Grenfell Tower Inquiry - Kensington & Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Evidence - Thursday 6th May 2021 (2/2)
00:00:18 would you ask mrs brown to come back in
00:00:28 please
00:00:40 all right ready to carry on yeah well done thank you yes thanks sir um mrs brown could we just go back to where we began and that was your sort of training um was your five-year degree course linked
00:00:52 was your five-year degree course linked to the chartered institute for housings uh in any way shape or form yes that's that's sorry that was my five years yeah and did it did that course address issues specific to fire safety
00:01:03 issues specific to fire safety can you remember it was a significant long time ago and i don't remember specifically unfortunately and does membership of the chartered institute require any cpd
00:01:14 institute require any cpd uh training to be pursued um it yeah it's recommended yeah is it mandatory
00:01:25 is it mandatory not then i haven't done any okay at all or in relation to fire safety i haven't done any reason um at all okay
00:01:36 i haven't done any reason um at all okay um in relation from considering from the perspective of evacuation have you ever been informed instructed or trained to the effect that stay put is sufficient on its own
00:01:47 is sufficient on its own or is that simply an assumption you made as a response to a fire sufficient on its own as in
00:01:58 sufficient on its own as in as a response to a fire
00:02:01 um i'm not quite sure what you were i mean obviously there are five fire safety measures that sit behind that
00:02:09 that to enable that to be in terms of things like fire closures and is that is that what you mean no sorry have you ever had any specific training on
00:02:20 on the approach to safety control measures following on from your answer to control risks arising from fire safety hazards no i haven't had any specific
00:02:30 specific fire risk training um have you had any specific training on peeps themselves the circumstances in which they're required
00:02:38 required their scope the detail no no but i have
00:02:43 no i haven't now can i go back to the storage of data in relation to vulnerable residents you said earlier that neighborhood officers could enter data on vulnerable
00:02:55 officers could enter data on vulnerable residents to crm and david noble or one of his team would enter vulnerably data vulnerability data on capita now my first question is this did you
00:03:06 now my first question is this did you recognize that there was a risk of different data being recorded on two systems
00:03:12 systems i.e capita and crm um i did but um it where we put it depended on the
00:03:21 on the the source of it the information coming in but i did recognize if you're question if i'm writing your question i did recognize that there was a risk if if um crm didn't feed back into capita
00:03:33 if um crm didn't feed back into capita i did recognize that and how did you mitigate that so so it was something that i raised with rit um
00:03:39 rit um department um and asked for you know for them to
00:03:43 them to think about a solution for that and i i i don't remember the outcome of that i mean obviously all these systems and processes were in development
00:03:54 processes were in development um and i i don't remember if the feed goes backwards and so would it be fair to say that you lack the specific technical
00:04:05 you lack the specific technical knowledge to know whether all relevant information was being captured after 2016 on crm
00:04:13 um i i what i knew was that um that some information was being captured on crm and i knew that some information was being captured on capita
00:04:24 information was being captured on capita and everything that went on to capital fed into crm that's what i knew so i would have known to look in two places
00:04:33 places were any checks carried out to ensure that up-to-date information was fully captured on crm and was being accessed as the most up-to-date uh source of data by by your employees
00:04:47 uh source of data by by your employees i'm i'm not sure how we could have checked that it was being captured i'm not sorry i'm not quite sure of your question there sorry data's been collected from questionnaires do you accept that
00:04:59 questionnaires do you accept that yes definitely that data after 2016 is recorded on crm do you accept that no not all of the so the question is the questionnaire information was still being put into capital
00:05:11 being put into capital from the tenancy profile information was always still put into capital that didn't change and do you know of the extent to which that information was then captured as or could be accessed via crm so
00:05:24 as or could be accessed via crm so my understanding is that all information that went through capita would feed into crm and therefore it could be accessed by anybody and would continue to be that way that feed never changed
00:05:36 feed never changed but you accepted earlier on that there was a risk that information might not be captured in that way no i don't think i was saying that what what i was saying was that there was a risk that information that was put directly into crm
00:05:48 directly into crm wasn't fed back into capita so there wasn't
00:05:52 wasn't the link back is what is what i'm saying i'm certain that the profiling information went into capita so there'd be a risk that would be different information on capital than there was on crm
00:06:03 there was on crm yes and i know these these were things that we were we were looking at whether we continued to use capital in the long term or whether we moved you know move forward stopping there let's take it step by step this
