Evidence from LFB's Scott Hayward on fire survival guidance training, role play exercises, and refresher training delivery. Focus on training records, CBT packages, and compliance with national guidance FSC 1093.
00:00:23 would you ask mr hayward to come back in please
00:00:36 all right mr tapeword you ready to go hi medisa thank you thank you very much yes mr miller chairman thank you very much mr hayden we were in the middle of uh role play or the topic at least um can we please go to lfb three zeroes five
00:00:49 we please go to lfb three zeroes five five two two zero uh and look again at the draft of uh station manager ned kelly's report of the 3rd of august 2010 at page six
00:01:00 the 3rd of august 2010 at page six this is another of the drafts and under the heading assessments and results recording we have the following text the final session of the day
00:01:12 the final session of the day was practical role play again this session meets the requirements of the emergency call handling techniques and first survival guidance training document
00:01:21 document and then a paragraph 41 you see at the foot of the screen whilst the assessor doesn't does provide some measure of performance assessment of candidates during this role play it is carried out in a very informal manner there is no documented list of expected actions
00:01:33 documented list of expected actions behaviors against which candidates performance should be measured nor are there any records of performance documented at the time or after the role play this may potentially expose the brigade should such records wish to be
00:01:45 brigade should such records wish to be scrutinized at a later date and then i'll ask you to turn the page to 40 42 and 43. we'll look at those together 42
00:01:56 furthermore candidates are exposed to only one role play scenario whilst there are limitations on the course in terms of time it should be recognized that such role play play
00:02:07 recognized that such role play play plays
00:02:08 plays such role plays provide candidates opportunity to a demonstrate that they have achieved the learning outcomes of the course and to be demonstrate under controlled conditions their current level of performance as such every
00:02:20 level of performance as such every effort should be made to ensure that candidates are given the fullest opportunity to demonstrate both a and b and that suitable records of achievement are being kept observed candidates have commented that the role plays they
00:02:32 commented that the role plays they undertook were quotes fairly straightforward close quotes and quotes not particularly challenging close quotes opportunity therefore exists to strengthen the performance assessment element of the course this may include
00:02:45 element of the course this may include lengthening the course to provide candidates with more exposure to role play scenarios building a robust expected actions and behaviors assessment recording sheet providing extra assessors during the role play elements providing training
00:02:57 role play elements providing training performance recording recommendations of paragraph 45 review the role play element of the course and ensure that a robust assessment and recording process is
00:03:08 assessment and recording process is implemented
00:03:11 now against that background this is as i say
00:03:15 say august 2010 was the role play element for the fsg training reviewed in or after 2010 once this audit report had been circulated i believe it was i believe there were
00:03:28 fsg role play scripts written for it were any of the four bullet points of paragraph 44 taken on board well i don't believe we lengthened the course because the course was considered long enough
00:03:41 the course was considered long enough right um we did do assessment and feedback for um control staff which we didn't have before um
00:03:50 um we didn't provide extra assessors during the role payments because i didn't have the ability at that time to do that back then
00:03:57 then but you could you could have done you would have done had you had you had the the resources yes right um well potentially we could have done uh
00:04:07 uh improved training performance recording well
00:04:09 well we've been over this yesterday didn't worry about the recording yes we would like to have done that and we were making
00:04:15 making headway in getting that sorted out but at that stage it was still very much a manual manual process right now if we go to lfb3055192 this is the minute
00:04:26 lfb3055192 this is the minute of the latin house board meeting the following month 15th of september 2010
00:04:34 and we can see that you were present at the latin house board meeting and if you go please to page two you'll see
00:04:43 see item 5.8
00:04:44 item 5.8 which says this lfb training came to audit control training team they recommended introducing role play on a number of call types do you remember who provided
00:04:55 call types do you remember who provided that update was it you it could have been me yeah if i if i may have given that and was was the reference there to auditing the control
00:05:06 reference there to auditing the control training team a reference to station manager kelly's audit yes i believe it was do you remember what was discussed at this meeting about the recommendations for role play i do not
00:05:17 i do not we're station manager kelly's specific suggestions about strengthening the role play discussed such as for example increasing the time uh available for the course i i don't i don't believe it was right
00:05:29 don't believe it was right do you remember what the outcome of this meeting was so far as concerns his recommendations that we've just looked at i i think we took those recommendations away and we're looking at how we can implement them
00:05:41 them right can you look at paragraph 5.5 at the top of the screen it says a full day of refresher training has been introduced half of which is delivered by the fire safety team role play has also been introduced
00:05:53 been introduced now that's correct is it always correct at the time yes and we'll come back to that in due course but the full day of refresher training is that a reference to what we saw earlier yes i believe it was
00:06:06 what we saw earlier yes i believe it was uh as of september 2010 and the chris sharp emails yes and the nine topics and this and the six i believe yes right
00:06:13 yes right then let's move on to pre-inquest action 12. we'll come back to this meeting in due course pre-act pre-inquest action 12 is development of refresher fsg training
00:06:25 is development of refresher fsg training and i want to ask you first about the topic of the biennial plan for refresher training
00:06:30 training can we start by looking at the latin assurance report from august 2018 lfb404801
00:06:37 lfb404801 page 14 action 12 right hand column which says this establish a recurring program of first survival guidance refresher training in accordance with the national guidance for all peasant
00:06:48 the national guidance for all peasant control personnel and then underneath that it says the national guidance fire service circular 1093 training of fire control staff promotes continuation training which it
00:07:00 promotes continuation training which it describes as quotes further continuation training should be carried out progressively with the aim of improving skills and knowledge gradually close quotes
00:07:10 quotes the guidance also recommends that unwatched refresher training should be given to all fire control staff on a systematic basis ie should be both scheduled and monitored national guidance recommends that
00:07:22 national guidance recommends that refresher training should be delivered no more than every 12 months uh um can we go and look at the fire service 1093 again please that's at
00:07:33 service 1093 again please that's at lfb403617
00:07:36 lfb403617 i've shown you that let's just see what fire service circular 1093 says about it there it is if we go to page one paragraph five it's headed initial stroke recruit
00:07:47 it's headed initial stroke recruit training
00:07:49 training and if you look at paragraph six at the bottom of the screen just above the green label it says this recruits with between eight and twelve weeks of service who have gained some initial call handling experience should
00:08:00 initial call handling experience should be given further training in emergency call handling techniques and fast survival guidance to enable them when dealing with callers who are trapped in domestic accommodation to get to make a proper assessment of the situation give
00:08:12 proper assessment of the situation give appropriate advice where necessary and otherwise assist in minimizing the hazard to the caller an example of an appropriate training program is given at appendix b
00:08:23 program is given at appendix b now let's look at appendix b this is on page six
00:08:31 and that is entitled emergency call handling techniques fire survival guidance
00:08:37 guidance and there we can see that it sets out the fsg training yes yes and there are the nine subjects that we've seen before yes we saw them i think listed in the 1994
00:08:49 we saw them i think listed in the 1994 keeping people safe document and some element of them also listed in christine sharp's email of the 10th of march 2010 yes yes
00:09:00 2010 yes yes and
00:09:01 and if you look at the structure it says the training should be presented jointly by fire control and fire safety personnel and should comprise a lecture session of one to one and a half hours
00:09:13 session of one to one and a half hours followed by a practical role play session to confirm the instruction and then you've then got the nine topics if we go back to page two of this document
00:09:22 document we have paragraph seven which relates to continuation training there at the top of your screen and it says this following completion of initial training when the recruit is attached to the watch further continuation training
00:09:34 the watch further continuation training should be carried out progressively with the aim of improving skills and knowledge gradually this should include the training set out in appendix b so once again it's right isn't it that we see a reference to the fsg training
00:09:45 we see a reference to the fsg training and appendix b on page six yes yes yes and that's the reviews that's the section of the national guidance that the assurance review we looked at as stated as part of the guidance for refresher training
00:09:57 guidance for refresher training yes yes yes and looping all of those things together it's right isn't it uh that it was an expectation in the national guidance that the refresher training would take
00:10:08 that the refresher training would take the same form as the initial training namely a one to one and a half hour lecture with a practical role play uh
00:10:17 uh well no because the refresher training was to be a full day's training rather than the what what they're proposing there is an hour an hour and a half of
00:10:26 half of um
00:10:27 um lectures by fire safety and control staff and then um
00:10:34 um a role play we extended that by giving more um more time to go through the presentations and fire safety and to do the role play yes leaving aside the point about one to one
00:10:46 leaving aside the point about one to one and a half hours then um would you accept that the refresher training would require practical role play yes the same way the initial training yes yes
00:10:57 initial training yes yes now if you go to page three we can see another reference to refresher training this is watch refresher training it is recommended that on-watch refresher training should be given to all fire control staff on a systematic basis i.e
00:11:10 control staff on a systematic basis i.e it should be both scheduled and monitored the subject matter will depend on local circumstances but emphasis should be given to little used procedures or areas of weakness would you agree that far survival
00:11:22 would you agree that far survival guidance was a little used procedure
00:11:27 no i wouldn't say it was a little used it was certainly in london we had five survival guidance calls um
00:11:35 um more frequent than you would you would think
00:11:38 think so i don't think it was a it was a it was you know compared to a normal fire call then yes it was but i don't think it was it was a rare a rare call
00:11:49 a rare call well the evidence received by this inquiry at phase one rather than me going through it but would you agree tended to indicate that looking at the experience of those in
00:12:00 looking at the experience of those in the control room on the night of the 14th of june 2017
00:12:05 was pretty thin when it came to far survival guidance very few of them had had done any live live calls yes oh no yeah i agree
00:12:17 live live calls yes oh no yeah i agree with that the fact that the the you know every officer in the room has not necessarily taken a live call but there are other offs there that have taken four or five in that time but i take your point yes now we don't need to
00:12:28 take your point yes now we don't need to go to it but it was it was the keeping people safe 1994 home office guidance wasn't it that recommended that refresher training was carried out at intervals of no more than 12 months yes i believe it was yes
00:12:41 i believe it was yes in other words um you couldn't let more than 12 months go by before doing the next round of refresher training
00:12:48 training that was yes that was in your guidance let's just look at your first witness statement please page 24 paragraph 68
00:13:06 uh and you say uh
00:13:09 uh halfway through the third line from the from the bottom of the paragraph on 15 september 2010 the board agreed a program
00:13:16 program of fsg refresher training to take place every two years with a full day's fsg training in year one and a cbt training package in year two
00:13:28 and a cbt training package in year two now that's what you say there let's look at the minutes of that board meeting that lack of house board meeting if we can
00:13:35 can um
00:13:37 um but before we do that there's a run-up which is the earlier meeting in june of that year 2010. lfb 3-0 is 55208 please this is the lachlan house board meeting
00:13:49 this is the lachlan house board meeting of the 22nd of june 2010. you can see on uh page one halfway down the list just below halfway down the list you were in attendance yes yes uh
00:14:00 list you were in attendance yes yes uh and if we go to page three you can see paragraph 8.7 which says this annual refresher training in line with fsc 1093 is being planned and the expectation is that all
00:14:11 planned and the expectation is that all control staff will receive a bi-annual day refresher with the training team and an on watch package including an e-learning package from fire safety and confirmation of learning
00:14:24 confirmation of learning first did you provide that update to the board yes you did so it looks from this meeting minute that the bi-annual refresh fsg refresher fsg training was going to be one full day with the
00:14:36 going to be one full day with the training team and the non-watch package which included e-learning from fire safety that's basically what it says yeah so so yeah year one would be one day the one day and then year two would
00:14:47 day the one day and then year two would be
00:14:48 be the cbt or you know the um yes yes the e-learning package yeah by biannual did you did you mean biennial
00:15:00 biennial yeah well so so uh yes uh so year one would be the full day year two would be a learning package year three would be a full day yes yes you didn't mean that
00:15:11 full day yes yes you didn't mean that this was going to be delivered twice a year but once every two years yes yes and the confirmation of learning what was that
