Claire Williams (TMO Project Manager) on her review of fire safety documents, keystone database, and resident consultation
00:00:07 [Applause]
00:00:14 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to continue this morning hearing evidence from claire williams of the tmo
00:00:22 the tmo would you ask mrs williams to come in
00:00:28 please
00:00:38 good morning miss williams good morning are you ready to carry on yes good thank you yes mr millet good morning mr chairman good morning ms williams
00:00:47 williams um i just want to sweep up a few topics that we covered yesterday and just tie off a few loose ends if i may um the first of those is your reading of the stage d report which was dated
00:01:00 the stage d report which was dated december 2012. can we look at the stage d report which is max
00:01:10 50757
00:01:15 and uh you can see that it's dated august 2013 in fact not december 2012 i'm slightly preempting my own question
00:01:26 i'm slightly preempting my own question but you rem you i think referred yesterday to a report dated to december 2012. do you remember what that might have been no it was this stage d report the x
00:01:37 been no it was this stage d report the x over report i said was dated to the december 2012 okay so so looking at the first page of this uh document the stage d report which we can see was dated august 2013.
00:01:48 can see was dated august 2013. do you remember whether you read this when you arrived at the tmo a month later yes this was on my desk it was on your desk it was given to me
00:01:57 to me as part of my briefing uh when you say it was given to you was the whole thing given to you as a package as part of your briefing there was a bound report which i believe was this which was
00:02:08 which was on my desk left as me is left for me to read as a briefing i see can we go to page 78 in it then please
00:02:19 this was within the band report and this is issue one of xover's outline fire safety strategy for grenfell tower and you can see the date at the bottom right hand corner on the first page there 31st of october 2012. did when you
00:02:33 31st of october 2012. did when you looked at the stage d report did you look at this document
00:02:37 document i was aware that it was in there yes well
00:02:41 well you were wet you were aware that it was in there because you read it or you were aware that it was in there because somebody told you that it was in there i i i believe i i saw it and i would have
00:02:52 i believe i i saw it and i would have scanned it right you say scandi do you mean read it quickly
00:02:57 quickly yes can we um go in this report to page nine internally
00:03:08 page nine internally which i think should be page five sorry page seventy three in the printout that's not what i want um did you if we
00:03:22 that's not what i want um did you if we can just go back to page five internally page nine internally of this document
00:03:33 page nine internally of this document let's try um page 87. well do you want nine because we've now got nine enough i think no well um do let me try and take it more quickly do you remember seeing
00:03:44 more quickly do you remember seeing a paragraph in this report dealing with external fire spread no you don't did you read the stage d report fully do you think
00:03:56 you think i would have concentrated on the architectural background that the initial paragraph pages from studio e that that was the area that i
00:04:08 studio e that that was the area that i concentrated on most of but i would have scanned the rest of it i see you would have scanned the rest of it can we look at page 81 in the relativity numbering
00:04:19 in the relativity numbering and just look at paragraph 3.1.4 please compliance with b4 external fire spread it is considered that the proposed changes will have no adverse effect on the building in relation to external fire spread
00:04:30 fire spread but this will be confirmed by an analysis in a future issue of this report
00:04:34 report when you scanned this document did you see that no can you account for that as i say i i scanned it it had been in existence for a little while
00:04:45 existence for a little while the august 13 stage d report so i scanned this but i do not remember seeing that paragraph at all okay so does that tell us that your review of the stage d report was cursory
00:05:00 when it was given to me initially yes i concentrated on the background as presented by the architects and it was
00:05:09 was a big document so i've tried to use my time by um say understanding their background so this bit was cursory yes right
00:05:24 cursory yes right did you have a discussion or briefing session
00:05:28 session with anybody within the tmo about the stage d report
00:05:35 no did you have a discussion with anybody outside the tmo such as studio e about the stage d report that they had produced
00:05:46 report that they had produced no i was aware that it was in existence and several people had referred it to me as part of my getting to grips with the project
00:06:00 even though well who was who were the several people who had referred it to you as part of your game in grips with the project do you remember david gibson would have because it was part of my briefing pack
00:06:13 my briefing pack studio e would have said have you read our report because that will explain to you where we are at the moment so probably those two parties specifically
00:06:24 specifically right when studio e uh would have said have you read our report what did you answer
00:06:33 it would have been a conversation with bruce sue ness and i would have introduced myself discussed our backgrounds and then i would have said i'm getting up to date and he would have said well the latest
00:06:45 and he would have said well the latest information is the studio is the stage d report right so i don't remember a time scale but i would suspect fairly early on when i met him
00:06:55 him right having been told by studio e to read the st hd report in order to get to grips with the project why didn't you read it thoroughly i was being inducted into the new
00:07:06 i was being inducted into the new organization i had a lot of information to read i was still
00:07:11 still being taken around the offices to meet people who i would need to work with so it was
00:07:19 an overload of new information so i i had to balance um what i was doing so obviously at different times different
00:07:31 obviously at different times different things got priority but so it was because i was new to the organization that i had a lot to get to grips with um in your career to that date
00:07:40 that date had you ever come across fire safety strategies no so this was the first time you'd ever seen one is that right
00:07:50 yes i think it is i've worked on new builds but i'm not aware of seeing a fire safety strategy with them i can't say hand on heart i've seen it so when you noticed xover's outline
00:08:02 it so when you noticed xover's outline fire safety strategy as we can see here on the screen in the pack this was the first time you'd ever seen such a document of its kind i believe so yes given that it was the
00:08:15 i believe so yes given that it was the first time you'd ever seen such a document of its kind why did you read it thoroughly and equate yourself with exactly what it said yeah
00:08:22 said yeah no i i at the time was new to the organization and i had many issues to deal with in terms of
00:08:29 terms of being inducted in terms of what my role was
00:08:33 was and so i was also getting to grips with the project so um i didn't read this paragraph in the detail that i should have given that
00:08:44 the detail that i should have given that it was a
00:08:45 it was a fire safety strategy did it not strike you as something to do with uh life safety
00:08:57 later in the project perhaps i would have thought about that but when i first arrived it was one of many documents i had to get to grips with and had to understand
00:09:08 get to grips with and had to understand as a whole so it was part of the jigsaw yes given that well given the importance that you accorded to this document when you read it was there any part of
00:09:19 when you read it was there any part of the stage d report that you accorded greater importance or regarded as a higher priority
00:09:26 i believe as i've said that i i would have read the background to the scheme as put forward by studio e with more
00:09:37 studio e with more into more depth because it gave a background in to how the project was put together and how the design proposal had been um arrived at so i would have looked at
00:09:50 um arrived at so i would have looked at the architectural elements first because that was something i thought gave me a good briefing as well as
00:09:58 as something that perhaps was more familiar to me i see now turning to a slightly different topic or
00:10:07 topic or rather different topic we discussed yesterday
00:10:11 yesterday the meeting at which you said that simon lawrence had given an assurance that the cladding was inert and wouldn't burn
00:10:23 and i put to you i think on two occasions
00:10:26 occasions why your reaction when you saw the building on fire on the 14th of june wasn't that you had been told something which was wrong you remember that exchange we
00:10:37 was wrong you remember that exchange we had i think on two occasions yesterday i just want to show you a document tmo double zero eight seven zero five six please
00:11:09 no that's not a document that's uh in opuses is immediate grasp and we have to we may have to come back to that later on then
00:11:17 on then um can i then ask you some questions about uh
00:11:20 about uh the discussions we had yesterday about the fire risk assessment and can i start by showing you what you said at day 55 line one one six
00:11:36 and uh line four day 55 page 116 at line 14.
00:11:45 and at line 14 you say i say to you we've got to look at the next fra is that right and you say yes that's where i'm expecting that there would be feedback yes
00:11:56 would be feedback yes and this was in the context of me asking you some questions about you recording the answers to the questions
00:12:05 questions that you'd posed to simon o'connor which had arisen out of the 17th of october 2014 fra do you remember yes that's the
00:12:16 fra do you remember yes that's the context of it i don't want to take up time reading great chunks of transcript but that's the context
00:12:22 context so you said at line 15 that's where i'm expecting that there would be the feedback
00:12:28 feedback let's look at that it's cst four zeros three one
00:12:32 three one six one
00:12:41 and if we can go to page four in that
00:12:48 this is the 26th of april 2016 fra done by carl stokes
00:12:56 if we look at page 4
00:13:00 you can see
00:13:05 that uh
00:13:09 at the very top of the page new external cladding has been fitted to this building as part of the project do you see that yes as part of the project of refurbishment straight construction work being undertaken on
00:13:21 construction work being undertaken on and within this building the original external face of this building has been overcloud the new fire rated cladding is fixed to the out face of the building by metal fixings and the whole process has been overseen by the rbkc building control department
00:13:33 by the rbkc building control department and
00:13:33 and officers they have approved and accepted the fixing system and cladding used now that statement there is repeated verbatim in the next
00:13:44 is repeated verbatim in the next fra in june 2016 and just to be comprehensive let's go to that cst403145
00:13:51 cst403145 please
00:14:00 and again at page four that's that's the first page you can see 20th of june 2016.