00:06:14 let's take it step by step this probably be easier were you absolutely sure
00:06:18 sure that after crm came online that all your employees were accessing the right system to access the most up-to-date information about vulnerable residents
00:06:30 information about vulnerable residents i'm i'm certain that it that so the majority of staff were using just
00:06:36 just crm and that's where they would see their up-to-date information neighborhood staff and who needed to know more detailed um information could view um w-2 where
00:06:48 um information could view um w-2 where the main data was held and could have could view capital was there a minority of employees who are only accessing capita and who therefore may not have access to
00:07:01 and who therefore may not have access to the full complete and accurate so everybody across if you just wait for the it's really important you just wait for the question to finish rather than talking over
00:07:12 so everyone across the organisation had access to crm we rolled it out across the organization so everybody could see that single single view information and
00:07:24 single view information and information was on there in terms of vulnerability now you said that in the event of an emergency tml tmo officers would be able to produce a list of vulnerable residents would that list be derived
00:07:36 residents would that list be derived from
00:07:36 from crm or capital um
00:07:43 i mean clearly the list that david noble gave us
00:07:47 gave us i i'm not sure where it came from to be fair yeah i mean i would expect i would expect when we asked that for people to have used both
00:07:59 people to have used both i think in the interim
00:08:03 even though that possibly gave rise to a risk of an employee accessing incomplete data on capital would you expect them to go to crm and
00:08:14 would you expect them to go to crm and then capita so someone like david noble who so as part of that vulnerability policy what it says in there is that we would build
00:08:23 build templates of information to to utilize and i would expect um reports to come from david's team principally is where they came when when we needed information he could
00:08:35 when we needed information he could access both capital and crm okay right can we turn uh now to our previous fires and earlier on in your evidence we
00:08:46 fires and earlier on in your evidence we discussed a dare do you remember that there was a fire at trellic tower in april 2017. yes i do and um is it right that you attended the scene
00:08:57 is it right that you attended the scene following the fire i attended the scene the following morning when i knew about it yeah and that had the tower trellic tower been evacuated
00:09:09 the tower trellic tower been evacuated to some extent as a result of the fire um do you remember that i'm trying to remember i don't know if there was a voluntary evacuation or a fire brigade evacuation
00:09:20 fire brigade evacuation it doesn't really matter i'm i'm i'm not sure i wasn't i wasn't there so i can't i can't tell you precisely what happened the night before but you are aware that there was an
00:09:31 but you are aware that there was an evacuation whether voluntarily or sponsored by i remember that some people had left
00:09:37 had left the building yeah but but the fire had been contained within the property
00:09:45 um had that fire at a dare sorry a trellic tower um prompted you to reconsider the need for peeps in relation to vulnerable residents
00:09:56 residents no the fire had been contained within the flat as as you know most of the other fires that i had
00:10:04 had experienced in my working career had and now
00:10:07 now it didn't it you know reinforced that compartmentalization worked in so you didn't feel that the fact of evacuation whether voluntary or prompted by the lfb uh ought to have
00:10:18 or prompted by the lfb uh ought to have given
00:10:19 given cause to pause to think whether peeps might have been required for vulnerable and disabled residents no because you know nobody fed that back as an
00:10:28 an issue in terms of you know either you know the evacuation people didn't feed back as an issue for anybody and when you say nobody fed back are you
00:10:39 and when you say nobody fed back are you saying so the lfb didn't say anything to you so the fire brigade didn't didn't feed back anything as an issue it didn't come up at all as an issue do you remember any lessons to be learned exercise being
00:10:51 lessons to be learned exercise being carried out uh either by the health and safety team or any other department of the tmo following the debt uh following the trellic terrifier no not following the trello fire no um
00:11:04 no although i think we were looking just at how we communicated internally with each other after that fire as in who got who got told at night um so i didn't realize about it until the
00:11:15 so i didn't realize about it until the next morning in that particular circumstance now can we turn on to a sort of linked topic which is the emergency plan now in your third statement to the inquiry which can be found at tm010
00:11:32 and at page two and paragraph seven uh you mentioned that there was an rbkc contingency management plan and then you go on to say paragraph eight
00:11:44 go on to say paragraph eight the tmo emergency plan was therefore intentionally not in operation at that time
00:11:48 time as would be wrong and potentially unsafe to have more than one emergency plan in place
00:11:52 place as is recognized by the wider rbkc contingency management plan and multi-agency liaison protocols and procedures you then go on at paragraph 11.
