Claire Williams and Peter Maddison from KCTMO give evidence about their roles in the Grenfell refurbishment project, communication with residents, and governance of fire safety at the TMO.
00:00:22 would you ask ms williams to come back in please
00:00:36 all right mrs williams well we'll see if there are any more questions for you mr millet mr chairman thank you miss williams there are one or two further questions
00:00:46 questions and do you remember that you were a member
00:00:49 member of the grenfell communications subgroup together with peter madison pete griffiths kieran singh and janet edwards i remember there was a group which i
00:01:00 i remember there was a group which i don't think had many meetings yes and you were a member of it weren't you i i
00:01:05 you i i was a participant yes can we just look at a document tmo one double zero two eight four five two
00:01:17 and can we start with page one of that document
00:01:22 uh this is a monthly pi report dated may 2014
00:01:27 2014 i don't need anything on that page to show you other than the date but if we turn
00:01:31 turn please to page two uh here is a title grenfell tower major
00:01:43 uh here is a title grenfell tower major works
00:01:44 works and just at the bottom of the screen it says proposed communications subgroup and if we could scroll up a little
00:01:51 little it says there are several organizations involved in the refurbishment of grenfell tower including ryden's etc so it's essential the communication between all organizations is clearly
00:02:02 between all organizations is clearly untimely
00:02:04 untimely and then if you look at communications subgroup objectives the key objectives of the communications subgroup are as follows one to oversee the grandfather refurbishment communications and if we could go to page
00:02:16 could go to page three to monitor progress and ensure key milestones are communicated effectively three to review communication material for to identify any issues that may require neighborhood management or resident
00:02:27 resident engagement input five to contribute to highlight reports for the program board and then underneath that it says communication subgroup participation the project group will consist of the following and then you can see the
00:02:38 following and then you can see the members
00:02:39 members mr madison use griffith um kiran singh and janet edwards see that yes so you were a member of that group in and from may 2014 is that right is
00:02:51 in and from may 2014 is that right is that the date of this document yes i showed you that yeah thank you sorry yes now um if you uh look a little bit lower down uh the page
00:03:04 look a little bit lower down uh the page under project management we can see that you're identified as the lead project manager for the works and then underneath that it says communications
00:03:15 communications pete griffiths will take on the lead communication role within the communications subgroup for the tmo pete has already established contact with his counterpart at ryden's and will act as the key contact for all
00:03:26 and will act as the key contact for all internal and external communications whether planned or responsive in relation to the project uh was this communications
00:03:37 uh was this communications sorry i should go on actually go down to please to page um page four we could uh and you can see on page four
00:03:50 at the top in addition there are some areas
00:03:53 areas of potential risk in the management of key stakeholders residing in grenfell tower
00:03:58 tower the grenfell action group blog will be monitored by the communications lead to highlight any particular areas of concern
00:04:05 concern in project meetings you see that yes was the communications lead for that purpose pete griffiths he was communications lead yes was he
00:04:16 he was communications lead yes was he the person within this subgroup who monitored communications by key stakeholders
00:04:26 um
00:04:32 i'm not 100 sure whether he monitored the blog i don't know which other key
00:04:40 other key state actually did he did deal with ryden's
00:04:44 ryden's so if it was ryden's or the blog i would say yes right i mean to your knowledge and recollection did uh pete griffiths as the communications lead
00:04:57 as the communications lead monitor the grenfell action group blog um he was in a different building from me
00:05:03 me um but i think he was always aware if there'd been something that needed to be brought to my attention well did you have regular grenfell communications subgroup meetings
00:05:14 meetings um
00:05:18 i i think we maybe had one or two and then it changed to um trying to think how it was called the
00:05:30 um trying to think how it was called the grenfell project group i think it became right well let's look a little bit lower down page four communication subgroup meeting agendas the communications subgroup will aim to meet monthly
00:05:41 meet monthly during the duration of the project did it
00:05:44 it um i think the communication subgroup i i think things changed slightly from this being written
00:05:55 changed slightly from this being written so i did meet with pete griffith and or his team because they
00:06:02 they reviewed the newsletters and we would talk about anything then but so i would say it was more or less monthly because they looked at all
00:06:13 less monthly because they looked at all the newsletters looking at the proposed agenda for all meetings you can see that item three item two was resident engagement and item three was communications were those standing
00:06:25 communications were those standing agenda items um as i say it became the broad the grenfell project group and these issues were discussed but i don't
00:06:38 these issues were discussed but i don't think they were standing agenda items was what gag was saying in their blog communicated to the meeting of the subgroup regularly
00:06:50 to the meeting of the subgroup regularly by pete griffiths um pete griffis
00:06:56 did not attend to my recollection that the grenfell project
00:07:03 project all of the grenfell project group meetings
00:07:07 meetings um he may have attended some but he didn't attend them all so i i don't think that a comment on the blog was
00:07:16 blog was um made to me every month it was clearly supposed to though wasn't it looking at this document as i say i think when the project was up
00:07:27 as i say i think when the project was up and running it took a slightly different direction in that
00:07:32 in that the grenfell project group had neighborhood management had resident engagement but i'd say i don't know that pete griffiths always attended but i did
00:07:45 pete griffiths always attended but i did meet
00:07:45 meet him on a regular basis because we did look at the newsletter and we would talk about any other issues was there anybody else in this sub group who would feed back what was on
00:07:57 group who would feed back what was on the gag blog to the other members of the group at monthly meetings
00:08:05 um i don't think so no we didn't look at it every month i have to say i wasn't aware of people commenting on it every month it wasn't um if there was something pertinent then
00:08:16 um if there was something pertinent then i say pete griffith or say oh peter madison would have brought it to my attention but it wasn't something we i was aware that
00:08:23 that um of any information on it every month it
00:08:27 it i know you didn't as you've told us going back up the page then to the first main paragraph their second sentence where it says the grenfell action group blog will be monitored by the communications lead to highlight any particular areas of concerning project
00:08:39 particular areas of concerning project meetings did that in fact happen
00:08:44 i believe pete griffiths would have monitored it
00:08:48 but as i say he didn't attend all of the project group meetings right now can i ask you please to go to another document
00:08:57 rbk50860
00:09:07 this is a document dated august 2013 and therefore uh it was created a month or in the month before you arrived at the tmo
00:09:17 the tmo yes yes it is called the grenfell tower regeneration communication plan draft version one and its author is somebody called thea mcnaught
00:09:28 mcnaught reynolds at the tmo project manager claire williams previously sasha kuldesan paul duncan this is version one and if you scroll down in that please to
00:09:40 and if you scroll down in that please to page four you can see that there's a swot analysis under item 1.5 on that page swat standing for strengths weaknesses opportunities and threats
00:09:52 opportunities and threats um did you ever see this document when you arrived at the tmo i think it was in a directory so yes yeah i think there was there was
00:10:03 so yes yeah i think there was there was something
00:10:04 something can we take it that you read it or became familiar at least familiar with it when you arrived um i think i met fear so i think there may have been another version of this i don't know
00:10:16 version of this i don't know i see that was version one you think there was a later version i think there might have been a lot of versions and what was thea's role um i think she had a role
00:10:27 i think she had a role which was then taken over by pete griffith so i think i i to me she she she was a communications person but i don't know if she was um a stand-alone role or whether she was
00:10:38 um a stand-alone role or whether she was part of her okay now you can see the um you can see the the the swot analysis um which identifies some weaknesses ongoing delays delays and implementation to date
00:10:50 delays and implementation to date residents have very little confidence disenfranchised just pausing there did you pick up that fact when you arrived at the tmo that the residents had little confidence in the project and felt disenfranchised
00:11:03 in the project and felt disenfranchised or were disenfranchised um i don't know if it was about the project or whether it was the um the the project that that maybe had brought out so i don't know if this
00:11:14 brought out so i don't know if this relates to the grenfell refurbishment or general and it does i showed you the first would you like to go back to page one go back to page one we'll just see what it does relate to
00:11:26 it does relate to uh it's called the grenfell tower regeneration communication plan and the project name grenfell tower regeneration communication plan so it relates to the tower yeah but i'm saying that i don't know if the
00:11:39 i'm saying that i don't know if the sentiment
00:11:39 sentiment there is in relation to wider issues even though i understand you're saying this has got grandfather regeneration on the top of it
00:11:47 it but it could be you know the background that you were coming into was one of um whatever it said franchise we can go back to page four so i understand what you're saying
00:11:58 i understand what you're saying um last two bullet points uh limited consultation question mark largely reactive resident communication ad hoc approach to consultation
00:12:11 ad hoc approach to consultation did you note that as a feature of the project when you came into it um no i didn't but i don't know if this is
00:12:23 but i don't know if this is fear
00:12:26 her starting point and wanting comment from
00:12:34 my department to respond because this could have been picked up
00:12:41 picked up from general communication she's perhaps putting this forward as a an agenda for us to work on and come up with responses or
00:12:52 and come up with responses or um something of that sort but it could have been something that she put together
00:12:57 together rather than something that my department had input to right when you arrived at the tmo and started working on the project were you ever told the tma had identified the weaknesses we see in this
00:13:08 identified the weaknesses we see in this box
00:13:10 box um i i think i had seen this so at the back of my mind i see i was aware okay page six then please same question and on page six you see the situation analysis
00:13:22 see the situation analysis and in the third paragraph from the end it says residents have uh concerns about the perceived delay are unhappy about the ongoing noise of back-to-back
00:13:33 about the ongoing noise of back-to-back construction projects on the site in general a lack of trust and
00:13:39 and a perception by residents that tmo doesn't respect them are clear barriers to the project were you aware of that presumably you were if you read i i think i'd read this yes
00:13:51 and then
00:13:55 at the very bottom you can see it says resident consultation on certain aspects of design etc but not overall again were
00:14:06 design etc but not overall again were you aware of that you must have been i suppose if you read this document when you came into the project would that be right um as you say i'd seen this document so yes i would be aware that that was what it said now being
00:14:18 that that was what it said now being familiar with this document can you tell us was there any attempt by the tmo during your time either by you or anybody else involved in the project to acknowledge these weaknesses and these uh concerns
00:14:31 and these uh concerns to the residents um
00:14:36 i i take this to show that we're on the back foot when i joined the organization and it was my job to see
00:14:47 organization and it was my job to see if i could turn around some of these issues
00:14:55 so i think we were very clear that the residents as it said back to back construction because the cap project started in 2012 so they'd had incredibly noisy building site next door
00:15:07 incredibly noisy building site next door to them
00:15:08 to them and it was a project which meant we went into people's homes so it was going to be
00:15:13 be a very difficult project um in terms of um you know working around the residents and their
00:15:20 and their day-to-day routines and you say it was your job to see if you could turn around some of these issues do the issues that i've identified
00:15:31 i've identified figure as those which you were employed to turn around um yes i think we we we've heard obviously about the information in
00:15:44 obviously about the information in mr dufan's blog um the perception that the residents doesn't respect them is to me
00:15:52 me probably taken from there um so yes many of these items i was there to see
00:16:00 to see if i could improve it and also as it said
00:16:03 said there'd been paul duncan then there'd been a temporary worker and then myself so i was the permanent person to take this forward yes and my question again was there any attempt either by you or anybody else at
00:16:15 attempt either by you or anybody else at the tmo
00:16:15 the tmo to acknowledge expressly to acknowledge to the residents that you had understood and taken on board these weaknesses and their concerns um
00:16:28 these weaknesses and their concerns um yes i think in early days um we did talk to residents i talked to us and certainly about the fact that we were mindful that they'd already gone through um
00:16:41 that they'd already gone through um the period of the calc and calc i think three or four story building quite a large building and the leisure and we acknowledged that in many ways
00:16:52 and we acknowledged that in many ways you know the works we were doing were all about um improving the whole area
00:16:58 area and saying look you know you've been through all this you've seen this now we want to work on your building and you'll be you'll bring your building up to a standard so that you know
00:17:10 up to a standard so that you know it's um you know making the whole area um better and your home's better so i think it perhaps
00:17:21 put in different ways in different meetings but i think there was an acknowledgement that you know that we weren't starting on a a scheme from scratch we were going on
00:17:33 a scheme from scratch we were going on the back of the kelp project and it was going to be difficult for people and i think when you work in people's homes it's never an easy ask
00:17:42 easy ask ms williams thank you um i've come to the end of our extra questions it remains for me to ask one further question
00:17:48 question which i've asked you before but i'll ask it again in the context of the matters that we've been discussing together you and i over the last day and a half and that is looking back on all the topics that we've covered at length
00:18:00 topics that we've covered at length over the last day and a half or so looking back on that is there anything now
00:18:06 now that you would have done differently
00:18:12 um in relation to works in the residence homes i would have done more research in terms of the hiu position
00:18:24 position because i think as you appreciate i'd taken it on from other people and i perhaps made some assumptions about the research that had been done previously i think i would have been a bit smarter
00:18:35 bit smarter second time around and actually doing more research myself to understand um the locations of um you know how people's homes works
00:18:47 of um you know how people's homes works to
00:18:48 to see if we could do something that worked better
