Evidence from Claire Richards (CEO of Clement James Center) and Mark Sims (CEO of Rugby Portobello Trust) on the emergency response to the Grenfell Tower fire and coordination failures.
00:00:22 yes it's islam can i call miss claire richards please thank you
00:00:36 good afternoon miss richards you're going to take the oath i think it should be a testament there would you take it in your right hand please and read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth
00:00:48 evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please sit down and make yourself
00:00:56 comfortable right yes mrs islam when you're ready thank you thank you miss richards for attending today to give evidence to the inquiry by way of introduction please keep up your voice so we can get a a
00:01:09 keep up your voice so we can get a a record of what you're saying on the transcript it also helps not to nod but to say yes or no again so we can capture your evidence if any of my questions are unclear please let me know and i'll ask them in
00:01:21 please let me know and i'll ask them in a different way and if you need a break at any time again please let me know and we can accommodate that thank you is that okay yes thank you you've made one statement to the inquiry that's dated the 7th of february 2020.
00:01:33 that's dated the 7th of february 2020. if we could go to that please it's at
00:01:39 zero cvscfv000 one two is that your statement yes
00:01:45 yes and can we turn to page twenty five please
00:02:04 it can sometimes take a moment don't worry
00:02:29 there we go um is that your signature it is and have you had the opportunity to read your statement recently i have and can you confirm that the contents are true to the best of your knowledge yes i
00:02:40 true to the best of your knowledge yes i can confirm thank you we're going to deal with some background matters first can you confirm that at the time of the fire you were the ceo of the clement james center that's right
00:02:53 james center that's right and how were you the ceo of the center for please oh um well by february of this year i've been ceo of the center for 23 years so very long time so it's right to say that
00:03:04 very long time so it's right to say that your entire career has been in the charity sector um i was formerly a teacher but yeah many years in the charity sector here and is it right that the cjc the clement
00:03:16 and is it right that the cjc the clement james center is a charity that supports local families through education employment and other well-being programs that's right yes and is it correct that the saint
00:03:27 and is it correct that the saint clements church is at the same site as the the center that's right thank you going to turn now to ask you about the centre's involvement in
00:03:38 about the centre's involvement in emergency planning prior to the grenfell tower fire had the centre been involved with any emergency planning or training with rbkc no i was aware that we were on a list of
00:03:53 no i was aware that we were on a list of centers that would be opened in the case of an emergency but that was literally offering a space there was no training attached to that and no role as far as i was aware
00:04:04 far as i was aware for us to play other than opening you know other than handing over the keys and allowing the center to be used yes and you deal with that in your statement if we could go to that please at paragraph five
00:04:16 paragraph five on page two
00:04:20 you say i was aware that the cjc was on a list of designated emergency centers in the borough as we received a phone call each year to check that we were still happy to be on the list and to ask
00:04:31 still happy to be on the list and to ask about the facilities that we had accessibility and the details for an out of hours contact as far as i was aware this did not involve any staffing or response just a
00:04:42 involve any staffing or response just a willingness to offer the space in the case of an emergency is that right that's correct and is it correct and it's there at the bottom of your statement and we'll come back to that it was an out of hours contact
00:04:54 contact should our bkc need those details in the event of an emergency yes that is correct
00:05:00 correct were you ever contacted by a keith robbins or anyone else from rbkc and directly asked to be involved with any community resilience planning or any
00:05:11 any community resilience planning or any other contingency planning by rbkc no and i did check with my staff team and they weren't contacted either
00:05:22 and prior to the fire had she would have received that type of contact from somebody at rbkc how would you have responded to that request for assistance yes absolutely i mean
00:05:33 mean any training of that nature would be hopefully never needed but you know would be helpful and is it right to say that had you have been approached you you and the center would have been willing to get involved and supported
00:05:44 willing to get involved and supported any way possible absolutely thank you turning now then please to the 14th of june
00:05:52 june is it right that soon after the fire started it was the vicar of the church that began to invite survivors and displaced people to the center yes that's right about two in the morning i think
00:06:03 think and it quite quickly after that the center staff and volunteers began to arrive to support people is that right that's correct and if you were able to assist us with this how many staff
00:06:14 this how many staff and volunteers were involved with the respect response on the 14th of june um so all staff from the clement james center that weren't on leave so that that left about 30 staff
00:06:26 that left about 30 staff there were also volunteers from we also have a sister charity into universities head office on site so some of the head-off inter-university head office staff came in to support
00:06:38 staff came in to support there were existing volunteers from clement james members of the parish and local people who we knew who came to the center who um offered their support so
00:06:50 their support so all in all there were i don't i mean the numbers of volunteers on the day really peaked and trough throughout the day so it's difficult to say but at any time i would imagine there'd be at least 50 people
00:07:01 people thank you
00:07:02 thank you and in your statement and we don't need to go to it unless you'd like us to you say that you arrived at the center shortly after 7am and that there were a number of staff and volunteers already supporting residents
00:07:14 volunteers already supporting residents but you weren't aware of anyone from the local authority is that correct that's correct yeah now you've told us earlier about the out of hours contact that rbkc should have been aware of you say in your statement
00:07:27 been aware of you say in your statement that contact was not contacted by the council on the 14th of june is that right that's right and we did check back to make sure that she hadn't missed any messages or
00:07:38 messages or missed a call but that wasn't the case and were you surprised that nobody from rbkc had
00:07:45 rbkc had made that contact nor had attended the center at the point that you had got there
00:07:50 there yes i mean i have to say i naively thought there'd be a team of people in the case of an emergency of this scale that would be there to coordinate um but that definitely wasn't the case
00:08:03 um but that definitely wasn't the case is it right to say therefore that the centre's response was entirely voluntary and self-organized yes that is right to say and again in your statement and we don't need to go to it unless you'd like
00:08:15 don't need to go to it unless you'd like us to
00:08:16 us to you say that the church was fil full of displaced residents survivors and family members of the missing and it was about over a hundred people at that point is that right yes that's
00:08:27 at that point is that right yes that's correct
00:08:28 correct so when you had arrived at the center what did you consider the immediate priorities to be for any response for your center um well certainly an accurate record of
00:08:39 an accurate record of who was there where they were from whether they you know
00:08:44 you know did they have somewhere else to go what their needs were whether they were missing anyone and just really attending to the immediate needs that people were
00:08:55 immediate needs that people were presenting obviously there were lots of very distressed people so just a compassionate response there was already um a food and station set up um so you know we could attend to those
00:09:08 um so you know we could attend to those needs and then other needs became apparent as the sort of day progressed um but it was really a case of just assessing what was needed and finding out information where we could
00:09:20 out information where we could thank you and just turning please if we can to paragraph seven where you expand on some of these services that the center was providing
00:09:28 providing you say
00:09:30 you say cjc initially provided shelter care food distribution of donations access to information eg ringing around for people trying to find out information about
00:09:41 trying to find out information about those missing and sending staff to other centres to gather information collection of prescriptions noting specific needs and trying to address them gathering offers of accommodation and allocating
00:09:52 offers of accommodation and allocating some of the offers gathering offers of volunteering and creating a spreadsheet of cjc clients from grenfell tower and trying to establish if they were safe and if so whether there was anything we
00:10:03 and if so whether there was anything we could do to assist them is that right that's correct um and i just want to ask you please some more questions about this spreadsheet of cjc clients from granville tower
00:10:14 granville tower um
00:10:15 um you refer to the spreadsheet and is it correct to say that what you were doing was capturing information about who was present uh whether they were displaced where they were from whether they were missing
00:10:27 they were from whether they were missing anybody that's right yeah and if they had any further needs thank you and and why was it that at this point you considered this to be an important exercise for you to be doing
00:10:39 exercise for you to be doing because there was no one an authority there that was doing that so you had a church full of people who had been displaced and were clearly missing you know lots of
00:10:50 were clearly missing you know lots of people who are missing family members and or trying to find out information about people so it was really important that we took their contact details so that if we
00:11:01 their contact details so that if we became aware of any information we could notify them that we could that we were aware of who people were missing
00:11:07 missing um whether we were aware of you know had they been asked to leave their properties and therefore what were they going to do the next evening i mean had
00:11:18 i mean had had there been a team of officials as i assumed there would be then i guess you know we'd have just been asking them what we could do to assist them but there weren't a team of officials so
00:11:29 there weren't a team of officials so therefore it was important that we took on that role thank you and you say in your statement that there was at some point that a team of tmo staff attended
00:11:40 attended do you remember roughly what time this was on the 14th of june i don't i'm afraid i mean they they were definitely there early in the morning um and they set up a table near the entrance um to the church
00:11:52 the church um
00:11:54 but um
00:11:58 you know they weren't they were there setting up a table at the entrance of the church they weren't running the center they weren't um issuing any instructions or and as i said in my statement i had
00:12:10 and as i said in my statement i had concerns around the sort of um that they didn't they appeared to be missing a lot of people so a lot of people coming in the church and walking straight past the table um
00:12:21 straight past the table um and you know they they didn't seem to be capturing accurately everybody who was coming in and leaving and they didn't seem to have a system a clear system for um
00:12:31 um you know
00:12:32 you know gathering information about people which is why
00:12:36 is why we continued to you know take on that role and i'm going to come back to that in your statement in just a second before we do that can you
00:12:45 you tell me if you remember how many tmo staff members arrived no so they arrived in two phases there was um
00:12:53 was um so the people who arrived early there were
00:12:55 were i don't know probably about four or five round a table maybe i don't think any more than that and then
00:13:02 then then some more tmo staff arrived later in the day who weren't there to interact with the residents they were there i guess to ring around but they asked
00:13:14 i guess to ring around but they asked for a quiet space away from everybody so we placed them in our offices and were they identifiable as tmo staff for example with badges or lanyards or
00:13:25 for example with badges or lanyards or anything like that
00:13:29 i i can't remember to be honest they certainly didn't have a sign or anything but so so i guess they weren't very obvious for people who were entering the space
00:13:40 entering the space um but they they may well have been wearing lanyards i'm not sure did they come and introduce themselves to you when they came to the center is that how you knew they were there they definitely introduced themselves to
00:13:51 they definitely introduced themselves to me at some point yes okay and just going back to some of the concerns that you began to describe if we could turn to paragraph 89 of your statement please that's on page 13.