00:12:06 let's say i was not involved in training an emergency planning response that came under the remit of janice ray i'm aware that following the fire at dare tower a joint rbkc and tmo review was undertaken of the emergency response
00:12:17 was undertaken of the emergency response of the fire after which a joint contingency planning exercise between rbkc and tmo teams was undertaken you say i was not involved in this exercise as regard arrangements to warn inform advise the public in the event of
00:12:28 inform advise the public in the event of an emergency like the grenfell tower fire
00:12:30 fire these fell under broader fire safety and health and safety arrangements i was aware that as part of those arrangements a staple policy was in place
00:12:38 place in the event of a fire occurring at grenfell tower um how did you come to understand that the tmo emergency plan was not in operation in which circumstance in in a dare or yes yeah in a dare fire
00:12:52 in a dare or yes yeah in a dare fire um
00:12:56 because um because it was a it was a larger scale fire the fire brigades were there they were controlling it and um the council had sent initially
00:13:08 and um the council had sent initially a um sorry what they called um an a layla and authority yeah they had sent one to
00:13:19 authority yeah they had sent one to to to the scene of the fire and i knew robert was liaising with them um on that occasion they didn't stay as long as we had like but they had definitely
00:13:30 definitely thought it was their response right from the outside now you gave evidence showing phase one of the inquiry on the 16th of november 2018
00:13:40 2018 uh when you confirmed that you were familiar with the tmo emergency plan and you also confirmed that you understood that the tmo emergency plan would not use this plan due to the scale of the emergency on the 14th of june
00:13:52 of the emergency on the 14th of june 2017. now could we go to the annual report for 2015-16 which is at tm008
00:14:11 and this says that in major emergencies i'm just trying to find the relevant section of it but i'll read it out
00:14:22 section of it but i'll read it out in major emergencies the council's emergency plan is activated however for more minor emergencies which specifically affect our blocks not major enough to require the counting of a whole block tmo has its own emergency plan and if we
00:14:35 tmo has its own emergency plan and if we go to page 16 we can pick this up
00:14:42 apologies
00:14:47 i don't think that is right anyway i'll continue reading in the wake of the serious fire at dare tower the chief executive and the executive team reviewed the out of hours cascade
00:14:57 cascade the roles and responsibilities of employees currently involved with the emergency plan and how this links to rbkc's emergency plan the executive team confirmed tiemo arrangements worked well and should remain in place however
00:15:09 and should remain in place however efforts to publicize this within the organization are in hand um were you aware of the nature and extent of the tmo arrangements before june 2017
00:15:21 arrangements before june 2017 um yes yes i was aware of the cascades yeah
00:15:25 yeah then and the in house and out out of ours one
00:15:29 ours one could you help us how would you assess the size of an incident in order to identify
00:15:34 identify which emergency plan would be implemented um basically it was around whether it was something that the the tmo could deal with themselves or other um
00:15:45 other um resources and assistance were needed so if a rest center was needed it's really down to the scale of the emergency and how many properties were affected and impacted so view is taken
00:15:57 affected and impacted so view is taken on the night essentially under on yeah in accordance with the circumstances yes now if could we turn to tmo one double zero
00:16:06 zero one three eight nine eight
00:16:12 now this is the emergency plan that uh was in place on in june 2017 and if we go to page 14 within this plan
00:16:23 go to page 14 within this plan um it says uh vulnerable residents near the top that's it information on numbers of known vulnerable residents are included on the black property
00:16:34 are included on the black property details
00:16:35 details which form part of this plan and did you ever provide up-to-date information on vulnerable residents to include in the property details of of this uh element of the form no and i wasn't asked to
00:16:49 were you aware of a need to do so no did anyone discuss the need to do so not that i remember did janice ray ever raise the point with you no
00:17:03 if we can go down further on this page you'll see the heading duty rotor and it says this a rotor of on-call staff mostly resident esa is maintained by the head of
00:17:14 esa is maintained by the head of neighborhood management these staff are on call outside of normal working hours the list is available to csc and pinnacle
00:17:21 pinnacle um it would appear that the esa's would be the first staff on call to any incident
00:17:26 incident is that a fair and accurate summary um some of them it was on a rota basis so not all of our esa's were on our out of ours
00:17:34 ours um call rotor it was it was an optional thing so
