Paul Groves, LFB Head of Training, gives evidence on the delayed implementation of Lakanal House inquiry recommendations, problems with Babcock training delivery, and failures to incorporate fire safety lessons into incident command courses.
00:20:45 uh you ask mr groves to come back in please
00:21:05 screws yes thank you ready to carry on yes good yes mr clear thanks sir mr graves you'll remember before the break we were dealing with tcap0124 and instant command training and as the
00:21:17 and instant command training and as the start of this afternoon session i'd like to take you to some email correspondence in which you were involved and so for that purpose can we go to lfb 004 263 which is an email
00:21:29 004 263 which is an email from stephen green to you on the 14th of december 2013. now it's entitled tcap0124 lachnal house we'll see as we go through the chain
00:21:42 we'll see as we go through the chain that it discusses the findings of the training pilot and we look first of all at page two
00:21:50 um which is your email to stephen green and andy wursson sent on the 13th of december 2013 1808. and first of all can you help us or people watching who was
00:22:01 you help us or people watching who was andy worsen and what position did he hold andy wursten was a group manager within the learning and development strategy team and stephen green was a member of the same team he wasn't dave now you say in
00:22:13 same team he wasn't dave now you say in that email and i quote please see alastair's email below this summation position statement does not accord with anecdotal evidence that i have been receiving can you please annotate your comments within the body
00:22:25 annotate your comments within the body of alastair's email below and
00:22:29 and just for the sake of context can we just scroll down
00:22:36 and just so you can see alistair cummings email which is starts on page two but substances at page three
00:22:45 and i'll just let you have a quick skim read of that to remind yourself the context
00:23:03 um
00:23:35 when you reach the phrase some of the comments from delegates included please shout
00:23:39 shout which i don't think you need to read any further for context
00:23:44 [Music]
00:24:03 okay yep now if we can go back to your email on page two
00:24:09 where you said that that summation position statement does not accord with anecdotal evidence that you had heard about the pilot about the pilot can you remember what anecdotal evidence you'd heard and if so
00:24:21 anecdotal evidence you'd heard and if so from whom
00:24:23 from whom i can't recall that sorry nothing no now can we go to page one of this chain which is stephen green's response and it's sent at 14th of december 2013
00:24:34 and it's sent at 14th of december 2013 at 12 12
00:24:36 at 12 12 and if that could be expanded we see that
00:24:39 that he prefaces a number of comments he makes in the body of this email chain but halfway down he says this and i quote in summary i feel he
00:24:49 i feel he so that would be alistair presumably is trying to pull a fast one and knows full well the requirement has not been met
00:24:58 met doug's work is very good but they are struggling to convert that into training they have an inexperienced senior im so what does im stand for incident management instant management training
00:25:09 management instant management training team trying to deliver this they are not committing have not planned sufficiently to support delivery of this work conscious that we are up against it here if you need to talk to me need me to do
00:25:21 if you need to talk to me need me to do anything phones are on over the weekend so feel free to call now if we can look at some of the comments
00:25:28 comments that mr green makes in relation to this email can we turn to page four of this chain and halfway down page four
00:25:40 now as we've seen alistair of babcock and set out feedback on the tcap0124 pilot including the quotation for me an improvement on the ice from previous
00:25:51 improvement on the ice from previous courses other courses you could sit there and have no input a lot better now to that quotation mr green has added this
00:26:01 this this would not be difficult as the previous was very poor again this about satisfying the rule 43 elements of the tcap candidates would be unaware of what these are so not in a
00:26:13 unaware of what these are so not in a position to comment my question the direct one do you agree that the existing instant command exercises were quotes very poor close quotes
00:26:25 quotes no
00:26:27 no i i i have no experience of feedback to say that the instant command exercise was very poor uh had you formed a separate view as to
00:26:38 uh had you formed a separate view as to the quality of those experiences exercises rather i hadn't received any feedback and i hadn't partake and taken part in one of those myself so i couldn't comment now staying in this email mr
00:26:51 now staying in this email mr then says following the pilot which is at the bottom of the screen at the moment following the pilot a meeting was held to discuss the package the key points of that were one the cde package
00:27:02 points of that were one the cde package provided was accepted as meeting the requirements the coroner's instruction to provide an enhancement to incident command training source andy bell neil withers damien
00:27:13 source andy bell neil withers damien candice
00:27:15 candice mr green then adds the following comment although you cannot see it i apologize differentiated in the text he said this not sure what meeting he is referring to meeting on 10th of december withers was not present
00:27:28 10th of december withers was not present all except that the proposals paperwork satisfied the rule 43 and tcap currently they have not managed to translate these into training now throughout that email mr green makes
00:27:40 now throughout that email mr green makes number of references to translating the proposals into training and making them work
00:27:46 work can you give the panel an idea of the difficulties that babcock were encountering in translating proposals into effective training
00:27:58 i don't really have great recollection of this um i think this would center around the fact around their sector competence
00:28:10 sector competence so i'd imagine it relates back to the uh draw on lfb time to provide a more sort of subject matter
00:28:21 a more sort of subject matter input
00:28:22 input so i'd imagine that's what that's referring to now if we can go stay within this chain but go to page six and halfway down that page
00:28:31 page excuse me
00:28:34 excuse me now mr cummings starts the section headed in conclusion which reads and i quote i am satisfied that the requirements of the coroner have been met and can be reported as such
00:28:45 such mr green then interjects with his comment he says this if he really believes this it does not bode well for future dealings and we need a frank exchange about expectation
00:28:56 need a frank exchange about expectation personally i don't think he does and feel he is attempting to do a very crude job on us
00:29:02 job on us at a time when we are trying to foster trust this is not helpful now we do not have a reply from you in relation to mr green's comments the first question is this what steps
00:29:14 the first question is this what steps did you take to answer the problems that had been identified by mr green in answer
00:29:20 answer to mr cummings's email yeah i can't as i say i can't specifically remember this but what i can say is what i would do in uh generally if this was the case
00:29:32 uh generally if this was the case so
00:29:33 so i would have met i would meet with mr cummings i would go through
00:29:37 through the evidence that he had said and what i had heard from my offices it would have been raised with my line manager and at a
00:29:49 manager and at a governance meeting which probably would have been the performance and commissioning bolt would you have raised it with mr reason the ultimate director with the responsibility i would have raised it with my line manager
00:30:00 raised it with my line manager which was probably mr dale gleash who in turn i would imagine would raise that one mr reason
00:30:09 can you say whether those steps were in fact taken would that have been the normal course of events in light of comments such as these that's the normal course of events i couldn't say categorically that that took place in on
00:30:21 categorically that that took place in on this occasion can we go back to the tcap form and page 14 of that form which is lfb quadruple zero three seven one six
00:30:38 if we go to page 14
00:30:44 now we can see there that
00:30:48 that your signature in the final sign-off box second from the bottom the second from the top sorry yeah dated the 8th of august 2016. is that when you signed off the tcap yes
00:31:00 the tcap yes now when you signed off the tcap in august 2016 were you content that the problems reported to you in late 2013 had been satisfactorily addressed i wouldn't have signed it off if i
00:31:11 i wouldn't have signed it off if i didn't believe that was the case can you remember whether the substance of those problems that were communicated in december 2013 remained a constant source of discussion in the following two and three-quarter
00:31:23 in the following two and three-quarter years
00:31:26 i know that as i've mentioned earlier there were issues around this subject matter expertise of babcock i also know that there was
00:31:37 i also know that there was relationship difficulties between offices from my team and the design team at babcock that you were satisfied everything had
00:31:48 that you were satisfied everything had been resolved to enable you to sign this off on the 8th of august 2016. yeah i wouldn't have signed it off if i didn't feel that the training was fit for purpose can we now turn to your second witness statement to the inquiry which
00:31:59 witness statement to the inquiry which is lfb double zero one zero two one three eight forward slash six nine and paragraph one four eight
00:32:10 now you see that in that paragraph you say this in the first line and i quote a new suite of instant command courses were developed through the tcap process
00:32:22 developed through the tcap process tcap0124 enhanced instant command training
00:32:26 training based on latino inquest rule 43 recommendations is produced exhibit pg-10 following the coroner's recommendation a review was undertaken by the brigade and
00:32:37 review was undertaken by the brigade and babcock to establish whether the existing ic training addressed the specific elements highlighted by the coroner
00:32:44 coroner the new suite of courses included the blackwall and holcroft house exercises both exercises were designed to incorporate the focus areas highlighted by the coroner including situational
00:32:56 by the coroner including situational awareness of changing circumstances anticipation of fire behavior inconsistent with the compartmentation principle
00:33:04 principle and awareness of risk to those above and adjacent to the fire flat although only the whole croft house exercise was ever used in training now bearing in mind what you say there
00:33:16 now bearing in mind what you say there can we look at lfb quadruple zero four eight zero one which is report entitled that latino house incident assurance review
00:33:27 assurance review now as you can see from the front page this report was written by the lfb in august 2018 for the brigades grenfell tower investigation and review team are you familiar with the contents of this
00:33:38 familiar with the contents of this report
00:33:39 report uh yes
00:33:41 uh yes certainly insofar as it affects training yes
00:33:44 yes now the report in broad terms summarizes the work undertaken by the brigade following the lachmul house fire in 2009 and if we could turn to page 29 in this document and action 3b be for bravo
00:34:01 now action 3b as its title states there concerns review instant command training to ensure the seven points by the recommendations made by the coroner are adequately covered
00:34:13 adequately covered and in the right hand column on this page in the second paragraph from the top we see the following text we need to de-amplify the page to see that
00:34:24 the relevant column says this the training commissioning documentation describes the development of a further residential high-rise command decision exercise called holcroft house
00:34:35 exercise called holcroft house no evidence was provided to confirm this command decision exercise has been completed as and is in use
00:34:43 is in use now bearing in mind what that assurance review says mr groves when you said in your second witness statement that only the whole craft house exercise was ever used would you accept that that was inaccurate
00:34:54 accept that that was inaccurate this document your statement no because the whole croft house scenario was used and so your evidence is that the assurance review is inaccurate oh as
00:35:07 assurance review is inaccurate oh as yeah holcroft how scenario was used throughout 2016. can you help us as to when it was put into practice the whole croft house exercise i believe
00:35:18 the whole croft house exercise i believe it was 2016 may have been the end of 2015 but it was definitely used
00:35:29 would you have
00:35:32 have satisfied yourself that the whole croft house exercise had been rolled out before you signed off the tcap in august 2016
00:35:42 if it was listed as a scenario yes but i i can't say that for definite that it was listed or not can we go to bab uh document provided by
00:35:54 can we go to bab uh document provided by gordon reynolds the director of fire at babcock training and it's bab quadruple zero trouble zero five
00:36:04 now this set out relevant training packages including their tcap numbers and the dates when the materials were first available if we can go to page 13 of this schedule
00:36:17 if we can go to page 13 of this schedule and the first row of the table we see an entry for the tcap we're considering at the moment so tcap0124 and you'll see in the column headed data first incident command course where
00:36:29 first incident command course where reference materials were available so the second from the right he says this
00:36:35 this these materials were piloted on numerous occasions between 2014 2016 with a final pilot demonstration to lfb being delivered in may 2016.
