Rapinder Hardy, manager from London Borough of Ealing, gives evidence about taking control of the Westway rest centre on 17th June 2017, the chaotic conditions she found, lack of handover, and the critical role played by community volunteers.
00:00:24 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from more of those who were concerned in looking after people in the aftermath of the fire yes mr keith good morning mr chairman
00:00:35 yes mr keith good morning mr chairman good morning members of panel could i call rapinder hardy please
00:00:46 good morning good morning miss hardy good morning good morning uh i understand you're going to take the oath the book is there would you take it in your right hand please and read the words on the screen
00:00:57 and read the words on the screen i swear according to the sunder goodka that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now please sit down and make yourself
00:01:08 please sit down and make yourself cultural there
00:01:15 all right thank you good thank you yes mr keating thank you mr chairman um good morning ms hardy thank you so much for joining us today and assisting the choir with his investigations just a few primary matters as we said to all
00:01:26 primary matters as we said to all witnesses and firstly if you've difficulty understanding any of my questions and please just ask me and i can rephrase those accordingly also if i can invite you to keep your voice up as best you can so that the
00:01:37 voice up as best you can so that the transcriber sits to your right can catch what you say also it's sometimes natural to nod or shake your head again could i invite you to say yes or no again just like it can be captured by the transcriber
00:01:49 be captured by the transcriber and lastly at any time if you feel you need a break and just let us know and i'm sure we can accommodate that of course thank you just a few things where we're formalities and in relation to your
00:02:01 formalities and in relation to your statement you provide a one witness statement to inquiry and that's dated 11th of november 2020. perhaps we could bring that up that's lbe we just have it there thank you and for the record at six
00:02:13 and for the record at six zeros 25 and we can see that's your statement there if we could turn to page 31 please
00:02:22 [Music] when it turns at 31 we should see your signature
00:02:34 and whilst we're waiting can you confirm that you've had any opportunity to read your statement i have recently thank you
00:02:54 there we go so we see a page 31 it's your name in prince the date 11 november 2020. can you confirm that your signature it is and we see above that the statement of
00:03:05 and we see above that the statement of truth can you confirm that the facts stayed in that witness statement are true to the best of your knowledge they are indeed excellent just by way of overview mrs hardy um it's right that you became involved in a response to grenville fire tower
00:03:17 response to grenville fire tower on saturday the 17th of june 2017 and you attended the west west sports centre
00:03:24 centre and as a local authority liaison officer lelo
00:03:27 lelo i'm on behalf of the london borough of ealing is that correct that's correct and what we'll do with your assistants we'll examine how you took in your words control of the west way that day on the 17th of june and examine the days you
00:03:40 17th of june and examine the days you worked there which were the 17th of june the 18th of june so that weekend and then on to the 20th of june which was the tuesday of the following week that's right and in terms of background in june 2017
00:03:52 and in terms of background in june 2017 you were the manager for the business support service at the london borough of ealing is that correct that's right and prior to the grenville tower incident had you any involvement in any emergency incident no i didn't
00:04:06 and looking briefly at the circumstances in which you became involved is it right that you responded to an email on the evening of the 15th of june from ealing's head of emergency management donna wooten asking for staff to
00:04:18 donna wooten asking for staff to volunteer that's correct yes i had been asked to join the emergency management team prior to grenval and i was on way on track to do that
00:04:29 and i was on way on track to do that with my training due on the 19th of june but obviously with the tower fire i was on the email list of responders and therefore i responded immediately
00:04:41 therefore i responded immediately so you'd already expressed an interest in that area you're due to have your training
00:04:45 training and probably because of that lack of training is it right that you reply that email and suggest that philip lee morris who also was a former member of the healing emergency team work with you that's right in other words you too
00:04:57 that's right in other words you too attends together absolutely and because of your lack of experience as you described in that area it's right that you were provided with some um training
00:05:08 training short training as it occurred on the 16th of june is that correct that's correct short not a christian but it was it was one hour is that right it was yes
00:05:19 and in terms of your
00:05:22 your position you had expressed interest on the 15th of june you had the training provided by the london birth healing on the 16th of june as a lelo local authority liaison officer and prior to your deployment the
00:05:34 and prior to your deployment the following day on the saturday the 17th of june had you been provided with any briefing documents situation reports or any information in relation to the response and what you're about to
00:05:45 response and what you're about to enter nothing and in relation to the absence of information let's have a look at an email please which is lbe [Music]
00:05:56 [Music] six zeros 29 please
00:06:06 this is um an email which we can see that it's donna wooten who's the the lady we mentioned already who is the head of emergency management at lundberg healing to you 16 to june 12 30.
00:06:19 16 to june 12 30. i'm
00:06:20 i'm providing you some documents we can see which are attachments but
00:06:24 but it refers to this just so you're aware i've now escalated to our regional team for briefings or vps that's the rendezvous point
00:06:34 point to be provided to anyone responding there is a serious lack of info i know you'll be fine thrown in at the deep end but i hope to get more information before close of play
00:06:46 close of play so that was a position there was an absence of information a serious lack of information notwithstanding the requests and you attended it is arrived from the morning to 70 to june with no information in advance absolutely
00:06:57 information in advance absolutely correct
00:07:02 so let's turn to your attendance and i'm going to deal with it in in sections because you provided a very helpful and comprehensive statement with lots of supporting documents and
00:07:14 with lots of supporting documents and emails
00:07:15 emails and to help you and to help and those who are watching on the panel and we're going to give you some subheadings as we go through it and the first area is first impressions of the west way on the
00:07:26 first impressions of the west way on the 17th of june so that's the area we're going to explore yeah so you arrived as you're saying your statement at the west way at about seven o'clock in the morning yes with philip lee morris yes and both of you were wearing is it right
00:07:37 and both of you were wearing is it right hi-vis tabards that's right so that you're identifiable is that correct that's correct and you had your ids your london birth healing ids on display yes i just want to ask you what your initial
00:07:49 i just want to ask you what your initial impression was of the appearance of the west way the rest center that morning on the 17th of june
00:07:58 it was quite it was really quite shocking to be honest i i remember um
00:08:05 um arriving first of all at westfield to park my car at 6 28 of the morning of the 17th and then traveling into the outer corner towards the outer
00:08:16 the outer corner towards the outer corner to access the in accordance with philip so i have my precise timings because i'm a meticulous record keeper when we walked towards the west way so
00:08:29 when we walked towards the west way so where the basketball courts are we took that route in and there were so many people so early in the morning it was it was astounding it was it was quite shocking
00:08:42 it was it was quite shocking and i did turn to philip because i think it's fair to say that anybody that attended that weekend or in the days prior and especially
00:08:53 days prior and especially up to that weekend
00:08:56 the mass of people the number of people was
00:09:01 was it was truly astounding it was truly shocking and i did turn to philip and at one point you have a minute of doubt and i wondered and i turned to him and said i
00:09:13 wondered and i turned to him and said i don't know if i could do this because it felt big
00:09:18 big it was
00:09:19 it was overwhelming for a moment and i have to i have to stress that for a moment it's human nature to feel overwhelmed by the enormity of what we saw at the west way
00:09:31 enormity of what we saw at the west way as we approached and then as we approach the the leisure center itself so there was a lot of people we saw the red cross desks um outside
00:09:42 red cross desks um outside obviously taking names and handing out wristbands there was a police cordon up there were police fans um and obviously later on i hope i get to tell you there
00:09:53 later on i hope i get to tell you there was the there were a lot a lot of media as well which we then found in all parts around westway itself so
00:10:03 so it's fair to say it was shocking to see my first impression was what is this what's going on let's try and assist you a little bit more to build on that picture as you described
00:10:14 build on that picture as you described it as quite shocking and overwhelming i think with the phrases you used a moment ago we could turn to paragraph 34 of your statement please
00:10:27 and it's the top line is this looking at the rest center my first impression was that it looked a mess it did not appear to be safe welcoming or an inviting place and it failed to
00:10:38 or an inviting place and it failed to encourage residents to come in there's no sign telling residents what the rest center offered services and who to speak and so on and if we look at 35 moved out to 35 you
00:10:50 and if we look at 35 moved out to 35 you described it it was a chaotic situation confusion and lack of any joined up working to meet the urgent and pressing needs of those who were present at the rest center was rife i felt overwhelmed by what i first saw it's included but
00:11:02 by what i first saw it's included but not limited to the rest center surrounded by police tape the red cross desk and some residents still sleeping inside the rest center so in relation to the police cordon you
00:11:13 so in relation to the police cordon you describe that something as has stood out just to visualize that to assist the panel in visualizing what do we mean by the police call there was uh police tape
00:11:24 the police call there was uh police tape up
00:11:25 up at the entrance of the west way to the point where it limited the the entrance and the exit and obviously with police officers on duty as well and just um to the right of that as
00:11:38 and just um to the right of that as you're you know facing westway there was a police van there as well so it it looked and i remember saying to philip and i talking about it saying it it felt more like a crime scene
00:11:51 it felt more like a crime scene than than somewhere where you would actually actively want a bereaved survivors and residents to come in to seek help it didn't invite people in because of that appearance that general
00:12:04 because of that appearance that general first impression was not i can go here and seek refuge or support this is a police crime scene that was the first impression i had
00:12:16 that was the first impression i had and in relation to the the numbers of police officers which you mentioned was a van and there's a cordon can you can you form any recollection as the number of police who were around that morning and during the day
00:12:28 that morning and during the day i didn't actually count the police officers um it's fair to say if there were i think there were a couple on the door but i i to be honest i dismissed seeing any police officers because that was not my
00:12:39 police officers because that was not my primary concern my primary concern were the residents abroad and the survivors and in relation to the court did you receive any feedback from those who attended the westway on the impact of
00:12:50 attended the westway on the impact of the cordon it wasn't inviting and they didn't feel like they could go in um they didn't see the the representative they would expect to see i mean obviously i went there in a
00:13:02 see i mean obviously i went there in a high vis and my id on so i was clearly visible to all that needed to see me even from a distance that i was in official capacity so obviously the officers on scene have their uniforms on
00:13:13 officers on scene have their uniforms on but anybody else whether it's an official within an official capacity were not readily readily identifiable as officers or within the council or other
00:13:25 officers or within the council or other councils indeed um
00:13:28 um the impression that i got from the from the residents was that they didn't want to be there but they they were there because that's where the support services um were being offered and that's where they were being directed
00:13:41 they were being directed they didn't want to be there so in relation to the the cordon and its negative impact summarizing what you said what steps were done if any to address that issue well we took down the police cordon
00:13:53 well we took down the police cordon um
00:13:54 um we asked the police fans to be moved so obviously as far out of sight as possible
00:14:01 possible and we tried to clear up the the the outdoor area to make it less it was just a jumble uh to make it more accessible open the doors
00:14:12 open the doors so those it's the little things to encourage people to come in because you don't want people um especially individuals are so adversely affected you know this is this is such a shocking
00:14:23 is such a shocking devastating incident that you don't want to put people off from seeking the support they will need and the seat the support that was on offer yes let's go to paragraph 96 of your statement which
00:14:35 to paragraph 96 of your statement which just flows from what you were saying about the
00:14:38 about the impression and presentation and this is what you say the rest center was busy and open to receive everyone there was issues with bins overflowing the removal of clinical waste the heat
00:14:49 the removal of clinical waste the heat and impact on food items and the surrounding area reported street bins overflowing so this was this was reported via back to action yeah did the situation improve following
00:15:01 yeah did the situation improve following the reports to the borough emergency control center the bank it wasn't immediate
00:15:07 immediate it's it's um when we reported it to the back um
00:15:12 back um it's not as if it happened within the next few hours it did happen but it shouldn't have been in that state from the get-go there should have been more rigor
00:15:23 rigor and if you recall that weekend it was
00:15:27 it was it was in the 30s it was very hot very sunny
00:15:32 sunny even with bins overflowing you'd have the smell you'd have vermin you'd have flies
00:15:38 flies within the rest center obviously westway sports center it was still hot as well uh with a lot of people it increases the heat you want it to be cooler and more comfortable and more
00:15:50 cooler and more comfortable and more inviting
00:15:51 inviting the the changing rooms in the toilets you know we asked for them to be cleaned as well and just to have a system in place so they were managed on a regular basis without you know
00:16:03 on a regular basis without you know either one of us philip or i going around just picking up you know bits of rubbish and putting them in the bin yes
00:16:11 yes i'm going to move on please to the next stage you had this initial impression and it's the topic of handover so you arrived that morning and you on your account and your statements that you reported a reception desk who did
00:16:23 you reported a reception desk who did you understand to be responsible for managing the rest center that morning on 17th of june really when we got there because there was such a lack of information provided we had no situation reports we had no
00:16:35 we had no situation reports we had no details on who was there on the on an official capacity to support the bereaved and the survivors and the residents i didn't really know who to expect and who would actually say
