Kensington & Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Evidence - Wednesday 28th April 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:14 so

00:00:18 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing

00:00:21 hearing today we're going to continue hearing evidence from miss claire williams uh formerly of the tmo so would you ask ms williams to come back in

00:00:42 [Applause] [Music]

00:00:48 all right good morning ms williams just take a moment to get organized that's all right

00:01:00 all right ready to carry on yes yes mr villain when you're ready mr chairman thank you good morning and good morning to members of the panel good morning ms williams yesterday we were looking at the october 2014 fra

00:01:13 at the october 2014 fra i'd like to get back to that please in the context of the aov system tmo100-42446 and i'd like to go in that document

00:01:24 and i'd like to go in that document please to page 25

00:01:31 and on that page you'll see a heading towards the bottom of the screen 19 fixed

00:01:39 fixed fire systems and equipment and if you turn please to page 26 you can see two thirds of the way down this large block of text it says there is an automatic opening

00:01:52 it says there is an automatic opening smoke ventilation system located on each flat straight lift lobby area there are two sets of vents each of two vents on opposite walls on the flat lift lobby areas there is a smoke detector located on

00:02:03 there is a smoke detector located on each flat stroke lift lobby area which upon activation opens the vents on that floor level two vents are for inflow air the other two for extraction the mechanical extraction units and the

00:02:14 the mechanical extraction units and the control panels for these vents are located

00:02:16 located in the roof level plant room on the wall there is a manual override facility located in the ground floor lift lobby area for use by the fire service please see section 17 above means of giving a warning in case of

00:02:27 means of giving a warning in case of fire for more information of the flat lift lobby area detectors as part of the building's refurbishment this smoke extraction system is being upgraded this currently installed system was

00:02:39 this currently installed system was serviced by rge services on the 11th october

00:02:42 october 2013 this exists smoke extraction system incorporates dampers within the dutch work and then if we go having shown you that paragraph 249 of

00:02:53 having shown you that paragraph 249 of your first witness statement your first witness statement page 45 paragraph 249

00:03:02 you say there i took from this report that there had been a complete and successful fire risk assessment which in the event of fire required residents to remain in their homes unless the fire was in their flat in which case they should evacuate and

00:03:15 in which case they should evacuate and that anyone wishing to it to or requiring to evacuate was safe to do so via the protected staircase in which an automatic ventilation system operated following fire detection and with complete 30-minute self-closing

00:03:26 and with complete 30-minute self-closing fire safety doors and shoots etc all of which were compliant with building regulations standards as reported

00:03:34 reported now this statement doesn't specifically appear

00:03:38 appear in the fire risk assessment does it what you said at that paragraph um no this is my um comment on the report yes it's your summary or analysis of

00:03:49 yes it's your summary or analysis of what the fire risk assessment of october 2014 said about what would happen in the event of a fire is that right it's my comment yes your comment

00:03:59 comment would you agree that your comment suggests that an automatic ventilation system would be operated in the event of a fire um i think that's what i'd taken from

00:04:10 um i think that's what i'd taken from that report yes but in fact but in fact it's right isn't it that in respect of the automatic ventilation system as we've already examined in some detail yesterday you were aware

00:04:21 yesterday you were aware that as at october 2014 the aov was not working

00:04:27 working um

00:04:30 um i think you're right i think the synchronicity of this is so how could your comment be accurate um

00:04:41 so how could your comment be accurate um was there a previous fra or was this the only one

00:04:45 only one well there was a previous fra from november 2012 yeah no i don't know i would have seen that in which case my comment i'm afraid is inaccurate and i would have to rescind it withdraw

00:04:56 i would have to rescind it withdraw whatever you say

00:05:00 so when you read the fire risk assessment of october 2014 that i've just shown you and summarized the strategy in the event of a fire that it was premised on an automatic ventilation

00:05:12 premised on an automatic ventilation system working did you have any cause for concern at that time

00:05:18 that time based on what you actually knew about the operative state of the aov system um

00:05:28 i think so i'm going back to yesterday's evidence

00:05:31 evidence that um we had the deficiency notice didn't we in the march and there was talk about our contractor coming back to service it

00:05:42 contractor coming back to service it but i think if i remember so i'm remembering from yesterday this is not i'm saying my memory at the time i'm afraid but from yesterday we saw in september that chubb were going to go and service it in

00:05:53 were going to go and service it in september

00:05:55 september so i'm not quite sure of how this all fits together but it seems to me about this time we were still waiting to hear from the service contractor and from ryden's

00:06:09 contractor or from there from our consultant whether or not the system was able to be worked on to provide some

00:06:20 able to be worked on to provide some effective smoke detection systems i think

00:06:24 think at the time of october so the service contractors report suspect wasn't received and i don't think our consultant's report had been finalized either so i think this is a bit of a time in limbo

00:06:36 think this is a bit of a time in limbo well it may have been a time in limbo but when you read the fra and particularly the passage i've read to you

00:06:42 you about the aov system did it not strike you at the time you read that that it was

00:06:47 was incomplete and therefore inaccurate um i

00:06:54 um i suspect not because um so one obviously you're looking at the paragraph i'm looking at um but also so you know i wasn't so familiar with fras and i think

00:07:06 familiar with fras and i think um that it was a period as i say when it was in limbo as to whether the system that was installed was able to be

00:07:18 sort of say patched up which is probably not the right expression but whether the system that was there we still hadn't had a final outcome as to whether it was salvageable in any shape or form

00:07:31 in any shape or form you recall i think from yesterday that the lfb had specifically uh asked that the non-operation of the aov be addressed in the fire risk

00:07:43 of the aov be addressed in the fire risk assessment we looked at that yesterday we can go back to simon lawrence's email or your email to simon lawrence if you liked of the 18th of september you remember that from yesterday i'm afraid i don't know

00:07:55 afraid i don't know sorry let's look at it again we looked at it yesterday it's tmo double zero eight five one eight two four

00:08:08 and it's point two a do you remember we looked at this yesterday yes now it's ringing bells yes we are working on the smoke vents and the system will not be fully operational

00:08:19 the system will not be fully operational until

00:08:20 until after christmas they asked that this was covered in your risk assessments as well as

00:08:24 as as well as in our building fra so it's clear to you at that date 18th of september 2014 uh that you had been asked by the

00:08:35 2014 uh that you had been asked by the lfb

00:08:36 lfb to cover the non-operational non fully operational nature of the aov in your building fra now if we go back please just to pin this down to the fra where we were

00:08:47 this down to the fra where we were before

00:08:47 before page 26 that's tmo one double zero four two four four six page twenty six where in the passage i've read out to you does it say that the aov system

00:08:59 does it say that the aov system is either not working at all or not working fully yes it doesn't say that you're did you notice that it didn't say that

00:09:11 did you notice that it didn't say that at the time no i didn't notice can you explain why you didn't notice that given that only one month beforehand in the middle of september 2014 you were alive to the fact that the lfb had asked that it be covered

00:09:22 that it be covered um

00:09:26 in any role you ask people to do things and you expect them to do it i think it's how much i can monitor what other people are doing and obviously i was um

00:09:38 and obviously i was um perhaps trying to manage quite a lot of issues at this time and so i didn't notice it so it's a oversight on my part but i say you know it is also a reality of work

00:09:49 you know it is also a reality of work that you can't always monitor your colleagues and work but this isn't really you monitoring your colleagues work you were you were charged with the responsibility for making sure that so far as the refurbishment was

00:10:01 so far as the refurbishment was concerned at the least the fra was accurate and up-to-date um i'd ask that it be included in the fra it clearly isn't included in the fra did you say presumably you didn't raise

00:10:12 you say presumably you didn't raise the omission by mr stokes uh about those matters with anybody um no i don't believe that i picked it up if i had i would have right now let's uh

00:10:27 look please at ryd303554

00:10:33 this is february 2015

00:10:38 and it's an email of the 20th of february

00:10:42 february 2015. uh from simon o'connor to you

00:10:52 and if you look uh a little bit lower down the page you can see um

00:11:11 um it's three i'm so sorry i've given you the wrong reference i apologize it's ryd

00:11:16 ryd three zeros three five five five at page three

00:11:36 sorry three five five let me try again ryd

00:11:39 ryd three zeros three five five five three is what we're after

00:11:49 thank you now this is a project fire risk assessment if you look at the very top it's dated february 2015

00:12:02 and it's sent to you on the 20th of february

00:12:05 february 2015 and

00:12:09 2015 and you can see that simon o'connor and simon camps had carried out a project uh fire risk assessment uh full grenfell tower in the february of that year

00:12:20 of that year do you remember looking at this um if it was sent to me i would have um looked at it yes and if we go to page eight please

00:12:32 and if we go to page eight please item 7.2 you can see that it says persons located on upper floors and it notes under in the middle column the fire brigade and client have a staple policy for residents

00:12:44 staple policy for residents however there is no system in place for the building client and fiber fire brigade have been informed you see that yes

00:12:51 that yes and that risk in this respect is marked as high

00:12:54 as high did you consider that information um i would have seen it and i would have thought

00:13:01 thought that was probably appropriate but i i can't think of anything else right did it give you any cause for concern about the reliance on the stapled strategy as set out in carl stokes's fra at least

00:13:14 as set out in carl stokes's fra at least while the aov system wasn't working

00:13:18 um no i thought that was appropriate and we did ask that the contractor be mindful so this reflects that

00:13:29 be mindful so this reflects that right did you raise the comment that you see there

00:13:34 see there with anybody within the tma um i don't know who else percent this within the tmo or within the the project team um

00:13:46 the project team um did you realize that this concern or comment was not a point picked up by mr stokes in his fra

00:13:55 um i i don't know whether carl stokes would have a copy of this i don't know no that's not my question my question is when you look at the comment

00:14:06 when you look at the comment yeah the fire brigade and client have a stay put policy for residents however there is no system in place for the building client and fire brigade have been informed it's the middle sentence there no system in place for the building did

00:14:18 no system in place for the building did it strike you that carl stokes had not covered that question in his fire risk assessment um now i i think he didn't include it whereas

00:14:28 whereas he should have included yes he didn't but my question is did you spot it at the time

00:14:32 the time i didn't spot that he had not commented on the aov system not functioning right so you didn't spot that either um okay and then if we look on the page 10 please

00:14:43 please item 15.1

00:14:47 you can see this is under the more general heading existing firefighting facilities occupied buildings and then 15.1 says client

00:14:55 client fra insufficient not provided not reliable

00:15:00 reliable uh that's the hazard and then existing control measures in place column the middle of the um in the middle of the page the detection and alarm systems and the aov do not

00:15:11 and alarm systems and the aov do not work

00:15:12 work fire brigade and client aware and then 15.2

00:15:17 15.2 client fire plan insufficient not provided not reliable and then again the detection and alarm systems

00:15:25 systems and the aov do not work fire brigade and client

00:15:28 client aware

00:15:31 did you notice those um so obviously this document is a long time ago it would be unrealistic so i remember everything i saw in the period

00:15:42 saw in the period but um i think that this fra is or project fire risk assessment on behalf of ryden is realistic and so as you've pointed out it wasn't

00:15:53 and so as you've pointed out it wasn't reflected in carl's um fro which perhaps it should have been yes and you'll see on the right hand side that the in the boxes risk category that both of those are again marked high risk yes

00:16:06 again marked high risk yes did this not jump out at you at the time um

00:16:09 um this is what we discussed with ryden this was making sure that they were reflecting in their own health and safety plan the situation in the building this demonstrates to me that they were doing

00:16:20 demonstrates to me that they were doing that yes but did it not also demonstrate to you that there was something missing from carl stokes his own fra that you had seen in the previous october as i've said i hadn't appreciated

00:16:33 as i've said i hadn't appreciated that carl hadn't included that information in his report right when it says client fra insufficient didn't you appreciate that the client's fra was insufficient um i think as it says

00:16:46 insufficient um i think as it says there's lots of options there but that so that

00:16:49 so that but i've said to you that i i did not realize

00:16:52 realize that carl stokes had not incorporated the contractor's information i mean i'm really seeking to understand why not

00:16:59 why not when you read this and i've just read 15 1 and 15

00:17:02 1 and 15 2 to you why did the criticism of your own fra not jump out at you

00:17:10 um so i think we all get long documents we all get many documents i had looked at it and i'd thought this was realistic that's that's my only comment if you

00:17:21 that's that's my only comment if you thought it was realistic at the time why didn't you go to janice ray and say uh

00:17:27 uh ryden have done a project fire risk assessment for our building they have spotted that the client fra is insufficient in the in respect of

00:17:39 in the in respect of the aov system we need to do something about it

00:17:45 about it yes i wish i had picked up the discrepancy in the reports i did not do that

00:17:49 that right if we go to page uh uh if we um go over the page from page 10 to page 11 actions required

00:18:00 from page 10 to page 11 actions required to reduce risk

00:18:04 one of the things that's recommended is in the second entry existing systems to be repaired and the system checked and implemented ongoing liaison with the fire brigade request updated fra and fire plan from

00:18:16 request updated fra and fire plan from client taking into consideration current circumstances did you take any steps to action that recommendation i would have there was

00:18:27 i would have there was continuous discussion about this between ryden

00:18:30 ryden and um janice who gave us access to a fire risk assessor and so we would always give them our up-to-date fras

00:18:42 up-to-date fras did you take any steps to action this recommendation by way of let me be clear getting or asking for an updated fra and a fire plan taking into account

00:18:55 and a fire plan taking into account the absence of an operating aov um i would have yes so you would have did you

00:19:02 you um i i think if we've looked at all our progress site meetings i i'm minuted there very regularly as being asked to provide information and

00:19:13 being asked to provide information and i did and i say it might not have been this that triggered me doing it it could have been our monthly site progress meetings but there was continuous discussion about this it was um something i have to say in

00:19:26 it was um something i have to say in that i did introduce janice to the ryden team because it was quite important that they

00:19:31 they knew who the personalities were they were dealing with did you go to carl stokes

00:19:35 stokes and ask him for an updated fra to take into account the inoperable aov system i did not why is that because i one i didn't manage car stokes

00:19:48 i one i didn't manage car stokes janice was asking him to do more regular visits um and so i i don't know how often he was

00:19:59 and so i i don't know how often he was going but

00:20:00 going but he was going there very regularly and he would have been there shortly after with a with a new updated fra i did not as i reiterate i did not pick up the discrepancy between the two

00:20:11 pick up the discrepancy between the two reports

00:20:12 reports did you ask janice ray to instruct mr stokes to produce an updated fra taking into account the inoperable arv system

00:20:24 system i did not but janice was asking him to go there on a regular basis anyway so say i did not pick up the discrepancy in the report did you show this document to janice ray i don't remember can we then go to a

00:20:36 i don't remember can we then go to a different topic which is personal evacuation plans um can i get back please to the fire risk assessment for 2014 tm0100-42446 please

00:20:51 for 2014 tm0100-42446 please page 21.

