Kensington & Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Evidence - Thursday 6th May 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:25 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from another tmo witness uh mrs teresa brown i think that right mr that's right sir

00:00:36 mr that's right sir may i call mrs brown yes thank you

00:00:53 good morning mr brown i gather your content to make the affirmation and it should be on the screen in front of you yeah right thank you i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i

00:01:06 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now sit down make yourself comfortable

00:01:13 i know you've given evidence to the inquiry before so you are reasonably familiar with the way we do things but just to remind you we shall have a break halfway through the morning but if at

00:01:25 halfway through the morning but if at any stage you feel you'd like to have a break

00:01:28 break some other time will you just indicate and we'll do what we can to help you all right

00:01:33 right good

00:01:36 that's it just take your time right yes mr clear thank you sir good morning would you please confirm your name for the record um my name's teresa brown thank you for coming to give evidence

00:01:47 thank you for coming to give evidence today it's much appreciated um as the chairman said if at any time you would like a break please say so also if any time any of my questions run clear or too long please say so and i'll either repeat

00:01:59 please say so and i'll either repeat them or rephrase them also would you mind keeping your voice up it's solely so the transcribers can capture everything you say okay now you will see your statements

00:02:11 okay now you will see your statements come up on the screen in front of you miss brown you've provided three statements to the inquiry the first one is at tmo triple zero double zero eight nine five

00:02:25 triple zero double zero eight nine five and that's your first statement uh dated the 10th of january 2019 um the second statement can be found at

00:02:35 four tm008422 four zero two and that is dated the fourth of october 2019

00:02:43 2019 and your third and final statement can be found at tmo one double zero four eight 48982 and that was dated the 15th of march

00:02:54 and that was dated the 15th of march 2019

00:02:55 2019 have you read each of those statements recently uh yes and can you confirm that they are all true to the best of your knowledge and belief um yes but um i would add that whilst

00:03:06 um yes but um i would add that whilst i'm preparing for this um today i realized that my statement about how many times i went to the health and safety committee is not accurate we'll come on to that in due course just

00:03:17 we'll come on to that in due course just letting you know that that's the only error that i think thank you and have you discussed your evidence with anyone before coming here today no thank you now the first topic i'd like to discuss with you

00:03:28 to discuss with you is your experience now you were director of housing at the tmo from february 2005 2014 onwards is that right that's correct yeah and if we can go to your first statement

00:03:39 and if we can go to your first statement which is at tm00895 page one at paragraph five

00:03:49 you say that i have professional qualifications in housing and since obtaining my degree i've worked for a number of arms length management organizations and local authorities managing a variety of different housing

00:04:01 managing a variety of different housing services over time including neighborhood concierge cleaning and care taking services first of all what are your qualifications in housing management so i'm a chartered member of the

00:04:13 so i'm a chartered member of the institute of housing i did a five-year um post-degree course

00:04:20 and uh how long have you been working for arms length management organizations so i've i've worked in all local authorities i've been working for them since

00:04:28 since my entire career my whole career has been in the housing field would that be something of the order of 25 years yes and a little more now okay were you in a direct or seen senior

00:04:39 okay were you in a direct or seen senior management position in any other body before you joined the tmo in february 2014. um this was my first director post but i had been in senior management um posts reporting to directors of housing or

00:04:51 housing or for a very long time in my career thank you now the next topic i'd like to discuss

00:04:55 discuss with you is health and safety training now in relation to your personal training in broad terms what health and safety training did you receive before you joined the tmo

00:05:07 you joined the tmo in february 2014 i i i don't remember taking

00:05:11 taking doing any specific um housing um health and safety training before then it doesn't mean that i didn't i just i just don't have a recollection of that can you remember any specific

00:05:22 can you remember any specific fire safety training before you join the tmo

00:05:25 tmo no i'm afraid i can't was there a regular programme of health and safety training

00:05:30 training when you were at the tma um there certainly was from my staff for um the estate services assistance that was very regular i

00:05:41 assistance that was very regular i i think the health and safety training that i took part in was a module that we did online but i think that's the only training that i was involved

00:05:52 that i was involved in and did the training that you you undertook did that include fire safety training

00:05:57 training i'm sorry i can't i can't remember the details of it it was some time ago in relation to your staff can you remember whether they were provided with bespoke fire safety training so the estate services assistance

00:06:09 so the estate services assistance definitely were there was an ongoing programme of training for those staff ran by janice ray and others in the health and safety team to keep them regularly updated making sure they have the skills to do the job

00:06:21 sure they have the skills to do the job and how regular was regularly for these purposes so um so it was at least once a year um but i think

00:06:28 think when when it became apparent that they needed to up a particular skill and particular training um was run for them as i understand it and how frequent was your own training

00:06:39 and how frequent was your own training can you remember the the module the online module so i think that was just a one-off um were you familiar with specific guidance published by uh government and other authorities that

00:06:50 uh government and other authorities that were specific to fire safety uh fire safety risk sleeping accommodation no um do you recall the local government association's guidance on fire safety and purpose-built flats yes

00:07:02 fire safety and purpose-built flats yes definitely that had been the you know the key bit of legislation that our fire safety strategy was pinned on so yeah i was familiar with that in terms of stay you know the stay put strategy

00:07:13 know the stay put strategy and were you familiar with lakers guidance which was entitled housing fire safety guidance no now in relation to the lga guide did you receive any specific

00:07:24 guide did you receive any specific training on that document no

00:07:29 if you hadn't received training on that document how are you aware of its requirements i i don't i don't profess to be a specialist and to know on you know everything about it i

00:07:40 know on you know everything about it i just know that that was that was the framework the best practice that we that we um laid the foundation of our fire safety strategy and it was something i've been familiar with from working in

00:07:51 i've been familiar with from working in other organizations to stay put practice did you ever sit down and read the document in its entirety no i didn't would you refer to it as and when the need arose during the course of your

00:08:02 need arose during the course of your responsibilities no i i i wouldn't have done that

00:08:06 done that and so would your knowledge um when you needed to have regard to it would you be directed to the relevant provision by say for example janice ray no i think um you know

00:08:16 you know janice ray in the health and safety team provided our specialist expertise and knowledge in there i didn't i didn't seek to go and look at it further than that i took the guidance that was provided

00:08:26 provided so there were never any circumstances in which you went out to look at what advice the lga guidance gave on any particular topic no i don't think that would have been in my role particularly to do that i think

00:08:37 my role particularly to do that i think we had experts in the field who had given us advice on that and you know i had i had a big sphere of responsibility and so i think we apportioned our our

00:08:48 and so i think we apportioned our our knowledge and skills accordingly um how would you keep yourself updated about changes to the tm um to general fire safety regulations policies and strategies i think i would get that um that

00:09:00 i think i would get that um that guidance from the health and safety team through the um through the committees that we went to and the meetings that i attended janice and other other people in the organization thank

00:09:12 other people in the organization thank you if we can now turn to the housing team training and if i could ask you to keep your eye on the screen and paragraph six the start of which which is on the

00:09:24 the start of which which is on the screen and it says this in the second sentence my teams were of course required to comply with all health and safety and fire safety standards and requirements and respond as necessary to any actions

00:09:35 and respond as necessary to any actions identified for action but i did not have any role in relation to setting tmo health and safety policy or overall general management of health and safety and fire safety where would your team find details of

00:09:47 where would your team find details of the relevant health and safety and fire safety standards which the tmo had to comply with so they they would have been provided by our health and safety team

00:10:00 our health and safety team yeah and specifically to members of staff while they were doing training

00:10:06 so training would be the principal means by which

00:10:10 by which uh your team were updated about changes in

00:10:13 in health and safety fire safety yes although obviously through the um through our operational health and safety meeting that we had or through the

00:10:21 the um you know the general health and safety meeting that's where we would have got our knowledge and any updates from could i now ask you to turn to the tmos health and safety group policy dated the

00:10:33 policy dated the february 2016 and that can be found at

00:10:40 tm010024402

00:10:45 as you see the date there in the bottom left-hand corner um were you familiar with the substance and requirements of this policy

00:10:55 um yes i think in general principles i don't think i don't remember it being february 2016 but yes in terms of

00:11:07 february 2016 but yes in terms of general principles i was aware of the health and safety policy would you have any cause to refer to the substance during the course of your job um i don't remember specifically

00:11:18 job um i don't remember specifically doing so

00:11:19 doing so in terms of this document now if we could go to the very bottom of page seven in this document and you'll see there the very end

00:11:30 and you'll see there the very end procedures and if we go to the substance which is at the top of page 8 and paragraph 17.1 it says this we have a comprehensive system of procedures which are approved by the

00:11:42 procedures which are approved by the executive team these are regularly reviewed updated and are readily accessed on the intranet under the financial services section to which the majority of staff have direct access now first of all how

00:11:53 have direct access now first of all how did you know if a policy or procedure had been updated

00:11:58 um i knew that there was a programme of updates for policies so um i i think through the health and safety

00:12:10 i think through the health and safety group we would know when a policy was being reviewed and updated um in general in my team i would i would know when policies were being updated but

00:12:18 but i don't think i had cause to look at a lot of the details specifically of health and safety policies during my particular role and would every

00:12:29 my particular role and would every member of your team have access to relevant tmo policies and procedures on health and safety yeah i mean i i know that when i joined i was given a copy of the health and safety policy so i would have seen it

00:12:41 safety policy so i would have seen it and reviewed it at that time now can i turn to the fire safety policy and strategy and when you joined the tmo in february 2014 were you briefed on the substance and requirements of the tmos fire safety

00:12:53 and requirements of the tmos fire safety policy

00:12:55 policy i don't remember that specifically um but i'm i'm sure i would have been in my um induction and can you remember who inducted you i i saw um a variety of people in

00:13:08 i i saw um a variety of people in in the first few weeks of my um time there i think i you know i was um there was a program of me meeting key staff and learning about their roles and responsibilities so i

00:13:19 their roles and responsibilities so i would have picked up things from that induction how did you familiarize yourself with the substance of the fire safety policy um

00:13:31 i don't i don't remember specifically how i did that but i i would have made myself aware of the things that i needed to in terms of my staff's responsibilities so i would have known what the you know

00:13:43 so i would have known what the you know the health and safety responsibilities of the

00:13:45 of the estate services assistance would have been and

00:13:49 been and you know things like our stay put strategy you know i was familiar with those i mean i remember those would you say you were clear on what responsibilities you and your team held

00:14:00 responsibilities you and your team held in relation to fire safety yeah i was clear what the estate services um were teams were doing i was very clear about the role of our customer my

00:14:11 about the role of our customer my customer services team in terms of um ordering what could be health and safety repairs they had a responsibility for ordering but not for carrying them out and we would have had roles in terms of

00:14:24 and we would have had roles in terms of checking them checking repairs and obviously on a wider scale um you know housing professionals deal with all sorts of health and safety issues in terms of residents well-being safeguarding issues so i would have been

00:14:36 safeguarding issues so i would have been very

00:14:36 very familiar with those they would have been key to my whole career in housing the inquiry has been provided with a number of iterations of the fire safety policy

00:14:47 the fire safety policy could i take you to one which is dated november 2013 which can be found at tm00830598

00:14:58 which can be found at tm00830598 sorry that's what i thought you were showing me before when i started to answer those questions yeah but so if i can i take it from your answer that you're familiar with

00:15:09 your answer that you're familiar with this document yes were you familiar with the previous document now you've seen this um yeah yes i think i i think i was i wasn't expecting in the same format but yes the health and safety policy i would

00:15:20 yes the health and safety policy i would have been given when i joined the organization and been aware of it yeah now is the november 2013 version the version to which you referred when the need arose

00:15:31 referred when the need arose um i don't i don't think i took it out and referred to it but that was definitely the the live version and we were obviously involved in reviewing the the um strategy at the time of the fire

00:15:42 the um strategy at the time of the fire and i'd spent a lot of time um you know going through that meetings with um

00:15:47 with um with colleagues in health and safety now could i ask you to turn to a different document which is at

00:15:57 tm00856458

00:16:03 now this is the fire safety policy dated you'll see at the bottom there may 2014 do you recall ever seeing this version of the policy

00:16:17 i don't i don't specifically um i thought it had been reviewed before the 17 version um but i don't specifically remember

00:16:28 um but i don't specifically remember seeing it

00:16:29 seeing it do you recall looking at it differently do you ever recall referring to this version of the policy during the course of your work um no

00:16:42 so having looked at this policy your evidence remains that the 2013 version was to use your words the live version that you used for the fast bulk of time up until the fire i i thought i

00:16:54 fire i i thought i thought it was but i i can't be sure on reflection i i can't be sure now can we look at another policy that was

00:17:04 was produced in relation to fire safety systems

00:17:07 systems it's called the fire protection systems policy and procedure and the version one that i'd like you to look at is dated february 2012 and it can be found at tm00

00:17:25 now were you familiar with that document no and it was issued before i joined the organization i'm not familiar with that and you don't recall referring to it at any stage during your time at the tma

00:17:36 any stage during your time at the tma no i don't know what the context of it are or whether it was something that i you know was a responsibility within my team to refer to no but i don't remember seeing it it looks like it's um specifically

00:17:48 looks like it's um specifically um people in the assets team dealing with the um you know the more the contracts in relation to fire protection systems which wouldn't have been my role but i i don't know because

00:18:01 been my role but i i don't know because i haven't

00:18:01 i haven't haven't looked at it okay now if we can turn to a separate topic which is responsibilities under the health and safety policy which um i'd like to go back to which can be found at tm0100

00:18:17 and page two of that document and paragraph 2.7 now there you see set out the responsibilities of senior management team and managers

00:18:29 team and managers the first bullet point says staff are aware of their health and safety duties and their importance and that they comply with these the fourth point says their newly appointed staff attend induction health

00:18:40 appointed staff attend induction health and safety and where appropriate loan worker training and then finally if we turn over the page sorry at the top

00:18:51 staff have seen and understood information published on health and safety and advice guidance from the health and safety team now do you accept that as a member of the senior management team

00:19:02 the senior management team you were responsible for ensuring that your staff understood their health and safety responsibilities yes how did you ensure that they um that they

00:19:12 they understood and applied those responsibilities so they had specific training related to their jobs so the estate services assistance had specific training

00:19:23 specific training um staff had training in terms of using things like their um commonwealth called identicom you know so personal health and safety training there was lots of training that took place in relation to that

00:19:35 place in relation to that um and that's how we would have um made them aware obviously um my heads of service also attended the the operations health and safety

00:19:47 the operations health and safety committee meetings and the um more corporate health and safety committee so they were familiar with

00:19:54 with um health and safety obligations through those meetings and would have fed those down for their staff now when there were updates to health and safety policy or changes in the law you said earlier that those changes

00:20:06 you said earlier that those changes would be briefed out via the operations health and safety committee would there be any arrangements whereby those changes would be more formally recorded

00:20:13 recorded so that people could see what had changed

00:20:16 changed and how

00:20:20 for most of our policies there was a sign-off process and a um you know either by executive team or

