Teresa Brown from the TMO gives evidence about the organization's response to evacuated residents from surrounding walkway buildings after the fire.
00:00:19 would you ask ms brown to come back in please okay
00:00:35 all right ready to carry on yes thank you take a moment to get organized
00:00:41 organized yes
00:00:42 yes yes mr chairman um miss brown i just want to revisit something we touched on earlier today um briefly again um tmo at the rugby portobello club first do you know where
00:00:55 portobello club first do you know where the tma staff physically placed themselves within the club premises um so from from maria's maria chapel's evidence i can see that um she was saying that they had a
00:01:08 um she was saying that they had a table on the ground floor um and then they were seeing people there as they came in and then they were directing people upstairs right
00:01:19 right so you were you were aware of the layout of the club you've got a small reception and a larger subterranean area i'm sorry i don't i wasn't in there so i don't know it directly um i just
00:01:32 it directly um i just know that um from her evidence that's what she she was saying and i um yeah i think i don't know any more than that but i just thought it was a table near the
00:01:44 just thought it was a table near the front
00:01:45 front on the ground floor right and that's where you thought is this right the tma staff were located yes because she was um my head of service in that in that
00:01:56 service in that in that rest center that's what she gives us her evidence right i see so you what you know is based on her evidence rather than your own what i know is that there are a substantial amount of our staff in the rugby porter fellow club where they
00:02:10 the rugby porter fellow club where they physically were in relation to anywhere else i don't know okay now let's turn to the 15th of june 2017 and i want to ask you about the communication with evacuated residents can we go please first to your fifth
00:02:21 can we go please first to your fifth statement page nine paragraph 46 we're now at the 15th of june with brown and you say in that paragraph on this date my neighborhood tmo team carried
00:02:33 date my neighborhood tmo team carried out a first phone round to finger block and tread gold house residents to offer support and to identify where they were in hotels or staying with family and friends etc now we've already established that there was no process in
00:02:45 established that there was no process in place as i think you've told us on the 14th of june to identify evacuated non-grenfell residents can you confirm for us that this was the first time that attempts were made to contact evacuated residents from those those buildings
00:02:58 residents from those those buildings other than at the rest centers the day before yes yes now what time did your team begin these phone calls to evacuated residents um i don't know precisely but that i
00:03:09 um i don't know precisely but that i know they would do done during the day right can i take you then to tm01036636
00:03:29 now this is uh a document it looks like it's a script uh entitled calls to surrounding blocks and you've got nicola b and in questions
00:03:40 and you've got nicola b and in questions and then underneath that main message do you see
00:03:43 you see uh which says wanting to check where they are we will continue to liaise with emergency services and communicate when safe to return home you can approach the local police with id for access in
00:03:54 local police with id for access in absolute emergencies only at the moment our priority is to check you are safe and also you go over the page
00:04:03 and also to ensure our customers at grenfell
00:04:07 grenfell now um
00:04:08 now um first who drafted this document um i think one of the team leaders must have done maybe maybe nicola i didn't how was the sentence ending our customers at grenfell supposed to end it
00:04:20 customers at grenfell supposed to end it looks incomplete i i wouldn't know that um can we go back yes go back a page um
00:04:32 at the moment oh sorry
00:04:38 go back forward
00:04:48 no i don't know what she was intending to say
00:04:51 to say right
00:04:53 right um
00:04:55 um what was a customer at grenfell
00:04:59 a resident for another word a resident tenant leaseholder is that is that what you thought of them customers
00:05:08 customers is that how the tma regarded them yes but these aren't people trading at arm's length with the tmos people buying goods or services but why did you call them customers
00:05:19 why did you call them customers i think people over the years people have called residents different different things we call them tennis leaders sometimes customers
00:05:31 i mean they're not customers are they in reality they're residents to whom the council provides homes under a statutory obligation can you explain how the concept of custom ever entered into the the language
00:05:44 ever entered into the the language um i think it's a term that's been used across housing organizations over periods of times that wouldn't be just new to us at the tmo
00:05:56 just new to us at the tmo um we had a customer strategy it must have gone you know come from that language
00:06:01 language right
00:06:05 um was this script used for calls being made to evacuated residents on the 15th of june
00:06:11 of june um
00:06:14 so it looks like it is it's the the other page looks like it's for the walkways
00:06:20 walkways right and if you look at page two the title says uh calls to grenfell tower with a similar list of questions yeah uh
00:06:29 uh and then there's a title message and it says again wanting to check where they are and then it goes on we will continue to liaise with emergency services at the moment any belongings they can go to the west way for this if they need any funds
00:06:41 west way for this if they need any funds then they can contact the temporary accommodation team or approach westway sports centre what is the main message in this document for evacuated residents and indeed grenfell
00:06:52 evacuated residents and indeed grenfell tower residents um
00:06:54 um well why does it differ in that evacuated residents are not directed to the westway centre for belongings funds or temporary accommodation sorry can you just say that again yes i i'm afraid i gobbled the question
00:07:06 i'm afraid i gobbled the question the question is this you can see that the two messages are different but why are they different why does the main message for evacuated residents
00:07:17 residents not direct people to the westway center for belongings funds or temporary accommodation whereas the one for grenfell does um
00:07:28 i don't know i don't think the intention was that you wouldn't that anybody couldn't receive support from the west way from other services that were there um there was
00:07:39 um there was support in many ways from the west way so i don't think we would actually have deterred we would have encouraged people to go there if they felt they needed the support of services there so maybe it's just the way they're at that it's written and they just staff won't just
00:07:52 written and they just staff won't just have had these words given to them we had daily briefings we tried to keep everybody updated about what their key messages were so um
00:08:01 um this won't have been the only communication well that may be but on its face it looks as if
00:08:08 if resident residents who had been evacuated from grenfell tower were being given a different message from those evacuated from the walkways on its face at least
00:08:19 walkways on its face at least yeah yes
00:08:21 yeah yes why do you know why that was no i'm not saying
00:08:25 saying i think
00:08:26 i think we thought at this time that most of the people from grandfather would have been housed in
00:08:31 housed in hotels by this stage sorry
00:08:38 and beyond that i'm not really sure why it's different but um but i think we
00:08:45 we you know we knew that that was the main um source of help and assistance so um
00:08:53 anyone could have gone there for support and advice but if you go back to page one
00:09:00 and indeed over to page two um there's name and that's the main message for evacuated residents
00:09:12 to from the walkways there's no indication in there of any support being offered at all is there unlike the message to the grenfell tower okay so so this the the
00:09:23 grenfell tower okay so so this the the the residence of the walkways um we're just checking to see where they are at this stage this is in in the in the day what i had been hoping for um
00:09:34 the day what i had been hoping for um and i was waiting for instructions from rbkc was to be allowed to go back into the cordon area into the walkways um and i had a team on of of staff on hand all day ready to go and
00:09:46 hand all day ready to go and physically door knock check people whether cheap whether people needed any help and support and you know in those in those
00:09:54 in those visits and door knocks we did very much um sign people to support from other services
00:10:01 services and that would have been also going to the west way if they wanted to i mean given that the policy had changed the previous afternoon and that those evacuated from the
00:10:12 the walkway buildings were also to be accommodated overnight at the west way what was the rationale at this stage morning of the 15th of june for any different message
00:10:24 um any message different from that which was being given to the grenfell tower evacuees well i i think there's some there was some confusion in this because my understanding is that nobody in the walkways had been allowed to go home
00:10:37 walkways had been allowed to go home um i had understood that um they've been evacuated by the police but when we did these door knocks we found that some people had been allowed through the court cordon and i think um
00:10:49 through the court cordon and i think um there's there's some evidence from one of my colleagues who was saying that in the door in these phone rounds we found that there were um about i think it was 56 people who had already been allowed in the day
00:11:00 had already been allowed in the day before
00:11:01 before well let's look at tmo one double zero three six six five one and this is an email from angelique noble to you and other tmo staff at 1826 on
00:11:13 to you and other tmo staff at 1826 on the 15th of june as you can see and
00:11:17 and we can see the table underneath it
00:11:22 and you've got the numbers at home numbers not at home don't know totals for each of herstway tested and barrendon you see that so some are at home and some are not attained so that does that
00:11:34 some are not attained so that does that rather make your point that not everybody was evacuated he does
00:11:39 he does and um you you say in your statement let's just look at paragraph let's look at statement number six page 17 paragraph 58 you say that the table was produced
00:11:51 you say that the table was produced um following a a call on the 15th of june to residence in walkways and so that's the ring around you you're referring to it yes do you know why first let's go back to the table if we can
00:12:02 can please tm0100 36651 um do you know first of all why the table only captures residents in hearst way where tested and barrington walks um
00:12:14 i i believe that bramley were all back as far as we knew it and i think tread gold house we would have done a separate a separate ring around this is just
00:12:26 a separate ring around this is just reporting on these i suspect you will be able to find something separate on gold what about grenfell walk the two buildings just to the south of the tower um
00:12:39 grenfell what we would have called around but i think that would have been um my recollection is that they were then recorded there was um a spreadsheet with grenfell tower and grenfell walk
00:12:51 with grenfell tower and grenfell walk then separated and we updated that list right and do these numbers represent individual uh people or households the the
00:13:03 the the individual numbers it's numbered based on contact so i'm i'm not quite sure i would imagine this is this is house households but i'm not quite sure and can you account for
00:13:15 account for why it was that somewhere at home and some were not no i can't i was um i was
00:13:22 i was white somewhere home and i was um
00:13:28 because some had been let through by the police and when we did the door knock um the next day we found some people saying they actually weren't evacuated so i didn't really ever understand that
00:13:39 didn't really ever understand that i see
00:13:44 so if you or the or the council was trying to get a handle on how many evacuees you or they had to prepare for
00:13:55 you or they had to prepare for on the 14th
00:13:58 how did you if if you did how did you cater for the fact that a large percentage uh were
00:14:05 uh were not being evacuated at all i couldn't have accounted for if i didn't know that they weren't being evacuated i did i didn't i didn't i thought they were i thought every
00:14:17 thought they were i thought every everyone had been evacuated i'm right am i thinking that the line that reads do not know is actually not at home but do not know where they are yeah
00:14:28 where they are yeah yes at that particular time this is just a snapshot because there were other details in there yes thank you
00:14:37 so right
00:14:40 right i mean can that be right looking at the totals you've got 56 at home
00:14:46 home 95 not at home and then 216 which isn't uh how does the 216 relate to the 95 so
00:14:56 so the 19
00:15:08 well may i suggest that the way it reads i'm sorry no if you've got the answer you tell me yes i have because they're not at home because we know they're either at the west state or or with relatives and with uh in temporary
00:15:20 relatives and with uh in temporary accommodation and the others we just didn't know at all right so you've got you've got people you know to be at home people you know not to be at home but you know where they are and people where whom you don't know
00:15:31 whom you don't know where they are yes that's right but not but assume you do know that they're not at home is that right um yes in that we've called and i yeah we do know they're not home yeah
00:15:45 i yeah we do know they're not home yeah well we think we know they're not at home i have to say because you know we we made calls and people may or may not have been home we did visit some people may or not have been home so it was actually you know a picture that was
00:15:56 actually you know a picture that was quite difficult to work out now
00:16:00 now can we then go to um
00:16:04 um your your sixth statement again please paragraph 57 page 16
00:16:11 page 16 in that statement and you say there at the foot of the screen my recollection is that a similar spreadsheet that used to record residents who were missing and safe was created for the team leaders to document the conversations they had with
00:16:22 document the conversations they had with non-grenfell residents this captured issues in relation to the property and included names and addresses turn the page names and addresses whether the residents were in a hotel or
00:16:34 whether the residents were in a hotel or not and did that process just pausing there did that process start on the 15th of june
00:16:41 of june um yes i believe that it did yeah now if we go please to kieran sings second supplemental statement this is a tmo double zero eight nine four four one zero
00:16:52 zero page four
00:16:53 page four paragraph four a he we can see it addresses how the list for walkway residence was developed and he says uh
00:17:05 and he says uh in 4a
00:17:06 in 4a this this list uh which is what he's referring to was based on the finger blocks tenancy list the information would have been extracted and downloaded from capita although i am unsure
00:17:17 although i am unsure who would have done this and he continues at 4c this document could not have been updated prior to the fire as it was not in existence the data was extracted from the tma system and the list was created post-fire however
00:17:29 the list was created post-fire however as above tenancy changes within the finger blocks would have been updated on the system as and when new information was available or when tenancy information had changed the process was the tenants would inform customer service centre or their neighborhood
00:17:41 service centre or their neighborhood officer who would update the system as described above does that accord with your understanding of how the list was formulated um yes with the safe and missing list for grenfell tower residents
00:17:52 grenfell tower residents presumably you would accept that the accuracy of the information within the list was based only on the information recorded on the system based internal on what the tmo had told the until the tma yes the the tenants until the tms yeah
00:18:05 yes the the tenants until the tms yeah did the tmo have a system at all in place to review and update that those records regularly whether or not they've been told it by tenants um we had uh
00:18:17 um we had uh and we have covered this in previous evidence we did have a tenancy check process and we also had our crm system um which we used um when people called the customer service center
