Kensington & Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (TMO) Evidence - Tuesday 20th October 2020 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:07 [Applause]

00:00:11 good would you ask mrs williams to come back in please thank you

00:00:27 all right miss williams happy to carry on yes thank you yes mr millet yes um

00:00:33 yes um ms williams we were in the middle of the topic relating to the principal designer in the

00:00:39 in the late part of 2015. can we go next please to art four zeros nine three three six

00:00:50 and this is an email from neil reed to

00:00:53 to burrows on the third of september

00:00:58 and also to simon cash uh claire will be appointing the cow organization jrp who tells me all their cdmcs are simply becoming pds

00:01:09 becoming pds and they see no issue with this transition i understand other organizations are exercising the same approach

00:01:15 approach i do think it courteous for one of you to phone claire and discuss the handover of the role from us to their appointed pd you see that yes um

00:01:26 you see that yes um did you

00:01:27 did you consider jrp john rhone partnership as a potential cdmc i don't remember considering them at the time

00:01:37 time right

00:01:39 do you know how neil reed would have had formed the impression that jrp was available to be appointed as a cdmc he would have spoken to our um clerk of

00:01:52 he would have spoken to our um clerk of works who would have mentioned it so when he says claire will be appointing the cwo organization clerk of works organization did that come from you all from jrp do

00:02:03 did that come from you all from jrp do you think

00:02:08 i see what you mean um i i don't know i don't remember talking about jrp as a cdnc right i

00:02:18 right i say it

00:02:20 say it yeah i i'm not sure of the phraseology there right um my question at line 17 was wrong i should have asked you did how did neil reid form the impression that jrp john partnership was available

00:02:32 that jrp john partnership was available to be appointed as a principal designer pd

00:02:37 pd so what is the answer to that question do you know i i believe he would have spoken to our clerk of works who would have mentioned it

00:02:45 it right given that you were anxious at this time to have someone internal to the project with some experience on the project why didn't you ask john partnership whether they would act as principal designer

00:02:56 principal designer i think it's clear from my testimony that there was quite a lot of confusion about the role at the time in that

00:03:04 in that initially i thought artelia were taking it on

00:03:09 then it transpired they weren't and they suggested that i speak to ryden studio e

00:03:17 studio e and when both of those parties weren't available then obviously i'd spoken to bailey ghana so i i was being pushed a little bit from pillar to post and um

00:03:27 and um perhaps getting

00:03:31 i should have been getting more specific information to help me appoint

00:03:41 given that nobody was prepared to be appointed

00:03:45 appointed principal designer who had been involved in the project up to that point did that indicate to you that it was a substantial undertaking

00:03:57 no not at that stage because the project completion date was nearing and

00:04:06 and the role

00:04:08 the role didn't have any design checking at that stage and it was

00:04:14 was seemingly more about putting together the health and safety file at the end of the project so

00:04:21 so i think

00:04:23 i think i didn't think it was a major role i thought somebody had mentioned somebody had mentioned it was preferable to have somebody who was involved with the scheme from inception but no i didn't think it was

00:04:34 but no i didn't think it was insurmountable if you didn't think it was a major role didn't you wonder why it was that neither ryden nor studio e who had of course been involved in the project since inception

00:04:46 since inception certainly since the contract wouldn't take it on [Music]

00:04:51 [Music] it seemed to be because of the new role that they were perhaps people hadn't been trained or something of that order rather than anything

00:05:02 anything more

00:05:04 more complex well did you did you actually investigate why it was that ryden wouldn't take it on

00:05:13 no i didn't did you investigate why studio e wouldn't take it on no i didn't speak to studio e it was all done via ryden but i i think ryden said to me that it wasn't something they'd done before

00:05:24 before because of the new role so it was

00:05:28 say seemingly people were not keen to take it on because it was something they hadn't done before and they weren't geared up for but it wasn't something that you'd done

00:05:39 but it wasn't something that you'd done before either was it no so why were you prepared to take it on where they weren't because when simon cash did speak to me we talked about the stage of the project

00:05:51 we talked about the stage of the project and that it was the design was completed and i think he gave me the expression fundamentally complete so there would be no design

00:06:02 design input required but it would be the role at the end of the scheme which was

00:06:08 was um compiling the health and safety file did the fact that neither ryden nor studio e were prepared to take on the role nor either jrp as it seems indicate to you that it was

00:06:20 as it seems indicate to you that it was a task that had significant risk attached to it no as i say it seemed to me more that because it was a new role people weren't geared up they weren't trained they didn't have perhaps a

00:06:32 trained they didn't have perhaps a department or people in place who could carry out that wrong right can we go to your 20th of january statement please of page four and i'd like to look at paragraph 19.

00:06:44 and i'd like to look at paragraph 19. you say that it is my belief that had artelia as cdmc and deployers agent explained the nature of the principal designer role and artelia's inability to take on the

00:06:55 and artelia's inability to take on the role to the tmo earlier the tma would have had more time to consider its options in reality the tma was given short notice to find a principal designer the appointment was further complicated by the fact that none of the

00:07:06 complicated by the fact that none of the parties involved in the design from inception would take on the role nor would the external consultant i approached on the basis that it had not been involved since inception and i think the external consultant there is bailey garner

00:07:18 bailey garner is that right yes you say short notice there tma was given short notice to find a principal designer

00:07:26 designer by that do you mean that by the time the 2015 regulations came into force on the 6th of october 2015 you had short notice

00:07:37 you had short notice yes because i believe it had first been mooted as we've seen in july but it wasn't clear that artelio weren't going to take the role on it says it said tiamo need to appoint a

00:07:48 says it said tiamo need to appoint a principal designer it didn't say we are not going to be able to do this it said the gmo needed to appoint a principal designer so it wasn't clear until perhaps

00:07:59 perhaps september that they didn't anticipate carrying on that with that role right um why was was it not possible for the tmo to appoint somebody after the 6th of october as principal designer

00:08:14 i believe when i spoke to simon cash and we talked about the pros and cons that

00:08:22 what was deemed outstanding was the health and safety file which the principal contractor was

00:08:31 was obligated

00:08:33 obligated to

00:08:34 to provide the information for did it occur to you that the tmo could have held the role of principal designer temporarily from the 6th of october until somebody

00:08:45 from the 6th of october until somebody properly skilled with that role came in that would have been possible wouldn't it it would have better say the advice the substantive advice came quite late in the day

00:08:59 you say substantive advice came late in the day or short notice but in fact although it was a short period between let's say september and the 6th of october

00:09:11 october it was possible to extend that period simply by

00:09:15 simply by using the expedient of the tma occupying the role until they did find somebody

00:09:21 that that was never put to me as an option and i hadn't thought of it right can we then go to your 20th of january statement to page six

00:09:32 statement to page six so same witness statement page six please and let's look at paragraph

00:09:37 20 uh

00:09:40 uh six further down i think we've just looked at that

00:09:48 you say having reflected on these events it's my belief that the tma was let down by its professional team sorry i'm so sorry we haven't just looked at this um

00:09:59 looked at this um you say it's my belief that the tma was let down by its professional team in respect to the appointment of a principal designer the tma had appointed artelia as its cdmc and was entitled to rely on it to advise as to how best to

00:10:11 rely on it to advise as to how best to meet its cdm duties there was an obvious delay in artelia formally informing the tmo of the need for the principal designer appointment and of its inability to take on the role furthermore it failed to provide the tma

00:10:23 furthermore it failed to provide the tma with any solution when ryden studio e and bailey garner declined to take on the role terminating its own appointment without ensuring a principal designer was in place now just unpacking that

00:10:35 now just unpacking that a little bit we can when you say let down by your professional team do you mean all of them no i mean

00:10:44 no i mean artelia's

00:10:45 artelia's cdmc team

00:10:48 cdmc team that there was a gap

00:10:51 a gap and

00:10:53 and i would have expected them to have given us advance notice and given us proposals as to how to manage

00:11:06 and in what capacity did you expect them to give that advice in what capacity under the contract that you had with them did you expect them to give you that advice as employers agent they would know

00:11:19 as employers agent they would know that we would need to have this appointment in place because it would be essential for the contract so you say that that was part of their

00:11:30 so you say that that was part of their obligations as a employer's agent to you yes to find shortfalls if there are any shortfalls in the professional appointments to highlight that to us was that something in your mind at the time that they had

00:11:43 in your mind at the time that they had contractual obligations as employers agent

00:11:45 agent to give you advice about becoming or finding somebody to become a principal designer yes and we'd had a long-standing relationship with them so yes i would

00:11:57 relationship with them so yes i would expect them to provide professional advice did they know that you were expecting them to do that in the in their role under the contract as employers agent i believe they were

00:12:09 i believe they were competent employers agents and would understand that that was one of the areas that they needed to manage

00:12:17 manage and you go on to say in the

00:12:24 let me just follow that up a little bit you say that you believe they were competent employers agents and that they would understand that does that tell us that you didn't actually have

00:12:33 have a an express conversation with artelia and in particular artelia in their role as employers agent and say as employers agent you are required to

00:12:45 as employers agent you are required to advise us

00:12:46 advise us as to uh the appointment of a principal designer please do so

00:12:54 no i believe it first came out through the email you showed me where neil reed sent on an f10 yes so neil reed was aware of

00:13:03 aware of the obligation

00:13:07 sorry i've lost your question no my question was whether there was an express conversation in which you pointed out to them that you were expecting them to comply with a contractual obligation as employers agent to advise you as to the role of

00:13:19 agent to advise you as to the role of principal designer no there wasn't an express conversation but the conversation i believe started with the f10 that neil reed sent to me in july did it occur to you

00:13:31 sent to me in july did it occur to you at the time to check the terms of the contract that you had with artelia just to make sure in your mind that you were entitled to look to them for that advice no but they were also appointed as cdmc

00:13:43 no but they were also appointed as cdmc so i would expect that either of those roles within artelia could have provided the professional advice well you just you just moved across to cdmc and i'd asked you and you said employer's agent and my question was

00:13:55 employer's agent and my question was focused on employers age and let's take it in stages because you've introduced a new idea my question one more time did it occur to you at the time to check the terms of the contract that you had with artelia

00:14:08 the contract that you had with artelia to make sure that in your mind you were entitled to look to them for advice that was in the context of them acting as an employer's agent no i didn't refer to their contract

00:14:19 no i didn't refer to their contract and what about the parts of the contract which dealt with their obligations as cdmc did you look back at the contract to satisfy yourself that they had those obligations under that part of the contract no i didn't but again we had a

00:14:30 contract no i didn't but again we had a long-standing contract uh relationship with them they were managing that contract and i would be expecting them um to make sure that there were no

00:14:43 um to make sure that there were no deficiencies

00:14:46 now you say in your statement

00:14:49 excuse me in the second sentence that the tma had appointed artelia as its cdmc and was entitled to rely on it to advise as to how best to meet its cdm duties

00:14:59 duties did you have people within the tmo who were responsible for the tmos compliance with health and safety law generally

