Evidence from Scott Hayward (LFB Control Training) on FSG training from 2012-2017. Details resourcing failures, loss of Fire Safety Officer input, and training gaps between Lakanal fire and Grenfell.
00:00:28 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to continue hearing evidence from mr scott hayward would you ask mr taylor to come in please thank you
00:00:47 good morning mr good morning sir we're ready for another day is uh questioning i am induced all right thank you very much mr chairman good morning good morning members of the panel mr hayward good morning to you good morning sir i'd like
00:00:58 morning to you good morning sir i'd like now to turn to the topic of the 2012 training
00:01:02 training and the fire safety input into it or otherwise can we look please at your first witness statement at page 26. and look again
00:01:13 statement at page 26. and look again on that page at paragraph 76 you say there in 2012 to 13 trainers and a fire safety officer provided fsg training during the 4-hour training slot within the short shift to
00:01:26 training slot within the short shift to 89 81 of all available staff and then you have an exhibit this was not the duration intended by the board and you've seen we saw that yesterday
00:01:35 yesterday and i think you confirmed in your statement that that is the same or substantially the same to the fsg training presentation that we looked at yes now um it's right i think that that was never amended or refreshed why is that
00:01:50 i do not i do not know is it the actual presentation itself yes i don't think it was updated at that point but updated later on
00:01:57 later on now if we go to your third witness statement at page five please we can see a little bit more detail at paragraph 16.2 on that page at the top of the screen
00:02:08 top of the screen you have uh the second of the four
00:02:12 four presentations uh you've identified three in this paragraph here but this one is building structures types and concepts and you'll remember we saw that yesterday yes and it says this building types and concepts
00:02:23 it says this building types and concepts and then in the second line a fire safety officer fso would deliver the presentation to new entrants it was intended that an fsa would also deliver the presentation to control room officers cros during annual refresher
00:02:35 officers cros during annual refresher training
00:02:36 training however there were resourcing difficulties in 2012 to 13 which meant that fsos were unable to deliver the training and the presentation was therefore delivered to existing cras by
00:02:47 therefore delivered to existing cras by the control ost team to the best of my recollection building types and concepts and fire evacuation training introduction to fire evacuation and human behavior were delivered in the same training session
00:02:59 same training session so can we take it from that the training material
00:03:02 material at that stage was the same as used in the uh initial training in 2010 i believe it was the same or very similar to and the fsos in fact did not
00:03:13 similar to and the fsos in fact did not deliver the fsg training in 2012 to 13 as a matter of fact i believe they they done some of the some of the um presentations but due to due to their um
00:03:25 presentations but due to due to their um their workload they couldn't provide all of them at the time that we allocated right i mean you say here that the fsos were unable to deliver the training and the presentation was delivered by the
00:03:37 the presentation was delivered by the ost
00:03:38 ost that's in relation to that presentation in in in general sir that's that's the case but i do believe they did attend some that they could but as i say due to
00:03:49 some that they could but as i say due to workload they couldn't deliver them all and hence hence why put that in there right you see the impression i get from what i've just read to you is that the fsas were not at all involved in delivering any of the
00:04:00 involved in delivering any of the training of that presentation in that year 23 2012 and 13. is that wrong um
00:04:08 um yes i believe it is so we should qualify that to say fsas were able to deliver only some or some how would you how would you amend that paragraph i i would
00:04:19 would you amend that paragraph i i would i would say that that um they they did attend some of their courses um but were unable to deliver on every occasion due to workload so it was uneven it was uneven yet
00:04:30 was uneven it was uneven yet and what were the resourcing difficulties in 2012 to 13 i just think the fsos had other other tasks to do obviously their role wasn't um to deliver training as such uh they had
00:04:42 deliver training as such uh they had other tasks and and they were tasked elsewhere
00:04:45 elsewhere um on those on those times right can you give us a sense of what it was they were tasked onto i don't know i i i assume they were doing fire safety you know going to check
00:04:57 fire safety you know going to check buildings or i don't know right did you ever go to the head of fire safety at the time and ask
00:05:05 and ask why it was that fire safety officers had found themselves tasked onto other things so as to make them unavailable for your presentation the training team had liaised with the fire safety
00:05:16 had liaised with the fire safety officers and they gave the data they could be available and the ones they couldn't we delivered ourselves well clearly it was inadequate because they could only make themselves available some of the time right
00:05:27 some of the time right on this occasion yes yes really what i'm trying to get a feel for is why your department you in particular did not push the fso
00:05:37 the fso department the fire safety department uh to give you the time and the staff the resources from them you needed to make sure that you trained the control room well i mean we did ask and they they
00:05:50 well i mean we did ask and they they couldn't deliver it at all i mean i can't
00:05:52 can't i can't ask any more of them if they were tasked elsewhere then they were unavailable so you know i asked a question they couldn't provide it all so we delivered some of it ourselves who was your link
00:06:03 some of it ourselves who was your link person in the fire safety department who you would to whom you would go and and ask for training people i i don't recall his name i believe he's still in the fire brigade
00:06:15 believe he's still in the fire brigade though but i don't i don't recall his name he was at the ac the dac
00:06:20 the dac a dac of fire safety right did you ask ac chandler or ac brown to
00:06:26 to as it were escalate this for you
00:06:30 for you not the oracle why is that because i was speaking directly with the fire safety right i mean given the importance of fire safety as an input into control room training
00:06:42 as an input into control room training which we've seen from the 1993 circular the 1994 keeping people safe document and the list of training topics of which four involved fsa input we saw that
00:06:54 four involved fsa input we saw that yesterday did given the significance of the role of the fire safety department can you account for why it is that you and your role and those senior to you in
00:07:05 and your role and those senior to you in their roles did not bring home firmly to the fire safety department the need for them to make resources available so that you could train control room staff properly
00:07:16 could train control room staff properly um i i can't i can't now um like i said i did
00:07:21 i did you know we did attempt uh to to get fire safety obviously to deliver that training but i i couldn't get them and and i suppose no that's that's where i'd like to leave
00:07:32 no that's that's where i'd like to leave it all right now let's look and see what ac brown says in his statement can we look at his second witness statement please that is at lfb triple zero eight four zero two zero page ten paragraph
00:07:45 four zero two zero page ten paragraph twenty
00:07:50 he says this from what i remember ac turek and i were satisfied that the involvement of the fsas in the design and content of the new fsg training package was sufficient
00:08:02 new fsg training package was sufficient and we jointly agree that they should not be required to deliver the fsg for refresher training to brigade cros the factors that influenced that decision were
00:08:10 were firstly fsas were already involved in the delivery of all initial or induction training of brigade cras secondly based on feedback from their line managers i was satisfied with the
00:08:21 line managers i was satisfied with the level of competency of the control training team to deliver all the aspects of the new fsg training package and thirdly given the resource constraints the brigade was operating under we felt
00:08:32 the brigade was operating under we felt that fsas were better utilized in undertaking their core functions rather than being deployed to deliver a training package to brigade cras i felt that this was a sensible way
00:08:43 i felt that this was a sensible way forward in the light of the performance targets and budgetary constraints facing the brigade i accept that this decision was contrary to national guidance but based on sound reasoning and professional judgment it was a decision
00:08:55 professional judgment it was a decision for individual fire and rescue services to exercise discretion over the extent to which they applied national guidance now
00:09:03 now there are a number of things in there i want to ask you about first
00:09:08 first uh were you aware at the time of the threefold basis of the decision by
00:09:15 by mr ac church and ac brown that set out there i i don't recall i don't recall it at that time but i knew they were the episodes where we were tasked elsewhere which is what i stated did ac brown
00:09:28 which is what i stated did ac brown discuss
00:09:29 discuss anything of what he said in that paragraph with you at the time by which i mean 2012 or 13. i i don't recall at that at that time but quite possibly right do you know whether and there was
00:09:40 right do you know whether and there was any risk assessment done about whether it was safe to drop fso involvement from fsg refresher training or substantially to do so not not that i'm
00:09:51 substantially to do so not not that i'm not i'm aware of
00:09:56 did you know anything of this decision at all did you know that it had even been taken not that i recall no and can we take it that you can't help me
00:10:05 me with the question whether it was approved by the latino house board i i can't like these are would i be right in thinking a matter for mr brown to answer i would i would say so yes let's look at
00:10:17 i would i would say so yes let's look at some emails can we go to lfb triple zero five eight two five six please
00:10:26 yes and now let's go to page one at the foot of page one you've got an you've got an email there of the 22nd of february 2012 from chris sharp to joanne stebards
00:10:38 and you can also see that you're copied in on that as is lindsay turner you see that i do and if you uh turn the page
00:10:50 at the end of the first paragraph she says
00:10:56 uh in the last sentence we have also lost the fire safety input as their department is being subsumed from the end of march what did what did she mean that the fire
00:11:07 what did what did she mean that the fire safety department was being subsumed
00:11:12 um
00:11:15 there was obviously a realigning of the of the brigade of brigade department at that time
00:11:21 that time and it was tuned into another department is that the reason why there was no fire safety presentation of the training from 2012 at least so far as you were aware not not i don't think it was that was the reason i think that they just come
00:11:34 the reason i think that they just come under a different a different lead as opposed to being subsumed into into other work um i don't think that was the reason i think it was because they had fire safety work to do
00:11:46 fire safety work to do and obviously there they were limited in in numbers i don't know now we have some smith's response to this
00:11:55 this uh if you uh go up please to page one and you can see on the 25th of february 2012 joanne stibbard that's joe smith as we know emails you
00:12:06 know emails you and lindsey turner hi scott and lindsay and this is in the same email chain before we have even started our annual refresher training we are already being told we have lost fire safety input into a course which 1093 specifies should be
00:12:19 a course which 1093 specifies should be in the course part of the issues arising from lachnal is that we had no fire safety input and therefore did not provide staff with correct and relevant advice my key issue to chris was that we have
00:12:31 my key issue to chris was that we have no need to publish the cbt immediately as we can roll this i think she means role as with two r2ls roll this out as part of the training this year however it needs to go with fire safety input
00:12:44 it needs to go with fire safety input not cbt and role play are we all in agreement that our full one-day refresher on fsg is not cbt and is interactive if so can this be explained to chris um did you agree with her about the
00:12:55 um did you agree with her about the importance of the fire safety input into the delivery of the fsg training uh i would have said yes i mean i don't i don't recall but i would certainly agree yes
00:13:08 uh and her position it seems and we can ask her about this is that the biennial refresher training for fsg would be fully one day with role play and critically fire safety input
00:13:21 play and critically fire safety input yes yes now you then reply to this email the following day and we can look at that at the top of this email run uh you to join stevards and lindsay turner 26 february 2012
00:13:32 turner 26 february 2012 it is essential that there is a distinction between the one day full course and the interim refresher has agreed on day one i do not believe that we have lost fire safety we just need to follow through on what changes they're
00:13:43 follow through on what changes they're making in their department and ensure that our training is included in the transition lindsay can you communicate this to chris please and ensure that the one day course is interactive with fs input and
00:13:54 course is interactive with fs input and role play
00:13:55 role play now it looks as if the from that that you agreed with the positions som smith was taking at least prospectively looking forward yes yes why did you think it was essential that there was a distinction between the one
00:14:07 there was a distinction between the one day full course and the interim refresher training because that's what we agreed at the board and that's what we agreed going forward i see and why did you not believe that you had lost fire safety input
00:14:18 fire safety input i i didn't i didn't know we'd lost fire safety input at that point or it did not so much the fire safety input but the content of the fire safety well joanne's steve smith
00:14:29 steve smith had said in terms in her email we've just looked at that they had been told you had been told that quotes we have lost fire safety input into a course which 1093 specifies
00:14:40 into a course which 1093 specifies should be in the course did you not agree with that yes so we lost the fire safety delivery side so the actual um a fire safety officer coming to deliver the presentation but the presentation and associated notes
00:14:53 the presentation and associated notes were still available well uh but that isn't fire safety input in in delivery is it no no it's just fire safety input historically imprinted into
00:15:05 safety input historically imprinted into the presentations yes so you had lost fire safety input in
00:15:10 in in the sense in which is contemplated by 1093
00:15:14 1093 namely delivery by uh fire safety experts yes
00:15:20 yes yes yes did you take issue um
00:15:24 um did you take did you take this problem to anybody more senior such as ac brown or at this time uh ac chandler i was i spoke to fire safety
00:15:35 spoke to fire safety at the time about as i've already stated speak to
00:15:41 speak to the the ac in charge i can't recall he's not i can't recall his name um
00:15:46 um and asked about fire safety but as i previously stated um they had been retasked and i they weren't available on certain times during that period was it was it ac turek
00:15:58 turek no it was the one below him right
00:16:02 right now
00:16:05 is it right that from this point on notwithstanding your own views as we've seen and and particularly som smith's views with which you agreed as you've told us there was no fire safety
00:16:16 there was no fire safety input in the fsg refresher training by way at least of delivery no not for not for all the training no right
00:16:25 right the presentation was delivered but by our own trainers so if we stand back and look at the 2012 training is it right to say that the first
00:16:33 first and last time that control staff received fsg training in accordance with national guidance was 2010.
