Robert Black (TMO Chief Executive) gives evidence about emergency planning and training gaps. Admits he never personally had emergency training, didn't attend the lessons learned meeting with RBKC after Adair Tower, and that TMO lacked a clearly defined role when RBKC's contingency plan was invoked.
00:00:25 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing uh today we're going to hear evidence from the last of the TMO Witnesses we're calling in this module yes Mr yes Mr chairman good morning
00:00:37 yes Mr yes Mr chairman good morning members of the panel good morning to you I now call Mr Robert black please thank
00:00:47 you theair good morning again Mr Black you're going to take the oath I think yeah there is a testament or should be a testament there next to you would you
00:00:58 testament there next to you would you take it in your right hand please and read the words on on the screen okay I swear by almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please s
00:01:09 thank you very much please s [Music]
00:01:16 [Music] done right yes Mr B yes Mr chairman thank you Mr Black good morning and welcome back to the inquiry we are as always very grateful to you for coming here and assisting us with our
00:01:28 here and assisting us with our investigations um again some words of introduction if you could please keep your voice up so that the person who sits to your right can get it down clearly on the transcript that would be very good if you can also just don't nod
00:01:40 very good if you can also just don't nod don't shake your head you have to say yes or no as the case may be we will be taking a break mid morning uh but if you need a break at any other time please let us know and we can do that and again
00:01:51 let us know and we can do that and again as before if you don't understand any of my questions or you would like me to rephrase them I can do that yeah now you've given us four statement two of those relate to phase one of the
00:02:02 two of those relate to phase one of the inquiry and two to this phase phase two I'll just put them to you again your first uh Phase 1 witness statement t148
00:02:13 t148 961 22nd of August 2018 there it is three pages if we can go to page three please signature is that your signature
00:02:24 please signature is that your signature it is thank you second witness statement for Phase 1 tmo50 888
00:02:30 tmo50 888 dated 8th February 2019 page 35 please if we can go to that is that your signature it is thank you third witness statement Phase 2 um
00:02:41 statement Phase 2 um tm1
00:02:43 tm1 48970 15th of March 2019 page
00:02:49 seven is that your signature it is thank you and your fourth uh witness statement your second phase 2 statement that is um in relation to off after maath that's
00:03:00 in relation to off after maath that's dat the 10th of December 2020 and if we could go please to and that that is at TMO
00:03:09 87150 uh uh and if we can go please to page 12 in that statement you'll see a signature is that your signature above the date of the 10th of December thank
00:03:20 the date of the 10th of December thank you uh and have you had the the opportunity to read these statements recently I have and are they true yes thank you very much now in the course of these questions I'm going to be looking with you at your third and fourth
00:03:32 with you at your third and fourth statements that you've just deposed to um I want just to ask you one or two general background matters first uh as you've said before you were the chief executive of the TMO and at the time of
00:03:43 executive of the TMO and at the time of the Grandfield Tower fire yes I was yes and you were in that role from 2009 until the 31st of December 2017 yes yes yes and I think you've spent your career
00:03:54 yes and I think you've spent your career working in a number of roles relating to housing management particularly social housing yes yes yes now I'm going to ask you about emergency planning and training uh can we please have up
00:04:05 training uh can we please have up tm11
00:04:11 3898 this is the first page of the kctm emergency plan which I think you and I looked at together in phase one back in 2018 didn't we did and if we look at page three of this document you can see the revision
00:04:23 the revision dates there the last was revised in 2016 February 2016 is it right that this was man managed by the health and safety team yes uh were you familiar with this
00:04:34 team yes uh were you familiar with this document at the time of the fire yes now if we go to your third statement please that's tm1 48970 page two paragraph
00:04:48 11 you you say there uh the TMO had its own emergency plan formulated and managed by its health and safety team to respond to incidents and emergencies but it was never intended to to apply to a
00:05:00 it was never intended to to apply to a major incident such as the GRL Tower fire what what what do you mean by a major incident such as the gral tower fire why wasn't it attended to apply to that well suppose from our experience
00:05:12 that well suppose from our experience most of the emergencies I've dealt with over 30 years working in house and have tended to be quite small uh resolved quite quickly uh haven't resulted in a
00:05:24 quite quickly uh haven't resulted in a Terri blot going up in flames and people losing their life in such numbers so so for
00:05:31 so so for my position is how we how we managed either my experience before or how at the time will we manage smaller fires or incidents which fell within our resources and we felt we could manage it
00:05:44 resources and we felt we could manage it uh I think it there was the first time we raised that that could have been a difficult one in terms of actually going into the evening and that would have caused those problems in terms of having to house so many people so a sense it
00:05:58 to house so many people so a sense it was scale in terms of grul for me and I think for everything is off the scale in terms of actually having to manage a disaster and beyond our resources and if we turn the page to
00:06:09 resources and if we turn the page to page uh three paragraph 12 you say TMO was of course a social housing management company providing services to residents on behalf of rbkc and had limited resources it was fully
00:06:21 limited resources it was fully recognized that TMO did not have the resources to be able to respond to a major incident such as greni Tower fire and in such circumstances the RB KC emergency plan would operate as it did
00:06:32 emergency plan would operate as it did on the night of the fire from a very early stage the rbkc emergency plan remained in place for the duration of the period under scrutiny by the inquiry now now um against that
00:06:43 now now um against that background uh can I look let's look together at the emergency plan again tm11
00:06:50 tm11 3898 the document I put to you just a moment ago and if we turn in it to page 13
00:06:56 13 please if we go to page 13 you can see this is part one kctm emergency planning uh and under the the heading there uh it
00:07:08 uh it says uh under introduction um there is an there is an rbkc emergency plan which can be found on the rbkc inter intranet this can if
00:07:19 on the rbkc inter intranet this can if necessary be implemented via the rbkc emergency planning officer David Kerry who needs to be informed via CSC Pinnacle at the earliest opportunity a decision will be made by him whether to
00:07:31 decision will be made by him whether to invoke the council emergency plan and the additional resources that are available to him outside of normal working hours the rbkc Barra duty officer would control these resources so just pausing there was it
00:07:43 resources so just pausing there was it right that that the decision whether to invoke the rbkc emergency plan was so far as the TMO is concerned one for the rbkc based on a contact made by the TMO
00:07:54 rbkc based on a contact made by the TMO with
00:07:55 with rbkc yes I think so I think David KY was head of emergency planning and they had local Authority lasing officers on the ground uh and under the next heading kmo
00:08:08 ground uh and under the next heading kmo emergency plan it says this sets out the roles and responsibilities within the kctm in the event of a major incident which is defined as uh and then it goes on a major incident or natural disaster resulting
00:08:20 incident or natural disaster resulting in either death injury or serious disruption to normal life which would acutely stretch the kctm Mo's resources and which may ultimately overwhelm the K cma's capacity to manage without
00:08:32 cma's capacity to manage without assistance from the council and if you continue after the next definition uh it says this the plan is primarily for managing local kctm
00:08:44 primarily for managing local kctm emergencies on within or surrounding our properties and Estates one which can be managed within the resources available to the
00:08:51 to the kctm however this plan can also be used for large scale major events which would overwhelm kctm Mo's ability to manage on its own and which would involve the rbkc
00:09:02 its own and which would involve the rbkc council resources the difference being the scale of the emergency and the number of people affected by it now do you accept looking at that uh that although it was as I've shown you and you've agreed for rbkc to invoke its own
00:09:15 you've agreed for rbkc to invoke its own emergency plan nonetheless the tmo's emergency plan did envisage a role for the TMO in the event of a major incident yes yes and that the plan the tmo's plan
00:09:26 yes yes and that the plan the tmo's plan could apply in such a situation I think parts it could yes parts of it and indeed it says uh that it could be used for large scale major events which would overwhelm the km's ability to manage on
00:09:38 overwhelm the km's ability to manage on its own but do you accept that there's nothing preventing the plan being applied in response to the Grandfield Tower fire even although of course it would be alongside RB KC's own
00:09:51 involvement yes in principle I think in the reality of the night it was overwhelming and again RB B's plan was in place by the time I got there and I think that's
00:10:02 the time I got there and I think that's been my experience in all emergencies that by the time you get there either the police the fire brigade or the local Authority have actually got presence on the ground because the issue for us all the time is with very few staff actually
00:10:14 the time is with very few staff actually live in area so it it create it takes time to get resources to come forward yes but just looking at the what this plan the tmo's plan contemplated do you
00:10:25 plan the tmo's plan contemplated do you accept that it it didn't contemplate that the TMO would as it were Dr drop out in the event of a large scale major incident which would overwhelm its resources it would continue to play a part alongside rbkc yes yes and
00:10:39 part alongside rbkc yes yes and therefore do you accept that TMO staff involved in an emergency response ought to have been well equipped to undertake the those roles if the situation required it by roles I mean the roles of
00:10:52 required it by roles I mean the roles of of of working within the emergency alongside rbkc yes yes now the plan I think you would see confers a number of roles on TMO staff in the event of an emergency and and
00:11:06 in the event of an emergency and and that that would include the possibility of opening and managing a rest center to cater for those affected yes yes and also to arrange rooll calls of residents and identify special needs and disabilities and Advising on those yes
00:11:18 disabilities and Advising on those yes yes um and you were aware of those roles at the time were you yes uh and just to for reference purposes they're set out at page 28 and I've summarized them for
00:11:29 at page 28 and I've summarized them for for you um turning to training then can we go to your third witness statement again please and this time go to page three paragraph
00:11:41 16 and you say there I understand that some TMO staff had been involved in training exercises with rbkc in relation to operation of the plans but I do not know the detail and I was not personally
00:11:53 know the detail and I was not personally involved I'm aware that under the managements of the health and safety team as a specific lesson learned debrief exercise following implementation of rbk's emergency plan in relation to the fire at ader Tower in
00:12:05 in relation to the fire at ader Tower in October 2015 was conducted at which TMO and rbkc staff participated again I'm not familiar with the detail now I think it's right isn't it
00:12:16 detail now I think it's right isn't it and if it's wrong tell me but you never yourself personally had ever undertaken any training in relation to emergency planning and response during your time at the TMO no no and you hadn't attended
00:12:28 at the TMO no no and you hadn't attended any joint training with our bkc about how their plan would work in practice or what role the TMO would have in the event of their plan being invoked is that
00:12:37 that right yes yes sir yes nor I think is this correct you didn't yourself attend the Lessons Learned debrief exercise arising out of the Adair Tower fire I I
00:12:48 arising out of the Adair Tower fire I I was at the executive when it was presented I was at the board when it's presented and I think it was the meeting with rbc's house and team when it was presented I wasn't at the meeting which
00:12:59 presented I wasn't at the meeting which was arranged later on with uh rbc's emergency planning team I wasn't at that I think having listened to Theresa it was Theresa and uh Janice Ray attended
00:13:12 was Theresa and uh Janice Ray attended that meeting yes that was the 11th of April 2016 with a document we looked at yesterday with Theresa Brown I think and with other Witnesses why did you not attend that meeting I'm I mean I think it was one of
00:13:25 meeting I'm I mean I think it was one of ones when we spoke to Laura it was it took 80s to set up and for whether I wasn't available on the day it was set up uh but actually they seemed the appropriate people to be at that meeting
00:13:36 appropriate people to be at that meeting to to share the lessons that we'd learned at a there are you saying when you say in the last answer that I was I was at the executive when it was presented and at the board when it was
00:13:48 presented and at the board when it was presented are you saying that a Lessons Learned debrief was given to the executive team as far as I em yeah as far as I can recall uh Janice present
00:13:59 far as I can recall uh Janice present uh a paper to ET which was sort of out outline of lessons she thought we'd learned and anything we can contribute ourself and based on that
00:14:10 can contribute ourself and based on that we took it to rbkc and again you were on the you were at the meeting or a board meeting where you in your attend in Your Capacity as as Chief as chief executive at TMO when
00:14:21 as Chief as chief executive at TMO when the debrief lessons were presented to the board yes yes I as far as I can recall so did from the Lessons Learned did you learn that it was important that there were robust
00:14:33 it was important that there were robust training processes in place within the TMO to make sure the TMO staff were adequately trained in the event of an emergency as was what I learned actually
00:14:44 emergency as was what I learned actually we managed the situation as quite well in the end in terms of actually being able to provide support uh to the residents in a
00:14:55 support uh to the residents in a situation and as supp with the D it chains from a a a small fire and a flat on the third floor and what changed that because I think it was a Saturday uh was
00:15:07 because I think it was a Saturday uh was when the fireade decided to evacuate it and that meant actually residance couldn't get back in so it pushed the timeline of us been able to uh get the checks on the building done on the
00:15:18 checks on the building done on the floors that were damaged or water damaged and to make sure the other flat so what the biggest lesson we learned and then speaking to rbkc is that while we could deal or maybe rehouse a small
00:15:31 we could deal or maybe rehouse a small number of people if you're going to rehouse a whole block that was beyond our ability to do that uh I think we also learned that we had one of the
00:15:42 also learned that we had one of the things I'd learned ages ago that actually if you have an emergency you need cash because people leave a building without taking things so we did have cash which we actually distributed that day to anybody that required it
00:15:54 that day to anybody that required it that was one of the lessons picked up by rbkc also our staff had credit cards because in so you could actually book hotels one of the things is even if you're a local Authority hotels still want you to pay by credit card to secure
00:16:07 want you to pay by credit card to secure the bookings so there were lessons in terms of actually how that uh incident evolved and how it changed and it felt manageable within uh the resources we
00:16:18 manageable within uh the resources we had in terms of the staff on the ground and how we supported people but I think like everything we should have I do think there there should have been more training that's
00:16:29 should have been more training that's own
00:16:30 own reflection why wasn't there I can't recall whether it mean I can't recall at the moment so uh let's uh look at paragraph 15 the previous
00:16:42 uh look at paragraph 15 the previous paragraph of this statement on page three you say in circumstances where rbc's plan was in operation TMO had no formal role except to provide resource and support to rbkc when requested by
00:16:54 and support to rbkc when requested by them to do so that is how it was planned and
00:16:57 and operated um that was my interpretation that was your interpretation um it's not in fact quite right is it because um according to the parts of the tmo's emergency plan that
00:17:09 parts of the tmo's emergency plan that you and I have just looked at the TMO does have a role um even in an e a major emergency to sit alongside rbkc I accept that point yes was there ever in the light of that a any kind of
00:17:20 light of that a any kind of pre-agreement any any work done between rbkc and TMO um about the role TMO would actually practice occupy in the event of
00:17:31 actually practice occupy in the event of a major
00:17:32 a major emergency I don't think so apart from the meeting my team hired with emergency planning right did you ever yourself seek formally to clarify the role of the TMO and identify clear duties and
00:17:43 TMO and identify clear duties and responsibilities in the event of a major emergency no I didn't do that why is that I felt that having raised it with Laura Johnson the team that that was part of how they would bring it forward
00:17:54 part of how they would bring it forward to us and tell us how we fit into it
00:18:00 um let's look at TMO
00:18:11 84414 um this is a TMO executive team meeting U um on the 11th of November 2015 at which you were present together with Ivon Burch and
00:18:22 present together with Ivon Burch and Barbara Matthews and also Sasha jevans as you can see uh and if you go please to item three at the top of page two the minutes record as follows um Adder response ader
00:18:36 record as follows um Adder response ader Tower responses Barbara noted that she is coordinating all responses to ensure consistency the following requests have been made and then if you look at the next main paragraph down below the bullet points um uh it uh it says uh RB
00:18:52 bullet points um uh it uh it says uh RB KC's emergency planning officer David Kerry did dispatch a liaison officer and when Robert had spoken to Laura Johnson and she put forward a Mana gild to help overall it was felt that rbkc was supportive but going forward it would be
00:19:05 supportive but going forward it would be good for the TMO to be more involved with rbkc on their emergency planning strategy so that contact numbers and roles and responsibilities are known by all and then it goes on the tmo's
