London Local Authority Gold Evidence - Tuesday 17th May 2022 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:28 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing uh today we're going to hear evidence from mr john baradel who assumed the role of london local authority gold a few days after the fire yes yes thank

00:00:41 few days after the fire yes yes thank you mr chairman good morning to you good morning members of the panel i now call mr john baradel please

00:00:54 good morning mr bernal good morning i understand you're going to take the oath that's right there should be a testament on the uh on the best on the desk next to you have you got it there

00:01:03 there i do that's it you take that in your right hand please and read the words on the screen in front of you i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the

00:01:14 the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much do sit down please and make yourself comfortable

00:01:23 right good thank you yes mr miller yes mr chairman thank you mr baradel good morning good morning can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry and helping us with our investigations we are very grateful to

00:01:34 investigations we are very grateful to you uh just a few introductory matters first can i ask you please to keep your voice up so that the transcriber who sits to your right can get done everything you say clearly and cleanly it helps also please not to nod or shake

00:01:46 it helps also please not to nod or shake your head you have to say yes or no as the case may be otherwise it doesn't come out on the transcript we'll be taking breaks during the course of the day morning and afternoon but other than that if you feel you need to take a

00:01:57 that if you feel you need to take a break then we can take a brief break as well thank you um i will be asking you a number of questions based on the documents that we have which will appear on the screen in front of you so

00:02:08 on the screen in front of you so everything i'm asking you about will appear there for you if you'd like me to repeat the question or put the question in a different way then i can do that thank you now um i'd like first of all please to

00:02:20 now um i'd like first of all please to show you your witness statements you've provided two witness statements to the inquiry first please gol50244

00:02:30 is that your first statement of the inquiry date of the 1st of february 2019 yes it is can we go please to page 13 you'll see a signature there is that your signature it is and if we can go

00:02:41 your signature it is and if we can go please next to golf four zeros one seven zero six

00:02:45 zero six we find your second statement dated the third of august 2020 is that your second statement it is can we please go to page 23

00:02:54 23 you'll see a signature there above the date of the third of august is that your signature that is uh and have you read both of these statement statements recently yes i have can you confirm please that their contents are true they are now i'm going

00:03:06 contents are true they are now i'm going to start with your background and your roles um is it right that you are the town clerk and chief executive of the city of london corporation yes i am and i think you've occupied that post since september 2012. that's right and in

00:03:19 september 2012. that's right and in addition you have what is called a lead role is that right in the wider london resilience arrangements yes i do and that includes being the deputy chair of the london resilience forum or lrf yes

00:03:30 the london resilience forum or lrf yes that's right yes and the lrf i think as we've heard from other witnesses sets the strategy and the objectives for the london resilience partnership or the lrp

00:03:41 partnership or the lrp yes that's right yes and that partnership isn't a legal partnership it's a i think is this right an umbrella or overall overarching organization bringing together some 170 underlying

00:03:52 bringing together some 170 underlying organizations yes yes i can't answer the exact number but it is a significant number of organizations yes and they each have specific responsibilities for preparing

00:04:03 specific responsibilities for preparing for and responding to emergencies absolutely now in your first statement we don't need to turn to this uh well let's turn to it and let's look at it it's gol 50244 page 2

00:04:15 50244 page 2 in paragraph 10

00:04:19 but let's go to page 3 is the best place to pick it up page 10 you you explain that the lrf sets the strategy and that includes making plans for london's preparedness in the event of emergencies affecting communities and

00:04:32 of emergencies affecting communities and then you give some examples water shortage flooding due to major incidents with significant loss of life and then you say the forum agrees a number of multi-agency plans directed at identified risks and sets up plan

00:04:45 identified risks and sets up plan platforms for collaboration and then you go on to list those plans paragraph 11 and you you say that they are set out the plans are set out in and

00:04:57 are set out the plans are set out in and let's read it together london resilience partnership multi-agency plans frameworks and protocols which include the strategic coordination protocol recovery management protocol humanitarian assistance framework

00:05:10 humanitarian assistance framework communicating with the public framework and the mass fatalities framework structural collapse framework and the scientific and technical advice cell stack arrangements each of these protocols and plans were

00:05:22 each of these protocols and plans were relevant to the actions undertaken during the relevant period from 14th june 2017 to 20th june 2017. these plans frameworks and protocols are underpinned by the london emergency services liaison

00:05:34 by the london emergency services liaison panel leslp the major incident procedure manual and the joint emergency services interoperability principles jezep and are published and available on the public website of the london resilience

00:05:47 public website of the london resilience website hosted by the greater london authority gla now i read that out to you um in order to give people uh and remind you perhaps of the

00:05:58 and remind you perhaps of the range and complexity of the arrangements underpinning the lrp plans um looking at it a little bit more detail can you confirm for us that the london

00:06:09 confirm for us that the london resilience forum lrf is split up into sector panels it is yes and they could they represent the interests of different sectors yes yes and that includes the lap or local authorities panel yes that's right and i think you

00:06:21 panel yes that's right and i think you um

00:06:22 um were chair of at the time and a still chair uh i was at the time i'm no longer the chair

00:06:29 the chair um right and when did you cease being the chair

00:06:32 the chair i believe about six to eight months ago right

00:06:35 right uh and when did you become chair uh around 2014 i believe uh and if we go on to paragraph 12 of your statement if we scroll down please on page three you say

00:06:47 on page three you say my role as deputy chair of the lrf is directly attributable to the lead role and resilience i perform on behalf of all other london chief executives and by doing so i chair the local authorities panel the role of the panel is and then

00:06:59 panel the role of the panel is and then you set it out first bullet to provide a strategic overview to local authority civil resilience activity and assurance in london second bullet to develop strategy for local authority issues to

00:07:10 strategy for local authority issues to ensure a fully integrated and coordinated approach to pan-london working

00:07:14 working including local authority participation in london resilience partnership activities and then london local authority gold arrangements and then over the page strategic

00:07:25 and then over the page strategic direction to the lap implementation group which we've heard about a steering group for all support funded and provided centrally through the lrg etc

00:07:36 provided centrally through the lrg etc and then central resilience fund strategic issues consideration of reports and communication with other lrf subcommittees and in the last bullet point there to promote a fully

00:07:47 point there to promote a fully integrated and coordinated approach to cross-agency working and to maintain effective interagency communication now um again i show you that in order to perhaps

00:07:58 show you that in order to perhaps demonstrate for everybody the range and complexity of the role that you occupied is that fair it is could i take you back a page sorry just go to page three um if there's something you want there

00:08:09 um if there's something you want there is subsequent to this my signing the statement

00:08:13 statement um in terms of the london resilience partnership i have been asked by the chair to continue to serve as deputy chair despite no longer chairing the local authorities panel thank you

