
01:52:45 um i i didn't consider it um i suspect that janice may have had other thoughts but i don't know what they would have been
01:52:58 don't know what they would have been can we move on then ryd3087894
01:53:06 this is an email of the 5th of january 2015 from you to simon o'connor and simon lawrence towards the bottom of page one and you say i put out a call simon o'connor and then
01:53:19 simon o'connor and then in the third paragraph down you say the bad news is that we have had inquiries from both mr dufan and the grenfell
01:53:27 grenfell help leaseholders association about item two
01:53:31 two of the smoke vent system peter madison is responding but asked specifically if we could get confirmation from you on your programming for this works i know it's in your revised program but
01:53:42 i know it's in your revised program but i need to be confident before the response goes back to the 20 councillors also who are copied in can you please give me an indication of a likely building control approval date
01:53:52 date b date for getting the new fire dampers on the existing system ignore the new construction unless you have a reliable program c date for new fans d anything else relevant i have simon's update email for janice ray from
01:54:03 simon's update email for janice ray from november street december did you explain to peter madison that the aov was not functioning at that moment and needed to be completely replaced
01:54:17 um peter had been at some of the site meetings
01:54:22 meetings and he would have been at the health and safety committee as well so he was aware through other sources we might have talked about it as well right
01:54:33 well right did you discuss the extent to which the residents would be told that the aov wasn't functioning no i don't remember talking to peter or anyone about that
01:54:44 anyone about that so this is now january 2015
01:54:49 10 months after the notice of deficiency just a little bit under 10 months why was now not the time to come out and tell the residents even in short
01:55:01 and tell the residents even in short terms in a regeneration newsletter that the aov wasn't functioning yeah now as you say we could have done it but it
01:55:10 it but it it wasn't anything that i even put in a newsletter and then thought oh we shouldn't do that i don't even remember putting it in why was it bad news in your words that you had an inquiry
01:55:22 in your words that you had an inquiry from both mr define and the grenfell beast holders association about the smoke vent system
01:55:30 just because i was asking them for information so there was the good news and then there was the bad news it was a presentation style
01:55:38 style well why was it bad news that you had an inquiry from both mr defan and the grenfell leaseholders association about the smoke vent system um just that i was keeping them
01:55:50 um just that i was keeping them in the loop and that i was asking them to give me this information which they knew
01:55:54 knew where it would go back to so they they knew it needed to be accurate why was that bad news um no it's just i did good news and bad news i think that's just a
01:56:08 style i used i think um yeah it's nothing i know [Music]
01:56:16 [Music] perhaps it doesn't read as well but that was the style that i chose to use well let me suggest to you why it might be bad news it was bad news as opposed to good news because it meant that you were going to have to give an accurate
01:56:27 accurate and well-founded and empirically verifiable answer both to mr defan and the gl the gtla in relation to the problems with the smoke vent system and that would have meant you'd have had to explain the history
01:56:39 history yeah that's why it was bad news wasn't it no i i didn't feel like that about it my feeling was you need to give me this information i need it soonest i need to be accurate so it's bad news for you because it's more
01:56:50 it's bad news for you because it's more work
01:56:50 work it was bad news miss williams because they were onto you and you didn't like it um isn't that actually what was happening no that wasn't what was happening if if
01:57:02 no that wasn't what was happening if if you know that that sort of an agenda which wasn't there the idea is to tell people as much as you can to get them on board i've said that i didn't mention this in the newsletter because it didn't cross
01:57:13 the newsletter because it didn't cross my mind and i don't even think i even put any pictures in the newsletters normally you know i would illustrate things i don't think i did anything on this in the newsletter either i think it was something that
01:57:25 something that it wasn't something i was particularly familiar with so it wasn't something perhaps that i concentrated on was one of the reasons why you didn't actually come clean with the residents and tell them about the non-functioning
01:57:36 them about the non-functioning aov in the building that you didn't want to provoke mr dufan into action and have to deal with him on the issue um
01:57:45 um
01:57:45 [Music] i i don't remember that actually being talked about being considered as i say i don't even remember talking to janice ray about
01:57:57 janice ray about what we could do in the meantime which would normally be the sort of conversation you would have but i i don't remember any of those conversations at all i think um so possibly it was a short coming on my
01:58:09 so possibly it was a short coming on my part but i i'm
