Kensington & Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation Evidence - Tuesday 4th May 2021 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:15 would you ask mr madison to come back in

00:00:28 please alright miss madison ready to carry on yes thank you very much yes mr millet yes thank you mr chairman mr madison we were on the subject of the aovs and i was in the middle of an email

00:00:40 aovs and i was in the middle of an email chain

00:00:41 chain i think we may be able to take this a little bit more quickly just in general terms given what you told us earlier about your knowledge of the state of the aov in in september 2014 did you at that stage

00:00:54 in september 2014 did you at that stage consider what interim measures should be put in place for grenfell tower pending the full replacement of the aov system um the dialogue i'd

00:01:06 of the aov system um the dialogue i'd seen with the fire brigade was that they'd recommended some um some working practices for horizons to follow and taking care in certain

00:01:17 follow and taking care in certain networking practices at the beginning of the end of the day and i'd also understood that the fire brigade had um would have used uh smoke um

00:01:28 would have used uh smoke um systems uh in the event of a fire uh breathing apparatus rather right that's ryden and the lfb what about the residents

00:01:39 about the residents did you consider what interim measures were needed to be put in place pending the replacement of the aov system that would protect the residents the assumption was that the advice to

00:01:50 the assumption was that the advice to residents would stay the same and there would still be a stay policy right so there was no specific change in the advice necessary as a result of that i assumed but the purpose of the aov

00:02:01 but the purpose of the aov was to keep the escape route clear of smoke wasn't it yeah yes but if the aov wasn't working what interim measures did you consider if any to be put in place to keep the escape route clear of smoke when you

00:02:12 the escape route clear of smoke when you say the escape route it was for the the corridors the communal areas yeah and not just not the state and in fact the stair

00:02:21 the stair i thought this there was a separate component all right so taking the communal areas then to start with what what interim measures did you consider needed to be put in place if any pending the

00:02:32 place if any pending the um i personally didn't didn't look at that i was taken as would have taken the advice of the experts in that right i see did you consider telling all residents of grenfell tower

00:02:44 of grenfell tower that the aov could not be guaranteed to work in the event of an emergency in the event of a fire um not specifically no i did tell a number of um

00:02:56 tell a number of um residents who'd asked specifically that question

00:02:59 question but not a general advice because my understanding was the advice would have still been the same and stay put in that the lfb would have different uh approaches

00:03:10 approaches that they would take in the event of a fire and that rydens had taken into account the advice of the lfb in terms of their working practices and now just to pin you down a bit if i may you say you did tell a number of

00:03:22 may you say you did tell a number of residents who asked that question who were they um well i've seen them correspond you know it's all in on the record correspondence with mr dufan mr awaderu possibly mr collins

00:03:33 mr dufan mr awaderu possibly mr collins i think as well yes and i think it is right that there was in the end a response to the gtla because they had asked the question

00:03:42 question but do i take it from that that there was not a

00:03:46 was not a a full response to all residents in the building by way of a circular letter or something of that nature telling them that

00:03:52 that the aov system was not working i'm not aware of there being one i mean it may if there was one it would have probably been between janice ray and claire williams we haven't been able to find one

00:04:04 we haven't been able to find one can you explain why there wasn't one as i say i would have been following the advice of the experts in this view you advised not to tell all the residents that there was no aov system working

00:04:14 working no certainly not i mean my as i say my assumption was that the advice that they've received which was this is stay pushed policy would still apply

00:04:22 apply in the event of the av wasn't working right

00:04:28 i'm curious how would the continued application of the staple policy be an appropriate interim measure in respect of an aov system which was designed to keep

00:04:40 designed to keep at least some part of the escape route clear

00:04:44 my understanding was that the fire brigade

00:04:48 brigade the advice was the residents should contact the fire brigade and the fire brigade

00:04:52 brigade so residents stay put and that the fire brigade would use breathing apparatus to help but i have no direct involvement in this

00:05:04 but i have no direct involvement in this that was just my understanding based on the information that i've seen did you ask yourself the question at the time i wonder how somebody who does need to evacuate their flat because there is a fire in their flat

00:05:15 fire in their flat will get through the communal area in the absence of an operating aov system i didn't specifically think that as i say you know the people that wasn't my direct area of

00:05:26 that wasn't my direct area of responsibility i'd be looking for the advice of the health and safety team the fire risk assessor and the fire brigade in these so you would be looking for the advice

00:05:37 so you would be looking for the advice did any did you actually ask either your health and safety team or your fire risk assessor or the fire brigade the question i've just asked you

00:05:48 brigade the question i've just asked you which was how do people who need to escape

00:05:51 escape from that well how do people breathe in the communal areas if it's full of smoke if they're escaping from their flats i didn't specifically ask that question no uh now can i then turn to the topic of

00:06:03 uh now can i then turn to the topic of emergency lighting in 2016. um you you i think have dealt in your first

00:06:10 first statement with um a complaint about this topic in february 2016. and i think i can shorten it by taking you to your first statement please at paragraph 105 on

00:06:22 please at paragraph 105 on page 20. there are underlying documents but it will be quicker i think just to show you your statement you say here there had previously been emergency lights on every other floor

00:06:34 emergency lights on every other floor in the stairwell but following a report from a residents to collins that they were faulty we arranged for all the lights in the stairwell and lobbies to be replaced and we took this opportunity to fit

00:06:45 opportunity to fit new emergency lights to every floor in the stairwell instead of every other floor

00:06:49 floor the new lights were installed by allied protection i believe at the time of the refurbishment works this was in 2016 and all lights were therefore relatively new at the time of the fire

00:07:01 at the time of the fire now that's what you say there um can we look next at tm00840545

00:07:14 if we look at the first page you'll see that these are the minutes of a health and safety committee meeting dated the 12th of april 2016 which you are present

00:07:22 present as you can see from the list of names can we turn police to page five in this this minute we can see under part 6 or section 6 of

00:07:34 we can see under part 6 or section 6 of it

00:07:35 it that at 6.5 you raise a query and the minute says this pm queried how we put the fire strategy into practice he gave an example of emergency lighting at grenfell tower which had been taken

00:07:47 at grenfell tower which had been taken down by the contractors but not reinstated and this was not picked up for several days despite a number of staff and contracted agents being on site in the interim he emphasized the need for comprehensive

00:07:58 he emphasized the need for comprehensive training for all staff who visit site bm acknowledged the need for a health and safety training program not confined to fire safety to be implemented now is this right this was the first

00:08:11 now is this right this was the first health and safety committee meeting after david collins's complaint at the end of january 2016 about

00:08:19 about emergency lighting um that we've been able to see are you referring here to the same incident

00:08:27 incident with the emergency lighting here i think so yes

00:08:31 so yes now in this meeting you notice we've seen that there were staff and contractors on site

00:08:38 who had been there but not picked up this problem was that because there was a broader problem with the maintenance of fire safety systems by tma staff

00:08:52 um from memory the the emergency lighting in grenfell tower at that stage the original well at that stage before it was renewed

00:09:04 well at that stage before it was renewed um every other light fitting was an emergency

00:09:08 emergency light so and you could tell it was an emergency light because it had a little green

00:09:12 green or red light on it to indicate that it was charging and mr collins very cleverly spotted that those lights

00:09:23 very cleverly spotted that those lights weren't on so that the emergency lights weren't charging so there was an issue from memory i think that's what the issue was so my concern here was that other people who were doing regular

00:09:34 other people who were doing regular inspections hadn't picked that issue up so yes i was i was questioning why

00:09:39 why and uh you know making sure that people were alert to the issues that were were there indeed and that provokes a reaction

00:09:51 that provokes a reaction from you by way of emphasis of the need for comprehensive training for all staff who visit the site my question is whether that

00:10:02 statement by you there has recorded illustrated a deeper problem with the implementation of the fire safety strategy not only at grenfell but uh throughout the tma stock

00:10:13 the tma stock i can't really comment on that but i i think that uh it's what what i was what i was keen to do is ensure that there was a culture

00:10:25 to do is ensure that there was a culture of people taking responsibility for things and that barbara matthews shared that view and this was about having an ongoing conversation with the team and people who are on site to be aware of things that aren't necessarily the reason they're in the

