London Local Authority Gold Evidence - Tuesday 17th May 2022 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:22 would you ask mr beryl to come back in please

00:00:36 all right mr meredith ready to carry on i hope so yes thank you very much yes yes thank you mr chairman let's uh creep a little further forward in the uh time on the 16th of june 2017. gaol

00:00:50 uh time on the 16th of june 2017. gaol 50285 please

00:01:03 email from john hetherington 16th of june 13

00:01:06 june 13 30

00:01:08 30 to

00:01:09 to all legal authority chief executives on behalf of nicholas holgate and john barrett barrydel that's that's the heading

00:01:16 heading uh just at that point what well had you had a discussion with john hetherington i don't recall but it would make sense if i if i had done so markup or mark so

00:01:27 if i if i had done so markup or mark so i would have done so yes and

00:01:31 yes and did you authorize him on your behalf to send

00:01:34 send this message

00:01:41 i don't recall if i'm honest but none of it none of it would lead me to believe i didn't do so quite happy to accept the contents of it that makes sense it says good afternoon following a request from rb kensington and chelsea for strategic

00:01:53 rb kensington and chelsea for strategic support

00:01:54 support due to the increasing complexity and severity of the grenfell tower fire for the london local authority gold operations that have been activated

00:02:05 now it goes on to say this is to ensure that that london local government collectively supports our bkc during these extremely challenging times john barreldale is supporting our bknc

00:02:17 john barreldale is supporting our bknc and will be supported further by chief executives as required those chief executives are aware and on standby now there's nothing in that well first of all i suppose i should ask you this did you approve that text before it went

00:02:28 did you approve that text before it went on your behalf not that i recall but i think there's nothing in there that would i would resolve from if that makes sense well except this isn't it that the london local authority gold operations were activated the night before and now

00:02:41 were activated the night before and now we're now about to be stepped out of altogether by the new and unprecedented arrangements that you are taking over i understand the question i think what it's saying here though is that there's a specific request coming to local

00:02:52 a specific request coming to local authorities to provide support particularly in the areas of hotel accommodation and support for accommodation and so on so i think there is a there is a slight difference here between

00:03:03 between standing on one side and assisting the request and actively asking for support from other colleagues well semantically that may be justified but as a matter of impression mr baradel is that really right i mean would you accept from me

00:03:15 right i mean would you accept from me that the impression given by those first two paragraphs is that

00:03:20 is that is that normal operating procedure under local authority gold had been activated which would result in you all providing support not that london local authority gold has been outgrown by these response

00:03:32 gold has been outgrown by these response to the fire and you are now taking over from

00:03:36 from nicholas holgate i think that's fair but the timing of this is 1 30 13 30. i wouldn't i'd need to check at what time i had the conversation with joe

00:03:47 joe for example i see so could there's one explanation that this predated it it could well i'd need to check the time in which case that that would mean that after the conversation there would have to be a pretty

00:03:58 there would have to be a pretty substantial correction made by where the new message to all local authority chief executives it would depend upon the reason for doing so i i would read this as being a

00:04:09 doing so i i would read this as being a request from colleagues to provide support and to expect further support to be asked for um who who chairs the meeting bluntly is a different matter for a colleague let's say in havering or hackney the

00:04:22 let's say in havering or hackney the request here was you will be asked for additional resource and support please be aware of that and please reply to it

00:04:30 and as it says at the last piece an operational update is being prepared for all boroughs and it'll be circulated through the ep teams

00:04:46 now um if we go to your second statement please

00:04:51 gol401706 please let's go to page 16. paragraph 86 you there set out the primary issues to be addressed

00:05:02 to be addressed when you became llag at 1400 on friday the 16th of june 2017. uh now

00:05:11 uh now uh

00:05:13 you answer the question in terms of the issues but you don't actually qualify the answer by reference to what it is that you did become at two o'clock why was that

00:05:21 was that um i don't believe i think the the question was asking the primary issues to become addressed i didn't focus on the nomenclature or the title required

00:05:32 title required i thought the question was predominantly to see what were the issues what were the actions where was my mind at the time in terms of the things that needed to be done

00:05:43 and you set out there some bullet points first humanitarian assistance with wraparound support for families second to work through the victim journey i.e immediate support over the

00:05:54 journey i.e immediate support over the next 24 hours to longer term support for families ensuring an accurate picture of the number of who were bereaved ensuring an accurate picture of the number of people in the building beyond the number of residents by matching public lists of

00:06:06 of residents by matching public lists of data on a per flat basis now if we look further at paragraph 88 in two paragraphs down at the foot of your screen you go on to say

00:06:17 your screen you go on to say i would expect for a positive impact to be felt within the first 24 hours if not sooner the role of london local authority gold is to support affected local authorities by ensuring a

00:06:28 local authorities by ensuring a collective and coordinated response is provided by london local authorities llag is empowered by the gold resolution to commit resources and expenditure on behalf of the affected boroughs based on specific requests for support provided

00:06:41 specific requests for support provided by the boroughs and with their agreement in situations where multiple boroughs are affected llag is empowered to represent those boroughs and the wider london local authority community at strategic coordination group meetings

00:06:54 strategic coordination group meetings um

00:06:55 um was a positive impact in fact made within the first hours of your leadership i would hope that people would have felt a difference in the first 24 hours yes

00:07:06 a difference in the first 24 hours yes and let's um look at those then i'd like to examine the response which you led from

00:07:13 from two o'clock let's say on the 16th of june under six topics and i'll just enumerate them for you first first registration or identification of those affected by the fire second operation of the west way and

00:07:25 second operation of the west way and humanitarian assistance center and support to those offered who were in hotels third communication fourth walkways

00:07:33 walkways uh fifth distribution of financial assistance and sixth wrap around support namely key workers so let's turn to the first of those is it right that on the 16th of june you were in contact with

00:07:44 16th of june you were in contact with mike adamson who was chief executive of the brc i believe so if memory is correct yes and i think you invited him to attend meetings at the offices in westminster where you were located to be

00:07:55 westminster where you were located to be located we were relocated to westminster yes yes

00:07:59 yes yes let's look at his statement brc 6075 please

00:08:04 please page 17

00:08:05 page 17 paragraph 77 i recall a number of chief executives sitting down in a room with their own handwritten tables trying to establish lists of who had been affected by the grenfell fire who had been bereaved who'd been made homeless where

00:08:18 bereaved who'd been made homeless where people were being housed in temporary accommodation what their needs were and whether and if so how those needs were being met

00:08:24 being met there was not a clear picture as i note above a paragraph 69 registration of those affected is a critical first step in emergency response it was therefore not ideal that the process remained

00:08:35 not ideal that the process remained ongoing and without a clear methodology more than three days after the fire had started

00:08:40 started it would appear that our bkc had not been able to pass such information to gr gfrt

00:08:48 gfrt uh now gfrt i think stands for the grenfell fire retar recovery task force is that that's right yes um do you agree with him that over that weekend 17th 18th june there was still

00:09:02 weekend 17th 18th june there was still not a clear picture of the details and the needs of those who were affected by the fire and the assistance they required

00:09:09 required i think i would agree with that yes there was an awful lot of work to be done

00:09:13 done to pull together information that didn't seem to have been collated in advance why was there a difficulty in completing that task i think the information was incomplete

00:09:26 did it surprise you that it was incomplete i was

00:09:33 it should have been complete it would be one of the basic functions of

00:09:38 of a recovery of an incident to get a list of those affected by it how they've been affected and to make sure that support and resource was directed for them and assistance was given to them the fact that there was not a

00:09:51 them the fact that there was not a consistent coherent list was surprising in the circumstances i wasn't surprised given what i'd seen on the friday and some of the experiences of others in the days after

00:10:03 experiences of others in the days after the event in accordance with the pan london con civil contingencies arrangements how ought to hit it to have worked so that the lists

00:10:14 so that the lists were complete i would have expected that to be part of the humanitarian assistance work through the borough emergency control center for that information to have been collated

00:10:26 and then if you go to page 21 mr adamson goes on to say in paragraph 99

00:10:33 99 the issues with the registration process lingered until around tuesday the 20th to thursday 22nd june 2017. is that right

00:10:44 is that right i can believe that's correct yes why did those issues persist even after for some days after you took over i think it's um

00:10:58 if one doesn't start a recovery process in the right way by which i mean the processes and procedures are set up first of all to gather the information of survivors bereaved and those affected

00:11:10 of survivors bereaved and those affected at the beginning before people are housed in hotels or dispersed away for an example it would be and was very difficult i believe for colleagues to identify who

00:11:21 believe for colleagues to identify who was

00:11:23 was affected for the information to be collated where their physical where their current whereabouts were and arrangements to be made to understand the support and the support that they needed be it financial support

00:11:34 that they needed be it financial support via other kinds of support i think once that early start had been lost it was time you could not recover so would you say that this was an inevitable problem

00:11:46 inevitable problem even before you took over i would say if the work hadn't been done it would be very difficult to catch up and therefore there was inevitability if the processes hadn't been put in place that this would be one of the outcomes yes is there a

00:11:57 be one of the outcomes yes is there a reason why you couldn't start from scratch or use a different model rather than the one which has had proven itself to be inadequate

00:12:05 i think the model was very different what we've done here was we put in under the leadership of experienced chief executives and their staff that they bought in and other volunteers a system to try and rectify

00:12:17 system to try and rectify what had happened it was inevitably going to take time for that to happen for that to become a system that worked and michael adamson is quite right in saying that this took a a significant period of time far

00:12:28 a a significant period of time far longer than one would wish to be honest and what impact did you at the time think that that lack of information or incomplete picture had on your ability to lead as the llag gold

00:12:39 ability to lead as the llag gold or whatever role you were occupying impact on my role as such limited

00:12:49 limited role on the survivors bereaved and those affected significant because the support that they needed the support that they were entitled to us as an authority as public bodies as a

00:13:00 as an authority as public bodies as a society was impacted by not knowing frankly

00:13:04 frankly sometimes who they were and where they were

00:13:08 were let me ask you can i just ask you this given the nature of the disaster and the fact that people were self-evacuating from the tower from quite an early stage in it

00:13:19 quite an early stage in it and going to who knows where some to rest centers some perhaps to friends or family or whatever was the uh compiling of the sort of information you have in mind not inevitably going to be

00:13:31 have in mind not inevitably going to be very complex i think it would have been complex i think the thing that i think was missing

00:13:37 missing was a consistent process to receive it to collate it and one where information and communication took place to allow people to come forward to say i lived i lived in this part of

00:13:49 say i lived i lived in this part of the tower or in the surrounding area this is where i currently am so i think there were two processes here one was recording the other one was encouraging people to come forward

00:14:01 encouraging people to come forward yes right thank you was there a system or process provided for as part of the pan london arrangements or even the national arrangements whereby

00:14:13 whereby identification and registration of people who had with the subject of a mass displacement could be gathered and processed quickly and efficiently

00:14:25 i think within if my memory is right if within the humanitarian protocols yes there is a process a system whether it's for mass evacuation and displacement like this for an

00:14:37 and displacement like this for an example to multiple sites is a point i'm not absolutely not certain of but i'm pretty sure there is a process outlined in either the mass evacuation program or the family um the

00:14:48 program or the family um the humanitarian assistance program that includes that if there is and if it's clear and and tried and tested can you explain why it wasn't reached for by rbkc i can't

