London Fire Brigade Evidence - Wednesday 22nd September 2021 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:20:43 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing

00:20:47 hearing we're going to begin today by hearing further evidence from mr peter groves of the lfb

00:20:53 the lfb so could i ask please mr groves to be brought back in

00:21:09 good morning mr grace good morning ready to carry on i am indeed thank you thank you very much well when you're ready mr canelo thank you good morning mr crows good morning um yesterday

00:21:20 mr crows good morning um yesterday afternoon when we broke we were discussing communications and that's a topic to which i'd like to return this morning now we have a copy of station based radio equipment training package at lfb

00:21:32 radio equipment training package at lfb double zero one double two eight four six

00:21:36 six excuse me

00:21:39 there we go and if we can turn to page two

00:21:44 two we can see the four objectives of this station based training session are set out there

00:21:49 out there namely

00:21:50 namely list the range of radio equipment used operationally within the lfb describe the function of the radio equipment

00:21:58 equipment select radio equipment appropriate for use in operational scenarios demonstrate the assembly and use of barry that's b-a-r-i-e radio equipment

00:22:09 barry that's b-a-r-i-e radio equipment the package then goes on to describe key items of communications equipment and for example can we turn to page 14

00:22:21 where it describes barry equipment if we go to page 20

00:22:31 there is a description of radio repeater capability and if we turn over to page 21

00:22:40 it sets out the availability of repeaters

00:22:43 repeaters but that is the totality of the guidance and advice given on the topic of radio repeaters

00:22:52 i've only taken you to a number of those slides but if you'd like to see more of them please say so but would you accept on the basis of your previous knowledge and what i've shown you this morning that the package

00:23:03 shown you this morning that the package contained only a basic description of the lfb's communications equipment yes i'd agree with that what it doesn't do is instruct crews about the difficulties

00:23:16 is instruct crews about the difficulties that may be encountered in relation to communications when fighting fires in high-rise buildings would that be something you also accept based on what i've seen yes

00:23:27 based on what i've seen yes and indeed those were the problems that had in fact been encountered at lachnal would you agree with that i agree and so the package itself doesn't meet or address the communications issues they're

00:23:38 communications issues they're experienced at lachnal is that a fair proposition i think that's fair thank you

00:23:44 you and would you accept that this package also

00:23:47 also does not provide guidance or teach crews about

00:23:51 about wholesale loss of communications and what to do when faced with that eventuality would you agree with that i'd agree with that based on what i've seen yes

00:24:00 seen yes can we turn now to the senior officer package which can be found at lfb double zero one two eight double four

00:24:11 and if we can turn to page three we should see the objectives of the package which are again fourfold first to describe the functions and use of the analog handheld radio radio

00:24:24 of the analog handheld radio radio repeater and digital main scheme radio secondly describes situations where interagency voice communications and procedures can be used and how it would be implemented

00:24:36 be implemented thirdly identify and find solutions for radio communication issues and finally apply your knowledge of how radio equipment can be used to an exercise scenario

00:24:47 exercise scenario now if i can give you a flavor of the slides again first of all if we could turn to page 23

00:24:56 if that could be expanded we see here a slide which says under the heading communication issues and solutions a text which says this large and complex buildings or underground structures may adversely

00:25:09 underground structures may adversely affect radio communications would you accept that that is not an adequate or complete way of instructing senior officers about the way in which high-rise materials such as concrete and

00:25:21 high-rise materials such as concrete and metal can destruct radio signals for example it doesn't specifically say that so i agree with you if we can go on and look at a number of other slides can we go back and in the

00:25:33 go back and in the slideshow to page 17

00:25:40 and here we go here we have rather an explanation of the functionality of a repeater and leaky feeders i'll just let you read the text

00:25:56 would you accept there's no distinction made there between radio repeaters and telemetry repeaters i'd accept that yes and so on the basis of this package would you accept that there was a

00:26:07 would you accept that there was a failure to train senior officers at least on that important distinction based on what you've sent me yes i agree with that

00:26:17 with that can we go to a separate document now which is a witness statement of greg ashman

00:26:22 ashman his statement can be found at lfb00102269

00:26:35 and if we can turn to page three and paragraph 12.

00:26:41 and what he says there i should say greg ashman i'm assuming is a name known to you he's an employee of the lfb yeah he's known to me yes did you have many dealings with him during your time as head of training

00:26:53 as head of training very limited what he says in paragraph 12 is this in a number of witness statements provided by lfb personnel to the mps that's the metropolitan police service

00:27:04 that's the metropolitan police service the assertion is made that ray j repeaters were deployed at the grenfell tower fire however there is no evidence which the lfb has been able to derive from the cctv review

00:27:15 cctv review to substantiate these assertions the personnel who provided these statements have mistaken telemetry repeaters for radio repeaters now my question is a short one was it

00:27:26 now my question is a short one was it those events and the subsequent discovery that tcap0039

00:27:32 tcap0039 had not been delivered to staff before the fire

00:27:35 the fire that resulted in the delivery of radio related training packages to staff in february 2019. sorry i can't i can't answer that i don't know do you know who would be able to answer

00:27:47 do you know who would be able to answer that question uh potentially would be the head of ops policy i believe you'll see mr cowell at some point another one for mr carrup

00:27:58 at some point another one for mr carrup yes

00:28:00 yes and i think i'm right in saying he would have been imposed in february 2019 yes

00:28:06 yes yes

00:28:07 yes now in light of that answer i've come to a swifter end to my prepared questions than i'd anticipated which uh apologies um those circumstances sir might i have the

00:28:18 those circumstances sir might i have the usual uh ten minutes um to review the state of place if there are any further matters yes well um mr groves i'm sorry we brought you in just for ten minutes worth of questioning it's okay could

00:28:30 worth of questioning it's okay could possibly have done that yesterday but we didn't know of course well it may be more

00:28:35 more of course there may be more questions but anyway here you are and um mr

00:28:41 mr kenya has been very economical and serve you so

00:28:44 you so we've reached the point at which we would normally have a short break so that

00:28:49 that mr kanir can check that he has actually asked you all the questions that he should have asked you and to enable others who aren't present here in the room to suggest further questions to be should be put to you

00:29:00 should be put to you do you think 10 minutes is enough mr canoe i think so right well what we'll do then we'll um break for 10 minutes we'll come back at 20 past 10

00:29:10 past 10 and we'll see then whether there are any more questions that we need to ask you and

00:29:16 and in the meantime please don't talk to anyone about your evidence if you'd like to go with the usher she'll look after you thank you

00:29:33 right so mr clear well i will we'll say 20 past if it turns out that you need more time someone can send us a message thank you very much

00:47:52 yes would you ask mr graves to come back in please

00:48:06 all right mr graves well i'm sorry we kept you waiting a bit longer than i suggested but we are now ready to find out whether there are more questions for you okay yes a few further questions for you mr groves um

00:48:17 groves um in evidence yesterday we discussed the nature of lfb's relationship with babcock

00:48:23 babcock and you mentioned that whilst initially babcock had been

00:48:29 proactive they later became passive now can i discuss with you first of all what was their extent of their initial proactivity and how did it manifest itself

00:48:40 and how did it manifest itself so at the start of the contract as i explained yesterday that you're going from a position where there was no training provider

00:48:51 there was no training provider to them coming in and having to produce their own training resource model their own trainers their own venues utilizing lfb equipment

00:49:02 utilizing lfb equipment so they were very um proactive within the first year to half year in the sense of getting themselves mobilized the design function took slightly longer

00:49:15 the design function took slightly longer to take place and i think there was a period where things

00:49:21 things became very sort of client and contractor relationship and so things were not moving as swiftly as

00:49:32 swiftly as both parties would would have liked now you referred to an evidence yesterday to encouraging babcock to deal more

00:49:42 deal more proactively and positively to knockbacks they received yes can you give the panel an idea of the type of knockbacks that babcock received presumably from the lfb you're talking about yes i mean one that comes to mind is around the use of

00:49:54 that comes to mind is around the use of driver simulators so the lfb sorry babcock have invested quite a bit of time and effort in designing a driving simulator approach

00:50:07 designing a driving simulator approach and had invested quite a bit of money in developing these simulators the lfb was not keen the commissioning department was not keen on sole use of

00:50:19 department was not keen on sole use of simulators understandably what they wanted was a theoretical input a practical input and simulated evidence

00:50:29 evidence uh

00:50:31 uh babcock i think um

00:50:35 i was going to say rolled over perhaps that's not the right terminology to use but um let's just say that they accepted the lfb's position a bit too quickly and

00:50:46 the lfb's position a bit too quickly and i think that they should have pushed back against that and were there a number of other instances where that dynamic was manifested no because um i think after that they

00:50:57 think after that they they became quite um reactive rather than proactive towards the end of my time with the lfb we had

00:51:08 we had spoken to them about using virtual reality training more and

00:51:13 and at the point that i was leaving they would be far more proactive in the world of using alternative training methodologies one point which has been raised is the

00:51:24 one point which has been raised is the it's really the question what importance do ui the training department uh place on simulation training given the lfb's frontline service nature i think simulator training is really important

00:51:36 simulator training is really important but it's not the the most important type of training in effect for each training solution that you look at you should look at on three different levels

00:51:48 look at on three different levels one would be is what's the theoretical input

00:51:51 input and invariably you would do that by means of a computer-based training solution

00:51:56 solution from there you would then look to see how can we simulate that and we're so to enable people to use the knowledge that they've acquired and put that in a safe environment

00:52:07 that in a safe environment and then ultimately put them into a real life situation where they can practice the theory and what they've done in the simulated environment thank you um also in evidence you

00:52:19 thank you um also in evidence you referred to numerous conversations with the babcock contract director yes um to make processes uh work better and more efficiently um who was the contract director with whom

00:52:30 who was the contract director with whom you were having discussions okay there were actually three up to the time of the uh incident so there was uh david

00:52:40 david anger

00:52:41 anger mark metcalfe and tony mchugh thank you can i turn now to other aspects of training and in your

00:52:52 other aspects of training and in your report on instant management data july 2013 and we don't need to go to it unless you'd like to see it it states that since there are now fewer fire incidents there is less opportunity

00:53:04 fire incidents there is less opportunity to undertake instant command roles just flowing on from the types of training that's useful so incident management training is important to ensure individual officers maintain skills in

00:53:15 individual officers maintain skills in that particular area now the question is why was the corollary not that more in-person i.e practical training was therefore required yes i think that's something that

00:53:27 yes i think that's something that i think that's a fair question and i think subsequently that's where the lfb moved to a position where they moved a more practical element within the instant command exercise and that's certainly

00:53:38 certainly it's

00:53:39 it's instant command courses and that's certainly what they've done in the latest suite of training thank you now in meeting minutes of the operational directorates coordination board on the

00:53:50 directorates coordination board on the 16th of june 2015 this is something we looked at yesterday it states that under the 10th of march 2004 in 2014 action point this

00:54:01 2004 in 2014 action point this ict need to improve links to stations for video as there is inconsistency in performance there is no budget for improvements the key question here is did a lack of

00:54:13 the key question here is did a lack of funds hamper effectiveness of training

00:54:20 i i wouldn't say in that situation i think what was more the problem was around governance

00:54:28 you mean by that so that so funds were available but they weren't always necessarily available within the training budget so there might be need to request additional budgets from like a