00:19:17 all and then it goes on the tmo's emergency plan was discussed and it was agreed that it would be good for et to have a session with Janice Ray and hash shamchun to get a greater understanding of who owns and updates it and Lessons
00:19:28 of who owns and updates it and Lessons Learned From the fire at ad Tower Jill to
00:19:31 to arrange and what action if any was taken as a result of that decision or that discussion to to make sure roles and responsibilities are known to all or
00:19:42 responsibilities are known to all or known by all as it says in the last line of the first paragraph I've just read to
00:19:48 you I'm in terms I'm not sure if the ET meeting that followed this uh was where we had the discussion around the lessons learned from there is is that the right
00:20:00 learned from there is is that the right sorry is that the right timeline I'm afraid well I was asking you I mean just trying to remember at some time ago so in a sense we did have a meeting to to
00:20:11 in a sense we did have a meeting to to talk about uh lessons learns which we then took to rbkc uh and I would have seen that meeting that Theresa went to and Janice went to would have picked up these issues
00:20:23 issues here yeah I mean my question is was there any training specific training uh on the tmo's emergency plan for the executive team at at the very least so
00:20:35 executive team at at the very least so that the executive team knew what the precise roles and responsibilities were as between rbkc on the one hand and the TMO on the other I can't recall I'm
00:20:46 TMO on the other I can't recall I'm afraid it's down for my P arrange and I don't I can't recall if that happened right I think it's right isn't it that there was there was no training rolled
00:20:57 there was there was no training rolled out to the to TMO staff about how how their own roles and responsibilities uh were were clearly to be followed so I don't so we didn't as far as I recall we
00:21:09 don't so we didn't as far as I recall we didn't do training for all staff we did training with our own call staff and our right of own out of ours contractors to be clear about their roles when they were on duty and is it correct that
00:21:21 were on duty and is it correct that despite this discussion at the TMO executive meeting on the 11th of November 2015 at the time of the Grandfield Tower fire the TMO still lacked a formal role a clearly and
00:21:32 lacked a formal role a clearly and formally defined role in in the event that K rbk's contingency planning uh systems were invoked I would probably have to agree
00:21:45 invoked I would probably have to agree with that yeah okay now let's then turn to the the role of the TMO and interaction a little bit more closely um if we go to your third statement again please par page five this time paragraph
00:21:56 please par page five this time paragraph 23
00:22:01 it says tmo's role in the aftermath was therefore very much to provide support to rbkc when requested by rbkc to do so and all issues raised by residents and others were required to be directed to rbkc who performed the Emergency
00:22:14 rbkc who performed the Emergency Management role were any specific requests for assistance made by rbkc to the TMO uh to your knowledge in the immediate afterm of the fire I mean the key one was request for information from
00:22:26 key one was request for information from our system in terms of the 10 encies and leas holders to start developing the the understanding who was there on the night and afterwards uh there was certainly
00:22:39 and afterwards uh there was certainly issues around uh the whole mechanical engineering so because in GRL ter all the mechanical engineering for the walkways was held with fire sort of
00:22:50 walkways was held with fire sort of disabled that so there was throughout the day and the days after uh requests for in terms of actually how you place the boiler and the heating and things
00:23:01 the boiler and the heating and things like that
00:23:02 like that uh so core housing matters core housing matters can we go please to your fourth statement page one paragraph 4 you say
00:23:13 statement page one paragraph 4 you say there uh in the uh um the second line that the TMO assisted rbkc who were managing the rest centers Theresa and her team
00:23:25 rest centers Theresa and her team attended at the rest centers on the night of the fire assist in the residents in any way that they could and I believe that the assistance provided in the weeks following the fire was simply a continuation of this to my
00:23:36 simply a continuation of this to my knowledge rbkc did not request this assistance but understandably welcomed the tmo's support as the TMO had more resources in terms of the numbers of PE number of people who knew both the
00:23:47 number of people who knew both the business and the residents so was the assistance offered by the TMO staff on a voluntary
00:23:56 voluntary basis I mean I mean I recognize from the statement before that where I said they did I mean partly was trying to remember on the night when you had conversations all the time uh and
00:24:07 conversations all the time uh and whether they asked or not I I felt that the issue we had is we had the houseing management staff and actually if we can use them to help uh add value to the
00:24:20 use them to help uh add value to the rbc's plan that was the right thing to do
00:24:23 do uh Yes actually partly confusing I had lots of conversations with Laura and she might have said can you help us this way but it was a dynamic situation that we
00:24:34 but it was a dynamic situation that we were sort of rushing about doing things so but in the in the dynamic situation where you're rushing about doing things were you rushing about doing things on a
00:24:45 were you rushing about doing things on a essentially a voluntary basis or were you following a set of directions clearly bounded given to you by lbkc I think it was probably a mixture
00:24:56 lbkc I think it was probably a mixture of of two it was voluntary on the night to bring in resources to support and as the the days unfolded it's how we fitted into their responses in terms of actually providing support where they
00:25:08 actually providing support where they required right so I think it's it's a mixture so so so would it be fair to say I suppose that you co-worked on a reactive basis uh responding to the situation as best you could as it
00:25:20 situation as best you could as it evolved I think that's well put let's then ask look at your own involvement you attended the site in the early hours of the f fire and I think is it right that was the only occasion in that first
00:25:31 that was the only occasion in that first week following the fire that you attended the the site the tower uh and given that your staff were actively involved on the ground why didn't you attend the scene more frequently to offer leadership
00:25:43 frequently to offer leadership encouragement oversight support so I suppose what I did offer staff support uh we had our staff structure uh there were other issues about me being on site
00:25:56 were other issues about me being on site which have seen as uh not very sensible due to uh after the fire a number of issues happening which rais concerns about safety appropriate
00:26:07 rais concerns about safety appropriate is that going to is it going to be sensible to have me there if people don't want you because actually it's taking the focus away from the the rescue you're trying to do so I in the
00:26:19 rescue you're trying to do so I in the sense set myself up as that that we managing my company the TMO and all the issues that were affecting it not just with the disaster that was happening in in one part of the company but there we
00:26:31 in one part of the company but there we also had 9,000 other homes across the border we were still responsible for and still seeking to provide service and manage all the issues that had been raised after the fire so we although I
00:26:42 raised after the fire so we although I wasn't there I was in touch with staff staff who were on the ground I met them at our different offices uh and I was in sense doing other strategic issues that
00:26:54 sense doing other strategic issues that were coming at my uh full force every day that I was is there now you say in that last answer that you were managing the TMO and all the issues that were affecting it where were you doing that
00:27:05 affecting it where were you doing that from uh from 346 and the Hub right so we two offices in the middle of the bar and one in the north right let's in light of that let's just help me with something if you go to your fourth statement
00:27:17 if you go to your fourth statement please at page three Turn the Page paragraph
00:27:21 paragraph 12 you say
00:27:25 there I personally had little role in managing the TMO staff members leading the response on the ground as it was more appropriate that this be led by Sasha and Theresa who had the housing experience knowledge and background
00:27:38 experience knowledge and background during this period I was based at the TMO office dealing with matters arising from the fire reporting on issues to the TMO board executive team and other interested parties and actioning issues uh actioning issues arising from
00:27:51 issues uh actioning issues arising from rbkc Gold group therefore whilst not present on the ground to provide physical support to staff members I provided higher level support in coordinating the resources and support
00:28:02 coordinating the resources and support required by both of them and other relevant
00:28:05 relevant parties
00:28:07 parties uh so you say higher level support what what do you mean by that first so the context I have a housing management team I had leaders of that team and a
00:28:19 I had leaders of that team and a director of housing an exact director of housing whose key role in their roles were to manage the housing and all that entails I as Chief EXA had other roles
00:28:30 entails I as Chief EXA had other roles to play so in in ter I had a board to who were seeking information from me so we have a board of 15 uh eight residents who were board members were uh finding
00:28:42 who were board members were uh finding it incredibly challenging themselves uh the board had duties it was responsible for that it wanted answers for
00:28:53 for that it wanted answers for uh in terms that comes with the rule of Chief exec if that's what I meant by higher level ensuring my company or the company had enough was seeking enough resources and was able to deliver on what we were
00:29:05 was able to deliver on what we were trying to deliver and deal with all the issues coming through uh the change in working practices HR governance legal what what practical support did
00:29:16 legal what what practical support did you offer Theresa Brown and her team to deliver uh in their roles at rest centers so with Theresa I spoke to her all the time by telephone if she idiot I mean as you saw her she's a competent
00:29:29 mean as you saw her she's a competent person who had her team on the ground and was working I spoke to Theresa uh and we had other people who who were providing support to her
00:29:40 providing support to her and I afraid I can't come up with a range of things but I was pleased to say here that she said yesterday that she felt supported and that's what I would like I'm pleased she said in Practical
00:29:52 like I'm pleased she said in Practical terms did you have a regular up set of updates from her yeah I mean so really from the begin beginning of it we had almost like a day-to-day running meetings with whoever was available that
00:30:04 meetings with whoever was available that be exactly senior management team uh board uh to try to make sure that we're trying to keep as many people informed as possible so we also attended some
00:30:15 as possible so we also attended some other meetings in off to talk to staff about what was going on the bigger picture uh so those meetings were used to share support uh and to try to sort
00:30:26 to share support uh and to try to sort of get ahead of the game which was difficult because it was a fast moving uh environment that seemed to grow as each day went on in terms of the the the
00:30:37 each day went on in terms of the the the humanitarian crisis that the fire did do you remember whether she reported any problems to you and which needed either rbkc resources or London Gold well I
00:30:48 rbkc resources or London Gold well I think sometimes when we I went to London Gold meetings for a number of times I think it was F the first five and then it was a break and then some more so we use those me to actually raise any
00:30:59 use those me to actually raise any issues that they saw that I could raise at London Gold or vice versa but during the first 24 hours 48 hours after the fire did she ask for more resources did she tell you she wasn't coping in such a
00:31:11 she tell you she wasn't coping in such a way that led you to think that you needed rbc's resources or London Gold's resources so I so I think she never told me she wasn't coping uh I think that's one thing and I'm obviously did ask well
00:31:22 one thing and I'm obviously did ask well I did ask her uh second in terms of resources what we did was it in a sense the disaster stopped Us in terms of our normal services to 10,000 and what we
00:31:34 normal services to 10,000 and what we sought to do because it resulted in a change in working practice from General 9 to5 to trying to provide a 24hour cover which meant you had to actually ask staff to work different routes asked
00:31:46 ask staff to work different routes asked people to volunteer to help and what we I was then trying to do was was free up staff who would usually be doing their normal job M side that could come to the
00:31:57 normal job M side that could come to the nor and and help with the the work and then we would try to seek to backfill those positions with uh other people so that actually we could have more of our
00:32:08 that actually we could have more of our own staff helping out with the the the situation and I want to next I want to ask you next about a meeting on the morning of the 14th of June uh with um
00:32:20 morning of the 14th of June uh with um Mr Kerry and Mr Holgate David KY and Nicholas Holgate can we go please to rbk30 is 13296
00:32:28 I'll show you the first page of that to show you what it is this is David Kerry's typed emergency event log sheet as you can see bigger sorry sorry can we yes exp
00:32:40 see bigger sorry sorry can we yes exp that please thank you and you can see from the top right hand corner that it's dated the 14th of June 2017 can we go please to page uh 10 in it and if you look at the left hand side on page 10
00:32:52 look at the left hand side on page 10 you can see 10:00 meeting with David Kerry chief executive Nicholas Holgate director of housing Laura Johnson CEO KY TMO Robert black Council Silva Stewart Priestley do you remember how you became
00:33:04 Priestley do you remember how you became involved in that meeting did someone ring you ask you to attend or I would think that would have been it right if you look at the column on the right it says this in the second bullet point advice given by David kery to Lolas
00:33:15 advice given by David kery to Lolas Holgate I should say Holgate uh and then the first bullet point this incident is bigger than anyone local Authority in London can manage consideration should be given to asking for Mutual aid for
00:33:26 be given to asking for Mutual aid for the Beck there are people who can support NH that's Nicholas Holgate and rbkc Gold group including then there's a list of names uh John baradel Ellena Kelly Andrew Meek aliser SES do you
00:33:39 Kelly Andrew Meek aliser SES do you recall David kery advising Nicholas Holgate that the Grandfield Tower fire was an incident bigger than any one local Authority in London could manage he well I must done I can't
00:33:52 manage he well I must done I can't recall this meeting but I I'll go with the minutes you don't right so can we you don't have any reason to think that the minutes aren't an accurate reflection of what transpired right do you remember whe How Nicholas Holgate
00:34:03 you remember whe How Nicholas Holgate responded to David Kerry's advice as written
00:34:06 written here I no I can't advise you can't did you share David Kerry's view that the incident as you saw it by this point was bigger than any one local Authority could
00:34:17 could manage I mean I can't remember what I said but I was feeling that it was a it's a big incident and it was it was a bit overwhel whelming so
00:34:29 was it was a bit overwhel whelming so that that would be my opinion overwhelming for the TMO I think for I'd start with me individually oh I see then we just trying to explain what it's like when
00:34:40 trying to explain what it's like when you're there on this day that trying to actually sort of managed that so so I I I I think I wasn't quite clear at that time but I think as the days went on it
00:34:52 time but I think as the days went on it felt like it would got bigger than the rbkc could deal with was it your view that it was overwhelming in potentially for
00:35:00 for rbkc I'm not sure if I felt that at that meeting I think in later days I felt that it was good that other people were coming in to provide support I want to ask you next about rbkc gold group
00:35:13 ask you next about rbkc gold group meetings um the inquiry has seen records which indicate that you attended every rbkc gold meeting between the 14th of June and the 20th of June and and just
00:35:24 June and the 20th of June and and just to count them out for you we have you at two on the 14th two on the 15th two on the 16th one on the 19th and on the 20th is that is that correct yes now if we go
00:35:37 is that is that correct yes now if we go to your fourth statement please again page
00:35:40 page four paragraph 15 you say uh that your recollection is I was invited to the Gold group meetings by Nicholas Hol Gates PA Asha
00:35:52 Nicholas Hol Gates PA Asha gupter um is that right yes right why do you think that you were invited um to the rbkc Gold group meetings my question is what what did you think your role was
00:36:03 is what what did you think your role was in those meetings I think my role was to be so I wasn't part of Gold group so there was a sort of side where you you sat as attendee I think my role was to provide any
00:36:15 think my role was to provide any information or or that they requested at that time from the TMO and as we've been involved right and it wasn't in a sense it was a role just to be there and see
00:36:27 it was a role just to be there and see what you feel provide and if you look at your next paragraph paragraph 16 you say I understood the role of the TMO to be to respond to the requirements of the group mostly in the form of offering resources knowledge and experience of
00:36:39 resources knowledge and experience of the stock and residents uh now so do you accept based on what you say there that there was a role for the TMO in that you brought specific insight about the tower the
00:36:51 specific insight about the tower the local area and the residents in it that others might not have had yes yeah and what resources refer to resources did you offer the Gold group rbkc Gold group
00:37:02 you offer the Gold group rbkc Gold group at these meetings well the resources were the the staff on the ground who were providing support but also if there was specialist knowledge around uh Asset
00:37:13 was specialist knowledge around uh Asset Management which were was a big issue for us in terms of actually the mechanical engineering being affected across a large part of the
00:37:25 estate so the resources was were what staff on the ground with knowledge of the local community yes and and knowledge of the individual characteristics needs
00:37:37 individual characteristics needs vulnerabilities and organize it because we in sense managed the the housing so in sense our staff had local knowledge which again rbkc staff would have but
00:37:48 which again rbkc staff would have but there there weren't so many of them in their housing group um then let's turn to the first of the meetings um which took place at 11:00 a.m. on the 14th of June um at