01:58:12 we dealt with it mr define as you understand on many difficult issues so one more would probably not make much difference but so i was saying it was bad news to
01:58:23 but so i was saying it was bad news to them because they had to provide me with information and i needed to be accurate because it was going to be
01:58:30 reviewed and made sure that people were up to date so i there wasn't any agenda it was more that i was giving them work to do and i needed it to be accurate and i wanted it quickly
01:58:41 wanted it quickly so um can we go to tmo one triple zero eight
01:58:46 eight four two two
01:58:55 this is an email of the fifth of january 2015
01:58:58 2015 from peter madison to councillor blakeman judith blakeman in response to the gtla's complaint about various things and it's copied to
01:59:09 about various things and it's copied to you as you can see
01:59:12 and in it peter madison said a number of things but if we look um below the bullet points it says the scope of work to grenfell
01:59:23 it says the scope of work to grenfell includes the upgrade stroke renewal of smoke and fire safety and ventilation system
01:59:28 system the system is currently beyond economic repair we're working with building control to agree a design for the system that will meet current standards we have been in close contact with the fire brigade to make them aware of the current situation so they can take this into account in
01:59:39 so they can take this into account in their approach to any fire safety issues now it is right isn't it that mr madison didn't tell judith blakeman that the existing system was not functioning at all
01:59:51 functioning at all not working to use the words from the progress meeting in september um i don't know what peter madison told her apart from what is here so it doesn't say there that it's not
02:00:03 so it doesn't say there that it's not working
02:00:04 working no indeed did peter madison make that clear to councillor blakeman at all outside this email um i wouldn't know that
02:00:16 now this update was intended for uh mr awaderu
02:00:20 awaderu that's the gtla did did you consider sending an update to all residents about the aov rather than this specific uh response to a specific request um
02:00:33 uh response to a specific request um i think as i've said i didn't consider with anybody whether we wrote to individual residents or groups of residents about it
02:00:44 residents about it you see it looks from this that you are choosing your audience or mr madison was choosing his audience
02:00:53 audience he was happy to tell ms uh councillor blakeman in response to mr awaderi's complaint that the system is currently beyond economic repair was it not essential that all residents of the building
02:01:05 of the building knew that there was a major gap albeit temporary in the active fire safety measures in place in the tower um i i don't think we were choosing who we
02:01:16 i don't think we were choosing who we told and who we didn't tell
02:01:19 i say i still maintain the fire brigade well they definitely did know it wasn't working
02:01:25 working um
02:01:28 but to say i i i i don't remember talking to anybody about telling residents that it wasn't working it looks from this is that you were forced to give an answer but only to those who'd actually asked the
02:01:39 only to those who'd actually asked the question
02:01:40 question is that fair um if anybody else had asked we would have replied as well it just so happened this was their gtla but if anybody else had asked a specific question they would have had to respond
02:01:51 question they would have had to respond indeed so the tmo on this issue was reactive
02:01:55 reactive and would only actually give information to those who asked for it and not proactive and volunteer health and safety information in respect of the aav system to all those who resided in the building is that is that how it was
02:02:07 that is that how it was this is a reactive response but we didn't tell people or i didn't tell people at least that the system wasn't working
02:02:15 working can we go to tmo1004 2871 please
02:02:23 moving on into january 2015 and this is an email on page two if we go to page two of that please 13th of january you emailed matt smith of max fordham asking him for
02:02:35 matt smith of max fordham asking him for information about the aov to be able to update the lfb and you say uh uh um in the net in the second paragraph is anything being undertaken
02:02:46 paragraph is anything being undertaken in the interim on this i thought we had on board the subcontractor you recommended we have a meeting with the fire brigade next week and i would love to be up to date then i think that's what that
02:02:57 what that yeah mr refers to and he responds to you if we go up to page one
02:03:04 page one in his email of the same day 13th of january
02:03:07 january second paragraph the system is presented in the
02:03:11 in the technical submission is the one discussed with paul hanson from building control on 24th of november 2014. he verbally accepted the scheme at the time so fingers crossed this should be formally approved when submitted
02:03:22 formally approved when submitted the scheme is two-stage in that the current natural ventilation is reinstated as an interim measure before the new pressure differential controls and fans are added at a later date i haven't seen an up-to-date program outlining when these
02:03:33 up-to-date program outlining when these works are to commence speaking of writing be the best bet and then you reply to that at the top of page one if we just look at that the same day david ryden's latest