00:54:40 request additional budgets from like a transformation budget also if you were looking to increase the training budget and it was over a certain figure 150

00:54:51 over a certain figure 150 you had to go to the deputy mayor for approval so funds were there but they weren't always easily accessible thank you

00:55:00 thank you now again we don't need to go to it unless you would be grateful or need that assistance in your second witness statement to the inquiry you discussed the pilot process associated with tcap0124

00:55:12 tcap0124 and that was for people listening enhanced incident command training following lachnal recommendations the pilot was delivered on a number of occasions between 2014 and 2016 as we discussed yesterday

00:55:23 discussed yesterday in existing training courses and brigade and babcock representatives attended those courses and provided feedback

00:55:31 feedback now in those feedback forms one issue is consistently mentioned is that it wasn't clear what the training was trying to achieve um was that first of all a

00:55:42 achieve um was that first of all a concern which you shared if so what was done to address that concern um i have no recollection of that i'm afraid

00:55:53 if we go to lfb double zero one zero quadruple two

00:56:05 and there's five forms here i don't know whether you want to if we can just scan through them at a pace that allows you to read them

00:56:14 we turn over the page

00:56:25 and turn over the page please

00:56:37 if you indicate do you want to turn over the page again oh sorry yeah

00:56:42 yeah do you want me to look at a specific

00:56:45 specific comment um no well it's a general it's a general comment if you have no recollection of the concern if we go back a page skipped too quickly

00:56:59 and you see the so general comments you see box 4 detail and content the information supplied

00:57:16 it might be thought that the overall point that was being made was it wasn't clear what the training was trying to achieve

00:57:24 having briefly refresh your memory uh do you have any recollections of that being a pronounced concern or a concern that prompted further discussion at the time when you reviewed the feedback forms that

00:57:36 forms that i don't recall this bring being brought to my attention no and you don't remember any further discussions on that no i don't

00:57:53 i turn to one final matter and that is the people services review which was carried out in 2017 i think i'm right in saying and we can

00:58:04 i'm right in saying and we can go to the document lfb zero

00:58:08 zero eight three eight four five forward slash twenty seven

00:58:22 i'm trying to find because we haven't been given the assistance of a precise reference

00:58:28 reference but

00:58:29 but what i'm

00:58:30 what i'm the relevant extract is that the what it says is the bad contract is effectively delivering a central training program particularly in volume of attendance but it queried with the training

00:58:41 but it queried with the training assurance capability as its staff are professional and skilled to judge the generic quality of training and work effectively to hold the training provider to the right standards of facilities and trainer delivery however

00:58:52 facilities and trainer delivery however because they are not subject matter experts they are not always best placed to judge the content of some operational courses

00:59:00 courses this is something that will need to be resolved moving forwards to genuinely assure the quality of what the external training provider is delivering now that's at the bottom of that page

00:59:12 now that's at the bottom of that page the question is this that it would appear that in this people's service review which i think was carried out between april and december 2017 yep yeah um

00:59:22 um appears to be the first time that these issues have been understood is that a fair observation no that's not fair observation there were budget um growth bids put in

00:59:34 there were budget um growth bids put in previously to increase the size of the team

00:59:37 team and an explanation that ideally what you would like is a subject matter

00:59:43 matter expert in each of the training curricular areas

00:59:48 thank you um

00:59:50 um mr groves that is it i i'm pleased to say i hope um it's probably better to deal with these matters this morning rather than half or yesterday evening so i've asked for your in forgiveness and indulgence in that

01:00:02 in forgiveness and indulgence in that regard and that of the panel uh but the final thing i'd like to say is thank you very much for attending to give evidence and

01:00:08 and it's much appreciated thank you yes mr grove as well it's right that i should thank you on behalf of all the members of the panel for coming here to give your evidence it's been really useful to hear what you have to tell us

01:00:20 useful to hear what you have to tell us and so we're very grateful and and now it's all over you can go thank you very much thank you very much

01:00:34 thank you mr cleaner now um we do the next witness was originally asked to be available to give evidence tomorrow

01:00:42 tomorrow but i'm pleased to say that she's available today she may not be actually here at the moment but she is going to be uh able to start giving her evidence a little bit later

01:00:53 giving her evidence a little bit later this morning i think the best course because we need to do a little bit of housekeeping in any event don't we we do perhaps would be to have a a a bit of a break now and come back say

01:01:06 a a bit of a break now and come back say 11 15 by which time i think the witness will be here will have had a chance to

01:01:11 chance to settle in

01:01:12 settle in and um

01:01:15 and um then we can take our evidence the witness is here good but quarter past 11 probably gives enough time for her to settle down for people to make necessary arrangements the next witness right thank you very much thanks

01:01:26 witness right thank you very much thanks sir well with that in mind then we'll break now and we'll resume at 11 15. thank you very much

01:34:44 uh yes mr millett no we have another witness we do mr chairman uh i now call miss rita dexter please thank you

01:35:07 good morning mr dexter you're going to affirm i understand is that right yes well then the words should appear oh right you'll be given a hard copy that's fine could you read them out please i do solemnly sincerely and truly

01:35:19 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much no do sit down make yourself comfortable [Music]

01:35:30 [Music] there's some water there if you would like it

01:35:39 and

01:35:50 right when you're ready then yes mr millet mr chairman thank you mr dexter can i begin by thanking you very much for attending the inquiry today and for the next day also

01:36:02 today and for the next day also to help us with your evidence we're very grateful to you my questions are intended to be short and simple sometimes they are anything but and so if you don't understand the

01:36:14 and so if you don't understand the question or you would like me to repeat it

01:36:17 it then i can do that or i can put the question in a different way we are going to take scheduled breaks but if you feel you need a break at any other time then please just signal and we can we can take a break

01:36:28 we can we can take a break uh i should also ask you please to keep your voice up nice and clear so that those to your right can get down on the transcript very clearly what you're saying

01:36:39 saying also please don't nod or shake your head a yes or no it has to be because otherwise it won't get recorded now you've provided two witness statements to the inquiry you'll find them on the desk in front of you in hard

01:36:51 them on the desk in front of you in hard copy form

01:36:53 copy form but they will also appear on the screen in front of you so that others can see the contents of those statements and so will the documents to which we're going to go together

01:37:04 going to go together now your first witness statement was dated the 25th of january 2019 and if you go please to that it's at lfb3032363

01:37:19 is that your first witness statement of that date

01:37:22 that date yes it is and can you please go to page 15.

01:37:37 there's a signature there is that your signature it is uh and at page 16 if we just pick up the date of the uh 8th of february 2019 there

01:37:49 of the uh 8th of february 2019 there now can we please look at the second witness statement at lfb 3040773

01:38:00 is that your second witness statement of the 11th of march 2019 it is and again we see a signature under the statement of truth there is that your signature it is

01:38:10 is uh and there is an exhibit um rmd 9 to that witness statement i'll show it to you that is lfb3040774

01:38:21 can we please have that up

01:38:25 that is a 25-page submission that you made is this right unsolicited to the grenfell tower inquiry on the 15th of november 2017. that's correct and it was in respect of the inquiry's terms of

01:38:37 in respect of the inquiry's terms of reference yes

01:38:42 uh yes

01:38:44 yes i made a submission in response to the request for submissions in respect of the terms of reference for the inquiry

01:38:56 reference for the inquiry and i think i subsequently made a further submission which was once the terms of reference had been established is that this submission i think it's this is the latter rather than the former yes i see

01:39:07 former yes i see do you recognize it as your own yes yes have you read your witness statements and this november 2017 submission recently yes can you confirm that the contents of your statement statements

01:39:20 contents of your statement statements and this november 2017 submission are true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes and are you happy for them to stand all as your written evidence to the inquiry

01:39:31 as your written evidence to the inquiry i am

01:39:33 i am now your statements have a number of documents exhibited to them in addition to this rnd9 can i ask you have you recently reviewed those exhibits i have you have and have you discussed your

01:39:44 you have and have you discussed your evidence with anybody before coming here today with my legal team right now just by way of

01:39:51 by way of foretaste i should just tell you in a very broad la outline the topics that we're going to consider together the first is your professional background then we'll look at the role

01:40:03 background then we'll look at the role you performed at the lfb and then we'll be looking in detail at the operational directorates coordination board or the odcb and in particular the diopt or diot

01:40:16 and in particular the diopt or diot steps

01:40:18 steps and then we'll move on to fire safety as a general topic and look at some detail about that and the lachenal house working group in particular now

01:40:28 now can i start then with the first of those topics which is the professional background that you have in your witness statement you say if we can go to lfb3032363

01:40:41 this is your first statement you say

01:40:45 you say if we go to page two please paragraph five there

01:40:52 there that um before joining the lfb in 2001 you say i was deputy chief executive of a london borough council was that barnet

01:41:03 was that barnet yes uh and i uh you joined the lfb in 2001 as director of corporate services i think i did yes now other than the role of deputy commissioner did you ever

01:41:15 of deputy commissioner did you ever occupy any other role within the lfb uh director of corporate services other than that oh i'm sorry i was first director of corporate services and subsequently deputy commissioner right

01:41:26 subsequently deputy commissioner right so you went straight from one to the other yes and i think you were appointed to the role of deputy commissioner on the 10th of november 2009. that's correct and is it right that you held that position until the 31st of march 2015. yes and at

01:41:39 until the 31st of march 2015. yes and at that time you were made redundant i think correct yes yes now you say it at paragraph 5 of your statement which is on the screen in front of you in the fifth line that you were the first non-operational

01:41:51 that you were the first non-operational deputy commissioner of the lfb now by that do you mean that you didn't have any previous firefighting experience i do uh now in your 2017 uh submission

01:42:03 uh now in your 2017 uh submission if we just hand turn that up please lfb3040774

01:42:10 can we please look at the first paragraph on page one of that you say there

01:42:17 in the last three lines i was appointed for my strategic management strengths and in the light of my experience outside the fire service which was expected to enhance performance within the brigade because i would bring new

01:42:29 the brigade because i would bring new experience and perspectives what

01:42:33 what new experience and perspectives did the brigade want you to bring to the role

01:42:40 specifically i think working with outside bodies so for example the london boroughs so um a great deal of what the fire service

01:42:52 um a great deal of what the fire service in london needs to achieve is the product of working with others so the london boroughs the care quality commission and others

01:43:04 members were also members as in elected members so my appointment was as the result of a process

01:43:15 the result of a process led

01:43:16 led and determined by elected members of the authority but members wanted to see i think one of them described it as a an intelligence-led approach so during my time in london fire brigade there was a

01:43:31 time in london fire brigade there was a increasing emphasis on the importance of information and the use of that information in order to improve

01:43:39 improve uh performance so those are two examples that immediately come to mind but i guess also possibly my wider management experience so you

01:43:51 my wider management experience so you know the fact of not having spent all of my career in in the fire service but having worked first in birmingham city council then in the department of the environment and then in

01:44:02 the environment and then in in barnett council the experience which i'd gained in those organizations and the roles that i'd held

01:44:09 held were regarded as a strength and as providing me with experience which would be beneficial to the work of the brigade and in what ways were you

01:44:20 the brigade and in what ways were you expected to as you say here enhance the performance within the brigade

01:44:26 brigade just in brief

01:44:30 well for example in respect of community safety to increase the time spent on community fire safety activity as undertaken at fire stations

01:44:42 fire stations but also to improve the range and quality of relationships with outside bodies i've already mentioned the