00:38:00 11:00 a.m. on the 14th of June um at that meeting did did rbkc appear to be in control of the situation they did yes they did and uh let's go to the action sheet please from that meeting rbk30 is
00:38:12 sheet please from that meeting rbk30 is 23233 rbk30 is 23233 page one you could see who was present also in attendance you are named as well as Ivon Burch there do you see
00:38:23 as well as Ivon Burch there do you see that yeah now um if we um look at item one to the very foot of the page you can see if we scroll down there's an update from Rebecca Blackburn a number of updates uh set out in respective
00:38:36 updates uh set out in respective activities at rest centers and you can see there two two rest centers set up rugby Porto Bell trust and Clement James Center the Red Cross are at rpt managers were in place Turn the Page managers
00:38:51 were in place Turn the Page managers were in place at all the rest all the centers further rest center being set up at West way Sports Center British Red Cross are on standby to go in no idea on the number of people in the rest centers
00:39:02 the number of people in the rest centers but they're very busy no council officers present at the rest centers for a long time they are now there aware that a number of supporting rest centers which have been set up by the community have an officer on foot going around to
00:39:15 have an officer on foot going around to pass on information you see that yes just pausing there there's no record of the presence or involvement of TMO staff at the rest centers um my question showing you this is is this were you in active communication with your on the
00:39:28 active communication with your on the ground um and told about the activities being undertaken at these rest centers I would say yes you would say yes but do you recall
00:39:38 it I know that my staff were on the ground support and and were working with the rest centers and that was the key thing it was a bit sketchy because actually this was quite soon after it
00:39:50 actually this was quite soon after it and so it was almost like a first meeting where you're you're finding out what's going on across Laur do you remember whether you fed in any updates that you'd received from your TMO staff on the ground to this meeting not at that time we're under that heading and
00:40:02 that time we're under that heading and if we look at section two uh it on page three of this uh action sheet it says uh actions and steers from NH and then in
00:40:13 actions and steers from NH and then in the first bullet point in the last sentence it says Robert black said that £10,000 had been given to the housing team to help people buy Essentials um was was that the tmo's housing team or
00:40:24 was was that the tmo's housing team or was that rbc's the tmo's housing who at the TM had authorized that funding was that you I would have probably me and my finance director right and was that done in consultation with rbkc or by the TMO
00:40:35 in consultation with rbkc or by the TMO of its own valtion the TMO of its own valtion and why did the TMO provide funds to
00:40:41 funds to rbkc is that is that where it was being direct it was it was directed more locally so that staff on the ground of met residents who needed help could be given help right and and how was the
00:40:54 given help right and and how was the £10,000 given it was given cash in small amounts at different times of the day depending on what people were required right but this is 11:00 in the morning so by 11:00 10,000 in cash had been
00:41:06 so by 11:00 10,000 in cash had been extracted from the vaults of the TMO is that how it work vaults and the we'd had a special arrangement with our bank again based on other experiences in the
00:41:17 again based on other experiences in the de that if we were required to get large scales of money out they could do that with our bank so in sense what we recognize is because of the size of it people as I said at a d people leave the
00:41:30 people as I said at a d people leave the tower have nothing have requirements and one of the best things you can do is if you can help them by you know giving them some money to be able to achieve things they need at that moment so it
00:41:42 things they need at that moment so it seems very much is that as just trying to do a human a humanitarian position before because I think it was still forming then so it's just something we
00:41:53 forming then so it's just something we could do that would add value or help yes I mean why was it the TMO having to find this money rather than rbkc well I'm sure RB KC I think later
00:42:06 rbkc well I'm sure RB KC I think later on did money I think partly as I said before there are certain aspects we could maybe do quicker than they did and that was that's the the sort of position if we could help did did on this topic
00:42:18 if we could help did did on this topic did did the TMO have a budget a line item in its budget to fund activities under the it its own emergency plan I don't think so I think we just have our
00:42:31 don't think so I think we just have our budget with headings there wasn't a I don't think I can't recall to tell you through if there's a specific but I don't it right I was there a maximum amount budgeted for for emergencies
00:42:43 amount budgeted for for emergencies covered by the plan after which you would have to go to rbkc I no right um the second rbkc gold group meeting took place at 3:00 1500 hours on the same day
00:42:54 place at 3:00 1500 hours on the same day 14th June um if we gave please to uh rbk30 is
00:43:00 rbk30 is 23239 let's look at that this is the action sheet for that meeting again you're in recorded as being in attendance uh bottom of page one please third bullet point down broader Cordon
00:43:12 third bullet point down broader Cordon advice is to go to the rest centers and identify themselves to staff there go and stay with friends and family in the first instance but will house the older and vulnerable were you concerned about this approach to evacuated residents
00:43:27 uh I think it was advice that the council let me just I think the advice from the council was to use the rest centers they had but
00:43:38 was to use the rest centers they had but like a lot of times in rbkc people have lots of family and friends nearby and they they they go there rather than the rest center it's a quite tight community
00:43:49 rest center it's a quite tight community and people have have lots of people they know and probably that felt if you could do that that was better than being at arrest Center and whose suggestion was that I mean it says update from housing was that Laura Johnson it' be from Laura
00:44:01 was that Laura Johnson it' be from Laura Johnson and did you discuss this with Laura Johnson before this meeting or does this something she came out with she I mean I just attended a meeting and she came out with it right I see do do you know can you remember how that
00:44:12 you know can you remember how that advice was to be communicated to evacuated
00:44:16 evacuated residents no I mean I take it with this one of the things it would go back to ARB KC's coms team and they then work out how to tell people was there any uh discussion about what the criteria were
00:44:28 discussion about what the criteria were to be for who constituted vulnerable not at that meeting I can't recall right was there any discussion about obtaining accurate information on who was
00:44:39 accurate information on who was vulnerable not in that me as far as I can
00:44:42 can call um now let's go pausing there for the moment to um a meeting uh uh on the same day 14th of June at 6:30 p.m. of the tmo's board this is at
00:44:56 the tmo's board this is at tm11
00:44:58 tm11 7445 there's the first page page 1 6:30 p.m. uh and you can see who was in
00:45:08 attendance uh including you and Ivon Burch also Sasha jeans and Barbara Matthews Peter Madison Janice Ray there's a minute silence at the bottom of page one uh and then if you go please
00:45:22 of page one uh and then if you go please to page four let's pick it up at paragraph 7.4 on page four top of the screen it says the emergency support and temporary housing provision
00:45:33 support and temporary housing provision for affected residents was discussed it was noted that the council wished to take the lead here the council had told SJ at Sasha jeffin that hotel accommodation would be provided for all
00:45:44 accommodation would be provided for all affected
00:45:45 affected residents you'd been in attendance at the 3:00 meeting of rbk's Gold group as we've just seen where as we've just seen uh the the decision was to advise
00:45:58 uh the the decision was to advise um evacuees to go to rest centers uh or stay with friends and family and that only the older and the vulnerable would be
00:46:05 be housed was there any clarification of the position in that respect given to the board at this meeting uh I can't tell from just what's reported here apologize well no that
00:46:17 reported here apologize well no that that's the point um why didn't you clarify well do you accept that looking at this minute there's no clarification given to to the board that only the old
00:46:28 given to to the board that only the old and the vulnerable would be housed as opposed to all affected residents um I can't recall know thing I can remember why Mike suggest is that things had changed since then there
00:46:40 things had changed since then there might have been a further update right I it was a very changeable situation about what you might have at one meeting and what was then coming across because I think what what was happening is that
00:46:51 think what what was happening is that you know the the number of people uh you know in terms of the walkways was and people not wanting to go back to the homes was growing so I think it was an evolving time uh and things could change
00:47:05 evolving time uh and things could change quite quickly but but do you recall that there was a change between 3:00 p.m. and 6:30 p.m. whereby at the meeting at 3 p.m. it was only the old and vulnerable
00:47:17 p.m. it was only the old and vulnerable who were to be rehoused and everybody else to go to the rest centers or stay with friends and family but by 6:30 Hotel accommodation to be provided for all affected residents do you remember I can't read all that sorry right one of
00:47:30 can't read all that sorry right one of the things which we heard yesterday from Theresa Brown which changed was that the walkways were to be evacuated uh uh was that something that affected the approach
00:47:42 that affected the approach between 3:00 and 6:30 on the 14th I I think so because if you I mean I think the I'm trying to remember the numbers I think the walkways were
00:47:54 think the walkways were 8 40 there's a big memory number there uh and and that's a huge amount of people and and I think reality is trying to get them all to say with family and friends and I think RB Cas I think if I
00:48:07 friends and I think RB Cas I think if I can remember that you know their position changed in terms actually they would seek accommodation for as many people uh as they could and I think the whole issue is it in sense it started
00:48:18 whole issue is it in sense it started off with grul and then it was the the the walkways and then there was houses round about as as people uh sort of told people people who weren't feeling safe then right I mean
00:48:30 weren't feeling safe then right I mean the one possibility is that the minute isn't is not a faithful record of the discussion um another is uh that things have changed another is that there was
00:48:41 have changed another is that there was confusion uh and that what you were telling the what the the TMO board was being told was different from what was being
00:48:48 being proposed can you can you help us which was
00:48:53 it I think there was lots of confusion I don't in terms of the minute it's not a Verbatim record of the meeting in terms of of that uh but I think it also was a
00:49:06 of of that uh but I think it also was a change in
00:49:07 change in situation now you were asked about this in your in a rule n and in your fourth statement let's look at that page 10 paragraph 37 this is what you
00:49:19 paragraph 37 this is what you say sorry can I just before you yeah I just noted I wasn't at the board meeting at that time because in ter it says I just joined uh at
00:49:32 just joined uh at point8 because I was probably in other meetings so in terms of that that narrative that discussion at the time with the board I wasn't there for uh uh
00:49:44 with the board I wasn't there for uh uh right that that assumes that this note is linear in the sense that it's taken chronologically but your recollection is that you joined partway through well I follow the minutes because they're
00:49:55 follow the minutes because they're usually taken they're in that in that order right I see um let's go to paragraph 37 of your fourth statement page 10 you say uh my understanding was that the offer of Hotel accommodation
00:50:07 that the offer of Hotel accommodation would extend to all affected residents including those evacuated from neighboring properties so it looks as if your understanding was entirely consistent with the note of the meeting even though you weren't there at that part of the meeting yes yes um C can you
00:50:21 part of the meeting yes yes um C can you therefore explain why you had as it appears a different understanding to that which had been discussed and agreed at the RBC rbkc gold meeting at 3 p.m. was it again because there was confusion
00:50:32 was it again because there was confusion or was it because things had changed I think it it's as I say it may have been confusion but I think it also changed because I I think it was a it was a changeable situation that night when the
00:50:43 changeable situation that night when the numbers of people affected by the fire was happening by the hour
00:50:48 right let's then go back to the Gold group meeting uh at rbk 30 23239 page
00:51:00 two uh and uh if you look please at the top of page two third bullet point down it says uh 30 households have been
00:51:12 it says uh 30 households have been identified in the Clement James Center no numbers from other rest centers and then un immediately underneath that there's an update from robbert black have staff at every rest center need to
00:51:23 have staff at every rest center need to think about Presence at night and have a discussion on resources
00:51:31 uh now you say you had staff or it says that you had you told the meeting that there was staff at every rest center were you not in a position then to feed in information about the numbers of
00:51:42 in information about the numbers of people in the rest centers that your staff was seeing no well it's I would take it that had a meeting previously be going to this and this was the update that i' been told at that
00:51:53 that i' been told at that time right but why weren't you in a position to feed in information about the numbers coming to the rest centers that your your TMO staff was seeing that information was coming from my staff to
00:52:05 information was coming from my staff to rbkc so that they were at the back and that so they could understand that's why in terms of it came from the other people
00:52:12 people above but not coming to you no not directly because they were they were working on that that basis trying to support rbkc at that time but did you want not need to know
00:52:24 want not need to know uh who how many people and where they were from were turning up at the rest centers asking for assistance in order properly to brief the gold meetings that was the briefing on those
00:52:36 meetings that was the briefing on those issues were raised were given by Laura Johnson and housing because they had overall view of that I didn't have the overall
00:52:44 overall view but but why didn't you have an overall view you had it was your own staff at the yeah my staff were out on site at these times and in a sense they were doing those jobs so in terms of
00:52:57 were doing those jobs so in terms of when I came here again I must have met U Theresa and she told me that and that's all F back so it was just a general thing that I've been told trying to update people what we're doing I didn't
00:53:09 update people what we're doing I didn't have a lot of detail behind it right but but did she not keep you constantly updated I thought you told us that she did yeah we didn't always I didn't have all the detail of because she was dealing with that it was sort of more
00:53:22 dealing with that it was sort of more broader terms of what she was doing and how she was working would you not want to have a an overall grasp of the numbers and the growth in the numbers that were arriving at places like the
00:53:34 that were arriving at places like the West way so that you could make provision understand whether you needed more staff at the rest centers understand what Communications needed to be put in place so that the community
00:53:46 be put in place so that the community would understand better where to go so I would assume that that is coming to our bkc and then being shared at the gold which I set sit on cuz they had an overall picture not just of
00:53:57 overall picture not just of of what was going on in the burrow which I
00:54:00 I didn't but why were you not in the loop that loop I I I know it's very hard to recall that that I might have been in the loop there might have been other
00:54:11 the loop there might have been other things I was doing and trying to manage and I trusted uh in terms of actually what I was been given was actually been collected and shared with rbkc it's
00:54:22 collected and shared with rbkc it's quite hard for me to remember the specifics I apologize do do you remember a specific discussion about resources taking place at that meeting there was I'm not sure there
00:54:35 meeting there was I'm not sure there what I in terms of that note that for me the issue was actually understanding how to provide cover of these different shifts and that
00:54:46 cover of these different shifts and that was a discussion of resources which we probably had back at my company yeah if we go back to your fourth statement page six you look at par
00:55:01 24 uh you
00:55:07 uh you uh just above it you site from this meeting note and there's some questions that you're asked about it and you say in 24 This concerns Staffing resource the issue which the TMO encountered was
00:55:18 the issue which the TMO encountered was that in normal circumstances TMO staff were contracted to work from 900 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Monday to Friday Turn the Page P Monday to Friday however rest centers
00:55:29 P Monday to Friday however rest centers were to remain open 24/7 therefore my concern was to it was ensuring that we had sufficient resource to provide cover whilst allowing staff to recover and rest my recollection is that having
00:55:40 rest my recollection is that having discussed this internally it was decided that we would ask staff to work different shifts to ensure that the required cover could be provided which staff agreed to do this meant we were able to meet our objective to mam the
00:55:51 able to meet our objective to mam the rest
00:55:52 rest centers was there was there a discussion at this meeting about TMO Staffing levels so that the rest centers could be so there's discussion about Staffing
00:56:04 so there's discussion about Staffing levels from the timal so we could provide the support and that's where I mentioned earlier that what we were trying to do was free up staff in other parts of the organization to be able to work in those areas while still seeking
00:56:17 work in those areas while still seeking to provide a service to the other 9,000 people uh the different roles we were playing there now G given that you've said that the TMO had no formal role and that rbkc didn't request the
00:56:28 and that rbkc didn't request the assistance it was provided at least in part voluntarily and of course the fact that the TMO was not a responder for the purposes of the Civil contingencies Act was it your your view at the time that