00:18:51 better in some of the flats so i i that would be the area that i think i would possibly revisit if i was given a second chance
00:19:03 ms williams thank you very much for your evidence it only remains for me to express our gratitude to you for coming back again and answering my questions
00:19:12 questions so thank you very much thank you chairman yes this really is well it's right that i should thank you on behalf of the members of the panel for your
00:19:20 your coming here again the second time round it can't have been very easy we understand that but we are very grateful to you for doing so and it's been very useful to hear what you have to tell us thank you very much indeed and now you
00:19:31 thank you very much indeed and now you can go thank you very much thank you
00:19:46 well we've got another witness waiting to come on is that right mister yes mr chairman it is we have peter madison waiting to attend but we need to have a short break so that the witness box can be prepared for
00:19:57 for yes yes i don't know how long is required perhaps um 10 or 15 minutes or so i'm not entirely sure i would hope not that long very good we'll we'll
00:20:07 we'll um rise for as long as it takes to uh prepare the witness box but i would think five minutes or two plenty anyway we we can be told very good it is
00:20:18 ready
00:27:29 [Music] yes mr lit ah we're ready to go i think yes
00:27:34 yes mr chairman thank you i now call mr peter madison please good thank you
00:27:52 good afternoon mr madison um i'm afraid i have to ask you to make an affirmation again because we've released you last time so
00:27:59 time so could you uh read the words on the screen please i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence that i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much do sit down make
00:28:10 thank you very much do sit down make yourself comfortable all right thank you very good
00:28:21 all right thank you very good yes mr miller chairman thank you mr madison good afternoon good afternoon thank you very much uh once again for coming back to the inquiry to give evidence
00:28:29 evidence a second time we're going to be examining the governance of fire safety by the tmo and your role in that
00:28:37 in that and the role that you had in dealing with complaints about fire safety in particular now briefly to touch back on your background just to remind everybody
00:28:48 background just to remind everybody uh you told us in module one at the end of last year that you started in your role
00:28:53 role at the tmo on the 21st of january 2013. that's correct isn't it yes and the you were director of assets and regeneration that's right and i'm going to ask you then about fire
00:29:04 and i'm going to ask you then about fire safety training for housing management generally
00:29:08 generally were you familiar with any of the specific guidance that was published in respect of fire safety matters in high-rise residential buildings not specifically now so can i take it that you were not
00:29:19 that you were not familiar with the local government association's guidance on fire safety and purpose-built flats published in 2011. that's correct nor the government's guidance that preceded
00:29:30 the government's guidance that preceded it called
00:29:31 it called fire safety sleep risk sleeping accommodation published in 2006. that's correct or pas 79 no no what about the laycore's guidance on
00:29:43 no what about the laycore's guidance on housing fire safety guidance on fire safety provisions for certain types of existing housing july 2008 no not familiar with that either did if you had no training did you otherwise
00:29:55 if you had no training did you otherwise become aware of these documents or is is this the first time that you've heard of them i mean i had at the tmo i had some general overview training on health and
00:30:06 general overview training on health and safety
00:30:07 safety um which was most of the senior management team were involved in but i wasn't familiar with specific because my role was a commissioning role it was a non-technical role
00:30:18 non-technical role right my role was more about commissioning services and provide and commission professional advice that would
00:30:23 would provide information in relation to those things but i take it that the general overview training on health and safety did not cover the specific documents or principles in the documents that i've referred to no
00:30:34 referred to no can i take you then back to day 57
00:30:38 at page 42 please this is your evidence in
00:30:42 in module 1 and on page 42 line 9
00:30:49 you um are asked the uh the question did general health and safety training that you're referring to there and that's in your statement include training on fire safety matters
00:31:00 include training on fire safety matters and you say in overview yes i take it that that overview did not include the three or four documents that i've referred to
00:31:11 or four documents that i've referred to um
00:31:11 um did you ever get given any guidance about how
00:31:15 about how the tmo should discharge its legal obligations as a responsible person for any building within its stock under the rro the regulatory reform order and the regulatory form order was one of
00:31:26 and the regulatory form order was one of the um
00:31:28 the um one of the pieces of legislation that was referred to in the overall train overall training but it was a specific training on the regulatory reform order right so what guidance did the tmo or
00:31:39 right so what guidance did the tmo or did you get about how the tmo should discharge its legal obligations under that enactment um well that the responsibility around that fed into the that responsibility was
00:31:50 fed into the that responsibility was within the health and safety team within the tmo who had the role of uh policy and advice on those issues yeah did you get any training though not
00:32:01 yeah did you get any training though not specific training no but uh i was but would be given advice uh on an
00:32:06 uh on an ongoing basis and there was a structure of communication uh relating to specific issues within the tmo
00:32:13 the tmo did you get any training on how to discharge the legal obligations that the tmo had under the housing act um that was one of the things that was covered in the overall training yes it was uh now
00:32:26 it was uh now you told us in module one that your role as director of assets and regeneration within the tma uh meant that you reported to sasha jevons who was director of operations and she in turn reported to the ceo
00:32:37 and she in turn reported to the ceo robert black that's correct that's the that's the hierarchy yes and i think it's right that you had three people reporting directly to you didn't you alex bosman who's contracts contracts manager that's right david
00:32:48 contracts manager that's right david gibson head of capital investment and also head of strategic investment which is i think a position that was not permanently filled is that right yes that's correct uh now looking at your first witness
00:33:01 uh now looking at your first witness statement if we can please
00:33:04 tm050892 page one i just want to go to paragraph five you say my role included overall responsibility for the strategic planning development and delivery
00:33:16 planning development and delivery of the tmo's capital investment planned maintenance and asset management to meet existing and future needs it included provision of strategic and operational leadership on all aspects of the development and delivery of an asset management
00:33:28 and delivery of an asset management strategy including a five-year capital investment program and cyclical programmes to meet tmo and council corporate objectives does that mean that you were responsible
00:33:40 does that mean that you were responsible for
00:33:42 for investment in fire safety measures in the tmos housing stock uh some in some measures so um some of the work that will be identified in in the capital programme would be we would
00:33:54 the capital programme would be we would have
00:33:55 have fire safety implications uh some of the work that were carried out in grenfell tower obviously but also the capital investment team were responsible for uh servicing
00:34:08 were responsible for uh servicing programs of uh items including some of the which were viruses
00:34:12 viruses fire related right uh you said the capital investment team that's contract sort of the contracts management team thank you yeah the contracts management
00:34:23 thank you yeah the contracts management team were you also responsible for planned maintenance or fire safety measures across the housing stock so the the contracts management team were responsible for that we were a non-technical client
00:34:34 non-technical client so we commissioned contractors and consultants um to procure and manage those contracts right just unpacking that a little bit the contracts management team were responsible for that
00:34:45 responsible for that that's alex bosman he reported to you that's right that he in turn would have subcontractors perhaps externally yes so um yes
00:34:54 um yes yes um does that does this also mean that you were responsible for plan for management of fire safety measures
00:35:03 measures um some some fire safety measures within those contracts yes can you give us some examples um so for example there would be emergency lighting would be covered
00:35:14 emergency lighting would be covered under one of those contracts uh management of uh the aov systems and um other generally any mechanical and electrical aspects of uh fire safety would be
00:35:26 aspects of uh fire safety would be the repairs and maintenance of those and the plan maintenance of those aspects would be done through the contact management team what about responsive repairs to fire safety measures over and above
00:35:38 to fire safety measures over and above planned maintenance were you also responsible for that yes yes
00:35:43 yes yes i want to ask you a little bit about uh your fire safety background and and fras in particular um can you go on in this witness
00:35:54 um can you go on in this witness statement to page 21 please i'd like to show you paragraph 112 and you say there under government governance management i do not think i can reliably assist the
00:36:06 i do not think i can reliably assist the inquiry in this regard and will defer to others who can all i can say is that the tmo had a health and safety team that dealt with all matters of fire safety and it did so in conjunction with external advisors including lfb
00:36:18 external advisors including lfb my role did not involve management of fire safety and i have no qualifications expertise or experience that would qualify me to do that my only involvement with fire safety would be if my department was asked to respond to actions that had been
00:36:30 respond to actions that had been identified as a consequence of surveys and a risk assessment carried out by or on behalf of the health and safety manager
00:36:38 uh now uh is it right that your role was limited essentially to overseeing actions highlighted in fire risk assessments
00:36:49 fire risk assessments or surveys yes yeah can we look specifically at fire risk assessments and your role in relation relation to those um can we go please to paragraph 73 of
00:37:02 um can we go please to paragraph 73 of your state second statement which is tmo double zero eight four seven three three seven dot tmo double zero eight four seven three three seven
00:37:13 four seven three three seven at page sixteen
00:37:17 you say paragraph seventy three as follows
00:37:21 follows i have been asked about the role i played in closing out the actions arising from the fra program the actions set out in the fras were reviewed by janice ray and assigned by her to the relevant team within the tmo
00:37:32 within the tmo i would not be made aware of these actions as they would be sent directly to the relevant team within the assets and regeneration department i would then receive performance information relating to the completion of those actions which i would monitor
00:37:44 of those actions which i would monitor and then if you move over to the next page please page 17 you say
00:37:52 i've been asked what steps this is paragraph 78 i've been asked what steps i personally took to ensure that the fire risk assessments carried out met the tmo's statutory obligations however i was not responsible for health
00:38:04 however i was not responsible for health and safety within the tmo and it was not my responsibility to oversee the fire risk assessment program my teams were only responsible for those actions arising from the fire risk assessment program that were assigned to
00:38:15 assessment program that were assigned to them
00:38:16 them these actions were monitored by the health and safety team and then if we look at i'm sorry to keep doing this to you we go on to page 80 at the bottom of the page you say at the very foot of the page as
00:38:27 you say at the very foot of the page as noted above the and then over the page health and safety team were responsible for highlighting information arising from the fire risk assessment program to the relevant department it then became the responsibility of
00:38:38 it then became the responsibility of that team to close out the actions assigned to them the health and safety team would also monitor closeout my role will be to quantitatively oversee the closing out of the actions assigned to my teams in other words
00:38:49 in other words i would monitor the number of actions closed out and outstanding i've shown you quite a lot of that that statement
00:38:56 statement because i have a number of questions on what you say there globally first do you agree that the actions came from significant findings and action plans of
00:39:07 plans of one mr carl stokes the fire risk assessor for grenfell tower yes and indeed for other buildings in the tma stock yes
00:39:19 in the tma stock yes yes and your team had a responsibility do you agree to clear actions allocated to it
00:39:26 to it by health and safety yes
00:39:30 now you've referred to being responsible for quantitatively overseeing the actions assigned to your teams could you explain
00:39:37 explain what that entails what quantitatively overseeing the actions entailed so um so the actions will be assigned to primarily the contracts management team
00:39:48 management team um and they would be responsible for actioning them through the contracts that we had in place and reporting back to janus um i wasn't involved directly in that
00:40:00 um i wasn't involved directly in that in any of that process um i would have an overview of the number of actions that were being allocated and how effectively they were being closed down and really my involvement was primarily
00:40:11 and really my involvement was primarily when there were issues about actions not being closed down especially effectively quickly enough so to summarize it your job is this right was to count off the actions said to have been completed against a
00:40:24 said to have been completed against a numerical total no that's what that was janice ray's role she was monitoring the the actual performance he would produce a performance report on a monthly basis which would allow me to interrogate
00:40:35 to interrogate the performance in a bit more detail but could you just explain what you mean by to quantitatively oversee the closing out of the actions um what does that mean
00:40:44 mean so i would be would be to keep an eye and make sure it was happening right but the the granular detail of the actions being allocated and being closed out was managed by janice ray
00:40:56 out was managed by janice ray and my role was really to keep an eye on it as part of my overall performance of my team and the contractor we were managing and whether it was being closed out effectively so when you say
00:41:08 closed out effectively so when you say closed out effectively do you mean your job was to monitor whether they were that the tasks were being done well and or properly and completely um
00:41:20 well and or properly and completely um it was more of an overview really it was reported into the month the um the regular um health and safety committee meetings it was a standing item which was gave a report on
00:41:31 standing item which was gave a report on the number of actions that were allocated to teams and and that would allow me to have an overview of whether there were any issues that i needed to delve into more detail with with my team right i'm just trying to understand
00:41:43 team right i'm just trying to understand what you really mean by quantitative oversight um if you were responsible for quantitative oversight whose responsibility was it to ensure the qualitative oversight or qualitative practical
00:41:54 oversight or qualitative practical completion of the tasks allocated to your team
00:41:56 your team so within each of the contracts that we procured within my team in the contracts management team we had a
00:42:03 we had a um we procure specialist advice to ensure that the the brief met the legislation letters that sort of requirements and we would also procure a quantity