01:44:52 care quality commission but there were others

01:44:56 others others too

01:44:58 to improve our performance uh as it were by reference to um individual incidents so in the case of

01:45:09 incidents so in the case of uh individual fire deaths in domestic dwellings where uh elderly or vulnerable people were involved i think one of the things one of the

01:45:20 think one of the things one of the things that i very specifically did was introduce

01:45:26 introduce measures and strategies for addressing those events in a more focused and forceful way and in particular feeding that back to the boroughs and

01:45:37 feeding that back to the boroughs and care providers so instead of as it were incidents being treated individually we began to bring together

01:45:48 we began to bring together as it were pictures or trends based on individual incidents including the fire deaths of elderly people and learn and implement some strategic lessons

01:45:59 lessons as a result of those when you joined the lfb in 2001 having joined did you become aware of the particular problem or problems that you had been appointed to solve was

01:46:12 you had been appointed to solve was there a particular problem that your appointment was supposed to address um no i wouldn't say that was the case when i joined in 2001 it was a new

01:46:23 when i joined in 2001 it was a new structure

01:46:25 structure so it wasn't the case that i was taking over the role from somebody else for example who might have been thought to have

01:46:31 have for example underperformed that's not what what was happening it was an entirely new structure with a rearrangement of functions within the brigade

01:46:42 brigade but i think what members did want to do was to give more importance to strategy and planning which was one of the departments for which i was responsible and communication so i think they wanted

01:46:53 and communication so i think they wanted to see what they might have described as a step change in uh performance um but it wasn't to remedy um as it were known defects

01:47:04 as it were known defects and when you were appointed deputy commissioner in november 2009 again was there a particular problem that you were appointed into that role to solve no right

01:47:16 to solve no right turning to that when you were appointed into that role in november 2009 did you receive any handover

01:47:24 i don't recall a specific handover but i'd worked closely with the deputy commissioner who preceded me but no i don't recall a handover as such

01:47:35 but no i don't recall a handover as such no and just for our benefit who was that that was mr roy bishop

01:47:42 now if we go to your first witness statement please lfb3032363

01:47:49 page two paragraph five

01:47:53 you say there in the seventh line that you had relevant fire service experience based on your role as director of corporate services within the lfb since 2001

01:48:04 services within the lfb since 2001 how did that prepare you for the role of deputy commissioner

01:48:11 uh well obviously i had knowledge of the structure of the brigade so the building blocks of the brigade

01:48:22 i had knowledge and experience of the political management arrangements for the brigade which was always very important

01:48:33 which was always very important [Music]

01:48:36 [Music] i had become aware of the priorities of the service and

01:48:43 and i had

01:48:45 i had with

01:48:46 with my teams led on the production of what was known as the london safety plan for a number of years so the london safety plan was the brigade's integrated risk

01:48:57 plan was the brigade's integrated risk management plan and the statutory requirement to produce an integrated risk management plan i think came in in 2005 and an integrated risk management plan

01:49:08 and an integrated risk management plan was regarded as a key strategic planning document for all brigades which set out what it wanted to achieve the levels of service that it would provide it was a

01:49:19 service that it would provide it was a replacement for old nationally prescribed standards so for the first time we were allowed to determine our own arrangements for response in terms of

01:49:31 arrangements for response in terms of the arrangements of fire stations fire engines so all of that was part of the integrated risk management plan and um

01:49:42 and um i and the departments for which i i was at that time directly responsible um were responsible for that plan so that was a key that was the key document

01:49:53 was a key that was the key document for london fire brigade as it as it would have been in in other brigades in the country as well right now as deputy commissioner you were is this right one of the lfb's three directors

01:50:06 four oh sorry excluding the commissioners excluding the commission sorry yes i'm sorry yes yes uh and that was is this right alongside the director of operations resilience and training yes who until 2015 i think

01:50:19 and training yes who until 2015 i think also was gary reason initially gary dobson but subsequently gary reason and secondly the director of finance and contractual services who i think was sue budden yes yes and as deputy

01:50:30 budden yes yes and as deputy commissioner you held the additional responsibility of deputising for the commissioner that's correct do it i think all through your time was ron dobson that's correct yes were there any other ways in which

01:50:41 yes were there any other ways in which your role differed from the other director's roles

01:50:45 i mean quite apart from the supervision of the departments which were obviously different but as director reporting to uh the commissioner did you all have the same reporting responsibilities yes we did

01:50:56 did now is it right that your directorate the deputy commissioners directorate included

01:51:02 included uh at the very least the following departments and i'll give you five or four sorry first the fire safety regulation department yes and that became later known i think as the fire safety

01:51:13 known i think as the fire safety department maybe

01:51:15 maybe uh you say maybe is that after your time possibly

01:51:20 possibly just to be clear is it right that within the fire safety regulation department during your time uh

01:51:28 uh um

01:51:29 um the enforcement obligations sat under the rro yes and that was andy jack at least for some of it

01:51:39 uh

01:51:43 i don't know that i personally would have attached andy jack's name to that uh but

01:51:49 uh but certainly andy jack yes was involved in those activities yes yes um secondly the operations prevention and response department yes thirdly the strategy and performance department yes

01:52:00 department yes uh fourthly the communications department yes are there any significant departments for which you were responsible that i've omitted from that list yes legal legal and democratic services uh yes uh

01:52:13 services uh yes uh very well

01:52:14 very well uh

01:52:15 uh are you able to give us a brief overview of the strategy and performance department's remit

01:52:24 uh yes so

01:52:25 yes so it

01:52:28 matured over time so it was a department that i was responsible for when i joined in 2001

01:52:35 in 2001 um

01:52:36 um and

01:52:37 and um

01:52:39 i suppose focusing on 2009 rather than earlier it was the department that was uh principally involved in the london safety plan or the integrated risk

01:52:51 safety plan or the integrated risk management plan as i've just described it

01:52:54 it um

01:52:55 um it was responsible for oversight of the brigade's

01:53:04 risk management plan that was different to the integrated risk management plan in the early early years there was some work to be done on defining the division between those two things but

01:53:16 division between those two things but that was about the corporate risks of the brigade as a whole so you know it might include things which were of no relevance to the irmp but which were relevant to the effective

01:53:27 which were relevant to the effective functioning of the brigade just pause just pausing there when you say the lfps risk management plan do you mean the brigade's internal risk management plan relating to risks to itself yes as

01:53:38 relating to risks to itself yes as opposed to risks to premises for which it was responsible or either as an effort yes that would be one way of characterizing yes yes yes so risk management planning um it was responsible for performance

01:53:50 it was responsible for performance reviews so in my early years there was a statutory requirement to undertake a rolling program of what were then known as best value reviews but when

01:54:02 but when i can't remember whether best value as a legal concept came to be abolished by the government but it was over time replaced by a different scheme of performance review

01:54:13 performance review arrangements some of which from time to time involved inspections by the audit commission but

01:54:20 but probably by the time i'd left were more as it came to be described sector-led rather than led by an external body like the audit commission

01:54:31 the audit commission um

01:54:33 um sorry a major function of the strategy and planning department was the information management division so they were responsible for the

01:54:44 so they were responsible for the production of our information strategy and also for the design and maintenance of a number of key um information management systems so

01:54:57 um information management systems so um i haven't listened to all of peter grove's evidence in the last few days but i'd be surprised if he hadn't referred for example to to step as a system that recorded information

01:55:08 as a system that recorded information about

01:55:10 about the training undertaken by individuals within the organization and so the design and maintenance and integration of systems like step we had something called stars and numerous other

01:55:22 and numerous other systems to too many for me to readily recall they they were as it were designed and maintained within that division within strategy and planning

01:55:35 within strategy and planning sorry there was also the um predetermined attendance team

01:55:41 team so that was the team that oversaw the policy and maintenance of

01:55:51 of the arrangements for determining which appliances would be dispatched to which address and that was all done via a system known as predetermined attendance

01:56:02 predetermined attendance um

01:56:03 um and i have a horrible feeling i'm of overlooking uh a key team um but for the moment i can't drag their name to the front of my memory i'm sorry well thank you very much now looking at a different

01:56:14 you very much now looking at a different department operations prevention and response which also fell within your directorate am i right that that department's remit was local stations and the control room

01:56:25 and the control room or rooms uh yes but also for community fire safety policy and

01:56:32 and delivery

01:56:34 delivery so

01:56:37 there were numerous programs associated with the community fire safety objectives of the brigade um home fire safety visit so the team

01:56:49 um home fire safety visit so the team didn't carry out the home fire safety visits but they were responsible for as it were the policy that determined how and where they would be carried out but they were

01:57:00 they would be carried out but they were also responsible for things like the cadets programme junior fire setters a range of discrete

01:57:09 programs intended to um promote community fire safety right now some people sorry and sorry and just to say that uh within that department

01:57:20 to say that uh within that department there was also um what's what was known as the resource management center which was a kind of you know detailed technical thing but a very important detailed technical thing um i think you know you'd have to ask

01:57:33 um i think you know you'd have to ask dave brown when you when when he comes to give you a better description of it than i will than like than i will be able to manage today but it was an important and important corner of uh that department now dave brown is

01:57:46 that department now dave brown is the

01:57:46 the assistant commissioner dave brown yes yes so he was head of he was assistant commissioner opr um when i was in post and um both his title and his rank changed subsequently and he

01:57:57 and his rank changed subsequently and he had i think during your time the title third officer did he as well yes yes um now you've described very helpfully to us although in overall terms different

01:58:08 although in overall terms different functions these different departments had

01:58:10 had from the to the best of your knowledge and recollection who decided which functions should be allocated to which of these departments under your directorate

01:58:25 the commissioner must be the answer to that so

01:58:29 that so um

01:58:29 um [Music]

01:58:32 [Music] the authority the authority itself approved the structure of the organization and if there were to be any significant changes to the structure then that would have to be

01:58:44 then that would have to be reported to members for approval so they decided how many chief officers you know how many directors we had how many chief officers we had and by chief officer that i mean to include assistant

01:58:56 that i mean to include assistant commissioners so the head of strategy and planning would be

01:59:00 would be a chief officer but so two would be the head of

01:59:03 head of um opr operations prevention and response but he would also be sometimes known as a assistant commissioner and unhelpfully sometimes also known as the third officer but in essence they were

01:59:14 third officer but in essence they were as it were chief officers um so the authority approved um the structure in the in those terms um

01:59:23 um based upon advice received from the commissioner taking an example from what you've just told us somebody decided that the pda the predetermined attendance team should sit within the

01:59:34 attendance team should sit within the strategy and performance department's remit but community safety home fire visits and the control room should fit in a different department the operations prevention and response department are

01:59:45 prevention and response department are you able to tell us in very brief terms who made that decision or rather

01:59:51 or rather what the logic was for that decision

01:59:57 uh i think in the case of pda it will

02:00:09 in the case of pda it will i'm torn between now wanting to say i don't know and offering you an answer but if you don't know you don't know no uh i i don't know in the case of pda uh then

02:00:20 i don't know in the case of pda uh then i you know i've got some intelligent speculation about it but that's all it is um in the case of community safety um

02:00:27 um it was in the uh it was in the period after i joined the brigade but shortly after i joined the brigade that brigades began to think a great deal more about

02:00:39 began to think a great deal more about community fire safety and about what activities they might undertake