00:16:44 no i believe that in 2012 fire safety training was delivered in that in that program um whether it was by an fso that delivered it or the presentation delivered by
00:16:56 delivered by a trainer
00:16:57 a trainer so
00:16:58 so that's what i believe yes but we've seen i'm sorry we've we've seen that as part of national guidance the 1994 keeping people safe document had in it
00:17:09 people safe document had in it a
00:17:11 guidance if you like yes that it should be that the training for on fsg should be delivered by fire safety experts yes so so we yes so for some of that
00:17:24 yes so so we yes so for some of that some of that period we didn't follow the national guidance as per but fire safety input was delivered by trainers yeah well let me put it try and
00:17:35 trainers yeah well let me put it try and get this a different way after 2010 was there an ever a time other than sporadically when fire safety personnel within the london fibrograde delivered the training to control room
00:17:47 delivered the training to control room staff
00:17:50 no we're not not not sporadically yes no and you realize that as of 2012 or the very latest february 2013 documents we've been looking at and why at that point did you not not do
00:18:01 and why at that point did you not not do anything either to ensure bang the table for want of a better expression that the full fsg refresher training as per the national guidance was delivered to the cras
00:18:11 cras uh if we
00:18:13 uh if we you know go back to what i use ac brown has obviously made that decision um and therefore that was the decision that was made
00:18:22 and i want to look at fsg training between 2013 and june 2017 looking at that period is it fair to summarize your evidence
00:18:33 is it fair to summarize your evidence which you set out in paragraphs 77 and 78 of your first statement which we can have up if we need to that existing control staff never received a full day
00:18:44 received a full day of fsg refresher training with role play and fire safety delivery that had been planned and approved by the board
00:18:53 the board promised to the coroner after the national house fire yes i can say that now that trinity of essentials was missing for a full four years wasn't it
00:19:04 missing for a full four years wasn't it yes yes
00:19:06 yes yes can you account for why your control staff
00:19:10 staff didn't receive the necessary fsg training um yes because from um obviously after um we weren't outsourced the
00:19:22 um we weren't outsourced the project to deliver a new mobilizer system was implemented so from 2013 um
00:19:30 um control and the trainers specifically refocused on to delivering the new mobilizing system which was due to be delivered in 2014
00:19:41 delivered in 2014 so we had
00:19:43 so we had less than 14 months to initially deliver that that mobilizer system so everything had to be obviously the priority was to get a working mobilizing system
00:19:54 system um into london fire and that's that's what we did or that's what we started to do yes um
00:20:02 um the priority was the mobilizing system it was did anybody
00:20:07 anybody ever actually sit down and weigh the competing priorities so far as they were competing as opposed to complementary namely the mobilizing system
00:20:19 namely the mobilizing system as against training of fsg on fsg no not that i'm aware of can we look at paragraph 79 of your first statement please page 30. page 30 of lfb triple
00:20:32 page 30 of lfb triple zero five five one nine one para 79
00:20:36 para 79 did you say this as outlined above the period between 2009 and 2017 as a whole has been a very busy period with significant staffing issues system problems and restructuring during this
00:20:48 problems and restructuring during this time there has not been much stability in which to fully take stock of training needs and deliver all the training that we would have liked staff to receive
00:21:00 at any point did you take stock of the training needs for control
00:21:05 uh yes after 2015 after after the system had gone live that's when we started looking at the the training again and how we can run the training alongside
00:21:17 how we can run the training alongside alongside still trying to deliver vision because of the issues we're having with vision
00:21:27 the period you identify there 2009 and 2017
00:21:33 2017 encompasses the four years between the date of the latino house fire july 2009 and the date of the latino house inquest january to march 2013
00:21:46 january to march 2013 is it the case that even during that sub period of that longer period you identify
00:21:53 identify there was no full stock take of the training needs no no i was i was highlighting there the fact that from 2009 obviously in that period we'd had a shift change we've
00:22:04 period we'd had a shift change we've moved sis we've moved um uh control rooms uh we've had the olympics um we were going to be outsourced uh i was just encompassing that whole period was a period of change
00:22:16 that whole period was a period of change for control as a whole i wasn't being specific about that not taking stock of training during that time you see what i'm really trying to get at is that although for all of those reasons you've
00:22:27 although for all of those reasons you've identified this was a period of change for control there were countervailing considerations which do you accept should have forced you
00:22:36 you to focus very closely on the on the control room's training needs and the delivery of that training namely the latino house fire the actions identified
00:22:47 latino house fire the actions identified by the lfb in response to it and then after march 2013 the observations of the coroner yes so so whilst we didn't we didn't deliver
00:22:59 so whilst we didn't we didn't deliver that training as uh as stated to the coroner
00:23:03 coroner um
00:23:05 um fsg training did did take place you know um what with cu training so we did we were addressing the issue of communications between uh ceus and and the control room during
00:23:17 uh ceus and and the control room during that period certainly up until the end of 2014
00:23:21 of 2014 before we moved into training for vision um and and there was some other training went on so so rift training for staff but but you're right the actual the actual training that we said we would
00:23:32 actual training that we said we would deliver wasn't delivered during that period
00:23:35 period would you agree that the control staff never received any training on what had actually happened at lacanal house
00:23:46 i mean they were they were trained what we identified from from la canal house um our training documentation reflected that in the in the new training
00:23:58 that in the in the new training you say it reflected it um so so sorry my question is slightly different yeah so for clarity then uh after 1093 we we aligned 1093 with some enhancements on the basis of of what
00:24:11 enhancements on the basis of of what happened at la canal would you say on the basis of what happened at la canal skipping to november 2012 where you have the control report which is the lfb's considered opinion
00:24:24 which is the lfb's considered opinion after four years of three years and a half years of investigation of what had happened in the control room ready for the coroner at that stage
00:24:35 ready for the coroner at that stage did anybody in the brigade take that report and fashion a training program around its conclusions no why is that um well i'm not saying no operation they
00:24:48 um well i'm not saying no operation they they did and i think from a control perspective we did um if if you're asking about about lack now and it's and the operational effects of the of the incident then then no
00:25:00 of the of the incident then then no because control weren't involved in the operational elements of of that and we were we were training from a control perspective there are conclusions in we can go to
00:25:11 there are conclusions in we can go to them if you like there were conclusions in the latino control report because it's a control report about the defects the deficiencies in the call handling by control room officers some
00:25:23 handling by control room officers some of whom were present at both incidents lacking and grenfell as it turned out and my question is why did nobody look at those paragraphs of that report for example 293 296 310 from my own
00:25:35 example 293 296 310 from my own recollection and fashion a specific training program which identified the errors and trained them out
00:25:46 out at the training staff that you know created a package to which which aligned to the
00:25:53 to the to where our deficiencies were and i believe that we were delivering that training
00:26:02 yes but the packages as we've seen were developed from 2010 quite early in 2010 march many many
00:26:11 many many well many years in fact before the november 2012 control report was finalized and the lessons had fully been learned and crystallized into a formal way
00:26:20 way for presentation publicly my question is that at that stage late 2012 why did nobody take a completely fresh look at the cro training look at the errors identified by the
00:26:31 look at the errors identified by the brigade itself and fashion a new package around those never mind the past um i mean i i don't recall now but i believe that at the time we did do we did do an update
00:26:43 the time we did do we did do an update presentation um on uh on la canal and and um and the delivery of training but i don't believe it changed a significant amount
00:26:55 believe it changed a significant amount um from recollection and do you accept that it was important to embed in the minds of each and every member of that control room that that lachnal house was an event
00:27:07 was an event which should never happen again um yes i believe i think it's important that we should train state train staff and as we've as we've seen over the past two days i
00:27:18 we've seen over the past two days i think i've highlighted that in in my communications um
00:27:23 um you know and and i think that the the presentation at that time did highlight the shortfalls that we had and i think one of those short forms was about the bond the bonding for example
00:27:34 about the bond the bonding for example and we've moved away from that and trained to move away from that well we'll look at that i think in in a moment in in general terms do you remember a time when either you or ac brown
00:27:45 or ac brown ever
00:27:46 ever went to the latin house board before um
00:27:50 before um the spring of 2013 or the latino house working group or the odcb after april or may 2013
00:27:59 may 2013 and tell them in all honesty that the fsg training that you were delivering fell short of what the coroner had been told based on the november 2012 latino control report not our recall why is
00:28:12 control report not our recall why is that
00:28:13 that as far as you're concerned why is that because i i believe that the training we were delivering um was
00:28:21 um was um
00:28:22 um was based on on the the gap analysis and the fact that um what happened at la canal and like i say you know a good example it would be the bonding and we'd moved away from that and and that was what one of the
00:28:34 and and that was what one of the criticisms at the time yes but the gap analysis wasn't the totality
00:28:40 totality was it the filling the gap didn't solve lachenal no but there were enhancements to that training package there was the 1093 plus the additions that that we identified
00:28:51 that that we identified that's something let's look at this a little bit more closely uh
00:28:54 uh in the sense of looking at the training delivery from 2013 and what senior management are told can we can we start by going back again up to the lingeridge review of january
00:29:06 to the lingeridge review of january 2013. that's lfb triple zero eight five eight five four
00:29:14 now this version i'm showing you here is one in respect of which ac brown put his comments
00:29:21 comments uh in response to dexter's dc dexter's comments and we can see that at page 14 if we go to page 14 please and look at action 12. this is uh
00:29:34 action reference 12 under the path of this report which is review process findings and
00:29:42 and action on entry log is fsg refresher training
00:29:45 training expected outcome recurring program we've seen that before and then if you look at review process findings
00:29:54 findings and again i think we've seen this before as well it says all control personnel complete fsg training on an annual basis and there's a comment next to it uh oh rather a question
00:30:07 uh oh rather a question in black in the bubble which is from uh
00:30:13 from a dc dexter who says please tell me how many did complete it each year since 2010 express expressed as x out of y
00:30:24 2010 express expressed as x out of y for each year please and in red type you can see uh comments by way of response those come from ac brown take that from me and he says
00:30:35 he says 2010
00:30:36 2010 108 out of 116 staff have been refreshed 2011 106 of 116 staff have been refreshed
00:30:45 refreshed to 2012 94 of 104 staff have been refreshed and then the question below that from dc dexter are there any who have not done
00:30:57 dexter are there any who have not done it in any year and then we have ac brown's reply no all staff have completed at least one refresher session
00:31:09 first d did you provide ac brown with those statistics that he gave dc dexter i don't believe i did do you know where he got them from um he may have contacted ost directly
00:31:26 do you know how those statistics were generated from the spreadsheets i would i would surmise
00:31:35 and the spreadsheets were the manual input spreadsheets we discussed yes the first day of your evidence yes now then if we scroll up to page six in this document you can see what
00:31:46 this document you can see what uh group manager lindridge says in this draft
00:31:50 draft and of course don't forget this draft is the draft as it stood before the comments we've just seen for obvious reasons but um he says under key findings
00:31:58 findings uh on page six this is in the key findings section this is about action 12 fsg refresher training as you can see and he says control training records
00:32:10 and he says control training records have not recorded fsg training for two watches watches two and three
00:32:16 and three in 2011 conversations with members of control staff and managers suggest that this is a recording error were you aware of that uh no
00:32:26 uh no but but as i've stated before the you know recording of training in in the spreadsheets is is not a perfect method as we as we know
00:32:39 no uh now if we then go look back at the figures please at page 14
00:32:47 can you help
00:32:50 uh explain how the how information was provided to ac brown that 106 of 116 staff had been refreshed in 2011 if
00:33:01 staff had been refreshed in 2011 if there were no records for two watches no i can't no and on the basis that there were 16 control staff per watch that's inexplicable and unless it's been updated since then i i don't i don't
00:33:14 updated since then i i don't i don't know
00:33:15 know uh well it's possible that it would have been updated or might have been updated what are you saying between the 4th of january 2013 uh and the uh 16th of january 2013
00:33:27 16th of january 2013 when uh ac brown replied to dc dexter's questions i i don't i don't know i think that's just a you know right um well let's see if you can help us with something you you might
00:33:38 can help us with something you you might know can we go back to your first statement please at page 25 and look at paragraph 74.
00:33:49 uh and um you can see that uh well
00:33:52 well it's 26 in fact it starts at 74. because we've got the statistics within that paragraph if we turn to page seven to 26 you can see the table there
00:34:04 the table there and
00:34:05 and we looked at this yesterday table of fsg training during 2011 to 17 and you have the year the staff the total trained and the percentage if we have that uh on the screen please
00:34:18 if we have that uh on the screen please but at the same time bring up that the figures ac brown provided to dc dexter at lfb triple zero eight five eight five four page fourteen
00:34:29 four page fourteen i'd like to compare them with you
00:34:36 um if we can blow up the bubble if that's possible yes that's very helpful thank you um excellent we can now compare and contrast
00:34:46 contrast um we can see that in your table for 2012 you say that 58 out of 86 had refresher training
00:34:58 had refresher training 61
00:34:59 61 whereas dc dexter was told that for that year
00:35:03 year it was 94 out of 104. are you able to explain that discrepancy
00:35:10 um i'm not i'm sorry
00:35:16 uh and uh
00:35:19 similarly i would is the same answer for 2011. your figures have 114 out of 121 and 94 figure which we looked at yesterday
00:35:30 figure which we looked at yesterday but ac brown has 106 out of 116 for 2011. can you explain that discrepancy i i can't again not
00:35:41 discrepancy i i can't again not now let's look at a different document lfb triple zero six zero seven zero one
00:35:48 you take both documents off the screen and go to this document nfb triple zero six zero seven zero one it's a document we saw yesterday it's the email that came from ac chandler to you on the 28th of june
00:36:01 chandler to you on the 28th of june uh at the very top of the page scott for info you'll recall that i do and you'll recall what he was sending on to you namely the email from richard chandler of the same day to dave brown uh on the lack of audit so this is uh some three
00:36:14 lack of audit so this is uh some three months after three months after the lindridge review or at least the first lineage review you know there was a later one later in the year but if you look at um
00:36:26 if you look at um halfway down the page of ac chandler's email to ac brown in respective action eight you can see it says fsg training to include input from fire safety officers
00:36:38 include input from fire safety officers and then it says completed
00:36:41 15 september 2010 yes this is now an embedded part of the fsg syllabus recommended action none
00:36:53 uh and then if you could go to the very foot of the page you'll need to scroll down
00:36:58 down you can see item 12 uh which is action 12 fsg refresher training completed 8th november 2010
00:37:09 november 2010 yes this program is now in place and then if you go please to the top of page 2 recommended action none do you see that i do when you received the email from ac
00:37:21 when you received the email from ac chandler passing on uh his email to to dave brown did you read it to see what that information was i did i probably read it yes yes and we established that yesterday do you
00:37:32 and we established that yesterday do you know where ac chandler got his information in respect of those two actions from action 8 and action 12. i do not have you assisted him with that review
00:37:43 have you assisted him with that review or coming to those conclusions i don't believe i did because he sent it to me for info yes and do you know why he forwarded that to ac brown
00:37:51 ac brown why he forwarded that to you for info rather
00:37:54 rather because i was in control so he he would have sent it on to me sorry i gobbled the question do you know why he forwarded his email to ac brown to you um
00:38:05 um well i i
00:38:07 well i i because he he i was the control um principal operation manager he just said it to me for info did you notice his findings in respective actions eight and twelve i would have read them through
00:38:19 would have read them through but what he said there in respect of those two actions was incorrect wasn't it yes
00:38:24 it yes do you know why he was falling into error in that way i do not i do not recall did you do anything at the time to correct him about the level of involvement of fire safety officers in fsg deliver training delivery at that point i don't i don't recall did you do
00:38:37 point i don't i don't recall did you do anything to correct him about the difficulties in delivering the refresher training program by 2013 as we've seen from your table he was he was aware as in numbers you mean as in numbers i mean uh no not that i recall now let's
00:38:50 mean uh no not that i recall now let's go into 2014 lfb3037428
00:38:56 third of july 2014.