00:20:59 now this under section 13 is about disabled people and it says in the paragraph underneath that it is considered that the building is provided

00:21:10 considered that the building is provided with reasonable arrangements for means of escape for disabled people tick yes and uh first question miss williams do you remember

00:21:21 remember reading this section when you got this fra

00:21:24 fra i do not do not did you expect it even if you didn't read it

00:21:33 read it or don't remember reading it did you expect it to cover the arrangements in place for means of

00:21:42 escape i would expect it to cover means of escape yes did you expect it to cover means of escape for disabled people

00:21:54 escape for disabled people as set out in guidance public guidance for example pas79 um no i'm not familiar enough with the um subject to understand what the the

00:22:07 um subject to understand what the the whole

00:22:08 whole gamma of the report should cover were you aware of what arrangements were in place

00:22:13 place by way of means of escape for all forms of disability such as mobility impairment deafness blindness learning difficulties and mental health issues

00:22:25 mental health issues no i wouldn't know that that's not something that would be within my area of the business i think i said yesterday that my um my role meant that we ran contracts of different types in different

00:22:37 of different types in different properties we weren't attached to any um particular patch so no this is it's an area i'm not familiar with at all so is this a part of the fra that you

00:22:49 so is this a part of the fra that you regarded as outside your remit um yes it would be something i would expect there'd be a comment on the means of escape whether it was lit whether it had you know fire resisting doors but i wouldn't know

00:23:00 fire resisting doors but i wouldn't know anything about the evacuation um procedure

00:23:06 right let's see how we go then can we go on to look at see what's in the box under comments or observations it says in the first paragraph at the time of the risk assessment there was no evidence of any resident within the

00:23:17 evidence of any resident within the premises

00:23:18 premises who suffers from sensory impairment to such a level that would prevent them from hearing a shouted warning of fire or a loud knocking on their entrance door to warm them do you remember reading that uh no i

00:23:30 do you remember reading that uh no i don't remember reading right well scan your eyes down the rest of the box please you'll see that it doesn't refer to specific residents with other disabilities who might find it difficult to escape

00:23:41 who might find it difficult to escape the building without assistance in the event of a fire you can see that that's not there can't you um now by october 2014 you've been in your role for over a year haven't you

00:23:52 your role for over a year haven't you yes

00:23:52 yes yes um did you know at that point 11 months in

00:23:57 months in 13 months into your your job that there were a number of residents in grenfell tower who did have disabilities

00:24:06 um i'd met many residents and as you appreciate disability covers a whole

00:24:14 whole range of items but i wasn't looking at them in terms of whether they could escape the building in case of fire i was looking at them in terms of

00:24:22 of getting across the information about the scheme

00:24:26 scheme but the scheme would have included fire safety in ensuring that whatever scheme there was

00:24:30 there was the means of escape were properly maintained um it would ensure making sure the the contract that i was involved with

00:24:41 with didn't impact on the means of escape you were familiar as you've just told us with many of the residents in the building and you were familiar i think

00:24:52 building and you were familiar i think is this right with the fact that some of them had

00:24:56 them had disabilities and i used the word in a very broad sense yes there was a couple of people i would say had mobility issues yes did you notice when you received this report that

00:25:10 when you received this report that this part of the report did not specifically make any mention of those residents

00:25:15 residents um no i didn't notice that did you ever have a discussion with janice ray about this part of this report no i didn't

00:25:30 can we look please at ryd30 is 24466

00:25:40 this is a ryden grenfell tower resident survey

00:25:44 survey uh and it's dated november 2014 as you can see on that page uh if you um well we'll look on a minute at it

00:25:53 at it first question were you aware in november 2014 that ryden was carrying out

00:25:58 out uh a survey of the residents of grenfell tower i was yes did you receive a copy of this document do you think i did in early stages i don't think i saw the final

00:26:10 stages i don't think i saw the final version

00:26:11 version right did you not ask to see the final version

00:26:14 version um probably not because at that stage i i'd met a lot of the residents and if i'd needed it i knew how to find it i see did you make janice ray or carl

00:26:26 see did you make janice ray or carl stokes aware of ryden's schedule of residents of grenfell tower and their and their difficulties um the information on the resident's survey was

00:26:37 was primarily for ryden's rlos to understand people's situation in terms of accessing the flat

00:26:44 the flat so it did include issues that wouldn't affect the work so it was looking at people and night workers if people had mobility issues generally finding out say any

00:26:55 generally finding out say any arrangements that might impact on the works

00:26:57 works what we did do we discussed this with the housing management team because the housing management team would be using this information perhaps updating their systems with it right that's helpful

00:27:08 right that's helpful when did you discuss this document with the housing management team um we heard in the start of the scheme we had very regular

00:27:19 start of the scheme we had very regular meetings it was i'm sure you appreciate that ryden initially had an enabling contract mrs williams i'm really sorry to interrupt you do you remember when uh in or after november 2014 you

00:27:31 uh in or after november 2014 you discussed

00:27:32 discussed this document with the housing and we had regular media housing management i think they started doing the survey probably

00:27:38 probably july 14 and then that information was conveyed in the tmo housing management liaison meetings and i i believe that the housing

00:27:51 and i i believe that the housing management team used this information to input into their systems and who was it in the housing management team that you believe

00:27:59 believe used this information to input into their system probably it would have been janice jones who was the housing officer

00:28:11 did you see yourself the results of that input exercise um i did not can we look on in the document

00:28:22 document page 21 please we can see an entry for flat 132

00:28:29 uh and the date 23rd of november 2014 that's the date of the survey for for the occupant resident uh and it's identified as ms sheila sheila

00:28:43 identified as ms sheila sheila and in the second last column it says in red

00:28:47 red forgetful memory and slight deafness tenant is over 80 years old so here is one resident at the very least with a sensory impairment which might prevent them

00:28:58 might prevent them hearing a shouted warning of fire or loud knocking did you yourself consider drawing this resident

00:29:06 resident at the very least to the attention of janice ray or carl stokes

00:29:16 i did not but please bear in mind that the information on residents was largely held by housing management i would not be the person to update it

00:29:28 i would not be the person to update it because my role would be tran transitory so it was more important that housing management had that information which would then

00:29:39 be put onto their databases for collection by others did you pass this document to janice ray um i did not why is that um

00:29:52 why is that um as i say housing management would use their

00:29:56 their systems to update information and that would be what would feed into other data that the tmo held right just to be clear so that we have your evidence on this

00:30:07 so that we have your evidence on this did you pass this document to janice jones

00:30:11 jones i believe that ryden did because it was updated and i as i say i got early versions but i didn't get the final one

00:30:22 didn't get the final one did you not think it was important even though you had the early versions to make sure that all the dots were joined up within the tmo so that there weren't any gaps through which this information could fall

00:30:35 um my role as you appreciate is resident liaison is managing the budget and program this was something to keep the program moving this was in the hands of

00:30:47 moving this was in the hands of the housing management team to put onto their database i knew they they were having regular discussion it was minuted that they had access to this that was the um the way that i knew it

00:31:01 that was the um the way that i knew it that i'd put something in place yes i i i understand that i'm really just seeking to explore to what extent you appreciated that this document was of critical importance both to health

00:31:13 of critical importance both to health and safety and the housing management team so that even if it wasn't your role necessarily to act on this information you knew that it was in the right hands

00:31:24 you knew that it was in the right hands i knew it was in the right hands because housing management had it

00:31:30 right

00:31:37 can i then move to another question on the aov briefly

00:31:47 can i ask you please to go to your first witness statement paragraph 109 page 21 please

00:31:59 i just want to pick up one thing in your witness statement on this um you say there an fb had attended regularly during the refurbishment and i'm aware that all the kensington and chelsea watchers had

00:32:10 the kensington and chelsea watchers had attended site with ryden to gain an understanding on the internal features in the tower and the operation of equipment as part of this exercise i was advised by ryden and lfb that ryden had provided plans of the building to

00:32:21 had provided plans of the building to lfb together with instructions on how to use the automatic opening ventilation aav system i had provided plans to lfb too and it's that last sentence i just want

00:32:32 and it's that last sentence i just want to ask you about and the reason i'm coming back to aov here is because it links to the wider question of plans now you say you provided plans to the lfb was that plans of the aov system or plans of the

00:32:45 plans of the aov system or plans of the building

00:32:46 building um planted the building right i see do you recall how you provided plans of the building to the lfb i

00:32:54 lfb i believe that i sent them to somebody who attended the bi-monthly meetings i i would have thought it would be daniel halessy right but it could have been sahel i see

00:33:06 right but it could have been sahel i see so either sahel dada boy or daniel halesi yes at any rate one of those who attended the bi-monthly yes i see do you remember when you provided those plans to either of those no i'm afraid i don't right do you

00:33:19 no i'm afraid i don't right do you remember how you provided them the means of communication it would have been an email an email

00:33:26 [Applause] do you know how ryden provided plans of the building to the lfb um again i would suspect email but i don't know right

00:33:37 don't know right now in paragraph 110 just below you also say

00:33:41 say uh that in the last sentence you believe that ryden left a set of plans in the hub room

00:33:46 hub room as i had seen a set there previously what were those plans of uh they again they were the layout the floor plans right the floor plans of

00:33:57 the floor plans right the floor plans of the

00:33:57 the refurbishment as completed yes right do you know what happened to those uh no i saw them there at one point but i i don't even know when i saw them there probably

00:34:08 probably in 2016. right where is the hub room um as you go into the ground floor lobby it backs on onto the lobby on the

00:34:20 it backs on onto the lobby on the left-hand side right so effectively the fire panel was on the wall of the hub room so it connected through to the gear in the hub room i see

00:34:31 now continuing on the same theme in the same paragraph you say there had been discussion this is at the beginning of the paragraph there had been discussion with lfb about the

00:34:42 been discussion with lfb about the property

00:34:43 property premises information box i specifically remember that at two different bi-monthly meetings different lfb officers had said that the plans would be on their database and anyone attending from lfb would have a device or ipad on which to

00:34:55 would have a device or ipad on which to call up the floor plans you see that yes can you remember when that discussion happened um no i think this is

00:35:06 um no i think this is the the generalized the paragraph is my recollection i do not know which meetings i'm afraid right um you say there had been discussion about the property premises information

00:35:18 about the property premises information box yes

00:35:19 box yes do you remember what the discussion was about

00:35:22 about um the pros and cons of such a box which contain it would contain perhaps floor plans and other things but the there was

00:35:34 and other things but the there was discussion about um that the use of it whether they got vandalized more than they were useful

00:35:44 useful and the fire brigade said well all their information was on a database anyway and that when anybody turned up they would have access to the system through whatever

00:35:55 through whatever their devices they said it's like an ipad and they said they should just be able to call it up so say pros and cons of the premises information box were you ever asked to provide

00:36:08 were you ever asked to provide information to the nfb whether the fire safety team or local officers as the case may be for the purposes of their uploading onto their database

00:36:21 no i believe they got it from building control right i see so they never came to you

00:36:28 to you personally or to your knowledge anybody else at the tmo and said we now need to upload information about grenfell tower onto our database so that we can access it from our mobile

00:36:39 so that we can access it from our mobile data terminals can we please have it no they didn't ask that but

00:36:43 that but so it was always my understanding they got it through building control because they had been part of that process because of their involvement with the scheme can we now look please at cst

00:36:54 look please at cst 50178

00:36:59 this is an email of the 13th of march 2014

00:37:03 2014 from bruce stones to you to janice ray and to others in which he summarizes his own understanding of what had transpired at the 12th of march 2014 visit with the lfb which we discussed at

00:37:15 visit with the lfb which we discussed at some length yesterday if you go to page three and look at the the bottom of the email on page three

00:37:29 you'll see he says uh it's actually three paragraphs above his signature he says propose do you see where he says proposed premises information packs

00:37:40 proposed premises information packs yes i'll just read it he says proposed premises information packs are held in at reception in event of emergency to pass on to fire brigade and fb have their own database system to which lancaster west should be added and if we

00:37:55 should be added and if we next look before i come to a question at

00:38:00 cst402199 we looked at this yesterday it's the letter that carl stokes wrote to you on the 18th of march do you remember that uh answering questions raised by the lfb

00:38:12 uh answering questions raised by the lfb during their 12th of march visit if you look at page four in that document you can see

00:38:20 that at the foot of that page there's a um a section dealing with premises information packs and other information and he says there the fire officers asked about the providing of premises information packs

00:38:32 information packs i would strongly recommend that these are not provided how did you go about reconciling lfb's clear request for premises information packs

00:38:42 packs in the email i've just shown you with karl stock stokes's recommendation in this letter to you um i don't believe it was

00:38:54 um i don't believe it was as clear recommendation from the lfb as you have mentioned it was a discussion about them and i say that the discussion was about the realities of how useful they

00:39:06 about the realities of how useful they were because quite often these boxes were vandalized people would um

00:39:12 um think there was something valuable in there or whatever so quite often if you go to visit a block that's got one it will have a no door on it and there will be nothing in it so there was discussion about the pros

00:39:24 so there was discussion about the pros and cons of it as i said did you consult anybody in order to arrive at