00:15:00 by rbkc i can't now the next topic was the operation of the westward and the humanitarian assistance center and provision of support to those in hotels at the time of your stepping in in on friday the 16th of june

00:15:12 friday the 16th of june were you aware from the media reports and the feedback from your staff and indeed from david bellamy that there were concerns about the adequacy of the provision of humanitarian support at the west way absolutely yes yes

00:15:24 absolutely yes yes and if we go to gol401667

00:15:28 um this is your logbook for the 16th of june

00:15:34 there's there's the first page am i right and thinking that that is the first it's book number one and you opened that at two o'clock on that day yes that's right uh uh and

00:15:45 uh uh and you can see that you opened it as llag yes yes as described by the logist yes as described by the logist um now um if you go to page three please let's look

00:15:56 you go to page three please let's look at entry 10 gold group aw

00:16:01 it says that in 1805 on that day jb requests that wcc provide drive by of westway center to make assessment

00:16:12 of westway center to make assessment action jb requests the wcc housing team to attend westway to assist rbkc to assess the need what was the purpose of that request

00:16:23 what was the purpose of that request that was to have

00:16:26 external people who had not necessarily been involved in the west way before to make an assessment in their professional judgment as to how how well that center was running right and that that was barbara

00:16:37 right and that that was barbara brownlee's team i believe it was yes barbara was the housing officer did you have a conversation with her i don't recall afterwards um i have to say the period from two o'clock on the friday through the

00:16:48 two o'clock on the friday through the rest of the the sunday was quite manic if i can put it that way let's go to rbk3021096

00:16:58 this is

00:17:01 is a

00:17:03 a we need to go to page one of that please yes these are the london scg minutes two o'clock on the 17th of june so this is the this is the two o'clock

00:17:14 so this is the this is the two o'clock meeting

00:17:16 meeting and it is of the scg yes

00:17:20 yes and

00:17:21 and if you go to the last page of that as as is always the case page five you'll see the attendees and there under local authorities we see nicholas holgate mark sawyer and you

00:17:34 nicholas holgate mark sawyer and you what in what capacity was nicholas holgate attending that meeting i think nicholas at that time was still i asked him still to maintain i think this is a saturday if i'm right on the 17th yes

00:17:46 17th yes nicholas had been asked to continue to look at

00:17:49 look at some areas of work to do with the internal support and structure of the scg of the sorry the response here now if we go to page two and look at paragraph 4.1

00:18:02 and look at paragraph 4.1 under key issues and strategic decisions it says this community tensions and engagement and then the first bullet point cobra is discussing options to engage the community and reduce tensions nicholas

00:18:14 community and reduce tensions nicholas holgate rbkc reported that the rest center is functioning today without issues but that efforts had been impeded by the unrest yesterday did you share nicholas holgate's view that the rest center was functioning as

00:18:27 that the rest center was functioning as it says here without issues that day no i i'm fairly convinced there were still issues in the rest center you're not recorded here as disagreeing with him did you disagree with him at the meeting i can't recall but these are

00:18:39 the meeting i can't recall but these are bullet points of discussions that took place rather than full-blown minutes were you satisfied with your own situational awareness at that point um i had if this is sorry you can refer back

00:18:51 had if this is sorry you can refer back is it two o'clock two o'clock on the saturday i had asked for the drive-by to take place on the friday i believe and i visited the site on the saturday had met with two officers i believe from ealing council

00:19:04 officers i believe from ealing council who were

00:19:05 who were if i put it this way had volunteered and were seemingly leading the response in the westway center and they were quite clear on their needs that they had which were significant

00:19:17 and were actioned i have to say right are you sure you visited with the west way before this meeting or or could it have been afterwards pretty sure it was if this was at two o'clock i'm

00:19:28 was if this was at two o'clock i'm pretty sure it was in the morning i went there

00:19:33 i think that's covered in repent one of the one of the officers i think provided a

00:19:38 a statement to the inquiry if you call that up it will say well i believe it was saturday i went and spoke to them now if well we've got the meeting minutes open if we can go then please to page three and look at section five public communications first

00:19:51 section five public communications first bullet point only bullet point there was no comms officer on the call but comms group met this morning key messages rbkc is keeping pace with the demands for housing and supporting the community

00:20:02 housing and supporting the community now that may have been a key message as recorded here but did it accurately reflect the truth clearly not the demands for housing uh far outstripped the capacity or the uh

00:20:13 far outstripped the capacity or the uh availability of housing in that sense right at that time now you've been in charge if i can use a neutral expression of the response for 24 hours

00:20:25 of the response for 24 hours can you account for why it is that the seg is being told at this point with you present that rbkc is keeping pace with the demands for housing and supporting the community no i can't i mean that's that's patent

00:20:37 no i can't i mean that's that's patent you can't no and did you know that that wasn't the case or did you think that it was the case um at no point at the beginning of this in fact through the

00:20:47 the inquiries period on the 20th was i satisfied that the demands for housing were being met the numbers simply didn't weren't there and i think as has been said by

00:20:57 said by um the now chief executive of kensington and chelsea the the availability of housing in that borough always was very limited and the numbers simply weren't there to

00:21:08 and the numbers simply weren't there to support the number of displaced people

00:21:11 people how can you account for the fact that this was stated at the meeting given what you knew at the time all i can surmise is that the

00:21:21 the community support was being provided but the key messages were rather odd given that clearly the case was not that

00:21:35 and why didn't you speak out and say no this isn't right at all the rbkc is nowhere near keeping pace with demands for housing there's a problem i don't recall whether i did or not but the they're not recorded as seeing

00:21:46 but the they're not recorded as seeing so again

00:21:47 so again i'm not being defensive but these aren't minutes these are bullet points so these are actions as it were that follow as you can see the line below but i have to say

00:21:56 say um i don't believe the statement right rbkc

00:21:59 rbkc and the team we're not keeping pace with the demands for housing now let's go back to your second statement page 22 please

00:22:07 please paragraph 115 a third of the way down your screen you say there's a situation on the 17th developed on the 17th and based on the footage that i saw on the media and sit

00:22:18 footage that i saw on the media and sit reps being received i wanted a view to be taken on the facilities on the ground and tasked alex woodman to attend in the early afternoon of saturday 17th june 2017 i recall receiving a call from him

00:22:29 2017 i recall receiving a call from him where he made me aware that the westway center was not in his opinion suitable for the needs of families he advised me that he had been briefed by two layla's on scene of their concerns and recommended that i attend myself

00:22:41 recommended that i attend myself and if you look at 116 you say i attended the center that afternoon with eleanor kelly i met two lelo's rupinder hardy and philip lee morris i've included correspondence from eleanor

00:22:52 included correspondence from eleanor rupinder and philip that set out the concerns identified so it looks as if you attended after the meeting from that yes yes what were your observations do you recall when you arrived at the west

00:23:03 you recall when you arrived at the west way

00:23:05 way if i could if if i recall correctly there was um a number of tables laid out a pile

00:23:17 a pile of donated goods a number of individuals sitting behind the tables trying to meet members of the public it did not look organized to me right and i think it's right that you

00:23:28 right that you well

00:23:28 well first i should ask did you did you agree or did you disagree with his feedback alex woodman's feedback that uh the rest center wasn't suitable for the needs of families affected by the fire absolutely agreed you did and

00:23:41 the fire absolutely agreed you did and how did you go about addressing those concerns

00:23:43 concerns there were two parts one was first of all understanding from uh philip and rapinder that's philip lee morris and rapinder hardy what their needs were immediately in

00:23:54 what their needs were immediately in terms of trying to improve it and secondly um making sure that we established the family and friends reception center with some speed which was specifically for the bereaved and

00:24:06 was specifically for the bereaved and the survivors to meet with the family liaison officers from the met police

00:24:11 police and make sure that was set up with the help and support from the chief executive of hackney council and i think that happened from the sunday didn't it was up and running on the sunday yesterday yeah that and just to be clear

00:24:22 yesterday yeah that and just to be clear that was a transition from rest center into a dedicated community assistance center i think it's yes specifically for survivors and bereaved yes

00:24:31 yes and how long did it take for you to you and the response team to make the west westway center suitable for that purpose uh it's a different facility sorry the

00:24:42 uh it's a different facility sorry the the the family and friends reception center was set up in hoban that was created

00:24:47 created in i believe then overnight on this saturday into the sunday you'd have to help me here with my my recollection of this it was over seen by the chief executives

00:25:00 it was over seen by the chief executives of the say of hackney council with support from the private sector as well

00:25:05 well um who donated the facilities to be provided

00:25:09 provided well i asked you and sort of clarify something i'm really focusing on the west way uh not the opening of a of a an frc right to use the lingo yeah uh

00:25:20 to use the lingo yeah uh just focusing on the west way uh we know from other evidence that it transitioned from being a rest center into a community assistance center or is that not something you recall i don't i don't recall the point in time that

00:25:31 don't recall the point in time that happened

00:25:32 happened right

00:25:33 right do you not recall that the westway centre was made into a place where people could go for support yes i was aware of that yes right well let's just see if we can track it through the documents can we go please

00:25:45 through the documents can we go please to cab402792

00:25:52 i'm still focusing on the westway center please and if the these are the um

00:26:00 minutes of the officials meeting uh

00:26:05 uh in whitehall the officials being those of all deputed to the grenfell tower recovery task force and this is at 15 30 on tuesday the 20th of june

00:26:16 on tuesday the 20th of june so long after the weekend and you can see patty mcginnis in the chair and others present including catherine hammond and melanie dawes and if you can turn to page three please paragraph 15

00:26:28 turn to page three please paragraph 15 uh it says at the foot of the page john baradel outlined the purpose of westway community center john baradel raised concerns that the management was not adequate enough the new center which was set to be opened would be specifically

00:26:41 set to be opened would be specifically be for people who had lost loved ones and who would need to have contact with the coroner de vere hotels were willing to provide a site for this new center do you remember that i do yeah

00:26:51 yeah this was at a time i think when rbkc were no longer managing the rest center and had not been doing so since saturday the 17th and yet here we see tuesday uh the tuesday afterwards concerns

00:27:02 uh the tuesday afterwards concerns continuing uh about

00:27:05 uh about uh about it's a suitability can you explain why those concerns hadn't been resolved in the four days that you had been occupying the role of so-called london gold so if my again if my recollection is

00:27:17 so if my again if my recollection is correct

00:27:18 correct the concerns here were about the quality

00:27:23 quality and the quantity of support being provided to those who turned up to westway

00:27:28 westway to the westway center the new centre was the one specifically again for people who were survivors bereaved and those affected and who had a family liaison officer and that's the reference

00:27:40 liaison officer and that's the reference to de veer hotels the concern that the management wasn't adequate enough would be have been about resource available in the west bay centre specifically for advice yes and why did those concerns still persist as late as the tuesday

00:27:52 still persist as late as the tuesday um

00:27:53 um 20th

00:27:55 20th because they still needed to be resolved the concerns would evidently still need to be resolved yes i can't recall it precisely what they were why hadn't you or your team got a grip on those concerns before then

00:28:07 on those concerns before then um

00:28:08 um i can't answer the question

00:28:11 well you might be able to it's a why question can you give us a reason sitting there no no absolutely not clearly not

00:28:22 now this

00:28:23 this suggests

00:28:26 suggests that

00:28:27 that this text here suggests that the news center would be or would be akin to an frc of friends and relatives reception center within the las lp lingard for the bereaved rather than a rest

