Michael Adamson, CEO of British Red Cross, testifies about the organization's response to Grenfell, revealing critical failures in RBKC's emergency response, chaotic coordination, and delays in registration. Adamson describes proactively offering help to RBKC on June 15th (mostly declined), finding the Grenfell Fire Response Team 'confused and chaotic' through the weekend, and identifying systemic issues with data sharing, community engagement, and support for vulnerable populations.
00:00:20 yes skating good afternoon mr chairman can i call michael adamson please thank you
00:00:34 good afternoon mr anderson good afternoon good afternoon i i gather you're going to a firm i am a date yes well the words should be there on the screen in front of you would you read them out please of course i do solemnly
00:00:45 them out please of course i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much and please sit down make yourself comfortable thank you
00:01:02 thank you so much for attending today and assistant inquiry with his investigations just a few words by way of introduction which we say to all witnesses
00:01:09 witnesses firstly could i invite you to keep your voice up as loud as you can so that the transcriber can capture what you have to say it also helps not to nod or shake your head but to say yes or no
00:01:20 or shake your head but to say yes or no and if any of my questions are unclear please just say so and i'm sure it's my fault and i can rephrase those and we will take a break probably this afternoon and mid-afternoon but if you need a break at any stage just please
00:01:31 need a break at any stage just please let us know i'm sure we can accommodate that
00:01:34 that in terms of formalities could we just deal with your statement please which you provided to inquiry and that's dated the 15th of july it's b or c and it is
00:01:44 and it is 6075.
00:01:48 so we can see there your statements the front page dated the 15th of july as we said 2019. if you could turn to page 36 please and we see your name in print and can
00:02:00 and we see your name in print and can you confirm that's your signature yes it is and
00:02:04 is and are those the contents of that statement true to the best your belief in knowledge yes they are thank you and have you had the opportunity to read your statements recently i have yes thank you excellent thank you just to assist you and to assist the
00:02:16 just to assist you and to assist the panel where your evidence is going to to cover it's going to fall into three areas firstly your dealings with nicholas holgas on the 15th of june
00:02:27 the 15th of june and secondly your involvement with the london gold response also known as the grenville fire response team and that occurred over the weekend onwards so that would
00:02:39 over the weekend onwards so that would be the 17th of june onwards and thirdly we're going to look forward and capture some of the lessons you consider
00:02:48 consider the british red cross have learned from the incidents and also the work that's been undertaken in the field especially by the british red cross in relation to the role of the voluntary sector
00:03:00 the role of the voluntary sector is that okay that sounds fine okay so that's that's our pathway and before we do that it just briefly matters by way of background and your position and since 2014 is it right that you've
00:03:11 and since 2014 is it right that you've held a position as chief executive of the british red cross that is correct and it's also correct that you are trustee of the disasters emergency committee which brings together 14 leading uk agencies whose function is to
00:03:24 leading uk agencies whose function is to raise money at times of humanitarian crises overseas yes sir and since the grenfell tower fire you've been appointed trustee of the national emergency trust which was set up in late
00:03:36 emergency trust which was set up in late 2019
00:03:38 2019 to collaborate with charities and other bodies to raise and dispute money and support at the time of a domestic disaster is that correct uh that's no longer the case i was a trustee until
00:03:49 longer the case i was a trustee until the end of towards the end of last year okay
00:03:52 okay so you were a trustee and this entity the national emergency trust deals with um
00:03:58 um emergencies and fundraising in terms of domestic context is that correct it is there to assist with the coordination of fundraising and in relation to the british red cross
00:04:09 and in relation to the british red cross you've helped helpfully set out your statement at paragraph 22 which we don't need to look at but the british red cross has 4 000 members of staff and is assisted by over 18 000 volunteers in
00:04:21 assisted by over 18 000 volunteers in its humanitarian work is that correct yes
00:04:24 yes perhaps we could look at paragraph 24 of your statement please as we examine the role of the british red cross and it's as you describe its special status so paragraph 24
00:04:36 so paragraph 24 the british request does also have a special status which means that it's neither forms part of government nor comprises a non-government organization brackets which differs from many other charitable bodies active within the
00:04:47 charitable bodies active within the voluntary sector close brackets this is its auxiliary our support function the uk public authorities in the humanitarian field
00:04:57 field and then it goes on to mention the charter which is the british red cross charter
00:05:02 charter is that correct that and the british red cross is in effect an auxiliary to government that is correct yes and the effect of this is perhaps can be
00:05:13 and the effect of this is perhaps can be seen at the bottom of paragraph 24 and
00:05:16 24 and you've written this this recognition enables an automatic relationship between the british red cross and the government such that the brc is required to have regard to the considerations of the government without being beholden to it
00:05:28 government without being beholden to it while carrying out his primary responsibility to alleviate sufferings in emergencies is that correct that is correct so there's a there's a special status is what you're saying of the british red cross within the
00:05:39 of the british red cross within the voluntary sector that's correct every every red cross or red crescent organization in every country in the world 192 countries has that auxiliary status with its government
00:05:50 government but its job is to support people in emergencies in times of crisis and to alleviate suffering and make good judgments about how to do that yes and in relation to local authorities is
00:06:02 and in relation to local authorities is it correct that the nature support provided by the british red cross during an emergency would be with reference from for example the memorandum of understanding as agreed between the british red cross and that local
00:06:13 british red cross and that local authority
00:06:14 authority that would be typically the arrangement yes
00:06:19 and the written evidence from your colleague emma sprague was that there was a memorandum of understanding between or bkc and the british red cross back in 2017
00:06:30 back in 2017 it perhaps was out of date but it was that's a pre-existing relationship that's my understanding yes and we can perhaps deal with this matter now if there was a memorandum of
00:06:42 now if there was a memorandum of understanding which had lapsed i.e was out of date would that inhibit or interfere with the support the british red cross would provide
00:06:52 provide um
00:06:54 um obviously our aim would be to ensure that
00:06:57 that memorandum understanding are up to date but fundamentally no we would we would respond in partnership with the authorities um while endeavouring to ensure that we
00:07:08 um while endeavouring to ensure that we were meeting need in the best way possible
00:07:10 possible and the
00:07:11 and the effect as we know in relation to the grenville tower response is from the 14th of june the british red cross
00:07:19 cross um was actively involved in a response isn't that correct that is correct perhaps we can now turn to the first area which i mentioned which was the 15th of june contact with nicholas
00:07:31 15th of june contact with nicholas holgate
00:07:33 holgate we'll hear later in the module from your colleague emma sprague who was very much involved in the operational aspects of the british red cross response from the 14th of june
00:07:45 the 14th of june and and for those reasons i can focus and touch upon your direct dealings if that's okay of course i'll be captured later on perhaps we could go to paragraph 64 please of your statements
00:07:59 and this is what you've written here we had decided at the elt meeting is that the executive leadership team meeting that's correct we decided the executive leadership team meeting that took place on thursday the 15th of june that i should proactively
00:08:11 15th of june that i should proactively get in touch with the then chief executive of all bkc nicholas holgate to obtain an update on the relief effort and to discuss additional ways in which the british red cross could potentially
00:08:22 the british red cross could potentially provide further assistance with the response
00:08:26 response is that right is that the position yes that's correct in terms of providing additional support is it the position and it was then that its british red cross could
00:08:38 its british red cross could offer to provide assistance but couldn't really
00:08:41 really um force upon a local authority its assistance yes our aim would be not normally in responding to an emergency we are commissioned by a local authority
00:08:52 commissioned by a local authority effectively and in
00:08:56 in but we can also be proactive in making offers to them um if we think a broader range of uh capabilities might be useful but it's an offer which requires the acceptance of the local authority uh
00:09:09 acceptance of the local authority uh that would be our preference yes well let's explore that a little bit more in relation to this meeting that you decided on the 15th of june that was necessary for you to proactively get in touch with
00:09:21 for you to proactively get in touch with nicholas holgate had the britisher across by that stage in the morning of the thursday the 15th of june formed a view or had any concerns on how the local authority were leading the
00:09:32 the local authority were leading the provision of emergency relief i think by the thursday morning the
00:09:39 the scale and complexity of the emergency was starting to become clearer both because the death toll was becoming clearer and the number of people being evacuated from the grenfell tower and
00:09:53 evacuated from the grenfell tower and indeed surrounding uh streets was becoming clearer and therefore that this was not a
00:09:59 was not a typical emergency and therefore we um it would it is unusual for me to getting be proactive and getting in touch with the chief executive of a local authority in an emergency and if i think this is the
00:10:11 emergency and if i think this is the only time i've actually ever ever done it directly at that stage of an emergency to say is there any more that we can do to help and you took that unusual step because
00:10:22 and you took that unusual step because you considered the complexity of the incident was such that there was a need for
00:10:27 for offering more support the combination of the messages from our team on the ground um
00:10:35 um around what was happening and also the and the the chaotic nature of the situation of
00:10:45 of large emergencies are often chaotic that doesn't mean that the
00:10:51 the leading authority is failing necessarily it just means it is chaotic because that's it a lot of people are affected in a lot of very profound ways um and our aim at that stage was to say this is
00:11:02 our aim at that stage was to say this is this is big and we want to offer offer as much help as we possibly can well perhaps we could go to paragraph 58 where you touch upon this
00:11:13 and i'll i'll read the first part of the paragraph in the hours immediately following the greenville fire it became increasingly clear to british red cross and others that rbkc was struggling in its efforts to organize the response to the fire
00:11:25 the fire and then if i move on the wider needs of those affected were also becoming more apparent but with it also the capacity of the rbk response as it was being run to coordinate how those things were met
00:11:38 to coordinate how those things were met then if we could move on to paragraph 60 which you can see on the same page
00:11:45 a second sentence it was becoming clear that the or bkc response as it was was not doing that to the extent that it needed to do so in other words provide humanitarian assistance is that correct yes
00:11:59 so that was the environment where you decided that it was it was necessary to make a call to nicholas whole case and let's perhaps we can move on to that call
00:12:08 call um you mentioned at paragraph 66 we don't need to turn to it that you first tried to call him but he wasn't available to take your call but in fairness he returned your call very very quickly thereafter yes
00:12:21 quickly thereafter yes and then if we turn to paragraph 67 please
00:12:26 you say this on the phone call i made a number of offers mr holget of ways in which the british red cross could further assist rbkc's response to grenville fire these included providing practical and
00:12:37 these included providing practical and emotional support access to large tents to use outside of the westwards reception areas assistance with cash distribution in the form of small amounts of money to be given to those
00:12:48 amounts of money to be given to those who have been affected to buy food and other items and help with coordinating the fundraising efforts
00:12:57 and what was mr holgate's response with regards to the offers you made
00:13:04 it was a relatively short conversation um in which he expressed gratitude for the support that we had already given in mobilizing support and assistance for
00:13:16 in mobilizing support and assistance for the rest center and um
00:13:22 and his assessment at that time was that um the only additional support that they would
00:13:30 would would welcome was the support with the organizing and fundraising appeal for for those affected and in relation to one of the purposes of your call was to get an update on the
00:13:41 of your call was to get an update on the relief effort did he provide you with any updates as to what was going in terms of the relief effort what was occurring
00:13:49 occurring i don't recall there being any detail to that
00:13:52 that and how did the conversation end after he
00:13:56 he and was polite regarding your offers but for the majority of them didn't take them up uh i confirmed the offer it was an open offer for that kind of the assistance i'd made
00:14:08 assistance i'd made directly
00:14:09 directly directly offered and indeed anything else
00:14:12 else other areas where we might be able to help or to commission help with others um and he thanked me for that and um yeah we
00:14:21 yeah we the the phone call concluded can i just ask you this um this was all going on on the morning of the 15th correct you already had some people involved in
00:14:32 you already had some people involved in the
00:14:33 the uh
00:14:34 uh response to the disaster is that right yes
00:14:37 yes and really this was a case of saying there's more we or there may be more we can do
00:14:43 can do would you like us to help yes yeah all right thank you very much
00:14:49 would you expect it mr holgate are a chief executive in that situation to take you up on your offer of assistance well that all depends
00:15:01 well that all depends on the extent to which he feels
00:15:05 he feels he felt he was on top of the situation and that it wasn't at that stage for me to judge the relationship between the inevitably kind of chaotic and quite
00:15:16 the inevitably kind of chaotic and quite complex nature of the situation and then the capability formally of you know of kensington chelsea to to handle that so i took his response at face value at
00:15:28 so i took his response at face value at that stage uh but he ensured that he knew that the offer was open and indeed that we would then be you know continuing our support and on the ground in order to attempt to