00:39:29 arrive at a conclusion yourself about whether they should or should not be premises information boxes at grenfell tower there was discussion with the fire brigade

00:39:40 brigade and i don't think i spoke to anybody maybe janice ray and i had a chat afterwards and that the jury was still out as to the validity of it and the fire regated

00:39:52 the validity of it and the fire regated were quite clear that they had alternative means of accessing the floor plan information you say maybe you spoke to janice ray about it i i possibly would have because i think

00:40:03 i think um we needed an outcome and i think as we talked about it the ambivalence towards the use of them meant that we

00:40:14 towards the use of them meant that we were perhaps a little bit both against it

00:40:16 it right but so that's my recollection janice might be more pro than me but so my experience was finding empty boxes in the halls of blocks

00:40:25 blocks let's get going to cst 401131

00:40:34 this is an email from you to janice ray of the 29th of april and and if we look at the foot of page one over to page two

00:40:47 that's where the email starts and over the page on page two is the substance of it

00:40:52 it and just to set it in its chronological context for you miss williams this was after the demonstration of the smokebomb system uh in late april of that year

00:41:05 uh in late april of that year and if you go to um that page you can see you say janice yesterday's demonstration went well apparently i arrived just in time to see the tender drive off two things arose in relation to the lfb

00:41:17 two things arose in relation to the lfb the below is riding feedback and item one at the end of yesterday's bms demonstration the fire brigade asked whether kctma would have any objection to them fitting a secure information box

00:41:28 to them fitting a secure information box in the foyer which would which would contain safety details specific to the tower i said that i would ask with the expectation that this would be something you would welcome

00:41:41 now the response to that from miss ray is on page one let's just look at that

00:41:53 she comes back to you and says well you can see she forwards this to carl stokes fyi

00:41:58 fyi same day and he comes back to janice ray just above that and says the lfb fitting a secure information box in the foyer which would contain safety details

00:42:09 which would contain safety details specific to the tower or the tmo that's his query janice ray goes back to him and says have asked claire to clarify and we have

00:42:21 have asked claire to clarify and we have our regular liaison meeting with lfb tomorrow so have added to agenda they need to advise what info they require access to and his response back to janice ray there is no requirement for the tmo to provide

00:42:33 requirement for the tmo to provide an information box uh were you aware of this exchange um yes i think i was yeah did you think that it was at odds with

00:42:44 did you think that it was at odds with the lfb's request which you were passing on uh to janice ray

00:42:50 ray in the first of the emails in this chain that i've just shown you um sorry that lfb that the people who'd asked ryden were the watches weren't they were the the practical hands-on guys

00:43:02 practical hands-on guys we were meeting the um

00:43:06 the fire brigade seems like within a very short period and say my viewers that discussion was a bit ambivalent about the virtue of them so no i didn't i think there's always

00:43:17 so no i didn't i think there's always pros and cons of different things and the way i phrased it here it looks as though the lfb would fit their own box

00:43:23 box which is um what i'd forgotten

00:43:30 well what did you uh tell janice ray about by way of clarification

00:43:42 about by way of clarification as to whether the lfb should fit the box or whether the tmo should fit the box

00:43:48 i think the only thing she would have seen is this email i don't remember any discussion about whether it was us or them but to say i think from the discussion we had subsequently with the lfb

00:44:00 we had subsequently with the lfb that there was a discussion over virtues and problems with them so i think it was an open discussion i think this is

00:44:11 think this is janice taking advice from our fire risk assessor

00:44:18 well let's just look at the bi-monthly meeting minute for that meeting

00:44:25 let's go please to that it's a tmo one double zero four five six two seven

00:44:36 two seven this is the meeting in may 2016. so only a few days after this email exchange you uh you're not there

00:44:45 there janice ray is as well as nick davis rebecca burton and rebecca burton from the lfb uh it also featured janine fitzgerald

00:44:56 it also featured janine fitzgerald from the tmo and if we go to page 3 please

00:45:03 uh you can see uh that under grenfell tower

00:45:09 nick confirmed that his colleagues had attended the recent demonstration of the fire systems at grenfell tower which had been really helpful janice advised that she'd received some feedback that the lfb work were requesting a premises information box be

00:45:21 requesting a premises information box be installed in the tower nick confirmed that this was the case janus asked him to confirm specifically what documentation lfb require to be stalled in this box nick agreed to do so but advise that the details of the operation of the avs would definitely be

00:45:33 operation of the avs would definitely be required

00:45:35 required so it looks from that as if the lfb made it very clear that they wanted a premises information box to be installed did you know that um

00:45:48 i i didn't know that they i i don't remember knowing that they um asked again right did janice ray not come back to you after this meeting early may and say we need to have a premises information

00:45:59 we need to have a premises information box

00:46:01 box in the foyer at grenfell tower because the lfb have asked for one um i think probably there might have been more discussion but can i note that when the fire panel was put in place

00:46:13 put in place there was in there

00:46:16 probably an a3 laminated sheet giving a description of how to use the aov and where the override systems were

00:46:27 systems were so whereas perhaps there weren't thousands of drawings there was an a3 laminated sheet which described the flaws it described how to use the override system and that was visible in the glazed panel

00:46:39 was visible in the glazed panel just focusing on my question please did miss ray

00:46:43 miss ray come back to you after this meeting and say

00:46:46 say there must be a premises information box as defined as you knew about from carl stokes's letter of the 18th of march in the foyer at granville tower um i

00:46:57 in the foyer at granville tower um i don't remember i'm afraid can i then turn to the question of floor numbering

00:47:03 numbering i'd like to start please on this topic with paragraph 59 of your second witness statement tm00

00:47:11 at page 13.

00:47:16 and you say that i am confident

00:47:28 yeah i'll read the whole paragraph to you it's probably better another example is that i understand that during phase one of the inquiry staff from the nfb gave evidence that the floor numbering at grenfell tower was missing or obscured

00:47:39 obscured i believe that i can provide some context to these observations i'm confident that there was floor numbering at the tower at the time of the fire

00:47:46 the fire as prior to the refurbishment project the communal staircase at grenfell tower was not numbered i recall thinking that there was a need for floor numbering to be installed so i instructed ryden to put floor numbers as part of the works

00:47:58 numbers as part of the works the floor numbers were painted on towards the end of the project in approximately the summer months of 2016. however it is my understanding that some of the floor numbering was rubbed out or obstructed during the gas works that

00:48:10 or obstructed during the gas works that were carried out after the refurbishment the intention was always to redo the floor numbering however at the time of the fire the gas works was still ongoing just to confirm it was your

00:48:21 just to confirm it was your responsibility was it to ensure that floor numbering was installed in the communal staircase

00:48:30 no but i was in the tower a lot i delivered newsletters by hand and i found it confusing to know where i was

00:48:41 was so there was a provision of some in the contract for signage and so i used that provisional sum to actually put numbers on which were

00:48:52 to actually put numbers on which were stenciled at each level in black right so we re-asked the question a slightly different way did you assume responsibility for ensuring

00:49:02 ensuring that there was floor numbering in the communal staircase i chose to instruct that the provisional sum be used for putting the numbers on because i think

00:49:13 think a couple of people had biro written the level of the flaws but i used that staircase a lot and i i found it helpful and i didn't know how

00:49:25 i found it helpful and i didn't know how postman or whatever delivered so i don't think it was my responsibility but it was something i added using a facility i had within the

00:49:36 added using a facility i had within the contract

00:49:38 contract using your words not mine did you choose to instruct the um application of the numbers because of your own observations about

00:49:49 because of your own observations about the inadequacy of what was there or because you had been asked to do that by somebody else it was my own initiative right let's look at tmo one double zero

00:50:02 right let's look at tmo one double zero one double zero nine three

00:50:10 this is an email run in early october 2015

00:50:14 2015 and can we start please on page uh

00:50:19 well actually start there um this is an email

00:50:23 email um from peter madison to judith blakeman copied to you and it's a response i'll come to the response shortly but it's a response to the email that starts

00:50:35 it's a response to the email that starts at the foot of page 2 from judith blakeman to peter madison and to you directly and the substance of it appears on page three

00:50:47 uh with the sentence at the very top of the screen i'm writing to let you have the issues raised with members of the grenfell tower compact at last saturday's surgery with my colleague council

00:50:59 colleague council atkinson in advance of your meeting next week they are as follows and if you look down at point six at the foot of the screen she says this they continue to have an

00:51:10 she says this they continue to have an issue with the numbering of the flaws as do the ward councillors whatever the post office requires the new system of numbering is not effective and could prove dangerous in the event of an emergency the notice notices about

00:51:21 of an emergency the notice notices about the floor number changes are not prominent or secure and in any case would not be helpful to children anyone who does not read english

00:51:28 english or indeed anyone with literacy problems the solution the residents propose is that the lower floors should have a new name such as lower grenfell we believe this issue does require some

00:51:39 we believe this issue does require some further consideration now do you recall that this issue about floor numbering had been the subject of complaint since at least march 2015 when the

00:51:51 since at least march 2015 when the compact was first formed if not before that um yes but um there's a different issue from what we just talked about and the physical

00:52:02 we just talked about and the physical numbering of the floor levels this is about the changing of the numbering of the floor levels with the introduction of the new flats at the lower levels

00:52:13 of the new flats at the lower levels so it's not the physical stenciling of the numbers on the staircase this is about us changing the numbers of the levels to accommodate the new properties i see so just to be clear so

00:52:26 properties i see so just to be clear so far

00:52:27 far what you did on your initiative is get riding to make the numbers clearer and bigger

00:52:32 bigger is that right to actually put them in on the

00:52:35 the on the staircase that that there were only numbers that people had put in in viro

00:52:42 viro so bearing in mind it was um there were 20

00:52:45 20 stories of residential properties if you went up the stairs you didn't know what level you were on until you actually opened and saw the door numbers understand that that was a physical thing this is the

00:52:56 that was a physical thing this is the the post office numbering of of the flaws let's just see how this then progresses uh i put my question again

00:53:07 uh i put my question again it's right isn't it would you accept that the

00:53:10 that the concerns raised here by councillor blakeman about the floor numbering had been the subject of complaint by the grenfell tower compact since at least march 2015 if not before that

00:53:22 that yes that this was with the introduction of the new housing on the lower floors you appreciate previously they had no numbers the lower floors they were called

00:53:32 called ground walkway mezzanine walkway plus one

00:53:37 one was the way that we in-house had always referred to them when we put new properties there they clearly needed an address and so we had to go to the planners who

00:53:49 and so we had to go to the planners who then

00:53:50 then deal with the royal mail who have a procedure as to how you number and name properties ms williams i'm going to cut you off i i just asked i hope it was a shorter question i apologize for cutting you off

00:54:02 apologize for cutting you off but do you accept that the the question the issue about floor numbering in grenfell had been a topic

00:54:10 topic of discussion to put it neutrally from the grenfell tower compact since march 2015 at the very earliest yes very latest yes you do now um let's just look and see what council

00:54:21 let's just look and see what council blakeman raises by way of concerns and she says

00:54:31 at uh she says in paris sixes i've read to you

00:54:36 to you that it could prove dangerous in the event of an emergency uh did you yourself take any steps at this point and this is early october 2015

00:54:47 2015 to ensure that there was appropriate signage in the stairwell um that this is more in the main body of the building not the stairwell

00:54:59 body of the building not the stairwell this is when the new floor numbers were introduced and i'd put it in the newsletter that we were talking to the

00:55:08 to the to the planners about or the royal mail about the numbering and we had temporary signs at one point which as i remember didn't have but they

00:55:21 which as i remember didn't have but they were

00:55:22 were numeric they said this floor has got this number of flats on and it actually laid out the number of flats so it said for example 71 72 some threes and fourths and 576 but they were temporary and i think that

00:55:36 but they were temporary and i think that there was an issue at one point of people pulling them off the walls and we had to replace them on a daily basis until the permanent signage was available

00:55:45 available did you consider how to improve signage for those in the building with literacy problems

00:55:50 problems or who did not speak english as a first language the only signs with wording on were the temporary signs

00:55:59 signs before the new signs and the the new signs even the temporary signs were purely numerical so it would say that the

00:56:10 so it would say that the existing flat started on level four so say

00:56:13 say four and then there would be the numbers of those flats so the only um signs we put up that actually had a written description were saying

00:56:24 a written description were saying something along the lines of remember the floor numbers have changed i think the point that's being made by ms blakeman in the middle of paragraph six is that the notices about floor number changes are not

00:56:35 about floor number changes are not prominent or secure and wouldn't be helpful to children anyone who doesn't read english or anybody with literacy problems my question is did you consider what to do about that

00:56:46 did you consider what to do about that i believe she's referring to the temporary signs and as i've said they weren't numeric but they were quite often pulled down but i say the only thing i can think of

00:56:57 but i say the only thing i can think of when she says about literacy problems is there was

00:57:01 there was say a little reminder notice saying remember the flaws have changed which was

00:57:06 was put by the um the lift buttons councillor blakeman proposed renaming the floor numbers as we can see did you consider that

00:57:18 as we can see did you consider that proposal yourself um we had gone through the prescribed process where you get your addresses and numbering through the

00:57:29 your addresses and numbering through the planners who talk to the royal mail we had thought that we might do something like um minus naught minus two minus one but again that that didn't meet the royal

00:57:42 again that that didn't meet the royal mail procedure which is based on clarity and specifically in case of an emergency so say we we'd looked at a um say a minus number but it would mean the

00:57:53 minus number but it would mean the the ground floor would then probably have been minus two which would have been more confusing to people than starting with naught one two three four and it also it meant that people kept their address

00:58:05 it meant that people kept their address it was it was different which is why you know any change affects people these people

00:58:12 people say many people lived in the building a long time but this you know it was the change that was so different but it meant that people retained their address and say we we were not

00:58:24 and say we we were not able to deviate from the royal mail system which is in process across the country and for good reason while we're on the question of temporary signage can i just show you the two documents we can have them side by side

00:58:36 documents we can have them side by side please

00:58:37 please iws four zeros two three three one and iws four zeros two three one four please