00:15:07 generally yes you did and was that janice ray and her team yes yeah did you ask janice ray's team in-house

00:15:15 in-house what you should do in respect of the grenfell tower project to comply with the cdm regulations as they now came into force in october 2015. no was that

00:15:27 2015. no was that because i i had consultants who i felt were competent and should be advising us as a matter of course right would you agree that any decision about how the tmo should

00:15:39 any decision about how the tmo should reach its regulatory obligations was properly a decision in the end for the tmo

00:15:48 we would have to ultimately decide but upon advice from those in the best place yes and would you accept that the most that artelia

00:15:58 artelia would do or were obliged to do was to advise you as to your options as they now stood in the light of the new 2015 regulations

00:16:09 in the light of the new 2015 regulations yes if they'd provided us with options that would that would have been a way forward

00:16:14 forward you say in the last sentence that it that's artelia failed to provide the tma with any solution when ryden studio ian bailey ghana declined to take on the role etc are you saying there to

00:16:27 on the role etc are you saying there to be clear that you thought that the time that it was artelia's role responsibility to find a solution when the legislation changed it was their

00:16:38 it was their role

00:16:39 role to

00:16:41 to advise us as to how we would need to manage the new regulations yes i see that's what you you thought at the time did you think at the time when you wrote this statement that artelia

00:16:54 wrote this statement that artelia was supposed to fill this appointment for you

00:16:58 for you they were supposed to advi i would expect them to advise us what the options were yes but not actually to take on the role

00:17:09 yes but not actually to take on the role um

00:17:11 um that they might have taken on the role because say i believe some people had and we've just seen that jrp's cdmc people um were able to yes but they weren't obliged to take on the role

00:17:24 weren't obliged to take on the role um no i don't think they were i think you're telling us you understood at the time that they weren't obliged to take on the role yeah they weren't obliged no and when you go on in the same sentence to say terminating its own

00:17:37 sentence to say terminating its own appointment without ensuring a principal designer was in place um

00:17:43 um appointment as what can you just clarify

00:17:47 its own appointment that they were the cdmc yeah but the disappearance or the end of the role of cdmc was as a consequence of the new

00:17:58 was as a consequence of the new regulations uh abrogating that role wasn't it rather than any termination by artelia

00:18:05 artelia i think they issued an email saying we are no longer cdmc so they they

00:18:11 they clarified via an email indeed and uh they had to do that because the role had disappeared by as a result of the legislation or regulation hadn't it yes so this wasn't

00:18:22 regulation hadn't it yes so this wasn't a unilateral decision by artelia to give up the contractual obligations it had a cdmc

00:18:28 cdmc no it was it was a formal notification yes and you understood that at the time yes

00:18:35 and they weren't where they obliged when their role of cdmc came to an end to become

00:18:42 to become a principal designer as i think you've accepted

00:18:46 accepted i have but i say at the time it wasn't clear excuse me that they weren't going to because you appreciate they'd issued me an f10 naming themselves as principal designer which was for the extension of time

00:18:58 which was for the extension of time period so it wasn't clear at all whether they were going to continue no and do you accept that they were entitled indeed obliged to terminate their appointment or accept the termination of their appointment of cdmc

00:19:10 their appointment of cdmc without being obliged to ensure that at a principal designer was in place i understand that they formally notified us that their cdmc appointment

00:19:21 notified us that their cdmc appointment had placed had ended but it it would be within their professional gift to actually advise us how to deal with the appointment going forward

00:19:32 deal with the appointment going forward [Music]

00:19:35 [Music] yes do

00:19:36 yes do you recall the email i showed you earlier on about the uh role of the cdm compliance advisor remember that we can go back to it if you like it's the the email of the 25th of september

00:19:49 the the email of the 25th of september where simon cash records the call that you had with him that day yes um do you remember that artelia offered to provide a cdma service yes

00:20:00 yes yes

00:20:01 yes did you discuss that role with simon cash

00:20:05 cash i don't remember

00:20:08 you don't remember no do you recall why that role wasn't taken up by the tmo

00:20:18 that role wasn't accepted by the tmo as something that artelia could perform yeah

00:20:23 yeah sorry what was that it was a bad question i'll rephrase it do you remember why it was that artelia didn't take on the role of cdm compliance advisor to you

00:20:35 advisor to you i think because of the time that i spoke to simon cash that he mentioned about the scheme one option being if the scheme is fundamentally complete

00:20:47 fundamentally complete so that seemed to be another option i i was probably a little bit wary at that time

00:20:52 time because

00:20:54 because there had been a commitment from them earlier to give me a bundle of papers from the cdmc to whoever it may be taking on the pd role and

00:21:05 taking on the pd role and that bundle of papers transpired to be nothing more than the original tender paperwork yes i mean in the light of the fact that artelia had offered to provide the cdma role to you and in the light of the fact that it it

00:21:17 and in the light of the fact that it it was really required by the legislation to give up its cdmc role i wonder whether you're on reflection your criticism of artelia in paragraph 26 is really justified

00:21:29 sorry can you say that again yes in light of the fact as you've accepted that artelia had offered to provide the cdma role to you yes she refused and in light also of the fact that

00:21:41 light also of the fact that that that termination of their cdmc role was one required by the legislation and your acceptance of that i wonder in the light of that whether you

00:21:52 you might accept that your criticism of artelia in paragraph 26 of your statement here is really justified

00:22:01 justified i

00:22:01 i think the conversation in which simon cash went through some of those options was very late in the day

00:22:12 options was very late in the day um it would have been useful to have had that conversation probably in the april i

00:22:21 i i think many of my comments about the cdmc role do relate to the

00:22:29 to the um

00:22:30 um the fact that it's

00:22:33 it's it started off obviously at pre-construction and

00:22:40 and i would have liked a little bit more activity during the the scheme or a little bit more contact and i'd say i think

00:22:47 think it is something that many people do they ring as a courtesy or whatever but i i don't think i knew when keith bush or for example left their organization so i was a little bit um

00:23:02 sort of left in the dark as to what they were doing and um felt that their engagement was um

00:23:11 um not not as perhaps as regressed as it could be

00:23:14 could be can we then turn to the question of the design being fundamental fundamentally complete which is a phrase i think you've used that some of the documents used can we start with art404824

00:23:26 with art404824 please

00:23:27 please this is an email chain between you and neil reid

00:23:33 uh in early october 2015 and can we go to page two please and on page two we can see an email from you ms williams to neil reed on the 1st of october 2015

00:23:45 of october 2015 and

00:23:46 and you say hi i was just thinking about a catch-up with you too

00:23:53 and then you say my top issues are and

00:23:59 and you can see just noting it riding resources i'm still not convinced that ryden have enough resource to manage the scheme to an end and then five cdm regulations as long as

00:24:10 and then five cdm regulations as long as the project team agree the design is fundamentally complete then we believe the provisions within the legislation allow kctmo to request a principal contractor to compile the hns file and issue direct without the formal

00:24:22 file and issue direct without the formal appointment of a principal designer can we get this put into the meeting next week and check that the team agree the design is quotes fundamentally complete close quotes and get this minuted i think that's it catch up maybe

00:24:34 minuted i think that's it catch up maybe friday as you suggest did we take it from that that you knew that a key duty of the principal designer was to compile the health and safety file yes

00:24:44 yes and by early october 2015 about a week after hearing about the principal designer role and discussing it with simon cash as we can see you are here making a plan to ask the

00:24:56 you are here making a plan to ask the principal contractor to compile the health and safety file is that is that right

00:25:02 right yes i think was i not paraphrasing what paul burroughs had told me earlier will you tell me um i i suspect i was getting information from different parts of artelio that i was putting together

00:25:27 now in your 20th of january 2020 witness statement um

00:25:34 um you say that it was simon cash who used the term fundamentally complete that's paragraph 21 if you need to look at it um do you remember that it was his expression

00:25:45 expression i think he was the person who i was speaking to at the time so i i've

00:25:50 i i've that's not a phrase i would use so i believe it came from him yes i see and indeed you can see in paragraph five of the email that you put the words fundamentally complete

00:26:01 fundamentally complete in the second occasion you use it in inverted commas

00:26:07 yeah is that because it wasn't your phrase but his phrase yes it seemed to me to be a sort of a legalese phrase to cover it a legalese phrase what do you mean by um

00:26:19 a legalese phrase what do you mean by um something that would be recognized at a date saying this this is why this decision was made did you think it was a a formal expression that came from the regulation

00:26:31 regulation possibly that's did you check no i didn't check right um you also say in that same statement again miss williams we can look at it if you like that the that had further design work arisen you would have

00:26:43 design work arisen you would have undoubtedly um referred to ryden is that right [Applause]

00:26:50 sorry why are you saying that well let's take you to it if we can go to your 20th of january 2020 witness statement tm00853697

00:27:02 please and look at page six i'd look i'd look with you at paragraph 27.

00:27:09 27. uh you say there in the third line had further design work arisen in the period between the tmo's appointment as principal designer and the completion of the project this would undoubtedly have been referred to ryden and the professional team you see that yes now

00:27:22 professional team you see that yes now compiling a health and safety file is a separate issue to signing off new design isn't it yes and at the time of the regulation change is this right that the main outstanding task was to compile a health and safety

00:27:33 task was to compile a health and safety file

00:27:34 file yes

00:27:36 yes in other words outside design the principal designer still had a very significant duty to fulfill with the health and safety file yes yeah

00:27:46 yes yeah and do you think you should have paid more attention to who was equipped to fulfill that task namely compiling the health and safety file at the time i believed we were going to get some good information from our

00:27:58 get some good information from our ateliers cdmc which would help with that role

00:28:04 what was the good information that you were expecting um

00:28:09 um they'd early on issued to all parties a

00:28:15 a document to be completed and they'd given some guidelines as to what they would expect in that so i was expecting

00:28:24 expecting to see

00:28:25 to see at least

00:28:26 at least that started if not completed right is that the handover pack

00:28:34 i don't know i never saw it so i see that's what i'm saying that they led me to believe they had something to hand over which would have been very useful to the principal designer role but in

00:28:46 to the principal designer role but in fact what was handed over was the information that was delivered pretty much at tender indeed

00:28:53 indeed well let's see how we go with this if you go back to art404824 which is the email run we were looking at

00:29:00 at um this is his response to you from neil reid on the 2nd of october 2015. quick sit rep which i think is situation report

00:29:09 report uh is that right on the belay before we speak later and then if you go down to item five cdm i think this needs to be your call claire

00:29:20 claire uh re-won

00:29:23 uh re-won the design sufficiently read the h s file it does leave the question as to who then checks the file and confirms it is compliant would you like artelia to provide a due

00:29:34 would you like artelia to provide a due diligence role in this regard to ensure the file complies with the ers and the cdm regulations as i think we may be able to to provide a cdm advisor type role as opposed to the pd role

00:29:48 role as opposed to the pd role now

00:29:49 now did you read that as an explanation of what a cdm advisor would do for you in these exact circumstances namely check the health and safety file