00:14:06 it's quite a long paragraph but i'm just going to read it out and then ask you some questions about it the tmo staff wrote information on scraps of paper and they didn't appear to have a system
00:14:17 to have a system they didn't seem to be capturing an accurate record of everyone that was arriving at or leaving the site and who they were looking for i offered on a number of occasions for our staff to assist the tmo staff and
00:14:29 our staff to assist the tmo staff and the use of laptops to capture all the information on a spreadsheet they always turned down this offer i therefore asked some staff to go around the site ensuring we had
00:14:40 around the site ensuring we had everyone's information on our spreadsheets including their address whether they were missing anyone and if they had somewhere to stay and i asked the staff on the entrance to the church to note down who was entering and direct
00:14:53 to note down who was entering and direct them to the tmo table and to make a note of anyone who was leaving a member of tma staff saw that we were doing this and asked for our records as she said that only they should be
00:15:04 she said that only they should be collecting this information and that it would be very confusing if there were more than one list we handed over the records as the tmo continued to record their information on scraps of paper with no clear system
00:15:17 scraps of paper with no clear system with the potential to miss residents i continued to offer the assistance of our staff team and laptops they repeatedly turned down this offer they didn't return our records from that morning
00:15:30 return our records from that morning just going to ask you some questions about this passage what was it that made you think that they didn't have a system to capture accurate records was it the fact that they were using what you described as
00:15:42 they were using what you described as scraps of paper or was it something else yeah i mean they didn't they didn't appear to have a spreadsheet that they were capturing consistent information on they were just if the tables that they
00:15:53 they were just if the tables that they were working at looked quite chaotic with scraps of paper over it they were missing lots of people um
00:16:00 um this it was quite chaotic around the table
00:16:04 table as far as i saw i never saw them get up from the table to sort of circulate and capture information and i know that they've said that they were then passing that information on to
00:16:15 then passing that information on to somebody who had a laptop but certainly never witnessed anybody in the church that had a laptop so all i was aware of were scraps of paper with um you know handwritten notes on which
00:16:28 um you know handwritten notes on which concerned me at the time i didn't appreciate that that information was being passed on to sort of another spreadsheet did anybody did any of them explain to you why they were refusing your offer of
00:16:39 you why they were refusing your offer of laptops and staff assistance uh no they were i mean they were quite insistent that they they didn't want any support
00:16:47 support but they didn't say why they just said it was well i suspect they said something like you know it was their responsibility but i can't remember the exact words that they used at the time
00:16:58 at the time do you know if the who the tmo staff member was who asked for your records do you know who that was i don't i'm afraid do you know what they did with your records
00:17:07 records no i don't and you've touched on this but is it right to say that you didn't see anybody with a laptop from the tmo in the office yes so when when the team arrived later in the day and they asked
00:17:19 arrived later in the day and they asked for a quiet space away from everybody they definitely had laptops and phones in the office but i i didn't witness anyone in the church where
00:17:32 anyone in the church where you know where the residents were with the laptop now thank you and over overall what was your impression of the tmo staff who attended the centre on the 14th of june
00:17:44 the centre on the 14th of june it was
00:17:45 it was difficult to form an opinion because i wasn't sitting at their table so um
00:17:49 um i was just concerned because they didn't seem to have a plan um and it just yeah it
00:17:56 it didn't seem very organized and they
00:18:03 i just assumed an organization that was looking after the residents would actually have some information to share with the residents
00:18:11 residents and
00:18:11 and [Music]
00:18:13 [Music] you know have a sort of duty of care um
00:18:18 and yeah that that just wasn't apparent did tma staff attend the following day on the 15th or any other days of that week as far as you're aware um
00:18:29 um certainly not to be available to residents i think
00:18:35 i think that
00:18:36 that some staff may have come the second day the following day to ask for a quiet office space again but they said that so on the second day we shifted out of so the church just
00:18:48 we shifted out of so the church just became a sorting space for donations and all focus of support was shifted to the center building um and the garden and the tmo definitely were not
00:19:00 and the tmo definitely were not in any spaces that um resident where we were supporting residents
00:19:06 residents can you just explain that is the center in the church hall no so that there's a there's a site and there's the church and next to the church there's a garden and a main building
00:19:17 garden and a main building um so the center on a you know average day occupies the main building and the garden and share some offices with the church and the church kindly make um the church space available for us um for
00:19:30 church space available for us um for workshops and things but actually mainly we're situated in a sort of main building that's behind the church and a garden right and when the uh i'm sorry to just take over from it but when the
00:19:41 to just take over from it but when the church was opened it was opened by the vicar yes
00:19:45 vicar yes and do you know did he open the body of the church as well as what i'm going to think of as the hall or the building so we so that he opened the uh the church building i'm
00:19:56 he opened the uh the church building i'm not sure if he opened the main the the the charity building or the garden we suddenly kept their garden gates locked on the first day and
00:20:07 and other than some food being cooked in the garden
00:20:10 garden most you know most people were in the church until it became apparent that so many physical donations were arriving so the next day we switched so that we sort of separated
00:20:21 we switched so that we sort of separated the site so all physical donations were in the church and then we could support people in the main building of the charity and the garden
00:20:30 garden so what i really wanted to understand was this when people came to the center they had to enter through the church door today they did the first day
00:20:41 door today they did the first day on the 14th but then subsequently on the from the 15th onwards they would enter through the garden which would be how they'd they'd normally enter when they were entering the clement james center so that they'd
00:20:53 the clement james center so that they'd be used to entering that way right
00:20:56 right and and when the um people from the tmo came they set up their table presumably just inside the church door yes yeah right thank you that's helpful thank you very much
00:21:08 very much turning now then please to um rbkc presence at the center did you make efforts to contact anybody from rbkc
00:21:18 from rbkc yeah so we at the time we had a trustee who was a former councillor um
00:21:23 um so
00:21:24 so we contacted her to say that we weren't aware of anyone from rbkc um on site on the foot you know early on the 14th and so would she reach out and see if
00:21:36 and so would she reach out and see if she could
00:21:37 she could get some people to come down and then subsequently i got a text at about
00:21:43 about i think
00:21:44 i think around half 10 to say that a team of housing
00:21:50 officials from the borough were coming down to the center and let's go to that text message please if i can take you to uh
00:22:01 cfv0000013 and this is something that you exhibit so it says there hello claire housing team on the way just spoken to and i'm in touch with kiran singh tmo many
00:22:12 in touch with kiran singh tmo many thanks rob shaw did you know who rob shaw was at this point
00:22:18 point um
00:22:19 um i'm not sure i'm not sure if i knew who rob shaw was but i mean that made sense that the housing team and i assumed it was from the borough because we'd asked for
00:22:27 for um people to be sent thank you and that was sent at 10 23. do you remember um roughly what time rbkc came to the center
00:22:39 center the church no i don't think it was that long after that
00:22:44 and just for completeness how did rob shaw come to have your direct phone number
00:22:49 number i expect the trustee will have given um my direct phone number but various counselors at the borough did have my direct phone number so thank
00:23:00 did have my direct phone number so thank you
00:23:00 you and if i can turn you please to paragraph 65 of your statement
00:23:09 on page nine you say the rbkc housing team arrived mid-morning and stood at the back of church i tried to give them the office of private housing and hotel
00:23:20 of private housing and hotel accommodation that we had received they said that they were unable to make use of these offers due to insurance they spent most of the day awaiting instructions from gold command at some
00:23:31 instructions from gold command at some point during the day a team from the rbkc social care team arrived to assess people's needs when you say stood at the back of the church did did their housing team
00:23:43 church did did their housing team make themselves known when they arrived so they made themselves known to me i'm not sure how much they made themselves known to
00:23:54 much they made themselves known to everybody who was in the church but they were standing together at the back of church as far as i remember most of the time awaiting instructions were there were they identifiable as
00:24:07 they identifiable as from as from rbkc for example badges lanyards signs anything like that again definitely not signed they may well have been wearing lanyards but again a bit like the tmo it wouldn't
00:24:19 again a bit like the tmo it wouldn't have been
00:24:20 have been very obvious who they were and they didn't come into the church and announce themselves to the residents for example
00:24:28 example not as far as i remember now what do you mean by they spent most of the day
00:24:35 the day awaiting instructions from gold command how did you know that that's what they were doing because we we were receiving from very early in the morning we were receiving numerous offers of
00:24:46 receiving numerous offers of accommodation we were receiving offers from hotels offers from companies offers from private individuals donors who were willing to open their houses
00:24:58 who were willing to open their houses trustees who were willing to open the home
00:25:02 and so it seemed to make sense to go over to the housing team and say look we've got all these offers of accommodation are you awaiting accommodation because people don't know at the moment
00:25:13 because people don't know at the moment where they're going to be able to stay tonight
00:25:16 tonight but
00:25:17 but they said that they weren't able to take any of those offers due to insurance and that they were and that they were awaiting instructions from gold command
00:25:29 were you aware of whether they were meeting any of the survivors or residents to arrange emergency accommodation they were certainly speaking to some of the um yeah did there appear to you to be a clear
00:25:41 did there appear to you to be a clear system for that process
00:25:46 certainly not until much later in the day
00:25:50 day because
00:25:52 because everything seemed to be stagnant for many many hours during the day well where nobody knew whether anyone was going to be able to go back to their accommodation nobody knew whether any accommodation was going to be provided until
00:26:05 i mean literally there was no information about anything so it was quite a strange situation where we're in you know where we're right next to the lancaster west estate we've got hundreds of distressed
00:26:17 estate we've got hundreds of distressed people
00:26:19 people and there wasn't a single piece of information coming through as to you know
00:26:24 know whether
00:26:26 whether anyone was still alive whether you know whether anyone was going to be accommodated that night whether there was going to be a team of people going to come down and organize everyone
00:26:37 to come down and organize everyone it was it was just a vacuum of information
00:26:43 how effective did you consider the housing team to be
00:26:51 i i i don't know to be honest i mean we certainly had lots of people in the space who didn't know where they were going to be staying that night
00:27:04 do you know what role the rbkc social care team had yeah so they they seemed more proactive in the sense that they were when they arrived they were circulating so they seemed to be
00:27:15 seemed to be um
00:27:16 um making sure that they spoke to absolutely everyone within the space and assessed whether they had any particular needs so we were very aware of them actually
00:27:27 so we were very aware of them actually moving around the space and making themselves known and introducing themselves to people yes and did the housing team or the social care team come back the next day or in the days following
00:27:38 the days following following
00:27:40 following no we didn't see anyone from rbkc housing or social care the next day or in the days following in the rest of the week
00:27:49 the week no eventually um the nhs set up a sort of drop in at various times at the center but i think that was many days afterwards
00:28:01 many days afterwards i guess because you know the west way had been set up as the designated center so all
00:28:08 all you know all statutory services were focused within the west way yes after the 14th
00:28:14 the 14th turning now please to then um the topic of a representative from hammersmith and fulham which which you mentioned we could go to paragraph 69 of your statement please that's on page 10.
00:28:29 you say at some at some point during the day a lady arrived at the center saying she was a trained emergency center coordinator from hammersmith and fulham she didn't bring any equipment with her
00:28:40 she didn't bring any equipment with her but said that she was awaiting instructions from gold command throughout the day i asked if she had any information or had heard from gold command she never had any information and i wasn't aware of her making any
00:28:52 and i wasn't aware of her making any decisions
00:28:53 decisions do you know who instructed this person to attend
00:28:56 to attend no i don't and if we could go to paragraph 138 please on page 21
00:29:08 you say the lady who described herself as a trained emergency center coordinator eventually heard from gold command in the early evening to say that the site should be closed and that any displaced residents who were not staying
00:29:20 displaced residents who were not staying in hotels should make their way to the westway sports centre as some residents were distressed and didn't wish to leave the site we kept the site open
00:29:32 did this person provide any assistance to you at all in terms of your response i mean literally not a single piece of information not a single instruction we were so
00:29:44 not a single instruction we were so excited when she arrived because we thought here's someone who's actually trained and official she's going to come with you know lots of information about what's actually happening and it will make sure that you know it will mean
00:29:55 make sure that you know it will mean that we can support everyone so much more effectively but unfortunately um she just spent the whole day saying that she was waiting for instruction so what exactly was she doing during the
00:30:06 so what exactly was she doing during the day was she did she did you allocate her in office was she meeting people she was standing at the back of church um and
00:30:14 and periodically i just and i'm sure other staff were as well just going over to her and asking her if she had any information yet but um not until early evening did she have any information and all that was was to
00:30:26 any information and all that was was to say that the center needed to close and at that point when she was saying that people needed to go to the westway sports centre are you able to say roughly how many people were without
00:30:37 people were without hotel accommodation and were being directed to the westway centre i
00:30:44 i i don't think there were many people because
00:30:48 because we'd
00:30:49 we'd as well as the housing team allocating housing we'd allocated because by about half full we hadn't been notified that actually people would be provided with accommodation
00:31:00 provided with accommodation so rightly or wrongly we took the initiative to use some of the offers that we've been taking if people were happy to take those offers and we just made sure that we took note of exactly
00:31:11 made sure that we took note of exactly who they were who they were going to be staying with what address they'd be staying
00:31:15 staying at
00:31:16 at so i don't think there were too many people so just so i'm clear um you and others at the center arranged accommodation for some people some people yeah do you know roughly for how many people that was