00:10:37 necessarily the reason they're in the building or it's just trying to build a broader awareness and responsibility within everybody in the organization indeed i mean the reason i'm asking the question in the way i am mr madison is because

00:10:46 because the emergency lighting was used by you as an example of a more general point you were seeking to make which was how you put the fire strategy into practice

00:10:58 practice uh which is how you start this paragraph and you end it by emphasizing the need for comprehensive training for all staff you visit the site and my question is were you aware or alive to the fact that the fire

00:11:10 or alive to the fact that the fire strategy wasn't properly being put into practice

00:11:15 practice no i mean and the last sentence there is saying not confined to fire safety what i was

00:11:19 i was talking about here was getting a making sure that there was a culture in place in the organization so that people took responsibility for all issues of health and safety including fire safety in the

00:11:31 including fire safety in the organization who was responsible for introducing the health and safety training program which was quotes to be implemented close quotes and that would have been the responsibility of the health and safety

00:11:43 responsibility of the health and safety manager

00:11:44 manager well we have in the right hand column the action identifier and all did they all include you um

00:11:55 well

00:11:59 yeah i'm not sure that all people at that meeting are able to put in place that action and i myself included well

00:12:14 you've said a moment ago that it would have been the responsibility of the health and safety manager was that who was that at this moment janice ray under the health and safety policy was responsible for training do you know

00:12:26 responsible for training do you know whether

00:12:26 whether she did implement a health and safety training program not confined to fast safety which would nonetheless have picked up the emergency lighting example i don't recall

00:12:36 recall right did you follow up on it i don't remember this may have come up at the next meeting i don't know was there any improvement in the maintenance of fire safety systems or

00:12:48 maintenance of fire safety systems or health and safety systems generally after you had identified the need for a comprehensive training program there was an ongoing discussion at this forum and at other forums about raising awareness of health and safety

00:13:00 raising awareness of health and safety issues

00:13:02 issues ensuring people took responsibility and ownership and escalated things if things were

00:13:06 were being done and that was part of the dialogue that happened at these meetings and that was led by by barbara matthews right you say there was an ongoing discussion yes that may be but my question was different was there any improvement did it work um

00:13:23 it wasn't a specific thing that was measured in in the in isolation i think it was part of the whole um the whole fire management piece and the whole health and safety management piece in terms of how many

00:13:35 management piece in terms of how many you know actions from fire risk assessments were being actioned etc and how many how quickly they were done there was a whole range of different uh aspects to this

00:13:46 aspects to this and this was just one conversation about how we could raise awareness and uh hopefully improve matters well you see you introduced this not as a general health and safety point

00:13:57 not as a general health and safety point but as a far strategy point and you illustrate your concern about the fire strategy with the emergency lighting as an example my question is did you have any other

00:14:09 my question is did you have any other concerns about the implementation of the fire

00:14:11 fire safety strategy

00:14:14 other than that illustrated by the emergency lighting incident at grenfell i don't think so now why did you say that it was an example

00:14:24 example the note says you gave an example of emergency lighting if that was the only one why did why did it

00:14:32 it why was it recorded as an example i just felt that it was always something that you could do better can we turn then to the topic of floor numbering

00:14:41 numbering uh now i i i'll show you what you said at module one in your evidence to the inquiry first can we please go to the transcript for day 59 at page 142

00:15:02 what i want to show you here is a just a bit of evidence about the process first of all if you go to line uh four on page 142

00:15:15 uh four on page 142 you say if residents weren't happy about the way that those issues were addressed they could either be escalated to the tmo

00:15:22 tmo and through the tmos complaints procedure or yeah so i think that was the process that was set up and then you go on to say so i think when you describe complaints i think ryden's role

00:15:34 ryden's role was about being the first point of contact

00:15:37 contact on issues relating to the works now we've already looked together at how the grenfell compact came to be recognized by the tmo

00:15:48 compact came to be recognized by the tmo and we've looked also at the august 2015 matrix that councillor blakeman assisted the grenfell compact with which you'll recall from this morning had a long list of of issues in it

00:15:59 long list of of issues in it 28 in all um let me just show you that again and the email by which that came to you let's look at the email first that's at

00:16:12 let's look at the email first that's at met3070923

00:16:20 and uh it's uh the second half of the screen

00:16:25 screen judith blatant to you copy to other counsellors from judith blakeman 28th of august to

00:16:34 august to 2015. dear mr madison i met with some residents of grenfell tower on wednesday evening 26th of august i had prepared a matrix of the issues that had been raised so far together with responses to date to simplify and clarify where we currently are

00:16:47 clarify where we currently are i've since updated it in the light of further matters raised with me on wednesday i attach a copy for your information the items in bold text are the new issues that were raised on wednesday to summarize these are and then if you go over the page to

00:17:00 are and then if you go over the page to page

00:17:01 page two you can see that the longest of bullet points there

00:17:12 now can we then go to the issues matrix which is attached that's at met4 met three zeros four zero nine eight six m et

00:17:23 zero nine eight six m et three zeros four zero nine eight six

00:17:30 and we looked at this this morning um as you can see it runs over some three pages

00:17:37 pages because if you go to page three you'll see there are some 28 complaints in all 28 points

00:17:43 28 points in all when you got the email on the 28th

00:17:47 28th of august from councillor blakeman did you open the attachment and see this document do you remember i'm sure i did yes and if we look at page two

00:17:56 page two go back as a page to page two please we can see that item 23

00:18:03 item 23 reads as follows change floor numbers back to reflect current flat numbers and find an alternative numbering system for the two new flaws and then response in the right hand column which is a tmo ryden response

00:18:17 column which is a tmo ryden response royal mail requires the lower floors to be numbered so that the address is easily identifiable is easily identifiable for the emergency services in the case of any incident flaws have been renumbered and temporary

00:18:28 flaws have been renumbered and temporary signage fitted until the final version is available the floor levels have been altered and it is not possible to revert to the old numbering

00:18:36 numbering um were these concerns recorded in the tmo complaints procedure no why is that so the issues that are raised on the matrix here some of them are already resolved and

00:18:48 some of them are already resolved and some of them are easily resolved they're not all complaints these are lines of dialogue with the

00:18:53 with the um the compact and so i would develop that conversation with the compact i see so some were and some weren't complaints

00:19:04 complaints um i don't know that any of i haven't read them all but um the ones i've seen some of them so for example change the red lights on the lift to blue

00:19:15 lift to blue as a request for service and we did it and so it wasn't necessary to put it through the formal complaints procedure

00:19:26 still a notice board it's not a complaint it's a request for action which we did i see so i think most of the issues on here were

00:19:34 here were fairly straightforward routine type matters that could be quite simply addressed right looking at number 23

00:19:41 number 23 do you remember who wrote this response royal mail requires the lower floors to be numbered etc i think that i probably provided the response into this document for councillor

00:19:52 into this document for councillor blakeman and for the compact and um and the this was discussed i presume at the meeting of the compact and it says flaws have been renumbered and temporary signage fitted

00:20:03 and temporary signage fitted do you know who was responsible for putting up the temporary signage um

00:20:11 i assume it would have been ryden's do you know

00:20:14 you know what are you assuming

00:20:18 it's a strong assumption right and

00:20:25 what about the permanent signage so so the the permanent sign so the permanent signage would be ride this responsibility that way right so the the issue here was that

00:20:36 so the the issue here was that the original floor numbering was like a hotel numbering so

00:20:44 so flat 415 would be on the fourth floor for example um and so that and the royal mail there was a there was a conversation here between

00:20:55 conversation here between planners and the project team within uh with ryden's and this alternative numbering was came about as a result of that recommendation

00:21:06 about as a result of that recommendation which

00:21:06 which later transpired with a little bit of a red herring was this treated as a priority given that it was it was relevant

00:21:17 that it was it was relevant for the purposes of identification for the emergency services in the case of an incident

00:21:22 incident was what sorry treated as a priority the problem the change in the floor numbers and the requests to change the back to to reflect current flat numbers well is that treated as a priority no

00:21:33 well is that treated as a priority no because we didn't agree to change them back

00:21:35 back so the process that we've been through here is we communicated to residents what we were what was proposed to be done and it had been communicated to residents through the newsletter and