00:15:17 was that that was just feedback from staff and they got a question a question set at the end just to confirm understanding
00:15:26 yes now then let's go to the 15th of september 2010 minute for the latin house board meeting that you refer to in your paragraph and your first witness statement at paragraph 68 and you can see there that
00:15:39 paragraph 68 and you can see there that on page
00:15:41 on page one you were in attendance just wait for that to appear on your screen
00:15:47 screen there you are two thirds of the way down the list of attendees yes if we go to page two paragraph 5.5
00:16:04 i'm sorry that's paragraph 8 top bottom of page two control scott hayward yes uh and
00:16:12 uh and uh if you go to page three paragraph eight point seven
00:16:19 you can see that it says annual refresher training in line with fsc 1093 is being planned and the expectation is that all control staff will receive a bi-annual one-day refresher with the training team and an
00:16:31 refresher with the training team and an on-watch package including an e-learning package from fire safety and confirmation of learning is that is that a is that what you were referring to in your statement yes
00:16:48 and uh again i imagine it was you who provided that update is that yes i believe so yeah
00:16:59 um was it intended that a full day's refresher training would always be delivered as to half by the fire safety team
00:17:08 team they would provide they will provide their presentation whether that took half a day um i don't think it did take half a day i think it was an hour and a half we've questions
00:17:19 questions um but yes there were to be part of that team
00:17:22 team part of the delivery right uh and did that include or was intended to include role play stage yes
00:17:30 stage yes was there any discussion at this meeting about the content of the refresher training
00:17:34 training not not that i can recall there's no mention in this update that the full day refresher training would take place one on in year one and cbt in year two is there
00:17:46 year two is there no but that was the that was the understanding in fact the only place i think we see a reference to cbt is in the action plan attached to this meeting minute uh at page eight if we can go to that
00:17:59 uh at page eight if we can go to that you agree we'll just go to that and see if you agree hey jade
00:18:10 uh perhaps i can
00:18:22 can i perhaps go to a different document and i've been asking you questions i'm afraid it's my fault on the wrong minute can we go to lfb 30s 55192
00:18:43 there is the 15th of september 2010 minute you are in attendance yes if you go to five four at the bottom of page one you can see it says fsg training has been reviewed to ensure it fully aligns with 1093 subject recommendations made
00:18:55 with 1093 subject recommendations made to clg all control staff have now received refresher training in fsg that is that a reference to what we saw this morning i believe so yes uh namely the the um large list of names attached
00:19:07 the the um large list of names attached to the email yes we need to be brought in for refresher training september 2010. yes and again did you provide that update
00:19:15 update me or joanne yes yes uh and you could see the reference this time too
00:19:21 time too to
00:19:21 to uh
00:19:22 uh refresher training in fsg did that include role play i believe it did yes uh
00:19:30 uh now there's no mention here about cbt as you as there wasn't in the june version this time this reference i hope is correct there is a reference to cbt in
00:19:42 correct there is a reference to cbt in the action plan attached to this minute and that is at page eight if we go to that
00:19:51 um where you can see row 12 fsg refresher training acsd
00:19:58 15 9 10 15 september 2010 initial training on fsg is now provided later in induction training see that yes uh and
00:20:10 uh and if you look at
00:20:14 road 12 same date refresher training provided to all control staff consideration being given to how this is completed in future years it may include computer-based training and step records and there's
00:20:27 training and step records and there's the reference to cbt was the cbt training still only being considered at that meeting it looks to be the case there yeah so it wasn't already enshrined as it were in the training arrangements at
00:20:39 it were in the training arrangements at that stage it was still only under consideration uh well i think i think it was i think it was being developed at this point so we were we were going down the road of getting getting something um
00:20:52 of getting getting something um you know having our documentation put into a learning package yes but it exactly but it wasn't enshrined it was already rolled out no can we then look at the next board meeting minute this is 8th of november
00:21:04 meeting minute this is 8th of november 2010 at
00:21:14 lfb3055213 and we can see that both you and johannes de bards were present yep and if we turn please to the bottom of the page or scroll
00:21:25 to the bottom of the page or scroll to the bottom of the page we can see paragraph 4.6 action point 12 refresher training the bulk of this is complete training is being completed for any staff on sick etc when the original training was carried out a
00:21:36 training was carried out a computer-based training cbt package for 2011 is now being formulated every other year the full package will be used with a refresher cbt course in between all training records have been
00:21:47 between all training records have been transferred onto step we saw that that part yesterday um
00:21:53 um on this topic was this the meeting where the biennial training package was put forward to the board
00:21:59 board it looks as if it was is that is that the case i'm not i'm not sure we we sold it as as the biannual but it we talked about um
00:22:10 um you know one year full full day and then a the e-learning the following year right so the alternating yes approach that was discussed was it i i i it was discussed at the board meeting whether
00:22:22 discussed at the board meeting whether it was this board meeting i i can't i can't confirm but it was discussed at a board meeting right now was it intended that in the years when there would be cbt only if you like
00:22:34 cbt only if you like still under formulation as we can see that would nonetheless still involve role play or was it discussed and agreed that it was only in the year when you had a full training
00:22:46 the year when you had a full training plan or a
00:22:47 plan or a full training day that there would be role play i think at this time the the full day would be the uh role play and the e learning package would have a
00:22:59 would have a um a confirmation of understanding questionnaire at the end so there'd be no it would be you know staff on their own not trainer-led
00:23:12 and that would not involve role-play no by definition correct
00:23:17 correct was that
00:23:18 was that structure of a proposed structure approved by the latin house board at this meeting uh
00:23:28 i don't know whether it was approved it's it's it's minuted there that that's what we will be doing um i don't i don't recall it being it being
00:23:39 it being it being turned down at all no um to be fair to you this is under the heading minutes of last meeting so this looks like an update yes do you remember whether the update which i think was given by you
00:23:51 i think was given by you was uh
00:23:53 was uh met with uh approval or disapproval i i i it wasn't i don't think was met with any any i think i just gave an update and that was that was it i believe was there any discussion at the meeting
00:24:04 there any discussion at the meeting about whether what you were proposing there complied with or was consistent with national guidance not specifically but they would have expected it will comply with our gap
00:24:15 expected it will comply with our gap analysis in 1093. right
00:24:20 right but it wouldn't would it because if you were only going to be rolling out cbt with no role play every other year that would mean that more than one year had gone past without role play well it's a role it's a
00:24:31 role play well it's a role it's a rolling year i mean that that's why it was it was discussed to do it this particular way because of the the amount of staff that we needed to roll through um
00:24:40 um you'd be rolling for all those staff and then run that run that from the beginning again so it seemed um this is why the proposal was to do the e-learning package
00:24:51 e-learning package uh in the intervening years to allow for other training to take place because if we didn't we'd be just continually doing that one type of training
00:25:01 training yes but the one type of training the face-to-face training if you like which had was the only one that had the role play would only happen once every two years
00:25:09 years yes for anybody yes so so at this stage that was that this was agreed that we that this is what it would be yeah and the epac e-learning package didn't have role play
00:25:20 e-learning package didn't have role play yes and the point i'm putting to you is that that structure where role play was only every two years as opposed to annual would not meet the national guidance would it which required not less than 12 months
00:25:31 which required not less than 12 months to go by
00:25:32 to go by um
00:25:34 um in if explicit on the guidance then no but it was guidance and we and we took it the fact that we'll do this process because the number of staff we had right
00:25:45 right you say because of the number of staff we had was that bearing in mind the date this is late 2010 was that the reasoning behind the decision to to make this training part
00:25:56 decision to to make this training part of a two-year side no i i i can't recall exactly i mean that would have been certainly one of the one of the issues what were the others what was the overall reasoning behind the decision to make
00:26:06 make this training part of a two-year cycle i i don't i don't recall
00:26:16 and i i take it that you don't recall why it was thought appropriate to deliver cbg training without role play in the second year when it was required annually by the national guidance
00:26:28 no i can't answer that
00:26:32 now at the time this update was provided to the lack of house board in november 2010 was it intended that the full days training would involve a repeat of the initial training packages we looked at earlier remember those six training
00:26:44 earlier remember those six training packages we saw before lunch or was the idea that they would be tailored
00:26:49 tailored to take account of the fact that control officers would would have received the presentation or supposed to have done the year before no they would receive the presentation um the only one they wouldn't receive
00:27:01 um the only one they wouldn't receive would be the behaviours one at this meeting as you can see from the screen action point 12 refresher training the bulk of this is complete um
00:27:12 um do you know why it was marked as complete given that the refresher training was ongoing
00:27:20 no i think i think it's saying there that refresher training the bulk of the training is complete not not that it's actually complete it's just that that we've completed a good proportion of that training for the staff
00:27:31 staff i see so it's not about we've completed the training i see what you mean so so that means the belt the bulk of the staff has been refresher trained not the bulk of the training yes i see um
00:27:43 bulk of the training yes i see um can we look at the uh lachenal control report of two years later twin november 2012 at home quadruple zero one one two four
00:27:54 uh we can see that the coroner uh page 53
00:27:59 53 the coroner was told the following we may want to start at the bottom of page 52 just to give you the full context
00:28:08 this is recommendation 4 with regard to fire survival guidance training specifically this should be reviewed to more fully reflect national guidance and current fire safety advice
00:28:20 guidance and current fire safety advice and any specific issues arising from the gap analysis included in this report this should include a review of training for
00:28:27 for etc and then action 4.1 at the foot of your screen completed recruit ceo fsg training was reviewed and updated in late 2009 and delivered from 2010
00:28:39 delivered from 2010 fsg training has been moved from week five of the old training course two week return on the page nine of the new training course presumably as day 43 uh or thereabouts for the new cas to
00:28:50 uh or thereabouts for the new cas to give trainees more experience of live calls before they undertake fsg training
00:28:58 and then we see action four two completed a program of refresher continuation training was implemented for all in post ceos between may and august 2010 continuation training is provided
00:29:10 continuation training is provided annually to all control staff over a two-year cycle with year one being a trainer-led course and two-year and year two being a computer-based training course the training includes a
00:29:21 a role-play to ensure confirmation of learning was introduced into training this allows all new and existing staff to experience a number of fsg call scenarios in a safe and supportive environment
00:29:32 environment b inputs from fire safety officers covering aspects of building design and construction coupled with current fire safety advice to educate ceos on fire
00:29:43 safety advice to educate ceos on fire behavior and building types c fsg training has been extended to encompass whole day training and then action 4.3 is supervisors and we'll come back to that later
00:29:54 we'll come back to that later [Music]
00:29:56 [Music] now the update there
00:29:59 there was the same as that provided to the lack of house board in november 2010 wasn't it
00:30:06 wasn't it essentially i believe so now let's just examine uh this
00:30:15 uh
00:30:18 before i do do you accept on the basis of what we've looked at so far
00:30:24 that the role play referred to in a
00:30:29 is not stated only to be delivered in the year where there is a trainer-led course in other words it's not clear is it from
00:30:40 in other words it's not clear is it from a that the role play is only every other year
00:30:45 year no it i mean it says the training includes it's not it doesn't include all training there so my interpretation training includes it includes role play but and and we do do
00:30:56 includes role play but and and we do do role player year one but not not during the e-learning package i mean given the prominence of role play annually which is accorded to it by the 1993
00:31:07 which is accorded to it by the 1993 circular and the 1994 home office keeping people safe document can you explain why uh action four two and particularly a doesn't spell out to the reader one of whom would have been the coroner
00:31:19 whom would have been the coroner that role play was only every other year not in accordance uh or inconsistently with the national guidance you know i cannot explain it should have done shouldn't it
00:31:31 it should have done shouldn't it well
00:31:33 well my interpretation is is the fact that the role play is included in training um
00:31:41 um but not for but we don't do role play for the e-learning we use another method of confirmation of training
00:31:52 now there's three elements there are elements i want to focus on as we then roll through the years and i want to start
00:31:58 start by looking at the first intervening year if i can if we take 2010 2010 as the first year we then have the first cbt year as 2011.