00:28:39 for the bereaved rather than a rest center for those displaced by the fire correct is is that right before that was the west way operating in both capacities

00:28:51 it was a center available for both i would not have expected family liaison officers to have arranged meetings with the coroner for an example in the west bay centre that would seem to be very inappropriate and i don't believe

00:29:04 inappropriate and i don't believe can't be sure i don't believe that happened i don't really recollect it happening the purpose of the de vere hotel facility was specifically to allow that engagement to take place between the flos the coroner not if necessary

00:29:18 the flos the coroner not if necessary and the families of the bereaved but when did that start when did the veer hotels provide a site for the believe it was the next day i you need to help me with the timeline uh

00:29:29 uh well i we would suggest it's not until the thursday in fact sophia i mean i'll take that as being the thursday now we've heard on the subject of hotels

00:29:41 on the subject of hotels we've heard from

00:29:45 people who lost their homes and couldn't or couldn't return to them that they were put in hotels throughout london as an initial emergency response when did you first become aware that there were concerns about the welfare of those who had been placed in

00:29:58 welfare of those who had been placed in hotels

00:30:00 hotels those were i believe raised on the over the weekends of the saturday or sunday to me and that came from the humanitarian assistance group i believe right

00:30:10 right and

00:30:11 and we've heard evidence about the suitability of the accommodation provided the unavailability of suitable food

00:30:17 food in the an overwhelming sense as you may have heard from some of the earlier witnesses that families felt abandoned and unsupported and that continued even after you had taken over on

00:30:29 taken over on uh the friday was that your understanding or your impression

00:30:35 if i'd have been aware of individual or the circumstances then i would have asked for actions to take place to address it the

00:30:46 the arrangements sorry the the arrangements for people to be put into or to be housed in temporary hotel accommodation would partly have been done by kensington and chelsea council when they

00:30:58 kensington and chelsea council when they were responsible running the centers at westway and elsewhere the piece as you alluded to before lunch about understanding who were and where were the survivors and victims and the

00:31:10 were the survivors and victims and the bereaved was not a complete picture as soon as it became evident where the individuals were the location the hotel or with family friends and so on then the idea of this wrap around

00:31:21 then the idea of this wrap around support came about where an individual social worker was assigned to each individual to try and understand the needs that those individuals had and then to coordinate those needs to be met i am aware now that they were

00:31:33 i am aware now that they were individuals who didn't get that support that they should have done so can we take it from that that you were not aware at least during the first few days after the after you took over

00:31:44 few days after the after you took over on the friday that there were um

00:31:49 individuals who'd lost their homes or couldn't go back who were in either an unsuitable accommodation because of their needs or who were not not

00:31:57 not not obtaining

00:31:59 obtaining appropriate food um and had or harbored an overwhelming sense of of destitution did it not come through to you that information i think there are two parts

00:32:10 information i think there are two parts if i can to illustrate that if i don't believe i was aware of individual cases it did not it would not and did not surprise me that a number of people who'd been directly affected

00:32:22 who'd been directly affected or those indeed who had to evacuate from their homes that had been damaged where they couldn't go back were not in suitable accommodation and had needs that were not met and that's why

00:32:33 and that's why a significant amount of work was taking place i'm aware in the humanitarian assistance group and the housing group under barbara browning two different parts here to try and get that support

00:32:44 parts here to try and get that support to people and to understand as i've said where they were who they were where they were

00:32:48 were and what their needs would be it's not it's not a perfect setup i completely agree now you you you make the point that you

00:32:59 now you you you make the point that you weren't aware of individual cases but were you not aware of generic instances or categories of case where these problems had either arisen or had persisted i i'm not sure i was

00:33:11 persisted i i'm not sure i was yeah i'd be surprised if it hadn't been raised with me that there were concerns and issues in as you as you put it

00:33:18 it with the accommodation of some people for an example suitability of accommodation certainly became clear during the course of the next few days when a number of families had clearly been put into hotels that

00:33:29 had clearly been put into hotels that were not big enough didn't have the right facilities yeah that was certainly that certainly did arise within the first few days and steps were then asked to be taken to try and address that

00:33:41 try and address that let's um see if we can pin this to a document rbk3021897

00:33:52 this is an email

00:33:56 if we go please to

00:33:59 page three

00:34:05 um yeah we have an email here uh in fact it starts at the foot of page uh two from jerry crowley at hammersmith and fulham to kim darrow also at hammersmith and fulham

00:34:17 also at hammersmith and fulham and works it works his way through the lbhf

00:34:21 lbhf network that and that's because that's where the humanitarian assistance was coming from but if it goes on at the top of page three we've been in touch with knc this morning and i can confirm that they have

00:34:34 morning and i can confirm that they have placed

00:34:36 tenants from grenfell tower into a total of 26 commercial hotels of which three are located in the following h f hotels then they're set out and then um if you go down to the large

00:34:48 and then um if you go down to the large paragraph in the center of your screen it says this in the meantime we've visited all three hotels today and spoken with hotel management tenants and support staff we have found inconsistent levels of service being provided to

00:34:59 levels of service being provided to tenants at the hotels for example the families of the ibis have an open tab with regards to food and bar the holiday inn families have been provided with 500 pounds and have access to breakfast my main concern is

00:35:10 access to breakfast my main concern is for the tenants residing at the premier indian hammersmith there are 12 families who have not been contacted by k and c since placement almost six days ago we were the first to visit them at the hotel they have no idea regarding what

00:35:21 hotel they have no idea regarding what happens next and have not been provided contact details for k c they receive two meals per day breakfast and dinner but have not received any cash subsistence i will able to they update the families

00:35:32 i will able to they update the families at the premier area with k c contact details and information on how to access further assistance including financial assistance all 12 families will be given 50 pounds from h f to help with immediate expenses now it was that

00:35:45 immediate expenses now it was that problem

00:35:47 problem the one specifically identified there or problems like it brought to your attention during the first few days after you took over this one is dated the 19th of june so that's the monday

00:36:01 i don't recall if specific ones were what i could say is that if they were they would have been given to the staff the chief execs and other staff who were working with those

00:36:12 staff who were working with those this clearly is not acceptable no clearly not acceptable and i have to apologize for the the families in the premier league hammersmith that's not the standard i'd expect

00:36:24 the standard i'd expect and i would hope that when this was raised through hammersmith and fulham that action was taken uh along the blinds at the bottom but there was follow-up and the money and the other support provided but no there's no

00:36:35 support provided but no there's no excuse for this no no but can you explain to us why this wasn't brought to your attention i'm not i'm i think in the end i had something like 500 council staff working on

00:36:47 500 council staff working on supporting the families the survivors the bereaved and those affected i don't believe my role

00:36:57 my role was

00:36:57 was to individually and this is not abdicating responsibility for it at all but would individually to intervene my my primary focus here was to make sure the structures the

00:37:08 was to make sure the structures the support

00:37:10 support was being set up and had been set up so that the individual issues could be dealt with that individuals would be given the opportunity for re-housing they get the money the cash and the other support the

00:37:23 money the cash and the other support the the social support that was needed it was not bluntly to do this if it had been raised with me i would have actioned it as a specific action but i would expect that to be done by the relevant teams

00:37:34 the relevant teams doesn't that speak would you not accept to a structural problem because of course contingency arrangements are all about the individual experience of the individual person affected rather than a majority of them

00:37:46 majority of them if i can put it slightly differently the role of the chair or my role at the time

00:37:53 time was a strategic role that means it is about allocation of resource of personnel to address issues and address tasks in hand so it would have been to make sure that the chief

00:38:04 have been to make sure that the chief executive at the time running the humanitarian assistance side of the housing officer had the resource the support the focus that they needed to do their jobs not to do it for them i

00:38:16 to do their jobs not to do it for them i think one of the lessons from the early part was overwhelming the individual who was in the position of gold with lots of information and not allowing them or they not

00:38:27 they not they didn't take a strategic oversight role here as opposed to an operational role and it was one of the things seen in the first few days in my view of the response that's not to abdicate responsibility for it at all but that's

00:38:40 responsibility for it at all but that's to look at it from your point of view yes but to look at it from the point of view of each of these families as i've said it's unacceptable well yeah yes and that's a that's a judgement you can make but but to look at it from their point of view

00:38:53 their point of view what would you say to them in response to the charge well you took over on at lunchtime on the 12th of june but you didn't do any better than nicholas holgate what would you say to them

00:39:04 what would you say to them i would say on the evidence of this case in hammersmith and fulham that's right and i can only apologize to that as i've said only apologize to that family but i honestly believe that we

00:39:15 family but i honestly believe that we did make a difference to a significant number of people over the first 48 hours 72 hours and into the next week and in fact in the next months in trying to alleviate

00:39:26 next months in trying to alleviate frankly what had happened to them and make what was in an early not good response better or is an answer to the question that in fact the london resilience arrangements

00:39:38 fact the london resilience arrangements when it comes to individual experiences are simply unfit for purpose because there's no preset process or machinery which can ensure that experiences like that don't happen i think there are deficiencies in the

00:39:49 i think there are deficiencies in the process in the process in terms of setting and intervening in the first place i think there are deficiencies and there's a lot of learning about the support for communities and i think mark

00:40:00 support for communities and i think mark adamson's

00:40:02 adamson's i believe evidence to the inquiry was absolutely correct and if i can speak personally the city have also undertaken work in this and supported work in this i think is mark sawyer said to you yesterday to specifically look at ways

00:40:15 yesterday to specifically look at ways that we can improve community resilience and give the tools to communities and ourselves to improve that it's one of the many lessons from the grantful tower it's not good enough and can be improved but but i would say

00:40:28 and can be improved but but i would say that the stark thing for me

00:40:31 for me with this entire period

00:40:34 period was the way the community itself stepped up in the absence of the public sector in the absence of the local authority and did many of the things that the local authorities should have done and that was

00:40:45 that was in adversity a positive thing from which we could learn well this is to pre coming out of that answer and this is to pre-figure a topic we'll come to you later this afternoon apologist

00:40:55 apologist but what

00:40:56 but what why was

00:40:57 why was the grandfather experience the seed bed for learning lessons what was it about the grenfell tower fire that meant these lessons suddenly got learned when they hadn't been learned from previous experiences

00:41:09 learned from previous experiences that's a very good i think that is an extremely astute question if i could if i if you don't mind me saying so and i think it was two things the failure of a local authority to understand what was going on in their own patch by

00:41:21 what was going on in their own patch by which i mean they had lost the confidence and support of their local community

00:41:26 community i believe not only during the fire and the immediate aftermath but in advance of that and my experience from talking to some of those bereaved and survivors is that the confidence in that authority had been lost

00:41:37 had been lost before the fire itself what exacerbated everything was the immediate response to the fire and i think we saw that in terms of what happened at the westway center and we saw that in terms of not

00:41:49 center and we saw that in terms of not only the spontaneous giving of time and support but also what happened on the friday and part of the reason for the move from

00:42:01 from rbkc premises to westminster was to try to provide almost a clean start as you've alluded to to the provision of support for survivors because there wasn't the confidence in the public

00:42:12 wasn't the confidence in the public sector at that time let's then turn to the third topic communication uh public communication we've already heard that the london resilience organization and the city had provided

00:42:25 organization and the city had provided communication support to our bkc during the thursday the 15th of june did the position begin to improve as you saw it by the time lleg was formally activated however you