00:31:28 how many people that was no i'm afraid not i mean we'd have records of it but i do i don't know okay and do you know if anybody stayed at the center overnight
00:31:40 center overnight um people definitely stayed after we were asked to close the center and decided not to i
00:31:47 i don't think people stayed all night in the end
00:31:52 and how would you assess the coordination of the official response provision of support and availability of information by the end of 14th of june
00:32:02 well i'm sure there were all sorts of marvelous things happening behind the scenes
00:32:08 scenes but
00:32:09 but from the perspective of us on the ground at a rest center there was a total absence of any information whatsoever thank you
00:32:20 thank you turning then please to the 15th of june and the rest of the week is it right to say that the centre continued to provide various types of support to those affected
00:32:31 support to those affected to everyone that came and needed it absolutely and in your statement and i won't take you to it until we need to unless we need to but you outline some of the issues that
00:32:43 but you outline some of the issues that you came to know about about the support being provided for some of these people and these issues included a need for information to be provided in various community languages is that
00:32:55 various community languages is that right yes that's right people were feeling isolated in hotels and also unhappy about being above the ground floor is that right absolutely there were also issues with the absence
00:33:06 there were also issues with the absence of cooking facilities is that right that's correct and evacuated residents reported issues about shower facilities and things like that is that right that's right
00:33:17 that's right another another issue you say that you became aware of was no real time information which led to a lot of confusion
00:33:25 confusion about numbers of missing money benefits and accommodation is that correct that's right and lastly you say leaseholders felt excluded as they weren't clear about
00:33:36 excluded as they weren't clear about what the position was in respect of them is that right that's correct another key issue you raised in your statement was a lack of clarity about basic needs such as food and drink
00:33:47 about basic needs such as food and drink provision in hotels you give an example of someone reporting that they had run up bills for food and drink but then told it was not included is that right that's correct
00:34:04 were you aware of any evacuated residents coming to the center
00:34:11 center and
00:34:12 and reporting any issues with the tmo not addressing their concerns with their properties such as water and gas yes i mean we had lots of people coming to the center saying
00:34:23 saying that you know they didn't have cooking facilities they didn't have washing facilities that they weren't um they had been told that they could um wash at the
00:34:34 told that they could um wash at the westway sports center but for a whole host of reasons um
00:34:39 um you know they weren't very keen to do that so we arranged alternative spaces i think the virgin active sports club offered to their shower facilities
00:34:51 offered to their shower facilities thank you and if we could turn please to paragraph 50 on page 7 of your statement and here you're talking about activities on the 19th of june
00:35:04 you say at 1600 i notified staff that people who had been evacuated from the lancaster west estate have been told that they can go home lots don't want to
00:35:16 lots don't want to if this is the case they are under no obligation to do so if they want alternative accommodation the housing team at westway are obliged to sort it out for them where did you get that piece of
00:35:28 where did you get that piece of information from i think for we had um north kensington law centre um were using our site um and i suspect that we will have got
00:35:39 um and i suspect that we will have got that information from north kensington law centre were you aware that there was an earlier decision on the 15th 16th of june that people from the walkways could return home
00:35:53 um
00:35:55 i don't know to be honest but were you aware of there being confusion around walkway residents returning home and issues around them getting hotel accommodation or not yes i mean i was
00:36:07 accommodation or not yes i mean i was certainly aware that it wasn't clear who was eligible for all sorts of things from money to hotel accommodation to a whole range of support we'd we'd certainly tried to get a list
00:36:20 we'd we'd certainly tried to get a list from the borough as to which blocks had been evacuated so that we were really clear
00:36:27 clear about um you know which of our students um
00:36:31 um would have been evacuated and you know we could make sure that we'd contact them and see if there was any support we could offer but we had a great deal of trouble getting clarity over which blocks had been evacuated and who was
00:36:43 blocks had been evacuated and who was allowed back and who wasn't did you ever get a list like that we did get a list but um
00:36:49 but um we got various lists they weren't always accurate um but yeah and turning now please then to some of your observations of the westway
00:37:01 some of your observations of the westway center and the support available there if i could take you to um document
00:37:11 cfv0000039 this is your exhibit cr16 it's an email from councillor catherine fawkes
00:37:20 fawkes 16th of june 2017 at 11 33 and it says dear amanda i am with claire who has had at least four families who know them at
00:37:31 know them at clements and james and don't want to go up to the west way please can we urgently send somewhere down there they are very distressed and saying no one will speak to them we have to take
00:37:43 one will speak to them we have to take on board that a lot of families are scared by the enormous and unfamiliar westway sports center space
00:37:50 space please contact claire copied in did you personally attend the westway centre in the first week following the fire
00:37:59 fire yes
00:38:00 yes i did and what were your observations of the centre as the centralized place for support for those affected well
00:38:08 well i think it was a good idea to have a centralized place for you know one point for information but it was quite an intimidating experience to visit there you were greeted with
00:38:19 to visit there you were greeted with armed police which you know fortunately we're not too familiar with yet and asked to wear a wristband and then all the different services were
00:38:31 and then all the different services were on different tables it just
00:38:35 it didn't have that kind of warm safe space that i'm sure they wanted
00:38:42 wanted to achieve but it felt very yeah it just felt very intimidating to um attend there on your visits to the west bay center did you personally observe armed police
00:38:54 did you personally observe armed police at the entrance
00:38:58 uh and you mentioned in your paragraph in your statement and you've just touched on it now that people had to go from table to table to get information what were your concerns about that as a
00:39:09 what were your concerns about that as a process
00:39:12 well we had had many families who'd lost family members and asking them to go to a space and repeat their story
00:39:23 over and over again it was really inappropriate
00:39:29 sorry it's okay take all the time that you need
00:39:34 i think it's just very distressing for them to have to keep repeating their situation
00:39:39 situation i mean i understand why it was like that you know they'd have a table with the post office table with um
00:39:47 um you know housing table so the intention was right that they had different experts available to people to answer people's questions but actually the reality was that
00:39:59 the reality was that people in a really distressing situation had to
00:40:03 had to keep repeating why they were there and why they needed support whereas
00:40:08 whereas you know they had been at rest centers where
00:40:11 where they'd only have to say once what they needed and then someone may not be able to get it for them straight away but they'd go away and find out the information and then get it sorted so it just yeah it just seemed quite a cold
00:40:24 it just yeah it just seemed quite a cold approach
00:40:26 approach and obviously you know i appreciate that that wasn't the intent behind it but you've just begun to touch on it but what do you consider would have been a more effective process for providing information and
00:40:37 process for providing information and support
00:40:40 support well i guess what was put in place was key workers and that idea was the right one in the sense that you have one person that you have to explain your situation to and
00:40:51 have to explain your situation to and then hopefully they can lever in all the information and support you need you know the rest centers that popped up so ourselves rugby portobello there were others where
00:41:03 others where you know people were in an environment where they felt safe where they knew the staff
00:41:09 staff where they didn't need to keep repeating their situation but they could just say actually i could really do with this and then
00:41:16 then you know the member staff that heard that information might not be might not have the answers but they you know they'd go
00:41:22 they'd go away and find out who did have the answers so just yeah just not getting people to almost justify the need for the support
00:41:33 almost justify the need for the support the whole time turning now then please to some official meetings that you were involved with um is it correct that on the 16th of june the prime minister theresa may
00:41:45 june the prime minister theresa may attended the centre to have a private meeting with a group of residents volunteers staff and the bishop of kensington yes it is
00:41:54 yes it is do you know were you at that meeting i was
00:41:58 was how many residents were involved with the meeting well to give it some context we got about 15 minutes notice of the meeting so
00:42:08 so um
00:42:10 um we were told that she was on her well first of all yeah we were told she was coming
00:42:19 and that it was too late to say that she couldn't come
00:42:25 so it was then trying to think how to manage the situation so that we didn't you know for us the most important thing was to create a really safe space for the people
00:42:36 the people um
00:42:38 um for local people away from the press um
00:42:42 um away from lots of well-meaning volunteers which is why we'd split the site um
00:42:49 um so it was really important that that meeting didn't take place on the side of the site where there were lots of distressed relatives
00:42:58 relatives and that it was tucked away and
00:43:01 and not because we were trying to tuck theresa may away but just because
00:43:06 because you know
00:43:07 you know the focus of our attention was providing a safe space and not to have a sort of media circus so we only we only had a few minutes just to gather a few people that were around to
00:43:20 a few people that were around to meet with her and not we didn't have time to give great thought to who would be most appropriate to meet with her what did you understand the purpose of the meeting to be
00:43:32 the meeting to be well i didn't i didn't know in advance at the meeting what the purpose of the meeting was but i assumed it was for her to get a better understanding of what the issues were on the ground and was that the case once the meeting had
00:43:43 was that the case once the meeting had started yeah absolutely based on your experience did you consider that the meeting was helpful in trying to understand and offer tangible support to those affected
00:43:55 support to those affected she was certainly listening to what everyone had to say and gave everyone a chance to
00:44:00 chance to speak
00:44:01 speak the meeting was interrupted though so it was cut short because um everyone became aware locally that theresa may had
00:44:12 locally that theresa may had was there and so crowds started to build outside the church um
00:44:19 um and
00:44:20 and yeah it
00:44:22 yeah it it
00:44:23 it got very loud outside the church and then her security team said that actually she needed to end the meeting but but to be fair she then um ensured that another meeting was arranged so that the
00:44:35 another meeting was arranged so that the conversation could continue and turning to that then it was at the meeting that took place at number 10 downing street on the 17th of june yes um and were the same people involved at
00:44:46 um and were the same people involved at that meeting i think so yes and you mentioned in your statement that you kept some notes in relation to that meeting and if we could
00:44:57 and if we could turn to those please cfv zero zero zero zero zero zero four one are these are these those notes yes
00:45:08 are these are these those notes yes and is it right to say that these uh points just before i go through some of them reflected the key concerns at the meeting
00:45:16 meeting yes
00:45:17 yes so if i can turn please to the first uh heading under coordination your first two bullet points say highly visible hubs need to be in the local area now offering housing legal
00:45:30 local area now offering housing legal counselling financial support police family liaison officers etc and then number two electronic real-time information boards should be placed around the site so that
00:45:42 should be placed around the site so that residents can receive a stream of up-to-date information so is it right to say and you've touched on this already that one of the concerns really was visible accessible and up-to-date information about support yeah i mean
00:45:55 information about support yeah i mean there was a helpline established i can't remember exactly when that was established and later on there was a newsletter that came out each day that was that was quite helpful when that came out
00:46:06 out but a lot of the distress that was caused locally was down to the fact that there was no real-time information at all
00:46:12 all so for example there was an occasion when um the baseline studios were evacuated um
00:46:20 um and actually they were only evacuated because there was a problem with the fire door
00:46:24 fire door but quite understandably the residents of like the baseline studios are under lancaster west estate and quite understandably the residents of the lancaster west estate assumed that baseline studios were being evacuated
00:46:35 baseline studios were being evacuated because there was a risk the tower was about to collapse and there they are sitting in their accommodation thinking well you haven't evacuated us so there was you know it was understandable panic now had there been digital screens or
00:46:48 there been digital screens or you know a text service or a website that people could immediately have been notified don't worry we've evacuated um you know we've evacuated baseline studios just due to one
00:47:00 studios just due to one fire escape door that you know that would have calmed the situation down immediately yes
00:47:08 yes and turning to the third bullet point on your uh in your notes you say a representative group of residents should be consulted about what they need what they need now and in the coming days and weeks
00:47:19 weeks were there concerns about ensuring the voices of those directly impacted were being taken into account for the response
00:47:29 yes i mean i think there was real concern that the people who are making the decisions weren't actually speaking to those who were affected about what their experience was and what
00:47:40 about what their experience was and what the issues really were and it comes back to my point for example gold we were given gold details
00:47:51 gold details after this meeting but until that point golden never reached out to the rest centers as far as i'm aware suddenly hadn't reached out to us to communicate with us in any way
00:48:02 communicate with us in any way and
00:48:03 and you know
00:48:04 you know i mean obviously i appreciate they can't reach out to every single resident but it's how you know how were people's experiences actually being captured
00:48:14 captured and just touching on something that you said
00:48:17 said um those making the decisions weren't actually speaking to those who were affected about what their experience really was in your view is that something that is an issue in emergency
00:48:28 emergency response generally or perhaps more broadly interactions between those in decision making positions and those subject to those decision making
00:48:39 subject to those decision making um i know after this that a lot of thought has gone into actually who should be involved in responses and how do you
00:48:45 do you you know
00:48:47 you know whilst of course you need larger organizations that are experts to come into an area to respond and have official roles how do you get the you know
00:48:58 you know how do you ensure that the people actually that you're supporting are communicated with effectively how how do you involve trusted organizations on the ground so
00:49:08 ground so that certainly wasn't something that was felt
00:49:12 felt um
00:49:13 um you know in the aftermath of grenfell but
00:49:16 but i'm hopeful that that's something that's being been considered and planning going forward for other disasters should they happen thank you i'm just turning please to the next subheading support the second bullet
00:49:27 subheading support the second bullet point
00:49:28 point so sorry before we go to that can you just
00:49:31 just tell us the suggestions where where did the suggestions come from so i just took notes during the meeting so they were just the people who were attending that meeting