00:15:39 and on the ground in order to attempt to continue to provide the right kind of assistance so your ongoing support was was was constant and that open offer for additional support remains was there any further
00:15:51 support remains was there any further contact with mr holgate or anyone else from all bkc in those following days there's no direct contact with me in those following days with kensington and chelsea
00:16:01 chelsea but obviously the team on the ground we're working with colleagues from kensington chelsea all the time but it wasn't the case that there was a further request to the senior leadership team at british
00:16:13 the senior leadership team at british red cross for greater assistance from the british red cross yeah if i could move on to the second of our three areas which is your involvement in what became known as
00:16:24 your involvement in what became known as the grenville fire response team so in terms of the chronology it's friday the 16th of june and is it correct that you learn that john baradel who's the town clark
00:16:35 who's the town clark and chief executive of the corporation of london city of london had been tasks to lead japan london response that is correct
00:16:43 correct and the term has been used as a grenfell fire response team and that was to describe
00:16:48 describe the sort of multi-disciplinary team the british red cross and governmental agents and local authorities is that correct that's correct
00:16:59 and we know from your statement of paragraph 74 that you spoke with him on the friday evening john baradel and he invited you to attend meetings at their offices over the weekend is that correct yes it is
00:17:10 yes it is and it's right that you attended their offices
00:17:13 offices over the weekend staying to 10 o'clock each evening that's correct that weekend yes the 17th of 18th of june
00:17:23 perhaps we're going to open up paragraph 76 please of your statement
00:17:33 and i'm just going to paragraph 76 three lines from the bottom in relation to what was asked off you he confirmed that they were seeking support from us with the gfrt's
00:17:47 support from us with the gfrt's communication strategy as well as the ongoing support in the rest center at the west way and the establishment of a support line is that correct yes so three areas one communication strategy to support an
00:18:00 one communication strategy to support an arrest center and three the establishment of a support line at that time at that time
00:18:07 and in relation to the first of those three areas what did you understand british red cross were being asked to do to assist in terms of communication strategy
00:18:17 strategy well because uh gfrt had mobilized literally overnight and into a weekend um
00:18:25 um the
00:18:26 the the
00:18:27 the i think they simply didn't have the communications capacity so in fact there were red cross people from the red cross communications team uh were also in the um
00:18:38 uh were also in the um gold command in the gfrt offices yes providing support and working with the people who were there to try to frame communications to use social media to
00:18:50 to use social media to share information and my understanding is that they would welcome that support in practice i think they used that support for a short period of time into the early part of the next week and then mobilized
00:19:02 the next week and then mobilized capacity from the local authorities across london thank you we perhaps deal with the support line here by way of completeness and
00:19:12 and we have emin sprague's written evidence and it appears on the 15th of june she received confirmation that the brc should use a helpline which had already been in place
00:19:23 been in place since the manchester arena incidents
00:19:28 incidents and that was that existing helpline was there to assist grenville survivors and people affected by the fire and it appears this hopefully assists with your recollection that
00:19:39 with your recollection that the support line was established and operating from the 16th of june does that sound about right it sounds about right but i wasn't close to that decision-making no i just want to deal with any
00:19:51 i just want to deal with any initial issues which um you observed with the grenville fire response team and we can see it in front of us at paragraph
00:20:00 paragraph 76
00:20:01 76 the paragraph we were just looking at at the top he said i found the position at gfrt over that weekend still to be somewhat confused and it was difficult for me to form an objective analysis of
00:20:13 for me to form an objective analysis of the situation paul's in there for a moment i wonder if you could go to paragraph 123 please which is
00:20:21 which is another
00:20:23 another observation you've make on similar lines
00:20:32 thank you my experience of assisting with the gfrt response
00:20:37 response on the weekend of 1788 in june was that it remained chaotic right up until the sunday evening so it's two phrases we we we've touched upon in those two paragraphs
00:20:48 upon in those two paragraphs one of them was it was somewhat confused and the other one was chaotic which we've just seen at paragraph one two three
00:20:56 three and can you assist us in what way did you consider that the gf the grenfell fire response team response over that weekend was somewhat confused or chaotic i think the situation was
00:21:07 i think the situation was confusing chaotic because um gfrt were themselves mobilizing from a standing start um you know with no no capacity in place
00:21:19 you know with no no capacity in place to
00:21:20 to um to mobilize and um and also then inheriting information that was very partial from kensington and chelsea so
00:21:31 so so that's an observation of facts as much as anything that they were trying to make sense of a situation that was quite complex and chaotic and pull the threads together
00:21:42 chaotic and pull the threads together into a a plan for how assistance should be provided in the days to follow can you just tell us um how were you following this were you
00:21:55 how were you following this were you in a sense in telephone communication with the uh the response team or where you
00:22:02 where you as well located with them so that you could see what was going on and how did it work i was um the grenfell fire response team established new office
00:22:14 established new office premises in westminster uh from the friday evening from which they then operated in the weeks to follow and i went to those offices uh from saturday
00:22:25 went to those offices uh from saturday late morning until late saturday evening and then same on sunday from in the morning through to sunday evening so i was i was there um
00:22:35 um seeing the operation and i had also been to
00:22:38 to see the operation in the around the west way um
00:22:43 um around the around the tower itself on the friday to try and you know to get a picture of what was happening so i was i felt that i was so these comments are made on the base of what i was observing hour by hour so in effect
00:22:55 was observing hour by hour so in effect you were integrated with the team that was running the operation yes
00:23:01 yes yeah
00:23:01 yeah so thank you very much so we're just going to explore that integration and build upon your direct observations over that weekend perhaps you could look at paragraph one two four please
00:23:14 so you're expressing how you were at the scene and at the same time at the scene in other words at the offices i was attempting to engage with those in comparable senior leadership positions heading the
00:23:26 leadership positions heading the response so that we would be able with the benefit of our mutual professional experience and capabilities to sit down and diagnose the issues with response i.e to consider what had been missing from the inherited
00:23:37 what had been missing from the inherited or bkc response so we could determine where
00:23:40 where the gf ort response needed to focus its efforts but i found it initially difficult to engage with those
00:23:49 those individuals
00:23:54 why was it difficult to engage with those individuals over that weekend would you mind if we scrolled through the rest of paragraph 124 of course would you like me to read the rest of it
00:24:05 would you like me to read the rest of it or would you like to go over leaf i just go over leafs i can just yes
00:24:12 so as the i think paragraph 124 tries to get out there was a
00:24:19 sense of real urgency in understanding the immediate needs of the people directly impacted by the uh by the fire um and particularly those who were
00:24:30 um and particularly those who were bereaved and had to be evacuated from the tower itself and grenfell walk and
00:24:39 and that perhaps understandably was the an absolute priority and because gfrt itself was mobilizing from a standing start a lot of quite senior people getting quite involved in that direct
00:24:50 getting quite involved in that direct planning of trying to understand that situation
00:24:53 situation and
00:24:55 and while work was done over that weekend on um
00:25:00 on um you know the way forwards which i'm sure we'll come to in in the resulting statement um it then made it difficult just to sit down and have a
00:25:12 down and have a consider you know consideration as partners about well what's the medium-term way forwards so those strategic leaders on your account were very much involved in some organizational matters on that
00:25:24 in some organizational matters on that on that
00:25:26 on that some very operational yes they were very involved in some very very operational matters yes
00:25:32 and and you in fairness to balance your comments which i was going to move to you you say there is a difficult balance to be struck between a strategic needs assessment and planning on one hand and the immediate action and communication
00:25:45 the immediate action and communication of the position on the other correct yes and you say more emphasis on the former might have paid dividends in the long run
00:25:54 run yes
00:25:55 yes but it's a difficult balance to strike in the moment correct
00:26:01 as you anticipate i was going to move on to the press statement and we'll do that in a moment but we know over that weekend that you were asked to issue a joint press statement
00:26:12 asked to issue a joint press statement on behalf of the british red cross with the grenfell fire response team that's mentioned at paragraph 25 that's right in front of us and you say this i was only willing
00:26:25 and you say this i was only willing to do so once i was clear on how the needs that affected individuals were going to be met by the granville fire response team and by the evening of sunday 18 of june i'd formed a view that there was indeed
00:26:37 i'd formed a view that there was indeed some sense of coherence emerging and the right people were becoming involved so i felt able to make that statement
00:26:45 statement is that correct that was correct and is there anything else you wanted to add to that
00:26:49 that i felt that you know senior london
00:26:54 london senior leaders from across london were um
00:26:58 um coming together to try to make sense of the situation and set some kind of plan in place
00:27:03 in place and um
00:27:05 and um you know
00:27:07 you know on saturday i felt that that wasn't clear enough for the red cross to be putting its name or being a partner in that visibly um by the sunday evening but it was literally hour by hour as things became
00:27:19 literally hour by hour as things became clearer i felt that the um you know there was some greater coherence to our intentions and it was also very important that we did communicate what our intentions were
00:27:31 communicate what our intentions were because
00:27:32 because people need to know in terms of um both the local community and more widely there's a lot of stakeholders and the red cross in its auxiliary role uh
00:27:41 uh you know one needs to be part of that and just to help perhaps us all to visualize
00:27:48 visualize the effort and resources which were being mobilized over that weekend how would you describe it from your position
00:27:57 position embedded within the offices that weekend
00:28:03 um [Music]
00:28:05 [Music] i would i would describe it as earnest
00:28:09 earnest uh
00:28:10 uh busy
00:28:11 busy um
00:28:14 um trying to make sense of complexity and
00:28:19 and but a sense of um
00:28:23 that there's a very important there's a very important work to do
00:28:29 let's turn to the press statement which we refer to it's at lfb triple zero six one two five eight please
00:28:39 and it's the press statement is an email of the press statement it's from john herrington we see at the top 18th of june so the sunday at 21 49
00:28:51 18th of june so the sunday at 21 49 so late in the evening and sent to all the chief executives and if you scroll down thank you it's it says please see the press
00:29:02 it's it says please see the press statement made today by the grenville fire response team
00:29:07 below statement by eleanor kelly the chief executive city council on behalf of the newly established grenville fire resp response team which includes london-wide local and regional
00:29:18 london-wide local and regional government central government british red cross metropolitan police and london fire brigade does that capture what the gfrt was
00:29:28 at that stage yes
00:29:32 this is the first time that we've seen this document join inquiry so i'm just going to read the first paragraph
00:29:39 paragraph we want to make clear that whilst emergency and local community response was nothing short of heroic we know that initial response was simply not good enough on the ground people are angry and rightfully so
00:29:52 angry and rightfully so our focus is now ensuring those affected are being cared for and looked after you're familiar with this press statement because one one assumes that you had some input or you were consulted on its contents is that correct that's
00:30:04 on its contents is that correct that's correct
00:30:05 correct if we go down to the next page please and i just want to focus upon the role of the british red cross as set out in this document we see paragraph three and i'm going to invite us to go to
00:30:16 invite us to go to a little bit further down the document where it says i'm pleased i'm pleased that british red cross here to help coordinate and provide assistance where it's needed red cross personnel and volunteers have
00:30:28 red cross personnel and volunteers have been on site 24 hours a day since early wednesday
00:30:31 wednesday is that correct uh yes
00:30:34 uh yes this has so far involved a team of more than 66 volunteers alongside trained psychosocial support specialists from today the red cross will help support a more dedicated community assistance center at the westway center
00:30:47 assistance center at the westway center and will be part of teams allocated to every household affected today they are doing outreach work to find people who need help and we've also asked them to be at airports to meet grieving relatives as they arrive
00:30:59 grieving relatives as they arrive they can also help distribute donations that are poured in from the public and then it sets out a red cross helpline as an action to help give practical or emotional support to anyone who needs it
00:31:11 emotional support to anyone who needs it and capacity of this has been expanded to give people a central point of contact
00:31:16 contact did that reflect the role at that stage what was envisaged for the british red cross uh yes from from from my memory that would be an accurate statement
00:31:27 would be an accurate statement [Applause] perhaps one matter of clarification was that
00:31:34 that where it refers to will be part of the teams allocated to every household affected
00:31:39 affected that sounds like a key worker role was it the case the british red cross were involved in key worker roles i
00:31:49 i you know in my role i wasn't directly involved in that but the intention was to match up the intention was that the presence of the red cross is not only important in
00:32:00 the red cross is not only important in terms of capability to provide you know
00:32:04 you know assistance but also to um that
00:32:08 that the to show a more human-centered approach so it wasn't simply about government response this was about