00:42:16 and we would also procure a quantity quality control role within that as well so they would for each contract there would also be a separate consultant quality control to ensure that contractors were doing the jobs effectively making sure that the certificates were being issued
00:42:28 certificates were being issued met com met with compliance and and also that the contractors had the correct level of expertise to do the job who would give the specialist advice that you've just referred to
00:42:39 that you've just referred to um there would be different uh consultants for each contract um i can't remember the names can you give us some examples of the kinds of advice the kinds of expertise that you would engage with somebody one one would
00:42:51 somebody one one would be looking at the gas safety contract one would be looking at the electrical servicing contract et cetera there will be different looking at each area because my my team's role was a was a
00:43:02 because my my team's role was a was a non-technical role we weren't um qualified in signing off those things we brought in consultants to help us do that so
00:43:14 to help us do that so from that i would get is this right that you wouldn't yourself uh perform a quality control role you would oversee the quality control
00:43:25 control role performed by others um i have no qualification to allow myself to look at the quality control of those specialist areas so really my my role was about the
00:43:36 so really my my role was about the strategy making sure that there was we had the areas covered getting professional the professional advice that was needed to ensure that there was that quality control in place but my role was really about looking at
00:43:47 but my role was really about looking at the overall performance janice ray's and her team were looking at the
00:43:52 at the we pull together the regular performance of the actions that were being closed down
00:43:56 down but the fire risk actions themselves are only a small part of the much bigger picture of uh of fire safety within the stock and that's really what those contracts were looking
00:44:07 really what those contracts were looking to cover
00:44:08 to cover what degree of oversight did you yourself have to make sure that the fra actions were carried out satisfactorily and completely um my i would i would monitor
00:44:19 um my i would i would monitor the rate at which they were being closed down and
00:44:22 down and and look at the detail if there were particular blockages so if i knew there was a specific issue or a specific issue emerged from that data i would talk to
00:44:33 talk to the contracts management team i see but i would have no technical ability to resolve those things myself but i would look to explore why things weren't being resolved as well i see
00:44:44 resolved as well i see so does it come to this that your oversight role was essentially to monitor and ensure that the rate at which fri fra actions were being closed out was
00:44:54 was sustained and where they weren't in particular instances you would investigate the reasons for that that's right i see how did you ensure that actions were
00:45:05 were completed uh in accordance with the requisite rate um there would be a monthly report on the the aging profile of the actions
00:45:16 the the aging profile of the actions and so that will be reviewed uh on a monthly meeting corporately with the health and safety committee and we'll come to some of those into course did you ever look at the fras themselves uh or the action plans the significant
00:45:29 uh or the action plans the significant action plans themselves very rarely um again i'm not qualified in
00:45:34 in fire safety so don't have a any professional insight into that but i did um look at some samples with janice ray and carl stokes along with my team
00:45:46 carl stokes along with my team when i felt that there were some ways in which we could speed up the performance by streamlining some of the processes so i think sometimes for example the actions were
00:45:57 actions were to go and investigate something whereas actually if the action was to go and do something we could close it down much quicker so it was about trying to change the culture a bit there really and that was part of the conversation so we did look at some
00:46:09 the conversation so we did look at some examples of that but my focus was very much on those actions and how we could move them along more quickly rather than looking at the overall quality of the document
00:46:21 overall quality of the document indeed and thank you for that we'll come to that topic in a bit more detail later on
00:46:25 on uh can we go first then before we do that to tmo's 2013 fire safety strategy this we will find tmo zero zero eight three zero five nine eight at page nine
00:46:46 and here we have
00:46:49 in this document i should perhaps show you page one to show you what the document actually is it is in fact the tmos fire safety strategy if we can just skip to page one there it is and if we
00:47:00 skip to page one there it is and if we go to page nine which is where the detail is i want to ask you about we can see uh paragraph 14.3 reviewing fras frequency and arrangements 14.3.1 comprehensive suitable and
00:47:11 14.3.1 comprehensive suitable and sufficient fras have now been completed for each block however these are living documents which cannot remain valid indefinitely and if we go down to two paragraphs
00:47:24 and if we go down to two paragraphs fourteen point three point three on page ten
00:47:28 sorry fourteen point one point three i'm sorry sorry my my my uh no top of page nine at the lfbs request the in advance of
00:47:39 at the lfbs request the in advance of starting the assessments the successful consultant was introduced to the lfb's fire safety team who approved the draft pro forma to be used and were further appraised of the following
00:47:48 following pro forma based on pas 79 fra guidance and methodology for carrying out fres published by british standards institute and the risk assessment guidance produced by the health and safety executive hse
00:47:59 safety executive hse and then the second or third bullet points in particular the significant findings and action plan which would be produced alongside the fra report would use a red stroke ambassador green color coding to assist with prioritizing the actions
00:48:10 with prioritizing the actions specifically colour coding red actions required to comply with specific legal requirements in the fso plus any significant life risk that is found amber actions relating to recommendations of bs good practice etc
00:48:23 recommendations of bs good practice etc green actions which could improve or enhance fire safety based on good practice etc but of lesser priority and then the next bullet point says actions would be progressed in order of risk with priority being given to those
00:48:35 risk with priority being given to those with a red or amber rating however it must be recognized that where works are dependent upon significant resources such as capital funding this is likely to lead to some delay whilst funds are secured and any necessary procurement is undertaken in compliance with
00:48:47 undertaken in compliance with our financial regulations now number of questions about that first were you aware that carl stokes his color code the call stakes his reports themselves color coded
00:48:59 themselves color coded the actions in terms of priority yes you were did the information that you were given include color coding of actions by priority um the information that was reported at the
00:49:11 the information that was reported at the um health and safety committee i don't think did i think it was just aging by just by date right but more detailed reports breaking
00:49:23 right but more detailed reports breaking actions down by um by priority could also be produced they could when they came to you they didn't come color coded no right not that i remember right um did the information that came
00:49:34 right um did the information that came to you
00:49:35 to you uh get sorted by time scale yes i think it did so you had the dates and the longevity of the outstanding items
00:49:43 items but not not their priority ranking according to carl stokes that's that's from my memory that's uh that's right looking at this and this as i say is contained within the tmo's overall
00:49:55 contained within the tmo's overall um fire risk or fire safety strategy what was your understanding of each grading uh in relation to the action necessary to address address each risk in terms of time
00:50:07 address each risk in terms of time scales
00:50:07 scales expected to well how did you understand the gradings well that the most urgent were red right and the least urgent were green right did your as you've described it your
00:50:18 did your as you've described it your quantitative oversight now we understand what that means
00:50:23 means uh did you did your quantitative oversight of closing out fra actions involve ensuring that the prioritization given by carl stokes was respected um
00:50:36 could you raise the question yes when you were monitoring the closing out carrying into effect of actions that had arisen as a result
00:50:47 of actions that had arisen as a result of the fras
00:50:51 did your monitoring involve ensuring that the color coding the priorities that carl stakes has had accorded to the actions
00:51:01 actions uh get respected it would certainly be something that when i looked into the detail with my team that would be something that i would take into consideration right how was that done if you weren't
00:51:13 right how was that done if you weren't given the color codes all the priorities themselves how would you do that from memory it would be to request a particular report to drill down with the detail of
00:51:21 detail of the actions that were at a certain age band
00:51:24 band and then to ask for a breakdown of those those actions by the priorities so would this be right though that without the color coding you wouldn't know whether or not a
00:51:36 you wouldn't know whether or not a particular um a particular action uh that you were concerned with was in fact a priority that had not been respected or was not from the reports that i saw
00:51:49 or was not from the reports that i saw on a month on a regular basis but there was an ability to dive deeper into the data right in general terms can i can we take it that you were conscious of that the fact of an action arising out
00:52:00 that the fact of an action arising out of an fra in itself could mean increased fire risk to a resident yes all residents yes and that might mean that the tma would be in breach of its
00:52:11 that the tma would be in breach of its regulatory responsibilities its statutory responsibilities indeed under the rro yes and those things were prioritized according to yes yes but getting it wrong
00:52:23 yes but getting it wrong but it would potentially expose the tmo to criminal prosecution under that enactment
00:52:28 enactment in certain circumstances yes yes and you were aware of that yeah yeah now i asked you about your responsibility for actions assigned to the assets and regeneration department i i i i assume but correct me if i'm
00:52:40 i i i i assume but correct me if i'm wrong that include that that included responsive repairs as well no well didn't it so there was um my responsibilities were for plan maintenance and responsive repairs of the m e
00:52:51 the m e contracts only mechanical electrical contracts only so that would be the um yeah so that would be the gas electric etc but the standard the
00:53:05 etc but the standard the general responsive repairs for the buildings and general responsibilities were carried out by repairs direct who were at a separate entity and i had no direct management responsibility there
00:53:16 direct management responsibility there outside the responsive repairs of the m e to the u under the m e contracts mechanical and electrical contracts beyond those who was it who carried out
00:53:27 beyond those who was it who carried out responsive repairs highlighted by the fras
00:53:31 fras that would be repairs direct repairs direct and who was responsible for ensuring that those kinds of repairs were carried out in accordance with the color-coded priorities and time scales accorded them by carl stokes and his
00:53:42 accorded them by carl stokes and his fras i presume that was the managing director of repairs direct did the managing director of repairs direct get given carl stokes his fire say uh
00:53:50 say uh far risk assessments i wouldn't know i mean i the so janice ray as the head of health and safety would allocate actions from all of the fire risk assessments and they were
00:54:01 assessments and they were allocated to the individual teams responsible so i wouldn't have any sight of any actions that were being allocated to repairs direct other than the ones that i maybe would see in the overall
00:54:12 maybe would see in the overall performance statistics that were provided to the health and safety committee
00:54:17 committee i think i follow does this mean that you weren't allocated
00:54:23 fra actions that required responsive repairs
00:54:28 repairs outside or beyond mechanical and engineering and electrical uh that's correct the only other area really in my in my area would be if there were to be an action carried out as part of a
00:54:40 an action carried out as part of a capital
00:54:40 capital project which is a bit that wasn't very common right um because they're
00:54:47 they're longer leading contracts and so it might be there that if the action was to do something when that building is next scaffolded then that action could sit with that team if that was appropriate i see let
00:54:58 team if that was appropriate i see let me see if i can get at this by way of an example
00:55:01 example supposing a repair was requested to a self-closer on a flat entrance door in a residential block not as a result of an fra
00:55:12 block not as a result of an fra well let's start as a result of an fra let's start with that who would be responsible for making sure that that repair was carried out properly that would be with repairs
00:55:24 properly that would be with repairs direct i see that would that cross your desk
00:55:27 desk no that wouldn't cross your desk right let's try and change the example supposing
00:55:32 supposing a a a repair was requested to a self-closer on a flat front door in a residential block not as a result of an fra but because the resident reported a problem with it
00:55:45 the resident reported a problem with it who would be responsible for making sure that the repair carried out did not reduce the performance of the self-closure from a fire safety perspective so i don't know that i understand that but supposing a resident complained that
00:55:57 but supposing a resident complained that the fire
00:55:58 the fire that the self-closer on the door wasn't working
00:56:03 working supposing a resident complained who would be responsible for making sure that the repair that was carried out uh ensured that the self-closer performed from a fire safety perspective
00:56:15 performed from a fire safety perspective so the responsibility for so the resident would report that to the call center the job would be allocated to repairs direct and repairs direct would have to be responsible for carrying out
00:56:27 have to be responsible for carrying out the repair and for any quality control that was required within that yeah and who within the tmo would be responsible for os overseeing whether repairs direct did that job properly
00:56:38 that job properly um i think that managing director of repairs direct reported to executive team right and so would be it would be i think barbara matthews and
00:56:49 it would be i think barbara matthews and sasha jevens were jointly responsible i understood right i see did repairs direct report to you at all on anything no right i see
00:57:00 so do i take it from that that whether the
00:57:03 the need for repair arose as a result of an fra
00:57:07 fra or as a result of ah notification to use a neutral word from a resident that would wouldn't go through you would go to repairs direct and then
00:57:20 go to repairs direct and then up to the executive team yes i mean i think in
00:57:23 think in the the only time that we might that my team would get involved in something like
00:57:28 like um a door would be if we were replacing a program of door renewals or picking up doors as part of a planned maintenance program so that and so we did have an external redecorations
00:57:39 so we did have an external redecorations program
00:57:39 program for example and that might have been an issue that could have been picked up as part of that but um so but for a discrete responsive repair all of those issues would go to
00:57:51 would go to repairs direct and that didn't sit is this right didn't sit in your line of reporting either below or above no no the the the reporting for from the managing director was two
00:58:03 from the managing director was two executive team members right can i ask you to look at barbara matthews's second witness statement please tm00873380 and i'd like to show you page 11
00:58:14 and i'd like to show you page 11 paragraph 39.