00:58:45 please we can please have those up side by side they're photographs

00:58:53 you refer to the temporary sign in your evidence

00:58:56 evidence uh it is is that the temporary sign on the left hand side i know it's yes that that is and yes this is the one that i'm saying we had we it was with the housing management team and with ryden if either of them saw it

00:59:07 and with ryden if either of them saw it down

00:59:08 down they would reprint and put it back on the wall again but so they they were pulled off the wall frequently um but as i say it is numeric which is why i'm saying there shouldn't

00:59:19 which is why i'm saying there shouldn't be an issue if anybody who didn't speak um english well it's not all numeric is it i mean the the three words at the top are in english they are but i think people are generally sensible and able

00:59:31 people are generally sensible and able to translate this information right can you account for why such a flimsy means of communication was deployed uh these were temporary signs before the

00:59:43 uh these were temporary signs before the new i think they were stoved enamel signs were um were made up i mean they were even more temporary by the fact that they were so easily removed i i i think we assumed people would

00:59:55 i i i think we assumed people would appreciate them being there but to say i think they were pulled off i think this looks like it's taped but we had ones that were

01:00:04 screwed down as well i mean even though temporary why not have something that was a little bit more solid

01:00:10 um i think that ryden were procuring the new signs i don't know if they were going to take a a day or a week to come but this was a temporary measure and i say they were replaced if we found

01:00:22 and i say they were replaced if we found them on the floor they were replaced and say they were actually not always just taped we had them

01:00:28 them um screwed to the wall at one point so we did everything we could but also people would get used to it but to say it is the change that was obviously what caused residents disquiet

01:00:40 disquiet and understandably but so the alternative would have been to renumber the flats which was in my view and more um distressing or more david collins gave

01:00:53 distressing or more david collins gave evidence that this was actually this actually fell off the wall it wasn't pulled off it fell off i think there was um both both events happened i think it was pulled off as well as because as i say we did actually

01:01:05 well as because as i say we did actually secure them more firmly um can we get back to the document we were on then please a moment ago which was the blakeman email this of the 2nd of october 2015. i'd like to just look at paragraph

01:01:16 2015. i'd like to just look at paragraph 7 in that now please page 3. this is t yes thank you very much if we just scroll a little bit further down for you paragraph seven

01:01:29 it says they would like another independent investigation of the arrangements in the event of a fire perhaps this might be better carried out at the end of the project although i think

01:01:37 think they have concerns about what would happen during the works in the event of a fire

01:01:41 a fire especially because of the floor numbering problem this request should also receive further consideration now we've already looked at the concerns raised by simon o'connor and simon camps in their february 2015 project

01:01:53 in their february 2015 project fire risk assessment did councillor blakeman's request here prompt you to seek a further fra from a different assessor

01:02:05 i was copied in i don't think i was the recipient of this email but yeah actually if you go to the bottom of page two you were trying to get now i'm saying i've seen it i didn't think it was too many

01:02:16 it i didn't think it was too many projects to peter but sorry to forgive me it was to both of you i thought i'd show you that but we can look again no don't worry i've got no reason to disbelieve you right um

01:02:27 but i think it would have there was quite a lot of issues here so i suspect i would have sat with peter and and talked about it but to say i think when it says about the floor numbering problem the floor

01:02:39 the floor numbering problem the floor numbering actually

01:02:42 um made it easier for the fire brigade or others in case of emergency to understand where properties were within the building because i think we would have thought i would have talked to

01:02:53 would have talked to peter about this i wouldn't have um because there was a lot of issues we would have sat and gone through them did you discuss with peter madison having another independent inspection of

01:03:04 having another independent inspection of the arrangements by going to a different fire risk assessor and getting a second opinion um i think we would have discussed it all but i don't remember specifically any conversation about

01:03:16 specifically any conversation about any particular item i think obviously there'll be a response which may be more illuminating we'll look at that do you remember whether this email was sent to the complaints team

01:03:28 um i i do not know

01:03:40 uh we can see the response if you want to see that on pages one and two

01:03:47 and in fact this is a draft

01:03:56 it looks like a draft and paragraphs six and seven straddle pages one and two

01:04:07 uh and although it's difficult to see

01:04:11 the the red appears to be uh the last parts at the end so at the top of page two it looks as if peter madison was suggesting

01:04:23 suggesting the words at the end of six we will review this again and come back to you and at the end of seven agreed do you remember whether those items were taken further as mr madison

01:04:34 as mr madison indicated um number six as i say we did look at whether we numbered the naught floors minus two minus one but that that was not

01:04:44 was not acceptable to the authorities um

01:04:50 and on number seven it says we'll receive further consideration so i i i think say i did

01:05:01 so i i i think say i did sit and go through this with peter so obviously it was something that we were looking at right just just a moment ago just in relation to the temporary signs you said that they were pulled off yes

01:05:12 you said that they were pulled off yes and didn't fall off how did you know they were pulled off um ryden were aware um that they would be there in the lift some people come down it would be on the

01:05:24 some people come down it would be on the floor and that people would or people be taking it out of the lift in their hands so it was witnessed by ryden who told you that

01:05:32 you that um it would be linda linda prentice who was their rlo

01:05:38 so linda prentice told you that someone had pulled this sign off within the lift and walked out with it that that

01:05:45 that that she had witnessed it yes okay um now can i move on to 20th of october 2015. not long after this email well i'm sorry to interrupt you i mean that suggests that someone

01:05:56 that suggests that someone might have taken a sign away as an aid memoir for future reference but did you have any reason we saw a photograph for example the one on the floor do you have any reason to think that that one was simply pulled off and

01:06:08 that one was simply pulled off and dropped rather than falling off under its own weight i think there was some and some i think the initial ones that perhaps were taped up

01:06:16 up clearly that wasn't a great solution which is why they were then say screwed to the wall because they were laminated but to say i think you know i don't think they were always taken um maliciously i think people

01:06:28 taken um maliciously i think people you know kids would just pull them down or whatever if they were taped because we had them taped in the lift car as well which she appreciates a metal finish and so that they would just take them off yes and also in a lift car

01:06:39 off yes and also in a lift car people inclined sometimes to rub off against the walls if there are a lot of people there and that may not have helped

01:06:45 helped yeah so i think the ones on the outside where we could as i say screw fix them to the tiling or to the wall lasted a lot longer but the ones that we

01:06:56 lasted a lot longer but the ones that we just tried to in the car just to remind people you know it was only a promise all right thank you very much can we move on then to rbk3013998 please

01:07:09 uh this is a bi-monthly meeting minute 20th of october 2015. we can see that you are there as is janice ray and from

01:07:20 you are there as is janice ray and from the lfb

01:07:21 the lfb dan halesey rebecca burton not there

01:07:26 and if you go to page three please you can see paragraph eight

01:07:33 uh grenfell tower floor numbering uh and you say claire wait says claire briefed the group on the issue of floor numbering at grenfell tower

01:07:41 tower specifically to take account of the new residential flaws that have been proposed that we renumber the flaws in sequence

01:07:46 sequence ground first second etc the flat numbers and postcodes etc will be unaffected it would merely mean that those living on the floor currently referred to as 20 would in future be living on floor 23

01:07:57 would in future be living on floor 23 however we're keen to get the lfb's view on this

01:07:59 on this dan advised that from the perspective of the lfb's operational crews the overriding issue is to ensure that there is signage at ground level where the lfb enters the block which clearly highlights which flat numbers are located on which floor

01:08:11 flat numbers are located on which floor levels

01:08:12 levels he also recommended that signs be placed at each lift lobby to clarify which level this is and what flat numbers are located on that specific floor

01:08:19 floor provided signage is adequately addressed the lfe should be able to accommodate whichever floor numbering sequence is adopted

01:08:25 adopted however on reflection if crews from outside the local area are required to respond to an emergency at this block it is likely that the more obvious and straightforward floor numbering sequence

01:08:36 straightforward floor numbering sequence ground

01:08:36 ground first second would facilitate the most speedy and effective response do you remember whether it was you who actually raised this issue at this meeting

01:08:44 meeting it appears that you briefed the group on it so it looks like you did yes i think i did because say previously the lower floors of grenfell weren't numbered

01:08:55 numbered until you got to what was effectively the fourth floor where that that became floor one so you had ground floor and then a couple of floors up was floor one

01:09:06 then a couple of floors up was floor one there were there were two two or three lower floors that had no no number they were just called walkway mexican

01:09:14 mexican something of that sort was the issue of numbering specifically in the stairwells discussed at this meeting it doesn't appear so from the minute no this again is as you say in the main

01:09:25 no this again is as you say in the main um

01:09:26 um lobby and the lift right area i see now this of course was in october 2015. was your response to what the to this discussion with the lfb to put up the

01:09:37 up the um taped vinyl clad uh sheets that we saw in the photographs um they might have been there before

01:09:48 um they might have been there before this time

01:09:49 this time and you appreciate with the signage there is by laura a size of typeface you have to use so we would comply with that now can we go to art405099

01:10:00 go to art405099 please art four zero is five zero nine nine this is an email chain on the 10th of november 2015. so a little bit after the bi-monthly meeting we've just looked at

01:10:11 meeting we've just looked at and it's from andrew malcolm to gary martin and you're copied in uh it's the foot of the page uh and it says

01:10:20 says in fact i think i have i want to go to uh page two where it starts hi neil stroke andrew i've just spoken with james clifton ride in qs regarding the floor number

01:10:32 ride in qs regarding the floor number signage for the stairwell at grenfell tower he has received the tmo brand guidelines but no information as to what is required to cover up the existing floor numbers can you shed some light on this so we can start placing orders

01:10:43 can start placing orders on our suppliers now that you can see that

01:10:47 that this email wasn't sent to you but

01:10:54 does come to you at the foot of page one

01:11:01 the same day do you see that yes gary and claire's absence and as discussed with james on the phone just now i suggest we park until tuesday's progress meeting

01:11:08 meeting claire by copy if you have a chance to pick this up on your return on monday and then you respond on the 16th of november at the top of page one as you can see

01:11:16 can see if we just scroll up to that so you did read the email did you read the whole email chain um i've just read it now yes yep did you read it at the time

01:11:28 read it at the time um possibly yes yeah so you would have seen that

01:11:32 seen that and understood that ryden were looking to order signs to be used in the stairwell yes this is um they they were looking towards something

01:11:43 they they were looking towards something yes well

01:11:44 yes well if you look at the original email we started off with the at the top of page two from gary martin to neil reed

01:11:51 neil reed and andrew malcolm they've been a discussion with the ride in qs regarding the floor number signage for the stairwell at grenfell tower

01:12:03 and they wanted to start making orders say can i take it that you when you received this in copy understood that ryden were looking to order signs to be used in the stairwell yes because

01:12:16 to be used in the stairwell yes because i've said i don't want signs i want painting to that fire escape yes then uh you at the um pick it up and then you reply at the very top of

01:12:27 very top of page one on the 16th of november as i've just

01:12:31 just identified and you say andrew on the staircases i just want to paint finish signs will get nicked straight removed otherwise

01:12:39 otherwise i think i suggested grey with blue numerals the size has to cover the existing this can be done soonest as it is purely a paint job now you say you only wanted a paint

01:12:50 now you say you only wanted a paint finish because signs would get nicked or removed otherwise was that your experience um the people living in grenfell tower in the

01:12:59 in the the staircase there were sometimes signs of antisocial behavior i think

01:13:06 think there was a couple of people who would smoke

01:13:09 smoke in that area rather than in the lobby and

01:13:13 and there had been issues of um debris left that sort of thing it because most people use the lift so the stairwells tended to be fairly quiet so it would be

01:13:27 tended to be fairly quiet so it would be a place if you were going to get up to mischief that was where you would get up to so it was a practical response you say in the next line i think i suggested gray with blue blue numerals who did you suggest that

01:13:39 blue numerals who did you suggest that too um

01:13:39 too um that would have been to probably if gary right didn't know it would have been dave was that before you received was that before you received the email

01:13:50 was that before you received the email from andrew malcolm by a way of copy on the 10th of november or afterwards um yes i think i'd been speaking to dave hughes who was the ryden um lead but gary was one of his site

01:14:01 um lead but gary was one of his site managers

01:14:03 managers so perhaps it seems like it got lost in translation i see um when you suggested a paint finish rather than signs being ordered uh did you seek any fire safety advice as to what was required from a fire

01:14:15 as to what was required from a fire safety point of view in terms of size visibility and illumination um on the back staircase no because there'd been not much there

01:14:26 because there'd been not much there previously as i said a couple of people had by road numbers but i think we went big on the back staircase i think that they were um nearly a foot high

01:14:39 um nearly a foot high eight inches foot high i think the answer is no to my question the answer is you didn't not in the back staircase can you say the back staircase can you just speak the only staircase so

01:14:51 just speak the only staircase so um

01:14:55 it was cost a factor in not having signs made up

01:14:58 made up but having paint only no

01:15:02 at the time you sent this email when did you understand the job would be completed the job of painting

01:15:09 painting the numerals into the stairwell um it wouldn't be completed until it had been instructed and at the moment it seems like it's still under discussion

01:15:21 well one can read the email i just want to paint finish but when did you understand the job would be completed assuming that this email of the 16th of november 2015 was the instruction to paint it wasn't the instruction to

01:15:33 to paint it wasn't the instruction to paint this was just discourse i was waiting to see what they could offer me right at this time then asking the question slightly more broadly when did you anticipate that the job of

01:15:44 when did you anticipate that the job of painting the numerals into the into the stairwell would be completed um as soon as they had the instruction yeah but can you give me some sort of

01:15:56 yeah but can you give me some sort of time or date um no because at the moment you see there's still discussion over um what so i don't know at what point it

01:16:08 what so i don't know at what point it was instructed i think right did you actually take steps to ensure that it was completed um it was completed because i've seen it and i i knew the numbers were correct

01:16:19 and i i knew the numbers were correct when was that when was the job of painting the numbers into the stairwell completed