00:36:46 delivered in may 2016. the level one ic courses that these materials were intended for were superseded by the following courses he sets them out new exercises for these three courses were created in line with
00:36:57 three courses were created in line with the prioritized incident types supplied by the lfb now the course codes that are provided there in that column refer to incident command courses which came as came about as a result of
00:37:09 came as came about as a result of babcock's
00:37:11 babcock's three-year initial course review process is that correct yes [Music]
00:37:16 [Music] so therefore appear that during the three years of this tcaps progression the court review process had resulted in new incident command courses is that a fair reading of that document that is
00:37:28 fair reading of that document that is yes
00:37:29 yes and had that fact negated the need for the holcroft house review to be carried out
00:37:37 out the whole croft house exercise was definitely used so and you're absolutely certain about it i know that's to be
00:37:45 to be the case yes
00:37:50 one of the things that is striking about the date range which is set out in that column
00:37:56 column is the amount of time it took to develop the instant command control exercises that are referred to and it looks like a period of three years first of all would three years be
00:38:08 would three years be insofar as a benchmark normal
00:38:11 normal for development of courses concerned with this subject matter
00:38:18 a normal tea cap would potentially take up to a year to complete incident command due to its complexity and the issues that discussed earlier turn around
00:38:31 that discussed earlier turn around subject matter expertise did elongate
00:38:35 elongate the teacup process i
00:38:38 i had was three years an undue elongation of the process yes this may be an unfair question and please don't hesitate to say so if you think it is but
00:38:50 think it is but bearing in mind the subject matter and its particular requirements how long would you have expected the process reasonably to have taken a year
00:39:04 and the reason for the delay was the reasons we discussed earlier this morning yes lack of expertise on side of babcock and the problems that flowed
00:39:14 you were head of training yep what did you do to ensure the prioritization and the expedition of this important stream of work
00:39:26 work so at this time i had moved from um training insurance and business relationship and had taken over the commissioning function so i reviewed all of the teacups that
00:39:38 so i reviewed all of the teacups that were on the books at that time and i called a meeting with aleister and gordon reynolds and asked for a position statement in
00:39:49 and asked for a position statement in terms of where we are what was the expectation when were things going to be delivered
00:39:55 delivered and then i uh presented to my line manager at the time the issues that were causing concern and um
00:40:04 and um that was mr dale gleash at the time and he discussed the matters with gordon reynolds
00:40:10 reynolds i believe
00:40:12 i believe there was also a meeting that took place with the commissioner and babcock's chief executive at the time so it's escalated the very high level
00:40:23 level before we leave holcroft house and just trying to find out what happened to it yes
00:40:29 yes do you know enough to say that holcroft house was rolled into the programs that are set out in this column or not would have been subsumed there do you think
00:40:40 if you don't feel able to say then please i i would imagine so but i couldn't say i'll leave it there thank you now um
00:40:50 now um we have routinely discussed babcock's initial course review and in particular respect of instant command can we go to a document lfb
00:41:01 command can we go to a document lfb 004352
00:41:03 004352 which is babcock's report on that review process and in particular on incident management training
00:41:11 now we see the date at the bottom of that front page of july 2013 but if we can go to the covering mail under which email under which it was sent which is lfb
00:41:22 sent which is lfb trouble zero seven three nine seven three
00:41:31 that email was sent on the 27th of october 2014 and so presumably were there various drafts passing between the lfb and babcock between july 2013 and 2014 when
00:41:43 babcock between july 2013 and 2014 when the report was finally finished yes now if we can go back to the report itself at lfb trouble zero four three double five two [Music]
00:41:54 [Music] um you can take it from me that it contains only two references to lachna okay the first is at page 12 and if we go to that and paragraph 6.1
00:42:07 and you'll see that the left-hand column is entitled historical context and if we look at the fifth paragraph down it starts with the words since 1991
00:42:18 starts with the words since 1991 and if that could be expanded please
00:42:23 it says that since 1991 there have been other notable events which have further influenced incident management training including and we see that lachnal house is fourth in that list along with bethany greene and other incidents
00:42:36 bethany greene and other incidents now the second reference to lachnal is in the appendix which starts at page 30 3-0
00:42:42 3-0 and if we go to page 30 there we go and if we can now go to the bottom of page 32 and we see a row-headed political considerations
00:42:55 and if we
00:42:58 we it's a general statements or principle there but if we turn over the page to page 33
00:43:07 and we see in that top box under the heading current issues for consideration the first of which is the outcome of the lack of housing quest and rule 43 letter to the lfb
00:43:20 now given there are only two references to lachnal in this document there is nothing to indicate that the coroner's seven instant command recommendations have been substantially incorporated into
00:43:32 incorporated into or considered by this
00:43:35 this uh
00:43:36 uh comprehensive or supposedly comprehensive review are you able to explain why those matters aren't covered uh
00:43:45 uh i can't explain why they're not specifically covered within this within the review what i can say is that we my department others had to provide
00:43:57 my department others had to provide regular updates to
00:43:59 to odcb
00:44:01 odcb explaining the progress against those seven
00:44:06 requirements so um i don't know why babcock didn't specifically list those in that in that document
00:44:14 document now
00:44:16 now can we turn to email correspondence that you're involved in whilst various drafts have been sort of circulated and if we can go to lfb trouble zero 71968
00:44:33 and this is in the bottom page you can see email correspondence october 2013 and it's an email from gary reason so the director with ultimate
00:44:44 the director with ultimate responsibility for these matters sent to yourself and mr douglas your immediate superior and
00:44:52 and in that email he said this in the first paragraph
00:44:56 paragraph please find attach my obs and revisions relating to the incident command course review document in summary i don't have any major issues with the direction of travel being proposed by babcock but i'm
00:45:09 travel being proposed by babcock but i'm still struggling to see how we move forward in terms of designing and delivering some of the new courses now i suppose the question is this why did you not take the opportunity in
00:45:20 did you not take the opportunity in october 2013 when prompted to by mr reason to highlight that the rule 43 recommendations regarding incident command training needed to be incorporated
00:45:31 incorporated into babcock's review
00:45:35 because the review i would imagine at that time i didn't feel that they that they were being ignored whilst the document doesn't specifically state that
00:45:47 document doesn't specifically state that um
00:45:50 i have no recollection that i felt that they weren't being addressed now if we can go back to the tcap form itself and go to lfb quadruple zero three seven one six
00:46:03 three seven one six and page ten
00:46:12 we can see the second paragraph that starts with the words confirmation of and if that could be expanded thank you
00:46:19 you confirmation of the tcap being closed following the successful completion of holocraft house cde for level one instant command was agreed in 2016. the rest of the existing elements of
00:46:31 the rest of the existing elements of this tcap
00:46:33 this tcap have been incorporated into the ongoing instant command course review now
00:46:40 now having regard to that extract we have not been provided with any evidence to indicate that this tcap or the lack of house coroner's seven recommendations
00:46:51 recommendations were incorporated into the instant command course review now when you signed this tcap as completed
00:47:00 completed can we take it that you're aware first of all of those recommendations yes i would have been aware of this recommendations you're aware of the work of the tcap that's aware of the teacup
00:47:12 of the tcap that's aware of the teacup why then didn't you take steps to ensure that the seven recommendations were expressly covered in the review documents
00:47:24 um because as i've said previously even though it might not have been explicit within the review document we would have had discussions with the commissioning department who the subject
00:47:36 commissioning department who the subject matter experts and they would have advised us whether those seven elements have been included in the training now bearing in mind that at phase one of
00:47:48 now bearing in mind that at phase one of this inquiry um the chairman heard evidence from watch manager dowden the first instant commander at the tower and we've been provided with a copy of
00:47:59 and we've been provided with a copy of uh mr darden's training records and we can go to them which are lfb quadruple zero
00:48:04 zero three
00:48:05 three one
00:48:07 and if the document manager could focus in on page 24 row 1 5 8 9.
00:48:22 so it's page 241589
00:48:48 just whilst we're waiting i'll flag up the point i want to put to you mr gross is that in that particular row there is an entry with the title ofc stm which is operational command skills training
00:49:00 operational command skills training maintenance is that right yes it is mr dowden carried out that course on the 12th of january 2017. now is that a reference the level one instant commander maintenance course it
00:49:12 instant commander maintenance course it is thank you now
00:49:16 now i'll see whether we can amplify the doc it may well be we can't get a better view of it but during his evidence to the inquiry watch manager dowden said that he didn't recall receiving training on how to practically handle or look out
00:49:28 on how to practically handle or look out for early unexpected failure of internal compartmentation or on the impact of building materials and the contents of fire spread now
00:49:38 now taken at their value that at the very least suggests that new incident command courses were not effectively training instant commanders or proposed incident commanders would you accept that
00:49:54 um
00:49:57 no i mean if there was a a newly commissioned piece of training that had been signed off by the uh commissioning department as being fit for purpose
00:50:08 for purpose and then i would say that yes there was effective training and it's not just centrally led training there's other like ops news packages that included
00:50:20 like ops news packages that included information around complimentation so but it was your department had responsibility uh for ensuring implementation of the recommendations and one of those recommendations at lachnal was to
00:50:32 recommendations at lachnal was to anticipate that a fire might behave in a manner inconsistent with the compartmentation principle now bearing in mind what manager dowden said
00:50:42 said would you accept at the very least that he was unaware training had not prepared him for the early unexpected failure of internal compartmentation or the impact of building materials
00:50:54 the impact of building materials or content on fire spread without seeing the training material for that course i couldn't categorically say yes or no and also
00:51:05 yes or no and also i'm not an operational officer so i couldn't say whether that was the case or not can we go back to your second witness statement then which is lfb double zero
00:51:16 statement then which is lfb double zero one zero two one three eight forward slash three one and paragraph 55
00:51:28 and we see a paragraph 55 there in the opening line tcap0124 resulted in changes to course content and incorporated the seven actions identified in inquest action 3b
00:51:40 actions identified in inquest action 3b the following courses were updated with necessary content does your evidence remain that the recommendations were implemented by the measures set out in paragraph 55
00:51:52 paragraph 55 yes
00:52:04 and just to amplify on that general answer the new instant command courses were a result of babcock's initial course review program is that correct yes and the new courses were created through
00:52:15 and the new courses were created through their own tcaps yes they were yes
00:52:22 but the thrust of your evidence is that you're unsure in which way holcroft house was incorporated as part of the exercises we've discussed that's true yes thank you
00:52:34 that's true yes thank you now can i turn on to the separate and distinct topic which is the release of new incident command courses in 2016 and 2017.