00:32:09 year as 2011. i'm going to ask you a little bit about that
00:32:11 that am i right first in in thinking that uh as i think you confirmed earlier 2011 was going to be the first year that cbt training was going to be delivered that's correct yes
00:32:22 but in fact it's right isn't it that even in 2011 the cbt package was still under development that's correct and therefore the training would have to be delivered by staff accessing powerpoint
00:32:33 by staff accessing powerpoint presentations that's correct was the training that took place in 2011 the same or substantially similar to the training that was developed for the initial fsg training which we had already looked at that would have been
00:32:44 already looked at that would have been the same presentations same yes so that's the four but yes sorry i was going to say but not train and lead it would have been they would have been them just looking for those presentations exactly and to be clear
00:32:57 presentations exactly and to be clear they will be looking unlead through four presentations one call handling techniques two uh building presentation three behavior of fire presentation and four uh
00:33:09 presentation and four uh first survival guidance presentation that is my understanding yeah and the staff would access it really by way of self-study yes you'd go on a desktop in the yeah
00:33:18 yeah at the isle of dogs or merton but yes they've moved there yes
00:33:23 yes now in that year presumably they did this in their own time did they no it had been done on watch during a quite period
00:33:29 period was any time directed to by the aoms it was on watch training so it had been allocated by them the fault is my in my question in my own time on on the watch
00:33:41 time on on the watch yes
00:33:42 yes so
00:33:43 so can i just ask each of you to let the other finish the remark or evidence as a question or evidence because i think transcribers find it quite difficult as a tendency to overlap yes certainly mr chairman on for
00:33:54 overlap yes certainly mr chairman on for my part it was an excess of enthusiasm uh
00:33:58 uh at the understanding and understanding the evidence can i ask you was any time allocated to cross to allow them to
00:34:09 allow them to access the cbd package while on watch what the expectation would be that the aoms would allocate them that time at a suitable time on the watch
00:34:21 at a suitable time on the watch and how did that fit in with their work patterns
00:34:24 patterns because they had the short um this is 2012 so they had a short shift at that point so there'll be a four hour period
00:34:31 period over that short shift to which to allocate training how long or how much was allocated i'm i'm i can't i can't remember i'm not sure
00:34:41 sure and you said an hour hour and a half right
00:34:45 right you said in your earlier answer this was 2012 i'm to be clear we're talking about 2011.
00:34:50 2011. oh sorry 2011. yeah so april 2011 we would have been in the new shift pattern so the short shift would have been would have been in in place by then right
00:35:01 right and what about before april there's any cbt rolled out
00:35:07 or powerpoint presentations rolled out to control room operators i'm not i'm not sure whether there's any at that before that time but if they would have been on that time they were on the old shift pattern they would have found
00:35:18 old shift pattern they would have found they would have found some time at quiet period to allow staff to to walk away and go and do that even if it was ones or twos it didn't need to be a group because it was self-study can we go to lfb
00:35:30 can we go to lfb triple zero two eight three seven eight
00:35:40 and if you go to page two in that email run you'll see an email from nikki o'shea or nicola o'shea on the 24th of june 2011
00:35:49 june 2011 to gvp all control staff about
00:35:54 about refresher training and we know you saw this because if you look uh um up if we scroll up page two you'll see an email from you to lindsay
00:36:06 you'll see an email from you to lindsay turner and joanne debards essentially forwarding this email on in which you say lindsay i would like to see a time constraint on this we would want the watchers to have completed
00:36:18 want the watchers to have completed training by in my view the end of august so we see you see that now can we look at her email which starts at the bottom of page two just look down at that and then go over
00:36:29 just look down at that and then go over to page three and if we look halfway down page three
00:36:37 there's a longish paragraph
00:36:41 it starts ost training can you see that yes i can and if you pick it up halfway through the paragraph nikki o'shea says this additionally practice sheets have been designed to be
00:36:52 practice sheets have been designed to be used by supervisors for an interactive exercise at the end of the refresher course the sheets will be stored by ost training and supervisors will be given hands-on training and guidance before they conduct the exercises
00:37:04 they conduct the exercises the presentations and practice sheets form the required content of the refresher course staff are required to complete all sections and record the training in the following places a
00:37:15 a the spreadsheet currently being used to record all of training within the control found under brigade control stroke operations support team straight training or watches stroke training recording sheet which is pausing there
00:37:27 recording sheet which is pausing there am i writing thinking that that is essentially a a computer uh yeah it's a training it's a training drive a training drive b the course attendance sheet which is located in the
00:37:38 attendance sheet which is located in the same place as the presentations this will allow ost and oms to easily check the progress of training and if any assistance is required to complete the training by ost
00:37:49 complete the training by ost there is also a feedback document on the site which will be explained to supervisors by ost trainers during their hands-on session
00:37:58 and then she identifies the content of the course and we can see the the first four bullet points
00:38:04 points are the first four or are the four presentations that we discussed earlier aren't they yes uh now what was the interactive exercise that she refers to
00:38:16 that she refers to in the first of the paragraphs i read to you
00:38:23 i presume that would be the call practice
00:38:26 practice the call practice what's that called practice so a script scripts
00:38:33 so talking talking through um fsg scripts by the look of it look at the survival rift that would be that wouldn't be part of the cbt there would it
00:38:45 the cbt there would it uh well it appears that they what they've done they've rather than as a confirmation of understanding they've pulled the riff the riff up they've got a cool practice script and they they walk through the script while
00:38:57 they they walk through the script while going through the riff and that bit the confirmation understanding being able to ask questions
00:39:03 is the idea here reading that paragraph as a whole which starts ost training that that
00:39:09 that control room operators could access these presentations on their own and just look through them but could also do it with as part of a team yes and have role play as part of that
00:39:22 and have role play as part of that using using uh well as an interactive exercise they could do yes did they i i i can't i can't remember who would just who would decide
00:39:34 just who would decide whether on a particular day there should be an interactive exercise the it's on watch training it'll be decided by the operations manager in the aom to decide what training takes place on watch
00:39:47 and was there any supervision exercised by you to make sure that as much interaction as possible was being
00:39:56 being not personal not personally by me no why is that
00:40:00 is that because i had a senior operations manager training and a training team to be able to do that and do you know to the best of your knowledge whether that was done
00:40:08 was done not that far back no
00:40:11 but i'd like to think it was a lot of work was done to to get this where it was right
00:40:16 was right now if we scroll down to the bottom of the screen you'll see that the course content is identified we looked at the first four asterisks a little bit earlier there's then
00:40:27 little bit earlier there's then supervisor far survival guidance which is new and then there's something called call practice were you referring to that yes the four scripts envy these will be given to supervisors individually by ost training
00:40:40 supervisors individually by ost training is that what you were referring to as the interactive exercise i believe so yes i see
00:40:44 yes i see but that would be interactive using the cbt package or apart from the cbt package
00:40:51 package using the cbt package and the riff so it's a conf it looks like it's a confirmation of understanding right so they'd go through the they'd go through the presentations they would then pull up the survival riff get the scripts up
00:41:03 up the survival riff get the scripts up and work for the scripts and using the riff to guide them through was there any uh assessment done by the supervisors uh or by the som in charge of those
00:41:14 or by the som in charge of those exercises
00:41:16 exercises or for the individuals yes well that that had been done by the supervisors on watch
00:41:23 but was it assessed what by by the supervisors on watch was the performance of the crows in the core practice which was scripted uh assessed by the the supervisors on
00:41:35 uh assessed by the the supervisors on watch i would suggest not if they're talking for the rift because it's already in front of them so this is simply practicing what's in the riff is it it's a confirmation of understanding yes a confirmation of understanding
00:41:49 was there any feedback ever offered either to the soms or to you about those exercises feedback what uh feedback was um we introduced a feedback system so
00:42:00 um we introduced a feedback system so that staff who've done the courses could feed back to rst there was a standard form created now we can see that you respond to this email as i showed you
00:42:12 email as i showed you uh if you go up the email and up the email chain please to page two top of page two
00:42:18 page two uh you say as i've shown you i would like to see a time constraint on this we want we would want the watches to have completed training by in my view the end of august does that explain what
00:42:29 the end of august does that explain what is said in the assurance review that we saw earlier about training being completed in 2011 between july and september
00:42:37 september remember i showed you that you did show me that i i i don't know i mean i think i think we were looking at the time constraints here is because we were preparing to move into merton so there'd been a lot of work that we needed to
00:42:48 been a lot of work that we needed to prepare before the move now
00:42:51 now that is
00:42:52 that is the 2011 course content can i then turn to the question of delivery of that content in 2011. can we go to your second witness statement please at page 12 paragraph
00:43:03 statement please at page 12 paragraph 64.
00:43:12 the question at 6b is please explain how it was ensured that staff accessed the powerpoint presentations during 2011 where the staff were audited and by whom whether any training records were
00:43:23 whether any training records were created and please exhibit copies of the same
00:43:26 same your answer is it is my understanding that ost notified staff of where they could access the powerpoint training presentation and the supervisors who were on watch were responsible for ensuring that the training was completed
00:43:38 ensuring that the training was completed did you monitor whether the training was completed by staff not personally no why is that
00:43:45 because i i was busy doing up other things and i delegated that role down to the som training right did you monitor how the som was overseeing that training being completed by staff no but i expected if
00:43:57 completed by staff no but i expected if there were issues that the son would report to me i see so that's that's reporting again by exception yes i see were you ever sent any kind of report or update or message by your supervisors as to how it was
00:44:09 by your supervisors as to how it was going possibly but i don't recall did you ever look at the training records such as those that are referred to by nicola o'shea in her june email we've just been looking at i have seen the training records but but not you know not specifically to
00:44:21 but but not you know not specifically to look at this particular item right did you ever have dip into them just did spot check uh
00:44:28 uh not i don't believe i did back then no no
00:44:31 no did you receive any feedback on the training exercises and in particular the i call it role play but the interactive element the call scripts not that i recall now if we go to your first statement
00:44:43 now if we go to your first statement please
00:44:45 please we can see paragraph 74 at page 26.
00:44:54 and this is a paragraph we're going to come to
00:44:57 come to a number of times mr hayward it's a table as you say of fsg training during 2011 to 2017 if we look at it we can see that for 2011 2011 there were 121 staff
00:45:13 that for 2011 2011 there were 121 staff of whom 114 were trained which accounted for 94 percent is that a figure that you were aware of at the time or did you only learn that
00:45:25 at the time or did you only learn that figure when you prepared this statement i when i prepared the statement why did you not know that at the time because i didn't recall i had to go through the training records
00:45:36 through the training records did you not monitor at least the debate the raw numbers for take up uh
00:45:44 uh at the time possibly but no i wouldn't remember it from back then no
00:45:48 no at the time did you have a system whereby you would regularly calculate or be asked for calculations as to the take-up no why is that
00:45:59 why is that again because if i if if there was something if it wasn't being done i'd be notified right and and at this time at this time now there were other um priorities which
00:46:10 there were other um priorities which which took me away from doing that specifically do you know how such a relatively good turnout for that training was achieved in that year
00:46:25 yes we took the staff i believe we took the staff off you took the staff off watch yes could you just explain that a little bit more for me i
00:46:46 well prior to eight no so post april they would have done it in the four hour slot
00:46:51 slot that were allocated to them so from april or a new shift pattern
00:46:58 right did you notice at the time any change in the uptake after april 2011 and the change in the shift patterns compared with the uptake
00:47:10 shift patterns compared with the uptake before april no i don't i don't recall
00:47:16 is it i don't want you to speculate if you don't know but is it possible that the reason why there was 94 uptake in 2011 was that one third of that year
00:47:28 in 2011 was that one third of that year uh or during one-third of that yeah you you were you were on the old shift pattern
00:47:37 um not necessarily no
00:47:42 i mean because the old shift pattern whilst whilst the staffing was 24 um our
00:47:49 um our uh abstraction rate which is those that are on leave et cetera would take us down to 16 and two of the aoms would be operating out stratfor at that time so in actual fact in the control room there have been
00:48:01 fact in the control room there have been 14 members of staff and two over at stratford so so that it wouldn't have affected the fact that we have more staff or more stuff available potentially um
00:48:13 um prior to the watch change to to the new shift pattern so now i don't think there'll be an impact there after the new shift pattern came in in april 2011 was it was it possible to continue to take
00:48:24 take and train the staff off watch well the idea the idea with the new shift pattern was the four hour the four hour crossover which gave us four hours of the most staff there so 20 staff so
00:48:36 of the most staff there so 20 staff so yes you could you could take staff off to do that and what i'm trying to get to the bottom of this is is how such a good turnout for 2011 was is explicable at least by reference to
00:48:48 is explicable at least by reference to later years but you've got 94 in 2011 given that you had the shift change one third of the way through that year
00:48:59 through that year are you able to explain why nonetheless you had 94 percent i can't i don't i don't recall don't know can i then ask you some questions about the role play in 2011
00:49:10 the role play in 2011 if we go to page 26 of your first statement at paragraph 75 the very next paragraph
00:49:18 paragraph you uh say in 2011 94 of all available staff access to powerpoint presentation and the training team validated this training with a role play exercise and then you you exhibit a
00:49:31 play exercise and then you you exhibit a number of documents as explained above this was not the active role play that was envisaged by the board in indeed and i think you've explained this but is is
00:49:43 this but is is is role play there the call scripts that you we've seen referred to in the email we looked at they could have been utilized that way yes
00:49:54 utilized that way yes uh
00:49:55 uh how is it that the training was validated by role play if that wasn't part of the intended plan for the training program for that year given that it was an intervening cbt or intended cbt
00:50:12 salt for 2011. yes
00:50:22 that's penetrated
00:50:28 okay so as it stays there it's not the active role play it was the obviously walking through the scripts and the riff
00:50:36 right so to be clear in 2011 there wasn't the role play that was envisaged the national guidance um
00:50:47 um but there was a form of interaction namely the call scripts that we've seen referred to in the earlier email yes so this is the confirmation of understanding it right
00:51:00 and that was done alongside the powerpoint yes before powerpoint presentations yes yes and um
00:51:14 if you go back a pay i'm sorry if you gave the second your second statement page 14.