00:08:24 local authorities panel thank you now we understand that in june 2017 david kerry who was rbkc's contingency planning manager was the practitioner advisor to you as chair of the lap is that right yes he was what was the

00:08:36 that right yes he was what was the extent of the engagement that you had with david kerry in that role before the 14th of june 2017. it would only have been at local authority panel meetings the key contact point and advice would

00:08:48 the key contact point and advice would have come from mark sawyer mark sawyer and what was your experience of david kerry and his performance as a practitioner advisor he seemed to me to be quite competent as an

00:08:59 be quite competent as an emergency planning officer and certainly in my view had a an understanding and a leadership role which i believe he fulfilled well of chairing that local

00:09:11 fulfilled well of chairing that local implementation group did you ever see him in action in an emergency not struggling emergency as far as i recall did you ever study closely rbkc's contingency management plan no i wouldn't and there'd be a reason for me to do so as far as i was now you were

00:09:24 to do so as far as i was now you were uh at least a stand at the time i think a standing member of the chief executives of london councils group or celc is that correct it is all 33 chiefs are members of that group yes and i

00:09:36 are members of that group yes and i think am i right in asking you this that the celc is a representative body seeking to promote the interests of london's 33 local authorities among others it is thank you now um am i also

00:09:49 others it is thank you now um am i also right that john o'brien was the chief executive of london councils in june 2017. yes he was and how does the how does that

00:09:59 does that um that role differ from the chief executive of london councils celc so john o'brien was chief exec of the representative body of the councils

00:10:11 representative body of the councils themselves so that was the elected members and the councils as corporate entities

00:10:15 entities the clc is is the body which comprises of the chief executives of each of the london local authorities plus myself as town clerk of the city we meet every month and we discuss

00:10:27 we meet every month and we discuss issues of relevance to the chief executives of london councils right so the celc is is essentially a a council of 33 of the chief ex of the

00:10:38 a a council of 33 of the chief ex of the 33 chief executive correct correct and does it does that and that has a chair does it it does and who is that i can't recall who it was at the time it may have been leslie siri if my memory

00:10:50 may have been leslie siri if my memory is correct right but not john o'brien there's no overlap there no he is a member of selkor attends selk sorry of the another acronym the chief exectors of london councils but i don't believe he was a

00:11:01 he was a a standing member or a chair of selk i could be wrong he may have been a member but certainly didn't share right and just exploring that a little bit more um you've got two bodies it seems you've got the

00:11:12 got the london councils uh and you've got selk and simply being the collection of chief executives of the london councils yes are both of them creations of the

00:11:23 yes are both of them creations of the contingency regime civil contingency regime no they're not of themselves does that explain why there are two of them um i think it's more about the agendas for selk the london the chief

00:11:34 agendas for selk the london the chief executives forum would be specific to chief executives on their executive function london councils as a representative body of the leaders of and other elected members of the individual councils that

00:11:46 members of the individual councils that come together to form policy on multiple areas housing a lot of other areas for an example yes then let's turn next to the role of london local authority gold now am i right in in asking you that

00:11:57 now am i right in in asking you that that stems from an agreement between all 33 london local authorities called the gold resolution it does as amended as amendments and it does because it originated before 2011 and was amended

00:12:09 originated before 2011 and was amended in 2011. that's my understanding right and does that permit a nominated chief executive known i think as llag london local authority gold to commit resources and expenditure on

00:12:20 commit resources and expenditure on behalf of all local authorities in the event of an emergency falling within the the civil contingencies regime and within the construct of the the resolution itself yes and within the construct what do you

00:12:32 and within the construct what do you mean by that that is about the activation process procedure and also the kind of emergencies as declared as to whether then that resolution would be invoked or not we'll get right i think i understand

00:12:44 we'll get right i think i understand we'll explore that in a little bit more detail um

00:12:48 detail um is llag a role recognized or authorized by

00:12:52 by the primary legislation the cca i'm not i'm not sure of the answer to that i believe it's a construct of london local government right

00:13:04 you say a construct of london local government does that mean it has its

00:13:09 its origins or underpinnings in law to the best of your understanding or by arrangement or agreement or practice i believe it's facilitated or allowed for under the local government act but of

00:13:21 under the local government act but of itself

00:13:22 itself the resolution is one that was constructed for london's specific circumstances of 33 33 sovereign local authorities that would come together to be able to respond to

00:13:34 come together to be able to respond to and address a particular emergency and spend cash and spend money and resources of those authorities and to the best of your knowledge do other large connections in the united kingdom have something similar i believe most of the enlarged connotations do not have the

00:13:46 enlarged connotations do not have the structure of london local government they either have unitary authorities responsible for the entire area or county councils again having that responsibility for civil contingency and um

00:13:59 am i right also in thinking that the arrangements being underpinned by the resolution were also underpinned by the london local authorities mou ratified in july 2011. yes there were

00:14:12 ratified in july 2011. yes there were parallel documents in parallel if you will um how would i put this parallel uh documents to support that resolution yes and that would include the ce circular

00:14:23 and that would include the ce circular the chief executive circular yes it would uh and uh

00:14:29 uh that's a yes is it right that you've performed the role of london local authority gold llag in a number of incidents before june 2014

00:14:40 before june 2014 either incidents or i've supported london local authority gold

00:14:47 specific if i can be specific if it would be helpful please so things like the alexander litvinenko incident i was not london local authority gold i was responsible for the delivery of the

00:14:58 was responsible for the delivery of the recovery of that incident for an example that wasn't acting as londoned authority gold

00:15:04 gold was it your understanding in june 2017

00:15:09 that well let me try it slightly differently what was your understanding in june 2017 of the applicability of the gold resolution in an incident where a local authority has not sought the assistance of llag

00:15:22 has not sought the assistance of llag there was no facility for it for an external body or an individual to to invoke the arrangements that was a responsibility and could only be done by the authority

00:15:33 and could only be done by the authority having the incident within their borders

00:15:37 so there was no power is this right for a london local authority goal to intervene unilaterally in in the event of an emergency within a local authority's borders where no request for assistance was made

00:15:49 assistance was made uh by that local authority that is absolutely correct and what about where the incident spilled over into a neighboring borough then the facility again could be invoked but only by by by

00:16:01 again could be invoked but only by by by conversation by um a discussion between authorities it was far more there was far more ability to invoke that resolution if it was across border or pan london than there was if

00:16:13 border or pan london than there was if the the incident happened within a single borough and is it right that as of june 2017 there was no formal recognized trigger or procedure or mechanism for activating

00:16:24 or procedure or mechanism for activating lnag correct and was there any commonly shared understanding among councils about what stage an incident should reach before london goal should be invited to intervene if the incident