00:49:42 that meeting and i just made made sure that i noted down what people were suggesting so that it was captured i guess so we could you know check what actually was actioned that was suggested
00:49:54 actually was actioned that was suggested yes all right thank you so second bullet point please under the the support subheading uh it says immediate care package including communication easy access to cash oyster
00:50:05 communication easy access to cash oyster card topped at mobile phones store cards so again these were the types of concerns that people were reporting is that right yes fifth bullet point please uh you say immediate and ongoing counselling for
00:50:17 immediate and ongoing counselling for residents volunteers schools emergency staff
00:50:20 staff by the 17th of june as far as you are aware had there been any provision of psychological support services by rbkc or the london gold response team
00:50:32 or the london gold response team um there may well have been um i guess because they weren't on offer at our rest center we weren't aware of them and because we weren't being communicated with
00:50:43 we weren't being communicated with effectively we weren't aware of them but you know
00:50:49 and the sixth bullet point there it's the one that starts translators simply says translators available at the relevant centers so is it right to say that there are ongoing concerns about
00:51:00 that there are ongoing concerns about the accessibility of information for those that may not have spoken english as a first language yeah certainly early on i know that that got much better as time
00:51:09 time went on but at the beginning yeah making sure that actually things were translated and that there were translators and just turning please to the last sub-heading commitments and updates from
00:51:21 sub-heading commitments and updates from the pm it's on page two
00:51:27 and as an example just looking at bullets one and two the pm met with the mayor and the leader of the council on friday night bullet 2 john baradel
00:51:38 friday night bullet 2 john baradel barrow dale but barrydale has been appointed to coordinate the response and then bullet 7 which is the last one that residents will be re-housed within three weeks
00:51:50 will be re-housed within three weeks were you reassured that the concerns being raised by people would be addressed following this meeting the commitments that were made
00:52:01 yeah i mean we would we certainly felt like the points that were being raised were being heard and that that there were people in the room that would take them away and
00:52:13 would take them away and you know
00:52:15 you know we hoped would work with people who could action them and is it right then that on the 19th of june
00:52:22 june uh lorna gratton the private secretary to the prime minister provided contact details for sue redmond at gold command to you yes that's right because i'd requested them
00:52:34 requested them did having a direct line to gold command make a difference to you
00:52:39 to you or the response of the cjc um yeah i mean i didn't use the number too much but yes it was helpful i mean one of the situations when
00:52:52 i mean one of the situations when we did call her was that when the
00:52:56 when the when i said about the studios being evacuated and then we could say actually you know there's there's mass panic on the ground you know you need to get a message out somehow to everybody that actually the
00:53:09 somehow to everybody that actually the tower isn't about to collapse
00:53:13 and you also mention in your uh statement we don't need to go to it unless you want to you refer to further correspondence from lorna gratton who said that the new gold commander had all of our suggestions for how the response
00:53:25 of our suggestions for how the response must improve and was acting on them that's that paragraph uh 2059 of your statement
00:53:32 statement um
00:53:33 um in the days that followed this meeting were the issues that were raised acted upon as far as you could tell well we certainly saw some issues acted on um so
00:53:44 certainly saw some issues acted on um so there was a clearer presence of um for example i think it was the red cross in the area that were actively out on the streets in an identifiable um
00:53:57 an identifiable um tops to make it clear that you know for anyone walking around they could provide assistance um
00:54:04 um and there was a newsletter that came out every daily so some things were acted on i'm not well i mean obviously people weren't rehoused within three weeks
00:54:15 rehoused within three weeks uh the newsletter were you aware did that happen in the first seven days or did that come after i think it did happen towards the end of the first seven days turning now please then to a meeting um
00:54:27 turning now please then to a meeting um with hillary patel on the 20th of june that you mentioned in your statement
00:54:34 statement you say that this was the only time you saw the london gold response team is that right that's correct and if we could turn please to paragraph 153 of your statement page 23
00:54:52 you say there was a meeting led by hillary patel i believe this meeting took place on 20th of june this was a combination of voluntary sector and council officers and fortunately there was only time for us to introduce
00:55:04 was only time for us to introduce ourselves before the meeting was called to an end there was no information shared at this meeting beyond knowing who people were this was the first attempt in my experience of coordinated
00:55:15 attempt in my experience of coordinated community engagement by central or local government do you know why the meeting was called to an end without any discussion of substantive issues um
00:55:28 well it took so long there were so many people at the meeting it took so long for everyone to introduce it basically they went round the room and each person introduced themselves from where they were from
00:55:38 were from and by the time everyone had done that hillary said that the meeting it was time to end the meeting
00:55:45 were there was there any follow-up meeting arranged certainly not that i was invited to now were you aware of something called the hask the humanitarian assistant steering group
00:55:56 group are you familiar with the term i am now but i wasn't aware of it at the time no so it'd be right to say you weren't invited to any hask meetings at the time in that first week what difference do you think it might
00:56:07 what difference do you think it might have made if rest center leaders such as yourself were involved with meetings at this strategic level i just think
00:56:19 i i appreciate it was a difficult situation where you didn't necessarily have definitive answers for people but just being able to go back and let people know what was being done behind the scenes what you know actually
00:56:33 behind the scenes what you know actually accommodations being considered there's a problem with the boiler you know it's it's likely to take this amount of time having a vacuum of information is just causes so much distress for people
00:56:44 causes so much distress for people because they they assume that actually no one cares and no one wants to communicate with them so had the rest centers been looped in then at least we could have shared what information there
00:56:55 could have shared what information there was and i i just think that you know it's really reassuring for people if even if even if they're not going to get the answers they want just to have a constant stream of
00:57:06 just to have a constant stream of information and to be kept informed is really reassuring for people they're already facing so much kind of unimaginable stress you know not being communicated with is
00:57:17 you know not being communicated with is just
00:57:18 just adds to that turning now then please to the the last portion of the questions i have for you i'm going to ask you about the adequacy of the response and some of the lessons
00:57:29 of the response and some of the lessons that can be learned if i can take you please firstly to paragraph 103 of your statement
00:57:46 oh sorry it should be 104. um have you got that there yes cjc were not made aware of a coordinated response by local government uh various council officers and councillors checked in with us but a
00:57:58 councillors checked in with us but a cohesive plan was not evidence to us within the first few
00:58:03 few days is that right that's right and just looking again from paragraph 103 it's from the middle there it says the cjc were not asked to be a part of any coordinated response by
00:58:16 be a part of any coordinated response by central government the cjc were not asked to do anything we were getting on with the job there was no government coordination connecting cjc with other community organizations such as the rugby portobello trust is that right
00:58:28 rugby portobello trust is that right that's right and i just against that background want to turn please to paragraph 155 of your statement where you outline a number of uh reflections and lessons
00:58:40 a number of uh reflections and lessons that could be learned so we could go to uh paragraph 155 on page 24 please
00:58:52 i'm going to deal with it in a bit of a an odd order i hope that's okay returning to the um penultimate bullet point please you say that there the need for a vcs
00:59:03 you say that there the need for a vcs lead with authority and gold command who has the ability to mobilize resources many voluntary organizations were frustrated with the lack of information passing from gold command to those
00:59:14 passing from gold command to those organizations responding on the ground and there was little or no attempt by gold to gather information and understanding from the organizations on the ground just so we're clear can you
00:59:25 the ground just so we're clear can you confirm that vcs refers to the voluntary community sector that's correct yes what specific role do you think a vcs lead ought to have in this type of situation
00:59:38 ought to have in this type of situation i think they ought to be communicating with
00:59:41 with all voluntary sector organizations that are responding on the ground and making sure that there is a flow of information gathering information about the issues that people were facing um and being a voice in those meetings
00:59:54 um and being a voice in those meetings to make sure that
00:59:56 that actually the you know the issues that the residents were facing were were actually represented in those meetings
01:00:04 meetings and what systems do you think could be introduced to ensure that information and understanding from organizations on the ground is incorporated you've touched on that but why do you think it's important for that
01:00:15 why do you think it's important for that to be done
01:00:18 why which it i just find it extraordinary that you wouldn't do it i mean if if you want to respond effectively to a situation how can you possibly respond effectively if
01:00:29 can you possibly respond effectively if you don't actually understand the issues that people are facing um it
01:00:35 um it i mean i appreciate that you have protocols and that there are certain things that automatically fall into place and they don't necessarily require any consultation but beyond that there are a whole world of unknowns that
01:00:46 are a whole world of unknowns that happen
01:00:47 happen that you need to you know you need to be communicating with people to actually understand what you know what it is that they're facing and actually surely you're wanting to limit the
01:00:59 surely you're wanting to limit the distress that people are experiencing and the only way you can do that effectively is if you're communicating with them thank you can i take you to another document please it's at lfb00119228
01:01:19 this is the mind the gap a review of the voluntary sector response to the grenfell tragedy report and it was commissioned by a charity called muslim aid in affiliation with a number of other organizations just before the
01:01:31 other organizations just before the first anniversary of the fire is it are you aware of this report and we can see from page two if we can go to that please on the acknowledgements page
01:01:41 page um that your names mentioned there are somebody that contributed towards the report by way of providing insights and other information is that right that's correct
01:01:50 correct and if we could go to page 37 please
01:01:58 looking at the last subheading shaping coordination to optimize capability i'm just skipping ahead a little bit to the second sentence and it
01:02:09 little bit to the second sentence and it says while gold command needs to maintain coordination across all aspects of an emergency response there may be value as in the case of the grandfather response in providing the sector with
01:02:20 response in providing the sector with autonomous spaces to coordinate which then link into formal multi-sector forum the choice of leadership of voluntary sector coordination is critical
01:02:31 sector coordination is critical logically it should come from a voluntary sector agency with standing capacity for emergency response however there are limitations to what an outside agency can offer particularly in terms
01:02:44 agency can offer particularly in terms of understanding the capacities and needs of local actors in your view how can the bigger or bigger voluntary organizations such as for example the british red cross
01:02:56 for example the british red cross better utilize the experiences of local organizations like the clement james center as an example to better understand the capabilities of smaller organizations
01:03:07 organizations i think just working in partnership i mean obviously the british red cross come with an absolute wealth of experience of you know crises but
01:03:18 you know crises but i would imagine it would be really valuable to them to be in touch with local organizations who understand you know the infrastructure that's already in place so that the red cross can tap into both that intelligence and
01:03:31 can tap into both that intelligence and the resources and and
01:03:33 and you know it's probably more reassuring for people to be supported by people they know and trust already alongside people who bring outside expertise
01:03:44 people who bring outside expertise thank you i'm going to take you back briefly to your statement please page 25
01:03:50 page 25 which we were just looking at it's the first bullet point there where you say
01:03:56 you say most of the official coordination and support seemed to be focused at westway's sports center whilst this made sense in many respects it didn't fully take into account the emotional and
01:04:07 take into account the emotional and religious needs of traumatized and grieving residents and existing relations that they had with organizations in the area what do you mean by emotional and religious needs
01:04:23 well the sports centre was helpful from a practical point of view as in you had a range of experts there who could address you know a number of questions
01:04:35 but i'd question whether it was really effective on a sort of compassionate level and when you've got people who are grieving is that is that really the environment
01:04:46 really the environment that you expect them and do they have to keep going up to the you know the sports center every time they need something every time they want a question answered
01:05:01 you know and it yeah
01:05:04 yeah and was there anything in particular about religious needs that you you might have
01:05:08 have meant at this point well it was during ramadan so there were there were all sorts of um needs in respect to that but also religious needs as far as
01:05:22 people's customs were and and whatever was going to give them reassurance in a situation where they were grieving um
01:05:29 um you know whether that be having a space where members of the community could come to visit them and pay their respects or you know
01:05:39 because whatever their customs are are likely to you know give them reassurance at a time when there's you know very little reassurance to be had
01:05:49 had yes and if i can take you back please to the mind the gap report at page 36
01:05:59 and looking at the second section titled embracing diversity in the voluntary sector
01:06:07 sector it says the community affected by the fire was highly heterogeneous and this was reflected in people's different linguistic religious cultural physical and psychological needs catering to this diversity requires
01:06:19 catering to this diversity requires organizational identities and cultures that are attuned with it highlighting the critical importance both of enhancing the diversity of volunteers staff and leadership in mainstream
01:06:32 staff and leadership in mainstream emergency response response actors and embracing the contributions of others in your view how might this type of work be achieved on a practical
01:06:44 be achieved on a practical level i guess you know ensuring that you have
01:06:48 have organizations like muslim aid involved in
01:06:52 in in a response so that you're you know that you're fully informed of of people's needs and you're not just assuming but
01:07:02 everyone's needs would be similar to yours in that situation but you're taking into consideration there
01:07:09 there [Music]
01:07:13 and are you aware of any specific efforts
01:07:16 efforts having been made by rbkc or any other official responders following the grenfell fire to better understand and improve the diversity in in emergency
01:07:27 improve the diversity in in emergency response
01:07:28 response and and or improving diversity in the people involved with the response
01:07:35 i don't know specifically in rbkc i know there's been a lot of thinking around that nationally thank you and if we could go back please to paragraph 155 of your statement on
01:07:47 to paragraph 155 of your statement on page
01:07:48 page 24.