02:00:45 undertake um in order to promote community fire safety and i think that was very much as it were grown in then roy bishop's directorate um so so i think that's why

02:00:57 so i think that's why it started there and and it continued there

02:01:00 there and there were good reasons for that so you know if if the major bulk of community fire safety activity was home fire safety visits they were going to be delivered by

02:01:11 they were going to be delivered by firefighters based at fire stations so there was a natural synergy there and things like um the junior fire setters team for example

02:01:24 that that was very much associated with fire stations and fire fighters and so there was a very close uh affinity between community fire safety as a as a

02:01:35 between community fire safety as a as a function as it were and fire stations did anybody during your time keep regular watch

02:01:44 watch by way of monitoring on the appropriateness of this this structure and

02:01:50 and whether or not it was a pro whether or not it was appropriate to keep the structure as it was or whether different functions should be moved

02:01:59 was that regular regularly reviewed um it wasn't frequently reviewed but it but it was reviewed so the structure when i joined in 2001 was a new structure as i've already mentioned

02:02:10 i've already mentioned with as it were and a new arrangement of the building blocks um

02:02:16 um there were adjustments when i was appointed as deputy commissioner in 2009 so some of the departments which i was responsible as deputy commissioner had not previously been under roy bishop's command

02:02:29 been under roy bishop's command and of course there was a further restructuring as i left in 2015 which produced by redundancy so those are three high-level examples of where

02:02:41 high-level examples of where as it were the building blocks were actively reviewed but uh but i'm sorry i think there must have been another occasion as well when i joined in 2001 i joined at the same time as

02:02:53 2001 i joined at the same time as another

02:02:54 another um

02:02:55 um as we were sometimes described non-operational director who also happened to be a woman so

02:03:01 so it was regarded as notable that two women had joined as directors two non-operational women had joined as directors

02:03:08 directors and i can't remember the year in which barbara

02:03:11 barbara herself was made redundant i'm afraid um but um but that must if she was made redundant that was the result of as it were a reordering of the building

02:03:22 as it were a reordering of the building blocks and barbara was director of resources

02:03:26 resources and sue was director of finance and contractual services so there was definitely some rearrangement at some point but i i can't date it i'm afraid so that's barbara's surname barbara ritter barbara riddle

02:03:38 ritter barbara riddle yeah now i'm looking at your witness statement if we can please at page four

02:03:49 um paragraph ten you say that under the latter house action plan you

02:03:58 you in line five you say where those heads of service reported to me i sought to guarantee the delivery of various actions through management arrangements i would routinely meet at least monthly

02:04:09 i would routinely meet at least monthly with the heads of service who reported to me to discuss their wider activities and projects which included the actions that had been assigned to them and then you talk about the latino house board which we'll come to later

02:04:21 house board which we'll come to later now um where you refer to heads of service are those the heads of service for the departments that we've just outlined yes and did any other heads of service report to you uh none in addition to those we've

02:04:33 uh none in addition to those we've identified and were those meetings monthly uh yes are they formal or informal meetings uh i don't know the answer to that question they they were they were regular scheduled meetings they were

02:04:45 regular scheduled meetings they were regular and scheduled they weren't just uh very well were they minuted no they weren't ministered no they were they were one-to-one meetings between the head of service and myself to what extent were you involved in monitoring

02:04:56 extent were you involved in monitoring their the heads of service work that they were undertaking

02:05:05 to what extent um let me ask it a different way well no to a significant extent um uh i was struggling about whether to say intimately but that would imply i was excessively controlling um which some

02:05:17 excessively controlling um which some people might have thought i was no i was very involved in uh in that let me ask it slightly differently i mean you had these monthly meetings yes um

02:05:26 um which were not minuted but was that the extent of your monitoring or did you did you monitor and get involved in the business of those departments between those meetings uh it certainly wasn't the only way i

02:05:37 uh it certainly wasn't the only way i monitored them um so um

02:05:42 but i guess the other you know the other ways were

02:05:46 ways were indirect so um i'm sure we'll talk about the

02:05:50 the luck and old house action plan and i think it's you know likely that you'll at some point take me to comments i met i made on various drafts where i said you know actually that's not clear

02:06:01 you know actually that's not clear enough or will you put some numbers in here please or you know comments from me entire intended to improve the content of that plan um but i did that across a very wide

02:06:13 um but i did that across a very wide range of documents so all of the reports that went from my directorate to meetings of the authority or committees of the authority of which there were many hundreds and

02:06:24 of which there were many hundreds and hundreds over the years came via my desk and

02:06:29 and i think it's fair to say i read them all and i commented on very many of them so

02:06:36 so those reports would be produced at levels below me so within the brigade because of the nature of the organisation you often found a position where

02:06:48 you often found a position where one person or one department was response was responsible for the production of a particular report but they would then have to involve 10 or 20 other people in contributing to

02:07:00 10 or 20 other people in contributing to that so a good example of that would be the quarterly performance monitoring report that went to the governance performance and audit

02:07:11 the governance performance and audit committee so those reports would tell members

02:07:15 members how we were getting on with the delivery of

02:07:18 of key performance indicators as published in the london safety plan and

02:07:23 and an advanced draft of that report would come to me and i would read it and as a result of reading that i would be able to go back to my heads and service and say actually you know

02:07:34 service and say actually you know those numbers are of concern to me you know

02:07:39 you know why were there fewer fire safety inspections of high-risk premises in the last quarter than there were in the quarter before that so that's an example but um there was there was a

02:07:52 example but um there was there was a great deal of that so i had as it were purchase on um

02:07:57 um lots of aspects of the delivery of or the performance of those departments as a result of for example that kind of activity right now i just want to ask

02:08:08 activity right now i just want to ask you about oversight and responsibility in your role as one of the three directors um there was i think something called the corporate management team or cmt is that

02:08:19 corporate management team or cmt is that right cmb in my day corporate management board

02:08:23 board i think i believe it subsequently became cmt but it was definitely cnb while i was imposed do you know when the cmb was established uh

02:08:32 uh before my time it existed when i joined right and during your time in brief what type of matters would the cmb discuss or oversee

02:08:44 it would oversee monitoring of the authority's budget

02:08:57 it would

02:08:59 review some of the more key reports that we intended to put to the authority it would

02:09:12 it would

02:09:17 uh so the budget key reports to members if we had

02:09:24 if we had industrial disputes and sadly we had numerous

02:09:29 numerous uh it would receive reports about handling aspects of that

02:09:37 that it would receive from time to time reports about some of our more major contracts so for example the contract

02:09:49 contracts so for example the contract with

02:09:50 with asic co as it was at one point uh subsequently became babcock i think but the the contract for the provision of appliances to the brigade

02:10:01 to the brigade similarly it would receive reports about babcock and the delivery of the training contract as not all of the reports about that topic but the

02:10:12 the reports about that topic but the reports that it was presented that it was intended to present to members it would

02:10:20 it would as a kind of set piece on an annual basis review the health and safety

02:10:25 safety statement

02:10:27 statement for the brigade which was i think a statutory requirement so there was some of the business was cyclical um and in that sense predictable and other

02:10:38 and in that sense predictable and other items were in response to either events or priorities at that point in time now you refer to the cmb not the cmt uh

02:10:50 uh was there something called the commissioners group yes was that different from the cmb or the same it was it was different what was it um so um

02:11:01 um so um cmb i think met on wednesday mornings uh in a very formal way and cnb was routinely also attended by

02:11:12 also attended by a number of advisors so that for example the head of legal and democratic services always attended cnb but was not a member as it were the head of strategy and planning

02:11:23 the head of strategy and planning attended cnb the one or the head of equality has attended cnb

02:11:30 um uh uh and i'm sorry to go back to to go back a couple of stages on building blocks uh

02:11:40 i've just realised to my

02:11:45 in a way that's putting me off slightly i don't know why we didn't talk about the equality department the equality department reported to me as deputy commissioner

02:11:59 so sorry to go back to your question about the commissioners group the commissioners group was intended to be an informal and more informal opportunity for

02:12:10 opportunity for the four most senior officers and it became

02:12:14 became five so dave browner's third officer was added to the commissioners group for us to be able to meet more informally so the wednesday cmb meetings

02:12:25 informally so the wednesday cmb meetings uh were more formal um usually it was jolly helpful to have the advisors there but sometimes we wanted to talk about things you know without the advisors

02:12:36 without the advisors we were the more the more senior officers the five more senior officers and sometimes we just wanted the opportunity to talk about things in a more informal way

02:12:47 talk about things in a more informal way quite often they were to do with i don't know city hall politics so it was a terribly difficult period in terms of um the relationship with the mayor and

02:12:58 um the relationship with the mayor and the relationship with city hall particularly where there were proposals around

02:13:02 around for example station closures and it was just helpful sometimes to be able to meet and say you know this is what the mayor's thinking or this is what one of the mayor's advisers is thinking it may or

02:13:13 mayor's advisers is thinking it may or may not come to fruition um you know so more informal things maybe more ad hoc informal updates uh on the industrial relations position if we've got ongoing

02:13:24 relations position if we've got ongoing disputes so you know maybe some feedback from what the employer's thoughts were about you know where we were in the pensions dispute for example um so just a more informal opportunity

02:13:36 um so just a more informal opportunity right um

02:13:38 right um let me see if i can clear this up because i think we've been led into confusion or i have can i ask you please to look at mr reason's witness statement at lfb3032747

02:13:49 this is gary reason's witness statement page three please paragraph seven

02:13:58 uh and

02:14:00 and at paragraph seven he says at the top of the page there at the time of taking up the d-o-r-d-o-o-r-t roll dirt that's i'll call it roll the brigade cmt

02:14:12 brigade cmt was made up of the commissioner ron dobson deputy commissioner rita dexter director of contractual services sue budden and myself the cmt was supplemented in 2013 by the appointment

02:14:23 supplemented in 2013 by the appointment of a third officer assistant commissioner dave brown who at that time was responsible for managing all of the brigades fire stations now and that's why i asked you about the cmt

02:14:34 cmt um is mr reason correct that there was such a thing called the cmt that he's referring to here and describing uh one of us is mistaken and i i think

02:14:46 uh one of us is mistaken and i i think it's gary um so i think it became cmt and i know that gary went back to the brigade after grenfell and there was a cmt then but

02:14:57 cmt then but i'm i'm reasonably certain that in my time it was known as cnb so it's the same thing but yes absolutely yes now just on the cmb then and sorry and just to you know so that was the cmb but cmb

02:15:09 to you know so that was the cmb but cmb was also attended by advisors and gary hasn't made that point so he hasn't mentioned for example that um uh the head of legal and democratic services was always in attendance but that was not the case at the

02:15:21 that was not the case at the commissioners group so the commissioners group

02:15:24 group is as described um there yes that has that has cleared that up i think so thank you um just to be a little clearer still the cmb as you've referred to it

02:15:35 still the cmb as you've referred to it you say met wednesdays formally did it

02:15:39 did it were there minutes taken of those meetings yes there were right the commissioners group you say was informal

02:15:49 informal and was that unminuted yes tuesday mornings unminuted yes but it was also held regularly tuesday yes right now in addition to your role on the

02:16:00 now in addition to your role on the um cmb and within the commissioners group is it right that you were also a member of the operational directorate's coordination board or the odcb

02:16:11 coordination board or the odcb i was the chair of odcb we always the chair of the odcb once i became deputy commissioner yes i follow now we're going to come on in a little while to explore the work of the odcb in