00:20:27 or um policy team so there would have been a sort of a policy launch in in that respect i i can't remember

00:20:35 remember um a specific one in terms of health and safety but um i i remember the ones that i did within my team so i can talk to you about how

00:20:43 about how i would have done that if that's helpful how would you have done that so so for example we would have we would have

00:20:49 have um we would have probably worked on the development of policy as as um as a team really so that people were engaged from the beginning so they would have been aware of the development of a policy

00:21:01 development of a policy and then we would have completed that policy had it signed off and then we would have done team training we'd done briefings through our my head of service meeting and then

00:21:12 our my head of service meeting and then through our team meetings and that would have cascaded down sometimes we did specific training across the organization for things like the introduction of our

00:21:23 the introduction of our crm system so there'd be corporate training as well so um various ways in which we would do that we had an internal housing magazine that went round to all staff so

00:21:35 magazine that went round to all staff so that would highlight changes and also i was member of smt group which was the senior management team sat below the executive team and therefore we would um we would share um information across

00:21:48 um we would share um information across the senior managers in terms of what policies were coming live and talk to that team about them thank you now looking at the obligations in relation to training of

00:21:59 training of new employees would new employees be given any

00:22:02 given any specific training on fire safety so i i think it depends what their what their role would be so there would be an induction for staff and

00:22:10 and and you know i'm sure as part of that they would have spent some time with the health and safety um team um getting an induction from them and obviously my managers would have talked

00:22:21 obviously my managers would have talked through their any new staff's responsibility in terms of that so if we had a new esa there would be a you know a comprehensive induction to make sure that they knew how to do their job and the skills

00:22:33 how to do their job and the skills needed could i pick up that point in terms of esa's in particular the fire safety training provided to essays and if we could go stay within

00:22:45 apologies go back to the health and safety policy which is at tm01024402 and page six within that document

00:22:57 and if we go to paragraph 10.2

00:23:01 which says fire marshal training is conducted on an annual basis the state staff sheltered housing officers and other staff who regularly visit blocks and who are required to carry out inspections as part of their work are

00:23:12 inspections as part of their work are also trained in fire safety and if we can turn to a separate document bearing that in mind which is at tmo

00:23:19 at tmo double zero eight three two 724

00:23:32 now this is the tmo fire safety strategy from 2017 i think the data's in the bottom right hand corner actually it may well be at the end but it's from 2017

00:23:43 it's from 2017 and if we turn to page 14 within this document

00:23:49 we see at uh section 21 at the very bottom

00:23:52 bottom of the page under the heading fire safety training for tmo staff it says this to increase knowledge awareness and promote competence amongst staff the tmo requires all staff to complete

00:24:03 complete a comprehensive online fire safety training course additionally practical training sessions on the use of fire extinguishers are run annually for fire marshals estate staff sheltered housing officers and other relevant staff

00:24:15 relevant staff further staff who are required to undertake regular communal inspections are also given additional more specialized training to cover fire safety systems and features in residential blocks stay put strategy

00:24:27 in residential blocks stay put strategy communal storage issues other issues highlighted by the fras etc to ensure they are clear on what to escalate this training is also provided annually with ongoing refresher training at team meetings and

00:24:38 refresher training at team meetings and on-site briefings with the health and safety team and the fire consultant can you help as to whether all your staff

00:24:46 staff have completed their online fire safety training

00:24:50 training at the date of the fire um i i won't be able to confirm that for the for the whole organisation um i know that there wasn't an online program but i'm i'm not sure who would

00:25:02 program but i'm i'm not sure who would have

00:25:03 have completed that how would you ensure on an annual basis that your staff had completed the courses they were required to complete i i'm very confident that the esa's had

00:25:14 i i'm very confident that the esa's had a regular programme of training that was organized by um janice wayne the health and safety team you know i think that's well documented

00:25:25 you know i think that's well documented that there was ongoing training with them

00:25:27 them specifically and did you ever review the substance of that training to ensure that it

00:25:32 that it matched what you were expecting to be provided to your esas no i i personally didn't and i think that my heads of service heads of service whom who managed who were below me would have

00:25:45 who managed who were below me would have probably gone through that with janice but actually janice would have been you know the best place person to decide what was in that training and you know would have the skills for that um

00:25:56 that um i'm sure there would be engagement with the team leaders below the heads of service in in that training as well now the strategy we've looked at that staff who undertake regular communal

00:26:07 staff who undertake regular communal inspections were given additional specialized training to cover fire safety systems and features um before the 2017 staff sorry before the 2017 fire safety policy

00:26:18 sorry before the 2017 fire safety policy was finalized was it your understanding that esa's were required to carry out fire safety training on an annual basis um it was my understanding that they had definitely had

00:26:29 definitely had um a significant amount of training over the years since i'd been there i i definitely knew that it was wasn't just in fire safety it was in a range of things relevant to their

00:26:40 in a range of things relevant to their job

00:26:41 job looking back at what we paragraph 21 which we've just looked at of the fire safety strategy in 2017 did those provisions codify existing practice

00:26:51 practice or did they provide for additional oh no i think they were existing practice i i've definitely you know it was definitely my um my understanding that my teams have been trending regular training to keep them

00:27:04 trending regular training to keep them refreshed we had new recruits all the time as well um quite a turnover when i first joined of the

00:27:10 of the esa's and i knew that you know they were provided with training at that time looking at the point slightly differently before the fire did anyone raise any concerns with you about the competence of esa's to carry out

00:27:22 competence of esa's to carry out inspections regular comment inspections no i don't think no i don't think so no now if we could turn to a separate document which is tmo double zero 841.010

00:27:40 now as the title indicates these are minutes of the tmo health and safety committee meeting on the 31st of july 2015

00:27:47 2015 we can see from the list of attendees that

00:27:51 that you didn't attend but maria sharples the head of neighborhood management south did first of all who decided attendance of these meetings

00:28:02 decided attendance of these meetings so this was um this was a time before um before barbara joined her oh no it was barbara i um i'm not sure

00:28:13 oh no it was barbara i um i'm not sure who decided attendance at those i know that they were re-refreshed there was a refresh when barbara took over i can't remember who decided

00:28:27 did you ask maria sharples to attend on your behalf was she your representative um yes i she definitely reported to me so yes she would have been and would she

00:28:39 so yes she would have been and would she report back to you after each and every meeting

00:28:42 meeting um yeah she would report back to me and i

00:28:45 i i believe i was copied into all these emails there's also another member of my staff there state services team leader who was attending this i know that we refreshed the membership this this this grew over time to get

00:28:57 this this this grew over time to get this right

00:29:00 and were you confident that you were given full and accurate reports back as to what points of concern had been discussed in this forum um yes i can't remember um at this particular time whether the

00:29:12 at this particular time whether the parallel operations meeting was still going ahead um but there was definitely a group one that sasha run um that i would have attended and then later on i i obviously became included in the health and safety

00:29:25 became included in the health and safety committee meetings and felt it was important to and i did go along to those now at the start of your evidence you said that you wish to correct the number of those meetings that you attended would now be the right opportunity for

00:29:37 would now be the right opportunity for you to make the correction yes and i can only apologize that i think for when i first wrote my statement i had limits limited access to documents and i i just seemed to and thought that that's

00:29:49 just seemed to and thought that that's what i've done but you know when i reviewed more documents in preparation for this i you know jogged my memory i had been to all mostly all the operations were meetings

00:30:00 meetings if i hadn't been on leave and there was a gap in me um attending the main health and safety committee i think and then i you know i i got myself

00:30:12 and then i you know i i got myself involved in that but i did always have representatives from my team on that meeting maria particularly and then martin who covered from maria i think that's how i got a bit confused i'm sorry when was there that gap mrs

00:30:24 i'm sorry when was there that gap mrs brown

00:30:25 brown i think it was probably when this um when it changed from anthony managing it to to the

00:30:32 to to the um to barbara taking over i think it was in the initial setup of the the new style meeting so early-ish 2015. early yeah okay but i apologize

00:30:45 okay but i apologize yeah i i know i went to quite a few over a period of time if i wasn't on leave and during that gap you felt because of your representatives attending that you

00:30:56 your representatives attending that you had

00:30:56 had sufficient knowledge of the issues that were being discussed is that a first summary of your evidence yes yes and definitely and this wasn't obviously the only opportunity to discuss it we would have talked about

00:31:07 discuss it we would have talked about you know general health and safety things in various other forums so yeah now if we can turn to page five within this document and in particular agenda item 10.4

00:31:19 agenda item 10.4 and you'll see that under the heading training it says this there is limited resources available for training and we have therefore been asked to come up with a program of essential training that is required for the year were you

00:31:31 that is required for the year were you aware that there were limited resources available for training um well i think in any organization there are limited resources and i think

00:31:42 there are limited resources and i think you know we did we did a lot of online training which was a move you know a move to go down the the root of that

00:31:49 of that but i believe that where there was essential training such as the esa training that that continued had the tmo cut back on training um due to cost

00:32:00 tmo cut back on training um due to cost considerations um

00:32:05 it's certainly not my recollection that we were particularly short of of training we did a management development program obviously health and safety training went on during my time

00:32:16 went on during my time at the organization we reviewed a lot of our policies and we provided training perhaps in-house instead of externally on our policies and development so there

00:32:27 on our policies and development so there was certainly a lot um what i thought was quite a you know a large-scale training program going on for for my staff that's not quite an answer to my question apologies miss brown my

00:32:38 question apologies miss brown my question was had the tmo cut back on training due to cost considerations um it well it says it says that we were thinking about it there but i can't remember

00:32:50 there but i can't remember there not being sufficient training for people to do their jobs is what i think i'm saying but more than that i can't i can't comment just on that point you made it you described training as

00:33:01 made it you described training as essential training for esas was there any non-essential training for esa's that was cut for any reason during your time as director of housing i don't remember any

00:33:15 so a first summary of your evidence is that at no time when you're director of housing did you have any concern about the adequacy of training providing to your provided to your staff is that fair yes

00:33:27 provided to your staff is that fair yes thank you now we cannot find a record of health and safety training in 2015 for esas was there training for esa's on health and safety in 2015.

00:33:40 health and safety in 2015. um i can't i would have thought there would

00:33:44 would be some sort of training um for the reasons that i've described previously but i you know i couldn't tell you dates unfortunately um can i put the point more directly are

00:33:56 um can i put the point more directly are you in a position to confirm that training was provided on health and safety to your esa's in 2015. um i can't confirm categorically but i you know my recollection from

00:34:08 but i you know my recollection from all the health and safety meetings that were going on was that there was um an ongoing programme so it would be my expectation that there was some

00:34:19 was some can i now turn to training as discussed in health and safety committee meetings and could i ask you to go back to your first statement is it tmo triple zero double zero eight nine

00:34:32 triple zero double zero eight nine five

00:34:34 five and page four

00:34:38 and paragraph 22 where you say this in the opening sentence yeah my team was represented at health and safety meetings organized by janice ray

00:34:48 ray martin barth was the regular attender on my behalf but i attended those meetings after he left um why did martin barr represent you rather than you attending yourself

00:34:57 yourself so this is the this goes back to my correction earlier um i you know this is there's a paragraph in this and my previous statement that says that

00:35:08 statement that says that um i know that um martin covered for maria for a period of time when she was on leave and i think i got a little bit confused about it but um martin and maria

00:35:22 um martin and maria and myself quite regularly attended those health and safety meetings and i apologize for confusion i caused in my statement because i think we think you first attended health and safety meetings july 2015.

00:35:33 meetings july 2015. does that sound about right to you um i can't be sure of the exact date but i know it's i know it's recorded in the minute so i know if you if you say i imagine that's correct but

00:35:45 if you say i imagine that's correct but as i say i did go to the operational health and safety meetings that took place either alongside or before that now going back to mr bart did he report

00:35:56 now going back to mr bart did he report you promptly about the substance of the discussions in these meetings um yes any anyone who is attending if i wasn't there would have reported back to me i do remember having

00:36:08 back to me i do remember having discussions with maria after health and safety meetings and um i would get the minutes would it be in conversations or would it be by email that you'd be updated probably conversations i talked

00:36:20 probably conversations i talked regularly to my staff um and in one to one so it may have just been a conversation and can i take it from that that before meetings you discuss items of relevant or interest to your

00:36:31 items of relevant or interest to your department with your representative at this meeting yeah there would obviously be a certain amount of preparation before a meeting if we had to provide some information we'd talk about issues and we would talk about um

00:36:44 issues and we would talk about um yeah we talk about things that were likely to come up and things that we needed to report can we turn now to tmo double zero eight four three six double eight

00:36:55 six double eight now if we can turn to page five and in particular agenda item 6.5 it says this pm presumably peter madison

00:37:06 it says this pm presumably peter madison queried how we put the fire strategy into practice he gave an example of emergency lighting at grenfell tower which had been taken down by contractors but not reinstated and this was not picked up for several days despite a number of staff and

00:37:18 days despite a number of staff and contracted agents being on site in the interim

00:37:20 interim he emphasized the need for comprehensive training for all staff who visit site bm presumably barbara matthews acknowledged the need for a health and safety training program not confined to fire safety to be

00:37:31 not confined to fire safety to be implemented were you aware at the time that staff had not identified an issue with emergency lighting at grenfell um yeah i don't think i did but he i don't think i

00:37:42 don't think i i was but um it depends when the inspection had taken place because we're talking a few days

00:37:49 few days several days here um so it was a weekly and a monthly inspection um i'm i'm can't say that i remember this beforehand

00:38:01 beforehand and did mr madison discuss emergency lighting with you in relation to grenfell at any time um it would have been discussed in meetings i i don't specifically remember

00:38:12 i i don't specifically remember but then um he might not necessarily have done so do you remember whether anyone discussed implementation the fire safety strategy with you

00:38:21 with you and whether it could be implemented

00:38:25 at this time at a general level all of the measures

00:38:30 um not specifically but i was involved in discussions that were going on as that strategy developed that did

00:38:41 as that strategy developed that did as part of that did either barbara matthews or peter madison raise concerns with you

00:38:45 with you about the need for a health and safety training program um this is specific to to lighting isn't it emergency lighting but flowing from that i'm thinking in

00:38:56 but flowing from that i'm thinking in particular the the last bit of the quotation at 6.5 bm barbara matthews acknowledged the need for a health and safety training program not confined to fire safety to be implemented so i know that there was some emergency

00:39:07 so i know that there was some emergency lighting training that was specific emergency lighting training that was run for resas um i can't be accurate on the timing of that but maybe that was after

00:39:19 timing of that but maybe that was after this

00:39:21 this did either barbara matthews or peter madison raise any concerns with you at this time or afterwards about the need for a health and safety training program

00:39:31 program to be improved or altered i i don't remember that specifically at the time did you have any concerns about the need for or the adequacy of fire safety training

00:39:43 fire safety training no i didn't have any concerns well just because my experience had been that the staff were getting fairly regular training on it no

00:39:54 getting fairly regular training on it no you didn't attend the meeting the minutes of which we're considering but having read the minutes uh did it prompt you to examine what fire safety training your esas had been provided can you remember that well i think that there was some i think

00:40:07 i think that there was some i think there was some further training on on the lighting issue i know there was specific training on that but nothing beyond that that you recall

00:40:19 well i suppose it depends what the need for a health and safety program was whether it was things that were in addition to the training that my staff were already receiving

00:40:30 staff were already receiving so do you remember asking that question at the time when you received or after you received the minutes i don't i don't remember

00:40:38 remember um could i turn to a separate document now tmo10012670 which should be minutes of a meeting of the tmo health and safety committee on the 19th of january 2016.