00:18:29 the customer service center um
00:18:30 um and as i've said that was used to review um
00:18:34 um tenant information on the first page now let's look further into the detail can we go to tm0100 five
00:18:43 five tma one double zero three six six six five
00:18:47 five and what i'm showing you here is an example of the spreadsheet that was used to record information from the calls am i right
00:18:55 i right um yes
00:18:56 um yes in relation at least to the finger blocks now if you go to column l on the right hand side of the screen and the rows highlighted in red and scroll down the spreadsheet you can see
00:19:07 scroll down the spreadsheet you can see a number under l we go very slowly in red pausing there row
00:19:13 row 32
00:19:15 32 number not valid uh message left uh something number not available no vm facility
00:19:27 vm facility i think i think that the second one says message left on vm voicemail uh uh et cetera and you can see the kinds of difficulties is that because the records that the tmo held
00:19:39 because the records that the tmo held for residents were not up to date no it's because the red is please mark red to enable if unable to contact so we're highlighting um we haven't got hold of them it may be
00:19:51 um we haven't got hold of them it may be because the information was um
00:19:54 um not up to date they may not have given us a new phone number or it may just have been that we couldn't contact them at that particular time we would have tried again but i think you accept that it would include
00:20:05 it would include a change of data the reason for not contacting or being able to it may have been yeah um and let's let's go to another example tm010034288
00:20:20 now what i was showing you here showing you was finger blocks and tread gold and bramley
00:20:27 this if we go to the next one tmo one double zero three four two eight eight please
00:20:36 this is it um and uh
00:20:39 and uh this has two tabs um finger blocks and tread gold and bramley house do you know why they were different spreadsheets um
00:20:54 i don't know why there's there's no difference between fingers and finger blocks and tread cold separately they're just three separate blocks sorry
00:21:03 sorry let me just compare this with the previous document we were looking at if we go back just for a moment to tm01003 665. yeah
00:21:13 665. yeah so i think this is separated block so this is people being given right so this is i think one
00:21:24 is it is this the full block list full finger blocks this one this one i'm showing you is it's called sheet one yeah and has got um
00:21:34 um it's the full walkway it's the full walkway correct so the second one i was showing you let's get back to that tm0100 34288 has got finger blocks and tread gold yeah one tab and bramley is another my
00:21:46 yeah one tab and bramley is another my question is why were there different spreadsheets um i think kieran explains this in his evidence and that we were allocating certain blocks certain properties for
00:21:57 certain blocks certain properties for individuals to to ring around that may be why they're they're separate right
00:22:03 right so is it right the tmo staff were populating different spreadsheets with updates from their calls with residents no so they were they were opera excuse me
00:22:14 they were they were amalgamated into one spreadsheet so i don't think that they were
00:22:20 were um
00:22:21 um they yes they were they were completing them individually and then they were put into a document yeah i understand it so that they could be responsible for inputting the data now if you scroll uh across
00:22:36 uh hold on a minute if you scroll across slowly
00:22:41 slowly you can see keep going keep going uh so you keep going you've got you've got a lot of redacted
00:22:52 got a lot of redacted information there just look at the kinds of redactions we've got columns stop there please for age
00:23:01 age language
00:23:02 language and under v visual impairment w hearing impairment x physical disability why vulnerable physical disability z mental health vulnerable mental health learning difficulty wheelchair user
00:23:14 learning difficulty wheelchair user mobility and uh mobility difficult vulnerable to harassment uh disabled question mark there's a lot of different categorizations of vulnerability on that
00:23:25 categorizations of vulnerability on that spreadsheet now they've all been redacted
00:23:31 can i they can i compare that though with another example with this time this relates to grenfell walk tmo one double zero one seven five four three
00:23:42 this is for grenfell walk as you can see we're actually on the grenfell tower tab we can click on grenfell walk and scroll across again slowly in the
00:23:53 and scroll across again slowly in the same way that we did with the last spreadsheet we've got age redacted
00:24:00 redacted and then redactions in k
00:24:03 k to p columns k to p keep going across but they're nothing else um
00:24:12 um is it the position that the information in the columns that have the redacted blocks was the same so far so far as vulnerability was concerned or is it the case that this
00:24:23 concerned or is it the case that this spreadsheet didn't have any columns in it capturing data on vulnerabilities as we saw in the previous document
00:24:30 um i i don't think i know the answer to that um i can't see i don't know what they are we would have had the same the same range of information available
00:24:42 the same range of information available on um all residents because it was adapted it was um extracted from the capital
00:24:48 capital um
00:24:48 um database
00:24:51 database do we not have an unredacted version of submitted well i don't try to ask the question without doing it i know if you need the information i imagine we've got it yeah yes i'm i'm i'm standing here i'm not sure the answer to
00:25:02 standing here i'm not sure the answer to that question no no um but but um let me try it this way do you remember they're being different kinds of spreadsheets somebody had the had the data in it some of which didn't
00:25:14 didn't um i don't specifically remember that but we would have had access to the same range of data um let's then turn to a different topic which is the return of the evacuated residents
00:25:25 residents uh let's go to your fifth statement please paragraph 56 where on page 11 you say um
00:25:34 um there just below halfway down the role of tmo was to facilitate residents moving back to offer support and signpost into support services where needed a team of 15 tmo staff including myself conducted a door knock of all
00:25:46 myself conducted a door knock of all properties in the walkways to check on residents and advise them of up-to-date information about services and to direct residents to support stroke counselling services where required a sheet was completed for each occupant noting key
00:25:58 completed for each occupant noting key issues the environmental services team at the tma collated this information now was this role assigned to the tma specifically by rbkc or was it a role that the tmo assumed voluntarily
00:26:10 that the tmo assumed voluntarily uh
00:26:12 uh returning residents or or going to visit them facilitating residents moving back in or
00:26:19 in or supporting scientists the decision to return residents was was made by by the council and then we um uh
00:26:30 they well we took the role in um leading on on visiting residents as a result of that how it came about it was all rbk decision to um
00:26:41 decision to um return residents yes but my question was a bit more a bit more focused perhaps i'll try to try it differently well you say the role of tma was to facilitate residents moving back was that a role that the tmo assumed
00:26:54 was that a role that the tmo assumed voluntarily or was it a role imposed upon politely perhaps by the council um upon tmo
00:27:06 i find it difficult to answer that question because um
00:27:12 probably because i'm thinking why you're asking me because um we we we were told that residents were moving back and then it was obviously clearly our role um to to be the first point of contact and
00:27:23 to be the first point of contact and communicate with those residents and um
00:27:27 and um you know that wasn't forced on us we we did that
00:27:30 did that willingly
00:27:33 uh all right um but i think what you're saying is that you were told by the by rbkc that the buildings were safe for them to move back into and then it was left to you to work out how to do it yes
00:27:44 left to you to work out how to do it yes is that the position that's it right let's go then to uh your sixth statement please page 16 paragraph 54 uh where you
00:27:56 uh where you um if we go to page 16 pair 54 top of the screen you say i was located at the tma's office in portobello responding to queries and waiting to be mobilized to knock on the doors of
00:28:07 mobilized to knock on the doors of residents returning to the walkways to offer support and see what cleaning and repairs were required i could only be mobilized once confirmation was received from the back that this had been authorized by gold group
00:28:18 authorized by gold group that now you that's correct is it you're waiting for gold to give the go ahead if we then go to your fifth statement then in light of that
00:28:27 that and go please to page 9 paragraph 45 you say there that you recall having on the 15th of june having discussions with stuart priestley from rbkz beck
00:28:38 priestley from rbkz beck and you say the bec who had advised that consideration was being given at that time to return residents evacuated in the surrounding areas of the tower i recall discussing the possible impact on
00:28:49 recall discussing the possible impact on residents if this went ahead advising that if residents returned home they would have no gas stroke boiler and consequently no hot water or cooking facilities as the surrounding areas ran off the towers heating stroke hot water
00:29:00 off the towers heating stroke hot water services we also needed to repair damaged doors where the police had forced entry and i suggested that returning residents should not be rushed back until we could ensure proper provision of services re-routing of
00:29:11 provision of services re-routing of refuse arrangements and cleaning of the area the door entry system also needed to be re-routed now i think it's right isn't it that you are sharing concerns that you had had
00:29:22 are sharing concerns that you had had about the return of evacuated residents yes with with them with stuart priestley of rbkc yes do you remember when on the 15th of june you had that conversation i thought it was
00:29:33 had that conversation i thought it was quite early in the morning right how did stewart priestly respond to your concern um i said in my statement i can't i can't actually remember what he said i thought he was going to take away
00:29:45 said i thought he was going to take away my concerns and and feed them into the back right i mean put it this way he didn't give you any reason to to think or did he that he wouldn't feed them into the bank and act on it no
00:29:58 into the bank and act on it no as far as you were aware was our bkc taking any steps to address these problems such as absence of hot water gas or was this simply left to the tmo to address um
00:30:10 simply left to the tmo to address um so it was left to us to address um initially all of those issues were and then um i think london gold became involved in some of
00:30:22 london gold became involved in some of those issues later on but initially yes now in
00:30:26 now in paragraph 48 if you go to the bottom of the page
00:30:30 the page you say at approximately 8 p.m on the 15th june i was contacted by the beck and asked to meet police inspector bean at the kensington leisure center to inspect the finger blocks
00:30:42 to inspect the finger blocks what was the purpose of that inspection do you remember um well it says in the rest of this paragraph to check if there are any um areas that needed boarding up before residents moved in that's how it was
00:30:53 residents moved in that's how it was presented to me right
00:30:56 right and who was it at the beck who told you or asked you to meet police i can't remember who asked me but they gave me the name and the contact details
00:31:07 gave me the name and the contact details and i think you say also that you were advised that on the inspection the intention of the gold group was that the finger block residents should be returned as soon as possible yes yes yes by gold group did you understand that to
00:31:18 by gold group did you understand that to mean rbkc gold um
00:31:23 um at this time yes yes you say at this time this is at 8 p.m on the 15th yes yeah right had anyone told you about what
00:31:35 right had anyone told you about what arrangements were being made with london local authority gold no i didn't have any awareness of that at this stage at all i don't think now you go on to say in paragraph 48 as
00:31:46 now you go on to say in paragraph 48 as i think you've already captured uh
00:31:50 uh at um
00:31:51 at um the very foot of the page as follows i repeated my concerns about it being premature due to the lack of gas stroke heating etc doors needing securing
00:32:03 etc doors needing securing fire exits from the 300 blocks provided access directly onto grenfell walk the area in front of the tower with direct views onto the tower and grenfell walk where there was still debris falling
00:32:16 where there was still debris falling um now that you say the 300 blocks what do you mean there so we looked at a picture of the map earlier up there yes the walkway so the 300s were then the
00:32:27 the walkway so the 300s were then the area nearest to the um to the tower so it's just parallel with grenfell walk i see so the what we call the finger blocks i think yes sorry so
00:32:40 blocks i think yes sorry so right
00:32:42 yeah so at the bottom of those nearest questions
00:32:45 questions um
00:32:46 um right and who did you repeat those concerns too um i called uh my manager sasha germans and in your view were those properties in a fit state for people to be living
00:32:58 in a fit state for people to be living in um i didn't go into the individual in the individual flats um i was concerned when i did the walk the the walk around that night that there was still water lying on some of the floors
00:33:11 still water lying on some of the floors where the fire brigade had run their um hoses through the block so i was concerned about any uh you know immediate need to to
00:33:19 to deal with that and to do some electric checks so i was concerned that there was a lot of work for us to do what about what about security doors broken into yeah i um i was i was concerned about
00:33:30 yeah i um i was i was concerned about the jaws being broken into in fact um because they you know when people are evacuated they were the vibe great and broke them open but i did have um
00:33:41 broke them open but i did have um my
00:33:42 my an rd representative with us came along on that walk about to make the the doors safe and he did work overnight to try and secure some of those doors that evening and rd is
00:33:53 those doors that evening and rd is repairs directly sorry yes um what did you tell sasha gevins um i repeated the concerns that um i had about um
00:34:02 about um you know the condition that we need to do the whole heating hot water the you know the um i knew the door entry wasn't operating how did she respond um i think she
00:34:14 how did she respond um i think she shared those concerns and then she in turn spoke to to laura about them laura johnson
00:34:20 johnson and as you say in the last sentence of this paragraph she told you that quotes laura said we had to go with the gold group decision that's right is it yes yes and uh
00:34:31 and uh did sasha jevons tell laura johnson about the concerns that you shared about the risks of returning residents coming back into the walkway properties i believe she made her aware of what the
00:34:43 believe she made her aware of what the issues were yes
00:34:47 now were you at the time [Music]
00:34:51 [Music] what was your view at the time about whether the council were engaging appropriately with the significant issues that you could see affecting returning evacuees coming back to the walkway properties
00:35:04 to the walkway properties um
00:35:06 um i think the discussion very quickly moved to you know how would we solve the problems how would we get on and um you know make residents as com comfortable as possible
00:35:17 comfortable as possible yes but
00:35:18 yes but my question was what was your view about whether the council was engaging in in that process well then engaging in helping us or engaging knowing about it um engaging in whether
00:35:31 knowing about it um engaging in whether it was appropriate to allow evacuees to return and given the problems that you can identify i think they've made the the decision and you know at this point in time they had a you know a huge
00:35:42 in time they had a you know a huge amount of people in in hotel accommodation in the middle of the summer
00:35:46 summer and i think they had some very difficult decisions to make about you know where all these people were going to go right so is it your evidence or is it your recollection that rbkc