00:42:36 lleg was formally activated however you put it on the 16th of june

00:42:40 i don't think there was um two things i don't think there was sufficient information going to the public either through the west bay centre or to the public itself

00:42:51 public itself the two officers that went across i think assisted with press support at the westway center for the leader of rbkc so i think their role was very much in terms of media rather than

00:43:02 very much in terms of media rather than communication but the communication certainly two survivors bereaved and those affected was was simply not there we ended up i believe on the sunday starting a series maybe the monday starting a series of

00:43:14 maybe the monday starting a series of information sheets to the local area to be distributed at the westway centre and other places that tried to describe support available and so on none of that had been set up as far as i could remember far as i could see

00:43:25 remember far as i could see now let's go to gol50207 please

00:43:30 please email at the top of page one in the string uh

00:43:34 uh robin campbell of westminster to you 16th of june at 12 22. now this uh is obviously before the two o'clock point on that day uh and this is robin c

00:43:45 uh and this is robin c hi john robin campbell here in case you need to get in touch my number is can i take on mobile and then third paragraph i've had a quick update from martin fitzpatrick and the team now he was just

00:43:57 now he was just to interleave this point he was the communications person at rbkc wasn't he yes i believe so yeah there is currently no comms strategy and plan in place that is my priority this lunch time to get

00:44:09 is my priority this lunch time to get one together with adequate resourcing with a particular focus on the weekend and then into next week i've also met the deputy leader and advised we will be putting in a comms plan and resources quickly

00:44:20 quickly i am immediately pulling in additional media and online media support from westminster today so that we can start to get a grip of these channels what was your strategic approach to improving communication with the public

00:44:31 improving communication with the public and specifically with those adversely affected by the fire so i think there are two there are two things playing here one is as i say the written or detailed

00:44:42 as i say the written or detailed information on how to access services and how to get support and the second one was the wider messaging through the media in in terms of what support is being provided again how those support lines and other things

00:44:54 how those support lines and other things worked for people to be able to get that support as well as explaining to the wider public what was going on and who was doing what to support the bereaved and the survivors and the residents and were you able to form a

00:45:06 residents and were you able to form a viewers to the extent of community engagement by our bkc at that point so 12 22 to 2 o'clock on the 16th of june uh

00:45:16 uh i think my impression whether it was specifically at that time or leading up to it

00:45:20 to it was that that was not um frankly not adequate so yes you were able to form a view and it was not adequate can we go to cab402735 please

00:45:33 please now this takes us into the saturday 17th of june

00:45:37 of june this is at 11 a.m this is uh a minute of a ministerial meeting on grenfell tower fire under the rubric of the grenfell tower fire recovery task

00:45:48 the grenfell tower fire recovery task force

00:45:49 force uh in whitehall at 11 o'clock on saturday the 17th of june uh chaired by the prime minister and we can see your attendance at page two if we go to that please by teleconference

00:46:02 we go to that please by teleconference you see that yes together with philip hammond and mark sedwill and if we go to page three fifth bullet point down

00:46:16 uh you can see there's a reference to a meeting with members of the local community that day

00:46:23 day and then it goes on to say the last sentence of that last bullet point there it was important that the government and recovery gold were represented to hear directly from those affected and unanswered questions on the response

00:46:35 unanswered questions on the response now recovery gold is you isn't it uh it's me and the team yes well all right but you're identified in the meeting yes recovery gold and we saw that from page two

00:46:47 saw that from page two um

00:46:48 um now

00:46:50 there is a suggestion in the evidence i won't need to show you but that meeting with the community was then cancelled can you help with that i i in turn i don't recall why yes it was fairly yeah

00:47:01 don't recall why yes it was fairly yeah you know it was yes you know it was you don't know why i can't remember now it appears that the first public meeting with those affected by the fire and the members of the community was on the on the evening of the monday which

00:47:13 the on the evening of the monday which was the 19th of june 2017 where eleanor kelly attended on behalf of llag yeah do you know why the first such public meeting only took place six days after the fire no

00:47:27 i mean did were you concerned about that at the time that there had been no community meeting between the community and those in charge but until then

00:47:39 charge but until then this would be um a significant period of time wouldn't it from the from the wednesday through to the

00:47:46 the through to the monday yes well that's what it is the question i understand that my

00:47:53 my my concern was

00:47:55 was with making sure we had the right person with the community someone who had experience of

00:48:03 of work in this area and people and someone elena kelly who had would have empathy understanding and that's why she was asked to attend

00:48:14 and that's why she was asked to attend the reason why a meeting didn't happen before i do not know the answer would it be something i would expect if the circumstances were suitable by which i mean the community

00:48:26 suitable by which i mean the community would benefit the community would request it then yes we should have held it

00:48:31 it now your logbook well let's look at it gol401675

00:48:36 this is your logbook for the 18th of june the previous day which was the sunday

00:48:41 sunday uh that's the first page of it if we go please to the to page three um mr baradel we can see in it uh that at item 12 11 36

00:48:55 at item 12 11 36 um you

00:48:56 um you are recorded you record yourself for saying you address cobra on calls asking for engineering expertise to assist on site recovery

00:49:06 thirdly we do not know enough about knc community and so is bringing in cbt needs someone to come here with expertise on communities dclg to action this and send it over jb requested

00:49:19 this and send it over jb requested someone this afternoon uh now uh cbt just helped me with that that's the city bridge trust right

00:49:30 what does the city bridge trust do so um city bridge trust is the city of london is the city of london charity um it's one of the largest grant givers to community groups in london

00:49:41 to community groups in london out with the city by the way it provides grantsport there the chair of that is i the chief executive of that is david farnsworth david i believe at the time was chair of london funders which is a

00:49:53 was chair of london funders which is a group of grant giving bodies in london

00:49:56 in london and the community groups we're talking of here

00:49:59 of here is bringing david in to support who would be

00:50:02 would be a active community group within the local community that we could speak to in other words trying to get more understanding of the community group the next piece if i if it's helpful would be expertise on communities here i

00:50:15 would be expertise on communities here i would mean someone who could help with community engagement who's had expertise in that area and asked clg the department to help with that

00:50:25 was there was the request actually made do you know uh i believe it was it says in the action it was that they were they actioned to send someone over uh and did i don't recall if they did i

00:50:37 and did i don't recall if they did i couldn't be firm in the answer of saying yes or no i would expect them to have done i mean your answer prompts another question which is [Music]

00:50:44 [Music] why couldn't rbkc or the tmo provide you with the information you needed about the community about who was in it what they were like who made them up what their

00:50:55 were like who made them up what their needs were i think i think i said earlier i think the confidence of that community had been lost in the local authority and the tmo much earlier and

00:51:06 and for

00:51:07 for trying to understand communities city bridge trust it seemed to me would be able to make very quick contact with local community groups and others would understand the landscape of grant giving for example in those community groups within the

00:51:18 those community groups within the community

00:51:19 community is the point actually here that it's not that you didn't know enough about the knc community because rbkc could have told you everything you needed and no but you didn't know how to handle them no it's absolutely not true

00:51:30 no it's absolutely not true that's absolutely not the case i didn't the the question whether rbkc understood the community i think is self-evident from the response of the community to the grandfather fire

00:51:41 the grandfather fire my interest here was finding routes into the real community within the neighborhood that could be supported and to find roots into that and i believed a route to do that would be through city bridge trust they were

00:51:53 be through city bridge trust they were neutral they'd be trusted they'd have trusted members in the community that could assist we were trying at the time to build trust and confidence in what we were doing to provide support

00:52:05 were doing to provide support that had been lost with the existing authorities i believe in kensington chelsea so was the clue in the name bridge in other words you wanted them to come in essentially to broker a relationship

00:52:16 essentially to broker a relationship it's a very good use of their name yes exactly right so then let's turn to sunday

00:52:23 sunday and the lfb 3061258

00:52:32 uh now this is a an email uh

00:52:36 uh the first email is a very long as a long bcc list as you can see uh uh it's sent to all london local authority chief executives see the press statement made

00:52:47 executives see the press statement made today by the grenfell fire response team and there it is um

00:52:53 um and

00:52:54 and just just to pause there the response team was led by you wasn't it yes and i think it reflected the pan-london response with the assistance of organizations like the brc the british red cross yes and others yes and others

00:53:06 red cross yes and others yes and others yes and also central government yes by this stage now the opening passage says this underneath the bold statement we want to make clear that whilst the

00:53:18 we want to make clear that whilst the emergency and local community response was nothing short of heroic we know that the initial response was simply not good enough on the ground people are angry and rightfully so our focus is now ensuring those affected are being cared

00:53:30 ensuring those affected are being cared for and looked after now um that was your view at the time yes it was if we go then to page two

00:53:41 if we go then to page two and look at the fifth paragraph down

00:53:47 uh under well which is the paragraph under the one mark iii you say

00:53:53 you say what john hetherington says i'm urging any families or individuals who have been affected and who have not come forward or for whatever reason to please come to the westway center so that we can help

00:54:04 so that we can help now

00:54:05 now is it right that at that time there was still a concern that many of those affected by the fire were not accessing the support that was available yes there was some people didn't come forward um that we were aware of

00:54:18 forward um that we were aware of from the list that are being created being pulled together he was still not accessing and hadn't come forward yes and this is of this was 48 hours after you've taken over was there a reason why to take them until sunday evening the

00:54:29 to take them until sunday evening the 18th of june for this message to be issued

00:54:33 issued um

00:54:35 um i'm not sure of the reason why i am i am aware that uh mike michael adamson from the red cross wanted to make sure that he um

00:54:43 he um subscribed to all of the comments being made here that that it was something he was comfortable putting his name towards and and again i would say part of this

00:54:54 i would say part of this is trying to restore trust and confidence and part of the reason people didn't come forward i'm pretty sure was lack of trust and lack of confidence

00:55:05 uh now you mentioned leaflets earlier um i think you would agree that one avenue by which awareness of the support available could be increased was to distribute leaflets to the public yes

00:55:16 distribute leaflets to the public yes um now that was referred to at the ministerial meeting on the 18th of june the sunday we go to cab401302 i think we'll see that

00:55:31 page one

00:55:34 this is cabinet office briefing room so this appears to be a cobra meeting in the strict sense can i just ask you these meetings which you attended or which took place but did you understand

00:55:45 which took place but did you understand them to be credible meetings properly so called

00:55:48 called i think there were either ministerial meetings or officials meetings i think the um my understanding at the time was cobra is a physical location it's shorthand for

00:55:59 shorthand for a government meeting held in whitehall for a significant incident i think the two types ministerial meeting chair by the prime minister or others and the second one an official's meeting

00:56:11 second one an official's meeting self-describes that prompts the question and there's no reason why you should answer this anyway particularly but have you ever have you ever heard or read conops

00:56:19 conops um

00:56:23 so we will explore that with others and now leaflets page one please if you look at item five cabinet office comms working closely with la gold comms to

00:56:34 working closely with la gold comms to finalize leaflet today summarizing key information for local residents is it fair to say that efforts were made to create and distribute leaflets to the community

00:56:42 community and those efforts were being undertaken at this point yeah i believe so yes and i think the red cross were are a task to assist with that yes and their records suggest it wasn't until the tuesday the

00:56:53 suggest it wasn't until the tuesday the 20th of june that the leaflets were actually distributed for the llag-led response would you agree with that i if it's if they're saying so i would not disagree with it i don't know

00:57:05 disagree with it i don't know and do you accept that there were delays in the early days of london gold getting these leaflets out they could they should have gone out quicker yes right was there a problem with those leaflets