00:17:39 thing so if we can now turn to page 17 within this document
00:17:44 and we see in the top left a note in the which says key decision makers so top right i should say key decision makers are likely to be staff in the green shaded boxes
00:17:58 staff in the green shaded boxes now how did you ensure that your team identified in the green shaded boxes and in white were aware of their responsibilities under the plan um and i think this i think this was
00:18:10 um and i think this i think this was well circulated i think this was something
00:18:12 something um that janice led and um did meet regularly with these people particularly in respect of the outer bars i actually wasn't on the
00:18:24 the outer bars i actually wasn't on the out of ours rotor
00:18:27 but i know that she um i believe that she did do training with them about what was required um you believe do you know how regularly that training was
00:18:39 that training was invited i i can't i can't recall i'm afraid
00:18:46 could we go to page 34
00:18:54 there we see checklist fire um have you seen this page before this checklist before
00:19:04 i i probably have i don't i don't recall it in any
00:19:08 it in any detail do you recall it at all have you seen it before um have a read of it to refresh your
00:19:22 memory
00:19:26 um no i'm not i'm not sure with certainty
00:19:30 certainty now if we see on the far left hand side number seven the question is will residents have to be evacuated do you accept that is a question that
00:19:41 do you accept that is a question that ought to be considered in the event of a fire
00:19:45 fire um yes i do accept it's something that would have to be assessed and i would see that to be
00:19:56 to be the fire brigade to assess that when they arrived at the i arrived at the scene does that mean that the tmo in your view has no role in
00:20:07 that the tmo in your view has no role in deciding
00:20:08 deciding whether um to what extent to evacuate yeah and this is and it says here liaise with on-site staff so you know in all my experience that has been a fire brigade decision at the time
00:20:19 been a fire brigade decision at the time of
00:20:20 of a fire it's not for us to decide um we wouldn't have the expertise or knowledge i don't think but with respect mrs brown says liaise
00:20:31 but with respect mrs brown says liaise with on-site staff it doesn't say liaise with the lfb does it no it doesn't say that but if you're if you're talking about a fire they will be there
00:20:41 there at that stage but it's quite clear here in answer to the question will residents have to be evacuated the answer or the action is liaise with on-site staff presumably tmo staff
00:20:53 on-site staff presumably tmo staff that's all that's said here isn't it um yeah and there's no reference to the lfb is there
00:21:00 is there no there isn't but it's not saying that they make the decision it's saying liaise with the staff on site so staff on site will be communicating with other people in an emergency can we go to a fire risk
00:21:11 in an emergency can we go to a fire risk assessment for grenfell which can be found at cst quadruple zero three one four five and page five
00:21:24 and we see in the final section of that under the heading the evacuation strategy for this building it says for the residents have built this building there is a state put evacuation strategy
00:21:36 evacuation strategy this mean the residents can remain within their own dwelling is otherwise affected by the fire in which case they should immediately evacuate their dwelling and call the fire and rescue service the fire service or tmo employees will
00:21:49 the fire service or tmo employees will arrange for a general evacuation of the whole building at any time if this is appropriate to do so now the first point there is the fire risk assessment itself anticipates the tmo
00:21:59 tmo having some role there as well doesn't it
00:22:04 in relation to evacuation oh yes it does now given that there had been an evacuation at a dare in october 2015
00:22:14 and trellic in april 2017 would you agree that the tmo's recent experience before the grenfell fire gave no assurance that stay put
00:22:25 stay put would be appropriate in all circumstances no no i don't agree with that the um
00:22:32 the dare fire was contained within one flat and then sorry not the the trellic and the adair
00:22:43 sorry not the the trellic and the adair fire um i do know that our esa was on site so played some kind of role in that i don't know precisely but he was on site
00:22:55 don't know precisely but he was on site robert was on site but i don't think that you know they played the major role in the evacuation in that circumstance it was the fire
00:23:06 in that circumstance it was the fire brigade who took control and and did that but
00:23:09 that but we did have staff on site
00:23:13 can we now turn to the topic of fire safety um complaints and if we could turn to your first statement please mrs brown tmo
00:23:24 treble zero double zero eight nine five and page four
00:23:32 and paragraph twenty in particular and here you explain the complaints uh procedure now to break this down that stage one the team complained about would respond