02:03:44 the same day david ryden's latest program does not give specific info on when works will be undertaken i would say it's all subject to getting approvals anyway so just looking at that ms williams was it right that at that point you didn't actually have a time frame
02:03:56 actually have a time frame either the interim or the final aov works
02:04:01 um we did have a program from ryden that initially
02:04:06 initially showed work starting in june and ending the december for this then that clearly those times passed what they did do they
02:04:18 what they did do they then it was a bar chart or a gap yeah yeah as you said it went all across like that so you could just see the months and you could see the progress
02:04:29 progress um what happened was they started to give us sort of um big still doing the the full bar chart but without actually
02:04:41 the full bar chart but without actually breaking down the work because as as matt has said that it was two stages not i did remember that but there was the natural ventilation stage and then the fan stage
02:04:51 fan stage and so they didn't break it down i think shortly after this we asked them to break down so you could actually see what they're going to do in terms of installation in terms of commissioning for both those
02:05:03 in terms of commissioning for both those two stages so yeah latest the latest program wasn't um right and when was the national ventilation going to be reinstated according to that but gantry um it it
02:05:14 according to that but gantry um it it moved again i think initially it was march and it probably moved to may and i think it was done in may or june
02:05:21 june so months still months oh yeah yeah still months hence and i think that but there were all the time conversations with the building control
02:05:32 conversations with the building control appreciate that under the terms of the contract ryden obtained the building control so i had no involvement with building control i didn't see any paperwork about it but i was aware that
02:05:44 paperwork about it but i was aware that now and again i got copied in the email saying that paul hansen is up to scratch on this and he's asked this that and the other so i knew it was underway tmo double zero
02:05:55 i knew it was underway tmo double zero eight four four zero three seven please this is the the notes of the next bi-monthly meeting with lfb
02:06:02 with lfb which happened a few days later 20th of january 2015 and from the minutes we can see that you gave your apologies uh as did rebecca burton but janice ray
02:06:13 uh as did rebecca burton but janice ray was there with uh sue dada boy and dan hennessey the update on grenfell is on page one second bullet point down grenfell tower work continues on grenfell tower dan agreed to ensure his crews were continuing to attend regularly
02:06:24 continuing to attend regularly janus advised that ryden's the contractors welcome these regular familiarization visits now again looking at that minute there doesn't appear to have been an update on the aov
02:06:34 the aov do you know why that is um
02:06:40 no i'm trying to remember the date of the first email you showed me when i was saying the good news bad news because that information could possibly have fed into this meeting
02:06:52 have fed into this meeting right well that was uh
02:06:56 in uh
02:07:01 earlier in january yeah so again i don't know if just the sequence of the responses meant it didn't
02:07:09 didn't go into the minutes right had you told janice ray that you couldn't attend this meeting
02:07:13 meeting um yes i would always say to her if i wasn't around had you forwarded her the update that you had received from matt smith on the 13th of january we just looked at
02:07:24 13th of january we just looked at um that that's what i'm wondering if there were there was information forwarded but what the date was so perhaps it was done again as you know um post this meeting do you remember
02:07:36 um post this meeting do you remember forwarding the update that you got from matt smith to the lfb directly i wouldn't afford it at the lfb directly
02:07:47 i wouldn't afford it at the lfb directly i would hope i would have forwarded it to janice but i don't remember whether i did i
02:07:51 did i think stuff like that i just wouldn't automatically just move it on can we go to rbk3013999 please
02:08:06 this is further by the monthly meeting on the 23rd of march 2015 it's the next one on page three please item nine
02:08:15 item nine it looks like you provided an update here on the grenfell project and particularly on the aov
02:08:22 aov system and you say firstly with regard to the ventilation and extraction system in the communal areas she advised that's you that we are on track to have the passive system fully operational by late
02:08:34 system fully operational by late may the mechanical system will take longer to complete but we believe that sign off by building control is imminent and then you go on to talk about lifts now there doesn't appear to be any discussion in those minutes there
02:08:45 discussion in those minutes there that meeting about the fact that the existing aov system the existing aav system was still not operational is that right
02:08:53 right um i i
02:08:57 um i i don't know enough about these fire brigade people to know if they understand how the system worked but they're