01:16:23 completed i don't know right mr chairman we're not at the end of this line of questions but we are moving to a new document and that's probably as convenient

01:16:34 probably as convenient yes all right well we'll have our morning break at that point miss williams again please talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room

01:16:43 the room and we'll resume at 25 to 12 please

01:16:56 right 25 to 12 70s

01:36:37 would you ask mr williams to come back in please

01:36:52 in please right miss williams ready to carry on i am thank you very much yes mr millet yes thank you very much mr chairman ms williams and can we continue with this story um

01:37:03 can we continue with this story um next please at rbk rbk3052621

01:37:12 now i'm going to show you an email here which is from judith blakeman to janice ray and peter madison and also to the complaints team in fact it's primarily to the complaints team

01:37:23 it's primarily to the complaints team uh first of december 2015 you're not copied in on it to make that clear to you and it says this in the event that one of the emergency services receives an urgent call out to attend to a problem in grenfell tower such as a fire within a

01:37:36 grenfell tower such as a fire within a flat how will they easily locate the address

01:37:39 address there are no signs either beside the lifts or in the lifts to indicate the new floor numbers where the flats are located the previous very sensible numbering system has as you know been changed causing significant confusion especially

01:37:51 causing significant confusion especially for visitors if the emergency services had to attend a flat urgently this is not helpful please do not just put up a temporary piece of paper setting out the new floor numbers each

01:38:02 setting out the new floor numbers each time this has happened it has been removed

01:38:04 removed i would appreciate a swift response uh now you as i say were not copied in on that

01:38:11 on that were you made aware of this complaint at this time

01:38:14 this time no uh

01:38:19 no uh was it factually correct that as at or around the 1st of december there were no signs

01:38:24 signs either beside the lifts or in the lifts to indicate the new floor numbers where the flats are located i wouldn't know right because i don't know if she's been there

01:38:35 because i don't know if she's been there or if this is just a report from a resident saying they're not there it could be that meantime a sign has gone up even if it's only a temporary one until the fitting of the permanent signage can we

01:38:47 fitting of the permanent signage can we go to tm00842-738 taking the story a little bit further forward into december 2015 this is another email from councillor blakeman to janice ray

01:38:59 blakeman to janice ray with a picture of the temporary sign on the floor that i showed you earlier and she writes and again you're not copied in on this she writes please see the attached photograph

01:39:10 the attached photograph i'm afraid short term sticking plaster solutions like this to serious problems do not work given the concerns expressed by the fire brigade following the fire at adair tower

01:39:19 tower can we please ensure that new floor numbering at grenfell tower is done properly clearly and permanently at every floor not in this temporary manner i'm keeping this complaint at stage one for the moment

01:39:29 moment but in view of the seriousness of this matter may have to refer to stage two if there is no swift and satisfactory response

01:39:36 response were you aware of this further email or complaint from councillor blakeman yourself

01:39:40 yourself no right so can we take it that janice ray didn't take this up with you um yes right

01:39:52 do you remember whether either you or anybody else at the tmo sought any advice from carl stokes about floor numbering

01:40:01 i did not you did not uh let's see how we go with this then can we go to cst4020 please

01:40:11 this is an email from carl stokes

01:40:18 to janice ray dated 16th december 2015 not copied to you and if we go to uh item five please

01:40:29 to uh item five please he says the floor level numbers on the walls of the staircase landings are suitable

01:40:34 suitable as are the temporary lift lobby signs and i believe that the permanent signs for the ground floor lift lobby area and the walkway lift lobby area are to be ordered soon i would recommend that these signs showing which flats are

01:40:45 that these signs showing which flats are located on which floor level are in a large font and the signs are preeminently fixed to the walls by the lifts now it looks from this is if advice was sought or given by

01:40:57 sought or given by at least given by this date by carl stokes did you know that carl stakes was advising on the floor numbers um no

01:41:07 um no and i take it you didn't see this email is that right um no right do you know where the stenciling of floor numbers was discussed with the lfb

01:41:19 with the lfb no i don't know whether it was discussed i did not discuss it you didn't discuss it

01:41:24 it i see so janice ray didn't have any discussion with you about her discussion with the lfb in december

01:41:32 december about stenciling no no can we then look on

01:41:35 on tmo one double zero four four three seven six

01:41:53 tma10044376 this is an email from carl stokes to you a copy to janice ray dated the 20th of january 2016.

01:42:06 and uh it's a response if one goes to page two not yet but i'll tell you it's a response to a message from him uh in

01:42:19 him uh in uh on the 20 on the 15th of january 2015.

01:42:23 2015. and if you look at it he says good afternoon claire reference your list of items to discuss regarding grenfell i'm meeting janice next tuesday at 12 30 at the hub

01:42:34 at 12 30 at the hub to go over some fire safety issues could we discuss the grenfell items at this time as well please could i also add to your list and then he

01:42:44 he sets out a number of things and then says carl at the bottom so that's off your screen if we can just scroll up please and then below carl he says your items were

01:42:55 were you see that and then below that number four

01:42:59 four fire escape signage yes do you think you also spoke about signage for floor numbering with carl stokes or communicated with him about that subject

01:43:14 i do not remember talking to carl about the planning stroke royal mail allocated floor level

01:43:25 royal mail allocated floor level approach what about signage more generally

01:43:33 i don't remember talking to him about it but we would have explained to him um what we were looking to do

01:43:40 to do and obviously he would know that there would be prescribed um signage for fire escape did you ever seek carl stokes's advice or approval

01:43:51 or approval of the approach to signs floor floor signs in the stairwell that you were proposing no why is that

01:44:02 the signage in the lift lobby areas as i say was prescribed in terms of what you need for

01:44:08 need for a means of escape at the back um in the staircase i didn't talk to him about it because

01:44:19 i didn't talk to him about it because initially

01:44:21 initially it wasn't proposed as i say something that i instigated when i um found that there was a

01:44:29 the numbering system there was um reliant on residents having written in um biro

01:44:35 um biro so no i didn't talk to him about it so when

01:44:39 when on your list you had item four fire escape signage what was it that you were hoping to get from carl stokes on that topic um that would be explaining the signage

01:44:51 um that would be explaining the signage that was proposed in the lift lobbies what and where

01:45:02 what and where what advice were you seeking what did you want him to tell you um it was to talk through the proposal so that he was aware of it and if he had

01:45:13 so that he was aware of it and if he had any

01:45:14 any qualms he could voice them i see and did you have a discussion about fire escape signage in that context with carl stokes um it obviously i'm i i

01:45:26 it obviously i'm i i i'm only looking at what we've got now but we would have gone through everything on a point-by-point basis now can we go back to your second witness statement please

01:45:37 witness statement please at paragraph 59

01:45:52 and you say there in the uh and i've shown you this paragraph already um but you go on to say four lines up

01:46:04 um but you go on to say four lines up from the bottom of the paragraph however it is my understanding that some of the floor numbering was rubbed out or obstructed during the gas works that were carried out after the refurbishment the intention was always to redo the floor numbering however at the time of

01:46:15 floor numbering however at the time of the fire the gas works was still ongoing i just want to show you one or two photographs of the floor numbers and can we please go to an rhx

01:46:26 and can we please go to an rhx six zeros 12

01:46:31 at page 164

01:46:36 rhx this is a photograph contained in rodney hancock's experts report to the inquiry on gas engineering and he on that page you can see that

01:46:47 and he on that page you can see that there are

01:46:48 there are two photographs uh one with a large red four on it and then a blown up version of the same image

01:46:59 a blown up version of the same image do you see that yes now looking at the small

01:47:02 small black number below the light fitting is that what

01:47:06 that what the floor numbering looked like in the stairwell

01:47:10 stairwell at the time of the fire

01:47:17 i don't believe so i don't know what stage these so when did you say these photographs were taken these photographs were taken after the fire

01:47:24 the fire were they okay

01:47:27 so more likely that the the small black ones rather than the big orange ones yes yes and uh are the small black numbers

01:47:40 yes and uh are the small black numbers fairly representative of the numbering on each floor at the time of the fire i think they look a bit small to me i thought they were they were bigger in my recollection right but

01:47:50 right but at any event uh the big red four wasn't the way in which the flaws were numbered no no it was stenciled

01:47:59 stenciled now can we go to page 166 of this report just two pages on and you can see there another photograph and can you see that again you've got a smaller version and a bigger version

01:48:11 smaller version and a bigger version this is floor six yeah as you can tell from the spray painted number in the top image and then the blown up version small the bigger scale image below it you can see that the number six has been obscured

01:48:24 that the number six has been obscured uh by the light fitting being moved down the wall in order to accommodate the black gas pipe and the boxing in immediately above it do you see that yes

01:48:36 do you see that yes is that what you mean in your statement by saying that the numbers were obstructed by the gas works yes um what did you mean when you said in your state that they were rubbed out um i think in some cases that they

01:48:50 um i think in some cases that they they'd had something i don't know as a paint finish or something like that that they were

01:48:55 they were um they were obscured by not equipment but by a

01:49:00 but by a paint finish or by um something of that sort so i can't remember what it was but it was a finish rather than equipment right when did you become aware that the floor

01:49:11 when did you become aware that the floor numbers had been obstructed by for example the moving downwards of the light fitting to accommodate the gas works um very late on because you appreciate

01:49:24 um very late on because you appreciate that the gas works were done after ryden's contract had finished

01:49:30 so probably not till 2017 do you know what or do you know why it came about that the floor numbering had become obscured by the moving of the lights

01:49:41 obscured by the moving of the lights i wasn't aware that the gas works were underway

01:49:45 underway until i went to the block at one point to talk to somebody when was that um that's what i'm not sure but it would have been i think it was 17 that i i realized that

01:49:57 i think it was 17 that i i realized that the gas works were underway and that they'd impacted on the um the staircase at that stage were you concerned that the moving of the gas light the moving of the electric

01:50:08 the gas light the moving of the electric lights

01:50:09 lights so as to obscure the numbers because of the gas works would cause a problem or might cause a problem to fire crews attending the building in the event of a fire

01:50:17 fire um i wasn't um involved with the gas works until i saw um you know what was going on so i

01:50:28 um you know what was going on so i didn't know how quickly they were going to finish up so they didn't they didn't as you've seen consistently obscure the numbers um but i say i thought that the gas

01:50:40 um but i say i thought that the gas works were in the staircase were progressing and would be completed shortly so i thought for a short period yes right

01:50:51 thought for a short period yes right did you raise this question of the obscuring of the numbers the floor numbers either with janice ray or with carl stokes or with the lfb

01:51:03 or with carl stokes or with the lfb i did not but bear in mind they'd only been in place since i'd instructed them prior to that that the numbers were borrowed on the staircase no i understand that but having instructed them uh well let

01:51:15 but having instructed them uh well let me ask it this way the black stencil numbers that you see were those the paint job that you had instructed being applied the black ones yes so and i assumed that

01:51:26 the black ones yes so and i assumed that defects

01:51:27 defects which would was the defects appeared the end of the guarantee period was shortly after the fire that we would be coming back and reinstating them right just go back two pages i just want to clarify something

01:51:39 pages i just want to clarify something please go back two pages in this document to the to the four and if you look at the lower photograph there you can see the black stenciled four

01:51:46 four was that the the paint signage that you had instructed be applied

01:51:53 applied um yes they were all close to the light so that you could see the floor number easily were you happy with that size and font um

01:52:04 size and font um yes at the time yes did you take any advice either from carl stakes or any or the lfb about whether that was an appropriate size and font for the floor numbering i did not

01:52:14 did not but i understand that it is bigger than we we required to we require to have right

01:52:26 do you know from your knowledge and i appreciate the level of your involvement in 2017 at the time of the gas works may have been a little bit more limited but do you know from your own knowledge uh

01:52:37 do you know from your own knowledge uh why it was the case that the floor numbering that you had had applied as exemplified by this number four in this photograph had become obscured

01:52:49 in this photograph had become obscured by the moving of the lights sorry will you ask me the question again

01:53:00 sorry will you ask me the question again i'm not sure what you're trying to do yes do you know from your own knowledge why the floor numbering had become obscured by the moving of the lights and that something wasn't done about it so that the floor numbering

01:53:11 so that the floor numbering remained visible no i i wasn't um leading on the gas pipe works as i it was only when i went to the block that i realized that works runned away

01:53:22 that i realized that works runned away so no i wasn't involved i'm afraid can i now

01:53:26 now please turn to the subject of flat entrance doors

01:53:33 mr chairman i think i'll continue yes please do

01:53:36 please do i think steps are being taken to prevent too much disruption

01:53:42 i'm going to ask you about flat entrance doors can we start with met three zeros one nine nine five nine

01:53:52 please

01:54:00 now this is sheamus don lee's uh statement to the metropolitan police sheamus don lee you may help me with this he was a handyman for the tmo

01:54:10 the tmo and he says he raised possible issues with the glazing in the fire doors being used in the replacement scheme and if we turn to page five

01:54:22 and if we turn to page five are you finding this difficult to hear through

01:54:26 through um increasingly i will yeah all right i think we'll we'll stop for a few minutes yeah and see if we can somebody's already gone out to try and sort this out thanks but

01:54:38 sort this out thanks but um we'll stop for five minutes we'll be back at uh should we say back at midday very good mr chairman yes is there any reason not to all right thank you if it stops i'll be happy to come back yes of course

01:54:50 happy to come back yes of course well maybe it stopped already but i think we'll just give it five minutes to settle down thank you

01:55:05 thank you all right mr phillip we'll rise thank

01:55:16 you

02:06:25 like disability well it's a little quieter i think we'll keep going as far as we can subject to the witness not feeling

02:06:32 feeling too intimidated yes very good mr chairman let's see how we go would you ask us williams to come back in please

02:06:49 right mr williams i think it's all right to carry on try not to worry about what's going on outside no i i i will try now i do understand it's it's it's a bit distressing but um just listen to the questions and

02:07:01 but um just listen to the questions and try and answer them succinctly and forget about what's going on thank you all right