00:58:19 she says there the health and safety team's role was to ensure that there was an fra program in place to identify necessary work to be undertaken to comply with health and safety legislation
00:58:30 safety legislation and regulations by those departments in the asset and regeneration department it did not have responsibility for carrying out those works do you agree with that description yes the health and safety team weren't
00:58:41 the health and safety team weren't responsible for carrying out the works they managed the fra
00:58:46 fra program they allocated actions from that program including elements of work and they monitored the closing down and the completion of those works right
00:58:57 those works right can we now look at her first statement please that's tmo100049987 page seven paragraph thirty three
00:59:15 tmo one double zero four nine nine eight seven
00:59:19 seven page seven paragraph thirty three uh and she says in the last sentence there
00:59:27 there if the actions were not being closed as quickly as they should have been i would chase the senior manager of that team and ensure that they closed the action down
00:59:34 down did miss matthews ever chase you about any unclosed fra actions um i would talk to barbara barbara chaired the health and safety
00:59:46 barbara chaired the health and safety committee so there was a regular conversation about fire risk assessment actions and barbara was very proactive in chasing um people um so she would probably specifically talk
00:59:58 so she would probably specifically talk to the head of contracts management for example
01:00:01 example and who would also be attending those meetings but specifically did did ms matthews ever chase you about any unclosed fra actions um i had conversations with barbara and we discussed the
01:00:12 we discussed the issues and challenges that were that we were experiencing those programs yes so is that a yes yes okay and when was that do you remember any specific i don't remember any specific did your role include holding meetings with repairs direct at all
01:00:23 repairs direct at all or they completely off your radar no i mean when i first joined the the tmo when repairs direct was first being set up
01:00:31 set up um notionally the the client role sat in my team
01:00:35 my team but that was only for a short period of time and it wasn't really if um that role moved to barbara and sasha now i want to look at uh the topic of
01:00:47 now i want to look at uh the topic of the action fra actions backlog uh and i'm going to look a little bit more closely with you at the fra processes and your involvement with it can we start by looking at an email
01:01:00 can we start by looking at an email chain in february 2013 just after you joined the tmo in the january of that year tm01.002270 please
01:01:21 this is an email from gary mitchell to you on 21st of february 2013 the subject fire safety at lancaster west and it's copied as you'll see to
01:01:32 west and it's copied as you'll see to janice ray sasha jevons and others
01:01:37 uh and it says we have rge coming in to see us on monday with the full two years maintenance stroke service reports and we will interrogate the information they provide and hopefully identify any
01:01:49 they provide and hopefully identify any gaps in service and address now um just to be clear um rge services is this right was the company contracted to the tmo for the maintenance of fire safety equipment at grenfell tower
01:02:01 safety equipment at grenfell tower yes yes and across the borough i'm sorry and across the borough and across the borough and you can see what he says in the first paragraph that i've read to you he then says this the problem that we
01:02:12 he then says this the problem that we have is that we've been given records that indicate rge are maintaining their planned program but don and i have questioned the validity of the information produced disposing there don is don
01:02:23 produced disposing there don is don roredzio isn't it yes what was his role uh he was one of the contracts management team responsible for
01:02:30 for i can't remember which area it was specifically right he goes on this is an ongoing challenge and because of historical behaviors from both sides we need to educate this inherited contractor and work with them to achieve
01:02:41 contractor and work with them to achieve the level of service we demand it's nothing that can't be turned around and at times due to sheer volume we don't realize failings until they are highlighted to us like the fras although once identified
01:02:54 like the fras although once identified rge are very responsive we will have this contractor in line very soon now do you remember this email particularly um can i just leave the email below from me yes
01:03:05 me yes bottom of page one over to page two uh and in fact there's a there's a long tail to this
01:03:14 yeah uh certainly look at look at yours to him
01:03:22 you know that's helpful yes i do remember the action you did um were you aware of any issues or difficulties with rge services as a contractor um they became clear through this process i mean this is very
01:03:34 process i mean this is very this is my first couple of weeks in in the role yes and um a couple of issues emerged um quite quickly i mean first off i'd asked the
01:03:44 the team that was in place the con the then contracts management team um that gary mitchell was part of for details of our levels of compliance on
01:03:54 on all of our statutory areas of servicing and that information was wasn't easily forthcoming right did you become aware through this process at this time that there had been
01:04:06 process at this time that there had been gaps in their servicing of fire safety equipment
01:04:09 equipment from the lancaster western state well that that emerged as part of this that that line of inquiry but also um through communities it was brought to my attention some
01:04:21 it was brought to my attention some actions on the grenfell tower fire risk assessment from 2012 picked up some actions from the previous year's fire risk assessment that hadn't been actioned so that highlighted that there
01:04:32 actioned so that highlighted that there was an issue and this was me raising these issues with the establishment later on when you arrived at the tmo on the 21st of january 2013 did you was
01:04:44 on the 21st of january 2013 did you was one of the first things you did to read carl stokes's november 2012 fra for grenfell tower um i think it would be slight overstatement
01:04:55 i think it would be slight overstatement sad read it but i i was aware of the issues that were emerging from it the actions that hadn't been actioned going back to this email
01:05:04 where the problem is identified particularly in the third paragraph did the gaps in rge servicing of the fire safety equipment at grenfell tower
01:05:15 safety equipment at grenfell tower include the aov system the smoke control system i can't recall the specifics uh what did you understand mr mitchell to mean
01:05:26 to mean by uh historical behaviors from both sides
01:05:30 sides i don't know did you ask him um i don't i don't recall right did do you recall that there were um difficulties with the relationship
01:05:41 difficulties with the relationship between the tmo and rge i think it was evident in my investigation into these matters what was the nature of those difficulties i think there was a lack of clarity on both sides about what was required
01:05:52 both sides about what was required and there was a lack of a system to hold data effectively and to monitor arrangements and to monitor and measure the contractor's performance
01:06:03 the contractor's performance right a lack of a system within the tmo to hold data effectively yeah a lot of there was a lot of data there was a lot of there were a lot of certificates but it was very difficult to
01:06:11 to be able to se there was it was very difficult to know whether all of those certificates were correct and whether they covered all of the assets that required certification
01:06:23 required certification and so what we this this was the beginning of a process where we started to reprocure all of these contracts and put in place a much more effective monitoring system
01:06:35 a much more effective monitoring system now when you got this email did you read down the chain at all to see what it sat above
01:06:44 i can't remember uh let's go down to page six
01:06:49 page six this is an email the foot of page six please
01:06:54 uh from francis o'connor to councillor blakeman
01:06:59 blakeman copied to among other people uh eddie dufan siobhan rumble and robert black
01:07:07 black and laura johnson and janice ray as well and and
01:07:10 and and he says dear judith we are grateful for your recent interventions on the verity case windows issue etc and if we turn to the next page page seven
01:07:25 you can see that he picks up uh the fire risk assessment from november 12 in the second paragraph there and he
01:07:37 in the second paragraph there and he quotes from it it quits from page 28 and in the second italicized part of that page he says and by way of quotation rge services are
01:07:50 and by way of quotation rge services are under contract to tma to provide portable firefighting equipment testing servicing and maintenance the fire extinguisher in this building the basement boiler room the lift motor room the ground floor electrical room plus other areas were out of test date according to the
01:08:02 were out of test date according to the contractor's label on the extinguishers the last test date was on 8th of august 2011. some located in the roof level areas had condemned written on them in large black writing with the last test date of 2009 or 2010
01:08:15 with the last test date of 2009 or 2010 this seems to indicate that monthly occupier inspections are not being carried out
01:08:22 so did you when you saw this email did you did you notice the fact that uh it was mr o'connor who would have raised this question yes you did
01:08:36 uh given that the fra was from november 2012
01:08:43 2012 does did this tell you that the action on servicing was still outstanding come february 2013.