00:16:38 invited to intervene if the incident required the establishment of a strategic coordinating group which is i think the inquiries heard before about the at the acronym and what that means then there would be attendance of the on-call london local authority gold or

00:16:50 on-call london local authority gold or their deputy depending on circumstances supported by the london resilience team now would an scg be required

00:17:01 scg be required once a major incident as defined in the early slp for example was declared by any one of the blue light services or any of the category one responders or any category one response

00:17:12 responders or any category one response right

00:17:16 and the attendance at the scg of the duty llag would be presumably is this right in a in a in a capacity of support and

00:17:28 in a in a in a capacity of support and um information gathering but not to take over

00:17:31 over yet correct correct although although if the incident had been multi-borough for an example or when or stand across multiple boroughs the expectation would

00:17:42 multiple boroughs the expectation would be that would be the lead chief executive at that call representing local authorities in the round the arrangements are and the implementation of those arrangements are different if it's more if it spans more

00:17:54 different if it's more if it spans more than one borough

00:17:57 and the lead chief executive representing local authorities in the round would that be the chairman of the celc or it would it be the chief executive of london councils in

00:18:09 chief executive of london councils in that case it would be the chief executive on the rotor of chief executives as london local authority gold that would be a the duty llag correct

00:18:19 correct he would be the person she would be the person who attended those meetings

00:18:24 right i see

00:18:27 but anywhere it was multi-borough correct although if an scg is called it would be good practice for whoever was on call local authority gold to be present as part of the um

00:18:39 present as part of the um the process to understand what was going on in an incident where they may be called later on to support the individual borrowers and is it the case just following on from that that as i think you just explained there was

00:18:50 as i think you just explained there was a rotor where 24 hours a day a nominated chief executive one of the 33 would be on call as a duty llag they would along with a second person who was called the

00:19:02 with a second person who was called the secondary who would be available should there be more than one incident or the primary person would be unavailable sick or whatever yes and i think it's the case as we've heard

00:19:14 and i think it's the case as we've heard from earlier witnesses that in your first year as chief executive you would not be on the rotor typically not unless you had specific experience already gained we have examples of chief executives who've been serving in one

00:19:26 executives who've been serving in one borough and reappeared as the chief executive in another borough later on if they had the experience of training and so on then yes they would be asked to go onto the rotor and in general terms what would be the

00:19:37 and in general terms what would be the role

00:19:39 role of

00:19:39 of as at june 2017 of the duty llag in an emergency such as the grenfell tower fire before before the gold resolution was formally activated tenors of the

00:19:50 was formally activated tenors of the strategic coordinating group to keep a watching it's a horrible term but a watching brief on what was happening to make sure they understood what the situation was on the ground and what likely support may be asked for of

00:20:03 what likely support may be asked for of local authorities across london and would that due to llag attending the scg's in a watching role report to anybody in the llag

00:20:15 in the llag or london chief executive frameworks there isn't the good the practice normally held was that yes there would be information from that person to other interested chief executives including the chair of the

00:20:27 executives including the chair of the local authorities panel that would be simply to make sure individuals were briefed and understood the position again should additional resource or support be needed there was no there was no formality in

00:20:39 there was no there was no formality in that arrangement it was practice that took place and what would happen if the attending duty llag attending an scg meeting perceived that

00:20:51 scg meeting perceived that the relevant little authority uh needed more support or needed to call on mutual age arrangements or needed to invoke llag gold but wasn't doing so

00:21:02 invoke llag gold but wasn't doing so they would i would have expected them to have talked to the local authority panel chief and other chief executives with a view to doing what um to review

00:21:13 with a view to doing what um to review first of all to understanding what was going on to give a view on the reason for that

00:21:17 for that view as it were and thirdly i believe to ensure that they understood the severity of the position and to encourage them to encourage the chief executive to invoke

00:21:28 encourage the chief executive to invoke or to ask for that support right

00:21:31 right so it would be as you say encouragement rather than there was no direction available to anyone this is to speak to colleagues to encourage them that there is support available and please step you know

00:21:42 available and please step you know people are available to step forward to assist

00:21:48 and yes was there an expectation that the chief executive of the relevant borough where the emergency had occurred would would consult with the duty llag before

00:21:59 would consult with the duty llag before activating or considering activating the gold resolution yeah again that would be good practice for clear reasons actually to understand what support would be available how

00:22:10 what support would be available how they'd be able to get that support into the borough to assist them now we're going to come to the activation and the facts surrounding it later in your evidence mr baradel but let me ask you one or two um primordial

00:22:23 let me ask you one or two um primordial questions

00:22:24 questions first was it your understanding at the time that that um the llag once

00:22:30 once the um gold resolution had been activated

00:22:34 activated took over

00:22:35 took over uh or did they merely cooperate with the chief executive of the local authority it is designed to support the chief executive

00:22:44 executive if i can assist to the inquiry with this for clarity so the role of the local government the the local authority gold the london local authority gold was to support but

00:22:56 local authority gold was to support but not take over or run the response in a borough

00:23:00 borough and what by way of analogy if i could if we consider mr holgate nicholas holgate as being the rbkc gold for this if that if the inquiry understand that

00:23:11 if that if the inquiry understand that the term i believe it's been used before the role of london local authority gold with with nicholas holgate would be to be with him to support him in organization understanding resources

00:23:23 organization understanding resources available to advise him as he chaired the gold group meetings of what was available

00:23:29 available that's the role of london london local authority gold with rbkc now breaking that up a little bit you say support and advise

00:23:40 you say support and advise was that

00:23:41 was that i just i want just to try to get an idea of what that really means was that words of encouragement physical presence emotional support strategic support or was it of the

00:23:54 strategic support or was it of the provision of people and money space it would not be the latter until until the person took over the rbkc role

00:24:05 until the person took over the rbkc role as gold it would be about coordination understanding facilities and support available coordinating that into the effort but the chairing of the response would be rbkc gold right now you say in

00:24:18 would be rbkc gold right now you say in that last answer it would not be the latter until the person took over the rbkc role as gold when would that happen uh in this incident to be clear it would be it would happen when asked for

00:24:31 be it would happen when asked for by nicholas holgate right whether or not asked for or imposed leave that on one side for the moment was it the case to your understanding at the time that once llag was activated

00:24:43 llag was activated then

00:24:44 then the

00:24:44 the llag person in this case it was you took over and no longer supported but actually occupied the role of gold previously occupied by nicholas holgate

00:24:55 previously occupied by nicholas holgate absolutely not so what was it it was a specific request by nicholas to chair the rbkc gold meetings not simply to activate london local authority gold within borough when you say take over

00:25:08 within borough when you say take over what is it that llag was to take over on at two o'clock it was chairing rbkc gold and be responsible for the response to the grenfell fire within rbkc so did