00:16:47 who to expect and who would actually say okay you're taking over from me here's a report of what's going on you know someone to pass the baton from so there really wasn't anybody um
00:16:59 from so there really wasn't anybody um it was
00:17:00 it was it was just bizarre if i'm honest in terms of going into a situation where you know that you're there to help the bereaved and the survivors because that is your primary focus is to see what what it is
00:17:13 primary focus is to see what what it is that's needed and what you can do but not having that information passed on to you
00:17:18 on to you to say right okay repenter here's a list of actions these are the things that we've done these are the things that need doing nothing
00:17:25 nothing [Music]
00:17:27 [Music] were you it probably flows from your last answer but were you aware that whether there was a rest center manager in in place on the 17th i believe there was
00:17:38 i believe there was and that's just going on recollection from my statement in terms of the individual that i took over from but that was just um a brief um and i make mention of it here's an
00:17:49 um and i make mention of it here's an envelope with lots of money in it yes we'll touch upon that a little bit later yeah yes but that was it really i really i don't recall having had any meaningful conversations with anybody
00:18:01 with anybody within the rest center when philip and i went in as layla's yes so the position is would you set out your statement at paragraph 36 is that you took over from a colleague from lewisham borough
00:18:13 a colleague from lewisham borough college borough council and um on your account there wasn't a useful handover no documentation provided to you and were you concerned by that that you
00:18:24 and were you concerned by that that you were there in person and this lack of information still continue to be a feature
00:18:31 feature yes
00:18:32 yes and the reason why i was concerned and obviously following on from the emails that you showed showed me earlier the lack of information on the ground i mean to say it was sketchy would be
00:18:43 mean to say it was sketchy would be would be generous there was nothing when
00:18:48 when you go into a site or when i expected to go into a site such as such as this after such a you know the fire i expected to be met with somebody that gave me much more information than i
00:19:00 gave me much more information than i received and i also expected to have some sort of to see some sort of order some sort of recognition of of process and delivery because it had been we were there day three it was three
00:19:12 we were there day three it was three days and it felt like it was the first night it felt like the first day because i could not see and i don't i didn't i didn't expect everything to be flowing you know like
00:19:23 everything to be flowing you know like clockwork but i did expect to see some rigor
00:19:27 rigor some um
00:19:29 some um something that i would recognize as right okay so you're this is the process this is what you're doing this is what you've done didn't feel that at all didn't experience it didn't see it well we'll
00:19:40 experience it didn't see it well we'll examine that in more detail in a moment in fact it was day four day four yeah yes and and day four you as you expressed there was that lack of features as you mentioned a moment ago
00:19:52 features as you mentioned a moment ago in terms of information as the number and detail of the residents who were using the rest center was there was that provided to you are available to you on the morning of the 17th of june
00:20:04 17th of june and did you request that material did you request a list of those who had been impacted yes yes who did you request that from um i know philip and i discussed it and i and i
00:20:15 philip and i discussed it and i and i made mention of it in i think it's one of the situation reports so it is in within my statement yes as to whom i i spoke there were so many people involved in the response in the back i
00:20:27 involved in the response in the back i can't give you a name but it's something which you requested from a number of sources but still there was an absence of that information yeah because we're blind as to who everybody is it is not our borough even within our
00:20:40 is it is not our borough even within our own borough we're not expected to know every single resident but what i did expect was to have some sort of list or some document to say you know these are the people that were
00:20:52 are the people that were housed in the tower and then when people presented themselves i could actually just it's your approach isn't it it's all about how you approach people and your humanitarian response so we made
00:21:04 your humanitarian response so we made the decision on site philip and i that we would treat everybody presenting at westway
00:21:10 westway as they were because they clearly are affected by the fire so we put that out that everybody that presented because we did not know survivor bereaved or
00:21:21 did not know survivor bereaved or resident or volunteer we would treat them with the same dignity and respect
00:21:31 if you could turn to page 37 of your statement please just to follow this theme in relation to details as to those who are affected
00:21:44 you said that you asked for a list of those within the rest center three lines down i was told the red cross were collecting this information and that anyone coming inside had to to be given a paper wristband
00:21:57 a paper wristband and as far as you are aware what was being done with the information which was obtained by the british red cross to be honest um without knowing i would have expected
00:22:08 without knowing i would have expected that to go to either the back or to rbkc i didn't ask where that information was going because again you know rightly or wrongly i expected there to be a process
00:22:21 wrongly i expected there to be a process for that information to be retained and passed on
00:22:26 passed on was that a feature in relation to registration perhaps people were assuming that somebody else was taking care of it i think so i think so i mean i i wish i knew then what i know now
00:22:37 i i wish i knew then what i know now because then i would have taken control of this aspect as well and
00:22:45 and you talk about taking control and registration had been one of the features of a rest center was there clarity in your mind then as to who was responsible for registration no um there wasn't because when philip
00:22:57 no um there wasn't because when philip and i attended um westway obviously we saw the red cross there but we still at that point weren't aware of what their overarching responsibilities were
00:23:09 overarching responsibilities were in terms of the response that information on partner organizations was missing as well so it would have been useful to understand what it what it was they were doing rather than making an assumption
00:23:22 doing rather than making an assumption and i think making assumptions in these kind of situations is wrong the clear direction the clear information on what the red cross were doing would
00:23:33 on what the red cross were doing would have benefited us in our response to the tower fire on the fourth day and did you yourself set up any process in relation to collecting and collating information of those who attended the
00:23:45 information of those who attended the westway
00:23:48 i didn't take anything from the red cross
00:23:51 cross in terms of registration of um individuals i did um myself start in my contemporaneous notes and in some
00:24:02 in my contemporaneous notes and in some of the other documents i have i did start writing down names of individuals and that was a mix of individual staff volunteers so i would know who was present and it also gave me
00:24:14 know who was present and it also gave me gave me an indication of the numbers of individuals from all walks of life uh from all aspects within kensington and outside as to who was present but that wasn't a formal process
00:24:27 present but that wasn't a formal process that was something that i did to inform myself
00:24:30 myself let me show you a document which hopefully might assist your recollection it's lbe6039
00:24:38 this is one of the emergency situation reports sit reps yes you've been mentioning too and this is one which is created by ealing and we see the dates the 17th of june the day you attended and the number
00:24:49 you attended and the number number one and that's something that you and your colleague philip lee morris set up isn't that correct that's right and we don't need to look at it now but this document
00:25:00 need to look at it now but this document was completed by philip in fact phillip lee morris we could see at page seven yes let's turn to page three please and six lines down we'll see in a moment on page three
00:25:15 from the second paragraph and it says resident register so it says this resin register and staff register created to account for those in west way does that assist whether there was some
00:25:28 does that assist whether there was some process set up by ealing and you and your colleague on the 70th of june
00:25:35 i think it's fair to say that whilst there was a register overseen by the red cross there was also a register inside but it was a it was again it was a manual record uh on on
00:25:47 again it was a manual record uh on on pieces of paper um
00:25:50 um there wasn't anything official there wasn't anything that um was in one place which would have been ideal so yes i do agree that there was a registered there
00:26:01 agree that there was a registered there was a staff list i think it was more of a staff list inside the um west way so we would know who was present it wasn't it wasn't a meaningful register who was responsible for it you
00:26:12 register who was responsible for it you know who was updating it where was it held you know was it the first thing that you did when you walked into westway is it the first thing that you want to do when you walk into westway when you're um trying to support the
00:26:23 when you're um trying to support the bereaved and the residents and the survivors so it was a if i'm going to be honest it was really wishy-washy the whole process of registration thank you i'm going to move on to
00:26:34 thank you i'm going to move on to another document just following through this issue regarding registration it's lbe six zeros again please 37 and this is a tactical meeting you attended at ealing council and maybe by
00:26:45 attended at ealing council and maybe by the phone
00:26:47 the phone and
00:26:48 and it appears to be a london birth healing and internal meeting and we know from other documentation this date is funded in 19th of june so it says tactical meeting healing control room first question is this is
00:27:00 control room first question is this is this
00:27:01 this an internal london birth healing meeting or is this a wider tactical coordination group meeting involving other responders it's an internal meeting yes
00:27:13 an internal meeting yes and we mentioned a days we can confirm as the 19th of june if you're happy to hear that from me let's look at page two please
00:27:21 please and the fourth paragraph
00:27:26 we see or h that's you also ask questions about the availability of a list of residents jc confirmed that this has been sent and was accessible by center managers and
00:27:37 was accessible by center managers and social care on site so this is the 20th of june as we mentioned a couple of times can you help us the weather by that stage being a tuesday after following week
00:27:49 being a tuesday after following week where our list of residents was available to center managers and you as indicated in this note i didn't see it you didn't see it i didn't see it
00:28:03 if we could have a look at lbe six zeros again please one nine thank you
00:28:11 and this is another sit rep dated the 20th of june we see a page one under the entry at 12 40 please which is the second time there
00:28:23 40 please which is the second time there and it says just at the bottom of that entry at 1240 and above 1250 there is no definitive list of v slash s was that a reference to victim and survivors that's right
00:28:36 survivors that's right so that's the entry there on the 20th of june there still remains to be no definitive list that's right that's accords with what your evidence was to us a few moments ago that's right
00:28:48 so is it the position from your evidence that issues regarding obtaining a definitive list still existed a week after the fire just being the 20th of june
00:28:57 june yes
00:29:00 if we continue and look at 1315 we see
00:29:05 we see i think my pronunciation probably is right for this one roshin yes request by rosheen for another admin laptop to enter red cross names
00:29:16 laptop to enter red cross names was that anything in relation to any process which has been set up in relation to red cross names and registration
00:29:25 i think i think
00:29:28 i think what was happening is that we weren't getting access to that information we didn't have a list of names it was being kept elsewhere so the request because these this is my situation
00:29:40 because these this is my situation report the request for another laptop was to assist that process for us to take some sort of ownership of that
00:29:51 i'm going to move on please now to your initial impression you've touched upon already of the management of the rest center leadership and coordination so quite quite a few things there
00:30:03 quite quite a few things there and perhaps we could look at paragraph 30 of your statement again please
00:30:09 and you state there it was clear there was a lack of grip at the rest center it seemed disorganized and chaotic with lots of people in it but i could not tell who the staff were from residents
00:30:21 tell who the staff were from residents there did not appear to be a clear command structure that i could identify or anyone with overall decision making responsibility keeping that in mind if we can move on to paragraph 57 please
00:30:36 and four lines down the difficulty in taking up our posts at the rest center was compounded by the fact there was no official handover which you've mentioned to us no walkthrough of the site
00:30:48 no walkthrough of the site no introduction to any local authority officers are those from other bar or boroughs forgive me organize late organizationally it was a shambles and not what i was expecting certainly not what i
00:30:59 what i am used to seeing from a local authority is that a fair description of your assessment of the management and coordination of the rest center on the 17th of june absolutely
00:31:14 if we could go back to paragraph 31 please
00:31:20 and you say this as we were both fresh to the rest center it became apparent that visible leadership a point of contact and a point of escalation were needed with a structure that was a robust
00:31:31 with a structure that was a robust supportive emphatic needs focused and collaborative to work with the volunteers and partners already at the scene
00:31:41 and given that you and philip lee morris to use your phrase were fresh to the rest center and what assessment had you undertaken in order to reach these conclusions which we've read out in the
00:31:52 conclusions which we've read out in the last couple of moments i don't think it really took as much of an assessment because there was no process in place there was no control there was no authority there were no people that we
00:32:03 authority there were no people that we could identify i didn't know who was making decisions who was running the center
00:32:08 center so when
00:32:09 so when when i say the time taken it was almost immediate because you know from the type of work that you do and the the role that i did at healing that
00:32:21 the the role that i did at healing that it wasn't going to work unless somebody stepped up and said right this is what we need to do this is how we're going to do it this is how it's going to play out because
00:32:31 because the whole point of us being there was to support the bereaved and the survivors that was our primary concern and as local
00:32:40 local authority officers from another council as public servants it was our duty to make sure that the center operated to the best of its ability regardless of
00:32:52 the best of its ability regardless of who was in command to deliver to the immediate needs of the bereaved and the survivors so the first impression was it's not doing that what can we do to make that happen
00:33:04 make that happen if we could turn please to lbe seven zeros four please
00:33:13 and this is an email which you provide us in your material
00:33:19 and if we could look at the third email please which is um at 9 36 scroll down thank you thank you so much so it's you you're the sender