00:35:57 or is it your recollection that rbkc sought to return evacuated residents as soon as possible despite the serious issues with the properties um we certainly um carried on and returned residents to the properties at this stage and that was because of the
00:36:09 stage and that was because of the lack of availability is this right of available
00:36:13 available emergency accommodation um well the council are best to answer that um i can't answer their decision but that that seemed to be
00:36:24 seemed to be the reason and also i think you know we thought that we could solve some of these problems you go on to paragraph 59 i think of your statement to page 17
00:36:39 to say after speaking with inspector charles bean i understood that a decision to allow residents to return had been made in principle by gold group by the evening of 15th of june 2017. however this was not formally
00:36:50 however this was not formally implemented until the following day when we received further instructions therefore whilst we later found out that some residents had begun to return by this point this was prior to authorization by gold group
00:37:02 authorization by gold group and then at 75 in your fifth statement if we can just jump to that if statement page 15 paragraph 75 you say
00:37:12 in the last sentence as regards residents being forced to move back to their homes tma were advised to implement the gold group decision did you disagree with that decision at the time
00:37:22 the time um
00:37:23 um i had concerns about the condition of the properties but i think i also understood that they had concerns about the ability to
00:37:35 they had concerns about the ability to to essentially rehouse you know potentially 845 people and the complexity of that so i think at this point i turned my attention to
00:37:46 this point i turned my attention to focus on you know what could i do to clean
00:37:48 clean clean the water what could i do to clean the properties and that and i'm i moved on to focusing on solving the other problems right and i think you say also that some of the residents had returned to the walkway properties before gold
00:38:00 to the walkway properties before gold had made its decision yeah and and in the door knocks we did find that some people said they wanted to remain there they preferred to be there than in hotel accommodation yes and i think it's
00:38:11 hotel accommodation yes and i think it's right isn't it that there was confusing information throughout the 15th coming from the back about whether or not walkways residents were being allowed back into their homes um
00:38:22 back into their homes um sorry on the 15th yes um
00:38:29 well i had to wait for a decision for for a while yes that's right let's go to tm01035610
00:38:51 this is a document headed draft 19 straight 9 summary of actions taken by neighborhood team teresa brown wednesday 14th of june i think this is a document you drafted
00:39:02 i think this is a document you drafted is it oh yeah that's right yes and after the fire sometime after the fire yes yes
00:39:08 yes yes am i right that it was drafted by you on the 19th of september is that does that is that what the 19th straight nine um
00:39:18 that feels quite late to have um drafted it but um
00:39:22 it but um possibly at any rate it's not a contemporaneous doc no definitely not no now let's go to page five in it please penultimate paragraph on page five it says confusing info from the back
00:39:35 it says confusing info from the back throughout the day about when the finger blocks residents were being allowed back into their homes a team was available in the office all pm to be mobilized to go on site and
00:39:46 pm to be mobilized to go on site and knock on the doors of residents returning to the finger blocks to offer support and see what cleaning straight repairs were required once confirmation was received from the back and then you go on at 8 pm
00:39:57 from the back and then you go on at 8 pm i was telephoned uh by rebecca blank from the back and advised to meet police inspector charles phil bean on site so that puts it on on the 15th of june yes yes that's
00:40:11 on the 15th of june yes yes that's correct is it so looking at this document your reflection a few weeks or perhaps months after the fire was that there was confusing information from the back throughout the
00:40:22 information from the back throughout the day
00:40:23 day about when the finger block residents were being allowed back into their homes yes as as i'd said in my previous evidence you know something we've covered earlier is that you know i had staff ready to go to the to the finger
00:40:35 staff ready to go to the to the finger blocks earlier on in the day um but we didn't get permission that day we
00:40:40 we you know the the first contact had really was around this 8 p.m and then we that decision had been made but we didn't
00:40:48 didn't we weren't authorized to go until the next day yes now we've had evidence from a number of evacuated residents who didn't know whether they could return home or what they should do and indeed some say that they tried to
00:40:59 and indeed some say that they tried to go home but were turned away first did you know that i'm i i have um we obviously picked that up from the west way that some people had um tried to go home and had um
00:41:11 had um tried to go home and had um had been um told that they couldn't um and i think you know that was a pattern that happened over a few days there was misinformation sometimes from the police about whether people could go
00:41:22 about whether people could go through the cordon or not does that
00:41:26 does that and was that confusion because of confusing information being communicated to them about when they could go home well i thought that you know the decisions were being made by the council not by ourselves in terms of who was who
00:41:38 not by ourselves in terms of who was who could return when at what time so i assumed that the council you know within the back the bec were obviously involved in these discussions and through gold
00:41:49 in these discussions and through gold group were informing other people of you know the police in particular about what was happening at what stage i wasn't involved in the decision making but that's my assumption that they you know they would have told the police
00:42:01 you know they would have told the police what was happening right i mean looking at this now it suggests that there was conflicting information all day about timing when the bloc the finger block residents could go back
00:42:13 finger block residents could go back is that right yes i think i think so i mean yes that's what my evidence here doesn't yes it doesn't um change in my statement it's um i was waiting for the
00:42:24 it's um i was waiting for the instruction it wasn't clear right
00:42:29 right and just to be clear now was it not clear that they couldn't get that they could or couldn't go back or just they could go back but the timing was uncertain
00:42:37 uncertain um
00:42:38 um at this stage um until 8 pm i didn't know that they could go back officially sorry that took us a while didn't i'm sorry um i didn't know till 8 o'clock right i see and you say you had a staff
00:42:51 right i see and you say you had a staff uh a team of staff on standby all day to do a door knock did you you or your team actually do any door knocks on the 15th of june no because we weren't allowed in the cordon until we were given permission by the you know the local
00:43:03 permission by the you know the local authorities to do that we weren't allowed through right so i had had you know kieran and nicola had gone to sight in the morning but they weren't allowed through the corner
00:43:12 corner and i think you tell us in your uh fifth statement of paragraph 51 that you left sight about 10 30 or 11 o'clock on the 15th of june yes yes turning then to the 16th of june
00:43:25 turning then to the 16th of june you say in your fifth statement paragraph 54 and no need to turn it up the decision to allow residents to return to tread gold house was made at 12 30 p.m on the 16th of
00:43:36 was made at 12 30 p.m on the 16th of june yes
00:43:37 june yes yes yeah
00:43:39 yes yeah yes and shortly after that it's right i think isn't it the decision was made that residents in barron walk tested and walk and hearst way walk except numbers 501 to 562 were were
00:43:51 except numbers 501 to 562 were were allowed to return home yes that was the instruction from the back yeah that was the instruction from the back right do you remember who it was in the back who was giving that instruction there was an email um
00:44:02 there was an email um around that was that um
00:44:05 um somebody oliver let's look at who may see it let's look at it uh tmo.00894201
00:44:14 and this might be the email you're referring to and if it isn't please correct me
00:44:21 two tm0089420 one
00:44:32 and if you look at the very foot of the page
00:44:36 page one there's an email from the back at 12 45 to amanda johnson
00:44:42 in our bkc that appears to be passed on somehow to kieran singh because he attaches it i oh she sends it to you i think in fact
00:44:53 i oh she sends it to you i think in fact yeah she does uh as you can see from the email above and then you send it presumably to kiran singh uh but the message itself at the foot of one says hello
00:45:01 hello and then over to the page top of page two this is a message from the layla on site at 12 21 residents of barrington walk tested to walk herstory walk accept numbers 501 to
00:45:12 walk herstory walk accept numbers 501 to 562 tread gold street are able to return to their properties there are currently issues with gas and electricity supplies but this is being looked into thank you oliver turner is that the email you were
00:45:23 oliver turner is that the email you were thinking about now you say in your fifth statement page 56 page 11 nearly to see it that you that following the gold group decision you organized 11 tmo officers to start a
00:45:36 you organized 11 tmo officers to start a ring round of tenants telling that they could go home updating them on a sit on the situation with heating and hot water and advising them that they were washing facilities out the west way is that that
00:45:47 facilities out the west way is that that correct yes and i think fit also a team of 15 staff to do the door knock that we've you've already told us about yes what specific information and support were you providing
00:45:58 providing in the
00:45:59 in the ring round exercise so we were telling them that they could get to and that they could go home and we were telling them that we were dealing with the issue of heating and
00:46:10 dealing with the issue of heating and hot water
00:46:12 hot water um uh
00:46:14 um uh yeah at that stage yes we were informing them of what the situation was and during the course of the next few days we gave them more information about that right and during
00:46:25 information about that right and during the door knock exercise which was a different exercise what specific information and support were your team offering so so we were we were checking on their welfare um referring people
00:46:36 on their welfare um referring people into support services where they needed one we were asking if they needed any repairs if there was any um
00:46:44 um cleaning that was needed to be done in their properties there if there was um
00:46:50 um any debris on their balconies also
00:46:54 also we were doing electric checks during this period of time um because i'd asked rd to do that after we'd been aware about the water issues um so we would have done that in properties as well and we were also
00:47:07 properties as well and we were also repairing doors at this stage so as i said we had our audi with us on the door knocks so we were identifying who um who needed um a door repaired
00:47:19 repaired and
00:47:20 and were door knocks also undertaken for residents of tread gold house yes um a separate um there was a separate team sent to ted tread gold house
00:47:31 gold house if we go to your sixth statement please page 20 paragraph 69
00:47:46 you say a door knock sheet was completed for each resident noting key issues found these were then provided to the environmental services team who i believe collated them into a spreadsheet
00:47:57 spreadsheet and i think you've given us some examples of this let me just show you one or two uh
00:48:03 uh first
00:48:04 first tmo double zero eight nine one two five
00:48:10 tmo double zero eight nine four one two five
00:48:15 eight eight nine four one two five
00:48:31 and this one says 16th june 17 recorded name hearst way address there's a name there an individual's name repair issues no hot water recorded
00:48:42 name repair issues no hot water recorded you see that yeah uh is it when was the template created do you know i don't know precisely but obviously before we did those um was it one you already had or was it
00:48:54 was it one you already had or was it created i think it was created by the um team leaders who had some servers during you know um for the doorknob right
00:49:04 and and this is an example of residents being recorded with no hot water no i think recorded here means the same as it did on the other list said it's been recorded and put on there
00:49:16 been recorded and put on there on the spreadsheet right
00:49:19 right now if we go to tm00894126
00:49:29 this is
00:49:33 i think is this right an example of someone whose name was not on the list if you look halfway down the page mrs jones baron walk name not on list what is the list is that is that the
00:49:45 what is the list is that is that the downloaded spreadsheet um i suspect so yes right and i think we can find another one of where the resident isn't at home is tmo double zero eight nine four one two
00:49:56 double zero eight nine four one two eight
00:50:01 and there's no address there it just says test maybe that's a number test it and walk
00:50:07 and walk yes i think no answer no answer
00:50:11 no answer uh
00:50:12 uh is that an example of a resident being knocked on but no no not that yeah right now they all say at the top 1606 17 recorded what does that
00:50:23 the top 1606 17 recorded what does that mean
00:50:26 mean um so that's 16th of june 17. yes
00:50:31 17. yes and recorded does that mean taken into a spreadsheet yes and how was the information from these notes spread into this
00:50:37 this fed into the spreadsheets we've looked at um
00:50:40 at um so
00:50:41 so kieran and his evidence gives gives the best detail on that so um the officers who who allocated those sets of properties would upload their information into the
00:50:53 would upload their information into the spreadsheet and that spreadsheet was collated and kept centrally and updated during this round of walk following this round of walk-arounds and on the 19th and 20th
00:51:04 walk-arounds and on the 19th and 20th and you know going on as we continued our doorknobs same process right i mean there looks from what you've been telling us to have been a number of different ways of collating information
00:51:16 collating information about evacuated residents did you have concerns at the time about whether this information was was being properly centralized and was accurate
00:51:27 and was accurate um i think there was a process for it i think kieran's very clear in his statement the process um and officers seem to have followed that process
00:51:38 i'm sorry i think you identified a number of properties with balconies overlooking grenfell tower and decided that it wouldn't be appropriate for those residents to return is that right yes that's correct they
00:51:49 is that right yes that's correct they were really really in close proximity to to the um tower and they could obviously see all of the lfb activity and we just didn't think it was appropriate for those people to return right and how
00:52:00 those people to return right and how many properties properties did that relate to um they're all recorded in our emails going forward i think off the top of my head about about seven maybe i sorry i can't remember the numbers
00:52:12 i sorry i can't remember the numbers i've seen the emails loads but can't remember the numbers and you say you organized a further ring round of those residents telling them not to go home but to go to the west way yes that's right we identified it and then and then you know focused on
00:52:25 and then and then you know focused on calling them did you come across a situation where one of the residents wasn't contactable so that you couldn't tell them not to go home but to go to the west way instead um well if we did on that day we would have tried again
00:52:36 on that day we would have tried again another day i do know that did any of them tell you that distressing or not they wanted to go back home and be in their own homes rather than staying in temporary economy i do believe that there are one where's one family that i remember yes and what
00:52:49 one family that i remember yes and what happened to them um would you allow them to go back yes you know we wouldn't have stopped somebody if that's what they wanted to do it was more about you know trying to be thoughtful not to
00:53:00 you know trying to be thoughtful not to be restrictive right
00:53:05 now you if we go please to your fifth statement please paragraph 58 on page 12.