00:21:46 to residents through the newsletter and we did what we said we were going to do in that newsletter which was changed the number of floor numberings and then several months later in the through the compact came the request to change it back and we felt that actually

00:21:58 change it back and we felt that actually changing it back would likely cause even more confusion than there was at that time we felt it was probably a change um you know so it hadn't it hadn't this

00:22:09 you know so it hadn't it hadn't this issue hadn't been addressed or raised at the time that we were consulting residents on doing it or informing residents

00:22:14 residents that this is what we were proposing to do

00:22:17 do right let's just see how this then evolves can we go to tmo10010093

00:22:29 [Applause] this is an email chain in early october 2015

00:22:37 and if we go to start with please at pages two to three we can see that at the bottom of page two over to the top of page three judith blakeman writes to you and claire williams relate in

00:22:48 to you and claire williams relate in respect of a number of concerns raised by the grenfell compact at a councillor sir j surgery on the previous saturday you looked at the top of page

00:22:59 looked at the top of page three see what that's what she says in the first paragraph there and she lists a number of uh issues as she calls them one and following and if you go down please to

00:23:11 following and if you go down please to the bottom of your screen about halfway down the page page three you see item number six and she refers to floor numbering and says this

00:23:20 says this they that's the residence continue to have an issue with the with the numbering of the flaws as do the ward councillors whatever the post office requires the new system of numbering is not effective and could prove

00:23:31 is not effective and could prove dangerous in the event of an emergency the notices about the floor number changes and not prominent or secure and in any case would not be helpful to children anyone who does not read english or

00:23:42 anyone who does not read english or indeed anyone with literacy problems the solution the residents propose is that the lower floor should have a new name such as lower grenfell we believe that this issue does require some further consideration

00:23:54 some further consideration and if we go up to page one we can see that

00:23:57 that you've added some comments at the end of her points and you're writing back to judith blakeman here by way of response and you take her numbering uh now

00:24:09 and you take her numbering uh now unfortunately this version of this document doesn't show

00:24:13 show your comments in any differentiation uh color or otherwise but you could see from

00:24:18 from item number one that you see you've added at the end of her paragraph noted and agreed you see that yes so i can take it i think these are your words if we go down to the bottom of page one and look

00:24:29 down to the bottom of page one and look at

00:24:29 at paragraph six we can see that's where hers

00:24:33 hers query starts and if the page to page two we can see you've added at the end after the words

00:24:40 the words uh does require some further consideration you've written we will review this again and come back to you just to confirm those are your words yes i think so yes did you in fact review that issue and go

00:24:53 did you in fact review that issue and go back to

00:24:53 back to councillor blakeman yes i believe i did and

00:24:57 and what was the result of that um we explained the rationale behind the changes in the floor numberings there had been some misinformation going

00:25:09 there had been some misinformation going around

00:25:10 around the block that postcodes were going to change and flat numbers were going to change and neither of those things were true

00:25:16 true and so we just wanted to clarify that point

00:25:19 point um also explained that we'd taken the advice of the planners on this and the planners had advised that um the clearest way of numbering flaws is

00:25:31 the clearest way of numbering flaws is to start at zero at the bottom floor and upwards rather than having um zero minus one or whatever our name floors below which itself could be confusing

00:25:41 confusing um so we we were we were trying to come across a

00:25:44 across a a solution which uh satisfied that well i don't think we were going to satisfy the either party at this at this juncture we were in a position where we needed to try and

00:25:57 needed to try and put in place a solution and clarify what we were doing but my concern was that we

00:26:04 that we had consulted residents informed them of what we were doing had changed things and felt that actually changing it back to the original would have confused matters even more so it was we were in a tricky position at

00:26:16 it was we were in a tricky position at this time

00:26:19 the complaint being made here was in fact

00:26:22 fact as we've seen it that the new system of numbering was not effective as well as the fact that the notices about it were insufficient

00:26:34 about it were insufficient what did you do about the notification that the floor numbers had now changed well the so the the two issues and the floor numbering is being effective i mean i think the the system that we

00:26:46 i mean i think the the system that we had put in place was clear it was different but it's a system that

00:26:50 that was being used on a lot of other estates as well including in the in the tmos housing stock so it um the signage we needed to get the

00:27:01 um the signage we needed to get the permanent signs in place so that people were

00:27:03 were it was there was clear signage throughout the block that didn't fall off the walls or couldn't be removed easily

00:27:09 easily and and that's what we did as we um so janice ray and claire williams worked at ensuring that the contractors put in place improved temporary signage

00:27:22 place improved temporary signage and ultimately put in place clear permanent signage we they also talked to the fire brigade to assess to get their view and ensure that

00:27:33 assess to get their view and ensure that they were comfortable with that approach and

00:27:35 and my understanding is that they were can we go to rbk3052621 please

00:27:47 we go to rbk3052621 please and this is an email some two months later

00:27:51 later first of december 2015.

00:27:59 when as we can see councillor blakeman emails janice ray and the complaints team and you with this and she says in the event that

00:28:10 with this and she says in the event that one of the emergency services receives an urgent call out to attend to a problem in grenfell tower such as a fire within a flat how will they easily locate the address there are no signs either beside the lifts or in the lifts to indicate the

00:28:21 lifts or in the lifts to indicate the new floor numbers where the flats are located the previous very sensible numbering system has as you know being changed causing significant confusion especially for visitors if the emergency services had to attend a flat

00:28:33 services had to attend a flat urgently this is not helpful please do not just put up a temporary piece of paper setting up the new floor numbers each time this has happened it has been removed

00:28:41 removed i'd appreciate a swift response now

00:28:45 now [Applause]

00:28:51 you when you received that you obviously knew what it was about because it related back to the discussion that you had told miss blakeman

00:29:01 blakeman that you would investigate two months previous

00:29:06 previous yes but i think i had i would have responded

00:29:09 responded on the issue of the claude numberings at the following compact meeting obviously there's a compact meeting because we haven't seen an email or any message back to her telling her what the results of your

00:29:20 telling her what the results of your review were what decision you'd made about item six in the email of the second of october we've just looked i think it was discussed at the following compact meeting what was the upshot of that discussion the result as i've described that we felt it would

00:29:32 as i've described that we felt it would cause

00:29:33 cause more confusion to change back to the original numbering and we're sticking with that approach but were

00:29:42 going to get in place the new permanent signage

00:29:46 signage right she says there are no signs either beside the lift or in the lifts to indicate

00:29:50 indicate the new floor numbers where the flats are located why was well first of all was that true i don't know

00:29:57 know i would assume that that would have been checked by janus claire williams and presumably the estate services officers who were responsible for ensuring

00:30:09 who were responsible for ensuring that communal inspections were carried out right let's um let's see what happens next if you go to

00:30:20 ryd3059989 this is the next day 2nd of december 2015

00:30:27 2015 uh and you can see the second email down on that page gary martin of ryden emails linda emails claire williams and linda prentice as and others at ryden second of december hi claire

00:30:39 at ryden second of december hi claire new floor numbers have been put up on the riser doors on each floor complete with individual flat numbers and a directional arrow to show which direction they are in on the exiting the lifts

00:30:50 the exiting the lifts i have also to something a master sheet up in the lobby of the second floor also the now incorrect floor numbers in the stairwell have been obliterated and i'll put up some i'll put some temps up

00:31:01 i'll put up some i'll put some temps up in there also i've chased our qs for the permanent signs and it appears we're waiting for the instruction to go ahead and for each science contents we have the brand guidelines document um were councilor blakeman's concerns

00:31:15 um were councilor blakeman's concerns um registered as a formal complaint or inquiry

00:31:20 inquiry in the within the complaints procedure i don't remember i mean her com her inquiry would have been

00:31:29 been i presume treated as a member's inquiry and it was reported to the complaints team so

00:31:36 team so all we asked council blakeman to ensure that all communication from her was done through the complaints team so we could keep a clear track on all of the issues that were that she raised across the

00:31:47 that were that she raised across the whole of the stock and um and ensure that she got responses right and that the reason i ask that is it looks from this email and tell me if this is wrong

00:31:58 this is wrong that gary martin took steps to remove the old

00:32:01 the old now erroneous floor numbering the day after councillor blakeman's second email the second uh the first the december email

00:32:09 email on this question is it right that action was only taken in response to her complaint at that point i don't know were you aware of any guidance or regulations or advice that the tmo should follow for

00:32:21 or advice that the tmo should follow for floor numbering within grenfell tower

00:32:26 sorry in what respect

00:32:29 were you aware of any guidance or advice or regulation that tmo should follow when numbering the flaws

00:32:38 in respect to change in the numbers yes well

00:32:43 okay um clearly identifying the right floor numbers no it i would just i would assume that there would be a responsibility to ensure that signage is clear so that people know which floor they're on right

00:32:55 which floor they're on right can we go to tm010027592 please

00:33:06 this is an email on the 15th of december 2015.