00:56:40 was it your your view at the time that rbkc was leaning too heavily on the TMO to man the rest centers I think that's a hard to to comment uh in reflection it might be you
00:56:51 comment uh in reflection it might be you know when you step back and look uh I I think it the time we wanted to help we wanted to provide resources with people who we thought could help and maybe in
00:57:05 who we thought could help and maybe in reflection we should have I should have been clearer that we needed more resources beyond that uh that's a reflection at the time we were just trying to do all we could to uh
00:57:18 trying to do all we could to uh help did the TMO have sufficient staff resourced and trained to provide the support that rbkc expected or wanted at the rest centers I think so I mean we
00:57:29 the rest centers I think so I mean we had a lot of Staff in our heing team whose job is to work with our residents be the we also had leasehold team who work with leaseholders their job is to manage
00:57:40 manage tencies understand isues and housing so in terms of what you're asking them to do is actually be at the rest centers and actually try seek to provide support as
00:57:51 as directed you know on a difficult night so does it follow from that that you didn't raise any concerns with rbkc at these gold meetings about about your own Staffing levels because you thought it
00:58:03 Staffing levels because you thought it was adequate no what I I sort of mentioned it a couple of times uh and what we did then was take other action to address it uh it's quite difficult to
00:58:16 to address it uh it's quite difficult to raise issues about how difficult things are when everybody's in a difficult position and you're sitting around a meeting where people are dealing with incredibly uh challenging issues to sit
00:58:29 incredibly uh challenging issues to sit there and say I don't have enough resources I think we really sought to provide those resources but one way or another uh and again I think in reflection you know that might have been
00:58:40 reflection you know that might have been a better thing to do uh but it didn't it didn't not on the night did you ask rbkc for more resources I don't think
00:58:52 for more resources I don't think formally inally I don't uh it depends I'm so I'm trying to sometimes remember the five days and the days after uh I don't think I did
00:59:05 uh I don't think I did no and why was that because I think we took action ourselves so one of the issues is as you freed staff up we we
00:59:16 issues is as you freed staff up we we were like rbkc and IND with offers of help from uh other organizations housing organizations uh and one of the things of course if you recruit people it takes
00:59:28 of course if you recruit people it takes ages to do uh but lots of housing organizations were offering help and we were struggling to manage that with all the other stuff so I think you mentioned an email from uh Roka from Campbell teal
00:59:41 an email from uh Roka from Campbell teal yesterday so we worked historically with uh a number of Consultants uh for different reasons and Campbell te have a very good link with the market and what
00:59:52 very good link with the market and what they offered was to actually lays with with the the housing associations to see what they could offer and for us to give them lists of people or anything
01:00:03 them lists of people or anything required and then they would do that so in a sense if we were short of asset managers we we told that to to the team and then they spoke to their contacts about if anybody had an asset manager
01:00:16 about if anybody had an asset manager they could release or a house an officer so in a sense it was an offer from the sector of help and support uh which allowed us and also so again I think you read you read something out from uh a
01:00:30 read you read something out from uh a woman from bromy saying they didn't want the Teo bringing in anybody well it was what it was to do the people who come in were professional housing Professionals in their areas coming from well
01:00:42 in their areas coming from well established organizations and and that activity helped us free up uh our resources so that they could uh help with the the operation at Granville it
01:00:55 with the the operation at Granville it it was a way of actually doing it and again
01:00:59 again reflection as suppose as the go group changed I knew those people less and less and and they didn't really contact me so in terms you find yourself looking at what I needed to do to be able to
01:01:12 at what I needed to do to be able to again the two aspects of my job time support the operation at grandall but also try to ensure I was managing services to 9,000 other people who who
01:01:23 services to 9,000 other people who who were uh at that I'm quite demanding for us to speak to them let's then turn to the next go group meeting on the 15th of June 10: a.m. action sheet at rbk30 is
01:01:38 June 10: a.m. action sheet at rbk30 is 23234 you're in attendance as you can see uh and uh update from BK is the first item there update from BK on Westway sports centers that has a number
01:01:49 Westway sports centers that has a number of points in it 20 to 25 people stayed overnight people want to know whe when they can go home and then surprised by limited number of people coming through the doors the fourth bullet point down
01:02:00 the doors the fourth bullet point down were you aware by the time of this meeting 11: 10:00 a.m. on the 15th of June that potentially 845 residents from nearby properties were also
01:02:12 affected I
01:02:15 I I probably by this meeting I would know that there was lots of discussion around the walkways about what you could do and and was there a danger that you know people aren't going to move back did
01:02:27 people aren't going to move back did those present at the meeting from rbkc appear to your way of looking at it to appreciate the scale of those affected from the walkways I think they were
01:02:40 from the walkways I think they were understanding of what a job it would give them as long along with all the other things activities they were having to
01:02:48 to manage at these gold meetings given that only 20 to 25 people had used the Westway Center overnight on that first night were you and others at the meeting concerned that these numbers were very
01:03:01 concerned that these numbers were very low and asked the question well where are the rest well I think some people did ask that as far as I Rec call and and again I think it went back to people saying that they were either staying with friends or family or whatever I
01:03:13 with friends or family or whatever I mean but it was quite hard to get an understanding of the numbers and where people were so was there any discussion given these low numbers was there any discussion at the meeting that um people
01:03:25 discussion at the meeting that um people hadn't got the message to go to the West Westway Center he I can't Rec call from that part was there any discussion about having missing residents they'd gone off
01:03:37 having missing residents they'd gone off uh and couldn't be tracked down I can't recall from that meeting going back to the meeting um notes please if we can uh at at page six no um the board meeting
01:03:51 at at page six no um the board meeting so sorry we go to the back to the board meeting tm11 744 5 at page
01:04:00 six um if we go please to 10.1.5 this is at a time when you you say you were at the meeting that says that officers should meet the council at 1: p.m.
01:04:11 should meet the council at 1: p.m. tomorrow to discuss the coordination of efforts did that meeting take place this is I I imagine it did did you attend I can't recall that's do you remember any
01:04:22 can't recall that's do you remember any discussion about the coordination of efforts between TMO and rbkc I would need to understand if there's a minute at the meeting so I can see what it was about that's fair enough
01:04:34 see what it was about that's fair enough I don't think we've got one but um if we do I'll share it to you um let's go then to the second rbkc gold group meeting of the 15th of June at halfast 3 15:30 rbk30 is
01:04:50 23236 page one uh you can see that you are in attendance at this meeting uh and uh if you go lower down
01:05:02 meeting uh and uh if you go lower down the screen response priorities is the heading and underneath that people you see that uh and there are the following updates recorded among other things uh and if you go about halfway
01:05:15 things uh and if you go about halfway down the list of bullet points just below halfway down it says TMO managing list and have made contact with 81 households from grenfell Tower we do not know where some of the residents went to stay
01:05:27 now um we I asked you that question in relation to the 10:00 meeting but is it correct that by 1530 on that day 15th of June this question was now being
01:05:38 June this question was now being expressly asked yes yes and who had reported well um who was it who said at this meeting what is recorded at that bullet point it
01:05:51 what is recorded at that bullet point it either be myself or yon I don't know if yon was attend at that meeting uh but she was recorded as being in attendance yes if you look so it might have been one of the perers in terms of actually
01:06:04 one of the perers in terms of actually what we were told at probably pre meeting before we went to this and who had reported that to you who had raised the problem that you didn't know where some of the residents I think it would have been Theresa if she was at the meeting right do you recall any concerns
01:06:17 meeting right do you recall any concerns raised at this meeting by Obby KC that a number of residents were unaccounted
01:06:23 for uh I I can't recall I mean I'm sure there was a discussion around about it but it's not recorded here now Theresa Brown in her third
01:06:34 here now Theresa Brown in her third witness statement uh and she helped with this when she gave evidence yesterday said that she'd remembered sitting with a colleague at about 9:00 p.m. on the evening of the 14th of June ringing round uh residents and finding that
01:06:48 round uh residents and finding that she'd been unable to get hold of people on a repeated basis and the number of phones dropped a voicemail did did you know that she' had a ring round that
01:06:59 know that she' had a ring round that evening and had not succeeded in getting hold of everybody I think I was probably told that she' been ringing around residents and they've got a mixed response in terms of actually who they've been able to contact and who hadn't right did you raise uh with our
01:07:13 hadn't right did you raise uh with our bkc at this meeting the concerns that you had about not being able to to contact residents and identify their whereabouts I can't recall from that
01:07:24 whereabouts I can't recall from that sorry if we get back back to uh the
01:07:29 to uh the uh uh
01:07:31 uh uh um the action sheet at page one there uh a third bullet point down it says we'll run the rest center tonight but further decision will depend upon the Cordon you see that
01:07:44 will depend upon the Cordon you see that yeah was consideration given to closing the Westway Sports Center as a rest center if res residents were able to go home I I think I I can't recall for that that would have come from RB KC right I
01:07:57 that would have come from RB KC right I see and the next one says if the Cordon is not lifted then have over 800 people to find places will need to seek help from government do you remember that I do yeah you do and was that was that something of a
01:08:10 do and was that was that something of a a shock or surprise to you I I I think it was a it's another overwhelming things when you sit in these meetings and you're trying to work
01:08:22 these meetings and you're trying to work out how to deal with the people who are obviously gone at the groundfold and then you have the the walkways and I think that was the nature of this uh disaster because in the sense it it it
01:08:33 disaster because in the sense it it it challenged all the other housing round about it uh with the the the walkways a lot of it was because of the mechanical engineering which actually uh made it
01:08:45 engineering which actually uh made it difficult uh and I think it was yeah I think it was a a challenging thing
01:08:52 thing to to face if we go to page three three uh under Cordon [Music]
01:09:03 reduction uh you can see the heading there it says uh removal of Cordon was the critical factor in the decision to keep WSC open latest report is the three finger walks will be reoccupied tonight
01:09:15 finger walks will be reoccupied tonight but not Grenville Walk The Academy to stay in Cordon but not the Leisure Center trell is fencing to go up making the Cordon area hard leelo working with the police for phase reoccupation of the
01:09:27 the police for phase reoccupation of the area there's no reference here to tread house which was also evacuated um why was that I'm not sure here I mean tread go as far as I remember tread go was
01:09:39 go as far as I remember tread go was evacuated because of the fear at one stage that the building might fall and I think that was somewhere in the night that was evacuated uh I I don't think it was damaged as a whole but I have no
01:09:51 was damaged as a whole but I have no memory of that so I don't know why it's not mentioned or maybe and what provision was discussed for those needing accommodation from grenfell walk which was going to remain
01:10:02 grenfell walk which was going to remain evacuated I can't recall from this meeting not now Theresa Brown reported a number of concerns about the condition of the walkway properties
01:10:13 condition of the walkway properties which he told us about yesterday no hot water no gas for cooking um problems with damaged doors because of forced entry and problems with the door entry system and she says she raised that with
01:10:25 system and she says she raised that with with Stuart Priestley that's in her statement third statement did you know about those concerns yes you did did you feed those concerns into the rbkc Gold group I think I did I think you you
01:10:36 group I think I did I think you you showed Theresa uh an email that I did to Nicholas hul get yesterday yes but at the meetings at the Gold meetings I can't remember right I mean there was a
01:10:47 can't remember right I mean there was a lot of
01:10:48 lot of discussion between all the different groups about the walkways and we were aware that in in terms of if you're going to reopen them you have to actually make sure we've we've checked
01:11:00 actually make sure we've we've checked them out cleaned them up that people are happy to move back in as three as I said yesterday some people seem to have got through the cord and and were're already there uh I think there's a great will
01:11:11 there uh I think there's a great will for people to go back people wanted to go back but you know we wanted to make sure again that uh they were fit to live in was there a discussion about the
01:11:22 in was there a discussion about the Alternatives given the numbers that people were coming back into houses where there were homes where there was no hot water no cooking facilities
01:11:33 no hot water no cooking facilities security problems on the one hand or rehousing them on emergency basis on the other I I I didn't hear that conversation uh I there was bits and
01:11:45 conversation uh I there was bits and pieces but it almost again when you were sitting this meeting that they you know the back in the go group wanted these open and people to be
01:11:56 open and people to be rehoused really what I'm driving at is was did the TMO find itself having to uh permit people back into their own homes despite the condition that they were in because rbkc wouldn't or couldn't
01:12:09 because rbkc wouldn't or couldn't rehouse them on an emergency basis because of the numbers so I think yes but actually so yes but we put in place a a range of services to address the
01:12:22 a a range of services to address the concerns be that the cleaning of the block so sub substantial cleaning to make it uh clean uh assessment of each flat in terms of gas electricity uh and
01:12:35 flat in terms of gas electricity uh and that uh doors that had had to be fixed if they' been broken in so we had a repairs company and other contractors on standby to do that it it's a big job and
01:12:48 standby to do that it it's a big job and we work closely with people to to try to make a success but it didn't mean as you said that there was no uh hot water uh because that required a boiler uh to be
01:12:59 because that required a boiler uh to be put in place to to reconnect that uh we had electricity so people could have as mentioned yesterday could have the the sort of cooking pant so they could do there and the and the and the the West
01:13:11 there and the and the and the the West way for cleaning up if require was any dis any consideration given to your knowledge was there any discussion about giving the residents of the walkways a choice about whether to go back to their
01:13:23 choice about whether to go back to their own homes which had no hot water or cooking facilities on the one hand or to go to an emergency accommodation a hotel perhaps on the other I'm not sure about that I I think
01:13:36 other I'm not sure about that I I think the the pressure was to get people to move back because that was a huge uh number of people that if we could get people back into those homes that would take the pressure off other aspects it
01:13:47 take the pressure off other aspects it did then create problems for us to make sure those uh homes were habitable and safe well indeed and and was that that's why asked the question was there any thought given to sharing the pain between you and
01:13:59 between you and rbkc by essentially giving the residents of the walkway a choice an individual choice either to move back in to a home which had no hot water and no cooking facilities or to be found emergency
01:14:10 facilities or to be found emergency accommodation in the short term I wasn't involved in a conversation like that by the end of the second gold group meeting on the 15th of June uh at 3 3 3:30 as
01:14:22 on the 15th of June uh at 3 3 3:30 as we've seen um what were your observations on rbc's capacity to cope with the emergency relief response I thought they were reaching their capacity because uh cly if you
01:14:36 their capacity because uh cly if you look at having another 850 people who might have to rehouse I I think also there was other things happening so we're looking at housing but there was other things happening outside that you know the generosity of
01:14:48 outside that you know the generosity of people donating stuff uh created a considerable problem for the council until they got someone else they manage it I mean they were being overwhelmed with with gifts or clothes or boxes and
01:15:01 with with gifts or clothes or boxes and that that became an issue because it's actually how do you treat it with respect how do you you use it how do you manage it and and I think that's one of the things you learn in terms of that's the maybe they should have got Marks and
01:15:12 the maybe they should have got Marks and Spencers of someone else to manage it quicker uh because I think it was it was affecting it was also just people were very wary that they didn't want to disrespect things if people had gifted
01:15:25 disrespect things if people had gifted so I think they were they were getting near capacity uh in terms of what they were doing and certainly in Communications right and to your knowledge was any contact being
01:15:36 your knowledge was any contact being made with central government to provide assistance in relation to the problems with hous I wouldn't know that I'm Mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes I think it is Mr thank you well as you
01:15:47 I think it is Mr thank you well as you know Mr Black we have a break during the morning we'll take it now we'll resume please at halfast 11: and uh as everyone else and you will remember please don't talk to anyone about your