00:32:16 volunteers and you know people with experience of responding in emergencies both in the uk and around the world you know being available
00:32:24 available and um
00:32:27 and um i um i'm all you know aware that we were supporting the teams allocated to just to to work with the people affected i can't comment on whether we were part of every team but there was certainly a key
00:32:38 every team but there was certainly a key work of philosophy uh behind it um and and we were very we were part of that okay
00:32:45 okay i want to move on to it another section which is labeled principal issues you raise a number of issues regarding what you observed in those days and i just want to draw out some of
00:32:57 and i just want to draw out some of those
00:32:57 those with you and to assist you because it's a very again detailed helpful comprehensive statement one of the issues you raised was the accessibility of the west way and i want
00:33:08 accessibility of the west way and i want to ask you some questions about the west way
00:33:12 way as you mentioned to one of the chairman's questions you you actually were you did attend the west where is that correct that's correct and your evidence was that you your first visit
00:33:23 evidence was that you your first visit was on the morning of friday the 16th of june and you attended a scene on a number of occasions thereafter is that correct that is correct and if we have a look at your statements
00:33:34 and if we have a look at your statements again at paragraph 94 please which hopefully might assist us all and your recollection
00:33:47 and i've summarized the first part there perhaps we could focus on the last three lines where it says attending the scene of the fire allowed me to take a view on what
00:33:58 allowed me to take a view on what aspects of this response were working well
00:34:00 well both from a gfrt and british red cross specific perspective and also and perhaps more even more importantly what was working less well
00:34:11 importantly what was working less well how would you describe the scene on the 16th of june the friday when you attended the westway
00:34:21 well it's important to look at the scene in the west way in the context of what's happening in the surrounding community as well
00:34:26 as well and um it is it was very
00:34:31 very incredibly busy chaotic uh there was a lot of visible anger uh from people a lot of people with microphones and um you know
00:34:42 um you know talking to people and um huge numbers of people collecting boxes of clothes and unpacking boxes packing boxes it's a very chaotic
00:34:53 boxes it's a very chaotic environment not again not unusual in a significant emergency and then at the west way itself there was
00:35:04 there was it was
00:35:06 it was at a stage when there were still people in the west way who had been evacuated from the tower or grenfell walk who were being accommodated there including people who
00:35:17 accommodated there including people who you know had tragically lost loved ones so it was a incredibly um it was a kind of frenetic setting with a lot of people milling around a
00:35:28 with a lot of people milling around a lot of press interest as well and then people who were also as i say who were themselves bereaved um tragically and so it was a very difficult very difficult
00:35:40 it was a very difficult very difficult environment when you use the word chaotic it conjures up in my mind at least a sense of
00:35:47 of an absence of direction or organization not not simply a lot of activity but a lot of rather disorganized activity is that what you
00:35:58 disorganized activity is that what you mean
00:35:59 mean well i think in this in the surrounding community
00:36:02 community it felt um there was a lot of anger and that was just that was being expressed um both viscerally by individuals and groups and in that sense that created a sense
00:36:14 and in that sense that created a sense of
00:36:15 of there wasn't a great sense of order about it it was um
00:36:20 um it didn't feel threatening at all but it felt just you know there's a lot of emotion around
00:36:27 around um and then in
00:36:30 in the west way itself um
00:36:33 um it
00:36:34 it was
00:36:36 was you know there were what again what happens in all emergencies now happened here is the surge in donated goods um a lot of people
00:36:45 people try to help a lot of you know say press interest um
00:36:50 um the area where people the people who were
00:36:54 were who had been evacuated from the tower and the surrounding walkway were in an area that was kept separate but it wasn't suitable for long-term you know
00:37:05 wasn't suitable for long-term you know for
00:37:06 for accommodation for people who are in who experienced that trauma um it was a big you know
00:37:12 you know gym um and that's not clearly not the right environment for people um
00:37:17 um but they those people they weren't it's not that everyone was milling around that area where bereaved people or people have been evacuated were there but just upstairs there was a lot of people milling around
00:37:30 people milling around and we're still we're still very much in the phase of trying to help get the whole you know this in that transition from the immediate the immediate refuge as it were where people went into the
00:37:43 were where people went into the community assistance center model which is what then emerged over the weekend that that transition was happening in real time
00:37:52 so
00:37:54 it was incredibly busy and lots of people
00:38:02 and wasn't it was
00:38:06 it was but i think it was yet it would be true to say it was we were yet to see a really ordered approach to to the situation yeah thank you that's that's helpful
00:38:17 thank you that's that's helpful your organization and use chief executive have huge experience in dealing with emergencies both domestically and internationally is that fair
00:38:27 fair yes yes
00:38:28 yes yes and in relation to your expertise in your expectation coming down on the third day after a serious emergency like the fire of experienced
00:38:40 experienced would you have expected to be greeted with a scene that you were met with no i would have expected more order to be being established by then
00:38:52 what would you have expected more order but what let's what what should have happened in your view by the third day well i think by the third day you would hope that all the people who
00:39:03 you would hope that all the people who have had to be evacuated from the tower itself and people have been bereaved would have been found more suitable
00:39:11 suitable accommodation um and that the rest center itself would be
00:39:25 but perhaps more ordered but you also have to bear in mind that the whole community
00:39:29 community was
00:39:30 was and and
00:39:31 and and lots of people beyond that community were
00:39:39 wanted to express you know support empathy solidarity and or the ripple effects of the trauma from the fire itself you know when if much further all those who could see the
00:39:51 further all those who could see the tower which went you know for miles around yes it could be affected by it so you're bound to have a lot of people milling around um and um
00:40:02 and some of the challenges around the therefore
00:40:08 therefore they attempt to put order around it in terms of you know managing access into the building um was important and that was uh you know attempt to do that in order to protect
00:40:19 attempt to do that in order to protect the people who were still there um so i think you might expect to see a bit more order but it's also not unusual in an emergency for that to take a few days to materialize
00:40:31 to materialize we're dealing with them sorry i'm sorry to keep in front of you um
00:40:35 um when you first visited the west way um
00:40:40 um did you were you able to identify someone who was at least nominally in charge and giving directions or was there no one holding that role
00:40:51 holding that role i don't recall meeting anyone who held that role did you seek to find out who might be in that role i i'll be honestly i cannot recall but i
00:41:04 i'll be honestly i cannot recall but i can't imagine that i wouldn't have done quite that's what i thought you know
00:41:09 you know anyway you can't now remember identifying someone who was clearly in charge
00:41:14 charge yeah
00:41:15 yeah thank you
00:41:17 thank you did you consider from what you observed and what was being fed back to you on the 16th of june and thereafter that there was a reluctance by those who had been impacted by the fire
00:41:29 those who had been impacted by the fire accessing the westway rest center
00:41:34 i i don't think i was aware of that specifically on the 16th thereafter did you become aware of any issue in relation to that i did become aware of that because some
00:41:46 i did become aware of that because some of that was what started to be fed back um
00:41:51 um over the weekend
00:41:54 from some of our teams or people that were visiting the site and
00:42:00 and that that information started to come through
00:42:04 so in other words it was something which there was an awareness that there was um a lack of access or people feeling comfortable about
00:42:15 comfortable about accessing the west way there was a concern beginning to be expressed
00:42:19 expressed over the weekend that um
00:42:24 that the westway operation itself was not sufficiently connected into the wider community thank you
00:42:41 i just want to turn to paragraph 101 please we're dealing with this topic of
00:42:48 topic of um
00:42:50 um you can see it perhaps paragraph 100 first if you just scroll up slightly you mentioned that in addition the westeros situated by a police cordon which is intended to keep people safe and the large media presence which
00:43:01 and the large media presence which you've referred to at bay and a number of those who are uncomfortable police and local authorities do not wish to cross to cordon to access the west way instead choosing to rely on pop-up
00:43:12 instead choosing to rely on pop-up centers that have been set up by churches mosques community organizations and charities in the local community the diversity and support from such a large cross-section of local community
00:43:23 large cross-section of local community was remarkable but to a certain extent uncoordinated it was not easy to work out who had been affected particularly in absence of an efficient and comprehensive registration
00:43:34 efficient and comprehensive registration process
00:43:36 process and those who were just there to help and then you move on to paragraph 101 to say this
00:43:44 say this three lines down first both the british red cross and those in chartered response whether or bkc or the grenfell fire response team should have realized at an earlier point as some of those affected were not
00:43:55 as some of those affected were not accessing the west way because it did not feel comfortable there although we sent community outreach outreach teams from the week commencing the 19th of june out on the streets and
00:44:06 the 19th of june out on the streets and to locations where people were congregating with hindsight it would have been better to have done this sooner see how we could help and what was needed we could then have made early decisions about how to best use our resources
00:44:19 about how to best use our resources is that a fair summary of what you were just saying about the west way not being really embedded or integrated with the wider community yes it is
00:44:29 yes it is and you say it's in hindsight that's something that both or bkc and the response team should have realized at an earlier point
00:44:37 point yes
00:44:39 yes how would they realize at an earlier point how would somebody be aware of this
00:44:44 this well i think well
00:44:46 well as the red cross we would have much more this is where the you asked me earlier about the auxiliary role yes and the and we touched on the
00:44:57 and we touched on the um
00:44:59 um it does the auxiliary role simply mean that we
00:45:02 that we respond to the request from the local authority
00:45:05 authority um which is what we and which is what we typically do in most emergencies um or do we additionally do needs assessments of our own and build connections with local communities and
00:45:17 connections with local communities and the organizations operating within them we would now have a much broader interpretation of our role which would continue to be to partner with the local authority of course but to
00:45:29 the local authority of course but to make
00:45:30 make far more effort ourselves um to build the relationship with the local community and the other organizations active within it and if had we done that then we might
00:45:41 and if had we done that then we might would have been feeding back information sooner to the local authority about the need to take to have a more holistic view
00:45:50 view of the overall needs and the overall response and the incredible role being played by some of these other local organizations so greater partnership or at least engagement with those
00:46:01 or at least engagement with those local community faith and voluntary organizations absolutely i want to move on to a second issue which is registration and data sharing which we've heard
00:46:14 data sharing which we've heard um
00:46:15 um a number of aspects of evidence in relation to that um if we could go to paragraph 68 please of your statement it's something you mention
00:46:26 it's something you mention and place significant weight on in your evidence written evidence is the topic of registration that's what i want to explore with you as well please
00:46:37 explore with you as well please we've touched on this paragraph already please the right paragraph
00:46:44 yes it's five lines down which we may have read already but you say
00:46:49 say this was in large part because for the first few days following the greenville fire there had been no effective registration by or bkc if anyone had been affected with the process only taken close to one week to be currently organized
00:47:02 week to be currently organized whilst the situation was undoubtedly difficult and confusing the importance of this between these different statutory actors was not recognized sufficiently early
00:47:13 early so it's a topic which you've touched upon a number of times and we may have touched upon this paragraph but i wanted to emphasize this and get your assistance in relation to the last line that the importance of this between the
00:47:25 that the importance of this between the different statutory actors was not recognized sufficiently early what did you mean by that
00:47:33 well the first step in almost any emergency response is really to understand the need and then to capture the information about the people who are most affected
00:47:45 about the people who are most affected so that you can understand with them what their needs are and then plan the support that you'll mobilize for them either as individually or as a group
00:47:56 group and
00:47:59 clearly in the case of something like cash distribution if you haven't registered someone you don't have the information about who they are
00:48:09 they are to give them the cash either you know particularly if you're going to do it electronically yes and nor can you ensure that the people who most need kept cash
00:48:18 kept cash get it
00:48:20 get it because you to make sure you don't miss anyone
00:48:23 anyone and then you also make sure that you don't have multiple organizations giving the same person cash so registration a registration process is very important about establishing
00:48:35 very important about establishing that needs assessment and then registration processes are very important in establishing as the first steps in in response to emergency so you can plan what support to give both individually and then
00:48:46 individually and then sometimes collectively and when you say the different statutory actors who do you mean specifically
00:48:53 um well i mean the uh local authority i mean the uh kensington and chelsea yes and then um i think
00:49:03 i think in over the weekend in the um [Music]
00:49:07 [Music] gold command the gfrt was then working very hard to try to establish who had been affected and secure to have the right list of names
00:49:18 the right list of names of
00:49:19 of who who lived in the tower um who had been who had died who was bereaved who had been evacuated