02:09:03 they're their watches were going to cite regularly and they would have understood the progress of these works
02:09:18 the progress of these works right i mean you're but you don't actually say to the nfb at this meeting there is no fully functioning aov system
02:09:29 there is no fully functioning aov system at all in this building at the moment [Music]
02:09:36 [Music] yeah it does not say that why wasn't that
02:09:39 that simply stated well i don't know if it was verbally that that's what i can't remember but that you know i would have no reason not to say that because that was clearly the setup and their
02:09:50 the setup and their people were on site and would have seen that who took these minutes um janice took them did she write them down as the meeting was happening um generally i think yes right
02:10:02 um generally i think yes right would they in your experience be accurate and full would they just be scrappy and incomplete um no generally they they were full they were good and full but so sometimes
02:10:13 they were good and full but so sometimes they came i think janice actually used to send a draft to the fire brigade first to check that um there was nothing that they'd said that she'd accidentally omitted
02:10:24 said that she'd accidentally omitted so they they would see drafts of these as well
02:10:28 as well before they were actually finally published what about the other way around
02:10:31 around to check that she had she that they recorded accurately what she had or you had actually said or not said um i i suspect she sent me a draft as well i have to say you recall
02:10:43 i have to say you recall correcting the draft on this point at this time
02:10:48 this time i i don't remember ever reading that it didn't say explicitly the aov is not working right so because i i'd read them and thought oh no they know what we're doing but you're right at no point does it say explicitly
02:11:00 at no point does it say explicitly it is not working even though their cruise needs that would suggest strongly at the very least that it wasn't said do you agree um no it doesn't suggest that it suggests that we talked about it in the meeting because they would have
02:11:11 in the meeting because they would have um had sort of a bit of background on the fact that we tried to get it moving and we had these certifications and perhaps there was issues with the certifications they would have heard all that as
02:11:22 they would have heard all that as background this is the second or third bi-monthly meeting minute that you suggested is an inaccurate record because things were said which aren't recorded
02:11:32 recorded was it your experience at the time that these minutes were inaccurate and incomplete in that respect
02:11:39 respect um no generally say i think janice did get them out as drafts if she could fairly quickly um but to say i i
02:11:50 um but to say i i i can see now there is that that one sentence that needs to be there that isn't there it isn't there no and i'm sure sorry are you telling us you can actually recall saying it
02:12:01 recall saying it or are you simply reconstructing by reference to what you think is likely to have been said i am reconstructing by references what is likely
02:12:09 likely to be said because say there is no point right i just wanted to make sure we got the distinction clear yeah no there's no point in saying some of the fire brigade that's clearly not true they would have been on
02:12:20 clearly not true they would have been on site and they they would have heard from ryden as well so why why would we bother to
02:12:24 to so we'd obsess it why would we hide that thank you very much can we go to lfb3032329 please now this takes us far further forward into 2015.
02:12:37 into 2015. uh this is a further bi-monthly meeting with the lfb in that year
02:12:44 held on the 19th of august i'll just wait for the document to come up for you
02:12:50 lfb3032329 and there it is first page of the bi-monthly meeting minutes 19th of august 2015 and you can see that you were present at that meeting
02:13:02 that meeting as was janice ray and the lfb and if you go please to page four you can see that you give her an update on grenfell tower under item 9.1 you say claire advised
02:13:14 under item 9.1 you say claire advised that the ventilation and extraction system was not yet fully up and running this is being treated as a priority by the contractor and parts are now on site but a realistic timescale is now october claire reiterated that all of the
02:13:25 claire reiterated that all of the measures that have been put in place to mitigate fire risk whilst this system is not operational remain in force increased inspections in h s visits regular familiarization visits by local lfb crews
02:13:36 visits by local lfb crews no hot work by contractor etc do you recall any feedback from the lfb about the aov not being operational until october
02:13:47 until october as projected here in this august minute any feedback from the lfb yeah did they react
02:13:54 react um no i don't think so i think they just treated it as information and didn't say you know it's taken you a long time or what were the problems
02:14:07 long time or what were the problems um having said that they would probably be part of the building regulations approval so they would probably be aware of what the problems were would have inputted into the approval system was there any discussion at this meeting
02:14:19 was there any discussion at this meeting about the fact that the aov system had not been operational since or fully operational since the march of the previous year so for at least or about 18 months