01:15:58 please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it while you're out of the room okay thank you very thank you very
01:16:10 much thank you very much half 11
01:16:23 please
01:16:53 e
01:17:23 e
01:17:53 e
01:18:23 e
01:18:53 e
01:19:23 e
01:19:53 e
01:20:23 e
01:20:53 e
01:21:23 e
01:21:53 e
01:22:23 e
01:22:53 e
01:23:23 e
01:23:53 e
01:24:23 e
01:24:53 e
01:25:23 e
01:25:53 e
01:26:23 e
01:26:53 e
01:27:23 e
01:27:53 e
01:28:23 e
01:28:53 e
01:29:23 e
01:29:53 e
01:30:22 e
01:30:52 e e
01:31:39 would you ask S to Black to come black in please
01:31:52 okay right Mr Black thank you thank you yes Mr M thank you Mr chairman Mr Black 16th of June 2017 can I please take you to
01:32:02 to rbk30
01:32:09 23238 this is the Gold group meeting on that day 16th June the Friday 10: a.m. there's the action sheet you can see who was present you were present as was John baradel from
01:32:22 baradel from llac do you remember him being there yes you do and if we go to page two of the action sheet there are a number of updates there under the heading looking after those immediately affected do you see that yes and it includes in the
01:32:35 see that yes and it includes in the second bullet point down lack of clarity from the police regarding reoccupation staff are telling families from the finger blocks that they can stay in commercial accommodation until there is a clear message from the
01:32:47 a clear message from the police and then it goes on uh underneath that um tread gold house this is two this is three bullet points down tread gold house is still evacuated police are turning people
01:32:59 turning people away now that suggests I think doesn't it that there was some confusion at the time about reoccupation of the walkway properties is that right I I would say that seems I think it seems there's also
01:33:11 that seems I think it seems there's also confusion with the police and the link between the Gold group and Beck uh and I think I get some understanding that it's when police teams change and new
01:33:22 when police teams change and new Commandos come in that you might have different different views and and I think that was one of the the frustrations and ter actually the police saying different things so I think that's a clear communication thing right
01:33:34 that's a clear communication thing right does that account from your perspective uh for the difference between this minute and the minute from the gold meeting in the afternoon of the 15th of June the day before that we've just seen
01:33:45 June the day before that we've just seen that the three walkway blocks would be reoccupied that night yeah yes can we look at um tm1 337 55 this is an email thread between
01:33:57 55 this is an email thread between various TMO staff internally uh and um if you go please to the foot of page one you can see this one from Mandy Warrior to Nicola Wilkinson at 1158 on
01:34:08 Warrior to Nicola Wilkinson at 1158 on the 16th of June 2017 this is just after the Gold group meeting of that morning hi Nicola it says uh the TMO are on our way to door knock the estate as the
01:34:19 way to door knock the estate as the residents have been told they can now return after being evacuated following fire at grenfell Tower as you know the blocks on the above estate do not have gas due to the central boiler at
01:34:30 gas due to the central boiler at grenfell Tower for the estate being damaged as you are aware we are looking to install a temp boiler but we do not have a time scale yet is it right to say that as far as the TMO was concerned
01:34:41 that as far as the TMO was concerned evacuated residents were able to and were returning on the 16th of June to their homes other than perhaps Grandfield walk yes yeah did you understand yourself that the decision
01:34:53 understand yourself that the decision that have uated residents could return home was a decision made by the police or by rbkc or jointly between the two I imagine it be jointly between the two do you
01:35:04 you know I I imagine that the goal group was making those sort of decisions alongside back so it would just be my impression and you attribute us I
01:35:16 my impression and you attribute us I think you told us your the confusion as appears from the minutes um to one of police shifts changing and not being properly updated by the B yeah I think that was sometime I can't say that it's
01:35:27 that was sometime I can't say that it's all the time but was that speculation on your part or is that something no I think that was some of the in terms of we had meetings that Theresa or some of her team fed that back to
01:35:38 us now if we go back to the action
01:35:43 sheet please rbk30 23238 page uh two um just below the reference to tread gold you see it says 15 people stayed at the
01:35:55 you see it says 15 people stayed at the rest center last night so that's even fewer than the 25 we saw on the first night the night of the um 14th 15th and this is now 15th 16th um it says LJ
01:36:08 this is now 15th 16th um it says LJ confirmed she had sufficient hotels to accommodate up to 20 families she will house families that are vulnerable or those with children that have no hot water but others will have to
01:36:19 water but others will have to manage um now do you accept looking at that message at least that by the morning of the 16th of June there were still evacuated residents families with children vulnerable people older people
01:36:31 children vulnerable people older people that had still not been provided with emergency
01:36:35 emergency accommodation it would appear so yeah yes and is that because the TMO had not been able to identify all of those residents who met that Criterion uh or hadn't signposted them
01:36:47 Criterion uh or hadn't signposted them to
01:36:49 to rbkc I
01:36:51 rbkc I I I can't I can't recall did you challenge the approach that only certain people would be accommodated and and that as this note says others will have to manage no why
01:37:04 says others will have to manage no why not because I was I was listening to the go group talking about how they were managing a situation uh in the sense I'm sitting on the sidelines uh and they're
01:37:15 sitting on the sidelines uh and they're having to make those decisions in terms of actually resources they have but but you're not sitting on the sidelines in practice are you because you are the TMO is the body that would actually have to
01:37:26 is the body that would actually have to tell people that they would have to manage and cope with how they would manage yeah and I think that was when they made those decisions that's how we explained it to people
01:37:37 explained it to people right but I mean is it right I mean did you get the sense at the time that when Laura Johnson took the view that others would have to manage she was basically putting the problem on your shoulders I accept some of that
01:37:50 shoulders I accept some of that yes then if you go to page four in this
01:37:55 in this document under resources for the next 3 days and 14 days you see the heading there um it says uh in the last bullet point all asked to identify what resources they need in the next 48 hours
01:38:08 resources they need in the next 48 hours did you identify what resources the TMO needed for the next 48 hours I I can't recall specifically we would have been working on uh uh sort of uh Staffing for
01:38:19 working on uh uh sort of uh Staffing for the the weekend in terms of shifts for that
01:38:24 that uh yes uh and on that point uh let's go then to well but before I do did you have any worries at that stage about whether the TMO had the capacity to
01:38:36 whether the TMO had the capacity to fulfill its role at that point I think we were addressing uh shortages as best as we could let's go to rbk30 10176
01:38:55 uh the second email down on the page this is an email from Barbara brownley at Westminster city council internally on the 16th of June at 11:51 so this is
01:39:06 on the 16th of June at 11:51 so this is um sometime later that morning uh there are currently unofficial calls for assistance coming from knc's TMO for help they've used WhatsApp to send out a message to some London counil saying
01:39:17 message to some London counil saying that their staff are exhausted and they need resources on for the weekend is that so did you I I'm not sure about the WhatsApp messages to loal Authority I'm clear about working with Campo teal to Res
01:39:31 about working with Campo teal to Res seek resources in another way right you say you're not sure about the WhatsApp messages to to your knowledge were your staff sending out messages whether by WhatsApp or otherwise to
01:39:42 whether by WhatsApp or otherwise to other London councils saying that their staff are exhausted and they need resources for the weekend I can't recall that no why is that can we work on the basis that given the high level
01:39:54 basis that given the high level coordination role this is something you would have known if that system was working properly yeah I mean I would thought I would have known because and it's but I can't recall who it doesn't
01:40:05 it's but I can't recall who it doesn't tell me who was doing it you know which member of Staff or or what I'm clear about is what I was doing on the other aspect to actually access uh support for
01:40:16 aspect to actually access uh support for our services was it a fact that your staff were exhausted and need resources on for the weekend I think everybody was exhausted and people were working as hard as they could just tell me this Mr Black
01:40:29 could just tell me this Mr Black um a cold for assistance whether unofficial or or whe or made by WhatsApp or whatever wouldn't just be made by people on their own initiative they'd be made by senior members of Staff wouldn't
01:40:41 made by senior members of Staff wouldn't they well that's what I've thought but I I can't
01:40:43 I can't recall I don't remember I don't remember doing it I have no record of me doing it uh so therefore you know bab brownley I don't know what she got where she got it from
01:40:54 from and you're not aware of any other members of your senior staff taking that course well not off the top of the head I've been able to say right thank
01:41:06 you and it goes on I now I also now have emails from housing consultancies saying the same thing this is a disorganized and very unofficial way to raise help after we have been offering it since the very beginning were you aware that
01:41:18 very beginning were you aware that Westminster Council for its own part had been offering support to your staff in the TMO no from the very beginning not not not aware not aware and then she says I'm concerned
01:41:29 aware and then she says I'm concerned that too many inexperienced staff will descend upon the rest bite centers without any planning and simply make the situation worse um from what you could observe at the time was that a legitimate concern no I think it was the
01:41:41 legitimate concern no I think it was the other way that we were working to use the the resources of other organizations to backfill our staff so that they could actually uh work at the rest M centers
01:41:52 actually uh work at the rest M centers with that local knowledge I mean for the record I Barbara Brinley never contacted me about this any time uh and I'm
01:42:04 this any time uh and I'm quite surprised to see this right well let's just look at the top of the email run because we can see what happens to it um
01:42:14 it um uh the next email up you can just see it there there it is that's better comes from Mick Smith at Westminster city council through to the backck you see at 12:26 FAO Stuart
01:42:29 backck you see at 12:26 FAO Stuart Priestley following my call to him C below that has come from our director of housing that requires passing on to your housing director for Action uh and then that goes from the
01:42:40 Action uh and then that goes from the Beck to Laura Johnson copy to Stuart Priestly a few minutes later you see that yeah so it definitely goes to Laura did Laura Johnson share this message with you I don't recall seeing
01:42:53 with you I don't recall seeing or been told about it right did she share the gist of the communication with you I don't recall that no let's go to rbk
01:43:04 no let's go to rbk 41923 and you referred in your evidence earlier this morning to Reda MH if we go to page two the bottom of the thread um you can see an email from Roka mil
01:43:16 you can see an email from Roka mil milovich at Campbell tickle and she says we've had a call from the TMO this morning and sorry I should show you the date it's 9 18 of June at
01:43:27 10:45 so that's the Monday morning we've had a call from the TMO this morning regarding quite a considerable input of Staff resources that they are requesting some people have not turned up for work today whilst we've been looking at how
01:43:38 today whilst we've been looking at how we might backfill the foremost senior posts at least temporally it doesn't seem appropriate to be trying to fill all the other resource gaps appearing and we assume that in any case this is best done through the command center
01:43:50 best done through the command center doubtless there'll be some thinking going on about how these services are managed in any case in the long run but please could you advise on how best we help the TMO plug into the support Arrangements being put in place for now
01:44:01 Arrangements being put in place for now and whether indeed they should and then there's a link and then it says the resource request being reported to us this morning is five housing officers two team leaders in housing One customer call center team leader and two
01:44:14 call center team leader and two handlers uh and then there's a last paragraph that you can see there were you the person who made the request for staff resources through Campbell tickle we were working with Campbell TOA who were asking us what resources we
01:44:27 were asking us what resources we required and because as I said earlier they were getting offers of help from other housing organizations and in a sense we were're providing with lists of Staff in terms of you see here seing if they could help
01:44:40 of you see here seing if they could help us yes but were you the person who made the request were you the person who made the call to the TMO from the TMO to R kovich I can't recall whether it was me or one it might have been Sasha but did you authorize it I would have authorized
01:44:52 you authorize it I would have authorized it yes you knew it was going on yeah right um why did you make the request or why did you cause this request to be made through Campbell tickle rather than raising it at an rbkc Gold group meeting and asking gold for
01:45:05 and asking gold for resources uh I
01:45:09 think I don't right I don't know I got the sense that there weren't resources available for us uh and therefore actually we were left to actually fill
01:45:21 actually we were left to actually fill our own
01:45:23 our own by this stage this is Monday the previous Friday afternoon of the 16th of
01:45:31 16th of June London local Authority gold had taken over yeah why were you still pursuing taking on more housing staff through Campbell tickle as opposed simply to pursuing that through London
01:45:44 simply to pursuing that through London Gold maybe I don't realize they were Supply supplyed the resources did you not think to ask at least I think that time probably not going back to the E uh email thread
01:45:58 not going back to the E uh email thread uh can we then look um further up the chain please uh page one and you can see uh that the email is
01:46:09 one and you can see uh that the email is forwarded by Barbara brownley at the bottom of your screen on the 19th to Amanda Johnson at rbkc housing hi both just to put on your radar that the TMO are requesting resources from specific
01:46:21 are requesting resources from specific places but we need to coordinate this London wide please will you investigate when you are over there and then that message um is replied to um by Amanda
01:46:32 replied to um by Amanda Johnson uh the next day 24 hours later uh and it says Barbara this morning's meeting you explained that resources would not be made available to support the TMO in
01:46:43 made available to support the TMO in terms of housing management staff the TMO is now struggling to mobilize staff to support people back into their homes I am clarifying the number of staff that have not attended work today staff are
01:46:54 have not attended work today staff are extremely frightened and the lack of Staff will significantly undermine our ability to get people back into their homes accelerating already heightened tensions the London wide response has been extremely helpful in supporting
01:47:05 been extremely helpful in supporting rbkc and I'm struggling to see why this cannot be extended to the TMO as there is a direct impact on our tenants and staff
01:47:12 staff safety uh were you aware just at this point that London the London Gold Response Team London wide was not going to make resources at that point available to support the
01:47:24 available to support the TMO no I just we just got on with doing the job we thought the best could do had you had any discussions with rbkc about rbkc approaching London Gold
01:47:36 rbkc about rbkc approaching London Gold and and seeing if London Gold would be able to help you with your staff problem I can't recall to be
01:47:45 honest were you involved with any discussions with London Golds Response Team directly about your problem with Staffing
01:47:54 Staffing no can you explain why given the problems that you were having you you you you either didn't seek the assistance of London wide gold the or as is said here the London wide
01:48:05 is said here the London wide response uh or or raised with rbkc whether or not London Gold could could come in and
01:48:12 help I just had an impression that they wouldn't help us why why did you have that impression I think London goes a bit like a juggernaut once it comes in it goes over they understand local
01:48:24 it goes over they understand local authorities and maybe didn't understand my organization and how we're structured and operated differently and in the sense as it evolved maybe not
01:48:36 evolved maybe not appreciated but again that's you know in and when you look back I think that's a fair point for you to raise with me looking at it slightly differently did
01:48:47 looking at it slightly differently did you have any working knowledge I think it's the best one could expect of of the L the pan London resilience arrangements and London Gold's
01:48:58 and London Gold's powers and capabilities in particular not really why is that is that because you weren't a category one responder I think so yes right did you ever have any
01:49:09 think so yes right did you ever have any discussions with rbkc about the what you needed to know in that respect not as a far as I can recall let's move then uh now I think back a day to the 19th of
01:49:21 now I think back a day to the 19th of June 2017
01:49:25 which is the Monday uh there was an rbkc Gold group meeting on that day at noon action sheet at rbk
01:49:35 45507 page one shows that you attended it's in a slightly different format this is now um in a grid format you you attended with councelor Nicholas padet
01:49:46 attended with councelor Nicholas padet Brown the leader if we go to page two in the left hand column there's a a subject housing uh and the first bullet point there rbkc housing staff are fatigued
01:49:59 there rbkc housing staff are fatigued they are the only ones who know the bur and have local knowledge you see that MH and then um a four bullet points up from the bottom it says people in finger blocks constantly approaching for
01:50:10 blocks constantly approaching for housing need a steer from the WCC team what do we do with the 91 families not from greni Tower and walk and then if you turn to page three under the TMO in
01:50:23 you turn to page three under the TMO in the leftand column's third bullet point down it says uh need instructions sent from Barbara brownley about no longer placing residents from the finger blocks staff are nervous and some have not come in