00:40:58 i wasn't there you weren't there but if we go to

00:41:02 we go to mr barr was oh sorry mr bar passed on apologies

00:41:07 apologies but it's minuted at item 1.1 sorry 1.11. if we could expand that

00:41:18 that mb presumably martin barr had agreed to look at procedures for reviewing insight reports clarifying what is outstanding and what priority these have and acknowledge the need to ensure

00:41:29 need to ensure there is an effective escalation procedure

00:41:32 procedure for esa's reporting health and safety issues

00:41:35 issues mb had confirmed that he would be meeting with olivia hutchison on the 20th of january with gw presumably graham webb uh the following week to discuss this he will then produce a draft escalation

00:41:46 he will then produce a draft escalation procedure sj presumably sasha jevons asked for clarification on time scale jw janice ray to request mb aims to bring draft to next meeting

00:41:58 aims to bring draft to next meeting did mr barr report to you that there was a need for an escalation procedure in relation to health and safety issues for esa's i was aware that that was an issue

00:42:09 issue particularly in respect of repairs did he produce any escalation procedure i i don't remember specifically but i do remember that

00:42:18 that you know measures were put in place for esa's to have an opportunity to escalate can you remember whether those arrangements were formalized into a document or not

00:42:29 document or not um i don't remember a specific document but i do remember things such as there being um a repairs surgery put in place so um

00:42:40 a repairs surgery put in place so um rd our repairs internal repairs direct thank you um service i had surgeries definitely with the esa so they have an opportunity to um review any outstanding

00:42:53 opportunity to um review any outstanding communal repairs and to chase them with them because i knew that that was a concern

00:42:57 concern of the esa's when were those surgeries implemented um i can't remember the specific

00:43:08 um i can't remember the specific date but i do remember having a discussion with the esa's as well about it so how regularly do the surgeries take place

00:43:21 i don't know whether fortnightly or monthly i i can't remember but but i think it was fairly frequently and obviously this isn't the only opportunity for people um that they

00:43:32 opportunity for people um that they weren't the only opportunity for people to escalate um matters uh who convened these surgeries can you remember i think it was i don't know whether it

00:43:44 i think it was i don't know whether it was at martin's level who would have been the esa team leader and it would be in the equivalent person in our in repairs direct and they would have i think was it sam hart i think at the time

00:43:55 time i think he was working on that with them you mentioned other opportunities for escalation escalation what were those opportunities so the esa's could escalate matters to their line manager

00:44:06 their line manager um who would have been the esl es a team leader um and then obviously there was a head of service around above that and then my post

00:44:17 above that and then my post i had regular conversations with um graham webb the managing director of repairs direct so if there were issues i could go and talk to him about them

00:44:28 talk to him about them how regular was regular of those conversations with mr webb graham and i we we talk on a regular basis about all sorts of matters there was a

00:44:36 was a you know a connection between the services that we provided had the esa's themselves been concerned about repairs the rate of repairs

00:44:48 about repairs the rate of repairs what was needed to be done in the communal areas and raise them with you yes they had i do remember attending a um

00:44:55 um i used to go to the esa team meetings occasionally not regularly but um i do remember going to one of those meetings specifically to talk about to talk about this issue with

00:45:07 talk about to talk about this issue with them

00:45:08 them and their concerns now can i now turn to a separate topic which is oversight of the estate services team and if i could ask you to turn to your statement and it's tm00842402

00:45:27 so it's your second statement and at paragraph 15 at page three

00:45:36 you say and it's at the bottom of the page you say this in respect to the esa's they reported directly to the state services team leaders who in turn reported to the heads of neighborhood services who would ensure that they were carrying out inspections completion

00:45:47 completion i would monitor the est esa team's performance at a more strategic level by reviewing performance information in doing so i was able to review kpis such the number of inspections carried out as a percentage

00:45:58 a percentage of those due the percentage of health and safety weekly monthly tasks complete in target and the number of communal repairs reported by esa's we also monitored the number of callbacks made to the cleaning service

00:46:09 callbacks made to the cleaning service while only monitored the esa performance at a strategic level the team leaders had more detailed performance information available to them that they used as a management tool first of all who provided reports on compliance with kpis for you

00:46:21 reports on compliance with kpis for you to review

00:46:22 to review so there was a whole performance team that did that there was a an extensive network of performance reports um siobhan bowman was the person i had most contact with

00:46:33 was the person i had most contact with in that respect and she reported into um

00:46:38 um sorry i can't remember her name um i thought they found that yes and how often would you review the performance reports

00:46:48 reports oh monthly i would review them monthly and the team leaders had access to insight reports um so they could

00:47:00 insight reports um so they could so they would have we i remember specifically to the esa's they had weekly performance reports and then as part of our overarching crm development we introduce performance and

00:47:13 development we introduce performance and lots of performance monitoring as a part of that in terms of the workflows so that managers have access to you know to print off almost online performance every day

00:47:25 almost online performance every day when they needed to so there was an extensive network of performance information available to us thank you could we turn to tm00850808

00:47:36 thank you could we turn to tm00850808 and these are minutes of the monthly housing team meeting and a meeting on the 31st of march 2014. and as you see you are present and if we turn to page 4

00:47:47 turn to page 4 and the gender item 11.1 at the bottom tb asked if all fire safety check actions were completed dd to speak to claire janus about which

00:47:59 to speak to claire janus about which actions have been completed so they can be closed down on w2 now if janice's janice ray was claire claire williams

00:48:11 i imagine so yes did your team check with janice ray or claire williams every time you or they wanted to check if an action had been completed sorry say thank you did your team check

00:48:24 sorry say thank you did your team check with

00:48:25 with either janice or claire every time they wanted to know whether a particular action had been completed on no they they would have they would have had their own access to that information

00:48:36 their own access to that information so the fire risk um the virus actions would be delegated to my teams there was a sort of a formal printout of those um w-2 process so the

00:48:49 of those um w-2 process so the the managers would have had information to you know they would have an awareness of what that action was and be able to monitor it before someone came to ask them if they'd done it

00:49:00 came to ask them if they'd done it and how would you monitor yourself that fire safety actions will be completed on time

00:49:07 time and satisfactorily by your team so um how would i do that so we would it would be in occasions

00:49:18 so we would it would be in occasions like this i mean we would obviously i attended i attended the fire sorry the health and safety committees where performance information was

00:49:29 was raised at a higher level but i was aware of the

00:49:33 of the the detailed monitoring that went on below that and i do remember you know where i had concerns talking specifically to the heads of service i remember conversations with maria at one point so

00:49:45 conversations with maria at one point so i could drill into the detail of it with staff where i needed to so was the source of your information via the health and safety committee alone no i don't think it was it was

00:49:56 alone no i don't think it was it was probably mainly there because of the position that i had in the various other tasks that i needed to do i didn't get involved in the detailed monitoring you know of of all actions but i certainly could

00:50:07 of of all actions but i certainly could if i was concerned about anything would you yourself interrogate w-2 no i wouldn't do that why not um because i had the staff

00:50:20 um because i had the staff who were working very closely with the health and safety team and and could could do that i didn't feel that there was a need for me to do it specifically on a regular basis

00:50:31 to do it specifically on a regular basis if there were concerns about the adequacy of completion of fire safety actions

00:50:35 actions or that they weren't being completed on time how would that be brought to your attention by your staff so um

00:50:46 i mean they would just talk to me about it either as and when they had to or in a in a in to one or you know they would talk to me about it

00:50:57 about it as a health and safety committee meeting has come up various ways really i said earlier i do remember talking to maria about specific things and i think that was

00:51:06 that was well sorry i don't need to answer was maria sharples your point person in relation to these matters it depended where there was an issue really so fire safety were concerned well

00:51:17 so fire safety were concerned well so i had two heads of service who had two

00:51:20 two um estate services team leaders reporting to them so it could be whoever had you know who was relevant to talk to at the time depending on the issue could we now turn to a separate uh set

00:51:33 could we now turn to a separate uh set of minutes tmo double 851809 and these are minutes from the housing monthly team meeting on the 26th of august 2014

00:51:45 august 2014 and if we turn to agenda item 1.7

00:51:53 we see item 413 ms so presumably maria sharples

00:51:58 sharples has spoken to a b about esa workloads and

00:52:01 and ms to follow up with am now if ms is maria sharples who were a b and a m i'm not sure could we just go back to the top and have a look at that

00:52:15 i'm not sure that helps much no unfortunately it doesn't doesn't would a b b

00:52:18 b b adrian bowman it could be yes a.m can you remember now who that might be can we go back to the minute and see if one

00:52:26 one jokes for me a.m so it's item 1.7 we're concerned with yeah

00:52:33 yeah allocated to maria sharp oh was that was it no wouldn't have been i'm sorry i i can't remember now um

00:52:44 now um do you know why maria sharples had spoken to ab about esa workloads

00:52:55 i i do i don't know specifically i do know that there was a period of time in the south of the borough where um early on um where we

00:53:07 um early on um where we were down a few posts um we had the esa department yeah we had to we had to do some recruitment down there um so it may have been this may have

00:53:18 um so it may have been this may have been that relevant time can you remember any other instances when concerns were expressed to you about esa's workload um i don't i don't remember specifically

00:53:31 um i don't i don't remember specifically but i do remember obviously they had important tasks to do and

00:53:35 and um one of the things that we introduced in the time that i was there was to have a floating esa to help cover across the borough to fill gaps where somebody may be on leave

00:53:46 fill gaps where somebody may be on leave to make sure that we got our regular inspections done so

00:53:52 that's something we implemented can you recall whether neighborhood managers reported any issues about the uh adequacy of inspections by esa's to you or your service team leaders whether

00:54:06 or your service team leaders whether who did neighborhood managers remember specifically neighborhood managers no anyone else i do remember in health and safety meetings um there was an occasion i

00:54:17 meetings um there was an occasion i can't remember the name of the person who said

00:54:21 who said um they're not picking up some specific issue and they raised it at the health and safety meeting i do remember that can you remember the specifics of the issue they weren't um

00:54:33 issue they weren't um was it something to do with nosings on the floors or um pavements nothing safety related to the best of your recollection

00:54:45 your recollection no but i i do remember saying to him please you know raise it with the team leaders if you've got any concerns and they can

00:54:51 they can deal with that now can we turn to uh the question of fra actions and if i could ask

00:54:58 could ask you to turn back to your second statement which is at tm00842402 and paragraph six on page two

00:55:10 and paragraph six on page two where you say this the tmo had a fire risk assessment program overseen by the health and safety team janice ray the health and safety facilities manager would review the actions arising from these fire risk assessments

00:55:21 assessments and assign relevant actions to the teams i managed the team managers and janice ray would then work together to ensure that the actions were completed and closed down in a timely manner overall performance in relation to the

00:55:32 overall performance in relation to the completion of these actions was reviewed at health and safety committee meetings first of all what fra actions were assigned to your team what types of actions

00:55:44 sorry so it would have been things like um

00:55:53 rubbish being left in communal area bikes and communal area

00:56:00 um uh we did have quite an issue with communal door locks in the south of borough on street properties um that was an issue for a while

00:56:14 um that was an issue for a while um those types of things and it'll be communal repairs completed or they had quite a role in chasing communal repairs or making sure that they were

00:56:24 they were completed so they remained open as actions until they were completed and which managers oversaw completion of actions uh arising out of fras which had

00:56:35 actions uh arising out of fras which had been assigned to your team so it would be um the main responsibility would be with the well the main body of the works i say would have been with the esa team leaders so that would have been

00:56:47 esa team leaders so that would have been louise at one point um martin barr and then obviously they reported into maria okay just going back to

00:56:59 maria okay just going back to am in the previous minutes does andy marshall ring a bell oh he was repairs direct so would am of likely have been andy it might have been yes okay

00:57:10 it might have been yes okay now um did you monitor yourself uh progress

00:57:14 progress in actioning fra that matters so i think as i've said before yes i would have done that in the overall health and safety committee i would have raised in team meetings have

00:57:25 would have raised in team meetings have we seen that i did and it and when there was an issue i would have spoken to the relevant member of staff about that but i didn't get involved in the absolute detail of it

00:57:36 the absolute detail of it all the time so again you wouldn't you wouldn't have interrogated w-2 or any other database available no i had very competent staff working for me i trusted them to do the job that was assigned to them and i didn't feel that

00:57:48 assigned to them and i didn't feel that there was a need to do that on a daily basis could we turn to tm00861051

00:58:04 now we see the email in the bottom half of that page is from peter madison to you

00:58:10 you alex bosman and graeme webb sent on the 21st of october 2016 at 16 40. uh peter madison attacks results of carl stokes's pre-inspection of grenfell

00:58:21 carl stokes's pre-inspection of grenfell barrington and colville before an lfb audit and the fourth sentence of that email mr madison said this going forward i've agreed with janus that representatives from a

00:58:33 janus that representatives from a rd repairs direct housing management will be invited to attend inspections with carl stokes and adrian this will help ensure that there is a clear and shared understanding of standards and actions required

00:58:44 standards and actions required using carlin adrian's expertise to raise awareness with our staff it will also be a good way of ensuring that the ownership of actions is pushed down to the right level i also hope help sorry i also hope that

00:58:56 i also hope help sorry i also hope that it will help develop a better understanding of responsibilities for each team and improve the communication when matters need escalation now was there a lack of coordination between your department

00:59:07 your department repairs direct and assets and regeneration about how best to deal with fire safety related repairs i don't think there was a lack of coordination there was obviously an

00:59:18 coordination there was obviously an interdependent ship about it that's the right word um mr madison here seems to be suggesting there was a need for better clearer understanding would you accept that first of all um

00:59:34 oh i mean undoubtedly there's always ways to improve things yes can you recall any specific prompt or concern that mr madison expressed to you previously

00:59:45 previously about closing down fra related actions that may have been underlying this email um sorry let me just you want to refresh your memory yes

00:59:58 please

01:00:15 sorry did you show me something before about that there was a concern related to this i was just sorry slightly lost well i think clearly

01:00:23 clearly mr mr madison has sent this email fourth sentence going forward i have agreed with janice that representatives from a

01:00:31 from a r assets and regeneration rd repairs direct housing management will be invited to attend inspections with carl stokes

01:00:37 stokes and adrian this will help ensure that there is a clear and shared understanding of standards and actions required using carl nadrian's expertise to raise awareness with our staff now on reading that email there appears

01:00:50 now on reading that email there appears to have been a concern that a clearer and more broadly shared understanding of standards and actions appears to be required now my question is is that a fair reading of that email