00:39:00 email from ac brown to adrian bevan second email down on the page adrian please see below as requested
00:39:11 and there are a number of requests that the um
00:39:15 um health and safety department of the lfb had made it seems on request from the hse do you know anything about that um
00:39:26 um i i know that adrian bevin was the health and safety manager there so um
00:39:34 yeah so yeah and obviously the hsc were involved in the in the la canal inquiry yes now you're copied into this email i am and if we look at point c on page two a third of the way down page two
00:39:51 uh it says training delivery detail of attendance of staff at training i.e collective training records when and how many staff etc
00:40:01 and then
00:40:03 you can see that there is an insert in red
00:40:07 red which comes from ac brown 277 individual first survival guidance training sessions have been carried out run by senior control officers in addition to the regular control watch
00:40:19 addition to the regular control watch training sessions these training sessions took place between february 2011 and june 2014 all available control officers have received additional training in call handling techniques and handling of fire
00:40:31 handling techniques and handling of fire survival guidance calls now can you help us with what and quotes individual first survival guidance training session was
00:40:42 um i think i think what he's trying to say there uh is the fact that since since that bill between that time frame
00:40:53 since that bill between that time frame there
00:40:54 there um
00:40:55 um 277 staff
00:40:57 277 staff have had five fire survival guidance training sessions
00:41:03 uh that's your reading of it now is it yeah well yes that's that's how i see it
00:41:09 right
00:41:13 when you saw it at the time was that your reading of it then oh i i can't i can't recall
00:41:21 so that was on your reading of it now at least the annual fsg refresher training uh
00:41:30 uh yes
00:41:32 yes and might i suppose include the initial training in in uh well no that is the that's 2011 to 2014 so it would not have included the initial training in 2011. 2010 sorry
00:41:43 2010 sorry i i don't believe so did you provide ac brand with the information uh
00:41:49 uh yourself that 277 members of staff had been trained in fire survival guidance i'm i'm i don't recall do you know who who did or he may have
00:42:00 do you know who who did or he may have asked he may have asked um you know the the somme or the ost at the time to provide him with that information right and it sounds from what you've been telling us this morning that ac
00:42:11 been telling us this morning that ac brown had direct contact to members of your
00:42:14 your your department not just your immediate reports but their immediate reports yes yes you did right and would he frequently or habitually let's say um talk to them about matters of granular
00:42:26 talk to them about matters of granular detail without including you if he couldn't if he couldn't get hold of me or one of the songs he would he would go direct if he needed that information yes but would he not loop you in uh not if he was doing it by phone not
00:42:38 uh not if he was doing it by phone not necessarily right
00:42:42 did you not ask him politely
00:42:46 politely to make sure that you were kept abreast of every single request and response that he was making of those of your immediate reports or sub reports um
00:42:56 um no i don't i don't believe i i did i mean i could have been i could have been away in which case he wouldn't have contacted me at all because i was absent so i i think and because at this time you know we could be out and about and
00:43:07 you know we could be out and about and won't be able to provide information if he wanted it there and then so i would expect him to go further down the chain if he needed to yes but
00:43:16 yes but why did you expect him not to include you if he was communicating by email if he was communicated by email i would expect to be to be ceced in but i mean this could have been a telephone call in
00:43:27 this could have been a telephone call in which case he wouldn't right so does that mean that
00:43:34 habitually you didn't know what communications were being had
00:43:39 being had between ac brown and members of the ost no i don't i certainly don't think it was habitually i think it was if you couldn't get hold of me or one of the songs so i think on occasion
00:43:50 songs so i think on occasion that there were occasions many or few you can't tell us in in which you were kept out of the information loop as between ac brown and members of the ost if it was a telephone conversation
00:44:01 if it was a telephone conversation potentially that could be the case now he says as we can see in the second bullet all available control officers have received that additional training in call handling techniques and handling of far survival guidance calls what was
00:44:13 of far survival guidance calls what was that what was that additional training
00:44:18 well that's the post post lacking our training so the training that includes you know moving away from bonding and and uh and adding um flame heat and smoke to to the
00:44:30 smoke to to the um when we're assessing and changing the assess process to reassess that's
00:44:35 that's i think that was the first of the presentations we saw yes yesterday why why was that additional training because on the original original um fsg training before that that wasn't in
00:44:47 training before that that wasn't in there it was it was added to so as i said part of the gap analysis was to was to bring right bring the pot bring the training up to date and then the additional um
00:44:59 the additional um stuff that we bought from that we identified at la canal i see look taking those two bullet points together
00:45:07 together do you agree that that this email gives the impression that fsg training was being delivered effectively in 2014.
00:45:15 in 2014. that's what appears in the email yes yes i mean there's no caveat in here about role play or squeezing a day into four hours or about the loss of
00:45:26 hours or about the loss of safety input there's nothing in there about that no no
00:45:32 no now if we go back please to the table at paragraph 74 of your statement on page 76
00:45:45 bearing in mind that this email is july 2014 looking at the statistics for 2011 2012 and 2013 and indeed 2014
00:45:56 and 2013 and indeed 2014 given that you were halfway through that year you can see that 61 or so of staff received some fsg training in 2012
00:46:06 at 28 in 2013
00:46:10 in 2013 and 29
00:46:12 and 29 in 2014
00:46:15 in 2014 you see that yes i do did you make ac brown aware by or in july 2014 that fsg training was being delivered to these proportions of
00:46:26 being delivered to these proportions of staff not explicitly not that i recall no but i did highlight the fact that the ts
00:46:34 the ts sorry the ost um
00:46:38 um were
00:46:39 were their workloads were significantly increasing and we couldn't deliver all training
00:46:44 training well that's quite a broad statement did you tell a ac brown that in 2012 only 61 of staff had received fsg training and in 2013 the figure had
00:46:55 training and in 2013 the figure had collapsed to 28 percent not over a quarter not that recall now why is that uh i i don't recall was it not essential for you to tell your line manager in in
00:47:06 for you to tell your line manager in in relation to control that only a court just over a quarter of your staff in 2013 had received any fsg training at all
00:47:13 all and that that was a refresher year as
00:47:16 as as as i explained um 2013
00:47:21 2013 obviously the priorities changed and i couldn't i couldn't deliver ever all of it and i had to prioritize and the priority was delivering the mobilizing system
00:47:31 system can you account for why ac brown made those unqualified statements to adrian bevin that we've seen in the in light of these statistics i cannot
00:47:45 can you tell us whether anybody ever did an exercise to know whether they were individual cros forming part of the uh the untrained segment
00:47:58 uh the untrained segment of
00:47:59 of these popul these percentages who remained untrained in
00:48:05 in let's go from 2012 2012 2013 and 2014.
00:48:13 sorry could you repeat the question well yes let's look at it differently in each year
00:48:17 year you've got 61 28 29 did anybody ever do an exercise on a on a per crow basis to see whether uh in the untrained segment in other
00:48:28 uh in the untrained segment in other words the percentage which who remained untrained uh they were common from year to year to yeah i firstly i i don't think any any staff were untrained at all they'd all
00:48:40 were untrained at all they'd all received um firefighter guidance training not not um you know at some stage and none of them no no members of staff had not received any fire survival guidance training at
00:48:51 any fire survival guidance training at all no i don't mean and and also
00:48:55 and also i mean i i put this table together when preparing this statement and took it from those spreadsheets and as i've highlighted that i think those spreadsheets are are subject to error so whilst these these
00:49:07 subject to error so whilst these these are the figures that i could find um
00:49:11 um so
00:49:13 so the answer to the question is is no i didn't i didn't raise the fact that they were untrained because in my view there were no untrained staff they were all trained the fact that they
00:49:24 were all trained the fact that they didn't all do the refresher training as specified um
00:49:30 um i i agree i agree with right i think the point really mr taywood is looking at those figures even from 2012 but certainly 2013 2014
00:49:43 2013 2014 did it ever occur to you that one or more of your staff had slipped through the net entirely and hadn't picked up this additional training in any of those years
00:49:53 years um
00:49:56 i would say i would say no sir i don't think that is the case no i i don't think i don't think that staff slipped through the net i think we did trained or i didn't think we did train all the staff
00:50:08 all the staff i don't think people did slip through the net why do you think people had not slipped through them because it was done it was done by it by watch and you know we ensure that those
00:50:19 and you know we ensure that those watches the supervisors the ops managers ensure that their staff done that training
00:50:24 training right
00:50:25 right you know and i i reiterates i think it's important the the fact that that the the recording that you use him was what was not good
00:50:36 that you use him was what was not good and and i do think there was more train than what stated here this is just what i found when i put this statement together
00:50:41 together all right thank you very much that's helpful did anybody at the time ever do the exercise that you did when putting this statement together
00:50:50 together by way of an examination of the statistics to see what the percentages were i i i don't know i i i wasn't i didn't do it i wasn't aware if anybody did
00:51:01 wasn't aware if anybody did did it occur to you to ask someone to do that task at any stage no
00:51:08 no coming back to the chairman's question the slipping through the net it as a matter of mathematics though it can't be right can it just looking at the figures for 20 uh 12 13 and 14
00:51:20 12 13 and 14 uh
00:51:21 uh although of course the totals of 28 and 29 uh are greater than the uh the balance
00:51:27 balance just about of the 61 percent uh namely the 49
00:51:33 as in 2013 and 2014 those low percentages must mean as a matter of mathematics um that there was a group of cross who had been trained neither in 2013 nor in 2014 and when i
00:51:45 neither in 2013 nor in 2014 and when i say trained i mean refresher trained on fsg
00:51:48 fsg as a matter of mathematics that must be correct
00:51:51 correct potent potentially but as i say these figures are in my view unsafe
00:51:59 but but i take i take the point
00:52:03 yes well you say they're unsafe and you put them forward to the inquiry on the basis that they're at least reasonably reliable i put them i put them forward but i've also highlighted in my
00:52:14 but i've also highlighted in my statement that the the method of recording that we're using control is is subject to error yes you haven't quantified the error
00:52:25 you haven't quantified the error no i can't i i can't i can only say that because we added we added training staff as we went along certainly for the vision it was just a different ways that they were put into the system right
00:52:36 they were put into the system right can we leave it this way then given the presence of potential error that these figures all they're not precisely mathematically accurate we're broadly accurate
00:52:44 accurate we can are they broadly reliable from the information i took yes right and can i ask you whether you've seen any information since putting these figures together that would
00:52:56 figures together that would lead you to believe that they were unreliable broadly unreliable no
00:53:05 no now let's look at lfb triple zero three zero one zero eight
00:53:14 um this is an email from
00:53:17 from uh
00:53:18 uh at the very foot of the screen from karen mason of mopac
00:53:25 of mopac and that is the mayor's office for policing and crime and it's dated the 17th of november 2014 to vic bangla copy to you brigade control audit is the topic
00:53:37 control audit is the topic and if you look at the body of the email the subject matter is the access that she's asking for to various people to discuss certain matters including you
00:53:48 discuss certain matters including you uh and if you go to page uh
00:53:51 uh well
00:53:52 well it includes the training team as well if you go please to page three
00:54:02 uh you can see in fact we probably want the bottom of page two as well we can see this is an earlier email in the string and this is the 14th of november 2014
00:54:14 and this is the 14th of november 2014 mason to you copied to vic bagnell this time
00:54:18 time and she says hi scott i've gone through my work program and think that a one full day at merton should enable me to complete the field work if you can arrange for me to have access to the following people yourself to discuss riff and go through matching
00:54:31 to discuss riff and go through matching over time to shortages and kpis ost and then training team at the very foot of your screen and then over the page to page three she says bullet point discuss how they
00:54:43 she says bullet point discuss how they ensure all staff receive fsg training at least annually and that all staff attend training courses that are in response to an operational change you see that yeah that's what she wanted
00:54:54 you see that yeah that's what she wanted to do if we then go to the top of this email chain skipping over the email i've just shown you you uh uh
00:55:04 agree i think with her uh on a meeting on the 24th monday the 24th of november to carry out her work now is it right first of all that this
00:55:15 now is it right first of all that this audit of controlled by mopac was a one-off
00:55:19 one-off at least at the time was the first time that it happened i believe so yes um
00:55:24 um at that time was there any plan for mopac to come back and do a regular audit
00:55:29 audit um
00:55:32 not that i'm aware of not that i can recall
00:55:35 recall did you have a meeting with her on the 24th of november i i've had i've had a couple of meetings okay with karen yes right you say you've had a couple around this time for that purpose but possibly yeah obviously the emails state
00:55:46 possibly yeah obviously the emails state that so yeah i'll say yeah right what information was provided to her in respect of fsg training during the meetings you had with her
00:55:55 with her i don't recall do you know what access she was given to training records or other documents spreadsheets for example she was given she was given access as far as i'm aware did you have discussions yourself with
00:56:06 did you have discussions yourself with her about fsg training um i i don't i don't recall but if she asked me i would have answered did
00:56:14 did did miss mason have access to the same documents that you had access to when preparing your um statistics at paragraph 74 of your first witness statement i can only
00:56:25 first witness statement i can only assume so right if we look at the report that was sent to the corporate management board in february 2014 that is at lfb 3044640
00:56:42 this is an lf epa report internal audit progress report quarter 3 2014 to 15. it's it's dated the 9th of march
00:56:54 it's it's dated the 9th of march um
00:56:55 um but um it was um sent under an 11th of february email um
00:57:05 if you look at the summary and we can look at the email if you need to for the date but but i don't think we need to take time on that at the moment but if we go to the summary on page one it says this report summarizes the work carried
00:57:16 this report summarizes the work carried out under the internal audit shared service agreement by the mayor's office for policing and crime mopac's director of audit directorate of audit risk and assurance
00:57:28 directorate of audit risk and assurance dara in the third quarter of 2014-15 and then if you go to page four at paragraph 3.1
00:57:40 at the foot of your screen supporting information is the uh title to section three third quarter dara review activity and then at 3.1 it says this since the last
00:57:51 then at 3.1 it says this since the last gpac
00:57:53 gpac uh 12 reports have been finalized these include a review of brigade control all of our station audits a thematic review of station attendance and follow-ups of previous risk-based audit
00:58:05 follow-ups of previous risk-based audit reviews annex b over the page annex b highlights the overall opinion for each review completed areas of effective control and risks together with agreed actions the status of any outstanding
00:58:17 actions the status of any outstanding agreed actions will be reported at the next gpac to allow for effective management action to address the issues identified a further one review is that draft report stage and 10 reviews are in
00:58:29 draft report stage and 10 reviews are in progress
00:58:31 progress now if we look at annex b mr hayward we find that on page 25 let's go to that and there is the summary xanax b and you can see how it's laid out across
00:58:43 and you can see how it's laid out across the page
00:58:45 the page audit title and systems description areas of effective control risk straight recommendation cat and category and then responsibility and action agreed action and finally target date
00:58:57 and finally target date now um just in broad terms does this refer to the audit carried out by karen mason
00:59:03 mason um
00:59:05 um by the time the time stamp does indicate it did yes yes now were you provided with a copy of this document
00:59:14 document i i don't recognize it right
00:59:17 right let's see how we go then
00:59:20 did you look at the second column uh it's which sets out the areas of effective control identified in the report and in the third column areas of risk if you look at the third column bottom row it says rating medium you see
00:59:34 bottom row it says rating medium you see that yes
00:59:35 that yes and then underneath that it says failure to effectively monitor the receipt of fsg training could result in staff receiving insufficient levels of this mandatory training this could
00:59:47 of this mandatory training this could result in a reputational damage in the event of a serious incident involving persons trapped being dealt with by staff
00:59:54 staff who had not received the required level of training uh and then underneath that rating medium
01:00:02 medium failure to ensure that training records are accurately maintained could result in training levels being inappropriately reported and or staff not receiving the required training potentially leading to an inappropriate response to an incident
01:00:15 an inappropriate response to an incident and that's what the finding was in early 15
01:00:18 15 um you may not have seen this at the time but
01:00:22 time but casting your mind back had you done would you have agreed with those identified risks
01:00:33 um
01:00:44 well failure to ensure that training records are actually maintained um
01:00:48 um yes i agree yes and uh