00:33:32 so it's you you're the sender yes you can see it to donna wooten again yes and it says this in pretty short form
00:33:39 form i've assumed control of the west wing yes
00:33:46 and what did you mean by this that you've assumed control you went down there as a laylo
00:33:51 laylo rather than a rest center manager and within
00:33:56 within a couple of hours you've emailed your superiors at healing to this effect yes
00:34:04 and why did you make that decision because there was no leadership on the ground
00:34:08 ground there was no and i'm going to bang on about this during during my evidence is that without clear systems it's a free-for-all
00:34:19 it's a free-for-all we needed to build a structure pretty rapidly within the center so we would we could focus on the bereaved and the survivors you know we couldn't run around asking staff well what are you
00:34:30 around asking staff well what are you doing who are you you know what's your job it wasn't it didn't make sense you wouldn't run a business like this you certainly wouldn't run an emergency situation like that either
00:34:41 an emergency situation like that either so when i say i assume control i've assumed control of westway i meant that i've taken charge this is my site we make the decisions now once we've got that email in front of us
00:34:52 once we've got that email in front of us so we can scroll up to the next email in the thread your colleague philip lee morris sending at 09 56 and he says seems i've taken over the inner corner got various actions and
00:35:03 inner corner got various actions and there's been no sitrep a feature that you've mentioned already yeah
00:35:07 yeah asks for sit rep templates so everything could be properly documented by the way beck is quite chaotic but we're all from all over london
00:35:19 we're all from all over london yeah firstly can you assist with what philip lee morris meant by i've taken over the inner corner that was the um obviously that is the in accordance surrounding the tower so it's
00:35:32 accordance surrounding the tower so it's making himself visible available and saying that he's a laylo in charge so around the tower rather than around the west way yeah so it was a 30 meter cordon as i
00:35:43 yeah so it was a 30 meter cordon as i recall yeah and in terms of the information which has been fed back donna woodson at the top of this thread says a third sentence yes sophie one of
00:35:56 says a third sentence yes sophie one of your colleagues one assumes ended up doing a 15 hour shift yesterday and said much the same
00:36:05 in relation to the beck there was reference to the beck being quite chaotic
00:36:10 chaotic at that time we understand the beck was located at westminster city council that's right and what was your experience of the beck on the 17th of june and going forward on those days you worked at the west way
00:36:25 okay so working with the bank taking calls and making calls we had i think i had about three different numbers for the back which didn't make it easy um when i received calls from the back
00:36:37 um when i received calls from the back it was from multiple individuals sometimes asking for the same thing i recall being asked for numbers of those um
00:36:44 um still sleeping in the west way i think it was about four times um i've got all of my phone records as well so i can quite easily identify that um the back didn't seem organized in terms of um
00:36:58 didn't seem organized in terms of um there's that command structure or that that chain that golden thread that follows
00:37:04 follows up and down whether it's a business or an incident it didn't feel that there was
00:37:09 was anything resembling order within the back
00:37:13 back and
00:37:14 and i did go off the book and went to our back multiple times because it was far easier dealing with ealing
00:37:24 ealing borough emergency control center than it was with westminster
00:37:31 and you mentioned one of the features was
00:37:33 was multiple requests for the same thing from different people yeah and may i add that when you're delivering a function as a layla the last thing you want to do is to be
00:37:44 last thing you want to do is to be constantly on the phone asking for being asked for information having to run around finding that information so we were far more effective doing the jobs that we were there to do as layla's
00:37:57 jobs that we were there to do as layla's rather than sitting on phone calls yes there's a balance because there is a balance one of those tasks is to be the liaison officer yeah i appreciate that but it was the it was the uh repetition
00:38:09 but it was the it was the uh repetition of requests and in some respects rudder had been a layla your role was was different and you're a de facto rest sensor manager isn't that correct yes it was
00:38:23 in terms of structure and you talked about
00:38:26 about bringing in structure you is it right that you use brought in situation reports and that's something that you started to submit two reports a day to cover morning and afternoon that's right
00:38:37 cover morning and afternoon that's right and you also established what you term as all staff meetings twice a day is that correct that's correct and what was the purpose it may seem obvious but what was the purpose of introducing all staff meetings
00:38:50 introducing all staff meetings there was
00:38:51 there was the reason for the all staff meeting and when i'm talking about all staff i'm not talking about just the uh the council or the response side i'm talking about volunteers as well and partner organizations it was to get
00:39:04 and partner organizations it was to get everybody in the same room to hear the information at the same time it was to seek feedback and not just as a as an exercise but to take away meaningful actions and start
00:39:15 take away meaningful actions and start delivering against those it was to build relationships with the people that we were working with whether they're volunteers or from the official side um and it was to do it was to deliver the response together
00:39:27 it was to deliver the response together because there was no way we could deliver it on our own and if we look back on the days prior to philip and i uh
00:39:37 uh arriving at the westway it was the community that had organised themselves it was the volunteers the bereaved the survivors that had actually made meaningful inroads and defining their own roles and responsibilities in
00:39:50 their own roles and responsibilities in delivering to their version of the response so for me it was it was so obvious that they held the information they held the intelligence they had contacts and connections with
00:40:02 they had contacts and connections with those that were uh bereaved and survived looking for loved ones it was it was it was the right thing to do
00:40:11 do i'm going to return to that matter you mentioned about the role of the volunteers in a moment but just before doing so if i could just deal with one matter which is in relation to silver meetings or tactical coordination
00:40:23 silver meetings or tactical coordination group meetings tcgs yeah um it's right isn't it that you and your colleague phillip lee morris also ensured that you attended those meetings is that correct that's right
00:40:34 that's right in paragraph 67 of your statement perhaps you could just quickly turn to that please and this was your understanding another challenge
00:40:45 challenge was that no one from the local authority or laylo prior to me and philip had attended the silver meeting briefings held twice a day at the north kensington leisure center
00:40:57 leisure center and this is where communication information at rest center should be provided and equally important where messages cascaded from this group and could be distributed to the rest center in relation to that
00:41:08 in relation to that um
00:41:10 um what made you believe that no one else had previously attended because they told us that that's what you're told yeah
00:41:16 yeah in the meeting and when to say they told you it was a metropolitan police who were chairing those meetings yes that's right sorry yes
00:41:25 yes and just to balance that we do know that there's records which shows for some of the meetings on the 14th of june that representatives from our bkc were there at those meetings okay the records in
00:41:36 at those meetings okay the records in relation to the 15th and 16th and june are
00:41:39 are are not very clear in relation to attendance but your evidence today is that you were told by the chair of those tcgs that there was yeah on any basis a lack of attendance
00:41:50 yeah on any basis a lack of attendance by all bkc or layla's at previous tcgs that's right and was there any anything else said about the impact of that lack of attendance
00:42:03 of that lack of attendance i don't recall anything saying i said about the impact all i recall was that it was important that alelo attend those meetings for the reasons i've stated in in this
00:42:14 reasons i've stated in in this document and it's touched upon in your statement of paragraph 67 but did you find attending those meetings helpful did it assist you immensely in in what way
00:42:26 in in what way we knew what was going on with the tower with the um with the uh there's no simple way to put this but with those that had passed uh we knew this the structure of the
00:42:39 uh we knew this the structure of the building what was happening with transport we knew um the the structural integrity of the building
00:42:46 building um we knew the impact because obviously there was a lot of firefighters still there there was police there was the hsc there was the ambulance service so we had access and information from
00:42:58 had access and information from from
00:43:00 from the emergency services directly and that would help us with information is the building okay is it gonna fall down you know we can see body bags um from
00:43:11 um from latimer road station so areas need to be covered um information about the media you know even things like where the the hoarding was put up and there were gaps in the hoarding
00:43:22 in the hoarding we
00:43:23 we found out i mean one of the calls we made to bank was to get um some more hoarding in so we could fill in those gaps so the um the the media couldn't intrude and look
00:43:34 the the media couldn't intrude and look to see what was going on so we did have a lot of information uh some of which we could take back to the rest center and share some of which was for uh lelo
00:43:46 and share some of which was for uh lelo and we passed on through back um so it was it was it's critical that you attend those meetings really in my view well you said it was immensely
00:43:56 immensely assisted you for reasons you've mentioned a moment ago yeah on the the morning of the 17th june you talked about a lack of information whereas on your account is this the case that this really increased your situational
00:44:07 really increased your situational awareness absolutely yes absolutely i promised i was going to deal with volunteers at the rest center as a topic and i'm just going to turn to that now if i may
00:44:20 turn to that now if i may and it may assist perhaps you mentioned that you were a very good um note taker and i believe this may be one of your notes let's look at lbe please and it's
00:44:31 notes let's look at lbe please and it's six zeros one four it is yes this is your notebook which you've helpfully provided the inquiry to assist and
00:44:43 and your writing is probably better than mine so
00:44:46 mine so thank you and we can decipher the first line um it's 809 17th of june council aren't helping volunteers are doing everything this is page one
00:45:00 doing everything this is page one and it appears to be the first line that you've written down on your notebook in relation to what you've been what you've been doing council aren't helping volunteers are doing everything what did you mean by this
00:45:12 what did you mean by this i think if i just set the scene if i may very briefly bearing in mind that we are from another borough bearing in mind that we were just deployed to the west way um we have no vested interest um in our
00:45:25 um we have no vested interest um in our bkc or the site prior to this no view prior to this that this was within the first hour and all i could see was the volunteers having had
00:45:37 was the volunteers having had coordinated been communicating amongst themselves and the briefs and survivors and were delivering the things that you know from donations to food to emotional support it just
00:45:49 to food to emotional support it just seemed that they were there they were the response
00:45:57 you mentioned already that the the volunteers had taken this role and perhaps i could summarize some of the matters which you've mentioned already paragraph 125. you said that
00:46:08 already paragraph 125. you said that they'd already organized themselves assigned roles and we're meeting the needs of the bereaved survivors residents and those displaced within the community and surrounding areas is that a fair summary that is
00:46:21 a fair summary that is and a paragraph one two nine you say that the volunteers had already demonstrated they were organized working on donations deliveries logistics food with residents still in the area and
00:46:32 with residents still in the area and those in in hotels yeah and that they were a reassuring presence to the residents at the rest center and they were being effective they had existing relationships with residents
00:46:42 residents they understood local cultural and religious needs and had the language skills we needed to communicate effectively with residents that perhaps complements what you've
00:46:54 that perhaps complements what you've already told us today some of it is we heard you
00:46:57 heard you mentioned eloquently a few moments ago is that a fair summary of the of the effectiveness of volunteers that's right it is
00:47:08 and your view was that it was necessary to utilize the knowledge and skills of the volunteers that correct absolutely absolutely
00:47:19 absolutely and let's look at paragraph 134 please of your statement
00:47:24 just just to clarify one matter we talked about an old staff meeting you also mentioned this i called the first meeting of this kind i meetings with volunteers at 1439
00:47:37 meetings with volunteers at 1439 on the 17th of june 2017. was that's the same as the old staff meeting or is this a separate meeting sorry
00:47:45 sorry this was with the with the volunteers because up until that point they had no real
00:47:52 real interaction with those on the response or those in charge of the rest center so this was the first meeting of its kind
00:48:10 and is it correct from that meeting on the 17th of june in the afternoon that volunteers raised a significant number of issues
00:48:16 of issues which you've listed at paragraph 137 of your statement absolutely good look at that to help you
00:48:25 that's it yes so what i'm going to do is i'm going to read it all out we can see it there and some matters there are sensitive but let's read some of those and the view that we
00:48:36 and the view that we i the response was not fast enough it was enough not enough communications from the response that hundreds of people were in hotels and families were separated and the
00:48:47 and families were separated and the management of this was failing as we touched upon already that the police tape outside the rest center was pulling people off from attending and that more support was needed
00:48:59 support was needed and then as a matter you mentioned already in relation to matters which were visible and then if we move down just towards the bottom for staff to be more positive
00:49:10 the bottom for staff to be more positive with residents is that correct that's right what was meant by the last matter for staff to be more positive with residents the volunteers were telling me and
00:49:22 the volunteers were telling me and telling philip that they weren't being treated with the respect that people should be afforded that staff were being rude to them
00:49:36 staff were being rude to them and they just weren't getting the type of support and response that they expected the level of care that they respected the collaboration and working together
00:49:46 together taking on the intelligence from the volunteers responding to that intelligence in a meaningful way with direct actions they felt
00:49:57 they felt outside of the response rather than an integral part of the response so there's two factors there from your evidence one interpersonal skills being rude yes and
00:50:10 interpersonal skills being rude yes and secondly not being listened to that's right
00:50:13 right let's have a look at your situation report or the situation report and which is lbe6057
00:50:25 this is produced by the chief executive and if you could go please to page 19 of that
00:50:31 that document please
00:50:34 it's a little bit dense and on this second page of the situation report that we're looking at please which will be 2023.