01:01:02 is that a fair reading of that email well i think i think things will have you know change over time expectations change over time about

01:01:08 about what people want to see in inspections so

01:01:11 so um i think it's fair to say that there's always a need to refresh and i know that adrian had a role um he worked in the health and safety team he had a role in

01:01:22 team he had a role in his own health and safety audits that he did and

01:01:25 did and you know there was a suggestion made that

01:01:29 that esa's should attend those i think it's a a question of you know raising everybody's expertise um

01:01:36 um which is a good thing so is it fair to summarize your evidence this way that you don't recall any specific particular concern on mr madison's part about understanding

01:01:48 on mr madison's part about understanding of

01:01:49 of what was required in relation to um actioning fra action points well there must be a context that made him concerned at this so i'm not i'm not quite sure about that but do you

01:02:00 quite sure about that but do you can you remember it on the face of this ema can you remember anything's particular i'm sorry i can't okay come recognize the address and let's see if we go further through

01:02:12 and let's see if we go further through the minutes whether there's anything which uh occurs and if we go to tm00840 triple seven

01:02:27 now these are minutes from the health and safety committee meeting on the 19th of january 2017 you gave your apologies you see their third on the list of apologies um first of all did you

01:02:39 apologies um first of all did you receive

01:02:40 receive and read these minutes after the meeting um i would have received them mine think i would have read them there's an element of doubt in that last

01:02:52 there's an element of doubt in that last response routinely read minutes that were sent to you for meetings which you had

01:02:55 had usually and at least before the next one yeah

01:02:59 yeah now if we go to page two of these minutes and agenda item 4.0 you'll see the heading there at the bottom page fire safety and fire risk assessments update

01:03:10 assessments update and it says fra actions bm barbara matthews raised concern that there were a large number of actions that have now been outstanding for over 12 months and emphasized the importance of clearing these as a matter

01:03:21 importance of clearing these as a matter of urgency barbara matthews requested that each team with outstanding actions that fall into this category should prepare a written report for the next meeting setting out the detail of

01:03:32 next meeting setting out the detail of each action an explanation of what steps have been taken to progress these when each will be fully completed was your team one of those who were required to provide a written report

01:03:43 required to provide a written report yeah there would have been there would have been um outstanding actions in my team i think particularly in relation to um the issue with these street properties and the

01:03:54 properties and the locks which took a long time to resolve now if we can drill down into the detail if we turn to tm01015963

01:04:10 now you'll see in the top right corner this is called paper four this was presented at this meeting in january 2017. it's subtitled fra's current progress with completion of actions 12th of

01:04:22 with completion of actions 12th of january 2017. if we look in the far left hand column six

01:04:28 six down there's neighborhood management and reading from left to right it shows that there are 99 outstanding fra actions and 22 partially complete actions allocated

01:04:41 partially complete actions allocated to neighborhood management and if we scroll down to the second page again looking at the left hand side neighborhood management and reading across

01:04:52 across at 20 of the outstanding actions were four to six months old 40 were seven to 12 months old and three were over 12 months now i

01:05:04 and three were over 12 months now i realize it's difficult given the time that has passed but can you remember beyond the general indication you've already given what those actions were okay so so a lot

01:05:15 what those actions were okay so so a lot of the actions that were assigned to my team were dependent on somebody else doing something so for example the the issue with the locks in the south of the borough was dependent on

01:05:27 the borough was dependent on asset and regeneration team um alex in particular helping us with getting a contract for those works and that did take a long time and i think that that accounted for

01:05:40 time and i think that that accounted for the biggest amount of um outs i'm not saying that properly the outstanding action the longest period for

01:05:49 for outstanding actions that was a big bulk of the work and i think there was also an issue with garage doors where there was a contract so in those circumstances sometimes it did take you know far too long and i

01:06:00 did take you know far too long and i i think that was a subject of you know maria's and i discussion around around that who was responsible for preparing the written report that barbara matthews said and directed to directed be provided

01:06:13 and directed to directed be provided i said i i i don't remember the detail of that unfortunately it's one of the things that just i don't we i'm sure we would have provided it if we were asked to do it but i don't remember the detail of that

01:06:25 but i don't remember the detail of that can you remember any specific action which you took or you required to be taken to reduce the number of outstanding actions well i mean we would have worked if

01:06:36 well i mean we would have worked if the action was an interdependency with another team we would have worked very hard with them to get their bit of work completed so that we could finish our part so i know that that would have happened

01:06:47 that would have happened put crudely mrs brown how did you crack the whip or what steps did you take to ensure that others were cracking the whip with other departments upon whom you depended to complete these actions well there was a lot a lot of

01:06:58 well there was a lot a lot of conversation between us to try and get things resolved so you know

01:07:03 know um i i know that maria was doing that in terms of the the issues

01:07:10 issues excuse me with the talk sorry um

01:07:17 it may help if we go into the next set of minutes on the 10th of march 2017 and they can be found at tm01046715

01:07:33 there we go again titled paper four in the top right hand corner subtitled fra's current progress with completion of actions this time dated 10th of march 2017 and we see again neighborhood management

01:07:44 and we see again neighborhood management far left side reading across the numbers then outstanding and if we scroll down to the next page we then see the

01:07:56 the next page we then see the age of the outstanding actions and if we go to the final and third page we see in the bottom box under neighborhood management

01:08:07 neighborhood management south some explanation uh behind yeah the outstanding actions now i'll let you just quickly refresh your memory reading those four bullet points

01:08:18 those four bullet points yeah so this looks like an update from maria and does do those four bullet points uh ring true to you as to the reasons for the outstanding fra actions

01:08:30 outstanding fra actions so you've got the non-standard locks in the court second point downs related to what i've just talked about third one contingent upon other department's actions

01:08:41 other department's actions and then a specific issue to chesterton square

01:08:48 right so that would have been asking for specific guidance probably the health and safety team about how to go about that yeah so excuse me yeah okay

01:08:59 excuse me yeah okay and you're satisfied that reflected your understanding at the time i don't remember this at the time but it relates to how you know what i've described about the doors and

01:09:10 described about the doors and it would make sense that that would be maria doing that update um so yeah and she would have had a grip of the necessary detail in order to give a fair and accurate update yes absolutely she would have had she

01:09:22 yes absolutely she would have had she would have had her own performance information from from janice and she would have had the detail of the fras that had been assigned she would have had access to you know w-2 and the and the

01:09:33 you know w-2 and the and the spreadsheets that have been available if we can now turn to tm0084218 and this is a further paper presented at the health and safety meeting on the

01:09:44 the health and safety meeting on the 13th of june 2017.

01:09:49 2017. and again same format you see the number of outstanding actions that are coming down if we turn over the page

01:10:01 we can see that in the far right hand column

01:10:04 column yeah 27 actions are now in the 12 months plus

01:10:07 plus category can you remember now what those outstanding actions were i can't but what i can tell you is that there was a very very detailed spreadsheet and exchange of

01:10:20 detailed spreadsheet and exchange of information um that was exchanged between my teams in terms of what was outstanding where we are where we were with it and whether it was partially or

01:10:31 and whether it was partially or completed or not and trying to think what they were if you can't remember don't worry but with the reasons for outstanding actions would they have been

01:10:42 outstanding actions would they have been broadly similar to the reasons why previous actions were outstanding yes if we hadn't solved the problem then they would go on i mean if it was you know a repair that needed a contract behind it or

01:10:54 a contract behind it or um you know they would go on until that other matter was resolved most of our fra actions were things that we could deal with fairly swiftly um ourselves and you know check that

01:11:05 um ourselves and you know check that rubbish had been removed or checker repair to completion but there were some more complicated things i'm not saying that's the only reason at any point there will always be some fras outstanding just because of the nature

01:11:17 outstanding just because of the nature of the

01:11:18 of the the turn of them as they come through you know they come in bulks and that's you know it's something for organizations to plan their way i've seen that in other organizations too but okay now if we can leave this topic and

01:11:30 okay now if we can leave this topic and move on to oversight of the neighborhood team now if i can

01:11:33 if i can ask you to go back to your first witness statement

01:11:37 statement that's tmo triple zero double zero eight nine

01:11:40 nine five and page two within that statement and paragraph nine in particular uh you say there the office servicing the estate including grenfell tower was managed by nicola

01:11:51 grenfell tower was managed by nicola bartholomew who's responsible for managing the neighborhood team whilst the receptionist at the office was part of the customer service team nicola was imposed from about may 2016

01:12:03 about may 2016 and prior to that the office was managed by siobhan rumble first of all can you help the panel what did the neighborhood team do

01:12:12 so um the neighborhood team would deal with the whole range of housing management issues that come in simon sign up with tenancies and social behavior issues somebody wanted

01:12:24 social behavior issues somebody wanted to

01:12:26 exchange or um somebody had died and they needed to deal with a succession so the whole manner of estate things it could include domestic abuse cases

01:12:40 it could include domestic abuse cases or any safeguarding issue a whole whole range of things that's the neighborhood aspect of that and were they the first point of contact

01:12:51 and were they the first point of contact for residents yes they would have been apart from the customer service who would do the reception part they would be the the true first point of contact now

01:13:03 the true first point of contact now there are two areas of the neighborhood team's responsibility that i'd like to discuss with you this morning the first is their role in providing fire safety advice and the second is their role in identifying vulnerable residents who may

01:13:14 identifying vulnerable residents who may be suitable for a personal emergency evacuation plan sorry can you just say whose role who the neighborhood the neighborhood now if i can now deal with the first of those which is fire safety advice

01:13:26 fire safety advice and if i could ask you to turn to your second witness statement and which is up on the screen still and page five

01:13:34 page five and paragraph 23 in particular when you say that i've been asked to detail any recollection notes or correspondence regarding consideration or discussion of

01:13:45 regarding consideration or discussion of the best approach to ensuring all residents received and understood fire safety advice this type of discussion would have been had by members of the health and safety team

01:13:53 team would be best place to answer this question

01:13:57 question based on that evidence is the position that you did not have any discussion with the health and safety team about what fire safety advice

01:14:05 advice your team would be providing to residents

01:14:09 residents no because the the health and safety fire advice was was sent

01:14:15 sent directly from or was yeah sent directly from the health and safety team they had the responsibility to design that advice were your team aware of what fire safety

01:14:27 were your team aware of what fire safety advice

01:14:27 advice ought to be provided to the residents if residents had asked for it um yeah my teams were very clearly aware of the state but policy and the advice there they they

01:14:39 policy and the advice there they they would have you know they would have told residents that and on what basis do you say they were very clear what's in your personal knowledge and experience that allows you to say that

01:14:50 experience that allows you to say that um it was just absolutely the the center of

01:14:53 of our understanding and knowledge and that i think it you know as housing professionals who'd worked in housing a long time um that was the experience and strategy of

01:15:04 that was the experience and strategy of you know other organizations and in particular but this time you know um i know that they knew that it was staple advice it was in all our literature in our link magazines in our sign up

01:15:17 in our link magazines in our sign up information in various articles it was repeated and um you know it was repeated to residents in a number of different forums different ways

01:15:28 forums different ways now if we can go back to the uh 2017 fire safety strategy which is a tmo double zero eight three two seven two

01:15:39 double zero eight three two seven two four

01:15:44 if we can go to page three in this document

01:15:49 and it's the third bullet point from the top

01:15:52 top which says information to residents general fire safety information evacuation strategy storage and communal areas

01:15:59 areas smoke alarms lfb home fire safety visits etc

01:16:02 etc is provided via the tmos website in regular articles in the quarterly magazine tool residence the link and the home ownership newsletter in the residence handbook in an introductory letter to all new

01:16:13 in an introductory letter to all new tenants etc additionally more specific fire safety information is available through regular sheltered housing newsletters etc did the housing team have responsibility

01:16:25 did the housing team have responsibility for the distribution of fire safety information

01:16:32 um no no they didn't have specific responsibility unless in this in the sign up pack when they gave out the sign up back so who would be responsible for ensuring

01:16:43 so who would be responsible for ensuring the accuracy and the distribution of information via link magazine articles so um so we had pete griffin who's responsible for the

01:16:54 for the link magazine and which department is he in sorry to customize yvonne birch's team and the resident's handbook who'd be responsible for providing the information in that and

01:17:05 providing the information in that and distributing it to residents sorry if i could just go back and say well people wouldn't have written the information he'd got it off janice he'd have got it off the you know the expert in health and safety

01:17:16 you know the expert in health and safety in terms of the information but distribution would distribute distribution would be him and um it was something that he took a lot of time and investment in and i'm pretty sure he arranged

01:17:29 pretty sure he arranged home delivery of of that magazine now the resident's handbook who is responsible for distributing that so the residence handbook was um something being developed by one of

01:17:42 um something being developed by one of yvonne's staff um

01:17:47 we'll come on to that later can you remember who it was um don't worry we'll come on we'll come onto the residence handbrake after the break and it may well be in that time

01:17:58 that time you'll remember you uh indicated earlier on that information would be given uh in introductory letters to new tenants and who would be responsible for providing

01:18:08 providing those letters to new tenants um i believe that there was a you know a standard letter that was part of our um induction pack when we signed people up there was a um there was a pack that we gave out to

01:18:20 um there was a pack that we gave out to residents

01:18:23 residents and that would be the neighborhood team who gave that out you say you believe did you ever verify for yourself what information was being provided in that letter about fire safety um did i have a review i i'd seen a copy

01:18:37 um did i have a review i i'd seen a copy of it

01:18:38 of it and i did actually review the packs at some point with um a member of staff but that was a long time ago i can't remember the details was it at the start of your time at the tma

01:18:48 tma oh no it was probably

01:18:53 in the last year okay before the fire i think

01:19:01 but i don't think i don't think i changed the letter i think it was now janice jones who's a neighborhood officer at the tmo said that residence handbook and the residence handbook and the repairs

01:19:13 residence handbook and the repairs handbook

01:19:14 handbook were not distributed to residents between 2010 and 2017. now my first question is is that right

01:19:24 i'm not sure if that was right i know that it was in it it was being renewed and it was somebody called janet so it has come back to me um who was responsible for doing that and it did take a long time

01:19:37 doing that and it did take a long time to be

01:19:39 to be reviewed um but i'm not sure that we weren't distributing the previous version of it at that time so i'm not sure i'm surprised to hear that

01:19:53 are you able to put it more categorically and say that whatever version was provided that residents were nonetheless provided with the residence handbook

01:20:04 with the residence handbook and the repairs handbook between 2010 and 2017.