00:57:17 was there a problem with those leaflets in the early stages being in english and not in

00:57:20 not in other languages which were perhaps more routinely spoken by the community i think it's a fair i think that's a very fair

00:57:29 very fair question

00:57:31 question that we didn't have and should have had better access to multi-language and multicultural i don't like the word capacity but

00:57:42 i don't like the word capacity but available resource within the structure that was being set up

00:57:47 up i don't think we had sufficient right but is it really about resource or is it just about applying the brain i think i think it's both in other words it i hadn't focused on that i should have focused more on that

00:57:58 have focused more on that but that's you but what about others um i would have hoped they did clearly they didn't right and can you explain why that is um short no if i if i had to speculate

00:58:09 short no if i if i had to speculate which is something i shouldn't do we were we were trying to go from pretty much a standing start as i said to 500 staff working on this in a very short period of time

00:58:21 period of time now i want to turn to the next topic which is the walkway residence

00:58:26 residence otherwise known i think as the finger blocks

00:58:30 blocks we've heard that there were large numbers of residents evacuated from their homes following the fire later on the 14th in excess of 800

00:58:42 in excess of 800 was the care of the walkway residents within the scope of the london local authority gold responsibility at the time it was activated and for this purpose you can

00:58:53 activated and for this purpose you can pick either the evening of the 15th of june or the or 2 o'clock on the 16th i believe the responsibility focused on

00:59:04 i believe the responsibility focused on those affected which would include those on the finger blocks who had to leave their homes

00:59:11 so when you

00:59:13 you used your soft power with hard edges to persuade nicholas holgate to invoke london local authority gold on the evening of the 15th of june did you know that the care of the walkway

00:59:24 know that the care of the walkway residents who had been displaced fell within the scope of the support that at that stage you were contemplating giving i'm not sure i was um if my memory is correct a lot of that

00:59:36 if my memory is correct a lot of that support was being provided by the tmo at the time as opposed to direct by the council that could be mis

00:59:48 what's the word misremembered but no

00:59:52 but no the i believed it was everyone affected not simply those in the tower or in in the block

01:00:02 so leave aside the role of the tmo for the moment

01:00:06 moment what was your understanding about the scope

01:00:09 scope of lleg gold's responsibility did it include care of the walkway residents yes it did yes yes right

01:00:26 then can i just ask you to see something please cab three zero is one four eight two seven

01:00:35 yes uh this is

01:00:39 um this is a document generated by peter talentire

01:00:45 talentire of the cabinet office and

01:00:48 and it's underlying material for the preparation of a a bigger report called let grenfell tower lessons for the central response and there are a number of points

01:00:59 and there are a number of points recorded here by him and uh if i i just want to ask you to please to look at the third paragraph down where it says this unclear and unsatisfactory division of

01:01:10 unclear and unsatisfactory division of responsibility between john baradel for victims in the tower and rbkc for everyone else not clear how this works in practice and whether it added to confusion stroke poor information flow

01:01:21 confusion stroke poor information flow why would this why was this distinction created and by who now um leave aside if you can the fact that this is his view looking back um

01:01:32 um were you aware that there was a distinction in relation to your responsibility between on the one hand those who had been evacuated from the tower itself

01:01:44 been evacuated from the tower itself and those who had been evacuated from the walkways and grenfell house and treadguild house i think there was there was a distinction between the two in terms of nothing else

01:01:55 between the two in terms of nothing else of the needs of the individuals so those who were bereaved or survivors from the tower were clearly in need of different support and those who'd been evacuated from their homes that were still

01:02:07 from their homes that were still standing

01:02:08 standing my

01:02:09 my room if i recall correctly work was being undertaken in the thing in the fingerprints so-called finger blocks in terms of making them where they didn't have heat and water

01:02:20 where they didn't have heat and water for example making them more habitable but the distinction was it's a different the responsibility was absolutely there the needs of the two groups did differ clearly leaving aside the individual needs but the two groups did different

01:02:31 needs but the two groups did different needs well they didn't didn't differ in the very short term did they they all needed emergency economy absolutely and and i believe were offered hotel accommodation or i i don't like the word

01:02:43 accommodation or i i don't like the word temporary but the short-term accommodation needed no i think it's right that some evacuated residents were placed in emergency accommodation others returned to their homes with no hot water and heating

01:02:54 water and heating and those with no hot water i think have been told that they could have a shower at the west way do you remember that i remember reports of that yes and before i believe actually before we before we invoked

01:03:05 actually before we before we invoked them before we took it now were there were their concerns expressed regarding the state of the properties that the residents of the walkway were being asked to return to um there were concerns about the state of the resident of the the flats yes in

01:03:17 of the resident of the the flats yes in terms of certainly to me damage from smoke

01:03:20 smoke damage from the fire and the extinguishing of the fire but also in terms of hot water for an example right

01:03:28 right was there a delay in identifying and addressing the needs of those in the walkways

01:03:33 walkways um i don't that wasn't raised to me they were different needs rather than length of time right were you aware that from the very earliest time of your involvement dave there was a

01:03:45 dave there was a um a division if you like between those in the in the tower and those in the the other buildings surrounding the tower grenfell house tread gold house the walkways there was in terms again of

01:03:57 the walkways there was in terms again of the support that was clearly needed by the different groups and was that was that was a priority accorded to those from the tower i

01:04:07 i yes i believe there was

01:04:11 and when did you observe that first emerging that prioritization i think it was um at the beginning actually when when on the friday

01:04:23 the friday we started doing work on this that there was clearly different needs emerging and therefore a need for different organizations and people to be brought into assisting different things and one was the individual support again for

01:04:36 was the individual support again for those who are bereaved and survivors now if we go to cab402741 please page three we can start with page one because we can see what the document is

01:04:47 can see what the document is this is the ministerial meeting on that day um headed by or chaired by the prime minister

01:04:56 minister you are listed as present uh if you look down the left-hand column three from the bottom recovery gold commander is how you describe that and if we go please to page three

01:05:07 and if we go please to page three and have a look at paragraph seven at the foot of the page the recovery gold highlighted that there were issues with the provision of hot water and gas to a number of affected properties situated within the wide accordance

01:05:18 situated within the wide accordance around 400 households in total the recovery gold raised concerns about the effectiveness of the kensington and chelsea management organization tmo who manage grenfell tower and surround

01:05:29 manage grenfell tower and surround properties in conjunction with the department of communities and local government turn the page please recovery gold was tasked with considering how these concerns could be

01:05:40 considering how these concerns could be addressed it was noted that all such affected households were entitled to hotel accommodation and access to the discretionary fund what were the concerns about the effectiveness of the tmo which led to

01:05:51 effectiveness of the tmo which led to the reference in these minutes

01:05:55 i believe it was twofold one was their ability to fix the hot water and gas issues and make the

01:06:03 the accommodation habitable

01:06:06 habitable and the second one was the confidence again in the tmo in the local area was almost non-existent what was your understanding

01:06:17 what was your understanding of the relationship functionally functional relationship between the between rbkc and the tmo in relation to the emergency response i think the two were

01:06:29 emergency response i think the two were very close together when i went to a meeting i think it was on the friday at 10 o'clock the tmo were present alongside

01:06:38 alongside rb casey

01:06:40 rb casey chaired by nicholas holgate the the tmo were present one of the the first things i did i think was to ask the tmo to not i didn't need the tmo to be part of the next set of arrangements partly

01:06:52 of the next set of arrangements partly because i didn't believe that they had the confidence of the local community and the functions could be better done and better directed by other people

01:07:03 other people if we go back to the foot of page three for a minute you are recorded as having raised concerns about the effectiveness of the tmo what were your concerns in that regard

01:07:14 what were your concerns in that regard their ability to fix the hot water the gas to get the places habitable by the residents to return if they wished and secondly the peace around the support and the confidence of the local

01:07:25 and the confidence of the local community why were you concerned about that ability what had led you to have concerns it still had not been fixed i didn't see that there was a plan for it to be fixed as i recall so did you try to talk to anybody at the

01:07:36 so did you try to talk to anybody at the tma um i didn't the housing group i believe did and that's why it was raised here and indeed i think our specific support was being asked for by city west homes which is the westminster uh

01:07:47 homes which is the westminster uh housing almo

01:07:51 the local management organization um and

01:07:55 and i think i actually asked for military assistance as well to provide some technical support to the design of a system to make the the hot water and the gas work so your

01:08:06 the hot water and the gas work so your concerns is this right a rose out of what you've been told by our bkc's housing department no it was barbara brownlee and the team within the scene within the recovery right the

01:08:17 within the recovery right the grand full recovery task force i see so not not even our bkc's as far as i recall it was barbara's group that raised the concern

01:08:28 group that raised the concern right and you were simply reflecting those concerns without investigating them yourself you have to again it's you know you have a structure you are the strategic leader in that sense you take

01:08:40 strategic leader in that sense you take the advice and the guidance from the teams that are you believe are expert in the field and you take their concerns the appropriate level to try and get them fixed to the appropriate level here was

01:08:49 was at this cobra meeting to make sure that those concerns were raised at the highest level in the country bluntly why why would westminster city council's housing team be any more expert in

01:09:01 housing team be any more expert in fixing hot water and heating and working out the physical problems than the tma buildings i don't know why but they um where they were asked to do it and participate in it when the tmo couldn't

01:09:13 participate in it when the tmo couldn't and again part of this is about trying to demonstrate to the community around around the grantful tower that um

01:09:24 that um people were helping there was a degree of independence and they could have confidence in those organizations delivering something to them and i think this all this does come down to community confidence the community were let down

01:09:36 the community were let down and this was about building confidence back into public services again as much as making sure that things actually got delivered

01:09:44 delivered well let's go to let's go to an email exchange we've seen already i think rbk401923

01:09:55 this is an email exchange on the 20th of june from amanda johnson in rbkc housing with laura johnson copying her in and nicholas holgate on a

01:10:06 copying her in and nicholas holgate on a chain which is below it and if you pick it up

01:10:09 it up uh at the

01:10:13 middle of the paragraph middle of the i'm sorry middle of the page is an email from amanda johnson to barbara brownlee at 12 58 and it says barbara at this morning's meeting you explained that resources

01:10:25 meeting you explained that resources would not be made available to support the tmo in terms of housing management staff the tmo is now struggling to mobilize staff to support people back into their homes i'm clarifying the number of staff that have not attended

01:10:36 number of staff that have not attended work today staff are extremely frightened and the lack of staff will significantly undermine our ability to get people back into their homes accelerating already heightened tensions the london wide response has been

01:10:47 the london wide response has been extremely helpful in supporting our bkc and i'm struggling to see why this cannot be extended to the tmo as there is a direct impact on our tenants and staff safety please can you please raise this with gold

01:10:58 this with gold now um first of all was that problem raised with you not as far as the specifics of it's not as far as i'm aware

01:11:09 i mean to what extent was this a situation where the tmo didn't have enough resources and london gold despite this apparent request did not step in and help

01:11:19 and help if we could see the second part of this it may be helpful in terms of what barbara brown had actually said before this was a reply to yeah do you want to look at your mind that would be helpful yes all right i mean you can

01:11:30 yes all right i mean you can look at the rest of the email chain uh it's the foot of page one over to page two i'm not sure there's much you'll get out of that

01:11:39 but um if we if we go to page two

01:11:45 this starts at on page two relevantly i think with an email from rodriguez at campbell tickell and you may or may not know this who were