00:51:23 this is uh
00:51:25 uh in answer to a question of page 14 paragraph 73 the question is please explain the assessment process that was intended to be implemented whether it was implemented and if not
00:51:36 whether it was implemented and if not why not this is in relation to uh survival guidance training in paragraph 67 of your first statement and you say this in paragraph 73 from 2012 the training team changed the
00:51:48 from 2012 the training team changed the role play element of the assessment process to a more passive exercise requiring staff to listen to fsg calls and discuss the positive and negative aspects of each call som turner approved
00:52:00 aspects of each call som turner approved the change to the assessment process now uh are you able to to help us was the role play exercise changed to a more passive exercise in 2011
00:52:13 to a more passive exercise in 2011 or 2012
00:52:15 or 2012 well 2012 would have been the full day so that was when the active role play should have taken place so it's clear from from my understanding that in 2012 they didn't do
00:52:26 they didn't do um active role play but turned it into passive role plays so thus far have i got this right in 2010 you had
00:52:36 you had your one full days training active role play yes
00:52:41 play yes 2011 was supposed to be cbt but was it wasn't it was the four peasant type four powerpoint presentations but with call scripts yes and that's the off year if you like and
00:52:53 and that's the off year if you like and 2012 was the on year full training but in that year that role play element was uh made more passive yes thank you
00:53:02 thank you now i i want to see if i can identify with greater precision the time of the change but before i do that
00:53:11 you you say som turner approved the change to the assessment process why did the approval for that change not lie with you given that you had overall responsibility for the delivery i was
00:53:23 responsibility for the delivery i was not aware until until
00:53:26 until i was asked for an update that actually they turned they changed they changed the passive role play so i i um
00:53:36 so i i um i was asked by ac brown i believe to provide an update i may have been tom davis from um
00:53:45 um legal to provide an update
00:53:49 when was that um i don't recall the exact time or date was that um
00:53:59 um after 2012 i believe it was just after 2012 yet so just after 2012 yeah so i would have moved into merton by then well you moved into martin in the spring
00:54:10 well you moved into martin in the spring of 2011 i think you told us no february 2012 february 2012 sorry you're quite right uh i i see that and you think that it was around about that time i believe so now uh can we then look at uh nfb
00:54:23 so now uh can we then look at uh nfb double zero triple 1 432 please
00:54:37 can we go to page two in this email run
00:54:43 this is an email from chris sharp to you on the 16th of may 2011 copy to lindsay turner and nicola o'shea subject fire survival refresher courses scott as per our conversation late last
00:54:55 scott as per our conversation late last week here is an outline of the proposed refresher training for far survival calls the original intention was to provide computer-based training in order that operators could use the package themselves rather than being reliant on
00:55:06 themselves rather than being reliant on a formal session however access to the facilities to provide us assistance and support to construct the packages is not available due to other commitments in the cbt department so we've amended our approach to this training
00:55:19 approach to this training and then there are two bullet points i'll just read them to you um a powerpoint package or word document based on a q a session this will include links to the riff in particular places to get operators more familiar with the
00:55:31 to get operators more familiar with the riff and how to quickly locate the information they need in a real fs situation
00:55:37 situation a video consisting of two scenarios possibly three enacted by volunteers to play the role of a controller room operator taking an fs call or fs calls version one an ideal or
00:55:49 or fs calls version one an ideal or closest to fs call version two an fs call that is successful but not as effective
00:55:55 effective as it could be the idea would be that operators would observe the ideal film and comment on it then view the less than perfect tape for more comments the reason we run the best call first is to set standards and use this as
00:56:06 set standards and use this as reinforcement of the q a session we anticipate that this two-part training will be ready for operating use by the end of june subject to no technical issues as we are limited in accommodation room s2 would be available
00:56:17 accommodation room s2 would be available but work needs to be done to tidy it up and make it a more suitable work area now just looking at that it's right to think that the proposal here put forward by
00:56:26 by um
00:56:27 um chris sharp did not uh include a role play exercise but simply listening to or watching a video yeah but this is the this is the cbt
00:56:37 cbt um so this is the intervening year so the intention never was to run a full active role play at this stage it was really to to
00:56:48 really to to read scripts and go through so what she's proposing is
00:56:52 is um
00:56:53 um is a little bit more than that so i don't see it as particularly wrong what she's proposing no it's the background for what what you then yes say by way of response if we go to page one we can see that you respond
00:57:04 to page one we can see that you respond to her
00:57:05 to her for the foot of page one uh on the next day 17th of may 2011 at 8 26
00:57:14 i'm sorry at 5 30 in the morning it looks like yes and copy to lindsay turner and joanne stebards and if you go to page
00:57:25 joanne stebards and if you go to page two
00:57:26 two you can see the text of the message many thanks for the update we haven't really got any scope to delay the training we need to be proactive to ensure that the refresher training takes place as stated do we intend to provide any assessment
00:57:37 do we intend to provide any assessment confirm understanding a role play call for example if not please consider sorry because i i can't see all of that uh screen
00:57:46 screen really oh right can you not it's on our public screen if you haven't got it on your screen what if you go to the top of your screen i've got the the bottom of my email about my email and then the chris sharp
00:57:58 about my email and then the chris sharp to me is that what you're saying many thank you i'm sorry yes my mistake you know i was looking at the bottom still by apologies not at all it was probably going to be too quickly let's take it more slowly um
00:58:09 too quickly let's take it more slowly um this is your email and what i wanted to focus on was that perhaps the second paragraph where you asked the question do we intend to provide any assessment to confirm understanding a role play call
00:58:20 confirm understanding a role play call for example if not please consider why did you want a role-play call to be used as part of an assessment there given as you say say rightly this was an
00:58:32 given as you say say rightly this was an off-year this was 2011. but because she's she's proposed going through a process of making videos and that and and
00:58:40 and and and
00:58:42 and and um
00:58:43 um not an easier that's the wrong term but a simpler more effective way in my view would be to do a role play for example rather than rather than try and create videos
00:58:53 videos so it was just a just a an alternative let's see i i wasn't i wasn't you know i thought our idea was was was
00:59:05 you know i thought our idea was was was you know i could merit but because of the time constraints were wrong because we were moving um i thought a role play a role play would be a better um
00:59:15 um and easier to implement process and then if we look at lfb3058087
00:59:27 we see if you go to page two
00:59:33 bottom email in the chain an email 27th of may 2011 from chris sharp to you and to lindsay turner copy to joe smith
00:59:45 smith and over on the top of page three she says currently the procedure for far survival is in a state of change with the anticipated addition of a new
00:59:56 with the anticipated addition of a new itc fsg for command unit and station manager and then in the next paragraph she says
01:00:01 she says as you know we intend to produce a video package of mock fire survival guides first survival calls for control staff to comment on as part of the far survival refresher training nikki has done a lot of work working on the script
01:00:14 done a lot of work working on the script and assessment sheets for the video the intention is to pull resources together to film the role play as soon after 16th as possible asking permission to organize a filming day and to include natalie bagnall and
01:00:27 day and to include natalie bagnall and emilia reynolds to help as they were both involved in the last film session now
01:00:34 now uh you respond to that the same day if you look at the next email up and you say this if you go back to page two foot of the page you say
01:00:46 foot of the page you say i disagree we've already adopted this procedure
01:00:50 procedure and there's something about high-rise and then i do not want our refresher training delayed by for any reason and would want it to follow the proposed training recommended in fsc 1093 including our own additions we've made
01:01:02 including our own additions we've made assurances to the national board that this is our proposed action and it is supported by them any issues back to the senior managers soonest
01:01:13 would you have expected uh
01:01:16 uh chris sharp to discuss with you any major changes to the training packages no i didn't i was i think she would discuss it with lindsay who would then discuss it with me when you say you
01:01:27 discuss it with me when you say you would want it to follow the proposed training recommended in fsc 1093 was that the role play exercise yes yes in the in the 1993 circular yes yes yes
01:01:42 and then we can see lindsey turner responds to your email again on the same day 27th of may in the next email up this time copying only joe smith if we scroll up page two please
01:01:59 and if you look at the second paragraph she says
01:02:07 uh
01:02:12 whilst the video idea is a good one i'm not sure it will demonstrate
01:02:19 thank you whilst the video idea is a good one i'm not sure it will demonstrate good practice amongst our staff it will not test staff if they are answering questions about how good or bad a call was in a group
01:02:30 bad a call was in a group not only that but we are already into june and we still do not have a package available to deliver our annual refresher training
01:02:39 and then she goes on uh half day would suffice
01:02:45 i think i think this is this is me isn't it to lindsay yes i think what's happened here is that um we've jumped an email i need to show you yours to her and there was some leaping about which i think has put me
01:02:57 leaping about which i think has put me into the into the next document can we scroll down please to the bottom of page one
01:03:02 one hi scott and joanne
01:03:06 you see that yes i do uh ideally we would have got together to talk this through face to face but because we are all off at different times over the next week
01:03:14 week and then it trails away and if we go to the top of page two this is how i see this and then you can let me know if i'm way off
01:03:21 way off my understanding is that we will be providing refresher training for staff on fsg
01:03:27 on fsg and that this is ideally we and that this ideally would have been cbt but because they cannot provide this at this time our trainers are putting together a ppt
01:03:38 together a ppt and fs are working on a ppt as well attached is r1 which is not complete yet my understanding is that we are doing our training to 1093 but this is also enhanced by the changes we've made with
01:03:49 enhanced by the changes we've made with a new riff which is more in depth is this right if we don't do it this way we will not be refreshing to the same level as we did in their initial training and update training when the rift changed at this time we are still waiting for the
01:04:00 this time we are still waiting for the fs ppt
01:04:03 fs ppt the video clips that chris is suggesting are to replace role play which wasn't in the initial requirement for refresher but is added because it was deemed useful in the previous training if we had used cbt there would not have been
01:04:15 had used cbt there would not have been role play but thought we were keen to keep this in question mark also if we had used cbt they would not necessarily have been anyone evaluating them
01:04:23 them but i suggest that this is done by their aom stroke om in a similar way to call coach
01:04:30 coach if all the and then the last paragraph if all the above is completely wrong then we need to let chris know asap so she can make changes to the way refresher training is going to be done scott if we're going to do if we are going
01:04:41 going with doing the film clips are you happy for emilia strike natalie to help with this
01:04:47 this now um
01:04:49 now um it's quite a chunk of text dad first of all lindsay turner that's som turner it is indeed is the long and the short of all of this um that the cbt couldn't be delivered
01:05:00 um that the cbt couldn't be delivered but that would never have included role play anyway and now what is envisaged is a powerpoint which did include an element of role play yes yes
01:05:10 yes yes and would it be fair to say that som turner was in support of changing the role play exercise for the videos suggested by chris sharp she was supporting the videos yes and
01:05:21 she was supporting the videos yes and she was asking you for your approval yes now thank you that's helped cut through that now you then respond to som turner at the top of this email
01:05:32 to som turner at the top of this email chain
01:05:33 chain in the email that i started showing you in error
01:05:37 in error and you rightly pointed out was yours lindsay having considered yours and ost's concerns over the proposed training package i suggest we get back to basics whilst the video idea is a good one i'm not sure it will
01:05:48 good one i'm not sure it will demonstrate good practice amongst our staff we will not test staff if they are answering questions about how good or bad a call was in a group not only that but we're already into june and still don't have a package available to
01:05:59 don't have a package available to deliver our annual refresher training in reality the initial training package delivered last year was based on the training proposed in 1093 with enhancements i'm keen this is important i'm keen to continue with role play for
01:06:11 i'm keen to continue with role play for staff to confirm understanding as stated in 1093
01:06:14 in 1093 i suggest we provide a reduced package for the refresher course followed by a role play session a half day would suffice including all relevant previous teaching as well as the changes that