02:07:06 all right thank you yes um uh thank you very much mr chairman uh ms williams can we please have back on the screen m-e-t-3019959

02:07:29 and uh this is page five of the statement of sheamus dunlee who was a handyman for the tmo which he gave to the metropolitan police

02:07:40 which he gave to the metropolitan police it's part of their investigation and if you go

02:07:43 you go please to the bottom of page five he says i've been reading articles about the fire doors in grenfell tower i can say personally that when they

02:07:54 i can say personally that when they installed those fire doors they took out the doors that they took out doors that were much better i said to claire williams if you turn the page who was a project manager on the refurb these doors are rubbish how can a fire door have glass in it do

02:08:07 how can a fire door have glass in it do you remember that conversation no do you remember reporting anything about that topic to janice ray no

02:08:22 that topic to janice ray no do you remember whether anybody at the tmo

02:08:25 tmo checked whether the glass panels used in the doors were of a sufficient standard i'm trying to think which doors they were because the flat doors didn't have glass in them so he's obviously thinking of a specific

02:08:37 so he's obviously thinking of a specific door a fire door would normally have georgian wired glass in it so i cannot think which door he's even thinking of i see can we then go on uh to the top of

02:08:48 i see can we then go on uh to the top of the next page where we were and the next paragraph down he says the old fire doors which were replaced were not multi-lock doors they had two locks

02:08:56 locks one was a deadlock they had three types of door that you could have chosen one was solid one had a glass rectangle and one had glass across the top in a dome shape it was up to the resident which type of door they liked i thought

02:09:07 which type of door they liked i thought how can that be a fire door they just had plain glass in them not with any wire and he goes on uh just after the warranty rank well let me just pause there does that help you

02:09:19 me just pause there does that help you um with your recollection about discussions about residents flat front doors no i'm afraid it doesn't because this was before my time it looks like

02:09:31 this was before my time it looks like residents were giving some sort of choice but my recollection is that all the doors that were there were solid doors right i see so you don't recall any discussion after your in your time from september 13 about

02:09:45 in your time from september 13 about whether or not the residents flat front doors if they had glass in them were proper safety doors no i i so and i don't remember any doors being

02:09:53 being glazed i my recollection is that all the residence doors were solid doors right that's your recollection is it yes um then he goes on uh if we look at the next paragraph down just after the

02:10:05 the next paragraph down just after the warranty ran out the doors started going wrong

02:10:07 wrong they had indoor eternal door closers that were pulling out from the door because they had tiny little screws holding them in and they had a massive fat spring inside the door had a hole drilled into it had an enclosed spring that went into the

02:10:18 an enclosed spring that went into the door

02:10:19 door and would have a chain which attached to the frame the springs were quite big and the screws that were holding them in were too small some of the screws were pulling out of the door and some were pulling out of the frame if it's coming out of the frame

02:10:30 if it's coming out of the frame or the door the chain goes round you can't shut the door you can't reattach it because of the fixings say i would have no alternative but to remove it i think i did this to about 10 doors

02:10:42 i think i did this to about 10 doors one of the door closes that i took off i showed to someone from management in my office i can't remember who it was it could have been janice ray or claire williams

02:10:52 williams i said that the closing mechanisms are far too much for the weight of the door i think that the closers that they were using were old stock because the casings were rusty not that they stopped it working i got no response from management after

02:11:05 i got no response from management after i showed them the door closers that had removed

02:11:07 removed not a thing it was basically sorted out obviously no one was going to come back to repair the doors so i couldn't so all i could do was remove the door closer this now made that an illegal

02:11:18 closer this now made that an illegal door because with the door the clothes are pulled out the door wouldn't self shut i said that to claire williams

02:11:24 williams janice ray and i think i would have told nicola

02:11:29 nicola do you recall sheamus dunlee raising this issue about door closers with you no i don't and i know that those

02:11:40 no i don't and i know that those doors should have had door closers so no i do not remember him raising this with me at all

02:11:46 me at all right so you don't remember seamus dunley

02:11:50 dunley showing you uh the mechanism no i don't i don't believe he did you don't believe he did no or is it you just don't recall him doing it

02:11:59 doing it um i don't recall and i still don't believe

02:12:04 believe he did because i think i would have remembered this issue right and do you recall that he showed the door closes he'd removed

02:12:15 removed to janice ray i i i don't know you don't know that at all he says in the penultimate paragraph on the page i've just read to you uh that the door was an illegal door because with the door closer

02:12:27 because with the door closer with the door closer removed the door wouldn't self shut and he says he told you that and janice ray

02:12:34 ray again do you remember him telling you that the door wouldn't sell shut because it had a door closer removed no i didn't know he'd done this and i didn't know he'd done it to about 10

02:12:46 didn't know he'd done it to about 10 doors

02:12:47 doors so no i i i claim ignorance on this right issue i see um can i then ask you about lifts

02:12:58 i see um can i then ask you about lifts now at the time of your involvement with the grenfell tower refurbishment were you under the impression that the lifts had an automatic fire recall system

02:13:07 um i didn't know that about the lifts i think i've queried with their firefighting i was not sure about how the lifts worked at all they weren't in my

02:13:20 area of knowledge right now you're right we you did query that we saw that yesterday

02:13:25 yesterday with carl stakes and he came back to you with the definition of a fireman's lift as opposed to a fire fighting lift you remember that exchange i do from yesterday can we look at again at an email chain between you and simon

02:13:36 at an email chain between you and simon lawrence

02:13:37 lawrence in september 2015 tmo double zero 859

02:13:42 283

02:13:46 and if we go to page three in that email run

02:13:53 you can see that he writes to you on the 10th of september 2015 and he's replying to a request just to set this in context that you had put to him uh the same day on page

02:14:07 put to him uh the same day on page four which you'll just quickly look at that to set it in context for you and you'd asked him or you said to him further to our telecon of today can you please confirm your contractors have adjusted the current two lifts

02:14:19 adjusted the current two lifts to both stop at walkway level two rather than ground street level in case of fire and then going up to page three his response

02:14:27 response is claire i've had a chat with jason and apparently i was wrong during early fire brigade meetings with simon oh

02:14:35 simon oh we were told that the lifts have to be brought down to the ground in case of emergency which what they still do on the phone you said that there was a fire alarm which brought the lifts down to ground i can't understand how that is possible

02:14:47 i can't understand how that is possible because you do not have any audible fire alarms in the communal areas in addition to this i don't believe that the existing panel by the walkway entrance door is working anyway so i'm not sure what has happened do you

02:14:59 so i'm not sure what has happened do you have any more information it is possible that the lift alarm button was pressed by the resident in error which brought the lift down now can you explain what these emails were actually about can you give some context to them yes i

02:15:13 can you give some context to them yes i believe just by looking at the last paragraph of simon lawrence's email that at one point we moved the access um

02:15:26 moved the access um to the building from the ground floor to what we called walkway level um this was because ryden were working in the lower floors

02:15:37 ryden were working in the lower floors it was effectively their building site so to ensure residents didn't go down to the the ground floor where there was no access or egress

02:15:52 i was asking can you confirm that the lift now stops at that walkway level i think there was an issue where a resident did an error

02:16:04 an error go down to the ground floor which is as i say part of ryden's building compound and what they had

02:16:11 had they'd formed a hoarding so that residents weren't able to get into the working area which would obviously have been unsafe full of building materials etc so i

02:16:23 full of building materials etc so i think this is in response i'm asking him can we stop the lift at walkway level so that residents do not get confused and do not go down

02:16:34 and do not go down to ground to get out what does that tell us about

02:16:38 us about what the lifts do in the event of a fire um he's saying that they do always come down to ground and what we actually did we kept them going down to ground but as

02:16:49 we kept them going down to ground but as i say the hoarding around each lift lobby in their working area they put a key code on it so that if somebody did go down by

02:17:00 so that if somebody did go down by accident

02:17:01 accident it was not just a hoarding it was a hoarding beyond which they could not go so it meant residents even if they did by accident go down they were not put into the building site

02:17:13 they were not put into the building site they were actually stopped at the hoarding

02:17:15 hoarding so the lift still went down to the ground all the time ryden had the lower floors of their building area so residents had to remember to go to walkway and i believe there was another

02:17:26 walkway and i believe there was another set of notices put in the lift saying remember you have to exit the building up walk where your works are underway yes that but what about sorry my question was what about in the event of a

02:17:37 in the event of a fire what was your impression did you were you under the impression that the lifts would automatically go down to the ground floor um i i think that there's again probably

02:17:48 that there's again probably conversations with others but to say i i think somebody had asked me does it automatically go down to the ground

02:17:56 ground floor and i wasn't clear so that's what this

02:17:59 this this chain of emails was about but i say i think the question did come up because a resident went down to a lower floor where they actually had no um means

02:18:10 where they actually had no um means of getting out of the building we can see your response at the bottom of page two

02:18:13 two over onto page three the next day eleventh of september uh you you say at the bottom of page two hi simon after our conversation

02:18:24 hi simon after our conversation i've asked about audible alarms and we'll check with alex bosman chubb on the fire panels and then over onto page three in the last paragraph meantime there is an issue if the lift goes to ground

02:18:36 an issue if the lift goes to ground as residents cannot escape from within your cordon i am mindful that you're away next week so can you please pick up with h s stroke cdn and artelia how this

02:18:47 with h s stroke cdn and artelia how this needs to work in order to ensure safety for residents and any visitors and if we go to the response to that on page one before i come to my question simon lawrence has a lengthy answer to

02:18:58 simon lawrence has a lengthy answer to you on page one and over on to page two but he says morning claire i understand your concern but i don't believe you have any working systems within grenfell that will send the lift to ground in case of a fire

02:19:09 the lift to ground in case of a fire in any case there certainly aren't any audible alarms apart from the smoke detectors within resident zone flats and a lift button that residents press if they're stuck in a broken lift i believe that you only have at an existing visual alarm panel and walkway

02:19:21 existing visual alarm panel and walkway level inside the front door which flashes the light of a smoke detector in the communal is tripped it can't be connected to the lifts because over the past year there has been flashes and flashing lights which when smokeheads have been tripped or faulty

02:19:32 faulty but the lifts still work fine

02:19:39 now were you looking at that were you concerned by simon lawrence's response that there was no working system that sent the lifts to ground in case of a fire um

02:19:53 in case of a fire um no because i i was asking in specific relation to this resident who said they got trapped there and there was something about an alarm system so i'm just trying to clarify

02:20:06 um but i don't know what the status is with the lifts and whether they should return to the ground in case of a fire well

02:20:14 well you were being told pretty clearly weren't you here by simon lawrence that in the event of a fire uh there was nothing which would send the lifts to either the ground floor or the walkway level

02:20:26 the walkway level yes you had to press whichever floor you wanted to go to did that not tell you that this was not an operating firefighting lift again that's the area

02:20:37 firefighting lift again that's the area that i

02:20:38 that i is not within my knowledge so i wouldn't have known whether that was good good bad or um appropriate so that's why i'm glad we had lift servicing contracts

02:20:50 had lift servicing contracts right did let's take this slightly more in stages did you know whether the connection between the lift controller and the smoke detection system had been

02:21:01 and the smoke detection system had been disconnected or was not working

02:21:05 um i i'm not clear whether the two ever were interfaced you're not clear whether the two were ever interfere are

02:21:16 whether the two were ever interfere are you saying you knew they weren't no i'm saying i'm not clear whether they were ever i don't know whether the smoke detection system automatically took the lift to ground floor or not i don't know you don't know did you invest have you

02:21:28 you don't know did you invest have you been alerted to the point did you investigate the question as to whether uh they're ought or not to have been a smoke detection system link with the lift controller um no because i'm

02:21:40 um no because i'm working on an existing building that's been there since 1974 and the lift has been refurbished renewed

02:21:48 renewed sort of four years before i started my contract works so i'm taking on an existing um it's an existing lift with an existing situation i'm um and say you've understood from

02:22:00 i'm um and say you've understood from this

02:22:01 this that my knowledge of lifts um is very limited well we see your response to this message at the top of page one you pass this on to janice ray

02:22:12 to janice ray on the fifth of october three weeks later

02:22:16 later you see you say jan is please can you can you please look at this i know that peter madison has told you about this situation with the lift which does not go to ground floor in case of fire as it is not attached to any system the

02:22:28 as it is not attached to any system the concern is that at first and ground you end up in a contractor's enclosure maybe two meters by four meters long with a digital lock on to prevent residents wandering onto site i will

02:22:40 residents wandering onto site i will book you with alex asap tar claire williams um first of all why did you wait three weeks before sending this to janice ray

02:22:49 um i don't know but i have done what i needed to do which was in my role liaise with other departments and make sure people were aware did you liaise with any departments

02:23:01 did you liaise with any departments other than janice ray before the 5th of october

02:23:03 october on the point that simon lawrence had drawn to your attention um possibly because alex bosman was the contracts manager who managed the service contracts for the lift so it could be that i did conversations

02:23:16 so it could be that i did conversations with him and thought you know let's get the pertinent people together i'm bringing it to their attention i'm not the person to action some of these issues but i'm bringing it to their attention so you would have do you remember that do you actually remember

02:23:28 remember taking simon lawrence's concern about the

02:23:31 the disconnection of the lifts from the smoke system and asking alex bozeman to investigate it

02:23:38 it um i don't remember but he sat as near to me as i am to you mr millet uh did it occur to you that in the absence of an automatic recall function in the event

02:23:49 automatic recall function in the event of a fire being detected the lift would not return to the ground floor or

02:23:54 floor or or the walkway level as the case may be that is what seemed to be the situation and i was checking with the appropriate people if they were aware of it and if that was a satisfactory arrangement because it's something that was outside

02:24:06 because it's something that was outside my knowledge do you remember whether you or anybody else at the tmo raised that question with carl stokes um i don't know janice would have been the person who would have done that

02:24:18 person who would have done that but it could be all all was fine but i am just there to make sure people are aware