01:11:56 were employment consultants to these housing business or industry uh dear barbara and maxine we've had a call from the tmo this morning regarding quite a considerable input of staff resources

01:12:07 considerable input of staff resources that they are requesting some people have not turned up for work today whilst we've been looking at how we might backfill the foremost senior posts at least temporarily it doesn't seem appropriate to be trying to fill all the other resource gaps appearing and we

01:12:18 other resource gaps appearing and we assume that in any case this is best done through the command center and it goes on in that vein about plugging gaps and there's a list of the resource requests below that five housing offices two team leaders and one

01:12:29 housing offices two team leaders and one customer call center team leader and two handlers

01:12:33 handlers that's the context so i would be surprised then if um barbara and the housing team had said they weren't in a position to support seven in total officers supporting the

01:12:45 seven in total officers supporting the tmo that would then allow them to do their work right i would find that very surprising five housing offices across london is not frankly that many beyond that i can't can't assist you was

01:12:56 beyond that i can't can't assist you was this was this problem brought to your attention at all not as far as i'm aware no

01:13:02 do you know whether there was an effort to tell those still within the walkways that they could be rehoused if they wish to be i believe there was because a number of units uh were were identified

01:13:13 number of units uh were were identified from the hotels and as far as i'm far as i recall

01:13:16 i recall those who are in accommodation in hotels were being offered um either i and this phrase i don't particularly like because it has connotations other connotations of temporary accommodation in that sense

01:13:28 temporary accommodation in that sense prior to them going back i believe they were offered that i could be wrong but i believe they were being offered that now

01:13:34 now the fifth topic i want to examine with you and i think i can take this briefly is problems with the distribution of financial assistance would you accept that there was a problem about inconsistency of payments

01:13:45 problem about inconsistency of payments when for example cash ran out at the west way and there were teething problems with with the system set up by central government i believe there certainly were problems in terms of tracking who had received and who hadn't

01:13:58 tracking who had received and who hadn't information to survivors bereaved those affected as to entitlement for the 500 pounds and in the end the 5 000 pounds per household and i believe request went into uh post office and very early on i think

01:14:11 uh post office and very early on i think we asked for dwp support which brought a different set of challenges to us but anyway of additional support to provide the payments right and there was a problem i think in in knowing how much household

01:14:24 think in in knowing how much household had actually received yes again i think that was records yes yes and why did those inconsistencies and and

01:14:31 and problems bedevil the distribution of financial assistance in the days after you've taken over i think we go back again to the records being kept in the records being created here that there

01:14:42 records being created here that there wasn't you know until quite too late as i think we discussed before the break um until we had a a set of records which could be relied upon i don't believe

01:14:54 i don't believe um

01:14:55 um and certainly it was the intent that everyone who presented as a as a person entitled to the 500 or the 5 000 was given that that was the intent that was a strategic

01:15:08 that was the intent that was a strategic intent anyway that would be the case but the delivery was patchy and inconsistent i can i understand that delivery was patchy now having read some of the evidence to the inquiry and can you account for why even on your watch delivery of the cash was

01:15:20 delivery of the cash was patchy and inconsistent um i can't account i'd need to look at the individual circumstances we were very clear in terms of the request going out through the gold group

01:15:32 request going out through the gold group that we chaired that that was the intent and i think there's some records of that in terms of the um the logs and so on that that was clearly the intent being said

01:15:42 said that the money should be easy to access and had been made easy to access and delivered

01:15:49 delivered can i then turn to topic six which is the wrap around support or key workers um

01:15:55 um your

01:15:56 your statement identified one that is one of the primary issues for you when the gold resolution was activated and or when you took over from two o'clock on the 16th now i think it's

01:16:07 two o'clock on the 16th now i think it's right isn't it you'd accept that key workers were an important component of the response yes um was the commitment to provide a key worker for all affected families made directly as a result of the announcement by the prime minister to that effect on

01:16:20 by the prime minister to that effect on friday the 16th uh no it wasn't a result of

01:16:23 of no

01:16:24 no it wasn't it was a thing you would naturally need to do to provide that individual tailored support to the survivors bereaved and those directly affected and you say

01:16:35 and those directly affected and you say it was a natural need was the provision of key workers provided for in the existing london resilience not architecture and not quite in the way that it was implemented here

01:16:46 here so

01:16:47 so right specif being specific um

01:16:51 um yes the the needs of those at grand fall i and i think a few others considered to be um very complex and to get making sure that the right support was made available

01:17:03 support was made available required individuals to be matched with individuals rather like the um the family liaison officers for the police as they provide an individual named individual

01:17:14 named individual this ought to be extended to all of those

01:17:16 those as opposed to simply those who are bereaved right now mr chairman this is not a convenient moment but it's a timely moment um

01:17:25 um looking at the clock well i did wonder but i didn't like to interrupt you but still you've interrupted yourself yes i have so right i think it is time we had a break mr faradel said we'll stop there we'll

01:17:36 faradel said we'll stop there we'll resume please at uh 25 to 4. and again while you're out of the room please don't talk about your evidence that's

01:17:43 that's thank you very much

01:17:53 thank you so much 25 to 4.

01:36:20 would you ask mr baradel to come back in please

01:36:36 alright ready to go on mr veradel i think so yes thank you very much yes right now you'll recall uh that key workers for this purpose were all required to be qualified social workers yes yes yes they were they were the

01:36:48 yes yes yes they were they were the first group asked for yes yes now in the in the light of the sheer volume of of key workers required is it fair to say that there were problems with capacity and consequential delays in allocating a key worker to families i believe there

01:37:00 key worker to families i believe there was yes

01:37:02 was yes and would you also agree uh that where allocation did occur there were at times uh added delays in arranging face-to-face meetings with key workers yes yes and occasionally leading on in instances did you know this to

01:37:14 on in instances did you know this to suicidal ideation no i wasn't overnight we're families from the walkways prioritized in the same way that grenfell tower families were the priority would have been grenfell tower

01:37:27 priority would have been grenfell tower first and then the walkways say they weren't

01:37:30 weren't they were secondary right why was that when it came to key workers i i believe because because of the judgment

01:37:39 judgment um that the key workers should focus first on the residents of the tower the bereaved and the survivors and then the wider

01:37:47 wider community

01:37:48 community right now in in the days that followed the fire your appointment particularly did you become aware of concerns expressed regarding the lack of continuity in the key worker arrangements i think it was raised with

01:38:00 arrangements i think it was raised with me all raised at the gold meetings yes right

01:38:03 right and do you acknowledge just that despite the best of intentions the wraparound support via social workers perhaps in retrospect was not good enough i think they were in some cases it worked very well in others it didn't

01:38:14 it worked very well in others it didn't work at all well i think we had to recognize that in the future

01:38:17 future and do you accept that systematically there was a problem about finding the right skills in local authorities to provide the wraparound support i think it is a particular skill and again one that i would hope we've learned the

01:38:29 that i would hope we've learned the lessons for do you agree with what i've just put to you sorry yeah clearly yes because i think we need to learn the lessons yes and when did you first realize that there was a systemic issue as you describe it was i put it to you and you accepted

01:38:41 was i put it to you and you accepted regarding the availability of key workers with the requisite skill sets i don't recall the exact date i believe we started that the conversation certainly were taking place from the tuesday wednesday of the following week

01:38:53 tuesday wednesday of the following week right so not not really until after some six days after the fire as far as i recall there may have been instances but certainly where it became apparent we needed to increase the volume and be

01:39:05 needed to increase the volume and be clearer in terms of what the skill set should be later on right now can i ask you to look please at molc 6017

01:39:17 this is a transcript of your evidence to the gla oversight committee

01:39:23 on the 23rd of november 2017 so some months after the fire which was examining the response of london resilience to the fire and you can see this this is appendix one to a a larger

01:39:36 this this is appendix one to a a larger document

01:39:37 document uh at page one and if we go please to page 30 in this document

01:39:53 um you can see page 30. we go to page 30.

01:40:16 uh now here you are recorded as saying this in the middle of your screen as i mentioned earlier one of the lessons from this is understanding what

01:40:27 lessons from this is understanding what the phrase key worker actually means to families

01:40:30 families and those affected and also what resource we actually have to ask people to be key workers the pool that we're using within local government tends to be the housing officers who have a particular set of skills or social workers who again have a

01:40:41 or social workers who again have a particular way of working that may not be appropriate to the individuals that they're trying to deal with and then you go on to say this the initial response phase was to try to get someone to work with the families in the hotels to be a point of contact for

01:40:53 the hotels to be a point of contact for them what i believe started to happen and elena kennedy elena kelly may comment because i know you've been speaking to quite a few families around this was that from the responses they were getting the requests that were

01:41:04 were getting the requests that were being made were simply not coming back the information requested or the assistance being asked for was not being provided whether that was the systems were not in place to do that or whether it was the individual did not know how

01:41:15 it was the individual did not know how to access them was part of the learning that was done early on now can you explain why the requests made from those affected were not coming back or weren't were not being provided

01:41:28 if i recall this is this is a a transcript of what was said and

01:41:35 and what i meant by that was that there was some requests that were being made by families or the staff that were not being met

01:41:42 being met and similarly some people did not wish to engage or work with the person who was allocated to them some people didn't want it some people said don't need it some said don't like that person

01:41:53 now i next want to turn to the adequacy of the response and the lessons learned following the fire uh

01:42:01 uh i think to adopt a phrase that has been attributed to you on the evening of the 16th of june this was a moment where local government was as a whole under the microscope do you agree with that i think it was uh

01:42:14 uh let's then turn to the complexity first first

01:42:18 first um if we stick with this document please and turn to page 11 in the sixth paragraph down [Music]

01:42:27 [Music] there's a question from andrew boff

01:42:31 who says uh you were saying the scale was not apparent for a considerable period of time i'm finding that quite difficult to absorb the scale was apparent very early on was it not and then you say

01:42:43 and then you say this

01:42:44 this it was probably loose words and then you continue four lines down in the first 24 hours for example there were four rest centers running with individuals placed in individual rest centers some staying with family and friends some staying in hotels some

01:42:55 friends some staying in hotels some sleeping on floors that is an incredibly complex position to try to bring some order to and some organized support to it was complexity rather than scale now did you recognize at the time

01:43:08 now did you recognize at the time starting with the 14th of june and running through to the 16th of june that it was as you say an incredibly complex situation in the sense you identified there i i think it was yes and you add the complexity uh you go on to say um

01:43:24 if you if you scroll down a little bit further down the page uh andrew both comes back uh with with complexity and then you say underneath that the complexity here though is also

01:43:36 that the complexity here though is also to do with community to do with community infrastructure to do with as barry talked about the scale of the local authority the time of day etc this all played a part in increasing the complexity over time

01:43:49 now do you still hold to that view yes i do

01:43:55 and barry quirk who'd become the chief executive of rbkc by this time is recorded earlier on in this document as saying that it was the worst tragedy in the smallest borough with a smaller

01:44:06 in the smallest borough with a smaller social housing stock is that fair i think that's a very fair comment yes and then if we go to page 12 a question from sean bailey

01:44:17 assembly member towards the top of the page um he says in the second line surely somebody on the ground at your very high level would have known that this would

01:44:28 level would have known that this would have been a very particular case because they were permanently excluded from their homes and then you go on he goes on to say uh