00:30:02 i think that's the clear explanation of what the role would entail exactly and here we see mr reed specifically raising the point that if the tmo took on the role

00:30:13 on the role there would be a question as to whether the file as delivered by ryden was compliant with legislation do you accept that

00:30:19 that yes that's what he said yes now ultimately the tmo decided not to appoint a cdm advisor as we know yes and and you've confirmed

00:30:31 as we know yes and and you've confirmed and was the reason w that the design was fundamentally complete yes i was

00:30:39 yes i was when talking to simon cash one of the options that he said was if it is fundamentally complete and no design decisions are outstanding the

00:30:50 design decisions are outstanding the outstanding role would be compilation of the health and safety file on which i would suggest you it would have been extremely helpful to have a cdm advisor precisely for the reasons that mr reed points out in this email at

00:31:03 that mr reed points out in this email at paragraph five no i i

00:31:07 i i was expecting to have a starting point on the health and safety file i wasn't expecting

00:31:13 expecting to be given nothing i was expecting to be given something quite clear which would direct what they would expect in it in terms of the ers and the cdm regulations you see what i'm really getting at is

00:31:24 you see what i'm really getting at is although the design may have been fundamentally complete the health and safety file work which was part of the principal designer's role needed to be done properly here you have artelia offering to do that role but you

00:31:36 artelia offering to do that role but you reject it

00:31:38 reject it why did you reject it i i was expecting when their role terminated that they gave me a handover pack which had at least the skeleton of a health and safety file and some initial information

00:31:51 safety file and some initial information in it

00:31:52 in it but as i say nothing was forthcoming so i was expecting that i there would be a starting point from artelier but a starting point from artelier wouldn't have been equivalent to

00:32:04 been equivalent to a check a confirmation of compliance in the performance of a due diligence role to make sure that the tmo as principal designer fulfilled its

00:32:15 tmo as principal designer fulfilled its con statutory obligations would it

00:32:20 would it it wouldn't be as a cdm cdma role but say if i had the health and safety file that they'd got a way in preparing that it was more than

00:32:31 a way in preparing that it was more than just

00:32:32 just um a standard template that that would have been something that could have been easily continued with have you ever put together a health and safety file for the purposes of regulatory compliance on a project no no so this was the first

00:32:45 a project no no so this was the first time that you had to do it yes and given that you're being offered here a professional due diligence role to make sure that you in this new role complied with this new statutory obligation why didn't you take them up on the offer

00:32:57 them up on the offer because as i say i thought they would have given me as their hand over enough information to be able to do it easily so do it yourself um well obviously the

00:33:08 um well obviously the principal contract would be um providing most of the information but in terms of um finalizing it yes but what gave you the confidence that you could do it yourself

00:33:20 confidence that you could do it yourself as opposed to putting it safely in the hands of artelia who are offering you offering you a professional service for the purpose as i say i thought i was going to get something from them which was more than just

00:33:32 just an empty template i was expecting to get some information from them in terms of perhaps it complies the ers it could be a checklist it could be a something of that sort but it wouldn't

00:33:43 something of that sort but it wouldn't be advice about compliance would it um

00:33:47 um i suspect that they would have more information as to what compliance would mean so that i would expect to be at least in the health and safety file handover i was expecting the truth is mr

00:33:59 handover i was expecting the truth is mr williams that you have offered a golden opportunity to get this right and you turned it down

00:34:06 we didn't take up the offer with the cdn well that's how you put it but is the answer to my question yes

00:34:14 you said we got it wrong well i i i said you were offered a golden opportunity to get this right and you turned it down we we did not take up the cdm advisor role indeed

00:34:27 the cdm advisor role indeed can we then go to the minutes of the next progress meeting on the 17th of november 2015 at art 4051 please

00:34:40 this is progress meeting number 17 of the 17th of november 2015 as you can see and again ms williams you're there identified as the third person present

00:34:51 identified as the third person present on the list on the left and neil reed is in the chair if you note just below the bottom of the page and if we go to page two we can see that the issue of cdm regulations is picked up at item 2.8 you see that the bottom

00:35:05 up at item 2.8 you see that the bottom of the page item 3.2

00:35:08 item 3.2 it says

00:35:10 it says as part of i starts at 2.8 and it's item 3.2 cdm regulations 2015 am noted the pmn on the previous minutes

00:35:21 previous minutes copied here for completeness now these are those that we saw earlier on miss williams do you remember and we read it again yes because it's there pmn under the 2015 regulations if

00:35:32 there pmn under the 2015 regulations if the pd appointment finishes before the end of the works then the principal contractor takes on the pd role this means the principal contractor puts together the h s file for the client for discussion at the next progress meeting

00:35:43 discussion at the next progress meeting and now we come to the next progress meeting which is this meeting and here we see what's minuted it was agreed that ryden are not the pd principal designer under the cdm regulations 2015 the tmo

00:35:55 under the cdm regulations 2015 the tmo as the client are to undertake this role you see that yes and over the minute over the page the minute continues it was further agreed that ryden would be responsible for collating and presenting

00:36:06 responsible for collating and presenting the h s file information in accordance with the employer's requirements and the pci and presented to the tmo as pd now the words present to the tmo as pd

00:36:18 now the words present to the tmo as pd did that mean that the tmo was to be the principal designer at least in name [Music]

00:36:26 [Music] um

00:36:27 um yes

00:36:29 yes and what was your understanding of what ryden would actually do

00:36:36 they um

00:36:40 um would have information that would be required i think we're calling it the health and safety file information but i also think it's the o m

00:36:51 it's the o m um manual

00:36:52 um manual so that they would normally have all the information on um

00:37:00 um they would have the as built drawings they would have information on service runs that sort of thing so that they would be

00:37:07 would be presenting it to the tmo to put together but i say i think we've called it health and safety file information i suspect there's actually a health and safety filer and the o m

00:37:18 a health and safety filer and the o m manual

00:37:20 manual right

00:37:21 right was there any discussion of what you've just told us namely the o m manual so the information including as bill drawings etc was there

00:37:32 including as bill drawings etc was there any discussion of that at this meeting

00:37:37 i don't think so i think this was just the headline i don't think we delved any more into what was contained right was there any discussion of any involvement of anybody else on the

00:37:48 involvement of anybody else on the project team in assisting ryden to collate and present the h file i don't remember there being any

00:37:59 i don't remember there being any can we

00:38:00 can we take a step to the side for a moment and look at the approved code of practice for the 2015 regulations this is hse 703

00:38:12 it's also called l153 do you recognize this document no

00:38:18 no you've never seen it before i i don't remember seeing it before i see

00:38:24 i see can we look at page 81 and take bearing in mind what you've told us that you haven't seen it before let's see how we go but let's let's see the obligations uh or at least uh the guidance about

00:38:35 uh or at least uh the guidance about them this is appendix four uh the health and safety file and the paragraph one it says this appendix gives guidance on the preparation provision and retention of a health and safety file and the actions on each duty

00:38:47 safety file and the actions on each duty holder appendix 5 shows how the health and safety file relates to and influences other types of information during a construction project involving more than one contractor and then there's a question what is the

00:38:59 and then there's a question what is the health and safety file the health and safety file is defined as the file appropriate to the characteristics of the project containing relevant health and safety information to be taken into account

00:39:10 information to be taken into account during any subsequent project the file is only required for projects involving more than one contractor and then it tells you what it must contain under paragraph three the file must contain information about

00:39:21 the file must contain information about the current project likely to be needed to ensure health and safety during any subsequent work such as maintenance cleaning refurbishment or demolition when preparing the health and safety file information on the following should

00:39:32 file information on the following should be considered for inclusion and then there's a long list a to h about what should be in there and

00:39:40 and we can look at the details if you like but if you look at the list

00:39:47 there is matters such as hazardous materials as under d

00:39:54 and under h information and as built drawings of the building plant and equipment

00:39:59 equipment for example the means of safe access to and from service voids and fire doors and then four first sentence says there should be enough detail to allow the likely risks to be identified and addressed by those carrying out the work

00:40:11 addressed by those carrying out the work however the level of detail should be proportionate to the risks

00:40:15 um i know you say you weren't familiar with this document but were you familiar with

00:40:20 with at least these principles about what the health and safety file was and what it should contain yes how did you become familiar with those matters

00:40:30 matters i had had training so i suspect it was in some of the notes i had as bullet points right so the training that you had didn't include you're having sight of this document is is that right um

00:40:42 document is is that right um that it would have been referred to but i don't think a trainer would have given out an 81-page document right did you think at the time that you in particular miss williams would be qualified to assess

00:40:53 qualified to assess the health and safety file presented to you by ryden as compliant with the regulations well that's why i say i was expecting to get something from artelio's cdmc which would have been a

00:41:05 would have been a guide

00:41:08 right that would have been a guide but it wouldn't have been advice on what was actually presented [Music]

00:41:15 [Music] no

00:41:16 no but i think also bear in mind this project is different because we're doing part of the building is new build

00:41:26 new build the rest of the building is an existing building

00:41:29 building so this was quite an unusual situation because

00:41:33 because the health and safety file would only from ryden would only contain the elements that they'd been working on going back to my question i asked you did you think at the time that you in

00:41:44 did you think at the time that you in particular would be qualified to assess the health and safety file presented to you by ryden as compliant and you said you were expecting a guide my question was actually about your qualifications

00:41:55 qualifications did you think you would be qualified particularly to be able to assess the health and safety file for compliance if i had an a guide along these lines

00:42:06 if i had an a guide along these lines i

00:42:08 i i would expect to be able to manage that yeah right did you or did anybody else at the tmo consider whether anybody else at the tma was better qualified to assess the health and safety file for compliance

00:42:20 health and safety file for compliance with the regulations

00:42:25 i i don't think we did but i say this was probably an unusual setting um both in terms of the project and in terms of the change of regulations

00:42:37 terms of the change of regulations how would you know if the file was complete

00:42:40 complete unless you were qualified by the formally or by experience well that's why i was saying that i was aware of these bullet points but i would always i was also expecting to get something from

00:42:51 was also expecting to get something from martellier which would have been um

00:42:56 um more informative as as to if there was any

00:43:00 any um additional information or any caveats on anything or what they would want but um

00:43:07 um so i think it was an unusual situation we had the change of regs and we had so this unusual situation with the building did you ever get the

00:43:18 did you ever get the guide

00:43:19 guide from artelier that would have assisted you you say in assessing compliance of the health and safety file when produced by ryden no as i say all we got from them

00:43:30 no as i say all we got from them in the

00:43:31 in the hand of a bundle was their

00:43:35 their documented

00:43:38 early stage asking various parties to complete their information they hadn't actually had that

00:43:45 that um

00:43:45 um filled in but i obviously didn't know that at that point i was expecting something

00:43:50 something so what i got from them wasn't actually a guide but i didn't find that out till after the

00:43:57 after the regulations had changed could you ever spell out to them in clear terms well we don't want a cdm advisor thank you but we would like very much please a written guide