01:07:52 uh the third bullet point please
01:07:57 and again this links to what you've been telling us about information you say there was a need for central reliable source of accurate information about financial assistance for families
01:08:08 about financial assistance for families affected by the fire information circulated by the fire response team was often inaccurate and on visits to the westway center it was clear that staff at the financial assistance desk and the
01:08:19 at the financial assistance desk and the key workers desk were unclear about funding available is that right at times yes that's right and if we could look please at the fourth bullet point
01:08:30 the one that says there is a need for swift
01:08:33 swift and effective communication have you got that one yes you say there was a need for swift and effective communication with the wider public
01:08:41 public the public were quick to respond generously flooding the area with physical donations and offers of support but this generosity placed a burden on the organizations responding on the ground and was in danger of distracting
01:08:54 ground and was in danger of distracting us from the most effect from the most effectively supporting the community what kind of system do you think needs to be in place to manage the spontaneous public response to prevent the burden
01:09:05 public response to prevent the burden falling on frontline organizations like the cjc
01:09:09 the cjc i think there needed to be communication on the news publicly nationally immediately to thank the public for their generosity but to say actually
01:09:20 say actually physical donations were just not needed to stop them yes
01:09:27 yes and if we could look at the second bullet point on page 25 please
01:09:36 you say the need for consistent staff teams where possible the rotation of key workers led to variable support with many families reporting that they struggle to contact their key worker
01:09:47 struggle to contact their key worker similarly the rotation of staff that worked at the various help desks at the westway sports centre meant that at any given moment the knowledge they were able to impart seemed to depend on how long they had been there
01:10:00 long they had been there is that right yeah i mean we were certainly hearing um at the clement james center from people that you know frustrated that they couldn't get hold of their key workers that
01:10:11 get hold of their key workers that they'd been provided with inaccurate information i'm sure that wasn't all the time but there were certainly yeah many occasions that that was happening do you have any views on what could be done to improve the key worker system in scenarios like
01:10:23 the key worker system in scenarios like this
01:10:25 this well i realized that you know the scale was huge so there were a lot of key workers needed um
01:10:34 but you know
01:10:39 allowing for the fact that people go on leave and might not be contactable should you know perhaps having the numbers of two key workers at any one time would be helpful thank you
01:10:49 thank you can i please take you to another document this is a statement of adrian clee who provided a statement to the inquiry and he's from the salvation army the document is cfv-00059
01:11:09 and if we could turn to page 13 please
01:11:14 and just looking at paragraph um well you can't see it there but it's the the roman numerals too can you see that towards the bottom of the page and he says personally i believe that
01:11:27 and he says personally i believe that the civil contingencies act needs to be strengthened to make it a requirement for category one responders and local resilience forums to involve the vcs in their emergency planning and exercising
01:11:39 their emergency planning and exercising the act currently just says they must pay due regard to the voluntary sector and the role that it can play in responding to emergencies as a result there is not a constant
01:11:51 as a result there is not a constant consistent approach across the country within lrfs or local authorities some are examples of best practice in terms of lrf la vcs engagement some are
01:12:02 terms of lrf la vcs engagement some are very poor the vcf itself can continue to advocate for more engagement but unless involvement in the lrf la emergency planning process is mandated there will
01:12:13 planning process is mandated there will continue to be an inconsistent picture across the country do you agree with this assessment that seems to make sense here do you have anything further to add in
01:12:24 do you have anything further to add in relation to those observations no but i would hope that there's been a lot of learning from this incident and that actually people are more willing to
01:12:35 that actually people are more willing to involve local vcs and any future emergency response and just turning to my last few questions for you since the grenfell tower fire and whilst you were still at the cjc
01:12:48 you were still at the cjc were there any efforts from rbkc to meaningfully involve the center in their emergency planning arrangements moving forward
01:12:57 i'm not aware of any conversations about future emergency planning no was there any involvement with the cjc at the borough resilience forum level
01:13:09 at the borough resilience forum level that you were aware of no i don't think so and are you aware of any broader efforts being made by rbkc since the fire to engage community and faith organizations in north kensington
01:13:22 faith organizations in north kensington in emergency planning and response moving forward not that i'm aware of is there anything else you would like to add to your evidence today miss richards
01:13:33 add to your evidence today miss richards um
01:13:35 um i think i just want to say that you know i appreciate that this this was of a scale that hadn't been seen but
01:13:43 seen but it did happen in central london and we were a city on high alert as a result of a number of terrorist incidents and therefore i feel that it would have been reasonable to expect a level of coordination and
01:13:56 expect a level of coordination and communication with the people who are responding on the ground that we just didn't see and i have read several statements that made it clear that actually elements of the response were well coordinated
01:14:08 the response were well coordinated but whatever was happening behind the scenes actually the experience of those of us on the ground was that we were in a complete vacuum of information particularly for those first 18 hours
01:14:19 18 hours and then even after 18 hours all we were told was that the westway centre was becoming the designated center and as i've said you know whilst that seemed like a really good idea actually
01:14:31 seemed like a really good idea actually it was quite an intimidating space um and people didn't always get accurate information there and were asked to repeat the information i mean why why did gold not you know
01:14:43 i mean why why did gold not you know communicate with the organizations that they knew were supporting hundreds of residents on the ground um why
01:14:50 um why many of us were many of the charities were tasked with distributing funds that the public had generously raised and yet we weren't provided with a list of
01:15:01 of those affected for at least six weeks why was that information not made available to us why you know why did a message not go out to say thank you very much public
01:15:13 out to say thank you very much public you've been extraordinarily generous but actually please stop with the physical donations
01:15:19 donations but i guess worst of all how do you have a situation
01:15:27 where families have lost their children
01:15:35 and they left for days without anybody official having a conversation with them about this whether there was any chance that those children were alive and i find that mind-blowing
01:15:51 thank you very much mr richards those are the those are the questions i've got prepared for you but we're going to take a break now to see if there are any other questions for you yes well we have a break no no no don't
01:16:02 yes well we have a break no no no don't go for a moment we have to have a break at this point because there may be other questions that um
01:16:07 that um we should put to you thank you so we'll we'll stop there we'll go we'll come back at half past three please and we'll combine this with the afternoon
01:16:16 afternoon break
01:16:17 break and uh while you're out of the room have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything related to it all right thank you very much thank you very much
01:16:33 right how far sweden please thank you
01:31:03 and would you ask richard to come back in please
01:31:16 all right well we'll see if there's any more questions for you thank you yes excuse me just one please um you mentioned that the rbkc social care team was quite active at the cjc were you
01:31:27 was quite active at the cjc were you aware of any specific system being used by them to record the needs of those they were speaking to no i just meant quite active as in they appeared to be proactively
01:31:40 they appeared to be proactively circulating and taking information so you know rather than sort of huddled in a group they were actually you know taking the initiative to go and make sure that they went up to everybody
01:31:53 make sure that they went up to everybody thank you
01:31:54 thank you thank you very much for coming today to assist the inquiry with our investigations we're very grateful thank you and let me add my thanks on behalf of the panel it's been very useful and very interesting to hear from someone who was actually there on the
01:32:06 someone who was actually there on the night in the voluntary sector so we are very grateful to you for coming to talk to us thank you very much indeed and now you're free to go thank you very much
01:32:18 now mrs van we have another witness but before we
01:32:22 before we uh take the next witness we have to pause while a little bit of housekeeping is done we'll sit here while that goes on there's no point
01:32:38 thank you very much yes can i call mr mark sims please [Applause]
01:33:24 good afternoon mr sims afternoon i gather you're going to a firm i am the words are on the screen would you care to read them out please i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and i affirm that the evidence i shall give be the
01:33:37 that the evidence i shall give be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please sit down make yourself comfortable
01:33:45 right yes mr sizzler thank you very much for attending today to give evidence and assist the inquiry with our investigations by way of introduction please try to keep your voice up so that the
01:33:56 keep your voice up so that the transcriber can hear you it helps not to nod or shake so please say yes or no if any of my questions are unclear let me know i'll ask them in a different way and if you need any additional breaks
01:34:08 and if you need any additional breaks again let me know and we can arrange that is that okay that's great you've made one statement to the inquiry dated the 19th of november 2019 and if we could go to that please
01:34:22 uh is that your statement it is and can we go to page 23 please is that your signature it is have you had the opportunity to read your statement recently i have and can you confirm that the contents are true to
01:34:34 confirm that the contents are true to the best of your knowledge they are thank you just dealing with some background matters first please is it right that since 2014 you've been the chief executive of the p3 charity group
01:34:46 p3 charity group that's right and is it right that the rugby portobello trust sometimes known as the rugby club or the rpt is a part of the p3 charity group it is and in terms of your career history is
01:34:57 and in terms of your career history is it right that you qualified as a registered mental health nurse in 1990 and you've had a number of senior management roles in the nhs and the private sector that's right turning pleased to ask you about
01:35:09 turning pleased to ask you about the rpt and emergency planning prior to the grenfell tower fire had the rpt been involved with any emergency planning or training with rbkc
01:35:21 emergency planning or training with rbkc not to my knowledge had you ever been contacted by a keith robbins or anyone else from rbkc about being a part of any community resilience strategy or being involved in
01:35:33 resilience strategy or being involved in any kind of cont contingency arrangements not to my knowledge had you have been contacted by somebody from our bkc making those requests would you have offered your assistance and the assistance of the club absolutely
01:35:46 assistance of the club absolutely thank you
01:35:47 thank you and is it correct that at the time of the grenfell tower fire nobody from rbkc contacted you about the rpt being a part of the official response that's right
01:35:58 response that's right is it correct then that your response and that of the the club in the immediate aftermath was entirely voluntary and self-organized that's right
01:36:07 right does the rpt have its own emergency plan or relevant training for its staff and volunteers as part of the national charity we have a plan around major incidents so yes
01:36:20 a plan around major incidents so yes thank you i now want to ask you please about your involvement on the 14th of june and the activities of the the rugby club is it right that the club opened in the early hours of the morning on the
01:36:32 the early hours of the morning on the 14th of june to offer support to those that needed it that's right yes uh and is it right that it was actually not yourself but the club's caretaker and his partner that opened the club that's right they lived more or less
01:36:43 that's right they lived more or less directly opposite and is it correct that you arrived at about 7 30 8 o'clock in the morning having travelled from your home in nottinghamshire that's right
01:36:54 nottinghamshire that's right and in your statement and we don't need to go to it unless you want me to you say that upon your arrival people were sitting in the sports hall and all along the stairs with blankets wrapped around them i would say that we
01:37:06 wrapped around them i would say that we had over 100 people in the building of all ages in various states of confusion and distress at the time is that right that's right yes so once you arrived at the the rugby club what