01:44:39 uh uses an example of an unexploded bomb surely someone would have realized that this particular burrow the smallest borough as has been mentioned before is going to have 200 plus families who are permanently needing housing i do not

01:44:51 permanently needing housing i do not understand how the scale the complexity whichever word you use was not perceived almost immediately for me there is a failure there who assesses these things who looks at what the recovery stage is going to look like

01:45:02 going to look like and in response you say this i understand the point of the question the piece for me here is that these events do not happen in isolation on an exercise table in a room somewhere they happen to real communities with real

01:45:14 happen to real communities with real backgrounds and real history and real people's lives being lost for me the complexity increased because we did not appreciate it a distance nor would we the local community the local community

01:45:26 the local community the local community makeup the relationships within that community and how they worked that was not going to be apparent unless we were physically present on the ground and had history in that community i do accept mr boff's

01:45:38 i do accept mr boff's point but scale was the wrong word to use the scale to me was the response scale rather than the scale in the community if you see what i mean and the complexity plays an enormous part in that it's not something unless you're in

01:45:49 that it's not something unless you're in the community you would truly understand what happened here was we began to understand as outsiders the impact on that community over the first 72 hours and it became very evident that it was

01:46:00 and it became very evident that it was far more complex and far more impactful on that community than at first sight from the outside now

01:46:07 now i've shown you quite a lot of that at what point did you first realize the complexities that you referred to as as explained in those two paragraphs that i've just read to you

01:46:21 if i refer down to the bottom if i can of the last sentence you read what what happened here was began to understand in the first 72 hours i think that 72 hours after the fire first occurred i think i

01:46:32 after the fire first occurred i think i spoke earlier to an increasing sense that this was not a normal because it wasn't a normal incident here overlaid with a fire the disruption the loss of life the loss of families um and the

01:46:46 life the loss of families um and the impact on community was far deeper this was a lack of trust over a period of time and i think i'd talk about this later on in the evidence to to the gla that it was clear to me in the end that the trust and confidence of that

01:46:58 the trust and confidence of that community had been lost by the authority months if not years beforehand but was that clear to you before you took over as

01:47:06 as gold uh the the complexity argument here i think yes it was that we had to and i had to understand the impact on community right the loss of trust and confidence in the past wasn't was not

01:47:19 confidence in the past wasn't was not apparent to me till later was it clear to you at the time so 15th perhaps 16th perhaps of june that the complexities as you described them here had defeated rbkc

01:47:30 rbkc i'm not sure defeated but they were they made it extremely difficult for them if not impossible for them to respond to this emergency appropriately and what led you to think

01:47:42 appropriately and what led you to think that as new gold in the role you've now explained it you are going to be able to do better

01:47:49 do better in addressing the complexities as you describe them here i think it was a fresh a fresh set of people with experience of significant disasters if i call it that

01:48:00 significant disasters if i call it that so access to people like eleanor kelly and the other chief execs who could call on their own specialist staff the willingness and the ability to start afresh in terms of approach location

01:48:11 afresh in terms of approach location people that they would see and an openness to understand and to invite in david fonsworth city bridge trust group as an example local community representatives and reaching out

01:48:22 representatives and reaching out to others

01:48:23 to others in the community the local member of parliament for example for them to come in and speak to us for us to be open and to show people what we were doing now um

01:48:33 now um let's go forward in time to january 2018 it's gol50146

01:48:44 this is a report uh authored by written by tom read on marinade january 2018

01:48:53 2018 as an independent peer challenge for the london council's leaders committee 6th of february 2018. uh and if we go please to page two and look at and look at paragraphs one and

01:49:05 look at and look at paragraphs one and two if one can summarize i think this way and tell me if this is wrong that the report has been commissioned in october 2017 by the london council's leaders committee who wanted to obtain an independent view about the

01:49:16 an independent view about the arrangements that underpin london local government's collaborative resilience work in the light of the grenfell tower fire and indeed other events during 2017 yes yes yes and the focus of the work

01:49:28 yes yes yes and the focus of the work was the fitness the purpose of the collective response not individual arrangements i think that's right yes now if we go to page three please page three paragraphs seven five lines

01:49:39 five lines from the bottom under findings

01:49:44 it says there the peer review team do you see peer review team heard from several stakeholders that the grenfell tower fire had undermined confidence in vital elements of london

01:49:55 confidence in vital elements of london local government's collective resilience arrangements many of the recommendations are intended to address these issues and help restore confidence do you agree that the local government's response

01:50:06 response to the grenfell tower fire did reveal weaknesses in in vital elements of the collective resilience arrangements i think it did and it can be in brief can you

01:50:17 and it can be in brief can you be specific i think of your from your own observations from my own observations the um

01:50:24 the um the process of um encouraging a borough to seek assistance and to step aside and say that someone else could help lead a response was one

01:50:35 else could help lead a response was one the second one was the ability to coordinate and navigate through the political and the administrative networks in london and to make sure that they supported a local response

01:50:46 they supported a local response was were the two areas i'd pick on here there were others identified in the report as well indeed and let's look at those briefly page four please we see the recommendations set out in

01:50:58 we see the recommendations set out in this report i don't propose to go through them all in detail but just to pick up one or two um

01:51:04 um you can see recommendations underneath the line

01:51:08 the line and uh if you go um please to page five first of all uh recommendation four is

01:51:18 is um ensure boroughs recognize the importance of community resilience and have clear community engagement and liaison plans in place with strong relationships across each each sector that are well connected to emergency

01:51:29 that are well connected to emergency plans

01:51:30 plans ensure that boroughs understand the impact of incidents both local and other on their communities test the robustness of these plans and arrangements locally with key community and faith groups

01:51:41 with key community and faith groups did you agree with that recognition totally agreed now do you agree that category one responders or did you understand that category one responders have a pre-existing regulatory duty to

01:51:52 pre-existing regulatory duty to coordinate with the voluntary sector yes uh is it fair to say that that should have been done in any event yes in other words the recommendation that is being set out there or ought to have been

01:52:03 set out there or ought to have been something

01:52:04 something obvious

01:52:05 obvious to all

01:52:07 to all i think it's i think there's a difference in my mind between voluntary groups and the voluntary sector and community engagement it presupposes that the communities

01:52:21 it presupposes that the communities express their voice and their concern through voluntary groups i don't think necessarily that's right i think there's a need for us and i think you've heard some degree of evidence from this again

01:52:32 some degree of evidence from this again from mike adamson about the need for building community resilience which means not individuals or via the voluntary sector but street by street and i believe we've saw some of that

01:52:43 and i believe we've saw some of that emerge during the covert the pandemic on the first lockdown where i used the example of local street whatsapp groups and other social media groups that allowed individual streets to help each

01:52:55 allowed individual streets to help each other during what could be described as an emergency and i think that's something that has bluntly changed and needs to change the landscape of resilience

01:53:06 next one recommendation five ensure learning from the experiences of the humanitarian and welfare response in 2017 provided to victims and survivors by reviewing current plans and exercising including the robustness of

01:53:19 exercising including the robustness of the initial response arrangements for longer term response information sharing a consistent approach to case management run of the key worker achieving consistency of service over a prolonged period specialist skills clear well

01:53:31 period specialist skills clear well understood and published arrangements for a standing charity for effective collection and distribution to those affected by tragedies and coordination across agencies now there's a reference there to

01:53:42 now there's a reference there to reviewing current plans we heard about statutory and non-statutory guidance from central government and examined many of these plans and also rbkc's contingency

01:53:53 plans and also rbkc's contingency management plan and its 38 annexes do you agree looking at that great edifice

01:53:59 edifice that there were too many plans too many guides and ultimately a complex and bloated resilience regime if i could answer that by way of saying what was

01:54:10 answer that by way of saying what was missing that might um be more appropriate i don't think that's a yes or no answer i'm sorry in my view there are too few people in local government and some of the

01:54:21 in local government and some of the other sectors as well that are

01:54:24 that are trained ready but more importantly prepared

01:54:28 prepared to step in to assist and to lead and because we don't have enough of them we can end up relying on people who are perhaps less ready less able less trained less capable to do so

01:54:40 trained less capable to do so that's partly the need partly the need for why there are so many different forms of

01:54:46 forms of document not simply to provide the framework and accountability but frankly the guidebook to do something that may not be needed if you have experience training exercising for those functions i'm not

01:54:59 exercising for those functions i'm not sure

01:54:59 sure i hope you can see what i'm trying to get at with that and coming back to a question i asked you before um

01:55:07 um but this time focusing on recommendation five and indeed perhaps the other recommendations as well what was it about grenfell that revealed the weaknesses and deficiencies in the

01:55:18 the weaknesses and deficiencies in the resilient system at least in london which led to recommendation five being necessary

01:55:25 necessary i think there are four areas with this the first one sorry it's going to be a longer answer again the first one is going back to the understanding and involvement of community and i won't repeat that but i

01:55:36 community and i won't repeat that but i think that's very clear the second one is trust and confidence in the public bodies the public bodies that are elected and supposed to serve a local community and should be close to the local community the third one was the piece about

01:55:49 the third one was the piece about information sharing and consistency about information and that i think came out in terms of the understanding of who the residents were who the bereaved were where people were to try and assist and help

01:56:01 to try and assist and help and the fourth one is identified here and it's one i don't think we've touched on yet which is the whole piece here about um standing up and the arrangements for gifts for grants for

01:56:12 arrangements for gifts for grants for coordinating the voluntary effort one of the legacies out from this work was the creation in the center of a specific group of people looking at grant giving and grant

01:56:25 people looking at grant giving and grant collection the second one that was under david farnsworth the second one was the creation of the national emergency trust i will declare an interest i am a trustee of that but as a direct consequence of the confusion and the

01:56:38 consequence of the confusion and the lack of direction and one place to give charitable donations by the public and corporates that organization was set up and is indeed activated during covid that is a positive legacy from this work

01:56:51 that is a positive legacy from this work and one of the things identified in recommendation five

01:56:56 two things play from that first

01:57:00 was it a conclusion from the grenfell experience that it was not easy or uh practical for someone to come in and take charge

01:57:13 i think it demonstrates the opposite i think that the experience i would say was the timing was late and i think i've said this before we should have i should have

01:57:24 this before we should have i should have been

01:57:25 been more robust in my approach and asked others to be more robust

01:57:30 robust but once there i think we set up a system

01:57:33 system with deficiencies in it nothing is perfect but a system that did attempt to put the survivor the bereaved and the community at the center of what was done and try and coordinate the response

01:57:45 and try and coordinate the response across london to make that a better and more targeted centered approach the second thing that that flows from what you've said is is a question

01:57:56 is a question um does the grenfell experience

01:58:00 or did it in your in your experience of it demonstrate that the london resilience arrangements worked uh or was the grenfell response in the

01:58:11 uh or was the grenfell response in the defects in it as a result of those arrangements not working i think the arrangements weren't uh were not sufficient for the circumstances we had

01:58:21 had an

01:58:22 an authority not wishing to ask or receive help not understanding it was beyond its capability and not reaching out accepting it for what the

01:58:31 what the support was i think we've learned from that and i think there has been updates and i think there's a far better understanding from local government now of the need to activate the arrangements themselves and

01:58:43 activate the arrangements themselves and to do that i think that has been addressed right now looking at i'm sorry just kind of just

01:58:50 just invite your comment on this in the event this emergency triggered a response which was outside the scope of the london gold arrangements we've discussed that