00:23:44 the team complained about would respond to the complaint is that right yes that's right and then if the complaint was escalated to stage two you would oversee the complaint is that right yeah the head of service would
00:23:56 right yeah the head of service would would deal with it and then i would just have a look at that and so did you oversee the team leaders responses to the stage one complaint no i didn't do that who did um i
00:24:08 no i didn't do that who did um i i believe that the head of service would and what was the role of the complaints team
00:24:13 team in this process in your experience so the complaints team logs and monitored our complaints so they set time scales and they logged them and they divvied them out to the most appropriate person to deal with
00:24:26 most appropriate person to deal with them
00:24:27 them and then we sent our responses back to them
00:24:31 them before they went out and how did you monitor
00:24:35 monitor staff understanding of the complaints procedure and how to monitor it
00:24:44 um how did i monitor it um we're taking it stage by stage did you ensure that your staff were trained and how to pursue or how to apply the complaints process i don't remember any specific training
00:24:57 i don't remember any specific training but i know that they were aware of how to do it they they dealt with complaints and they responded to them appropriately in numbers so when you
00:25:04 you say you weren't aware of any specific training were they trained on how to apply the complaints process i can't remember any training but i would imagine that they had been and they you know they were familiar
00:25:15 and they you know they were familiar with
00:25:16 with the complaints process and i didn't have any concern to think they weren't applying it appropriately to say
00:25:24 to say that they needed any additional training but i can't confirm when they would have had any and so you had no concerns expressed you directly about the uh adequacy or the effectiveness or
00:25:35 the uh adequacy or the effectiveness or the efficiency with which your staff manage the complexity no no were you aware of the complaints policy definition of complaints inquiries and service requests yeah and how did you decide
00:25:48 yeah and how did you decide how would you classify a matter that was put before you what criteria would you apply so i mean it's very clear that sort of a
00:25:59 i mean it's very clear that sort of a surf um
00:26:01 surf um service request was was not a complaint that was the initial request from service
00:26:06 service so a complaint would have been um a dissatisfaction with service by ourselves or the contractor or also um about an attitude of either ourselves or
00:26:19 either ourselves or someone providing the service and were you trained on the appropriate criteria to apply to determine correctly the the right classification um i don't i don't remember that
00:26:33 um i don't i don't remember that but i didn't know about it i was fully aware of it as were my staff can you remember whether there was any issue with complaints being misclassified as inquiries i don't remember that
00:26:45 inquiries i don't remember that specifically no can you recall now what information was provided to residents about the complaints process itself the complaints process was publicized it was on our website i think it was in
00:26:57 was on our website i think it was in link um and we would you know we i think it was also there was information in our in our receptions in our three receptions
00:27:09 and if we could turn to housing monthly team meeting on the 31st of march 2014 we looked at this slightly earlier and it's at tmo double zero eight five zero eight zero seven
00:27:27 okay you are there and if we turn to page four
00:27:32 item 8.0 complaints process filing and we see the minute to item 8.2 team need to send responses to cmtb
00:27:43 team need to send responses to cmtb can you help us who was cm um to use my pa
00:27:48 pa so tb can read tb will advise when it can be sent complaints teams should be copied in at that stage where counselors send inquiries directly to section heads teams leaders it is fine for them to respond directly
00:28:01 it is fine for them to respond directly did you sign off all responses to complaints addressed to your team no no i didn't i didn't
00:28:09 didn't do stage one um i would have reviewed stage two
00:28:13 stage two i don't remember doing all of the counsellor inquiries because sometimes they were um
00:28:22 emails and they would have responded to some of those directly yeah if a complaint went straight to your team would that mean it wasn't recorded no if complaints came straight to our
00:28:35 no if complaints came straight to our teams we should have logged them with the complaints team okay
00:28:40 okay now could we turn to another minute of the housing monthly team meeting this time on the 26th of august 2014 and this is at tm00851809
00:28:57 and if we can go to page 2 and in particular item 2.6
00:29:08 and now there's the headings roughly halfway down the page complaints this information is meaningless if there is no breakdown the statistics are not reflective of what is happening target dates are
00:29:19 what is happening target dates are rolled out which means that they are still within target sometimes complainants are not getting a full response for 70 to 100 days tb to discuss with shawn bowman or janet c wood