00:52:42 2017. now if we go back to babcock's instant command course review which is a lfb treble zero four three double five two forward slash two six
00:53:00 here we have page headed recommendations and if we could amplify the first paragraph thank you it says it is a conclusion of the review that whilst there is some scope to improve incident management training in
00:53:12 improve incident management training in the short term there is a greater need to adopt a more systematic and fundamental approach involving both the lfb and babcock to maximize the benefits longer term
00:53:23 longer term and if we could skip to a paragraph sorry can we skip a paragraph to the heading
00:53:30 heading 14.1 key recommendation the text goes on to say this it is recommended that a joint lfb babcock group be established to undertake a systematic and fundamental overhaul of
00:53:41 systematic and fundamental overhaul of instant management training and then the report goes on to discuss sort of the relevant detail um first of all was that proposed joint working group set up yes that would have been one of the
00:53:52 yes that would have been one of the project boards that i referred to earlier was it given a distinct name no
00:53:57 no so it was
00:53:59 so it was subsumed within the project yeah be the incident command project board
00:54:05 and just in light of that answer could we go to a draft agenda for an entity which describes itself as project the program board incident management review and that's lfb double zero one zero four
00:54:18 that's lfb double zero one zero four seven three nine
00:54:29 and we see this is a meeting uh held on the or to be held on the 18th of august 2014. um
00:54:38 um was this the body that had responsibility yes
00:54:43 yes and is the program board different to the project board that you've is it a question of different names describing the same thing yeah programmable became the project board
00:54:54 programmable became the project board thank you
00:54:55 thank you if we go over to page two and the first bullet point we see the terms of reference set out there
00:55:03 there which is provide strategic oversight and guidance to the steering group hold the steering group accountable for the progress of the instant management review project
00:55:14 review project plan
00:55:16 plan can you help us hear there's another group mentioned here the steering group what was that i i don't know can you help us as to how it related to the programme board or reported the programme board no sorry
00:55:29 programme board no sorry can you give us any information as to who its members were or were likely to be members of that board steering group membership is listed um
00:55:40 um so you've got steve gellar cara kelly doug massey and neil withers
00:55:46 does any of that sort of looking at that does anyone ring a bell no it doesn't [Music]
00:55:54 [Music] so
00:55:55 so were they to do put crudely were they to do the work and report up to the programme board it certainly they they certainly are the doers
00:56:04 doers yeah
00:56:05 yeah and certainly cara kelly on the side of babcock
00:56:08 babcock yep
00:56:09 yep was the head of uh design and doug massey was um one of their leads on instant management now can we go to um
00:56:21 now can we go to um a separate document which is a set of minutes from the incident command project board and if we go to the july 2015 edition which can be found at lfb double zero
00:56:32 which can be found at lfb double zero double one zero six seven one
00:56:42 uh there we go we can see
00:56:46 that you are you head the list of apologies um you don't appear to have attended the next four meetings at all
00:56:57 is it fair to say that this was a matter you delegated down yes sabrina was far more um in a position she understood she was an operational officer and as uh
00:57:09 an operational officer and as uh knows full more about instant command than i do
00:57:12 than i do and has been uh providing papers on a national basis so it made more sense for sabrina to lead on that
00:57:19 on that would delegate it up being more correct description no second what was the purpose of the project board the purpose of the project board was to deliver
00:57:30 deliver whatever the the training requirements were so
00:57:33 were so did it meet regularly was there an appointed regularity or was it on an as and when required basis project boards tended to be on a monthly basis and the court review covered all levels
00:57:45 and the court review covered all levels of instant command levels one through to four is that correct yes now if we go back to your second witness statement lfb double zero one zero two one three eight forward slash three five
00:57:58 one three eight forward slash three five and paragraph sixty five
00:58:03 uh you helpfully set out there a table um setting out the level one incident command courses which were introduced following the course review and we see those courses identified
00:58:16 and we see those courses identified now looking at the final column of your table which is headed on the right hand side which has had to date tcap signed off we can see that all of those courses were signed off
00:58:28 were signed off after
00:58:29 after the grenfell fire is that right yes however in paragraph 66 of the statement below
00:58:39 below you say that the courses were first delivered by babcock to brigade staff on the dates you set out then now
00:58:47 now the dates set out in paragraph 66 are those dates of the pilots or are they dates of the fully approved signed off course being provided
00:58:58 provided [Music]
00:59:03 i it doesn't say pilot so i would say that those were the first iterations of the course
00:59:09 course just
00:59:10 just it may well be that whilst if you look at
00:59:14 at the first one std
00:59:17 std which shows the training having taken place in may starting in may 16 and not finally signed off until june 17 may will be that there were changes
00:59:29 17 may will be that there were changes to the course content so it wasn't finally signed off so remember earlier in in evidence i said that we would do pilots
00:59:40 pilots sometimes if there was a minor tweak to the pilot we would still run the course so you could have further iterations of courses almost as a subsequent pilot course
00:59:53 as a subsequent pilot course thank you now can we turn to another minister the incident command project board and this time it's meeting on the 22nd of august 2017 so broad terms two months after the fire
01:00:05 broad terms two months after the fire that can be found at lfb 001 8195
01:00:16 and if we go to
01:00:20 page two under item four
01:00:24 we see a number of updates there in relation to the new instant command training courses and then the second sub-heading which is level two development maintenance and group manager
01:00:37 maintenance and group manager the update reads thus dm so that's doug massey from babcock advised that the second gm pilot is due to go ahead 11th and 12th september whereas the updates below for the level
01:00:49 whereas the updates below for the level 3 and level 4 courses refer to meetings taking place to quotes scope the requirements for the level three and four course now looking at the dates there mr grove
01:01:00 now looking at the dates there mr grove would you accept that despite the lfb's intention of delivering the new courses by april 2013 by august 2017
01:01:12 that had only been partially completed is that a first statement yes
01:01:21 would you accept that more than four years after the intended deadlines the new courses have not been scoped out for levels three and four and only prospective pilots for level two
01:01:33 only prospective pilots for level two yes
01:01:34 yes can you explain for the panel why there'd been a delay of four years or so i can't explain the delay but i can explain that the priority was level one
01:01:46 explain that the priority was level one and level two because that's where the vast majority of the workforce um needed to have acquisition training for level three and four there is existing courses
01:01:58 three and four there is existing courses that are available either through the fire service college or through
01:02:04 a course known as magic which is for um senior officers in instant command so there were existing courses for level three and four so the focus and the priority was put on level one and two
01:02:17 priority was put on level one and two now if the focus and priority was put on levels one and two we have a position here in august 2017 pilots only had been carried out
01:02:29 pilots only had been carried out what interim guidance advised training was provided in relation to levels one and two the people most likely to have to stand up to be incident commanders what was given to them so that the
01:02:41 what was given to them so that the recommendations of lachnal were met whilst the final programs were being finalized
01:02:47 finalized i can't recall that
01:02:50 was there any
01:02:53 i can't recall that either sorry do you remember any complaints that there wasn't any interim material so that crews were aware of the issues that had been highlighted at lacknow no i
01:03:04 had been highlighted at lacknow no i don't really i don't recall that at all can we turn to the witness statement you provided to the metropolitan police which can be found at net treble zero seven double one zero three
01:03:16 seven double one zero three and page eight
01:03:22 now from the second line down from the top you say this there are a number of training areas within the lfb that are considered a priority instant command training is considered
01:03:33 instant command training is considered to be the crown jewels of training and has always been a priority training topic
01:03:39 topic would you accept that certainly in relation to level two
01:03:46 instant command training had not been accorded the priority and the expedition it deserved
01:03:53 i would say that it was it was still considered to be a priority there was the issue around
01:04:02 subject matter expertise signing off the content but it it was and still remains a priority training project would you accept that
01:04:15 would you accept that having waited four years in relation to level two
01:04:19 level two it's difficult to see the words priority having any meaning yes i can accept that would you accept the same criticism in respect of levels three and four as well
01:04:30 well um i would say less so for level three and four for the reasons i've just explained because there were existing courses available and there are courses that are recognized nationally
01:04:42 recognized nationally um but for um i can see
01:04:47 i can see why that would stand for level two yes if there were no training interim training to deal with the matters identified by the current lachna provided to level one and two instant
01:04:59 provided to level one and two instant commanders would you consider that to be an acceptable position four years after the coronet actually provided a recommendation no definitely not was that ever a source of concern within
01:05:11 was that ever a source of concern within the lfb
01:05:13 the lfb uh yes i think as i've explained there were a number of meetings and uh with babcock um and as i say ultimately went up to
01:05:26 and as i say ultimately went up to the chief exec and the commissioner but not enough to get it done within four years i think that's a fair comment now the we will explore with other
01:05:37 now the we will explore with other witnesses the work of the lfb and seeking to incorporate national operational guidance on instant command um to what extent did the need to await and incorporate more material uh
01:05:48 and incorporate more material uh contribute to the delayed execution of the incident command courses
01:05:55 i think the the national so nog
01:06:02 so nog content was a consideration there was um discussions around how the courses were not
01:06:11 not fully nog aligned and that there was a need to incorporate the nog elements in the course content
01:06:22 course content but that wasn't a significant factor in contributing to the delay no can i now turn to a separate but linked question that's the question of high rise material materials being updated following lachnal
01:06:34 following lachnal and i'd like to deal first of all with bagpot babcock provided high-rise training materials now we've got a handful of those documents on high-rise firefighting and first of all could we
01:06:46 firefighting and first of all could we go to nfb double zero one two zero eight one seven
01:06:52 one seven which really starts at page three
01:06:59 and here we have the title page and it's the lfb standard training support package which i think is called an stsp is that right that's right
01:07:10 right that's right and it concerns high-rise buildings and their features is that right yes and it's dated september 2011. yes what is a standard training support package
01:07:20 package uh so in essence it's something that was contained on um the desktop which was a training pack that stations could utilize
01:07:31 that stations could utilize a bit of a forerunner to operational news and