01:08:50 2013. in other words it was some three months out of date yes it did were you concerned by that yes
01:08:58 do you know why there was this delay this ongoing question with servicing the equipment
01:09:08 and the reasons for the delay predate my arrival there but it was clear that there were some fundamental issues with the the contract and the way the contract was being managed
01:09:17 managed and the data that was being produced as a result of that right
01:09:24 now if we look back at the top of the email thread at the bottom of page one you've already seen this briefly now you can see that um in response to
01:09:35 now you can see that um in response to mr mitchell's first email to you of the 21st of february which comes to you i think on page two you respond to him and you say to him gary thanks very much for this it's good news that the fire
01:09:46 for this it's good news that the fire safety equipment on grenfell is now full tested equipment service to replace as necessary and the next service is scheduled for february 2014. have rge confirmed the date of the previous service strict inspection we need to understand why
01:09:57 inspection we need to understand why some of the works appear to be overdue then you say this on page two also the fire risk assessment refers to monthly occupier tests by caretakers to check that equipment is in place operable and
01:10:08 that equipment is in place operable and within its service period is this task part of the caretaker's roles and responsibilities that was your question uh and mr mitchell told you in the email at page one
01:10:19 one that he would he would ask about that as we've seen did you actually receive a response to your question um i don't remember right um did you chase up a response to your
01:10:30 did you chase up a response to your question
01:10:32 question um i don't know whether i got a response or not i did this distance there's a long time ago but um but i did i didn't leave it at this i followed up uh there was an extensive communication with myself
01:10:43 with myself gary mitchell and his boss ricky sams about
01:10:47 about the issues that arose from this right now
01:10:50 now do you remember that in fact in parallel this complaint was picked up by rbkc i don't remember that right let me show you some documents can we can we look tmo one triple zero two two two nine
01:11:09 and this is an email chain in later in february
01:11:13 february at about the same time in fact 2013 just a little later in february and if we look at page three
01:11:23 uh this is an email from moira mcgarvey on the 25th of february 2013 to robert black
01:11:28 black and by way of background i should tell you what was happening was that rbkc were carrying out an audit of tma's health and safety at this time and maureen mcgarvey's email says this hi robert
01:11:40 email says this hi robert i should read it to you a complaint has recently been brought to my attention by mr o'connor about fire and safety issues at grenfell tower i'm aware that there is a large amount of discussion out on the web currently the complaint centers around
01:11:51 currently the complaint centers around the response of a tmo officer to a recent article of the grenfell action group blog which raises concerns over the lack of appropriate action by tma management to address health and safety issues arising from a fire risk assessment for
01:12:03 arising from a fire risk assessment for grenfell tower undertaken in november 2012. some of the concerns raised about the lack of regular servicing and testing of the firefighting equipment and installations by the appointed contractor rge have
01:12:14 by the appointed contractor rge have also been identified coincidentally as part of the current audit we are undertaking on tmo health and safety as part of the audit my auditor accompanied the assistant safety advisor on fifth february 2013 to observe the
01:12:25 on fifth february 2013 to observe the annual health and safety inspection for darfield way shelf lease and wayne fleet square the outcome of this inspection was that issues were native where portable firefighting equipment has not had not been serviced within the
01:12:36 has not had not been serviced within the due date by the contractor rge the audit has also identified issues with the integrity of data held on the keystone asset management system relating to inspection records from rge and that audit could not place any
01:12:48 and that audit could not place any reliance on the keystone system records i'm writing this email to highlight this matter and to seek assurance from you that appropriate action is being taken to address the issues raised which have serious health and safety implications
01:13:00 serious health and safety implications on residents within estates managed by the tmo
01:13:03 the tmo there are also implications on the validity of our insurance cover arrangements in the event of any fire incident
01:13:08 incident since our policies clearly require all firefighting equipment and installations to be regularly serviced and inspected from our initial audit findings this is clearly not happening
01:13:17 happening i should be grateful if you can provide assurances that this matter is being escalated as a matter of urgency and from our initial audit findings this is clearly not happening i should be grateful if you can provide assurances
01:13:29 assurances and that she says if you would require any further information please let me know
01:13:33 know many thanks moira now do you remember seeing this email at the time um i don't recall but but i i recognize it's i recognize the message yes you recognize the message but you
01:13:45 yes you recognize the message but you don't recall seeing the email do you recall any discussion of the subject matter of this email at the time either with robert black or anybody else yes i mean again we're going back several years now but it's um at that time
01:13:59 but it's um at that time i mean i remember that the outcome of this being reflected in the limited assurance health and safety audit which was which fed into my um my understanding of the weaknesses in
01:14:10 my understanding of the weaknesses in this part of the uh the business at that time right i mean we can see that the email from maura mcgarvey only to robert black
01:14:17 black did robert black come to you or to your knowledge anybody else at the tmo with this concern and say we need to sort this out i can't remember specifically how it was communicated to me it clearly was but i
01:14:28 communicated to me it clearly was but i i couldn't say how there was a specific conversation right and in fact i think as you've just said the outcome of this audit was the limited assurance due in part to the issue set out in the email yes yes yes now looking at what i've
01:14:40 yes yes yes now looking at what i've just shown you we've had the complaint about uh the lack of regular servicing and testing of fire equipment at grenfell raised by two completely separate routes mr o'connor and the grenfell action
01:14:52 mr o'connor and the grenfell action group which is what you saw on the one hand and almost at the same time the rbkc audit what did that tell you about the tma's processes that you
01:15:03 about the tma's processes that you should face the same complaint both from within the building that you were managing tmo is managing and from the council who were scrutinizing you it was clear that the system wasn't
01:15:15 it was clear that the system wasn't working
01:15:21 and in general terms what what did you do about
01:15:25 do about that when you learned that there were there were these kinds of problems being picked up
01:15:30 picked up both by residents of the building and by rbkc i mean in the short term um i remember delving in delving into some of the detail trying to understand what was
01:15:40 what was what was happening in the relationship between the tmos contract team and the contractor and ultimately um i came to the conclusion that the
01:15:51 um i came to the conclusion that the people that we had in that team weren't the right people that we needed for the job
01:15:55 job so we brought in a new team effectively yeah
01:15:58 yeah um we re-procured we actually we went into an
01:16:02 into an adjudication process with rge and we had to bring in an interim contractor while well that process run through and but we went through a process of
01:16:13 and but we went through a process of doing a written branch review and reprocurement of all of the mechanical electrical services contracts and in tandem with that integrated it into
01:16:24 into a live performance reporting system in keystone so you could actually see the live
01:16:29 live performance and so over the periods of the next
01:16:32 the next that took some time to do but over the period of the next few years those from that limited assurance audit we've got substantial assurance audits on each of the
01:16:42 of the six areas of those servicing contracts and we may come back to that audit later in your evidence i asked you about whether mr black had any direct contact with you
01:16:52 with you we can see what happened to mourinho's email next if we look up the chain can we go to page two please in this email chain you can see that
01:17:09 i think the next thing that happens is that
01:17:12 that uh it's not entirely clear from this email on the bottom of page two there's an email from robert black to sasha jevons and janice ray copied to others
01:17:24 and it says sasha anthony robert has asked me to forward this on his behalf as we need to prepare a response to internal audit thanks jane that must have come from his
01:17:35 have come from his uh his pa is that yes is that right okay and then above that you can see sasha gevins forwards this to you 25th of february
01:17:46 forwards this to you 25th of february please could you have a look at this thanks and then if you go up you scroll up to page one you can see the second email on page one is the email the 27th of february 2013 to sasha
01:17:58 the 27th of february 2013 to sasha jevons
01:18:00 jevons where you say i've met with my team and janice on this attached our actions from the meeting then you go on and i'll read this to you ricky's team and rge are working on a gap analysis of our fire equipment
01:18:11 gap analysis of our fire equipment servicing arrangements by friday this week and we will know what we need to do to recover the position by then janus is pulling together a gap analysis schedule of fire risk assessment actions by friday and again
01:18:22 assessment actions by friday and again we'll be able to action them i've spoken to janice and insisted that we have an opportunity to check that everything is in order ahead of fire risk reports being issued to residents auditors being taken to site to inspect it's clear that there is a weakness in
01:18:33 it's clear that there is a weakness in our management arrangements however we must ensure that our systems and checks serve to escalate and resolve these matters within kctmo rather than flagging them up outside the organization i think we need to talk to anthony about
01:18:44 i think we need to talk to anthony about how we control this in future let's discuss
01:18:47 discuss peter and then to finish this off sas evans responds to you
01:18:54 you the same day thanking you and agree with comments about control you see that yes now
01:19:05 we can see that you've asked for some gap analyses one on fire equipment servicing arrangements and one on fire risk assessment actions yes yes yes and you were aware is this right
01:19:17 yes yes and you were aware is this right that from this pretty much the start of your time at the tmo there were issues with fire equipment at gt grenfell tower and actions arising from fire risk assessments yes so those were areas of sensitivity yes and you then
01:19:32 areas of sensitivity yes and you then insist on being able to check fire risk reports before they're sent out to residents
01:19:37 residents and before order to see them or are taken to sight why did you want to do that i don't think i said about auditors seeing them today
01:19:47 well in the last paragraph on page one you you say we wanted an opportunity to check that everything's in order ahead of fire risk reports being issued to residents or auditors being taken to
01:19:58 residents or auditors being taken to site to inspect that's why i asked my question so it seemed it seemed extraordinary to me at that time that i was learning about a serious flaw in our
01:20:09 learning about a serious flaw in our system
01:20:09 system without it having been reported to me i felt like something was wrong in the system
01:20:14 system and so my team should be able to understand what if there are issues so it seems it seems um so that was my concern the system didn't
01:20:26 so that was my concern the system didn't appear to be working because there should be an internal escalation process before we're communicating information outside the organization now you hadn't yet had the results of your two gap analyses so what was the weakness that you had already identified
01:20:38 weakness that you had already identified do you think um i can't remember at this distance to be honest
01:20:50 it was the weakness the fact that issues were being picked up outside the tma by people such as francis o'connor no no not at all i mean that that front
01:21:01 no no not at all i mean that that front the
01:21:01 the feedback from francis economy is incredibly useful to me because i could then
01:21:05 then recognize an issue and address it the issue was that the it was clear to me that the tmo didn't have control of its data and so it wasn't escalating wasn't
01:21:16 and so it wasn't escalating wasn't recording
01:21:17 recording and monitoring the effectiveness of the service that we ought to have been providing and escalating it accordingly if things aren't being done well let's just explore that in the last
01:21:28 well let's just explore that in the last paragraph on page one mr madison you say in the second sentence it is clear that there is a weakness in our management arrangements however we must ensure that our systems and checks serve to escalate and resolve
01:21:40 and checks serve to escalate and resolve these matters within the tma rather than flagging them up outside the organization was the weakness that you had perceived an absence of control of the data
01:21:52 that was that was a key part of it right secondly
01:21:55 secondly it was you know so in tandem with that there's there's a weakness on the contractual side and on the client side in that so both sides needed to be uh to be addressed
01:22:05 addressed and you wanted to deal with those internally within tmo rather than as you say flagging them up outside the organization well that that the way you phrase it there makes it sound as if i'm
01:22:16 there makes it sound as if i'm not prepared to be transparent about these things and that's not the case what i'm
01:22:20 what i'm what i wanted to what i wanted to ensure is if there was an issue of actions not being resolved that they were escalated appropriately to the right person or up through the hierarchy
01:22:32 hierarchy so we could address those weaknesses
01:22:36 yes and one of the what was one of the weaknesses the fact that other people were picking up problems that the tmo itself should have picked up
01:22:43 up yes yeah well the real problem i think is that
01:22:46 is that you were not picking up the fact that the work hadn't been done yes it is it wasn't the system wasn't working to flag up that there was an issue that needed to be addressed and it was taking and so
01:22:59 and it was taking and so mr mr o'connor's useful prompt that this hasn't been addressed highlighted that to my attention and that gave me something i could work on
01:23:09 um yes now mr chairman i'm there is an attachment to this document that i'd asked like to ask the witness about but it might
01:23:16 it might be better if we did that after the break although we started this witness only an hour ago well i think we i'm happy to break now or to carry on if this is a good point from your point of view then i think this is the time to do it well
01:23:27 i think this is the time to do it well it's again like all these things it's sort of maroon between between shores well never mind i'm sure you'll manage mr madison as you know from your previous experience we have a break during the afternoon and
01:23:39 we have a break during the afternoon and this is obviously as good a time as any to take it today so we will stop now until 20 to 4 and again as you remember from last time i'm going to ask you not to talk to anyone about
01:23:51 to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it during the breaks this one or any subject of course all right thank you would you like to go to the usher please
01:24:09 right 24 rupees
01:41:16 would you ask mr madison to come in
01:41:30 please all right mr madison ready to keep going yesterday thank you yes mr yes mr chairman thank you mr madison we were on the uh email uh uh
01:41:41 the uh email uh uh which you had sent uh on the 27th of february and there's an attachment to it can we please look at that tmo one triple zero two two two five and
01:42:00 one triple zero two two two five and it's a note it appears of a fire risk compliance meeting 27th february 2013 at which you are recorded as being present
01:42:09 present if we look down to item two fire risk assessments it says janus to produce a master list of fras by friday first march including compliance red amber green
01:42:22 including compliance red amber green actions and words required urgent desirable