00:50:46 we see fiona met can you recall who fiona was fiona elliott was our head of hospitality and events at healing yes
00:50:57 hospitality and events at healing yes okay so this is i'm going to read it into record fiona mets with lead volunteers and thanked them for their hard work this being the 18th of june and the love they have shown the community she gave an overview of the
00:51:09 community she gave an overview of the change to the center which will take place as of tomorrow and that will officially become a full humanita humanitarian center and there's a reference to payments which i'm not going to read out yeah the volunteers raised a number of issues rude and
00:51:22 raised a number of issues rude and inconsiderate inconsiderate housing officers from obkcc and stated that housing officers continue to be problematic volunteers acting like a buffer zone between residents and the government
00:51:33 between residents and the government some families have said they do not want social workers and two named volunteers lubna and hager reported that some of the housing staff were heard telling victims to [ __ ] off
00:51:45 were heard telling victims to [ __ ] off and then at the end need more services to be
00:51:48 to be compassionate absolutely so this is from recollection this is the 18th of june was a day that you were there as well yes yes yes yes and were you able were you aware
00:51:59 you able were you aware or did you observe or hear such behavior root
00:52:03 root and offensive behavior i personally did i personally didn't and that's not to say it didn't happen because i spoke to several people both volunteers and on
00:52:14 several people both volunteers and on the healing side that assured me that it did
00:52:17 did that's not acceptable in any situation in any circumstance um and looking back it was with the rbkc staff um
00:52:29 staff um being rude uh the housing staff being uh being rude to volunteers as well i don't i just don't understand the need for that there was absolutely we were
00:52:41 for that there was absolutely we were all there
00:52:42 all there supposedly trying to do the right thing and the only thing to support bereaved survivors and residents that presented to the westway it was absolutely uncalled for
00:52:53 westway it was absolutely uncalled for i'm sorry i did not witness it i wish i had because i would have taken more direct action but i know lubna very well
00:53:02 well and it is something if she said it happened it happened so we've got two sources one your notes from a meeting which was information which is relates to you and then this is one of your colleagues who documented
00:53:14 one of your colleagues who documented this and put in a situation report the next day yeah do you know if this issue regarding i'm going to put it more neutrally rude and inconsiderate behavior
00:53:23 behavior whether that was addressed and improved over the days you were there if i'm if i'm going to be completely blunt it was the healing officers um when we attended
00:53:35 the healing officers um when we attended on the 18th is when we were in goal command so we had an awful lot of offices from healing where it did improve with the rbkc offices i'm not saying every single one but there was a
00:53:46 saying every single one but there was a degree
00:53:47 degree of rudeness from what i've heard and what i've seen and what i've been told i've not heard it personally but what i've been told and especially when it's documented by fiona elliot i have
00:53:58 it's documented by fiona elliot i have no reason to disbelieve this it will be a hundred percent accurate okay we'll move on in in a little bit late a little bit later to when the londoner of healing
00:54:08 healing took control not you taking control but the council took control yeah on the 18th of june of the running of the rest center
00:54:16 center but i'm just going to if we go back to we don't need to look at it but i'm going to go back in time to that first meeting you had with the volunteers and we listed the matters which yes you
00:54:27 and we listed the matters which yes you noted and one of those was in relation to the hundreds of people who were in hotels and families were separated and the management of this was failing you'll recall that was something you noted down and i want to deal with
00:54:38 you noted down and i want to deal with hotels
00:54:40 hotels for a moment if we can so that was complained to you that there was a
00:54:44 was a significant amount of people who were and there was concerns being expressed about
00:54:51 about and what of anything did you do in relation to this it was
00:54:55 it was the the volunteers had had a really good grip on working with the briefton survivors and the hotels in that they were organizing
00:55:06 the hotels in that they were organizing rooms um
00:55:07 rooms um with families that weren't together putting them together and what we tried to do was complement that and i can't recall if i actually escalated that to the back or if it's in my sit rep
00:55:18 the back or if it's in my sit rep because there's a lot of detail in my situation reports but i was 100 aware it's in my contemporaneous notes as well about families being split up families being put in high-rise accommodation as
00:55:30 being put in high-rise accommodation as well and that that had to stop let's look at paragraph 117 of your witness statement in relation to this topic generally
00:55:46 and it's really the the second sentence or the second line of this paragraph and you say that the message i wanted to convey for residents to access services at the rest center were now
00:55:57 services at the rest center were now being carried by volunteers directly to the residents and to those in hotels
00:56:04 in hotels so just dealing with that process for a moment what messages were you wishing to convey to residents in hotels
00:56:15 in hotels the first thing was that um we were there um as representatives of the pan london response part of mutual aid that we were from eling i think it
00:56:26 aid that we were from eling i think it was
00:56:27 was there was a lot of mistrust a lot of mistrust between those in north kensington and the their local authority um and it was just creating a little bit
00:56:38 um and it was just creating a little bit of distance from that if i'm if i'm being fair but also that we were listening we understood that we had to deliver to their needs that we were getting
00:56:50 their needs that we were getting services in place that we were taking down cordons we were making it more inviting um for you know more welcoming for people to come and seek services
00:57:01 for people to come and seek services there were a range of services coming in we'd so rather than having a shambles of desks just the other side of the turnstiles we were creating um
00:57:11 um a process where residents could come in and seek the services that they want that we were offering empathy compassion we were being sympathetic to their needs
00:57:23 we were being sympathetic to their needs so we wanted to demonstrate that our approach was different that we we were here to listen and help you mention that you don't have a specific recollection of how you
00:57:34 specific recollection of how you escalated specific concerns we believe it's likely that you would have related to the back oh yeah definitely would be in the sit reps or it would be via quarterback but we were aware of the
00:57:46 quarterback but we were aware of the situation and the reason why i am confident in that is because we had a couple of families that we escalated through to back as well
00:57:57 as well one family that were sent to a high rise i think it was a 10th floor building and another family that was still sleeping in the west way that we had to move into temporary accommodation
00:58:10 had to move into temporary accommodation so we were very much aware of the of the urgent need for housing in terms of hotel accommodation emergency housing at that point if we could turn to another document
00:58:21 if we could turn to another document which is obk four zeros six eight seven eight please this is a little bit later in our timetable timeline the 20th of june yeah
00:58:33 yeah i'm just gonna wait for it to come up so we see that this is um
00:58:38 um 1924 it's an email from you to the back yes and copying in your colleagues and it
00:58:46 and it deals with this issue urgent hotel issue and
00:58:51 and i wanted to deal with feedback from volunteers hotels aren't feeding families three meals a day they're refusing or worse charging
00:59:02 charging see photos for specifics can we ring around hotels and fix this reputation damage we're still not halal culturally insensitive also discretionary fund release for cab
00:59:14 also discretionary fund release for cab transportation back to the ta temporary accommodation aka the hotels centers probably a short email you did on your
00:59:25 probably a short email you did on your phone and you probably were still in a rest center then so it's it's to the point yeah is that a fair summary always to the point and in relation to this updated urgent hotel issue this is three days after
00:59:38 hotel issue this is three days after your meeting with the volunteers when this was raised and it appears that it's still an ongoing issue is that a fair summary yes it is
00:59:47 it is and we know from the top of this thread that it was forwarded sent on to housing team to action that was a response you got 10 minutes later yeah
00:59:59 10 minutes later yeah your time in the in the west way i think there was one more day on the 22nd of june during that time on the 20th to the 22nd of june did you notice any improvement in relation to these
01:00:11 any improvement in relation to these matters no no
01:00:17 i want to deal with um volunteers and well i'm sorry you say you didn't notice any improvement how would you have noticed it feedback by the volunteers i think that was my first port of call
01:00:29 i think that was my first port of call into understanding what was going on with the residents in tempe accommodation or hotels they they were working with them on a daily basis throughout the night so if they were
01:00:40 throughout the night so if they were telling me it wasn't improving then it wasn't that was your source of information absolutely right and just just to complete that thank you mr chairman this email was sent
01:00:51 chairman this email was sent late on your penultimate day that been a tuesday to 20 to june you weren't working
01:00:56 working at the westway on the 21st of june and then you returned for your last day was the thursday the 22nd of june and in relation to that is that when you would have received feedback from those
01:01:10 would have received feedback from those who were at the west way to form that opinion they had my telephone number um i wasn't sure in sharing my number with the volunteers primarily so they could call me at any
01:01:22 primarily so they could call me at any time they needed i was very serious about my role and what it is that i had to do and i was very available to them so it's not a case of that i would clock
01:01:33 so it's not a case of that i would clock in and clock off they knew how to get hold of me so they would tell me okay that was information which came back to you both by telephone and from what you heard and sold when you're
01:01:44 from what you heard and sold when you're at the west way under 22nd that's right going to move on to just a small topic which is the volunteer coordination role so we are going a little bit back in the
01:01:55 so we are going a little bit back in the timeline back to that first meeting on the 70th of june that was part of your efforts to engage and harness the work of the volunteers at the west way and is it right following that first
01:02:07 and is it right following that first meeting
01:02:08 meeting that you set up a volunteer coordinator to assist with the organization or indeed coordination with volunteers that's right from that
01:02:19 from that first meeting it was really clear that there was a lot of things that we could learn working more closely with the volunteers um in terms of need so it was a role that we established to
01:02:31 so it was a role that we established to say right you know when an officer comes in to and is deployed out westway we want them to partner up with the volunteers just like we had somebody looking at donations
01:02:42 looking at donations so it was partnering up with the community volunteers so you would add value they would know the uh the intelligence and the information from the bereaved and survivors and we would bring that statutory back up that they
01:02:54 bring that statutory back up that they needed
01:02:56 needed that support that organization you know the the manpower not to say that they didn't have the manpower because of course they did but it was it was to be more collaborative to build relationships that had uh
01:03:08 to build relationships that had uh afraid
01:03:10 afraid uh whether or not they existed prior to that who knows but they were certainly decayed by the time we got there so it was doing our best to build those relationships between us in council and the community community
01:03:24 in council and the community community volunteers and in relation to volunteers used a generic umbrella term but can you assist us with what was the composition of the volunteers were these from these members
01:03:36 volunteers were these from these members of public were they from formal volunteer organizations were they from
01:03:42 from national volunteer organizations the volunteers that i worked with directly were mainly from the from the community they were from student age upward to working individuals i don't
01:03:55 upward to working individuals i don't know if they were part of any group i didn't ask because i didn't think to ask didn't have the time to ask what their background was it was only later as i sort of you know developed beyond
01:04:07 sort of you know developed beyond the first seven days in terms of my working at rbkc did i understand more about them and their roles but at that point did not know
01:04:18 and in relation to this role that you set up a coordination role was that the first time one was set up i believe so and
01:04:27 and can you recall who who was that person who was given that role
01:04:32 that role i think i think the first person would have been i'm from eling lee baldwin if my memory said i can't remember exactly who so you can recap you can
01:04:43 exactly who so you can recap you can recall that somebody was was appointed yeah i just want to ask your assistants just to clarify one matter and the chief executive of london borough of healing and perhaps you can assist with his pronunciation as a paul nizarik nice
01:04:55 pronunciation as a paul nizarik nice iraq nazareth nicer yeah he has provided statements to assist inquiry we don't perhaps need to look at it but paragraph 19 he says or bkc were responsible providing a
01:05:06 or bkc were responsible providing a volunteer coordination support is that correct i have no idea of that no
01:05:13 no your
01:05:14 your recollection and evidence of on the ground was that somebody was appointed in that role from eagling on the 17th of june yeah nobody told me or presented to me to say that i'm from rbkc volunteers
01:05:27 me to say that i'm from rbkc volunteers xyz and this is what i'm doing
01:05:32 turn on to staff visibility something which you've mentioned before yes um
01:05:38 um when you arrived on the 70th of june were you aware when you arrived and during the day how many staff members were at the rest center
01:05:48 center no
01:05:49 no not at all and you mentioned that there was a lack of
01:05:53 of visibility of staff is it because they weren't readily identifiable i couldn't tell
01:05:59 tell staff from community members
01:06:06 we know from one of the situation reports provided by ealing on the 17th of june i have assisted you that there was approximately 40 people who were there assisting formally with
01:06:18 who were there assisting formally with response or bkc staff public health housing
01:06:24 housing rest center staff british red cross councillors and nhs volunteers so about 40 people noted down by ealing in that situation rep
01:06:34 rep does that sound about right if that's what ealing have written down then i've got to take that at its word in terms of when you when let me just
01:06:46 in terms of when you when let me just clarify a point when you say staff um if we could break it down into the staff that was supposed to be leading the response from rbkc to the staff that were supporting the
01:06:58 to the staff that were supporting the response in terms of housing or finance those i separate mentally because it's the leadership side that i was looking for not the support staff who granted
01:07:09 for not the support staff who granted were there not the leadership that i expected
01:07:12 expected and the number i've given you is is a global figure which includes those who are anxious and supporting not just uh yes the the leadership are our key staff
01:07:26 in relation to that lack of identification um you mentioned in one of your documents um that all bkc staff in tabard's those who were wearing this
01:07:38 in tabard's those who were wearing this sort of high vis vests were being singled out and residents were very reluctant to repulse them and what did you mean by that that they were being singled out when so the staff the rbkc staff