01:07:36 news and station packages thank you and in your second witness statement apologies for leaping about these documents a bit here but in your second witness statement at lfb double zero one zero two one three eight
01:07:50 zero one zero two one three eight forward slash sixty six um you refer to another iteration of this training support package which was dated i think 26 september 2014
01:08:02 2014 now before we turn to that
01:08:07 um you say sorry we say in paragraph 135 which is the bottom of this page you say that as the stsp was computer-based it sat under the training support icon which could be accessed by
01:08:20 support icon which could be accessed by staff to complete the training rather than the training being delivered now would that arrangement apply equally to the 2011 predecessor as well yes
01:08:33 predecessor as well yes was there any requirement for personnel to complete the 2011 and the 2014 packages was it simply a resource that was there if it was needed um both
01:08:44 um both so it was a resource that was held on the system so if it was identified as an individual training needs individuals would be referred to it but also as part of operational news it may well have
01:08:55 of operational news it may well have signed posted into those packages for them to refresh themselves thank you now if we go to the 2014 package which is lfb
01:09:05 lfb two treble one double six
01:09:13 okay you can take it from me that the content is substantially similar if not identical to its 2011 predecessor does that ring true as an observation without me going through it all for you
01:09:25 without me going through it all for you um
01:09:27 um if you say that's the case i accept it okay
01:09:30 okay i wouldn't know well if we can go to the one difference that arises and it's at page 42 in this document and it's
01:09:38 and it's a new topic which is entitled operational response and if we turn over to page 43 [Music]
01:09:51 we say we see that its aim is to allow firefighters to understand the correct brigade procedures to be followed at highrise instance now
01:10:03 instance now taking it from me that apart from that slide the 2011 and 2014 packages were identical
01:10:11 identical put bluntly was it common for these type of training materials to be recycled over the course of the years yes
01:10:21 now the inquiry has a draft tcap form for high-rise firefighting we can find that at
01:10:27 that at lfb
01:10:29 lfb one six four six
01:10:37 and if we go to page three
01:10:42 we can see that it was drafted by patrick utting on the 19th of february 2015 and if we turn over to page four
01:10:55 and we see towards the bottom of that page section 1.6 under the heading background context it says the following review of policy 633 high-rise
01:11:06 review of policy 633 high-rise firefighting following new generic risk assessment 3.2 firefighting in high-rise buildings and rule 43 latino inquiry is that right
01:11:17 rule 43 latino inquiry is that right have i read outcry yes yes sorry then if we go over the page to page five
01:11:23 there is the impact analysis in section three in the bottom half of that page and am i right in saying that identifies a number of existing training packages which are said to be affected
01:11:34 which are said to be affected by this tcap including firefighter development which is ffd and instant command courses yes now the inquiry is not being provided with any
01:11:45 with any new high-rise training package or with evidence to suggest that existing courses were amended in the light of this particular tcap can you help us as to whether those materials were in fact produced
01:11:59 um is this tcat212 high rise yes
01:12:05 yes would you like to go back to the front page yeah can we just go back to page three
01:12:14 does that so page two let's see if there's anything there
01:12:19 there page one
01:12:23 i think this is tcap212 i think you're right it's high rise in in insulated buildings i think it was ultimately yes i think renamed i think so i think that's yeah and i'm
01:12:35 i think so i think that's yeah and i'm told not
01:12:36 told not no it's different one then is it but can you remember looking if we can go back to page five yep so i'm just looking at the training packages which was said to be affected
01:12:47 was said to be affected so this is a tcap that's concerned with the review of policy 633 and firefighting high-rise buildings we've got the training packages that are said to be affected firefighter development and instant command amongst
01:12:59 development and instant command amongst others
01:13:00 others we don't have any documents which show that materials
01:13:05 materials were produced as a result of the amendments do you know can you help us to whether any materials were produced i can't because i i recall that as tcap212 so it's
01:13:18 i i recall that as tcap212 so it's it maybe we can come on to that at a later date we'll review um position overnight and see if there's anything we can come back to tomorrow morning
01:13:27 now
01:13:34 do you have any recollection of revisions being made to any training packages as a result of a tcap triggered by a review of 633
01:13:45 um this is at the time of the fire isn't it it's not subsequent not subsequent um no so i can say categorically subsequent but i couldn't
01:13:58 categorically subsequent but i couldn't say that
01:13:59 say that prior
01:14:01 let's see if uh there's anything here which i can seems familiar and if i can ask you to go to bab uh quadruple zero
01:14:12 uh quadruple zero double zero seven two
01:14:23 this is entitled op 007 high rise procedure um are you familiar with that package
01:14:30 package um i'm familiar with the firefighter modules yes yes are you able to help us would firefighters have been tested on the contents of this package
01:14:43 package if it had been identified as part of a in ops news as station-based personnel needed to refresh themselves with the content
01:14:53 this is predominantly for new entrants within
01:14:57 within the service and if it were for new entrants would they be assessed on their answers to the questions under this package some of the some of the modules did have an assessment component
01:15:09 assessment component i don't know whether this was this was one of those now can we um go to a separate relink topic which may flow from the discussion we've been having about insulated
01:15:21 we've been having about insulated buildings and there is consideration of those matters and really it's the rejection of case studies on rapid fire spread by the training department in relation to high-rise buildings and if we could
01:15:33 high-rise buildings and if we could start on that topic by going to an email chain which is lfb trouble zero two four double one three and the second email down from the top of that page
01:15:49 and that email was sent on the 14th of october 2013 at 13 23
01:15:56 13 23 when you emailed steve green who worked as we've discussed in the training department's learning development strategy team and you say this further to my recent discussion this suggestion is right up your street
01:16:08 this suggestion is right up your street to comment on can you please let me have your thoughts now the suggestion itself is halfway down page two
01:16:19 under the helpful heading of suggestion and it reads this my suggestion is to extensively expand the number of operational case studies available in training support
01:16:30 training support experience is undoubtedly the greatest teacher with this in mind i propose that case studies of a complete range of different incidents from international national and london fire brigade
01:16:41 national and london fire brigade operational events are listed in training support for users training lectures
01:16:46 lectures case studies to be categorized according to both incident type and main learning points and further linked to brigade policy
01:16:53 policy the east hill case study has a gravity that demands attention encourages debate please easily remember the points raised people easily remember the points raised there are many other important case
01:17:04 there are many other important case studies available including major incidents such as the windsor tower fire in madrid
01:17:10 in madrid shirley towers in southampton and telstar house high rise fire these three encompass high-rise firefighting techniques weight of attack aerials
01:17:19 aerials the
01:17:20 the commander effect and heat stress only some of the learning points now stopping there and moving to the response drafted by stephen green at the bottom half of this page
01:17:31 bottom half of this page if we
01:17:33 if we de-expand here and look at the response and really the third paragraph of that response mr green said this our instant management training already made use of case studies from other brigades whose
01:17:45 studies from other brigades whose operational procedures closely aligned to our own case studies from overseas where the operational procedures employed will undoubtedly be significantly different would be of questionable benefit
01:17:56 questionable benefit now it appears from this limited exchange
01:18:00 exchange that your department made substantive decisions about the content of high-rise training at least is that a fair summary of the position at this point in time i was not responsible for commissioning if
01:18:11 was not responsible for commissioning if you see
01:18:12 you see it's got my header which is business relationships so i afforded it to this would have been kevin hughes lead at the time but yes i think
01:18:24 but yes i think it was
01:18:25 it was ultimately for that department to consider
01:18:28 consider um and they seem to have decided they've gone beyond consideration they seem to be in the decision phase don't they here yeah
01:18:35 yeah yeah and so is evidence of the training depart department making decisions on the substance of high-rise firefighting policy yeah or training i should say yep now we know that the windsor tower fire
01:18:46 now we know that the windsor tower fire in madrid was a high-rise cladding fire that started on the 21st floor and ultimately spread to all floors from ground to the 29th floor now do you agree that in receiving this
01:18:57 now do you agree that in receiving this email
01:18:58 email your department and i use that word advisedly
01:19:01 advisedly it was on notice of an international cladding fire my department wasn't i was no that's why i use the word yes um yes definitely i think it makes it clear that those case studies would be of
01:19:14 that those case studies would be of benefit and the possibility of learning lessons from those funds yeah now
01:19:19 now we don't have any evidence to suggest that anyone in the training department mr green or anyone else passed on this information to operational policy incident management or the fire
01:19:31 policy incident management or the fire safety department would that be normal i.e the information would be kept within your department and not circulated elsewhere no that wouldn't be normal and it should
01:19:43 no that wouldn't be normal and it should be it should have been shared with those departments you've just listed and part of the odcb meeting would have been to look at national
01:19:55 would have been to look at national operational learning and joint organizational learning so potentially and i can't say categorically these incidents should have been brought
01:20:07 these incidents should have been brought to the attention of that meeting to uh highlight the fact that there was learning elsewhere and they could consideration should have been given to whether
01:20:18 whether it's included in existing training or changes to existing training put slightly different is it fair to assume or is it fair that you assumed that learning and development strategy
01:20:30 that learning and development strategy was forwarding this information but you can't say whether they did so in each and every occasion that's exactly the case yes can i now turn to the local nature of high-rise training as a separate topic
01:20:41 high-rise training as a separate topic and including back to basics a program rolled out in 2016 i think now aside from the computer-based packages we looked at earlier on um the inquiry has not been provided with any
01:20:53 inquiry has not been provided with any other centralized training which is focuses exclusively and i use those words advisedly they don't focus exclusively on high-rise procedure was there an except expectation that
01:21:05 there an except expectation that high-rise procedures would be practiced trained out by staff at the station level and not higher
01:21:13 yes they were you remember we spoke earlier about um borough training plans yes
01:21:19 yes and part of that would be an exercise in um high high-rise
01:21:28 and local stations would know they had to train out on high-rise fires it would have been part of the that risk inventory that the borough commander needed to complete
01:21:39 needed to complete now in phase one we heard evidence on the annual batter basics program which had a high-rise theme for 2016.