00:29:30 c wood did you discuss that problem with either of those ladies um well i believe that i did i didn't i didn't raise that as an issue somebody in my team had told me so this isn't these aren't my words
00:29:41 me so this isn't these aren't my words this is a record of what someone else said
00:29:43 said and i believe that i that we did um when you say we did you discuss that concern with either siobhan bowman and or janet seawood
00:29:54 or janet seawood so i can't remember specifically doing it but what i can say is that um we had we had
00:30:04 we did implement quite a w-2 process around it sorry crm process around it that really logged and tracked complaints and sent as reminders
00:30:15 as reminders so i know that if these were issues previously they were issues that we worked on and resolved as an organization and that there was um you know a solid process for monitoring
00:30:27 you know a solid process for monitoring and making sure that people responded can you give us excuse me some detail as to what actions you or your team took to address the problem so
00:30:39 to address the problem so um well we developed the crm system and the
00:30:43 the and the um workflow that went with that that directed um you know how how people should respond and track and log that as as the complaint
00:30:54 track and log that as as the complaint went along okay now can we go back to your first statement which is at tmo treble zero double zero eight nine five
00:31:06 page two and a particular paragraph twelve
00:31:12 it just flows on from the answer you've just given you say that if residents drew attention to wider issues of safety or technical specification for repairs it would be recorded on crm
00:31:23 repairs it would be recorded on crm and directed to the appropriate department for a response and then you continue
00:31:27 continue in the final sentence say this if that matter had any general health and safety or fire safety implications the matter would be referred to the health and safety team to deal with the first question is the obvious one
00:31:40 the first question is the obvious one what matters would be identified as having quotes health and safety or fire safety implications close quotes um so if maybe it was to do with a
00:31:52 so if maybe it was to do with a fire risk assessment and action from that or
00:31:55 that or um trying to think of some examples would res would residents have raised an fra action do you have no residents wouldn't have sorry no
00:32:07 no residents wouldn't have sorry no they they wouldn't um i'm trying to think of one um so for example the issue of that mobility scooter that we had that one of my neighborhood officers was
00:32:20 that one of my neighborhood officers was dealing with that would have been something that she would have just likely discussed with health and safety teams so that may be an example
00:32:31 safety teams so that may be an example sorry was any guidance and training provided to your staff to identify what could be properly classified as fire safety matters um i'm
00:32:42 matters um i'm i'm not sure um being more specific as to particular matters that may fall within the scope of fire safety implications would repairs to flat entrance doors be
00:32:53 repairs to flat entrance doors be identified as a fire safety issue um yes but they wouldn't repairs to flat safety doors wouldn't necessarily go to janus they would they were something that was dealt with by our um
00:33:05 by our um repairs direct so if we identified an issue with a flat front door it would go to um it would be logged through our customer service centered and sent to
00:33:16 service centered and sent to rd to deal with repairs direct to deal with and does that answer apply equally to
00:33:21 to if there are an issue report about communal doors yes they would repair them and self-closing devices yes
00:33:32 if any matter was referred to the health and safety team what arrangements were in place to monitor
00:33:39 monitor whether the health and safety team had actually responded in time and satisfactorily to any uh issue raised so if it was logged on our
00:33:47 our crm system and allocated to them as an action
00:33:51 action you could tell um when they'd responded how because it your response is logged and the email that you sent is is um
00:34:02 and the email that you sent is is um is recorded and tracked within that system
00:34:05 system thank you ms brown now mr brown we've come to the end of my prepared questions uh you'll remember from uh two years ago that we now have a break of quarter of an hour if that's all right with you sir
00:34:16 an hour if that's all right with you sir and let me see if there are any further matters which i've should ask which i haven't done and if there are any other lines of questioning yes
00:34:23 yes well as you know we need to have a break now just to sweep up any further questions so we'll stop now until ten to three please okay and then we'll see if there are more questions for you at that stage
00:34:34 more questions for you at that stage thank you thank you very much
00:34:44 right turn to three then
00:53:02 would you ask mrs brown to come back in
00:53:12 please