00:14:05 2016. and this is i believe the last fire risk assessment before the fire itself the following june and if we go to page four again you can see at the top of the page
00:14:14 page ms williams new external cladding has been fitted to this building as part of the project etc and in the third line it says the new fire rated cladding is fixed to the out face of the building by metal fixings
00:14:26 fixings we don't see an answer to the question of what the fire rating is there did mr o'connor ever tell you
00:14:36 no i i don't think he responded to the queries over how to deal with it i think as i said yesterday we ended up just sitting down together right do you know where mr
00:14:47 together right do you know where mr stokes
00:14:48 stokes got the information that the cladding was fire rated
00:14:55 i don't know whether he got it from conversations that were heard with ryden or i i don't know
00:15:03 know no you see you told us yesterday that in order to see the answers to the questions
00:15:10 questions in the uh five-part email which contained you said a lot of bits he was sweeping up which you sent to simon o'connor we would have to look at the next fra
00:15:22 would have to look at the next fra and indeed we're now looking at the next fra and the one after that and this is all that is said here about cladding
00:15:31 cladding looking at those documents do you accept that in fact you didn't get any responses of any meaning to the questions that you asked mr o'connor which in turn
00:15:43 o'connor which in turn mr stokes had asked our view
00:15:49 i believe that simon o'connor didn't give any formal written responses and therefore this is [Music]
00:15:58 [Music] based on the best understanding that carl stokes would have had do you know who supplied mr stokes with the statement that the fire rating the uh cladding was fire
00:16:10 fire rating the uh cladding was fire rated
00:16:13 i'm not sure i don't know
00:16:19 right now can we go to day 55 different subject which is the keystone database can we go to day
00:16:28 to day 55 yesterday's transcript please and go to page 132
00:16:35 and i'd like to go to line 24 if we can in that please
00:16:45 and i'm i i'm asking you there uh about an email exchange which goes over the page between you philip booth and nick valente
00:16:58 you go over the page to page 133 about your 12th of november 2014 email to them
00:17:05 to them their response back to you and then your latino moment email to simon lawrence at writing do you recall that's the context i remember the context yes and i asked
00:17:17 i remember the context yes and i asked you about the database and if you go to um page 140 that's where the line starts but if we go to page 140
00:17:24 page 140 please and go to line 12 i asked you did you give this database a name or nickname and at line 12 your answer was it was keystone was the overriding name i think
00:17:36 i think and if you go then to uh the question of fire retardancy i just want to show you what you said yesterday um go back a little bit in the transcript to page 137 at line eight
00:17:50 and at line eight i ask you you go to the database it asks for cost so you know
00:17:54 know and look at the cladding what i want to know is whether what you looked at on the cladding was what promised you to ask
00:18:00 ask about flame retardance or whether the database
00:18:03 database asked about flame retardants yeah no i believe the database had something that would say is there any issue flame retardance or something of that sort about fire and that's probably what would have done
00:18:15 and that's probably what would have done it but it could have been that i put in cladding and then i thought oh hold on i haven't asked them this so it could have been either i can't 100 guarantee
00:18:26 and then i say all right i follow either way something asked you to ask about flame retardance so you say it could have been the database raising it as a flag or it could have been whatever you were looking at about
00:18:37 whatever you were looking at about cladding answer yeah now we have a statement from john parsons do you know mr john parsons yes i do what was who what was he his
00:18:49 yes i do what was who what was he his role
00:18:49 role and who was he effectively the database manager for the assets and regeneration team right i see can we look at his statement i just want to show you something
00:19:01 i just want to show you something in it tm00870938
00:19:08 that's double zero eight nine zero tmo double zero eight seven zero nine three eight
00:19:24 three eight and if we go to paragraph eight in that document on page two
00:19:33 uh he says i have been asked how the keystone system was used by the tmo to manage and govern its fire safety management systems however keystone was not used to manage
00:19:44 however keystone was not used to manage the tmos fire safety management systems it was not used as a workflow for the fire risk assessments nor was it used to monitor the completion of actions arising from those assessments it is my understanding that servicing and inspection of fire safety equipment
00:19:56 and inspection of fire safety equipment was recorded in spreadsheets managed by the contracts management team and then at paragraph nine he says fire risk assessments were managed by the tmos health and safety team using their own methods that being said
00:20:08 using their own methods that being said if the fire risk assessor wanted to know certain information about gas and electric records for example keystone would hold that information and it was readily available to anyone who wished who need to see it
00:20:20 to anyone who wished who need to see it [Applause] do you accept that the keystone database didn't contain any prompts that regarding the fire retardancy of cladding panels i said at the time i wasn't 100 sure but
00:20:32 i said at the time i wasn't 100 sure but i
00:20:33 i did think there was a a a new column for it and that it might have had a prompt on it
00:20:41 on it what john has said is accurate i'm not saying i'm not contradicting him what i'm saying is that there was cladding there and
00:20:52 that there was cladding there and i thought it had a prompt on it but i didn't i wasn't 100 sure but it did keystone didn't manage the fire safety systems he's he's right so i see so this wasn't
00:21:05 he's right so i see so this wasn't the database what was the database which raised the flag
00:21:10 that the keystone database is about the stock it's about the asset so as i explained it's about the
00:21:21 so as i explained it's about the components that make up the building for example is it gas heated is it electric heated so it didn't have the fire safety
00:21:32 so it didn't have the fire safety servicing information on it it had the information on the construction of the buildings and the services within whether it was communal boilers individual heating that sort of thing
00:21:45 individual heating that sort of thing but to say that that's you know i'm not i'm clear on this this isn't a contradiction i'm just trying to explain right so can we be clear that the date the keystone database wasn't the database
00:21:56 the database that asked you or prompted you to ask the question initially of artelia about the fire retardancy or an issue about the fire retardancy requirements of the cladding
00:22:09 requirements of the cladding no the keystone database was where i had to
00:22:13 to enter the fact that the building was clad because it was part of a construction and description of the building yes i i'm now not clear what your
00:22:25 yes i i'm now not clear what your evidence is was the database from which you got the prompt the keystone database or not because i entered cladding onto the keystone database that was the prompt i see right
00:22:38 that was the prompt i see right can i then go to the document i wanted to show you but i gave the wrong reference
00:22:42 reference to it's tmo double zero eight seven zero eight five six this is in the context of the
00:22:50 the discussion which uh you told us about yesterday where simon lawrence had given you the assurance that the cladding was inert and wouldn't burn now this is an email from you
00:23:02 now this is an email from you to somebody within the tmo called hj hep and also to uh peter madison and alex
00:23:13 and also to uh peter madison and alex bosman
00:23:14 bosman just had to help me eight j cell hep is who
00:23:19 who it's actually j cell hep who took over from david gibson as head of capital i see bottom of the team was called at the time right
00:23:30 the time right and alex bosman uh board wasn't he no alex bosman is equivalent to david but he dealt with the
00:23:40 the contract side i see organization now the timing of this email is important you sent it on the 14th of june at 11 30 in the morning
00:23:52 can you see that yes now on the morning or late morning of the 14th of june grenfell tower was still on fire wasn't it yes
00:24:05 still on fire wasn't it yes and here we see a list of uh matters and some attachments and they're quite detailed
00:24:17 the attachments include progress meeting minutes building control site inspections and site inspections and part two
00:24:28 and site inspections and part two preliminaries among other things then we can see a list of topics the contract is one two m e three building control and building a
00:24:40 three building control and building a troll says comment on cladding being in good order and nearly complete as attached in march 2016
00:24:47 2016 i've already sent to janice and alex the completion certificate for clerk of works role and underneath that it says clerk of works report on the cladding in progress generally nothing should say in march 2016 that
00:25:00 nothing should say in march 2016 that the lower three floors are to be completed by cherry picker i know that all floors were signed off as offered up i'm looking for this report now five cdm work started on site
00:25:12 five cdm work started on site june 2014 pc it's practical completion july 2016 and then the rest is about cdm regulations changed and then if we turn to the top of page
00:25:24 and then if we turn to the top of page two we can see how this is signed off please advise if there is any missing information that you would like to see i'm still trawling through the directories and the first question is what prompted
00:25:35 and the first question is what prompted you to send this email i believe that the morning after the fire
00:25:42 fire that there were discussions um obviously amongst the managers as to what information would be needed in the longer term and so this this was
00:25:54 in the longer term and so this this was us i don't know if i was given a list or or whether i was left to my own devices but they were clear that they would be looking to see information which we would need to be
00:26:06 information which we would need to be providing and obviously this is the forum were you asked for any of these categories of information that's what i'm i'm not sure on i don't know whether i was given
00:26:17 sure on i don't know whether i was given the list or whether i was told you know what have you got that you think is useful i don't remember right you see you see what's missing from it is any suggestion of surprise
00:26:30 is any suggestion of surprise or shock that the building was burning in the light of the assurance that you say simon lawrence gave both you and to david gibson
00:26:41 would you like would you like to break for a bit right the right sir five minutes
01:03:12 right would you ask ms williams to come back in please
01:03:29 now miss williams do you feel able to carry on
01:03:33 carry on i would like to carry on yes i'm sure you would when i look we'll have another break uh at about noon
01:03:40 noon in any event yes and if at any stage you feel that you need to take another break would you just make that clear to me and we'll give you time thank you all right okay all right yes
01:03:51 thank you all right okay all right yes all right
01:03:52 all right miss williams i i was showing you a document and i was about to ask you a question about it what i'm going to do i think is park that question i'm going to come
01:04:03 park that question i'm going to come back to it then we can get on to something that's perhaps a little bit less a little bit less upsetting thank you um spreadsheets that might help um can i
01:04:15 spreadsheets that might help um can i take you to day 54 page 92 please and go to line 22.