01:00:52 and uh you might like to comment on whether the result of failure to effectively monitor the receipt of fsg training could result in staff receiving insufficient levels of training
01:01:03 insufficient levels of training that's obviously correct isn't it that's obviously the risk for failure there is there is a risk to it but yes uh and although the auditor goes on to say this could result in reputational
01:01:14 say this could result in reputational damage in the event of a serious incident would you agree with me that in fact um the risk wasn't merely of to the reputation of the lfb uh but to the life and safety of people
01:01:36 i'm sorry could you repeat the question well yes this says that a failure uh to monitor the receipt of fsg training could result in staff receiving insufficient levels of this mandatory training
01:01:47 training so you should go back to the previous page where you can see it in print
01:01:54 then it goes on this could result in reputational damage in the event of a serious incident that that is what appears the mayor's office was concerned with but in fact would you agree that the result could be a lot worse than reputational damage to the brigade
01:02:07 reputational damage to the brigade death for example it could be a lot of chefs
01:02:10 chefs death for example
01:02:15 i i'm my view my view is the fact that the um
01:02:20 the um that all staff were trained in fsg they they weren't necessarily trained um mandate mandatory during that period but no staff were untrained in providing
01:02:31 but no staff were untrained in providing fsg at that time or at this time so so the the question about um
01:02:39 um consistently accurate monitoring training training recording i've already highlighted the fact that there are errors with it and we were trying to address those errors the fact is
01:02:50 the fact is um
01:02:51 um the systems wouldn't didn't support us that time
01:02:54 that time yes did anyone seek to discuss this finding or these two findings i've just read to you with you at the time to be honest i don't i don't recall i remember doing the doing it uh the
01:03:06 remember doing the doing it uh the actual um day with uh with karen mason i don't recall seeing this document after
01:03:14 after uh but that's not to say i didn't i just don't recall at the time do you recall seeing any report done by her because because of course we were already we already raised the issue about the um
01:03:27 we already raised the issue about the um uh the fact we're doing it by spreadsheet and we're manually moving that onto step every month to into the information management and it and they were working to try and get us a better system so that was already it's already
01:03:40 system so that was already it's already in place and i think it was highlighting the fact that that's still the case at this time yes but step of course was only the partial solution to this it was a partial solution yes so yes it was a participant and it's improved sinton i
01:03:51 participant and it's improved sinton i believe yes and was that the reason why fsg training was not being effectively monitored or at least one of them i think well yes definitely i think it was
01:04:01 was now the agreed action if you look at the uh uh right hand side of the document
01:04:10 document at the foot of page 25 was as follows responsibility senior operations manager an independent record of the provision of fire survival guidance training for all control staff will be maintained and
01:04:22 all control staff will be maintained and monitored to ensure that all staff are in receipt of this training at least annually
01:04:28 annually at least annually a monthly report will be produced by ost providing the annual fsg training update and we will be directing oms
01:04:39 and we will be directing oms to notify the training team if individuals are nearing their annual refresher so we can get them on a refresher course
01:04:50 did anybody bring that agreed action to your attention at this time um again i don't i don't recall you don't remember i don't remember
01:05:01 you don't remember i don't remember seeing it i don't remember seeing this document no but did it do you recall never mind the document do you recall anybody coming along and telling you uh that these agreed actions uh namely
01:05:13 uh that these agreed actions uh namely an independent record of provision to be maintained uh
01:05:18 uh for at least annual training and the monthly report to be produced by the ost did nobody ever tell you that that had been agreed with mopac i i don't honestly don't recall
01:05:29 i i don't honestly don't recall we have no record that you were and you can't recall it i i honestly don't recall
01:05:33 recall like i say i remember the the conversation with mopac and i remember that she spent a day at the control room i don't i don't recall seeing this document and i don't
01:05:44 recall seeing this document and i don't recall seeing those actions i don't believe is there any is there any good reason you can think of why you
01:05:53 why you shouldn't or wouldn't have seen this document or at least have been told of what had been agreed because normally these these documents would go to the line management they don't always filter down to
01:06:05 filter down to to departments well let's just test that a bit here we have the record of an agreed action including a monthly report to be produced by ost
01:06:16 produced by ost now that's something i have to ask you surely you would have known about because ost sat in your immediate line of command and like i say it's quite possible but i
01:06:27 like i say it's quite possible but i just don't recall that that particular responsibility or action now there's an updated version of this document in june 2015 uh at uh lfb triple zero five nine five
01:06:40 uh at uh lfb triple zero five nine five nine seven
01:06:44 we can go to that uh
01:06:47 uh which uh
01:06:49 which uh doesn't have much of an introduction on page one but it is an updated version uh if you go please to page two we can see
01:06:57 see on that page in the third column from the left
01:07:00 the left responsibility senior operations manager joanne stibbards and the same agreed action there is set out independent record of the provision of first survival guidance
01:07:11 of first survival guidance etc at least annually and the monthly report
01:07:15 report and then in the right-hand side column it says there's a date 30th of april 2015 and and then completed ost will maintain these records and notify oms when staff
01:07:28 these records and notify oms when staff are due annual refreshers as it would be easier for us to control than the watches
01:07:34 watches first do you know who assigned that task to som smith well as the as the som training um i pretend she would have done potentially but did you i i don't i
01:07:47 potentially but did you i i don't i don't i haven't seen this this before i'll say yes because it because she's my line manager but i don't remember seeing this
01:07:55 this right
01:08:04 i'm told that this document was last modified according to the file information records
01:08:10 records uh in june 2015 by you 2nd of june 2015 last modified by by you hayward sc that's what the file information for this document says
01:08:23 file information for this document says can we take it from that that this is something that you did see at that time well potentially yes if i if i was the last burn to authority then yes yes um what steps did you take at the time to make sure that an independent record
01:08:35 to make sure that an independent record of fsg training had in fact been created
01:08:40 i asked some steparts to go to ost and um and check check the record to make sure it was kept up to date and what steps did you take
01:08:51 did you take to ensure
01:08:52 to ensure uh that
01:08:54 uh that enough staff were receiving the training i'll just point out the the time that this was that this was done um
01:09:04 we weren't obviously doing fsg training at this time this was mid-2015 i was training vision across two sites uh all my training team were focused on vision
01:09:14 vision um
01:09:16 um and all other training as i've already stated in my statement uh was not completed the priority at that time was to deliver the vision um in august of that year
01:09:28 in august of that year so
01:09:29 so that was the there was a lot of pressure to deliver that um yes so so
01:09:35 yes so so whilst this whilst this uh um
01:09:39 uh um maintaining the record would have been set
01:09:42 set i doubt any other work would have gone on at that point because of course everything had focused onto division um what were the monthly ost reports which were providing or would provide
01:09:53 which were providing or would provide the annual fsg training update i i i i haven't i haven't seen them because
01:09:59 because as i said at this time the focus was purely on vision there was nothing else that the um that we done during that period like i say we were training seven days a week
01:10:11 say we were training seven days a week across two sites to get staff trained up to get vision live that that rather tells us that at the time this document was generated reviewed by
01:10:22 this document was generated reviewed by you
01:10:23 you um the subject of instruction to joanne stevards
01:10:27 stevards and
01:10:28 and the recording of that task as complete ost will maintain these records in fact there had been and was to be no fsg training in 2015 whatsoever but but at
01:10:42 training in 2015 whatsoever but but at that point at that point to that point she'd um she of course she spoke to rst so she said ost will maintain his records but obviously at that point
01:10:53 at that point um you know everything else everything else had
01:10:58 else had gone by the wayside as i've said in my statement because we were focusing on delivering the main function which is the mobilize system mobilizer system which delivers um
01:11:09 um appliances to instance that was a priority yes and given that that's as you say was the case um how could you or joe and steve barnes possibly have committed ost to providing a monthly report providing the annual fsg
01:11:22 monthly report providing the annual fsg training update
01:11:25 that can't have been a genuine uh proposal given the situation you said you were in with vision it was it was the aspiration to do that and that's what we wanted to do unfortunately at that time
01:11:38 do unfortunately at that time we couldn't did you tell mopac that this was merely an aspiration which at that time was impossible i'll be honest at that time the only thing i was focused on was was vision
01:11:54 as was the rest of control
01:11:58 now we saw ac brown's second statement earlier
01:12:02 earlier can i just go back to that with you um this is at nfb triple zero zero 0084020 page 13 and we did look at paragraph 28 of that can we go again there get again
01:12:14 of that can we go again there get again to that paragraph this is about your monthly management meetings with him and in that sentence at the last sentence of that paragraph he says at the meetings therefore i would require
01:12:26 the meetings therefore i would require scott to report back to me with up-to-date statistics on the delivery of those targets is that correct
01:12:37 your at your regular meetings with uh ac brown
01:12:41 brown uh he set you targets and wanted you to come back to him regularly with updates statistics
01:12:53 i i mean during our uh our meetings were very um he would ask questions and i would answer generally i don't i'm not sure i would bring a pack of statistics along
01:13:04 along with me
01:13:05 with me right
01:13:07 right did he ever tell you to bring
01:13:10 to bring some up-to-date statistics on the delivery of targets to him not that i recall
01:13:16 recall right uh
01:13:18 right uh after the mopac audit in february well november 2014 through to february stroke march 2015 and the product of that which we've seen
01:13:29 and the product of that which we've seen did ac bran ask you for any up-to-date statistics on the fsg training then being delivered not not i recall did you ever provide him with the independent record of fsg training not that i recall
01:13:40 record of fsg training not that i recall did you ever provide him with the as aspired to monthly ost reports providing the fsg training update not oracle in fact there's a prior question were the promised monthly ost reports providing
01:13:51 promised monthly ost reports providing the fsg training update ever generated i i i haven't i didn't see them now if we stick uh with this statement and go to paragraph 29 next paragraph
01:14:04 and go to paragraph 29 next paragraph ac brown says i was left with the impression that fsg training refresher training was where practically possible being delivered i gained that impression from
01:14:15 delivered i gained that impression from my discussions with scott but also my discussions with individual brigade cras when i visited them in their workplace now do you agree with what he says
01:14:26 with what he says that he had the impression rather that you left him with the impression that fsg refresher training was being delivered where practically possible
01:14:36 i would say no because obviously he also supports that was saying he spoke to cross to say that they were doing it i mean the the training that was going on at that time was command unit training which involved control
01:14:47 unit training which involved control officers um but obviously not the refresher training were there any occasions that you can recall now when you told ac brown that it was not practically possible
01:14:59 practically possible to deliver fsg training i i not specifically fsg but i did tell ac brown
01:15:06 ac brown that all trainee is now on vision and he he knew that we were um that we were training across the two sites to be able to deliver that training as i said there was a lot of
01:15:17 training as i said there was a lot of pressure
01:15:18 pressure above ac brown as well to get this to get this product delivered into london fire brigade at the time mr chairman we're mid-topic i'm afraid
01:15:29 mr chairman we're mid-topic i'm afraid but i'm not going to be able to finish the topic and come to a natural point in the next
01:15:33 the next 10 minutes probably right well we can have a break at this point before we do can you just help me with this mr did you ever tell mr brown
01:15:44 tell mr brown in frustration possibly or just as a matter of information that vision was completely swamping you um the introduction of vision yes he was uh ac brown was aware of the of the
01:15:56 uh ac brown was aware of the of the issues with vision because of course we were due to go live 2014 it was delayed um
01:16:01 um until uh early 2015 and then it moved again so he was as as frustrated as as controller about getting the system delivered he
01:16:12 about getting the system delivered he attended the meetings with capita who were the suppliers at the time along with a cams project which was a mobilizing project which brought it all together um about trying to get this product
01:16:23 about trying to get this product delivered so yes he would have been aware but i mean he the impression we get from his statement is that he despite your problems he thought you were still delivering sfg fsg training
01:16:36 were still delivering sfg fsg training and i'm just wondering whether you at any stage
01:16:40 any stage told him
01:16:42 told him that
01:16:43 that there's nothing you could do you couldn't do any training of any sort because you were completely taken up with the introducing vision i i didn't specifically say fsg training i said all training is now
01:16:57 fsg training i said all training is now vision is vision training there is nothing that there is nothing else at that time and of course at the same time we were um the we had the resource management team on uh in in the room as well which is
01:17:10 on uh in in the room as well which is obviously another training which had to go ahead because that was part of service delivery yeah all right thank you very much indeed okay sir you don't follow that up at least not at this moment no no thank you
01:17:22 moment no no thank you well we'll have a break now and mr taywood will come back please at 25 to 12
01:17:27 12 and uh as before please don't talk to anyone about you of course thank you all right thank you very much
01:17:44 thank you 25 thank you very much mr chairman yes
01:36:30 would you ask mr haywood to come back in please thank you
01:36:42 all right miss taylor thank you to keep going thank you very much yes mr miller mr chairman mr hayward um apropos of what we were looking at before the break can i ask you please to look at lfb
01:36:53 can i ask you please to look at lfb triple zero five one seven two two five one seven two two
01:37:02 now this is an email to you
01:37:05 to you from nicola o'shea copied to keith diamond and joanne stibbards on monday the 27th of april 2015. now to put it in its chronological
01:37:16 2015. now to put it in its chronological context this is between the march 2015 report we saw earlier and the audit appendix b and
01:37:24 and the june version of that document we saw just before the break and it says this hi scott please find attached the fsg workbook that i've created as per the mopac audit
01:37:37 created as per the mopac audit the book contains a month by month planner for both control staff and ceos this will allow you to see at a glance who was trained in what month as that month nears the following year you will know who needs to complete
01:37:48 you will know who needs to complete their refresher the date the actual training took place will be entered against the person's name in the relevant month all training for control staff can then be entered onto the training recording sheet ready to be uploaded to step cu
01:38:00 sheet ready to be uploaded to step cu training is not entered on our training recording sheet we email the people responsible for step and ask them to add it to the individual officers i've included a guidance sheet on the process for booking fsg workshops with the ceo
01:38:12 for booking fsg workshops with the ceo stroke control and completing the training record sheet when the next lot of fsg workshops are due these sheets can be copied and pasted into the same workbook and re-labeled to
01:38:23 into the same workbook and re-labeled to reflect that it is course number three and so on against this item in the in the mopak audit it states that oms are to notify ost when control staff are nearing the end
01:38:34 nearing the end and the end of their fsg training i believe it would be easier for ost to keep check on this and we could notify oms as to when people undue their annual refresher this would also mean the
01:38:46 refresher this would also mean the attached workbook stays with ost and no one else can access it can you let me know if you're happy with this if not i will arrange with vic to have it uploaded to an area where control have access can i take it that this action is
01:38:58 access can i take it that this action is now complete on the mopac audit now um the first question is
01:39:06 do you remember this email i i do not next question do you know whether the proposal here to create this workbook which had got this far and the rest of nikki o'shea's proposals were
01:39:19 nikki o'shea's proposals were carried into effect um
01:39:22 um well from the time the time stamp it was done i i believe that she did create it um but as i stated before before the break
01:39:31 break it was probably put on hold whilst we whilst we dealt with the vision
01:39:37 vision right uh now we've seen 30th of april 2015 in the column which said completed can we take it that what had been completed
01:39:50 that what had been completed was the creation of the workbook but no more than that that this email suggests that yes but thereafter the workbook was not pressed into service and filled in in the way in
01:40:03 into service and filled in in the way in which nicky uh contemplated that it would is that correct i i i don't know is the answer if
01:40:11 if if it's for fsg then then no it wouldn't have been because we didn't do fsg at that time although we did obviously uh no it's in 2015 we didn't do commodity training either at that point although new entrants would have had
01:40:23 although new entrants would have had training
01:40:24 training and they would be in the book was this suggestion or rather this piece of
01:40:29 of um
01:40:32 um this workshop planner for whatever better expression ever gone back to after the vision problems were over uh and pressed into service in 2016 or early 2017.