00:49:30 who was bereaved who had been evacuated and to work that through that would be the starting point for
00:49:34 for being able to tailor a response to the individuals affected i want to deal with the responsibility for registration as a subheading and in your view who was responsible for
00:49:45 and in your view who was responsible for the initial registration of those affected by the grenfell tower fire at the west way i think that that has to be the local authority
00:49:57 that has to be the local authority have the responsible registration not least because they have the information about who lived in the tower um which was the starting point and indeed in grenfell walks so we've heard already in terms of a
00:50:10 so we've heard already in terms of a rest center the responsibility for setting up a rest center is the local authority's responsibility that's material we've heard already we've also heard from david curry who is a member from obkcc who mentioned that
00:50:23 a member from obkcc who mentioned that part of their agreement with the british red cross
00:50:27 red cross was that they would attend the restaurant center and deal with the registration i just want to just tease that out a little bit more so we have the local authority on what and a very
00:50:38 the local authority on what and a very simplistic interpretation saying well the british red cross are responsible for it
00:50:43 for it we have a memorandum of understanding which says that the british red cross will attend and bring registration forms but the ultimate responsibility in terms of registration who do you consider that
00:50:55 of registration who do you consider that responsibility is well the first thing i would say is there's a distinction between the registration of the people directly affected by the fire
00:51:07 directly affected by the fire those who
00:51:08 those who as
00:51:09 as were
00:51:10 were those who died those who were breathed those who were evacuated um and that is the first and most important task um and it is the
00:51:23 um and it is the the only the only seems to be the only authority the only organization that can do that is the local authority um they can commission assistance with that
00:51:32 that um
00:51:32 um uh
00:51:33 uh but that it has to start there um there was then the issue of registration at the um west way
00:51:44 registration at the um west way where
00:51:46 where we in normal i can't speak for the specifics of this mou but normally what would happen is that the local authority would have the responsibility for the
00:51:57 would have the responsibility for the registration and then commission help from the red cross or indeed anyone else to enable that to happen but
00:52:06 but your evidence is it that it's the local authority responsible and it may be that the british red cross would assist in that but the responsibility remains with the local authority would that be a fair
00:52:18 the local authority would that be a fair summary of the position yes
00:52:27 in terms of the length of time it took to get the registration process to use your words at paragraph 68 more coherently organized it took a week
00:52:38 it took a week would you
00:52:40 would you was that just an unavoidable situation or was it um in other words was it was it something which was a feature if it's been an unprecedented incident or was it something which should have been done
00:52:52 something which should have been done sooner
00:52:55 it it should have been done sooner um it may be that the information might have been partial to start with but it could have been built up as the information became clearer
00:53:08 however different bits of information were held by
00:53:13 by different statutory authorities and that made it for example in terms of our ability to then distribute the cash that we had which we found it difficult to establish exactly
00:53:25 found it difficult to establish exactly who we should be trying to reach with that cash because a lot of the information was held by the police for a long period of time um and then and not being
00:53:34 being shared
00:53:35 shared with um
00:53:37 with um as far as i could understand with the grenfell tower fire response team okay
00:53:44 okay okay
00:53:45 okay i'm sorry i couldn't be interrupting you not at all can i ask you this we know that um
00:53:51 that um in the immediate hours
00:53:53 hours following the fire quite a lot of places opened up as rest shelters rest centers were over and they were opened by
00:54:04 were over and they were opened by local people so that probably by the noon of the day of the fire there were half a dozen or even more uh rest centers operating on an informal basis
00:54:17 operating on an informal basis was that uh in your experience unusual to have so many different places operating on a parallel basis it's not unusual in an emergency per se
00:54:30 it's not unusual in an emergency per se so if you look at international emergencies that would happen a lot it's always the community who responds first we've not tended to see that in uk emergencies because they've not been on this scale
00:54:41 this scale and required and created that the the scale size of population affected and the
00:54:49 and the the density of that population meant that a lot of people were affected and um
00:54:55 um and for a long period of time so i've not seen it in a uk context before but it was a very striking feature of this emergency but it does have implications doesn't it for there for the
00:55:06 the handling of the response because
00:55:10 because it's one thing to register people at one location
00:55:14 location it's another thing to register people who've gone to half a dozen different locations and to combine the information and to make sure you haven't got people on twice or missed people out
00:55:25 on twice or missed people out that's that's absolutely correct and the um and was one of the features of this emergency and made registration it didn't necessarily make the registration of the people direct who'd
00:55:36 registration of the people direct who'd been in the tower difficult because that must have existed on the list but in terms of the people who are affected through some of the ripple effects of the emergency it did make it it did make it difficult and we should
00:55:48 it did make it difficult and we should have been more alert to that in the early days of the
00:55:54 the yeah the response yeah all right thank you
00:55:58 you in terms of the difficulties that the grenfell fire response team had in relation to make a standing start from a standing starter you described it perhaps we could just draw out something you've set out at paragraph 77 please
00:56:12 you've set out at paragraph 77 please and you outline the weekend of the 17th and 18th of june and this is what you observed i recall a number of chief executives sitting down in a room
00:56:22 in a room with their own handwritten tables trying to establish lists that had been affected by the grenfell fire who'd been bereaved who'd be made homeless where people were being housed in temporary accommodation what their needs
00:56:33 temporary accommodation what their needs were and whether and if so how those needs were being met this was not a clear picture and it was therefore not ideal that the process remained ongoing and without a
00:56:45 process remained ongoing and without a clear methodology more than three days after the fire started your ad it would appear that or bkc and not being able to pass such information to grenville fire response team
00:56:57 to grenville fire response team is that accurately describe the position yes it does
00:57:04 in terms of the impact of those deficiencies in the registration process again it's something you spend some time about you've already mentioned that to us today but also in your statement and perhaps i could summarize paragraph 97
00:57:17 perhaps i could summarize paragraph 97 you say neither or bkc nor the gf-40 gf or t knew who had been affected by the fire for too long a period of time then at paragraph 98 you say this
00:57:30 then at paragraph 98 you say this without a coherent registration process it was difficult to identify who had been affected their needs and how best to address those needs it was also sometimes not clear where
00:57:41 it was also sometimes not clear where those who had been affected actually were
00:57:43 were many people were being housed in temporary accommodation but it was sometimes difficult to work out where they were so they could be checked on and offered further support
00:57:54 further support and in relation to that latter part that's those who were placed in hotels there was
00:57:59 there was a concern that they were there wasn't an understanding where they were and how they could be supported is that correct that is correct
00:58:11 i'm going to move on to subsets of this topic of registration which is data data sharing or data protection whichever way you want to to look at it from
00:58:22 from you mentioned about some of the difficulties in getting information from other statutory actors as you described it
00:58:29 it and perhaps we could look at paragraph 97 in relation to this please
00:58:43 the second sentence i believe this issue was further complicated by concerns over data protection issues that had arisen which made it difficult for the police and other agencies to share the information that they did have with the
00:58:55 information that they did have with the grenfell fire response team for fear of breaching the relevant laws or regulations and something which we'll explore in our third section is your view that this
00:59:08 third section is your view that this should be improved for the future is that correct yes
00:59:12 yes going back into that those experiences in june 2017 and efforts to address that at that time
00:59:23 address that at that time were there any steps taken to address the data protection issues at that time to try to get more information shared we
00:59:34 we i'm in terms of what others did i'm not sure what what i was for us it really mattered because we wanted to be able to mobilize financial support to those people
00:59:45 financial support to those people directly affected and if we didn't have the list of names and contact details we couldn't do that and so
00:59:53 and so i was
00:59:54 i was you know pressing my team for information about well who are they who are the decision makers on this um
01:00:04 um and i understood the information to be being held by the uh police you know um we
01:00:10 we to and trying to secure the name of the lead police liaison liaison officer or family liaison officer who might be able to help us to resolve the issue um
01:00:20 um and
01:00:21 and it it just took a long time
01:00:26 it's probably very hard to put a figure on that but can you assist in relation to how long it took for you to be confident that you had the sufficient information you required
01:00:38 well i i can't recall but i would think it was over a week before we started to get that information from memory and again from your wider experience
01:00:50 and again from your wider experience domestically is that unusual or is that one of the features even now of multi-agency work well data sharing is always
01:01:03 well data sharing is always an issue
01:01:04 an issue and as i'm sure we'll come on to discuss i think that the burden of proof should be to show why you wouldn't share information rather than the other way around
01:01:15 let's perhaps explore those matters now if we can discreetly and
01:01:21 and perhaps starting from the civil contingency act perspective was there in your view an awareness of the cca regulations which provides that
01:01:32 the cca regulations which provides that category one or two responders may disclose information on requests in connection with the performance of their functions in emergencies specifically regulations 45-54
01:01:45 regulations 45-54 was there an understanding amongst those status reactors of
01:01:51 of that power uh
01:01:53 uh specifically in this context i don't know
01:02:00 in terms of you describe this as uh it's all data sharing is always an issue and what in what ways do you consider that the registration and perhaps more more importantly the data
01:02:12 perhaps more more importantly the data sharing process could be improved for the future
01:02:18 i think if there was a clearer understanding of why registration and then the sharing of that information with other partners is
01:02:29 that information with other partners is so important to be able to provide assistance then
01:02:37 those people in those statutory organizations would their bias would be to share the information in the first place because of the help that it would enable
01:02:45 enable and that requires some peripheral vision of
01:02:49 of what
01:02:51 what is
01:02:51 is you know what what which what what each actor is part of um and i can't i'm not a lawyer i can't comment on the specifics of the data protection legislation what was
01:03:02 data protection legislation what was possible at that time i wouldn't do what's possible now but i think that all actors should be trying to share that information
01:03:13 information in order to enable assistance to be provided while paying due attention to the confidentiality of the information overall with the wider a wider community let's draw out paragraph 117 where
01:03:24 let's draw out paragraph 117 where you've discussed this in your statement
01:03:30 and you say this a further area in which the response could have been assisted was for greater clarity to have been given by the government in relation to the exchange of personal data in relation to affected
01:03:41 of personal data in relation to affected individuals it was apparent to me that either data protection laws or the perception of the requirements of such laws inhibited the efficient exchange of personal data to
01:03:52 efficient exchange of personal data to support the registration process and enable humanitarian support
01:04:01 we know that in relation to the work of the british red cross that there was a number of reports which were commissioned and published in the wake of grenville tower
01:04:12 of grenville tower and other
01:04:14 and other emergencies and tragedies which took place in 2017 is that right yes and in relation to one of those and perhaps we could open up the documents inq triple zero one five zero nine three
01:04:28 inq triple zero one five zero nine three we can see one of the the latter documents which was dated november 2019 and it's called people power in emergencies
01:04:39 emergencies and it's an assessment of volunteering community sector engagement and human-centered approaches to emergency planning
01:04:45 planning we're going to return to this a little bit later but if we could go to page 20 of the document please
01:04:57 and at the bottom left of the screen thank you very much it says this this is a report which was you have seen and commissioned isn't
01:05:08 you have seen and commissioned isn't that correct that is correct and the british red cross recommends that data sharing code of practice of the information commissioner's office and the cabinet office's data protection
01:05:19 and the cabinet office's data protection and sharing guidance for emergency planners and responders endorse statutory authorities working with voluntary sector organizations to build more constructive working relationships and agree new clear
01:05:32 relationships and agree new clear protocols for effective information sharing
01:05:35 sharing something in a public sphere is something that the british red cross have raised isn't that correct that is correct
01:05:41 correct and just perhaps to bring this up to date in relation to the first part which is the data sharing code of practice of the ico
01:05:54 code of practice of the ico are you aware that since this report which is november 2019 and the information commissioner's office have published an update to its data sharing code of practice
01:06:06 to its data sharing code of practice which is published in december 2020 and has come into force in october 2021 were you aware of that i wasn't personally aware
01:06:17 i wasn't personally aware i'm not going to ask you any more in relation to that if you're not aware aware of that that's come into the force but to an extent one of the matters that you recommended has been addressed