02:16:23 while to explore the work of the odcb in detail but for the time being is it right that the board

02:16:28 board that board was comprised of the directors and heads of service of the lfbs two operational directorates so yours

02:16:37 yours and

02:16:38 and gary reasons uh not in their entirety no so

02:16:43 so odcb

02:16:45 odcb i chaired odcb as deputy commissioner gary dobson and then gary reason in the same role director of ort attended

02:16:56 same role director of ort attended sue budden as director of finance and contractual services came later so i don't think sue was attending odcb as a standing member

02:17:07 was attending odcb as a standing member when i began to chair odcb i could be wrong about that but i don't believe that to be the case i think she was added subsequently and then other members of odcb

02:17:18 members of odcb certainly included all of the assistant commissioners um

02:17:22 um because because of their management role so you know the head of assist the assistant commissioner for the head of for example operational planning

02:17:35 for example operational planning attended because he was the head of operational planning not not because he was an ac in fact that role was always occupied by an ac but

02:17:43 but the heads of the operational departments attended

02:17:48 attended um uh odcb as standing members other members other heads of service did not attend odcb so the head of strategy and planning for example did not attend odcb as a standing member um

02:18:01 as a standing member um the head of legal democratic services didn't the head of i.t didn't so it wasn't all of the heads of service um some of them it was a defined group

02:18:12 um some of them it was a defined group and so to be clear assistant commissioners did attend whether or not but where they were heads of service but but not all heads of service

02:18:23 but not all heads of service yes yes i follow uh you referred i think to our strategy and planning did you mean strategy and performance or is it something else like that no no um

02:18:32 um the planning and performance changed over time i can't date it but yes that would be s p um did not pretend s p could cover both yes

02:18:43 did not pretend s p could cover both yes um right uh well let's let's see how we go with the acronyms but but was the primary purpose of the odcb to review the lfb's operational performance and training

02:18:54 training uh

02:18:56 uh yes that would be one headline yes when i say headline at the primary purpose the mate yes yes yes now we're going to

02:19:03 going to touch on your membership of the latino house board and then the national house working group later in your evidence but just

02:19:11 but just pausing on that point for the moment is it right that the latino house board was set up following the latino house fire in july 2009 yes

02:19:24 2009 yes and is it right that the purpose of that board was primarily to investigate the cause of the fire uh and the brigade's response to it

02:19:36 uh

02:19:39 i can't remember your question included primarily again yes yes yes i mean there were other things as well of course the follow-up action yes follow-up action or

02:19:50 action yes follow-up action or consequential action yes yeah we'll come to it later on in slower time but just just as a headline point and also as a headline point at this early stage miss dexter is it right that the latino house working group or

02:20:02 working group or lhwg was a body established by the london fire and emergency planning authority or el fipa in june 2013 following the latino house coroner's

02:20:14 following the latino house coroner's rule 43 recommendations yes so the lucknow house working group was a

02:20:21 was a a body of elected members of whom there were three advised by officers yes and although it wasn't a formal committee of el fipa it operated in the same way that

02:20:33 el fipa it operated in the same way that is the members were the elected members and the officers were there as advisers yes and is it right that el fipa formed part of the greater london

02:20:44 formed part of the greater london authority yes yes and it was in in effect a political body charged with running the london fire brigade yes yeah and it didn't hold responsibility for running the daily

02:20:57 responsibility for running the daily working

02:20:58 working of the lfb uh

02:21:02 uh no but that's not to say it was unconcerned with as it were the daily running of the lfb insofar as it affected the objectives to improve safety for londoners indeed and do you agree that

02:21:14 londoners indeed and do you agree that the elect the lf epa or elfipa held the lfb accountable through a number of boards and committees uh

02:21:22 uh committees uh the lucknow house working group was an exceptional thing um i don't think there were any boards um so certainly through committees and through the lucknow house working group

02:21:33 through the lucknow house working group the reason i ask about committees is because

02:21:36 because we've come across two i think by way of example the elfipa governance performance and audit committee yes and the el people strategy committee yes yes they were uh

02:21:48 yes yes they were uh there were different committees uh earlier in my time in el fibre so the committee structure was capable of being revised

02:21:57 revised annually if members wished it to be so so

02:22:00 so i think when i joined it was a slightly different structure right um but but certainly by the time i left that wasn't stretching right were you a member of those two i'm sorry there was probably also a finance committee um there weren't only those two committees there

02:22:11 weren't only those two committees there was a finance committee uh and there will also have been provision for an urgency committee and an appointments committee right and those committees were is this right the way in which el fifa oversaw

02:22:24 right the way in which el fifa oversaw uh lfb and held it to account yes yes were you a member of the two committees i mentioned the governance performance and audit committee and the strategy committee no you you you're only a

02:22:36 committee no you you you're only a member of a committee if you were uh an elected member i a councillor or a member from the london assembly and if you attended as an officer you were as it were in attendance i see and you were

02:22:47 it were in attendance i see and you were you were one of those in attendance rather than a member i follow now let's then turn to look if we can a little bit more closely please at the odcb the operational directorates coordination board

02:22:59 board first uh i think you've confirmed but it's right isn't it that you chaired the odcb through during your time as deputy commissioner yes was it throughout that time yes

02:23:08 time yes uh and the first meeting that you chaired as we have it in our records is the 2nd of march 2010 is that something you remember we have the minutes if you want to see them but would that be about right uh that's

02:23:19 would that be about right uh that's certainly about right yes yes we do have the minutes for that sure there just for our reference there at lfb three zeros four zero six zero seven we don't need to turn them up now and is it right also that gary

02:23:30 now and is it right also that gary reason uh

02:23:33 reason uh as director of operational resilience and training chaired the odcb in your absence

02:23:38 absence uh yes

02:23:40 uh yes how often does the odcb meet uh probably four times a year and that was a formal occasion yes formally minuted yes

02:23:51 formally minuted yes turning to its terms of reference we find those at lfb 3032733

02:24:03 can we just go to that please and we can look at section one summary objective under terms of reference and i'll just read this to you within the brigade's overall governance arrangements the odcb provides

02:24:14 provides a formal and scheduled forum for the principal offices of the deputy commissioners directorate and director of operational resilience and training to consider a intelligence from a number of sources

02:24:25 intelligence from a number of sources about the brigade's operational and training activities and determine the most appropriate response in terms of policy review and development b regular reports about dynamic and intelligent operational training or diot

02:24:38 intelligent operational training or diot or diode

02:24:39 or diode which enables the brigade to identify positive and developmental trends from operational and training activities which is used and which is used to help decide future training requirements and to assist in identifying any areas where

02:24:50 to assist in identifying any areas where the brigade's operational performance needs to improve and see other cross cross-directorate policy issues the board is in essence a policy forum relating to operational health and

02:25:01 relating to operational health and safety and training issues and will not manage the actual delivery of policies and procedures which is the responsibility of other bodies now just focusing on those last

02:25:13 now just focusing on those last that last sentence in particular are we to take it that the clue of the function of the odcb is actually in the name namely a forum for the two

02:25:24 in the name namely a forum for the two operational directorates to coordinate their activity was that the crux of it

02:25:33 um

02:25:46 i'm thinking hard about whether coordination is the best way of thinking about it um but yes yes yeah

02:25:55 yes yeah and is it right that the odcb meetings were attended by the vast majority of lfb's senior officers save the commissioner well um

02:26:05 well um accept the heads of service that we talked about earlier may i see page two of this document yes of course page two

02:26:12 page two uh is where we're going next we're going to go to right well we're going to go and set to section four which may help okay membership deputies frequency and administration and then there's a list yes of the members yes

02:26:23 yes of the members yes um

02:26:24 um and so that may help you yes that list there is that the vast majority of lfb's senior officers um

02:26:33 um they have a description but rather than it leaves out four or five of important important officers so the head of finance isn't there uh head of s p isn't there

02:26:45 head of s p isn't there head of equality isn't there head of legal isn't there so as before it was very much more more focused on those with operational responsibilities

02:26:57 those with operational responsibilities but the head of human resources and development was there principally because of the relationship with babcock and training the head of finance and contractual

02:27:08 the head of finance and contractual services i've been struggling why it doesn't say director of finance and contractual services when i reviewed this document because sue button was the director of finance contractual services but

02:27:21 finance contractual services but that was because part of the business of odcb sometimes did

02:27:29 did encroach on issues to do with equipment for example appliances and equipment and so

02:27:34 so i think we're the function responsible for

02:27:37 for procurement and co and some of those contracts was there um

02:27:43 so uh

02:27:46 numerically it's the majority of heads of service but it's certainly not all of them now you said something a moment ago uh that i'm interested in you said the head of finance isn't there the head of s p isn't there no by s p do you mean

02:28:00 s p isn't there no by s p do you mean strategy and performance or strategy and planning

02:28:04 planning um

02:28:06 that title changed at some point but i can't date it so i can't remember whether it was first head of strategy and planning or first head of strategy and performance and it and then it changed to the other

02:28:18 and it and then it changed to the other but it's it's the same it's the same role the same role and it sat within your directorate yes but was but that head did not attend odcb why is that um because it was this was largely

02:28:30 um because it was this was largely focused on uh as it were operational performance and improvement so there wasn't a strong case for the holder of that role to attend um

02:28:43 the holder of that role to attend um odcb

02:28:46 who made that who decided that there wasn't such a strong case for that to be

02:28:52 to be there i must have inherited it um so i don't remember making an active decision about it right did another strike he was odd that the head of s p

02:29:03 strike he was odd that the head of s p was no it was not routinely or whatever actually is it looks from this uh at odcb meetings no didn't no why is that uh because there was nothing about the

02:29:14 uh because there was nothing about the business of odcb that um

02:29:20 that um that uh sorry in the context of the business of odcb i can't remember an occasion where i thought oh actually it would have been really helpful if we'd had that person in attendance right so

02:29:31 had that person in attendance right so um but

02:29:33 um but it doesn't say it here but the head of information management who reported to the head of snp regularly attended as it were by invitation but regularly attended

02:29:45 invitation but regularly attended in order to provide updates on issues that were of relevance to operational performance for example um to provide an update on what was happening with mobile data

02:29:57 happening with mobile data terminals so there were there were often information management specific issues that arose at odcb or which odcb needed to receive an update about and so

02:30:09 needed to receive an update about and so that head who wasn't a head of service but head of information management division

02:30:15 division he attended from time to time to provide those updates right

02:30:21 right we may come back to that in due course just looking staying with this page you'll notice uh in the last bullet point there that babcock international uh was a member on a four monthly basis

02:30:33 uh was a member on a four monthly basis does that mean they only attended odcb meetings every four months yes they attended when we took the impd reports as they're referred to because the impd reports were

02:30:47 because the impd reports were the vehicle so the impd reports are part of diet and we'll explore all of this i'm sure but the impd reports were the main vehicle for

02:30:59 were the main vehicle for determining [Music]

02:31:01 [Music] issues that we were going to take forward

02:31:06 through operational news and or training and or policy adjustments right so

02:31:15 so so there was a direct need for babcock to be in attendance for those items

02:31:21 items i mean before the contract was uh before the function was externalized the assistant commissioner training would have been in attendance and um

02:31:32 and um and and as it were covered that off but once we ceased to have an assistant commissioner training we needed to uh babcock needed to be in attendance