01:04:26 please and go to line 22. and at the bottom of the page page 19 page
01:04:30 page 92 uh
01:04:33 92 uh we're talking about roles and you and i ask you a question do you think at that time september 2013 just so to help you before the july 2014
01:04:45 just so to help you before the july 2014 formal contract artelia was the employer's agent on the grenfell tower project yes what gave you to think that and then over the page you say there was a spreadsheet with roles and
01:04:56 there was a spreadsheet with roles and the fee figures against it and then if you stick on page 93 and go a little bit lower down you can see at line 18 i asked the
01:05:07 you can see at line 18 i asked the question
01:05:08 question did you know at that stage in your exercise of the function of monitoring the budget who the tmo had retained as its professionals at that date on the grenfell tower project answer yes because there was a figure
01:05:19 answer yes because there was a figure for works
01:05:20 for works and then there were several consultants named in a figure against their name can you remember who the consultants were and then over to page 94 it would be the ones who i believe went on well did go on with the project so it was artelia curtin's studio e and
01:05:33 it was artelia curtin's studio e and there was a couple of odd ones that i don't know where they came from and i never heard of them since what about x over i don't know whether x over on that i put them on subsequent but initially i don't know that they were on there
01:05:47 don't know that they were on there now you also i think said that you would email a version of this spreadsheet periodically to magnum novak is that right yes and then you would save the version on your directory
01:05:58 save the version on your directory yes yes yes um now we may and this is where i think i need your help have found a version of that document within the tma documents can i
01:06:10 documents can i go please to the native version of
01:06:16 tm00854806
01:06:30 tmo double zero eight five four eight zero six
01:06:36 and this is uh the spreadsheet or a spreadsheet we can see and if we look at the top of it
01:06:43 it we can see that
01:06:48 it's entitled management consultant project cost record project grenfell tower regeneration you see that yes and then along the bottom there are a number of tabs
01:07:00 bottom there are a number of tabs design team management survey consultants other costs and staff costs and then overall project fees and survey and
01:07:08 and claire's costs now the claire's costs column is that yours it would be yes so is this a spreadsheet you recognize um that the close comment cost is a tab it's not a column it's a
01:07:19 cost is a tab it's not a column it's a tab you're quite right uh although it's not it's not in a color so
01:07:25 so i thought it might be a column but it's you say it's a tab so it can be opened up
01:07:28 up right um was this the spreadsheet you were describing yesterday in the examination i showed you from the transcript um would i be able to see the one that
01:07:39 um would i be able to see the one that says overall project fees and survey yes i'm sure that can be clicked on and opened
01:07:48 and closed cost could i look at that please
01:07:54 yes yes yeah this is an example yes this is what i was talking about right i see so so would you have responsibility for making the
01:08:05 have responsibility for making the inputs into all of these columns or just declares costs column all of them i don't know if this was the latest version but i would input into all of them and then
01:08:16 i would input into all of them and then i had a separate um folder called invoices so the invoices would then match to the figures in the um columns right um well let's just
01:08:29 columns right um well let's just take it in stages then um if we go to the first tab where we've where we very first started off i think which is there thank you uh we can see that the
01:08:41 there thank you uh we can see that the project manager was paul dunkerton yes and the budget holder was mark anderson yeah now does that tell us that this document started its life before you arrived at the tmo
01:08:52 the tmo yes now
01:08:56 yes now we may be able to date this document if we go to claire's costs
01:09:02 at the top of column e we can see 30th of november 2015. does that tell us that this is when you first saw it or is it this the last version of the
01:09:14 is it this the last version of the document or just one in a middle run do you know possibly one towards the end because it says no further costs isn't it the yellow columns that indicate no further costs so it was one
01:09:25 indicate no further costs so it was one toward november 15 so it was at that time point in time yes i'm not representing to you miss williams this is the only version that we have but but given that you
01:09:37 that we have but but given that you mentioned this yesterday we've been doing some researches and this is one we have found and there there may very well be others from other dates but i am interested in this one for a reason um for a number of reasons um can we
01:09:49 um for a number of reasons um can we look
01:09:50 look um at row six in column b
01:09:56 uh you can see there it says dda and then a-s-s-m-t hyphen bonnet what is that do you know
01:10:11 no i don't i don't know whether it was done before my time if it was done subsequent because i said i thought there was somebody called jane so i don't know if this was before my
01:10:22 so i don't know if this was before my time or um as part of the the later scheme right well you were certainly there in november 2015 and so can we take you that this is one of those
01:10:33 that this is one of those spreadsheets on which you would have worked so you would have seen at the time it was a cost that was attributable to the project yes yeah and and therefore when you saw this and worked on it at that time
01:10:46 saw this and worked on it at that time you i imagine must have seen dda assmt bonnet yes but you can't help with that there's a figure paid to date
01:10:57 figure paid to date of 1 690 pounds yes do you know what that was for no i'm afraid i don't it looks as if something in in that order was paid in respect of a dda and maybe ssmt means
01:11:12 in respect of a dda and maybe ssmt means assessment you tell me yes no i agree with you there may be an invoice in my own voice folder but i don't actually remember you don't remember right can we look at row 29 now
01:11:24 same page and can i just interrupt you to ask is some bonnet likely to be a person's name or possibly
01:11:31 possibly a reference to some consultants no i don't remember the name at all i'm afraid all right thank you okay um can we look please at row 29
01:11:43 okay um can we look please at row 29 under surveys and there you can see x over fire strategy with the figures 926
01:11:51 926 sorry 9 286 pounds paid to date as the total due for the project as at that date and then under column g it says need more fire
01:12:02 under column g it says need more fire strat work for strategy work did you enter that i believe it's a column i inserted yes yes does that tell us that at this time
01:12:15 yes does that tell us that at this time at least november 15 you knew that xover's work was incomplete um because i was yes expecting no more costs against it but i assumed it would come
01:12:26 come via uh ryden if there was any more work outstanding well can you help us what does need most fire strategy work mean i was probably just thinking we need
01:12:40 i was probably just thinking we need more
01:12:41 more there will be more work but it won't be attributable to the project it won't be appear on my costs you need more work but it won't be attributable
01:12:52 more work but it won't be attributable to the project why do you say that um in terms of
01:12:55 terms of the cost because as you we've talked about previously um x over would be employed by ryden so i would not have any more cost to pay
01:13:06 so i would not have any more cost to pay to x over
01:13:08 to x over now i can see that the what had been paid to date the 9 286 pounds was the total due for the project but you've added need more fire strategy
01:13:20 you've added need more fire strategy work
01:13:22 work and that's presumably over and above what had been invoiced and paid what was the first strategy work that you thought you needed more of i don't know whether that comment was
01:13:34 i don't know whether that comment was put in in early days and i hadn't revisited
01:13:37 revisited but as this is budgetary this is just saying that there will be no more cost to the project from it's over you said at line four just on the last
01:13:49 you said at line four just on the last page of the transcript that you believe it's a column that you inserted yes so can you tell us of more about the circumstances in which you inserted the comment need more fire strategy work
01:14:01 strategy work it could be that i put it in early doors i don't remember in early doors would have been september 2013
01:14:11 after september 2013 yes it could have been 2013 could have been 2014. right do you remember when you first started making inputs into this spreadsheet
01:14:24 i started in september so i would have thought by october i would have been looking at it right can you remember what it was that prompted you or led you to think
01:14:35 that prompted you or led you to think that you needed more fire strategy work done
01:14:39 done no i don't remember the context for that comment i'm afraid did it ever get updated
01:14:49 i believed there would have been one at practical completion sorry do you want to finish your answer no sorry no that's all right did you
01:15:00 no sorry no that's all right did you ever
01:15:01 ever close out the need for more fire strategy work
01:15:07 as an item in terms of budget this records that there's no more cost to come
01:15:15 to come but i say i don't know the date of that comment and i don't know what what it meant did you ever talk to anybody within the tmo or ryden or artelia
01:15:27 or ryden or artelia about having more fire strategy work done
01:15:37 no no i don't think so
01:15:50 why didn't you see to a conclusion the need that you've identified here
01:16:00 this comment could have been put in any time in 14 15 it was
01:16:08 15 it was a comment that may have related to an earlier stage where there were more fees outstanding it could be something i should have taken out because the fee as you see was
01:16:19 taken out because the fee as you see was completed
01:16:22 so i can't account for why it's there now and i can't remember why i put it in the first place unless it was to nudge me at an earlier stage that more fee was outstanding well it doesn't say anything about fees
01:16:36 well it doesn't say anything about fees it actually says need more fire strategy wk which i assume is work
01:16:42 work yeah and i assume that the earlier version of this would say in the third column total due for project whereas it says nine
01:16:52 nine to whatever it says eight six under the paid to date it may have only had six thousand so that would have that was just saying it needs a little bit more work that's why there's an
01:17:04 work that's why there's an outstanding amount of fee so the work just to be clear are you telling us that what was needed was more work by you on the fire strategy figures
01:17:15 work by you on the fire strategy figures or more work done by the fire strategy consultant this this whole spreadsheet is budgetary so what i would do is the purpose of the
01:17:27 so what i would do is the purpose of the two columns as you understand is to look at what the total for the project would be and what we've paid to date so it just gave me an indication of what was outstanding so that if an invoice arrived that was
01:17:39 so that if an invoice arrived that was not within these figures i would then go back and interrogate it so this says to me that at an earlier stage
01:17:47 stage i would know what the total um cost for x over would be which is the 9 000 figure but the the paid to date figure
01:17:56 figure may not have been at that as i say it could have been four thousand five thousand
01:18:00 thousand and it would just say we need more work that's why that that total amount is in there it's um it's a little bit simplistic but that is the way that i would do it just as a
01:18:12 the way that i would do it just as a nudge to myself that that was the difference um between the two and obviously it's probably fairly clear but that that was the way i did it by this time of course
01:18:23 time of course this is november 2015 the uh fire strategy for grenfell tower the uh the outlet the outline fire safety strategy issue three was
01:18:34 fire safety strategy issue three was more than two years old you can see here that the budget had been
01:18:39 been exhausted and paid what was it that needed more work
01:18:47 i reiterate this is a budgetary spreadsheet it wasn't a workload spreadsheet i believe that this comment related to an earlier stage where the total fee hadn't been expended
01:19:01 where the total fee hadn't been expended and so it was just prompting me that there was more work to be done why come november 2015 then didn't you remove the phrase need more fire strategy work
01:19:12 phrase need more fire strategy work that's what you would have done on reviewing it yes no i i
01:19:21 i wonder having seen yesterday's paperwork that their fee was about eight thousand
01:19:25 thousand six so i wonder if they added an extra invoice in and i might have put a comment in to show that
01:19:33 show that that was why it was there right just going back to line six d-d-a-a-s-s-m-t bonnet does the name david bonnet associates mean anything to you
01:19:45 associates mean anything to you no right
01:19:51 no right um can we then go back to where we were yesterday when we broke uh and we were looking at the appointment of john rowan partners um tmo one triple zero
01:20:04 um tmo one triple zero six two double zero please tmo one triple zero six two double zero
01:20:12 we looked at the itt yesterday ms williams and now we're going to look at the appointment letter um that we sent that you sent to gerdle verde
01:20:21 verde and again we looked at that um i think you told us you had no part in writing it
01:20:30 and can i just revisit the question that you answered i think yesterday afternoon what was it in general terms that led you to pick jrp over the other bidder in
01:20:41 jrp over the other bidder in circumstances where the price was almost identical
01:20:46 identical given the disappointing experience that jrp had had with cladding i don't know what disappointing experience jrp had had with claddy well if you go to page two we looked at this
01:20:57 if you go to page two we looked at this yesterday afternoon there was the feedback do you remember yeah yeah that's quite all right and you say
01:21:02 say what he said at point two in the first paragraph three lines down that it was slightly disappointing that there's limited detail of his experience of cladding works my question was what in in those
01:21:13 my question was what in in those circumstances why did you pick jrp as clerk of works uh as opposed to the other bidder do you remember
01:21:21 remember um no i know we went through the process i know