00:53:14 um you say there at the top of the page a text burst was sent to all residents from barron walk tread gold walk and hurstway asking them to return home and advising support was
00:53:25 to return home and advising support was available at the west way and you produce it at tb20 yeah
00:53:31 yeah um
00:53:32 um just before i show it to you um you told us that some residents weren't supposed to return home how did you make sure that those residents didn't get this text burst
00:53:44 residents didn't get this text burst uh
00:53:46 i don't know i didn't send them text bursts i wasn't involved in it i don't know how they isolated those people right
00:53:52 right and then if we look at tb20 which you refer to as an exhibit it's a tmo double zero eight six nine nine four nine
00:54:01 subject text burst message for review we have been made aware that you can return to your home we are sorry you may not have a hot water or gas supply and say may choose to continue to stay with with friends or
00:54:12 to continue to stay with with friends or family or in the resource center thank you for your patience while we work to reinstate services who drafted that textbook
00:54:23 i'm not sure who drafted it but i know that um sasha evans was involved in the final version did you see it before it went uh
00:54:34 i can't i can't remember if i did or not you tell us i think in paragraph 75 of your sixth statement that the resource center referred to here is a reference to the westway center yes yes yeah
00:54:47 to the westway center yes yes yeah how are residents supposed to know that resource center was the west way um
00:54:54 um i i don't know but that won't have been the only method that we communicated with residents to residents through why not say westway center and give the details the address the phone number so
00:55:06 details the address the phone number so we're very restricted on text messaging on which um you know how many characters you can have but we could have said western instead of the other word but
00:55:18 right i mean is was that the problem that it was a technical limitation on how much information you could put in the textbook yes that's that's always the case why and exactly why they weren't always
00:55:30 weren't always appropriate to use because it was quite difficult to communicate messages and small
00:55:35 small and what provision was made for those people who may not have had access to their mobile phones or for whom the tmo had in incorrect numbers so that they didn't see the text burst so we were doing visits as well um and i
00:55:48 so we were doing visits as well um and i believe also that um the council um definitely seen examples of this that they called round people in um hotels and told them to go back to tread gold so
00:56:00 told them to go back to tread gold so there were other ways in which people were communicating right is it right that the text burst on the 16th of june was the first time that this facility had been
00:56:11 first time that this facility had been used by the tmo to communicate with residents i believe so yes and why is consideration not given earlier to using it because i think we we try to communicate
00:56:24 because i think we we try to communicate um personally you know um which we felt would be more appropriate than sending a you know with general a general text to people given the circumstances
00:56:35 people given the circumstances can we go to tm0086 9939 next
00:56:51 and what i'm showing you here is an email from kieran sing to robert shaw at rbkc on this time the 17th of june of 2017 at 12 41
00:57:02 41 uh outlining the activities that have taken place on the 16th of june he says rob this may help our updated contact list for the finger blocks tread gold house and bramley house bramley is
00:57:13 gold house and bramley house bramley is no longer an issue all are back is that right that by 12 41 on the 17th of june that was the saturday all were back that's he's relating to bramley
00:57:24 back that's he's relating to bramley he's talking about bramley though bramley oh i see all the back at bramley yeah
00:57:28 yeah uh and then he goes on to say we did a text burst to all around 4 pm yesterday which says it is safe to return and support is still available from westway we also contacted those individual properties on my previous email to
00:57:40 properties on my previous email to advise them it was not safe for them to return and i believe those flats were offered alternative accommodation until monday this was due to their balconies directly facing the tower and being very close to the tower so they could see any
00:57:51 close to the tower so they could see any activity happening inside the tower by nfb etc
00:57:55 nfb etc um
00:57:57 um were you aware of offers of alternative accommodation only being made available to those residents up until the monday following the fire so the 19th um
00:58:11 i suppose um i must have been if if kieran knew about it i suppose i did know that but um he doesn't
00:58:21 i'm not i'm not entirely sure because obviously you know all the allocation of temporary accommodation was by the um made by the council so the details of that i'm not entirely unsure of right
00:58:32 that i'm not entirely unsure of right and in the next paragraph he says there are a number of properties at tread gold where we have replaced locked stroke doors and who we have been unable to contact to pass over the keys we have people on site now to distribute these but i believe they will be going into
00:58:44 but i believe they will be going into the west way to provide an update and to see if we can keep these centrally so there so everyone knows where to go to collect them rather than ringing around various people
00:58:55 various people is it is it right that some residents therefore couldn't access their homes until they had this information because they wouldn't have had keys to get in because the locks have been changed
00:59:06 because the locks have been changed so
00:59:06 so we made arrangements for these keys to be held somewhere we um did an update to our customer service center for anybody phoning in
00:59:17 phoning in to be told where they were exactly um that messaging was repeated onto our out of hours contractor as well um and people at the west way knew the position and where to collect the keys
00:59:28 position and where to collect the keys we made sure that those arrangements were in place over the weekend right now let's look at the update tell me if this is what you're referring to uh this is a tmo double zero eight six nine nine four six
00:59:40 let's just see this is an email from olivia olivia hutchinson on the 16th of june at 1845 in the evening on that day to supervisors of pinnacle and customer
00:59:51 to supervisors of pinnacle and customer services
00:59:53 services uh copied
00:59:54 uh copied to among other people you and kieran singh subject kctmo handover for the weekend this is this is of course friday evening now
01:00:04 now grenfell tower and surrounding areas hi team here is an update for tonight's shift the main focus today was helping residents who were displaced after the fire back home please note the following
01:00:15 fire back home please note the following updates for these blocks and there they there is the the set of information all are allowed to return to hearst way apart from three addresses uh all are allowed to return to testerton apart from five addresses
01:00:28 testerton apart from five addresses and everyone back to barrenton grenfell walk not allowed to return his location is so near to the tower and then tread gold allowed to return but with emergency lock changes yes you
01:00:39 but with emergency lock changes yes you see that yes what arrangements were in place for the properties that were not safe for return or for those with emergency law changes so that those safe not to return were the people we just
01:00:50 not to return were the people we just talked about on grenfell um sorry on the balconies so we'd already communicated with them um and then um
01:01:02 um and then um sorry
01:01:03 sorry can you tell me your question again yes you've dealt with those but what about those who were locked out was there a system for giving getting information to them so that they knew where to pick up their keys the new keys
01:01:14 their keys the new keys um
01:01:16 um so
01:01:17 so the rest of this emails explains the arrangement that was made so i think we would have tried to call them where we could
01:01:24 could and we also wanted our out-of-house contractor to to know the arrangements should any of the residents call directly into this customer service centre
01:01:36 and how was the information need that was needed by grenfell walk residents communicated to them that they weren't allowed to return and had to go to the
01:01:48 had to go to the westway center um
01:01:52 um well it would have been communicated by by ours through rest centers um possibly by the council if they'd house people by by then or if they come into the rest centers during the day and
01:02:04 the rest centers during the day and seeing the council through phone arounds all of the methods that we've discussed earlier is what we would have been trying at this the
01:02:14 the during these days turning then to the period 17th to the 20th of june i think it's right that you continued with your actions relating to the return of residents to their homes and communicating requests for
01:02:26 and communicating requests for information on to the council yes yes that's right and a number of other things yes can we go then to uh tmo tm00869948
01:02:36 this is an email that you exhibit to your fifth statement paragraph 74 and uh it's from councillor blakeman sent at 6 57 in the morning on the 19th of june
01:02:48 of june that's the monday after the fire and
01:02:54 it sent to a number as you can see a number of rbkc councillors and staff and it says this can someone please advise urgently and take action on the situation of the evacuees who have been
01:03:05 situation of the evacuees who have been forced to move back to their entirely unsuitable and probably unsafe homes at barrington walk and testerton walk the walkway doors are being left open and people are getting in and trying to rob the homes please please end this chaos
01:03:17 the homes please please end this chaos and at least let the ward councillors know who we are supposed to contact on all the issues residents are bringing to us
01:03:24 us now you've already told us about the concerns that you had had about the return of evacuated residents earlier in the week by the 19th of june which as i say was the monday after the fire did you share
01:03:36 monday after the fire did you share councillor blakeman's concerns about evacuees being forced to move back to as she put it entirely unsuitable homes um so
01:03:45 so on part of the work that i did the first one of the first things i did on the walk around on the 16th was to make sure that there were offices police officers placed on what i call the blue dot map
01:03:57 placed on what i call the blue dot map which is the map that we were all looking at earlier so i made sure that there because i knew the door entry system wasn't working so i arranged for police officers to be placed i think it's in nine locations um
01:04:10 placed i think it's in nine locations um which are basically the entrances to all of those
01:04:14 of those walkway blocks and at the end going on to grenfell tower so you know i'd recognize that this is an issue and i've tried to solve it by making sure that there was a police presence there to
01:04:25 there was a police presence there to stop people running through to protect the properties um so in terms of security i i didn't think this was an issue or
01:04:36 i i didn't think this was an issue or we'd done everything we could at that stage too
01:04:38 stage too to try and protect the blocks now as you can see from the heading the email goes to a number of councillors uh including the uh the leader of the
01:04:49 uh including the uh the leader of the council the council but also to uh
01:04:57 yes to leader of the council and and it says subject message from mr holgate it doesn't come to the tmo but it does come to the tmo by forwarding if we go please to
01:05:08 by forwarding if we go please to tmo double zero eight six nine nine eight eight
01:05:16 and you could see that the bec forwards this email onto you a little uh later that morning not much later that morning 19th of june 2017 copy to nicholas holgate
01:05:29 copy to nicholas holgate and it says de teresa and robert please see email below originally from councillor blakeman we were aware that police were having issues with residents gaining access to the safety cordon but not that there were issues with thefts
01:05:40 not that there were issues with thefts from residential premises please consider for urgent action and copy the back into your response to the counsellor kind regards karen crook now a number of questions about that first is it correct that the bec
01:05:51 first is it correct that the bec essentially delegated these issues about evacuated residence properties to you the tmo yes yes and in your view who had or your understanding at the
01:06:02 who had or your understanding at the time who had overall responsibility for the emergency response in respect of evacuated residents from the walkways was it the tmo or was it the council no we had sort of operational um ability to
01:06:15 we had sort of operational um ability to you know do the best we could within the the walkways but we certainly weren't made um so we certainly weren't in control of the decision-making about what was happening within right
01:06:27 what was happening within right you know it was very much still under the control of the council right but in operational terms would it be right to say that in the days following the fire the tmo were just left to get on with it by the council in respect of the needs
01:06:38 by the council in respect of the needs of evacuated residents um we were certainly working on all the solutions we could to try and make people as as comfortable as pos as possible but the council um particularly
01:06:50 possible but the council um particularly you know
01:06:51 you know amanda johnson and laura johnson they knew exactly what we were doing what the issues were and how we were trying to address them and later on there was some help with some of the specific issues but i'm sure
01:07:03 some of the specific issues but i'm sure we've come to that well amanda johnson and laura johnson knew exactly what you were doing but were they providing you was the council providing you the tma with any actual support any actual resources um not not