02:31:43 attendance to as it were fulfill the function previously undertaken by what had been the assistant commissioner training yes now

02:31:51 now we know that the

02:31:55 the frequency of attendance of babcock at the odcb meetings decreased from uh

02:32:01 uh well three times a year as it would have been uh to once every six months when did that happen i was about to ask you that

02:32:11 you that um

02:32:12 um do you remember that no you don't right do you know would it follow that since you don't remember when it happened you don't know why it happened uh

02:32:21 uh no i mean

02:32:23 no i mean i'm assuming you're saying that because you've got some minutes and you've and and you can see when it happened but no i don't i don't recall that does it help you to know that the impd reporting

02:32:34 you to know that the impd reporting changed

02:32:36 changed uh we think in 2012 to every six months first was that is that correct actually uh i don't know i'd have to uh i'd have

02:32:47 uh i don't know i'd have to uh i'd have to review um the agenda and minutes um

02:32:51 um is it right to say sorry um no i'm sorry go ahead go ahead yes yes right is it fair to say that the odcb was was particularly focused on

02:33:03 odcb was was particularly focused on operational information and feedback yes in other words operations in the field rather than internally

02:33:12 i'm not sure the distinction you're driving at all right we'll come back to that then perhaps later can we stick with

02:33:19 with this document and go back please to page one

02:33:22 one and go to page two

02:33:29 uh the bottom of page one you can see the agenda set out part one standard business terms

02:33:37 and you have quarterly meetings six monthly meetings for good page two which would include the impd six monthly update uh and uh

02:33:49 uh and uh and entering meetings as well between the quarterly and six monthly meetings uh now if we go on to part two it says here part two strategic direction issues which include policy issues affecting

02:34:00 which include policy issues affecting both directorates the agreement of changes to strategies and policies relating to health and safety operational staff training and development senior operational officer training and the prioritization of

02:34:11 training and the prioritization of non-core operational training needs other examples of strategic direction issues include the final agreement of operational elements of selection processes and the annual babcock training delivery plan decisions arising

02:34:23 training delivery plan decisions arising from this part of the agenda will as appropriate be referred to other departments stroke bodies for action or information eg corporate management board it's the cmb i think heads of service group

02:34:35 service group now

02:34:38 first is it right that the odcb was expected to be at the heart of any substantive policy revisions

02:34:49 you get that from the first line and second line there changes to strategies and policies uh

02:34:57 uh yes

02:34:58 yes um

02:34:59 um can i just say um i don't have any first-hand recollection of this document so it's dated october 2013.

02:35:11 2013. i asked to see the second page earlier because i'm conscious that in reviewing evidence before today i've seen different versions of the terms of reference and membership of

02:35:22 the terms of reference and membership of odcb and i've definitely picked up some errors in those which i've reported back to my legal team um

02:35:28 um but this

02:35:31 but this i i

02:35:32 i i i just have a slight reservation about this document i don't know um i don't i have no visual recollection of it um but it refers to um

02:35:44 um but it refers to um approval of the annual babcock training delivery plan yeah and and i'm fairly certain we never did that um uh because because we didn't um i think the annual

02:35:55 because we didn't um i think the annual training delivery plan went to cmb and and sorry we had that discussion earlier about cnbcmt it's interesting this does refer to the corporate management board not the corporate management team but i'm i'm just

02:36:08 management team but i'm i'm just uh i'm just a bit anxious about the provenance of this document i'm i'm sorry i just need to say that because there are

02:36:14 there are some things about it that just strike me i mentioned earlier the head of finance and contractual services as against the director of finance and contractual services so there are just some small details in it that that make me that may

02:36:25 details in it that that make me that may be troubled about it i i think it's broadly absolutely spot on but i i just do have some reservations about its provenance well i was going to ask you because my next question what was the annual

02:36:37 next question what was the annual babcock training delivery plan but i think your answer is is this right it didn't exist oh no i think it did exist but it i don't think it came to i don't think it came to um uh odcb i think it came to

02:36:49 uh odcb i think it came to cmb i'm i'm fairly certain i've said to my i've seen a copy of a cnb report about uh

02:36:58 about uh plans with babcock during the preparation of my evidence and i'm pretty sure i identified that one of the appendices referred to in that cnb report was the draft uh annual plan and

02:37:10 report was the draft uh annual plan and and as it happens it was omitted from the bundle that i got but i noticed it i registered it wasn't there and that suggests to me that the babcock training delivery plan went to cmb rather than to

02:37:21 delivery plan went to cmb rather than to odcb right who was responsible for drafting this document i don't know mr millett um can you tell us what was the annual babcock training delivery plan

02:37:32 babcock training delivery plan uh

02:37:33 uh i think

02:37:34 i think uh

02:37:36 uh that the plan was produced within gary reason's command and gary will be much better equipped to give you an accurate um an accurate description

02:37:47 an accurate um an accurate description of the delivery plan uh well you say it came to the cmb indeed you were on the cmb i was i was presumably being on the cmb you got to

02:38:00 presumably being on the cmb you got to see the annual babcock training delivery plan yes that's it so what was it um

02:38:08 it was a plan that set out intentions for the coming year in terms of the intended delivery

02:38:20 in terms of the intended delivery program of training within the organization and what role did the cm be have in relation to that plan

02:38:32 to scrutinize it and

02:38:36 and approve it i can't i can't as a matter of fact remember whether it was then referred to the relevant committee of the authority for

02:38:45 for uh for approval as well so certainly a committee of the authority received i think quarterly reports on

02:38:56 on the progress of the delivery of the plan you know members were told how many courses of what type had been provided and how many people were in attendance and what the feedback was and

02:39:08 attendance and what the feedback was and a whole range of matters

02:39:12 but as a matter of fact i simply can't recall whether the plan went from cnb to a committee of the authority as a member of the cmb scrutinizing and approving

02:39:23 of the cmb scrutinizing and approving the annual babcock training delivery plan

02:39:29 plan what did the cnb scrutinize it against what tools did it use to examine that annual plan and decide whether or not to approve it

02:39:47 the tools it used were

02:39:52 the experience and knowledge of the members of cnb so there was no as it were

02:40:02 paper-based checklist um you know check if this is in the plan or that is in the plan or enough of this is in the plan or enough of that is in the plan you know if there was that kind of

02:40:13 you know if there was that kind of process that would have been happening long before it got to cmb um but as members of cnb we were

02:40:24 we were repositories of knowledge about the organization and about

02:40:32 and about issues that needed to be

02:40:42 covered by training activity but but the detailed building blocks of that

02:40:50 that were the product of the kind of processes that were described in peter grove's document how training works

02:41:00 works so as it were the heavy lifting of the detail happened in well established processes before they got to before the plan got to cmb

02:41:12 before the plan got to cmb but

02:41:13 but but the training plan wasn't i think we were going to a group of strangers who had no ability to assess whether um

02:41:25 um it was a good plan or a completely bonkers plan as members of cnb we all had

02:41:31 had functional responsibilities that we were discharging on an ongoing basis which gave us

02:41:37 gave us i believe sufficient competence to form a view about whether the training plan was the training plan that we wanted for the organisation in the year ahead

02:41:45 ahead how would you know from your own experience as one of the members of the cmb approving that plan whether anything was important was missing

02:41:56 missing uh

02:41:57 uh well i think if so i think you've already heard that um the training team as i will call them um i'm sure they've got a more complicated title but the training team worked with

02:42:11 title but the training team worked with heads of service and many others to as it were gather up intelligence about what those heads of service believed to be necessary in the coming year

02:42:23 necessary in the coming year and

02:42:24 and if what those heads of service had asked for as it were didn't find its way into the training plan um then i'm certain that you know in my case it would have been raised with me

02:42:36 case it would have been raised with me so if for example steve turek has had a fire safety regulation at that time had told the training team that he wanted

02:42:45 wanted a new course for fire safety inspecting officers and he wanted 100 places to be provided over a specified period of time if that hadn't materialized in the final

02:42:56 if that hadn't materialized in the final plan steve would have come to me and said look i asked for this and i haven't got it

02:43:01 got it and i don't want to make cmb sound like a bartering process it you know genuinely wasn't like that but there were mechanisms for um

02:43:09 um or there were opportunities for heads of service to come to their line manager and say look i think this is really important and it's not in the plan or it's not the right priority

02:43:20 plan or it's not the right priority um so there were there were corporate processes

02:43:23 processes for

02:43:24 for assembling a plan which met the priorities that heads of service had discussed with the training team and which

02:43:34 which prioritized them and i i don't recall it but i think it's likely that the plan set out

02:43:41 set out some explanation of the priorities and you know the way they had been determined what involvement if any involvement did the odcb have in

02:43:52 if any involvement did the odcb have in the

02:43:53 the assessment or agreement of the babcock annual training delivery plan i i don't think we we i don't think we did have any involvement in it

02:44:03 in it now can i

02:44:05 now can i take you to your statement please your first statement lfb3032733 page two uh sorry there's a document we're on it's not your statement it's this reference uh terms of reference

02:44:17 reference uh terms of reference um if we just go to the last part of what i've just been reading to you uh where it says decisions arising from this part of the agenda will as appropriate be referred to other departments stroke bodies for action or

02:44:29 departments stroke bodies for action or information for example corporate management board heads of service group were any of the odcb's directions or recommendations mandatory no

02:44:39 no oh oh sorry uh i shouldn't have answered that so quickly um i don't think that's a question we ever asked or answered right

02:44:47 right uh did the odcb ever follow up on these referrals

02:44:55 yes yes so part of the diet process [Music]

02:45:01 [Music] as part of that process we

02:45:05 we take a report from the operational assurance team which made which provided us with information about their observations based on their work as ort

02:45:16 as ort or audits or um

02:45:20 um prcs or pros and you know there's a list there's a list of contributing processes

02:45:31 that resulted in the reports to odcb from operational assurance so

02:45:37 so we would take those reports

02:45:40 i can't think of any occasion where we rejected the recommendations of the operational assurance team about what to take forward as policy

02:45:52 take forward as policy or training that may have happened but i i don't recall any examples of it um

02:45:57 um and

02:45:59 and uh

02:46:00 uh both

02:46:01 both in the olden days the ac training would take that away um and the ac ops procedures would take that away and at the next meeting

02:46:12 at the next meeting they would report back on the action they had taken in order to take forward the matters that we had decided at the previous meeting can we go back to the first page of this document

02:46:24 first page of this document and let's look together at section 2 sources of intelligence and it says there underneath that regular reports and there are five senior accident investigations sai

02:46:36 senior accident investigations sai mobile data terminals impd diot and babcock international and then underneath that as required and there are some more audits of operational professionalism training audits fire

02:46:48 professionalism training audits fire service circulars and other national guidance

02:46:51 guidance changes in legislation fire investigation fi reports fatal fire reviews

02:46:58 reviews now we'll come on later to look at some of those sources in more detail but i'd like to start if i can with d under regular reports diot or diode i think mr graves called

02:47:09 diot or diode i think mr graves called it diot yesterday how was it referred to as far as you know

02:47:16 diot and diode right okay well dynamic and intelligent operational training am i right in saying that i call it diat is a process not an entity or a department

02:47:27 a process not an entity or a department uh yes so it's a policy and a process so uh it it is it is a policy yes right now um if we look at your first witness statement please at lfb32363