00:33:19 at the bottom of page one over to page two from janus ray to you copy to barbara matthews and the subject is grenfell tower signage and responses to councillor blakeman hi peter further to the initial query

00:33:30 hi peter further to the initial query from councillor blakeman on this issue on first december she sent in a further email with a photo attached last thursday copy attached just to confirm uh as per your request i

00:33:42 just to confirm uh as per your request i asked the lfb station manager for north kensington to confirm when his crews had carried out the last of their regular familiarization visits to grenfell and he advised that this was undertaken on october 15th i visited the block yesterday to inspect

00:33:55 i visited the block yesterday to inspect the current signage and fed my co fed back my comments all relatively minor declares instructed ryden to address the asap specifically i noted and that she explains what she's noted there

00:34:10 now if you look at the next email up the same day you asked claire williams to tell ryden to complete the suggested actions

00:34:20 actions that had come from janice ray you see you say claire can you please instruct ryden

00:34:25 ryden to action all of these points by closest play thursday please talk to me if there are any points that can't be resolved

00:34:31 resolved uh and then you go on in the next but one paragraph to say janice i will respond to councillor blakeman thanks

00:34:41 now janice ray says as i've shown you uh that she contacted lfb on your request is that right did you ask janice ray to contact the lfb on this subject i don't remember right

00:34:53 on this subject i don't remember right did you ask dennis ray to carry out the inspection she says she did carry out sorry when you say contact lfb on my request

00:35:01 request that was i think i asked her to get their view on the changes of the numbering because i think that we had um

00:35:09 had um we were getting slightly conflicting information from different parties planners

00:35:13 planners royal mail and the fire brigade and i think i was suggesting that janice should check with the fire brigade about what they felt was the clearest way of ensuring that the flaws are numbered

00:35:24 ensuring that the flaws are numbered accordingly i see and she's telling you here that she had asked the lfb station manager

00:35:32 manager when they carried out their last inspect regular inspection regular familiarity i don't think that was the question though the question would have been is this

00:35:40 this floor numbering protocol appropriate whereas

00:35:44 whereas that sounds like a different question i see well that's what she says in her email to you we don't see you going back to her in your email back to her saying you've asked them the wrong question um no i think there's a separate

00:35:56 no i think there's a separate line of dialogue with the fire brigade well right why do you say that given the topic

00:36:03 topic of this email which is signage and responses to councillor blakemore because this is about signage the other issue i was raising was about the floor numbering per se right

00:36:19 did you contact janice ray only after the grenfell compact had raised their concerns about the floor numbering in the august matrix of issues

00:36:32 sorry could you ask yes i'll put it a different way i'm sorry and it looks from what i've shown you so far that the concerns about or you're you're contacting janice ray to investigate the concerns about the

00:36:43 to investigate the concerns about the floor numbering only happened uh after seeing the august 2015 matrix which had identified the problem

00:36:58 well no there's been a previous there's a previous position before that which is where we communicated to residents in our newsletters that we were going to change the new flooring and everyone had been informed of that

00:37:09 informed of that so we were we were basically acting on what we had informed residents we were going to do based on the advice we'd received from planning and we would we would

00:37:21 and we would we would it was only later through the compact these issues were raised as well as residents not being happy with the the new approach so there was a bit of a lag in between so we'd actually done it

00:37:33 lag in between so we'd actually done it and then we received the feedback from the compact that some residents weren't happy and didn't think it was a sensible approach so i think there are two separate issues here one is about the signage yes

00:37:44 here one is about the signage yes and one is about the actual numbering and the protocol around numbering yes i'm getting confused in the question yes i understand and i understand where you are

00:37:53 you are um in relation to the signage i think it's isn't it right to say that actually this is something that came out of the matrix of issues in august 2014 but was taken forward by miss um blake with councillor blatant in

00:38:05 miss um blake with councillor blatant in her october email i thought the matrix referred to the floor numbering per se not the signage exactly so it evolved the point evolved what i'm suggesting to you is the floor signage

00:38:17 suggesting to you is the floor signage problem

00:38:18 problem evolved from something which was already the subject of debate between you and the grenfell compact

00:38:26 um i don't know

00:38:30 looking at the email below on this page janice ray to you uh you can see in the second bullet point the stenciling of floor numbers within the staircase stopped is effective but currently

00:38:41 stopped is effective but currently starts at the fourth floor the lobbies in the stairwell below the fourth floor down to ground level should also be stenciled um this stenciling did you know if this was intended to be a permanent arrangement or only a temporary one

00:38:53 arrangement or only a temporary one i don't once the refurbishment was finished whose role was it to ensure that the signage at grenfell tower was maintained um that would be through the defects period

00:39:07 that would be through the defects period rydens would have a responsibility if there was some defective issues on an ongoing basis it will be done through the estate services inspections and responsive repairs

00:39:19 and responsive repairs and i want to ask you some questions about gas if i can and i'm going to show you your statement please your first statement first of all at page 25 and you deal with this

00:39:30 with this in in

00:39:33 in in on block between pages 25 and 27 at paragraphs 134 to 143 and i won't read them all out to you can i just look at para139 with you

00:39:45 can i just look at para139 with you please

00:39:46 please on page 26 you say there the national grid

00:39:51 grid advised the tmo that it wished to run gas pipes

00:39:54 gas pipes up the stairway they considered this to be the only place to run the pipes as there was no feasible route to run the pipework externally the tmo was powerless to prevent that as national grid with the statutory

00:40:06 national grid with the statutory undertakers legally national grid had the powers to specify how it wished to install its infrastructure tma were concerned by the proposals and needed reassurance and commitment from national grid that

00:40:17 and commitment from national grid that what they were proposing was safe and if we go on uh to pay page 27 you continue on this theme of paragraph

00:40:26 paragraph 141 you say following internal discussions it was also agreed that carl stokes the tmo's retained fire expert should visit the tower to give us his view on the location of the pipework

00:40:38 view on the location of the pipework carl stokes produced a report concluding that the vacation of gas pipes was not a problem per se provided that they were fully fire stopped

00:40:46 stopped and then at 143 you say the work of boxing in

00:40:52 boxing in and fast stopping progressed slowly and was the subject of many complaints by tmo to national grid i was aware that anthony cheney who was acting head of contract management assets and regeneration and who reported to me at the time was

00:41:04 and who reported to me at the time was chasing national grid on a very regular basis but often his emails received no reply at all or promises were made which were not kept my understanding now is that some of the boxing in work may

00:41:15 is that some of the boxing in work may not have been completed by the time of the fire

00:41:19 the fire uh now can i show you uh one particular complaint that was made by a resident can we go to cad four zeros three zero four six

00:41:42 now this is an exhibit to a witness statement by mr uh

00:41:52 martin and it's just disappeared um but this page i think we need um can we please go

00:42:00 please go uh down

00:42:07 to the foot of the email string page six and uh here we have an email from shah ahmed

00:42:20 uh here we have an email from shah ahmed dated the 20th of april 2017 to daniel wood

00:42:24 wood copy to robert black and councillor blakeman

00:42:29 blakeman not to you not to you subject recent visit by the national grid to my flat ref main gas fight through my front door dear mr daniel wood this is to inform

00:42:41 dear mr daniel wood this is to inform you that this morning i had a visit from the national grid without prior notice or letter either from the kctmo homeownership or from the landlord rbkc that they have decided to put the gas pipe through my