01:06:25 teaching as well as the changes that have been introduced over the past 12 months including policy 155 just pausing there uh policy one five five was that draft one five five yes that was for this become 790 it became 790 the following
01:06:37 become 790 it became 790 the following year and you go on it will simplify the taking for ost as the training document tasking sorry for ost is the training documentation is already there they
01:06:48 documentation is already there they would only require sorting out some fsg type calls and could use short shift staff
01:06:53 staff to assist with this or those being taught could act as callers i suggest at least one ost member support the training to ensure consistency in training and role play even with cbt i would still like a form
01:07:05 even with cbt i would still like a form of confirmation of understanding this will be considered in any coroner's hearings when delivering our post-action training it's not enough that we communicate one way with our staff and expect them to take it all on board i
01:07:16 expect them to take it all on board i suggest that we and ost need to know that the staff understands i appreciate all the work that's been done to introduce this refresher training and the different methods in which it can be delivered but it needs
01:07:27 which it can be delivered but it needs to reflect national policy and it needs to be delivered now and you go on we can consider our options over the next nine months whilst we're preparing for the full days training this time next year and
01:07:40 training this time next year and hopefully we will have a package prepared for every year views please as soon as possible so that we can agree the way forward question mark
01:07:48 mark now
01:07:49 now again there's a lengthy chunk of text but to summarize am i right that you were telling som turner that the role play exercise should stay as an active role play exercise not a video because a
01:08:00 role play exercise not a video because a video would not demonstrate or necessarily demonstrate good practice correct yes and you wanted to ensure that staff understood how to take an fsg call yes yes uh what happened as a
01:08:11 call yes yes uh what happened as a result of your sending that email
01:08:19 we didn't do the videos we used the existing training packages that we used because we didn't have cbt but i still i believe that we use the
01:08:31 but i still i believe that we use the scripts and it wasn't done as active role play but as i said i think it was done um talking through the riff as opposed to doing active role play
01:08:44 i believe from that time and
01:08:49 and did you receive any comments back from som turner i i don't i don't recall i expect i i would have done um the views please were to to look to all those uh cc'd in so
01:09:00 those uh cc'd in so we obviously had a further discussion but i'm not sure i'm not sure what the feedback was right so in a nutshell did this
01:09:08 this uh proposal simply run into the sand and you continued with the call scripts as
01:09:15 as the interactive element yeah because i think it was the time obviously you know i'm highlighting that the fact we haven't got a package together yet we were expecting the cbt package to be in place
01:09:25 place um and we were working to try and get that done it was clear that wasn't going to happen
01:09:30 to happen so you know we had a time frame but we had no package so we had to act quickly to to to put a package together which would satisfy the requirements um i believe at this stage
01:09:43 requirements um i believe at this stage we used as i said the scripts that were created and we used a riff and not active role play um but then obviously i wanted role play active role play from then on
01:09:55 active role play from then on i see
01:09:58 i see so
01:09:59 so in and for the rest of 2011 so far as refresher training was concerned the role play element remained the call script
01:10:08 script and the use of the riff in the way we've already discussed i believe so that's my understanding at that time
01:10:14 that time mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is thank you very much i think it's time we had a short break mr hayward we'll stop now uh we'll resume it half past three thank you sir
01:10:24 you sir uh no talking to anyone
01:10:27 thank you very much
01:10:34 thank you not frustrated please
01:26:44 would you ask mr haywood to come back in please thank you
01:26:57 all right it's david i'm indeed thank you sir thank you very much yes yes mr chairman um 2012 training in 2012 can we start with um a further change to
01:27:09 can we start with um a further change to role play and the duration question um it i think it's right isn't it that in 2012 the training that should have been given was a full day of refresher training with fire safety input and role
01:27:21 training with fire safety input and role play exercise that's correct yes can we go to your first statement please page 26 paragraph 76
01:27:38 and you say there in 2012 to 13 trainers and a fire safety officer provided fsg training during the four hour training slot with a short shift to 89
01:27:49 89 81 of all available staff this was not the duration intended by the board now you don't mention there the role play training in that paragraph was their role play training actually
01:28:01 their role play training actually carried out in 2012 yes but it was passive role play if i remember rightly and that's the passive role play that we saw referred to by joe smith in her statement yes uh
01:28:14 statement yes uh did you check at the time to see that role play was being carried out as part of that on-year training uh
01:28:23 uh no i've become aware of it when i was asked to provide up an update to the board
01:28:29 board when was that again was that around the 2012 mark 2012 2013 mark yeah right and what did you do when you discovered that role play
01:28:40 when you discovered that role play was not being carried out or rather was being carried out in a passive way i directed the um senior operations major to
01:28:48 to instigate active role play in accordance with the
01:28:53 with the um
01:28:54 um the as discussed at the board can we look at your first statement of paragraph 69 please on page 24 two pages earlier
01:29:06 uh you say that during the full days fsg training
01:29:09 training it was intended that staff members should undertake role play exercises i believe that active role play i.e role play in which staff members took part was used in 2010 however during the course of the latin
01:29:20 however during the course of the latin house firing quests when the lfb was providing information to the coroner i was asked to clarify a number of aspects of the fsg training including its duration and composition having confirmed the having confirmed the position with
01:29:32 the having confirmed the position with the members of my team who were responsible for the training it transpired that the active role player element of the training had been stopped instead following feedback from staff it appears that it was decided that the
01:29:43 appears that it was decided that the trainers would instead record mock fsg calls displaying good and bad i should say bad yes it should say practice which were played to staff for them to discuss i believe that this
01:29:54 them to discuss i believe that this decision must have been taken by vic bagnell who was then the senior operations manager leading the ost i questioned this decision in an email to vic bagel on 7th of february 2013.
01:30:05 vic bagel on 7th of february 2013. now then just to confirm this are you saying here that it was only on or around the 6th 7th of february 2013 during the latter house inquest hearings
01:30:16 during the latter house inquest hearings themselves that you first discovered that the role-play exercise that was meant to have been delivered as part of the refresher fsg training in 2012 had been changed to a passive role-play
01:30:27 been changed to a passive role-play exercise correct can you explain why you didn't know that before then because i wasn't informed that there was a change
01:30:36 a change and the training role play was in the training it just wasn't the trend that was envisaged so my
01:30:43 my my understanding was it was active role play in accordance with the direction that we gave in actual fact that that was changed to passive role play but i wasn't made aware of that right i i think you would accept that you
01:30:55 i i think you would accept that you ought to have been made aware of that yes
01:30:58 yes and who at the time was responsible for making you aware of that who did not that had been sombagnal now let's be clear
01:31:09 now let's be clear joe smith
01:31:10 joe smith left
01:31:12 left for the cfoa by on secondment in september 2012. yes september 2012 uh and
01:31:20 uh and uh at that stage september 2012 had or by then who was in charge of of training and ensuring in particular that role play was carried out i i
01:31:31 out i i i'm not quite sure the exact timings but some turner was still with us but at some stage during that year she was um seconded out of control and moved into
01:31:42 seconded out of control and moved into projects because of a a life-changing illness
01:31:46 illness right
01:31:50 who sorry
01:31:53 sorry um
01:31:54 um who
01:31:55 who before september 2012 when joe smith uh left uh well when sorry i should ask you first when in 2012 did som turner uh
01:32:07 when in 2012 did som turner uh leave
01:32:08 leave uh on second i i'm not i'm not quite sure i mean it was a it was a move from from control to headquarters i'm not exactly sure of the at the exact time right
01:32:19 right is it right that when joe smith was seconded to the cfoa in september 2012 uh
01:32:27 2012 uh um
01:32:29 um om bagnall was became som acting som yes
01:32:35 yes he essentially took her her role but not her command post if you like
01:32:40 like her rank he took her rank yes you took her rank yes um who was responsible during 2012 at any time for bringing to your attention the fact
01:32:52 your attention the fact that the role play intended as part of the um the full day's training uh had been downgraded to passive so i've been to the some training so either
01:33:03 i've been to the some training so either lindsay turner or nick bagnol and what about uh joe smith which she wasn't in she wasn't responsible for train at that point right
01:33:15 [Music] now you say that the decision must have been taken by vic bagnall but i think you also accept that this is a decision that was for you to make
01:33:28 a decision that was for you to make with the person ultimately responsible yes training so so what i'm saying there is the fact that obviously ost asked that person that person agreed
01:33:39 ost asked that person that person agreed but it didn't come to me at that stage did an alarm bell ring with you that your perhaps your methods of supervision and monitoring the soms responsible for
01:33:50 and monitoring the soms responsible for training had not been quite as hands-on and is as effective as it should have been
01:33:55 been um i didn't i didn't think that at the time i you know i i put trust in my senior operations managers because i'm not i can't do i can't do it all and
01:34:07 i'm not i can't do i can't do it all and what was going on at that time um i needed to rely on my senior operations majors to follow through um
01:34:16 um what they were tasked to do so now i don't feel that i didn't i didn't do enough or monitor enough i gave direction to report exceptions if there was any um because i was out and about
01:34:29 was any um because i was out and about all the time so you know i needed to rely on those to do though to carry out those tasks but this was an exception wasn't it the downgrading to passive it wasn't it wasn't exception but it
01:34:40 it wasn't it wasn't exception but it wasn't reported to me exactly and therefore because it wasn't reported as an exception that was a failure in the reporting system yes and did you investigate with vic bangla the why it was that yes i did failure
01:34:51 the why it was that yes i did failure and what was the upshot well he responded with an email first of all
01:34:58 all um
01:35:00 um talking about the staff and their their the fact they didn't they didn't see that active role play um worked
01:35:11 that active role play um worked i spoke to him to face-to-face reference it as well um i i was a i was a i thought active role play was a good method of of training i've used it in a
01:35:22 method of of training i've used it in a previous role and i thought it worked very well
01:35:25 very well and i instructed him to ensure that it was done in the future
01:35:30 and was it really a case of the control room staff saying we don't like it can we stop doing it yeah i i think i think they they were they got embarrassed by it because
01:35:41 they got embarrassed by it because obviously it highly it can highlight their
01:35:45 their um
01:35:46 um their shortfalls maybe or you know um but but that that's the environment to do it in my view you know it can it can you know turn out you know that you've made a mistake but
01:35:57 you know that you've made a mistake but that's where to make a mistake and active role play isn't effective in my opinion an effective way of of confirmation of understanding thank you
01:36:08 looking down the same page to page paragraph 70 please if we can scroll down to that you say there in addition whilst the board intended
01:36:19 in addition whilst the board intended that control officers would receive a full day's package of fsg training it became apparent to me when i was querying the nature of the fsg training in february 2013 that in 2012 when full
01:36:30 in february 2013 that in 2012 when full training was due to take place this training was actually delivered in about four hours this would have taken place during the four hour short shift that the training that was delivered in 2010 was a full day
01:36:41 was a full day now are you saying here that you were unaware that the full day's training had been reduced to four hours or crammed in perhaps to four hours in 2012. yeah well i mean my under my understanding is
01:36:53 i mean my under my understanding is having having considered having considered this is the fact that because we introduced a new shift pattern and the four-hour training slot was allocated for training uh training used that opportunity to be
01:37:06 uh training used that opportunity to be able to deliver that training and and whilst it was we we said that it was a four days training because there was less staff on the course then no no real element was lost
01:37:19 then no no real element was lost although in reality we said we'd give a full day and we didn't give that full day as was as was agreed so again i went back and and i can understand why
01:37:30 i went back and and i can understand why they did what they did because as part of that that shift pattern we allocated that that to training now you say it became apparent to you when you were querying the nature of the fsg training in 2013 yes was that about
01:37:42 fsg training in 2013 yes was that about the same time that you discovered the role play problem yes it was all it was all you know an update to to the board and again you were unaware of that before then i i was yeah and again was