02:47:39 statement please at lfb32363 please page five i just want to look at paragraph 17 there just to remind you what you say um

02:47:45 um you say then i'm summarizing that the delivery of of the objectives of diat was the responsibility of the odcb now would it be fair to say that in fact

02:47:57 now would it be fair to say that in fact that the odcb's work was centered around the diot process

02:48:07 yes but not to the but not all-consuming and not to the exclusion of other important

02:48:15 important matters

02:48:16 matters so

02:48:20 so

02:48:24 we've referred to or i've referred to mobile data terminals and the need for odcb to be [Music]

02:48:39 advised as to progress with our objectives for mobile data terminals but [Music]

02:48:47 [Music] sometimes

02:48:49 sometimes important standalone policies or proposed new policies also came to odcb so so yes your point is correct but i wouldn't i wouldn't i

02:49:01 is correct but i wouldn't i wouldn't i wouldn't want you to think that it was the only thing right well my perhaps the full lay in my question but uh that is it right to say that the um that uh the delivery of the dealt objectives was

02:49:13 the delivery of the dealt objectives was the main responsibility of the adc yes can we then look at paragraph 16 and um in the third line there you say and to be fair to you you are quoting

02:49:24 and to be fair to you you are quoting from the diat policy lfb 825 you say in the fourth line the diat process monitors operational health and safety and training performance and identifies

02:49:35 and training performance and identifies positive and developmental trends and provides mechanisms including training developed both internally and externally to support the maintenance of competency for all operational staff

02:49:46 staff and without wishing to be rude what does that mean in real life

02:49:53 um

02:49:58 you see i'm reading it and um it makes it makes sort of perfect sense to me which

02:50:05 which shows something about my incorporation into the work of london fire brigade i uh i guess

02:50:13 is it i mean let me try and help does it simply mean learning from mistakes in fighting fires well certainly learning from mistakes but also learning good things

02:50:24 but also learning good things i think one of the things that the operational assurance department were trying to do

02:50:32 was also to it was also to uh promote good practice um not just as it were deficient practice um

02:50:43 um but yes that that wouldn't be a very unfair summary yeah

02:50:48 i mean we haven't been at this evidence in this module for very long but

02:50:55 but uh people watching it might wonder

02:50:59 wonder why the lfb got itself into a position where it had a sort of juggernaut like of grand structures and nomenclature and initials

02:51:08 initials uh which is quite difficult to penetrate from the from the outside my question did it ever occur to you

02:51:16 you that the structure within which you were working uh was clunky uh and difficult to manage uh where lines of communication didn't work very well

02:51:28 uh and you got enmeshed in it all no

02:51:33 no no

02:51:36 london fire brigade is a complicated organisation often

02:51:43 often necessarily so possibly sometimes unnecessarily so but

02:51:51 but many people in london fire brigade are doing

02:51:55 are doing difficult

02:51:57 difficult intricate

02:51:58 intricate things

02:52:00 things um

02:52:01 um and and you've seen an abundance of that in the inquiry and you know have had already quite a lot to say about it and doubtless will have a lot more to say about it but um

02:52:15 from my own perspective when i joined london fire brigade my local government friends thought you know why why are you doing that you know it's a fire brigade they just send fire engines out to fight fires well it's it's not

02:52:28 out to fight fires well it's it's not like that um it's you know it's a more complicated interesting and difficult organization and

02:52:39 and um

02:52:41 um um things fit together internally in ways that just are much more complicated but

02:52:49 but i i think

02:52:51 i i think that i

02:52:53 that i am inclined to be vigorous about where things have been over complicated i think you know my statement could have been enormously more complicated if i'd still been within london fire brigade

02:53:05 still been within london fire brigade when i prepared it but i i think it's reasonably plain and so my point is that if i i didn't lose any of my old skills when i joined london fire brigade and if i came across things that were

02:53:16 came across things that were ridiculously complicated because that's how they did things then i would have sought to change them so no no i i think it does have problems with vocabulary and acronyms um

02:53:27 with vocabulary and acronyms um and some of it's irritating but more of it is necessary than not i feel thank you well we'll cut we'll let's see how we go with that answer because it may be that um there may be that as we

02:53:39 may be that um there may be that as we go we might find instances but um going back to diat did the dioct process operate like this tell me if this is oversimplifying it miss dexter that the odcb would receive

02:53:52 miss dexter that the odcb would receive reports good or bad from incidents or training events and then consider whether new training or policies were required

02:54:01 required uh

02:54:02 uh rarely from individual incidents but from

02:54:06 from uh

02:54:08 uh from analysis of individual innocent incidents so that's what the operational assurance team would do yes they would you know gather intelligence about

02:54:19 you know gather intelligence about hundreds of incidents in each reporting period

02:54:26 i've lost focus on the question mr millet i'm sorry no i think i've answered it thank you is it right that the odcb's primary output as a result of the diot process was lfb's operational news the

02:54:39 was lfb's operational news the newsletter well operational news plus what went with it um so either the amendments to policies and all the amendments to training yes

02:54:51 and all the amendments to training yes and just focusing on the newsletter and operational users this right was published quarterly but then became i think is it right biennial

02:55:02 i don't think i can speak to frequency uh mr miller i uh

02:55:09 uh somewhere between quarterly and six months later yes it'll be a matter of fact

02:55:13 fact what purpose did operational news serve to communicate in a in a more straightforward way for the benefit of those on

02:55:25 for the benefit of those on fire stations the findings of the operational assurance processes and to

02:55:36 and to provide stations with information about how the brigade intended to respond

02:55:45 respond um but some things were not some some of the things that in that were in operational news were not the product of diet um

02:55:54 diet um so operational news sometimes there was an operational news special so i think there's one about the olympics for example um

02:56:03 um but it also from time to time contained information about

02:56:08 about uh for example new equipment so there would you know there wouldn't have been a need for the new equipment to be part of diat but we might want crews to know that there was new

02:56:19 was new uh new items of equipment and sometimes that would be communicated via operational news right were you aware of other publications we've identified two

02:56:30 other publications we've identified two i think shout and update

02:56:34 uh

02:56:36 you then you've failed to identify safety matters which was another right

02:56:44 shout might have been before my oh it might have been early in my tenure in the brigade um

02:56:52 um in common with everywhere that i've worked you know from time to time there are reviews of uh the communications machinery and uh discussions about what works better

02:57:03 uh discussions about what works better and what works not at all and so over time

02:57:08 over time we took a view about the range of publications and their target audiences and their intended purpose so um i think while i was deputy

02:57:19 so um i think while i was deputy commissioner we certainly emerged safety matters and operational news because of the overlap in content yeah but the relationship with um shout and update i i just can't

02:57:31 with um shout and update i i just can't remember i'm afraid and did did operational news go to the

02:57:37 the um

02:57:38 um operational directorates the staff or senior staff and the operational directorates as opposed to um

02:57:45 um station-based firefighters oh both um yeah it was freely freely available to all right so it was it was it was it's its main target audience was

02:57:56 it's its main target audience was station-based staff but you know it was truly available throughout the whole of the organization and that that distinction didn't exist yeah right and what about update um

02:58:07 um i don't remember update i'm afraid i'm sorry right now let's look at the diot policy which is lfb3055171

02:58:18 uh i'll just show you this um we

02:58:21 we seem to have a blank uh on

02:58:25 uh on the evidence no we don't thank you let's come back very good yeah well there it is um and it's dated the 11th of april 2013 policy 825

02:58:34 825 and if we turn please to page two let's look together at paragraph 1.2 which says the authority has a statutory duty to ensure that all operational staff are trained to undertake their

02:58:45 staff are trained to undertake their role effectively and safely training requirements for operational staff include a number of generic call risk critical skills that all staff must develop and maintain to work effectively in teams and with the communities they

02:58:57 in teams and with the communities they serve these core skills are detailed in policy number 427 the development and maintenance of operational professionalism or daimop now would you agree

02:59:08 now would you agree that

02:59:10 that those two principles identifying risks to operational staff and seeking to provide training were central to the function of the diat

02:59:19 the diat policy and process and the odcb

02:59:36 would you ask that again um will you see i've shown you paragraph 1.2 yes um let me look at 1.5 with you um the diot process enables the effect

02:59:47 um the diot process enables the effect of identification and response to risk critical issues that have the potential to to effect i mean actually affect operational staff looking at that taken together with 1.2 would you agree

03:00:00 taken together with 1.2 would you agree that those two principles risks to operational staff and providing training accordingly were central to the to the to the diod policy yes and central to the extent

03:00:11 policy yes and central to the extent that it was covering diot to the odcb's functions

03:00:15 functions yes yes

03:00:16 yes yes now um

03:00:17 now um on page two while we're on it can we look at paragraph 2.2 under background the various stages of the process can be grouped into the following five main steps

03:00:26 steps and there they are and i'll read them to you because we're going to look at each step in detail as we go through your evidence one gathering and recording two deciding

03:00:36 deciding three acting application four evaluating and five feedback now as i say i want to explore each of those in turn starting with step one

03:00:47 those in turn starting with step one gathering and recording now that step is summarized on page four of this policy if we go to that please we find it on paragraph three point in paragraph 3.1

03:00:59 paragraph 3.1 which says a significant amount of data is used to drive the diot process and allow the identification of initiatives and revised training practices which are necessary to bring

03:01:10 practices which are necessary to bring about performance improvements during the gathering and recording phase a number of processes and electronic systems are used to gather and record information relating to the performance

03:01:21 information relating to the performance of individuals teams and the organization these include and then there's a list

03:01:28 and the first on the list is the incident monitoring process or imp

03:01:36 imp and if you just bear with me look down then at the next paragraph paragraph 3.2 of the policy it says this the imp is a computer-based database that provides a means to record and identify

03:01:48 provides a means to record and identify both positive and developmental trends arising from operational and training events

03:01:53 events information is recorded against a range of defined criteria that describe individual and team performance the database also allows staff to capture information relating to the use and application of operational training

03:02:05 application of operational training equipment and procedures as well as liaison with other agencies such as the london ambulance service and the metropolitan police now

03:02:13 now first is it is it correct that the information in the imp database formed the basis for a number of reports that were received by the odcb yes

03:02:24 yes and the database which i think is called the impd you've referred to it before was actually central to the odcb's analysis of the lfb's operational performance

03:02:35 performance is that right

03:02:40 yes yes it was central but not exclusively so yes no who was responsible for recording information on the impd

03:02:50 the impd the information sorry the incident monitoring process database um

03:02:57 so um a range of people might create records in imp in the incident monitoring process

03:03:08 in the incident monitoring process database um so following

03:03:13 following some but not all i think incidents one

03:03:19 one and or two things would happen first of all there might be a performance review of operations and secondly there might be a performance review of command

03:03:33 performance review of command now

03:03:33 now dave brown and or gary reason will be able to speak with much more authority about these two things then i am able to so my

03:03:44 then i am able to so my insight into the detail of pros and prcs is

03:03:50 is limited

03:03:51 limited so i did from time to time attend

03:03:55 attend both to

03:03:56 both to learn more about what happened right but pros and prcs would generate i can't remember whether they were

03:04:07 i can't remember whether they were described as action points or development points we were always trying to be

03:04:11 to be careful about vocabulary and not

03:04:14 not avoidably impute um failure um but it would there would be as it were a post-mortem of what happened at the incident and in turn that would generate

03:04:27 and in turn that would generate um action points to be taken so the incident commander might say to uh firefighter blogs you know you did that really well and whatever that was would might be

03:04:39 and whatever that was would might be recorded on the database um but um

03:04:43 um but um the incident commander might equally say to firefighter blogs actually you know it might be a good idea if you you know went back and looked at this case study or this item of training or you got some

03:04:56 or this item of training or you got some more experience of you know a or b um so for the individuals involved in the incident there would be a range of observations

03:05:09 there would be a range of observations good or bad and that would be true both of pros and prcs and they would be available on the database for the operational assurance department to review

03:05:18 review can you just help me with this um

03:05:22 um while listening to your answer i've been reading

03:05:24 reading some of the paragraphs here and it prompts me to ask who is this written for

03:05:29 for who's the target audience so to speak um

03:05:34 well it was an internal document i think it i think it was created in 2006 from memory and

03:05:44 and i think it was created in response to um what i would call the bethnal green fire in which two firefighters died and so following that event and they're all 43 from that event

03:05:57 all 43 from that event there was a whole scale rethink about how

03:06:02 how lessons from incidents uh were learnt and diet was introduced i think in 2006.