00:42:52 decided to put the gas pipe through my front door the national grid also tried to demonstrate the layout of the pipe and i was extremely horrified and shocking of the layout let me reiterate that i find it unreasonable unacceptable and

00:43:04 i find it unreasonable unacceptable and unprofessional forceful entry to my flat i have no contractual agreement with the national grid but with my landlord as leaseholder let me categorically confirm that to the kctmo national grid and you that we have

00:43:15 kctmo national grid and you that we have no intention whatsoever that the main gas pipe coming through my front door under any circumstances and events please confirm and now this i think is copied onto you if you look above that

00:43:27 if you look above that by daniel wood the same day do you see yeah and you just says hi peter please see but though any idea what's happened here

00:43:34 here and who would be best placed to respond and then if you go up to page five you see that you go back to uh mr wood

00:43:47 you see that you go back to uh mr wood uh daniel wood a few minutes later

00:43:53 perhaps a little bit later that afternoon to be fair to you a few hours later

00:43:57 later and you say hi daniel there was a leak on the gas mains a national grid have had to re-run a new mains throughout the block national grid would have to run the supply into residents homes if residents want one

00:44:09 residents want one how this is done is a discussion that mr shah will have to have with national grid

00:44:13 grid it is not our responsibility i will ask anthony to reply to mr shah along these lines and then the address is given in the in the emails that then uh come through uh above that i don't

00:44:26 uh come through uh above that i don't need to show you that now the question uh i have is um did you ask national grid to send you a report or a

00:44:39 national grid to send you a report or a certificate to ensure or assure the tmo that the works that all the gas work main rises in the block were safe

00:44:56 there was quite a extensive and complicated correspondence between

00:45:02 the contracts management team and national grid try and establish what they were proposing to do and it had gone on for some time and our preference was that

00:45:15 and our preference was that they removed the gas supply from the block we felt that running the the new gas supply through the block was unnecessary and felt that they should buy out the

00:45:28 felt that they should buy out the residents and put in electric um it felt like the best way of avoiding running this pipe at all that they weren't prepared to do that and there was a then an extensive

00:45:40 and there was a then an extensive correspondence between um the contracts management team and national grid to try and establish quite what they were doing and to get confirmation that the works

00:45:53 and to get confirmation that the works met the requirements and we talked to building control and we also got um carl stokes the fire risk assessor to give an

00:46:04 the fire risk assessor to give an opinion on what was being proposed too you see what i'm really after is if you go back to page five and you say how this is done is a discussion that mr

00:46:15 how this is done is a discussion that mr shah

00:46:15 shah will have to have with national grid not our responsibility what i'm really seeking to understand is why you thought it wasn't

00:46:22 it wasn't the tmo's responsibility to ensure that whatever gas works or piping works were done within the building was solely in the national grid's responsibility to

00:46:34 in the national grid's responsibility to mr shah directly in respect of which you had no responsibility can you explain that sorry i don't understand the question i'll repeat it

00:46:45 why was it that you thought that it wasn't the tmo's responsibility to ensure

00:46:51 ensure that whatever gas works were done within the building was solely the national grid's responsibility to mr sharp and not the tma's responsibility

00:47:02 the national grid were the statutory authority here was their supply through the building and then being these saturdays

00:47:12 um and and the expert in this i felt that

00:47:15 that they were responsible for carrying out these works in accordance with their regulations they were the experts given the given mr shah's concerns about

00:47:28 mr shah's concerns about safety why did you think that it wasn't the tmo's responsibility at all but for something for mr shah to take up directly with the national grid without your involvement the issue i think i'm

00:47:41 your involvement the issue i think i'm talking about there is that mr shah at the moment at this stage doesn't have a gas supply so

00:47:49 so if he wants a gas supply he would need to talk to the national grid who would provide him with the supply into his home

00:47:57 there was limited scope for where that supply could be run within the building and that's what national grid were struggling with i think here really by

00:48:09 struggling with i think here really by and came up with having to run it through the communal stairwell um but that was what they chose to do our only alternative that we our preferred alternative would have

00:48:21 our preferred alternative would have been that they removed the gas supply altogether and put electric in relation to safety of the works through the stairwell did you at any time seek some kind of

00:48:34 did you at any time seek some kind of report

00:48:34 report or assurance or certification from the national grid or cadent in fact that the works they were proposing

00:48:42 proposing were safe we got advice from building control and from the fire risk assessor and there was extensive communication from

00:48:53 extensive communication from the from the contracts management team and from janus ray in the health and safety team to national grid to raise our concerns

00:49:06 national grid to raise our concerns is the answer to my question yes or no i'm telling you what happened i know well tell me simply did you get any report or assurance or certification from the national grid

00:49:19 certification from the national grid that the works they were proposing were safe i haven't had sight of all of the correspondence that was between the teams that i've described and do you accept that it was the tmo's responsibility

00:49:30 responsibility as the manager of the building to obtain or to be satisfied directly by an assurance from the statutory undertaker so that it in turn could reassure its

00:49:42 so that it in turn could reassure its residents

00:49:43 residents so that was why we were getting asking for

00:49:48 for opinion from building control and from the fire risk assessor raising the concerns that have been raised and trying to get clarification on that point do you accept

00:49:59 point do you accept that it wouldn't have been for mr shah himself to obtain that direct assurance from the national grid

00:50:05 grid himself and i don't think that's what this is suggesting now let's go to another document

00:50:13 tmo10017418 [Music]

00:50:19 this is a copy of the response that you sent to lee chapman and tundia our dairy's complaint about the gas works which they made on the 6th of june 2017

00:50:30 which they made on the 6th of june 2017 only a week before the fire

00:50:34 and you can see it's come from catherine dak

00:50:37 dak but actually if you look at page 3 it's come from you

00:50:43 and if we look at the actual complaint that's made it what you're responding to is

00:50:53 it appears on

00:50:59 page

00:51:04 seven starts on page seven it's dated the 23rd of may 2017

00:51:17 and then on page 10 is the actual complaint

00:51:22 complaint if we go to the response that you send on page one uh under the rubric

00:51:34 under the rubric stage two complaint response various uh various issues at granville tower you confirm receipt of the complaint to the 20th of april in fact it it had emer it had evolved since then

00:51:45 it had emer it had evolved since then and then under gas mains located in the stairwell you say this uh you can you complain that residents are concerned about the health and safety implications of national grid locating the new gas mains in the

00:51:56 locating the new gas mains in the stairwell of grenfell tower the correspondence from sasha jevons and anthony cheney has explained the responsibility for this work rests with national

00:52:03 national grid and they're responsible for ensuring the works meet necessary standards

00:52:07 standards kctm has reviewed the proposals with our fire safety consultant and with the fire brigade who've confirmed that the proposals are acceptable however at this stage the works are not complete and the national and national

00:52:18 complete and the national and national grid are yet to complete the work to install a fire rated boxing around the pipe

00:52:22 pipe i therefore propose to keep this complaint open until this work is complete

00:52:26 complete at which point we will review the works and take further professional advice to confirm that the installation is satisfactory but did you in fact investigate the case

00:52:37 yes now it's right that carl stokes provided advice on the installation of the gas pipes did you see that at the time yes

00:52:54 it's at cst i'll show it to you cst full zero is one two four zero

00:53:09 and it's a letter of the 30th of january 2017.