01:06:28 you recommended has been addressed which is the data sharing code one that's one factor the second factor you your organization have recommended related to cabinet office data protection and sharing guidance
01:06:40 protection and sharing guidance for emergency planners and responders now in relation to that this there is
01:06:46 there is it appears to be non-statutory guidance issued by the capital office and the current version appears to be 2007. does that sound about rights to you the document that we're referring to
01:06:57 document that we're referring to i'm not
01:06:58 i'm not sure so it's something which you don't now being put on the spots have a direct recollection as do any changes in relation to that
01:07:10 i'm i'm not familiar with directly familiar with the legal framework of course other than in general terms
01:07:19 but it's the um what is key is that people then are that the actors in an emergency act upon
01:07:30 emergency act upon that guidance in order to share information um and that they know that they can do that
01:07:38 that so one aspect is understanding of the guidance and then it's it's the application of that which requires one would assume better knowledge and training is that correct that's correct
01:07:52 we can put data sharing to one side for a moment
01:07:57 a moment and move on please to one of the third issues which one of the issues you raise which is the third one that i'm drawing out is community engagement and
01:08:08 and the first british red cross report which was commissioned in the advent of these incidents in 2017 was called harnessing the power of kindness
01:08:19 kindness and that was um published in 2018 and perhaps we could have a look at that it's b or c
01:08:26 6 0 66 please
01:08:34 and it says it there it's designed to harness the power of kindness for communities in crisis towards a more effective response to emergencies in the uk
01:08:45 uk and
01:08:47 and but in summary there was significant reflections is this fair to say by the british red cross in the wake of a number of terrorist attacks and the grenville fire grenfell tower of
01:08:59 and the grenville fire grenfell tower of fire of
01:09:01 fire of british red cross and the voluntary sector and how things what lessons could be learned that's correct 2017 was a watershed year for emergencies in the uk and therefore
01:09:13 for emergencies in the uk and therefore for the way all parties i hope think about emergencies and certainly for the british red cross we learned a lot and that we
01:09:23 that we yeah about the way in which we operate yes
01:09:27 yes and really if that watershed is what we're going to explore now in our third real area of it we're going to draw out some of those matters but perhaps we could turn to page six please of this
01:09:38 could turn to page six please of this and looking backwards before we look forwards first of all it says this at the top of the page in the right hand column
01:09:46 column the british red cross has been upfront about where our response did not meet our high standards it's perhaps making a reference to matters you've made in in other media
01:09:57 matters you've made in in other media the grenville tower fire in particular showed that some of our our established ways of working are not responsive enough to local needs and highlighted where we did not communicate effectively
01:10:08 where we did not communicate effectively enough with statutory and other voluntary organized asian organizations is there anything else you wanted to add in relation to that that sort of reflective approach that the british red
01:10:20 reflective approach that the british red cross and that view that arrived that certain things didn't work
01:10:28 we recognized uh particularly through the grenfell tower response
01:10:33 response that um
01:10:36 that um we were not connected soon enough into that network of local organizations um that were also as we discussed earlier opening their doors in the early
01:10:47 earlier opening their doors in the early hours of that wednesday morning and building an effective network of relationships with them in order to understand overall needs and since that time we have done
01:10:58 and since that time we have done a lot to
01:11:00 a lot to correct that both in the way in which we approach our response in an emergency to be
01:11:07 to be needs-based and inclusive but also through the institutional structures that we um have invested in and which we co which we host and co-chair around a
01:11:20 co which we host and co-chair around a national and local partnership of voluntary organizations uh ready to respond in an emergency and recognizing that those small local organizations
01:11:31 organizations are often going to be better informed about a community's needs than we are because they're rooted in it well that may be a helpful way and i'm going to go into those structures probably after the mid-afternoon break
01:11:43 probably after the mid-afternoon break but
01:11:44 but the last observation you made might be a helpful
01:11:47 helpful way to
01:11:48 way to turn to paragraph 144 please you talk about small local organizations and applying us back to um grenville fire
01:12:01 in fact we could turn to paragraph 145 please thank you
01:12:10 and you say this
01:12:16 the question how best to help might have also been better addressed how do we engage more quickly and more directly with the community leaders and this is the part i'm trying to focus upon the vast majority of whom were quietly
01:12:27 the vast majority of whom were quietly and capably offering aid to those in need without much of any input from or bkc or the grenville fire response team and that was your assessment of the impact was it of the the local
01:12:38 impact was it of the the local organizations and the community leaders yes that's not a that's not a formal objective assessment it's a sense of yes the community responding supporting its own
01:12:50 own and really stepping up
01:12:54 is it possible to translate these quite broadly worded [Music]
01:13:02 [Music] aspirations into how they might have been put into practical
01:13:08 practical application in the particular circumstances of the grenfell tower fire yes i think what what do you think should have happened in other words yeah well i think the
01:13:19 in other words yeah well i think the operational leadership um of both the local authority response and indeed um you know the red cross response as well should have realized that
01:13:30 should have realized that actually the whole community has surged uh from the early hours of the morning um
01:13:38 um you know i'll always remember speaking to the leader of one of the local youth organizations who'd opened their doors at three o'clock in the morning and they'd never been involved in an emergency ever before or ever thought of
01:13:51 emergency ever before or ever thought of themselves as an emergency organization and the um uh
01:13:56 uh the realization once you realize that and that
01:14:00 and that actually then the consequences that the leaders the opera the overall coordinators of the response need to be reaching out to those leaders of those other organizations and bringing them together and that could be you know from
01:14:11 together and that could be you know from the mosques or from churches or the youth organizations and then trying to make sense of need together and how do we and what the overall response should be to make it more likely that that ecosystem will address the right things
01:14:24 ecosystem will address the right things while the formal response would still focus on you know the housing issues of those who've been evacuated from the tower so you'd have a mix of the formal and informal but being orchestrated in a
01:14:36 and informal but being orchestrated in a more um in a much more informed way well that i think i understand but i'm just
01:14:42 just wondering
01:14:44 wondering how you would go about identifying the leaders of the community in imagine the first three or four hours perhaps half a dozen hours after the
01:14:54 after the fire
01:14:55 fire i mean would you go to the uh people who were opening the churches or rugby club or yes you would absolutely you'd because this is a very small
01:15:06 you'd because this is a very small geographical area yeah it's probably only a square mile or something like that actually it's all within walking distance this is not it is
01:15:14 it is very doable and reachable and
01:15:18 and it would
01:15:20 it would also
01:15:22 also continue to be complex it wouldn't um but it but you would be building the links with the people who would in the medium term be helping the community recover because they're there before
01:15:33 recover because they're there before during and after and um and they would i'll be helping you inform about what both what people's needs are in general and indeed of some of the people who had not come forward to the west way but act
01:15:45 not come forward to the west way but act because they were fearful of authority for whatever reason but actually might need help and therefore the overall response would be more coherent but yes you would go and you would we would assign people and
01:15:56 you would we would assign people and capacity to go and have those conversations you can say so the your first team on the ground would spread themselves out and go and talk to any um
01:16:07 um informal rest centers or those who are running them or opening them and move on from there is that is that how you see it yes yeah thank you thank you would the application of this principle
01:16:18 would the application of this principle be enhanced if there was better pre-existing relations with some of the local community faith or voluntary organizations
01:16:29 organizations yes i mean the key in an emergency in a way
01:16:33 in a way is to make friends before you need them so
01:16:37 so to to have connected people and organizations up in advance and some of the you know the practical steps we're taking to make that more likely through the institutional arrangements that
01:16:49 the institutional arrangements that we'll talk about later is all about trying to make those connections in advance of an emergency um and the same would then there was a very
01:16:58 very uh
01:16:59 uh you know in the parliament there was a lot of social capital in that community a lot of organizations a lot of very dynamic people and leaders um who um
01:17:09 um who um were
01:17:11 were you know
01:17:11 you know who already knew each other and um
01:17:15 and um and actually could have been harnessed uh more effectively earlier on in the process
01:17:21 process the final topic i just want to deal perhaps with the chairman's leave would be um donations and before we perhaps could have a break um donations physical donations very
01:17:33 donations physical donations very important area we've heard a lot about the the kindness and the outpouring of public generosity and in relation to that did you consider that the volume of
01:17:45 did you consider that the volume of donations physical donations perversely had a adverse impact on the emergency response yes and this is very common in
01:17:57 yes and this is very common in emergencies of a sudden onset nature where people want to show their kindness by giving something the challenge is that that's something that somebody wants to give may not be
01:18:08 that somebody wants to give may not be what the person who's affected by the emergency needs or wants and in the early phase of an emergency people often do prefer to get the physical goods you know because actually if you just had to
01:18:19 because actually if you just had to leave your home you might want to change your clothing you might that might be what you need and you might need clothing there and then but by day three or four you're getting ready you want to choose your own clothes
01:18:30 your own clothes and actually um in this case there were nearly 200 tons of donated goods of varying quality um which were not uh were not what people wanted yes
01:18:42 people wanted yes so in relation to that you mentioned a couple of things which perhaps i could just deal with very briefly you mentioned that the share of volume of the physical donations overwhelmed those in charge of the response at all bkc you said that paragraph 154
01:18:55 bkc you said that paragraph 154 and you add that a lot of time and resource
01:18:58 resource was spent by the british red cross volunteers and others assisting with the response attempting to sort through those donations that's a paragraph 105. is that a fair summary
01:19:10 paragraph 105. is that a fair summary yes it is and in terms of you mentioning your statement at paragraph 153 that there would be limited circumstances probably those early stages where physical donations
01:19:21 early stages where physical donations would assist but you mentioned that with the greatest respect
01:19:26 respect that
01:19:27 that cash is both easier to handle and gives those affected by an emergency choice and dignity about the help that they need is that correct that is correct
01:19:39 need is that correct that is correct and the phrase dignity and choice is is the view that if somebody has the financial support that then they have a degree of control over what they choose to buy and feel that they have got some autonomy over
01:19:52 that they have got some autonomy over their circumstances that's exactly right and if i just gave an example of meeting one of our volunteers who was helping in the west way and she described the situation of a
01:20:03 way and she described the situation of a mother who had been evacuated i think from one of the neighboring streets but who had three disabled children up to the age of 10 all of whom needed
01:20:14 up to the age of 10 all of whom needed nappies
01:20:16 nappies but they you know when you looked at everything that was um in the west way it was only baby's nappies she needed something different yes and we gave her cash she could then go and get what she needed it was all
01:20:28 go and get what she needed it was all available
01:20:29 available um so there's a much better matching process of what people need and their ability to get it if you give them cash particularly after the immediate after the immediate shock or
01:20:41 immediate after the immediate shock or period of the emergency but that's within 24 hours and the final points in relation to this is that in harnessing the power of public kindness reports that one we saw
01:20:52 public kindness reports that one we saw a moment ago in 2018 it recommended that guidance should be issued to inform people early on
01:21:01 early on as to which goods are most likely to be used and give the information a need about supporting in other ways i.e financial support so
01:21:09 so in essence recommending education of the public in relation to this is that correct yes and are you aware whether any changes or guidance has been implemented or published in relation to this since 2017
01:21:22 published in relation to this since 2017 uh well as a as the british red cross we continue to promote and encourage people to give cash rather than donated goods and indeed in the context of the response to ukraine the
01:21:33 context of the response to ukraine the same issues apply of where goods are being shipped across europe to a european union country when cash would be much much better
01:21:41 better so government has also been supportive of that
01:21:45 of that but
01:21:45 but you're trying to change um a practice and the desire to be kind by people um and it's not just about information you have we have to keep um
01:21:57 have we have to keep um chipping away with that information to help people to see why and build up a community of people who realize why cash is better that's probably the the reason why the title of the first report it was
01:22:09 why the title of the first report it was called harnessing the power of public kindness exactly mr chairman is that a suitable moment yes thank you very much well we have a break during the session uh mr adamson and this is a good time to
01:22:21 uh mr adamson and this is a good time to take it so we'll stop now we'll resume please at 20 to 4 and have to ask you please as i have every other witness please don't talk about your evidence or anything relating to it
01:22:32 to it while you're out of the room all right understood thank you very much would you go with the usher then please
01:22:47 [Music] thank you very much mr keating 20 to 40. please