00:25:19 to the grenfell fire within rbkc so did you step was it your understanding and perhaps leave the incident aside for a minute was it your understanding that once the llag resolution had been activated and was in practice then the

00:25:31 activated and was in practice then the llag

00:25:32 llag person

00:25:35 stood in the shoes of the chief executive they stood by them not in their shoes and i think it's also important to recognize that these arrangements were never designed for the circumstances of grenfell

00:25:47 circumstances of grenfell where we had a local authority and a chief executive who did not request

00:25:52 request actively request or receive because they had not requested or allowed support to be given

00:26:00 be given this was a unique circumstance but you say in the last answer but one that the role was to chair our bkc gold and be responsible for the response to the grenfell tower fire

00:26:11 grenfell tower fire that's not llag's role that is rbkc gold's role one that i took at two o'clock in the afternoon and that is not framed by any previous agreement that that was in situ

00:26:24 previous agreement that that was in situ at the time this was a direct response to the circumstances of the ground full of fire recovery i just want to get a handle on what's normal in a normal case where llag is is

00:26:35 normal in a normal case where llag is is activated

00:26:37 activated assume it to be at the request of the local authority gold would upon activation would llag continue to provide support standing next to the local authority

00:26:49 standing next to the local authority chief executive or would

00:26:52 or would lnag assume the role and responsibilities of the local authority chief executive in a normal case contemplated by the arrangements as contemplated stand next to not in the

00:27:03 contemplated stand next to not in the shoes of is the best explanation i can give

00:27:07 give they were providing support not running or taking over each of the boroughs is sovereign there's no facility for someone i think apart from government probably to step into a local authority and direct facility simply isn't there

00:27:20 and direct facility simply isn't there to do that right okay and unless sorry unless requested by that local authority and at the stage when life and authority gold is activated in the normal case is it at that stage that's that

00:27:34 is it at that stage that's that llag provides money people and if necessary space on the standing by would include coordination and whatever support would be asked for or needed or recommended by

00:27:47 be asked for or needed or recommended by the person by rbkc gold in this circumstance so your evidence is that even upon activation in the normal case llag gold would be reactive

00:27:58 llag gold would be reactive and would provide or seek to provide whatever support in terms of people money in space that it was asked for i think it would be not reactive it would be proactive in suggesting to

00:28:09 be proactive in suggesting to and providing if you will the more experienced support to the person responsible for the response i think reactive it gives the wrong impression i would expect in that circumstance someone to be offering

00:28:21 circumstance someone to be offering support offering advice on what and how to ask for and also offering advice on what was available from other local authorities to assist in that response and how did that in the normal case

00:28:33 and how did that in the normal case differ from the position before activation it would be the person physically next to within the scg meetings attending the gold meetings and having the ability to

00:28:44 gold meetings and having the ability to stand next to and i mean that literally as well as metaphorically stand next to the person doing that response with that specific responsibility the gold in our case the rbc our bkc gold and what did you

00:28:57 rbc our bkc gold and what did you understand to be the source of llag's powers

00:29:00 powers and authority to act once the lna g resolution was activated it's it's within the resolution itself if we're talking of the stand next to pieces within the resolution that's limited to spending money it's limited to spending

00:29:12 spending money it's limited to spending money and also coordinating the response and helping understand what facilities are available it'll be good practice to do it you would want to offer that support to a colleague who was trying to deal with an incident

00:29:23 deal with an incident so if i can just make sure i've understood all this and once gold resolution is activated the

00:29:31 the lna g would for example attend meetings of the borough gold committee

00:29:41 committee and as you say literally stand or sit next to the chief executive giving him advice and support but not chairing the meeting correct and not taking any decisions as a result of the meeting if

00:29:53 decisions as a result of the meeting if there were decisions to be taken correct so that's the paradigm arrangement is that right that's right hence my comment around standing next to as opposed to in the shoes of

00:30:04 as opposed to in the shoes of quite good and then i'm sure in a moment you're going to be asked what happened in this case but yes on your game yes thank you can we go please then to 14th of june gol50165

00:30:17 and what we have here is an email from matt hogan at 04 38 in the morning of the 14th of june 2017 to chris naylor uh

00:30:25 uh who was the um shortly to be incoming duty lnag from uh

00:30:33 from uh barking and dagenham a copy to you uh declared major incident grenfell town north kensington red category

00:30:40 category and i think this is a standard message isn't it that gets sent by the lacc duty manager who was matt hogan to the next day's duty llag and his or

00:30:51 to the next day's duty llag and his or her deputy yes yes i i'm not sure there's a template but it's the kind of information that would be shared if there was a an incident declared yes yes uh

00:31:01 uh and uh

00:31:03 and uh i think you were as you tell us in your statement first informed of the fire at 0-437 via an email from london resilience which i think we see just below um

00:31:15 um here actually because this comes to you yes

00:31:18 yes while you say 437 it's actually 438 but i don't think any turns on that

00:31:24 and the template if we scroll down comes on the 13th of june if you look at that lower down the screen yes uh dear chris llagy and paul deputy i'm the on-call duty llac manager

00:31:36 deputy i'm the on-call duty llac manager from 9 00 tomorrow if you need to activate please use the following means to contact the duty manager now that must have been a standard mustn't it sorry that that one is yes the the actual informational activation i don't

00:31:47 actual informational activation i don't believe is a standard yes

00:31:50 yes uh

00:31:51 uh now um

00:31:52 now um you were i think informed of the fire but by the top email and as you look at it at the last paragraph you can just see it on your screen it says an scg teleconference has been requested by lfb and will take

00:32:03 been requested by lfb and will take place at oh 500 hours yes yes and we'll see that you are included in subsequent updates on the 14th of june and before we look at these um let me ask you what was your role

00:32:15 um let me ask you what was your role if any um at that moment 4 38 on the 14th of june chair of the local authorities panel right and would it be normal for you to be copied into an alert like this yes it would right i would hope it would yes

00:32:27 would right i would hope it would yes yes

00:32:31 and you would i think as you say be involved frequently in senior level conference calls with chief executives to provide peer support yes if i was available i would do that yeah uh now um the on duty llag that night

00:32:44 uh now um the on duty llag that night was andrew blake herbert who was chief executive of um of the london borough of havering and he was on duty until 9 00 a.m

00:32:51 a.m and i think it's the p is the case that he couldn't attend the first scg at 5 00 am and mark sawyer did so on his behalf you recall that i don't recall but right yeah would seem reasonable to me well is

00:33:03 yeah would seem reasonable to me well is it right that mark sawyer was the chief executive liaison officer yes yes he was for resilience now it is also the case as we've established i think from the material that nicholas holgate was also not at the 5 am scg

00:33:18 holgate was also not at the 5 am scg my question is with the duty lnag and the chief executive of the local authority normally have provided or been present to provide important insight from their own experience about a borough's capability beyond that