02:24:23 aware i appreciate that this arose in the course of

02:24:26 course of the refurbishment did it come to your attention

02:24:30 attention what i'm really seeking to establish is is is how

02:24:33 is is how far forward you took this concern yeah so

02:24:36 so you see i've taken it to health and safety and i've taken it to our contracts team who managed the servicing contract did you follow up with janice ray or alex bosman to get an answer so that you could then go back to

02:24:47 answer so that you could then go back to simon lawrence and answer his concerns or questions um i would like to think i rounded the circle i i hadn't seen any minutes of

02:24:58 circle i i hadn't seen any minutes of the meeting that i had with janice and alex to tell you what did happen next you see mr lawrence was concerned not only for the residents in the building but also the health and safety of his

02:25:09 but also the health and safety of his own

02:25:10 own team and it would have been would it not have been important for mr lawrence to have an answer to this question um in the conversation he was just explaining the situation to me um

02:25:22 explaining the situation to me um because i think we'd taken up with him the issue of the resident who i say i believe had got gone down to ground and then had been trapped there for a short

02:25:33 had been trapped there for a short period because i don't know whether the lift didn't come back other people took the lift and so the particular resident was stuck behind a cordon

02:25:44 you know and feeling anxious whether they'd ever get out and the lift didn't come back to them automatically presumably because other people were using the lifts and so i was just saying simon how are

02:25:55 and so i was just saying simon how are we going to manage this he's clear the lift as to where the lift goes i'm bringing it to the attention of my organization as to what i understand the situation is and i'm saying is this right did you

02:26:06 and i'm saying is this right did you follow up

02:26:07 follow up i think i did because i think there would have been a meeting with janice and alex that would be minuted but i obviously this is six years ago so i would not be able to give you chapter

02:26:18 i would not be able to give you chapter and verse and what happened subscribe were you at a meeting with janice and alex that where this was minuted do you recall well that that's that's most of the meetings we did do i would take minutes

02:26:31 we did do i would take minutes and i don't remember whether i did or not whether janice did whether it was just an action note or an email i see can i then ask you some questions next about the dry riser

02:26:42 next about the dry riser do you remember chubb undertaking an inspection of the dry riser in october 2014

02:26:47 2014 uh no you don't can we look at tm00857 341 please this is an invoice

02:27:04 341 please this is an invoice from chubb addressed to the tmo and if you go to page two in that document

02:27:13 document you can see that there is a mechanical you just look at it yeah a mechanical service inspection certificate of inspection dated the 27th of october 2014

02:27:25 of october 2014 and it's got a service date due box in which it is written dry riser stack failed

02:27:29 failed bar at inlet fault reported attached you see that

02:27:33 see that yes do you remember receiving that certificate um it would have gone to the contracts team who would have been um

02:27:39 been um working with chubb do you remember receiving this certificate i i wouldn't have received this you didn't i see okay let's see take this shortly then can we go to page three

02:27:51 three we can see that on page three i'm so sorry i'm giving you the wrong i need to go to a different document tmo double zero eight five

02:28:03 double zero eight five eight three zero nine

02:28:11 tmo double zero eight five eight three zero nine page three this is uh uh an email i think from you

02:28:22 i think from you to adrian frith a copy to alex bosman and simon o'connor and you say adrian um please can i ask i'm sorry adrian can i ask

02:28:33 can i ask i'm sorry adrian can i ask that you carry out a service to the dry riser

02:28:35 riser as soon as possible i suspect you normally deal with alex bosman who runs our contract team and this service would normally be arranged by his team however the tmo currently have regeneration works to the block on site

02:28:46 regeneration works to the block on site so i have been asked to make arrangements through the contractor in possession and then you give the details you see that

02:28:52 that and then if you go up to page two you can see his response

02:28:59 on the 13th of april same day adrian frith to you uh hello claire please see attached a certificate cert for the last inspection at grenfell tower also there is a quotation attached

02:29:11 tower also there is a quotation attached for a small repair to the dry riser we haven't had the go ahead on this repair just yet as you can see there is also a smoke vent system on site which needs some repairs but part of this system is in the refurbishment area this is april 15

02:29:24 the refurbishment area this is april 15 and it's from chub right uh

02:29:29 right uh do you remember or do you accept that the dry riser was in need of repair between october 2014

02:29:37 2014 and april 2015.

02:29:41 yes it says that there's a repair are you able to explain how it could be that such an important repair was not actioned by the tmo immediately in october 2014.

02:29:53 the tmo immediately in october 2014. okay i

02:29:56 okay i i do not work in the team that manages the servicing of the lift of the dry riser

02:30:06 obviously they had done a certificate which would have gone to that matt rawlings is one of the people in the contracts team who managed the service contracts

02:30:18 contracts and obviously they hadn't um they'd issued a certificate and it looks as if maybe the contracts team hadn't actioned

02:30:30 maybe the contracts team hadn't actioned anything

02:30:31 anything or maybe there was something else in the background i don't know so he sent me a certificate that he's already sent to another team within the organization i understand that i think what all i'm asking for is are

02:30:43 i think what all i'm asking for is are you able

02:30:45 you able to explain how it comes about that such an important repair was left unrepaired between october 2014 and april 2015. no obviously so that certificate wouldn't have come

02:30:56 so that certificate wouldn't have come to my team so no whose team would it have gone to this is the contracts team who managed the service that's alex bosman it is yes did you when you received

02:31:08 did you when you received your instructions uh in april of 2015 that we can see from your email to adrian frith copied to alex bosman in the second paragraph of which you say i suspect you normally deal with alex

02:31:19 i suspect you normally deal with alex bozeman did you ask alex bosman how it comes about how it came about that the dry riser was left unrepaired from

02:31:28 from from october 2014 uh until april 2015. no why is that um the idea was to get it

02:31:38 resolved not to go back over history that possibly alex wouldn't know well you say alex wouldn't know did you ask him the question alex how come

02:31:49 the question alex how come this dry riser was left unrepaired between uh october last october and now no wise again so i i didn't work in his team i

02:32:00 again so i i didn't work in his team i don't know what what his regime was whether he'd actually gone to somebody other than chubb to fix it for example i don't know do you accept that a functioning dry riser is is an absolutely essential

02:32:13 absolutely essential active fire prevention system in any high-rise building yes so were you not curious to understand how grenfell towers dry riser was left unrepaired between october 2014 and april 2015.

02:32:26 between october 2014 and april 2015. um yes but say because it wouldn't have gone to my team i don't know if there was background information or if it had gone to somebody else to fix i don't know well did you ask mr bosman

02:32:38 i don't know well did you ask mr bosman that question no i did not ask him that question at this stage it needs to be resolved and i wouldn't have i might have had words but i wouldn't have done any more than that

02:32:52 have done any more than that really what i'm seeking to understand is is why you weren't more alarmed when you discovered this fact

02:32:59 fact and taken it up with alex bosman or his superior

02:33:05 um i i think probably i i had my own workload and as i say that there was the the team the contracts team who managed the service

02:33:16 contracts team who managed the service contracts

02:33:18 contracts needed to have dealt with it if they hadn't dealt with it well then i was there

02:33:22 there and obviously needed it working from to get the scheme back on track and for safety but to say i am not going to

02:33:33 spend time on checking what somebody else has done at a point when it needs to be sorted who was alex bosman's

02:33:40 bosman's line manager immediate line manager in mid-april 2015. um that would have been peter madison peter madison so you didn't go to peter madison and say peter i think you should know that

02:33:52 say peter i think you should know that alex bosman has left this dry riser in grenfell tower unrepaired for seven months um but as i say to you i don't know whether he has left it unrepaired but it could be as a

02:34:03 left it unrepaired but it could be as a result of that report he'd gone to another contractor and got it fixed so i am not at that time aware whether somebody else has fixed it but you didn't have the conversation is

02:34:14 but you didn't have the conversation is my question i think um with peter madison i i don't think i would have heard it with peter madison i think

02:34:20 think i i would have gone back to alex's team and said look what's happened to this you know if there's a disparity in dates what's happened but i say it's not to say

02:34:28 say that somebody else hadn't been appointed to go and look at it and i want to move to my final topic with you uh which is about gas works gas mains can

02:34:40 which is about gas works gas mains can we start with tmo double zero eight three six 836672 please

02:34:47 this is an email chain in december 2016

02:34:53 and it it starts at the foot of page one and goes over to page two

02:35:00 page two i'm afraid it's in quite small print but it's from you to tony batty of silcock dawson of the 12th of december 2016 and you say tony further to our conversation this morning i'm asking if you could provide a fee proposal

02:35:11 proposal to facilitate the design of a proposed proposed gas mains to be run within the footprint of grenfell and then over the page you say my concerns are

02:35:24 that their proposal may interfere with the new construction under defects specifically in the communal lobbies charlie saul in alex's team has already approved the proposal in principle

02:35:35 proposal in principle subject to provision of rams and then you identify what the fee proposal should cover

02:35:45 now it it looks from the records that we have that the plans to involve silcox dawson were ultimately abandoned do you remember that um no i'm sorry i'm not sure that i do know

02:35:57 no i'm sorry i'm not sure that i do know that right let me see how we go can i ask you please to be shown met three zeros two three six nine nine

02:36:08 nine nine i'll show you the first page of that document it's tony batty's witness statement to the metropolitan police

02:36:15 on the 26th of april 2018 as you can see there and if we can go please to page 21 in that document

02:36:25 he says uh just below halfway down after the refurb kctmo found out that the gas main in grenfell tower had perished it was heavily corroded within the service riser and say they were getting a company in i

02:36:37 and say they were getting a company in i think trans cable british gas to renew the whole gas main internal to the building they invited us to give a fee proposal but because the works had started we were late on getting back to them they told us to leave it i was surprised by this as we done all

02:36:49 i was surprised by this as we done all of this quality assurance work for kctmo and when it came to putting in a gas main they didn't want us to check it unless they got someone else i don't understand how they could put a gas main in without someone independent

02:37:00 gas main in without someone independent quality checking it unless the company doing it

02:37:02 doing it gave them so many reassurances who was responsible for the decision not to involve silcox dawson do you know um no i don't know do you know the reason why

02:37:13 reason why silcox dawsons weren't involved no i don't can we please go to tm00842-931 842-931

02:37:25 and i'd like to go to page two in that email chain please this is an email chain between you peter madison and alex bosman which had arisen from queries made by councillor blakeman

02:37:41 that's page two

02:37:44 if we um and you can see that's the context it's an email from you to peter madison 29th december 2016. and if you look at item five bottom of page two over to page

02:37:56 page two over to page three um

02:37:59 three um you uh you say renewal of gas mains can you see

02:38:03 you see renewal of gasoline to flats ending with a two alex's team authorized in principle national grid will only replace the failed main not the others that are of the same age i met them on monday 19th december and was shown the

02:38:14 monday 19th december and was shown the internal pipe work route within the lobbies and flats which is tortuous and then there's discussion about over the next page in the third line currently

02:38:26 currently national grid are running a 50 millimeter diameter pipe up the fire escape staircase which will feed the affected flats the pipe work their pipe work in the communal lobby will have to be in fire rated ducting so will impact on the

02:38:38 rated ducting so will impact on the appearance of the lobbies uh the gas pair is due to get a check for 1 000 pounds max for loss of supply from national grid and then if we go to uh the response to that from alex bosman

02:38:52 or an email which is returned on page one

02:38:56 one sixth of january to 2017 uh we can see the first bullet point uh question and answer uh can you please

02:39:07 question and answer uh can you please advise where the new gas pipes will be installed residents were told that these could not be put up externally because of the new cladding but they have been given little information about how the pipes will be installed inside their homes and whether damage to decorations will be made good

02:39:19 damage to decorations will be made good it seems that the installation of new gas meters will also damage the works that have so recently been completed the new gas main this is the answer that comes from alex bosman the new gas main is being installed within the emergency escape stairwell

02:39:31 within the emergency escape stairwell this will then be run at ceiling level and boxed in within each landing where a resident requires gas did you raise any fire safety issues with mr bosman

02:39:43 with mr bosman concerning the gas pipe running through the escape staircase

02:39:49 um so i it was chance that i was there and saw

02:39:53 and saw it um i

02:39:57 it um i i understood that the gas pipes were installed by the statutory undertaker and that they had done their consultation in terms of where they were going to go and getting

02:40:08 going to go and getting regulatory approval so i i did not i my concern and my interest was sparked when i saw the um the pipe work that went into the um

02:40:21 um the pipe work that went into the um communal lobbies and then into the flats because they say it was tortuous and my understanding was that less than 50 of the residents had gas anyway

02:40:31 anyway so they were causing a lot of unnecessary damage for work that wasn't needed so i didn't

02:40:40 didn't get involved at all at the stages where it was going through the staircase and i i'd expect that the statutory authority would understand what the regulations

02:40:51 would understand what the regulations were

02:40:52 were we could see no reference in this email the the one i'm showing on the 6th of january 2017 to pipe work in this in the escape staircase being boxed in fire rated

02:41:04 staircase being boxed in fire rated ducting

02:41:06 ducting was that a matter of concern to you um i wasn't involved with the specification and wasn't familiar with the specification as to where it ran um so it was only

02:41:19 as to where it ran um so it was only literally when i got there and i saw the pipe work and then it went in a very messy configuration to flats that didn't have gas right so i i i

02:41:30 right so i i i the contracts team started this and that they were

02:41:33 they were involved in specification i i i wasn't and i wouldn't know what was appropriate right my question is is this slightly different were you concerned about the fact that there's no reference in this discussion

02:41:45 in this discussion to uh boxing in the pipe work in the in the escape staircase within a fire rated ducting um i wasn't aware of what the full specification was and i didn't know how

02:41:57 specification was and i didn't know how they were going to do it so so is that a no that's a no right um can we go to tm00831 638 please page

02:42:08 please page two in that

02:42:24 this is an email

02:42:29 which uh is from tunde awaderu the vice chair of grenfell tower the gtla in fact and we can see from the foot of page one take it from me it's

02:42:41 take it from me it's uh 7th of march 2017 to peter madison and councillor fielding mellon

02:42:48 mellon copied to a large number of people in including you

02:42:58 and the subject is as you can see from the top of the screen seriously exposed newly installed gas pipeline throughout the entire staircase of grenfell tower poses extremely serious health and

02:43:09 poses extremely serious health and safety risk dear mr peter madison we hope this email finds you very well and in the third paragraph

02:43:22 in the third paragraph uh mr awaderu says could you please kindly provide us the proof or evidences that anywhere at rbkc or in london or in the united kingdom the gas pipeline exposed such a manner

02:43:33 the gas pipeline exposed such a manner and installed beside the staircase only fire escape where there is no air can escape whatsoever and more importantly the staircase of grenfell tower is the main breeding ground and where

02:43:44 is the main breeding ground and where the vandalism and anti-social are daily occurrences this newly installed exposed gas pipeline is easy target of vandalism and one incident can have serious

02:43:55 and one incident can have serious catastrophic consequence for the whole building can you please kindly provide us the health and safety certificate authorize that the kctmo or the national grid that they obtain permission before installing the gas pipe going

02:44:07 before installing the gas pipe going through the entire staircases of the building the logic alone i think it should be dictates that it poses serious health and safety risk for the entire building and it would be

02:44:19 for the entire building and it would be very interesting to hear the expert opinion as well

02:44:24 finally the kctmo has a habit of shooting the messenger because they may not agree with the message but we strongly feel that it's a serious health and safety concern needs clarify

02:44:35 concern needs clarify either from our landlord or from their managing agent the kctmo

02:44:41 now i've read that in full to you uh you've been forward this email if we go up to page one

02:44:50 one you forward this email to charlie saul and anthony cheney on the 8th of march the next day 2017

02:45:01 on the 8th of march the next day 2017 and you say hi you may want to prepare your reply for peter exclamation mark

02:45:09 now first question you can see as i've shown you that this email is from uh mr awaderu but actually comes from the

02:45:18 the or on behalf of the grenfell tower leaseholders association now you don't mention the gtla in your witness statements were you aware of that organization's existence before the 7th of march

02:45:29 the 7th of march 2017. yes you were do you recall receiving emails from the gtla

02:45:36 gtla before 7th of march 2017.