00:53:20 all right this is ron yeah right well let's see if there are any more questions for you yes mr kennedy there are just a few sir mr thank you um could we go to tmoh00907
00:53:38 and could we go to the bottom of page three of this chain
00:53:44 and you'll see there an email from andrea newton center sasha jevons copying others at the tmo on the 9th of march 2016. if we can go to page four
00:53:57 if we can go to page four and we see from the top of page four five lines down there's a sentence which starts i'll get straight to it
00:54:06 and then andrew newton says i feel there's a huge lack of coordination within tmo and repairs direct now if i can go back to page one
00:54:20 and you'll see at the bottom of the page sasha jevons forwarded that email to you now when you received this email
00:54:31 to you now when you received this email did you read the email chain below it and so you saw the complaints that andrea newton had raised about lack of coordination between tmo and repairs direct yeah it was around that and uh and
00:54:42 that and uh and a lot of other things yeah and were you aware of concerns expressed by residents about
00:54:48 about the tmos management of repairs um i i knew that that had this yes i was that
00:54:55 that i was aware that um she had some concerns yes were those concerns widespread or were they confined to andrew newton i am not i don't think they would have
00:55:06 i am not i don't think they would have been combined to um andrea newton and what was the essential nature of the concerns that were
00:55:11 were expressed to you um so i think that at the time this is shortly before the fire i think i know it wasn't a year before i think overall performance was
00:55:23 overall performance was um according to uh was was quite good in terms of um performance indicators um but i think there are always issues that you can improve upon and i think
00:55:35 that you can improve upon and i think through
00:55:36 through the work that i did with the through my teams through the customer service center who ordered um repairs you could see that there were some issues where we could improve upon things like leaks
00:55:48 we could improve upon things like leaks and um repeat jobs and those types of things were were issues that we were continually looking at and trying to improve so i was aware of that and what practical measures did you take
00:55:59 and what practical measures did you take to respond to andrea newton's complaint can you now remember yes i can specifically so um uh graham webb managing director of repairs
00:56:10 graham webb managing director of repairs director myself did a walkabout with andrea newton um and i think nikki nikki attended nikki bartholomew the new west manager at the time
00:56:22 west manager at the time and we walked the whole um whole estate making a note of any issues that she had concerns about thank you can i now turn to a separate topic that's of resident engagement
00:56:33 topic that's of resident engagement um your statements don't refer to any of the residence organizations relevant to grenfell first of all do you accept that engagement with resident organizations is a crucial part
00:56:44 part of housing management um yes yes and what does she or what do you consider would be achieved from engagement with resident organizations um you get you get feedback
00:56:58 um you get you get feedback um about services and how they feel um they're going what the key issues are um you know from their point of view and it helps you
00:57:07 helps you shape and improve services i think we certainly picked up on some of the things that andrew and newton was saying at these this time and implemented them particularly around
00:57:18 particularly around um repairs repairs direct so we um i did a structural review in in neighborhood services where we we looked at the office and the services
00:57:29 we looked at the office and the services provided by the office and we made sure that we could report repairs directly at that office and going forward and the cse member of staff that we had was
00:57:41 cse member of staff that we had was on reception was put there as a result of that reorganization and this sort of feedback
00:57:47 feedback and what would be the nature and extent of the engagement you would expect one of your neighborhood teams to have with the residence group so i i know that um nikki bartholomew and her team
00:57:58 her team um built a very good relationship with the
00:58:01 the ra there and they did fortnightly walkabouts with them um to you know to keep in touch with um any issues that they may have uh did you
00:58:12 any issues that they may have uh did you monitor
00:58:12 monitor the levels of resident engagement that you'd uh
00:58:16 you'd uh were consistent with your expectations
00:58:20 um not not specifically i mean i was aware of um discussions and things that were happening and i didn't see any concern to you know to um
00:58:34 any concern to you know to um to be involved in them any more than i had previously um so i i thought that the relationship um
00:58:41 um was was going well they seem to be building a good relationship andrew newton was very complimentary about the work of that neighbourhood team and what contact did you yourself have with for example the lancaster west