01:21:24 i know jenny and i evaluated them both i
01:21:31 no i'm sorry i think it was a process but so i don't remember much about the other tendra because obviously i worked with these people from then on so i i was aware of them but i don't remember the other
01:21:42 them but i don't remember the other people at all so i'm afraid i can't help right um moving forward in time then i think it's right that on the 16th of september 2014 you had a meeting with genre and partners and uh at that
01:21:55 with genre and partners and uh at that meeting
01:21:56 meeting well do you recall a meeting on that date or around that date with them which year 2014 16th of september 2014. [Applause]
01:22:07 [Applause] um i did meet with them i'm not clear which date but right now john white gave evidence and just for
01:22:14 for our record it's day 42 page 133 line two but at this meeting tmo provided the formal brief to the clerk of works
01:22:25 clerk of works and you told them he said what you wanted them to do during their appointment do you remember a meeting of that kind yes right and do you agree that at that meeting you discussed the specific tasks
01:22:37 meeting you discussed the specific tasks the tasks that you wanted genre and partners to perform yes and would you agree that that was in in essence a meeting that set out the scope of john rowan partners role
01:22:48 scope of john rowan partners role or at least provided more clarity on that role yes and it set up the communication between the parties yes yes now let's look at the notes of that meeting that we have
01:22:59 meeting that we have at jrp 60332 and i'd like to go to page two in that email run there which is
01:23:10 email run there which is an email from you uh on the 18th of september 2014 to louis zarrar if that's how you pronounce it and tell me if that's wrong you say
01:23:21 and tell me if that's wrong you say louie it was good to meet you and our two new clerks of works on tuesday and then four lines down in the first paragraph you say you
01:23:32 down in the first paragraph you say you have a copy of the project program which is due to complete 4th september 2015 i said that i would like to skew the number of days potentially for each clerk of works which was originally proposed as 40 days
01:23:44 which was originally proposed as 40 days each
01:23:46 each it is likely that i may need more days for the m e clerk of works to deal with issues of heating installation within the occupied flats when i come back with start dates we can talk over how this would work out as
01:23:57 talk over how this would work out as obviously it is programmed dictated now you say that the original proposal was 40 days each but actually do you remember when we looked at the original proposal it was
01:24:08 looked at the original proposal it was 70 days each wasn't it seventh year on m e and 70 on general
01:24:15 um yeah sorry i don't remember but
01:24:21 well if we if if we look uh we looked at that yesterday afternoon do you want to go back to the document no that that's fine i'm sure your question will be
01:24:30 will be my question is why did you why did you say 40 hours here in circumstances where the original proposal was for 70 days i don't know if it's a typo i agree we would have been talking about 70 days
01:24:43 would have been talking about 70 days if that was what the proposal said initially
01:24:46 initially right so you think it was a typo do you yes i wasn't knocking down their number of days having just met them right okay um now
01:25:03 you also saying that you may need more days for the m e clerk of works would that necessarily take time away from the general building clerk of work results
01:25:18 they they had separate roles so no it wouldn't have taken away from the general
01:25:22 general building i see so it wouldn't have affected
01:25:26 affected the number of days that the general clerk of works would have been on site no no his days were again reviewed because of the progress and the content of the project
01:25:38 and the content of the project can we go to the transcript of john white's evidence at day 42 page 173 and i'd like to pick it up at line uh nine
01:25:55 up at line uh nine where um you um say um well he's sorry this is john john white's
01:26:02 white's evidence so he says claire williams wanted me to really focus on the residents you know you remember i had 120 flats that were being operated on and worked on and her focus
01:26:11 focus was to make sure the residents to me she kept on telling me i mean i was in close conversation with claire williams you know many days and she often asked me specifically to go to flat such and such to see that resident
01:26:22 such to see that resident so a lot of my focus was really on what she wanted me to do and that was to focus on the residents
01:26:30 now is it right that ryden were in charge of resident liaison during the build
01:26:36 build during the construction yes yes and they themselves i think had a dedicated rlo or rlos they did yes and do you remember who they were um
01:26:47 they were um it was maxine [Music]
01:26:51 [Music] i don't remember a surname first then it was uh linda prentice and there were two seniors there were nikki donnelly and christina stephanie definitely yes
01:27:02 and christina stephanie definitely yes okay
01:27:03 okay what did you expect the clerk of works to do with residents that wasn't covered either by you or by the ryden rlos resident liaison officers the rlos
01:27:14 resident liaison officers the rlos weren't
01:27:14 weren't technical people they made appointments for ryden
01:27:19 for ryden they wouldn't inspect work they did all the soft part of the operation
01:27:27 operation um talking to people and explaining things if people weren't clear or getting a site manager to talk to a resident if there was any uncertainty and they felt they couldn't help them
01:27:40 they couldn't help them the rlos did a lot of the backup work to facilitate ryden getting access to the flats and to make sure that everybody was
01:27:51 to make sure that everybody was communicated with right given that those were the roles that the rose for ryden occupied what was it
01:28:02 ryden occupied what was it that the clerk of works was to do by way of
01:28:06 of looking after the residents or focusing on the residents yeah so the rlos had the um so the opening the introductory the
01:28:17 um so the opening the introductory the making sure that residents were happy role it was uh do you call it the soft skills the talking to people um whereas the clerk of works would
01:28:28 um whereas the clerk of works would go into flats once the works had been done to check that the residents were happy
01:28:33 happy with the work and to check that they were
01:28:36 were worked unsatisfactorily for example john would be going into the flat to look at the window installations and quite often he would help people open the windows because they opened in
01:28:48 open the windows because they opened in two different modes so the site manager would have explained it the rlo would have explained it but quite often a third time help
01:28:56 time help so john would do that if the resident didn't understand but so he went in to the flats the windows oh we did entry phones as well we put new entry phone handsets in so
01:29:07 entry phone handsets in so um he may have looked at that because it's i'm not heavily m e who would facilitate the going into residence flats or uh by the sea by the clerk of works
01:29:18 or uh by the sea by the clerk of works would that also be the right night that would be up right now alone i see so does it work this way that the the ryan rlas would talk to the residents use their soft skills such as they were
01:29:29 they were to talk to them and let them in uh and then the clerk of works would would do the technical assessment of the work done within the flats yes and would the clerk of works talk to the residents about uh whether they were happy with the work
01:29:41 uh whether they were happy with the work that was done or whether there were any um
01:29:44 um functional difficulties with those works they would they would um talk to them as well in passing perhaps to say oh how long did it take or things of that sort to pick up not
01:29:56 or things of that sort to pick up not just that it was done but they they would try and pick up any other issues over housekeeping and things like that can i just take you then back to the itt the invitation to tender for the clerk
01:30:07 the invitation to tender for the clerk of works that's jrp 6011 at page five
01:30:15 and uh
01:30:19 page um five there
01:30:24 um the
01:30:32 uh clerk of works uh is referred to um in the red as adopting a proactive approach and assisting the contractors
01:30:43 to set agreed common standards etc but there's nothing there about residents that we can see
01:30:54 um in fact the only reference in this document is one about passing on complaints and i think we can see that at the very top of the page in the in the last bullet point on the list
01:31:06 in the last bullet point on the list that starts the page before do you see that passing on details of any complaints or concerns raised by residents or other stakeholders when these are passed directly to the clerk of works
01:31:16 of works given that that was the duty set out in the itt regarding residents did you fundamentally change the role of the clerk of works
01:31:27 the clerk of works when you met them and told them that you wanted to focus on the residence no it was an occupied building and they were always going to be inspecting the works within the occupied flats
01:31:42 they were personable workers and um they did that as they were asked we're now now turning to the reporting we know that john rowan partners
01:31:54 we know that john rowan partners delivered their first report report number one in october 2015. and we can see that as jrp 3050 338 at page three
01:32:09 this comes to you on the 17th of october 2014
01:32:13 2014 hi claire peace finding closed our first site inspection report for your attention do you see that it's very small could we yes is it
01:32:25 oh yeah okay thank you let me blow the up yes
01:32:29 so this is an email from john white to you on the 17th of october 2014. hi claire peace finally closed our first site inspection report for your attention
01:32:37 attention if you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact me you see that yes now if we go to page two in the email run and the report itself i should say just
01:32:48 and the report itself i should say just for our record is a tmo zero eight three six seven eight five there's no need to go to it
01:32:56 if you go to page two in this email run we can see that you wrote to john wright white on the 20th of october 2014
01:33:06 and you say this is halfway down the screen
01:33:10 screen john i have not agreed a start date for you yet and only found out last week that you had an induction i need to monitor the works and your hours which are not yet agreed louis can you please ring me to discuss this john please do no more inspections
01:33:22 this john please do no more inspections until we have agreed a basis for your services
01:33:28 were you concerned about the cost of jrp inspections at this time october 2014 no it was more about the relevance of the service
01:33:41 i believe initially that ryden's first element of works was installing the
01:33:50 the boilers in the basement so that we could connect everybody to the new heating system that was the um on the critical path for the the scheme
01:34:00 scheme so the the the m e works kicked off first
01:34:05 first and i think we might have or i might have
01:34:09 have said to them oh you know this we will need you on site soon but it was specifically for the m e because that had an earlier start date so
01:34:19 so this is just me trying to fine-tune the arrangement
01:34:26 right
01:34:29 when you say you were trying to fine-tune the arrangement you told them in very clear terms ms williams don't do any more inspections until we've agreed a basis for your services this is a stop notice in effect isn't it for john white yes
01:34:42 in effect isn't it for john white yes definitely yes indeed i'm not talking about uh
01:34:45 about uh about tony batty yeah or silcock dawson i'm talking about john rowan partners yes
01:34:50 yes yes now in fact it's right that that the first proper site visit i say proper the first site visit that you approved i think for john rowan partners was in february
01:35:01 for john rowan partners was in february 2015.
01:35:03 2015. is that right um possibly yes
01:35:10 well let's um let's just you say possibly
01:35:13 possibly let's look at your uh february 2019 statement
01:35:18 statement tmo double zero eight four zero three six four please of page fifty one let's go to that just to make sure what we're talking about
01:35:29 we're talking about and a paragraph 283
01:35:32 you say john rowan partners reported progress on 4th and 17th of february you see that yes in their site inspection reports
01:35:44 yes in their site inspection reports and this is this is in the context of early 2015. yes uh well let's go to the first of those which you exhibit is 18 exhibit 84 tmo
01:35:55 two four 00832024
01:36:07 that is uh report number three early february 2015. we've seen that there was one in october 2014
01:36:16 2014 was there an interim report between then and february 15 do you remember you're saying there's a missing number number two isn't that yeah
01:36:24 yeah um i i presume so they their record keeping is generally good do you remember whether there was in fact a site inspection by your clerk of works
01:36:34 works or by john rhone partners particularly between october 2014 and february 2015. i don't remember specifically no did you do you remember when you agreed the fees with them say that they could
01:36:45 the fees with them say that they could then
01:36:46 then go about doing their inspections
01:36:51 no i think when the clerk of works itt was set up it was set up a little bit as an exercise
01:37:02 a little bit as an exercise but what we did we reviewed the works and the scope of works and made sure that their times matched when they were needed
01:37:13 matched when they were needed so
01:37:16 whatever was set up initially was the starting point rather than the way that it ultimately worked
01:37:24 so you we've seen the stop notice that you'd sent him on the on the 20th of october earlier on was there a time when you sent him a message saying now start doing your inspections there would have been yes you said they
01:37:36 there would have been yes you said they would have been do you remember whether there was
01:37:39 there was um i don't have the paperwork to hand and i don't remember but there would have been a time when i said john we'll need you in a week this is because the contractor is doing this part of the program at the moment in
01:37:51 part of the program at the moment in october 14 that the demolitions were underway or you know things that he couldn't have a positive impact on whereas i knew i would need his input later
01:38:02 would need his input later when we started to work in the residence homes does it mean that there was in fact no site inspection between well by genre and partners as your clock of works for general building works
01:38:13 works between mid-october 2014 and early february 2015.