01:42:26 desirable action janice john borra to coordinate an action plan to ensure that all essential works are delivered action john borrow and then underneath it this
01:42:36 it this in future all fra i'm sorry in future fra reports are not to be sent to residents without a check from assets and regeneration to ensure that all actions have been complete
01:42:48 complete was this the first time a master list of fras was produced by the tmo which included compliance color coding and actions and works required i don't know you don't know um
01:43:01 i don't know you don't know um do you know whether this master list of fras was collated as a result of the email from mauro mcgavey we'd seen earlier i don't recall i i'm i'm assuming that
01:43:13 i don't recall i i'm i'm assuming that uh janice ran the virus assessment system from a spreadsheet system and would
01:43:19 would run reports from that so i don't know was there any discussion at this meeting about why it was necessary for janus to produce a master list of fras by three days hence events
01:43:31 by three days hence events um it was clear i mean it appears to me that what what i was doing here was trying to establish where we were to understand where we were in terms of compliance and
01:43:43 where we were in terms of compliance and to do a gap analysis on where we were in relation to where we should be yes what i'm really trying to get at is is what the prompt for janus producing this master list of fras
01:43:55 janus producing this master list of fras urgently was
01:43:59 i would imagine that it's because we didn't know where we were so i was asking her for a current list of where we were compliant and what needed to be done yes and that not knowing where you were was that as a result of moyra mcgowan
01:44:10 was that as a result of moyra mcgowan moira mcgarvey's email i think it was to me it was partly that it was partly the response from of the issues that were emerged from the
01:44:22 of the issues that were emerged from the fra
01:44:23 fra at grenfell but also my inability to get a proper response when when asked for details of where we were in terms of our statutory compliance on our m e piece so
01:44:35 statutory compliance on our m e piece so there were three strands that highlighted to me that there was an issue here i see why did you need to see fra reports
01:44:43 reports before they went to residence for the same
01:44:47 same reason as i described earlier really that if there was something that needed to be escalated or communicated we should be checking that everything is in hand it should be a natural process that we
01:44:58 natural process that we check that everything's in hand that's not to say we shouldn't give people that but but you know i would want to know if there were some issues
01:45:05 issues that was being communicated to anybody internally or externally if there were some issues that need to be addressed in my team for example i'd expect it to be flagged up to me yes i don't understand let's just look again
01:45:16 i don't understand let's just look again at the foot of page one because it says there that fra reports are not to be sent to residents without a check from assets and regeneration to ensure that all actions have been complete does that mean that in fact the decision
01:45:27 does that mean that in fact the decision was that unless all actions all actions have been complete
01:45:32 complete the fra reports would not be sent to residents
01:45:35 residents i don't think that's what that's meant to be saying i have no idea who took these minutes but um i don't think that's the case it certainly reads that way it does read
01:45:47 it certainly reads that way it does read that way but i don't think that's the intention
01:45:48 intention right it's certainly the case isn't it that there was no standing decision that the fra reports would be sent to the relevant residents in the relevant buildings
01:45:59 buildings when they were produced regardless of whether the actions identified had or hadn't been completed i don't know what protocol was in place for communicating fire risk assessments to residents can we then move to the summer of 2013
01:46:12 can we then move to the summer of 2013 tmo one triple zero three one two four
01:46:23 this is a report produced by matt hodgson
01:46:29 hodgson in july 2013
01:46:33 for the tmo and it's called a safety management review do you remember seeing this document um looking at its first page i don't it doesn't immediately right
01:46:45 do you remember being interviewed as part of a safety management review at this time i remember talking to matt hodgson and matt hodgson is the consultant who did the health and safety
01:46:56 consultant who did the health and safety training that i was talking about earlier right can we go to page five
01:47:05 and you can see that under 1.2 scope of report
01:47:09 report uh in the middle of the page that a number of individuals were quotes interviewed on quotes as part of the audit top of the list there is janice ray and about halfway down the list you can
01:47:20 and about halfway down the list you can see your name you see that yes uh did you read this report when it came out
01:47:27 came out as i said i don't recall it but um i may well have seen it were you made aware of its recommendations i don't recall can we look at page eight please
01:47:40 this is within the executive summary
01:47:46 and the last paragraph on that page says this the government the governance of hns requires a serious review as the responsibility for different risk areas
01:47:55 areas sit within different departments and not because the decision was made at committee but more through default due to the shortfall in compliance data set up sent up to the executive committee there is a lack of focus and leadership
01:48:07 there is a lack of focus and leadership in making the important changes or decisions to manage risk effectively this issue is not helped by a breakdown in communication between the h s and other departments specifically in relation
01:48:18 relation to the completion of actions as raised in statutory reports the business needs to decide who has the authority
01:48:25 authority to enforce this process h s roles and responsibilities in job descriptions and in the h s policy do not match expectation of some directors involved in compliance management
01:48:36 management uh did you read that paragraph do you think
01:48:40 think i don't recall did anybody bring the gist
01:48:44 gist of the findings in this paragraph to your attention at or after this time i don't remember right
01:48:51 right did something that you would remember is this right if that somebody had told you what i've just read to you i just have no recollection of this report on this specifically now we can see that there are a number
01:49:03 now we can see that there are a number of
01:49:04 of issues or concerns raised here um is it is it correct to the best of your recollection that responsibility for different risk areas sat within different
01:49:15 risk areas sat within different departments um yes
01:49:20 um yes but this the structure that i described earlier was was in place and which is that the health and safety team were responsible for
01:49:29 for this the strategy and policy and in amphi risk assessments and communicated to different departments
01:49:40 departments the actions from those to be completed and monitor them that was the and i think it's the dynamics between those various parties that is probably being referred to here well we can see what's being referred to my my question really is
01:49:52 my my question really is asking you factually whether these findings are correct i'm just putting this to you uh he's identified a shortfall in compliance data being sent to the executive committee would you agree with that
01:50:01 that i don't know you don't know i was i wasn't part of the executive committee so i don't know do you know what kind of compliance data the executive committee lacked
01:50:12 the executive committee lacked i wasn't part of the executive committee i wouldn't have had sight of any information that was do you remember whether
01:50:19 whether there was a breakdown in communication between health and safety and other departments specifically in relation to the completion of actions from statutory reports
01:50:26 reports i wouldn't say there was a breakdown but i think there was room for improvement on how
01:50:30 on how and on how actions were communicated and do you remember there being a problem at the time about a break about communication between health and safety and other departments about the
01:50:41 and other departments about the completion of uh fra actions and they're not the precise words that i would use to describe but that's clearly what matt hodgson has used to describe yes well how would you describe it well for example it was it was clarity of what the action
01:50:53 it was it was clarity of what the action was required so um some of the fire risk actions would be unclear or would maybe um give an action to for one of one of the the contract
01:51:05 for one of one of the the contract management team to investigate an issue and come up with a solution well they weren't the experts they were looking for the fire risk assessor to tell them what action was required and then it could be a clear instruction
01:51:16 and then it could be a clear instruction to a contractor to complete the work and i felt that by streamlining that process would be a significant improvement rather than because i think that the contract management team was spending a lot of time trying to work
01:51:27 spending a lot of time trying to work out what the appropriate action was when in fact they didn't have the technical expertise to um to decide now he also goes on to say as i've read to you in the penultimate
01:51:38 as i've read to you in the penultimate sentence the business needs to decide who has the authority to enforce this process do you know whether
01:51:45 the business did actually make that decision
01:51:50 decision um certainly going forward from this point or or from when barbara matthews joined the organization very clear leadership on on health and safety and that i think clarified a lot of these issues
01:52:02 clarified a lot of these issues right can we go to page nine please we can see on page nine here that there are
01:52:09 are a series of recommendations in fact 39 in all
01:52:12 in all that we've managed to count can we please look at the second one which is uh take action to resolve the significant volume outstanding actions unresolved in statutory reports especially in relation to fire risk
01:52:24 especially in relation to fire risk assessments once the backlog has been brought under control establish a process to monitor and track completion of report actions as matched against priorities identified in the reports time scale three months to resolve backlog of actions
01:52:38 so we can see from that that mr hodgson had picked up a significant volume to use his words of outstanding actions yes yes
01:52:45 yes yes and we can also see that uh he he thought
01:52:48 thought that the resolution of that backlog was of the highest priority yes priority one he's given it yes and also that should it should be done within three months to your knowledge
01:52:59 within three months to your knowledge was action taken as recommended here that i've just read to you um i think that description is simplified this didn't recognize the
01:53:11 simplified this didn't recognize the scale of the issue that would need to be addressed here because there was a more fundamental issue that we needed to address which was the
01:53:20 was the um it was about procurement getting the right contractors who could actually deliver these works having the right team who could manage the information to ensure that things were done and
01:53:32 ensure that things were done and recorded effectively and that we had an effective data base and data source that was reliable and populated so um which is is a fundamental root and branch
01:53:44 is is a fundamental root and branch review of what the organization was doing
01:53:47 doing that was required and i felt that this i don't think that action realistically uh portrayed what needed to be done right was this recommendation brought to your attention at the time
01:53:58 your attention at the time i think it probably was but i mean as i say i don't remember this report being um
01:54:02 um discussed in great detail do you know who brought this attention just do you know who brought this report to your attention at the time as i say i don't remember this report specifically it was it it's it's but
01:54:13 specifically it was it it's it's but sitting here and now you're saying are you that
01:54:15 you that item two recommendation two was um unrealistically optimistic i didn't think it recognized the full complexity of what she didn't think it recognized that seems to indicate that at some point in
01:54:27 seems to indicate that at some point in the past
01:54:29 the past that was your view it was my view then it's my view now that that didn't reflect what needed to be done but if no one brought this to your attention at the time
01:54:40 the time what how could you have a view about it i'm reading it now and that's my interpretation of what right i think so nobody is it just to be clear about this
01:54:51 clear about this nobody actually came to you at the time and said peter we need to take action to resolve the significant volume outstanding actions etc uh as i say i can't remember this specific report at this distance i
01:55:03 this specific report at this distance i just can't remember it well let's see how we go with this can we go to the next page
01:55:06 next page i'm sorry to page 33 page 33 in this document which deals with fras themselves fire risk assessments as you see from the top of the page
01:55:17 the top of the page and it says in the middle paragraph keystone is not up to date with fra reports so it's not possible to assess how compliant the business is with regards current fra reports one issue that's known and can be
01:55:28 one issue that's known and can be measured is the volume of outstanding fra actions created in the reports held the fra report actions get pushed out to one of three locations assets and regeneration neighborhood and repairs
01:55:39 repairs and then the third i think isn't there maybe the third is repairs there are currently somewhere between 900 and 1000 outstanding fra actions janice ray has established a spreadsheet showing departmental progress and hosts
01:55:50 showing departmental progress and hosts meetings
01:55:51 meetings to discuss progress now we can see that mr hodgson identifies these three locations
01:55:57 locations assets and regeneration neighborhood and repairs as the third one i think are the the first and third assets and regeneration and repairs were in your within your directorate weren't they no repairs wasn't well to some extent they
01:56:09 repairs wasn't well to some extent they were the qualification about m e i think this is referring to department so i think as when that's referring to repairs i'm assuming that means repair is direct i see right in terms of enforcing compliance
01:56:20 right in terms of enforcing compliance with completion of actions at least in respect of assets and regeneration as one of the locations that would have fallen to you yes yes how did you monitor completion of fra actions within your
01:56:32 actions within your department so i think from from around this time this is when um information started to be produced from janus ray um giving a breakdown of
01:56:43 from janus ray um giving a breakdown of actions
01:56:44 actions and aging profiles and was the origin of that the master list we saw referred to in the 27th of february i couldn't honestly say janice were you asked to do anything to implement the recommendations made in the hodgson report even if in fact you
01:56:56 the hodgson report even if in fact you hadn't seen that seen it as a document at the time i don't remember it formally being issued in that way that this was a report that was adopted and delivered but the issues that are detailed in that
01:57:07 but the issues that are detailed in that report were clear and obvious from the the my initial review of what was happening
01:57:13 happening in the performance of the team and so that formed the action that i took from this point of forward can we go please to tm01303604
01:57:26 this is a minute of the meeting of the operational health and safety committee on the 12th of september 2013 and as you see from the list of those
01:57:38 and as you see from the list of those presents you are one of those present along with janice ray you see that and if you look at the introduction it says the purpose of the meeting is to review the current health and safety procedures and enhance current processes ensuring
01:57:49 and enhance current processes ensuring the correct members within the organization have the appropriate management strategies and the necessary resources in place to meet compliancy and then there's an agenda
01:57:59 agenda was that introduction um or rather the review referred to in the introduction a a in consequence of the hodgson report do you remember i don't remember can we look at page
01:58:12 i don't remember can we look at page three please bottom of page three and over to page four paragraph two point two this is under the heading agreeing agenda and 2.2 jw that's janice ray
01:58:23 agenda and 2.2 jw that's janice ray explained she felt much of the hns approach was reactive and responsive rather than proactive and was in line with budgetary implications and felt that there was no assurance