00:33:31 about a borough's capability beyond that which mark sawyer could have provided i would have expected them to be able to do if they possibly could to have been on that call yes yes and similarly

00:33:40 similarly nicholas holgate didn't attend the 6 30 scg meeting either which was the next one after the 5 am meeting and would you have expected the chief executive to attended both

00:33:51 chief executive to attended both meetings uh i would yes i would with this with the incident of this magnitude yes i would

00:34:01 and in relation to continuing representation by the nlg lnag at scg meetings we've seen evidence or documents which indicate that mark sawyer and both

00:34:12 sawyer and both the llags

00:34:14 the llags andrew blake herbert and chris naylor did not attend the subsequent scg meetings at 6 30 8 30 1400 and 19 30 on the 14th of june

00:34:25 8 30 1400 and 19 30 on the 14th of june but first were you aware of that i can't say it wasn't it right would it be normal

00:34:31 be normal for um

00:34:32 for um none of those individuals to have attended

00:34:36 attended i am

00:34:37 i am surprised that not one of them attended an scg right now let's go to lfb triple zero six one two one seven please

00:34:54 nfb triple zero six one two one seven this is the five am seg minute and if we gave these two uh

00:35:06 that's it that this is now an email run and if we go to the foot of page one after the minute uh

00:35:13 uh this is an email uh the foot of page one and over to two from toby gould uh who was at lf it was a london fire to nicholas holgate

00:35:24 to nicholas holgate and andrew blake herbert who at that point o744 was still the uncalled utlag with chris naylor also receiving this email he was in coming at

00:35:35 receiving this email he was in coming at 9 00 am copy to david kerry and john hetherington uh and if we go over the page

00:35:42 page i tried to call but appreciate you're very busy

00:35:45 very busy i understand you spoke to matthew hogan from our team earlier this morning and confirmed you were content for kensington and chelsea to participate in the seg meetings stroke tele conferences please let me know if

00:35:56 tele conferences please let me know if that position changes and you feel there would be benefit in london local authority gold participation to lead on any pan london issues i'm not aware of any a present given the scene is contained within kensington and chelsea

00:36:09 contained within kensington and chelsea and then we are standing up people to staff the london local authority coordination center to assist in coordinating local authority support should that be required i understand hammersmith and fulham have already

00:36:20 hammersmith and fulham have already spoken to david kerry with an offer of support

00:36:23 support now was there a view do you recall um

00:36:28 um that because this incident was self-contained within rbkc's boundaries that it was for our ukc to lead and indicate that they would need further support if they felt necessary i think the first part is

00:36:42 necessary i think the first part is clearly yes my expectation would be rbkc would lead the response and absolutely would expect them to need support from other london boroughs it was

00:36:53 it was evident at the time that this was a catastrophe of a scale that an individual borough would i would have expected whichever bar in london would have needed the support of other

00:37:04 would have needed the support of other colleagues in the recovery period if not immediately although i think they would have done immediately certainly in the in the hours and days afterwards now this is of course as i've shown you early in the morning it's that this

00:37:15 early in the morning it's that this email goes at 744 but

00:37:19 744 but even at that point ought there to have been representation by the lag or g's at those scg meetings at that time i would have thought so if they had seen

00:37:31 i would have thought so if they had seen the scale of the incident that was being dealt with you would need to ask them what their availability or presence and where they physically were but i would have expected one of them to attend and sorry and certainly one of their

00:37:43 and sorry and certainly one of their representatives if they weren't able to themselves to attend on their behalf and to be asked what was going on yes and

00:37:52 yes and would it follow from that as you've just said that they would be the benefits of cont continuity of representation uh at a strategic level yes i mean there is clearly always a benefit in having a

00:38:04 is clearly always a benefit in having a team around with resilience in the team yes absolutely

00:38:10 yes and also but also a need and this would have come out i think of some of the earlier exercises such as exercise unified response of a continuity of representation at the

00:38:21 of a continuity of representation at the segs

00:38:23 segs yes i i think continuity is partly provided by the if i can put them as a full-time staff here but again given the scale i would have expected one of them to attend

00:38:33 to attend let's then go to lfb triple zero six one two one seven page one so further up the screen on page one where we could see an email from holgate

00:38:44 where we could see an email from holgate to toby gould at 750 a few minutes later

00:38:49 uh tabi thanks aside from housing needs that may well spill over borough boundaries i do not brackets yet brackets think llag needs to gear up and

00:39:00 brackets think llag needs to gear up and at the top of the chain if you go to the very top of the screen john hetherington to you

00:39:08 to you a copy to john o'brien where he forwards this email good morning john he says just for information we've been in touch with both nicholas holgate chris naylor as oncoming llag and andrew

00:39:20 chris naylor as oncoming llag and andrew blake herbert as off going llag all are content at the moment that rbkc retained the lead at this point the lacc is opening to support k and c should they need mutual aid and we are in contact

00:39:31 need mutual aid and we are in contact with phe and fiona wilcox regarding support to stack and mass facts coordination all boroughs will be made aware but no requests for mutual aid yet or other issues raised by the borough's next scg at 8 30.

00:39:45 and you as you see you're copied in on that chain having having received that email and the emails below it forwarded to you setting out nicholas holgate's view at the time do you do yourself form

00:39:56 view at the time do you do yourself form your own view of whether london local authority gold needed to gear up

00:40:02 this provided a degree of reassurance that in retrospect um was

00:40:08 was badly misplaced actually and that was that the statement all are content at the moment that rbkc retained the lead at this point and then that borough's made aware but no request

00:40:19 that borough's made aware but no request for mutual aid yet or other issues from the borough in retrospect that clearly it was not the case

00:40:26 the case at the time i took some degree of comfort

00:40:29 comfort that

00:40:30 that these individuals had checked and that they were quite content that rbkc kept the lead you say in retrospect what is it that you

00:40:41 retrospect what is it that you found out later that you didn't know at the time

00:40:44 the time looking back now sorry with the with the benefit of hindsight looking now it was clearly not the case that rbkc

00:40:51 that rbkc did not accept it was wrong not to have accepted support at that early stage nor indeed to look for support around the lead this was clearly a significant major incident that required a very

00:41:03 major incident that required a very different level of intervention and support than was evident at or was projected at 8 10 in the morning well i ask again what was it that you learned later that you didn't know at

00:41:14 learned later that you didn't know at that moment that support had been offered and not accepted number one number two that the degree of confidence and

00:41:24 and bluntly ability of those running this in rbkc was not there

00:41:31 now i think it's right just confirmed for me that

00:41:36 that during the morning and early afternoon of the 14th of june 2017 you had no yourself no contact with either of the duty llags or john o'brien or nicholas holgate yes the 14th