03:06:12 did mr millett say this was the 2013 version

03:06:16 version um

03:06:17 um uh

03:06:18 uh but it will also have been written with as it were um external readers in mind so the health and safety executive i think

03:06:26 think would be likely to expect a fire brigade to have a written policy of this nature and

03:06:34 and for

03:06:34 for external

03:06:36 external inspection processes for example we always knew that the inspectors would want to see our policy on this that or the other so they were written principally for

03:06:47 they were written principally for internal processes but the process of codification of policies and processes was undoubtedly also important for demonstration of um

03:06:58 um a

03:06:58 a conscientious application of in this case the desire to learn to external organizations to demonstrate somebody's thought about these things yes yes thank you very much can we then

03:07:10 yes yes thank you very much can we then look at paragraph 3.3

03:07:13 which i think enlarges on your answer earlier a little bit more entries on the imp should be the result of exception reporting only i.e where performance of an individual team piece of equipment or

03:07:24 an individual team piece of equipment or organizational issue has either fallen below the required standard or has exceeded expectations monitoring officers must submit entries even if there are no exceptions to report quotes

03:07:35 there are no exceptions to report quotes on quotes the imp database automatically prompts monitoring officers who attended an incident so submit an entry on the inp every seven days until a submission is made

03:07:44 is made and then i'll just look at the next three subparagraphs of the policy all comments on the inp should be discussed with the recipient before prior to recording this does not mean the author requires the recipient's agreement to

03:07:55 requires the recipient's agreement to enter a comment but ensures an open transparent and fair process once submitted each entry is verified and processed by the incident management policy group verified comments relating to the

03:08:07 verified comments relating to the actions of specific individuals are automatically emailed to them and their line manager station manager and above as confirmation in addition the inp comment is automatically added as an observation within the individual's

03:08:19 observation within the individual's personal development plan pdp now it's called exception reporting uh or falling below the required standard

03:08:30 standard how was that defined was there an objective yardstick by by which

03:08:37 which a decision was made to report or when a particular individual or piece of equipment fell below the required standard

03:08:45 standard um

03:08:47 um i i don't know whether there was

03:08:51 there was guidance for those conducting pros to peer or prcs um on that matter it's possible that there was but i simply don't know i'm afraid okay now other than for

03:09:03 afraid okay now other than for monitoring officers is it right i think that the inp was voluntary

03:09:11 well this says not doesn't it because it asks for

03:09:18 asks for nil returns well indeed oh no exceptions to report

03:09:23 to report [Music]

03:09:26 sorry what was your question well my question is other than for monitoring officers for whom imp entries were mandatory but is it right that the inp system was voluntary

03:09:37 voluntary uh not

03:09:40 uh not not quite i don't know if you're going to go to mandatory as an alternative um no there were there were criteria for when a pro or a prc should be conducted

03:09:52 when a pro or a prc should be conducted and there would be an expectation in relation to those that were conducted that as it were output should appear in the database during your your time as deputy commissioner

03:10:05 deputy commissioner uh

03:10:06 uh would you agree that it's take up the use of the imp system uh was poor uh

03:10:15 uh it it certainly was poor initially i believe it you know it got better certainly not to the not to the level that we ideally would want but the operational

03:10:26 ideally would want but the operational assurance team would report to odcb what the take-up was would tell us what the take-up was and at least two things would happen as

03:10:39 and at least two things would happen as a result of that possibly more but but one of the two things was to communicate back to station-based staff via operational news

03:10:51 station-based staff via operational news that

03:10:52 that um

03:10:55 um this was not intended to be um a punitive thing which is which is what was reported as the fear about it that um you might get in trouble if you admitted a fault or a failure so

03:11:08 admitted a fault or a failure so there were there were issues to be dealt with where we tried to provide reassurance and i'm sure you'll have seen that in operational news from time to time there were articles about what the purpose of this process was that it

03:11:20 the purpose of this process was that it was intended to be an organizational and individual improvement process and so we we tried very hard to provide reassurance about that in order to improve the take-up

03:11:31 improve the take-up and so that's one of the two things that happened a second thing that will certainly have happened is that dave brown through his management processes will have tracked

03:11:42 management processes will have tracked that down to lower levels and will have been talking to the deputy assistant commissioners for example about the need to encourage um or require more use

03:11:54 encourage um or require more use um it feels likely to me that it was probably on an agenda for boro commanders uh meetings although i don't know that for sure but we took a range of actions to try and encourage

03:12:05 encourage um more use of the of the database but there was a level of anxiety about what it meant to record a failure as it were let's let's break up that answer into

03:12:16 let's let's break up that answer into some constituent parts but first by looking at a an impd report from september 2014. so only a few months before you left the lfb

03:12:28 you left the lfb it's at lfb four 3067840

03:12:34 and i want to go to page five in that document

03:12:39 uh impd trend analysis reports q4 and q1 january 2014 to june 2014 and as i say this document is dated september take that from me

03:12:51 september take that from me and here you can see on page five a grey pie chart which

03:12:56 which contains

03:12:57 contains details showing that out of 47 105

03:13:03 105 total incidents attended by the nfb one or more inp reports were made in 1679

03:13:10 1679 cases

03:13:11 cases now that's only four percent as a matter of arithmetic of the overall number of the incidents attended isn't it yes so that means doesn't it that some 96 percent the vast majority of lfb

03:13:22 96 percent the vast majority of lfb incidents during that period had no imp report at all

03:13:30 yes would you mind putting the whole the whole page back into it of course you're not quite right let's just look at that um yes

03:13:40 yes those numbers are correct um but can i also point you to um the introduction which says uh the data sets and narratives

03:13:51 uh the data sets and narratives continues to suggest a growing positive improvement in the use of the system the number of entries has again risen so is the quality and the number of positive comments so um i i think it's important to to draw that out but the incidents

03:14:03 to to draw that out but the incidents attended you know overwhelmingly the incidents attended by london fire brigade um

03:14:11 resulting not very much action if any at all um so if this is incidence attended um

03:14:20 um you know this will include incidents where

03:14:23 where appliances arrived and immediately returned for example because the incident was as it were over but it's still an incident in fire brigade recording terms so

03:14:35 so i can't remember what follows whether this analysis um goes more to

03:14:45 a more refined version of incidents um

03:14:53 you're right about the numbers mr millet but i but i would say um you know we were very keen to um encourage more take up and and and you you see that referred to in

03:15:06 and and you you see that referred to in in the introduction i mean

03:15:09 i mean i haven't actually got to asking a question but you you drew attention to

03:15:15 to the positive first paragraph on that page

03:15:18 page um

03:15:20 um whatever the improvement might have been it was starting from at least arithmetically a very low base i don't disagree with you no now and if you do look if you look at the split

03:15:31 look if you look at the split of the incidents uh you've got fires representing some 45 percent

03:15:39 percent so

03:15:40 so of those incidents they were actual fires weren't they well they were mobilized i suspect they were mobilized to a fire

03:15:49 it might be a fire that was out by the time they got there and there was you know what i don't know from this is those incidents where for example no firefighting action was required

03:16:00 firefighting action was required um

03:16:01 um um so i'm just being cautious appropriately i think based on experience about what what the big numbers tell you that is of

03:16:10 is of very much used to you in this context but i'm not disagreeing with your basic proposition that it would it was hard to uh

03:16:19 uh it was hard to encourage um

03:16:22 um uh contributions to this and you know it is likely to be the case and that the overwhelming majority of incidents uh captured by that 47 000 headline um

03:16:35 captured by that 47 000 headline um involved

03:16:36 involved nothing of significance to report um it's not because there were i don't i don't believe it is because there were lots of very important things that were happening that people were avoiding reporting there might have been

03:16:49 avoiding reporting there might have been you know some instances of that in some incidents but you know

03:16:53 you know the 47 000 um headline number is is maybe creating the wrong impression here well let's just look at page one of this document this

03:17:04 this pie chart has forms part of an incident monitoring six monthly report yep uh uh and presented to an odcb meeting uh in september 2014

03:17:17 uh in september 2014 by dac graham ellis from operational assurance can we take it that the odcb of which you were a member would have seen or did see this document

03:17:28 seen or did see this document yes so you would have seen this document yes did you ever ask the question um how is it the case that 96 of incidents have returned no

03:17:39 that 96 of incidents have returned no imp

03:17:40 imp at all

03:17:42 i don't believe i did ask that question miss mr millet for for the reasons i've just explained a because

03:17:53 we would not have been looking for inp contributions on the 47 000 incidents um be because

03:18:04 be because we knew that there was an issue to be worked on in terms of improvement and we were working on it um so no i didn't ask that question no no or i don't

03:18:16 no or i don't to the best of my memory i didn't ask that question september 2014 no no i you know i i received this report in a context of some knowledge about what we were trying to do with impd and and how

03:18:27 were trying to do with impd and and how we were doing um so it it wasn't the first or only report that i received as it as it as it were i had some understanding of you know what was what was beyond that page as it

03:18:38 what was what was beyond that page as it were and those numbers yes and presumably you'd seen earlier reports of this nature yes did nobody at any time ever grapple with with the statistics

03:18:50 grapple with with the statistics that on their face this document to shows you well we grappled with the issue for sure uh so you know the important thing was was the issue and you know they're not

03:19:02 was the issue and you know they're not very you know that's not a very refined statistic um so uh

03:19:10 uh the 47 000 um uh

03:19:13 uh number

03:19:15 number um but

03:19:16 um but i i'm confident it didn't obscure my understanding or the understanding of my colleagues about about what was happening you know we were really clear that we wanted

03:19:27 that we wanted more take-up in the use of impd and and i hope you'll find data that demonstrates that that was successful well mr chairman it's it's a reasonably convenient moment

03:19:38 it's a reasonably convenient moment given that it is one o'clock well if it is a reason it is reasonably convenient i think that's we will be returning to this topic immediately after the breakdown yes well miss dexter we're gonna have a break now so we can all get

03:19:49 gonna have a break now so we can all get some lunch uh we'll resume please at two o'clock

03:19:53 o'clock and as with all other witnesses i must ask you please not to discuss your evidence or anything relating to it with anyone at all while you're out of the room all right thank you very much would you like to go

03:20:05 thank you very much would you like to go with the usher then please just behind him

03:20:18 thank you two o'clock then please