01:50:34 in today now is it right to say because here we are on the 19th of June uh halfway through that day that even then there was confusion and an unclear
01:50:45 there was confusion and an unclear strategy about arrangements for evacuated residents yes yes why why as late as this this I think they were just finding it incredibly difficult and it
01:50:57 finding it incredibly difficult and it wasn't as simple as it seemed I mean it's 850 people trying to meet their different needs and why was a steer needed from the WCC team the Westminster city council team what could they add well I think they were the ones that
01:51:09 well I think they were the ones that were brought in London Gold to oversee the support and it sounds like we needed them to give the steer right was Barbara brownley were you in touch with Barbara brownley no I don't think she was at
01:51:20 brownley no I don't think she was at this meeting I don't know if she attended any gold meeting no but given that she was head of housing at Westminster city council
01:51:29 council um am I right that Westminster city council didn't have a TMO in the way that rbkc did they had an Almo management organization did you have discussions with the head of
01:51:40 discussions with the head of Elmo
01:51:42 Elmo no no so was your do did you yourself or your organization TMO have any dealings at all with Westminster city council or was that all left to Laura Johnson and her team most was left to Laura Johnson
01:51:54 her team most was left to Laura Johnson where we engage with them is when they were brought in to review certain aspects around the boiler Etc so my team was engaging with them now if we go to your fourth
01:52:05 them now if we go to your fourth statement please page eight paragraph 4 paragraph uh
01:52:12 30 uh you say there I'm able to recall precisely what was meant by this and you're referring there to the bullet point I just put to you about instructions sent from Barbara branley I
01:52:24 instructions sent from Barbara branley I know that there were a number of residents from the finger blocks in the rest centers that needed to be rehoused I think we wanted to know what to do with the finger blocks as they were without services for a period of time and Theresa and her team needed
01:52:35 and Theresa and her team needed instructions on how to proceed
01:52:42 uh instructions from barara brownley was that because she was basically London Gold housing and therefore in charge yes I follow were you ever told either on or
01:52:53 I follow were you ever told either on or or around the 19th of June by John baradel um who was leading the gold response and had been since the Friday afternoon the 16th that a decision had been made at a central government level
01:53:05 been made at a central government level that evacuated residents were entitled to a hotel accommodation and financial assistance I no I can't recall that it's something you would recall though had that been communicated to you presumably
01:53:18 that been communicated to you presumably uh I I can't recall if there's a minute in the gold meeting where it said uh I don't think I had a one toone meeting with him during the whole process right I me put it this way if central
01:53:29 I me put it this way if central government had come in and told you that all evacuated residents were entitled to Hotel accommodation and financial assistance um would I be right in thinking that that is something that you would recall because it would have solved all your problems yeah I mean I I
01:53:42 solved all your problems yeah I mean I I I I think government comes in and says those things and then I think there's a big certainly with Laura mentioned just about how you were to achieve it within that time
01:53:53 that time very much a look authority to go to government discussions which I wasn't involved in looking at it in the round how would you characterize uh the clarity of
01:54:04 characterize uh the clarity of instruction guidance Direction coming from rbkc and then after the Friday London Gold about what was to be done about evacuated residents over the course of the first week of the fire or
01:54:17 course of the first week of the fire or following the 16th of June at least I mean I think it got a bit clearer in terms of the but it was still confusion sometime in terms of actually the whole situation to what
01:54:28 actually the whole situation to what would you attribute the
01:54:32 confusion a chaotic and difficult situation that even though you had this the structure it was still difficult to get clear instructions all the way down the line I think that's something they
01:54:45 the line I think that's something they would learn from and in your perception was that because people didn't understand how to work the structure or because there was some defect in the
01:54:57 there was some defect in the structure I think it's probably about I mean I think probably the structure works in paper it's about whether when you have something this size you actually need more from central government know is that is there enough
01:55:08 government know is that is there enough resources put in at that level in a helpful way rather than just instructions of what you you're to achieve
01:55:18 achieve I then moving to the 20th of June the Tuesday there was an rbkc Gold group meeting on that day you attended action sheet at 1 TMO 1
01:55:32 sheet at 1 TMO 1 [Music]
01:55:34 [Music] 33447 there it is you're in attendance uh with Barry Quirk from lewisham uh page three please TMO section on the left hand side top of
01:55:46 section on the left hand side top of page um you can see uh that in the first bullet point it says residents coming back from the homes in the finger blocks to the
01:55:55 to the WSC because of mixed messages concern being raised by councelor Judith blakeman JB and police who seem to be saying return at your own risk which is not helpful JB asking for a copy of the
01:56:06 not helpful JB asking for a copy of the risk assessments which agreed this so is it right looking at this it appears to be that that that even at 20th of June so six days after the fire there was
01:56:17 so six days after the fire there was still no clear communication or strategy in respect of evacuated residents May the appear of that yeah and if you go to your third statement please page
01:56:31 two paragraph 8 you say it was made very plain to me at Gold group that all internal and external Communications including Communications with evacuees
01:56:43 including Communications with evacuees and residents were required to be controlled and managed by OB casc through the Gold group in line with its emergency planning procedures TMA was specifically prohibited ited from communicating with
01:56:54 prohibited ited from communicating with residents and any other parties unless authorized by rbkc and you expand on that in your fourth statements if we go to that please page
01:57:09 five paragraph 18 and you say there the need to manage Communications to ensure there were clear and consistent messages being given was discussed at the Gold group meetings on several occasions for
01:57:21 group meetings on several occasions for instance I've been shown the action sheet for the Gold group meeting on 26th June
01:57:26 June 2017 uh enclosed a document and then you exhibit it where the importance of a centralized message was discussed it being agreed that all Communications were to be referred to Patrick
01:57:38 were to be referred to Patrick Carr now in the light of that I'm sorry paragraph 20 a little bit lower down bottom of your screen you say I believe that the decision to manage all Communications through Gold group was taken in order to ensure all
01:57:50 taken in order to ensure all Communications were accurate and consistent so as to avoid confusion in the light of um that apparent commitment to clear communication were you not
01:58:01 to clear communication were you not concerned that that the inconsistent and confusing Communications relating to evacuated residents particularly from the finger blocks had persisted throughout the week and still persisted
01:58:12 throughout the week and still persisted as at the 20th of June the Tuesday yes yes did you raise that as a concern at Gold group meetings I can't recall I I know we did really concerns around
01:58:23 know we did really concerns around Communications generally because in a sense they were very slow in agreeing sort of an overall position so you could send information out to Residents I think that was a reflection that
01:58:35 think that was a reflection that initially there was a very few comms people in rbkc and I think the new person that came in from London Gold brought in some other people to to move it
01:58:46 it along if we get back to the action sheet please
01:58:52 where we were which was on page three it all it it goes on uh as I shown you in the last sentence of the first bullet point that
01:59:04 sentence of the first bullet point that Judith blakean had asked for a copy of the risk
01:59:06 the risk assessment um now you you cover this in your fourth statement uh where you say that you had been told by Theresa Brown that you she thought that risk
01:59:17 that you she thought that risk assessments had been produced by the Gold group who were responsible for deciding that residents could return that's what she that's what you say in paragraph 33 of your fourth statement given that it was you who was attending Gold group meetings and not Theresa
01:59:29 Gold group meetings and not Theresa Brown were any such risk assessments produced by the Gold group before evacuees were told to return I can't recall that now did you see any I didn't see any no why did you not ask to see a
01:59:42 see any no why did you not ask to see a risk assessment or or to have one done I thought that was if the Gold group and Beck are making these decisions they should be doing that we weren't
01:59:53 weren't in the sense it felt outside my
01:59:57 control given that it was a point being raised by the councelors did you press and and given that you were resident facing did you in turn press uh rbc's
02:00:12 facing did you in turn press uh rbc's management uh to to carry out a risk assessment so that you could reassure residents that there was no risk or negligible risk or a manageable risk of them returning to their home in light of
02:00:23 them returning to their home in light of the police saying return at your own
02:00:28 risk I can't recall that right I I think in the the sense we're having trouble with the police saying different things at different times M black I get the impression from
02:00:40 times M black I get the impression from the last few answers that you understood that all your powers and responsibilities at least in relation to the residents of the war and and the
02:00:52 the residents of the war and and the Tyrant on had been as it were taken over by either by the council Gold group or by the pan London Gold group and had been taken out of your hand is that how
02:01:03 been taken out of your hand is that how you saw it yes so I I how I saw it wasn't it was the whole of Lancaster West estate which is about thousand homes really that we had no influence from the night of the disaster and that
02:01:15 from the night of the disaster and that whole area was managed by the gold by RB casc then the Gold group then the London group and they operated the way they thought to manage it within that our role was sidelined in terms of support
02:01:27 role was sidelined in terms of support and where we could help out in terms of Maintenance so those decisions were in a sense we saw that we had no role no control no influence in it and no
02:01:38 control no influence in it and no responsibility either well in a sense if they were taking all the decisions uh I I felt how could we have responsibility with no role apart from where we're being asked to do things and trying to do that as
02:01:50 to do things and trying to do that as best as possible and and are you able to say what led you to that conclusion I think from day one in terms of the theas site and The Cordon is that
02:02:03 of the theas site and The Cordon is that we were it you know as it evolved over the next few days that basically they they our rle was uh what I'm trying to think of a word sorry subordinate to anything that
02:02:14 word sorry subordinate to anything that was going on there uh in since we you know as a company we we lost that because of the disaster right there was also some aspects of you
02:02:25 right there was also some aspects of you know safety in terms of perception and there was some you know risks and threats running about so I think there's also you know a key thing of the rbkc
02:02:36 also you know a key thing of the rbkc then go group trying to manage that as a collective as well yeah all right thank you very much did was there any any discussion uh once Gold group had taken
02:02:49 discussion uh once Gold group had taken over from the Friday afternoon 60s of embedding a number of senior TMO staff within it so that they could assist internally within Gold group with any particular issues about residents on the
02:03:02 particular issues about residents on the Lancaster West estate uh no I don't think so so what was
02:03:09 was envisaged um by way of familiarity with the community when it came to London London Lo London Gold I I think London Gold felt that they needed to bring
02:03:20 Gold felt that they needed to bring fresh people in and I think if you follow these things through they were talking about pointing the leader and bringing other staff and and that was the impression that you know they were just taking it over and and that was the
02:03:31 just taking it over and and that was the end of the matter but that would have meant Reinventing the wheel wouldn't it because your staff had an intimate knowledge of the laners of West estate whereas gold didn't is that fair I think that's fair I think probably within
02:03:43 that's fair I think probably within their situation they might have felt we're more a hindrance than a positive and that's why they would want new faces uh
02:03:52 faces uh let's turn then to a different subject which is the tmo's internal Communications can we go to your fourth statement please page five paragraph 21 and you say
02:04:04 five paragraph 21 and you say there uh foot of the screen following the Gold group meetings internal separate internal meetings would be called with the TMO senior management team and executive team to enable me to report back on any issues or actions
02:04:16 report back on any issues or actions identified we would then discuss how these could be dealt with and the actions would be assigned to to a TMO staff member to manage the completion now these meetings were is this right were with the senior management team and
02:04:28 were with the senior management team and executive team yes yes and those were teams which Theresa Brown and her team were not part of they were part of that mean I mean Theresa was on the senior management team but her team wasn't but they could
02:04:40 team but her team wasn't but they could in a sense what we're trying to do if Teresa felt that she needed more of her staff there to explain our situation that was POS it was a fluid situation between the the the the senior managers
02:04:53 between the the the the senior managers right now in respect of the meetings with the senior leadership team and executive team um you say in paragraph 20 uh one if we just go back to that top of the screen um after every meeting
02:05:06 of the screen um after every meeting Jill petford my PA then compiled notes and you and you um provide an example of that um and at paragraph 23 you say this I maintained oversight that the actions the assigned actions were delivered
02:05:18 the assigned actions were delivered through the same process updates on completed and outstanding were provided by attendees at each meeting so that we were able to monitor their progress the actions were then recorded on a spreadsheet together with an overview of
02:05:29 spreadsheet together with an overview of the current position and that this then formed the basis of my updates to the Gold group for example see the minutes of the TM meeting on the 22nd of June 2017 which was subsequently updated to
02:05:40 2017 which was subsequently updated to reflect the current position of each action now I think you've only exhibited one set of notes and that was from a meeting as you say on the 22nd of June we've been unable to identify any others
02:05:52 we've been unable to identify any others was that the first time such a meeting took place in that way with a a record being kept of the meeting and what date is this again sorry 22nd of June no I think we would have had more before that
02:06:03 think we would have had more before that because we had we had as I said concert meetings after the go group and meetings together and they were collected by jel who was my PA right and was Theresa
02:06:15 who was my PA right and was Theresa Brown present at each of these meetings I imagine so if she was available right and were you confident that you had a clear view a clear understanding of the activities of your staff
02:06:26 of the activities of your staff delivering the front lines response in the first
02:06:30 the first week I felt I had as good a view as I could do I mean looking back on it was there anything that you didn't know but your your teams on the ground did which
02:06:41 your your teams on the ground did which you should have known well I think I I should have probably know have a better understanding of how they were collecting information and how they were sharing that with the count so uh that
02:06:53 sharing that with the count so uh that was done very much at a local level I think I tried through that process to be on top of things but there were also so many other things going on at the same
02:07:05 many other things going on at the same time it was quite challenging now I want to ask you some questions next about the observations of of others about the tmo's performance in
02:07:16 of others about the tmo's performance in the first week after the fire and I'm going to start with the beis um if we go please to Bei
02:07:27 42849 we see a witness
02:07:31 statement can you confirm what B SII stands for sorry um yes that's um the B it's the department for business energy and Industrial strategy so it's a
02:07:44 and Industrial strategy so it's a government department and this is the second witness statement of Sebastian Basset
02:07:49 Basset James who was an assistant director in that department when he made the statement uh and he explains that at the time of the fire he held the position of
02:08:00 time of the fire he held the position of assistant director um head of No Deal contingency operations for operation yellow Hammer at the cabinet office uh and his role
02:08:11 at the cabinet office uh and his role had then changed so so that's who he is um if we go in this statement to page four please paragraph 15 we see in it that he says this
02:08:23 15 we see in it that he says this uh whilst B Eis and the TMO both had Representatives present at the Westway Center the representatives from TMO at the Westway Center did not have the necessary authority to make
02:08:34 necessary authority to make decisions authorize actions or respond to the queries that the utilities coordination cell sought to address uh is is that correct well first of all the first I
02:08:47 correct well first of all the first I heard of this person yesterday when you were speaking to Theresa I heard never any meeting with this man and this is the first time I've seen or heard
02:08:58 the first time I've seen or heard this right from May is it the case is it a fact that those at the TMO didn't have the necessary authority to make decisions authorize actions or resp I would agree that because I don't know
02:09:09 would agree that because I don't know what the decisions or actions they were been asked to make by this man say did anybody come to you and say we'd like to do something but we don't have the power did you recall that ever happening no me
02:09:21 did you recall that ever happening no me the
02:09:22 the persons didn't give feedback as far as I can to any of us it was a problem we had as well as the staff on the ground because I think it talks about gas coordination later so I don't know about