01:07:17 support any actual resources um not not at this not at this stage no
01:07:22 did you receive any actual support from the tmo executive team and the tmo leadership in relation to uh provisioning for the needs of evacuated residents and facilitating
01:07:33 evacuated residents and facilitating their return home um i yes i received support from my manager who's part of the executive team um you know i was constantly updating
01:07:44 um you know i was constantly updating her and and the executive team and what in what we were doing um so
01:07:50 so yes and i was working with my colleagues across the council particularly sorry across the tmo particularly um my colleague from rd graham webb at this stage on and who was supporting us in
01:08:01 stage on and who was supporting us in all the repairs issues and our assets team in um were helping with the the door entry issues and boiler issues
01:08:15 what support did you get from your manager
01:08:18 manager you were constantly updating her but what was she helping you with um this is sasha evans i think yes um i mean the uh at this stage not at this stage
01:08:31 uh [Music]
01:08:33 [Music] i mean she was she was constantly under the end of the sorry on the end of the phone so that i could talk to her about any concerns i have you could see earlier on when i was concerned when i was in the walkways i
01:08:44 concerned when i was in the walkways i called her she you know she listened to the issues and and dealt with them now just two more questions before i suggest a break to the chairman but when
01:08:55 suggest a break to the chairman but when when john baradel of london local authority gold took over
01:09:00 took over the response to the fire on the afternoon of the 16th of june the friday afternoon as is well recorded that he did at that time who did you understand to have
01:09:12 time who did you understand to have overall responsibility in respect of evacuated residents was it the london gold response team or was it still the council at this stage up oh
01:09:23 stage up oh um
01:09:26 i'm not sure i knew that on the friday i don't know if i knew that are you aware or were you aware at the time of london gold providing any support to you the tmo in
01:09:38 providing any support to you the tmo in respect of evacuated residents in the seven days or five days perhaps from the 16th of june after the fire i think um the only the only way i recall that their involvement
01:09:51 only way i recall that their involvement at this stage was um in terms of voids um identifying any void properties and my colleague graham led on on that liaising with london gold on that matter
01:10:02 liaising with london gold on that matter but i wasn't involved in that it's copied in but i didn't lead on it very well mr chairman is now a convenient moment for the break yes thank you very much well we'll take the afternoon break now mr brown will come
01:10:14 afternoon break now mr brown will come back at half past three please and as before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out thank you thank you very much
01:10:28 thank you very much harvard
01:27:35 would you ask ms brown to come in please okay
01:27:51 right mr ready to carry on yes good thank you very much yes yes mr joe just a couple of communications questions technical though they may be the first is text burst you said there
01:28:02 the first is text burst you said there was a character limit on the number of characters you could put into a text burst was any thought given to sending two text bursts one with one part of the information and the second one with more information
01:28:13 more information um i'm sure that could have been a possibility i wasn't involved in the one of the things i wasn't involved is the textbook messaging and the context of that um
01:28:24 and the context of that um i think yeah partly because yeah so i don't know now the whatsapp group you referred to first do you remember when it was set up who was on it um so it was the text burst was um set
01:28:36 um so it was the text burst was um set up with all of my main um heads of service team leaders and uh some other people who are on the ground on the day and do you know why well
01:28:49 and do you know why well was any thought given to including any people from rbkc on it such as the beck no because it was really about our internal communication and moving people around from the rest centre it's about us
01:28:59 us organizing our staff so communicating messages um and information that we needed to share with with residents right
01:29:11 right why keep that from rbkc why not bring them in because a lot of the information so
01:29:16 so um
01:29:17 um it was because it was about our organization of our staff so i didn't need to be involved in that in terms of the messaging the messaging that we were communicating via whatsapp was probably coming from the council anyway so
01:29:29 coming from the council anyway so there's no need to re reloop them into the messaging around rest centers closing and things like
01:29:36 like that now coming back to uh the 19th of june it's right i think that you and your team members took part in a second door knocking exercise on the 19th for monday yes that's correct uh and if you
01:29:49 monday yes that's correct uh and if you go to your fifth statement please page 13 paragraph 69 you say that that was to see if more residents had returned we just go to that yes
01:29:59 yes fifth statement page 13 para 69
01:30:04 you say um to see if more residents had returned and giving advice and checking if anyone needed repairs now is it right that a number of residents had still not returned home even as late as the 19th of june yes i
01:30:17 even as late as the 19th of june yes i think that's correct and what was keeping them away um
01:30:23 um well i i don't know um
01:30:27 it would have been their decision at this stage whether they um came home or not we had been calling them and visiting them somewhere in hotels so they would have
01:30:38 somewhere in hotels so they would have you know been rehoused would have been their choice
01:30:43 right if we turn the page to page 14 please paragraph 72 you say there national grid were on site and we did a door knock with them offering temporary
01:30:54 door knock with them offering temporary cooking facilities for for residents who did not have access to gas is that the same door knocking exercise that you just told us about or was there a third door knocking exercise with
01:31:05 a third door knocking exercise with national grid oh there were lots of different door exercises so there was one
01:31:09 one there was one with national grid to provide
01:31:12 provide cooking it's temporary cooking facilities so that's you know little little plates and then there was several um
01:31:23 several um several trips needed to several communications with residents and visits to the properties to deal with reinstating gas mains so the
01:31:34 the they wanted to make sure that um the gas was turned off in properties before they turned the gas on and then after they turned the gas on they wanted to check that everything was okay in the property so we had to make arrangements with
01:31:46 so we had to make arrangements with residents to um get them either to the property or there um we had to access those properties if we couldn't so
01:31:54 so just to understand part of that last answer was the do you call them little plates they're little hot little electric plates yeah cooking for cooking yeah and they were they were delivered um
01:32:05 um in the first couple of days so before the monday um
01:32:09 um cooking facilities were made available to residents in the walkways where we could get hold of them the the issue with the gas connection more longer term
01:32:20 with the gas connection more longer term was dealt with on the 20th and 21st of june because i remember being on site again for that and i think washing facilities for those residents were also available at the west way yes yeah so we'd communicated
01:32:33 west way yes yeah so we'd communicated that
01:32:33 that very early on that westway was the place to go for um washing facilities that have been one in in our first communications were the facilities
01:32:44 first communications were the facilities at the west way enough for the numbers of residents who were expected to need them for washing um
01:32:50 um i don't think yes i mean i i don't know they were what we had available i'm sure residents were using other other sources and other means as well and if you turn please to page 15 of
01:33:02 and if you turn please to page 15 of this statement paragraph 78 you say there that on the 20th of june you continued doorknocks and you say you did further welfare checks to establish if any returning resident
01:33:14 establish if any returning resident required any additional support and to establish those who had returned is it right to say that by 20th of june some residents had still not returned to their properties and now the tuesday yeah so the seventh day after the fire
01:33:27 yeah so the seventh day after the fire that's correct and in the next paragraph paragraph 79 at the foot of your screen you say i recall we received some reports from residents at the west way that the police
01:33:36 police have been turning away residents returning to the walkways i saw confirmation from rbkc that there had been no change in the position of people moving back to the walkways and i emailed the beg clarifying the list of
01:33:47 emailed the beg clarifying the list of residents who could and could not return home
01:33:51 home do you know why the police were preventing residents from returning to their homes despite advice being given before that that they could go back no i don't i don't know this this happened a couple of times as
01:34:03 this this happened a couple of times as i mentioned earlier this morning i i don't know why but when i was aware of it i did what i could to to communicate the issue back to the back and hopefully to the police
01:34:14 to the police now in the uh in the paragraph at the foot of the this same page paragraph 83 you refer to an email
01:34:28 sent from robert black to nicholas holgate
01:34:31 holgate that you're copied into of tb 42 let's go to that it's a tmo double zero eight six nine nine two seven
01:34:42 uh and uh there it is it timed 1101 on the 20th of june 2017. uh nicholas key points for the meeting and if you look at item 4
01:34:53 and if you look at item 4 it says
01:34:54 it says finder should be finger blocks concern being raised by councillor judith blakeman jb and police who seem to be saying it is at your own risk which is not helpful jb asking for a
01:35:06 which is not helpful jb asking for a copy of risk assessment which agreed this
01:35:09 this residents coming back from the homes to westway because of mixed messages were you aware that police were telling residents that if they returned to their properties it was at their own personal
01:35:20 properties it was at their own personal risk
01:35:21 risk um
01:35:23 um no
01:35:24 no it wasn't helpful communication right we've seen the reference there to judith blakeman asking for a copy of the risk assessment as far as you were aware or knew had a
01:35:35 as far as you were aware or knew had a risk assessment been completed before evacuated residents were advised to return home um i don't know as i said before that was um a gold group decision i i um
01:35:46 i i um i don't know the detail of what was considered right
01:35:52 do you recall any discussion or any thought being given to having a risk assessment um
01:36:00 um no not not at this stage no would it be normal to have a risk assessment where you had a mass evacuation for for example a gas leak or a structural collapse of a building
01:36:12 collapse of a building um that that would have been our bk's the um role to look at that before they made the decision but
01:36:19 but do we take it from your evidence that so far as you're concerned you never heard about one being done i don't know no right
01:36:27 right now we've seen the reference there to residents coming back from the homes to westway because of mixed messages were you aware of residents coming coming home again and then going back to the west way because they were receiving mixed messages so as i've said
01:36:40 receiving mixed messages so as i've said i did i did come across um that issue a couple of times and where i did i
01:36:48 did i i you know took the appropriate action to raise that with the people who needed to be made aware of it can we go back to your fifth statement please page 15 now and go to paragraph 79
01:37:01 and at the foot of the page there in the um
01:37:05 um penultimate sentence or put ultimate line second sentence you say i sought confirmation from rbkc that there had been no change in the position of people moving back to the walkways and i emailed the bet clarifying the list of
01:37:16 emailed the bet clarifying the list of residents who could and could not return home
01:37:19 home i advise that there appeared to be confusion with residents saying that they had been turned away from their blocks by the police and i thought it was worth reiterating the position so that this could be this could be passed to the police
01:37:33 now did you reiterate the position because you didn't think rbkc or the police were quite clear enough in their own minds about the return of evacuated residents well i didn't think the police were quite clear enough and i
01:37:44 the police were quite clear enough and i think it was an issue of change of shifts and communication of information i thought
01:37:49 i thought yeah
01:37:52 right and what did you expect the police to do
01:37:56 well i expected them to be informed of what the
01:38:00 what the messaging should be and for them to be you know continually repeating the same messaging that we all were did you take the problem up with rbkc
01:38:11 did you take the problem up with rbkc um
01:38:12 um well rbkcr the beck or
01:38:15 or where the were they the back at this time but
01:38:19 time but i i communicated it through the back it was like did you take them to task did you
01:38:24 you tell the back that they had been or they were responsible for producing mixed messages um i sent them an email i sent them the details i told them what i thought
01:38:35 details i told them what i thought should be happening and asked them to communicate so i think that was clear enough right well let's see i think uh if we go please to um uh tm00869936
01:38:48 i mean could i just add that they were making the decisions about about these things so you know it seemed strange that they were not understanding them yes they were making the decisions but