01:20:08 and 2017. well i can't claim for anything up to 2014 i don't know and actually um i'm not sure i do remember being

01:20:20 i'm not sure i do remember being involved in the review of that hamburg um certain sections of it and i do know it took a long time but i can't confirm more than that now it was your team is that right who's responsible for reviewing and revising

01:20:32 responsible for reviewing and revising the residence handbook no no no not sure so it was janet seward in the policy and performance team she had the responsibility of doing that

01:20:43 had the responsibility of doing that um it was a big job consulting various different sections across the organisation so i was personally involved in reviewing relevant bits to my teams within it sorry to interrupt would

01:20:55 teams within it sorry to interrupt would you have reviewed fire safety information would you left that to janice yes absolutely [Applause] so i'm about to move on to a new and separate topic so if it's convenient for

01:21:07 separate topic so if it's convenient for you

01:21:07 you good point wouldn't it um before we we'll have a break in just a moment um before we do could i just take you back for a moment to an answer you gave uh mr clear a bit earlier on about um

01:21:20 uh mr clear a bit earlier on about um discussing health and safety uh sorry for fire safety advice with the health and safety team he asked you to confirm his understanding that you didn't have any discussion

01:21:31 discussion with the health and safety team about what fire safety advice your team would provide to residents and you answered no i know you didn't

01:21:42 and you answered no i know you didn't because the health and safety fire advice was sent directly from the health and safety team who were responsible for designing it but you didn't say to whom it was

01:21:54 it but you didn't say to whom it was sent

01:21:55 sent by the health and safety team so i think um

01:21:58 um so i think they would have written articles so that janice did a direct introductory letter that went into our into our packs yeah is and um she would have provided peter griffin

01:22:09 she would have provided peter griffin the information that went into the link magazine

01:22:12 magazine so whoever was publishing something would get the source information from the health and safety team did your neighborhood teams get anything direct from janice ray

01:22:25 from janice ray no but they would have been aware of the advice that was going out directly so they would have seen seen that they saw link magazine so they would have been joined up in the message that was being sent out very clearly

01:22:36 that was being sent out very clearly right well that's very helpful it just clarifies that for me thank you thank you

01:22:39 you right well we will have a break now uh we'll come back please at 20 to 12 and uh have to ask you please not to discuss your evidence with anyone uh while you're out of the group thank

01:22:50 uh while you're out of the group thank you thank you very much you'd like to go to the usher

01:22:59 [Music]

01:23:05 right 20 to 12.

01:40:37 would you ask mrs brown to come back in

01:40:48 please

01:41:01 all right take your time all right carry on yeah thank you for yes mr kennedy thanks sir now during your time at the tmo the

01:41:12 now during your time at the tmo the revision of the residence and repairs handbook appears have started in 2015. is it right that neither handbook had been finalized in its revised version by the time of the fire

01:41:23 the time of the fire i i can't specifically remember but i do remember it taking a very long time yeah can you remember why it took so long um i can't specifically i mean obviously

01:41:34 i can't specifically i mean obviously it's a big piece of work and there's lots of people to consult across the organization then there must have been a reason that um

01:41:42 um it sort of halted and i can't remember that i'm afraid would you accept that both the residence and repairs handbook are a useful means of communicating fire safety information to residents

01:41:53 to residents yes they definitely are a useful mechanism but they're not the only mechanism to do that would you accept that it is a the absence of up-to-date fire safety information in those handbooks

01:42:04 information in those handbooks is a significant omission in the mechanisms for providing fire safety information to residents it's

01:42:11 it's a part in the admission but there were other mechanisms to to do it is your view that the omission of information and

01:42:22 that the omission of information and up-to-date handbook was made good by the provision of information by other sources

01:42:26 sources well i'm saying in that particular respect there were other methods in which fire safety information was communicated i mean clearly yeah and you'd itemize those as the link magazine

01:42:39 magazine the the letter for new tenants any newsletters that went to grenfell specifically in the um in the course of the development

01:42:51 um in the course of the development website information there were a variety of

01:42:55 of now can i turn to the topic of personal emergency evacuation plans and first of all are you familiar with those plans otherwise known as peeps i'm familiar with the term yeah now

01:43:07 i'm familiar with the term yeah now janice ray in one of her statements the inquiry

01:43:10 inquiry and the reference is at tmo double zero eight four seven three zero five internal page 35 set of paragraphs 115

01:43:21 internal page 35 set of paragraphs 115 to 116

01:43:23 to 116 this i've been asked to provide more information on the tmo's intention to produce peeps for vulnerable and disabled residents i've also been asked to set out the extent of my knowledge and involvement

01:43:34 extent of my knowledge and involvement in this plan peeps were generally targeted at workplace and occupational settings

01:43:39 settings and not residential dwellings additionally the health and safety team were not routinely advised of the location of vulnerable residents or those with disabilities if vulnerable or disabled residents

01:43:50 if vulnerable or disabled residents raised concerns with my estate or neighborhood colleagues who would have visited that resident and or asked the fire risk assessor to visit and or sought an lfb home fire safety visit

01:44:01 safety visit now first question is this were you aware that esa's or neighborhood officers

01:44:06 officers could refer vulnerable or disabled residents to the health and safety team for peeps or an evaluation for peeps um i'd say not specific

01:44:17 um i'd say not specific not specifically i mean i know i knew we all knew that we could go to um janice ray and her team for advice on anything but specifically would they have gone there i i i don't think they would

01:44:29 i i i don't think they would um i don't think they would have been looking to do peeps at the time so is your evidence that no one in your time

01:44:38 time at the tmo from february 2014 in the housing department would have thought to have referred any vulnerable or disabled resident to the health and safety team for peeps evaluation i can't speak for

01:44:49 for peeps evaluation i can't speak for every everybody but um i know i'm sorry tis your department the housing department

01:44:57 would they would sorry would your team have been aware during the time you were the director of housing from 2014 onwards

01:45:07 onwards of the opportunity to refer a vulnerable or disabled residents to health and safety team for evaluation for a peep not specifically for a peep they would have definitely spoken to janice

01:45:18 have definitely spoken to janice um about a particular issue or concern they had in terms of vulnerability they would definitely have done that we had discussions with people um with her about

01:45:27 her about mobility scooters all sorts of things but i don't think in terms of general needs that awareness would have been widespread

01:45:38 widespread you made the distinction there between general needs would members of your team have been aware of that

01:45:45 that possibility of referring to the health and safety time team for a peeps for those in sheltered accommodation so so my team didn't necessarily cover the sheltered

01:45:55 sheltered team in that in that way it would have been the um team who would have done the intense work in terms of um peeps but yes generally my my awareness and i

01:46:06 yes generally my my awareness and i would assume that of my teams was that it was more appropriate to do them in

01:46:12 in childhood housing accommodation than in general needs and why was that distinction drawn i think because um because of our state policy we weren't expecting to

01:46:24 weren't expecting to evacuate in sheltered accommodation i think there's the there is the support to enable a peep to take place you know generally

01:46:36 generally you know there are people on hand to do that in general needs the position has been very different um and you know obviously this depends on your interpretation of the of the guidance but our

01:46:50 of the guidance but our strategy was stay put strategy do you recall any discussion during your time at the tmo that

01:46:57 that a vulnerable disabled resident in general needs housing ought to be referred to health and safety for peeps i no i don't remember that specifically or at all any discussion at all

01:47:12 or at all any discussion at all i know that um there was a discussion um around one of the residents in there's lots of discussion around mobility scooters and how we could accommodate those but that was not

01:47:24 accommodate those but that was not specifically about peeps can you just help me with this your answer um

01:47:30 answer um referring to the staple policy suggests that

01:47:34 that you were seeing this uh in the context of a complete evacuation of the building seeing a peep in terms of yes um

01:47:46 yes i get i guess i guess we i guess we were

01:47:49 were we weren't having detailed discussions about it but i think the thing about as a peep is that that's your you need

01:47:56 need you need somebody to assist you with evacuation well maybe but um it was always possible wasn't it

01:48:02 wasn't it that a person with disability would need to evacuate either his or her own flat or because the fire was in that flat or the

01:48:13 because the fire was in that flat or the floor

01:48:13 floor as a whole because there was a fire in another flat on that floor which was potentially endangering his or her flat so

01:48:23 so the need for evacuation wasn't limited to a case in which there might be a fire affecting the whole building no no i guess

01:48:34 no no i guess but but we were we were certainly i mean at no point did anybody suggest to me that we should be having peeps and be looking at them as part of our evacuation strategy or

01:48:45 as part of our evacuation strategy or any strategy what we were doing and we were very much concentrating on was trying to build up information about vulnerabilities in order to tailor services to meet needs

01:48:56 services to meet needs that was in terms of general provision clearly we used that information um when there were emergencies so you know if there was a gas shut off or you know the purpose of it was to try

01:49:08 you know the purpose of it was to try and help us prepare to to utilize that information we definitely did use that in many situations um but we but we weren't i don't think we

01:49:20 but we but we weren't i don't think we were looking to you know peeps in in general all right thank you very much thanks sir were you aware of the shepherd's court fire

01:49:29 fire in the summer of 2016 yes were you aware that that

01:49:33 that that involved a partial evacuation of that building

01:49:40 um uh yeah probably yes i probably was yeah did that prompt any consideration on your part

01:49:47 your part that would have to be some form of provision to enable vulnerable or disabled residents to evacuate

01:49:54 evacuate if the fire arose so i think rather than the shepherd's bush fire which probably isn't helpful to answer your question my my last experience had been um a fire at

01:50:05 my last experience had been um a fire at a dare tower um and in which um it was a staple policy but the fire brigades

01:50:14 brigades arrived and decided to evacuate that building and they did evacuate that building and people you know people with vulnerabilities and disabilities were evacuated and that was my most recent

01:50:26 evacuated and that was my most recent experience prior to that every time that i had had to attend a fire compartmentalization had worked there had been no issue

01:50:38 had been no issue and so in summary the adair tower fire didn't cause you to think where there was a need for peeps or some other provision

01:50:46 provision to enable the evacuation of vulnerable resident disabled residents in the event of a fire

01:50:58 sorry would you like a break no i'm good it's okay to be fine just give me please give me a second yeah just take a moment to uh sorry can you ask me the question again of course okay

01:51:10 of course okay is it right to summarize your evidence this way that the dare tower fire didn't cause you to think

01:51:18 think that either there should be a personal emergency evacuation plan or some other arrangement to provide for the evacuation of vulnerable or resident or disabled residents from tmo high-rise

01:51:29 disabled residents from tmo high-rise buildings

01:51:30 buildings no i'm afraid it didn't because my experience there was that the fire brigades

01:51:35 brigades um arrived um and you know they led on that they made the decision to move from a state but to an evacuation policy and they led that and it worked and

01:51:46 and they led that and it worked and there was no there was no when when we did a review on that there was no recommendation from the lfb for or from anybody else to have changed that

01:51:57 anybody else to have changed that because it was very unusual that is the only fire that i'd been to obviously prior to grenfell where um sorry would you like a break

01:52:08 um sorry would you like a break no i'm sorry sorry this is just going to inevitably going to happen i'm afraid but i would like to carry on if i can and presumably the same answer would apply in relation to the shepherd's

01:52:20 apply in relation to the shepherd's court fire for the reasons you've just given that didn't prompt consideration of peeps or some other form of arrangement for evacuation no and you know my experience has been that is

01:52:30 that is it's very unusual for it not to work well you were excuse me were you aware that a resident in general housing uh could have been referred to the lfb for a home uh fire safety visit yes

01:52:43 for a home uh fire safety visit yes absolutely and i know that we did refer people there um for a home safety and visit i know i know that we did that because we worked with janice

01:52:54 because we worked with janice um on a list of properties where fires had occurred you know small fires and and uh part of the support that we put in there was to offer a home visit to make sure that you

01:53:07 offer a home visit to make sure that you know the risk of fire was considered and every preventative measure was put in place so yes we would have done that can you remember during your time at the tmo where the whether the lfb following a

01:53:19 where the whether the lfb following a home fire safety visit have arrays with your department the need for a personal emergency evacuation plan for any vulnerable or disabled resident no and you know if they had it would have done it

01:53:31 did you have any discussions with janice ray about identifying vulnerable or disabled residents in general needs accommodation um not not specifically but i do know

01:53:42 um not not specifically but i do know that you know we were obviously doing this

01:53:44 this you know fairly significant tendency check and vulnerability policy and and and i and you know in preparation obviously for supporting people but also for

01:53:54 for our crm system that was well known across the organization and so um but but not specifically no did she ever raise with you uh

01:54:07 did she ever raise with you uh the question of peeps at any time i don't remember a discussion about it apart from having a discussion at um health and safety

01:54:16 safety committee meetings around um sheltered sheltered

01:54:20 sheltered um residents and so at no time does she prompt you to think about referring residents to her department in from general needs housing if they're vulnerable

01:54:31 vulnerable or disabled i i don't remember that um do you know from your personal experience in dealing with other almost you worked for were there any other social housing

01:54:42 were there any other social housing landlords

01:54:43 landlords uh prepared for vulnerable and disabled residents

01:54:46 residents um it said it certainly wasn't my experience i'd worked at hammersmith previously um and

01:54:53 and um i i don't remember as as doing that there and that was after the you know the lga guidance i can remember why that wasn't done

01:55:05 i can remember why that wasn't done i mean i think it all comes back to you know you

01:55:09 know you at the time are sent you know the central advice that govern the way that ourselves and i believe many other organizations housing organizations was you know based on the lga guidance

01:55:21 was you know based on the lga guidance that you know stay put works and that you know those bits and that that really do say

01:55:26 do say you know may it's imp maybe in certain circumstances impractical to evacuate i mean you know there's much discussion on this now but you know in it's easy to look back

01:55:39 but you know in it's easy to look back in hindsight but we were we were operating

01:55:42 operating according to that guidance in a way that i think other organizations across the country were and is it your evidence that the lgi got the lga guide had informed that approach

01:55:54 the lga guide had informed that approach yes i think very much so that you know that's that's in us in our fire safety strategy i think so now can i turn to tmo apologies miss brown sorry and i was

01:56:06 apologies miss brown sorry and i was just saying you know there are i i know obviously you've given um guidance and the inquiry have given guidance on that but i do think it's an extremely

01:56:15 extremely complicated um area to to to get right in terms of keeping peeps up to date and you know how you would

01:56:26 would apply that evacuation [Applause] um can i now turn to tm01017541 and these are minutes from a health and safety committee meeting on the 13th of

01:56:38 safety committee meeting on the 13th of june 2017

01:56:40 june 2017 and if we can turn to page four of those minutes a paragraph 3.8 which is under the subject heading fire safety

01:56:47 safety summary now it's minuted there at 3.8 bm barbara matthews raised concern at the amount of fires due to misuse or cooking in microwave oven and

01:56:58 misuse or cooking in microwave oven and queried what could be done to reduce the incidence of these hc is that hash advisor the procedure his team following sheltered residents are particularly vulnerable work with social services requests an

01:57:10 work with social services requests an assessment by a fire assessor and a home fire safety visit from the lfb however where the resident is in the wrong accommodation requires increased care

01:57:18 care even where this is recognized there can be a considerable delay before a move can be arranged tb presumably you advised that this can be

01:57:26 be even more of a challenge when the vulnerable residents are in general needs housing but she advised that neighborhood staff appear to have made every effort to address the risk highlighted by the minor fires and false alarms mentioned

01:57:37 minor fires and false alarms mentioned in the report now what had neighborhood staff done to address the risk of minor fires and false alarms so this goes back to what i just explained earlier um janice obviously

01:57:50 explained earlier um janice obviously in her regular meetings with the fire brigade would become made aware or we and we would in other ways be made aware of where there had been an incident and i do remember um there was a spreadsheet and we would

01:58:03 um there was a spreadsheet and we would look at that and then neighborhood officers

01:58:07 officers would go out and visit and arrange for the lfb

01:58:11 the lfb to assist and see if there was anything you know that we could do in those situations for example sometimes you'd be concerned if people didn't you know there's have electricity and

01:58:23 you know there's have electricity and the risk of them using candles and fires and things like that so it was around prevention thank you now can i turn to a separate topic which is vulnerable residence policy in the supporting

01:58:34 residence policy in the supporting residence policy can we turn to tm0080461 this document is entitled vulnerability

01:58:45 this document is entitled vulnerability policy

01:58:46 policy the file name indicates that it's dated 2014.