01:21:47 2016. now is it right that all areas and stations would cover and address the same annual theme go back to basics yes who decided that theme that was um by
01:21:58 who decided that theme that was um by the director of operations which was mr brown at the time how was that theme decided and i'm thinking particularly here how is the theme of high rise fires decided by mr brown i i
01:22:09 high rise fires decided by mr brown i i don't know those um back to basics packages and were not um
01:22:17 run past the training department it was a separate piece of training altogether so i don't know how it was did you have what was put differently what was the training department's involvement in the bachelor basics program none at all
01:22:29 basics program none at all we ever saw was your advice or expertise ever sought by the department with responsibility no i no i did raise it in a
01:22:40 a meeting why was this being done without going through the training department but um but our advice wasn't sought did you raise the concern that there was a need to ensure that whatever has been
01:22:51 a need to ensure that whatever has been trained out via back to basics was consistent with centrally provided training yes and you expressly articulated that concern that was in a top management group meeting and
01:23:02 and to whom was that comment specifically addressed mr so it would have been about 30 people um in the meeting um i seem to recall that i was advised that
01:23:14 i seem to recall that i was advised that there was a back to basics being developed
01:23:17 developed by a
01:23:18 by a particular dac i believe it was a dac for southeast area and i raised the concern at that point why was this being done without going through due governance and the
01:23:29 going through due governance and the fact that it might be contradictory and what response did you receive to those points um that they would raise the matter with uh mr brown did you hear any further from mr brown or anyone else no
01:23:42 from mr brown or anyone else no to what extent were you aware of meaningful differences between the content of centrally provided training on high-rise fire procedure and what was being trained out under the back to basics program i wasn't aware of any uh
01:23:54 basics program i wasn't aware of any uh differences i just thought that they needed to be combined thank you can i now turn to a separate and new topic which is training on facade fires themselves
01:24:07 themselves now in your capacity of head of training am i right in understanding that you're a standing member of the odcb i was yes
01:24:16 i was yes and just before we launch ourselves at the odcb can you remind everyone what those letters stand for uh the operations director coordination board
01:24:27 operations director coordination board and is it right that before your appointment is the head of training you frequently if not invariably attended in place of mr douglas or immediate superior uh deputized for him yes now if we can go to odcb minutes um of a
01:24:39 now if we can go to odcb minutes um of a meeting on the 16th of march 2015 which can be found at lfb 0040619
01:25:01 and we can see here that you attended your fourth from the bottom on the list of attendees and on this occasion you attended
01:25:10 attended with mr doug liege and if we could turn to item 3
01:25:18 which is under the heading impd 6 monthly report july to december
01:25:26 it's instant management project development presumably impd uh
01:25:33 uh i'm afraid there are a number of acronyms here so will you forgive me so the the hop which is the head of operational procedures which is peter cowep
01:25:42 cowep to discuss the issues raised relating to highly insulated buildings and rapid fire growth on page two with hohs who's the health and sorry the head of health and safety who
01:25:54 sorry the head of health and safety who was dr adrian bevin is that right that's right
01:25:57 right do you recall what quotes the issues raised relating to highly insulated buildings and rapid fire growth were no i can't recall that
01:26:08 no i can't recall that now the inquiry has a copy of the six monthly impd report and if we go to that at lfb
01:26:14 at lfb treble zero eight four three nine five
01:26:19 i think this was prepared by dac ellis we came across earlier but
01:26:26 but if that could be expanded so you can just familiarize yourself with it would you have received a copy of this report in advance of the the meeting in july yes 2015.
01:26:39 the meeting in july yes 2015. now could we go to page four
01:26:45 and halfway down page four we see a heading proposed articles for operational news
01:26:53 edition 30 december 2015 then at the very bottom of this page we see the subheading subheading two highly insulated buildings and rapid fire growth
01:27:04 growth and if we turn over the page to page five
01:27:07 five the substance of this item reads as follows and apologies for reading this out
01:27:11 out recent reports from across the uk fire sector have highlighted the specific dangers associated with fighting fires in highly insulated buildings as the level of insulation afforded in modern
01:27:22 level of insulation afforded in modern buildings increases two factors pertaining to fire are affected the ability of such buildings to contain heat increases this means that less energy is required to heat a room to the point where flashover might occur and
01:27:35 point where flashover might occur and the temperatures that can be achieved during a fire are increased external indicators that a fire is occurring or reduced highly insulated buildings need to be well sealed gaps or cracks in the bale that building
01:27:46 cracks in the bale that building envelope allow heat to leak out reducing thermal efficiency in reducing their environmental performance as a result of steps taken to reduce heat loss and seller sela i don't quite know what
01:27:57 and seller sela i don't quite know what that is gaps less smoke from a fire will be able to exit the building to be seen by passers-by or members of the fire service attending an incident rapid fire growth is becoming an increasingly common feature in highly
01:28:09 increasingly common feature in highly insulated buildings studies have shown that firefighters have often been unprepared for such rapid fire growth and as a result have not used effective fire fighting tactics
01:28:21 not used effective fire fighting tactics compartment fire behavior training in simulator units has contributed towards its lack of preparedness in that the fire in these units rarely extends past the compartment of origin and therefore
01:28:32 the compartment of origin and therefore firefighters are not necessarily taught how to identify signs and symptoms of impending sudden fire growth now before we go on to read the recommendation um
01:28:44 recommendation um just ask you a few preliminary questions um had you been made of aware of the issue of rapid fire growth at any point before this meeting and receiving this report
01:28:56 report i would imagine not it doesn't strike you in your memory though
01:29:02 though can you call the thrust of odcb's consideration of rapid fire growth as an increasing phenomenon um
01:29:12 um i think the fact that mr ellis brought that forward to the board and he was the subject matter expert then the board would have taken his um
01:29:24 taken his um you know advice seriously
01:29:27 seriously given the comments there about a lack of preparedness
01:29:33 what did you or your department do in terms of liaising with babcock to make good the deficiencies that have been identified by this report
01:29:47 i can't recall but looking seeing that in the cold light of day anything there that is criticizing the simulated
01:29:58 that is criticizing the simulated training environment then it would i would have expected us to have raised that with babcock to say that we need to look for training in a realistic environment
01:30:09 training in a realistic environment did you ask babcock to investigate such training i i don't recall that no if
01:30:18 if you didn't who would have done from your department uh not someone from my department uh commissioning department probably ops policy that could have done so through mr cowop
01:30:31 that could have done so through mr cowop would you have liaised with mr cow up or did you liaise with mr cowab to ensure that ops policy were doing something about it commission training would you have left it to his own uh discretion
01:30:42 have left it to his own uh discretion um i didn't liaise with him so
01:30:45 so so on that basis i would if i prepar i suppose it would be that i would have expected
01:30:50 expected mr cowop to include that as part of the training requirement would it
01:30:57 would it in your meetings with babcock would you have asked them have you been approached by ops policy to make good the lack of preparedness they've been identified by assistant commissioner ellis no that's not how the
01:31:09 commissioner ellis no that's not how the um
01:31:10 um sort of process worked at the time it was very much that the commissioning departments who were the subject matter experts would come to us as a department so that they wanted
01:31:22 us as a department so that they wanted some there was a gap and that they wanted that then to be that gap to be filled via the teacup process and the bottom line is you would you didn't receive such an approach or request from ops policy no thank you
01:31:35 request from ops policy no thank you now if we can go back to the report which is still on the screen and under the heading recommendation put forward by dac alice he said this odcb is requested to
01:31:46 he said this odcb is requested to consider an ops news article on highly insulated buildings and the dangers of rapid fire spread odcb is further requested to consider a proposal for a training solution to address the issues highlighted the
01:31:57 address the issues highlighted the training intervention should give firefighters an awareness of the increase in the number of highly insulated buildings under construction in london and provide examples of the construction techniques and materials
01:32:08 construction techniques and materials used the training solution should also highlight the dangers associated with firefighting in such buildings and outline how to identify signs and symptoms of rapid fire growth and the firefighting technique tactics that
01:32:20 firefighting technique tactics that should be deployed to contain and extinguish such fires with the development of an operational news article and a training package so the two run together
01:32:31 the two run together typically be an indicator of the topic's importance yes do you recall whether the importance of this topic was discussed at the odcb meeting or indeed subsequently
01:32:46 i know that this package was discussed on
01:32:49 on a number of occasions yes now we can if we go back to the minutes lfb
01:32:57 lfb trouble zero four zero six four seven on the 15th of june 2015
01:33:17 thank you so this is three months after the minutes of the meeting we've just been considering you again attend it and we can see you there fourth on the list of attendees as head of learning and development and
01:33:28 as head of learning and development and hr strategy and if we go to item four which is headed agreement of operational news themes we see the following update so the is it the hoop
01:33:40 so the is it the hoop how would you pronounce it internally we would say the head of op the head of op which operational procedures peter carrup
01:33:47 carrup reported that after discussion with oa so that's operational assurance yes headed by danny cotton yes an article was to be prepared and issued regarding ventilation issues and
01:33:58 regarding ventilation issues and materials of construction this was considered relevant rather than specifically subjecting the issues relating to highly insulated buildings and rapid fire growth agreed to continue with existing themes
01:34:11 with existing themes now
01:34:11 now at first blush looking at how it's recorded here peter capps seems to be suggesting the article should focus on building materials
01:34:19 materials rather than consequential fire spread or on firefighters not being prepared for fire spread beyond the compartment of origin
01:34:27 origin now first of all do you accept that's a fair reading of what mr cowper appears to be suggesting that's a fair reading of how it's been recorded yes do you remember now why mr carrock was suggesting a markedly
01:34:40 why mr carrock was suggesting a markedly different approach to that commended by dac ellis no i'm sorry i don't recall that now we know that an article was published
01:34:49 published in operational news issue 30 in january 2016 and we have a copy of that issue and it's found at lfb trouble zero 61482
01:35:06 and if we go to page five
01:35:11 we see the article and if we go on to page eight
01:35:19 and if that could be expanded we see a list of training associated with the substance of each article and the third row relates to the one that we're concerned with here which is fires and highly insulated
01:35:31 here which is fires and highly insulated buildings
01:35:33 buildings and there watches refer to lfb policies and to the highly insulated building's computer-based training package cbt now
01:35:45 now mindful of what's set out there can we go to the contents of your second witness statement which is lfb double zero one zero two one three eight forward slash two four
01:35:57 forward slash two four if we go to paragraph 38 at the bottom and sixth line down there you exhibit the tcap form relating to the cbt package that we're considering here
01:36:10 package that we're considering here and say this tcap was raised in october 2015
01:36:15 2015 and related to a cbt package linked to operational news 30. i understand that the inquiry is already being provided with operational news 30 dated january 2016 which sets out the mandatory
01:36:26 2016 which sets out the mandatory training arising out of this training requirement this package was developed but due to i.t issues has since been withdrawn as set out within the tcat it is intended that this package will be relaunched in
01:36:38 that this package will be relaunched in ops news 40. can you help us given the existence of those i.t issues why the operational news article referred to a cbt package