01:59:01 arrangements we've discussed that already but it was still a response which depended on mr hullgate's asking you to act do you have any comment on that

01:59:12 do you have any comment on that um

01:59:13 um i would not want to interfere with 1965 local government reorganization in london which makes the boroughs sovereign so and i think as someone else may have

01:59:24 and i think as someone else may have mentioned that that's significant legislative challenge to change the arrangements what i would say is that it if those arrangements are maintained

01:59:35 it if those arrangements are maintained there needs to be a further resolution that goes through councils in my view that makes it explicit that they will invoke the support as required at the moment it is still

01:59:46 as required at the moment it is still voluntary even though it's been improved in terms of advice given and the chief executives i think understanding what their roles are it is still voluntary it is not mandated and i think that's a dif

01:59:58 is not mandated and i think that's a dif if i'm honest from my perspective that's a deficiency in the system so your

02:00:03 so your preference would be for some form of

02:00:10 mandatory uh system which would be triggered by whatever

02:00:16 whatever the councils can agree should trigger it right what you're saying i'm quite often known as being um quite direct and my yes it is exactly what i would say i think otherwise we

02:00:27 what i would say i think otherwise we are left at the behest of individuals making decisions and that isn't good for local communities right thank you now the answer you just given the chairman may be an answer to my next question but if let's see if let's see

02:00:39 question but if let's see if let's see if it is or it isn't if we look please at the foot of page five you can see recommendation nine refreshed the gold resolution and addendum at the earliest opportunity to make triggers and the escalation process

02:00:51 make triggers and the escalation process which is in bold clearer so that there is a clear mandated process we could turn the page a clear

02:00:59 a clear mandated process in the extreme circumstances that demand it using the role of the lap chair and engagement with relevant members of london council's executive to facilitate speed equates intervention quotes in those

02:01:12 equates intervention quotes in those exceptional cases for example when a borough needs help but does not request it

02:01:17 it i think the answer you gave the chairman is an answer to this this question um first do you accept there was a need for gold resolution and an addendum to be refreshed

02:01:26 refreshed perhaps revamped completely i i agree completely with recommendation tonight yes

02:01:34 and in fact do you do you accept that in that that what was missing here was a clear system whereby somebody outside the council could come in with plenary powers derived from the council itself

02:01:46 council itself uh and

02:01:47 uh and i accept a delegation of those powers so as to ensure that it as a category one responder discharged its duties under the statute i i think that's a very good summary of what i attempted to do

02:01:58 summary of what i attempted to do but without a framework to support it without a document that said this is how you do it

02:02:02 you do it there's more than a document without any kind of a legal legal or tactical arrangement i would i'm not sure i agree with that i think as we've said before a local authority that achieves could delegate

02:02:13 authority that achieves could delegate to a person to undertake the powers undertake the functions so i think it's not illegal i think it's a question of having a as it says in the in the recommendation a clarity around the process here now during the peer review

02:02:25 process here now during the peer review that took place after the fire was it the case that well did it include an examination of the role of the mayor of london i don't recall i don't recognize there's a passing reference to it uh in this document of paragraph

02:02:37 it uh in this document of paragraph 11 if we can just look at that

02:02:44 page four please

02:02:49 um you can see there um the the the the peer challenge identified a series of themes outlined in the report in which we've informed the recommendations and one of those was the

02:03:00 recommendations and one of those was the road of the mayor of london can we go please to page 12

02:03:11 and look at paragraph 20 c the role of the mayor of london this is there is widespread understanding of the mayor of london's role as the voice of london and londoners the strategic role

02:03:22 london and londoners the strategic role in relation to civil protection and the leadership of key agencies involved such as police fire and transport there is recognition that the mayor doesn't have an operational role but that but that effective communication is needed

02:03:33 effective communication is needed between the mayor's office and london local government during incident response and recovery as well as continued involvement in planning and exercising

02:03:43 was it your perception at the time that the mayor of london even if it even if it didn't have an operational role should have had one

02:03:55 role should have had one and could have assisted i'm not sure what the operation role would be um if i'm honest the voice of london is a very important point and the ability to talk to um

02:04:06 um wide media and traction he is that i think he has the largest democratic mandate in certainly in the country if not elsewhere so he does have a voice in that sense and i think as i

02:04:17 a voice in that sense and i think as i said at the gla whilst there is no operational role it would have been odd if i hadn't taken into account his comments or his view on things

02:04:28 comments or his view on things yes

02:04:29 yes it has been suggested by the mayor in their written opening submissions in this module that there may be a need for the formal role of the mayor of london in a civil emergency to be expanded in carefully defined circumstances

02:04:43 in your experience was that something which occurred to you at the time in other words that there was a gap which could have been filled by the mayor's office i'd make a distinction between the mayor of political appointment and

02:04:55 political appointment and the officer if i can put it slightly different in the mayor's case a political

02:05:00 political a politician versus an officer i think that there are two distinct areas here the role for the mayor in terms of advocating on behalf of londoners i think is absolutely right

02:05:11 think is absolutely right and indeed the deputy mayor now leads on fire and resilience and chairs the london resilience forum so they do have a clear say in the policy generation but during an incident i don't think it would be appropriate to have a

02:05:22 would be appropriate to have a politician closely involved in operational decisions but by by the mayor i mean the person occupying that um

02:05:31 um office for the time being no i understand but that that would be sadiq khan in the current context if i'm understanding you well i mean because he's the mayor either mayor's office has individuals in

02:05:43 either mayor's office has individuals in it my question was whether or not you you considered at the time that there was a gap which could have been filled by the office um the mayoralty i don't believe so i had good feedback

02:05:56 i don't believe so i had good feedback from david bellamy in the mayor's office and that his chief of staff in that sense of the views of the mayor and observations and information he'd received directly i'm not sure beyond that apart from

02:06:08 i'm not sure beyond that apart from saying

02:06:09 saying uh david or the colleagues would take an operational response would be any different received what the mayor of london said as part of the decision making

02:06:27 and just so i'm clear would you accept or would you reject the suggestion that it would be or may be appropriate for the mayor

02:06:34 the mayor to have the ability to determine whether aspects of the response and recovery from a civil emergency should be left with the local borough or assigned to pan level

02:06:43 pan level executives such as you um

02:06:47 um i think that goes to the heart of the arrangements for local government in london and the sovereignty of the individual boroughs and i wouldn't have a view that's for that's for politicians to decide how

02:06:58 that's for politicians to decide how they

02:06:58 they would want the structure to work it would seem to me to be quite a significant step in

02:07:04 in the authority and power of the mayor over that which is currently there

02:07:10 now i want to show you one last thing if i may uh which is the national preparedness commission's report

02:07:17 report um have you heard of that i have uh

02:07:23 d do do you know that it has let's look at it if we go to inq 30154

02:07:43 and this is the first page of this document

02:07:46 document um written in in march 2022 by bruce mann kathy settle and andy towler and it says it's an independent review do you know who set this up or who's responsible for this document don't

02:07:57 responsible for this document don't actually right uh let's just look at page six

02:08:05 our findings

02:08:12 and then if you look below the pink box it says the lack of development in the resilience field is in sharp contrast to the continuing positive development in other national security fields

02:08:23 other national security fields especially cyber security and counter-terrorism which was warmly commended by many of those we spoke to it is also in sharp contrast to the progress made by a wide range of other countries over that time to build their

02:08:35 countries over that time to build their risk and emergency management systems and then in bold resilience in the uk has suffered strategic neglect as the national audit office has observed the government's operational management

02:08:46 government's operational management capability has changed little over the past ten years government has often operated in a firefighting mode reacting in an unplanned way to problems as they arise and surviving from day to day our

02:08:57 arise and surviving from day to day our evidence suggests that a fundamental shift in capability capacity and resilience may be needed to cope better with future emergency responses now um

02:09:09 was would you agree or disagree that that reflected your own experience uh in the seven days after the fire

02:09:23 it reflects my experience in terms of the

02:09:28 the lack of

02:09:30 lack of the strategic understanding and intent of resilience in the uk by which i mean i think it's a bit of a cinderella actually for local authorities and for central government what i would however say

02:09:42 what i would however say is the support that i personally had and the taskforce had from central government was extremely good from the highest level in terms of support and willingness to offer advice when asked

02:09:54 willingness to offer advice when asked for

02:09:55 for and also support literally people on the ground when asked for as well i think the point around firefighting mode

02:10:03 mode is absolutely right and is demonstrated frankly by the resilience or the lack of resilient structures that you see in various parts of the government machine

02:10:17 yes thank you very much um well um mr barodel i've come to the end of my prepared questions uh there's much more could ask about this document but i'm not going to do that

02:10:27 that so i'm going to ask for the chairman now to take the usual break if i may and see if there are any other questions which i need to ask you or which others wish me to ask

02:10:37 to ask thank you yes well mr marill you probably know that at this stage in the process we have a short break to give council the chance to check these not left anything out and also to allow others who are

02:10:49 and also to allow others who are following the proceedings but not from this room to suggest other questions that perhaps we should put you so we'll the break now i think 20 past four or to give enough time or tips to make it should be yes and if we

02:11:00 tips to make it should be yes and if we i need longer yes we'll say 20 we'll resume it 20 past four and then we'll see if there are any more questions for you then thank you right would you get the usher then please

02:11:18 thank you 24 4 uh unless you tell us that uh you need more time thank you

02:22:12 would you ask mr baradel to come back in please

02:22:24 all right mr baronel well we'll see if any more questions yes mr chairman there are many more questions but i don't think i'm going to ask any of them um they're probably questions we have to ask later um

02:22:36 questions we have to ask later um looking back though there is one looking back on on the events and looking back at the evidence and based on what you now know is there anything in your role that you would have done differently

02:22:47 that you would have done differently i think i've said a couple of times and

02:22:52 and been thinking about this a lot i think i would now be far less reticent in coming forward so i would have been at

02:23:04 been at if i put it this way colloquially if you don't mind in knz's face

02:23:09 face um from the beginning

02:23:13 and not necessarily not trusting what i was being told and wanting to verify myself

02:23:19 myself and is there anything you'd like to add uh to your evidence could i say a few words shaman if you could um

02:23:28 could um first of all to thank the staff at knc actually at kensington chelsea who for the first few days did work very hard individually and collectively to try and help

02:23:41 i think they deserve note and credit for that i'd also like to thank the colleague chief execs from around london who without

02:23:50 without any of them saying no or hesitating step forward when they're asked but overall i'd like to thank um

02:24:00 um some of the affected some bereaved particularly from grenfell united who didn't turn their back on me or colleagues who tried to help but have reached out and

02:24:13 but have reached out and have continued contact and that means more than anything else

02:24:23 yes thank you very much mr baradel i'm very grateful to you for coming to the inquiry today and assisting us with our investigations we're extremely grateful to you so thank you very much indeed and uh of course mr barrett and i'd like

02:24:34 and uh of course mr barrett and i'd like to thank you on behalf of all three members of the panel i think we've learned a lot during the course of the day and it's been very helpful to us to hear what you have to tell us so thank you very much indeed

02:24:45 tell us so thank you very much indeed for coming thank you and you're now free to go thank you

02:25:00 thank you mr millett that is it for the day

02:25:03 day but we shall have another witness tomorrow tomorrow morning we have emma sprague who will be taken by mr keating and then

02:25:08 and then we get to catherine hammond good thank you very much well we'll break there for today then and resume tomorrow at 10 o'clock thank you very much

02:25:24 you