00:53:14 2017. and there it is i'm not going to read it all out to you

00:53:19 it's right isn't it as we've seen i think that the gtla had asked for a health and safety certificate or reports confirming that the installation of the gas pipes was safe

00:53:30 we haven't seen that you disclosed carl stokes his letter of the 30th of january 2017

00:53:35 2017 to the gtla that's right isn't it we don't think you did i don't recall but maybe not no do you know why you didn't disclose carl stokes his letter i assumed because we'd

00:53:46 stokes his letter i assumed because we'd left the comp that aspect of the complaint open and wanted to review the matter on completion so we could confirm back at that stage right now you refer to the fact that the

00:53:57 right now you refer to the fact that the lfb had confirmed that the proposals were acceptable were you aware that the lfb had told janice ray that they were not happy with the gas riser because it was in the means of escape

00:54:08 escape no i wasn't aware of that let's look at tm01001

00:54:12 tm01001 6548 then please

00:54:41 have you looking at this email chain this is a chain of emails between janice ray and john allen in early april 2017. i tell you you didn't see these but just

00:54:52 i tell you you didn't see these but just looking at the first email on that page four paragraphs down janice ray is telling john allen lfb is saying though not yet in writing that they are unhappy about the rise of being on the means of escape

00:55:03 being on the means of escape but as it is already installed not sure this will have any input perhaps you means impact i don't know did you know that the lfb had said

00:55:14 did you know that the lfb had said what she has recorded there as saying to john allen um i'm not aware right but we were unhappy it was there

00:55:27 right but we were unhappy it was there as well

00:55:28 as well now you referred in your email i've just shown you to keeping the complaint open until the work was completed how are the complaints have been dealt with after the works were completed

00:55:39 um well in in the complaint i'm explaining the work that will be done as part of the

00:55:49 the national grid works and what we wanted to do was to have the opportunity to to inspect that and get any views of any other authorities on that matter before them before closing the complaint

00:56:00 before them before closing the complaint so we want to ensure that it was resolved

00:56:03 resolved if the subject matter of the complaint was the location of the works themselves how would

00:56:08 how would the complaint have been dealt with after the works were completed because it would allow the complaint it would

00:56:15 would allow the works to be inspected and assessed as to whether they meet the standards

00:56:23 standards so you'd proceed with the works finish them off and then inspect them and see if they

00:56:27 if they complied with the standard was that how you were thinking of it well the the final piece of the works as i understood at this time was to choose to install the fire rated um

00:56:39 choose to install the fire rated um boxing around the pipe work and that work was underway i understood and not complete so does that tell us that in fact the way you say you were keeping the complaint open you were only keeping it partly open

00:56:50 keeping it partly open in other words you'd already decided to keep the pipes in the stairwell um but make sure that they were boxed in properly it was my decision i wouldn't have had the pipes there i would have would have had the gas

00:57:01 i would have would have had the gas removed from the from the building altogether so it wasn't my choice this was something that the national grid imposed and they were inflexible around this said this was the only place i could go

00:57:12 said this was the only place i could go and we had no choice really in this matter i was really just seeking to understand how your complaints procedure was working you said you would keep the complaint open but in fact it's right i think we're telling us that the only aspect of the

00:57:23 telling us that the only aspect of the complaint that you were keeping open was the question of the efficacy of the fire stopping around the boxing

00:57:31 yes yes um can i just ask you then finally a final topic about the self-closer on flat 136 can we look please at your first witness statement

00:57:42 please at your first witness statement of page 28

00:57:50 you say in paragraph 148 there this there was also a concern raised about an empty flat door being left open over a weekend and concerned that there was no door

00:58:01 and concerned that there was no door closer working to close the door the concern expressed was in relation to security rather than any issue of fire safety

00:58:09 safety this was investigated and it was established that a ryden contractor had worked in the flat following flooding from the repositioning on the hiu in the flat above and had left the front door open the door closer was repaired and an

00:58:22 the door closer was repaired and an apology was given ryden were instructed to ensure it did not happen again

00:58:29 now you're referring here aren't you i think to a concern or issue raised by edward de farn in relation to flat 136 which was next door to his yes and that

00:58:40 which was next door to his yes and that flat at the time was empty wasn't it it was void

00:58:43 was void yes now your evidence here as we've seen it on the page is that the door closer was repaired yes um that's what you say i

00:58:57 i think that's incorrect and that i didn't check that at all closer was repaired

00:59:02 repaired why did you say it was that's incorrect i might that's been wrongly administered wrongly noted that well what what should it have said um the door the door was closed

00:59:15 um the door the door was closed and the apology was given that was what that was what was detailed in the response to mr defan so yeah that's um that's that's a mistake in my witness that can you explain how that happened yes

00:59:27 can you explain how that happened yes how did you make that mistake can you explain why your i think my solicitors have directed that wrong when you read this statement i had assumed perhaps wrongly that you'd read it very carefully before signing it it's a very long statement i'm sorry it

00:59:39 it's a very long statement i'm sorry it is to be fair to you it is a long statement

00:59:41 statement it's 52 pages long but you didn't pick that up i didn't pick that up

01:00:06 um can we look at mr ed defon's complaints then tmo double zero eight three zero 830538 please

01:00:27 um this is uh that's the beginning of it um can we look at page seven please in that email run

01:00:37 run or document run um it's an email to you sorry in email uh from starts at the top of page eight in

01:00:49 from starts at the top of page eight in fact it's rather misleading it looks as if it starts at the top bottom of page seven

01:00:53 seven actually starts at the top of page eight

01:00:58 and it's a it's a long email to fairly kafidia of the 2nd of september timed at 11. um

01:01:12 uh timed at 1651. you see that and your response to him is on page seven and then i think this is his complaint

01:01:23 and then i think this is his complaint is

01:01:24 is i've misled you this is his response to my my response you're right you're right this is page eight is his complaint second of september uh and uh page seven is your response to it

01:01:35 it um now you say in your response in the third paragraph i've investigated this matter and ryden acknowledged that they left the door open in error and apologized for this mistake the door was in working order

01:01:47 was in working order and was able to be closed by pulling it shut

01:01:50 shut what investigations did you carry out into that complaint um i spoke to simon lawrence in relation to the issues that were raised from ryden's

01:02:03 raised from ryden's and he confirmed to me that they left the door open in error um but it was

01:02:11 it was they were able to close the door did you speak to mr dufan i didn't why is that um i don't recall

01:02:27 now you said here that the door was in working order

01:02:33 uh but you said in your statements i've shown you that the the self-closing device required repair you've now said that that particle statement is an error when did you first discover

01:02:44 you first discover that that part of your statement was an error this is the first time i've read it

01:02:49 it right how did you conclude at the time 2nd of september 2015 that the door was able to be closed by pulling it shut because that's what simon lawrence told me right

01:03:05 if we go to tm00830538

01:03:14 please

01:03:22 uh at page

01:03:34 uh which is what you're responding to no uh you're right this is what he is responding to i think uh

01:03:44 uh this is his response to me his response to you uh

01:03:47 to you uh he can he he starts by saying dear mr philia i would like to complain to you that mr madison from the tma has responded to my concerns with regards to the front door of 136 grenfell tower being left open over the weekend of the

01:03:58 being left open over the weekend of the 17th of august with a complete pack of lies

01:04:01 lies in mr madison's email to me he claims that the front door was not broken and was simply left open this is just not true

01:04:08 not true and it would appear that he has not taken the time to read my explanation of what happened when i first found the door to be open as i explained in my original complaint to the tmo i tried pulling the door shut and it was broken i made this point

01:04:20 and it was broken i made this point perfectly clear when i phoned the out of hours team and when i informed my neighbours and local councillors maybe mr madison is calling me a liar i would like to ensure that his complaint is taken to level two

01:04:31 complaint is taken to level two this complaint is taken to level two and the tmo apologized for lying to me and get their contractor right and to tell the truth and admit the door was unable to shut and therefore remained open all weekend

01:04:42 open all weekend i'm also completely dissatisfied with the investigation that mr madison conducted with regards to the totally unacceptable response that i received from the out of hours team and would like the conduct of the work and the response of the tmo on the

01:04:53 work and the response of the tmo on the night of the 28th of august we properly investigate it i've read that to you at some length did anybody at the tmo within the tmo ask you about the complaint um

01:05:06 ask you about the complaint um i'm sure if it was considered at the next stage they would have spoken to me about it

01:05:10 about it i don't remember who that was i don't remember the conversation did anybody specifically ask you that what to tell them what you that to tell them what you had done to satisfy

01:05:21 them what you had done to satisfy yourself

01:05:22 yourself that the door closer was not broken um i don't remember that now can we look at page nine please in this email run

01:05:32 email run which is uh the complaint team's response on behalf of sasha jevons

01:05:51 of sasha jevons uh to mr de france the second part of the page

01:05:54 the page on page nine did you see that [Applause] yeah and uh it's from the although and it's from the complaints group or complaints team

01:06:07 complaints group or complaints team and it says in the second half of the first paragraph i have investigated the matter