01:07:51 when so the staff the rbkc staff that were there i think they were given an instruction not to have their id and not to be visible because the because of the the the degree of discontent and and
01:08:02 the the the degree of discontent and and the animosity towards them because of the tower fire um
01:08:07 um we were in our high vis and our tabards
01:08:12 the way in which um rbkc staff if they weren't very wearing or if they were wearing their id or their hive is i i didn't i didn't see that if i'm
01:08:23 i i didn't i didn't see that if i'm honest i didn't see them
01:08:27 but there was a degree of the community would know the staff better than i would at that point we were fully identifiable
01:08:38 at that point we were fully identifiable in our hives and our lanyards and if anybody stopped us or asked us where we were from we were quite happy to tell them who we were why we were there
01:08:49 them who we were why we were there but in terms of the rbkc staff i'm not 100
01:08:54 100 sure on that okay in terms of increasing visibility of staff yeah you mentioned of course that you were visible was our efforts from the 17th of june to increase
01:09:06 june to increase visibility there was um as part of my training and it's something that i really did take on board was to make sure you're visible at all times that people know who you are
01:09:17 people know who you are hence you know my name tag on a lanyard and my yellow hi-vis jacket on at all times
01:09:24 times um and it's so people can see you in a crowd people can can can focus on you and come to you if they need anything we also as part of the uh granville fire response team
01:09:35 response team had our
01:09:37 had our high vis jackets oh sorry tabards printed with grenfell fire response team on the back so we were clearly visible front and back as to who we were and anybody from ealing that
01:09:49 we were and anybody from ealing that attended wore a hi-vis uh jacket tabard rather and at that term grenfell fire response team that was a term which was to reflect the sort of
01:10:01 a term which was to reflect the sort of pan-london response from the 16th of june isn't that correct from the 17th i i believe is when um philip and i were there that's when you know we were talking to uh ealing and it
01:10:13 know we were talking to uh ealing and it was it was eating that had the the
01:10:16 the tabards printed and that's what we referred to ourselves as whether or not that name existed beforehand i don't know okay
01:10:24 know okay we're going to move on to another topic but i'm in the chair's hands whether you'd like me to move on now or whether it's time well we probably ought to have the break
01:10:33 the break quite soon shouldn't we and it's all next off we're going to be a little well
01:10:38 well it's probably about five minutes well i think it'd be best to take our break at this point right of course right well we do have a break during the morning as you've probably named mrs hardy and we'll take it now
01:10:49 hardy and we'll take it now we'll um
01:10:50 we'll um break here we'll resume at 20 to 12 please
01:10:52 please and while you're out of the room i have to ask you please not to talk to anyone about your evidence of course anything related
01:10:58 related all right thank you thank you very much would you go with the usher then please
01:11:12 you 20-12 please
01:29:42 would you ask mrs hardy to come back in please
01:29:56 all right are you ready to carry on i am thank you very much yes mr keating thank you mr chairman welcome back this is hardy we're dealing with obk staff we touched upon their visibility
01:30:08 staff we touched upon their visibility or our lack off on the 17th of june i wonder could we look at your statement in paragraph 60 please
01:30:16 and if we look at six bullet points from the end paragraph 60. probably need to go over leaf that's the correct reference
01:30:28 that's the correct reference actually if you could go back it's my fault
01:30:31 fault thank you
01:30:35 that's it there was some obk see officers who did find me in the first couple of hours but they had no official role in response i contacted back and asked for
01:30:46 response i contacted back and asked for them to be removed from the site i did not feel they were adding value nor did i want to be hindered in my role as lelo
01:30:56 lelo excuse me that's okay and in relation to that what did you mean by they had no official role in their response well
01:31:05 well because we weren't told who was doing what and why they were there so when the officers and they were senior officers within the organization itself i remember them walking towards
01:31:17 itself i remember them walking towards me as i was outside westway you know with their notebooks and what have you and um i asked them what they what they were
01:31:28 i asked them what they what they were doing
01:31:29 doing you know what role they had to play within the response um because i didn't get anything meaningful or anything that i could think okay you're adding value or you've got a role to play it was just well i'm here i'm
01:31:40 to play it was just well i'm here i'm from rbkc
01:31:42 from rbkc but if you weren't part of the uh the response as of the point when we took over
01:31:48 over then you really didn't have a place in the response because you were just adding more confusion you know too many chiefs too many bosses too many people telling you what to do when it was our job
01:31:59 was our job to ascertain what was going on and start the delivery process to to identify the gaps working with the people that we had established or we were looking to establish working with so when you are
01:32:10 establish working with so when you are confronted by senior officers within the organization saying and i do and i do name some of them um in my contemporaneous notes um
01:32:21 them um in my contemporaneous notes um when you're looking at individuals that come to you with their titles as to you know
01:32:27 know we're senior officers and you know this is what we want to see what we want to do
01:32:32 do if there's no place for it there's no place for it because they for me what were they doing apart from stopping me from doing my job from moving forward with what it is that we had planned to
01:32:43 with what it is that we had planned to do we were looking to do to discovering the facts of the situation around westway and the rest center so quite simply i didn't think they were
01:32:54 quite simply i didn't think they were adding value therefore they shouldn't be there
01:32:57 there so your view was the reasons you set out they weren't adding value and you contacted the beck and asked for them to be removed one alternate would have been that you
01:33:09 one alternate would have been that you tried to bring them in to this response and try to integrate them to what you were implementing was that feasible i think that's a very fair comment
01:33:20 that's a very fair comment if their approach had been anything other than adversarial i probably would
01:33:27 so you recognize integration was something which was logically available but you mentioned a moment ago if their approach had been anything other than adversarial what do you mean by that
01:33:39 adversarial what do you mean by that when you are being approached by somebody that and we all know what it's like to to be intimidated or to have somebody approach you in a way that isn't overly friendly
01:33:51 isn't overly friendly then your guard goes up and you my immediate priority at that point was what can i do and how can i help so having somebody approach me
01:34:03 so having somebody approach me in that manner wasn't integrating enough for me whether that's a right decision or a wrong decision it was a decision i made at the scene
01:34:14 and was there anything else which led to you form the view that their they their or bkc staff you had contact with were being adversarial uh just that just their approach on that
01:34:26 uh just that just their approach on that on that saturday i wonder if you could turn to paragraph 115 please of your statement and it probably flows from what you have said
01:34:37 said that
01:34:38 that in terms of interaction yeah aside from perhaps a few or bkc staff i did not interact with them nor did i see them in significant numbers and i did not direct them during my deployment
01:34:50 deployment is that correct that's correct and is it the position that because of you your review that you formed as to the utility of all bkc staff you didn't you didn't call you did not interact
01:35:02 you didn't call you did not interact with them
01:35:03 with them i didn't interact with them because i didn't know who they were they weren't readily identifiable as i've said earlier this morning have they been
01:35:11 been readily identifiable had they come to us with meaningful exchanges or information on what they were doing and how they were working to support the bereaved survivors and residents of course i
01:35:23 survivors and residents of course i would have brought them in but i didn't i didn't experience that and if i didn't experience that and i didn't see them and i didn't interact with them how can i make use of them i'm going to move on now to the british red cross
01:35:34 red cross we've already discussed their your understanding of their role in relation to registration and
01:35:42 and the issues in relation to that as you described
01:35:46 described what was your experience of their wider contribution to the operation of the westway during the days when you were present wasn't aware of uh very much in terms of
01:35:58 wasn't aware of uh very much in terms of the red cross i did speak to a couple of individuals from the red cross but from the
01:36:02 the the desk that was located outside of the west way and you know they were all in their red cross uniforms with their insignia
01:36:10 insignia clearly on display all i saw of them was at the front desk and because they were there there was a few of them i did have to ask them to go
01:36:21 few of them i did have to ask them to go into the community towards maxilla itself and to if somebody's in uniform and they're easily recognizable as you know whether they're
01:36:32 they're emergency services or you know a red cross with their with their red cross badges on then it's easier for individuals within community to say right okay i recognize that uniform
01:36:43 right okay i recognize that uniform maybe i should go and ask that person for support or for that person in uniform if they are to support their response to say is there anything i can do how can i help did you know the west
01:36:54 do how can i help did you know the west way is you know is operating and these are the services so the reason i asked the red cross to disperse is that they were there in in numbers and they could go out towards the community and help
01:37:05 go out towards the community and help shepherd people back to the west way if they wanted the support services that we were starting to deliver from within the west way or if they wanted food or if they needed donations or if they wanted
01:37:16 they needed donations or if they wanted to come in and and just get some rest and in relation to that is that is that something that british red cross did when you encouraged them to do so they did yes and is this something which was implemented on the 17th of june or was
01:37:28 implemented on the 17th of june or was it later in the timeline um it was that first weekend it probably was the uh well i can't tell you the exact time but it was over that first weekend and it was to make use of the
01:37:40 weekend and it was to make use of the resources that we had and obviously the red cross are are a huge resource so i thought at that time maybe they can help get people and direct them back towards the west way
01:37:52 direct them back towards the west way what other matter which i can summarize it's from paragraph 119 of your statement five lines down is that one of the key changes we implemented working with the volunteers was to give direction to the red cross
01:38:04 was to give direction to the red cross team to allow all residents bereaved and families to access the rest center and this was a significant bone of contention and where they were being stopped from
01:38:15 and where they were being stopped from entering yeah and who who as you understood it was being stopped from entering the rest center the community the community um so the red cross were taking the names
01:38:29 and then issuing the different color wristbands so the wristbands were so they changed color every day and they were different for staff for volunteers and the community so we all had
01:38:41 and the community so we all had different wristbands according to our designation let's say um
01:38:46 um but not everybody could get in to the rest and i and i didn't understand why because rest center is there for anybody that it should be there for anybody and everybody within that area to come in and seek support
01:38:59 that area to come in and seek support whatever that sport support looks like and feels like to them that is the access point so we did say just you know can you just let people in don't
01:39:11 can you just let people in don't them let's not bar anybody from accessing us whether it's you know philip and i or the services or um the food you know the donations whatever it is
01:39:23 you know the donations whatever it is that you need even if you need to use a restroom let people in and in relation to that and greater access when was that implemented for the first weekend and i think that kind of went hand in hand with
01:39:35 that kind of went hand in hand with taking down the police tape uh uh making it more accessible so as i said earlier it didn't look like a crime scene uh working with the red cross to say look you know
01:39:48 say look you know they're not coming to a party they're coming for support so let's let people in let's let's be that that change for the community can move on now to um
01:39:59 can move on now to um the time
01:40:01 the time where you had contact with the london local authority gold yeah and that was on the 17th of june at around half past seven and is it right that you and philip lee
01:40:12 and is it right that you and philip lee morris were asked to join a meeting with john baradel and eleanor kelly and alex woodman that's right um was this the first time you met with anybody this senior
01:40:23 anybody this senior um from obkc or any other london council at that stage yes it was and this meeting obviously was in person it was down at the west way that's right and perhaps we could
01:40:34 way that's right and perhaps we could open up paragraph 46 of your statement dealing with this meeting on the evening of the 17th of june
01:40:45 and at paragraph 46 we can see the background of paragraph 45 and in paragraph 46 it says this they john baradel and or kelly and alex woodman asked for an open and honest
01:40:56 woodman asked for an open and honest assessment conversation update i told him both that things were chaotic there was a high degree of mistrust but anyone under response and a lack of delivery to address the outcomes needed
01:41:08 delivery to address the outcomes needed as well as service desks to support and meet those outcomes is that correct it is um what was john baradel and eleanor kelly's response to this
01:41:20 kelly's response to this open and honest assessment they asked the question they asked for our first-hand view and thoughts of that initial day on the response so
01:41:33 of that initial day on the response so it was by invitation uh that they sought a response from us and
01:41:40 and in light of everything that philip and i had experienced that day and everything we were feeding back to the back everything we documented whether it's in a sit rep or contemporaneous notes all the information and feedback that we've
01:41:52 the information and feedback that we've had from volunteers our interaction with bereaved and survivors it was critical
01:41:58 critical that we gave uh john baradel and eleanor kelly
01:42:04 kelly an honest
01:42:06 an honest view
01:42:07 view on what we had experienced that day and what was going on and the feedback directly from the community what we saw what we felt what we heard and we could see from your statement and perhaps i could summarize is that you
01:42:19 perhaps i could summarize is that you were asked by mr baradel what was needed and you responded for me to remain in control
01:42:26 control and you were thanked and then at paragraph 48 we see that mr baradel confirmed that the rest center was to be put under healing council's command who would take over
01:42:37 command who would take over the goal command for this site but in effect healing council would be responsible for the operation and management of
01:42:45 of the rest center at the west way that's right
01:42:52 and you also mentioned a paragraph 50 which i can perhaps summarize is that um you provided mr baradel and ellen kelly with a list of resources and items required
01:43:03 a list of resources and items required to help you and
01:43:06 and mr lee morris in your role is that correct it is perhaps we could turn to lbe five six zeroes fifty-five
01:43:19 this is something you've provided it's your exhibit but the the maker of the document is eleanor kelly the lady who we've mentioned chief executive london borough solik that's right