01:58:49 2014. um first of all do you remember this um yes um was this the first draft of the policy that was sent to you to the best of your recollection i um i i i i don't know

01:59:02 i um i i i i don't know what whether this is the first draft or not can you remember who drafted so i worked with um david drafted up david noble yes sorry david what

01:59:13 david noble yes sorry david what prompted

01:59:14 prompted the development of this draft can you remember

01:59:18 remember um i think so this obviously sat alongside doing the the tenancy check work um sorry and which was heavily um about tenancy profiling

01:59:31 um about tenancy profiling um i think this was this was around making sure that um the whole staff the whole organization had a pro an approach to recognizing

01:59:43 approach to recognizing vulnerability and referring people to neighborhood teams who they thought might need some support thank you now on the first page we see that the

01:59:54 that the policy identifies three key areas the tmo customer strategy then the hca regulatory framework tenancy standard and finally the care act presumed the care act 2014.

02:00:07 what was your understanding of the duties owed by the local authority to residents under the care act 2014. um so this is around having um

02:00:21 um so this is around having um care plans care packages in place isn't it yes

02:00:26 it yes what was the understanding of the tmo's duties to vulnerable residents

02:00:31 so our understanding was to provide as much support as we could to vulnerable residents and we did that in a variety of ways and that was um central and paramount and a lot of our

02:00:43 central and paramount and a lot of our policies particularly our asb policy and what were your team's specific responsibilities and emphasis on the word specific for supporting vulnerable residents

02:00:55 vulnerable residents so i think they would have been around um

02:00:58 um signposting people to the correct support agencies where that was appropriate to make sure that they had the support in need either care package

02:01:09 the support in need either care package or

02:01:10 or mental health services a whole a whole range of things now can we turn to page two of this policy and at the top of the page there should be a definition yes existing definitions which says

02:01:22 existing definitions which says h and s don't really have anything only the peak process which is mainly ad hoc and or self-nominated shelter housing don't really have anything either because by its nature everyone's in a supported housing meets the

02:01:34 in a supported housing meets the eligibility criteria hms presumably that's the health and safety team um looks like it now was it your understanding that health and safety had no definition

02:01:45 and safety had no definition at the time of a vulnerable what constituted vulnerability um i wouldn't i wouldn't have i don't remember that i don't

02:01:56 have i don't remember that i don't recall

02:01:57 recall how would you decide whether a resident was vulnerable or not in the absence of any definition well i think um outside this policy and we're looking at it specifically in our

02:02:09 we're looking at it specifically in our in our tenancy check profiling form we clearly out identified you know people people who

02:02:20 identified you know people people who may be

02:02:21 may be vulnerable with within that um and in our asb

02:02:25 our asb policy there's extensive information um and we've done training for our staff around all sorts of vulnerability and all sorts of support arrangements that you might want to tap into so you know in terms of housing

02:02:37 into so you know in terms of housing management um the issue of vulnerability would have been you know well explored and and known protect you know the possibilities of vulnerable people now maintaining the focus on uh peep and

02:02:49 now maintaining the focus on uh peep and the process it says there that the process was mainly ad hoc and or self-nominated does that accord with your understanding at the time um

02:03:03 yes but focused on shelter generally how did you understand that residents could be aware of the process by which they could self-nominate

02:03:17 sorry dude can you just say that again yes you'll see there that the peak process is mainly ad hoc and or self-nominated how would a tenant a resident know how to self-nominate themselves for a peep

02:03:31 i'm not i'm not sure that we did any publicity around that to tell them so it'd be fair to say they wouldn't be aware of the arrangements if you weren't publicizing it

02:03:42 you weren't publicizing it um yes yes i think i think that's fair to say but i i also don't recall anyone asking for one not that the only should be on them i'm just saying i

02:03:53 should be on them i'm just saying i don't recall that can you recall any resident self nominating no i can't at any time

02:04:04 no i can't at any time during your employment at the tmo did you or anyone at the timo consider whether the peak process could be integrated into the vulnerable policy process

02:04:16 process no i don't think that we did

02:04:20 now if we move further down page two the next main

02:04:23 next main heading is identification you'll see there is section three the section refers to people currently on the system and quotes we need to decide whether they remain

02:04:34 they remain was a decision taken on whether to retain

02:04:37 retain existing information about vulnerable residents

02:04:40 residents or not well i don't think there would be any reason to um delete or take off any of the information that we had our processes and this and the tendency

02:04:52 our processes and this and the tendency profiling were about updating the information and making sure that it was correct and and filling in the gap so i don't think there would be any intention to remove it

02:05:03 it okay now turning further down this paragraph

02:05:06 paragraph the next section refers to identification of people by neighborhood rent

02:05:11 rent income officers and so during the tenancy check process by customer services offices and other teams now turning to the first bullet point there and people identified by customer

02:05:23 and people identified by customer services officers other teams csas need training on identifying possible vulnerability issues with callers and visitors was that training ever carried out to

02:05:35 was that training ever carried out to your knowledge

02:05:39 um there was an extensive um training program in in the customer service center we we implemented that

02:05:51 we we implemented that quite early on and we talked to them about the need to on single view to put information

02:06:01 in the fields there on vulnerable people um

02:06:05 um i'm pretty sure of that were training needs identified can you remember do you have any specific recollection were there any training needs or identified for any other teams um i know that we did um so as we rolled

02:06:18 um i know that we did um so as we rolled this out we definitely did there was you know training for for my teams we also did training for repairs direct i remember one of my team leaders doing um training in a what they call two

02:06:31 um training in a what they call two boots talks early one morning um to engage our repairs

02:06:36 repairs um service in this who obviously had you know great access to two residents to make these referrals if they saw concerns do you recall the substance of any

02:06:48 do you recall the substance of any training given to csas on how to identify vulnerable or potentially vulnerable residents

02:06:57 residents i think there was something in their training manual on this i'm i'm pretty sure that there was um so so you know identifying vulnerable people would have been fairly commonplace for the customer services

02:07:10 commonplace for the customer services assistance and for neighborhood staff um it is

02:07:14 it is you know it's the nature of their work um

02:07:17 um you know where they had concerns about somebody i know that they were asked to sort of flag it to um a manager um and you know if they were really concerned

02:07:28 you know if they were really concerned obviously a neighborhood would get involved and take that forward so um i know that that was um part of their their manual now we've had disclosed to us ten drafts of the supporting

02:07:40 us ten drafts of the supporting residence policy um did you receive each and every one of them i i don't i don't think i did um did david noble consult you on each and every draft i don't remember each and every draft i

02:07:52 i don't remember each and every draft i do remember being you know heavily involved in that and do you remember any discussion of peeps during the course of that process

02:08:04 i don't it's an i don't recall that do you recall any discussion as to how tenants could self-nominate for a peeps and to ensure that they had that option

02:08:16 and to ensure that they had that option no no i think last minute if residents were unaware of the prospect of self-nominating um how could they do it well i think

02:08:30 how could they do it well i think i think if people had had discussions with us about it in detail then um they would probably have been provided with some information but um is that a supposition it is the supposition of abortion you can't speak

02:08:42 supposition of abortion you can't speak directly with that ever happened no because i don't remember anyone asking us specifically for repeat could we now go to tm0080465

02:08:54 could we now go to tm0080465 and this is a document entitled the safe and sound procedure now this appears have been drafted to accompany the safe and sound policy and paragraph 1.1 of this procedure says

02:09:07 and paragraph 1.1 of this procedure says in its preamble that this procedure supports the safe and sound policy now my first question is was the vulnerability policy renamed the safe and sound policy well

02:09:19 renamed the safe and sound policy well that

02:09:19 that i mean you'll see that we i don't know why we did this but we changed we changed the name of this procedure a lot along the way why um i don't know specifically i think

02:09:31 why um i don't know specifically i think i think it ended up at the supporting people policy which is which was um

02:09:41 a way of engaging all staff to think about

02:09:45 about how they could support people which which which was its intention now can you remember seeing this uh draft procedure document before today i i don't remember

02:09:59 today i i don't remember can you remember contributing to its drafting or consideration um i remember having discussions about it i met i may have um contributed to it i'm sure you'll be

02:10:11 um contributed to it i'm sure you'll be able to tell me if i did but now if we go to paragraph 2.1 it's on this page and we can see that residents with support needs are to be identified by neighborhood offices

02:10:22 neighborhood offices etc do you agree that these are mainly tmo employees falling within your team that are responsible for identifying that

02:10:31 that yes and i believe i believe that we widened this from from this because you know clearly my teams were already involved in identifying vulnerable people in the course of their work so um and given that practice given this

02:10:44 um and given that practice given this procedure

02:10:45 procedure is it fair to say that your department was responsible for implementation of this policy and this procedure no i think this was um i mean this was never the finished product so in terms

02:10:57 never the finished product so in terms of the overall procedure our policy our policy teams would have been um

02:11:03 been um responsible for the implementation of the procedure because it was a procedure across

02:11:08 across you know that was intended to be applied across the organization although obviously it had strong links to my team because they would be the people referred to well the particular burden falls on your team

02:11:20 particular burden falls on your team doesn't it because under the clear heading identification of residents the five category of employees set out there for

02:11:27 there for all fall within your team dancing so this wasn't the first set this wasn't the final version of this but on this draft looking at this oh on this on this draft yeah but this now if we can look at

02:11:39 but this now if we can look at paragraphs just developing this point further if we can look at paragraph 3.1 under the heading role of the neighborhood team they were said to be responsible or intended to be responsible for recording and investigating any

02:11:50 for recording and investigating any referrals neither referring the resident to other services whether the resident has given permission we're encouraging the resident to seek support from other specific agencies now was that an accurate summary of the

02:12:01 now was that an accurate summary of the neighborhood team's responsibilities in practice yes absolutely did you ensure that the neighborhood team was aware of its responsibilities at this time

02:12:10 time i.e in 2015 i always made sure that this was a responsibility of my teams whether that was through this policy or through a number of other housing policies

02:12:23 housing policies and what instructions advice or training did you provide to ensure that you were satisfied that your staff knew how best to identify vulnerable residents

02:12:33 residents so we had done extensive training with my team on anti-social behavior and i keep making the link back to them but you know that that was a very detailed policy and procedure that covered all sorts of

02:12:43 sorts of referral and support mechanisms available

02:12:46 available to neighborhood officers to utilize not only in terms of anti-social behaviour but those key contacts that are there

02:12:56 are there with other organizations to provide support you know like safeguarding supporting people mental health services so that was a key part of our role that came across all all sorts of policies as opposed to

02:13:08 all all sorts of policies as opposed to answering my question more directly is the upshot of that that you were satisfied that your team knew how best to identify vulnerable residents

02:13:17 residents yes were there any instances or concerns reported to you that your team were not consistently identifying vulnerable residents or potentially vulnerable residents

02:13:29 vulnerable residents um no i i mean i i i was aware that they were recognising vulnerable people in all sorts of different

02:13:38 different case work and you know my my feeling of that was that they were engaged with that and were very committed to providing support where they could to vulnerable residents that was my experience with the staff that

02:13:50 was my experience with the staff that worked for me and who immediately below you was responsible for the successful and efficient implementation of this policy procedure so it would have been the um heads of

02:14:01 so it would have been the um heads of services

02:14:02 services in the neighborhood sorry the head of service and the the team team leaders below them thank you now could i just follow up on this

02:14:13 now could i just follow up on this question of training mrs brown and in relation to the supporting residents vulnerable policy and could i ask you to go to tm00850223

02:14:29 and you'll see on the second of march 2015 there was a resident engagement team briefing and if we look at agenda item 3.1 which i think is on page one

02:14:48 and we see this part of an update given by dni david noble he said at 3.1 also looking at vulnerability policy important information for cas regarding time residents may need to answer the

02:15:00 time residents may need to answer the door

02:15:00 door if they need large print letters or suffer from mental health issues etc there will be staff training on this now did you have any discussions with david noble about staff training for the

02:15:11 david noble about staff training for the housing team in relation to the requirements of the vulnerability policy um i'm not sure that david did the training for the vulnerability policy i think that it was um

02:15:22 think that it was um a team leader within my team in the south who who did the vulnerability training who was that was it maria sharples or someone no somebody who worked toward can you remember the name

02:15:33 can you remember the name yes i can it's um angelique noble she definitely did the training for the um for the um repairs direct

02:15:44 for the um repairs direct and i think i think it was her pretty sure and would she have been responsible for organizing that for the supporting residence policy as well well they weren't separate policies they

02:15:55 well they weren't separate policies they were well they went through various descriptions i just wanted to bottom out was training absolutely provided on the substance

02:16:03 substance that was called the vulnerability policy and later the sporting residence policy um

02:16:07 um yes i i believe it was i 100 know it was done for the repairs direct people i know that my teams were heavily involved in the development of it we wouldn't have implemented a policy

02:16:18 we wouldn't have implemented a policy without

02:16:20 without you know at least having an awareness of that i know it was discussed at all sorts of team meetings it was discussed at smt

02:16:27 at smt um

02:16:30 you see i mean a lot of this was around these were skills in this policy that you know in terms of training our neighborhood officers were already aware

02:16:42 neighborhood officers were already aware of

02:16:42 of you know the mechanisms to provide support

02:16:46 support um by by the time this policy was introduced okay now can i turn to a separate issue which is finalizing the supporting people policy and if we can go to tmo

02:16:58 people policy and if we can go to tmo double zero eight double six zero double one and this is a senior management team meeting on the 18th of february 2016.