01:40:43 service in 2016 or early 2017. um
01:40:44 um not that i'm aware of right
01:40:50 now can i then go please uh to lfb triple zero eight four zero two zero this is ac brown's second witness statement page thirteen paragraph thirty
01:41:04 uh if you uh look at that he says this scott made me aware when there were occasions when fsg refresher training was not being delivered in accordance with the agreed time scales this occurred when there
01:41:16 time scales this occurred when there were competing priorities in brigade control for example in 2015 to 17 a considerable amount of time was invested in training brigade cros on the vision mobilizing system which meant there was
01:41:27 mobilizing system which meant there was an impact on the delivery of fsg refresher training during that period the vision mobilizing system was a risk critical project which was crucial that the brigade delivered on time and is referred to in paragraph 33 in paragraph
01:41:39 referred to in paragraph 33 in paragraph 34 of my first statement dated the 29th of january 2019. now is it right that you told ac brown about the occasions when fsg trade refresher training was not delivered in
01:41:51 refresher training was not delivered in accordance with agreed time scales as i as i said previously i believe i when i spoke to ac brown it was about the fact that all training would be all training would be stopped except for
01:42:03 all training would be stopped except for the vision training at this time i didn't specify fsg because obviously control do other training as well now he's given us an example the period 2015-2017 which he attributes to the
01:42:15 2015-2017 which he attributes to the um embedding of the vision mobilizing system but but before that period um did you okay did you inform him on any occasion that that refresher training
01:42:26 occasion that that refresher training for the control room uh was not being delivered in accordance with agreed time scales well the the the the time is is given an example of 2015 2017 but in actual fact training started
01:42:38 2017 but in actual fact training started on vision
01:42:39 on vision uh mid-2013 and enrolled on continuing till then so 2014 we invested in in training up to ready for all to thought was 15 go live
01:42:50 ready for all to thought was 15 go live and actually went live in 15 and then obviously the problem subsequent to that meant that we couldn't do anything else but vision at that time now
01:42:59 now we've seen from the table that you've set out of paragraph 74 of your first witness statement that there was zero percent uh training given to existing staff in 2015.
01:43:12 given to existing staff in 2015. presumably come june 2015 halfway through that yeah you you knew actually knew that none of the control room staff had received any refresher training to that
01:43:23 received any refresher training to that date refresher china yes refreshing training yes i'm talking about refresher yes
01:43:28 yes uh
01:43:29 uh did you expect there to be some refresher training in the second half of that year
01:43:36 that year of 2015 yes no because the vision went live or vision was due to go live in august yes so but it didn't actually go live until november
01:43:48 until november so 2015
01:43:50 so 2015 uh that there would have been no training
01:43:52 training until vision was live and we saw how that system performed we couldn't we couldn't plan the expectation of course was to train every year but as i've stated
01:44:03 every year but as i've stated um
01:44:04 um you know we we couldn't we had to focus on on the vision system right
01:44:09 right did there come a time in during the course of 2015 when you thought it right to alert
01:44:15 to alert uh
01:44:16 uh ac brown to the fact that there was or there had been and would be no uh refresher training given to any control room staff during that calendar year in in
01:44:29 that calendar year in in ac brown was was was aware of the i mean as i explained he was aware that no training would take place uh and i i i can't really say any more than that
01:44:40 i can't really say any more than that yes you see looking at what ac brown says in paragraph 30 uh where where he says there were occasions when fsg refresher training was not being delivered in accordance
01:44:51 was not being delivered in accordance with the agreed time scales and gives the example of the period uh when
01:44:57 when a considerable amount of time is being invested in training on vision in fact you're saying are you that there was one of those years 2015 when there was no training whatever no effort no refresher
01:45:09 training whatever no effort no refresher training no refresher training that's correct
01:45:13 correct um
01:45:13 um if we go back to your first statement at paragraph 74 please page 26
01:45:23 you can see that for 2016 only 46 percent of staff were trained and in 27
01:45:34 and in 27 2017
01:45:36 2017 only 32 percent and if you go to paragraph 78.4 of your statement which you'll find on page
01:45:49 which you'll find on page page 29
01:45:53 you say there in 2017 up to the date of the grenfell tower fire no refresher fsg training had taken place although seven new entrants would have received the full fsg
01:46:05 would have received the full fsg training as part of the new entrance course
01:46:07 course courses run that year one of those entrants was on duty on the night of the fire
01:46:13 fire now
01:46:16 you say no refresher training had taken place
01:46:20 place it did that includes i assume is this right the six months january to june 2017.
01:46:26 2017. uh yes
01:46:30 so the 32 percent that you've recorded in your uh table for 2017 happened after 14th uh
01:46:40 uh it would follow wouldn't it for a refresher train yeah but that's all for fsg training so that that would include command unit training if commodity chain but i don't recall whatever commodity chain training took
01:46:51 whatever commodity chain training took place in that year so that's all fsg training not necessarily just refresher oh i follow so when we get back to paragraph 74
01:47:02 on page 26 that's fsg training whether new entrant or refresher
01:47:07 refresher yes so so if they've done if they've trained on ifsg it'd be in there right
01:47:14 does that mean that in 2015 even the new entrants received no fsg training they would have received fsg training i see so they're they're not included in that statistic
01:47:25 they're not included in that statistic new entrance but are included in the others yes right
01:47:31 is there any other year for which one is not comparing light with like i no i i don't think so i mean i think i've just been explicit in 2015 because of the the issues that we had right so
01:47:43 of the the issues that we had right so uh for 2016 you've got 46 percent in 2017 that's the entire calendar year only 32 percent can you account for why the figures in 2017 are at 32 percent
01:47:55 2017 are at 32 percent that's that's just under a third only yes so so obviously we were we were coming out of the back end of getting some stability of vision
01:48:07 some stability of vision and training were
01:48:10 looking to re restart the training packages including five survival guidance it just took a bit of time to get us back up and running again well that doesn't really configure with
01:48:22 well that doesn't really configure with the figures does it because uh you had nothing in 2015 you're at 46 in 2016 but why does it fall quite substantially between 2016 and 2017. i i don't i don't recall
01:48:35 i i don't i don't recall what was going wrong well perhaps it wasn't being recorded at the time i i i can't i can't answer because i don't i don't know so even by 2017 are you saying that the system for
01:48:46 2017 are you saying that the system for recording fsg training where the new entrant or refresher was still so defective that you can't rely and can't explain the fall from 46 in 2016 to 32 in 2017. i believe that the uh that step
01:48:59 in 2017. i believe that the uh that step was slightly improved um around 2015 and it recognized one half of a short shift but it wasn't it wasn't a a position
01:49:11 a a position where we could run it fully now let's go to your first statement at paragraph 80 please on page 30 four pages on from where we are you say this between 2012 and 2017 we've provided
01:49:23 between 2012 and 2017 we've provided training for control stuff on the ncc vision the rmc and the sbm and
01:49:31 and just to be clear here the rmc is resources management center resource management center yes sir and sbm is standby standby module yes control staff were also detached to carry out the
01:49:42 were also detached to carry out the functions of the ncc rmc and sbm the sbm in particular needed a minimum permanent contingent of four staff to operate and maintain skills across all controlled staff some of which were provided by
01:49:54 staff some of which were provided by control
01:49:55 control responding to one of these changes at any one time would have been challenging but in late 2015 to 16 in particular these changes together with the significant difficulties presented by the implementation of vision meant that
01:50:07 the implementation of vision meant that a number of these work streams all came together at the same time the training requirements new functions and new system drew all of our spare capacity between 2014 and 17. this meant that
01:50:18 between 2014 and 17. this meant that there was reduced capacity available for other important training in particular fsg refresher training now is those last few words i just want to examine with you other important training in particular
01:50:31 other important training in particular fsg refresher training was fsg refresher training not critical training of the highest priority not least in view of what had happened
01:50:42 not least in view of what had happened at la canal and the risks which had been identified not only in the control report itself in november 2012 but the mopac audit in february 2015. uh yes it is it what was uh critical but
01:50:55 uh yes it is it what was uh critical but then so was mtfa training because of obviously we'd had some terrorist incidents in london during that time as well so all the training for control staff is is critical in that in that
01:51:06 staff is is critical in that in that respect
01:51:10 and although i can quite understand that it's difficult to
01:51:14 to create any kind of pecking order why
01:51:18 why was fsg refresher training not more important than training on rmc for example
01:51:25 example uh resource resource management um and obviously hand in hand that hand in hand with that is a standby module in order to get
01:51:33 to get appliances available at fire stations the standby module needs to be um
01:51:39 um worked to put the right amount of people and skills onto those appliances so that we can mobilize to instance around london so that is a critical uh training that needs to be carried out
01:51:51 uh training that needs to be carried out right
01:51:52 right can i just understand this then that the that ncc vision rmc and sbm are all about mobilization are they all utilization yeah the ncc is
01:52:03 are they all utilization yeah the ncc is not as critical but certainly resource management on the standby module is as is our obviously vision did anybody to your knowledge ever sit
01:52:14 did anybody to your knowledge ever sit down and risk assess the
01:52:18 pecking order which meant that there was reduced capacity available for fsg refresher training not that i'm aware of no who was responsible for deciding to
01:52:30 who was responsible for deciding to allow these other work streams to dominate at the expense of fsg refresher training um i'm i'm not sure it was a it's a
01:52:38 it's a um
01:52:39 um the decision was it was the it was the fact that we needed to deliver those critical services to enable us to do our day-to-day job so the fact that we the fact that we
01:52:51 so the fact that we the fact that we went live with vision was a brigade decision
01:52:55 decision yes
01:52:56 yes i mean after the mopac audit had delivered its recommendations and the responses that we saw to that earlier this morning why after that point did nobody as it seems in the
01:53:08 that point did nobody as it seems in the brigade
01:53:09 brigade say to themselves well we need to create capacity for fsg refresher training because it is just as important as these other elements vision
01:53:21 important as these other elements vision rmc sbm
01:53:23 rmc sbm i think i think had had we'd
01:53:28 had we'd gone live with vision as planned in early 2014 and then picked up the rmc sbm function and train on that then we we
01:53:40 function and train on that then we we would have had space um and and the capacity to deliver other training as it was due to the delays uh and the impacts of of the vision it all
01:53:51 and the impacts of of the vision it all concertinated so it all happened at once and because the the likes of vision and as we discussed and by module are critical for day-to-day mobilizing they
01:54:02 critical for day-to-day mobilizing they took priority over everything else and that was a direction from my ac at the time that a minimum of two star or minimum of four staff are to run the sbm between 0.700 and 2300 and
01:54:15 the sbm between 0.700 and 2300 and obviously from brigade perspective we need to go live with vision so there was clear direction to me to enable that to happen
01:54:23 happen now after
01:54:25 now after in and after 2015 uh could you just remind me what was the total number of cros is it 64
01:54:35 is it 64 watches of 16. um four abstractions
01:54:42 you've asked me can you put it up on the board so i could see it please i can't i don't have a figure for you it's a bit of mental mathematics um but what was the total number per watch let's try it that way uh so 16 per watt one om four
01:54:55 that way uh so 16 per watt one om four iom so 11 cros yes 11 66 66 so 66
01:55:03 so 66 uh
01:55:05 uh so those are the numbers we're dealing with
01:55:07 with what was problematic about finding only one day a year
01:55:14 for the cross just taking them alone to receive the training um
01:55:21 um it sounds it sounds a reasonable a reasonable request but i don't that the magnitude of of what was being during that period and the impacts of that i mean the staff worked incredibly hard to
01:55:34 mean the staff worked incredibly hard to deliver vision we didn't have all the staff um
01:55:38 staff um our establishment at that time so there was a lot of overtime being done there was a lot of pressure on staff it was it was in the news about the the stress it was having on staff to deliver
01:55:50 stress it was having on staff to deliver this system so i i don't i don't think it i think the focus was on was on delivering these systems uh giving as much training to staff as we could before go live
01:56:02 we could before go live and and trying to trying to maintain the staffing we had because it was difficult and hence you know we had a um accounts come in at one point you know
01:56:14 accounts come in at one point you know to try to lay some of the staff's fears about vision so there was a there was a lot going on at that time and a lot of i mean it wasn't just at our level the staff themselves they were working
01:56:25 staff themselves they were working really hard to get to get this system in and it was affecting them as well so so it whilst it might sound like only one day it was it was quite a a tense period that period did you ever
01:56:37 a tense period that period did you ever take these capacity issues the absence of spare capacity to deliver this critical training to ac brown or ac george yes say to them we need some more resource if we are
01:56:48 we need some more resource if we are going to deliver this critical training to everybody annually yeah so when i see ac
01:56:53 ac george joined he he was part of the um engagement review of root and branch review and then of course he joined he joined uh brigade at when when vision was implemented and and
01:57:06 when when vision was implemented and and he was more than aware of the of the issues that were done that time and i discussed it with him then and i talked again about you know should we be looking at outsourcing training to allow us to tell
01:57:17 us to tell you know babcock what we want and then you know we can audit it that way um as i said a meeting was held with with the training manager it was to do with contracts and uh and
01:57:29 with contracts and uh and and
01:57:29 and various issues and it at that point it wasn't taken forward well we'll come and see uh ac george's root and branch review in just a moment
01:57:40 root and branch review in just a moment before i ask you about that it's right isn't it that from september 2013 to march 2016 2013 to 2016 you attended a number of meetings of the odcb the
01:57:53 number of meetings of the odcb the operational directorate's coordination board i attended i attended a couple yeah yes in fact i think we have four okay attended in total did you ever consider raising the resource or
01:58:04 consider raising the resource or capacity problems affecting the completion of fsg refresher training at any of those meetings uh no was that
01:58:17 i don't know at the time they're not pressing enough in your mind yes of course they're called so oppressing i just don't i i record the odcb but it was very much an operationally focused
01:58:28 operationally focused um
01:58:29 um event
01:58:31 event and i don't remember having too much to say or being asked to comment there were some control updates i believe um or one or two occasions
01:58:44 now let's look at the george review um this is at lfb 3032824
01:58:57 this is the version that he produced in february 2017 and presented to the cmb the corporate management board we looked i think earlier at the july
01:59:09 we looked i think earlier at the july 2016 version looking at this updated version you can see it on the screen do you remember reading this yes you did can we go to page six please
01:59:25 and here on page six uh we have a section entitled progress post review paragraph 22. a number of key improvements have already been made you
01:59:36 improvements have already been made you see that yes and at the third bullet point
01:59:41 it says additional familiarization training to all staff on ncc and for survival guidance now just looking at that do you agree that this script gives the impression
01:59:52 that this script gives the impression that all staff had received some additional training on fsg after the first report in july 2016.