02:45:41 um i would have been one of the people copied in yes as to the substance of this email which i've read at some length to you ms williams were you when you received it were you concerned that a resident

02:45:52 that a resident uh or perhaps a group of residents was raising a serious complaint about the health and safety in the building to do with fire um i had seen it but as i've expressed i

02:46:03 i had seen it but as i've expressed i wasn't

02:46:03 wasn't involved with the discussions with the statutory authority and how they got to where they were whereas the people i'm forwarding

02:46:15 whereas the people i'm forwarding to charlie saul and anthony cheney are in the contracts team and had had been involved with british gas to get to the station that we were at so it was more appropriate

02:46:26 we were at so it was more appropriate that they were aware than myself because i i wasn't involved in this and i i

02:46:32 i i don't have any knowledge that would mean that i would um know the um the pros and cons of how it was done but i would expect my colleagues to have that

02:46:42 that and have dealt with the statute authority in terms of managing it yeah that wasn't my question i'll ask my question again uh

02:46:53 i'll ask my question again uh were you when you saw this email were you concerned that a resident or a group of residents was raising a serious complaint about fire-related health and safety in grenfell tower were you concerned

02:47:08 um i i was concerned that there was an issue that

02:47:14 they wanted addressed and that my colleagues needed to deal with it when you said you may want to prepare your reply for peter exclamation mark

02:47:25 peter exclamation mark what did you mean by that um that the email hadn't gone to the people who'd been involved with the topic i was passing it on and it was quite a long and detailed

02:47:36 long and detailed response required who were the well who were charlie saul and anthony cheney um they're both in they're both in the contracts team um and they both

02:47:48 and they both dealt with gas issues

02:47:54 and how did they relate to peter madison in

02:47:57 in the structure of the hierarchy at tmo peter madison as director managed three teams

02:48:05 teams in the contracts team alex bosman was the

02:48:09 the head of team i don't know if you know the title and these two chaps worked in alex's team so we see that the email went to peter madison

02:48:21 madison why was it wrong to send it to him given that he was the line manager of those people who were the appropriate people to deal with the answer um i didn't say it was wrong

02:48:33 the answer um i didn't say it was wrong right let's see

02:48:38 why were you the person concerned to write to them and ask them to prepare their reply um i don't know if peter was around he might have been out of the office for a couple of days so these

02:48:50 couple of days so these it was giving them a head start right

02:48:56 and do you know what that reply said um no and i might not have been copied in it because i say it wasn't a topic that i was dealing with it was nothing to do with the ryden contract

02:49:07 contract [Applause]

02:49:10 now i've got one or two general questions just at the at the end of my prepared questions going back to matters that we discussed yesterday miss williams um and we talked a little bit together

02:49:22 um and we talked a little bit together about

02:49:23 about uh the relationship between the tmo and the residents of the building did you yourself ever consider whether there was a risk in blaming mr defan

02:49:35 blaming mr defan as an individual for the complaints that others had raised

02:49:43 so did you just repeat did you ever consider whether there was a risk in blaming mr defan for the complaints that others had raised

02:49:53 um i don't think you would automatically blame mr defaun that that's taking it further than i would right um sorry i i think as

02:50:04 um sorry i i think as i might have said yesterday every complaint or issue raised by mr dufan was taken seriously because quite often he would bring things to our attention that maybe other people hadn't

02:50:15 attention that maybe other people hadn't said and he was the forerunner of the um you know telling us there was an issue so i wouldn't say that you know there was no automatic assumption that anything he

02:50:26 automatic assumption that anything he said wasn't right because quite often he was on the on the money he he was picking things up at an early stage but i think he is one resident out of 120

02:50:36 120 so everybody else would also be given equal

02:50:40 equal attention to what they said because everybody lives their lives differently everybody had a different home with different issues so they would all be given um you would

02:50:51 so they would all be given um you would listen to all of them because you can't afford not to

02:50:56 when dealing with mr dufan did you ever consider that in in entertaining his complaints you might miss out on the validity of the content of what he

02:51:08 the validity of the content of what he was complaining about and perhaps others within the building well i think what i've said is that i would never dismiss anything mr dufan said he he owed his ear to the ground and he lived

02:51:19 owed his ear to the ground and he lived there

02:51:19 there so it would be very silly to ignore things

02:51:22 things just because he had a particular name on it

02:51:26 it as i said quite often he was right in bringing things to our attention and i think sometimes it's the way he brought things to our attention that caused

02:51:36 caused issue as you've probably understood um but so he lived then he was as quick as anybody is reporting anything that needed looking at yes and you you say that sometimes it's

02:51:49 yes and you you say that sometimes it's the way he brought things to our attention that caused issues looking back on it might you accept that the tmo had somehow

02:51:59 somehow in its own way confused the medium with the message um

02:52:08 from a personal point of view i think that would be an option but i i'm in the building on a regular basis i'm talking to people regularly so in terms of the issues i was involved

02:52:19 so in terms of the issues i was involved with i would always say pay extra attention to what mr devon said because quite often he was at the front of

02:52:27 front of an issue and got there before other people for to say i think

02:52:33 you do you did get used to the way that you dealt with things which was you know in a certain style and so that that didn't confuse the issue after a while but you just had to

02:52:45 while but you just had to work a little bit hard to get through the use of language or the um sort of tone to understand the issue but i say i i think that that's why when david

02:52:57 i think that that's why when david collins came on board that the compact came to life because there was a different style and so so yeah please don't think that mr dufan

02:53:08 so yeah please don't think that mr dufan was asking us things or telling us things

02:53:12 things that didn't need to be brought to our attention because he invariably did but to say it's a style perhaps it's a little bit confused the issue rather than clarified

02:53:23 confused the issue rather than clarified what systems were in place to prevent either conscious or unconscious bias against the criticisms that the tmo was receiving which might prevent them from being dealt

02:53:34 prevent them from being dealt with objectively

02:53:40 would you just run that past me again of course were there any systems in place

02:53:46 place training or protocols things of that nature

02:53:50 nature which would prevent or minimize bias conscious or unconscious uh against the criticisms that the tma was receiving from residents which might prevent them from being

02:54:02 which might prevent them from being being dealt with objectively um i i understand what you're getting at let me

02:54:10 let me sort of try and formulate an answer i think what has been um put and what probably everybody who's watching this on social media

02:54:21 watching this on social media thinks that there was a group of residents who we didn't listen to and what your question implies that one particular group of residents wasn't listened to because of one man i i don't think that's

02:54:32 one man i i don't think that's that's been the case i think um as i say i think that there were issues over the style of dialogue presented

02:54:40 presented but that that didn't stop people on the ground

02:54:43 ground like myself like the housing management team doing what needed to be neat done i think um you would have to

02:54:54 you would have to read very carefully what the issues were and things would be actioned i think there's probably many examples that you've heard over the last however long which demonstrate that

02:55:07 however long which demonstrate that um i know in my own experience at ryden the issues with the hiu position would be a case in point where we always said we would talk to

02:55:18 where we always said we would talk to people about where they wanted to go and many people who at first said they didn't like the position of the hiu when it was talked through for example um

02:55:30 for example um tunde mr oluwara one of the um leaseholders i met his plumber on site with him

02:55:39 with him and mr collins and we agreed that the whole location was the best location for his particular flat because he'd done a lot of refurbishment and the kitchen and bathroom were glorious so he didn't want extra pipe

02:55:50 glorious so he didn't want extra pipe work going through it mr powers who again was one of the group who weren't happy about the hiu location proposed he actually also had his put in the

02:56:01 he actually also had his put in the hallway after discussion with him so i think what you know we we did take the voices of the individual residents into account because i think you've heard that with

02:56:12 because i think you've heard that with some feeling that perhaps one of the groups wasn't representative but that's we always said we would talk to people about their own home and their own situation face to face which is what we did so and so i think

02:56:25 which is what we did so and so i think you know those are examples of how we worked with people whereas the main um sort of shouting was that we can't do this when it actually came to it with that hiu example we'll just take two examples

02:56:39 we'll just take two examples i'm sorry i didn't want to overspeak i'm sorry just examining those two examples do you accept as a fact that when david collins did come on board

02:56:50 collins did come on board in the spring of 2015 the tmo refused to recognize the grenfell compact until the summer of that year the july of that year after the tmo in residence

02:57:02 of that year after the tmo in residence had met victoria borick the mp that that's probably um there's another issue there because obviously we've heard about

02:57:14 obviously we've heard about um not wanting to have many different resident forums for i but um so i introduced david collins there saying as his approach was

02:57:26 as his approach was um more user-friendly more accessible than mr de farns i i'm so you you've gone back to a subject um

02:57:37 subject um but say i think we've gone over that the history have we not i'm just taking respect and the examples yeah no i i understand what you're saying about the dates um

02:57:47 dates um but i i was referring specifically to the

02:57:51 the um the approach the style yeah and in in in approach on style the h the the hiu units it's right isn't it that the tmo

02:58:02 the tmo in fact only agreed to move those in response to residents many residents complaints after the involvement with victoria borick in april 2015.

02:58:14 april 2015. um yeah i think we had we had been looking at it but as you say i think the time scale was as you say and back to my question if i may just ask it once once more because i'm not sure i've got an answer to it it's a systems question

02:58:26 an answer to it it's a systems question what systems were in place if any to prevent unconscious bias or conscious bias

02:58:31 bias against criticisms that the tma was receiving which might stop them being dealt with objectively

02:58:39 sorry it's a fabulous question there's quite a lot of components to it okay let me try let me try and break it down were there any systems in place training protocols management systems

02:58:50 systems on the subject of unconscious bias let's start with that um i think there were

02:58:57 were courses about equalities act and things of that sort where you deal with unconsciously did you go did you have any training i have not not at the tmo but in other

02:59:09 i have not not at the tmo but in other organizations did you know anybody else who you were working with at the tmo and the time you were working there who had unconscious bias training i i don't know it wouldn't have been part of our day-to-day conversation

02:59:20 part of our day-to-day conversation right did you have any training in how to

02:59:24 to think put yourself in the other person's position

02:59:27 position and think through how to deal with the resident's complaint without allowing unconscious bias uh protection of the tmo to come into it i personally have yes as part of

02:59:38 i personally have yes as part of equalities act or i think there's phrase different ways but over many years i've had many different sorts of training but also

02:59:47 also i work in a housing environment you're talking to housing managers residents a very mixed group of people with different views and different ideas

02:59:58 different views and different ideas and i think that you work in a certain way you work with people you're not there to work against them because that's fruitless and i think the colleague

03:00:09 fruitless and i think the colleague the ethos at the tmo was very good the staff group were very um mixed group they they

03:00:19 reflected to an extent the the local population a lot of them are local so um you know people who work in a house environment you have a particular mindset

03:00:30 mindset you're not um you know you don't work in housing

03:00:34 housing if if it's not the right setting for you people who who don't who can't work with different types of people and different lifestyles don't work in housing

03:00:47 my question was about training at the tmo

03:00:51 tmo although i didn't use those words in my question i'll reformulate it did you at any point have any training at the tmo while at the tmo after september 2013 in how to think and put yourself in the

03:01:03 in how to think and put yourself in the other person's position and work out how to deal with the resident's complaint without allowing unconscious bias to come into it i had no formal training at the time thank you very much ms williams uh

03:01:14 thank you very much ms williams uh i've come to the end of my prepared questions that there may well be further questions that i should have to ask you but i'm going to ask the chairman to break now for lunch and come back at two o'clock for those

03:01:26 and come back at two o'clock for those that yes

03:01:26 that yes mr williams thank you mr miller mrs i'm sure you were hoping to get away by the end of the morning but uh it's not going to be too inconvenient i hope for you to stay over the lunch break is that right no that that's

03:01:38 lunch break is that right no that that's fine i'm prepared thank you well in that case thank you very much in that case we'll break now we'll resume at two o'clock please and uh please don't talk to anyone about your evidence over the break thank you thank you very much

03:01:59 thank you two o'clock please