01:37:18 you arrived at the the rugby club what was your plan well what i did was i spoke to
01:37:23 spoke to the staff who were on site we went into a back room and had a meeting so i could find out what what happened so far what was going on and then start to draw up a plan of what we needed to immediately do
01:37:35 plan of what we needed to immediately do just
01:37:36 just you know just the basic things like making sure people have got stuff to eat making sure that people have got access to toilets really simple things like making sure that the toilets were constantly cleaned and things like that so just
01:37:49 and things like that so just kind of moving into a holding pattern to help arrive because i was confident that that's what would happen and in your statement you describe at some point trying to make contact with
01:38:00 some point trying to make contact with the rbkc borough emergency command center the what you call the beck is that right that's right yes do you recall roughly what sort of time that was i don't it was shortly after that meeting that i'd had with staff i was
01:38:11 meeting that i'd had with staff i was talking
01:38:13 talking to people about what we should do and that kind of stuff so shortly after that he was on my list of things to do after that meeting and how did you know to try and make contact with the beck because someone had told me in the
01:38:25 someone had told me in the someone had told me that the borrower emergency command the beck and i didn't know that's what it stood for but they said you need to contact the back sorry and i think that came from some people who were outside outside the
01:38:37 people who were outside outside the rugby club was that anybody official or no
01:38:41 no all right
01:38:42 all right and is it right that you'd try to contact the bec but couldn't get hold of anybody by a call or email that's right turning now then please to the response that you organized as part of
01:38:54 that you organized as part of the rugby portobello trust you say in your pa statement at paragraph 84 and again we don't need to go to it unless you need me to
01:39:05 go to it unless you need me to that there were various types of support that were arranged including the provision of clothing food money accommodation medical assistance and later on things like id
01:39:16 assistance and later on things like id access to bank accounts and access to technology is that correct that's right yeah
01:39:21 yeah and in terms of financial assistance is it correct that on the 14th of june you put an email out to rpt supporters asking for physical cash to be distributed to people that's right
01:39:33 distributed to people that's right and i think you say in your statement and it's at paragraph 100 that around 80 000 pounds physical cash was secured from supporters and that was distributed was that within the first week following
01:39:44 was that within the first week following the fire yes over that first week all right and and again in your statement you describe the system for the distribution of cash and is it right that it was very much a giving people
01:39:57 that it was very much a giving people what they needed not asking too many questions or asking too much information from them there was a lot of discussion about what we do about cash and i just took the approach that if people wanted to defraud us or
01:40:10 if people wanted to defraud us or donors that was on their conscience not ours so we knew a lot of these people they're people from the local community and so we took it on face value and trust so we'd ask people what they
01:40:21 trust so we'd ask people what they needed and we provide that but some people
01:40:24 people were really reluctant to take cash and you know there's a lot of paranoia there's a lot of pride at stake so we really have to build up those relationships to say actually we want you to have this don't don't struggle
01:40:36 you to have this don't don't struggle through the day with no shoes if you need shoes go and get some shoes thank you and can i take you please to paragraph 36 of your uh statement it will appear in your on your screen in
01:40:47 it will appear in your on your screen in just a second
01:40:51 yeah and i'm looking at it from the the middle where you're talking about the process for giving people money and you say the hope was this small gesture would
01:41:02 the hope was this small gesture would help empower survivors to take back a small element of control over their lives they were encouraged to buy their own shoes and personal items to try and help restore an element of dignity the
01:41:14 help restore an element of dignity the money could be used for whatever survivors wanted and no receipts were required
01:41:18 required to be submitted to the rpt can you tell us a bit more about why you thought that what you meant by this element of dignity yeah although we had a lot of donations and stuff that came
01:41:29 a lot of donations and stuff that came in
01:41:30 in if you're a size nine and a half shoe and we've only got eights and tens you've got no shoes it's really simple stuff about if you look at muslow's hierarchy we were focusing on really basic needs so
01:41:41 were focusing on really basic needs so we were making sure that people had food and that they were clothed and that you know there was an element of dignity if somebody um you know was a vegetarian or a vegan and we
01:41:53 was a vegetarian or a vegan and we didn't have a sandwich then they could go and get one it was absolutely that stuff about the stuff that we all take for granted that if you want to you know if you smoke and you might got 20
01:42:04 smoke and you might got 20 you know you ain't got a to light up that you need a you don't want to be bumming that off someone else so go and get yourself some cigarettes it was just that simple thing thank you
01:42:13 thank you um and turn into a slightly different topic is it right that there came a time in the morning of the 14th of june that a decision was made that the club would only be a space for survivors that's right yeah was that your decision it was
01:42:26 right yeah was that your decision it was and can you tell us how that came about we were
01:42:29 we were in danger of being overrun we were got a lot of well-meaning volunteers who were coming from all over london volunteering and our own volunteers are turned up in numbers and we're picking
01:42:40 turned up in numbers and we're picking up most of the work but also what i was very well aware of we were getting press in there we were getting politicians you know we were getting pop stars turn up and all that kind of stuff and now what i was seeing with people who were
01:42:51 i was seeing with people who were bereaved and bereft and in a state of undress and had little dignity and we promised the survivors that we would make that space exclusively for them and so at that time we closed the center to
01:43:03 so at that time we closed the center to everyone who wasn't a volunteer a member of staff or someone from the tower was that a decision that you made because the club didn't have the capacity to support everyone affected that's that's right we were we were
01:43:15 that's that's right we were we were focused purely on the people who would run for their lives earlier that day had you have received some help from rbkc to coordinate the the relief effort
01:43:26 rbkc to coordinate the the relief effort at the club do you think you might have been able to support other people in addition to survivors i don't know we were full the space was physically full so we would have needed to be part of a network
01:43:38 to be part of a network thank you i'm going to turn now to ask you about the rbkc housing team please you say in your statement that the housing team arrived at about 11 a.m on
01:43:49 housing team arrived at about 11 a.m on the morning is that right that's right yeah and you later on say in your statement that it was councillor fawkes who made sure the housing team um came how did that come about please
01:44:01 how did that come about please we were as we were we've got people on the door to stop people coming in and there was a huge crowd outside there was loads of cameras and in the crowd i saw catherine fox who i know so i went over to her and said look we
01:44:13 so i went over to her and said look we need help we need someone from because i knew that no one was going back to the tower that night so they need somewhere to stay and i said we need help particularly with housing where's everybody gonna go tonight and she said that she would um
01:44:26 tonight and she said that she would um try and get hold of someone and get some help down to us and shortly after they came i've subsequently understand that they might have been coming anyway but i assumed it was from that conversation i had with councillor folks do you
01:44:37 had with councillor folks do you remember roughly how many people came from the housing team yeah and maybe about 10. and were they identifiable as people from rbkc for example by way of badges
01:44:49 from rbkc for example by way of badges or lanyards anything like that they came to me the manager came to me and said you know we're from the borough uh housing team i was a bit they also came in someone i think who was from westminster who introduced
01:45:00 was from westminster who introduced herself as someone who might be in charge and and i was rather short with her because it was a bit too little too late really for that but the housing team we set them up in an office
01:45:11 team we set them up in an office upstairs and gave them laptops and wi-fi and and what i did throughout the day was i stood up occasionally just on a chair in the hall and made announcements as we knew stuff and one of the announcements i made was that the
01:45:23 announcements i made was that the borough housing people are here and they're going to speak to everyone today about what we can do about getting you somewhere to stay tonight and so we set them up upstairs and then later
01:45:34 we set them up upstairs and then later on they moved two desks into the hall so they started working
01:45:38 working with as many people as they could were you aware that some survivors reported not being aware that rbkc housing was at the the rugby club no i wasn't aware of that
01:45:50 no i wasn't aware of that it's entirely possible it was chaotic was there a particular system put in place
01:45:56 place for survivors to meet um rbk casey housing no we kind of agreed between us and the housing team that they would introduce themselves to everybody and offer
01:46:07 themselves to everybody and offer everybody assistance are you aware of whether they did in fact do that what i can tell you is that night nobody slept to rpt because everybody who was in rpg was offered something by the
01:46:18 in rpg was offered something by the housing team i understood because that's where they went a part of our role in that was you couldn't move in kensington in north kent internet that time you couldn't get cars in and out so we had a
01:46:30 couldn't get cars in and out so we had a local taxi firm who gave us um cars to get people to hotels so we were booking rides for people and also a lot of our volunteers who lived very locally got their own cars so taking people to
01:46:42 their own cars so taking people to hotels just to be clear was that something you the rpt arranged robbie casey yeah we organized that thank you and just going back to rbkc housing team were you aware of them doing any
01:46:53 were you aware of them doing any vulnerability assessments or assessment of specific needs to assist with accommodation no i didn't know what they were doing i assumed uh you know i worked for a national homelessness charity i was assuming they were doing stuff around
01:47:05 assuming they were doing stuff around duty and assessing people's needs did you observe any of the actual interviews that were taking place survivors and rbkc
01:47:16 we've heard evidence from um one survivor hanan wahabi who described her experience of the interview with rbkc she described it as a tick box interview
01:47:27 she described it as a tick box interview with people being robotic and not having any empathy although you weren't aware you weren't observing these did you later become aware of survivors having concerns with the way that rbkc were doing these interviews
01:47:39 doing these interviews absolutely because the stuff i was aware of was one that there was such a large volume that it did appear to be a tick box exercise and also that they were short on solutions so although they were gathering
01:47:50 so although they were gathering information there wasn't much giving of information thank you and are you aware of whether rbkc organized any interpreters to assist people that might not speak english as a
01:48:01 people that might not speak english as a first language i'm not aware of that and again
01:48:06 and again in your statement and we don't need to go to it unless you want me to you say that we worked with survivors and the council to ensure that everyone who needed a bed for the night was able to get one at a hotel or with family or
01:48:19 get one at a hotel or with family or friends i instructed staff to block book as many hotel rooms as they could that's right so from about nine o'clock in the morning i just one of our volunteers i gave her my own credit card and said
01:48:31 gave her my own credit card and said start booking hotel rooms and when the council turned back up we can't we we were told that as soon as we were told that's what the council were doing that they were going to start booking hotel rooms and that they couldn't use the ones that we'd
01:48:43 they couldn't use the ones that we'd booked we released those hotel rooms and cancelled that booking did they take did they say why the ones that you had booked couldn't be used because they were doing it
01:48:56 uh in your statement you also say that later on in the evening at around 9 00 p.m
01:49:00 p.m more survivors arrive from the harrow club to the rpt is that right that's right we were told the harrow club was closing for the night and that we were going to be a rest center i'd heard that
01:49:11 going to be a rest center i'd heard that a couple of times during the day that we were going to be a rest center overnight so they just
01:49:17 they just we were told our own club had closed and and they were on their way do you recall how many people from the harrow club came to rpt it was in a minibus so it's probably no more than 10 or 12.