02:00:00 2016. it does
02:00:02 it does now as we looked at earlier the table in your first statement of paragraph 74 showed that only 46 of staff had received some fsg training in 2016 and 32 in 2017
02:00:14 in 2016 and 32 in 2017 and even allowing for errors um you in fact told us that no refresher training took place in the first half of 2017. that that's where we are on your figures yes unless it was cu training which i i
02:00:26 yes unless it was cu training which i i can't i don't know what the dates were but yes all right but can you help me with where the information presented to the corporate management board in this bullet point comes from that additional uh
02:00:37 uh uh
02:00:39 uh familiarization training to all staff on first survival guidance comes from when was this was this um done february saturday the 15th of february 2017.
02:00:51 um he would have asked me for an update i suspect and i would have got it from ost
02:00:58 do you accept that if your figures are correct then this was an inaccurate statement
02:01:05 statement um for fire survivor guidance potentially yes yes can you account for how he made that statement
02:01:14 uh no if we go up to page uh three please paragraph eight there's a heading development and training and it says this one reason for a lack
02:01:26 and it says this one reason for a lack of regular maintenance of skills training has been the difficulty in getting the watch together away from the control room to undertake team-based training sessions when the short shift changed in 2011 it was proposed that
02:01:37 changed in 2011 it was proposed that such training would be carried out on the short shift however this has rarely been achieved for a number of reasons including staff vacancies above target sickness levels and the inflexibility of
02:01:48 sickness levels and the inflexibility of breaks
02:01:49 breaks a number of things need to change to allow suitable sufficient and regular training and development to take place including and then there's a number of bullet points um the first
02:02:00 um the first first one is ensuring that any overall staffing structure change and change to the system of breaks allows and encourages staff training to take place now just pausing there
02:02:14 did you agree with that finding at the time i did agree with that finding at the time particularly around the system of brakes but
02:02:24 but when i proposed the system of brakes the unions kicked up and we didn't take any further or ac george didn't take any further rich unions
02:02:36 rich unions uh gmb in unison gmb who else unison and the fbu so the three control staff recognize unions right
02:02:47 staff recognize unions right so the fbu also you see yeah they i think they joined they joined and were recognized around 2016 i believe 2015. they joined you mean control room staff joined the fbu yes and they were
02:02:58 joined the fbu yes and they were recognized by by the brigade as being control representatives as well right
02:03:08 do you agree that
02:03:10 that little a there echoes the problem that was identified in the 1998 fire service manual we looked at on the first day of your evidence
02:03:21 first day of your evidence namely that because of the hindrance of numbers of staff available and the need to maintain cover in the control room
02:03:29 room training should take place away from the away from control
02:03:35 there are echoes of that in there yes there are
02:03:38 there are did you give any consideration to implementing training away from control to ensure that it was done at this point particularly for fsg yeah there was the
02:03:51 yeah there was the yes
02:03:52 yes there are there is the cost implications of and doing that and maintaining the service so if you if you release staff um
02:04:03 release staff um away from the away for you know a week's course for example the implications of that is probably nine days away from the control room so
02:04:12 so so it's it's not it's not quite as simple to do but yes it was it was discussed
02:04:17 discussed right what was what what was proposed by way of changes to overall staffing structure and change to the system of breaks that might encourage staff training to take place
02:04:30 uh at this at this stage nothing because they were just talking about development of
02:04:35 of i don't know what's changed since this time
02:04:38 time but nothing in the time that i was there until i left
02:04:43 and do you know why that was i i think i think they'll they would they will work they were working on it i mean the thing is with the um the training is the fact that we were um working with learning development to
02:04:55 um working with learning development to provide epdrs for staff to make training more relevant and to ensure that the the books
02:05:01 books that they got made sure that they did the training and was because it was electronic would have been
02:05:07 been like they do with operational staff it highlights the fact that you need training to get allocated to that course i think that's where we were at that point
02:05:14 point i mean when you saw this piece or part of this updated review in in february 2017 uh were you not struck by the fact that
02:05:25 uh were you not struck by the fact that here you were some eight years after the latino house fire and some four years after the coroner's recommendations give or take a month
02:05:36 recommendations give or take a month and ask yourself how could it be that we are still in a position where there is a lack of regular maintenance of skills training in relation to the control room
02:05:50 because in that four year period as i've previewed explained there was a significant amount of other training going on to enable us to deliver
02:06:00 deliver the critical day-to-day systems of vision and the standby module at that time now looking at b b on this page says using babcock to provide easily accessible cbt
02:06:11 provide easily accessible cbt computer-based training packages within big learning did you understand why that recommendation had been made yes because we were still trying to get the cbt packages to be updated and work
02:06:23 the cbt packages to be updated and work through the big learning system so big learning is the is the um the website that we go to to get our e-learning training and and to date we were still waiting it
02:06:35 and and to date we were still waiting it was the it was discussions between lfb and and babcock about having having that training available and to be able to update
02:06:46 right were you party to those discussions i did attend a couple of those discussions yes what was the problem in a nutshell um big learning did wasn't the actual product itself wasn't it was it was it wasn't user
02:06:58 wasn't it was it was it wasn't user friendly
02:06:59 friendly the contractual issues around access update to um
02:07:06 to um the products uh was it was an issue it was being ironed out but it was taking a hell of a long time right now we know that the biennial plan once every two-year plan for fsg
02:07:18 once every two-year plan for fsg refresher training established as we've seen in 2010 was to deliver cbt every other year can we take it from this recommendation on the screen in front of you
02:07:29 on the screen in front of you that those cbt packages had not been accessible at all until at least this this moment yeah i think i think they were available on big learning but they were out of date and needed updating and that was
02:07:41 date and needed updating and that was the that was the big issue and and i know that the ost were working with a member of staff in in um information management um to try and get this address and it was taking a
02:07:53 and get this address and it was taking a long time
02:07:54 long time right
02:07:55 right you say out of date what was missing that should have been i i don't i don't know exactly what was missing but i don't when it was first put together you know in 2011 i believe i think there was a amendments to be made for 2012
02:08:09 a amendments to be made for 2012 but i can't be specific on what what that was well let's let's look at that in a little bit more detail then um and i'd like specifically to look at the cbt packages that were created as part of the refresher training on fsg
02:08:21 part of the refresher training on fsg can we go to your second witness statement please at page 12.
02:08:29 and you say here at paragraph 61 in answer to the question please set out who was responsible for formulating the cpt package whether such a package was created and if so please exhibit a copy of the training if it was not created
02:08:41 of the training if it was not created please explain why and you say uh and we've seen this i think before i understand that christine sharp developed and created the cpt package with control in 2011
02:08:52 with control in 2011 which was sent to lfb training in 2012 training was outsourced to babcock who acquired the rights to the package after outsourcing control personnel could only access the cbt packages in a read-only
02:09:03 access the cbt packages in a read-only format meaning that we were unable to update the materials please refer to the cbt packages at exhibit 26 and 11 or 211 obtained from the lfb when these packages were developed was
02:09:14 when these packages were developed was it the intention that they would replace the powerpoint presentations that had been used as a temporary stopgap measure i think in 2011
02:09:22 2011 so yes yes did you do anything to try to overcome the fact that the cbt packages were in read-only format after babcock became involved in april 2012 yes
02:09:33 became involved in april 2012 yes what did you do as i said we we were speaking to information management in um in the headquarters who was liaising with the babcock contracts about getting it released we can update it but there were
02:09:46 released we can update it but there were i don't contractual issues um system issues
02:09:49 issues and
02:09:50 and um it never transpired that we got access until later on right now those efforts that you've just described if they start in april or shortly after april 2012 once babcock became involved i it must have been around that time i'm
02:10:02 i it must have been around that time i'm not quite sure and they persisted right through until as we've seen at least february 2017. i certainly know that christine sharp before she left um was certainly was certainly on it all the
02:10:13 certainly was certainly on it all the time but to know you never reached a final no and even and as part of the conversations with ac george and learning development one of the one of the aspects of of not
02:10:26 the one of the aspects of of not outsourcing was the fact that they'll get these these um packages released to us which we've been asking for for you know since 2012.
02:10:37 you know since 2012. so
02:10:37 so when you say one of the aspects of not outsourcing yeah so so when i when i i asked again ac george to if we could outsource training to give us a a um
02:10:48 training to give us a a um the same provision as operational staff um and you know due to contracts and costs and things they and and i talked i mentioned about the cbt packages and
02:10:59 mentioned about the cbt packages and they said that they were getting released for us that was learning development the training manager right i'm getting the sense from your evidence tell me if this is unfair that you couldn't outsource because of babcock
02:11:10 couldn't outsource because of babcock and part of the problem was with babcock on the cbt package no so so
02:11:15 no so so originally in 2012 when when um fb were going to outsource training they put the contract together but emitted control
02:11:24 control so at that point i asked that control be included it wasn't included so at that point we lost we lost the access to
02:11:34 access to the cbt packages which once come under learning development with lfb yeah at that point we hadn't had to read any format
02:11:41 format and you know that never got resolved i i don't know whether it's been dealt with now i just i would like to think it it has been but i i don't know but in your time to your knowledge it wasn't it wasn't resolved no now can we go back to
02:11:54 wasn't resolved no now can we go back to your first witness statement please at page 29.
02:11:58 we've seen this already but just want to remind you of what you say there a paragraph 78
02:12:05 and seventy eight three seventy eight three in particular uh you um
02:12:12 uh you um uh
02:12:13 uh in summary say that these cbt packages were not available in 2016 and then you explained there what was available in 2016. um
02:12:22 um if you go back to 78.2 i think we need to see that as well
02:12:30 what you say
02:12:33 there
02:12:36 is that uh
02:12:41 in 2015 and 2016 again while the training envisaged by the board was not undertaken the training spreadsheet indicates the 46 staff assisted with command unit fsg training in relation to policy note 90.
02:12:54 training in relation to policy note 90. let me give a little bit more detail about that and then um you talk you talk about the command unit training and then if we go to the top of page 29
02:13:10 you refer to what's happened in 20 what happens in 2016 um
02:13:17 um is it right i think that um
02:13:22 cbt as we've seen wasn't available in 2011.
02:13:25 2011. did you take any steps in 2013 uh
02:13:29 uh and 15 which were the cbt years to find out if the cbt packages were available to deliver be delivered as part of the training yes it was an it was an ongoing it was an ongoing
02:13:40 was an ongoing it was an ongoing issue with with the cbt as i as i've said and and up to the point that um that christine sharp who was the who was the liaison at that point because she created the packaging in the first place
02:13:52 created the packaging in the first place um persevered to try and get those sorted out so you know it didn't actually stop from from 2012 she continued to try and get access to those cbts right now looking
02:14:03 access to those cbts right now looking at paragraph 78.3 specifically you refer to 2016
02:14:07 to 2016 and what you take from the training spreadsheet records and if you look at the third
02:14:14 the third fourth
02:14:15 fourth fifth and sixth bullet points down
02:14:19 you say that the brigade controls fsg procedures and practices cbt package was available on the big learning platform as was fsg fire survival and
02:14:30 platform as was fsg fire survival and fire survival training and fire behavior they were you say available on big learning but i is it right that in fact what was available on big learning with the original unchanged presentation read
02:14:41 the original unchanged presentation read any formats yes i believe so right the read-only format so they were not interactive in the sense that you there was no interactive training no role play and also um they couldn't be updated that's my understanding yes i
02:14:53 updated that's my understanding yes i see
02:14:55 now if we um look at subparagraph one uh you
02:15:03 uh you refer
02:15:05 refer to
02:15:06 to uh in that third bullet point to the fsg procedures and practices presentation that is lfb triple zero eight six two zero three can we look at that
02:15:23 um that's the first page of the slide if we go to page five in that it refers to a senior officer's package you see that awareness of brigade controls fsg procedures and practices
02:15:34 controls fsg procedures and practices senior officers or senior officer package
02:15:38 package and then on page six it says this
02:15:42 this e-learning module provides guidance for station managers and above it accompanies the watch training package which is focused on operational staff at watch manager level and below you're also able to access this module through
02:15:54 also able to access this module through big learning do you agree that this was not a package of training designed for control room staff that's self-evident yes yeah do you know whether any control room staff were accessing this according to the records you found not
02:16:06 according to the records you found not that i'm aware of were they even told to access it no no now in in sm smith's witness statement um
02:16:14 um i'll just show you this this is an lfb double zero one two one two one nine page twenty four paragraph sixty two she says
02:16:27 uh this uh there were also issues with accessing cbt packages via big learning and then she goes on to say in the third line i was consistently chasing babcock
02:16:39 line i was consistently chasing babcock in order to get access for the control room to these packages but due to the limitations of the lfb contract this took a considerable amount of time and there were problems with the control staff accessing big learning on
02:16:51 control staff accessing big learning on their pcs which control managers also attempted to resolve um did you did she raise those issues with you yeah it was a it was it was general knowledge it would be you know
02:17:03 general knowledge it would be you know between me uh the senior managers and ost about to see about cbt and obviously to ac george as well now she's talking here about access to the packages
02:17:15 the packages do you know why there were issues getting access to the cbt packages system problems i know big learning had a had a problem at one point but i don't know exactly at that time what they were
02:17:26 know exactly at that time what they were what they were so so this isn't simply an ability to reconfigure them or update them this is actually a problem getting cras to get onto this yeah and i
02:17:37 getting cras to get onto this yeah and i i think that was the big i know part of the part of the year or part of the time and it wasn't just control staff i think it was brigade wide the big learning
02:17:48 it was brigade wide the big learning platform
02:17:49 platform wasn't working properly when was that do you remember i don't remember exactly i remember a email from information management and i can't i can't recall the uh the guy's name but
02:18:01 can't recall the uh the guy's name but but he was saying that there there is a brigade-wide problem right do you remember whether it was 2015 during the vision problems as it were or whether it was before or after that i i really i
02:18:12 was before or after that i i really i really don't know so i'm i can't remember but i i was i knew it was a it was there though was access ever gained during your time um i believe access well i think they did after my meeting
02:18:24 well i think they did after my meeting with uh mr george and learned development um
02:18:30 um i believe we did get some we did get access after that but i don't know any more than that right let me see if i can understand your evidence slightly better could you get your third witness statement please page nine
02:18:43 statement please page nine and let's look together at paragraph 32 you say there um
02:18:48 um under in answer to the question query 7b please clarify whether any of these cbt packages were in fact delivered to control room staff in any year from 2013 to 2017
02:19:01 year from 2013 to 2017 and you say i'm unable to confirm whether these cbt packages were delivered to cras in any uh from 2013 to 2017
02:19:10 2017 and then you talk about records at the time that you were pom do you recall cros ever having any access to any cbt packages at any time well i
02:19:21 any cbt packages at any time well i think i think there they could get access to some of the some of the cbt packages not necessarily control specific ones but i think they could access we could get on big learning um
02:19:33 access we could get on big learning um so so yes i think they could um but obviously these were these were read only so that we couldn't update them that was the that was the issue with them
02:19:44 the that was the issue with them well you
02:19:45 well you let's just be clearer about this um there's access and then there's an ability to update here you're what you're being asked about
02:19:52 about is access
02:19:54 is access delivered to uh which means access in effect isn't it well access to big learning and and yeah access and okay yes so when you say
02:20:05 yeah access and okay yes so when you say i'm unable to confirm whether these cpd cpt packages were delivered to crows in any year from 2013 to
02:20:14 to 2017. um are you saying that you recall no occasion when cross had
02:20:22 had access to cbt packages i i i don't i don't recall it's a short answer uh you don't recall one way or the other or you don't remember any occasions when that when
02:20:33 remember any occasions when that when they did i i've i've been able to access them before when i checked on when they'd done a check on big learning i was able to access them
02:20:43 right did you have conversations with some smith at any time during these four years and ask her whether her control room staff were able to at least
02:20:55 control room staff were able to at least get on to big learning to get at the cbt training yeah and sometimes some some staff could get on big learning other staff couldn't and this was the problem with a platform at the time
02:21:06 with a platform at the time um
02:21:07 um but the cbt the cbt packages were available i believe at the time
02:21:15 but i can't give any more any more than than that really right i mean given that cbt was the single method by which training was to be delivered and every other year from 2011 so 11 13 15 17.