01:38:23 sorry the first report you showed me was dated when it's dated the 15th of october and it was sent on the 17th of october so there was one in the middle possibly not because i say that the works on site at
01:38:34 because i say that the works on site at the time
01:38:36 the time could be putting up the mass climbers which
01:38:39 which um say it wouldn't be one of john rowan's task to watch them put the mask climbers up so it was making sure there was prudent use of their time rightfully can we now just look at the
01:38:52 rightfully can we now just look at the question of inspection by john ron in particular of the cladding and start with the transcript of john white's evidence on day 42 please at page 170
01:39:09 and at line 24 ms grogan asks him did you ever inspect the cladding before the cladding panels had been installed
01:39:19 installed and over the page we can see john white's answer at line one not specifically i mean my general inspections i did but i was never asked to inspect anything specifically before the cladding panels went on
01:39:31 before the cladding panels went on no and then on the same page at one page 171 at line 16
01:39:38 there's a there's an answer yeah and then question line 17 and at the time you were observing insulation and cavity barriers what were you looking for and he says at line 19 generally
01:39:51 and he says at line 19 generally that the work was neat and tidy it wasn't damaged that everything seemed to be the same you know it was all fitted with the same detail there was no damage and the insulation was there was no holes in the insulation the fixings were
01:40:02 holes in the insulation the fixings were not loose
01:40:03 not loose generally i was just checking that there was nothing that stood out and then if we turn over the page to page 172
01:40:11 page 172 ms grogan asks him you say there it was all fitted with the same details so you were looking for consistency answer yes not checking against any drawings
01:40:20 drawings answer yes now is that the sort of check that you expected the clerk of works to be performing yes i was expecting him to look at consistency of installation
01:40:33 consistency of installation right but and but not against drawings um he would have the drawings accessible in
01:40:39 in ryden's office if there was anything he was concerned about but he would also say i know he had conversations with the installers while they were putting the cladding on
01:40:51 while they were putting the cladding on now if a clerk of works is only given one day a week to do these inspections does it not follow that the checking will be focusing only on manifest defects and not
01:41:03 on manifest defects and not anything which would require an in-depth invasive
01:41:06 invasive inspection
01:41:09 yes we've talked about the fact that the clerk of works was an additional tier that the tmo had because clearly ryden had employed a specialist subcontractor who had their own
01:41:21 subcontractor who had their own supervisors so this was another tier so john
01:41:30 white did ask if there if he found that he wasn't getting enough time he would ask for more time
01:41:39 more time and i believe what happened ultimately was he signed off a couple of flaws at a time
01:41:43 time but it would quite often be at the end when there was the finished planning panel he wouldn't actually see whatever was behind it exactly and
01:41:54 whatever was behind it exactly and that's what you wanted was it we just wanted another pair of eyes and somebody who would ask the questions but i say it was an extra layer because ryden had responsibility they had their own
01:42:06 had responsibility they had their own site managers as well as obviously their specialist subcontractor having their own supervisory yes i understand that but
01:42:12 but just understand precisely the scope of what you expected the clerk of works to do i think you're telling us that what mr white is has told uh the inquiry is
01:42:22 is the job that you expected him to do yes yes thank you and you therefore you didn't expect the clerk of works to do an in-depth invasive
01:42:29 invasive inspection no and that you only expected them to visit say once a week to get a snapshot
01:42:39 john would would ask if he needed more time he would ask more time and i don't think we ever said no we won't give you that time right but we yeah we did rely on him and his
01:42:51 but we yeah we did rely on him and his experience to advise as to whether there was adequate time for what he was doing yes
01:42:59 i want to turn to a different topic altogether which is um the relations with residents during the build
01:43:06 build and i should just say before i do that some of this of course trespasses into module three and and there may be further questions on this topic for you later but at the moment we're focusing very much on
01:43:17 much on on the build and where the module one issues come up now can i uh just refer you i'm not going to take you to it but just tell you what you say in your february 2019
01:43:28 you what you say in your february 2019 statement
01:43:29 statement the paragraph 18 on page four you describe your role by saying i fronted the scheme for residents as their tmo point of contact can you confirm that yes can we then go
01:43:41 can you confirm that yes can we then go to your february 2019 statement of page 30.
01:43:47 30. i want to get a paragraph 170 [Applause] and you say that whenever there were any public meetings involving grenfell tower the meetings could become difficult with disruptive conduct from a small
01:43:58 with disruptive conduct from a small number of residents who took over and dominated the meetings with their comments to the exclusion of other residents who complained to me about this as a result you say uh a drop at the
01:44:09 as a result you say uh a drop at the drop-in session on the 12th of december 2013 we undertook a survey on how people wanted to be consulted which showed the majority of people not wanting
01:44:18 wanting did not want formal meetings this was published to residents in the january 2014 newsletter this meant that subsequent consultation was largely by drop-in sessions newsletters and on a one-to-one basis wherever or
01:44:30 and on a one-to-one basis wherever or whenever that could be achieved and were there public meetings that you described specifically about the refurbishment product project
01:44:43 sorry were there yes where the meetings that you describe specifically about the refurbishment project yes they were now we know you started in september 2013
01:44:55 september 2013 and uh you say that on the 12th of december 2013 you undertook a survey um had you experienced many public meetings
01:45:04 meetings during that period
01:45:07 i think i'd been to two three
01:45:13 two or three do you remember when they were roughly during that autumn period i remember one of them was with two councillors
01:45:23 um but i don't remember the dates i'm afraid right um you see in the first sentence of that paragraph
01:45:34 paragraph you say the meetings could become difficult with disruptive conduct from a small number of residents who took over and dominated the meetings etc were you at meetings where you
01:45:46 were you at meetings where you experienced that happening yes you were and were those
01:45:50 those meetings meetings that happened before the drop-in session on the 12th of december 2013. was definitely one before and i know there were
01:46:01 there were several or at least one after right so this is something you experienced firsthand not something you'd been told by somebody else yeah no i'm i was there right when you say difficult and uh with disruptive conduct
01:46:15 difficult and uh with disruptive conduct what do you mean uh like like any meeting sometimes you find that some people have a view that they want to get across
01:46:26 want to get across and they
01:46:29 and they take the opportunity to take the floor to the
01:46:32 to the exclusion of the topic that you want to talk about
01:46:42 and you say to the exclusion of the topic you want to talk about does that mean that
01:46:50 they wanted to talk about one thing and you wanted to talk about something else and not address their concerns
01:46:58 no but what
01:47:01 what can happen in meetings and i've dealt with many resident meetings over many years is that you might get people have very strongly held views and what they want to do is use your
01:47:14 and what they want to do is use your meeting
01:47:15 meeting to express that so you are there to talk to people to help explain a subject
01:47:22 subject and a couple of people then stop the rest of the the group who are there you know in their own time from hearing the information that you
01:47:33 from hearing the information that you are trying to get across
01:47:38 you refer to a small number of residents who were they
01:47:46 different people at different times um
01:47:52 and so with different views over different
01:47:55 different things sometimes we've got one meeting you've identified in the period between your joining the tmo in september 2013 on the
01:48:04 on the 12th of december 2013. so in this period can you identify the by name the number of residents who took over and dominated the meetings
01:48:15 who took over and dominated the meetings as you say yeah the one the early days when the first ones i attended was um it was mr defaun was one of the people who had
01:48:23 who had these strongly held views
01:48:27 and was he somebody who you say here became difficult with disruptive conduct
01:48:35 he was somebody who would come to mind but he wasn't the only person who else was um
01:48:48 so they're no longer with us
01:48:51 we're getting to the time when i thought we'd have a break would you like to take it now
01:48:56 it now no i'm fine but say on writers and to talk about i understand all right so people are no longer with us um and you say other residents complained to you about this
01:49:08 complained to you about this yes did they do that in writing no people would come and talk to me and apologize for our disrupted meetings and who were they
01:49:19 who were they can you name any of them
01:49:23 over the period many people did there were a lot of very good people um so now i say it was common because i think
01:49:35 say it was common because i think there were many people who knew what we were trying to do and they wanted to hear what we had to say but i can't can't remember the names i'm sorry i can't
01:49:45 now the methods of consultation that you used are listed in paragraph 170 in the last sentence there and you say this was done largely by drop in sessions newsletters and on a one-to-one basis
01:49:57 one-to-one basis wherever or whenever that could be achieved now newsletters is this right ah just in very general terms very much about tm or tia the tmo telling residents what's happening with the bill
01:50:08 happening with the bill they they're a one-way street aren't they
01:50:12 they they were put together with ryden's information because as you say people didn't know need to know what was happening next so yes it was an information letter yes
01:50:24 so yes it was an information letter yes they're not let newsletters aren't really a forum for discussion are they they're about telling not listening no it was it was the written word saying if you have any queries you want to contact us here our details
01:50:36 want to contact us here our details yes so
01:50:39 yes so the only face-to-face or opportunities for discussion where you could hear as opposed to tell would be drop-in sessions and the one-to-one discussions
01:50:52 sessions and the one-to-one discussions and the ryden rlos would pick up if there was anybody who had any queries who were perhaps reticent to do it in a
01:51:03 who were perhaps reticent to do it in a bigger forum and so quite often i would go and talk to people individually as they identified them i see do you did you think that those
01:51:15 did you think that those ways of getting information or listening to the residents so drop-in sessions and one-to-one sessions were better or more effective ways of really getting to the bottom of
01:51:26 to the bottom of residents concerns in place of public meetings
01:51:32 yes and statistically i would say that was proven how was that when we heard meetings
01:51:42 you would get say the first one i tend to
01:51:45 to say was disruptive there was and two councillors were there there were probably eight residents something like that
01:51:56 but in the drop-in sessions we would do a morning or an afternoon and an evening so we i think at one point we reached 65 percent of households which is exceptional for um resident consultation
01:52:10 exceptional for um resident consultation usually you don't even get 10 percent you can all be there on a frozen wednesday night and nobody's there but the drop in sessions were held within the building and so we had a lot statistically
01:52:24 and so we had a lot statistically we reached far more people than any of the evening meetings that we'd seen pre or
01:52:28 or daytime meetings even that we'd had at ground fair i see and at the drop in sessions would people come to you at a desk and talk to you privately without others listening
01:52:41 we tended to have the drop-in sessions when we had something physical to show people whether it was the new windows that hiu position or the
01:52:52 that hiu position or the heating layout so that they tended to be focused and i would arrange for our consultants to be available or ryden's people to be available
01:53:04 ryden's people to be available so if the drop-in sessions were in a two-bedroom flat so people could move around freely look at the installations and talk to any of the people from the project team side
01:53:17 from the project team side who would talk them through any queries they had and explain
01:53:24 how the proposal worked yes i see and what would you do with the information that you received from residents during the drop-in sessions and the one-to-one sessions we
01:53:35 and the one-to-one sessions we i collated it and we would then go back and talk about it and see if there are things there that we should be reviewing to change our the way we worked
01:53:47 worked and how would those views then feed into project decisions generally