01:06:11 matter and considered that mr madison's assessment of the situation was correct and at the door of one 136 i should say was in working order and was able to be closed by pulling shut i therefore do not uphold your complaint

01:06:24 i therefore do not uphold your complaint did you play any part in writing that response nothing i remember not that you remember so it's possible is that right you might have done no i don't

01:06:33 don't right i don't think i did do you know who it was who actually investigated

01:06:40 i don't you know what they did i don't do you know what the factual basis was of the statement that your assessment was correct i don't

01:06:53 the complaint was escalated to stage three wasn't it i don't know you don't know

01:07:05 do you remember whether anyone from the tma asked you about anything to do with the stage three complaints process in respect to this complaint i can't remember did anybody from the tma actually inspect the door

01:07:18 tma actually inspect the door at any stage of this complaints process i don't know did anybody speak to mr dufan directly about his complaint during this complaints process my role was to deal with the stage one complaint

01:07:29 was to deal with the stage one complaint which i did and i think that that's the extent of my involvement did anybody carry out any independent investigation into this complaint

01:07:37 complaint as i said my my knowledge and understanding is just dealing with stage one

01:07:42 one given mr defan's evident extreme upset of being contradicted on a matter he had himself observed at first hand do you remember whether any steps were taken

01:07:53 any steps were taken either by you or anyone else at the tmo to meet mr dufan and explain to him why you consider that his observation that the door closer was broken was wrong that explained my understanding from

01:08:06 that explained my understanding from my investigation at stage one by talking to ryden's i'd explain that in writing to mr defan

01:08:15 that was the extent of my involvement here

01:08:20 have you changed your evidence about the door closer needing to be repaired that we saw in your statement having heard mr dufan examined on it i don't see what i would have heard that would have made me change my evidence

01:08:32 would have made me change my evidence but identifying the fact that it was repaired rather indicated that it was broken and that in fact you were wrong at the time now the my statement was wrong i had no reason to believe that my expectation

01:08:45 reason to believe that my expectation was

01:08:46 was and that as our property was empty it was

01:08:50 was ryden's were working in there because there'd been a flood from above and any works to that door would have been done as part of the voice work to that property so that would have been dealt with through repairs direct as

01:09:01 dealt with through repairs direct as part of the void drop so it wouldn't have been dealt with as part of horizons or any of the works where items were doing in that property i feel bad to suggest to you that

01:09:14 i feel bad to suggest to you that when you said in your statement that the door was repaired that was true and that was true because it was broken earlier

01:09:23 i don't know i didn't inspect it i took at face value i i had i was in a position where i had mr defan

01:09:30 mr defan saying one thing i had ryden's saying another

01:09:33 another and there didn't seem to be any way that i could resolve those two i it didn't seem like um an issue that i couldn't see any alternative way of resolving the the

01:09:45 alternative way of resolving the the impasse between the two views what i did was apologize for the door clearly shouldn't have been left left open over the weekend and i passed on that apology and i certainly didn't call mr the final

01:10:00 liar yes mr madison thank you um i've come to the end of my prepared questions chairman uh it would be appropriate then

01:10:11 chairman uh it would be appropriate then to take i think the afternoon break and the question break at the same time and perhaps have a slightly longer afternoon well i would again suggest we could break for 20 minutes this time yes yes and if we need if we need more time because i appreciate it's been a

01:10:22 time because i appreciate it's been a long time

01:10:23 long time i hope there won't be a request for even more time quite well we'll never notice but

01:10:27 but i'll come back to you if i need more time but yeah i'm great all right thank you very much well now mr madison mr millett's got to the end of what he thinks he needs to ask you but as you know only too well

01:10:38 know only too well there may be some further questions so we'll break now until half past three and then we'll see whether more questions for you at that stage okay and as before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence thank you

01:10:50 anyone about your evidence thank you all right thank you very much

01:11:00 all right come from sweden please okay

01:32:55 would you ask mr madison to come back in

01:33:06 please

01:33:10 right mr madison we'll see if there are any more questions for you yes mr miller yes

01:33:14 yes um just one or two mr madison um can we get back to the topic of the flat front door at flat 136 and go back to where we were which

01:33:26 136 and go back to where we were which is tmo double zero eight three zero five three eight a page nine which is the response to mr defan about his insecure

01:33:38 to mr defan about his insecure front door observation where we were and i

01:33:41 i read to you the last sentence of or the last but one sentence of the main paragraph there i'll just read it to you again it says i've investigated the matter and considered that mr madison was and considered that mr madison's assessment

01:33:53 considered that mr madison's assessment of the situation was correct and that the door of 136 was in working order

01:34:00 order and was able to be closed by pulling shut my question is this uh if uh it had to be pulled if it had to be pulled shut did you not realize at the time that it was

01:34:12 you not realize at the time that it was a

01:34:12 a it was no longer a self-closing fire

01:34:16 door this wasn't my response this was the this is the response to the stage two from sasha jevens

01:34:27 from sasha jevens um yeah all right well let's use yours then

01:34:30 then let's go to page seven which is your email

01:34:34 email in response to his on page eight yes and the fourth paragraph you say in the second sentence the door was in working order and was able to be closed by pulling it

01:34:45 and was able to be closed by pulling it shut

01:34:46 shut did you not realize at the time that if a door had to be pulled shut then its self-closure was not working um it didn't specifically

01:34:57 um it didn't specifically occur to me at the time but but in the context that this was an empty property so it was going to be refurbished and part of the void standard was to check the door closer so my assumption would

01:35:11 the door closer so my assumption would have been

01:35:12 have been that any work required to the door would be done as part of the void works right so at this stage i'd understood the complaint was about um that had been left open and

01:35:25 um that had been left open and potentially vulnerable to antisocial behavior the short-term solution of that was to close the door which is what ryden did and then my assumption would be that the door closer and any other issues

01:35:36 the door closer and any other issues will be repaired will be dealt with as part of the voidworks

01:35:47 nonetheless did it not indicate to you that this was a flat which had a front door which wasn't a fully operating self-cleansing door

01:35:58 a fully operating self-cleansing door i'm not in hindsight yes right but that we don't know the cause of that door closer being not working or disabled and my assumption was that it would be repaired

01:36:10 assumption was that it would be repaired as part of the void works that was your assumption was it yes did you take it up with anybody did you go to janice ray and say urgently uh we have a flat front door

01:36:21 urgently uh we have a flat front door with a closer that's broken it needs to be sorted out well it would have been dealt with as part of the voice works as it would have been

01:36:27 been do you yourself know that it was that wasn't my area of responsibility did you take this to somebody else did you take this problem to the people doing the void's work copy to janus ray and say here is a flat

01:36:39 to janus ray and say here is a flat front door that is not compliant with the fire safety strategy no i didn't i knew that it was covered in the fire safety strategy that doors

01:36:48 doors door closers would be addressed as part of voidworks now i asked you some questions last week about the report into health and safety prepared by

01:36:59 prepared by by matt hodgson in 2013 for the tmo do you remember that exchange yes we will look please at tmo one triple zero three one

01:37:10 zero three one two four that's the report itself i'll just put it back in front of you to refresh your recollection

01:37:22 uh there it is uh and uh this was discussed wasn't it at an executive

01:37:28 executive team meeting in august 2013. do you remember that i don't remember the following month but let's look at the minutes of it it's tm00899807

01:37:46 this is the first page you were not at this meeting which is probably why you don't remember it being discussed at it but i want to ask you something about it um

01:37:54 um if you um go to the foot of the page you'll see the topic point 1.4 health and safety report do you see that yes

01:38:05 do you see that yes and uh it says although there was a lot of operational action in the report it did not help us with the organizational structure stroke management then it says this

01:38:17 management then it says this peter madison was concerned that the fire risk assessments were substandard and could put the organization at risk there was also some concern that high risk blocks were being classified as low risk

01:38:27 risk and vice versa however the fire brigade had approved our processes but there was a concern that a and r that's assets and regeneration of course that were being bogged down with actions

01:38:39 that were being bogged down with actions which were not addressing the situation it was agreed to set up a meeting with matt hodgson peter madison of janus ray to discuss the way forward peter had suggested