00:41:49 holgate yes the 14th i was unfortunately engaged in some work in the corporation of interviewing candidates i see

00:42:00 so um during the course of that day were you involved at all in the response to the grandfield tower fire during the day i don't believe so

00:42:11 fire during the day i don't believe so now right

00:42:13 now right now we know that there was a cross whitehall ministerial meeting at 4pm 1600 hours on that day and our bkc were invited to attend uh

00:42:22 uh we let's go to gol50159 please this is an update

00:42:32 uh from john hetherington at 4 14 26 uh now it's it's sent to chris which is chris naylor from john hetherington good afternoon chris the fire has not

00:42:44 good afternoon chris the fire has not yet been extinguished etc

00:42:47 etc and then there's some details about scgs and then fatalities casualties and then about uh two-thirds

00:42:58 and then about uh two-thirds third of the way down your screen cordless remain in place surrounding the site initial inspections have reported the building is intact rbkc have opened a number of reception centers and a friends and family center for

00:43:10 friends and family center for this looking for people involved in the incident support from lbhf etc and then the last line at present they are managing with demands and assessing the exact need for support and then there's the reference to the cross white hole

00:43:21 the reference to the cross white hole meeting of at 1600 hours which nicholas will be on the call to represent local government uh

00:43:28 uh and it continues in that vein you get this email at 1431 by way of uh chris naylor sending it to you by copy in in his response to john hetherington john

00:43:40 his response to john hetherington john thank you very much appreciated chris uh did you did you see this email at the time it may not have been at 231 i may have been interviewing i don't recall exactly when it was but i was as i say

00:43:51 exactly when it was but i was as i say intervention in the course of that day right now to cut a long story short to some extent it turned out that nicholas holgate was not added to the conference call because of an administrative error

00:44:02 call because of an administrative error so he didn't attend the cross whitehall 1600 hours meeting would it have been beneficial to have him there that in in that

00:44:13 him there that in in that at that meeting absolutely and would it have been beneficial to have had london gold attendance at that meeting yes i believe it would and given the nature and the seriousness of the incident would you have expected uh chris naylor

00:44:26 would you have expected uh chris naylor to have received an invitation to attend that meeting

00:44:31 i don't know whether i would have expected it at the time but self-evidently it would have been of benefit for him to have been on that call right you know he he wasn't at least according

00:44:42 you know he he wasn't at least according to the list of attendees at cab402711 which we don't need to go to but

00:44:48 but would you have expected the cabinet office

00:44:52 office or

00:44:53 or the dclg red to have invited the duty llag to that meeting if they knew that that person existed

00:45:04 if they knew that that person existed which would be a function i think of the resilience in emergencies direct staff at the ministry of housing local government

00:45:12 in other words if they realize that there was someone called the london local authority goal with that remit and expertise and i would have expected them to be invited it would seem self-evident to me they ought to have been right that's a it's a fairly major contingency

00:45:24 that's a it's a fairly major contingency i mean is there any reason why central government whether it's the cabinet office or the lead lead department would not know the existence of something called london local authority gold one would have expected someone to have done

00:45:35 would have expected someone to have done so who was involved in that call well you say one would have expected is that is that delicate and polite i have been called polite in this before i'm i am surprised that they weren't if

00:45:47 i'm i am surprised that they weren't if they weren't aware i'd be very surprised because they should have been aware of the arrangements of the capital city and how it was organized for resilience and emergencies and would you have expected had chris naylor been invited

00:45:58 had chris naylor been invited would you have expected him to have provided a blunt and candid assessment not only of the position on the ground but the capabilities of our bkc in managing the response

00:46:10 managing the response as far as he was aware at the time yes i always find that in these circumstances with this kind of the experience i've had that you have to be clear concise hope i am being this morning and direct

00:46:23 hope i am being this morning and direct in the answers that you give and the information that you provide let's then turn to the 1730 telephone conference with nicholas holgate um can we go to gol401349

00:46:36 we go to gol401349 statement of mark sawyer as you've told us he was the chief executive liaison resilience officer i won't anachronize that um at the time if we go please to page six

00:46:47 if we go please to page six uh paragraph 30 he says this it's quite long let me show you the first half following notification at 0-41 on the 14th of june 2017 my role was to monitor the regional local

00:46:58 was to monitor the regional local authority response on behalf of the local authorities panel and provide support and advice as necessary to john baradel in his capacity as chair of the local authorities panel and other local authority chief executives my initial

00:47:11 authority chief executives my initial action was to review the names of local authority officers included in the initial notification email sent by matthew hogan to ensure the correct people have been included

00:47:22 is that correct first of all as far as i'm aware yes yes uh and then if you go to paragraph 34 on page seven please next page um

00:47:33 we scroll down to the very foot you can see the question question nine foot of page seven

00:47:41 details of communications you had with and then top of page eight

00:47:47 uh and you can then see a list of people uh including uh primary duty lnag before and after nine uh am and and your name there as well

00:47:58 uh am and and your name there as well and then

00:47:59 and then uh

00:48:02 if you uh

00:48:06 uh go down please uh to

00:48:12 uh paragraph 35 well i think we need to go back to paragraph 34.

00:48:27 yes um he says as the day progressed following a conversation with john baradel i was asked to liaise the london resilience group to set up a conference call

00:48:37 call involving nicholas holgate chris nader as llag john o'brien the chief executive of london councils and john baradel john hetherington deputy head london resilience set up the call conference call for 1730 for details of the call

00:48:48 call for 1730 for details of the call and outcomes please see paragraphs 41 42 and 43.

00:48:52 and 43. uh now

00:48:54 uh now do you know what prompted the need for that call at that time if i recollect correctly it was

00:49:04 it was to make sure that nicholas holgate

00:49:09 understood the offers being made to him and to check whether he believed he had the support he needed

00:49:19 now let's um let's look and see what mark saw told us yesterday can we please go to the transcript day 278 page 101.