01:53:53 i i would then talk to my manager david about look somebody said this why aren't we looking at that and then we would take it to the project team was there an organized system
01:54:04 team was there an organized system whereby the views from drop-in sessions and one-to-one sessions would be collated and then passed up to management for decisions or was it done on an ad hoc basis it was done more informally
01:54:16 done more informally right can we then go to look at ryden's role in dealing with residents because you mentioned ryden's staying with this statement can we
01:54:27 staying with this statement can we please go
01:54:28 please go back to page 24 and look at paragraph 132
01:54:32 132 towards the foot of the page there this is under the heading defect reporting stroke complaints you say in paragraph 132 all complaints and issues raised by residents on works were initially directed to writings rlas
01:54:44 were initially directed to writings rlas for progression within writing whilst they were on site i would then take up any matter that could not be straightforwardly resolved
01:54:52 did you instruct ryden on the processes that they should use to engage residents
01:55:00 they had
01:55:03 their own system of working which was in their booklet that i believe they gave to every resident and it was similar to what the tmo would
01:55:15 and it was similar to what the tmo would have done
01:55:16 have done so we didn't tell them how to do it but we were aware how they did it because they'd given us a process they'd given you a process i see was that process of written process where you could see yes it was in in their booklet
01:55:29 yes it was in in their booklet and say i believe they gave the booklet to every resident as well right did you supervise or monitor perhaps as a better word how ryden were engaging with residents from
01:55:40 ryden were engaging with residents from time to time
01:55:43 i would personally witness linda apprentice dealing with residents and i would talk to her every week
01:55:54 and i would talk to her every week if i was on site a couple of times a week to say is there anything i needed to know about is there anybody i needed to visit
01:56:01 to visit is there anything that you need some help with
01:56:05 help with did you monitor the management of each specific complaint that came in or did you monitor simply the way in which the machinery was working
01:56:16 i'm i i would say by talking to her linda prentice who said he was the main day-to-day person i i was aware of what was going on and
01:56:28 was going on and say i did intervene but probably by exception
01:56:34 i see when you were satisfied throughout were you that linda prentice and her team
01:56:41 team were performing their residence liaison role and dealing with complaints in the way that in a way that you were happy with
01:56:50 i was only aware of one complaint which seemed to be ongoing but otherwise i wasn't aware of any issues that they weren't dealing with because linda
01:57:01 they weren't dealing with because linda was a very good r alone what was the ongoing complaint it was a flat where there'd been a leak above and the lady had had some damaged
01:57:13 above and the lady had had some damaged items
01:57:14 items right can we look at your september 2019 statement please at page 19. i want to go to paragraph 83 there in the middle of the page and you say if a resident was unhappy with the response
01:57:25 a resident was unhappy with the response they received from ryden they could initially talk to me to see if i could resolve their complaint or they could escalate it to the tma's complaints process in addition to this there was a housing office within a two-minute walk of grenfell tower where
01:57:37 two-minute walk of grenfell tower where residents could raise queries concerns or complaints so do we take it from that that a complaint could be escalated to you if ryden couldn't sort it out yes and so generally linda would say
01:57:49 yes and so generally linda would say can you help me with this resident and i would go and talk to them right now we heard from mr lawrence when he gave oral evidence to the inquiry that the tmo had briefed ryden
01:58:02 inquiry that the tmo had briefed ryden on what he described as rebel residents and just for our own reference purposes that's day 25 page 73 at lines three to six
01:58:11 six um and earlier on on page 72 at lines 12-24
01:58:17 12-24 that's what he told us do you know where mr lawrence might have got the expression rebel residence from no it wasn't a phrase you used was it no or was it
01:58:28 was it no
01:58:31 the expression itself um obviously has connotations can you tell us which group or groups of people mr lawrence might mean i don't know if he was thinking of
01:58:43 i don't know if he was thinking of anybody in particular it's not a term the tmo would use right did you or anybody else that you know of at the tmo uh ever brief ryden on particular residents to watch out for who were
01:58:54 residents to watch out for who were particularly vocal
01:58:58 i i suspect there may have been a briefing as to anybody who was vulnerable or anybody who they needed to be aware of well vulnerable is one thing but anybody
01:59:10 well vulnerable is one thing but anybody who they needed to be aware of is a different thing possibly in this context my question again did you or anybody else to your knowledge at the tmo
01:59:18 tmo ever brief ryden on particular residents to look out for who who are particularly vocal or disruptive or difficult i think
01:59:31 or difficult i think we would have had a duty to explain the composition of the residents in terms of how
01:59:37 how ryden were going to carry out their works and if there was anybody there who was um going to perhaps cause them difficulty in
01:59:48 perhaps cause them difficulty in carrying out their works then they would have been picked up that would have been part of the um briefing just to make sure that they knew what they were and who they're
01:59:59 knew what they were and who they're going to be working with yes thank you mr chairman is that a convenient moment for the next break yes i think it is uh we'll take a short break at this point mrs williams um how are you getting on mister um
02:00:11 um how are you getting on mister um minute
02:00:12 minute quite well uh i'm not sure that i can be confident
02:00:17 confident in fact i can't be confident of finishing by one o'clock if i can be confident i won't finish by one o'clock but i won't take the rest of the day
02:00:25 the day even allowing for the 30 minute tmo question break yes all right um just wanted to see how we're getting on i'm sorry it's obviously going longer than you would have wished and um yeah i'm sorry about that but uh
02:00:38 and um yeah i'm sorry about that but uh we'll we'll take a ten minutes or so break now come back a quarter past 12 please and that'll give you a chance to get your breath back thank you appreciate it all right thank
02:00:49 thank you appreciate it all right thank you very much
02:01:06 please
02:20:11 yes would you ask mrs williams to come back in please
02:20:27 right happy to keep going yes good thank you very much yes thank you mr chairman uh ms williams this morning we were looking at one of your spreadsheets and we were looking at in particular the reference to the dda do you remember and i asked you
02:20:40 dda do you remember and i asked you about whether you'd heard of anybody called bonnet i may be able to prompt your recollection a bit better than that can we please go to tmo double zero eight
02:20:50 eight three four nine seven nine
02:21:00 these are the minutes of the meeting the grenfell design team meeting of the 22nd of october 2013 and you can we can see from the list of
02:21:11 and you can we can see from the list of attendees that you were there and if you cast your eye down you can see under item 1.2 bs that's bruce sones confirmed that david bonnet associates
02:21:23 confirmed that david bonnet associates are on board as dda advisor does that help with your recollection about
02:21:30 about the role of david bonnet or bonney um they're still not familiar to me but i can see that that is their role from this minute do you remember any discussion
02:21:41 discussion at that meeting about the appointment of ada
02:21:49 no i don't remember i'm afraid you don't no so this doesn't trigger any recollection about the name david bonnet or anything like that no i'm afraid not
02:22:01 or anything like that no i'm afraid not right can we then turn to the subject of artelia and tmo's complaint about
02:22:08 about ryden during the construction process and begin
02:22:12 and begin with art406149 please
02:22:17 this is an email chain from the 30th of march 2016 primarily between neil reed of artelia and steve blake of ryden and at the bottom of page one if we can
02:22:28 and at the bottom of page one if we can just go to that you can see an email which is dated the 30th of march 2016
02:22:35 2016 from neil reed to steve blake and if you look a little bit lower down the identity of the copy ease you we can see that you are copied in on it and at the very bottom of page one
02:22:46 it and at the very bottom of page one and we'll have to go over to page two it says steve we are writing to set out our frustrations and concerns about a number of current issues with this project
02:22:55 project as both the client team and consultant team hold the perception that ryden could and should be doing more in the run-up to completion and over to page two we would like to see this email treated as a formal
02:23:06 see this email treated as a formal complaint elevated to requisite level in rml
02:23:09 rml to ensure those in power to resolve these matters have the opportunity to do so
02:23:13 so at the earliest convenience
02:23:16 you see and then in no particular order there is a list and the list really comprises three topics resource meeting attendance and handover matters
02:23:26 matters now we can see that you were copied in and it's written by artelia on your or the tma's behalf did you agree with its contents yes do you think you saw a draft of this before it went or when you saw it i
02:23:39 before it went or when you saw it i believe i i was aware that it was um on being drafted so yes i may have seen it right did you have any input into its contents before it went i mean there are these things you
02:23:50 i mean there are these things you discussed with artelia with a view to artelia sending this message yes we discussed it with artelia prior to them sending it right and is it true that you were frustrated with ryden
02:24:02 with the slow progress of works and the lack of responsiveness in some areas yes right you say slow progress of works the project was by this point
02:24:13 the project was by this point very delayed wasn't it yes were you concerned that ryden wasn't anxious to get it completed
02:24:21 yes i think we'd been talking for a couple of months about the problems and ryden were not
02:24:32 and ryden were not upping their resource to meet our
02:24:36 our queries our expectation so this was putting in writing what they'd heard at meetings several times right you say they were not upping their resource
02:24:47 resource did you have concerns at this time that they had not in fact resourced the project properly i think towards the middle
02:24:59 i think towards the middle end of the project they they were short of some of their
02:25:07 labor you appreciate ride and do construction management so everybody they employ is a subcontractor and um the clerk of works had in their reports been raising the issues of
02:25:19 the issues of lack of people hitting the cladding there were reports of slow workmanship in the new flats everything was progressing but um at
02:25:30 everything was progressing but um at accidentary rate at a sedentary rate well that was my perception you say sedentary you mean slowly slowly
02:25:41 you say sedentary you mean slowly slowly yes
02:25:43 yes yes and my question again so i'm not sure you've really answered it were you concerned at this time that ryden had not resourced or were not resourcing
02:25:55 had not resourced or were not resourcing the ques the project properly so as to keep it on track yes and hence this email from our employers agent yes
02:26:08 did your concern about inadequate resourcing that you've now confirmed and we can also see from the email
02:26:17 the email lead you to be concerned that ryden might be tempted to deliver poor workmanship or cut corners in order to keep the project on track or within their own budget
02:26:28 budget no that that wasn't something that i was aware of or i i heard any of our clerk of work say nobody had any comment about the quality it was rather the slow progress
02:26:40 quality it was rather the slow progress that they hadn't employed enough subcontractors to meet the program
02:27:05 right can we then turn to the topic of cdm regulation change now do you accept the basic propositions i'm
02:27:16 do you accept the basic propositions i'm going to put to you as follows first of all
02:27:19 all uh until april 2015 the governing regulations were the cdm regulations 2007. remember that yes and then those changed
02:27:32 remember that yes and then those changed in 2015 when in the april of that year the cdm regulations 2015 came into force yes yes and they would they came into legal effect in october 2015 with a transitional
02:27:44 in october 2015 with a transitional period between april and october of that year you remember that yes right and after the 6th of october the new regime
02:27:53 regime under the 2015 regulations was then in place
02:27:57 place yes yes was that your understanding at the time
02:28:01 the time yes it was yes did you read the 2007 or the new 2015 regulations yourself
02:28:12 regulations yourself i had had training on them i don't remember reading the regulations per se
02:28:21 you had training on them did you have any training on the 2015 regulations i believe we did yes who delivered that training
02:28:32 i don't remember i'm afraid was it done in-house at the tmo or was it outsourced externally i believe it was in our building but i don't know who delivered it
02:28:46 when in 2015 did you have the training on the 2015 regulations i'm afraid i don't remember right
02:28:58 did you get any handouts or packs or anything like that that you could refer to afterwards if you had any doubt about what the new regulations meant yes i think that's what i would have had would be a resume and