01:36:49 news article referred to a cbt package that was not in existence um
01:36:53 um no
01:36:55 no um who would have been responsible for drafting the text inserted in that article that would have been mr ellis's department
01:37:05 and would you or when i say you i mean someone in your department have been asked to check the accuracy of what is set out no and that never happened does that never happened
01:37:17 happened so i think that may be an appropriate point yes good right well at this point mr graves will have a short break we'll come back at 25 to 4 please and again please don't talk to anyone about
01:37:28 again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of them okay all right thank you
01:37:40 thank you 25 to 4. thanks
01:56:45 would you ask mr groves to come back in please thank you
01:56:58 all right mr groove all right thank you all right you happy to carry on yes good yes thank you yes mrs thanks sir mr groves thank you um can we turn to the tcap that flowed from the cbt package
01:57:11 tcap that flowed from the cbt package that we've been discussing or triggered it and it's your exhibit pg-32 which can be found at lfb00102213
01:57:26 now this is tcap number zero two one two is this what you were uh that's i was recalling earlier earlier thank you and this is its title
01:57:38 earlier thank you and this is its title is ops news 30 highly insulated buildings
01:57:42 buildings can we turn to page three please
01:57:46 and we can see there in the version control table first version created by nick markwell who we
01:57:53 who we were discussing earlier on 14th of october 2015 version two 10th of october 2019 final draft for closed down
01:58:05 for closed down now are those dates the best of your knowledge correct yes now can we turn to page 4 and box 1.4
01:58:17 that box is entitled tcap stakeholder group members no one is identified there from the training department do you know why
01:58:29 do you know why no and there would have been someone from the training department there you wouldn't have a stakeholder group without someone from that department i'd imagine that would have been mr markwell
01:58:41 that would have been mr markwell the author
01:58:44 so i don't know whether now is nm
01:58:49 nm that's
01:58:50 that's uh well there's only one letter there yeah i know if don't speculate mister but if we can look at uh books 1.5 there's no subject matter expert either
01:59:02 there's no subject matter expert either are you able to help us as to why there's no sme identified because mr goodall and mr spooner would have been the subject matter experts so not applicable
01:59:13 so not applicable uh is not strictly accurate there correct now at the bottom of this page the background context given the tcap is is set out thus the key thrust of the ops news 30
01:59:25 the key thrust of the ops news 30 article and package is that firefighters should be aware of the implication on their firefighting tactics of the increasing use of highly insulated sealed compartments fire development in these compartments
01:59:38 fire development in these compartments and the hazards associated with modern methods of construction the article and package should highlight a number of key concerns and developments relating to modern methods of gave the page construction
01:59:51 of gave the page construction and signpost the new improved modern methods of constructed cpt package the emphasis in the cbt package should be on the implications spelling is correct modern methods of construction for
02:00:03 modern methods of construction for firefighting tactics this should be in greater depth than currently exist in training package it is not sufficient to talk about rapid fire spread and or unusual fire spread through voids
02:00:15 unusual fire spread through voids cavities etc a short question who drafted that text i would imagine that would have been mr markwell in consultation with the commissioning
02:00:27 consultation with the commissioning department the final sentence explicit expressly contends that current training packages were not sufficient is that a view with which you'd agree
02:00:39 which you'd agree um
02:00:41 um i i couldn't say um you'd never directed yourself to form a view on the subject right if mr marquel were the author is would his view on the subject be something you'd accept no it would be
02:00:52 something you'd accept no it would be the commissioning department okay
02:00:58 now in terms of what your department was being told that training needed to achieve
02:01:02 achieve we can find this on page 7 within box 4.1
02:01:10 and that
02:01:11 that box sets out in depth the requirements of the cbt package itself now i don't ask you to read that but can you help us um was that text likely to have come
02:01:23 um was that text likely to have come from the commissioning department as well
02:01:26 well yes
02:01:28 yes now looking at this page we can see from the bottom that firefighters up to the rank of group managers we're due to be trained on this topic and the package was to be delivered in december 2015 to coincide with the
02:01:41 december 2015 to coincide with the release of operational news edition 30 in january 2016. um
02:01:46 um can you help us in the first instance it may well be the answers pregnant from some of the previous answers why is training limited to level one and level two is it because they're the most likely to have attended an incident yes
02:01:59 likely to have attended an incident yes is there a reason why a self-study package could not have been provided to all senior staff i.e above the rank of group manager up to ac no not at all would that have been do you know whether
02:02:11 would that have been do you know whether that possibility was considered uh i'd i couldn't say i don't know is it unlikely because of the likelihood of level one and two instant commanders
02:02:22 of level one and two instant commanders attend yeah it's unlikely now the tcaps progression um was discussed by odcb on the 31st of march 2016.
02:02:31 2016. and so we're now a year after the issue was first raised and we can see this from the minutes that lfb triple zero four zero seven double one
02:02:48 uh we can see that you attended
02:02:52 now in relation to highly insulated buildings training package we can see a number of updates if we can turn first of all to item two and the impd three monthly report
02:03:05 three monthly report and the highly high insulation buildings is the first and list of updates and it says a note to be circulated reference the currently situation around the training package
02:03:20 now the inquiry has been unable to locate a copy of that note but if we turn over the page to page 2 and look at item four
02:03:31 we see dynamic and intelligent operational training and procedures update
02:03:37 update and if we look at roman three that reads thus fire in highly insulated buildings is a computer cbt package which has been developed but not gone
02:03:48 which has been developed but not gone live yet due to it issues it was confirmed that the it solution lays with lfb and it was hoped that these issues will be resolved with the i.t rollout that is expected to begin in
02:04:02 i.t rollout that is expected to begin in may
02:04:03 may and we see in the left-hand column that those responsible for actioning this were the director of safety insurance who is danny cotton the head of training you director of operations dave brown
02:04:15 director of operations dave brown and the head of fire stations which is dominic ellis is that right yes
02:04:20 yes now all that was an extremely long run up to a short question what was your role in the development of the training package and by you i mean the training department
02:04:31 the training department yet again it would be in program management of that package content would have been provided by a commissioning department could we go back to the relevant tcap form which can be found at lfb 00102213
02:04:47 forward slash 16.
02:05:00 now if that could be expanded
02:05:07 and apologies again this is a retrospective update that was added in october 2019 so
02:05:16 so two and a bit years after the grenfell fire i'm sorry it's a long passage but it's probably useful if i go through it for those following the proceedings it says the training relating to this tcap was commissioned as part of ops
02:05:27 tcap was commissioned as part of ops news 30 which was released in january 2016.
02:05:32 2016. however due to the issues detailed below it could not be released the brigade changed from using internet explorer 8 to internet explorer 11 in
02:05:43 explorer 8 to internet explorer 11 in january 2015. this caused significant disruption to the functionality of the big learning online training portal when the big learning is used with internet explorer 11 it does not record
02:05:55 internet explorer 11 it does not record the progress that the user has made or the completion of the package that has been undertaken there are also issues with the packages loading correctly this was compounded by the fact that the
02:06:06 this was compounded by the fact that the ict department could only support a 2 mb internet link at many stations which meant that packages with digital images were not able to run correctly
02:06:17 were not able to run correctly the training relating to this tcap was ready to be piloted by january of 2016 but due to the issues detailed above the package would not function correctly was therefore could not be released the
02:06:30 therefore could not be released the following message was sent by sent from ac dominic ellis in april 2016. operational news 30 fires in highly insulated buildings and then it goes on
02:06:42 insulated buildings and then it goes on to explain the position again now can we deal first with this question of the issue of packages not recording progress or completion and
02:06:53 and if we can look at the wording of the update in the tcap which said the brigade had moved from internet explorer 8 to 11 that caused disruption is it right that a user can log in to
02:07:05 is it right that a user can log in to the big learning portal and take or retake computer-based training packages at any time yes if the problem with the big learning portal
02:07:17 portal if the problem was with that would that have affected all other training packages at the time if it contained video i believe the issue is around video video rather than
02:07:28 issue is around video video rather than any other form of image
02:07:34 i believe there's about six packages that were affected
02:07:40 did the lfb consider using workaround solutions so for example um a different browser to allow videos to be played
02:07:50 no but i know that there was a fix there was a temporary fix that was considered but unfortunately that didn't resolve the situation either was it possible to return to internet explorer eight for
02:08:02 return to internet explorer eight for these purposes um no i believe there was an issue with the license so it was going to be discontinued
02:08:11 so no that that couldn't happen would it have been possible for individual watchers to record manually or on paper the fact that they'd completed the exercise
02:08:24 yes i think that could have been yeah yeah
02:08:26 yeah and that could have been submitted either to your department or to whoever yeah
02:08:31 yeah do you remember whether that option was discussed at the time i don't recall that being discussed now turning to the second issue of packages loading and displaying uh
02:08:41 uh images correctly um by digital images i think although the tcap refers to that phrase the problem with videos it
02:08:53 now can we go to an email um sent by peter cowop to his operational policy team um it's lfb0098135
02:09:12 now this was sent as you can see from the top i hope 16th of june 2014 you are not copied in and we can see that he says all please see blur a quick update on key issues
02:09:24 see blur a quick update on key issues arising for op from today's odcb and if we look at the third item in his list he says there are continuing technical issues with including video and training packages which will be
02:09:36 and training packages which will be fully resolved in medium term by upgrading bandwidth to stations and replacing is it wise terminals yes hq in the meantime if babcock adhere to it's video formatting guidance etc video
02:09:50 it's video formatting guidance etc video should work but not with a hundred percent reliability for senior officers a simple solution is to watch anything with video at home via remote access where bandwidth etc won't be a problem
02:10:02 where bandwidth etc won't be a problem both of the technical upgrades that are required are currently scheduled for early 2015 but this work may be brought forward as both are relatively straightforward and not massively costly
02:10:14 not massively costly can you help us what happened to the quote straightforward close quotes upgrade scheduled for early 2015. so this was fix that was
02:10:25 so this was fix that was being
02:10:27 being prepared
02:10:28 prepared once it was introduced it worked in the headquarters environment it didn't work at fire stations that goes back to bandwidth so
02:10:38 so officers could complete that at headquarters where the bandwidth was was greater than it was at stations um
02:10:45 um gary reason was your director until january 2015 did you discuss these problems with him and what workarounds were achievable um certainly would have uh discussed this
02:10:57 certainly would have uh discussed this with my line manager at the time this was topic of repeated discussion at the performance and commissioning board meeting now if we can go to odcb meeting minutes
02:11:10 now if we can go to odcb meeting minutes from march 2016
02:11:13 this issue comes up again just following on from the point you've just made and if we go to lfb trouble zero four zero seven double one
02:11:29 and if we can see under item four
02:11:33 on page two
02:11:39 thank you dynamic and intelligent operational training procedures update and we look at roman numeral three it's reported that fire in highly insulated buildings is a computer cbt
02:11:50 insulated buildings is a computer cbt package which has been developed but not gone live yet due to i.t issues it was confirmed that the i.t solution lays with lfb there's hope that these issues will be resolved the it rollout is
02:12:02 will be resolved the it rollout is expected to begin in may so that's may 2016.