00:49:37 and if we pick it up at line 18 he's asked by council mr keating you mentioned how concerns emerged in the afternoon can you tell us when that was and what were the nature

00:49:48 when that was and what were the nature of those concerns answer i don't know precise timings question yes answer but i think there were two areas of concern one was the rising media coverage and some of the stories that were starting to be aired

00:49:59 stories that were starting to be aired didn't quite match with uh pretend the page sort of information that we were had received previously in the day and i think john baradel may be able to add more to this but i think he was aware of lots of offers of support and help being

00:50:11 lots of offers of support and help being declined or not being taken up and so really it was just something that needed to happen to just sense check the situation within the borough and something that you know john baradel was chair of the local authorities panel

00:50:22 chair of the local authorities panel would inevitably have wanted to do now um

00:50:26 now um looking at the the lines where he says at three i think he was aware of lots of offers of support and helping declined or not being taken up is that right yes right and was it that that prompt what

00:50:38 right and was it that that prompt what prompted

00:50:43 what was the purpose of that call

00:50:46 at the time to understand the situation as i've said of rbkc and their response and one of the items would have been um checking why some of those offers hadn't

00:50:58 checking why some of those offers hadn't been taken up if i can refer for an example to the city's own position here because i

00:51:04 because i believe my head of emergency planning much earlier in the day had pointed out that we had made the city had made offers to rbkc and there was no note back to me to say those offers had been accepted yes and in what capacity were

00:51:17 accepted yes and in what capacity were you

00:51:18 you attending this meeting was it as peer support or deputy chair of the lap or chair of the local authorities chair of the lap but not not you weren't on the the llag wrote no so

00:51:29 you weren't on the the llag wrote no so your role was what informal uh more informal but um i hate the phrase but i have

00:51:36 have experience of this kind of work in terms of coordinating responses to emergencies and i would wish to have provided support both to

00:51:47 wish to have provided support both to help the london local authority gold and to

00:51:50 to nicholas holgate and offer what support i could to them were you aware at that time when this was set up of the media reports now beginning to come in about the fire and rbkc's response to it um i

00:52:03 the fire and rbkc's response to it um i was away during the day but i think it was certainly the kind of thing that would have been raised with me by mark and others right and to your way of thinking was it becoming ripe now for an llag

00:52:17 becoming ripe now for an llag activation it was surprising to me that offers of support would be turned down by any borough

00:52:26 borough in an incident of this kind and i would have expected a far formal request for support from the leadership on that borough and what was it about the response at

00:52:38 and what was it about the response at that time late afternoon on the 14th that

00:52:45 meant that you expected a more formal request from the leadership frankly the scale of the incident as i've said in the early morning was such that it would be self-evident i would

00:52:57 that it would be self-evident i would have thought it was self-evident to me that you know we would be asking for a lot of support from other boroughs during the course of the next hours or next few days if we now go to gol50155

00:53:10 here we see the invitation email from john hetherington at 1610 and he says that the teleconference has been organized for 1730 today and just before we get to the text

00:53:22 before we get to the text look at the attendees there's nicholas holgate chris naylor you john o'brien john hetherington and mark sawyer uh

00:53:31 uh plus in fact i think eleanor kelly because as she has told us in her statement she was in your office and on the call do you remember her being on there yes i remember you do so in fact seven attendees in all

00:53:43 seven attendees in all and

00:53:43 and you can see the purpose from the top paragraph to discuss the local government ongoing support to the grenfell tower incident the purpose of the call is to understand the likely support that rbkc will

00:53:54 the likely support that rbkc will require and how this can be best supported across local government and in particular strategic support to nicholas secondly to consider the wider implications for rbkc and london and

00:54:05 implications for rbkc and london and what initial actions are required and then you can see the agenda items below that

00:54:14 uh uh but and below the list the gender items significant changes to the situation overview immediate and longer term support requirements for rbkc why do london implications

00:54:25 do london implications uh

00:54:27 uh now did you make any personal notes or logs during this meeting sadly not and by this point would you agree that the incident was sufficiently serious such that senior individuals were

00:54:38 such that senior individuals were conducting this call does that explain why this cast was

00:54:44 was was on the call i think it's evidence of the

00:54:48 the the impact of the event the size of the event and the concern of colleagues as to how they could help and what they could do

00:54:56 could do now you say sadly no no to the meeting was it standard practice not to have a meeting note before formal activation of lneg it would be surprising it would be unusual

00:55:08 would be surprising it would be unusual and i don't know of another circumstance where there hasn't been a document that has said or has noted the fact that the activation would take place and is that because there was no provision for an official logist before

00:55:20 provision for an official logist before activation uh in this circumstance there was not no well there wasn't one but was there a provision

00:55:28 provision what was the provision for a logist one which only took took over once lnag had been invoked um

00:55:37 um i'm not

00:55:39 i'm not bluntly once it's invoked the the gold should have their own logist to do three things really one is to track the information and data that the individual was aware of at the time the second one

00:55:51 was aware of at the time the second one to document the actions that were taken as a result of that data and the third one to make sure that the rationale for that decision had been captured as well so it was very clear sorry it was very

00:56:02 so it was very clear sorry it was very clear as an audit trail of actions taken decisions taken and how they were frankly arrived at now instead we have john hetherington's precede of the meeting which we can go to next it's at

00:56:15 one eight gol50181 we've seen it at other references uh but uh here it is there is an email sent by john hetherington at 1859 on the 14th of june so nicholas holgate chris

00:56:26 14th of june so nicholas holgate chris naylor and you uh

00:56:28 uh john o'brien and mark sawyer

00:56:31 sawyer um good evening a short pracey of the earlier teleconference uh

00:56:37 uh and

00:56:40 did you read this at the time given your other activities i believe i'd finish the activities by that time the interviews i think finished late afternoon if i recall correctly right

00:56:53 and if we pick it up five lines down under the situation update it says rbkc are continuing can you see yes i can rbkc are continuing to support those displays from grenfell tower and vulnerable residents in close

00:57:06 tower and vulnerable residents in close in for close proximity they continue to make contact with all known residents and those believed to be affected by the incident there is capacity within the current rest centers and the westway centre will remain open overnight the

00:57:18 centre will remain open overnight the focus will switch to humanitarian assistance and the specialist local authority support needed there have been numerous offers of support which have been gratefully received at present

00:57:29 been gratefully received at present housing social services and cleaning operations are at sufficient service levels

00:57:36 uh

00:57:39 now um does that accord first with your recommend with your recollection of the situation that was described back to us yes right

00:57:48 yes right would you

00:57:50 would you accept that that represents a relatively positive picture and suggests rather that all is in hand yes i would can you explain why that is the case

00:58:02 can you explain why that is the case does that reflect the conversation it reflects the conversation yes and i think self-evidently that was incorrect right um but the picture being painted it seems to me consistently

00:58:13 it seems to me consistently was that they had sufficient capacities vision expertise ability and frankly activity to support the comment being made here um that they had they

00:58:24 being made here um that they had they were within their capability within their capacity can i just ask you how far had you managed to catch up with unfolding events by let's say

00:58:35 unfolding events by let's say well just before the telecon i i was behind so i think it's fair to say events have clearly been taking place during the 14th rapidly not least in terms of public awareness of and the

00:58:47 terms of public awareness of and the media reporting of the aftermath of the fire well that i'm sure it got going so to speak but i was thinking really i mean we know that the fire really um

00:58:57 really um took hold in the very early hours of the morning

00:59:00 morning and um

00:59:03 and um you obviously with the benefit of hindsight formed the view that this was far too big a disaster for any one borough to cope with on its own and i'm just wondering