01:38:59 yes they were making the decisions but you were trying to manage it on an operational basis so any problems that you had to handle as a result of their decisions you were free to take up with them there
01:39:10 take up with them there yes
01:39:11 yes yes yes
01:39:12 yes yes let's look at this email that's now on the screen this is from uh you
01:39:18 uh you uh to rob shaw at rbkc 20th of june 1403. hi rob can you please send us a list of residents that you've rehoused from grenfell and the finger blocks and where they've been placed we can then cross-reference it with our own records
01:39:31 cross-reference it with our own records now by rehouse there did you mean provided with emergency accommodation yes that's right and was the purpose of this exercise so that you could identify any residents that have not yet been accommodated and have not yet returned
01:39:42 accommodated and have not yet returned to their own homes yeah this is um how i described earlier as continuing to look at those lists to make sure that um you know they were up to date and we had you know people accounted for
01:39:53 accounted for knew where they were and let's go then to tm0100 35589 [Music]
01:40:02 which is a long document but if we go to page 17 in it this is an email uh from you uh to rob shaw of rbkc at 1403
01:40:13 uh to rob shaw of rbkc at 1403 uh on the uh on the 20th of june it's at the foot of your screen copy to cure and sing and
01:40:22 and subject list of residents that you've rehoused and if we turn the page please to page 18
01:40:30 you you say hi rob can you please send us a list of residents and it's the email we saw before but then if we go back please to his reply on page 17 you can see what he says he says hello
01:40:43 you can see what he says he says hello teresa yes mandy gave me the call earlier a call earlier we will get this to you asap as we are reconciling it now kieran can you confirm that the detect that i think that should be detective
01:40:55 that i think that should be detective sergeant brian jones is genuine is he known has he been checked out if so i can send the same list to him uh
01:41:02 uh and then if you go up the page please to
01:41:08 to to the next page page 16
01:41:13 halfway down mandy warrior responds to robert shaw the next day 20th of june at 10 59. hi rob i'm sorry to harass you as i know you are extremely busy the police are looking for the temporary
01:41:24 are looking for the temporary accommodation list grenfell to check the police missing list as two people yesterday were located in a hotel was it the case at that point so 20th of june
01:41:36 20th of june that rbkc did not have a list of um of available well a readily available list available to them of residents who had been accommodated as at the 20th of
01:41:47 had been accommodated as at the 20th of june
01:41:49 june so
01:41:50 so they would have had a list of people that they had accommodated we're just trying to cross-reference it with our lists
01:41:59 lists yes i did i understand that but did did rbkc have a readily available list that they could look at so that they could know who and who hadn't been accommodated by them by by
01:42:11 accommodated by them by by you or them we wouldn't have accommodated anybody the the
01:42:15 the the you know temporary rehousing was all done by rbkc
01:42:20 well uh all right but but temporary accommodation could include temporary accommodation at the west way of evacuate evacuees from the finger blocks no yes so uh well let me let me ask you
01:42:32 no yes so uh well let me let me ask you was it your understanding that this subject was only about temporary accommodation of those from grenfell tower well this particular thing from mandy is
01:42:43 well this particular thing from mandy is about grenfell tower um
01:42:48 what it appears to be yes i mean my question really is let me see if i can cut through this my question really is as at the 20th of june
01:42:56 june to your knowledge did the council have a list of those people from the finger blocks
01:43:01 blocks who hadn't returned home yet but were still in temporary accommodation i'm pretty sure that they will have i can't remember what date it was sent
01:43:13 can't remember what date it was sent but we were continually liaising with them we definitely sent them a list on the 23rd of um grenfell residents that we'd cross-referenced i
01:43:24 residents that we'd cross-referenced i can't remember the dates of the last list for the finger blocks but we kept them up to date regularly with who had returned or not did they want their own did they want your lists in relation to evacuated properties so that they themselves could identify and refer
01:43:38 themselves could identify and refer so that they would know who needed emergency accommodation um they definitely had our lists right for that purpose is that right um well that was the reason why we were sending them so that we could be coordinated between um amanda and
01:43:50 coordinated between um amanda and laura's section and and our department our organization and then if we turn to your fifth statement paragraph 17 sorry
01:44:01 your fifth statement paragraph 17 sorry page 17 paragraph 91 you say
01:44:06 you say there
01:44:09 foot of the screen after 20th of june tmo staff and repairs director operatives continue to remain on site to support residents answer their inquiries and carry out any necessary repairs
01:44:20 and carry out any necessary repairs ongoing welfare doorknobs in the walkways and phone calls to assess who had returned home and those in a hotel accommodation were made so is it the case that even after the first week
01:44:31 case that even after the first week following the fire there were still evacuated residents who had still not been accounted for um
01:44:40 i'm not sure whether this was more about welcoming them back if they came out of the hotels and returned to the properties by this stage um people didn't all return immediately
01:44:52 um people didn't all return immediately people some people never returned and some people returned a week or two later so it was um you know it was a changing climate
01:45:04 changing climate right
01:45:17 now um if we stick with this statement and look up a paragraph there you say on in paragraph 90 that a letter to residence was prepared
01:45:29 that a letter to residence was prepared was in preparation to advise stroke update on a number of matters this letter was chased with gold sent gold control so we could deliver it that week it was delivered on the 22nd of june and you exhibited a tb-52
01:45:40 you exhibited a tb-52 it's a
01:45:42 it's a nine nine eight tmo-00869984
01:45:54 tmo double zero eight six nine nine eight four and it says for residents at hearst way walk tested and walk in barron's will walk update following the fire at grenfell tower and you can see at the foot of
01:46:05 and you can see at the foot of the screen that says 22nd of june 2017. do you know who drafted this document um i think our comms team drafted it and it provides an update to residents about what the tmo had been doing in the
01:46:16 what the tmo had been doing in the aftermath of the fire yes yes and yes why was that information also not available for tread gold house residents um we did
01:46:27 um we did we did do a separate communication with tread gold i believe um i can't tell you on what date but i do know that we did a letter to them
01:46:38 know that we did a letter to them this was the first written update to residents wasn't it yes that's right i think it's correct that there was some delay with this letter being circulated well i think we had been communicating
01:46:49 well i think we had been communicating in person up until this point um and uh yes it was it was um delivered later than i would have hoped right why was that
01:46:59 was that um
01:47:05 i'm not quite sure i got confused in the statement you've just referred to because i said that that was a gold group and can grow group that delayed at that stage they definitely had to sign off all our
01:47:17 definitely had to sign off all our future correspondents so there were delays in that process but i think this was just done by us internally and yes it did take longer than i would have
01:47:28 it did take longer than i would have liked but we were communicating separately before this time and you said that gold group had to sign off on all our future correspondent does that was that was that the arrangement that once gold had come in
01:47:39 arrangement that once gold had come in on the afternoon of the 16th of june the friday
01:47:42 friday you couldn't make any informed communications at least with residents without
01:47:46 without gold groups say so yep that's absolutely the case i prepared um a daily briefing i think from about of all the key messages because i wanted to be proactive in terms of telling
01:47:58 to be proactive in terms of telling residents about the complex cleaning schedule that we had you know which block we'd be in which day what we were doing and
01:48:07 and all that i had to go through gold group so
01:48:10 so you see some of that information in the letters that barry quirk sent out to residents in july and then finally there was another letter on the 27th of july
01:48:22 was another letter on the 27th of july who told you that all of your communications with your residence had to be signed off by london or local authority gold there's a direct email it came to me via sasha but it was from
01:48:34 came to me via sasha but it was from robin fair um
01:48:36 um hermann
01:48:38 hermann there's an email directly from her telling us that go back to your fifth statement please page 18 paragraph 93
01:48:51 you say this is this is where you pick this point up and you say in paragraph 93 in the third line we continue to produce further written briefings but the london gold
01:49:02 written briefings but the london gold group wanted to review our communication with residents and we were unable to contact residents directly by letter about matters such as our extensive cleaning program refuse shoots being blocked re-routing fire exits repair of
01:49:13 blocked re-routing fire exits repair of door entry systems without the without approval of our draft letters we were not permitted to send the next letter to 27th july 2017
01:49:25 is is it right that there was no further written update to residents between the 22nd of july sorry 22nd of june until the 27th of july
01:49:35 july um so there was a letter as i referred to just a minute earlier that barry quirk sent out to the walkway residents which gave them a little bit of an update in the back of it
01:49:47 update in the back of it about some of our work on reinstating services and where we were with that and so it was contained within that letter but it wasn't from us directly
01:49:58 but it wasn't from us directly and you continue and say the briefings were initially produced to be forward-looking but given the delay in being able to send them it became a record of what had been done the approval from gold control took much longer than we would have liked meaning
01:50:10 longer than we would have liked meaning the communications to our residents was delayed that was one source of concern
01:50:16 can you give us some idea of the delay involved time wise time well um as i say i started doing my briefings um so we did this one
01:50:27 doing my briefings um so we did this one the previous one we talked about on the 22nd i think i started producing fresh briefings just after that we wanted to communicate to people about changes in um the evacuation um arrangements back of
01:50:40 the evacuation um arrangements back of the block so it was from then really until um
01:50:44 until um the 12th of july which was the first communication then again on the 27th so it's a continual process all this time i'd like to turn to a different topic now which is information sharing and
01:50:55 now which is information sharing and support in the delivery of the emergency relief response can we go to your sixth statement please page 20 paragraph 71 and you say there
01:51:15 in the fourth line we also had daily briefings with the team leaders at least in the initial few days to share information and the messaging we wanted to give to ensure a good exchange between all front-facing staff
01:51:26 between all front-facing staff on which day did those start those briefings
01:51:28 briefings so the first one we had was on the um on the 15th of june and i held them every day
01:51:37 every day for a while and then as we were doing as i moved on to doing the briefings um that we just talked about i got everyone to provide me an update by 10 o'clock in the morning um and then
01:51:49 by 10 o'clock in the morning um and then that information was circulated and discussed with our team did you deliver the briefings yeah yes and uh did where did those briefings take place um at the at our office
01:52:00 at the at our office right and you continue and you say following this olivia hutchinson provided a daily briefing for sharing with staff in our customer services center and for our out of hours provider
01:52:11 center and for our out of hours provider for instance see olivia's email at 15th june enclosed at tb18 you see that uh and you give an example were you involved in any team briefings with members of the executive team including
01:52:23 members of the executive team including robert black to share information and discuss the tma's response with them yes um
01:52:28 um robert held some um briefings with uh with all our staff um i think the first one was on the 16th um
01:52:36 um there were others maybe the 20th um and we definitely hold held a um an executive and senior management team meeting um
01:52:48 meeting um before the end of this first week where we were all sharing information around what we were doing so everyone was updated on the various work strands that we were doing and if you get your uh six statement page 15
01:53:01 you get your uh six statement page 15 back five pages please paragraph 52 you say there was also and this is in the last three lines there was also a tma representative robert black present at the gold group
01:53:12 robert black present at the gold group meetings where information was shared and regular updates given on the work we were doing what process was in place for tma staff on the ground to update robert black in advance of these rbkc gold meetings
01:53:24 meetings um so we
01:53:27 um so we i think i might have briefed him i can't remember exactly but we were
01:53:33 we were he was asking for updates and we were giving him so you just looked at an example of an email that he sent earlier the roberts sent earlier and that information would have come from graham and myself