01:43:30 borough solik that's right and these are notes setting out things that are needed and starting at the top with structure it talks about roles and responsibility command and control identification badges with roles
01:43:43 badges with roles in brackets right people doing the right thing in the right way and the third line it states some continuity of personnel and management
01:43:56 and management those matters were they addressed in the time that you experienced after that meeting so on the 18th 19th to 20 seconds they were you considered
01:44:07 to 20 seconds they were you considered that there was a an improvement in relation to those there was because we weren't reporting to um or via a borough that we had no connection with them no
01:44:18 that we had no connection with them no understanding of how they operated in terms of their or in terms of their staffing and who was who so by bringing it under reeling um obviously philip and i are both from illinois council um
01:44:31 i are both from illinois council um we knew who was who with it from the chief executive down who the personnel were
01:44:38 were the roles and responsibilities if i just take them is is something that we worked with with the community and we designated for instance you know a donations lead a volunteer lead uh
01:44:50 donations lead a volunteer lead uh somebody to manage money that kind of thing yes uh command and control that was the structure um having everybody easily identify identifiable with their grenfell fire response tabards on
01:45:03 response tabards on uh the right people and again what i'm what i meant by uh the right people doing the right thing in the right way is that
01:45:12 is that a council organization is a vast entity it's a vast organization with lots of different specialisms lots of different divisions and people doing different things so when i'm talking about the right people is you know send me in or
01:45:23 right people is you know send me in or let me work with somebody that can set up the um the service desks the way that you know i envisioned um
01:45:32 um and doing the right thing the right way is to keep the community uh at the core of all of the decisions that we made because it was about them it wasn't about us
01:45:42 about us i was going to draw out a few more matters which you which are noted in eleanor kelly's note
01:45:50 note and that derives from the meeting you had with her proper physical arrangements there's a lot of things listed there but includes help desks a quiet room faith spaces and private meetings
01:46:03 and private meetings and then if we turn over to page two in relation to other matters well we can see at the bottom page one need accurate information
01:46:14 in relation to numbers using and visiting the center need a log of people staying overnight a matter which we've heard about already and at page two we see the issue regarding hotels being
01:46:26 we see the issue regarding hotels being raised again a single point of contact for each hotel proper information as who is there proper communication what they should do to access delivery of goods goods foods to be delivered and
01:46:38 of goods goods foods to be delivered and a follow-up calls mechanism
01:46:43 after raising these matters and these are noted by eleanor kelly did you notice from your experience in the the next following days whether there was improvement in relation to both the the rest center and its
01:46:55 both the the rest center and its presentation um i definitely noticed a difference in in terms of the the rest center in
01:47:05 in and i think the reason for that is that when ealing took gold command and it was from that night and obviously it was active it was more active and more visible from the morning of
01:47:17 visible from the morning of the 18th of june and we had a corporate board presence which was greatly received especially by philip and i so we we had the support and we also felt
01:47:28 we we had the support and we also felt empowered
01:47:29 empowered to do what it is that was necessary to take all of these decisions forward and make a difference um in terms of the the the staff that were involved
01:47:41 the the the staff that were involved again going back to my earlier point we had the right people from the right teams even all the way down to a locust from the safer safer communities team that's used to taking
01:47:53 communities team that's used to taking uh
01:47:54 uh notes at a very fast pace accurately all of these little things helped a corporate board being there from the chief executive to the former leader of building council to
01:48:07 building council to the members of the executive directors group including our borough commander who was keith townsend at the time was immense for us at that time so you've mentioned
01:48:19 for us at that time so you've mentioned from the 18th when london revealing yeah took over control formally is that there was that senior leadership presence in terms of your dealings with mr baradel and eleanor kelly
01:48:32 mr baradel and eleanor kelly um is it right that that was the only direct communication you had with them that the night before on the 17th it was for that weekend yes and in terms of this the descript the support that they
01:48:43 this the descript the support that they provided you those in london gold john barrardo and eleanor kelly how would you describe it um
01:48:51 um i was told later on that um john baradel and eleanor coming to to the site was um was unprecedented and now that's an
01:49:02 was unprecedented and now that's an overused word um but in this instance when i i really didn't have an idea who they were when i was asked to go into a meeting until philip informed me of the
01:49:14 meeting until philip informed me of the significance and the role that they played within the response obviously i knew
01:49:19 knew that gold were overseeing everything but when they came down we felt heard we felt seen and we felt valued and therefore we felt empowered to to carry on you know it was it's not
01:49:31 to to carry on you know it was it's not as if i sought permission from anybody with all the decisions that i was making rightly or wrongly through the response um on that first day but when they turned up that evening you feel that
01:49:44 turned up that evening you feel that your actions are validated and from the emails that i've seen um
01:49:51 um from within healing to state that prior to our arrival it was chaos and the early competent people were from healing so when they came down and actually told us that
01:50:02 us that face to face we knew that we were doing something right and we just had to carry on doing it
01:50:08 it i'm gonna move on to do with a discrete item which is central government support and during your time at the west west centre will you provide any support from central government that would include
01:50:20 central government that would include the department of communities and local government dclg as it was known as as then
01:50:25 then yes um i do remember meeting some individuals from the dclg and they came down to set up some desks but i didn't have
01:50:37 but i didn't have an active or an in-depth uh relationship or
01:50:43 or couldn't really afford anybody much time um at that point because we were so busy trying to get the center up and running but that you know we needed um desks for you know from uh postal services to
01:50:56 you know from uh postal services to driving licenses to passports to visas so that kind of thing we needed their support on but we just you know let them in and it's like you this is your this is your job you set up the desk
01:51:08 is your job you set up the desk and in relation to that involvement central government departments who came down and attended and and set up help desks did you consider that involvement assisted with
01:51:19 consider that involvement assisted with the provision of support to those who are affected yeah i did all of those services that were there were needed i could examine
01:51:30 i could examine more to support which was then there thereafter provided at the rest center and you mentioned paragraph 34 of your statement we don't need to look at it that when you arrived at the rest center back in the 17th of june there was no
01:51:42 back in the 17th of june there was no signs telling residents what the rest center offered services are held who to speak to and so on
01:51:49 on and what did you do you and philip lee mars do to remedy this issue regarding the lack of signage we got flip chart paper and wrote up um that it was the the the rest center we
01:52:02 that it was the the the rest center we wrote out the services that there was donations so we actually created those signs and stuck them to the walls in the windows within the main area of the rest center and we use flip
01:52:14 area of the rest center and we use flip charts to keep ourselves updated on what was going on so it was literally marker pens and paper yes so you did the best you could with the resources that we had we had to
01:52:26 with the resources that we had we had to improvise so we did and is it fair to say after those initial efforts over the weekend of the 17th and 18th of june that there was still remaining issues regarding the presentation of signs at the west way
01:52:39 presentation of signs at the west way there were there were um but we did uh we were aware that they were going to be printed and placed around westway and the site of westway as well uh you know the grenfell assistance
01:52:51 uh you know the grenfell assistance center to
01:52:53 center to direct people and to detail the services that were on offer but for that first weekend it was it was pen and paper we perhaps don't need to turn to it but
01:53:05 we perhaps don't need to turn to it but we've got a situation report annealing one again
01:53:08 one again um 1912 on the 19th of june so the monday evening where within that key townsend the name you mentioned refers to further work required to improve on-site signage yes
01:53:20 required to improve on-site signage yes and general communication about the center
01:53:23 center yeah so there was an awareness that this was an issue oh yes and it was efforts ongoing to address that yeah
01:53:31 perhaps we could look at paragraph 98 of your statement please
01:53:42 and it's something we've mentioned a couple of times in passing help desks and you say this when i arrived to spain the 70th gen as i've stated the help desks were a jumble of desks and just
01:53:53 desks were a jumble of desks and just beyond the turnstiles they were manned by staff but it was difficult to know what was going on and what the support being offered was i did not know who's managing this but it was clear that a better more effective process was necessary and you
01:54:06 effective process was necessary and you worked on creating such a process is that fair that's correct and perhaps to assist everybody that we could see some images in
01:54:17 that we could see some images in relation to that we're going to see a plan and then we're going to see some photographs there shouldn't be anything in that mr chairman which is distressing but perhaps i should add an abundance of
01:54:28 perhaps i should add an abundance of caution give a trigger warning that we're going to look at the waistline thank you so does anybody who may find this distressing just to give them the opportunity to leave the room or um
01:54:39 um not watch on the live feed
01:54:44 so we're talking about the full floor plan and we're going to move now on to lbe
01:54:49 lbe six zeroes 40 please
01:54:56 so this is the grenfell assistance center standing operating procedure posing here for a moment we know from your statement this is a document which was created by you and your colleagues
01:55:07 was created by you and your colleagues um during your time at at um the west way to try to bring some order and some process is that correct that's right it was under the jurisdiction of our head of emergency
01:55:19 jurisdiction of our head of emergency management donna wootton and uh philip and i contributed towards this document so in terms of the discussion when were the photographs taken do you
01:55:30 when were the photographs taken do you remember
01:55:31 remember oh gosh that was the first weekend okay yeah so chairman i think we might hopefully cover cover those dates in a moment yes we will
01:55:39 will and bring some clarity if we could turn to page 27 please thank you so we see there so
01:55:50 we see there so this is
01:55:51 this is service stalls let's give everyone an opportunity just to acclimatize so the floor plan grenville assistance center the service doors are in the right-hand side in a sort of u-shape is
01:56:03 right-hand side in a sort of u-shape is that correct that's right um it perhaps speaks for itself there's a comfy seating area children's play area a divider and a center and then we can see that there's other
01:56:14 and then we can see that there's other charities such as this cab and a help desk on the opposite side and the left-hand side of the divider is that correct yeah yes and in relation to
01:56:27 yeah yes and in relation to plan
01:56:28 plan can you assist approximately when this was introduced um
01:56:36 um going back to the situation of the array or you know the one or two desks beyond the turnstiles and there was lots of people milling about there was also people eating food
01:56:47 about there was also people eating food there so it wasn't conducive to even holding
01:56:50 holding a degree a degree of conversations in private or to understand needs but because there was a need and there were a number of services that had to come in
01:57:01 a number of services that had to come in and support the bereaved and survivors that small area wasn't going to be sufficient so the idea was to have this horseshoe i i i do business process for a living so my idea
01:57:14 business process for a living so my idea was to have a process where people could come in from one side and work their way around the services that were offered to to receive um the support the advice the
01:57:25 to receive um the support the advice the help
01:57:26 help uh that they required this was put together again it's again going back to the point of having the right people at the right time to do the right thing this was put together by our
01:57:38 right thing this was put together by our hospitality and events team this this plan but it was absolutely what we had envisaged that first day so that would have started happening probably on the monday okay from the
01:57:50 probably on the monday okay from the sunday well probably from the monday and i wasn't obviously on site on the monday just pausing there for a moment it's a long answer sorry probably on the monday and i'm keen that
01:58:01 probably on the monday and i'm keen that we capture all your evidence but if you focus as best you can on the question which was when do you think it was introduced which was the monday and i'm i anticipate we'll capture those other matters in in in a moment
01:58:15 if we could go to page 33 please
01:58:25 and the bottom image of page 33 we can look at
01:58:29 look at and it stays there view of all sources before the screen dividers were installed
01:58:35 installed so again just to give everyone an opportunity of what the west way we've heard a lot about it what it looked like so this would have been on your account would you have been at the weekend
01:58:46 would you have been at the weekend of the 17 and 18 if your belief was the horseshoe
01:58:50 horseshoe was introduced by the monday the 19th yeah i was in that it was in that week after that first weekend
01:59:01 we see some signage there does that help you in terms of dating the document the document was created um we contributed towards it on the monday
01:59:13 we contributed towards it on the monday the 19th um when this was created i can't give you an exact date of when this uh look and feel was implemented um yes it's probably another imprecise
01:59:26 um yes it's probably another imprecise question for me i'm just trying to see if we could date the photograph but we see that there is high vis yeah and tabard's visible there and we can see some some
01:59:37 some signage
01:59:41 were those signs that you had put up or were they already there it's signs that we that were created um so it's uh to designate what each area
01:59:52 so it's uh to designate what each area was delivering uh whether it was housing or social care or you know yeah i understand that but were they signs that you had caught i had not created them you hadn't done them i hadn't created them so they were
02:00:03 hadn't created them so they were pre-existing they were after that first weekend so they were created thank you if we um scroll up to see the other image at the top page 33. so in some
02:00:14 image at the top page 33. so in some respects we've seen the before and after this is the after and this is the the barrier the screen which is divided to room which was implemented as as one of your ideas in this new process is that
02:00:25 your ideas in this new process is that correct yeah yeah that is why all right if we you yourself took photographs which you've provided inquiry i did and perhaps we
02:00:36 provided inquiry i did and perhaps we could look at those as well please and that's lbe and we've got six zeros again 51.