02:14:30 year so for at least or about 18 months um i i don't remember i'm sorry tmo double zero eight five nine one six nine please
02:14:39 eight five nine one six nine
02:14:45 this is a paper authored by janice ray dated the 29th of september 2015. called the health and safety high level exception report
02:14:57 do you think that you you'd have seen this document at the time no it appears to be a paper paper three provided
02:15:05 provided for the health and safety committee and if we go to page one paragraph four you'll see just scrolling down the page item four grenfell tower
02:15:16 grenfell tower fire safety ongoing refurbishment of smoke ventilation system in hand but elevated level of risk until this work is completed however actions to mitigate risk in place regular familiarization by local lfb
02:15:27 regular familiarization by local lfb crews regular inspection by far risk assessor
02:15:30 assessor no hot works by contractors increased enhanced inspection by state staff etc project manager has confirmed that passive ventilation system has yet to be completed
02:15:38 completed and target for completion now for december 2015. is it right that you as the project manager have provided her with that information um that's not quite right because the
02:15:49 um that's not quite right because the passive ventilation system was in place i would say may june um but the mechanical part which was these two pairs of fans because there was issues over the
02:16:00 because there was issues over the airflows and the size of fans therefore i think
02:16:04 i think that completion was the 4th of december 15
02:16:07 15 which would have been on a ryden program that would have been where i'd got the
02:16:16 date well i'm just a bit puzzled by that where else would she have got the information from other than you that the passive ventilation system has yet
02:16:28 the passive ventilation system has yet to be completed um i i think it's just uh um a misunderstanding but the passive ventilation system was definitely done by may or june so i
02:16:41 was definitely done by may or june so i i
02:16:41 i don't know where that came from i think i've said to her that the passive system's in place but the target completion for the overall system is the fourth of december which was say taken from a
02:16:52 december which was say taken from a ryden program i see i was going to ask you the
02:16:54 you the that date of the fourth of december what was that in fact a target completion date for
02:16:59 date for that that was for um getting in place the mechanical bit because the um the ducks were there they were clear there was a route through but the fans
02:17:11 there was a route through but the fans which
02:17:12 which supplied and drew the air out the size of those fans was agreed during the building control process and they weren't put in in place and
02:17:25 and they weren't put in in place and they weren't up and running until december i suspect from
02:17:29 from this i don't know if that date changed but it would have been 4th of december at the time of this report coming back to a question i've asked now quite a few times today why were the residents not informed that there was an elevated level of risk
02:17:40 elevated level of risk while the work was being carried out on the smoke ventilation system i've i've said that i don't remember i don't remember ever discussing it with anybody
02:17:50 anybody in terms of why we didn't say to residents i don't remember anybody ever saying
02:17:54 saying let's put it in the newsletter it it wasn't discussed and i don't remember raising it as an issue tmode 100-33146 please
02:18:05 tmode 100-33146 please this is the next bi-monthly meeting with the lfb 20th of october 2015. and if we go to page three you are present sorry you are present with janice ray there if we go to page three
02:18:16 janice ray there if we go to page three item number eight about floor numbering you can see that's the only item raised there right on grenfell tower it's about floor numbering there's nothing mentioned in these minutes about the aov system
02:18:28 these minutes about the aov system did you tell the lfb at this point that the aav
02:18:32 the aav system was still not operational and wouldn't be until early december sorry i missed the front page which gives us the date and whether i was attending yes let's go back to that i took it a bit quickly
02:18:43 back to that i took it a bit quickly 20th of october okay and you are there right okay thank you again back to page three item eight you can see that what was discussed was the floor numbering there's nothing in these minutes about the aov system
02:18:55 the aov system and did you tell the lfb that the aov system was not operating and wouldn't be operating until fourth of december or thereabout um it's not minuted but we
02:19:06 or thereabout um it's not minuted but we clearly had that information you clearly had the information because we've seen it reflected in janice ray's paper three yeah as we've seen but but it's not minuted here the question is why not i i don't know
02:19:20 the question is why not i i don't know it say we had the information there's no reason why we shouldn't publish it now i want to turn next then to fire risk assessments and and mr uh stokes's fire risk
02:19:31 and and mr uh stokes's fire risk assessment dated the 17th of october 2014
02:19:34 2014 that is dealt with in your statement your first statement of paragraphs 98 to 104