01:49:29 and was accommodation also arranged for those people yeah the the council housing team didn't leave the uh the building until around midnight not all of them some were still around until
01:49:40 all of them some were still around until around midnight and we're still getting people to hotels the team manager specifically stayed until the end turning now please and to ask you about your interaction with rbkc councillors
01:49:52 your interaction with rbkc councillors yeah uh if i can take you please to paragraph 42 page 10 of your statement
01:50:05 it says several local councillors offered help but there was an absolute sense that everyone was overwhelmed and by now the hostility towards the local council was rising people were very angry that the fire in the tower had
01:50:17 angry that the fire in the tower had been predicted and that also there was an absence of a coordinated visible response from the council we thought it best to remain separate to the authority although i did keep in frequent contact with councillor catherine fawkes who
01:50:28 with councillor catherine fawkes who made sure that we were able to communicate directly with the leadership of the council to make them aware of the issues that we were facing for example i asked for her to make contact with the beck and make sure that they knew that
01:50:39 beck and make sure that they knew that survivors were at our building and any help was directed to us she did this but by then the beck was no longer in use and she herself was struggling to get us any answers as
01:50:50 struggling to get us any answers as there was so much going on and you've told us already it was catherine who made sure that the housing team came to rpt
01:50:56 rpt yeah
01:50:57 yeah other than uh what you've said about catherine fawkes what type of help did other councillors offer um we just had people coming to the center saying can we help and by then we'd make that decision that we
01:51:09 by then we'd make that decision that we weren't allowing anyone in other than survivors and so we said no other than we need to know what's happening we need someone to come down and tell us what's going on someone in a coordinating role
01:51:22 going on someone in a coordinating role and you mentioned um that councillor fawkes facilitated communication with the council in what way did she do that she would just pass those messages on call people
01:51:34 call people turning now please then to ask you about the british red cross uh again we don't need to go to it but in your statement you say that someone called nile from the british red cross arrived at around 11 o'clock on the 14th
01:51:47 arrived at around 11 o'clock on the 14th yeah is that right that's right uh and in the same paragraph 33 you say that you allocated and wrote him a room at the club is that that's right what was his role at the club was he
01:51:59 what was his role at the club was he what was he doing well he when he came in he was saying something like i'm the bronze i mean that was a term unfamiliar to me on the broad because i i know there's a an emergency response kind of
01:52:11 there's a an emergency response kind of language but i wasn't really sure what our bronze did uh it's two down from gold well enough he doesn't take much work in now um and he was supposed to be doing coordination for us and tell us
01:52:22 doing coordination for us and tell us what was going on um and he'd organized for red cross volunteers to come to rpt from you know some of as far away as kent and stuff and um
01:52:33 and um we were we were assuming he was part of the response that we was going to help the people who'd fled the tower but in actual fact he was just asking us questions and then getting on the phone
01:52:44 questions and then getting on the phone and telling that to someone else
01:52:49 is it right then that you didn't receive any substantive support from this not no british red cross
01:52:56 by the end of the 14th of june had you received any information from the council about the official response in terms of the overarching coordination of that response nothing at all
01:53:08 of that response nothing at all and if we could please go to paragraph 48 of your statement
01:53:17 and i'm looking at it from the middle there where you say we had no idea what the next day would hold there was still no plan there was still no communication from any statutory body on what to do
01:53:28 from any statutory body on what to do therefore we told everybody who came to the rpt on the first day that we would be there for them on the second day and we would try and find out what the longer term plan was and help them with whatever they needed is that right
01:53:39 whatever they needed is that right that's absolutely right did you ever find out what that longer term plan was i'm still waiting to find out now turning them please to the 15th of june um is it correct to say that the club
01:53:52 um is it correct to say that the club continues to offer various support and assistance in the ways you've already told us about to people that needed it that's right yeah and just dealing with it very briefly if
01:54:03 and just dealing with it very briefly if i can
01:54:04 i can is it right that the continued support included uh the team organizing transport to people to and from hotels and hospitals that's right uh structured
01:54:15 and hospitals that's right uh structured clothing provision i think you say that you had selfridge's assist with sorting out the clothing donations is that right that's right
01:54:35 tech shop drop-in room uh and you also were able to establish a scheme providing survivors with a smartphone and laptop is that right that's right yeah
01:54:47 that's right yeah and later on although this was the 26th of june is it correct that you secured a package of support for survivors which included help with things like tvs kettles microwaves and things like that
01:54:59 kettles microwaves and things like that yeah we negotiated a setting up home pack from dixon stores group which they donated to every survivor thank you and is it right that the rpt suspended your normal services
01:55:12 the rpt suspended your normal services so you could assist survivors in this way yeah in the aftermath that's right we didn't start normal services again until october 2017. and in all of the support that you've described did you receive any support
01:55:24 described did you receive any support from rbkc or later the london gold response team to assist you with providing that support no touching very briefly please on the
01:55:35 touching very briefly please on the distribution of grants is it correct that the rpt was involved with the distribution of funds and you were asked to assist with this on the 16th of june
01:55:46 to assist with this on the 16th of june is that correct that's right and is it correct that the rpt distributed payments in partnership with the national zakat foundation that's right in the early days we did
01:55:57 right in the early days we did and at paragraph 74 of your statement you say
01:56:01 you say the rpt issued over 3 200 individual grants totaling more than 16.8 million pounds are you able to assist with how many grants were distributed in the
01:56:13 many grants were distributed in the first week following the fire no
01:56:17 and did you receive any support from rbkc or later the london gold response team in administering in administering those grants given that you weren't a grant-making organization no we
01:56:28 grant-making organization no we administered grants on behalf of rbkc to residents of the walkway um
01:56:34 um and so they asked us to give every family on the walkway um a grant of five thousand pounds so we did that on behalf of the borough do you remember when that uh scheme came into
01:56:45 uh scheme came into maybe a week or so after the fire a couple maybe a couple of weeks after the fire thank you and in the first week following the fire were you aware of rbkc making emergency payments
01:56:56 rbkc making emergency payments to survivors no i wasn't i want to turn now please to a meeting with hillary patel that you mentioned in your
01:57:04 your statement
01:57:07 if i can take you please it might make it easier to paragraph 59
01:57:21 here you say the rpt was invited to a meeting at westway trust on monday the 19th of july hosted by hillary patel we've got evidence from other people
01:57:32 we've got evidence from other people that were
01:57:33 that were in attendance at this meeting suggesting it was a 20th of june does that assist with your recollection yeah it was the 20th june that's the wrong day so i do apologize for that thank you were you aware at the time that hillary
01:57:44 were you aware at the time that hillary patel was a part of the london gold response team no
01:57:49 no and just sticking with paragraph 59 please and you've got it there on your screen
01:57:55 screen from the third line you say we expected at this meeting miss patel was going to provide us with information and share the medium and longer term plan with us we told survivors that this meeting was
01:58:06 we told survivors that this meeting was taking place and we would have more information for them after the meeting continuing at paragraph 60 you say on arrival at the meeting we all went round the room and introduced ourselves and
01:58:17 the room and introduced ourselves and the organizations we were from at the end of this the meeting was closed nothing useful or productive in terms of information was shared at the meeting and people were very angry that there
01:58:28 and people were very angry that there was no further information or commitment to resolve any of the issues that we were facing there was a commitment to a further meeting which never happened is that correct yes it was like
01:58:40 happened is that correct yes it was like a scene from yes minister we just all gave our names and who we worked for and that was the end of the meeting you have any other interaction with the london gold response team no
01:58:53 what are your observations then please if any on the response after the london gold team took over from rbkc and we know that that was on the 16th of june did you notice any
01:59:04 the 16th of june did you notice any difference we know the westway was kind of more stood up as it were and had got a more
01:59:10 a more robust
01:59:12 robust response that all the organizations were being based at the west way and we were told to send people to the west way should they need any kind of help from
01:59:23 should they need any kind of help from housing etc etc and actually because we were giving away grants we were invited to send stuff up to the west way and which i did and my staff refused to go after day one and why was that
01:59:36 go after day one and why was that because they said they felt it was inhumane and cruel that people were being asked multiple times by multiple agencies to talk about the fact that they were bereaved or that they fled
01:59:47 they were bereaved or that they fled fire it was it was traumatizing people over and over again so we withdrew from the west way thank you
01:59:56 in your statement you say that your estimate is that the rpt supported around 210 people consisting of 165 households from
02:00:07 consisting of 165 households from grenfell tower and grenfell walk is that right that's right yeah do you remember roughly how many of these people were supported in the first week following the fire i have no idea everyone who came to rpt
02:00:19 everyone who came to rpt we supported we didn't kind of have a cap on that if you were from the tower you were welcome and in this paragraph that i've just referred to and again we don't we can go to if you want to but you also mentioned
02:00:30 to if you want to but you also mentioned grenfell walk so was there a time later on where your services opened up yes to grandfath because grenfell what we very again there was an absence of information we were unaware that grenfell what was so badly affected and
02:00:43 grenfell what was so badly affected and then as soon as we found out it was we um
02:00:46 um allowed people from grenfell walk to use the center and opened up our grants program to grandfather walk too do you remember roughly when that was i don't it certainly wasn't maybe towards the end of the first week and into the
02:00:58 the end of the first week and into the second week were you aware of something called the hask humanitarian assistance steering steering group and so is it right to say you weren't invited to any of those meetings in the
02:01:09 invited to any of those meetings in the first week do you have any views on what difference it might have made if rest center leaders like you were invited to these strategic types of meetings
02:01:20 strategic types of meetings yeah well i can guess because in truth to us none of it really mattered but to people who'd run for their lives and were bereaved it would have mattered a
02:01:31 were bereaved it would have mattered a lot if we were able to give them simple answers to simple questions like where will i be sleeping tonight where will i be sleeping tomorrow night instead we were left
02:01:40 were left taking questions and hoping we could find the answers on their behalf but there was an absolute absence of any communication or any information at all so even if that even if we'd got a bit
02:01:52 so even if that even if we'd got a bit of that that would have been really useful
02:01:56 useful turning to a slightly different topic then please you say in your statement um
02:02:01 um and this is at paragraph 91 there was no interaction with central government at a strategic level nick heard who at the time was the minister of state for policing and fire service attended the rpt in the immediate aftermath
02:02:13 rpt in the immediate aftermath offering his help and support what specific support did nick heard offer well he we told him about some specific issues particularly related to his role of minister of police and fired we've
02:02:25 of minister of police and fired we've got a chap who was really reluctant to take any money from us he wanted to work his car was in the in the exclusion zone um that he earned his living with he was a driver
02:02:37 earned his living with he was a driver and we asked nick if he could um get that car out so this chap could earn a living that's just a really practical example but also channeling these messages in that we had no idea what was
02:02:48 messages in that we had no idea what was going on and if he could find out that would have been a great thing or if he could move things around so someone would talk to us and tell us what would what was happening that would have been a great thing too
02:02:59 a great thing too what was he able to provide any indication as to what coordination was going on at a central government level yeah i mean it was all very strategic and saying you know gold commands in um you know southwark are leading it
02:03:11 you know southwark are leading it assisted by other people and all the rest of it but it made its best no difference day to day so did you find it helpful the support offered from nick heard uh i found it useful in that it directly helped
02:03:24 useful in that it directly helped residents where he could that was useful but
02:03:28 but although he was you know telling me what was happening it was having no impact really on the ground and turning now please into paragraph 86 of your statement and if we can go to it
02:03:39 of your statement and if we can go to it you outline what you consider the organizational challenges to be
02:03:45 to be at the time and you say the rpt is not an emergency response organization nothing like this was ever envisaged and the scale of the grenfell fire and the numbers of people
02:03:56 grenfell fire and the numbers of people that were affected was unprecedented we had no plan to deal with a disaster like this however our skill is in our ability to understand and work with people therefore we were able
02:04:09 therefore we were able to mobilize a large volunteer workforce and very quickly very quickly who put their lives on hold for considerable periods of time and we could distribute financial aid rapidly from the rpt's own
02:04:21 financial aid rapidly from the rpt's own funds and money from supporters in the locality this had a very real and immediate impact is that right that's right yeah what what was particularly significant
02:04:32 what what was particularly significant in your view of being able to understand and work with the people directly affected
02:04:36 affected well this response was human to human when you're saying to somebody how when you can clearly see somebody's in need and sometimes that's just about compassion care and kindness then just
02:04:47 compassion care and kindness then just about anybody half decent can help with that we we were looking our community the north kent in the community was looking after its own people in the
02:04:58 looking after its own people in the absence of anything coming from anywhere else and that's really what happened that people just got alongside other human beings and did what we we could practically to support them at a really
02:05:09 practically to support them at a really difficult time and uh and that was it really local people looking after local people although there was an a national mood that helped become people you know i've seen it in
02:05:20 become people you know i've seen it in the paper people were coming or from all over to help and it's a sad indictment really that um people were getting out of bed to help their fellow neighbours when other people weren't getting out of their
02:05:31 people weren't getting out of their offices to help our citizens and you continue at paragraph 87 and you've got it on your screen there and you say in my view the lack of communication from other lead agencies
02:05:43 communication from other lead agencies at a strategic level outlining what the plan was and how things were being managed was the biggest challenge at the rpt
02:05:51 rpt i kept thinking that help and support would come from other lead organizations however it never materialized yeah how did you feel as a professional trying to do your best leading this center
02:06:03 do your best leading this center trying to organize a response waiting for help that in your words never came yeah that that was i found it remarkable i mean this is you know one of the wealthiest countries
02:06:14 you know one of the wealthiest countries in the world and this is london you know that's dealt with some enormous challenges and um and
02:06:21 and an absence of complete absence of um coordination communication and response it was staggering and that in itself was kind of made me think are we out of the
02:06:33 kind of made me think are we out of the loop at rpt is it happening elsewhere is something happening elsewhere so we reached out to people that we knew like clement james like the almanar like
02:06:43 and they were all exactly the same we were trying to find out between us what was going on and none of us were successful thank you um turning now then please to ask you about your observations on the official
02:06:55 about your observations on the official response in a little bit more detail can we go please to paragraph 109 of your statement