02:00:46 perhaps we could if possible just blow that up a little bit more and as it says there these are photographs taken join your deployment as layla the rest center and you've helpfully dated them this is
02:00:57 and you've helpfully dated them this is the 22nd of june so this is your last day
02:01:00 day yes can you recall when those soft furnishings had been when they were provided oh gosh no i don't know the precise day of delivery
02:01:11 don't know the precise day of delivery well were they there when you first arrived no and it's probably likely that there weren't something that was raised in your meeting with mr baradel likely it was
02:01:20 was yeah self-furnishing so people uh coming to the west way whilst they're receiving services or waiting that they would be comfortable you know the priority was to make it
02:01:32 you know the priority was to make it welcoming and having soft furnishings you know you can see rugs as well as sofas was really important and one can understand why let's move on please the next page page two and we'll see
02:01:44 the next page page two and we'll see some more in terms of furnishings first image is the sports hall service desk and children's play area again on the 22nd of june
02:01:55 the 22nd of june may i mention that the children's area or a creche area where children could play while their parents or carers were seeking support
02:02:07 parents or carers were seeking support came directly from community volunteers to request that so we we implemented it on their request and that was part of your listening brief that you've mentioned to us yes
02:02:19 brief that you've mentioned to us yes and if we see at the bottom of that picture page page two forgive me we see
02:02:26 we see signage as of the 22nd of june financial support for and then it lists some addresses which we're familiar with is that correct that's right and overleaf page three
02:02:39 i think in fact i can recognize two of the people there that's you on the right and mr morris is that correct lee morris on the left that's right and that's the food and donations table
02:02:50 and that's the food and donations table which we can see on the 18th of june from your date at the back is that correct that's right
02:03:00 and then if we turn over to page four please
02:03:04 we see signage outside the rest center this is the first of july yes
02:03:13 and that's one of the signs yes
02:03:18 and we could see at the the bottom of this figure seven assistance center a bigger sign than the first one yes and that's directing people were to go again dated the first of july that's
02:03:31 again dated the first of july that's right
02:03:35 and so you've mentioned already we can we can turn that and we don't need to have those images anymore thank you very much
02:03:42 much in relation to the support your intention you talk about process was to try to
02:03:47 try to improve matters yes and especially having the u-shape for different desks support desks and were you aware of any criticism that one of the effects
02:03:59 of any criticism that one of the effects of that process of having a number of different help desks was that an individual who needed support would have to repeat their account more than once yes i was aware i was aware of a lot
02:04:11 yes i was aware i was aware of a lot later rather than at the time yes so in terms of a lesson learned is there a lesson learned there perhaps about the process there's a tell us once process for me that's a really big
02:04:23 for me that's a really big it's a really big lesson for me as well
02:04:26 as well and i think for anybody responding um it's harrowing having to and i can only imagine because you know whilst i was there i was in support but
02:04:38 whilst i was there i was in support but having to give your details from one day to the nexus to the next desk i i can only apologize for that i do think that a better system needs to be implemented a tell us once where the
02:04:50 be implemented a tell us once where the information is collected at a single point then filtered through the emergency response so that everybody that's delivering within those services has those details up so the only thing
02:05:01 has those details up so the only thing that you should give is your name and then your details should flash up on a screen um and i wasn't aware of that at the time um well you mentioned you had one hour of layla training and yeah your
02:05:13 one hour of layla training and yeah your intention of attending but thank you very much for that um contribution in relation to things to to change or to bear in mind i want to deal with a couple of other areas briefly if
02:05:25 with a couple of other areas briefly if i may because they're helpfully set out comprehensively in your statement which is provision of food and drink and is this a fair summary that there was when you arrived no food management or
02:05:38 when you arrived no food management or identification of food and aid needs apart from those which were recognized by volunteers that's right and after you assume control the rest center
02:05:48 center and one of your
02:05:52 processes which was implemented was to try to
02:05:55 try to introduce outside seating yes when it was very hot but two to make it better for those who were breaking their fast during ramadan to break their fast together outside the rest center that's
02:06:07 together outside the rest center that's right
02:06:12 and in relation to those who were observing ramadan was there any efforts to try to ensure that there was food available for those at that time once they were breaking their fast
02:06:23 they were breaking their fast there was um a lot of food from local restaurants um there was food from the from the local gurdwara and the gurdwara in south all i believe there was a lot of community-based food
02:06:35 there was a lot of community-based food donations a lot of community-based food organizations that had come in to feed the bereaved and survivors and feed those that were working there i
02:06:46 and feed those that were working there i must admit their generosity was abundant um
02:06:50 um there were there were drinks and there were sandwiches there was the west way cafe as well that were giving out teas and coffees but there wasn't any any uh
02:07:01 and coffees but there wasn't any any uh process in place aside from um
02:07:04 um what the community volunteers brought to it and what we wanted to piggyback off and support and develop i think for me one of the biggest things is um being
02:07:15 one of the biggest things is um being aware of the the fact that it was in the holy month of ramadan understanding that there were different dietary needs understanding the importance of the ifdar meal
02:07:27 the importance of the ifdar meal understanding the importance of breaking fast together and understanding that we were coming up towards um eid and how important that is culturally within the the area of north
02:07:39 culturally within the the area of north kensington something that i wasn't aware of when i went into
02:07:45 went into the role of lelo but something that i quickly learned because of the support from certain
02:07:52 certain volunteers lubna being one nadia being another
02:07:56 another um
02:07:57 um you know so many so many of them uh informed me with that information i could use that to to support the briefed and the survivors and hopefully do do the right
02:08:09 survivors and hopefully do do the right thing yes in terms of culture and cultural sensitivity i'm going to move on please to financial support
02:08:17 support and you you say this in your statement a paragraph 36 perhaps i could summarize it for you when you were first attended the westway the outgoing lelo handed you a brown envelope containing cash with
02:08:29 a brown envelope containing cash with names handwritten on the back indicating where they had been given money to those that came to the rest center that was the position what did you understand the process of any in
02:08:40 understand the process of any in relation to the distribution of financial assistance i had no idea completely honestly i had absolutely no idea um
02:08:49 idea um that it was happening uh in terms of you know the the the cash handouts and and the way in which they were being managed or not managed and in relation to introducing any
02:09:01 and in relation to introducing any guidance or strategy was one implemented for discretionary payments in terms of what the the 500 or the 5000 or the well you mentioned that you're just given a
02:09:12 just given a yeah
02:09:13 yeah okay yeah
02:09:15 okay yeah did you change that i i didn't there was so much going on what i did was i gave it back and said i'd you whoever's running or delivering the the financial management side or the
02:09:27 financial management side or the donation just carry on i didn't really i didn't take that on board and i didn't change it because i was busy doing other things if they had their own process
02:09:38 their own process where they were giving out money because it was from our big it was still under rbkc at that point it wasn't under reeling so on that first day it was still rbkc so if they were doing what they had to do in terms of ensuring the
02:09:51 they had to do in terms of ensuring the discretionary payments um we're getting to the residence and carry on because i'm busy doing all of the reconnaissance stuff
02:09:58 stuff and the other bits i have to do so that i didn't do immediately no
02:10:05 so in terms of your direct knowledge of the financial aspects because of your focus on other matters understandably that wasn't an area which you had significantly no no but to be handed an
02:10:16 significantly no no but to be handed an envelope full of cash with names written on the back i told them to until they were passing it out uh to those that presented and requested it to keep it in a lot in a locked locker or
02:10:28 keep it in a lot in a locked locker or something where it was safe yes perhaps
02:10:32 perhaps we could have your assistance in relation to one matter under this umbrella financial assistance before we move on it's obk four zeros four one four four please this is an email dated at 18 of june
02:10:44 this is an email dated at 18 of june from alex russell director of communication and community engagement at the westway trust who was one of the officials at the westwood sports center
02:10:55 westwood sports center so it's alex russell we see there the westway 18th of june at 1640 and
02:11:02 and copied into other people you are not a recipient in this email but i just want to know whether you are aware of this issue
02:11:10 issue and
02:11:11 and we have a number of people contacting us for money today and are supported with the funds we have here many people are either unaware of the opportunities for them at the sports centre or they do and they can't travel are scared to go there
02:11:22 they can't travel are scared to go there because it feels too official i've suggested to healing team at westway sports center to make a team of people available who are working in the field going to people's accommodation and distribute distributing funds
02:11:35 and distribute distributing funds i've been told keith has keith townsend is not prepared to do this because they do not have the resources i have had a request for me to go to the premier inn in hammersmith to distribute
02:11:46 premier inn in hammersmith to distribute money to survivors and those impacted i can do this but i have a limited amount of money to give out today were you aware of this need for emergency funds to be distributed to
02:11:58 emergency funds to be distributed to those in hotels on the 18th of june no i wasn't
02:12:02 wasn't and we know in relation to premier in in hammersmith that on the 19th of june six days after the fire we've heard already that the londoner of harrison and fulham undertook an independent check
02:12:14 undertook an independent check and found 12 families there who had no money and had not been visited by or bkc but from your evidence today is that something you weren't aware of i wasn't aware of this
02:12:26 aware of i wasn't aware of this thank you well let's move on to donations please and and again it's a it's an important matter but one we can deal with perhaps succinctly is this is this fair is that
02:12:37 succinctly is this is this fair is that and there was a significant amount of donations which were at the west way both perishable and and other matters which were non-perishable that's right
02:12:49 non-perishable that's right and in relation to those um it was the volunteers as you say at paragraph 108 were those who had coordinated themselves into sorting this and distributing items and requesting items
02:13:01 distributing items and requesting items that were needed is that correct that's right yeah and at that stage were you aware whether or bkc or the red cross or any other local authority staff were they assisting with the organization of
02:13:12 assisting with the organization of donations
02:13:15 donations um
02:13:16 um at the time i didn't identify who again i'm going to say this again who was staff and who was a volunteer um i've later found out there were staff because i recognized their faces having seconded
02:13:28 i recognized their faces having seconded over to rbkc and you know working at the curve but at that point um no i i my assumption was i'm from what i saw there were a lot of volunteers sorting out
02:13:39 were a lot of volunteers sorting out especially in the basketball courts there were there were masses of donations that needed to be sorted out you know
02:13:46 you know clothes
02:13:47 clothes etc so for somebody who was there on the ground and had direct experience of the donations how would you describe the the impacts whether positive or negative
02:13:59 the impacts whether positive or negative of so many physical donations at the west wing
02:14:03 west wing it was overwhelming there was a there was so much there was so much there there was so much coming in um
02:14:11 um we had um calls from beck saying not to accept any more donations which we rejected uh philip and i rejected based on the fact that it
02:14:23 on the fact that it it wouldn't it wouldn't come across well it wouldn't be the right thing to do people have traveled or ascending things from you know not only london but all around the country uh we had one uh delivery i
02:14:36 country uh we had one uh delivery i think it was either yorkshire way or wales i can't remember that came in a truck and i'm not going to turn them away so we took all donations in it was overwhelming
02:14:47 overwhelming but that could be sorted out later it was the goodwill behind the donations that was important in terms of resources being
02:14:58 in terms of resources being looking at this from a managerial or personnel perspective how much resources was used whether it's volunteers or
02:15:09 volunteers or or bkc or london healing staff were used to
02:15:14 to manage the physical donations when um
02:15:18 when um when ealing took gold obviously we had a donations lead that worked with the volunteers it was more volunteers from what i saw working within the basketball courts to try and
02:15:30 within the basketball courts to try and sort out what was what and to pass on any donations to individuals in need of them i can't tell you how many people were involved there were just there was
02:15:41 were involved there were just there was so much and so many
02:15:45 more than a handful of people gosh yes
02:15:48 gosh yes i'm going to move on to the final section and it's it's to deal with um lessons learned and it's something which you have reflected upon yourself and you've assisted by that in
02:16:00 yourself and you've assisted by that in your statement and you
02:16:03 and you prepared a personal briefing documents which you produce as an exhibit outlining those lessons learned and perhaps we could have a look at that it's lbe
02:16:12 it's lbe and it's six zeros again 56. we can look at the first page it's a it's a an aid when war that you prepared correct yeah is this something you
02:16:23 correct yeah is this something you prepared after the event it was yeah yes and your source of information for preparing this post-incident amen war did that include
02:16:34 post-incident amen war did that include the notes you made contemporaneously absolutely yes and was that supplemented by