01:58:34 assurance that agreed actions were being met going forward i.e void standards fire stopping and and felt processes need to be put in place to confirm things are effectively progressed and concluded would you agree
01:58:47 and concluded would you agree with that i mean
01:58:53 i mean the issue the specific issues raised there are really repairs direct issues in terms of voids fire stopping but for the contracts that i were under my
01:59:05 for the contracts that i were under my division
01:59:06 division um there was i certainly felt that trying to fix this problem by responding to the actions of high risk assessments wasn't the right approach it needed a
01:59:17 wasn't the right approach it needed a much more fundamental root and branch review
01:59:19 review making sure that you had in place clear contracts clear contract management structures so that actions were the all all fire and um
01:59:32 the all all fire and um health and safety actions were being addressed as part of those contracts and reducing that would reduce the amount of work that was being generated through the reactive fire risk assessment yes and does that
01:59:43 fire risk assessment yes and does that does that tell us what you've just said tell us that janice ray's view was correct that much of the h s approach was reactive and responsive
01:59:54 and responsive rather than proactive not least because you didn't necessarily have a grip on the contracts in place to be proactive well i think that not just the grip on the contracts the contracts
02:00:03 contracts were in place i didn't think were appropriate so you agree with me i think yes
02:00:06 yes um budgetary implications was budget an issue
02:00:09 issue or a problem which was getting in the way of getting to grips with the fra actions
02:00:15 actions i don't believe it was right do you agree that there was a need for effective processes to ensure progression and conclusion yes did you agree with with or accept janice
02:00:25 janice ray's overall assessment that i've just read out to you yeah you did where are such processes put in place as a consequence of this meeting yes they were now let's then move
02:00:37 yes they were now let's then move forward and see how this evolves over time we next i think go to the minutes of the operational health and safety committee meeting on the 17th of january 2014. tmo double 0-840-384
02:00:58 tma-00840384
02:01:01 that's the first page of the minute you're present together with janice ray and
02:01:05 and others and if we go please to page uh one to two the bottom of page one last bullet point under matters of rising the fire brigade haven't come back with
02:01:16 the fire brigade haven't come back with dates for visiting they've said that they're interested in seeing the w-2 workflow process and looking particularly any outstanding fra actions which relate to compartmentation janus has been asked to talk to michael
02:01:27 janus has been asked to talk to michael about the information that they will be shown as they will be looking to make sure
02:01:31 sure that we are completing the actions which means that they will be looking at things in more details and michael i think was michael lyons who was also present is that right yes why was janice ray
02:01:43 is that right yes why was janice ray talking to talk to michael lyons specifically was it to control the information that was being shared with the lfb sorry i don't understand well if you go back to
02:01:57 don't understand well if you go back to the bottom of page one
02:02:03 it says janus has been asked to talk to michael about the information they will be shown that's the fire brigade i'm assuming as they will be looking to make sure we are completing the actions which means they will be looking at
02:02:14 which means they will be looking at things in more detail so my question is was janice ray to talk to michael lyons in order to control the information that was to be shared with the london fire
02:02:25 was to be shared with the london fire brigade i don't know you don't know what was your understanding at the time of this meeting
02:02:31 meeting about what that signified all meant sorry i've got no recollection of this meeting specifically was there a general concern on the part of the tmo that the lfb would be looking at things
02:02:42 at things in more detail i don't think so was there a concern at the time that the ta that the lfb might
02:02:53 the time that the ta that the lfb might when they did look at things in more detail
02:02:56 detail uh be alarmed at the volume of outstanding fra actions i'm not aware because i think i mean i didn't have any direct involvement in
02:03:09 i didn't have any direct involvement in the liaison between the tmo and the fire brigade i understood that janus communicated fire risk assessments to
02:03:18 to the fire brigade but um but i have no idea what sort of dialogue was going on between the two parties you see you're at this meeting and this is this is a minute of the meeting you're at and i'm asking you
02:03:30 you're at and i'm asking you was there from what you could see or hear
02:03:33 hear a concern on the part of the tma that the lfb once they looked into matters in more detail might be alarmed at the volume of then outstanding fra actions
02:03:45 outstanding fra actions i don't know i can't remember this meeting all right let's go on to page two
02:03:50 two uh in the first main paragraph on that page the note says at the moment we are working from fire risk assessment reports
02:03:57 reports and have until june to complete all actions michael suggested that the fire brigade be advised of the volume of outstanding fra actions however consensus of the group was that this would result in more scrutiny from
02:04:08 this would result in more scrutiny from the lfb
02:04:09 the lfb and also possible enforcement action so agreed
02:04:12 agreed we would not disclose this level of detail at this stage
02:04:17 and then it goes on jrp have reported back and have put the actions into programmes of works for alex's team michael will look at these programs and see how these can best be progressed in
02:04:28 see how these can best be progressed in order to meet the lfb's time scale michael said it would take him about two weeks to go through everything so he would give an update at the next meeting now we can see from what i've just read to you michael lyons suggesting that that that
02:04:40 michael lyons suggesting that that that the nfb should be told about the issue with the fras but that didn't find favor with the meeting did it i can't remember this meeting and i i haven't seen these minutes right since then so if you can't
02:04:52 right since then so if you can't remember
02:04:53 remember can we just proceed then on the basis that these minutes are um exactly as written in other words what was said and the meeting is accurately recorded here
02:05:07 is accurately recorded here i can't remember right recollection
02:05:12 it looks very much from this that there was concern on the part of the tmo about the lfb's increased scrutiny of completed fra actions or outstanding fra actions
02:05:24 fra actions i don't know if that's true or not that was purely dealt with by the health and safety team so i don't i didn't have any direct insight into it did you not have a feeling at the very least from this meeting that there was a
02:05:36 from this meeting that there was a problem
02:05:37 problem with the state of the fra issue to the extent that you were worried about what the lfb might make of it i was certain i was very clear that there was an issue with fire risk assessment actions
02:05:49 assessment actions and there was a concern that the lfb might find out if they exercised more scrutiny quite what the extent of outstanding fra actions was and put the tmr risk of
02:06:00 fra actions was and put the tmr risk of of enforcement action i don't have recollection of that second bit and it wasn't my area of responsibility so i wasn't really i wouldn't have been in that level no but you were at the meeting where these things are discussed and i'm just
02:06:11 things are discussed and i'm just seeking to i have no sorry i can't help i haven't got any recollection okay i mean some people reading this minute cold like i am because i wasn't there might think that the tma were intent on sweeping this issue under
02:06:23 were intent on sweeping this issue under the carpet and at least keeping it from the lfb
02:06:25 the lfb would that be fair um i could see why you could read it like that yes let's move on 21st march 2014 um is another operational health and
02:06:36 um is another operational health and safety meeting tm00840881 uh you were there uh
02:06:50 uh you were there uh as well as janice ray michael and michael lyons and and others and you can see um that this meeting included
02:06:59 included if you go please to page two a discussion of actions arising from fras it says this actions are now to be progressed by property
02:07:10 progressed by property the stats presented the meeting show for each team the total number of actions allocated to the w-2 system since it was introduced on first of august and the numbers which have been
02:07:22 august and the numbers which have been fully completed partially completed and those
02:07:24 those that remain outstanding you see that and it goes on in order to provide each team with more comprehensive information on the status of their allocated actions janus agreed forward reports further she
02:07:35 janus agreed forward reports further she agreed that in advance of future meetings she would provide each team with a current breakdown of all their actions to supplement the summary presented to this group the pre-w-2 backlog is approximately 1400 and michael
02:07:47 is approximately 1400 and michael confirmed that he has raised orders with rd
02:07:49 rd that's prepares direct i think for the responsive repairs he will provide details to janice say that these actions can be recorded as partially complete with the aim for them all being fully completed by end of june in line with
02:08:00 completed by end of june in line with their lfb
02:08:01 their lfb deadline now just explain to us the what w-2 what the w-2 system was and the pre-w-2 backlog um
02:08:13 backlog um so w-2 was a process i can't remember the name
02:08:17 the name it was a process management system so it workflow system so it was it gave you the ability to store documents but also to allocate actions
02:08:28 to allocate actions and and to track actions we can see it was introduced on the 1st of august that must be 2013. so was the proposal that that system should be used now in order to track outstanding and
02:08:41 now in order to track outstanding and completed fra action yes and i think prior to that it was probably monitored through a spreadsheet system which is vulnerable too okay now we can see as i've just read to you that as at this date of this meeting 21st of march
02:08:53 this date of this meeting 21st of march 2014 there appeared to be some 1400 actions in the pre-w2 backlog can you help us with whether that number of outstanding actions was a large
02:09:04 of outstanding actions was a large number
02:09:05 number a medium-sized number or a small number of outstanding actions in the context of the overall tmo housing stock i think that's a high number it's a high number that's an opinion and i don't
02:09:16 number that's an opinion and i don't have any insight into the volume of actions coming through or the aging and the prioritization of those actions but that to me instinctively says that that number should be smaller than that
02:09:27 that number should be smaller than that right
02:09:28 right and was that of significant concern to the tmo at the time do you remember yes yes was there a target number to come down to well not not as such
02:09:39 to come down to well not not as such from that
02:09:40 from that that 1400 but the priority the target was that actions were resolved and closed within time scales according to their priorities right and
02:09:53 according to their priorities right and we can see at the end of that paragraph i've just read to you um that there was an lfb deadline which looks as if it was the end of june is that correct i didn't know what the i don't know what the lfp deadline was
02:10:05 the lfp deadline was right you were at the meeting do you not remember
02:10:08 remember a discussion about the lfb deadline i don't know what the lfp deadline is i had no did you did you see this minute after
02:10:15 after the meeting um
02:10:20 i probably did but some time ago and i didn't have any direct involvement with liaison with the lfb so that wouldn't be an issue that i
02:10:31 so that wouldn't be an issue that i would have had any direct involvement with were the minutes of the operational health and safety committee regularly circulated to you after the meeting so that you could
02:10:42 after the meeting so that you could check the minutes i don't remember right
02:10:49 i mean i assume they were yes i was going to ask you you can't remember specifically each one but in in terms of the practice do you remember that the practice was that you would see these minutes
02:11:01 that you would see these minutes after the meeting yes would it be your practice that if there was something in the minutes that you didn't understand such as for example what the lfb deadline was
02:11:12 deadline was that you would go and talk to somebody about it so that you would understand what it was that was being discussed at the meeting at which you were present certainly if it had my name against it but that had michael lyon's name against it so it might not be something that i would
02:11:23 might not be something that i would look at right i see so is this right because it michael lyons this was a michael lyons matter you didn't trouble yourself to understand it um i mean my focus was really on
02:11:36 um i mean my focus was really on the issues for myself and my team so um that wasn't something that i was specifically aware of or i don't remember
02:11:48 looking at the details now below that in this same minute you can see and it's a little bit difficult because the numbering has gone a little wrong but it between the four and the five it says
02:11:59 and the five it says the risk allocation in the fra actions is as per the definition set out at the beginning of the assessment program and has agreed with the lfb if however anyone feels that the risk has been wrongly assessed
02:12:10 wrongly assessed please let janice know was that an invitation to challenge the assessment of risk within the fra itself
02:12:18 itself or was it the priority rating uh the of the fra actions i guess it could be
02:12:26 be either really right why would there be a challenge to the risk allocation um i don't know but you you need to look at the detail i
02:12:38 but you you need to look at the detail i suppose of each thing that you i mean challenges my question whether what has been defined in in the fire risk assessment is is correct whether it's been
02:12:51 is is correct whether it's been collectively powered prioritized or or whether the action that's been allocated is actually doable within the time scale that's been
02:13:03 time scale that's been specified what would happen if anybody did feel that a risk had been wrongly assessed and told janice ray um i guess there would be a conversation with janice and
02:13:14 with janice and potentially with the risk assessor right to clarify whether that was was appropriate and whether there was a different way of looking at it if that was appropriate did you ever take up miss ray's
02:13:26 did you ever take up miss ray's invitation to challenge the fra risk rating of any items i think i did talk about some specific issues because i think felt that sometimes it was um it was it was
02:13:39 it was um it was it was important to recognize that sometimes how long things will take so if you're given three weeks to do a task that's going to take three months you're set up to fail so i think it was about trying to get a bit of realism in there and
02:13:49 there and understand whether there's any way of mitigating that risk in the short term or you know is the job allocated accord right now but that wouldn't be challenging the wrong assessment of a
02:14:01 challenging the wrong assessment of a risk that might be challenging the time scale within which mr stokes had set for him to be cured yeah but but really what i'm asking is whether um you ever took up miss ray's
02:14:12 um you ever took up miss ray's invitation to challenge the fra risk rating such as whether it should be red or amber or green i'm sure i think challenge is a strong word i think it's um
02:14:22 um you know i think there would be discussion to clarify some issues certainly right well let me try it again um where she says if
02:14:30 says if if anyone feels that a risk has been wrongly assessed please let janice know did you ever yourself go to janice ray and say i think a risk has been wrongly assessed as a risk
02:14:42 assessed as a risk in other words wrongly assessed as a green and it should be a red or wrongly assessed as a red when it should be agreeing
02:14:47 agreeing possibly i may have had conversations on discrete points but i can't remember specific examples off the top of my head what would give you the expertise to do that i wouldn't have the expertise other than to be able to question whether the
02:14:59 to be able to question whether the assessor has got it right but ultimately the assessor's view would be final and that's not to say that i couldn't say is that correct right so the the assessor's view would be