00:44:08 written guide for us so that we can tick it off when assessing

00:44:12 assessing the question of whether or not the health and safety file compiled by ryden complied with the regulation no i didn't ask them specifically they probably would have referred me to this

00:44:23 probably would have referred me to this documentation well whether they probably would have or probably wouldn't have done

00:44:27 done i take it you did i didn't ask that specifically so why is that because i think they were very clear about their roles we've seen several emails

00:44:38 several emails the last few days about what they will do and what do i won't do within their role um

00:44:44 um but they were a little bit my view slow off the mark to inform us is how to manage the ped role or the change of regulations i didn't have any reason to

00:44:56 regulations i didn't have any reason to think that a conversation of that thought would be fruitful right did there come a time when you ever asked yourself well i wonder where the guide the helpful guide for the health and safety file has got to

00:45:09 i did i think i chased andrew malcolm because i think there was

00:45:13 there was reference a couple of times when i think eventually i met paul burrows he said oh yes i'll get across to you what we've got

00:45:22 got great but then say it transpired not to be

00:45:26 not to be um

00:45:27 um of any substance in terms of taking the skin forward it seemed to have stopped pretty much at tender stage and at what point did it appear to you to lack the substance you were expecting

00:45:40 substance you were expecting um when i saw it or when i saw what paul had at um when i'd asked the question because they say there had been earlier oh we'll pass you what we've got that's fine

00:45:52 what we've got that's fine so i was expecting something and when was that i don't i don't remember obviously we've looked at conversations july september time haven't we and at

00:46:03 july september time haven't we and at that point do you remember feeling disappointed and thinking this isn't what i was expecting i need more yes i was led to believe it was a handover bundle i was expecting

00:46:14 handover bundle i was expecting something more substantial and when you saw it wasn't as substantial as you were expecting did you ask artelia for the substance that you were expecting um

00:46:23 um i think i would have said to them verbally i don't know that i followed it up because by that point they they notified that they were terminating their appointment i think they were [Music]

00:46:34 [Music] feeling that that area of their work was complete

00:46:39 did it occur to you perhaps to go back to them and say well after all we'd like you to be our cdm advisor

00:46:51 no i think perhaps by then my confidence was a little bit iffy but um no we didn't go back to them and ask them

00:47:01 can we go to art mr jenner i'm sorry you may have heard of no i'm sorry i asked my question i shouldn't no that's that's that's fine can we go to art zeros please

00:47:12 please now this is an email from paul burrows

00:47:16 to you on the 9th of november 2015

00:47:21 and it says uh in the subject line do you see cdm advisor yes dear claire further to our discussion on friday and the handover of

00:47:32 discussion on friday and the handover of cdm information for the grenfell project i can confirm that there is no legal requirement for a cdm advisor i'm just pausing there do you remember the discussion on the

00:47:43 do you remember the discussion on the friday

00:47:45 friday presumably the previous friday that he was referring to there

00:47:51 no i i don't remember it do you remember the handover of cdm information for the grenfell tower project that he's referring to there

00:48:02 i don't remember whether he just emailed me the

00:48:07 me the the bits and pieces he had i'm not suggesting that there was a face-to-face meeting yeah but he refers to a discussion and he refers to a handover you can't recall the discussion what can you tell

00:48:18 recall the discussion what can you tell us about the handover yeah no that that's the point at which i believe he just sent me the stuff that had been on the table since since tenure i see so at this point

00:48:29 since tenure i see so at this point you'd had the handover of cdm information that you were expecting from artelia yeah and then he goes on to say there's no legal requirement for a cdm advisor was that and he confirms that

00:48:40 advisor was that and he confirms that that is the case was he confirming to you that that was the case because you had asked him the question i would expect i would read it so yes right why were you interested to know

00:48:52 right why were you interested to know whether there was a legal requirement for a cdm advisor

00:48:58 i know that they um had offered that but again i i wasn't clear

00:49:09 on the status of that and he's obviously said there's no legal requirement did you ask him the question because the fact or that there might have been a legal requirement might have made a

00:49:20 legal requirement might have made a difference to whether or not the tmo decided to appoint a cdm adviser

00:49:27 i uh asked him because so i wasn't familiar enough with the regulations whether a cdma cdma was in lieu of a another role or whether it was a

00:49:39 another role or whether it was a statutory

00:49:40 statutory position so it was clarification to make sure i understood that um

00:49:47 um there was no appointment we needed to make

00:49:50 make legally and to get some advice it looks on the basis of what you've said so far about the discussions between september and now that you had been offered the cdm advisor role had

00:50:03 been offered the cdm advisor role had turned it down because design was fundamentally complete but we're now asking whether there was a legal requirement to have one do we take from that that that

00:50:14 do we take from that that that you didn't want to have one unless you were required to by law

00:50:20 i i think we i was trying to understand the regulations more we're in a an unusual situation i felt because our project went it crossed over between the old and the

00:50:31 it crossed over between the old and the new regs and so i was just trying to understand and get advice from him as as to

00:50:37 to what it was and i see he's put here in the penultimate paragraph that a number of people do use a cma advisor role

00:50:46 role so he's just giving me more background information but as he said there is no legal requirement macy i know i know all that but i'm just trying to pin you down if i may on precisely what it was that drove you to

00:50:57 precisely what it was that drove you to ask the question is there a legal requirement which he's answering and i'm suggesting to you that what was driving it was the decision you'd already made not to have one but you were concerned that that but

00:51:08 one but you were concerned that that but by not having one you might infringe the late regulation yeah i wouldn't want to infringe the regulations and i don't remember

00:51:15 remember talking to simon cash about whether it was a

00:51:18 was a statutory role or not so obviously he's just filled the gap and did we take from that in short it's a simple point you didn't want one unless you had to have one

00:51:29 i i think if i i knew whether we needed one or not that would then inform the decision

00:51:38 thank you then we go on with the rest of the email he lists below where we've just been looking at the five duty holders there

00:51:48 there and then goes on to say a number of local authorities and private organizations utilizing a cdm advisor role to ensure that either they or organizations they have appointed are working in compliance with the

00:51:59 working in compliance with the regulations that i can confirm that there is no legal requirement for this if at any point in time you feel a service such as this would be of benefit to kctmo please contact me as this is something we can provide but i stress

00:52:10 something we can provide but i stress that there is no legal requirement now at this point you've had the handover of the cdm information did you consider whether it was adequate for you to perform

00:52:21 for you to perform the role of principal designer in relation to the health and safety fire that you've told us you understood looking at the code of practice we looked at

00:52:35 so as you say i've i've seen the information he provided on the cdm which

00:52:43 which um

00:52:44 um say was

00:52:47 say was limited

00:52:49 limited and i was looking at whether a cdm may post was required

00:53:01 sorry will you go and ask me your question again i'm just trying to absorb the information yes of course um at this point the cdm information has been handed over to you you told us you were expecting a

00:53:12 to you you told us you were expecting a guide which would enable you to check compliance of what was ultimately handed to ryden

00:53:18 to ryden i'm assuming that after this email you studied

00:53:21 studied or at the time of this email you studied the cdm information that you've got from artelia yes yes did you form a view at that stage whether it was adequate to assist you in assessing whether or not ryden were

00:53:33 assessing whether or not ryden were going to comply [Music]

00:53:39 that's many questions many parts so at the moment you're saying i've got the cdm information from them which i am saying was very limited you're asking me whether ryden were

00:53:51 you're asking me whether ryden were going to comply that that's a slightly different question let's break it down the email comes on the 9th of november it refers to a handover of cdm information

00:54:02 information did you look at that cdm information yes did it satisfy you that it was sufficient to enable you to assess whether when ryden produced the health and safety file it would

00:54:14 the health and safety file it would comply with the regulations

00:54:20 i cannot at this stage say what ryden are going to hand me to comply with the regulations i can see that i've got limited cdm information from artelio

00:54:33 but i don't know what ryden are going to deliver

00:54:38 deliver to me so i can't tell sorry it's just the way the question was phrased i think you're asking me if i'm going to be able to tell what ryden hand me

00:54:48 hand me will comply well at that stage i don't know that i'd actually thought what ridings were going to hand me no i i'm quite sure that that's the case miss williams

00:54:57 williams it may be my fault but

00:55:00 but trying to encapsulate the evidence you gave us earlier this afternoon you've refused the cdm advisor role because you were going to get a guide from artelia that would help you

00:55:11 from artelia that would help you assess whether ryden when it came to produce a health and safety file had complied with the regulations and that's what i understood by our evidence earlier am i wrong about that um

00:55:21 um whether the information ryden gave me would comply with the regulations yes no sorry it's just i'm just trying to understand your question because well let me try to

00:55:32 question because well let me try to totally different way i'd understood your evidence so far this afternoon that what artelia were going to give you was a was a road map a guide so that you could hold it in your hand

00:55:44 so that you could hold it in your hand and then tick off the boxes to make sure that when ryden did produce the health and safety file you could satisfy yourselves that they were compliant yes yes as you said i expected a road map

00:55:56 yes as you said i expected a road map partially completed to give me guidance yes now when you got the handover of cdm information to which this email refers in on the friday before the 9th of november 2015 was the was that the road

00:56:08 november 2015 was the was that the road map you were expecting no it didn't have enough information in it right did you then go back to paul burrows and say your handover of cdm

00:56:19 burrows and say your handover of cdm information is inadequate and insufficient for me to be able to form the pd role can you do better no why not because i thought it had been a struggle

00:56:30 because i thought it had been a struggle with them so far and i i wasn't clear that i was going to um

00:56:35 um get much further so did you ever ask artelia to do better and produce the road map that you expected from them i i think i had conversations that i i

00:56:47 i i think i had conversations that i i was unhappy with their performance on this element of work does that tell us that you never got the raid map you were after and were therefore completely unequipped to be

00:56:59 therefore completely unequipped to be able to assess what ryden eventually produced to ensure that it complied with or enabled you to comply with the cdm regulations 2015.