01:41:04 would you ask mr adamson to come back in please okay
01:41:13 thank you
01:41:19 right mr adelson ready to carry on ahead yes of course thank you very much yes mr keating thank you sir ms allison welcome back we're moving now to the third area we promised to deal with which is this lessons learned and
01:41:32 with which is this lessons learned and looking forward in terms of suggested changes to in particular the civil
01:41:39 the civil the the area in relation to voluntary sector post 2017 and you describe 2017 in general terms as a watershed year in relation to the experiences that brc had
01:41:52 relation to the experiences that brc had is that correct yes and the report which we had open and we referred to just before the break
01:41:59 the break is the 2018 report harnessing the power of kindness for communities in crisis perhaps we could open that up please and just deal with some general principles first which were identified by british
01:42:11 first which were identified by british red cross
01:42:12 red cross and at page six i'm very grateful we have it already open
01:42:17 open and we could look at the right column
01:42:21 and it says this
01:42:26 thank you just waiting for my development we are more convinced in bold than ever that effective emergency response is truly human centered focusing on the individuals and communities at the heart
01:42:37 individuals and communities at the heart of an emergency this means there's a need to ensure people have timely and compassionate access
01:42:43 access to the support they need in that moment whether this is practical emotional or financial so that's an expression by british red cross
01:42:53 cross where
01:42:54 where you're convinced more than ever that it needs to be human-centered is that correct that's correct let's try to explore that expression by the british red cross and as application if we turn over to page
01:43:06 application if we turn over to page seven
01:43:07 seven where eight principles are identified to form the framework for dealing with a crisis
01:43:15 crisis and they are set out there we can see in front of us the summary of the principles and i'm going to touch upon some of those if if we can putting people first principle one to three which is there
01:43:28 principle one to three which is there and we can see at principle two people should expect a coordinated and high quality response in and after an emergency principle three people should be supported in their local communities and
01:43:39 supported in their local communities and local communities should be empowered to respond
01:43:43 respond then we see in relation to principles four and five ensuring people can access to support the need quickly and feel safe and
01:43:54 the need quickly and feel safe and confident to do so and one of the features in relation to the westway we discussed was accessibility wasn't it and people feeling comfortable and able to access that ability is that correct that's
01:44:05 that ability is that correct that's correct
01:44:07 correct and then this is one matter which and we have touched upon in briefly joined inquiry but have written evidence in relation to principle five that people should have access to social and psycho
01:44:20 should have access to social and psycho psychological support as well as the practical help they need is that correct yes and lastly really within the theme that you've mentioned before the break
01:44:32 you've mentioned before the break harnessing kindness following a major incident
01:44:36 incident education where people should know how to give their financial support in an emergency and people should be supported to give in ways that will help the most vulnerable is that correct yes so the expression of principles
01:44:48 the expression of principles which are identified by the british cross and is it your view that this should be the the framework that underpins an emergency response yes we think there's so much learning
01:45:00 yes we think there's so much learning from the events of 2017 and then indeed subsequent events that's continued with covid
01:45:07 covid and other emergencies that there's an opportunity to do it better and that emergency response is often
01:45:14 often and risk management are often quite um technical disciplines in fact and some of the language can get technical
01:45:22 technical and lose sight of the human beings who actually need help um and that once the fire is put out or once the ambulance has taken someone to the hospital the recovery process starts to take
01:45:34 the recovery process starts to take place from the first 24 hours onwards and that's very much about that's a human process
01:45:41 and after these were your learnings as an organization reflecting those incidents that you experienced as an organization in 2017
01:45:52 2017 and once identifying those principles is it writes that there was another report in 2019
01:45:58 in 2019 if we could open up ready for anything putting people at the heart of the emergency inq triple zero one five zero eight nine so of the three reports this is the
01:46:09 so of the three reports this is the second one in time this is early 2019
01:46:14 2019 and in essence what appears is that british red cross then undertook surveys and consulted with a number of stakeholders including the public as to
01:46:25 stakeholders including the public as to the application of those principles and try to get some more information as to what people wanted is that a fair summary
01:46:32 summary yes and the reason that we did that is that
01:46:36 that in the years up to 2017 with the exception of the london bombings of 2005 which are obviously enormous in their impact and implications
01:46:47 impact and implications the characteristics of most of the events in the uk had been relatively small scale and we saw that um from the events of 2017 and then when you looked at to the future
01:46:58 future with the potential impact of climate change of cyber attacks of terror attacks and so on the emergencies in the uk were going to be much more of a feature
01:47:07 feature of the lives of all of us and therefore understanding how people thought about emergencies both but the public themselves and other stakeholders was an important part of building a picture
01:47:16 picture of how we could improve the resilience of the nation yes and of course this is all pre-covered this is 2019 the work you've undertook and in in essence the report was based on
01:47:28 in in essence the report was based on interview with staff volunteers and people who experienced emerging situations and as well as a survey of 5 000 members of the public is is that what underpinned this report
01:47:40 is is that what underpinned this report uh yes
01:47:45 and i'm just going to summarize matters which are set out in a report and we're going to turn to the executive summary but in essence the report explored what people need and want before
01:47:55 before during and after an emergency and of course while recognized needs can be highly individualized is it fair that four broad themes of
01:48:06 is it fair that four broad themes of needs were identified um
01:48:11 um i'm sure that's the case i think let me help you because i know there's a number of documentation number of documentation you've assisted with us let's bring it open up a page two please this should assist your page five
01:48:24 this should assist your page five actually forgive me
01:48:32 to find the right page for you actually it's page four
01:48:39 thank you so much executive summary
01:48:45 and it if you see immediate practical needs so there's there's four main areas which are drawn out immediate needs when crisis hits include food shelter medication there's a need
01:48:56 food shelter medication there's a need for privacy to feel safe does it those basic needs was the first matter secondly mental health and psychosocial support
01:49:05 support and it says here this is a hugely significant factor in the early stages of recovery those psychological needs should be treated as equal to a person's physical health this includes an emphatic need
01:49:17 emphatic need empathetic need forgive me to give time to reflect and to tell their story to make sense of what happened and the feeling control of what happened next is that correct yes it is
01:49:28 is that correct yes it is and
01:49:31 i'm not going to invite us to look at it but page 32 of the report it says this when we spoke to those who had been involved
01:49:38 involved in emergency situations about what advice people might need one issue that came up was how complicated the system was and
01:49:47 and how there needed to be support and that was one of the reasons underpinning the the need for advice support and advocacy is that correct which we see
01:49:58 advocacy is that correct which we see just at the top right hand column yes it is because i just referenced the mental health and psychosocial support of course again just to say because i think i can't remember whether it's this report or one of the other reports but
01:50:09 report or one of the other reports but an important distinct of course all of us the whole society has been on a
01:50:15 a much greater recognition of mental health needs and their criticality now than there was five years ago or even three three years ago yes um i think one of the most important things that we draw out in this suite of reports
01:50:26 draw out in this suite of reports because their set of connected reports in fact
01:50:29 in fact is that while there is greater recognition of the need for mental health support in the aftermath of emergencies less recognition of the immediate need for psychosocial support right in the moment
01:50:40 psychosocial support right in the moment so mental health support by the nhs may get mobilized in the weeks following but actually it's in the immediate aftermath of an emergency that often that that may be missing in terms of the
01:50:52 that that may be missing in terms of the need for for that for support right at that time
01:50:58 yes indeed you say set and report there's a danger that this is overlooked and not prioritized exactly and the psychological impact of major incident is likely to affect not just those who've been physically
01:51:10 just those who've been physically injured but a much larger number of people too is that a fair summary from the suite of reports about the importance of this type of help yes and that the psychological effects can take may
01:51:22 psychological effects can take may manifest themselves at even years after the emergency itself and for the people affected by the grenfell tower fire of course all those who could see the fire could see the tower um and can still see
01:51:35 could see the tower um and can still see it could be affected by by it and the trauma that that could trigger so we dealt with that was the second of the themes which were identified and we were just touching upon advised
01:51:47 and we were just touching upon advised support and advocacy and
01:51:49 and identifying how people affected by emergency will need help with navigating systems
01:51:55 systems and it says it's important this help is both coordinated and consistent critically support must empower those affected to take control of their own recovery must also provide a platform or
01:52:07 recovery must also provide a platform or voice for victims and affected community needs
01:52:10 needs just just exploring that for a moment in what way would you see that materializing how support must empower somebody those affected to take control of their own recovery
01:52:25 well i think that in a way there's two precursors to that firstly every emergency is different and
01:52:32 and how and every individual is affected differently fired um
01:52:38 um in terms of what their needs are you know and whether they those are you know they might have lost their livelihood they might have lost their house they might be affected by the
01:52:49 house they might be affected by the trauma of uh what they've experienced um and um
01:52:54 um and um or they may have not had very high coping capacity to start with they were disabled or frail nelson or whatever or marginalized not feeling able to access authority
01:53:04 authority um
01:53:05 um and trusting in authority so all of the all needs are different so the key point we're making here is that actually we need to be engaging with people as individuals and getting alongside them um and that can be through um you know
01:53:19 um and that can be through um you know well-trained volunteers with
01:53:22 with who have high degrees of empathy and who've been trained in handling situ supporting people who've been through traumatic situations to explore where they are
01:53:33 where they are and what they want to be able to do and then putting together the packages of support that will help them get back
01:53:40 get back um you know on a stable path that you know and take control of their lives so that's all about understanding the visual and then them having again to use the the parlance of the day
01:53:51 again to use the the parlance of the day you're having agency in actually managing yeah the way forwards i skipped over but not but not by accident information communication i just wanted to deal with that one last
01:54:02 just wanted to deal with that one last which is the bottom left-hand corner and it says this includes a need for leadership and organization for accurate accessible and timely information and ability to contact and communicate
01:54:14 and ability to contact and communicate with family and friends and later on in a report it says this at page 26 of the report sharing information can also help lessen the psychological impact of an
01:54:26 lessen the psychological impact of an emergency by providing reassurance clarity and managing expectations is that right yes so
01:54:34 so the more important that that had the impact communication can have it can lessen
01:54:40 lessen the psychological effect of an incident yes but the what's important is that all of the people who are affected by an emergency have information about what's
01:54:52 emergency have information about what's happening
01:54:54 happening and
01:54:55 and and where they can get support and that's important not only for the person or people directly affected but also for their family and friends who will be worried and concerned about them and so good information is key
01:55:06 good information is key to helping support people through the recovery process well in fact through the response potentially but then also through a recovery process and one practical matter which is flowed
01:55:18 and one practical matter which is flowed from this is is it right that in relation to the general ability of the public to access support is that post 2017 that there's now a single support line which has been set
01:55:30 single support line which has been set up called a national emergency support line is that correct uh we have i don't think there's a standing national emergency support line but when there is an emergency
01:55:41 there is an emergency actually apologies let me backtrack we have
01:55:45 have we have a standard standing national emergency support line but then what we do it may it then surges according to what the emergencies are that we're um uh
01:55:56 uh dealing with so it's surged during covert and then it um you know we put in extra capacity to handle the amount of number of calls coming in and then it uh we scaled it back and then it has what
01:56:08 we scaled it back and then it has what in fact it's surging right now for the to support the arrival of ukrainian refugees who are seeking support and cash and sim cards and all that practical help that we're able to give
01:56:19 practical help that we're able to give so the difference now compared to back in 2017 where there was issues in relation to utilizing and setting up as a specific support line
01:56:30 setting up as a specific support line is that the british red cross as an auxiliary to government has this infrastructure set up which as you described can be scaled up to reflect an incident that's that's correct it was a
01:56:41 incident that's that's correct it was a capability to create one before which we did it's now a permanent uh capability that we scale according to the emergency that we're dealing with at the time
01:56:52 that we're dealing with at the time the second of the three areas i wanted to explore in this last part of your evidence is under the label multiple multi-agency response and the role of the voluntary sector