02:16:39 by recollections and reflections as well yeah it was learning um on the job yes so there's a lot there and what i'm going to do with your assistance is if we can turn to page 3
02:16:50 assistance is if we can turn to page 3 please
02:16:54 initial lessons learned and there there's about 20 bullet points and i'm not going to take you through them all we've considered them and will consider them of course would care
02:17:05 them of course would care i will draw out some of those in the next few minutes but
02:17:11 but lots of points there but perhaps one way of dealing with this is this if you were to highlight the most important lesson that you learned or could be learned from your experiences what would it be
02:17:24 from your experiences what would it be i would
02:17:25 i would i would get involved and seek the assistance and the support and work more collaboratively with the community and the community volunteers i would also seek out and work more collaboratively
02:17:37 seek out and work more collaboratively with the organizations that were already on the ground harrow rugby portobello etc the organizations that have a presence for a very long time within the area
02:17:48 very long time within the area um i didn't know of their existence whilst i was at the west way and we just got snippets of information but it's to not to approach this response as
02:18:01 not to approach this response as a statutory entity council or government but to
02:18:06 but to understand and realize that there are lots of bridges that need to be crossed and lots of gaps that need to be closed and the only way you can do that is by working with those that live in the area
02:18:18 working with those that live in the area work in the area and are affected by what's gone on in the area so i'm going to just draw out a few matters it says initial lessons learned although some of it perhaps is more a comment on the
02:18:30 perhaps is more a comment on the adequacies of the response the first one we can see is while the response for cross council had been
02:18:37 had been triggered there was an abject lack of operational control and assigned roles and responsibilities and you've mentioned that to us this morning yes and your second bullet point is the immediate and initial command presence
02:18:48 immediate and initial command presence on site is is useful to calm residents and other parties involved yes um and you mentioned in your evidence to us already having this sort
02:18:59 evidence to us already having this sort of the healing corporate directive those senior members yeah from ealing council both paid and representative councillors for those being on the ground on the
02:19:11 for those being on the ground on the 18th of june that made a material difference a hundred percent and was that material difference to to staff
02:19:18 to staff who were there or was it to the public or both i think it's really important not to
02:19:25 not to undervalue the significance of having your bosses there when you're delivering to a role and especially in delivering to something as traumatic and as harrowing
02:19:36 something as traumatic and as harrowing because of things that we saw in the things that we heard to have that presence of our our corporate board and the leader of the council there is shows that they support us and that
02:19:47 is shows that they support us and that they have faith in what we what we were doing
02:19:51 doing to to have that presence seen by the community in the residence um
02:19:57 um that there is a hierarchy with the needing council that is on the ground we treated kensington north kensington as if the disaster happened within healing that's how seriously we all individually
02:20:10 that's how seriously we all individually and collectively took our roles in relation to other matters you raised we can see about bullet point four
02:20:21 about bullet point four notice boards on site to inform says can be flip charts to start with and it says this information leaflets need to be distributed within hours to manage expectations these need to be
02:20:33 manage expectations these need to be issued to all community centers acting as release centers as well as communicated by social media news websites yeah so in relation to communication this
02:20:44 so in relation to communication this refers to
02:20:45 refers to yeah
02:20:46 yeah and leaflets these are for public is that correct yes um i do believe and um those that work with me know that i always say communication is king it
02:20:58 always say communication is king it absolutely is in this in this situation we for me it was um communicating what's on offer what can we do why are we there
02:21:09 offer what can we do why are we there you know why is healing taken over what what's services what support is available to the community the brief survivors and residents
02:21:20 why are we there what are we doing to help
02:21:23 help we need to communicate that pretty quickly
02:21:26 quickly and i think one of the lessons is to have that social media hit the button and it goes out have it prepared well let's follow true in this
02:21:37 prepared well let's follow true in this theme to use your phrase communication is king
02:21:40 is king we have three bullet points from the bottom it says this clear and regular communication by gold comms
02:21:48 comms is necessary to inform the public on a humanitarian relief effort being delivered and by reference to goal comms here your that
02:21:59 that london local authority goal comes you're referring to yes or um the local authority in charge all local authorities have uh their own comms teams so it's working in
02:22:10 comms teams so it's working in collaboration depending on the size and the scale of the response whether it's local borough or pan london there should be a process in place and just just picking up the phrase gold
02:22:21 and just just picking up the phrase gold comms in in this context looking back when you were involved when the london local authority resolution had been activated were there issues with regards to clear and regular communication by
02:22:32 to clear and regular communication by gold comms to the public during the response
02:22:36 response that you experienced from the 17th of june
02:22:39 june i think that's that's um reflected in um the feedback from the volunteers in the community as to why we were there or who was
02:22:50 why we were there or who was um you know what obviously everybody knew what had happened but what had happened to um to decide that eling was now um as gold lead within the royal bar of kensington
02:23:03 lead within the royal bar of kensington and chelsea but also where to go what services whether they're central or peripheral to the response or on offer so that clear strategic thread from
02:23:16 so that clear strategic thread from gold right down to the ground needs to be delivered needs to be operated and delivered so that was what i'm trying to say here is that through gold whether that's distributed to you know a local
02:23:28 that's distributed to you know a local authority through their comms team but that channel of coms yes sorry yes i know it was happening within um you know eling's executive director group we're talking
02:23:39 executive director group we're talking to gold comms but
02:23:41 but we did get some of that information not all of that information so if we're getting sketchy information what information is the community or those directly affected getting so it was it was just you know you need to
02:23:52 was it was just you know you need to package it and deliver it in a way that it makes sense and in relation to this your chief executive who's statement we've read out already says at paragraph 35
02:24:02 35 of a statement communication to community and families of public messages was a challenge true out this led to individuals and families attending the center before processes were fully in place maintaining a
02:24:14 were fully in place maintaining a reporting line with the humanitarian assistance steering group assisted with meeting this challenge do you agree with that assessment that it was a challenge throughout and
02:24:25 throughout and sometimes families and individuals attended the center before processes were fully in place well they should be attending the center regardless of whether or not a process is fully in place and then we just have
02:24:36 is fully in place and then we just have to deliver to the best of our ability you can't set up a process which we saw at the first weekend and say right okay everything's ready you can come in now it doesn't work like that in a disaster
02:24:48 it doesn't work like that in a disaster you have to have you know and a lot of the decisions in the way in which we operated yes they weren't textbook pan london response but we use common sense we used our initiative and we used our experience as
02:25:00 initiative and we used our experience as local authority officers in our designated roles to do the best that we could so yes in an ideal world which it wasn't you would have these systems and processes set up you would probably have
02:25:12 processes set up you would probably have the systems and processes set up from the night of the fire not on day four so yes we were we were on a back foot it would be it would be it would have been great for us to walk in and have
02:25:23 great for us to walk in and have everything set up but we had to do that whilst dealing with with everything else that was happening as well so you know whether or not i agree with it it's not what happened
02:25:35 it's not what happened well mrs harding very grateful for your time today there there are the questions i have for you and what i'm going to do is mr chairman is asked for a short period of time to see if there's any questions from those
02:25:47 see if there's any questions from those who are watching are those in the room yes um how long do you think would be appropriate i think
02:25:55 i think five minutes should be sufficient though well if we say course to one i'll give you slightly more thank you all right um mrs hardy when council gets the end of his questions we have to have a short break to
02:26:05 break to enable him to take stock and also to enable others who are following the proceedings from elsewhere to suggest questions that perhaps ought to be put to you so we'll break now until
02:26:16 put to you so we'll break now until course to one and then when you come back we'll see if there are any more questions for you of course all right so um would you give the usher obviously thank you thank you
02:26:34 well we'll come back of course to one unless you let us know you need more time thank you very much
02:34:39 would you answer this is hardly to come back in please
02:34:47 thank you
02:34:53 all right this is hardy we'll see if there any more questions for you yes mister thank you mr chairman there's just one matter really which is this is there anything else that you wanted to
02:35:04 anything else that you wanted to add to your evidence which may assist the inquiry with its investigations uh not at this moment no no can't think of anything okay well thank you so much
02:35:15 of anything okay well thank you so much may i may i read my personal statement is that an option what is this personal statement it's just
02:35:22 just a statement that i wrote prior as part of my witness uh statement and we've seen it already you've seen it oh you may have the advantage of this
02:35:33 oh you may have the advantage of this i'm not sure i'm i'm familiar with the exact documents you're referring to so it's the first page of my witness statement yes well if if you feel that there's a matter which you wanted to assist
02:35:44 assist the panel with and perhaps you could refer to that then should we get the statement up so we can follow it would that be a good thing thank you
02:35:51 thank you yeah it's the it's yes it's the of course i now understand
02:35:58 right well um we have those in front of us paragraph two and paragraph three are the matters you're referring to yes do you want to read it out i just wanted us to read it uh i i don't mind reading it out
02:36:13 well you read it out if you wanted okay so i just want i i wrote this and i just wanted to say that i i would like to offer my deepest condolences to the bereaved and survivors who lost loved
02:36:24 bereaved and survivors who lost loved ones in the devastating grenfell tower fire on the 14th of june 2017. many of whom i met and philip and i both met during our deployment at the rest center during the 17th to the 22nd of
02:36:36 center during the 17th to the 22nd of june
02:36:37 june and my subsequent shifts from the 10th to the 20th of july 2017 and then throughout my secondment with rbkc from that september to march 2018.
02:36:48 that september to march 2018. it was my honor and privilege to have worked at the rest center during the first weekend after the grenfell tower fire to the 22nd of june 2017 and i have the utmost respect and
02:37:00 and i have the utmost respect and admiration for you all including the north kensington residents and volunteers all of whom rallied around each other providing the help and support from the night of the fire which
02:37:11 support from the night of the fire which was otherwise missing under intense national and international media scrutiny scrutiny dealing with bereavement loss loss of property and possession you have conducted yourselves
02:37:23 possession you have conducted yourselves with dignity strength love and resilience and have continued to do so it goes on to the following page if we could turn over then please thank you
02:37:33 you i was fortunate to have been deployed at the rest center to use my skills and experience working closely with volunteers in order to create a centre to cocoon those affected and meet their
02:37:45 to cocoon those affected and meet their up their most urgent needs from this experience i will take away lifelong friendships and a deep love and respect for the bereaved survivors and residents of grenfell tower and north kensington i
02:37:58 of grenfell tower and north kensington i may have left my official duties both the grenfell fire response team later as adviser to the curve community centre and finally as an aiding council officer but i will always continue to
02:38:11 officer but i will always continue to support you i would like to acknowledge and thank the westway staff um
02:38:16 um for allowing us to use their site and supporting us while we operate at the rest centre finally to ealing council and obviously to philip as well to healing council's executive board
02:38:28 to healing council's executive board leader former leader of the council and colleagues during the period of the 17th of june to the 22nd of june we all came together to respond to a disaster as one team
02:38:39 team helping our neighbouring borough in a time of great need and together we made a difference treating north kensington residents as though they were our own thank you all for stepping up i think
02:38:51 thank you all for stepping up i think it's
02:38:52 it's fair to say that we made inning proud thank you mr chairman right thank you well mr hardy thank you so much firstly thank you for your evidence today and coming and also thank you for assisting the inquiry with your
02:39:04 you for assisting the inquiry with your written and oral evidence thank you and it's right i should thank you on behalf of the panel as well we've heard a lot about the westward center
02:39:13 center and i think you're the first person who's come to talk to us about the circumstances there and how it operated and
02:39:22 and even to describe and show us through your photographs and what it looked like inside so we're very grateful it's been very helpful to us so thank you very much indeed thank you mr chairman i know you're all free to go thank you so much
02:39:36 right would you like to go with the usher then you should look after you thank you
02:39:47 thank you very much mr keating now um we have another witness but i think two o'clock two o'clock if that's acceptable as long as that doesn't put you in any difficulty that seems very sensible
02:39:58 difficulty that seems very sensible thank you thank you very much we'll break there then and resume at two o'clock please
02:40:12 you