00:57:11 with the cdm regulations 2015. what i did have was a template i had somebody from ryden compiling the health and safety fire but can i point out the issue with our

00:57:22 but can i point out the issue with our building was that we had an existing part of the building that ryden were not involved with they were not involved with

00:57:31 water tanks in the roof they were not involved with [Music]

00:57:38 [Music] several um let me just think that there was areas of the building that were existing so whatever ryden provided would only be partial information in terms of the health and safety file

00:57:51 terms of the health and safety file because ryden for example wouldn't know about our emergency lighting testing which was done as a servicing contract on the building that wasn't in their remit

00:58:00 remit so ryan were never going to provide complete information for that health and safety file i think that's quite important to mention because the building contract as i say only covered

00:58:11 building contract as i say only covered elements of the building it didn't cover the whole building so ryden could never give

00:58:16 give total information for the health and safety file because they were only involved with certain areas right so that's possibly a complication but i think that's quite important to understand well

00:58:28 understand well where would the information come from to enable you to be able to have a complete health and safety file that would be held on

00:58:39 that would be held on tmo systems like keystone we've talked about where there would be information say on asbestos because ryden only did asbestos removals

00:58:50 only did asbestos removals in flats where they had to where they were working on say the new heating system or something of that sort so the tmo was still doing asbestos removals in other flats

00:59:02 flats so we found an empty a void somebody moved out new person moved in we would have had an asbestos check done at that point that would never have been in ryden's say health and safety file because it was tmo commissioned

00:59:13 because it was tmo commissioned so when ryden took on the role of compiling the health and safety file did you understand that they would be taking on a role in relation to parts of the building with which they had had absolutely no relationship

00:59:26 absolutely no relationship they could only do the health and safety file on areas of the building that they were contractually involved with so for example they didn't touch the water tanks in the loft there

00:59:38 there they didn't do anything to the lift motor which the tmo would have serviced as part of the ongoing maintenance contracts

00:59:45 contracts so when you instructed ryden to to produce the health and safety file that was a limited instruction was it only in relation to the matters concerning the project in respect of which they were the contractor exactly

00:59:56 which they were the contractor exactly and the rest of the health and safety fire would have come from the tma would it yes that's it right

01:00:04 now looking at the contents of the health and safety file itself what involvement did you have in the compilation of it

01:00:13 what happened was that ryden employed a company

01:00:17 company to

01:00:19 to collate their information and

01:00:23 and i met with the chap steve and he gave me a framework of what he was going to produce and so

01:00:33 and so um

01:00:34 um basically i waited for him to fulfill what he said he was going to do mr miller have we finished with the document uh currently on the screen uh well i'm not

01:00:45 well i'm not just

01:00:47 just possibly

01:00:48 possibly no i think now not because there may be a question you have well i've already asked it once but i asked it in ignorance of this document yes but the question to which uh i would

01:00:59 yes but the question to which uh i would welcome

01:01:00 welcome and answer miss williams assistance is this

01:01:04 this you had received by the time this uh email was received you'd received the uh pack from artelia which did not contain all the

01:01:15 which did not contain all the information that you were hoping to receive

01:01:17 receive to enable you to compile or oversee the compilation of the health and safety file you were told that it wasn't a legal requirement to have

01:01:28 requirement to have a cdm advisor but as we can see from the last two paragraphs it was made clear to you that a lot of local authorities and other organizations were using a cdm advisor

01:01:41 organizations were using a cdm advisor to ensure that they were working in compliance with the regulations and from your point of view that might have been particularly important if ryden weren't able to provide you with

01:01:52 ryden weren't able to provide you with all the material required for the health and safety file as you've just explained they then go on to say if you'd like to have the benefit of that service they'd be pleased artely

01:02:05 that service they'd be pleased artely would be pleased to provide it why did you not at that stage ask them to provide it

01:02:14 as i say i think by that point i probably lost a bit of confidence in their service um

01:02:22 that would be the main reason all right thank you all right i was going to come well i'm sorry if i've stolen your next question three but um no no that's okay let in the light of

01:02:34 um no no that's okay let in the light of what you've just said about ryden only having a partial familiarity with the matters that would go into the health and safety file and and now looking back at this document particularly in the penultimate paragraph and the last paragraph

01:02:46 paragraph and the last paragraph given that it was to be a patchwork document

01:02:49 document compiled from different sources wasn't it particularly important for the tma to have somebody look at the whole thing such as artelia

01:03:01 um of providing the services of a cdma to make sure that it all complied with the regulations

01:03:09 the thing about a health and safety file is it's a live document it's not something you put to one side and think i won't look at that for 10 years it's a document that gets updated it

01:03:21 it's a document that gets updated it containing elements of where the service runs are about hazards about cleaning materials things like that those will change they will change annually they could change

01:03:32 could change six monthly in some areas of the building

01:03:34 building so what you're looking at now as a health and safety file will be different in six months time in a year's time because

01:03:41 because the building will have had say areas rewired it will have had

01:03:48 more asbestos taken out of it so it's not

01:03:52 not something that's set in stone it's something that say

01:03:56 say is updated as works are done to the building so having a cdma advisor look at it

01:04:03 at it would

01:04:04 would not help in that area because i say it's a live document it's something you change as you do different works on the building so it's and that's why

01:04:16 and that's why say the tmo for example would keep stuff on a database because then you can update it

01:04:21 update it it's not something you would print off it would be a massive document well i can understand that it's a document that requires updating from time to time um but

01:04:31 um but given that it was a document a file namely a single collection of material that ryden would collate and present

01:04:41 present why not have the cdm advisor assess that document which existed at that particular moment in time

01:04:53 because it would be partial in terms of the ryden information

01:05:01 and

01:05:04 it it doesn't mean that they would look at the whole of the building which is what the health and safety file would need to cover the whole of the building so

01:05:15 so getting them to look at part of the information which would be potentially changing that doesn't

01:05:23 doesn't to me seem to be

01:05:28 a valuable option

01:05:42 did you understand precisely what it was that had to be compiled at the end of the refurbishment project by way of the health and safety file

01:05:54 using the bullet points we saw before as a checklist that that is what i would expect to be in the health of safety file yeah

01:06:01 file yeah and therefore what was the problem with getting a cdm advisor

01:06:08 advisor to look at the document which was supposed to contain all the bullet points

01:06:12 points at that point and advise you whether it met the obligations under the regulations but the bride and information on its own would probably not meet the regulations

01:06:24 would probably not meet the regulations because it was so partial i would expect the health and safety file to cover the whole building not just the lower ground floors for example so and we're going around in circles a

01:06:36 so and we're going around in circles a bit here and i'm going to ask it one more time

01:06:38 more time having got the health and safety file which contains the ryden bit and the rest of the building bit there's a single document

01:06:47 document given the fact that it was a patchwork why couldn't you ask the cdm advisor to look at it and advise you whether that file

01:06:58 that file including ryden's part complied

01:07:06 yes i'm sure they could do it but my suspicion would be that they would use the checklist we have just seen the bullet point checklist but also there

01:07:18 bullet point checklist but also there would be a lot of information from within the tmo that would take a a reasonable amount of time to collate um

01:07:28 um it would be something more sort of a policy type role as to whether the information we held on our gmo database was appropriate for the health and

01:07:39 was appropriate for the health and safety file i think did anybody at the tmo turn their minds to what was needed from the non-riding part of the of the health and safety file to make sure that all that information was collated and

01:07:50 all that information was collated and given

01:07:51 given to the person collating the file as a whole

01:07:56 no we never looked at putting the two parts together to my knowledge right so does that tell us that you never looked to putting together a single complete health and safety fire

01:08:08 no we didn't because as i say the health and safety file is a [Music]

01:08:14 [Music] something that would be updated even from one month to the next we may have done more asbestos work and the

01:08:21 and the existing occupied parts of the building right

01:08:27 right now just focusing on the ryden part then david hughes of ryden told us that he had had meetings with an organization called all group holdings in respect of the health and safety file

01:08:40 in respect of the health and safety file were you at those meetings no but that was the chap steve i met came from that company yeah

01:08:47 yeah yes but were you at those meetings not with dave i don't think with anybody at all group holdings did you ever have a meeting with all group holdings yes i met steve i think two or three times right did you monitor the

01:08:58 three times right did you monitor the gathering of the information for the health and safety file or at least that part of

01:09:03 part of of it for which ryden was responsible

01:09:08 um i i that there was all good were i think this is what their role was they did this day in day out they did

01:09:19 they did do health and safety files they had a number of headings and so

01:09:23 and so um they were due to complete or get from ryden all the paperwork within those headings so that was what i was looking at initially

01:09:36 what steps did you take to satisfy yourself that the health and safety file when it was presented to you was a complete file

01:09:47 i believe that we had several interim i know we had several interim meetings where i was asking where's this where's that

01:09:56 that and um

01:09:59 essentially i was just making sure that everything that ryden had would be what would be in a health and safety file so when you say monitoring i was checking against the headings i had

01:10:13 which you weren't satisfied with that though there were gaps and i think there was quite a bit of chewing and throwing

01:10:23 now do you know that the inquiry has two different

01:10:27 different versions of the health and safety file one from ryden and one from the tma did you know that no right now the ryden version has a section four

01:10:38 section four health and safety file but that section contains no information whereas the tmo version contains an index which we're going to look at in a moment did you know that

01:10:47 know that no right

01:10:49 no right could

01:10:52 would i be writing thinking that the one that the tmo has disclosed to the inquiry would be the one that you would have considered to have been the final and complete health and safety file um i don't know i haven't seen them

01:11:04 file um i don't know i haven't seen them so let's look at it it's tma10013708

01:11:12 is the contents page of the health and safety file it's page one uh and it is indeed uh an introduction record of issue and you can see that and it lists a whole

01:11:23 you can see that and it lists a whole load of

01:11:25 load of of content is this familiar to you yes i've seen this it is and you can see that it's built of cross references to the building manual do you see i mean for example under architectural

01:11:36 i mean for example under architectural design b1 architects as well excuse me architects as built drawings please refer to the drawings located in the building manual part two pci information please refer to the information located

01:11:47 please refer to the information located in the building manual and so on and so forth down the page you see that yes now let's just uh

01:11:56 uh look at that if you look at um b

01:11:59 b one let's try that one um you can see that it says please refer to the drawings located in the building manual part two section two one two two and if we look at that that's a tmo m

01:12:12 and if we look at that that's a tmo m six zeros

01:12:14 six zeros one

01:12:17 one sorry seven zero is one i'm so sorry seven zero is one tmom seven zeros one and

01:12:28 we turn to page two we can see the contents page of that

01:12:37 and if we go to page 9 in that document

01:12:45 we can see that there is a 2.1.2

01:12:49 a 2.1.2 and a 2.1.2.1 demolition drawings but no section 2.1.2.2

01:12:57 can you explain no

01:13:02 can you explain why the references in the health and safety file are to the building manual no

01:13:09 no did you check this at all i did

01:13:14 did you check it thoroughly

01:13:18 i i checked it and there were deficiencies

01:13:25 was this one of the deficiencies you identified yes

01:13:29 yes what did you do about that went back to steve

01:13:34 steve to point that out what did he do about it

01:13:39 it he

01:13:41 he did add in more information but i don't know if this is the final one well this is the only one we've got disclosed by the tmo okay

01:13:52 tmo okay can you explain why it doesn't have the information that you say you went back to steve and asked for and he gave you

01:14:03 no did you really see this through this job

01:14:09 yes i did can you explain how having seen it through and got the information the document lacks the detail i've just been identifying i think that steve went back to ryden

01:14:22 i think that steve went back to ryden and i don't know whether he got all the drawings that he'd asked for it looks as though he didn't mr chairman i've got about two more questions or three more questions on this topic

01:14:33 this topic and then at one final short topic can i continue this time i think the witness thought to have a break before too long

01:14:40 too long but how long do you think it might take five minutes this on this top to finish this topic and then