02:12:06 2016. and can you help us what it rollout was expected in may 2016. yeah so that's that's the entry and fix in terms of the internet portal
02:12:17 and fix in terms of the internet portal and
02:12:18 and what happened to that rollout it
02:12:21 it happened but it didn't fix the problem um
02:12:28 would you have been able to get around this perpetual problem by instructing babcock not to include videos in the training package yes could have done that um
02:12:39 yes could have done that um i have a recollection but i can't i try to find documents to substantiate this but i can i can recall having discussions um whether we could
02:12:51 discussions um whether we could produce a separate package without the videos
02:12:55 videos but my recollection was that that was dismissed by the commissioning department on the basis that the video components helped to take the individuals through the
02:13:06 take the individuals through the learning
02:13:07 learning and there was a danger if you just issued
02:13:10 issued the documents without that sort of accompanying explanation
02:13:18 there was a risk that
02:13:20 that they weren't following information correctly that could be just as much of a risk of not doing something could the videos have been recorded on a cd for example and center stations certainly did that for
02:13:32 certainly did that for another piece of training yes but not for this one no did anyone suggest the use of cds no
02:13:39 no but it was another option that could have worked and avoided the problem we certainly did that for another piece of training yes and it's not expensive either presumably
02:13:51 if cds have been used or the instruction not to use videos whilst perhaps not ideal or optimal
02:14:02 whilst perhaps not ideal or optimal would you agree that opting one of those approaches would have meant that crews would have received risk critical training
02:14:08 training far sooner in relation to rapid fire spread in the modern built environment yes i accept that
02:14:15 and there's no reasonably practical reason for for example cds to be sent
02:14:23 [Music] could we look at the content of the buildings package itself and if we could go to bab quadruple zero double zero one six
02:14:46 and here we go you can see at the front core skills and highly insulated buildings if we go to page three
02:14:55 the slide could be amplified
02:15:02 as far as we can go you can see the packages aims and objectives the aim was to increase awareness of highly insulated compartments and associated operational considerations objectives the first one describe how
02:15:14 objectives the first one describe how highly insulated compartments impact on firefighting techniques and strategies
02:15:22 and then penultimate one outline what best practice should look like at an incident with a highly insulated compartment and then if we go onto page seven
02:15:33 we see the start of a number of slides on modern methods of construction and the first one here is thermal insulation boards
02:15:43 if we go onto page nine
02:15:48 we see here that a warning is given to delegates roughly halfway down the page retrospective fitting a building should not be judged by its facade
02:15:57 facade older buildings are commonly retrofitted with new construction materials and technology when carrying out a 72d a detailed site-specific plan must be developed
02:16:08 developed now the inquiry has a copy of the trining training guide uh prepared to accompany this watch-based package and if we could look at that which is at quad bab quadruple zero double zero
02:16:19 quad bab quadruple zero double zero three eight
02:16:28 there we go what's the intention of these guys to explain how packages should be presented to staff yeah yes who would typically present these guides um these packages sorry yep so this
02:16:40 um these packages sorry yep so this would have been the watch manager no
02:16:45 no so someone of someone like michael dad yes and if we can go to page 20 within this document we see the following text it can come up
02:16:58 read the following text to the watch so it's directional the effectiveness of compartmentation relies on good workmanship and installation in it being a good state of repair failure to seal gaps and voids
02:17:11 repair failure to seal gaps and voids reduces the fire stopping element of construction and can contribute to the unseen spread of smoke fire from one compartment to another looking at that how common was it for
02:17:22 looking at that how common was it for technical information like that to be
02:17:25 to be provided to watch managers to read out to their crews that was common um can we go back now to the tcap form itself which is lfb double zero one zero
02:17:39 itself which is lfb double zero one zero double two one three forward slash five
02:17:49 and the final three lines of the box if it can be expanded thank you the emphasis in the cbt package should be on the implications of modern methods
02:18:00 be on the implications of modern methods of construction for firefighting tactics and it says this should be in greater depth and currently exist in training it is not sufficient to talk about rapid fire spread and or unusual fire spread
02:18:11 fire spread and or unusual fire spread through voids cavities etc um
02:18:15 um are you able to assist or would you agree
02:18:18 agree that the training department knew that this training was not replicated in other training packages
02:18:25 i would take from that that was the case yes
02:18:30 and that absence made the timely and swift dissemination of this training all the more important yes and that was a factor that ought to
02:18:41 and that was a factor that ought to attracted greater weight when considering workarounds when faced with the i.t problems
02:18:50 did anyone raise that concern when these matters were being debated yeah i mean the issue with the i.t delay and solution
02:18:58 solution was that each time we thought we were there
02:19:02 there and so it would be oh there's no point going back to the drawing board because the solution will be resolved within the next couple of months but obviously that wasn't the case
02:19:16 now can i turn to a distinct but closely related topic and that's the updates that were necessary necessitated by the operational news article um on fires in highly insulated
02:19:28 article um on fires in highly insulated buildings and if we can go to lfb trouble zero double eight nine double zero forward slash four
02:19:46 and we can see there that changes are identified for firefighter development breathing apparatus and real fire
02:19:57 breathing apparatus and real fire and instant command at sea now in respect of the instant command changes
02:20:02 changes the report stated in the third paragraph on this page instant scenarios are being created for the rollout of the new ic training across levels one to three
02:20:14 across levels one to three the injects for a range of these scenarios would include hazards and signs associated with highly insulated buildings the content of the article will be raised by trainers during the delivery of current instant command
02:20:26 delivery of current instant command training
02:20:28 training now we've seen no evidence to indicate that the lessons underlying the highly insulated buildings package were included in the new instant command training packages
02:20:39 training packages or alternatively that injects were developed specifically dealing with these issues so the first question is do you
02:20:49 do you can you assist the inquiry on what work if any was done to incorporate those matters into the new instant command courses i can't assist you with that i'm sorry
02:21:00 sorry who would be able to assist us on answering that question um someone from the commissioning department for instant command so peter cowops department yeah
02:21:16 i now want to turn on to a separate topic
02:21:19 topic and that's the links between operational training
02:21:23 training and fire safety department now
02:21:27 now you will be aware the inquiries heard evidence
02:21:30 evidence that suggests the risks of rapid fire spread on external wards facades were known to the lfb's fire safety department for some time before 2017. that issue
02:21:41 that issue in its detail would be explored with other witnesses but i want to ask what contribution if any did the fire safety or the fire engineering departments at the lfb
02:21:52 engineering departments at the lfb make to operational training on those issues
02:21:55 issues um
02:21:56 um looking at the the tcap they're not a stakeholder so i suggest they weren't involved
02:22:07 from your perspective of training would someone in your experience from the operational procedures department have communicated to someone in the fire safety fire
02:22:18 to someone in the fire safety fire engineering department to discuss the substance of any revisions to training on for example how to deal with highly insulated buildings in a fire yeah i i can say that for other pieces of
02:22:30 can say that for other pieces of training then we would have had a representative from the fire safety department as part of the stakeholder group
02:22:37 group on this one there wasn't it's not listed as such so then no are you able to help us understand as to why no one from fire safety or fire engineering was
02:22:48 fire safety or fire engineering was there no i i can't i'm sorry
02:22:53 now we've only been able to identify one item of operational training relating to fire safety and the power point that we've identified i'll put it up on the screen for you is lfb
02:23:04 for you is lfb trouble zero three six double two three
02:23:10 now it's training the name is fire safety training for station personnel the powerpoint is dated the 11th of april 2017 so broad terms two months before the grenfell fire
02:23:22 before the grenfell fire have you seen this powerpoint slide before yes
02:23:27 can you remember when was it as part of its drafting process or when it was signed off and published so this was part of
02:23:35 part of a team briefing it went out to all staff to deliver over an 18-month period so i remember the presentation being
02:23:46 the presentation being available um not necessarily having gone through it in detail
02:23:51 in detail what prompted uh the need to circulate this
02:23:56 this slideshow was it the article in operational news i don't recall that i think there was um there was discussions i think this was commissioned by
02:24:07 commissioned by uh ac dan daley i'm not 100 sure but he felt that there hadn't been any specific fire safety training as it says there for a significant period of time
02:24:19 there for a significant period of time so he commissioned that now we'll come on to that um the lfb's uh legal team said to us that quotes this is the only operational fire safety package at the time of the grenfell tower fire
02:24:31 time of the grenfell tower fire so far as we are aware and as you've picked up on the speaker notes um make the point in the first sentence and i quote this is the first fire safety training for over 10
02:24:42 training for over 10 years
02:24:45 had you or any other department within the lfb and by you i mean the training department identified previously a need for revised fire
02:24:56 previously a need for revised fire safety training training no but there was other fire safety training but it wasn't necessarily face-to-face input so there was there were some ops news
02:25:08 so there was there were some ops news around 72d visits there's also around home fire safety visits
02:25:14 visits so this was the first face-to-face input so there had been other training inputs an attempt to deal with the issue comprehensively presumably there was they were thematic around
02:25:26 there was they were thematic around specific areas these section 72d home safety visits they're aspects of but not a complete review of fire safety correct
02:25:37 correct now can we go to the september 2019 ribbon star report which we've been looking at that's lfb uh trouble zero six double seven eight six
02:25:49 and this uh aspect of it considered the fire safety department and if we go to page 37
02:25:59 and if we look at the second paragraph the author said this whilst there are clear signs that the fire safety department is taking steps to provide training and development opportunities for staff engaged across
02:26:11 opportunities for staff engaged across each of its teams there appears to be a lack of engagement between the department and the head of training and personal development that's you that's right
02:26:20 right can you help us as to why in september 2019
02:26:24 2019 there was
02:26:25 there was a lack of engagement between you and the fire safety department yeah this this isn't uh
02:26:32 isn't uh i would say totally accurate so we did have a member of staff one of those project managers within my department who specifically uh liaised with fire
02:26:43 who specifically uh liaised with fire safety departments so there's counterpart and fire safety so whilst there wasn't necessarily engagement with myself and the head of fire safety there was their project