02:07:06 you say here from what we experienced at the rpt there was no overarching leadership and coordination in the immediate aftermath of the fire the local community helped themselves with support
02:07:18 community helped themselves with support from others in your view what could government have done better to better coordinate the response and what impact might that have had on the rpt and its response one of
02:07:30 had on the rpt and its response one of the most hindsight's a wonderful thing one of the most remarkable things that i've heard is that councils have to ask for help before it comes and and it was clear to me at nine
02:07:42 comes and and it was clear to me at nine o'clock on the morning of the immediately after the fire that the borough were not able to cope so why just leave the borough unable to cope until they've worked out you know why
02:07:54 until they've worked out you know why they why they're unable to cope before somebody steps in that i found that remarkable and i still do it it's incredible that that that can happen um but what do i think they could have done
02:08:06 but what do i think they could have done we could have had better communication we could have had somebody come to our center with it even with the phone that knew that other people or other centers with the phone that had a connection to gold command that were relaying
02:08:17 gold command that were relaying information both ways we could have had um you know almost like a key worker situation we'd organized that in 24 hours that if someone came to rpt they'd
02:08:29 hours that if someone came to rpt they'd never had to tell their story more than once and that was the first time that they came because we shared that story so we weren't when i went to the westway center
02:08:38 center um
02:08:40 um i went and it was almost like one of those you know multiple choice things on a telephone where you press and this was a conversation hello i'm come for a meeting and i and they said
02:08:51 come for a meeting and i and they said are you a survivor are you bereaved or are you a visitor because that depended on i mean that's how you're asked if you were bereaved you know
02:09:01 you know those simple things led from the front about a compassionate response that started with human beings and ended with human beings that that would have been
02:09:12 human beings that that would have been far better so i'm sure stuff was happening at strategic level about who was the bronze and who was the gold and all the rest of it but who was really looking after people who had lost their children in the fire
02:09:24 children in the fire was far from people's minds because they were left to god and good neighbors and that can't be right in 2017 in central london
02:09:34 london uh touching briefly please on your interaction with the tmo in your statement at paragraph 93 you said that there was no interaction with the tmo is that right that's right we've heard evidence from witnesses from
02:09:46 we've heard evidence from witnesses from the tmo who say that staff was sent to the rpt were you aware of tmo staff at the rpt i i had a glancing experience in the tma we saw two people in hybrids dracketts
02:09:59 we saw two people in hybrids dracketts who were stood near the door and they were leaving they got a few scraps of paper and i said to riley it was the chap who was um running the door who were they and he said i think they're from the tma
02:10:10 from the tma so they never made themselves known to us was that on the 14th yes was there a desk set up or anything like that no they never they didn't make themselves known to us we we guessed they would see america's got high vis jackets on
02:10:23 high vis jackets on right
02:10:23 right um if i can ask you to turn please to paragraph 108 of your statement
02:10:32 here you say none of the agencies engaged with the community quickly enough to make any discernible difference to them or their situation by the time any serious
02:10:43 situation by the time any serious attempt was made the community no longer trusted the organizations to support them it came too little too late what difference might it have made if rbkc had integrated organizations like
02:10:55 rbkc had integrated organizations like the rpt
02:10:56 the rpt in their emergency planning
02:11:00 early on on the 14th of june
02:11:05 i i honestly don't know because i can't imagine what that might look like but i can only imagine it might have been better because at least we'd have dealt with the communication stuff at least we did help with the practical stuff about
02:11:16 did help with the practical stuff about whether we were a rest center or not because we never knew we'd been designated a rest center or been described as a rest center until early evening and things like that so
02:11:27 early evening and things like that so just improving communication and improving
02:11:30 improving that coordination of support might have been really useful
02:11:35 useful but we're a youth organization in north carolina we're not um an organisation that's geared up to deliver emergency response off so we would have been an ally to the borough rather than a
02:11:46 ally to the borough rather than a leading actor and we ended up being a leading actor thank you i want to take you now please to a document it's lfb00119228
02:12:03 this is the mind the gap a review of the voluntary sector response to the grenfell tragedy report commissioned by the charity muslim aide are you aware of it
02:12:11 it if we turn to page two please which is the acknowledgements your name is listed there
02:12:17 there as somebody who contributed to the report is that correct that's correct i want to ask you about some of the conclusions and recommendations in the report if i may turning please to page seven
02:12:33 under the heading strengthening coordination which is the second one it says there were good ex there were good examples of the coordination in the grenfell response for example between
02:12:44 grenfell response for example between muslim charities between funders and those who collaborated around cash grant distribution overall links across the sector and between the sector and government were weak reflecting the lack
02:12:56 government were weak reflecting the lack of effective mechanisms to facilitate the involvement of the full range of actors engaged in emergencies at local level and beyond do you agree with this
02:13:07 level and beyond do you agree with this i do
02:13:08 i do why do you think this is an issue i think it's an issue for example we were trying to help people with cash and cash and grunt
02:13:19 with cash and cash and grunt distribution but we had no way of sharing information about who we were supporting how much money had gone out and that kind of stuff so improving that definitely would be useful having a
02:13:31 definitely would be useful having a central point for donations would have been really useful we were having people call us very early saying we want to donate to grenfell town fire and um
02:13:41 and um luckily
02:13:43 luckily the kensington chelsea foundation had started a
02:13:46 started a an appeal so we directed everyone to that and contacted them to tell them that's what we were doing rather than accepting donations but we this is stuff we all did by
02:13:57 but we this is stuff we all did by ourselves so um the gmru as it became known as grenfell muslim response unit some young muslim guys and women came to help and started to
02:14:09 and women came to help and started to support community and organize um the flow of funds they were supported by the national zacap foundation we we we made those links ourselves very
02:14:20 we we made those links ourselves very quickly because we knew those links needed to be made we work in a really diverse
02:14:26 diverse community and and meeting the needs of diverse communities requires a diverse response thank you
02:14:35 thank you and in any future emergency how do you think a coordinated response between local central government and the voluntary community and faith sector how do you think that might be achieved
02:14:46 do you think that might be achieved um
02:14:48 um you know
02:14:49 you know by legislation basically because i think if anything's optional then it won't happen so they need to legislate to make sure that that happens and that the the voluntary sector
02:15:01 and that the the voluntary sector organizations are not just a voluntary sector infrastructure organizations but those organizations that are embedded in communities are involved in those plants are unaware of those plans and and their strengths are added
02:15:12 strengths are added to that of others and you just touched on a diversity point can we look at page 36 please
02:15:25 it's the second sub heading embracing diversity in the voluntary sector it says the community affected by the fire was highly heterogeneous and this was reflected in people's different linguistic religious cultural physical and
02:15:37 religious cultural physical and psychological needs catering to this diversity requires organizational identities and cultures that are attuned with it highlighting the critical importance both of enhancing the
02:15:48 importance both of enhancing the diversity of volunteers staff and leadership in mainstream emergency response actors and embracing the contribution of others do you agree with
02:15:59 contribution of others do you agree with this i do
02:16:00 this i do and how do you think this work could be achieved what practical steps could be put in place um
02:16:10 i i can only speak from my own experience that we've got a largely a workforce that reflects our community locally and and building on those kind kinds of um
02:16:22 and building on those kind kinds of um things but it's the the line that i'm drawn to is mainstream emergency response actors and and i think that's a question for those rather than
02:16:33 rather than for me i can talk very candidly about from the portobello trust and how we meet um you know issues around diversity but for mainstream emergency actors i don't know
02:16:44 mainstream emergency actors i don't know that's not my area of expertise thank you are you aware of any specific efforts being made following the fire uh in the
02:16:53 uh in the north kensington area to improve the understanding of the diversity of the community no i'm not i am aware there was a pun london response to um
02:17:04 was a pun london response to um uh major incidents out i took part in a a couple of those meetings um and diversity was definitely on the agenda there
02:17:12 there now are you able to say briefly what sorts of issues around diversity were mentioned well issues around translation and also
02:17:20 and also a big issue for us was that this happened during ramadan which itself presented problems but wasn't immediately obvious to lots of people and with the help of
02:17:31 and with the help of some guys from the east london mosque and and other local uh people we ended up having a iftar on the street outside rugby portobello
02:17:42 on the street outside rugby portobello for thousands of people because people kind of um trying there was a failure to accept that this community were
02:17:52 deeply traumatized by what had happened but also how that manifests itself communities don't all grieve in the same way they don't you know we the english people if you look at archetypal
02:18:04 people if you look at archetypal stereotypes they're very stoic it's difficult stiff upper lip that's not the case across loads of different communities and actually understanding and being able to respond to that is really important
02:18:15 really important thank you and you touched briefly on sort of bigger voluntary organizations do you have any views on how big a voluntary organization such as the british red cross could better utilize
02:18:26 british red cross could better utilize the experiences of frontline organizations like yours well i'm not sure it's experience but whether because we don't have this is the only experience we've got on a major incident the british red cross are far more
02:18:38 the british red cross are far more skilled at that but what it could do what it could do in these situations is much like the borough is integrate into the
02:18:46 the voluntary sector infrastructure that's already there by working with us as partners rather than just kind of turning up asking us for information thank you
02:18:55 thank you and if we could turn please might be on the same page 38
02:19:04 yes it's the second subheading enhancing collaboration between voluntary and faith based organizations it says here the london faith sector panel is strong
02:19:15 the london faith sector panel is strong in terms of the representation of faith constituencies and there are good links with faith networks at borough level links between the faith and secular voluntary panels are limited with one representative sitting in the others
02:19:27 representative sitting in the others meetings faith groups efforts are not helped by the fact that most have few if any dedicated personnel to work on resilience and response the grenfell disaster highlights the
02:19:38 disaster highlights the complementarities between faith-based and secular organizations and more might to be done at higher levels to foster these and share learning and planning in london
02:19:49 share learning and planning in london and elsewhere do you agree with that observation um yes i do as a general point is there anything further you'd say about why that in particular is important well one of the great things
02:20:00 important well one of the great things that
02:20:01 that we were able to rely on was our network already and we already knew some of the other uh
02:20:07 other uh people we knew my colleagues knew the community really well conversations with the almanar mosque for example but reads it were really easy we already knew abdul rahman so
02:20:17 so we could have those conversations about what they were doing and how we might support them and vice versa thank you can i please take you to the witness statement of adrian clee from the salvation army
02:20:28 salvation army it's cfv6059
02:20:33 page 13.
02:20:39 and it's just this portion second paragraph up from the bottom of the page with the roman numerals have you got that yeah
02:20:47 that yeah he says personally i believe that the civil contingencies act needs to be strengthened to make it a requirement for category 1 responders lrfs which is local resilience forums to
02:20:58 lrfs which is local resilience forums to involve the vcs in their emergency planning and exercising the act currently just says they must pay due regard to the voluntary sector and the role that it can play in responding to
02:21:10 role that it can play in responding to emergencies as a result there is not a consistent approach across the country within lrfs or local authorities some are examples of best practice in terms of lrf la vcs engagement some are very
02:21:24 of lrf la vcs engagement some are very poor the vcs vcs itself can continue to advocate for more engagement but unless involvement in the lrf la emergency planning process is mandated there will
02:21:36 planning process is mandated there will continue to be an inconsistent picture across the country do you agree with this assessment wholeheartedly is there anything further you would add to it i think it draws on my point earlier about
02:21:48 think it draws on my point earlier about legislation thank you since the grenfell tower fire have there been any efforts from rbkc to meaningfully involve the rpt in their emergency planning
02:22:00 emergency planning has there been any contact at all no well that has in that respect not in that respect has there been any involvement or work with the borough resilience forum on the rpt
02:22:11 resilience forum on the rpt and are you aware of there being any broader efforts within rbkc since the fire to engage with other community or faith organizations in terms of emergency planning and response
02:22:22 terms of emergency planning and response not that i'm aware of is there anything else that you would like to add to your evidence today no just um
02:22:28 just um drawing on my point earlier i find remain incredulous that this happened in london in 2017 and people were left
02:22:38 were left to
02:22:39 to their neighbors to to provide care comfort and shelter in one of the richest boroughs in the country and one of the richest cities in the world it still
02:22:51 it still shocks me to the core that that's how we treat our citizens in this country thank you very much those are all the prepared questions that i have for you we're going to take a pause to see if
02:23:02 we're going to take a pause to see if there are any others well mr sims when council gets to the end of her questions we always have a short break because she may want to reconsider and there are other people
02:23:13 reconsider and there are other people following proceedings from elsewhere who may
02:23:15 may want to suggest questions that we ought to be asking you okay so we'll stop uh for 10 minutes excuse me we'll come back at 25 to 5 and then we'll see whether there are any
02:23:26 there are any other questions we have for you i'm going to ask you to go with the usher in just a moment but when you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it okay all right thank you
02:23:37 relating to it okay all right thank you very much
02:23:46 i said 25 to 5 10 minutes i think will be enough won't it yes if not just let us know and we'll give you more thank you very much
02:34:32 would you ask mr sims to come back in please
02:34:43 right mr simpson let's see if there are any more questions for you shall we more questions and just thank you very much for coming to assist the inquiry today we're very grateful for your help thanks mr sims don't go for a moment
02:34:54 thanks mr sims don't go for a moment because i want to thank you on behalf of all three members of the panel you've come all the way down from nottinghamshire to give us your evidence i think is that right that's right yeah and that means it's a day out of your
02:35:05 and that means it's a day out of your life big time you get back again and uh it's but i'd like you to know it's been very helpful to us to hear everything you've had to tell us we've heard a lot about the rugby portobello trust during the course of
02:35:16 portobello trust during the course of the inquiry and i should have said the same about the clement james center when i was thanking um miss richards but it's been really interesting and helpful to us to hear
02:35:27 interesting and helpful to us to hear what it was like on the ground from the people who were there and
02:35:31 and i think you both may say so demonstrated a very impressive response to the incident so um thank you for coming to tell us about it thank you and now you're free to go thank you very much
02:35:50 well thank you very much mrs islam that must be it for today thank you and can i thank everybody for their patience for sitting a bit later and bearing with me uh this afternoon well thank you very much and of course we're very grateful
02:36:01 much and of course we're very grateful to those who keep us going and take the transcript and do all the other things that are necessary for our work um
02:36:08 um another witness tomorrow yes and we'll resume then at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning thank you thank you very much turner talk tomorrow
02:36:25 you