02:29:09 would be a resume and so i think i referred earlier to the fact that there was in the training there was a review of the old regulations against the new regulation so a comparison right did you ever have any cause to
02:29:22 right did you ever have any cause to look at the training pack or handout that you say you were given
02:29:28 given um yes i would have looked at it right we've seen no documents i'm told we've seen no documents about any training or any
02:29:39 documents about any training or any handouts
02:29:41 handouts yeah can you explain that i haven't seen my training record from the tmo so i don't know whether it would be documented there right um but it would have been something i
02:29:52 um but it would have been something i would have had at my desk it wouldn't have been
02:29:54 have been um something i would have put directory it would have been for day-to-day use so i would have had it on my desk right i see can we look at art 0 406704 please
02:30:08 and can we have pages 2 and 3 of this email run
02:30:12 email run up together this is an email run from june 2015
02:30:19 june 2015 and at the bottom of page two we can see an email from janice ray to you on the 12th of june 2015
02:30:29 uh and it goes over to page three and uh it will start with that one and just to tell you the immediate context of this email miss williams it was that simon
02:30:39 simon it was simon lawrence's message at the end of may 2015 about financial savings on the crown detail reduction in height right yes that's the background
02:30:51 right yes that's the background and at the bottom of page two janice ray says to you uh claire i have read the email of the details provided simon is correct that cdm does require us to ensure that future maintenance is
02:31:02 to ensure that future maintenance is considered during the scheme so that this is facilitated and can be done safely without foreseeable risk therefore in the first instance we need to ensure that we've considered what access we will require on an ongoing basis for
02:31:13 we will require on an ongoing basis for example to install or replace windows for cleaning and or decoration purposes adjustment to cladding question mark access to lighting protection aerials etc how do we propose to facilitate this
02:31:24 etc how do we propose to facilitate this believe up till now the glazing would have been replaced from within the flats etc
02:31:29 etc whilst the cdm regs have changed i believe we would be looking to the project designers and cdmc who have been involved with project for clarification of how access with to for these various
02:31:40 with to for these various ongoing maintenance activities can safely be achieved happy to discuss once we have
02:31:45 we have their assessment and proposals you see that yes
02:31:48 that yes i've read that for you in full
02:31:51 is this the first moment june 2015 when you learned that the cdm regulations had changed
02:32:04 i don't remember
02:32:08 do you think that you were given training on the new regulations before or after the 12th of june 2015. i i don't remember right
02:32:18 can we then turn to the topic of the identity of the principal designer under the new
02:32:24 the new venue cdm regulations 2015. now do you accept this proposition as a general matter from what you knew at the time
02:32:34 time that under the 2015 regulations if the tmo did not point a principal designer
02:32:42 designer then the tmo would have to fulfill the duties of a principal designer itself
02:32:48 that is what i understood yes can we then go to art 405066
02:33:03 these are the minutes of october 2015 progress meeting you refer to in your september 2019 statement and the meeting we we can see was held
02:33:14 and the meeting we we can see was held on on the 22nd of october 2015 minutes are created by artelia and it's progress meeting number 16. you see that and if we go to page well we can on page one we can see you were
02:33:25 we can on page one we can see you were in attendance as the third person down the list yes yes yes and if we go to page four let's look together at item 3.2 and this is under the broader heading of
02:33:38 and this is under the broader heading of section three contractors report and program and uh it says at 3.2 cdm i'll read it all to you f10 expires
02:33:49 i'll read it all to you f10 expires tomorrow
02:33:50 tomorrow am to ensure paul burrows provides the cdm handover promise to the tmo and provides advice in connection with renewal of the f-10 the project team confirmed that the
02:34:01 the project team confirmed that the design is fundamentally complete and then there's a post meeting note pmn under the 2015 regulations if the pd appointment finishes
02:34:12 appointment finishes before the end of the works then the principal contractor takes on the pd role this means the principal contractor puts together the health and safety file or hns file for the client and then in
02:34:23 or hns file for the client and then in bold it says for discussion at the next progress meeting first do you remember discussion of this nature
02:34:32 nature at that meeting on the 22nd of october 2015.
02:34:41 not specifically but i can see what it's saying
02:34:46 saying okay and uh we can see that am is referred to and in the action note as well do you remember who am was
02:34:57 remember who am was that's andrew mark yes but artelia now if we go to well let me ask you before i leave this um the pmn the post-meeting
02:35:10 um the pmn the post-meeting note which sets out what the position was under the 2015 regulations do you know who who said that or who provided that information i would think it would be artelio right
02:35:24 i would think it would be artelio right if you'd had the training that you say you'd had
02:35:28 you'd had by this point then was this something that you already knew namely that if the pd appointment finishes before the end of the works then the principal contractor takes on the pd role and that means the principal
02:35:40 the pd role and that means the principal contractor puts together the health and safety file for the client no i didn't know that but i think the training is based on a
02:35:52 but i think the training is based on a the ideal project it doesn't um with a start and a finish i was obviously
02:35:58 obviously um went over a period when the role and the regulations changed so no that the training i had wouldn't have explained how to deal with the situation we were in right did you in fact is this statement
02:36:11 right did you in fact is this statement correct or was it correct did you think at the time
02:36:16 um i don't know i don't remember seeing it in
02:36:20 it in right honesty okay let's move on then can we go to art four zeros five zero five nine please
02:36:30 because i'm interested in that that post meeting note this is an email from you to andrew malcolm of artelia of the 6th of november 2015 as we can see
02:36:39 see copy to neil read and it says andrew i've just had a meeting with paul burrows in terms of the minutes can you make sure you include and then you can see
02:36:51 you can see a chunk of text i'll read it to you the project team confirmed that the design is quotes fundamentally complete under the 2015 regulations if the pd
02:37:02 under the 2015 regulations if the pd appointment finishes before the end of the works then the principal contractor takes on the pd role this means the principal contractor puts together the h s file for the client there is no legal requirement for a cdm
02:37:16 advisor
02:37:20 now just pausing there it looks from that as if you were the one proposing additions to the note yes it looks to me like i was fed that information by paul burrows at that
02:37:32 information by paul burrows at that meeting i have stated there probably what he told me right let's look at andrew malcolm's reply
02:37:40 reply at art 405067 on the same day 6th of november 2015. and he says hi claire
02:37:53 i can't put the latter red part of that in the minutes just pausing there and casting our eye down the page if we can just scroll up please on page one you can see what's in red
02:38:05 one you can see what's in red and what's in red is under the 2015 regulations if the pd appointment finishes before the end of the works then the principal contractor takes on the pd
02:38:16 takes on the pd role this means the principal contractor puts together the h file for the client going back to andrew malcolm's email at the top of the page then please he he says i can't put the latter read part of that in the minutes
02:38:27 of that in the minutes that is not an accurate account of the meeting i will put it in as a pmn for discussion at the next meeting and we can minute it at the next meeting we did not agree that the contractor pulls together the file
02:38:39 pulls together the file in the meeting now it looks from that as if you were trying to get something minuted that wasn't even discussed let alone agreed at the 22nd of october 2015 meeting
02:38:50 at the 22nd of october 2015 meeting is that correct i was trying to make the situation clear to everybody but i believe the paragraph i or the information i put in there is what paul burrows had told me so it was
02:39:02 what paul burrows had told me so it was supposed to be informed information which would guide how we were dealing with that issue well that's not quite right is it miss williams your email
02:39:13 miss williams your email to andrew malcolm on the 6th of november had asked him can you make sure you include a chunk of text
02:39:20 text and he wasn't prepared to put in the text
02:39:24 text which was not something which was discussed at the meeting itself isn't that right yes and his way of putting it in was appropriate definitely yes i mean you were trying to make a
02:39:35 yes i mean you were trying to make a printed record of something which wasn't discussed at the meeting weren't you i was trying to raise it as an issue and as you say it wasn't a minute
02:39:43 minute it was a note for information well you with respect again that's not quite right you weren't trying to raise it as a minute you were trying to insert something into the minutes as a record of the
02:39:54 record of the what was discussed at that meeting which wasn't in fact discussed
02:40:00 as i say i think it's important that it was recorded what the role was and it wasn't discussed at a meeting so
02:40:11 and it wasn't discussed at a meeting so it isn't a meeting minute i think to put it in as a note for information and discussion is the best way to deal with it yes yes and you didn't you didn't do that you wanted him to include it in the minutes
02:40:21 minutes not just put it in as a discussion note for later so i'm glad he corrected my approach and said let's do it this way because that was the right way to do it right okay
02:40:34 right okay uh
02:40:40 we then move on to the question of the appointment of a principal designer and i want to look at first of all when it was that you know you're new that one was needed um can we
02:40:52 you're new that one was needed um can we go to art 40s 4399 please [Music]
02:41:00 this is well do you recognize this document or at least this kind of document yes you do what is it it's the f10 telling the health and safety executive we're on
02:41:12 the health and safety executive we're on site
02:41:13 site yes uh and this is the f10 health and safety notification form uh for the grenfell tower project and you can see that it says date submitted 20th of july 2015. do you see that on
02:41:24 20th of july 2015. do you see that on the right-hand side yes yeah and then we can see the location of the site it's an update to a previous submitted notification we can see that it's uh
02:41:37 notification we can see that it's uh grenfell in kensington and chelsea refurbishment and there's a description of the construction of the work and then underneath that it says about those involved in the project halfway
02:41:49 those involved in the project halfway down
02:41:50 down see that yes and it says roll principal designer name artelia email colin james at artelia
02:42:01 email colin james at artelia you see that yes
02:42:04 did you see this form when it came yes can we then go to art409321 please
02:42:16 yes can we then go to art409321 please this is an email chain from july 2015. and can we go to start with please to the middle of page three in this email chain
02:42:25 chain this is an email from you to neil reed
02:42:32 do you do you see that yeah and uh it's dated the 20th of july 2015 uh you also send it to simon
02:42:43 2015 uh you also send it to simon lawrence
02:42:44 lawrence and you copy colin james and malcolm andrew malcolm and you say whoops here is the one i'm asking you to check against artelia are an unlikely designer
02:42:56 an unlikely designer what were you referring to when you said artelia are an unlikely designer exclamation mark i think what happened when i got the new f10 which was potentially a new format
02:43:10 which was potentially a new format i sent them the previous one to say this this looks different and you're now down as a designer
02:43:19 so it was just highlighting the difference because they hadn't said to me there's a new format or anything so i was just checking all as well well not quite is that right because you're saying artelia are an unlikely designer
02:43:31 saying artelia are an unlikely designer what did you mean to impart by those words i think previously the designer on it had been
02:43:40 had been ryden why do you think artelia sorry sorry go ahead no that's fine right why did you think artelia were an unlikely designer
02:43:51 unlikely designer because they hadn't been a designer throughout the rest of the project
02:43:58 and so they weren't the party i was expecting to see on it and does that tell us that you didn't expect artelia to take on any type of role that involved design
02:44:13 yes can we then go back to the email at art
02:44:20 at page two now
02:44:27 where we see an email from colin james of artelia replying to you on the 21st of july 2015 it's at the very bottom of page two and goes over to page three
02:44:38 page three so can we just start at the bottom of page two where everybody can see the email
02:44:43 email and it starts hi claire that's all we get on page two flip to page three and he says this this the 2015 cdm regulations have replaced the cdm coordinator with principal designer