01:37:53 before then i i was yeah and again was that because vick van gaal did not what were you of it well i i think i think
01:37:58 think he didn't inform me of it but equally as i've already stated i think that that because with the new this and the new shift pattern was new and we'd allocated this four hours i think they they
01:38:09 this four hours i think they they naturally just to set it into that four hour period it was achieved in that four hour period although that wasn't what we what we told the board and we needed to go back to the day can
01:38:20 and we needed to go back to the day can we go to page 18 of this statement please and look at paragraph 53
01:38:30 it's at the foot of your screen you say this as was intended and i just focus on those words as was intended when the new shift system was implemented in 2011 trainer-led training took place within
01:38:42 trainer-led training took place within the short shift in the period between april 2011 and april 2014 there was a four hour overlap between the two shifts the effect of this was that i could release staff from training
01:38:53 that i could release staff from training whilst maintaining service delivery although this did depend on sickness and other leave now you say as was intended when the new shift system was implemented in 2011
01:39:04 shift system was implemented in 2011 when was the decision made to change the training sessions to a four-hour training slot
01:39:11 around that time that i i was made aware of it so you made aware you mean just general the the general four hour training slot well
01:39:20 well when was the decision made to to change the training sessions to the tour for our training slot it was part of the um it was a part of the
01:39:31 part of the um it was a part of the proposals with fire control um and this was one of the shift patterns that was proposed by all frses and and dtlg as part of that
01:39:42 all frses and and dtlg as part of that program and although the program was was as i said cancelled um
01:39:48 um lfb still wanted to pursue um changes within within brigade and one of those was the shift pattern and what this is this is the shift pattern that was proposed to the unions which they accepted all right as
01:40:00 unions which they accepted all right as part of that was a a four-hour this fire overlap to add to allow for training that was my next question when that four-hour overlap was in instituted
01:40:11 four-hour overlap was in instituted was it specifically intended that it would be used for training yes it was next question when that was decided who was it who decided that that four hour overlap would be used
01:40:23 overlap would be used for the fs3 the fsg refresher training which would otherwise ordinarily take a day that's right so it would have been sombagnal right and that's not something
01:40:34 sombagnal right and that's not something he told you about until you he revealed it to you in february 23rd correct during the latter housing quest yes yes now
01:40:44 now do you know how he intended that the staff were going to receive what was meant to be a full day's training during four hours yeah so so
01:40:55 yeah so so as i as i said earlier the um the full day package you know if you if i know we've talked about it's five hours or where but in reality
01:41:06 reality you know the training normally started around nine o'clock that there'd be a break you know and lunch but they they did it in the four-hour slot straight through with one break so that the same the same
01:41:20 so that the same the same training was delivered uh it was just it was just the fact that it didn't last the full day and there was obviously less staff that they needed to um train as well which gave them some time
01:41:32 train as well which gave them some time back rather than more than one more than uh 10 or 12 people it had just been three or four if it wasn't interactive uh or the interaction was only passive
01:41:43 uh or the interaction was only passive because the role play was passive how would the reduction in the numbers of staff to be trained enabled you to reduce the time
01:41:54 because the because obviously if you're doing active active role play which is what was envisaged then obviously there'll be two people doing it
01:42:03 it and then you swap over with the passive role play it would be playing the calls and then interaction between that small group and the trainer about good and bad calls
01:42:13 calls so
01:42:14 so that the time the time is is reduced because you're not doing the active part of it i see um
01:42:20 um so in a nutshell is it that you took a full day with frills as it were i took out the frills and managed to compress the full day into a four-hour slot well
01:42:33 the full day into a four-hour slot well i'm not i'm not sure thrills used to create you know i think the use of expression but the comfort breaks and lunch and things like that yes
01:42:40 yes yes
01:42:42 yes and uh did you ask him or did you investigate whether there was any compromise to the integrity of the full day training i did you did yes i did and and not like the feedback i got was
01:42:53 and not like the feedback i got was there there was no there was no compromise
01:42:58 and you trusted that did you i did trust that yeah can we go to nfb triple zero five eight zero eight
01:43:08 seven this is an email we looked at earlier which was your back to basics email yep
01:43:15 email yep uh the one we looked at twice uh and i've read it all to you um so i won't read it again but um you'll recall um
01:43:22 um at the very top of the email you refer to ost's concerns over the proposed training package what were those concerns
01:43:32 i don't i don't recall i think i
01:43:40 and and although this is in the context of uh
01:43:45 of uh powerpoint training in an off year to call it that uh you suggested a half days training package for the refresher course and you said that that would suffice um
01:43:56 um why did you think it would suffice for the for the um the because the cbt package would only be um a couple of hours
01:44:07 be um a couple of hours so a half day a half day i mean i was just i wasn't making any hard and fast decisions i was just making suggestions about how we could do it it may have taken a bit longer or i would suggest
01:44:19 taken a bit longer or i would suggest probably a little bit shorter so it was just ideas out there to to help jump start some some fresher ideas that were that were that were first proposed rather than go through a process of
01:44:31 rather than go through a process of making videos and the like right in the third paragraph there you say you're keen to continue with role play and in the third line you suggest we will provide a reduced package for the
01:44:42 will provide a reduced package for the refresher course followed by a role play session was that suggestion aimed at the um the putative cbt or powerpoint year 2011 only or
01:44:53 2011 only or was it aimed at the following year as well the full package uh this bit was talking about the the interim so the cbt or in the absence of
01:45:04 interim so the cbt or in the absence of the cbt package but but active role play should have been delivered for the full days anyway yes but really what i'm trying to get at was whether your suggestion there for a reduction in the refresher course to a
01:45:16 reduction in the refresher course to a half day which you say would suffice was just for 2011. yes this is just because we didn't have the cbt package available so we were not to take from that email this was going to be an enduring suggestion which would also cover the on
01:45:28 suggestion which would also cover the on years 2012 2014 2016. no it was not
01:45:34 uh can we then look at
01:45:43 the emails that transpired in february 2013
01:45:47 2013 from which you gain your recollection uh before i take you to that can i show you paragraph 71 of your first statement by way of a run-up page 24 you say
01:46:08 at the very foot of page 24 in the emails i exchanged on 6th and 7th sorry 71. in the emails i exchanged on 6th and 7th february 2013 with members
01:46:19 6th and 7th february 2013 with members of the ost chris sharp and vic bagnol set out an explanation as to why the duration of the training had been changed in summary chris sharp now deceased confirmed that a full day's
01:46:30 deceased confirmed that a full day's training took part i think it's a mistake took place i should say in 2010 but that to facilitate this staff would attach from duty this meant that they did not form part of the minimum contingent required to operate
01:46:41 minimum contingent required to operate the control room chris sharp indicated that there was a management decision that ref refresher training should take place during the short shift to prevent staff from being detached from duty i do not know who
01:46:52 detached from duty i do not know who took that decision but it may have been vic bagnall do you know when that decision was made i do not was it made after the decision that we've just looked at in may 2011 presumably it was i presume so yes
01:47:05 presumably it was i presume so yes and and again why did you not have oversight of who took that decision because i wasn't informed so why were you not included in a management decision about the length of training particularly where it affected what was agreed at the lack of housing
01:47:17 what was agreed at the lack of housing no i i don't disagree but i wasn't informed right and now let's look at the emails we started lfb double zero one double two eight four zero
01:47:31 and let's take this slowly um if if we look first at page three at the very foot of that page we can see an email from you
01:47:43 we can see an email from you to chris sharp nicola o'shea copy to vic bagnall of the 6th of february 2013 of 1456 and the subject is
01:47:54 and the subject is fw forward control report importance high sensitivity confidential and you say further traffic and that's in blue
01:48:07 this is the bottom email in the string so we're jumping in in a sense in the middle of the conversation but am i right that you were passing on questions which had been posed by thomas
01:48:19 questions which had been posed by thomas davis from lfb legal services i could show you the the precursor email to that if you like in which case do you if that's if that's if precursor emails are saying that then yes well let's put
01:48:30 are saying that then yes well let's put this beyond beyond any doubt can we leave this on the screen if we may please and have up lfb triple zero six zero eight seven two
01:48:44 uh this isn't is on the right-hand side uh and we need to look at uh page three of that email run please
01:48:54 please on the right hand side page three this is tom davis's email to you on the 6th of february
01:49:05 with some questions and he says thanks for everything yesterday a couple of issues have been raised which we'll need answers to in case the coroner wants to question any of
01:49:16 the coroner wants to question any of these points and there are two questions there set out
01:49:20 out whether the supervisor training if needed should be rolled out to all staff and then the second question we need some clarity about what refresher training takes place is it every other year all day with role play
01:49:32 every other year all day with role play and fire safety officers and the other year computer based on watch i'm afraid we still aren't clear about the situation we've told the coroner in the report
01:49:42 report and just to pause there that was the um the lfb's control report of november 2012 that we've been looking at we've told the coroner in the report that it is full day training if it isn't
01:49:54 that it is full day training if it isn't we need to have a detailed answer why we've modified this position and precisely what the position retraining is now
01:50:02 is now we think training is one of the areas that the coroner and the other parties are going to focus on so the more information we have the stronger our stance will be happy to chat but i can also get written
01:50:14 happy to chat but i can also get written answers so that i can provide to our counsel as well
01:50:19 now if you look at the response
01:50:26 uh if if you go to the left hand side we can go back to that email and
01:50:37 if you
01:50:41 if we can go back to that email uh and then scroll down [Music]
01:50:46 [Music] please
01:50:49 to the next page
01:50:57 in answer to the
01:51:06 question uh about the clarity about what refresher training takes place that's in the middle of the page and you can see that the answer in red
01:51:17 and you can see that the answer in red which comes from nicola o'shea nikki o'shea a management decision was made that trainers and an fs officer would provide training every other year
01:51:28 as with this year in between staff will access the information we've made available which we then validate with role play next year staff will access the knowledge center and complete the cbt packages
01:51:41 and complete the cbt packages um just to confirm the first fsg training in 2010 was a full day's training 2011 staff access powerpoint presentations and we validated with role play 2012 trainers and an fs officer
01:51:52 play 2012 trainers and an fs officer provided half a day's training 2013 staff will complete the online cbt packages
01:51:57 packages and then if you look a little bit lower down
01:52:01 there's a further red comment it was a management decision that refresher training did not need to be a full day's training and could take place from 1400 hours to 1800 hours this was to utilize the afternoon short shift and to prevent
01:52:14 the afternoon short shift and to prevent star from being dd is that that means detached detail from watch and then you query that in blue do you see
01:52:25 see yes you say yes but why yes but why did we refine the training to enable us to deliver the day's training in four hours are the staff getting the same training they received when we use the full day is it more
01:52:37 when we use the full day is it more intense for example can you be a little more specific please i'm just pausing there uh presumably you didn't know any of that which is why you were asking these questions correct
01:52:48 questions correct and the response you get in in red is this when we started the training in 2010 the training itself took seven hours including a lunch break
01:52:59 hours including a lunch break it was agreed that a full day was required and staff would dd from watch to allow this to happen we were not able to dd people for the current training therefore were directed by management to use the slot between 1400 and hundred
01:53:11 use the slot between 1400 and hundred hours to complete it there is not enough stuff on duty from eight hundred from oh eight hundred hours to fourteen hundred hours to allow training to take place before fourteen hundred hours the training that we've just conducted has
01:53:22 training that we've just conducted has not changed from the initial training in 2010 i.e the content of the presentations the difference in the training we've just completed this time included a brief discussion on difficult calls compared with the 1 hour 30 minutes