01:53:45 graham and myself on the ground to update him before he went into gold group right and how would robert black normally share the information that he had received from rbkc gold group meetings with you or your team um
01:53:58 probably through um well
01:54:01 well firstly in that executive team meeting that i just explained with the with et and smt
01:54:07 and smt um and then i think we just got calls and emails and updates by sasha so various different ways depending on the nature of what it was and how regularly were you in contact
01:54:18 and how regularly were you in contact with with robert black in the first seven days after the fire um [Music]
01:54:24 [Music] i would say fairly regularly um i can't give you times or dates but no i can't give you charms and dates but did you speak to him on the phone or was it mainly by email um
01:54:37 it mainly by email um i can't remember i would imagine it was a variety of things both phone calls and emails and of course in person and as i say he came he came to our main office
01:54:48 say he came he came to our main office on the 16th and did a presentation to all our staff so i saw him then um
01:54:53 um i needed another one a few days after so right
01:54:58 right did you get any support any actual practical support from the executive team robert black in particular to help you fulfill the various roles that you had undertaken your team had undertaken in the immediate aftermath of
01:55:09 undertaken in the immediate aftermath of the fire
01:55:11 the fire um i think we got what we needed i don't think we needed any any more than what we had we had the right specialists involved in trying to to to solve the issues and then we um
01:55:24 to to to solve the issues and then we um relied on other experts later on to help us with some of those technically difficult issues robert did help um with organizing for um some additional staff to be brought into our
01:55:36 staff to be brought into our organization basically to backfill myself and some other staff so that we could be free to
01:55:45 free to do all the things that we needed um to do on the ground so it's backfilling our staff so that they could um help with you know our day job supporting all our other residents
01:55:56 supporting all our other residents because we had you know thousands of other residents look after um and and he didn't reorganize for that did you feel adequately supported by robert black in your response yes i did
01:56:07 robert black in your response yes i did you did you had no criticisms at the time of his own involvement no uh rbkc uh let's i want to ask you one or two questions about
01:56:18 or two questions about uh the council can we uh stick with your let's go back to your fifth statement please
01:56:24 please page a paragraph 41 and you say in that paragraph that
01:56:31 that two thirds of the way down your screen in the last sentence there was good liaison sharing of information and support between the tmo and rbkc teams on the day of the fire and the coming
01:56:42 on the day of the fire and the coming weeks
01:56:43 weeks how is information generally shared between
01:56:46 between rbkc and the tmo teams in the immediate aftermath
01:56:50 aftermath um so i think in a variety of ways it would have been emails it would have been phone calls um i spoke to amanda a lot to to laura
01:57:01 i spoke to amanda a lot to to laura quite a bit
01:57:04 it was in every any way we needed to phone email amanda was on site one day as well i remember
01:57:12 remember did you feel that you received clear and timely communication from our bkc about what was required of the tmo in the immediate aftermath yes i think i think given the circumstances um on the day of the fire
01:57:25 circumstances um on the day of the fire they were communicating um messages to us um yeah i think i think we i think we got that right i think there was appropriate
01:57:36 was appropriate and good liaison between the tmo and amanda and laura's teams yes you did
01:57:44 gold then was there a system in place under the tmo's own emergency plan to increase capacity in the event of a mass homelessness event such as the grenfell tower fire
01:57:57 um no because that wouldn't have been our responsibility that would have been an rbkc responsibility to to gear up for mass evacuation and re-housing can we look at rbk3010176
01:58:20 this is an email thread containing an email from barbara brownlee as you can see on the bottom part of your screen uh who was at westminster city council which is forwarded through rbkc
01:58:31 which is forwarded through rbkc through the back to laura johnson and stuart priestley on the 16th of june at 11 51 let's look at the message she says
01:58:39 she says uh
01:58:40 uh and we can see that it gets filtered through higher up the email run but she says this
01:58:45 says this there are currently unofficial calls for assistance coming from knc's tmo for help they have used whatsapp to send out a message to some london council saying that their staff are exhausted and they need resources on for the weekend
01:58:58 need resources on for the weekend i also
01:59:00 i also i also
01:59:01 i also now have emails from housing consultants who saying the same thing this is a disorganized and very unofficial way to raise help after we have been offering it since the very beginning i'm concerned that too many inexperienced
01:59:12 concerned that too many inexperienced staff will descend upon the respite centers without any planning and simply make the situation worse please can you raise with k and c beck did you or do you
01:59:23 did you or do you know from whom the tma had asked for assistance from london councils um as i said to you just a minute ago i know that um uh robert organized um for some
01:59:35 uh robert organized um for some additional support for us um for staff for the cse and to backfill myself and some other staff i don't recall i don't know how he asked that request i can't
01:59:47 know how he asked that request i can't imagine sending out on what's up but i don't i don't know because i wasn't involved in that well are you saying that robert black asked for support or an increase in capacity from other councils i don't know
01:59:58 councils i don't know who he asked what i am saying is that i know he organized some resources on the weekend after the fire because there were people backfilling myself and another couple of
02:00:11 another couple of senior management team staff and we had some additional resources in the customer service centre um and that enabled us to create um what we call the grenfell team so that we
02:00:22 we call the grenfell team so that we could really focus on the work that we needed to do in in the weeks and coming months so yes that helped us considerably let's see if we can just pin this down to a document because i think we can
02:00:33 because i think we can if we look at rbk3 rbk40 is 1923
02:00:40 zeroes one nine two three and let's go to page two this is an email run entitled request for resources uh and um
02:00:48 uh and um in the middle of the screen here is one on the 19th of june 2017 at 10 45 in the morning
02:00:54 morning from um
02:00:56 from um somebody called radoika miliovich at campbell tikel who were i think management recruitment consultants consultants
02:01:07 consultants consultants and it goes to barbara brownlee at westminster and she says we've had a call from the tmo this morning regarding quite a considerable input of staff resources that they are requesting some people have not turned
02:01:19 requesting some people have not turned up for work today whilst we've been looking at how we might backfill the four most senior posts at least temporarily it doesn't seem appropriate to be trying to fill all the other resource gaps appearing and we assume that in any case this is best done
02:01:30 that in any case this is best done through the command center now does that relate to what you were telling us earlier about robert black seeking additional resources um
02:01:38 um i don't know whether he contacted rodrigo um i i can't tell you if the two are related right
02:01:48 you don't know uh and uh if if um if if we look at what happens to this barbara uh if you go up the chain please to page
02:02:00 if you go up the chain please to page uh
02:02:01 uh i suppose page bottom of page one the way we can pick it up best barbara brownlee forwards this on to amanda johnson
02:02:09 johnson uh at um rbkc hi both just to put on your radar this is at the foot of your screen that the tmo are requesting resources from specific places but we need to
02:02:20 from specific places but we need to coordinate this via london wide please will you investigate when you are over there
02:02:25 there and you get the reply from uh laura from amanda johnson uh above that on the 20th of june 2017 at 12 58 barbara at this morning's meeting you explained that resources
02:02:36 meeting you explained that resources would not be made available to support the tmo in terms of housing management staff the tmo is now struggling to mobilize staff to support people back into their homes i'm clarifying the number of staff that have not attended
02:02:47 number of staff that have not attended work today staff are extremely frightened and the lack of staff will significantly undermine our ability to get people back into their homes accelerating already heightened tensions
02:02:58 accelerating already heightened tensions the london-wide response has been extremely helpful in supporting our bkc and i'm struggling to see why this cannot be extended to the tmo as there is a direct impact on our tenants and staff safety please can you raise this
02:03:09 staff safety please can you raise this raise this with gold were you aware yourself that the london gold response team was not going to make resources available to support the tmo i didn't know any of this conversation was going on right and i don't think that i
02:03:22 going on right and i don't think that i felt under resource to do the job either with the assistance that we did have i didn't feel that i was lacking i certainly didn't feel that we had a huge amount of staff who weren't turning up
02:03:34 amount of staff who weren't turning up for work would you can you account for how it could be that amanda johnson came to the view that the tma was struggling to mobilize staff i don't i don't know that i think
02:03:45 i don't i don't know that i think i think we would have struggled had we not had backfills um that and they were organized um by robert in that first weekend so this is after
02:03:57 in that first weekend so this is after that
02:03:58 that but at that point though did you feel adequately supported by london gold this is a john barredell team in responding to the needs of the residents so i think where we um
02:04:09 so i think where we um where we needed help um from london gold on technical issues um they assisted for example
02:04:19 example um when we had to rebuild the the walkways
02:04:22 walkways and sorry the fire exits at the end of the block
02:04:25 the block um
02:04:26 um i was asked to arrange a meeting with someone from gold or london gold and those resources were made available to help with that and that was really helpful
02:04:36 helpful um so i think where we needed them we got them right turning then to central government was any support provided to you the tmo from central government in the first week
02:04:48 central government in the first week after the fire do you remember no
02:04:59 um can i show you something from
02:05:01 from uh
02:05:03 uh central government can we go please to bei
02:05:06 bei 402844
02:05:13 and this is a witness statement from sebastian bassett james who was a an official in the beis
02:05:24 and if we go please to page paragraph sorry page 12 which is where we are paragraph 49 he says my experience of the local government kensington and
02:05:36 the local government kensington and chelsea london borough council and tmo was less positive i had significant difficulties in making contact with both local government and the tmo the latter of which we were being asked to provide the first line response to a tragedy of
02:05:49 the first line response to a tragedy of unprecedented scale do you agree with his characterization that the tmo had been asked to provide the first line response or in your mind was it rbkc who was doing that i think rbkc were to provide
02:06:02 doing that i think rbkc were to provide the first line of response i don't know when this was written but yes and he continues at paragraph 50. one matter that stood out for me was the response from the tmo there were roles that we expected the tmo to handle which
02:06:13 that we expected the tmo to handle which were not being done an example is making properties safe for the gas to be turned on the beis team in the westway center were working with the gas network distribution team who were putting the gas back on in individual properties the
02:06:26 gas back on in individual properties the team required a locksmith but neither the beis team nor the gas team were assisted by the tmo further assistance was therefore needed from dclg to put pressure on the tmo to take action
02:06:38 take action do you agree with any of that i don't know where that's come from i told you earlier in my evidence today that i was on site on the 21st of june with
02:06:49 june with the gas people were there and on the 20th trying to gain access to these properties so i don't understand where he formed that view from if we turn back to page four paragraph 15 of his second
02:07:01 to page four paragraph 15 of his second statement
02:07:04 he which is this he says there while b whilst b e i s and the tma both had representatives present at the westway center the representatives from tma at the westway center did not have the necessary
02:07:15 center did not have the necessary authority
02:07:17 authority to make decisions authorize actions or respond to the queries that the utilities coordination cell sought to address
02:07:23 address and then he continues at paragraph 19 on page five if we just just go to that he says
02:07:30 at the bottom of the page
02:07:35 i'm sorry uh
02:07:40 yes from my memphian memory colleagues at the westway center reported by phone that although there were representatives from other agencies and organizations working together to resolve the gas safety and property access situation the
02:07:51 safety and property access situation the tma representatives at the center were not able to provide answers to our queries or commit resource to resolving actions our queries for the tmo therefore went unanswered from the 20th to the 21st of june 2017.