02:21:29 from 2011 so 11 13 15 17. um
02:21:31 not keeping tabs on whether it was being accessed by all of your cras um was a problem wasn't it
02:21:45 i don't understand the question could you right well let me try slightly differently um
02:21:51 if your cros could not routinely access the training package which was to be delivered to them by cbt in every other year that was a major failing on your part
02:22:03 failing on your part well it's not my part i think it's a brigade part because i i can't i can't fix it systems but but yeah but i mean alternatively um if the cbt packages weren't well
02:22:15 um if the cbt packages weren't well available they do you know they aren't there is a lift of the original powerpoint presentation so as an alternative something else could be used if that was required
02:22:26 if that was required well you resist my suggestion that it was on your part you know we know where you stood you sat in the
02:22:31 in the hierarchy the lineman of line management did you ever go to ac brown or or ac chandler where relevant and say look
02:22:40 look my crows my cras can't get on routinely to this package they can't even access it let alone have any input into it um can you sort
02:22:51 have any input into it um can you sort it out because otherwise they're not going to get their training in the odd years
02:22:55 years well i certainly remember saying to ac george
02:22:58 george i you know whether i said it to ac china as well it's quite possible it was a long time ago i don't i don't remember but i i i have said that you know since the time when we were creating those cbt
02:23:09 the time when we were creating those cbt packages it was an issue and it wasn't an issue of of getting the access it was it was system it was system availability it was contractual
02:23:21 contractual and we were liaising with those those departments to be able to to try and get access it just took that long to get there and if it wasn't contractual it was system it was the
02:23:32 contractual it was system it was the platform itself so it wasn't for want of trying it was just we couldn't get there now we've got ac brown and ac george coming to give evidence to this inquiry
02:23:43 coming to give evidence to this inquiry in the very near future can we proceed on the basis with both of those officers that you brought to their attention in every year from 2013 through to 2017
02:23:56 in every year from 2013 through to 2017 the fact that your control room of officers could not routinely regularly and reliably access the cbt packages on big learning
02:24:08 packages on big learning and with that meant that their refresher training in the odd years uh was uh was was not available or not routinely available like i can't guarantee that i said it
02:24:19 like i can't guarantee that i said it every year to them i can guarantee that i said it to ac george when we've done that review right that was in 2016 and 2016 17. not before that
02:24:30 was in 2016 and 2016 17. not before that no i can't confirm or not whether i did or not right let's then turn to a completely different topic which is supervisors pre-inquest action 17 can we go to the assurance report from
02:24:42 can we go to the assurance report from 2018 and this is lfb404801
02:24:48 [Music] and if we go to page 16 in that document you can see left hand side at the bottom of the screen
02:25:04 page 16.
02:25:16 right uh now i think we need to scroll to the top of the page please thank you there's action 17 and that is as follows develop and deliver an
02:25:28 as follows develop and deliver an enhanced fire survival guidance training package for control supervisors in order to ensure that control supervisors are trained to support a control room officer when they are handling a fire survival guidance call to a standard
02:25:39 survival guidance call to a standard commensurate with the national guidance and then if you look down the columns you'll if you go down the screen please we can scroll down to the bottom of the
02:25:50 we can scroll down to the bottom of the page it says two paragraphs there an additional training presentation was developed for control supervisors which concentrates on providing support to the control room officers as they take the survival
02:26:02 survival fire survival guidance call and on passing information to the incident ground familiarization was also provided in relation to the reference information file fire survival guidance for control
02:26:13 file fire survival guidance for control supervisors c-section one action nine this learning was supplemented for a number of control staff with a fire survival guidance role play a number of
02:26:24 survival guidance role play a number of far survival guidance scenarios were developed with the purpose of embedding learning and allowing control staff to practically explore this learning in a realistic situation control supervisors
02:26:35 realistic situation control supervisors played the role of the supervisor or the caller in these role play scenarios and uh if we look at lfb triple zero eight six two two two
02:26:48 this is your exhibit sh 2 18.
02:26:53 this is a document or sl presentation entitled supervisor fire survival guidance ost training is that the training package that was created for training supervisors
02:27:05 created for training supervisors referred to in the lack of assurance report i've just read to you i believe it is
02:27:11 it is and are you able to tell us who developed that training uh
02:27:14 uh ost do you know when it was developed uh
02:27:19 uh no
02:27:20 no the um the file name that we have for this says june 2011 would that be about right to the best if it was a part it was part of the um
02:27:31 if it was a part it was part of the um analysis i believe so yes that that would make that would make sense right are you able to say whether that training was provided in 2011 i can't i can't confirm
02:27:43 i can't i can't confirm once the role play as we saw yesterday became passive uh for um
02:27:50 uh for um the trainer-led days in the even years um
02:27:55 um is it right that controls supervisors couldn't play the role of supervisor when a control room operator received an fsg call
02:28:07 yes i suppose that's the cut that's the case but
02:28:10 case but i don't know how they did the the role play for the supervisor training so they could have they could have um they could have done a recording or they could have gone through a scenario
02:28:22 could have gone through a scenario um and then the supervisor could talk about what they would do based on the supervisor riff right
02:28:30 right does it follow that the supervisors did not receive practical active training on what to do when supervising an fsg call that they would follow the riff
02:28:41 call that they would follow the riff they would follow the supervisor yes yes that that that was a standing script there wasn't it yeah she said she had a series of prompts on the database that she would call up
02:28:52 on the database that she would call up my question is a slightly different one is it right that from at least 2011
02:28:58 2011 and
02:28:58 and and thereafter supervisors did not receive practical active training on on what to do when supervising an fsg call
02:29:09 supervising an fsg call put another way they weren't trained on use of the supervisor riff or anything else
02:29:14 else no not not i'm aware of were you ever asked to review or sign off this
02:29:20 off this presentation uh no i would have seen it you would have seen it yes did you ever witness a training session for supervisors on fsg uh in any form but possibly but i don't
02:29:32 uh in any form but possibly but i don't recall
02:29:35 so you would have seen it uh let's look at page five please
02:29:43 uh that is under the heading pass information and it says inform the incident commander the first survival call is in progress pass all information to the incident commander including flat
02:29:55 incident commander including flat numbers floor number house number and if available the caller's name make sure that this information is included in all subsequent messages and if we go to page nine we see
02:30:06 we see uh further details on passing information um ensure that the ensure that information is passed immediately to the incident including number of flat stroke house name of caller a number of persons
02:30:17 house name of caller a number of persons involved
02:30:19 involved etc as you can see now
02:30:22 now just looking at what's on the screen there and on page five as i've read to you do you agree that that includes no detail at all about any of the callers vulnerabilities for example their age
02:30:33 vulnerabilities for example their age their disability or if they're with somebody who might need assistance with rescue whether there is a a pregnant person there or a child no but the the supervisors have done the
02:30:44 no but the the supervisors have done the the standard fire survival guidance training as well and they are you know whilst it's it's not explicit in there
02:30:52 in there as part of their information gathering they could ask those questions and and and you know we would expect callers to offer that information up uh leaving aside the expectation that
02:31:04 leaving aside the expectation that callers would offer that information up can you explain why although you do have a list here of information that is needed to be passed to the incident ground it omits
02:31:16 to the incident ground it omits uh what you say was in the standard fsg training namely um vulnerabilities disability age et cetera i'm not suggesting it is in the in the standard trauma i'm saying it's it's it's not
02:31:27 trauma i'm saying it's it's it's not explicit
02:31:28 explicit but that there's a sort of questions that they could ask the whole list of questions aren't you know that they're they're example the things that they could ask there is more to ask and obviously
02:31:38 obviously you know in it cause i've listened to callers offer up the fact that they they can't you know their their wheelchair wheelchair bound or or something similar or a vulnerability elsewhere why is it
02:31:49 or a vulnerability elsewhere why is it not explicit though um
02:31:52 um i don't know
02:31:55 and uh you say of course callers
02:31:58 callers offer up the fact that they're wheelchair-bound and they might but they might not
02:32:02 might not they might be embarrassed about it these are sensitive matters aren't they yes they are and and of course that's a part of the control officer's skill is to is to ask those questions in a roundabout way why not then have it as one of the
02:32:15 way why not then have it as one of the things on the list well it it could well be i mean it isn't it's not in here no and the question is given this importance in the fire survival context why isn't it
02:32:27 because as i've said i i think i think a call taker has the skill set to be able to like you say if people don't want to offer it up voluntarily because they're embarrassed then part of that question
02:32:40 embarrassed then part of that question setting that proactive question selling example may get that information from them
02:32:47 them can we go to page nine please and here we see a reference to
02:33:01 here we see a reference to placing all unrelated calls i'm so sorry page 13 let me go to page 13 please
02:33:18 this the heading here is releasing multiple fire survival calls now
02:33:25 now do you agree that even though this training presentation acknowledges the existence of multiple fire survival calls it doesn't include any training for
02:33:36 it doesn't include any training for supervisors on how to manage uh the collation and transmission of fsg information to the incident ground where there are multiple fsg calls being received it
02:33:47 multiple fsg calls being received it doesn't say on there no no do you do you agree that the training doesn't include any lessons um from the latin or house fire of any kind
02:33:56 kind um i mean i haven't shown you the whole of it but but i'm assuming that you're familiar with it we can scroll through it if you like uh if you wouldn't mind please right which we start with page uh one it's a 13-page slide i can take it
02:34:08 one it's a 13-page slide i can take it quite quickly yes so you've got the four core principles there continuous reassessment page two is supervisor fire survival guidance
02:34:17 and just have a look at that page three give assistance
02:34:24 there's the opening of the riff hypertexts monitor the call page four escape yes or no various questions about that is there another escape route etcetera five
02:34:35 another escape route etcetera five passing information to the incident ground we've seen that six
02:34:42 i'm going too fast no that's fine that's fine army order an ambulance informed the police seven
02:34:49 support information gathering uh main function for supervisors is to act as a support and a soul contact between controlling the incident drawing a plan of the premises
02:35:01 premises uh
02:35:02 uh using language line of caller is unable to understand and then next page please page
02:35:07 page eight
02:35:11 fire survival guidance
02:35:14 age nine passing information we've seen that yes page 10 lines of communication open and consider and then it says placing all unrelated radio traffic onto one channel if
02:35:25 radio traffic onto one channel if dealing with multiple fast survival calls there's another reference to multiple
02:35:29 multiple fire survival calls to free up the call taking positions if needed that's all about use of the radio yes and next one please
02:35:37 please uh if information is not available during the assessment of the initial call prompt the cro to continually gather information to relate to the incident commander remember assess and reassess 12
02:35:48 reassess 12 if information is not available 12 inform the incident commander immediately if the caller is in imminent danger
02:35:54 danger and then 13 lastly releasing multiple fire survival calls which is what we saw yes earlier now i've shown you all of that do you agree that that training include nothing um or no lessons drawn from the national house
02:36:06 no lessons drawn from the national house fire
02:36:07 fire i disagree i think that the the um the rift for the supervisor talks about continued communication with instant grounds there's a two-way communication that was a an issue from the um from la
02:36:21 that was a an issue from the um from la canal so and that's a big part of this um this presentation and of course assess and reassess always reassess was it which was another um aspect of
02:36:32 um aspect of of the la canal where we moved away from bonding and moved into uh
02:36:38 uh into the reassess so i do think there are elements in there to allow supervisor to deal with multiple cause i see now is it right that there was no training for supervisors on pn 790
02:36:50 training for supervisors on pn 790 when that was introduced in 2012. um i i don't recall when the training was or whether it was a familiarization with the um with the policy document itself but that
02:37:02 with the policy document itself but that form part of the cu training which control staff were involved in were supervisors ever trained in how to handle a large incident with multiple fsg calls
02:37:13 fsg calls from a perspective of a control of a controller perspective yes um that their their function is to
02:37:22 is to um support those officers that are that are taking that are taking calls yes and and when when when we're talking about multiple five survival calls you know from our experience
02:37:33 experience five was that was multiple so you know and and that would take us to in reality to a limit because you'd have one person to one caller which is potentially ten
02:37:44 potentially ten members of staff yes where supervisors ever trained in how in what to do where a large incident generated multiple fsg calls and particularly
02:37:55 multiple fsg calls and particularly concurrent fsg calls
02:38:02 i'm not sure i understand the question because
02:38:05 because you know it it from a commander control function no because their their function isn't commander control they're there to support the control officers taking those calls if those calls become
02:38:16 those calls if those calls become greater um then they could invariably end up taking calls their cells which is happened
02:38:23 happened um
02:38:24 um so i'm not not from a commander control function no can we then look at the lindridge review yet again this is lfb3033943
02:38:38 and
02:38:44 this is i believe the final version of this is the one which does not have the brown and deck and dexter comments we saw earlier this morning okay and if we go to page six it says this in relation to action 17.