01:14:47 maybe 10 minutes on the the next topic should we finish this topic and then yes absolutely yes is that is that right yes that's fine thank you can we go to art four zeros five three

01:14:58 can we go to art four zeros five three six two please this is the set of progress meeting minutes number twenty on the 23rd of february 2016 and you're their third attendee down as we can see

01:15:09 their third attendee down as we can see and if we can go to page four please i'd like to go to item 220

01:15:17 and at item 220 you can see next to item 3.10.2 far compartmentation action update

01:15:25 update it says sb met with carl stokes fire risk assessor advise ryden not to introduce or alter any further fire protection works and

01:15:36 any further fire protection works and nothing further is to be progressed other than the remedial works required of the cow in relation to ryden's own works

01:15:42 works cw to liaise with carl and confirm this is indeed the case carl stokes will produce a report in the form of the fire risk assessment identifying any shortfalls which will be submitted to cw

01:15:53 shortfalls which will be submitted to cw on or near completion nr requested that this be included in the h s file cdm on completion as formal recognition of a fire risk shortfall and potential

01:16:05 fire risk shortfall and potential residual risk arising from the building in its previous form

01:16:11 was the health and safety file updated to include any such report miss williams

01:16:17 i don't even know what that topic is so i'm not sure well you were at the meeting as we've just established yeah no it doesn't actually specify anything does it says introduce

01:16:28 introduce any further fire protection works i i'm not clear what that's to where that is in the building well this is an action update item 220 far compartmentation action

01:16:41 item 220 far compartmentation action update and you are the person who is going to action uh

01:16:45 uh this

01:16:46 this uh

01:16:47 uh and then sb is going to be actioning the inclusion in the health and safety file is sb the steve you're talking about no that would be steve blake i assume steve blake very good

01:16:58 very good so these are two action points what was the discussion that you can recall about

01:17:06 about the fire risk assessment which identified shortfalls to be submitted to you then being included in the health and safety file do you remember a discussion about that i i don't remember what this is about if

01:17:18 don't remember what this is about if there is any information which will give me a clue it would be useful well

01:17:26 you have no memory of this meeting i think and you have no mem you can't assist us on its record i i don't remember this particular area and because it's not specifying where it is or what it's about i'm afraid it doesn't

01:17:38 or what it's about i'm afraid it doesn't ring any bowels right

01:17:42 right what did the health and safety file in its complete form include

01:17:47 include on on completion a

01:17:50 a report from carl stokes recognizing a fire risk shortfall and potential residual risk arising from the building in its previous form

01:18:02 there would have been a fire risk assessment with it

01:18:06 with it but i'm not sure what this particular bullet point is about because it says that i'm going to confirm that this is indeed the case so it's not quite clear to me whether

01:18:17 so it's not quite clear to me whether that the point has raised is closed out well did you taking it in stages did you liaise with carl stakes to confirm that ryden was not to

01:18:29 that ryden was not to introduce any or alter any further fire protection works etc i i don't remember if i knew what element of the building you were talking about then i would be better able to

01:18:40 about then i would be better able to answer but well you said i'm just asking you about this minute i wasn't there and you were at the meeting and i'm just asking you uh what it all means you see because this is a written record at the time of a meeting you were at and i was not

01:18:52 a meeting you were at and i was not there

01:18:53 there so i can't help you with that but it sounds to me as if you simply can't help me at all with the contents of this minute

01:18:59 minute i i don't remember what area of the building it's talking about where the carl did confirm it was the case and therefore whether there was anything in the health and safety fire right

01:19:10 right mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is um just for everyone's benefit can you give us any rough idea how much longer you will need not that it matters it's just okay i have

01:19:23 it's just okay i have one short topic to conti to cover that i have a a

01:19:27 have a a a miscellany of follow-up points from last night and this morning which are about 10 minutes right uh so i would think probably another 20 to 25 minutes on prepared

01:19:39 another 20 to 25 minutes on prepared questions

01:19:40 questions uh and then there may be and we've got the usual the usual 30 minute yes all right thank you very much well we're going to have a short break now ms williams we'll come back at 25 to 4 please and again please don't talk to

01:19:51 please and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it while you're away all right thank you very much

01:20:02 [Music]

01:20:05 thank you 25 to 4.

01:36:37 thank you would you ask mr williams to come back in please

01:36:53 all right miss williams ready to go on thank you very much yes mr millet thank you mr chairman ms williams one more uh topic and then some follow-up topics regulation

01:37:05 topics regulation can we go to your 20th of january statement please at page 13. i'd like to look at paragraph 61 and 62 please and at 61 you say i'm aware that regulation 68 38 of the building

01:37:17 regulation 68 38 of the building regulation requires that we're building work involves the erection or extension of a relevant building fire safety information should be given by the person carrying out the work to the responsible person at the completion of the project

01:37:28 the project and then you say my memory in relation to this aspect of the project is limited however i do recall it being discussed that regulation 38 may not apply to the refurbishment works undertaken my recollection was that we were advised

01:37:39 recollection was that we were advised that this was because the works only related to certain parts of the building and specific works but were not an erection or extension in any event i was told that everything that needed to be passed to the tma was passed by ryden on

01:37:50 passed to the tma was passed by ryden on the memory stick referred to earlier as part of the o m manual now aside from any advice i think you accept there that you knew at the time of regulation 38 of the building regulations

01:38:02 regulations i knew what it says there yes yes and did you know therefore that in particular fire safety information was to be provided to the responsible person

01:38:13 yes did you realize that the tmo was a duty holder as a responsible person i would assume so yes did you realize that those were entirely separate duties

01:38:25 that those were entirely separate duties from those under the cdm regulations yes so separate duties from those to provide a health and safety file yes and you seem to be under the impression that this was not a project to which

01:38:36 that this was not a project to which regulation 38 applied is that right i i said there was discussion um

01:38:42 um within

01:38:44 within the tmo office as to whether it did apply but i

01:38:51 but i i generally think um we were going to put all the firing safety information we had into the

01:39:00 health and safety file anyway did anybody advise you that regulation 38

01:39:06 38 did not apply to this refurbishment no

01:39:10 no can we go to ryd3094315 please

01:39:18 uh and the first page we just flip back one page to see the document

01:39:24 document that's dh5 so that's david hughes's exhibit number five and the first substantive page of this is here at page two

01:39:31 two this is a fire risk assessment record of significant findings by carl stokes and it's dated the 26th of april 2016 and i think we looked at this earlier in your evidence

01:39:43 can we go to page three of this document this is

01:39:49 this is a set of the items and hazards and if you look at the item with no item number

01:39:58 number but high priority in other words the first

01:40:01 first item there do you see yes it says when the construction straight refurbishment work is completed on this building all information is required by the building regulations and this is in bold must be handed over to the tma by the

01:40:12 handed over to the tma by the contractors before they hand over the areas now under their control you see that and if you look in the left column along on the right under item 2 it says

01:40:24 documentation must include and then item 2 all the regulation 38 information as required by the building regulations now can you explain how you

01:40:35 now can you explain how you you

01:40:36 you thought that regulation did not apply when we can see here that carl stokes notes that compiling regulation 38 information was a significant action to

01:40:47 information was a significant action to be undertaken by the tmo as i say there was discussion within the office as to whether it did apply i don't think we ever reached a solution as to whether it did

01:40:58 reached a solution as to whether it did or not but it would be good practice to assume it did

01:41:02 did well your fra carl stokes is telling you isn't he here that

01:41:11 that documentation to be handed over to the tma by the contractors must include all the regulation 38 information did you understand that

01:41:22 that yes yes and as i say we would have urged on the safe side and assumed it did apply

01:41:29 did apply i see so you say you assumed it did apply and then by whom it says claire w o m manual in preparation what does that tell us

01:41:41 um that i am responsible for actioning that point and there are comments there in relation to the documentation that is asked for

01:41:54 right

01:41:57 what did you do to ensure that all the regulation 38 information was collated and then handed over to the tmo by the contractors

01:42:08 as it says that the the o m manual say quite often that the two terms were used interchangeably but the o m manual and the health and safety file it says are in preparation

01:42:23 so it was work in progress was it your view that the o m manual would constitute all regulation 38 information required by the building regulations

01:42:36 [Music] um

01:42:39 um probably not because the o manual has a slightly different emphasis well that was what i was going to put to you

01:42:46 you uh but you accept that and given that

01:42:51 that what were you going to do to make sure that the regulation 38 information required by the building regulations was provided to the tmo over and above what was in the o m manual

01:43:05 and above what was in the o m manual it would be looking at what information ryden had produced in terms of fire safety

01:43:11 safety and

01:43:16 putting it into their health and safety fire

01:43:18 fire [Applause] now

01:43:21 now paragraph 62 of your 20th of january statement as we've seen you say you were told that everything that needed to be passed to the tma was passed by ryden on the memory stick

01:43:33 passed by ryden on the memory stick do you did you understand at the time that there was or was to be a memory stick

01:43:41 stick given by ryden to the tmo which contained all the regulation 38 information required by the building regulations

01:43:50 yes it could have been it by other media but the memory stick was what i was told i would get did you receive the memory stick i did did you open the memory stick i did did you check that it had

01:44:01 stick i did did you check that it had all the material which which was required under regulation 38 of the building regulations i think the memory stick went back a couple of times where there were clearly gaps in it

01:44:12 gaps in it sorry did you open the memory stick you did i did did you check that it had all the material which was required by regulation 38 of the building regulations [Music]

01:44:27 i don't know that i did specifically when i got when i got it what is that um when i got it there were still gaps there was still information which

01:44:39 gaps there was still information which ryden had said they would produce separately did you follow that up with ryden

01:44:44 ryden uh yes that there was a list of outstanding items that they later produced

01:44:50 produced did you ever get a complete set of information which comprised all the regulation 38 information as required by the building regulations

01:45:02 i i i'm not sure i can't i i can't say hand on heart that i i checked exactly in its final version once you've pursued ryden for more information did you ever do a check to

01:45:16 information did you ever do a check to make sure

01:45:17 make sure that all of the required sections of the section 38 document were fully completed with relevant fire safety information in particular

01:45:33 i believe that all the information ryden had prepared and that we received

01:45:43 was on it but

01:45:45 but i i'm

01:45:46 i i'm i'm mindful

01:45:49 you know from where i am now that at the time i believed that there was all the information i was going to get from ryden in relation to fire safety was on it

01:45:59 it did you ever check to make sure that all of the all of the required relevant fire safety information was in what you eventually had from

01:46:10 was in what you eventually had from writing

01:46:15 i had i believe i had all that they had relating to fire safety in terms of the areas that they were building in for example the emergency lights to the main building were undertaken by the tmo

01:46:28 building were undertaken by the tmo so

01:46:29 so ryden would have given me what they had but

01:46:33 but as i say it's still

01:46:36 partial tmo information past your riding information can i ask you to look please at b l a r p

01:46:46 2 6 0 6

01:46:52 at page and before we go off this page one i should tell you what this is this is page one of

01:47:02 of dr lane's phase two report on regulation 38 fire safety information main report