02:19:42 104 we can just have those up that's tmo 00840364 pages 19 and 20. can have those both on the screen at the same time
02:19:52 same time i just want to show you paragraph 98
02:19:58 uh i think you probably want the previous page please first to see the beginning of paragraph 98 you say i believe i would have seen a copy of the fire risk assessment at the
02:20:10 copy of the fire risk assessment at the time
02:20:11 time that 17th of october 2014. it recorded amongst other things that the fire strategy for residential areas was a stay put strategy and then it goes on
02:20:22 stay put strategy and then it goes on over the page page 19 which he confirmed meant that residents remain within their own dwelling during a fire incident unless the fire is in that dwelling or it is otherwise affected in which case they should immediately evacuate the dwelling and call the fire and rescue service and
02:20:35 and call the fire and rescue service and i've showed you the rest of this paragraph a little earlier on today now you say that you recall reading that fire risk assessment at the time is that right yes and that would have been in
02:20:47 yes and that would have been in approximately october 2014 yes yes what was the purpose of your reading the fire risk assessment
02:20:57 um i don't know if there are items that were attributed to the refurbishment at that point because we would have been on site so i would possibly have had items and action items
02:21:09 action items assigned to me do you recall reading any of mr stakes's earlier fire risk assessments for grenfell tower namely the one in september 2009 the one from
02:21:20 the one in september 2009 the one from december 2010 and the one from november 2012. i um i don't know that i did that they i don't they weren't in paul duncan's
02:21:31 i don't they weren't in paul duncan's file
02:21:33 file so unless they were provided by janice as part of the information the health and safety for ryden i but i don't think i saw them
02:21:44 for ryden i but i don't think i saw them i
02:21:45 i think the first one i saw was one in september i suspect i see did you also read the significant findings and action plan for this 2014 fire risk assessment i think i would have looked to items
02:21:57 i think i would have looked to items with my names against it yes i see so you would have looked at those parts assigned to you specifically what about the rest of it um
02:22:08 what about the rest of it um i i probably would have cast my eye over it whether i paid more or less attention to it i don't know but i would have i would have probably
02:22:16 probably you know just had a brief look then oh yeah if that's not mine that's not mine in case the items have been attributed wrongly can we go to page 45 please paragraph 249
02:22:32 [Music] you say there i took from this report that there had been a complete and successful fire risk assessment
02:22:42 was that a matter of importance to you
02:22:46 um it was important to me that there was a fire risk assessment which i was the starting point um
02:22:59 for what purpose were you using the fire risk assessment um
02:23:06 i i was using it to action the points that had my name against it can we look at the fire risk assessment it's tmo100
02:23:20 that that's certainly one of the many references we have for this and this is this is the version that you exhibit as cw5 which is why i'm taking you to that particular disclosure number and if you
02:23:32 particular disclosure number and if you look at page three uh page one you can see it's dated the 17th of october 2014. the foot of the page in bold it says the significant findings and action plan of this fire risk assessment is inserted
02:23:44 this fire risk assessment is inserted next with this document continuing on page two
02:23:47 page two and then if you go to page three you can see the assessment is completed by mr c
02:23:55 by mr c stokes and then you can see a number of qualifications after mr stakes's name which was set out in the first sentence there aci arb fpa dip fp europe etc etc
02:24:09 fpa dip fp europe etc etc do you remember looking at the qualifications after carl stokes his name no they wouldn't mean anything to me so no so you didn't have any understanding of
02:24:21 so you didn't have any understanding of what those qualifications were no you don't unders you didn't have an understanding about whether any of them actually equipped coal stokes to be a fire
02:24:27 fire risk assessor no did what assumptions did you make about that um that he was employed by the organization that he was uh he'd been employed for a couple of years and i
02:24:39 and i i assumed he would be a competent contractor a consultant who was able to do the work did you set any store by any of the qualifications listed here when coming
02:24:50 qualifications listed here when coming to the to the conclusion that this was a complete and successful fire risk assessment as you call it um i didn't set any store by it no
02:25:01 um i didn't set any store by it no but i again i you know there were lots of
02:25:04 of lots of letters there so he's obviously done quite a lot of training right did you did that lead you to think that mr stokes was a competent and qualified fire risk assessor yes if i told you that none of those
02:25:19 yes if i told you that none of those post nominals indicate that mr stokes or his company were registered or certificated by any professional or certification body as competent to deliver fire risk assessments would that change your opinion about the reliability of