02:09:34 coordination later so I don't know about that we had our our asset management team who are there to help people now if you look at the bottom of the screen bottom of the page he says members of the utilities coordination cell just
02:09:46 the utilities coordination cell just just pausing there did were you familiar with what that was no have you ever heard of it no sitting here now before I've just shown you the statement have you ever heard of it I only heard about
02:09:57 you ever heard of it I only heard about it yesterday because I was I was listening to to Teresa and your evidence right uh he goes on as we can see um members of the utilities coordination
02:10:08 members of the utilities coordination cell tried to make contact with various direct landline and mobile telephone numbers for specific contacts at the TMO provided by contacts within beis and Cadence gas Network as well as the
02:10:19 Cadence gas Network as well as the public facing telephone numbers for the TMO
02:10:21 TMO these telephone calls went unanswered and even when voicemail messages were left were not returned to my knowledge and if we continue uh at paragraph 20 on page
02:10:35 five he says by 21st June we still had no direct contact with the TMO and then he goes on in the four lines up from the end of the paragraph
02:10:46 lines up from the end of the paragraph by this stage we were working with defra and dclg to try to identify a point of contact in the TMO contact was finally made by dclg after a few days who were then able to update both defra and the
02:10:58 then able to update both defra and the utilities coordination cell first do do you recall um anybody at central government whether it's defra or whether it's beis or dclg attempting to identify
02:11:10 it's beis or dclg attempting to identify a point of contact in the TMO not as far as I'm aware I can't see why if they were Linked In at a strategic and National level and linked with gold why they wouldn't be able to get contact
02:11:22 they wouldn't be able to get contact numbers with us
02:11:26 right is this the first time you've ever heard of this complaint or problem yes I I
02:11:33 I think I think that's what's confusing about this I we I haven't heard of them I hadn't heard about the complaint no one had contacted me we were contactable I don't know who they were
02:11:45 I don't know who they were phoning uh now he goes on at um uh paragraph 21 to say that the utilities coordination cell's role was to provide support and reassurance to victims and residents who had suffered through this
02:11:56 residents who had suffered through this incident taking on as much of the administrative and communication burden as possible to help resolve their act their issues quickly and effectively as we were unable to get answers from or help progress actions through the TMO we
02:12:08 help progress actions through the TMO we were unable to fulfill our primary role we could still take steps to assist victims and residents but could not complete those tasks which were most important to us in my opinion this led to the victims and residents being left frustrated for a longer period than
02:12:20 frustrated for a longer period than necessary
02:12:21 necessary um do you have anything any response to what he says there I just find it incredibly difficult that a man's going to weigh
02:12:32 difficult that a man's going to weigh written This months after but I have no knowledge of it I don't believe who you contact so really confused so did anybody once contact was made of course
02:12:44 anybody once contact was made of course I can't assist you with when that was come to you and tell you that the utilities coordination cell had been trying to get hold of your staff and had failed a problem there was
02:12:55 staff and had failed a problem there was a problem as a result
02:12:59 no um let's turn next then to central government and London Gold can we look please at cab
02:13:10 45909 this is an
02:13:15 email uh well email run between a number of officials at number 10 Downing Street uh and if we start at page one on the second half of the page um we can see
02:13:26 second half of the page um we can see that there is an email from Chris Gray the assistant secretary to the prime minister to the other number 10 staff dated the 20th of June of 1844 and a number of updates are
02:13:37 1844 and a number of updates are provided and if you go to the top of page two there's a heading
02:13:43 rehousing and it says uh under that the first bullet point 109 households from Cordon area but not Tower block what happens to these people currently no
02:13:54 happens to these people currently no commitment to rehouse and and CLG stroke GC expected expect many to refuse to go back lots of work to be done on houses including on hot water M have no
02:14:06 including on hot water M have no solution so gold looking at commercial Solutions doesn't sound promising and there's a reply to that if you go up this up the page to page one top of the
02:14:17 top of the page it comes from Jamie cowling it's the second email down 21st of June at 0929 back to Chris Gray and L Gratton at number 10 and also to aliser whad um who
02:14:30 number 10 and also to aliser whad um who was the PPS to the prime minister at the time Chris all just to add the feedback from the residents that I've been speaking to is that rehousing the households from The Cordon area but not Grandfield Tower is becoming pressing
02:14:43 Grandfield Tower is becoming pressing they understand that there is an investigation Ono but would like to know when repairs and cleaning will start it's obviously a difficult situation
02:14:51 situation but the TMO don't appear to be handling comms particularly well now you deal with this to some extent in your third statement let's go to that page two paragraph
02:15:05 to that page two paragraph 8 uh you say there it was made very plain to me at Gold group and we've read this before all external internal and external Communications so we've seen that now in light of what you say there
02:15:16 that now in light of what you say there what do you say about Jamie King's email that the TMO don't appear to be handling comms well well I I'd say to Jimmy uh that you know did he know what he was doing did he
02:15:27 did he know what he was doing did he know who to speak to did he understand the gold command it just seems again num number 10 made a few interventions at a number of levels and they want to drop people in it
02:15:39 they want to drop people in it I I I find it we we weren't in control of coms we weren't allowed to put things out without approval from first of all rbkc then the G group so we weren't running a separate call thing to pick up
02:15:52 running a separate call thing to pick up anything Jamie was saying and I think if he was engaged with the rescue office and the people that were from the goal command they might understand that and I I suppose this is just the so by this
02:16:03 I suppose this is just the so by this time you've got number 10 waiting about trying to shut down companies get rid of people because that's the way they deal with things they didn't understand as a company they were on to my board all the
02:16:15 company they were on to my board all the time trying to say you have to wind yourself up without them having any understanding of the structure of the company I mean there was a a bullying exercise not a supportive exercise and I think this reflects sometimes all the stuff going
02:16:27 reflects sometimes all the stuff going behind the scenes I don't know back you may have the same answer to my next piece of evidence but let's see um go back to the email Run please which is Chris Gray's uh reply to Jamie calling
02:16:39 Chris Gray's uh reply to Jamie calling at the top of the screen 21st of June at 9:38 um at uh a copy to the same copy EAS that was another piece of feedback yesterday TMA remained terrible gold
02:16:51 yesterday TMA remained terrible gold command doing what they can CLG working very quickly with SOS on how they can remove tme from the TMO from the situation and hope to have an answer in days inevitable difficulties raised
02:17:02 days inevitable difficulties raised around contracts Etc were you aware at the time that within number 10 there were discussions of this nature about the tmo's role and the proposal to remove it from the
02:17:15 the proposal to remove it from the situation so I didn't have a link to number 10 so uh no so in and I imagine what what we know is number 10 uh contacted us a number of
02:17:27 number 10 uh contacted us a number of times to try to get rid of us without understanding that we have a board to engage with our board the structure of the company and it's not as simple as that and also the other thing is did you
02:17:39 that and also the other thing is did you really want the TMO to be got rid of because actually part of this inquiry is about holding the TMO to account so for me it's mixed messages it's uh government acting as it does uh trashing
02:17:51 government acting as it does uh trashing everybody else without actually giving them a chance to address it and it it was easy that time to slag us off as this does don't have to they don't have to communicate with us they can do this all behind their back well this is
02:18:03 all behind their back well this is internal of course but as a matter of fact did anybody in central government did anybody at number 10 did anybody in the cabinet office make or seek to make any contact with you personally to put these points to you
02:18:16 these points to you no now let's go to CLG 4 is 572
02:18:26 three this is an email chain within the dclg entitled TMO meeting uh uh and if we go please to the bottom of the thread at page uh
02:18:38 at page uh two this is an email from Melanie doors on the 20th of June 2017 at 1013 uh subject TMO meeting all um and
02:18:53 1013 uh subject TMO meeting all um and then it has agreed actions on the the TMO point and then the second bullet point is Sally to talk to Barbara about Intel on the ground and
02:19:05 Barbara about Intel on the ground and what she wants out of the TMO now of course you're not remotely copied in on this but um we can see it and and it goes on uh to say I'm sorry that that's what that says
02:19:18 say I'm sorry that that's what that says there and we can see the reply um up the chain please on page one and the Barbara as we can see is Barbara brownley um and this is the
02:19:29 Barbara brownley um and this is the email back from Sally Randall who was one of the addresses of Melanie doors's email back to Melanie doors's office and um it says this spoke to Barbara
02:19:40 um it says this spoke to Barbara brandley impression of what's going on TMO has no leadership everyone including KC is dithering TMO staff are drifting around traumatized rumors that some are computer records staff preoccupied with
02:19:53 computer records staff preoccupied with likelihood of criminal charges no one is taking care of the staff a handful of trying to do the job but are still very traumatized and working with no leadership they cannot get reliable information EG on the state of the
02:20:05 information EG on the state of the finger
02:20:06 finger blocks uh and then one of her people visited finger blocks with local maintenance person works could be done in two to three weeks but more likely to take two to three months given no leadership or
02:20:17 leadership or urgency It quotes if this was an our P the regulator would have had a new Chief exec in on day two and I think RP pres I'm assuming
02:20:28 two and I think RP pres I'm assuming means regulated person no registered provider ah okay thank you right um but now I I've shown you a block of um quite miserable reading there which I showed
02:20:40 miserable reading there which I showed Bob um Theresa Brown yesterday were you yourself aware that each or all of the concerns being expressed here about the TMO were being discussed at this level with with in the um senior most
02:20:52 with with in the um senior most Department uh on The Minister's side at the dclg no did anyone did anyone like Barbara brownley pick up the phone to you we'll send you a message and raise these concerns with you directly no but
02:21:03 these concerns with you directly no but the SS it Barbara is quite happy uh sending emails right and criticizing rather than Contracting us
02:21:12 right are you able to account for why there was such a poor impression at least in the mind of Barbara brownley communicated to senior government about the tma's performance in the immediate
02:21:24 aftermath I I'm I don't know Barbara branley I can't get into her head at that time she obviously reading this wanted rid of the TMO without a clear understanding of what the TMO was in
02:21:35 understanding of what the TMO was in terms like company the shape of it and the rules and regulations she didn't speak to us she didn't speak to my board she didn't raise these issues through the go group with there you know what I can see you
02:21:48 with there you know what I can see you know there's a conversation going on high above us which is all sort of fitting in with the the leadership that was put in without understanding the trouble we were having
02:22:00 understanding the trouble we were having and you know I suppose it's easy for these people to say it was easy to do but I I challenge these thoughts well looking at the bullet points I've read to you are any of are any of them
02:22:12 to you are any of are any of them factually
02:22:13 factually correct are any of them factually correct so let's start um let's start with TMO has no leadership everyone including KC is dithering was there a sense of dither and delay in in the TMO
02:22:26 sense of dither and delay in in the TMO uh and the council no I I think you know we were
02:22:31 we were we were managing a difficult situation and working with the rbkc the the dithering I don't know what that is in terms of actually what we're supposed to do in terms of leadership we had uh
02:22:43 do in terms of leadership we had uh senior managers on the ground supporting people but sometimes it took people because Sasha was in holiday so she didn't get back back uh until halfway through this
02:22:55 through this uh I find it quite hard to read and I don't accept at all I think what I will have to accept in terms of the list uh reliable information you know but I
02:23:09 uh reliable information you know but I think that just reflected the the situation we were
02:23:16 in but it was correct I think wasn't it as we've seen at least according to the fifth bullet point that they that is to TMO cannot get reliable information on
02:23:27 TMO cannot get reliable information on the state of the finger blocks well I accept that yeah yeah uh now uh the email continues at the
02:23:35 the foot after the reference in the first bullet point above that to a new strong Chief exec who can provide a single point of liaison clear information and strong leadership it says Campbell
02:23:47 strong leadership it says Campbell tickel uh has spoken to BB Baba Brandy for that her know that the TMO have approached them for an interim chief executive we have also heard this did you know anything of that yes you did
02:23:58 you know anything of that yes you did what's that about what's this is the 20th I think we were having
02:24:05 having issues that how the Teo could go forward so at that stage we're still we don't manage link West we still manage 9,000 home so the board had discussions about
02:24:16 home so the board had discussions about the future of the organization as I think is their responsibility so you knew that the TMO was looking for an interim chief executive that person not being you yeah
02:24:28 not being you yeah right so you is this right you well and who had told you that who told me that I sat done with my book so there there was a number of issues alongside this as a
02:24:39 a number of issues alongside this as a company in in terms of as we were spending money uh to manage things uh there came a point where the the board had to be clear about would it be able
02:24:50 had to be clear about would it be able to be supported financially or what they couldn't do was trade illegally because you're you don't have the money because we're on a fixed contract price with the council so there was discussions around
02:25:02 council so there was discussions around this because in sense what we required was rbkc to provide cover so that we could actually continue to contribute uh to the the the whole disaster and manage
02:25:14 to the the the whole disaster and manage the house and stuff and we came to with my board uh decision that I I would step aside if that helped the situation to secure the financial future of the TMO
02:25:26 secure the financial future of the TMO so I was aware of the discussion with my board it's something I agreed with uh and that was the situation did anyone within the TMO the board in particular rais
02:25:37 TMO the board in particular rais concerns with you about your leadership in the immediate aftermath of the no did John baradel or anybody else from his team at London Gold rais concerns
02:25:48 team at London Gold rais concerns directly with you about your leadership or about the condition of your staff as per this email no were you aware that John baradel had raised concerns about the tmo's
02:26:00 raised concerns about the tmo's performance uh at the Prime Minister chaired GRL Tower recovery task force ministerial meeting no on the 20th
02:26:09 no D Melanie doors's impression according to her statement at paragraph 102 is that the leadership of team of the TMO did not appear to be functioning at all that's her impression
02:26:21 at all that's her impression um are you able to account for how she gained that impression I don't know I again I didn't meet her I don't think she came to visit us or talk to or talk to my board so again I think people get these
02:26:32 again I think people get these Impressions by not engaging with my company or its board and it suited their narrative to get rid of the Teo uh so you know it's bury bad news and bury on
02:26:43 you know it's bury bad news and bury on the Teo did Laura Johnson or anybody at all from the council come to you and raise concerns such as those expressed here or expressed by Melanie dors about your leadership or about your staff
02:26:57 no now one of the key roles that Teresa Brown and her team were undertaking was maintaining a list of safe and missing residents yes yes and one of the purposes of that list was to identify
02:27:08 purposes of that list was to identify those who were safe in order to in order to be able to inform rbkc who it was who needed support and who needed emergency accommodation yes yes yes from your
02:27:19 accommodation yes yes yes from your recollection was it right that rbkc was relying on the list of residents uh as maintained by the TMO yes I think they had to because in sense we had the house and management system so that's where we
02:27:31 and management system so that's where we got the information from did did you have any concerns about the reliability of the initial tenant list that the safe and missing list was based on namely the it records the
02:27:42 it records the database uh no that's the the actual tency in the lease holders would be complete because that's that's there it's the information beyond
02:27:53 that's there it's the information beyond that could vary depending on what we knew about the tenant or Le solders did you have any concerns about the reliability of safe and missing lists created in on the 14th 15th of June given the way the information was
02:28:05 given the way the information was collated namely scraps of paper manuscript records um collected at the various rest centers and then pulled into a spreadsheet I didn't have the time but having listened to uh sort of
02:28:18 time but having listened to uh sort of Theresa's evidence yesterday I've become very aware that actually there were mistakes made and people faced uh been given terrible news because we
02:28:30 uh been given terrible news because we we' done it incorrectly or not identified mistakes so I have to take in terms of as a company we have to accept that as our responsibility and we feel to do it correctly are you able to tell