01:53:33 compared with the 1 hour 30 minutes covered in the original training also instead of staff completing individual role play we recorded mock calls and staff listened and assessed the content of each call now before you got that response were
01:53:45 now before you got that response were you aware that there was an issue with not enough staff being on duty to allow training to take place for the full day obviously at this time we did have an issue with with staff in numbers but
01:53:58 issue with with staff in numbers but you know
01:53:58 you know if we would have detached staff to complete the day's training so nobody had come to you to tell you that there was a problem with not enough staff being on duty so that you could have the full day's training well no
01:54:10 have the full day's training well no they didn't come to me because i was aware that we had we had staffing issues the fact is that i would have released staff to carry out that training right
01:54:21 had anybody asked you for more stuff or more time or more resources to ensure that even though there was no damage to the integrity of the full day's training as it was a design nonetheless a full day
01:54:33 it was a design nonetheless a full day could be devoted to it uh i was asked for more staff but you know i can't we just can't magic staff up as you know i'm
01:54:42 i'm you know i i people we always ask for more staff but there was no staff available
01:54:48 available now
01:54:49 now if you go
01:54:51 if you go to
01:54:51 to uh
01:54:53 uh your
01:54:54 your reply
01:54:57 reply uh you'll find a reply at lfb triple zero three nine nine three five
01:55:06 and you
01:55:09 you can see there the bottom of page one is an email from you to vic
01:55:16 to vic dagnall on the 7th of february 2013. i say replied it is a reply but it's a a response rather to to vic bangla rather than a reply to nikki o'shea
01:55:28 nikki o'shea and you say uh i can't say that on my on mine at the moment no because if you go to page two
01:55:36 you've got the text yes morning vic can you let me know who managerially changed the role play element of the fsg this is a fundamental part of the training to confirm
01:55:47 part of the training to confirm understanding and was highlighted in the training audit and directed by the original fsg training listening to mock calls as stated by nikki is not what we expected i would like i would like role
01:55:58 expected i would like i would like role play to be introduced into our training as a matter of course and not skipped over because the staff are uncomfortable with it
01:56:05 with it now what did you understand had happened at that stage to the active role play from the original training
01:56:14 when i say the original training i mean the onya original training well they just they they didn't deliver it they used the passive the passive role play so they they'd reverted back
01:56:25 role play so they they'd reverted back to
01:56:26 to listening to calls as opposed to using the active the active role play which is what which is what we envisioned what will be done that's i'm sorry maybe my question was was garbled but
01:56:38 was garbled but that the point that you were told of all this on the 6th of february 7th of february
01:56:43 february at that point what had you understood had happened to the active role play from the original training where there was proper role play
01:56:55 um i'm not sure i understand your question sorry so so well at the point you received your the email from the day before we're asking questions yes at that moment what what did you what what did you think
01:57:06 what did you think was happening with role play in the on years
01:57:10 years they were doing active role play right so you didn't know that they'd been downgraded to passive no right now um
01:57:18 now um you can see the response if you go to page one that comes back from vic bagnall
01:57:26 he says there hi scott i will research and come back to you and shortly after that you send him an email morning vic do you
01:57:37 you send him an email morning vic do you see that i do i've just had my ass kicked about the length of the full fsg training
01:57:43 training in the report we say it's a full day and yet we have just carried out the training in four hours with no role play dave was very unhappy and made it very clear to me it makes us look unprofessional in court
01:57:55 unprofessional in court i appreciate you've just picked this up but we need tighter control of the trainers and not let them freelance as they have appeared to have done on this occasion
01:58:04 and to be clear your reference to dave i assume was to uh ac brown it was and was it he who had applied his foot forcefully to your posterior it was yeah and is it right that there were two
01:58:15 and is it right that there were two problems here one was the absence of any role play unbeknown to you or the downgrading of role play unbelied to you apparently and the other was the reduction of the fsg full day refresher training to four hours also unknown to
01:58:28 training to four hours also unknown to you that's correct did you discuss both of those with ac brown i did what did he say to you getting back to the way they were get them back to the way they were did you tell
01:58:38 you tell some daniel that the trainers had freelanced did i tell him that they'd freelance well why did you tell them that tell him that
01:58:47 that um
01:58:49 um because some of the training in the past the trainers did tend to to do their own thing at times and they shouldn't have done they shouldn't have done no does that tell us that there was poor uh and inadequate oversight and
01:59:01 uh and inadequate oversight and supervision well i mean to be to to be fair to to vic he had just taken over that role
01:59:06 that role um so he was sort of picking up um from where lindsey lindsey left off i see
01:59:14 i see and did he ever come to you presumably he didn't
01:59:17 he didn't and say
01:59:18 and say there's a lot of freelancing going on i don't think at that point he realized that
01:59:23 that and i think i think we were we were tightening controls from then on we see what he says in his reply to you at lfb
01:59:34 at lfb triple zero five five two two one of page two now it's quite a long message
01:59:40 message but given its importance i should read it to you if you go to the very bottom of page 2 over to page 3 it's your exhibit 30.
01:59:54 uh
01:59:59 you can see what he
02:00:03 what he says i just want to make sure we're looking at the right document um the bottom of page one you look at the bottom of page one this is his email to you seventh of february 2013 at 1406.
02:00:18 to you seventh of february 2013 at 1406. and he it starts at the top of page two hi scott do you see that i do now um the structure of this email is not that straightforward but he says included below is some text
02:00:29 but he says included below is some text from chris explaining how we arrived at the point we are now and then if you look down at the middle of the screen chris chris's text now
02:00:44 and quotes the form the role play element
02:00:47 element in the initial training from my experience did not necessarily achieve what was hoped the feedback we received was that people were more concerned about making fools of themselves rather than actually
02:00:58 of themselves rather than actually benefiting from the exercise we also did role play after the computer-based refresher training in 2011. this was conducted on a one-to-one basis but either me or nicki or supervisors role
02:01:09 either me or nicki or supervisors role play is an inexact way of validating training as you cannot replicate the same conditions and cover the same information each time as it is done by different trainers supervisors
02:01:20 different trainers supervisors i approach lindsay about changing the approach for this last session of training and recorded two mock role play calls by me and nikki for the staff to listen to and access the recordings were not simply examples of a very good call
02:01:32 not simply examples of a very good call versus a bad one there were some differences most notably not checking if the caller could get out and why they couldn't get out on one of them we also discussed the difference between one call when nikki followed the riff when
02:01:43 call when nikki followed the riff when speaking to the caller and the other she did not and simply used our script the operators commented that the flow of the call was better when using the rif emphasizing our message about using it every time we supplied an assessment sheet for them
02:01:54 we supplied an assessment sheet for them to fill out when the calls were played and we went through them afterwards comparing the content we used the riff as a reference point for the validation sheet
02:02:01 sheet each session was taken very seriously in the feedback but feedback was positive the staff expressed the view that they could concentrate on what was actually said and reflect on how they would approach such a call it has agreed that
02:02:12 approach such a call it has agreed that the operator's job ideally in an fsg call is to concentrate on the caller whilst supervisors are ensuring the mobilizing and information flow is done having experienced doing the role play as stated before operators were more
02:02:24 as stated before operators were more worried about the mechanics of mobilizing which in some cases outweighed the benefits when we were running the initial training a lot of discussion took place during the day about the forthcoming role play and how people were worried
02:02:36 role play and how people were worried about it
02:02:37 about it i honestly believe that this had in some cases a detrimental effect on the whole day's training there was one operator who refused to do it and had to do it at a late at a later stage by me with kid gloves it was suggested by management at
02:02:49 gloves it was suggested by management at the time that the more we do the role play the less worried people would be about it but of course we need to have that opportunity to do it during the year
02:02:59 and then um she goes on to say the approach we took this time in my view is role play nikki and me role played and the staff assessed it and were engaged in the process and were able to maintain a
02:03:11 process and were able to maintain a consistent approach throughout training the best form of role play has been demonstrated when we did the fsg exercise in the room it was in context and the whole watch was involved
02:03:22 was involved and then
02:03:23 and then the quotations end and
02:03:27 and s.o.m bagnall as to the end of his email at the very foot of your page i hope this helped scott sorry dave laid into you but perhaps we should have picked this on up on this report point before
02:03:38 this on up on this report point before it was submitted now by the report is som bagnol referring there to the lachenal control report that was submitted to the coroner i'm i'm not sure but it's points that
02:03:49 i'm i'm not sure but it's points that way and now if we scroll up to page one of this email run we can see your response back to some bagel on the 8th of february 2013.
02:04:02 morning thanks vic i agree this should have been picked up before the report was submitted and we all had the opportunity to review the report before it went to the coroner i would have picked it up had i been cited
02:04:13 would have picked it up had i been cited on the change to the training but i wasn't
02:04:15 wasn't exclamation mark regardless we as a managerial team have been caught out hopefully it will not come up in court but if it does it is going to be difficult to mask over the fact that we have said one thing and do another
02:04:29 have said one thing and do another i've had a discussion about role play before and i find the mitigation of worried staff a weak excuse for not carrying out the training as detailed in the government training documentation that we are stating we abide by i've
02:04:41 that we are stating we abide by i've carried out training in both environments role play and passive role play role play has the impact that the passive one don't chris is not a supporter of role play that's very clear but documentation and
02:04:52 that's very clear but documentation and audits state the contrary and until there is a change to those documents i suggest we follow them not only that but vic not only that vic but it wasn't ratified at our meetings and therefore we did not
02:05:03 we did not all have the information available to us perhaps we can discuss the way forward at our next meeting now why did you think worried staff was a weak excuse for not carrying out the
02:05:14 a weak excuse for not carrying out the training in accordance with national guidance
02:05:17 guidance i just think as as chris stated in her uh email that that staff were more concerned about um
02:05:26 um uh being uncomfortable doing doing a role play
02:05:29 role play um
02:05:31 um worries perhaps the wrong word it was the fact that they were they that they were embarrassed by it by doing it and you thought that was a weak excuse for not not not yeah
02:05:42 for not not not yeah yeah yeah i mean we we said that we would do active role play active role played is what we should have done and like i say if if if we were to propose a change to that then
02:05:53 were to propose a change to that then we'll take that to the board and see if it will be accepted but until that time then active role play is the way yes and
02:06:01 and am i right in thinking that we get from your message that you were concerned that the coroner had been misled because the lfb latino control report of november 2012 had said in terms that role play had
02:06:12 had said in terms that role play had been introduced into the training yes i believe that is the case did you do anything to ensure that the coroner was given the correct information that the role play exercise had changed i i fed back to mr brown who who would have fed
02:06:25 back to mr brown who who would have fed back
02:06:26 back i see
02:06:27 i see did you do you know what ac brown fed back to the coroner uh i don't know right
02:06:33 right now
02:06:34 now you say here as we've seen that you weren't cited on the change to the training
02:06:38 training um let's just look at that a little bit more can we please go to an email from the previous year at nfb triple zero six zero six nine six
02:06:57 now this is an email
02:07:01 from chris sharp to natalie bagnall
02:07:06 and you can see that you are the one you are one of the people to whom it's addressed it's dated the 27th of september 2012 and the subject is far survival training and there are four
02:07:19 survival training and there are four or the four presentations identified there at the top and it looks as if they're attached
02:07:26 attached hi everyone me again about the training it's from christine sharp and just to put the date in its chronological context this is some two months before the lfb's control report was finalized
02:07:39 the lfb's control report was finalized in november 2012. now first are you able to explain uh
02:07:45 uh why
02:07:46 why the
02:07:47 the content of the training was only being finalized in september 2012.