01:57:03 sector and you mentioned in your statements we don't need to turn to it at paragraph 127
01:57:09 127 is that there was there is a need to strengthen working relationships between all those responding to emergencies on this scale in the future and i just wanted to explore that a little bit more
01:57:21 little bit more did you consider back in 2017 that there was
01:57:24 was an issue regarding how the voluntary and community sector was externally perceived or valued
01:57:35 i think it was pre-2017 it was a different world because as i observed earlier there was a sense that actually the emergencies taking place in the uk were
01:57:46 emergencies taking place in the uk were with
01:57:47 with some notable exceptions of relatively small scale and actually the arrangements we had in place
01:57:53 place were um
01:57:55 were um fine for the kind of uh challenges that we faced
01:57:59 we faced after 2017 and then i think intensified by all the events that we've seen since there is a realization that emergencies are going to be a feature of
01:58:10 emergencies are going to be a feature of uk life
01:58:11 uk life for the years to come and actually we needed to revitalize the
01:58:16 the um the relationships and capability relationships between and capabilities of the different actors in the volunteer community sector but also of central and local government so you've described how the the world
01:58:28 so you've described how the the world we're facing is changing a paragraph 132 of your statement we don't need to turn to it it says this there's still inconsistent recognition by those authorities of the importance of the
01:58:39 authorities of the importance of the voluntary and community sector in any response to those communities and their recovery from emergency and you set out how that in your review was a wasted opportunity is that correct
01:58:51 is that correct or was it correct as of 2017
01:58:56 i think that if you look at the documentation words that are
01:59:05 are set out in various documents and from governed about there is a clear recognition that the volunteering community sector is important to assuming to
01:59:17 is important to assuming to enabling
01:59:18 enabling uh really good outcomes for the people who are recovering from an emergency in this recognition of the distinction between the immediate response and then their actual recovery and people able to get back on with their lives again
01:59:30 get back on with their lives again and
01:59:31 and as the voluntary sector and and uh i think it's fair to say led by the british red cross and certainly facilitated by us we have put a huge amount of effort into building the connections between
01:59:43 building the connections between national and local voluntary organizations to make it through
01:59:50 through a collaboration called the volunteer community sector emergency partnership to make it more likely that
01:59:56 that organizations such as some of those local ones that we discussed earlier actually did open their doors in the middle of the night they make it more likely that they are familiar with what it takes to respond in an emergency and
02:00:07 it takes to respond in an emergency and then that might be asked of them so we've formed a partnership which is now 150
02:00:13 150 partners about 20 to 30 nationals and about 120 locals who are committed to building the connections in advance of emergencies doing joint training
02:00:24 doing joint training seeking to build a partnerships with central and local government and also to make it easier for central and local government to work with our sector um because otherwise we can look quite diffuse um to try and make it easier for
02:00:36 diffuse um to try and make it easier for central local government to work with us so that genuinely we can form a part the kind of partnership that will help the nation be more resilient in this more turbulent world that will result in practical terms in more emergencies
02:00:47 practical terms in more emergencies whether caused by cyber attacks climate change
02:00:50 change um terror attacks or whatever so there's a lot in there um which is very helpful thank you and we probably can distill to a few things
02:01:00 things in 2018
02:01:03 in 2018 harnessing the power of public kindness report refers to a phrase fragmentation and how there is a need to heal the fragmentation between statutory and voluntary services
02:01:14 voluntary services and between national and local voluntary organizations that's page six that report that's in 2018 just having that in mind that fragmentation and you've mentioned that
02:01:27 fragmentation and you've mentioned that the voluntary and community sector emergency partnership has been set up since then and you're the chair of that organization isn't that correct so you were to chair that organization i'm i'm co-chair co-chair with uh the chief
02:01:39 co-chair co-chair with uh the chief executive of the umbrella body for local organizations and that's symbolizing the partnership between national and local is that the national association for voluntary and community act it is yes
02:01:51 voluntary and community act it is yes nafca yes yes so as co-chair of that new partnership something which is set up post 2017 do you think that has addressed
02:02:04 do you think that has addressed the fragmentation which is identified in the 2018 report i think it's making progress in addressing the fragmentation
02:02:15 addressing the fragmentation but that is a long journey because there are you know
02:02:21 you know many thousands of local voluntary organizations and
02:02:26 and there is also a need to strengthen the relationships at every level with government and to build those relationships and so
02:02:37 and so the fragment so we are addressing the fragmentation but it is a it's a we're on a journey to do that so this partnership would have have any engagement with national government the
02:02:48 engagement with national government the voluntary and community sector emergency partnership would that be a an organization which would communicate with central government or be that sort of um interplay interface it would not only
02:03:00 um interplay interface it would not only communicate with central government but it has it attempted to design in to the emergency partnership steering group membership by central government um so that we are in the room together to try
02:03:11 that we are in the room together to try to look at well what are the threats or hazards and risks that the nation faces yes and then how can we be better prepared for them let's go down a level to another subheading which is the local resilience
02:03:22 subheading which is the local resilience forums
02:03:24 forums and
02:03:25 and query whether there's inconsistent partnership which is something raised in this suite of reports we've discussed
02:03:35 something which is set out as a summary and you can perhaps confirm is correct and one of the reports is that the responsibility for crisis planning and response at a local level in england lies with 38 local
02:03:46 level in england lies with 38 local resilience forums bringing together amongst others emerging responders local authorities the nhs and local voluntary and community sector organizations is that a accord or your recollection yes
02:03:59 that a accord or your recollection yes and in relation to we've heard about the local authority panel and sector panels when it comes to the voluntary sector there's also voluntary sector panels which feed in to
02:04:11 voluntary sector panels which feed in to these local resilience forums is that correct yes but the arrangements can vary quite a lot
02:04:18 lot between different local resilience forums okay i think we've seen for london as an example that there is a voluntary sector panel and a number of other panels as well
02:04:29 as well perhaps we could i can lead in relation to this in relation to 2018 report it says at page eight recent events show that there's no guaranteed consistency across areas in
02:04:41 guaranteed consistency across areas in terms of the effectiveness of the structures and plans of emergency response
02:04:47 response some voluntary sector panels are not elected or representative and not properly included as part of the design and delivery of emergency response so that is that page 8 of harnessing the
02:04:58 that is that page 8 of harnessing the power of public kindness report so against that background it's revisited again in the reports that we have right in front of us people power and emergencies
02:05:10 power and emergencies um which was published in late 2019 as we heard
02:05:14 we heard and perhaps we could turn please to page nine for the executive summary of this this is right in fact it's not the documents it's i'm going to give you the reference numbers
02:05:25 reference numbers inquiry 15093
02:05:29 getting my reports mixed up
02:05:34 so the final report in the suite late 2019
02:05:40 late 2019 and if we could turn to page nine please
02:05:47 okay thank you very much
02:05:51 we see you in an introduction the reference to the 38 local resilience forums
02:06:04 and on the right hand side
02:06:07 key findings it says local resilient forums typically only engage with voluntary sector organizations that have experience of emergency response work missing out on insights and expertise of
02:06:20 missing out on insights and expertise of a broader range of voluntary and community sector organizations
02:06:27 and then it says overleaf a page two plays of this page 10 as we are looking at it there are barriers to communication and engagement top left between local
02:06:39 engagement top left between local resilience forums and voluntary and community sector organizations
02:06:49 and it it follows isn't it that there this
02:06:53 this co-report between you and the national association for voluntary and community action
02:06:58 action they undertook a survey of local voluntary sector organizations and we could see at page 17 the outcome in relation to this survey about this these barriers to communication
02:07:18 and it says this all three strands of research found that communication and engagement between local resilience forums and voluntary and community sector organizations was inconsistent that's the word we've used a number of
02:07:30 that's the word we've used a number of times now
02:07:31 times now and it says navka that's the national association for volunteering community action
02:07:36 action survey of local voluntary sector organizations found that 91 percent 41 of 45 were not aware of their local resilient forms plans and 62
02:07:47 and 62 28 of 45 said that there was barriers to good communications with local resilience forums
02:07:56 and it says a little bit later on that there was an issue regarding plans not being widely accessible online so in relation to this these barriers
02:08:08 so in relation to this these barriers communication being at best inconsistence is that something which in your view remains a concern
02:08:17 yes it does the um
02:08:21 the um you would expect you wouldn't expect everything to be the same because the context geographical contexts are different um in rural areas densely packed urban areas richer areas poorer areas
02:08:33 areas richer areas poorer areas but you expect some consistency in terms of the
02:08:37 of the ambition for partnership between the sectors to enable
02:08:42 to enable better preparedness and resilience to ensure better outcomes when an emergency takes place and we still have some way to go
02:08:53 still have some way to go in establishing um the arrangements for that and there is there some way that you can see that being improved is there a
02:09:05 is there a magic formula to bring consistency to an area where there's inconsistency there is no magic formula um what there is um
02:09:14 is um but we have opportunities to do it better
02:09:17 better and those opportunities include the current review of the civil contingencies act and its guidance and the work that is underway on the development of a national resilience strategy
02:09:29 strategy and the impetus those are the practical things happening in central government right now but in addition we have an opportunity because of the impetus created by the country's
02:09:40 of the impetus created by the country's experience around covert but also the way in which people have actually shown great solidarity in responding to the arrival of afghan refugees and indeed ukrainian refugees now
02:09:51 ukrainian refugees now to create a different kind of dialogue about you know what would good look like and the work that we're trying to do through the emergency partnership is all about trying to create the
02:10:02 is all about trying to create the conditions for those kind of con conversations to develop at local and indeed at national level i'm just going to move on to
02:10:13 i'm just going to move on to local resilience forum plans which are touched upon in this report at page 10 please
02:10:20 please i'm going to deal with it briefly i hope
02:10:25 i hope fairly
02:10:32 and it says this at the paragraph the left-hand column second paragraph whilst most local resilient form plans broadly covered the practical and psychosocial needs of individuals in communities at times of
02:10:44 individuals in communities at times of crisis the plans did not offer detailed guidance on flexible approaches to support
02:10:50 support and it says in particular a lack of personalized support most plans covered basic humanitarian needs yet did not consider how much support could be personalized
02:11:01 how much support could be personalized and i give an example 85 of local resilient forms plans were reviewed mentioned providing food yet only 44 considered dietary requirements an illustration perhaps a basic
02:11:12 illustration perhaps a basic illustration at that point and the prioritization of short-term needs
02:11:18 needs the mercy plans consistently prioritize short-term needs over longer-term support and longer term issues tend to be considered within the remit of other bodies such as local authorities are featured in other
02:11:30 authorities are featured in other specific plans such as the recovery clan just dealing with that for a moment and the the tension between emergency response and emergency
02:11:43 response and emergency and recovery effectively and we've heard already in relation to recovery that's something which is normally led by the local authority there is statutory guidance in relation
02:11:55 there is statutory guidance in relation to the former emergency response there's non-statutory guidance in relation to the latter recovery do you think or have you a view in relation to the status of the guidance
02:12:07 status of the guidance for
02:12:08 for emergency recovery
02:12:13 i mean we we would like to see the review of the civil contingency act and its guidance and indeed the national resilience strategy put much more emphasis on that about the recovery process
02:12:26 about the recovery process and
02:12:27 and the need to recognize the different needs of different people in different circumstances um that that is our that's our position
02:12:38 that that is our that's our position where i would absolutely acknowledge those challenges is when you have the interaction between long-term vulnerability and that is then when somebody who is vulnerable anyway or in it or
02:12:49 vulnerable anyway or in it or affected by very significant health inequalities for example as we've all realized during the covert period actually it's hard then to separate out the recovery process from there at the situation that we're already in
02:13:00 situation that we're already in so it's it is messy and we see the same in our international work but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have the ambition to do it much better by really focusing everything around people the national risk register could be
02:13:11 the national risk register could be focused more around the impact on people of um of those risks there's opportunities to build that into the frameworks and the ways in which we think and work and therefore into our training and and the partnerships that
02:13:23 training and and the partnerships that we have
02:13:24 we have i'm going to just focus on one word you use vulnerability because it was the last point i wanted to deal with in relation to plans and then i'm going to deal with your finally the wider recommendations which you've alluded to in your answer if we could go