02:26:54 fire safety there was their project management and their counterpart and most of the fire safety training at that point was through uh outsource training to and a different contractor to babcock so our
02:27:07 a different contractor to babcock so our involvement was predominantly around contractual management you said in the opening line of your answers to that question it wasn't totally accurate now
02:27:18 now you've set out the elements with which you disagree where do you agree with the author of the ribbond report on the lack of engagement between training and the fire safety department yep so
02:27:31 safety department yep so in terms of the commissioning process um
02:27:36 um there wasn't as close a working relationship between my department and fire safety as there was for example with ops policy and assurance
02:27:50 had the fact and seriousness of the grenfell fire in june 2017 had that acted as a trigger or a spur to greater engagement between your department and fire safety yes
02:28:02 department and fire safety yes and what
02:28:04 and what when did you decide that further engagement was required and what was done to make good the deficiencies you identified yep so myself and the head of fire safety
02:28:16 fire safety said that we need to have more to have regular meetings to specifically look at training in the area of fire safety if you call earlier there was specific
02:28:27 if you call earlier there was specific one-to-ones with my department and ops policy and insurance we
02:28:32 we introduced that between ourselves and fire safety and when did you have that discussion with your counterpart at fire safety
02:28:41 i can't remember i can't recall an exact time frame but it would have been after the the fire in the immediate aftermath or in months afterwards [Music]
02:28:52 [Music] um i want to say it was within the next three months but i can't i can't say that confidently
02:29:03 confidently can i now turn on to a separate uh issue which is communications training yes
02:29:09 yes and uh you'll be sure to know this is the last substantive topic in my questions i want to cover with you okay and it's really the lfb's training on radio and other communications equipment
02:29:21 radio and other communications equipment and for this purpose can we start with your second witness statement to the inquiry which can be found at lfb00102138
02:29:30 forward slash 57
02:29:37 now
02:29:40 basically here you set out a request from us to the lfb asking for policies training or other brigade disseminated materials in place
02:29:51 in place as at the 14th of june uh 2017. i should say the request is dealt with below paragraph 114
02:30:02 and that request related to first of all the use of radios or other communications equipment particularly in high-rise buildings and any planning or preparations for the same and turning over the page
02:30:13 and turning over the page any materials which identify and or consider the possible difficulties with or failures of communications equipment in operational environments and how such problems may
02:30:24 environments and how such problems may be overcome or mitigated now we can see a paragraph 115 of your statement
02:30:31 statement you said this i am able to respond to this request in respect of training the following training is provided as part of the firefighter development course now the firefighter development course
02:30:42 now the firefighter development course is the training provided to a trainee firefighter upon entry to the brigade is that right it is does it follow then that at the time of the grenfell fire there was no radio communications
02:30:53 there was no radio communications training for firefighters beyond their original initial training there was nothing specific um but as i mentioned earlier it was available
02:31:04 earlier it was available for individuals to read but there wasn't a specific uh training requirement now you list over the next page few pages following paragraph 115. 115 a number of courses
02:31:16 a number of courses and we can see at the bottom of page telemetry
02:31:19 telemetry and if we can just skip over the page to give everyone an idea of the answer you deal with at page 59 communications equipment and search and
02:31:30 communications equipment and search and rescue comms we turn over the page to page 60.
02:31:35 where is guidance if we turn over the page or sorry ba entry control
02:31:44 if we turn over the page again to 62 emergency procedures and va communications equipment turn over the page again instant command and firefighting in
02:31:56 instant command and firefighting in basements and find it page 64.
02:32:01 we come this headline has been cut off but it's op 007 high rise procedure and op 015 fixed installations now is it right
02:32:13 now is it right to say that these packages deal with communications available to crews and that basic operation correct is it also right to say that none of these
02:32:23 these materials provide firefighters with comprehensive training on how to optimize communications that's correct equally they do not provide firefighters with training on
02:32:35 provide firefighters with training on how to overcome a total communications failure that's correct now we looked at op 07 earlier today and if we could look at
02:32:46 and if we could look at that particular package again and it's a bab
02:32:49 bab quadruple zero double zero seven two
02:33:01 and if we can turn to page four
02:33:06 and under the second blue heading communication difficulties it says this the design of a high-rise building and the potential distance between the incident commander and the scene of
02:33:18 incident commander and the scene of operations can result in communication difficulties
02:33:23 is it right to say therefore that the lfb did not provide any training on why those difficulties occur or how to overcome them in high-rise buildings that's fair to say yes
02:33:36 that's fair to say yes and i also correct in saying that only edba whereas that's extended duration breathing apparatus whereas we're given practical training on how to deploy radio repeaters and leaky feeders that's
02:33:48 radio repeaters and leaky feeders that's right
02:33:49 right yes
02:33:53 can we now turn to a separate topic and that is tcap0039 on communications following lachlan now for this purpose can we go back to your second witness statement which can
02:34:05 your second witness statement which can be found at lfb double zero one zero two one three eight forward slash six four
02:34:17 now paragraph 128 in the bottom third of that page
02:34:21 that page you say this the brigade issued two radio communication training support packages aimed at senior officers and station based staff as part of operational news 36 dated february 2019
02:34:35 operational news 36 dated february 2019 the training packages cover radio equipment and usage and messages now we can turn to operational news number 36 at lfb trouble zero eight four zero double
02:34:47 trouble zero eight four zero double eight
02:34:54 and if we turn to page five
02:35:02 we see there the article headed communications and if that right-hand part of the page could be expanded and we see there the text underneath the
02:35:13 we see there the text underneath the photo says this communications are critical at instance and due to recent updates packages have been developed and then it goes on to explain
02:35:25 and then it goes on to explain what those updates are and the aim of the training now are you familiar with tcap2039 which was intended to develop radio and communications equipment after lagnal
02:35:37 communications equipment after lagnal yes i'm aware of it and it's training in relation to those matters i should say it's concerned with um
02:35:44 um i don't have to refresh my memory okay we'll go
02:35:47 we'll go i'm just slightly mindful of the time sorry um but in senseless probably have time to complete this but if we go to tcap form four double zero three nine which is lfb
02:36:00 four double zero three nine which is lfb quadruple zero four seven two nine and go to page seven
02:36:14 we can see in the background context box at the bottom that can be expanded
02:36:21 and it says there with the introduction of new radios it has been identified that there is a training need to ensure all operational personnel have the knowledge and understanding to use authority issued radio communications equipment in accordance
02:36:33 communications equipment in accordance brigade policy to ensure effective communications at instance this training will cover handheld radios with associated equipment and airwave main scheme both appliance and senior officer
02:36:44 scheme both appliance and senior officer radios does that jog your memory that's concerned with training yes if we can go forward in this tcap form to page 11 and box 5.1
02:37:02 that could be expanded we can see that knowledge requirements are listed for both station based operational staff in the first
02:37:09 the first substantive paragraph and below them senior officers is that right yes now bearing those matters in mind can we turn to the black male house incident assurance
02:37:20 black male house incident assurance review report which we looked at earlier today which is lfb quadruple zero four eight zero one forward slash thirty
02:37:44 and if we can see in relation to coroner's recommendation number five in the bottom left-hand corner if that can be expanded it says this under the heading of communications it is recommended that
02:37:56 communications it is recommended that brigade consider whether it be beneficial
02:38:01 to use additional breathing apparatus radio communications channels and personal radio channels at major instance to reduce the amount of traffic on each channel and then the review then explains that
02:38:12 and then the review then explains that while the lfb rejected this recommendation it committed to undertake some additional instant communications familiarization training which is detailed in action 5a below did
02:38:24 which is detailed in action 5a below did that accord with your recollection it does yes and if we look at if we can de-expand sorry to use a an elegant phrase if we look at action 5a
02:38:35 5a which is the consequential action
02:38:39 action which says engage with the brigade training provider to ensure that issues related to instant communications are embedded within current operational training
02:38:48 training we see there it says this a training commissioning document has been drafted that required the development of a new training solution aimed at ensuring operational staff have the knowledge and understanding to use
02:39:00 the knowledge and understanding to use authority issued radio communications equipment including handheld radios and airwave main scheme radios computer-based training packages station-based staff firefighter to watch
02:39:11 station-based staff firefighter to watch manager and senior officers station manager and above were signed off in may 2015 however the training packages have not yet been released do you know why those packages had not
02:39:23 do you know why those packages had not been released the same reasons as we've been discussing for the high-rise building it's linked to issues around i.t and again the workaround by cds was not
02:39:37 and again the workaround by cds was not considered wasn't no even though that was a reasonably practical thing to do yep
02:39:44 um so we are slightly early it is 20 past four
02:39:49 past four um i got through more of the question than i'd anticipated but i don't think i'll be able to feel uh finish uh or feel comfortable about finishing mr gross's evidence this evening
02:40:01 gross's evidence this evening so would you rather stop at that point i think it would be best i suspect mr groves has had a long day in the box and would welcome a break even that requires him to turn up briefly uh for the morning session
02:40:12 up briefly uh for the morning session tomorrow so with your permission sir well just help our son mr groves how long do you think you might need with him tomorrow um to complete the prepared questions and any further ones that
02:40:24 questions and any further ones that occur to me overnight half an hour or so we'd then have the break to see whether any other questions well i think probably mr groves you'd like to know that even with these contingencies
02:40:36 that even with these contingencies we can be pretty confident about finishing you probably well before lunch tomorrow but certainly by lunch so that if that helps you plan your day thank you there you are thank you very much is that fair
02:40:47 are thank you very much is that fair enough mr
02:40:48 enough mr it's fair enough so we're taking steps to see what can be done to bring witnesses forward so yes well that's right all right well um we've obviously made very good progress so we'll stop a little early this afternoon
02:40:59 little early this afternoon we'll i'm afraid i have to ask you to come back tomorrow as i indicated so we'll resume please at 10 o'clock tomorrow
02:41:07 tomorrow um and look forward to seeing you then and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence uh over overnight okay all right thank you very much indeed thank you
02:41:26 all right thank you mr kenya 10 o'clock tomorrow