02:25:31 opinion about the reliability of his fire risk assessment um
02:25:35 no because i think he's a chat with a lot of experience as well from my meeting him and i think he um sort of did look into some of the
02:25:46 um sort of did look into some of the detail things that perhaps other people wouldn't have paragraph 237 of your first statement if we can get back to that please page 43
02:25:55 in the last sentence there you say
02:26:00 uh he noted
02:26:04 i'm so sorry it's four lines down uh you say he went on to say that the fire service or tmo employees would arrange for a general evacuation of the building at any time if this were appropriate or the residents could leave at any time
02:26:15 or the residents could leave at any time if they so wished he noted that information had been provided to all residents in the form of tenant handbooks
02:26:21 handbooks letters and briefing sheets etc and articles on fire safety advice and emergency procedures included in the residence magazine called link now was that something you were personally aware of
02:26:33 were personally aware of um i knew it was in the tenant handbooks briefing sheets i don't know if that was my newsletters
02:26:44 my newsletters i knew it was in link and i had seen some fire safety posters but at different times and not particularly in this employment so i knew it would be a
02:26:56 this employment so i knew it would be a standard thing right and we discussed earlier on the fact that you told us you didn't actually
02:27:05 actually explore either with him or anybody else at the tma what arrangements were for a general evacuation if it were appropriate notwithstanding that carl stakes identified that in his
02:27:16 identified that in his fire risk assessment that's right isn't it yes
02:27:19 it yes uh now as i've shown you you said that this in paragraph 238 this appeared to be a comprehensive assessment of all fire safety issues and he further reported on the provisions for means
02:27:31 reported on the provisions for means of escape i just want to explore with you the statement that it appeared to be a comprehensive fire risk assessment of all fire safety issues
02:27:40 issues uh can you please go back to the fire risk assessment please at page 18 tma10042446 page 18.
02:27:53 um on that page you can see that there's a section called pest control you see that yes is there any suitable control of any pest infestations tick
02:28:06 control of any pest infestations tick comments or observations and if you um pick it up halfway down the box underneath it it says this where pigeon netting has been erected to cover the flat balconies
02:28:19 cover the flat balconies from a visual inspection from the ground there appeared to be no areas where this pigeon netting was damaged and it appeared to be well fitted at the time of this assessment
02:28:33 there was no access to each flat balcony as these are private areas for the pigeon netting excuse me pigeon netting was wear fitted is only covering the balcony opening and is therefore not obstructing
02:28:44 opening and is therefore not obstructing any doors from the flat onto the external balcony area now do you recall reading that section at the time no i don't why didn't you read that did you did you
02:28:55 why didn't you read that did you did you not read the whole report um so i i would have cast my eye over it but i would have looked more at the areas with my name against but i can see this is a cut and paste report from that comment
02:29:09 report from that comment just to be clear grenfell tower had no flat balconies and no pigeon netting well fitted or otherwise did it no it had no balconies were you i mean did you pick up the fact that mr stokes
02:29:20 did you pick up the fact that mr stokes had included a passage in his report that had nothing whatever to do with grenfell tower no i didn't
02:29:26 didn't it how could you have thought that it was a comprehensive assessment of all fire safety issues if it included material that was irrelevant to the building um i would have looked at the headings
02:29:38 um i would have looked at the headings i thought that's interesting i didn't know what they covered so it was quite interesting to see all of that did you notice at the time at the time that mr stakes had clearly cut and
02:29:49 that mr stakes had clearly cut and pasted this from somewhere else um no now you've that paragraph is the first
02:29:55 first time i've seen right to your knowledge i i
02:29:59 i take it the answer to this must be yes and nobody else at the time no noticed either
02:30:03 either um i can't speak for other people i'm afraid
02:30:05 afraid [Music]
02:30:09 uh mr chairman it's now 4 30. i'm about to come on to a different topic i think that would be a very good note on which to close for the day wouldn't it it would thank you yes
02:30:20 it would thank you yes i think this is the time which we ought to close the proceedings for today um i think you've been warned that we i'll have to ask you to come back tomorrow for some more questions so that doesn't come as any surprise um i'm
02:30:32 that doesn't come as any surprise um i'm going to reiterate what i said earlier please don't talk to anyone about your evidence
02:30:36 evidence because there obviously will be an opportunity now over the break so please resist that and we'll see you again at 10 o'clock tomorrow please okay all right thank thank you very much indeed
02:30:58 thank you 10 o'clock tomorrow then please