00:58:53 with for example the lancaster west residents association so i i did the walkabout with the lancaster
00:58:59 lancaster residents association at this time i didn't have any day-to-day in input with them so you know they they had they were meeting with
00:59:10 meeting with nikki and her team and above that there were
00:59:14 were um you know a head of service so i didn't do so on a day-to-day basis but i would have done had i needed to thought it was necessary would the same answer apply to the grenfell
00:59:25 the same answer apply to the grenfell tower leaseholders association what was your contact with that body um i didn't meet with them but i did respond to um
00:59:35 to um elements of their emails and complaints were that were relevant to my team so i wouldn't have directly replied to them but i would have um you know given comments or paragraphs
00:59:47 um you know given comments or paragraphs within that response and what was your contact with the grenfell tower compact um i think i went to a couple of meetings with the grenfell compact
01:00:00 grenfell compact but they were largely attended by pete madison
01:00:03 madison and my head of service but i did go to a few of those yes can i turn to a separate topic now which is equality and diversity training what training did you receive in
01:00:14 what training did you receive in relation to the tmo's duties towards residents with protected characteristics under the equality act i didn't i didn't attend any particular training there were you aware of the public sector
01:00:25 were you aware of the public sector equality duty and how it applied to residents
01:00:29 residents um
01:00:32 probably but i i can't i can't recall um did you receive any uh equalities training particularly directed to the needs of
01:00:43 particularly directed to the needs of the vulnerable or disabled um so um
01:00:48 um so um yes i have over my career yes definitely um
01:00:52 um i have specialized in asb and you know over the years and spent a lot of time um either organizing or being involved in training on those particular matters
01:01:03 in training on those particular matters so
01:01:03 so you know that would have been um all of the
01:01:07 the skills that were required to respond to vulnerable residents not just within anti-social behaviour but more broadly as we've talked about earlier today um whose role was it to ensure that the
01:01:18 um whose role was it to ensure that the advocacy of communication of fire safety information to residents with an additional language or other communication needs um that all the communication would have been um
01:01:27 been um from our health and safety team they led on that communication are you aware of any consideration given to proactively offering fire safety advice to tenants based on their first language
01:01:39 to tenants based on their first language which they were known to speak no i don't i don't think that we did do that although there was obviously a
01:01:47 a translation strip in our in our publications and we would have carried out translation had we been asked and did on occasions
01:01:58 had we been asked and did on occasions on other matters i knew that my team were having things translated thank you um mrs brown i've come to the end of
01:02:07 end of uh my questions for today the final question is there anything you'd like to say to the panel over and above the evidence that you've given
01:02:15 given during the course of today um i think we spent a lot of time talking about peeps today perhaps perhaps i shouldn't actually go
01:02:28 perhaps perhaps i shouldn't actually go there
01:02:29 there no no don't if you don't feel comfortable but i just think it's a very complicated um a complicated area of business and i think it's some you know thought really needs to be
01:02:40 some you know thought really needs to be given about the guidance it needs to be really thought through it's very complicated in terms of
01:02:46 terms of how how you keep peeps up today how you implement them in evacuation situations it's obviously the subject of much debate but it is something where there needs to be absolute clarity on for everybody going
01:02:58 absolute clarity on for everybody going forward
01:02:59 forward i think that's something i would say mrs brown thank you thank you thank you very much for attending to give evidence today we're most grateful thank you well mrs brown before you go let me thank you if i may on behalf of
01:03:10 let me thank you if i may on behalf of all the members of the panel um i think we understand that it's not easy to come here and give a hint and this is the second time you've done it so we are very grateful to you
01:03:21 it so we are very grateful to you it's been very helpful to hear what you have to tell us and uh thank you very much indeed thank you it's all over and you can get it to the next time thank you
01:03:44 to the next time thank you mr kenny i know that's is that it for today that is it for today uh and we start again on monday at ten o'clock with another tier moment another witness yes good well thank you very much well then we'll break there and resume at 10
01:03:57 we'll break there and resume at 10 o'clock on monday thank you
01:04:13 o'clock on monday thank you you