01:47:11 and it's dated as you can see the 19th of may of this year 2020. so that's what we're looking at let's go together to page 241 please in this document

01:47:23 this document let's look please together at section 19.3.7

01:47:31 first can i ask you just in general have you seen this document did the tma or their lawyers ever show you this document between may this year and today um i i

01:47:42 between may this year and today um i i know that there was a report prepared i don't know that i've seen the report let me just put to you what she says at this paragraph based on my analysis above it is my opinion that the ryden

01:47:53 above it is my opinion that the ryden building manual failed from a technical perspective to address the contractual requirements that had been set none of the required sections was fully completed with the relevant fire safety information in

01:48:04 relevant fire safety information in accordance with the contract and a substantial quantity of the provided content related to fire safety related systems was insufficient to assist the responsible person to operate and maintain the building with reasonable safety

01:48:16 safety do you agree

01:48:21 i i don't know enough

01:48:25 enough about the required sections being fully completed it's i can see it's a resume but i don't understand enough about what she's interrogated to comment on which i'm afraid right so do i take it from that

01:48:37 afraid right so do i take it from that you've never actually been asked to consider her views

01:48:43 her views um no i haven't i haven't looked at this report even though i said i was aware there was a report

01:48:52 can i then ask you a number of follow-up questions

01:48:55 questions um the first relates to the drop-in sessions we were looking at or discussing earlier do you recall those i think um my question is were any samples of

01:49:07 um my question is were any samples of the proposed rain screen cladding shown to residents at any of the drop-in sessions

01:49:20 no because they were put up on the building during my time i don't know whether a predecessor had shown samples but during my time the only samples were physically installed

01:49:31 only samples were physically installed on the side of the building uh do you recall that there was a mock-up done in the june of 2014 with samples of renault bond different

01:49:42 with samples of renault bond different kinds of random bond provided by cep yes that's what i'm describing that that was put on one elevation yeah i see but apart from that you don't recall is this right any samples of the cladding

01:49:53 this right any samples of the cladding material being shown to residents of drop in sessions specifically not at the drop in sessions i heard right during the drop-in sessions was any information provided to the residents about what the samples were made of

01:50:04 about what the samples were made of or about what the range screen that you had decided to adopt was made of

01:50:11 i don't think it was mentioned in the drop-in sessions i don't know if it was any in any communication if it was in any newsletters but it wasn't mentioned in the drop-in sessions because

01:50:25 it was i think the earlier tmo team had been talking to residents quite a lot about the cladding but

01:50:35 but i think that the new team that i was part of were mindful that it would be the planners who'd be the ultimate arbiters on what we were going to choose so

01:50:45 so in fact it might be a bit misleading to show residents options and then say oh by the way you can't choose them it it'll be the planners so

01:50:53 so one of the things we did in my tenure was to try and explain that to residents that

01:50:59 that the tmo even didn't have any control over the finish to be chosen it would be the planners [Music]

01:51:09 uh now uh we discussed this morning uh

01:51:15 uh the subject of looking for leaseholders or tenants to take part in the tender process

01:51:24 now as you were new to the tmo in 2013 september of that year did you take any steps to familiarize yourself with the background and history of grenfell tower and its occupants

01:51:36 and its occupants i was given in my briefing pack

01:51:41 information about a power surge that had happened

01:51:44 happened earlier in that year

01:51:49 and i as part of my induction obviously had a session with the housing management team particularly bearing in mind i was going to be dealing with grenfell

01:51:58 grenfell so they

01:52:01 told me about any issues that they had in terms of the building or anything they thought was relevant right during that induction meeting or process or indeed at any

01:52:13 meeting or process or indeed at any other time did housing management refer you to any residence groups in particular such as the grenfell tower leaseholders association um i think they they said there was one

01:52:25 um i think they they said there was one right

01:52:27 right did they refer to any others

01:52:30 there was the emb the estate management board

01:52:34 board which

01:52:37 which was i think

01:52:42 sort of something they were involved with at the time so that that would have been it i think did you make any effort to contact the grenfell tower leaseholders

01:52:54 the grenfell tower leaseholders association or the emb in relation to the refurbishment

01:53:00 i personally didn't at that stage because i was new um

01:53:07 later on [Music]

01:53:09 [Music] the emb was disbanded and i dealt with various leaseholders at grenfell but individually not as a group because i

01:53:20 because i there are many absentee landlords and it was easier to deal with them individually rather than getting back from somerset or wherever they lived was one of the groups that was mentioned

01:53:32 was one of the groups that was mentioned to you the lancaster west uh residents association do you think no it doesn't ring the house no did you had you

01:53:40 had you heard of the lancaster west residents association during your time working on the grenfell tower project i don't remember that name right sorry

01:53:53 did you ask anybody who was a member of the grenfell tower leaseholders association or indeed the emb

01:54:00 the emb to take part in the tender process

01:54:07 i didn't personally but so i was comparatively new so i would have thought um people who are more familiar with the management setting down there would have

01:54:18 management setting down there would have asked them if it was appropriate right you say you were comparatively new i think you'd been at the tmo about six months or so perhaps a little bit more than six months at the time of the

01:54:29 than six months at the time of the tender interviews in early march 2014 hadn't you yes yes

01:54:36 yes yes so at that point did you not think to contact the groups the leaseholders association and the other and the enb and find out from them whether any of their members would be willing to act

01:54:49 their members would be willing to act uh to assist in the tender process

01:54:54 no i i didn't i know we did ask a local counsellor and our chair who's also a resident but i don't remember anybody even mooting either of those groups

01:55:07 even mooting either of those groups let's go to tmo double zero eight seven nine

01:55:12 nine seven eight one please

01:55:18 now this is a document that we got last week uh dated the 4th of march 2014

01:55:27 and it's it hasn't got a title but it's called or the first line says finding residents for the grenfell tower 7th march contractor interviews

01:55:38 7th march contractor interviews is this a document you're familiar with yes it's one of mine you compiled it did you yes did you compile it on the 4th of march 2014 i think i might have started it then i

01:55:50 i think i might have started it then i don't know or i might have put it together after several full starts because i think there was quite a lot of people i tried to contact now we can see it comprises two lists

01:56:02 now we can see it comprises two lists one a list of resident leaseholders and one a list of tenants

01:56:08 and the approaches that you took in respect of each of them do you see yes when did you start the process of approaching each of these individuals that led to the fourth of march summary we see here um i i suspect the previous

01:56:22 we see here um i i suspect the previous month

01:56:23 month right do you remember when in the previous month no i'm afraid not you remember whether it was before or after the 20th of february uh when we saw the emails about the process

01:56:34 process i suspect it was probably about that date then

01:56:37 date then february yes actually thank you um if you look down the list of resident leaseholders you can see that flat 156 is mr ahmed did not contact yes

01:56:48 is mr ahmed did not contact yes uh now

01:56:49 uh now do you know why you didn't contact mr ahmed

01:56:52 ahmed no i think my list there is is probably the all the resident leaseholders so no i don't i don't remember did you know that he was chair of the grenfell

01:57:03 know that he was chair of the grenfell tower leaseholders association no i didn't you didn't right no

01:57:09 right no had you known that would you have contacted him probably yes because that would have covered a lot of bases but

01:57:17 but right

01:57:20 i see

01:57:23 why did you have him on your list sorry i'm thinking those are the resident leaseholders i see so this is a full list of the resident leaseholders yeah i follow

01:57:37 and he's the only one it seems you didn't contact is there a reason why no no i i don't know i don't know why i didn't because i i met him subsequently but i don't think i met him at this point right

01:57:52 did you speak to or deal with mr ahmed in relation to the refurbishment after march 2014 i believe i did yes in what context can you remember no i can't remember but i'm

01:58:04 you remember no i can't remember but i'm sure i did because i didn't meet him for a long long time i don't know if he was living there at the time but so i did meet him well that subject may need to be revisited in due course ms williams um

01:58:16 ms williams um turning onto a different topic again uh we uh looked this morning at uh

01:58:22 uh the email of complaint or letter of complaint

01:58:26 complaint uh of the 30th of march 2016 that neil reed sent to the tmo about ryden's work remember we looked at that this morning yes

01:58:35 yes and

01:58:36 and uh you

01:58:38 uh you said that you were not concerned that ryden was tempted to deliver poor workmanship or cut corners to keep the project on track or within their their own budget you said no that wasn't something you were aware of

01:58:50 something you were aware of can i show you an email very shortly after the 30th of march 2016 uh written by david collins this is tmo double zero eight four six

01:59:03 double zero eight four six please

01:59:07 [Music] as you can see it's an email from david collins who was one of the residents and he

01:59:17 and he writes to you copy to ed default subject reid grenfell community meeting with tmo ryden 6th of april so a week or so after the

01:59:28 6th of april so a week or so after the 30th of march letter sent by neil reed to the tmo about ryden's work and if you look at the

01:59:36 the middle paragraph in the page problems with the works can you see it says residents discussed how our bkc council and our landlord the tmo have prevented residents coming together to form a collective voice and then

01:59:48 form a collective voice and then uh discussion about the problems and then a set of bullet points and then if you look at the third

01:59:56 third fourth i'm sorry fourth bullet point down concerned at the appalling standard of work undertaken by ryden in communal areas and inside a number of residence properties

02:00:07 properties looking at that is it right that you were aware when you received this email at the very least about complaints and concerns about the quality of work being conducted by ryden

02:00:22 i know that this was really useful to get an understanding of residents views i i'm

02:00:30 i i'm aware

02:00:31 aware that in relation to that first point about appalling standard of work undertaken by ryden in communal areas that a photograph had been taking of works in progress i.e not the finished

02:00:43 works in progress i.e not the finished work

02:00:45 work so

02:00:46 so um that was something that we were able to deal with right inside a number of residents properties what we would always do is tell us what tell us where we need to understand specifics um you

02:00:57 we need to understand specifics um you know general comments do not help and so

02:01:01 and so what we have done if we got the specific detail we would go and check and see what the status was what the problem was but i say i think

02:01:12 the problem was but i say i think generalized comments um are hard to deal with you need specifics and they say i know in the communal area work i i'm very happy that what they were

02:01:24 i i'm very happy that what they were complaining about there was work in progress they took it in the middle of the day the people aren't finished and so that was properly finished but the number of residence properties say we would have asked for more

02:01:35 say we would have asked for more specific details so that we could manage that

02:01:38 that i see um so are you telling us that with this specific

02:01:44 specific albeit generalized complaint you knew what it was about and you followed up on it

02:01:48 it um some of the items we may not have known we would have asked him for more information did you enlist the services of artelia to see if you could address

02:01:59 to see if you could address together

02:02:00 together the complaints about quotes the appalling standard of work and undertaken by ryden etc to which mr collins had drawn your attention

02:02:09 attention um once we'd had specific information we would be able to take it up through the contract yes that wasn't my question my question was whether you enlisted the services of artelia to see if you could

02:02:20 services of artelia to see if you could address those complaints um not not at this stage because it was not clear exactly what the issue was

02:02:29 was right

02:02:33 and again i think that may be a topic which i'll leave hanging for the moment but no need to be pursued at a later date

02:02:38 date can i

02:02:39 can i then come back to a document we looked at this morning before we took a short break ms williams and that's the an email of the 14th of june 2017.