02:17:08 and if we go to page two you'll see you were there so i should say you were there

02:17:12 there second attendee and if we go to page two

02:17:20 actually if we go turn over the page to item 8.1

02:17:29 item 8.1 there we go thank you uh tb that's you advised that there was not a mechanism for staff to feedback information on resident vulnerabilities which led to the development of this policy a crm process is being developed around

02:17:41 a crm process is being developed around this

02:17:44 now by this stage we are now 16 months into the drafting process my first question is this why had 16

02:17:56 my first question is this why had 16 months elapsed with no policy being finalized um i think that was just because of the volume of other work and improvements that we were doing in this period of

02:18:08 that we were doing in this period of time we'd

02:18:08 time we'd you know introduced the whole of the crm system

02:18:11 system we've done a number of restructures we trained all our staff you know there was lots going on and as i say the core of identifying and supporting people

02:18:22 of identifying and supporting people was a role of our neighborhood officers who had always done this this policy

02:18:28 policy was around making sure that other people across the organization were already also utilized to recognize that need and to provide information to

02:18:39 that need and to provide information to our neighborhood officers so yes ideally you would implement a policy quicker than that

02:18:46 than that but but the essential reason was the pressures of other forms and i can't there wasn't a there wasn't a decision not to do it um as far as i can remember i think um

02:19:01 um as far as i can remember i think um i was doing all sorts of other things at this period of time and i don't know why it didn't happen as quickly as it did but there were lots of other things going on at the time like the tennessee

02:19:13 time like the tennessee profiling project which which would have been

02:19:18 been collecting this information as well given the subject matter of the policy um it ought to have taken far less time shouldn't it um yes i think that's a reasonable um a

02:19:31 yes i think that's a reasonable um a reasonable thing to say it should have taken far less time but um whether it had i think it was formalizing it was it was more about formalizing systems that were already

02:19:43 formalizing systems that were already happening

02:19:44 happening you know we always wanted to raise i mean certainly our you know our customer service and our resident engagement team are all

02:19:50 are all you know aware of the need to identify and support vulnerable people i think this was as i said before about widening widening that

02:20:00 that during that protracted drafting process of some 16 months what guidance was given to tmo staff in relation to how to identify a vulnerable resident if any

02:20:11 any well i'm not sure if other managers gave um

02:20:14 um information out to their staff and doing that i don't know if um repairs directive did or not but um i think you know we had discussed this for in various

02:20:27 we had discussed this for in various forums along the way so obviously people were aware of the importance of it and so is it fair to assume that um historic customer practice continued in

02:20:39 historic customer practice continued in relation to the identification of vulnerable residents or potentially vulnerable yes absolutely in various ways and so the

02:20:46 the processes for communicating uh the identification of vulnerable or potentially vulnerable residents remain the same throughout this protected period

02:20:54 period yeah i mean they they've been enshrined in neighbourhood work or they've always been enshrined in neighborhood work you know this is um in in all our policies as i said before

02:21:05 before were you concerned at any stage during the 16-month process that there was no formal

02:21:10 formal finalized policy in place to govern the issues surrounding identification and management of vulnerable residents or potentially vulnerable wrestlings um sorry can you can you just say that

02:21:23 um sorry can you can you just say that again

02:21:24 again yes were you concerned at any time during this 16-month period that there was no policy for vulnerable residents in place um

02:21:37 i think i would be concerned that the wider organization weren't being um pulled into it but but in terms of my own teams and and generally most teams across the

02:21:49 generally most teams across the organization i would know that they recognized the need to support

02:21:54 support um residents to maintain their tenancies there were neighborhood support teams all sorts of other teams working you know very hard to to do that so in that respect it didn't concern me

02:22:07 that respect it didn't concern me so in summary at no stage did you have cause to raise any concerns with your seniors

02:22:13 seniors about the delay in finalizing the supporting people policy i i don't remember doing so do you remember anyone else raising any concerns i don't

02:22:24 could i now turn to tmo double zero eight double six zero double one

02:22:34 and this is a senior management team meeting on the 18th of february 2016. uh you are second on the list of attendees

02:22:42 attendees and we can see that you arrange to discuss matters with graham webb and hash uh champshoon to get their views on for policy first of all did they express any or any

02:22:53 first of all did they express any or any substantive concerns about the substance of the draft no i mean hash managed the um sheltered or sheltered schemes so and our cows team so

02:23:03 team so he again would have been very um aware and knowledgeable and his teams would have already been involved in you know supporting vulnerable residents that would have been key to his his his work um um graham didn't

02:23:18 his his work um um graham didn't um express any concern about it at all i mean i think his staff repairs direct staff were very open to training and you know providing a wider contribution

02:23:29 you know providing a wider contribution across the organization to our core purpose i mean they they attended um domestic abuse training as well and you know they were they were very engaged so did you ask the health and safety team for their

02:23:41 the health and safety team for their views on the draft i don't remember doing so

02:23:44 doing so would you have done so um would someone else have done that i think i think i i mean i certainly wouldn't i guess i guess um david was doing the legwork on this on this policy

02:23:56 on this policy do you recall any substantive concerns being expressed by any member of the health

02:23:59 health and safety team about the substance of this draft policy no no not at all and in this team barbara's barbara matthews was at this

02:24:11 barbara's barbara matthews was at this meeting and she obviously had overall responsibility for health and safety i don't remember her raising any concerns can we now turn to the 10th and what appears to be the final draft of the

02:24:23 appears to be the final draft of the supporting residence policy which is at tmo

02:24:26 tmo double zero double eight zero four eight one

02:24:48 now if the header can be expanded we can see that it provides for an operational date of april 2016. there is still a draft watermark on the document can you help

02:25:01 watermark on the document can you help us as to

02:25:02 us as to whether the policy was formally finalized

02:25:05 finalized in april 2016 or on some other date um i would imagine that it was um going by this i can't i can't remember specifically the exact date

02:25:16 remember specifically the exact date um now can we turn to another document at tm00805 four nine

02:25:38 four nine now these are minutes of again an smt meeting on the 17th of march 2016. so shortly before the stated operational date on on that draft we've just looked or the document we've just looked at

02:25:50 or the document we've just looked at and if we can turn on the first page it's at the bottom of the first page to agenda item 1.7 we see set out there tv confirmed the supporting people policy has been updated following

02:26:01 updated following input from hc so that'd be hash tv advice that the policy has not yet gone to et executive team is that right

02:26:10 right is that right um yes it's secretive team yeah for simof as the position on this has not yet been clarified if von burch is drafting a procedure for sign off of policies by et executive team

02:26:23 et executive team what's the supporting residence policy and procedure shared with the senior management team after this meeting on the 17th of march 2016 um i don't remember when it was shared

02:26:34 um i don't remember when it was shared with them but but i think this um yvonne birch drafting a procedure for sign off isn't specifically about this policy it's about that um i think she was reviewing how

02:26:45 um i think she was reviewing how policies

02:26:45 policies i understand i understand that that's apologies it may be my question was unclear are you able to assist us as to whether the policy procedure was shared with the smt

02:26:56 shared with the smt after this meeting smt or smt um

02:27:04 can you remember if you can't remember well i'm assuming it would have done yeah if we if i said i was going to yes i'm assuming it would have but it but it might not have mean me actually it might have been david doing

02:27:15 actually it might have been david doing it

02:27:16 it and who would have been responsible for sending the policy and procedure to the executive team would that be you or david noble oh so david was taking responsibility ultimately for writing it he reported into

02:27:29 well in the chain i've come on to von burch so i would expect it to um go through that way i believe sasha was aware we discussed my manager was aware and she was an et

02:27:42 my manager was aware and she was an et representative so it was your expectation but you're not in a position to confirm the position is that fair expectation that would have been circulated to both e.t and s t yes absolutely they were they were

02:27:54 t yes absolutely they were they were aware of that i know that they were aware of its development now david noble said that a policy could be implemented if it had not been signed off by the executive team did that reflect

02:28:05 executive team did that reflect your understanding of the position

02:28:09 yeah i think that's that's right but there was no reason for et not to have signed off um this this policy that's not quite uh an answer to the question i asked

02:28:21 question i asked um was your understanding that a policy could

02:28:24 could be implemented even though it hadn't been signed off by the executive team um

02:28:35 i i can't remember the the process really if i'm honest to explain how and why but yes i mean this this policy quite possibly that could be the case because this positive policy

02:28:47 the case because this positive policy wasn't a fundamental change it wasn't a you know a a huge legendary introduction it was about improving

02:28:56 improving um you know our sort of approach to customer care so i i think yes it's possible that it didn't have the weight of um you know some of the i don't mean the weight

02:29:08 weight doesn't mean that i don't put words in your mouth but it seems to be that as it was a

02:29:12 was a codification of existing practice it didn't have and didn't involve substantial change it didn't quite have the profile that a new policy would i think so the first i think that's where i was trying to go

02:29:23 think that's where i was trying to go yes that's a good summary now mr it's really important mainly to assist the uh transcriber if you don't talk over me i promise not to talk over you as well it's just um she has to get everything

02:29:35 it's just um she has to get everything down

02:29:35 down now given your evidence that it didn't represent a substantial change in policy and practice um was any training provided first of all to your team regarding the substance and

02:29:47 to your team regarding the substance and requirements of the new supporting uh people policy and procedure well i we would definitely have made people aware of it because you know the potential was that they were getting um referrals from other parts of the

02:29:59 referrals from other parts of the organization so um i i i

02:30:03 um i i i do believe that the teams would have been

02:30:07 been trained and briefed on it maybe through a team meeting maybe not something you know really significant for my teams in terms of neighbourhood you say would have been were they trained

02:30:19 would have been were they trained on the substance and requirements of this new policy i have no reason to believe that they weren't but i can't categorically tell you how and when they were

02:30:27 were was training provided both to members of your team and repairs direct definitely prepared provided to repairs direct

02:30:35 direct why are you more certain in relation to repairs direct but uncertain in relation to your own team because because i remember specifically who did it

02:30:46 it sorry who provided the training and that person was a team leader in my team so if she was providing that training for repairs direct there is no

02:30:57 training for repairs direct there is no way that she will not have briefed her officers

02:31:01 officers about the policy and its implementation and the impact on them so i can't think of a specific training date for them but i know that they would have been fully briefed about it

02:31:12 have been fully briefed about it now can i turn to the supporting residence procedure and if i can turn to tm0080481

02:31:23 and if i can turn to tm0080481 and it's returning first of all to the policy at page one under the heading background the third paragraph under background says the supporting residence policy is designed to ensure that we identify

02:31:35 designed to ensure that we identify those residents who may need additional support

02:31:37 support record what support is needed deliver it where we can and help to ensure that we work with any relevant agencies and make referrals to them where necessary it also aims to make sure that in an emergency relevant residence needs are

02:31:49 emergency relevant residence needs are prioritized wherever possible this document sets out the key aims and responsibilities to enable this to happen

02:31:54 happen this policy is supported by a procedure that sets out in greater detail the steps to be taken was the reference to emergency intended to cover fire as well no i don't think specifically it was

02:32:06 no i don't think specifically it was given that fire is a foreseeable event why wasn't it a visit to be an emergency covered by the policy

02:32:19 um sorry can you can you say that again of course

02:32:24 of course fire is a foreseeable event why wasn't it the type of emergency that was anticipated to be covered by this policy

02:32:33 policy um

02:32:36 well i think i'm saying is that the information you know any profiling information that we that we provided was to deal with it was to assist with you know tailoring

02:32:47 it was to assist with you know tailoring services

02:32:48 services and tailoring services um you know i'm providing

02:32:53 providing sorry i'm not i'm not describing this very well i don't want to put words in your mouth and please say if this is neither fair nor correct but

02:33:02 but it appears that fire wasn't anticipated at all

02:33:06 at all when considering the type of events this policy was addressed to cover is that fair yeah i think i i find i think that's a well i think that that's a yeah

02:33:18 well i think that that's a yeah and is the explanation for that that people were focused on customer care provision rather than events such as fire is that fair yeah i mean i think this wasn't you know this wasn't a health and safety policy

02:33:30 this wasn't a health and safety policy it was linked to it was linked to you know operational procedures in terms of how can we how can we identify and collect information and yes

02:33:42 information and yes principally it wasn't did anyone say fire is foreseeable that should be addressed within this policy

02:33:52 well

02:33:56 no no i don't think anybody did say that can you explain why not

02:34:08 well i

02:34:11 um i cannot explain why was it just it never crossed anyone's mind

02:34:18 well i don't think the risk of fire never crossed anybody's mind i think um this was for for a different

02:34:28 purpose can we turn to section two excuse me which is headed definition and the following definition of a resonance to whom the policy applies is given as an individual or household with

02:34:39 given as an individual or household with care

02:34:40 care and support needs or who is experiencing difficulties with day-to-day life as a result of health or disability age social family financial behavioral or other circumstances or any combination of

02:34:51 circumstances or any combination of these

02:34:52 these was that the tmo's historic working definition of a residence who may require support i think it was a definition for for this policy

02:35:02 policy um yeah

02:35:06 did that reflect the historic custom and practice

02:35:10 practice definitely so um you know if you if you go back and look at the the tennessee profiling visit i mean that was very much focused on identifying needs across

02:35:21 on identifying needs across you know the um equality strands and that is

02:35:24 that is that's linked to this and that was customer practice and that would have been given your previous answers that would have been widely known across the tmo would it

02:35:33 it that working definition this definition um probably not across the tml definitely across all of my teams

02:35:46 would it have been known can you speak to this within the health and safety department

02:35:53 um yes i would see no reason why not can you see any reason why it wouldn't be known for example by repairs direct as well well in terms of um

02:36:09 as well well in terms of um i i can speak for graeme i i was well i can't speak for creme clearly sorry but you know he would he would have because he met with us regularly he would have had an understanding of this but i don't know if the wider teams would have had

02:36:21 know if the wider teams would have had that

02:36:22 that you know understanding and known that definition now can we turn to the supporting residence procedure which can be found at tm0080482

02:36:37 there we go and if we can turn to page seven

02:36:42 again operational date april 2016 and if we could turn back to the first page of this procedure and look at paragraph 2.2

02:36:55 it's headed potential indicators and solutions

02:36:59 solutions which reads there are a number of indicators that officers should be alert for

02:37:02 for sometimes a resident will simply tell us that they have a particular issue what needs to be done to support them now can you see there any reference to fire safety or

02:37:15 any reference to fire safety or evacuation considerations for a vulnerable resident no can you explain that absence um because we weren't looking at this in terms of fire and evacuation

02:37:28 in terms of fire and evacuation if it wasn't being looked at here in relation to vulnerable residents where was it being looked at i don't think we were looking at evacuation strategies for

02:37:39 evacuation strategies for residents in the event of fire because of our state policy and by we do you mean the tmo or do you mean the housing department no i mean the organization thank you

02:37:51 i mean the organization thank you now can i turn to a new topic which is recording data in relation to vulnerable residents and in particular the retention of that information on capita and crm now there were three points

02:38:03 and crm now there were three points that a resident in general housing could be identified as being vulnerable and i just want to check that we've summarized this correctly

02:38:11 correctly first of all on sign up for a new tenancy

02:38:15 secondly during a tenancy audit and thirdly

02:38:19 thirdly on the basis of an ad hoc meeting with a neighborhood officer i'm so sorry can you just repeat the first part of that yes now there seems to be three occasions on which uh a resident could be

02:38:31 on which uh a resident could be identified as vulnerable or potentially so

02:38:33 so yeah first of all on sign up for a new tenancy

02:38:37 tenancy do you agree with that yes definitely during a tenancy audit do you agree with that

02:38:41 that yeah and finally as a basis of an ad hoc meeting with a neighborhood officer or well i think there would be wider ways and