01:38:48 suggested that he take on responsibility for all areas

01:38:51 areas including asbestos and fire risk which was still with janice ray and janice ray would have a more strategic role and work with the fire brigade

01:39:00 brigade the possibility of adrian bowman transferring to a r to be considered so that peter madison could resource this area of work governance would be the reorganized health and safety committee and also the a

01:39:10 a r health and safety group which sasha jevons would review and share herself matt hodgson's report to reflect this structure any actions from the anr group to be referred to the health and safety committee or executive

01:39:21 health and safety committee or executive team and then you see the action people are sj

01:39:25 are sj and ap now you weren't at the meeting as we've seen but do you remember making the executive team aware of the concerns about the fras that you see

01:39:37 concerns about the fras that you see reflected in this minute yes and i think it was the there were some of the concerns that we discussed last week

01:39:44 last week relating to the processes and yeah um yeah

01:39:47 yeah so i think they're quite consistent why did you say that the uh fras was substandard they are my words these are clearly third-party words all right

01:39:58 third-party words all right um they are third-party words but they can clearly reflect something that the people who wrote the note were at the meeting understood from you did you well were you concerned at the time that

01:40:10 well were you concerned at the time that the fire risk assessments were substandard i was concerned that some of the actions weren't easy to interpret so there were actions to go and investigate rather than actions to go and do

01:40:20 and do and i wanted them to be more precise so we could streamline that process of allocating the works to contractors and getting the actions dealt with in the quickest way possible

01:40:34 did you express the view that the fire risk assessments could put the tmo at risk

01:40:41 um i don't think i i don't think that was they were my words but

01:40:48 words but i think it's true if the fire risk assessments weren't being managed effectively they would create a risk do you know how your concerns well whether your concerns as expressed here were addressed um

01:41:01 as expressed here were addressed um well the proposal to make the changes to the team that were suggested here weren't put in place no so

01:41:09 so um so what happened they were clearly considered by sasha and anthony parks and my understanding was that there was a decision made that they wanted to be separation between the

01:41:20 separation between the delivery teams and the health and the health and safety teams and that was strat structure was maintained right so the upshot of this was that this didn't happen it didn't happen no as i think was clear

01:41:32 it didn't happen no as i think was clear from last week but you nonetheless did express according to this note concerns that the fire risk assessments were substandard

01:41:43 such as you had them were you ever satisfied that the concerns as had been reflected here were addressed

01:41:50 addressed in any way i think a lot of progress was made in improving the situation it was always something that needs to needed to be improved and it did um and some of the

01:42:01 um and some of the the documents and the the the figures that we looked at last week showed that there was a significantly improving situation right so you say this wasn't taken on by your department

01:42:13 department not by my department by the executive right

01:42:16 right so can we get to tmo double zero eight four nine seven nine eight

01:42:27 eight four nine seven nine eight now this is a minute of the executive team 18th september 2013

01:42:35 and we can see that uh um you in fact are not present or in attendance but you do actually appear at it to address the meeting on a r matters if we go to

01:42:48 the meeting on a r matters if we go to item

01:42:49 item two please on page two it says peter madison attended for this item and was made and made a presentation an overview was given on the work that was required

01:43:00 given on the work that was required health and safety compliance and and the project plan for each area you see that yes and if we um then turn to page six please

01:43:11 to page six please it continues this is all under your presentation and on page

01:43:22 six

01:43:26 at the top of the page the last bullet point

01:43:29 point down it says the clienting of fire risk assessments had been taken over by a r which were due to be completed by mid-october uh i've assumed that it was you who

01:43:41 uh i've assumed that it was you who presented that item is that right well that's not that's not correct

01:43:46 correct no i didn't minute this no i know you didn't minute it mr mendes i'm just wondering whether it's right that it actually records this as part of the presentation you gave

01:43:56 you gave starts um on page two no we had no rolling client in the fire risk assessment well

01:44:09 looking then um at page five you can see that this bullet point i'm putting to you falls under the heading time scale for compliance do you see

01:44:21 compliance do you see yes and fire risk is the second of those topics q1 2014 yes yes

01:44:32 and you could see in the bullet points below that second bullet point done it says however we could be at risk if something went wrong i.e at grenfell tower

01:44:39 tower we'd carried out a fire risk assessment but one year later another inspection discovered that none of the actions have been carried out

01:44:47 unfortunately this information had been conveyed to the grenfell tower action group

01:44:52 group are you sure this isn't something that you presented on none of those are my words

01:44:56 words do you know who they are the person who ministered at the meeting i assume well let's go back to the attendees at the top of page one please present are robert black yvonne birch sasha javens and anthony parks

01:45:07 sasha javens and anthony parks with angela bosniak shakarez and jane clifton in attendance jane clifton would have taken the minute can you tell us who was it was

01:45:20 can you tell us who was it was addressing the meeting on them on those matters if it wasn't you

01:45:25 you um i could have been presenting something to the meeting or i could or sasha may have been presenting something that i prepared for her but those minutes are inaccurate i mean then because i would only go to

01:45:38 i mean then because i would only go to an executive team meeting for a discrete item um i wouldn't have the opportunity to correct any minutes so i wouldn't have seen the minutes right

01:45:48 right [Music]

01:45:50 [Music] can you ex can you help us understand what it means when it says clienting of fire risks fire risk assessments had been taken over by ernr i can't because it doesn't make any sense because it didn't happen

01:46:10 okay

01:46:19 all right just give me one moment something i need just to check general question did you ever consider

01:46:31 general question did you ever consider providing the fire risk assessment reports

01:46:35 reports to grenfell tower residents when responding to their complaints about fire safety

01:46:41 um which complaints about fire safety are you referring to any um if it had been relevant i mean not many of the complaints were specifically about fire

01:46:53 complaints were specifically about fire safety

01:46:54 safety um the

01:46:58 um the in fact i'm struggling to think which ones were about fire safety well the aov the nut floor floor numbering gas risers we've been through them today so none of

01:47:12 we've been through them today so none of them would have been i mean what we what we did in each of those instances is got a report from the fire risk assessor rather than which was a more bespoke response

01:47:23 which was a more bespoke response on that issue from an expert rather than giving a

01:47:27 giving a broader more dense document which was a fire risk assessment so i think we did listen and communicated to residents was precisely i also

01:47:39 residents was precisely i also did similar things with the in the dialogue with david collins in relation to the relocation of the hius and i got several reports to address his

01:47:51 got several reports to address his concerns

01:47:52 concerns responding to fire safety issues so i i no we didn't i didn't specifically give the fire risk assessment although we did the 2012 one was

01:48:03 we did the 2012 one was communicated to mr o'connor it was um but what we did was we did procured more precise legal um sorry technical reports from

01:48:14 legal um sorry technical reports from our fire risk assessor to respond specifically to those questions yes thank you very much mr madison i i only have one more question for you and it's

01:48:23 it's it's a question i think i asked you at the end of module one in relation to those matters but looking at all the matters we've covered during the course of your module three evidence over the last what is now

01:48:34 evidence over the last what is now two and a half days uh is there anything looking back on it now that you would have done differently i've tried to be as candid as i can over quite an extensive dialogue over the last couple of days

01:48:45 dialogue over the last couple of days and i mean my answer is that i would have done anything and everything possible to have avoided this tragedy and i really um think about it every day that's all well mr madison it remains

01:48:58 that's all well mr madison it remains only for me to thank you very much for coming

01:49:00 coming to the inquiring and inquiry and assisting us with our module three questions so thank you very much indeed for doing that thank you thank you and mr medicine it's right i should thank you on behalf of

01:49:11 right i should thank you on behalf of all of us on the panel for coming here for a second time to give your evidence and i know it's taken rather longer than you were originally led to expect i'm sorry about that but there's a lot of material to cover

01:49:22 there's a lot of material to cover and we're very grateful to you for giving so much of your time it's been very helpful to hear from you thank you thank you very much indeed

01:49:41 thank you mr millet well that's it for today i think isn't it that's it for today

01:49:44 today uh and tomorrow we have miss grange who will be asking uh the expert mr sakula or sakula i think this is the right way of pronouncing his name uh some questions

01:49:55 some questions on the subject of cladding good thank you very much well we'll do that at 10 o'clock tomorrow thank you

01:50:22 you