02:38:57 to action 17. enhanced fsg training for control managers
02:39:01 managers and then it says the enhanced training is run in full for newly promoted assistant operations managers uh assistant operations managers aoms and has not been applied to existing
02:39:12 and has not been applied to existing staff this was first run in spring 2012 when three new officers started to perform the aom role the control room managers are seeking ways to apply the enhancements to existing aoms according
02:39:23 enhancements to existing aoms according to individual training needs the minerva course mentioned in the action log is not shown on the training template and there is no evidence of aom's attending minerva sessions in
02:39:34 aom's attending minerva sessions in their control room role if we go to page 15 of this document we jump ahead to that you'll see um under action 17 which starts on the previous page in
02:39:46 which starts on the previous page in fact on page 14 but on on
02:39:49 but on on page 15
02:39:53 uh it it says at the very bottom
02:40:00 sorry at the very top it says the senior operations managers have been tasked with applying this training to existing aoms based on individual training needs analyses
02:40:11 individual training needs analyses do you know why uh the training wasn't being run for existing staff when it was introduced in spring 2012. so just for clarity um going back to the point there it says fsg fsg control
02:40:24 point there it says fsg fsg control manager um that that's that's a bit of a it wasn't the case the fsg training for supervisors was was the rift the the additional rift to enable supervisors to
02:40:36 additional rift to enable supervisors to support control staff the control manager
02:40:40 manager training that we introduced was to was a general
02:40:43 general a a general development opportunity for newly promoted ioms which included a leadership course and it included a
02:40:54 leadership course and it included a number of modules in control including the
02:40:58 the frs supervisor rif training and a number of other of elements when working at the back of the room to give them development where we hadn't seen development before so we introduced that
02:41:09 development before so we introduced that at that time of course as time moved on that's moved through learning development now and that training i assume has been enhanced as all all trainers have but it was that the fact was and i think i talked about this on
02:41:22 was and i think i talked about this on my first day that control staff do a new entrance course and then they're promoted on assessment and they don't get any there's no formulated training for them so we introduced this one for
02:41:33 for them so we introduced this one for ioms to give them some form of um management training to enable to to manage staff and obviously the functions at the back of the room as supervisors so so the two
02:41:45 of the room as supervisors so so the two it's not fsg supervisor trade or manager training it is just development training for newly promoted aoms and the reason why you're sorry going back to your question
02:41:56 you're sorry going back to your question sir on the reason why it wasn't given to existing um the
02:42:01 the we suggested that they all do it there was um kickback in the fact that a lot of those aoms have been doing the job for 20 plus years and the i the oms on the watch would assess
02:42:13 the i the oms on the watch would assess uh those aoms and and tailor the training if they required it to enable them to get up to speed well can we just until i can understand that evidence go
02:42:24 until i can understand that evidence go back a page please uh to the beginning of action reference 17.
02:42:34 and at the foot of page 14 the expected outcome
02:42:38 outcome well entry on action log enhanced training for control supervisors as you can see then it goes on below that expected outcome control supervisors should be trained to support a control room operator
02:42:49 room operator when they are handling a fsg call to a standard commensurate with the national guidance so that was the outcome of this training
02:42:58 training and the review process findings then continue
02:43:01 continue the this action required a two-week package to be developed for aoms and it goes on
02:43:07 goes on and mentions the five-day foundational leadership course whilst this course description meets the requirements of the action it has only been applied to newly or temporarily promoted aoms the senior operations managers have been
02:43:18 senior operations managers have been tasked with applying this training to existing aoms based on individual training needs analyses so the outcome was very
02:43:28 was very clearly directed signposted at fsg calls wasn't it it was but but the the actual um could you just go or the review process
02:43:39 you just go or the review process findings
02:43:41 findings that doesn't doesn't meet that uh
02:43:45 uh i think the issue of i think there was confusion in fsg um supervisor training and iom development training i think there was a there was a a misunderstanding so we did
02:43:59 there was a a misunderstanding so we did do that um a rif supervisor train to give supervisors additional training when supporting a control officer taking an fsg call and we also developed a iom development
02:44:12 and we also developed a iom development program to give aoms a better opportunity to be able to use their supervisory skills and to give them a little bit more training in the
02:44:23 them a little bit more training in the functions at the back of the room i follow i follow the distinction you're making
02:44:27 making turning to the first limb of that riff supervisor training to give supervisors additional training was that given to existing staff
02:44:40 was that given to existing staff at least from 2010 that that billion to all i all aoe all supervisors but on a on a regular basis or only at the point of promotion i don't know
02:44:52 point of promotion i don't know all aoms would have got would have got that if if um if they because there have been cros before that sort of cro training but one of the modules in that supervisor training would have been the fr the fsg
02:45:05 training would have been the fr the fsg rift supervisor training yes my question is simply that once they became an aom and above did they get supervisor training based on that riff regularly by way of refresher training don't have
02:45:16 by way of refresher training don't have refresher training yes and of course that riff is available to them on the system at all times that they can refer to
02:45:22 to now let's see if we can pin this down in time terms can we go please to lfb double zero one two two eight four zero this is an email we looked at earlier
02:45:33 this is an email we looked at earlier um from early february 2013 during the inquest you'll remember it from yesterday and if we go to page three this is the email from you the 6th of february 2013
02:45:44 of february 2013 up to chris sharp nicola o'shea and vic bagnell
02:45:48 bagnell with all the red writing on it yes if you look at the second paragraph over on page four you ask a question can you let me know what the new supervisor training
02:45:59 what the new supervisor training consists of what elements the substantive supervisors will will already have covered and give a bit more detail why it isn't given to all supervisors as a matter of course or whether it's something you think we should do
02:46:11 something you think we should do and the response from nikki o'shea in red is
02:46:15 red is most supervisor training is on watch when gaining experience in this role we can provide specific lessons such as mass decon on request currently there are training packages available to all control staff covering specific lessons
02:46:26 control staff covering specific lessons which are all up to date we can provide the supervisor course tna copy attached which outlines the areas supervisors should be concentrating on however we cannot monitor their progress oms are
02:46:37 cannot monitor their progress oms are responsible for signing off the different elements we agree that all supervisors should be given development in this role but this would have to be done on watch with assistance from trainers for lesson-based training
02:46:49 trainers for lesson-based training now
02:46:50 now i confess to you that i find that a little difficult to follow are you able to explain in simple terms to me what she was saying
02:46:58 saying uh yes can i just have a quick read through again and i'll respond please too
02:47:12 all right so what she's saying is is she's saying most supervisor training is on watch and that that is correct it's on it's on job training because they already experienced control officers before they go on to watch so the back
02:47:23 before they go on to watch so the back of the room i mean the functions are very similar but obviously they've got a management functional supervisory function and there are there are elements of the mobilizer system that only supervisors get access to so so what
02:47:35 supervisors get access to so so what she's saying is that right we can provide specific lessons such as mass d conso uh mass decontamination so they have got training modules um which deal with
02:47:47 um which deal with mass decontamination cbrne mtfa
02:47:52 mtfa um which they can they can do as a trainer trainer led or assistance from trainers
02:47:58 trainers um
02:48:00 um so and and what she's saying there is it's obviously down to oms to assess whether their ioms are ready to be
02:48:08 to be um promoted or cross to be promoted to aom's or for ioms to be confirmed as ioms after their training right i mean she's not saying or is she saying that
02:48:19 she's not saying or is she saying that there was as yet no supervisory training in place at all at that time no no she's just given she's given an overview of where we are at that training but the defects here are i think is this
02:48:30 but the defects here are i think is this right that they were it was on watch training and that there was no way of monitoring the progress yes so originally so originally like i said that cro would get promoted
02:48:41 like i said that cro would get promoted to
02:48:42 to iom and they would go to the back of the room and they would just learn learn on on the job it was really the the management training that i can i can i was concerned with they had no
02:48:53 was concerned with they had no management training which is why and that there is no control leadership course um so we jumped on an operational leadership course which we got access to that staff can go and do that five days
02:49:04 that staff can go and do that five days but there are a number of modules which could be trainer-led to assist those to give them what they need to be uh supervisors i i see so in a nutshell there was training but it was
02:49:16 a nutshell there was training but it was left up to the supervisors to do on watch they weren't monitored uh and they needed development but that would have to be done on watch no that's not that's not what what i'm saying
02:49:27 saying is that that's what that's what she's writing there but in reality you know we devised because of the fact that there was no um
02:49:37 um development opportunity for a cro to aom or aom to to om for that matter we introduced this program of a week's leadership and and these modules to
02:49:49 leadership and and these modules to enable supervisors to get up to speed and be more informed one of those modules included the super the fsg supervisor tna just for our benefit is is training needs analysis training analysis yes and
02:50:01 needs analysis training analysis yes and can we look then at lfb triple zero two not sorry two eight nine zero four and fb triple zero two eight nine zero four
02:50:12 and this is an email from uh som vic bagnell to all operations managers senior managers the ost and two i think lfb colleagues chris bobby and robin hannon dated the
02:50:24 chris bobby and robin hannon dated the 20th of march 2013 resupervisor training and uh
02:50:31 and uh it starts operations managers that's the um the
02:50:34 um the address uh supervisors training needs analysis
02:50:39 analysis one of the outcomes from the brigade's internal investigations into the lachenal incident is that a requirement be placed upon supervisory staff in the control room to undertake a training needs analysis tna
02:50:50 undertake a training needs analysis tna and consequently any required training to ensure that all supervisory staff at om and aom level are trained in all of the areas specified in the tna this is an explicit instruction from principal managers
02:51:02 principal managers operations managers are to discuss and complete the attached tna document with each of their supervisory officers whether those staff are temporarily promoted or substantive in their role operations managers should also complete
02:51:14 operations managers should also complete a tna document for themselves a copy of the completed tna form for each member of staff is to be saved at the following location supervisor tnas so that staff's progress through their
02:51:25 so that staff's progress through their tna can be monitored managerially the tna will determine the level of proficiency of each relevant member of staff against every element of the supervisor supervisors course see
02:51:36 supervisor supervisors course see attached and note whether they have previously received any training in that area and whether any further training is required if no training has been received or skill levels are such that retraining is required then that training is to be arranged as
02:51:48 then that training is to be arranged as a matter of urgency tna was designed to form the basis of a supervisory course broken into modules however the majority of the training is in areas and activities undertaken on
02:51:59 in areas and activities undertaken on watch working as part of normal operations and watch or team management with the latter course requirements available as separate courses that can be applied for through hotwire the summary table belay provides a guide
02:52:11 summary table belay provides a guide please note that some elements are mandatory and others only recommended and then if you um go please to page two uh the bottom of that page
02:52:22 page underneath the table you can see that it says this the tna must be completed at the earliest opportunity ideally before the end of march 2013 so that we can factor in any training requirements to the plan for
02:52:34 training requirements to the plan for next year
02:52:35 next year i read that at length to you yes mr hayward was this
02:52:41 was this looking at its date at least was this the solution to the recommendation in the lingeridge review about supervisor training yes yes and i think you confirmed this before
02:52:52 and i think you confirmed this before but would the tna have included in fsg training fsg supervisor if it's used supervisors yes
02:53:08 and then if we go to lfb triple zero five
02:53:12 five zero three nine two please following the story further into 2013
02:53:20 this is a meeting of the nf epa joint committee for control staff jcc minutes of a meeting monday 8th of april 2013 10 30 union street
02:53:32 10 30 union street and you can see that among those present was you
02:53:35 was you yes yes and richard chandler um can you explain the purpose of this committee yeah it's a um a monthly union meeting between management and gmb
02:53:46 union meeting between management and gmb in unison at this point because fb you hadn't joined at that then i see and you've got you've got um jack elements benito who's hr
02:53:57 jack elements benito who's hr and dermot green was the joint sect for management um
02:54:01 um from uh
02:54:03 from uh right
02:54:04 right there from brigade they're brigades yeah on the staff side chris moore is a was an aom um
02:54:12 um he's joined the secretary for gmb cedia weller was a control officer and port paul real
02:54:18 paul real was an aom as well yes uh
02:54:22 uh and that's the as it were the union side yes i see now on page two of the minutes we can see uh this uh uh you have to follow it through a little bit but there's a heading fast survival guidance brigade is item 2.
02:54:35 survival guidance brigade is item 2. uh and it looks as if it's a sort of script it's not really a script but
02:54:41 a non-verbatim note of what was said and you could see that members of the staff side raised the issue of the tna being implemented as a result of the latino incident am i is that a fair summary yes
02:54:53 summary yes and then um the brigade say that the purpose of the tna was to identify if training has taken place and if not to ensure that training was arranged again is that a fair summary of what's being
02:55:04 is that a fair summary of what's being said there i believe so yes and staffs i'd say there's confusion as to what should be happening and the brigade said or confirmed that the tna would denote whether individual passes or
02:55:16 or whether training is required more training is required
02:55:23 i think that's the last the last word under that yes section
02:55:27 section uh
02:55:29 uh and indeed it says said that tna would denote whether an individual passes or whether they would require further training advise that they would ensure that all aoms undertake the training regardless whether they are permanent or temporary confirm that they will provide
02:55:41 temporary confirm that they will provide clarification uh as to what is expected and then your initials sh are assigned to that action yes did you provide clarification as to what was expected
02:55:52 clarification as to what was expected um i believe i did how did you do that verbally right to whom the jcc
02:55:59 the jcc at another meeting i believe so i might have done it there i may have done it there could i just right um what happened as a result do you know
02:56:15 so the outcome the outcome of this is the is the the training plan for the supervisory course
02:56:23 well let me let me try this way did supervisors submit the tnas as contemplated i believe so yes and was further training for supervisors identified as a result
02:56:35 for supervisors identified as a result of that process what sorry was further training for supervisors identified as part of that yes all new aoms and
02:56:45 aoms and those that were promoted after that time and was fsg training rolled out to existing operations managers as part of this training one of those one of those modules was the fsg
02:56:56 those one of those modules was the fsg supervisors training
02:57:00 training right that's the only supervisor training for fire survivor guidance that there that there is for supervisors and was that rolled out universally so that every aom or om received such
02:57:11 that every aom or om received such training or all aoms received the fsg supervisor rift training
02:57:19 this is this is whilst it's under fire survival guidance i think it was on the one of the outcomes of the lack of inquiry and when i go with it before where i think there's confusion between um
02:57:29 um the fsg supervisor riff and the development manager training for aom's
02:57:42 uh you'll recall i think from the phase one report that
02:57:47 that and some of the evidence given in phase one that some supervisors uh told the inquiry that um the supervisor training that they received never never covered
02:57:58 received never never covered their role as managers covering a major incident and they'd never been trained in what should happen in their role at a major incident no as a commander control
02:58:09 no as a commander control that there was no train delivered i've i've received no training on what happens on a major incident because it's a commander control function and control and not command a control
02:58:20 and not command a control um department where we service deliver the command of control so i don't think anybody from me downwards has been trained in how to deal with a major incident of control right uh well we may
02:58:33 incident of control right uh well we may need to revisit that line
02:58:35 line after the break mr chairman um yes it's a couple of minutes before one o'clock um i'm very nearly at the end of my questions i should say but i do have a little bit more to go so
02:58:46 so this is an appropriate moment to break subject yes and following up on that last question right thank you very much well i think this is a sensible time to stop for lunch with taywood thank you we'll break now we'll come back please
02:58:57 we'll break now we'll come back please at two o'clock and as before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence thank you all right thank you very much thank you
02:59:15 thank you two o'clock then please
02:59:46 you