02:38:50 ways and phone phone calls into the organization so we had we had set up our crm system so that there was a flag um where we well there was a potential to record

02:39:03 we well there was a potential to record on our single view we called it the first screen of our um crm system and this information could be input into a part of that screen so that

02:39:15 a part of that screen so that anybody could record vulnerability and the whole ethos of our crm strategy was to make that a um a feature across the

02:39:26 make that a um a feature across the organization so that anyone having a conversation if they were concerned could

02:39:30 could could update that and and record vulnerabilities thank you we'll go into that into more detail but can i first before we do so can we turn to your second witness statement which is at tm00842402

02:39:45 which is at tm00842402 if we go to page six

02:39:49 and if we go to paragraph 27 in particular and when you say i've been asked to set out my knowledge of the vulnerable res persons list used by timo staff on the lancaster west estate

02:40:00 lancaster west estate essentially we had a vulnerable person flag on the cramps crm system that we used to tailor our housing services to meet the specific needs of a resident

02:40:08 resident the flag function was helpful in circumstances such as if there was a power outage as we would use the list function on crm to compile a list of vulnerable resins and where they were located now my first

02:40:20 and where they were located now my first question is the basic one which is was information on vulnerable residents primarily stored on crm

02:40:28 on crm so it depends on the source so the tenancy check information was definitely uploaded onto capita and the historic information was on

02:40:39 and the historic information was on capita

02:40:41 capita and my understanding is that as we developed the crm system capital system fed directly into the crm system and uploaded and transferred that data

02:40:53 and uploaded and transferred that data that's my understanding of it and am i right in understanding that crm was introduced in 2016. yes that's right and where did you store information by you i mean the housing

02:41:05 information by you i mean the housing department in relation to vulnerable residents before 2016. so so our um any information that we had would have um in hard documents would have gone on

02:41:17 um in hard documents would have gone on our w

02:41:18 our w two system so any of the tenancy checks would have gone on there and then the information would have gone to um david noble's team to input into capita when you say david noble's team

02:41:31 capita when you say david noble's team david noble plus who else so david nowable plus him for a while but later on

02:41:36 on another policy officer and we employed somebody to put information on to to help us with the inputting

02:41:44 inputting the um tenancy profile information um could you compile a list of vulnerable residents from crm um

02:41:54 i believe that you could um can i stop you there you say i believe yeah are you able to confirm

02:42:01 confirm that you could compile a list in the sense that you've done it i personally hadn't done it but my experience of asking for lists of vulnerable people i would either go to um

02:42:12 um david noble or i would ask a team manager and i believe i believe that

02:42:18 that um i

02:42:21 um i i believe that my call center um operatives could could have told me what was on on um

02:42:32 crm i i believe so i'm not certain of that and i haven't made the call to check so i'm not certain okay now could i turn to tenancy auditing and if

02:42:43 could i turn to tenancy auditing and if we could

02:42:43 we could take you to um minutes from two separate meetings the first of which is at tmo double zero eight five one two six eight and that should be a housing team

02:42:54 and that should be a housing team monthly minute from a meeting on the fifth of june 2014 and if we can turn to page six

02:43:05 and we can see that at item eight you provide an update on tenancy checks and the profiling project at 8.2 it says this tb that's you and david noble took a report to et

02:43:17 david noble took a report to et executive team on proposals to improve profiling information on tenants to enable the tmo to adapt its service to meet the needs of its customers 8.3 has been agreed that as there are huge

02:43:28 has been agreed that as there are huge gaps

02:43:29 gaps in the information currently stored this project will start from the beginning profiling information will be collected through home visits and we will also take the opportunity to carry out a tenancy check at the same time the first question is

02:43:41 at the same time the first question is this what were the needs of its customers

02:43:44 customers to which the tmo service required adaptation well it could it could be anything it could be um the way that we um sent out written information the way

02:43:55 um sent out written information the way we communicated over the phone the way that our um operatives um visited a property whether they knocked loudly or left time for someone to come and talk

02:44:06 left time for someone to come and talk to a draw it could be a whole range of of things what were the huge gaps referred to and quoted

02:44:14 quoted at 8.3 so i think this was around i mean i believe that there had been previous um uh previous

02:44:25 uh previous attempts to gather profiling information um by the organization but i think the issue that we had was that um it there wasn't a huge high proportion

02:44:37 it there wasn't a huge high proportion of

02:44:37 of information stored on our systems and also the data which it was collected hadn't been recorded so it was quite difficult to understand how old that information was whether it

02:44:49 how old that information was whether it was relevant so this was around making sure that it was currently up to date and what profiling information did you seek to collect so it's all the information that's in the profiling form so it will be any

02:45:00 profiling form so it will be any anything

02:45:00 anything in terms of um you know the um the whole equality strands and disability information um obviously the question now went wider

02:45:13 um obviously the question now went wider than that

02:45:13 than that but in terms of vulnerability that would be what we were doing and what was the practical purpose for which you intended to put this information so this linked into obviously we wanted

02:45:24 so this linked into obviously we wanted to know that information in its own right

02:45:27 right you know to to check that um we were providing the right support to people that we you know came across in our tenancy checks but it was also really important to to

02:45:38 to to as um inform the information on our crm system that single view that i talked about before it was important that we had as much information about our

02:45:49 had as much information about our residents that we could input into that into that system is it fair to say though given your previous answers that uh the need to identify

02:46:01 uh the need to identify vulnerable residents who may need assistance in the event of a fire wasn't one of those practical purposes to which you intended to put the information it wouldn't have been um you know the sole purpose but

02:46:13 sole purpose but i do know that where we had you know where we had where we had incidents of fires in the past we had utilized the information that we'd had from profiling that we had on our systems to provide

02:46:24 that we had on our systems to provide assistance we had definitely done that in the adair fire so whilst it wasn't um you know it wasn't specifically related the intention of that

02:46:36 intention of that vulnerability policy as well was to have that information available but given that was one of the purposes for which you were collecting information why was fire and the need to evacuate

02:46:49 why was fire and the need to evacuate vulnerable potentially vulnerable residents not specifically accounted for in the supporting people policy and procedure

02:47:02 it wasn't the purpose of it but we will have we would have used the information from the tenancy profiling and the um and the vulnerability policy to to um

02:47:15 the vulnerability policy to to um in emergency situations we had done in the past and we would have done in any situation where you know we'd come across an emergency but would you accept there appears to be a serious gap

02:47:27 a serious gap in the scope of the supporting people policy and procedure as it didn't address the needs of vulnerable residents in the event of a fire

02:47:36 fire it didn't address evacuation of the vulnerable people in the event of a fire but it would have addressed um providing support to people who had been in there so so for example

02:47:48 had been in there so so for example today

02:47:49 today today attire when um when we were on site there i accessed the vulnerable information in relation to the the floor that was affected

02:48:00 affected on my way to that i got that information and we would have utilized that in that emergency situation to provide support and response to the people there that's how we would have utilized it it

02:48:11 that's how we would have utilized it it didn't go that stage in terms of you know evacuation but it was used um in those situations but given that you had used it and used it in a practical situation of an evacuation of

02:48:23 practical situation of an evacuation of a dare tower i'm sorry to come back to it but why was evacuation not covered in the supporting people policy and procedure it wasn't it wasn't included in words um but it

02:48:36 it wasn't included in words um but it was

02:48:36 was you know all this collection of all this information was going to a bank of information that we could could utilize and draw on in an emergency situation

02:48:49 emergency situation so given it wasn't in words on what basis would you expect your team members

02:48:56 members to know which residents would require assistance uh in the event of evacuation so my team members would have used that would consider that when they're identifying

02:49:07 consider that when they're identifying vulnerable people under the purpose of the policy sorry can you can you yes we talked

02:49:15 given that the requirement to cons identify vulnerable people for the purposes of evacuation wasn't to use your term in words

02:49:27 wasn't to use your term in words isn't that a serious gap in the policy the scope of the policy that was meant to safeguard vulnerable people so we weren't looking to evacuate our residents we were

02:49:38 residents we were looking to utilize information in in emergency situations to provide support in any normal well in in any situation where um

02:49:49 well in in any situation where um there had been an emergency we had definitely utilized it in a proactive way to provide support to residents and the next point is given that a dare tower had happened and an

02:50:01 a dare tower had happened and an evacuation had taken place

02:50:06 you'd have practical experience but suggested the policy ought to have embraced

02:50:10 embraced evacuation and it didn't did it

02:50:14 no it didn't but the fire brigades we were on site with the information that we had from our systems and the fire brigade did evacuate people at a dare fire okay now can we go to agenda item 8.8

02:50:28 now can we go to agenda item 8.8 which is at page six also and it says tv aware of the project before talking to other teams about the project details of the process and recording of outcomes need to be

02:50:39 and recording of outcomes need to be worked out training for staff on how to deal with fraud will also need to take place

02:50:44 place which other teams did you talk to about this project um i talked to the council's um fraud team they were involved in providing our training

02:50:58 did you talk to health and safety uh in terms of the profiling visit um i didn't specifically um well did you

02:51:09 i didn't specifically um well did you no i didn't talk to them about this process now i didn't talk to them do you know whether anyone involved in the project spoke to health and safety um directly no as opposed to

02:51:21 um directly no as opposed to supposition okay so i i i don't know if they did

02:51:26 they did specifically but i know that this policy was widely talked about in the in the organization there are et managers

02:51:33 managers who have responsibility for health and safety i'm sure that they would have talked about it with their teams and the development of it did you identify any need for further or any

02:51:44 identify any need for further or any training

02:51:45 training to staff in relation to uh resident profiling um we we provided significant training for our staff on the introduction of this profiling

02:51:58 on the introduction of this profiling project i remember there were i do remember there were specifically two dates um for that training and it was provided by myself maria and kieran and also the um for road

02:52:11 and also the um for road um officer from the council andy hyatt now can i go to tm00851809

02:52:22 now can i go to tm00851809 and this is the second minute i promise i take you to and this is a meeting on the 26th of august 2014 you are present and if we go to agenda item seven heading headed tenancy checks with

02:52:34 heading headed tenancy checks with profiling project update

02:52:39 which is at seven point there we go and if we go to 7.2

02:52:46 andy hyatt is to come back with training dates for the week commencing 8 15 september training by ks mstb and andy hyatt will address how to complete the form in tennessee fraud tb and ms to send email to all staff

02:52:58 tb and ms to send email to all staff involved to explain the project and when it will be implemented now was the primary aim of the tenancy audits to identify fraud tenancy fraud no it wasn't there was one aspect of it

02:53:09 no it wasn't there was one aspect of it it was

02:53:10 it was it was principally the profiling and the forming capture encapsulated a number of things um but no it wasn't principally about fraud

02:53:21 but no it wasn't principally about fraud and in fact we separated out later at a later date we we concentrated more on the profiling and separated out the fraud from our process now at the or in relation to this

02:53:32 now at the or in relation to this specific audit stage was any bespoke training provided to staff on how best to identify vulnerable or potentially vulnerable residents so we went through i mean this training didn't

02:53:43 went through i mean this training didn't just didn't just concentrate on the fraud aspect there was a that was a small part of it it was around um

02:53:51 around um but did it focus on identification of vulnerable people

02:53:57 um i can't remember the detail of it um specifically but in terms of neighborhood teams they would have already been aware about the um no identification of vulnerable people

02:54:09 no identification of vulnerable people can we turn to iws quadruple zero one double seven eight

02:54:20 quadruple zero one double seven eight if we turn over the page

02:54:23 we see the start here of a questionnaire um that was completed and if we could turn over the page

02:54:32 there you go this is a questionnaire the housing team used to complete tenancy audits is that correct yes who designed the questionnaire um so

02:54:43 um so i had an input um david noble had an input and um he was the primary draftsman um

02:54:57 i think mr noble said it was probably him

02:55:00 him well it started with my pa doing some benchmarking crossy um a number of organizations to look at best practice so um i can't honestly um

02:55:12 um i can't honestly um remember who who did it you know who was responsible for which part of it but overall um david noble i guess eventually was now if we turn to page 10

02:55:26 and hopefully get to section d entitled at the top of the page you see about you and your needs

02:55:36 and you'll see there are detailed questions asking residents about their needs and any disability again why were you asking these

02:55:47 again why were you asking these questions

02:55:50 any of these questions um to understand to understand what sort of support people

02:55:57 people needed now can you explain why if anyone if any respondent confirmed they had a disability that they weren't referred to the health

02:56:09 that they weren't referred to the health and safety team for a peep because that wasn't that wasn't the practice that we did okay can we turn to page 17 which is the

02:56:20 okay can we turn to page 17 which is the final page of the questionnaire it was signed on 24th of june 2015 we see there

02:56:27 see there in the bottom left-hand corner that was before the supporting residence policy and procedure was completed now before the implementation into force of

02:56:39 before the implementation into force of that policy and procedure how were tmo employees completing the form to know what action they should take on the basis of the information set out in the questionnaire so

02:56:50 set out in the questionnaire so um initially um this was um something carried out by neighborhood officers doing a door knock to um to residents to complete the form

02:57:01 to um to residents to complete the form that's how it was done initially and i think a thousand mod were collected in that way but my question was directed to what action they should take so

02:57:13 action they should take so if a questionnaire indicated that the respondent was vulnerable or had a disability how would

02:57:20 would your employees know what to do with that information uh that a resident was vulnerable or disabled so there was a whole um there was a whole sort of training around this and a whole

02:57:31 around this and a whole w-2 um sorry crm process about what to do with the information once they collected it you know and part of that was making the necessary

02:57:42 necessary necessary referrals to other organizations if support needed to be provided or dealing with any other matter that arose and there was a whole sort of structured process on our um crm

02:57:53 sort of structured process on our um crm system for doing that but that structured process never included peeps for the avoidance of data it didn't include peeps where would the information get sorry mr from i i

02:58:05 where would the information gathered from these questionnaires be formally gathered so it was um that the paper form would have been uploaded into the w2 system

02:58:17 uploaded into the w2 system and the um sorry into

02:58:23 w-2 yeah w-2 and the we had a workflow that would record any other actions that needed to be done

02:58:34 any other actions that needed to be done and referrals that needed to be made so you could

02:58:36 you could track you know the outcome of this and as a result of this questionnaire exercise did you notice an improvement in the accuracy and completeness of the information you had

02:58:46 had on residents who were yeah so the other thing to add was that it was it was uploaded into capital it was definitely uploaded in capital we had a person who did that um and you could see over time i think

02:58:57 um and you could see over time i think there was a report into the executive team

02:59:00 team late 2016 to see to by david that reported some of the progress that was being made in terms of that profiling information thank you mr brown uh sir it's one o'clock

02:59:12 brown uh sir it's one o'clock um i've come to the end of that topic well how convenient very convenient yes and so therefore i invite you to rise until too yes thank you very much well did you heard mrs brown that's a convenient point we'll break now to have

02:59:24 convenient point we'll break now to have some lunch thank you we'll come back at two o'clock please and in the meantime please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything

02:59:31 anything really thank you thank you very much

02:59:45 thank you

03:00:05 you