02:15:11 so the the assessor's view would be final yeah right so just to be clear you would never pretend is this right to have better expertise at risk assessment than the fire risk assessor retained by the tmo no i have no
02:15:24 retained by the tmo no i have no qualification in this at all other than as a lay person who would look at something and think is that is that right
02:15:30 right and have a conversation to clarify that yes i see um can we then turn to the next meeting i want to show you 20th of june 2014 tmo one triple zero nine seven eight four
02:15:42 this is a health and safety operational meeting
02:15:47 on that date we can see that
02:15:54 you are present as is janice ray and others can we please turn to page two
02:16:08 and on that page you can see that there is a heading fra statistics a third of the way down jw confirmed that there had been a lot of progress for the responsive repairs in relation the fras the 121 jobs outstanding are on
02:16:20 the fras the 121 jobs outstanding are on track to be completed by the end of june pm highlighted that there are 30 actions which are linked to estate services training
02:16:27 training eeg emergency lighting and smoke alarms which have been arranged pm ask jw to clarify which of the actions could be defined as absolute requirements and which will best practice
02:16:37 practice jw to clarify how many of the actions are red's
02:16:40 are red's priorities what information were you seeking from janice ray
02:16:49 i don't remember why did you need clarification about what actions were reds
02:16:58 um i think i was looking it sounds like i'm looking to prioritize the work so we can make as much headway as we possibly can here
02:17:08 here surely this was just a matter of looking at the fra itself and seeing the color um
02:17:16 i'm looking for i mean i'm looking i was looking for a summary so i could manage rather than delving into the detail of every
02:17:27 detail of every fire risk assessment i was looking for some higher level information that i could
02:17:32 could help manage my team and my process well you see those two sentences
02:17:40 to be honest as i read it again i don't really understand the minute and so i'm i'm trying to i'm trying to answer your question but i really have no no recollections the specific point that we were talking
02:17:51 specific point that we were talking about there um so yeah well let's see if i can suggest to you what this
02:18:00 this looks like you is it right that you are actually asking janice ray to tell you which of the actions could be defined as truly
02:18:11 of the actions could be defined as truly red
02:18:12 red absolute requirements and which of the red ones might be treated as a little bit less red perhaps a bit amber
02:18:20 maybe green or maybe i'm looking at just a number of actions and not being able to say what priority they are at all
02:18:34 but it doesn't say that it says that you're after clarification which of the actions could be defined as absolute requirements and which were best practice now given that the fras
02:18:46 that the fras had a traffic light system why not simply
02:18:50 simply follow the traffic light system in the fras rather than seeking clarification i can't remember why i asked that were you trying to trim down the reds to
02:19:01 were you trying to trim down the reds to see if you could treat some as less red than others i'm sure i was trying to ensure that we got through the backlog that was there as quickly as possible and therefore understand
02:19:14 possible and therefore understand the priorities which ones were the priorities which ones of the priorities were already set out in the fras as read those were the priorities why did you need any further clarification well this suggests that maybe i couldn't see that
02:19:25 suggests that maybe i couldn't see that in the data that i was looking at maybe we were discussing at this meeting maybe that's what i was asking for clarification do you remember whether janice ray responded to you and said i will show you how many of the actions are read by
02:19:36 you how many of the actions are read by showing you the fras where they are read well the action is in janet here is for her to clarify how many of the actions are read so that sounds like the data that i was looking at didn't clarify that point i see um
02:19:50 didn't clarify that point i see um sorry to interrupt you mr williams um maybe you don't remember anything about this meeting but i'm not clear whether you're working here off the fras themselves which would have the
02:20:02 the fras themselves which would have the red amber green uh notation whether you're working off something in the nature of a spreadsheet that did or didn't show those things i mean it looks like it might even a spreadsheet but
02:20:13 might even a spreadsheet but do you recall at all almost almost certainly the latter because we never reviewed fire risk assessments themselves i would have remembered that it would have been the data that the extract data that we
02:20:25 the data that the extract data that we were looking at clearly had some questions that i was trying to understand but if it was a data sheet or spreadsheet did it not also show the red amber green
02:20:36 did it not also show the red amber green notation
02:20:37 notation it would suggest from my clarification that it didn't yeah but you you don't have a record i don't remember thank you but i think we saw a document earlier which suggested that you did know that there was
02:20:48 know that there was a traffic light system in operation there was but actually you know from this point forward and into the operations committee meetings uh beyond this um the month-by-month
02:20:59 uh beyond this um the month-by-month reports
02:21:00 reports weren't broken down so the the number of actions allocated was shown by uh due date but not by color by a priority color so
02:21:11 but not by color by a priority color so um
02:21:13 um so at this stage we were um from having from what i could see very little high level information we were getting some high level information but we were forming it into something that was a bit
02:21:24 forming it into something that was a bit more useful from a management perspective right i see moving then to february 2015 tm00869479
02:21:42 this is a meeting of the 23rd february 2015 of the health and safety operational committee and again you could see that you were present and if we turn uh to
02:21:54 uh to well we'll stay on the first page grenfell tower fire safety towards the bottom of the page
02:22:03 uh you can see a reference to that there and then fra stats at the bottom of the page
02:22:09 page jw confirmed that there had been an improvement in the number of outstanding fras a b had a contractor who was undertaking the fras in each after a recent review lancaster west had now become a priority and jw and siobhan
02:22:20 now become a priority and jw and siobhan rumble
02:22:21 rumble are in discussions about this and then it says
02:22:24 it says uh pm suggested that it would be useful to have more information in relation to the priority levels and nature over the top of page two of each
02:22:33 each outstanding fra pm and jw to discuss at a later stage jw confirmed that the team are managing and prioritizing the fras and that there will always be some outstanding fras due to the nature of
02:22:44 outstanding fras due to the nature of the assessments and then the action looks as if it's jw to split the outstanding fras into high medium and low categories with targets
02:22:57 first if one just goes back to the bottom of page one you'll see as i read to you that there had been a recent review of lancaster west which had become a priority
02:23:08 west which had become a priority why had lancaster west become a priority this is february 2015. i don't remember was it anything to do with the fra carried out at grenfell
02:23:19 with the fra carried out at grenfell tower on the 17th of october 2014
02:23:25 i don't know you got it i don't know now continuing with the rest of it i've read to you
02:23:36 read to you uh and the action note at the end on page two to split the outstanding fras into high medium and leg
02:23:42 and leg you're recorded here as seeking more detail about the priority of fras was that in relation to fire risk assessments that had not been completed or was it in relation to the actions
02:23:54 or was it in relation to the actions arising from the fras the actions i think is the point we discussed in in the last in your last point which is getting some more granular detail on what the actions were by priority i see so you needed more is
02:24:07 priority i see so you needed more is this right you needed more detail about what actions actually needed to be carried out at this at this level so at a management level what i was hoping to get is a better management
02:24:18 was hoping to get is a better management tool so i could see where the issues were and what needed to be actioned right so you're asking in fact for more information in relation to the priority levels
02:24:29 priority levels of each outstanding fra as well as their nature
02:24:33 nature why did you need to understand their priority levels because that dictates the time
02:24:37 the time in which they need to be resolved and also their urgency and the the level of risk but but again at this
02:24:45 at this we're now in february 2015 we've seen earlier requests for details on prioritization by this stage did you not have a document whether it was the original fras or whether it was a spreadsheet
02:24:57 fras or whether it was a spreadsheet which reflected the priorities accorded to the actions by the fire risk assessor it would appear not because that's what i'm asking for i mean obviously there would be the
02:25:07 be the fire risk assessment report itself available but that is you know there are ten thousand properties yeah there's a lot of that's a lot of work to fill i wanted i was looking for something which would give an overview that would help me
02:25:20 give an overview that would help me steer and direct the um the compliance in this field was this the same information about priority levels that you'd asked for
02:25:32 levels that you'd asked for in june 2014
02:25:36 it was june 2014 the last documentary yes i think so so is this right some seven perhaps eight months had gone by between you asking
02:25:47 you asking for a clarity about prioritization but had not received it possibly
02:25:58 you say possibly it looks on the documents that that is the case where you asking for any different information here in february 2015 from the information about priority that
02:26:09 from the information about priority that you were asking in the june of 2014 that we saw
02:26:12 we saw i think it seems to me like it's the same information that america right can you account for why it was that you kept having to ask for this prioritization information
02:26:24 i don't remember can you account for why the what you'd asked for first time in june 14 had not been given to you um i don't know what the offline conversation was between myself and
02:26:35 conversation was between myself and janice that was referred to in those minutes i can't remember did you ask janice ray or take her to task on the fact that you had you'd ask for this information seven months previous uh and still hadn't got it and ask her
02:26:48 uh and still hadn't got it and ask her why that was um i can't remember a specific conversation right
02:26:55 now
02:27:01 the
02:27:05 uh minutes suggest uh that they say actually the top of page two that you and janice ray would discuss this at a later stage
02:27:17 would discuss this at a later stage why was it necessary to discuss it at a later stage [Music]
02:27:27 um i assumed that it was an issue that wasn't going to be resolved at this meeting and that i agreed to have an offline conversation did you have an offline conversation with her
02:27:38 with her i'm sure i did but i can't remember specifics and when you say offline do you mean
02:27:42 you mean secret or unrecorded or i don't know what would be secret about any of this this would be about trying to gain understanding between my team and the health and safety team
02:27:53 team and the health and safety team you can't remember the specifics but you do you remember when you had this offline conversation with her about the matters
02:27:59 matters to be discussed at a later stage as indicated here i i don't do you know why janice ray needed to split the outstanding fra actions into categories with completion dates
02:28:12 with completion dates because that would have helped me understand the task that i was that was in hand was trying to ensure that that fire risk assessment actions were resolved
02:28:23 resolved in accordance with time scales and priorities and what was the process or procedure before that point i don't know well you had a procedure at that moment uh you were obviously working on on outstanding fra actions
02:28:35 outstanding fra actions so beyond which point are we talking at this point this is february 2015 what was the process or procedure for prioritization and identifying completion dates before
02:28:46 and identifying completion dates before janice ray did the split out that you'd ask for
02:28:52 um it was the same process that we described earlier so janus would allocate
02:28:58 allocate um an action to a team like whether it be repairs or the contract management team
02:29:04 team they would action that repair through the contract when they had confirmation that that repair was done they would report it back to janus who would close off the action and the fire risk assessment so there were a number of issues
02:29:15 were a number of issues one was the process itself was quite bureaucratic of communicating between various teams and but also there was the detail of the action that was actually
02:29:26 action that was actually carried out by the contractor i see so she would and what i was looking for was an overview so i could see what the priorities were and where the where any issues were that needed to be
02:29:38 where any issues were that needed to be uh addressed right but that was a goal an overview which you had been seeking from really very early on
02:29:49 seeking from really very early on in your role as director of assets and regeneration it wasn't it yes as we've seen so far this afternoon so we're now
02:30:00 so far this afternoon so we're now pretty much two years into your your role can you account for why even two years in you didn't have an overview of the priorities and completion dates of outstanding fras i can't remember
02:30:12 outstanding fras i can't remember exactly what data i did have at that time that was something that would have been reviewed at these meetings
02:30:18 meetings and going forward i don't remember the specifics there may have been something
02:30:25 was the intention that janice ray's categories would match all red days already given to the actions by the fire risk assessor or would she do some other form of categorization no it was the same as the fire risk
02:30:37 no it was the same as the fire risk assessment right
02:30:41 sticking on this page for the moment when it says there will always be some outstanding fras due to the nature of the assessments what did that mean you remember um
02:30:53 what did that mean you remember um well it's a process it's a process there'll always be a flow of work you'll always have some actions which are to be completed right the task was to make sure that they were they were done within the time
02:31:04 they were done within the time prioritized okay how would it be safe to have fras in a permanent state of uncompleted actions um
02:31:16 well it's because risk assessments will be carried out on a program basis so they're not all carried out at once and then you carry them out there'll be it'll be a flow of process so at any one time there will be there
02:31:27 so at any one time there will be there will be a number of actions which are still in date and the what what i what i was looking to do is to understand here is which which were in date
02:31:38 in date and which were in risk of running out of date and
02:31:41 date and what were their priorities because obviously so um you know a low a low priority um low priority fire risk assessment actually might have six months to be
02:31:52 actually might have six months to be completed
02:31:52 completed so that's what outstanding fras means is it there but when one looks at the words some outstanding fras there did you understand that what she meant was
02:32:03 meant was in date and uncompleted or out of date i read that to say there's never going to be a point where there's going to be zeros it's going to it's always going to be
02:32:14 it's going to it's always going to be there's always going to be something to be done
02:32:15 be done right i see what you mean now uh mr chairman we've come to 4 30 and i'm still in the same stream but going to go to a different document um perhaps that's a convenient
02:32:26 um perhaps that's a convenient i think it probably is isn't it mr millet because uh if we carry on on this stream we might um take up a little time yeah yes well mr madison i think that's a convenient point at which to
02:32:39 convenient point at which to finish for the day so i think you were expecting to come back tomorrow in any event weren't you yes yes good right well we look forward to seeing you at 10 o'clock tomorrow then please
02:32:50 please and please remember not to discuss your evidence or anything relating to it of course over the break thank you thank
02:33:04 you
02:33:08 thank you 10 o'clock tomorrow then [Music]
02:33:18 please you