02:07:56 uh no but that was just after the olympics so the focus would have been on the olympics at that point right
02:08:06 right now and one of the matters that christine sharp picks up in this email halfway through it uh
02:08:13 uh is uh
02:08:15 is uh the two presentations or three presentations behavior of fire building construction and fast survival policy power points and she says we will not be touching those what she says is
02:08:26 not be touching those what she says is we will be changing our approach to difficult calls and role play it is our intention to contact everyone before the training starts to consider calls any kind they have taken that have presented
02:08:38 kind they have taken that have presented them with some kind of difficulty we will then hold a short workshop at the beginning of the training to discuss this the role play this time will be pre-recorded simulated fast survival calls which we will ask people to
02:08:50 calls which we will ask people to critique and score now just summarize is that a description of what you described as passive role play it is i see now do you agree given that you received
02:09:03 now do you agree given that you received this email in september 2012 that you were aware of the change to the role play element of fsg training at that time i i was including this email but i don't
02:09:15 i i was including this email but i don't the fact that i responded to vic at that time saying i didn't means i didn't i didn't pick it up i go through a number of a number of emails on a daily basis i would have
02:09:27 emails on a daily basis i would have seen that fire survival training would have been
02:09:30 have been with being organized um i obviously didn't read the email in detail because had i done i would have i would have raised the red flag on it well i think you answered my my question
02:09:41 well i think you answered my my question but did do you accept that on the documents you were aware of the change to the role play element of fsg training before the latino control report was finalized
02:09:49 finalized i wasn't aware that it's changed there's an email there to say i was seated into it what i'm saying is i don't remember um or or don't recall
02:10:00 um or or don't recall reading that because if i did i wouldn't have accepted it well you're not ceased into it with respect you're actually all right yes
02:10:09 yes and it's addressed to hi everyone uh and it was clearly a a round robin from christine sharp who was telling everyone she thought was important to know about it of this change to the role play
02:10:22 it of this change to the role play so the question arises well why didn't you read it and take it on board when it was sent to you given your role
02:10:30 i i can't answer that i don't i don't know
02:10:35 did christine sharp discuss this proposal with you otherwise than in this email not not that i'm aware of no not like i'm recall do i take it from the your answers a
02:10:48 do i take it from the your answers a moment ago that you did nothing having received this email to make sure that this change was not implemented given that it was not in accordance with the national guidance i i don't recall email so i wouldn't
02:10:59 i i don't recall email so i wouldn't have actioned it because i didn't see it or it was it was obviously sent to me but i i don't recall reading it because like i say had i done i would have taken action on it
02:11:12 action on it right
02:11:13 right and did
02:11:14 and did did a long bell not ring with you when you saw this that two years previous uh sm kelly's recommendation in his august 2010 audit report as we've seen was that the role play element or one of
02:11:26 was that the role play element or one of was should the role play elements should be made more robust
02:11:32 no but i agree that the role player should be more robust i'm a pro active role play and hence why i i didn't action this because i don't
02:11:43 i i didn't action this because i don't recall reading it it looks from the passage i've read to you the the decision to change the approach to difficult calls and role play had already been taken
02:11:56 would you have expected that decision to have been
02:11:59 have been run past you first yes and and the fact that the joanns debarge and lindy turner are in that email as well i'll expected that they've been discussed
02:12:10 so this is an email which is telling you first that there's going to be a change which would push you even further away from national guidance secondly it was something that was different from what the national board
02:12:21 different from what the national board was being had been told in 2010 third was as not in accordance with sm kelly's recommendation in august 2010 and fourth was completely out of line with the reporting lines
02:12:33 with the reporting lines and yet you did nothing about it because i don't remember reading the email
02:12:41 can we then move to lfb double zero one zero six one sorry to interrupt you can you just explain this i mean christine scharf is an assistant operations manager so she sits below
02:12:52 operations manager so she sits below mr bagdal for example that's correct in the hierarchy why is she sending this email
02:12:58 email because she's she was the lead trainer she was the most experienced trainer we had in control so she had acted to operations manager previously but then when they removed the operations manager role from
02:13:10 the operations manager role from training and um
02:13:12 um technical group she was put back down to aom but she was still the lead trainer and the most qualified trainer at the time right thank you very much
02:13:23 um can we go to lfb double zero one zero six one zero one that's double zero one zero six one zero one
02:13:35 this is an email from you to dave brown 15th january 2013 subject training audit summary report update jan 12.
02:13:48 probably ought to be update jan 13. that doesn't matter morning dave detailed training audit summary as directed and
02:13:58 and if we look at the attached document it is nfb0106102
02:14:09 we looked at this document earlier in your evidence but if we go to page 2
02:14:13 page 2 under recommendation 5 it says
02:14:17 it says review the role play element of the course and ensure that a robust assessment process is implemented and underneath that in red it says role play was reintroduced into the full day
02:14:28 play was reintroduced into the full day refresher training to confirm and reinforce understanding it is not used during the cbt training package
02:14:39 uh
02:14:42 presumably you didn't tell ac brown about the decision to replace the active role play with passive role play that you'd been told about by aom sharp in september 2012 as we've seen because you
02:14:54 september 2012 as we've seen because you didn't read the email yes
02:15:01 then if we go on to
02:15:03 to nfb triple zero six zero eight seven two
02:15:11 i'm sorry can i just go stick stick with the document we had on the screen there's a further question that i want to ask about it you say role play was re was reintroduced into the full refresher training to confirm and reinforce
02:15:23 training to confirm and reinforce understanding now this document is is dated or sent in january 2013 as we've seen that was before the email exchange of the sixth seventh and eighth of july
02:15:34 of the sixth seventh and eighth of july yes in the middle of the inquest where tom davis questions then got answered and we've seen that exchange so at this stage when you're sending this document to dave brown you aren't aware
02:15:46 to dave brown you aren't aware that the role play had been downgraded to passive that's correct so what you're telling dave brown notwithstanding the email that you you
02:15:57 notwithstanding the email that you you had was actually incorrect or to incomplete
02:16:06 no because that was my aunt that was my that was my belief we got the the review the role parliament that's what sm kelly suggested yes and we introduced that role play element into the 2010 training
02:16:18 role play element into the 2010 training yes and in 2012 it had been downgraded to passive yes but i wasn't aware at that time and that's the reason why uh
02:16:27 uh you say what you say my point is what i'm putting to you is and my point to you is that do you accept that it is it is incorrect uh or incomplete to say that role play
02:16:38 uh or incomplete to say that role play was reintroduced into the full day refresher training to confirm and reinforce into understanding because what was introduced was not reintroduced it was a different form of role play
02:16:52 uh what for 2012 yes yeah but i didn't know at that point so this to me was correct at the time i appreciate that um let's take it in stages never mind about what you thought
02:17:04 stages never mind about what you thought looking at what you were told assuming you had not read that email you accept that the statement role play was reintroduced into the full day refresher training
02:17:16 day refresher training was
02:17:18 was erroneous
02:17:20 erroneous and incomplete because the role play introduced in 2012 was not the same as had been introduced in 2010 yes yes once i was
02:17:31 introduced in 2010 yes yes once i was made aware of it yes now let's then move to the document i wanted to go to you with you which was uh lfb triple zero six zero eight seven two
02:17:45 this now comes back to the february story it's now the 9th of february 2013 and here comes dave brown with an email to you
02:17:56 with an email to you after the
02:17:58 after the ask kicking and he says scott your views dot dot dot and he's forwarding something to you
02:18:07 and it says all i have read the email below and i've discussed the issues with scott as a result i've laid out below a what i see as our position with regards the hearing on tuesday and also be what our
02:18:18 hearing on tuesday and also be what our position will be going forward in terms of the points raised and then if you scroll down please skipping over supervisor training and go down to refresher training
02:18:29 down to refresher training it says this as far as the hearing on tuesday we need to be clear that there is now refresher training every year but we also need to accept that the duration has differed the details are listed below first bullet a full day's training
02:18:42 below first bullet a full day's training was given in 2010 when i'm informed that records show we trained 108 staff a half days training was given in 2011 the reason for this was a half days due
02:18:53 the reason for this was a half days due to the amount of resources required for a full day's training year on year and how this needs to be balanced with other training commitments as well as workload and control in 2011 i'm informed that records show
02:19:04 in 2011 i'm informed that records show we trained 106 staff using a powerpoint presentation validated with role play future half days training sessions will involve a cbt package nb this cbt package would have been used in 2011 but
02:19:16 package would have been used in 2011 but had not been fully developed a full day's training was intended to be delivered in 2012 but pressures of olympic planning meant a half days training was provided but using the same
02:19:27 training was provided but using the same format as in 2010 ie and fs officer now did you respond to this email do you think
02:19:35 think um we've not found one no i probably yes i would have done i always responded to to mr brown yes
02:19:42 yes um do you remember what views you provided
02:19:45 provided him with
02:19:47 him with i don't but i i agreed predominantly with what you said did you tell him that a full day's training was intended to be delivered in 2010 but olympic planning had caused a reduction in the training to half a day
02:19:59 reduction in the training to half a day i i didn't say that um in my in my view it was that they moved because it was a new shift pattern they moved it onto the they moved on to that training right
02:20:12 they moved on to that training right did you tell him that there had been a resourcing issue with providing a full day's training year on year i is aware of the resource of resourcing did you ever ask him for more resources
02:20:23 did you ever ask him for more resources to overcome the issue about resources
02:20:28 i don't recall but i would have asked for more resources but like i said it's not
02:20:33 not it's not quite as as straightforward as just grabbing someone because they need to be controlled trained so a resource would take you know six to 12 months to train
02:20:44 but yes i mean like i say i was always after always after resources which is my heart back again to the fact that i'd like to have outsourced the training
02:20:55 have outsourced the training the email then goes on to say in the future training will consist of alternate full days training as specified in the report and half day cbt packages
02:21:05 packages therefore in 2013 a full day's training will be delivered and in 2014 a half day cbt package then in 2015 a full day and so on
02:21:15 so on now first did you agree with the intended training plan as set out by ac brown yes
02:21:21 brown yes uh it appears from that that the order has been reversed because we were now moving to odd years for the full days training and even years to the half day 12 4 13
02:21:36 12 2012 oh yes i see you mean yeah did yes had he fully grasped this pattern
02:21:44 pattern i think he i think he had i think he was just you know he was he was i don't know what he was thinking to be honest for you but i can i can see that you know we did do a full day in 2012
02:21:55 you know we did do a full day in 2012 and it should have been a half day in 2013 full day in 2014 yes but he's reversed it there right and presumably you didn't no i didn't i didn't pick up on that because i just saw the full day and half day
02:22:06 i just saw the full day and half day training which is what we intended for the board i didn't necessarily detail the date dates years leaving aside the question of the uh reversing of the alternations pattern do
02:22:18 reversing of the alternations pattern do you know if the coroner was provided with the update about the changes to training set out in this email i i would i i don't know but i would suggest the fact that we were asked to provide an update an update was provided
02:22:33 now there's no mention here that the role play was only passive the royal play itself had been downgraded to passive in the way that we've seen reflected
02:22:42 reflected in the 27th of september 2012 email
02:22:47 did you inform him about that at this time he was aware that there was that obviously because he'd spoken to me about it um so
02:22:57 so yes he was aware can i ask you then to look at your first statement
02:23:04 statement at page 24 paragraph 69
02:23:16 and you say uh six lines up from the bottom of the paragraph
02:23:22 paragraph having received clarification from vic bagnol and that's a reference to the emails of the 6th and 7th of february we've now looked at yes you say i directed him to ensure that
02:23:33 you say i directed him to ensure that the active role play element of the training was reintroduced in line with the recommendation of sm kelly however 2013 was a year in which the training was by cbt via powerpoint so would not have
02:23:44 via powerpoint so would not have included a role play anyway as i will go on to explain formal refresher fsg training instructor or cbt did not then take place consistently until 2017.
02:23:56 consistently until 2017. given that the control staff had not undergone an active role play session since 2010 wasn't there an immediate need to implement the active role play exercise
02:24:07 exercise at once rather than rigidly stick to the biennial training plan potentially yes it was you know and in hindsight yes but at the time there were
02:24:18 hindsight yes but at the time there were there were other priorities uh they'd done the training at that point um
02:24:24 um so
02:24:25 so the intention was used to carry out the training at the next available time we didn't know at that point that the other the the following fs3 training wasn't carried out as planned
02:24:36 carried out as planned when you say the following fsg training well after um after 2013 we didn't do consistent fsg training up until 2017 due to due to
02:24:48 fsg training up until 2017 due to due to the issues i've raised about you know the competing priorities we had with the introduction of rmc with vision right you say with the benefit of hindsight uh i mean one can agree or disagree about
02:25:00 i mean one can agree or disagree about that but at the time did you perceive there to be an an immediate and indeed urgent need to implement the active role play exercise rather than
02:25:11 rather than sticking to the biennial pattern going back going about that far i i didn't consider it i don't think thank you mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is
02:25:22 convenient moment yes i think it is thank you very much uh well mr hayward we're going to have to break there for the afternoon i'm afraid again i'm going to have to ask you to come back and continue your evidence tomorrow of course and
02:25:33 and we'll resume please at 10 o'clock tomorrow
02:25:36 tomorrow and in the meantime please don't discuss your evidence or anything to do with it of course thank you very much thank you very much thank you
02:25:56 thank you very much 10 o'clock tomorrow
02:26:06 you