02:28:43 to do it correctly are you able to tell us why TMO staff relatively Junior I not in the senior leadership or in the executive
02:28:50 executive positions at TMO were left to um left to conduct that role carry out that Ro well I think that was their job that's what they did they maintained the housing
02:29:01 they did they maintained the housing management team maintained the housing records on that system so they they were the ones that actually used it all the time knew how it worked knew how to put the information on so it was appropriate from Theresa and our team leaders that
02:29:14 from Theresa and our team leaders that they were the ones working to pull it together using both local knowledge and what was on the system did you ever push the problem about maintaining these lists back to rbkc on the basis that
02:29:26 lists back to rbkc on the basis that they were ultimately responsible for the management of the lists as category one responders I I don't think I did at that time because I saw it as part of our to provide them with information in
02:29:37 provide them with information in retrospect that may have been the better thing to do
02:29:45 right now one of the other key roles Theresa Brown and her team were involved in was identifying displaced residents from evacuated properties and facilitating their return and you've
02:29:56 facilitating their return and you've yourself mentioned the number of 840 or so affected residents why did you why did you consider it appropriate for your staff to be undertaking such a significant
02:30:08 significant role I think cuz we were rting because we managed the property previously I I think did it did it occur to you to push back the problem to the council uh and
02:30:21 back the problem to the council uh and then after Friday the 16th to London Gold and tell them that that's their job from then on I didn't think that Ian if again rly that might have been the better thing to do at the time my
02:30:33 better thing to do at the time my feeling was that we could help and support and provide the service that was required but what training did your staff have to be involved so integrally with such a central part of a mass
02:30:46 with such a central part of a mass displacement event well I I think I think very few people had experience or training that across most of the companies I knew because the the
02:30:57 companies I knew because the the disaster we had is beyond most people's comprehension of what we plan for looking back on it was the tma's performance adversely affected perhaps by a lack of Staffing capacity a lack of
02:31:09 by a lack of Staffing capacity a lack of resources or
02:31:13 expertise I I think eventually resources would probably we should have as you've we've gone through this narrative that I should have pushed more for gold to
02:31:25 should have pushed more for gold to include us if that was impossible uh I think our staff based did their best in difficult circumstances uh and I think you learn
02:31:38 circumstances uh and I think you learn from these experiences in terms of actually what's the capacity of your organization and when you need more help well on the subject of learning let's look please at your fourth statement page nine paragraph
02:31:56 34 um the question above paragraph 314 is this in your view did the TMO receive appropriate support from rbkc to fulfill its role for example in
02:32:07 fulfill its role for example in facilitating the return of evacuated residents and the work at rest centers and the Westway Center so it's a question asking for your your your own view uh and you say it parag 34 I
02:32:21 view uh and you say it parag 34 I believe so it is difficult now to piece together everything that we and the rbkc were doing but my perception at the time which Remains the Same was that everyone was trying their very best and were doing what they could to work
02:32:32 doing what they could to work collaboratively and in Partnership now that's a view that you expressed when you produced um this uh witness statement which as we saw earlier you did in December 2020 is it a view you
02:32:45 did in December 2020 is it a view you maintain
02:32:47 maintain today I think my views evolved mean having listened and seen other issues I think uh we should have my role should have been to ask for more support uh
02:33:00 have been to ask for more support uh from gold or to be more engaged in it uh and I feel that's one of the reflections I've I've got to take away from here and does that tell us that you at
02:33:12 here and does that tell us that you at least in retrospect were not adequately supported by uh by London Gold in the aftermath I well I think I was I was I thought for a bit before but
02:33:24 was I was I thought for a bit before but when I when you showed me these narrators from people who who really weren't there to help us I would say yes I think they could have offered us more help I think their decision was
02:33:35 us more help I think their decision was not to help us uh not talk to us uh to leave us and we tried our best during incredibly difficult times to respond if that
02:33:45 that was
02:33:47 was uh was over confid you could do then that's that's again one of the things you you find when you live through a disaster in terms of actually how much you can do and if we look at page 11 of the same
02:34:00 do and if we look at page 11 of the same statement please two pages on paragraph 43 foot of the screen the question is what were your observations of RB KC's response to the granfield tower fire in terms of the provision of
02:34:11 tower fire in terms of the provision of emergency relief and your answer at paragraph 43 was my observation was that rbkc did everything they could in an extremely difficult situation all of their staff at all levels worked
02:34:23 their staff at all levels worked incredibly hard to provide support in partnership with the TMO now um again looking back on it now um is that a view you maintain still today well my view is I still think all the staff worked as
02:34:35 I still think all the staff worked as hard as they could I think probably you know looking back at it that rbkc should have uh maybe reached out to get more support in more quicker and even bigger
02:34:46 support in more quicker and even bigger than they they did I think that's uh just in terms of actually the way the disaster sort of grew so it wasn't like a disaster on day one it continued for a number of reasons and I think that
02:34:58 number of reasons and I think that challenged resources uh and I think housing is incredibly difficult it's not an easy one when people are made homeless to to find them new homes and looking next
02:35:10 find them new homes and looking next please at page 12 there's a question at the top of the page same question your observations of the intervention and response of London Authority gold to the gral tower fire in
02:35:22 Authority gold to the gral tower fire in terms of emergency relief and you say having thought about it my view is that their involvement was positive in that they were able to provide additional resource at different levels to the emergency effort the additional resource
02:35:34 emergency effort the additional resource was welcome at that time as those involved who been working non-stop for days they brought a freshness and allowed those who had been working long hours to recover and rest again they tried their best in very difficult circumstances given the evidence you've
02:35:47 circumstances given the evidence you've given this morning about London and gold and its response and its relationship with the TMO during those days after the 16th of June do you still are you still of the views that you express at
02:35:58 of the views that you express at paragraph 44 that I just read to you I think when I wrote this that was my view I think having been presented with uh correspondence I think it reflects that
02:36:09 correspondence I think it reflects that as I've reflected since of far that the Teo was a bit cut off and the narrative that you've shown me behind uh government was actually they didn't want to deal with us uh or they just wanted
02:36:20 to deal with us uh or they just wanted rid of us without understanding us wouldn't speak to us I wouldn't speak to my board in a sense dealing with us so far away without any understanding of of what we
02:36:31 what we were doing or trying to do so I I would say my position has changed I think they could have done more I think they could have talked to us I think when you bring people in and you've got whole number 10
02:36:44 people in and you've got whole number 10 talking about how you're behind your back you might ask them what did they do apart from write reports and gossip
02:36:51 Mr Black I've come to the end of my prepared questions I may have some more questions for you either from my own preparations or from others so I'm going to ask the chairman for the the usual break at this point yes well you you
02:37:04 break at this point yes well you you know now from your previous experience Mr Black that at this point we have to have a short break do you think um 10 minutes or so will be enough Mr Millet uh it it it should be uh let's go with
02:37:17 uh it it it should be uh let's go with 10 minutes if we Mo I'm going to say that we'll come back back at 10 to1 okay and we'll see then if there are any questions if Mr milet needs more time he can let us know and we could be a little longer but uh we'll say 10 to one please
02:37:29 longer but uh we'll say 10 to one please all right thank you very
02:37:37 much thank you Mr milet 10 to one then please thank
02:37:48 you
02:38:18 e
02:38:48 e
02:39:18 e
02:39:48 e
02:40:18 e
02:40:48 e
02:41:18 e
02:41:48 e
02:42:18 e
02:42:48 e
02:43:18 e
02:43:48 e
02:44:18 e
02:44:48 e
02:45:17 e
02:45:47 e
02:46:17 e
02:46:47 e
02:47:17 e
02:47:47 e
02:48:17 e
02:48:47 e
02:49:17 e
02:49:47 e
02:50:17 e e
02:51:02 would you ask S to Black to come back in
02:51:14 please right Mr blackw going to see if there any more questions thank you yes Mr yes one or two Mr chairman there are um can I ask you please to go to rbk
02:51:30 41095 now this is the um management board meeting on the 14th of June at 11:00
02:51:37 11:00 a.m. at which you are were in attendance uh and uh if you go please to page
02:51:46 three uh you can see uh there uh that uh uh you uh
02:51:58 uh uh you uh um there's there's an update uh if you see if you see that and uh and
02:52:06 uh and uh in the last bullet point under the update from Robert GL it says the board are to appoint a PR firm tonight to handle media and Communications yes yes why why did you
02:52:19 Communications yes yes why why did you consider it necessary to appoint a PR firm to handle media and Communications so again it was my board made a decision that after the fire we
02:52:31 that after the fire we were we were overwhelmed with press uh newspaper TV uh requests outside our
02:52:42 requests outside our offices uh is beyond our C we had one Comm is beyond his skill and the board fell although there it was down here is
02:52:53 fell although there it was down here is a PR firm it's basically a crisis management firm which basically we've got one individ one whole individual who' experienced managing uh difficult situations
02:53:04 situations disasters uh and the support of his company behind that so in the sense it was to help us lift the bird down because we were just struggling almost sort of been buried with uh the number
02:53:16 sort of been buried with uh the number of quests or people trying to into our offices it was nothing I'd ever experienced before um in in the bullet point second down within your update you
02:53:27 point second down within your update you update the board and you say the building was totally refurbished a few years ago including the windows cladding and smoke dispersal unit The Works went through all the necessary processes and safety checks and were signed off by
02:53:38 safety checks and were signed off by building control there were now outstanding works the next fire assessment was in July 2019 we will understand what happened once the immediate threat was over was that not the context for you appointing
02:53:51 that not the context for you appointing the pr firm no the the
02:53:57 the so the context was explaining what had happened to the building uh and then the next bullet points were just board decisions did you have any personal role
02:54:08 decisions did you have any personal role in in the appointment no they were appointed along with a set of lawyers by the time I came back from my meeting one day right would you know when can you remember when it'd be quite soon after
02:54:20 remember when it'd be quite soon after the fire in terms of uh cuz the board was meeting almost continuously uh and they were trying to support our resident board members who were uh finding it incredibly difficult
02:54:31 were uh finding it incredibly difficult as well and they were taking advice about in the light of This Disaster what you need to be doing how you need to manage the media and how you need to manage public inquiry and like going forward right was the purpose or one of
02:54:44 forward right was the purpose or one of the purposes of appointing a PR firm this stage to seek to preserve the tmo's
02:54:51 tmo's reputation in light of the possible threats or claims or allegations being made about the refurbishment no I don't think so I think the the pointment of the company was to deal with the
02:55:02 the company was to deal with the onslaught of media and press inquiries at that situation there wasn't about the board wasn't at that stage thinking about the the future was to deal with the here and now and the
02:55:15 deal with the here and now and the difficulties we're having sort of get into our offices and and and all that I mean it was if you've ever been in something like it it's it's it's it's it's beyond our skills and this company
02:55:26 it's beyond our skills and this company managed
02:55:27 managed to work with the media to to give us a break in a sense in terms of to do Comm them or to let us get into our offices it wasn't about anything else you see
02:55:38 it wasn't about anything else you see some people might see this item here as the TMO prioritizing the appointment of a PR firm to handle its reputation in the light of the potential allegations of about the cladding at this stage
02:55:50 of about the cladding at this stage rather than helping the families what would you say to that so I think there's two things isn't it I mean the board has made the decision to help us managing the Press how we're helping the family was a completely families are a
02:56:02 family was a completely families are a completely different set of resources so again I while people might have the view that wasn't my board's View and it wasn't my view it's about how we can actually function with the
02:56:13 how we can actually function with the level of press scrutiny we're getting not just from the UK but from across the world and they were all camped outside our offices and we just couldn't move and that was the the the key focus of
02:56:24 and that was the the the key focus of the board at that time at that appointment can we go to rbk
02:56:40 32073 this is the uh Gold group meeting we looked at earlier on the 16th of June 10:00 a.m. uh and if you go to page
02:56:51 two uh in in that um you can see under the heading assisting the statutary authorities with their investigation the first bullet point says
02:57:02 point says rbkc uh have appointed uh lawyers and then four bullet points down TMO have appointed their own lawyers and are having to balance PR decisions with the
02:57:13 having to balance PR decisions with the legalities of the inquiry been advised that the police could take their servers now in appointing lawyers and in assuming that computers would be seized was it clear that there was a a massive
02:57:24 was it clear that there was a a massive problem that both rbkc and the and the TMO were simultaneously involved in namely an accusation or allegation that it was it caused or had contributed to
02:57:36 it was it caused or had contributed to the
02:57:38 the fire no I think my the board appointed lawyers to help advise them and manage through this process which which was huge you recognize there would be a
02:57:50 huge you recognize there would be a police inquiry because of death and also probably I can't remember it was announced about a public Inquirer at that time so in a sense it was a third was another body to make sure we did the right thing make sure we we preserved
02:58:02 right thing make sure we we preserved our records make sure there was there's no sort of uh uh that you could you know basically it was all kept intact what the underlying point that I'm really seeking to drive out here is
02:58:13 I'm really seeking to drive out here is is this did you at the time perceive or did your board perceive that there was an intrinsic problem a conflict if you like between on the one hand the
02:58:25 like between on the one hand the allegations of blame being laid at the tmo's
02:58:30 tmo's door on the one hand but on the other hand the TMO being involved simultaneously in the relief effort no I don't think there was they saw conflict I think they saw it was
02:58:42 saw conflict I think they saw it was completely different things in the sense they so as supporting Rel relief effort was what we should be doing and secondly as a board they need to take instruction and advice from lawyers about how to go
02:58:56 and advice from lawyers about how to go forward to make sure we do things properly and finally Mr Black and it's a question we ask a number of witnesses as I'm sure you know looking back on looking back on it all looking back on
02:59:07 looking back on it all looking back on the entirety of the tmo's response to the aftermath and your own role in it and the evidence that we've looked through this morning in particular is there anything now that you think you would should have done
02:59:19 would should have done differently well I think I've made some comments when answering your questions which I I think that certainly round you know in reflection and going through the evidence that I should have maybe been
02:59:32 evidence that I should have maybe been more forceful at uh the go group in terms of some of the issues we mentioned I don't know if I wasn't because you were just so in shock with the thing or the structure that you didn't know how you fitted into it but I certainly think
02:59:44 you fitted into it but I certainly think now because of maners I should have been more pushing on that I think we should have asked for more resources and being direct uh to London Gold uh and that may
02:59:56 direct uh to London Gold uh and that may have stopped uh may have helped the situation I I think I think the whole collection of information although people tried their
03:00:08 information although people tried their best obviously uh wasn't as good as it should have been and uh I apologize about what heart Rach that must have caused for people
03:00:20 thank you very much Mr Black those are all the questions I have for you it remains only for me to thank you very much for coming again to the inquiry and assisting us with with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you thank you thank you and Mr Black
03:00:33 to you thank you thank you and Mr Black is right that I should thank you as well on behalf of the panel it's been your third appearance before us and where or at least before the inquiry and uh we're grateful to you for coming yet again to
03:00:46 grateful to you for coming yet again to tell us what you can tell us about this particular aspect of the whole Affair um it's been very helpful to hear what you have to tell us and we're grateful to you for coming and uh now you are free to go thank you very much thank you very
03:01:00 [Music]
03:01:09 much thank you Mr Millet um we have another witness this afternoon is that right we do we have two witnesses this afternoon from the rest centers and Miss Islam will be conducting their
03:01:20 Islam will be conducting their examination good thank you very much well we'll do that then please at 2:00 2:00 please