02:44:54 designer and the new f10 uses this title existing f10s will also change to the new format when they are revised as is the case here by
02:45:03 here by to the 6th of october 2015 the client must appoint a pd under the new regulations for all new projects and existing projects that extend beyond that date
02:45:14 extend beyond that date now when you got this email did you understand that if the project continued beyond the 6th of october 2015 then the tma would have to appoint a principal designer
02:45:26 principal designer yes yes did you ask anyone what the changes to the role would be
02:45:33 i i think i don't know where my training came in but i was i was trained probably around this time
02:45:45 so i don't think i asked anybody what the change to the role would be what did you understand that the change to the role would be um i understood that
02:45:56 um i understood that the new principal designer took over the majority of the old cdmc role in terms of the pre-construction information they should be presenting
02:46:10 information they should be presenting and looking at the health and safety of the materials and the workers in the run-up to the project and then
02:46:22 run-up to the project and then that the role of compiling the health and safety file which is at the end of the project um would then be something the pd would take on
02:46:33 take on a pd so
02:46:36 a pd so to summarize your understanding at the time
02:46:39 time you understood that the the principal designer
02:46:44 would take over the role occupied previously by the now abolished role of cdmc yes yes certainly in relation to the pre-contractual responsibilities
02:46:57 pre-contractual responsibilities for design and the health and safety file would also be put together by the principal designer yeah with help from the principal contractor yeah well i thought the only difference
02:47:08 yeah well i thought the only difference was that they maybe oversaw health and safety issues during construction can we go to art 406731 please
02:47:23 this is the set of minutes of progress meeting number 15 uh of the 18th of september 2015. so a little bit earlier in the story and we can see that you are the third at
02:47:35 and we can see that you are the third at nd down on the list you see that yes and if we go to page seven please and turn to item 7.3
02:47:45 we now see uh cdm 2015 cw that's you i think to appoint a principal designer from the tma's new consultancy framework
02:47:57 consultancy framework so is it fair to say just looking at this document that at least from the 18th of september 2015 you knew that you had to appoint a principal designer
02:48:08 yes i knew a principal designer needed to be appointed yeah and was the plan at least as minuted to a point one from the consultancy framework
02:48:17 framework that's what that's what it says what was the consultancy framework
02:48:24 the tmo were or had completed or were in the process of completing a framework tender looking for different types of
02:48:36 tender looking for different types of consultants which would be qs's employers agents
02:48:43 people were doing um principal designer work
02:48:46 work it was looking at all the consultants we would need and going to tender to assess the services we could get right was the compilation of the new
02:48:57 right was the compilation of the new consultancy framework completed by this point
02:49:00 point 18th of september 2015. i don't know did you take any steps to identify anybody on the tma's new consultancy framework who could act as a
02:49:12 consultancy framework who could act as a principal designer
02:49:15 i believe i went to bailey garner who were one of the consultants who um so i'm not quite sure what stage they write presumably
02:49:26 write presumably it was in place because it says new consultancy framework so i i went to bailey ghana to ask if they could provide the role and what did they say
02:49:37 i think they were reticent because they said it was um preferable for a consultant who'd been involved with the scheme from inception
02:49:51 did you try anybody else in light of what they said um i'd already and i'm not sure of the timing of this i'd obviously i think initially i thought that artelio were going to take it on
02:50:03 were going to take it on they kept saying oh you need to appoint a principal designer but they didn't say it can't be us so initially i thought artelio were going to take it on and when they ultimately said no they
02:50:15 and when they ultimately said no they weren't going to do it i'd gone to ryden and to studio e and neither of those parties were able to take it on you say i think i initially thought that
02:50:29 you say i think i initially thought that artelier or artelia were going to take it on but we've seen an email in the middle of july 2015 20th of july 2015 from you where you said that artelia were an
02:50:41 where you said that artelia were an unlikely designer and you told us that that was because you didn't expect artelia to take on any role that involved design so how can you explain
02:50:52 explain why you thought that artelia might take on the role of principal designer i understood from my briefing that many of the cdmcs also were able to offer a principal
02:51:03 also were able to offer a principal design
02:51:05 design and service so i almost assumed that they carried the service across
02:51:12 that's not what you told us before and it's not consistent is it with your whoops email of the 20th of july 2015. the whoops email was in relation to which f10 i attached um
02:51:25 which f10 i attached um yes we've been through that yeah and when i asked you about why it was that you said or what you meant by saying that artelia was an unlikely designer yeah you told us it's because you understood that artelia were not a
02:51:37 understood that artelia were not a designer i had not been involved in design aspects of the project yes but there was also the issue the way i wasn't quite clear on the phrasing of it and the different
02:51:49 on the phrasing of it and the different format of the report which is why i'd gone back and said oh you know it doesn't doesn't look quite right so that was their trigger for them to come back to me and say oh no this is fine
02:52:00 say oh no this is fine but i think they came back and said oh you need to appoint a principal designer
02:52:05 at any event at any rate or at any event you
02:52:10 you talk to bailey ghana was there anybody else on the new consultancy framework you approached to occupy the role
02:52:17 role of principal designer for this project i don't remember i don't think so can we then move uh forward a little bit in time to later in
02:52:28 forward a little bit in time to later in september 2015 and go please to art406502
02:52:34 art406502 this is your email to neil reed at the top of the page there on that date
02:52:44 see that yes and you say neil i understand the cdmc role has now been split
02:52:49 split between the client and principal designer are you retaining the principal designer role and just asking us to get a cdm compliance advisor
02:52:59 who who had told you that there was to be a split in the way you've identified it
02:53:04 it do you know um no i think so you was my understanding was most of the cdmc role would become i felt principal
02:53:15 cdmc role would become i felt principal wrong
02:53:16 wrong become the principal designer part and the client who obviously had to pointlessly appoint the cdmc and then at the end of the health and safety file in place so now i don't know right
02:53:30 when you said are you asked why are sorry i'll start that again when you ask the question are you retaining the principal designer role right question there yes why were you
02:53:43 right question there yes why were you asking it
02:53:45 asking it given that you already knew or thought that artelia were an unlikely designer to use your expression yeah now my
02:53:53 my the whoops email was asking them just to clarify
02:53:57 clarify were they a designer i didn't think they've done any design but there was also the fact that they hadn't said they weren't going to be doing it so i'm just here trying to understand
02:54:09 here trying to understand what what they're doing and what they're not doing
02:54:12 not doing what did you intend to i mean by the principal designer role in that question
02:54:21 question i'm asking them if they are actually taking it on because they'd said to me many times that or several times you would need to appoint a principal designer let me be more precise when you ask the
02:54:33 let me be more precise when you ask the question are you retaining the principal designer role what
02:54:38 what function did you think artelia had before which which they were going to retain
02:54:47 they weren't a designer previously on the scheme but i didn't know whether their cdmc had the skills to do this to do what to become principal designer
02:54:59 principal designer i see so when you ask the question are you retaining the principal designer role
02:55:04 role just so i'm clear about what you're telling us did you mean to ask the question are you going to continue to perform the functions previously attributable to your role as cdmc yes
02:55:16 attributable to your role as cdmc yes yes
02:55:17 yes thank you for paraphrasing yes let's see and you use the expression principle designer role does that tell us that as far as you understood it the role of principal designer included
02:55:30 the role of principal designer included the role previously occupied by the cdmc yes the majority of the role at the stage we were at was what the cdmc had done right
02:55:46 now i think you say that that artelia refused
02:55:50 refused to take on the role of principal designer because their insurance wouldn't cover it yes now
02:55:57 yes now simon cash has told us that nobody at artelia said that i just wonder where do you think you got that impression from
02:56:06 i don't know whether somebody had told me because i know i'd put it in an email so it would have been about the time of the email
02:56:15 can we go to art 406195 please
02:56:23 this is an email from simon cash internally at artelia later the same day the 25th of september 2015
02:56:32 2015 which is the same day as the email we've just been looking at where you asked the question
02:56:37 question are you retaining the principal designer role you see and what he records here in his message to paul burrows and neil reed and copied to andrew malcolm
02:56:49 to andrew malcolm is this neil paul i've just had a conversation with claire to try and clarify what has been going backwards and forwards in terms of what the tmo need to do does this seem different to what bailey
02:57:00 does this seem different to what bailey garner was saying to her what i've said is that the current role of the cdm coordinator ceases to exist as a fifth of october the tma must appoint a principal
02:57:11 the tma must appoint a principal designer bailly ghana are not prepared to take on the role as they say the pd should be involved with the project from inception and as they have not been say they cannot take on the role
02:57:22 cannot take on the role my response is that this situation is not common to this project and many organizations are being engaged due
02:57:29 due to the transition of roles who have not been involved with projects since inception such as the way of the legislation
02:57:38 however for this project her first port of call should be ryden as they are the d and b design and build contractor and as such manage the design process and are responsible for the design
02:57:50 and are responsible for the design if ryden are not prepared to take the p d role on
02:57:53 d role on then the next option is to ask if studio e would take on the role through ryden the cdm compliance advisor role is not a project specific role but rather a client-side role
02:58:04 client-side role and one that we can fulfill advising clients of their obligation under the new regulations and ensuring that the pro their project managers pds and pcs principal designers
02:58:16 pds and pcs principal designers principal contractors are all doing what they should be under the new regulations similar to the role we are offering to lambeth
02:58:24 lambeth claire is not now much clearer as to what she's supposed to be doing and hopefully will now be able to sort things
02:58:30 things out now the first question here is do you recall the conversation with simon cash on that day that he's recording here i know i spoke to simon cash about this
02:58:41 i know i spoke to simon cash about this i don't remember when it was but i did speak to him yes right is this so far as you can recall an accurate record of what he said to you
02:58:52 yes it looks it looks though those the items we would have discussed right did you tell him what bailey ghana had told you yes i see
02:59:09 now simon cash reports here that he advised you that it didn't matter that a contractor was not involved with the project from the beginning do you remember that
02:59:25 no i don't i don't remember it but he's recorded it so he i believe he would have told me right
02:59:33 at that stage who did you think was right bailey garner or artelia
02:59:40 i think i i was being pulled in different directions but i would
02:59:46 would be expecting artelia as our um consultant we've been working with to give us
02:59:53 give us proper advice i see did you ask ryden whether they would take on the role of
02:59:59 role of principal designer i did and they refused didn't they did did you ask studio e i asked them fire ryden i hadn't spoken to steve joey in person for a long time and what was
03:00:12 in person for a long time and what was the response they said that studio e said they weren't able to take it on either right mr chairman we are i'm afraid rather in the middle of this topic um but this is probably a convenient moment as we're about to go to a
03:00:23 moment as we're about to go to a different document and move the story on oh very well yes well we'll stop there then um time we'll have a break for some lunch with williams uh we'll resume at two o'clock please
03:00:34 uh we'll resume at two o'clock please and uh
03:00:35 and uh no talking to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it over the break please all right thank you very much
03:00:52 you very much two o'clock then please thank you
03:01:41 you