02:13:36 alluded to in your answer if we could go to page 24 please of this report people powers in emergencies
02:13:42 and it's the point of mix here regarding vulnerability the review found the local resilient forums needed to go much further to consider and address the varied vulnerabilities faced by local
02:13:53 varied vulnerabilities faced by local populations it says only 30 of local resilient plans which were examined 8-27 included a definition of vulnerability and not all plans included measures for
02:14:04 and not all plans included measures for identifying and helping people was that something which was drawn out from this report
02:14:11 report which was of significance yes it it it is very it's very significant that we're recognizing the people who often get missed because they're not
02:14:23 often get missed because they're not part of the big crowd that is affected by the emergency or the majority and actually it's about addressing the vulnerability that individuals and groups have within the whole population and perhaps we've got a
02:14:34 whole population and perhaps we've got a pictorial
02:14:36 pictorial illustration at the bottom if you could scroll down a little bit we see of the plans from the local resilience forums which were examined there's 27 we see that the local plans
02:14:48 we see that the local plans which cater for categories of vulnerability at the top would be non-english speakers but equally it shows that perhaps that's two-thirds of plans
02:14:59 two-thirds of plans refer to that specifically and then we see towards the bottom a number of areas of categories of vulnerability which have got little or no
02:15:10 no recognition is that correct yes i'm grateful for your patience and the panel's patience i'm going to move on to the final points which deals with what you have said regarding changes to
02:15:23 what you have said regarding changes to the the act and the framework and indeed this report calls for a wider review of the regulations and guidance as you said today and so that it outlines quote a clearer
02:15:35 and so that it outlines quote a clearer role for the voluntary sector and
02:15:40 and if we actually turn to page 11 of this report we could see that please thank you
02:15:50 it's the top
02:15:53 top right hand side of the page it says enshrining a clear role for the boundary sector would also ensure that voluntary and community organizations were consistently and thoroughly embedded within local
02:16:04 thoroughly embedded within local resilience forums improving their ability to plan a human centered approach so that's the that's what the report the last report in this suite that we've gone through
02:16:17 in this suite that we've gone through and sets out and the reasons why you consider it is necessary for that embedding to take place it's how that's done i want you to perhaps try to assist the panel with
02:16:29 perhaps try to assist the panel with do you consider the act and the regulations as insufficient or is it a case that then the enabling powers which we just refer to the acts and regulations are not being applied
02:16:41 and regulations are not being applied correctly is it a framework or is it a delivery would probably be a simple way of putting it it's both
02:16:47 it's both because the framework
02:16:50 framework um uses the phrase that the local resilience forum should have regard to the role of the voluntary sector we think there's an opportunity in the
02:17:01 we think there's an opportunity in the civil contingency act or its guidance to actually require a partnership with the volunteering and community sector in order to and we think that there is considerable
02:17:12 think that there is considerable evidence of the role the volunteering community sector has played in practice in this
02:17:17 in this series of emergencies to which the countries had to respond since 2017 or through 2017 and there and thereafter and therefore that the framework could be considerably strengthened
02:17:29 be considerably strengthened and then that the assurance of the application of the framework could also be strengthened to for example begin to address and make more transparent the
02:17:40 and make more transparent the inconsistencies in the ways in which local resilience forums approach their task their very difficult task but to endeavor to um shine a light on
02:17:51 shine a light on good practice and then but also to address and pull up poor practice or where practice could be better and we think and then to actually expect create an expectation of leaders
02:18:04 an expectation of leaders both in our sector as a volunteer community sector to act in responsible and engaging ways with their sector partners as an onus on us as well but also on leaders in local and central
02:18:17 also on leaders in local and central government to engage with us um and not to engage with us properly so that we can ensure a better coordinated response that is in the interest of the people we're all here to
02:18:28 interest of the people we're all here to serve thank you i'm just going to draw out a few things you mentioned there
02:18:33 there and you mentioned that the the framework the regulations make reference to that the category one responder or the lrf
02:18:44 category one responder or the lrf should have regards to the role of the voluntary sector that's regulation 23 is what you're specifically referring to and what you said there is that you consider that to be insufficient is that a fair summary yes
02:18:56 a fair summary yes and and you've suggested that there should be a more firmer um
02:19:01 um legal basis where a category one responder or lrf is a category responder actually is is
02:19:09 is under a duty to be in partnership with the
02:19:14 the the
02:19:16 the voluntary sector forgive me yes that that is correct and i wanted to just explore what you were saying about assurance in relation to that to try to
02:19:28 in relation to that to try to avoid the inconsistency which is set out as an issue in the reports we've referred to
02:19:36 the the panel have touched upon um in evidence the as it then was the standards for london which in due course still here have been
02:19:47 in due course still here have been superseded by the resilience standards for london in relation to focusing on london for a moment do you consider that the the current
02:19:58 do you consider that the the current either national resilience standards are the
02:20:01 the london resilience standards is sufficient to provide assurance of
02:20:09 of civil contingency capability i can't comment on the london resilience standards specifically what i would say is that i don't think that the mechanisms for assurance
02:20:21 that the mechanisms for assurance in the round are
02:20:25 are good enough and indeed for there's an opportunity to consider the status of local resilience forums the expectations of the resourcing of
02:20:37 the expectations of the resourcing of local resilience forums the standards for them and to make that much more transparent and ensure that it's regularly reviewed so that when an emergency does happen
02:20:49 so that when an emergency does happen um all partners parties and partners are ready to respond in a coordinated way and we have made suggestions about for example peer review processes and so on
02:21:01 example peer review processes and so on that could be used to help with some of those things for example and your basis for having concerns regarding the assurance spaces where does that derive from
02:21:13 where does that derive from it's from our experience of across the country of working with different local resilience forums and i think it would be a widely recognised
02:21:25 in view of the current situation notwithstanding that some many local resident forums are doing an excellent job in very difficult circumstances and i've been particularly active especially over the last few years
02:21:36 especially over the last few years and in terms of your experience and representation a number of organizations national level and a regional level do you see
02:21:48 do you see a greater role for national government in relation to the resilience assurance or civil contingencies generally
02:22:02 i think that
02:22:10 it's a system between central there's about the relationship between central government and local government central government and national voluntary sector partnerships such as ours and then between
02:22:21 ours and then between us and the local level and then and then the local level engagement all of those if that was a square of relationships of connect or we can strengthen all of them and central government itself is made up of many
02:22:34 government itself is made up of many departments who have different roles in an emergency there's an opportunity to connect up the government departments better centrally and then to have an expectation of them that they will engage
02:22:45 engage in the kind of partnerships that enable us to work together to be better able to respond and we're we're very committed which is why we've created the emergency partnership to try to create the conditions in which that relationship
02:22:56 conditions in which that relationship can be built can be deepened and developed in the interest of people we're all here to serve johnson i'm very grateful and we'd be pleased to know that they're all the
02:23:07 pleased to know that they're all the questions i have at this stage what i'm going to do is with the chairman's permission is ask perhaps for five minutes just to allow if there's any additional questions from those who are watching within the room
02:23:18 within the room and then we can bring you back in if that's okay of course yes well we do have a break at this stage mr adamson because council sometimes overlooks something that he ought to have put to you or more likely that
02:23:30 have put to you or more likely that those outside the room who are following the proceedings they will suggest questions that we should be asking you so we'll
02:23:36 so we'll we'll break now um is five minutes going to be enough mr keating i think it will be and if i need more time i'll i'll ask her all right well we'll come back at half past four and then we'll see if there any more questions for you then okay all right
02:23:48 questions for you then okay all right thank you thank you very much if you would like to give the our show please thank you
02:23:57 thank you our fans for unless you tell us you need more time
02:29:17 would you ask mr anderson to come back in please
02:29:22 [Music]
02:29:27 yes please sit down yes thank you but we'll see if there are any more questions for you shall we strands okay all right yes just one question actually and if we could have a look at brc triple zero
02:29:39 brc triple zero 66 which is the first report we've seen in a suite of reports which was issued in 2018 and we're looking at the page already at page 10 i'm very grateful
02:29:50 at page 10 i'm very grateful and we you'll recall and just after the afternoon break we were dealing with the principles in relation to having a human-focused people-focused approach and principle three people should be
02:30:02 and principle three people should be supported in their local communities and local communities should be empowered to respond
02:30:06 respond and it says this local and diverse emergency response should be as local as possible our experience that local community organizations in emergencies whether in the uk or internationally have a
02:30:17 the uk or internationally have a critical role to play you said to us already they're always first on the scene and the british red cross is committed to supporting and nurturing that role harnessing its national and global
02:30:28 harnessing its national and global expertise
02:30:30 expertise and this is the area which the question stems from we already provide some training and advice to others in a sector to upskill them to play a greater role themselves and it refers to
02:30:41 role themselves and it refers to providing free training for islamic relief volunteers and mentions how its intention to advise on how others can provide support and following a crisis and the question is this is what else
02:30:53 and the question is this is what else has
02:30:54 has the british red cross done or considers it will do to meet the diverse ethnic and cultural needs of those who are impacted by by
02:31:04 by by an incident so in other words how how else would they support those voluntary organizations to meet diverse ethnic and cultural needs
02:31:16 so as the british red cross
02:31:20 as an organization we put a huge amount of emphasis on our own approach to inclusion and diversity and strengthening both diversity of the organization and the inclusive
02:31:31 organization and the inclusive inclusivity of the approach to all our work and so
02:31:37 and so when we look at the way in which we responded for example to the covet crisis our specific aim was to focus on some of those groups for example that you highlighted earlier in the
02:31:48 earlier in the table from the report that might otherwise get missed the people who wouldn't have come forwards uh the people who didn't who don't speak english people who might have uncertain migration status to ensure for example
02:32:01 migration status to ensure for example that they were coming forward to get vaccinated in that help and that they were getting the practical the practical help that they needed so we're very systematic in
02:32:10 in using data and a vulnerability index that we developed for example for covert to target the postcodes where those situations were most likely uh to be
02:32:21 uh to be and that as one example and in the context of the uh volunteering community sector emergency partnership which we co-host which we host and i co-chair um again uh
02:32:33 which we host and i co-chair um again uh we are building an inclusive approach into the way in which we engage with
02:32:38 with the 150 organizations that are part of that partnership now and if we all sign partnership agreements which includes commitments to actually working in a needs-based way and where we're using
02:32:50 and where we're using its networks of networks to connect then into local organizations who who will have may have direct access to groups that have otherwise would otherwise be forgotten be they uh people from ethnic minorities whether
02:33:02 uh people from ethnic minorities whether particularly groups for example particularly targeted at diaspora communities who might otherwise get missed or indeed it could be it's not ethnicity but around disability and then we're doing
02:33:14 disability and then we're doing community work then going back to the british red cross we're also doing work specifically for example in uh some of the london boroughs to understand what the experience of people who are otherwise marginalized
02:33:25 otherwise marginalized is in an emergency and how we can connect so there's a lot of um effort going into creating the conditions again in which we can take a much more inclusive approach and that's built into the way
02:33:38 approach and that's built into the way we think as a british across and the way we think as the emergency partnership think and act i should say yes ms edison thank you so much for that answer and thank you very much for your evidence today i have no further
02:33:49 evidence today i have no further questions it just remains for me on behalf of the inquiry team to thank you so much for attending today thank you yes well i understand my thanks on behalf of the panel if i may mr adamson it's been very interesting to
02:34:01 mr adamson it's been very interesting to hear what you have to tell us your evidence seems to range far and wide over the course of uh the last few hours so thank you very much indeed uh
02:34:10 uh we're very grateful to you for coming and now of course you're free to go thank my pleasure i wish you good luck with your incredibly important endeavors so thank you very much
02:34:28 well mr keating that is it for the day but tomorrow there will be another witness for us is that right yes mr millett is back tomorrow right well thank you very much we'll break that and we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning
02:34:40 resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning please 10 o'clock tomorrow thank you