02:02:52 before i put it on the screen i just want to be fair to you are you all right to answer questions about it it's a short question i just want to give you an opportunity to i am but please be sensitive well i will try

02:03:03 please be sensitive well i will try certainly and i i if it helps i won't show you the email but i ought to have it on the screen just just for the record so that other people looking at it

02:03:12 it can see what i'm asking you about tm00870856

02:03:17 please

02:03:21 which is an email we looked at this morning

02:03:24 morning and

02:03:26 and it has five parts in it i won't re-read it to you and my question and just to give you a fair opportunity to deal with the point we can see what it doesn't say and it doesn't record anything in there about

02:03:37 doesn't record anything in there about you having been assured by simon lawrence of ryden that the cladding was inert and wouldn't burn

02:03:44 burn and my suggestion to you is that if you had been given that assurance that would have been mentioned in this email do you accept that i think your question was why didn't i express

02:03:57 was why didn't i express anything about fire i don't think it was what you just said to me you said something a little bit different this morning well let me try the question a differently i'm just giving you an opportunity to accept that had

02:04:10 opportunity to accept that had mr lawrence given you the assurance you say he gave you and mr gibson which we went through yesterday

02:04:18 yesterday then your first reaction on seeing the fire would have been to have recorded the assurance and this was would have been a perfect opportunity to do that do you accept that

02:04:29 that i

02:04:31 i think that we were being directed as to what information we needed to provide so

02:04:38 so i understand what you're saying now but i think the emphasis was on this is the information that we we need to provide for whatever purpose so

02:04:50 so and honestly there are other things going on

02:04:54 let's turn to a different and final topic and i want to ask you some more questions about the about the dda and particularly david bonnet now this morning you said that you had no recollection

02:05:05 you had no recollection of david bonnet associates or the name bonnet at all

02:05:11 and uh and i showed you the design team meeting minutes of the 22nd of october 2013

02:05:18 2013 and you didn't recognize that do you remember that in fact david bonnet associates were retained to carry out a review of access for the disabled or those residents in the building who

02:05:31 or those residents in the building who were

02:05:32 were disabled who had who had mobility difficulties um do you remember that no i don't know that well let's have a look at the document it's it's uh sea four zeros eight zero five five

02:05:44 uh sea four zeros eight zero five five please

02:05:52 this is an email from uh somebody called anita bednarevitz the 20th of august 2013 to bruce saynes and she attaches

02:06:03 and she attaches a

02:06:04 a a revised fee proposal which was amended [Music]

02:06:08 [Music] and

02:06:09 and the fee proposal is at uh tmo

02:06:13 tmo double zero eight five five seven three six

02:06:17 six this is the tmos version of it or rather the tmos disclosed version of the same document tmo double zero eight five five seven three six

02:06:28 zero eight five five seven three six and you can see uh that it's stated august 2013 and it's a pro proposal for inclusive access consultancy services to arc to studio e does this look

02:06:39 to arc to studio e does this look familiar to you no i don't know that i've seen this before right

02:06:45 this fee proposal was within tmo's papers so was this something that you didn't see when you came into the project no i don't remember saying this right

02:06:53 right now um we know that david bonnet or bonnet associates produced a grenfell tower access statement that's at sea409496

02:07:05 at page 22.

02:07:11 [Music] is it

02:07:18 is this something that you recognize this no no not familiar

02:07:30 you recognize this no no not familiar with it at all

02:07:34 can we go to tm00850151

02:07:39 [Music]

02:07:46 this is an email from there are two emails on that page from bruce sowns to you on tuesday the 26th of november 2013 subject forward grenfell access comments

02:07:59 subject forward grenfell access comments claire

02:08:00 claire i misread bonnet's quote they're not down to provide a report i now recall asking them to admit it they kept they have kept us on our toes i really don't want to put two wc cubicles in the boxing changing room see below we can

02:08:11 boxing changing room see below we can probably make it work if you agree we should you see that yes

02:08:16 yes and if you look below it there is an email from rachel marshall at david bonnet to bruce zones which he's forwarding onto you you see

02:08:27 about

02:08:30 sanitary provision for the boxing club etc

02:08:34 etc and you can see uh that it's from david bonnet associates do you not remember that no i'm afraid i have no recollection of this at all right

02:08:43 right well let's just try one more thing top of the page and page one you respond to bruce sainz and say

02:08:52 hi i processed your invoice yesterday i don't want two wc cubicles either me and artelia going through tender stuff online claire

02:09:03 stuff online claire so it may well be looking at that rather um peremptory response that you didn't give it this much attention but did you read this emails chain when it came through do you think no i don't remember it at all it looks

02:09:15 no i don't remember it at all it looks to me so i was concentrating on the invoice well it does look it does look that way

02:09:21 that way and going through the tender stuff but i'm just really trying to get to the bottom of whether david bonnett the name and their function was really so alien to you as

02:09:30 to you as we might take from your evidence no i i i i'm not familiar with them at all

02:09:35 all this doesn't ring anybody all right well mr chairman i've come to the end of my prepared questions yes thank you and at the time it's probably sensible if we take a

02:09:46 it's probably sensible if we take a break now or the break now for anything we need 30 minutes again uh i would think probably not but it's probably sensible just to be sure all right

02:09:56 right well miss williams as mr millett said he's got to the end of the questions he thinks he needs to ask you

02:10:03 ask you but at this stage we have to have a pause just to make sure that nothing's been overlooked and also to allow others who are not in the room to suggest further questions that they might wish to have asked now usually we

02:10:15 might wish to have asked now usually we only take 10 or 15 minutes for that purpose but the reasons which i don't need to go into uh on this occasion we're going to have a little longer so we're going to come back at 20 to 5 and we'll see then

02:10:26 back at 20 to 5 and we'll see then whether there are any more questions for you

02:10:30 you all right would you like to go with the usher please and no talking about your evidence while you're out of the room please

02:10:44 right twenty two fives in please

02:39:09 yes would you ask mr williams to come back please okay

02:39:23 right mrs williams well we'll see if mr millett's found some more questions yes thank you

02:39:28 thank you thank you mr chairman uh in fact i think all the follow-up questions that others have for you i have absorbed and asked during the course of the last day or so which leads me i think to the final question that i do wish to ask you

02:39:40 question that i do wish to ask you it's a question we ask witnesses who do have or have had specific responsibility for important areas of our inquiry and it's this looking back on on the evidence that we've been through over the last two and a half days or so and

02:39:52 the last two and a half days or so and looking back on on all the events that have now come to mind through that process

02:39:57 process is there anything that you think you now should have done differently

02:40:03 i would have liked to have been able to evidence in document form the responses from ryden in relation to my question about flame retardance

02:40:15 my question about flame retardance and david's question about the materials being inert i would have loved to be able to present those to you because um so that would have been substantial information for you

02:40:29 thank you very much thank you very much mr well ms williams those are all the questions i have for you it remains for me to thank you very much for coming here and giving us your assistance so thank you

02:40:41 assistance so thank you can i express my condolences you certainly can i'm sorry i didn't pick it up before

02:40:47 up before but you appreciate i knew many people who died

02:40:52 who died and

02:40:53 and i'm glad that the inquiry is here and hopefully

02:40:57 hopefully um

02:40:57 um through your work we can get some resolution to stop tragedy like this happening again

02:41:04 well thank you very much um

02:41:08 um can i can mrs williams be released well mr chairman and this is a slightly delicate subject um may i ask that she not be formally released until

02:41:19 released until mr madison gives his evidence tomorrow that is simply for this reason that because of the recent disclosure of mr madison's notebooks

02:41:31 madison's notebooks during the course of yesterday it is possible to put it no higher than that that there may be further questions for miss williams that arise out of those notebooks and i don't think it would be right

02:41:42 would be right to release her to discuss her evidence or those notebooks until we as a team are satisfied and all other cps are happy that there are no further questions for module one

02:41:54 questions for module one i stress module one which arise out of those notebooks obviously there are and they will be questions for module three which arise out of them but that's a different matter given that it is only a short period

02:42:05 given that it is only a short period until

02:42:06 until tomorrow tomorrow afternoon i think when mr madison comes it's not unreasonable to as it were hold ms williams over if that's not inconvenient to her but it is only she would need to

02:42:17 to her but it is only she would need to be here she won't need to be here unless she unless she's required to be here and if she's required to be here to answer further questions of course we will uh tell

02:42:24 tell those representing her or representing the tmo that is to say uh at the earliest possible opportunity yeah all right thank you mr anything nothing you want to say about that is that no thank you this one i don't know

02:42:37 that no thank you this one i don't know how far you followed what mr millett was saying as you know we um

02:42:41 um we are still looking into the question of mr madison's notebooks and it's just possible that something may emerge which will generate a question that we need to put to you i

02:42:53 question that we need to put to you i think it's unlikely but we just don't know

02:42:55 know so what's being suggested is that rather than formally release you at this point we keep you as it were on eyes as a witness

02:43:03 witness the effect of that is that you mustn't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it until you are formally released and just for

02:43:14 and just for clarity that includes your lawyers and we will let you know as soon as we possibly can whether we do need to ask you any further questions or if we don't that we don't and that

02:43:25 or if we don't that we don't and that you are then released from your affirmation thank you for explaining that because i wouldn't have understood that no no well i thought it was better really to make it clear what we're saying so although i'm going to uh let you go home now

02:43:38 i'm going to uh let you go home now because it's been a very long day anyway and um

02:43:42 and um and time to end it but um and of course you won't be required to come back tomorrow but if we need you back we'll tell you no that's thank you thank you for making that and we'll certainly tell you as well if we don't need you back

02:43:53 you as well if we don't need you back then you know that you're released from your uh information that's fabulous thank you for letting me can i just say thank you very much for coming to give your evidence to the inquiry i know it's

02:44:04 your evidence to the inquiry i know it's been a difficult process at times and i can well understand why and i'm also conscious that it's taken longer than you were probably led to expect

02:44:13 expect i'm afraid that does sometimes happen and we don't have complete control over how things go but we're very grateful to you and it's been very helpful to hear your evidence so thank you very much indeed

02:44:24 so thank you very much indeed no would you like to go with the usher

02:44:29 thank you

02:44:38 good thank you very much now we are not sitting tomorrow morning hey mr chairman we're expecting to uh

02:44:47 uh call mr madison at two o'clock that's the plan isn't it that is the plan yes uh and uh that should be made clear to all those watching if that's possible yes

02:44:56 yes well uh

02:44:57 well uh for those who are watching i can confirm now that we're going to rise now we're going to resume at 2 o'clock tomorrow not 10 o'clock as usual thank you thank you very much

02:45:16 you