02:08:04 to the 21st of june 2017. now i've shown you two passages from this official statement first do you agree that the tma staff assigned to the westway center did not have the authority to make key decisions and may
02:08:15 authority to make key decisions and may not have had all of the information it depends what they were being asked but they certainly we had all on-call people all the time um and um
02:08:25 um and um myself and graham answered i think i think graham got involved in calls from um
02:08:33 um in relation to gas i can't quite remember i'm pretty sure that he did but anyone at the west way would have been able to
02:08:40 able to contact us and i would have thought this would have gone through beck if there was any issues with us not um doing what we needed to do at this stage but i don't understand it because
02:08:53 as far as i could see we responded when we were asked do you not recall any instance at all of having your representatives unable to provide answers to
02:09:05 provide answers to bis is query queries or commit resources i'm sure there were times when they couldn't answer them directly but i i know that they would have contacted an appropriate member of staff passed on
02:09:16 appropriate member of staff passed on the message and and got a response another way i don't know in relation to this um but as i say i would check graham's statement because i think he was contacted by um
02:09:29 if we look at page um six please of this same statement
02:09:37 statement uh he explains what the utilities coordination cell's role was there and in the middle of the paragraph he says as we were unable to get answers from or help progress actions through
02:09:48 from or help progress actions through the tmo we were unable to fulfill our primary role we could still take steps to assist victims and residents but could not complete those tasks which were most important to us in my opinion this led the to the victims and
02:09:59 this led the to the victims and residents being left frustrated for a longer period than necessary do you agree from what you knew and did at the time that residents were left without information and assistance for longer
02:10:10 information and assistance for longer than necessary um i
02:10:13 um i i don't know in relation to this i mean what i do know is that we had teams on site on the 20th and 21st dealing with these issues so i don't know where where these queries
02:10:25 don't know where where these queries were directed but i know that you know i i was on i was on the ground on the 21st we had rd staff assisting with sorry repairs direct staff assisting with um
02:10:37 repairs direct staff assisting with um forced entries and repairing doors so um
02:10:41 um i'm i have to say i'm not really understanding this right
02:10:48 looking back on it was it appropriate for the tmo as you understood it at the time to be fulfilling key roles in the immediate aftermath of the fire such as for example supporting 845
02:11:00 such as for example supporting 845 evacuated residents and organizing the restoration of utilities to all these homes
02:11:07 homes um was it appropriate um i never considered that it wasn't appropriate i just focused on trying to do the best we could and where we needed specialist technical help which was definitely
02:11:19 technical help which was definitely um
02:11:21 um with the boilers and the fire escapes um we did ask for help i know james raj asked for some help from other people from london gold in relation to um
02:11:33 relation to um issues we had with the door entry system he asked if anyone could assist with getting supplies quicker and i don't know if you got an answer to that but i think we called in people um
02:11:45 that but i think we called in people um where we needed them was it your unders view or understanding that that too high an expectation uh was was accorded to the tma to fulfill roles that should have been undertaken by our
02:11:57 that should have been undertaken by our bkc and then by london gold
02:12:02 can you repeat that sorry yes i mean but do you consider that that it was too much to ask the tmo to fulfill roles that should have been
02:12:13 that should have been fulfilled by our bkc uh or later london gold i don't i don't know whether it's too much to ask i know that um
02:12:21 that um we responded where we could i know that um
02:12:25 um our cleaning company um did an excellent job in helping us with refuse
02:12:30 refuse issues so
02:12:31 issues so um i think we got on with it didn't really think about it you know
02:12:38 you know we didn't think about asking for help unless we needed help and and i suppose and and
02:12:43 and and and it was around those technical areas um that we did we brought in additional resources from our cleaning companies so um i think we just tried to focus on solving the problems the heating
02:12:54 solving the problems the heating obviously was very complicated technically and um
02:12:59 and um you know you you'll know the army was was sent in to solve that but i think we did go with the original solution that our um
02:13:07 our um our um technical people in the tmo had suggested but it just took some time to to implement
02:13:16 i mean cutting through this in general terms
02:13:20 terms given that there was no formal role for the tmo based on the civil contingencies act or the edifice of regulation and guidance statutory or non-statutory which sat under it
02:13:31 under it and given that the rbkc never made a specific request would it be right to characterize the entirety of the tma's involvement in the aftermath of the grenfell tower fire as voluntary
02:13:44 fire as voluntary um
02:13:47 i don't say i do you know i i wasn't aware of all the arrangements you know late the technical the you know the contingency arrangements at a higher level i didn't know who was supposed to do what or
02:13:59 know who was supposed to do what or who you know who was in charge some days um but i did know that um
02:14:06 we were just focused on what we needed to do to to to assist in any way that we could that's what i know
02:14:20 yes thank you very much um well miss brown you'll be glad to hear that i've come to the end of my prepared questions there may be one or two others that i haven't asked you but which on reflection i should there may be others questions that others would wish to be
02:14:32 questions that others would wish to be asked of you so i'm going to ask the chairman to take the standard break if i may
02:14:38 if i may and we will come back and finish off shortly okay yes well you've been here often enough now to know that at this stage we have a short break to see if there are any more questions that we ought to put to you
02:14:50 ought to put to you i'm going to say we'll come back at half past four
02:14:53 past four unless i get a message from mr millet that more time is required and then at that point we'll see if there aren't any more questions for you okay all right thank you thank you very much would you give the ashrae please
02:15:11 well mr millet we'll say how fast four if you if you need more time yes get the us come and tell us yes mr chairman thank you thank you
02:25:09 would you ask this brown to come back in please
02:25:20 [Music]
02:25:28 all right take a moment all right very good well now mr millet any more questions yes i have i have um a few i think
02:25:36 think the first relates to a very very specific incident um you know you told us uh this morning uh
02:25:44 uh that you sought to supplement the pre-existing list of residents with information collected at rest centers about who were missing we saw some of the documents some of the pieces of paper the manuscript pieces of paper
02:25:55 manuscript pieces of paper i want to ask you about one particular incident if i may please and this is taken from the statement of chanel spence who was gary maunder's
02:26:06 chanel spence who was gary maunder's niece and she was and he was staying overnight with his friend in flat 161. uh
02:26:13 uh uh
02:26:14 uh now um if we can go please to tmo four zeros one six five seven
02:26:23 this is
02:26:26 that is not that is not it that is your statement if we can go to
02:26:33 five tm0401657
02:26:35 let me show you page one
02:26:45 right uh iwf
02:26:48 uh iwf four zeroes one six five seven
02:26:56 and let's go please two
02:27:00 right what's the reference to this wrong reference as always right
02:27:08 right iws four zeros one six five seven okay this is the second witness statement of channel spence and if we can go please in it to page three paragraph ten
02:27:23 and she says at some point i was made aware that i may be able to find out things at st clement james church so we headed there i spoke to someone who i believe was from the tmo i'm not sure
02:27:34 believe was from the tmo i'm not sure now how i knew this she was not friendly and seemed to be quite hostile i explained that i was looking for my uncle but he didn't live there but he was staying with someone called debbie she said deborah and she asked if it was
02:27:46 she said deborah and she asked if it was a white blonde lady i said that i didn't know
02:27:50 know she she said almost as if she was recollecting and speaking to herself rather than me that she knows of a woman called deborah as opposed to debbie who she used to talk to and that she lived on such and such a floor i can't recall
02:28:02 on such and such a floor i can't recall i can't now recall which floor she said i said i didn't know i didn't get any further assistance now um
02:28:13 uh this is happening at st clement james church which is i think where you were yes
02:28:18 yes um
02:28:20 um could this have been you to whom she spoke
02:28:25 spoke i i
02:28:26 i i don't think so i don't recall this conversation right i very much um unless i don't know when it was no idea what time it was no and not not nor is that clear from the statement but did
02:28:38 is that clear from the statement but did you know somebody called debbie or deborah in the tower no right i don't recall this right do you do you recall a mixed-race woman asking eu about a debbie or a deborah
02:28:50 eu about a debbie or a deborah no and i'm sure i wasn't the only blonde woman in the right in the saint germain are you able to explain why gary maunder's his name because he was the
02:29:01 maunder's his name because he was the visitor visiting debbie debbie lampro as it turns out did not feature on the grenfell tower spreadsheet compiled by the 16th of june and shared with gold group
02:29:12 and shared with gold group the one we looked at before no i don't i don't i can't answer those individual circumstances i need access to you know information tendency records to have a look at that i couldn't possibly
02:29:23 have a look at that i couldn't possibly answer that no the reason i'm asking you about this particular incident is that this is we believe the only an instance of a visitor
02:29:33 not making it onto the list so in a particular category but you can't help i think i'm sorry i can't right can i then take you to another document which is clg-405723
02:29:53 and uh this is an email uh from sally randall to kerry mchale uh in the office of melanie dawes uh and
02:30:05 uh in the office of melanie dawes uh and as and others now i don't think you would have seen this appear to have been sent to you but i'll read it to you um it says um spoke to barbara brownlee
02:30:18 um spoke to barbara brownlee impression of what's going on [Music]
02:30:21 [Music] tmo has no leadership everyone including k and c is dithering tmo staff are drifting around traumatized rumors that some are cleaning computer records staff preoccupied with likelihood of
02:30:32 staff preoccupied with likelihood of criminal charges no one is taking care of the staff a handful are trying to do the job but are still very traumatized and working with no leadership they cannot cannot get reliable information eg on the state of the
02:30:44 information eg on the state of the finger blocks and that's just a handful of the observations made by sally randall in central government dclg to her colleagues based on what barbara brownlee at
02:30:56 based on what barbara brownlee at westminster had told her do you recognize uh any of these observations i have no idea where she's how she's what she's based those observation on so
02:31:07 observation on so um i'm not sure that i could comment um for my part i didn't feel that people were dithering around i thought people were incredibly traumatized by what
02:31:18 were incredibly traumatized by what happened but what i saw in our staff was staff who were focused on getting on with the job and doing what they could to support people i don't recall as being
02:31:29 i don't recall as being dithering um or unable to act or cope um and i don't think people i think people made judgments got impressions
02:31:41 people made judgments got impressions didn't and i don't know what they were based on because i never talked about barbara brownlee i don't know who did so can we take it from what you just told us that you would reject the accuracy
02:31:53 would reject the accuracy of the impression that barbara brownlee had gained in the five bullet points i've read to you from this document um yes i would i but i would say we won't got everything right you will know that but i can say we
02:32:05 you will know that but i can say we tried very hard and i don't think we were dithering right i think we were focused we had clear jobs to do we had an amazingly difficult time to
02:32:16 we had an amazingly difficult time to reinstate services on top of dealing with
02:32:20 with you know a huge amount of evacuated residents
02:32:23 residents but um i didn't feel that there was no leadership i felt our staff worked incredibly hard and pulled together
02:32:33 so you told us you never spoke to barbara brown did you speak to anybody westminster no did you have any contact at all with anybody in london local authority gold about
02:32:43 about about what you were doing about your resources
02:32:46 resources um so i
02:32:48 um so i i did have contact with the man who came i'm sorry i can't remember his name i had brief contact with the man who wanted to come and do an inspection in terms of the walkways
02:32:59 terms of the walkways to look at the fire exits and i arranged for somebody to go out with him so i had that contact personally
02:33:10 i don't think i had any other direct contact with london gold i'm trying to think
02:33:17 so yeah i don't know where these views are formed from i suddenly never spoke to barbara brownlee at all
02:33:27 did you ever speak to anyone in central government particularly about matters no but they also formed views on us and i don't i don't know how they were formed yeah and finally um
02:33:39 and finally um ms brown looking back on the evidence we've covered over the course of the day and looking back on the aftermath as you recall it in your statements is there anything that you would say today that you would have done
02:33:50 today that you would have done differently and you had the chance um i think i think the issue of contacting um
02:33:57 um next of ken is is something that really sort of um i dwell on and i think that's um i think that's something that residents should work with housing
02:34:09 residents should work with housing organizations on because we won't always have known the details of a next of kin we did have a question on our tenancy check process and clearly there were a lot of
02:34:21 and clearly there were a lot of distressed next of kin looking for information and i think it would have been
02:34:27 been very helpful if we'd had more details that we could have shared with say the casualty bureau so that they could have communicated with those residents much earlier um i don't think it would have been our
02:34:39 um i don't think it would have been our role necessarily but i think
02:34:42 i think it
02:34:43 it would be very important to have those next to kin details in in people's databases going forward
02:34:52 well ms brown thank you very much for that and thank you for your evidence overall it remains only for me to thank you very much for coming yet again to the inquiry and assisting us with your with your evidence helping us with our
02:35:03 with your evidence helping us with our investigations so thank you very much indeed thank you and i should thank you as well ms brown on behalf of all three members of the panel you've given evidence now three times which i think is
02:35:15 which i think is unusual to say the least and it's been very helpful to us now to hear what you can tell us about what happened in in the days after the fire so we're very grateful to hear from you and
02:35:26 we're very grateful to hear from you and you're now free to go thank you thank you very much
02:35:40 well thank you mr millet um that must be it for today but we have another witness coming tomorrow we do mr robert black tomorrow morning good thank you very much so we'll adjourn there and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow
02:35:51 we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow thank you