00:59:14 and i'm just wondering to what extent by four o'clock in the afternoon you were aware of the extent of the fire and the magnitude of the disaster

00:59:22 disaster i think i was aware of the extent of the fire because of media reports for an example

00:59:27 example but the work taking place in the borough at the time was the re that we were constantly being reassured that they had sufficient resource

00:59:37 resource in situ to be able to deal and to cope with that humanitarian assistance well and the reason for my asking the question as you probably realize is that my next question is

00:59:49 my next question is did you in the sense challenge mr elgate on his view of whether he could cope um no i didn't to the degree i should have done and i think one of the things we'd perhaps get on later

01:00:01 we'd perhaps get on later um is my one regret or one of my regrets if i put it that way was that i accepted at face value what i was being told which is self-evidently wrong yeah all right thank you very much yes

01:00:12 yeah all right thank you very much yes sister yes what flows from that then is why given that the

01:00:17 that the reason or one of the reasons we've seen from mr sawyer's evidence yesterday was for the for the call was the refusal of assistance which was being offered given that he that rbkc

01:00:28 that he that rbkc nicholas holgate was refusing offers and that had caused concern sufficient to have a very senior team meeting about it why were you so accepting of what you were being told in the paragraphs in mr

01:00:40 were being told in the paragraphs in mr hetherington's precede i've just read to you

01:00:44 you i think at the time because i

01:00:48 because i believed kensington and chelsea had a capable set of

01:00:55 set of who understood what to do in circumstances like this that

01:01:00 that there was a degree of reassurance from the technical adviser i think as you mentioned earlier for the local authorities panel being based in kensington and chelsea

01:01:11 based in kensington and chelsea and

01:01:12 and that was patently

01:01:16 wrong what we did do during the call was to

01:01:21 was to if i call it shoehorn i think that probably describes the phrase or describes what happened well officers from southwark who had experienced significant experience of

01:01:32 experienced significant experience of the fire at lacrimal house and a communications team from the city who were clearly needed to make sure that there was that support available to knc

01:01:43 knc as well as mark going across as a technical expert in these

01:01:48 in these arrangements to give a view from within rbkc itself there was it's fair to say rising concern

01:01:57 concern at the end of the 14th about the capability but insufficient at that time to have sadly the direct conversation with nicholas holgate

01:02:09 to invoke to ask for assistance to activate that support into the borough

01:02:19 right

01:02:22 so is it fair to say that from what you could see

01:02:25 could see mr sawyer's concerns and your concerns arising from the refusal of assistance which had prompted the meeting in the first place had been assuaged by what you were being told by mr holgate

01:02:38 you were being told by mr holgate to a degree but if not completely then why

01:02:42 why why do we not see a reflection of skepticism here or is that just because it's a preci i think it's partly because it's a prey scene

01:02:52 scene and i think um you see some degree of skepticism in asking for these individuals to cross into kensington and chelsea and and shoehorn if as i said if i can put it that way in there

01:03:03 i can put it that way in there um

01:03:06 but also i think there was and i think kensington and chelsea are were were a very confident council and they projected

01:03:18 and they projected competence professionalism ability that i think in retrospect clearly was

01:03:26 was not backed up by action or indeed how they behaved in the incident and the aftermath of it and that's a very blunt thing to say but i think in my judgment that i would

01:03:37 but i think in my judgment that i would stand by that judgment now with a benefit of hindsight sorry if i could say of course uh we've seen from the agenda i didn't share it to you but take it from me that it was scheduled to last 15

01:03:48 from me that it was scheduled to last 15 minutes in the in the end can you recall how long i can't recall you say in your statement of paragraph 31 and there's no need to go back to it that the call was an extensive discussion of the various issues facing rbkc

01:04:00 issues facing rbkc um

01:04:01 um looking at this email precis is this a complete

01:04:05 complete or

01:04:06 or relatively reasonably complete record of what was discussed i think it gives the highlights because i i we would have absolutely discussed the lessons learned from lacking or house

01:04:17 lessons learned from lacking or house given that eleanor i believe was on that call and eleanor was the chief executive ellen kelly sorry eleanor was a chief executive

01:04:24 executive at

01:04:28 experience of the things that would be needed and the kind of activity that would be needed by local authority at that time right and if we go back to the agenda we could

01:04:39 and if we go back to the agenda we could pick up the three items on the agenda uh in john hetherington 1609 email can we do that at gaol50155

01:04:49 you could see the three bullet points there and the first one was significant changes to the situation overview and panel london coordination structures in place

01:04:57 place what were the significant changes to the situation overview i think that was what was

01:05:03 was evident from two areas one was the media reporting of the west bay centre and the other rest centres that have been set up and their situation as it were with the giving

01:05:15 situation as it were with the giving by the public in a very public spirited way

01:05:19 way of

01:05:20 of goods

01:05:21 goods for people who were directly who were survivors or bereaved in the fire and secondly um i think the position as outlined by the officers who

01:05:34 position as outlined by the officers who particularly john heathery to mark sawyer who were at that call and what were the

01:05:39 were the what was discussed in relation to the pan london coordination structures i don't recall the specifics of that you'd need to look back at the notes if you could and i could prob maybe it may prompt memory if you can put back the

01:05:50 prompt memory if you can put back the notes of that meeting and the second note well let's do that let's go back to the previous document then which is the preci

01:05:58 preci uh which is a gol 50181

01:06:02 50181 can you tell us what in that was the discussion about the panhellenic coordination structures so i think it's a final paragraph in under the heading of immediate and longer term support right so london

01:06:14 longer term support right so london resilience would work particularly around the right sorry to ensure the right support to humanitarian assistance and recovery going forward and then there's a subsequent note if we get back to the agenda page one uh

01:06:25 if we get back to the agenda page one uh gol 155 650 155 second agenda item was immediate and longer term support requirements for rbk and c nicholas holgate what was mr holgate's position

01:06:36 holgate what was mr holgate's position in terms of the support that he felt rbkc required at that time if i recall correctly it was still we are we are a comfortable capable and we don't you

01:06:47 comfortable capable and we don't you know we are able to run this we don't need specific support at this time there were no requests for support as far as i recall at that meeting again you need to refer me back to the note of the meeting but i don't believe there was any

01:06:58 but i don't believe there was any specific support requested offered and shoehorned but not necessarily requested now chris naylor has given us a statement he was the duty llag who was on this call

01:07:11 on this call gol401603 please if we can go in it to page 7 paragraph

01:07:17 paragraph 15

01:07:24 the long paragraph if we pick it up uh at the fourth line down the meeting the meeting received a verbal situation

01:07:35 the meeting received a verbal situation update from nicholas holgate and lrf colleagues this included details of the mutual aid that had been offered and received and concluded with a view that housing cleansing and social service support were all operating at sufficient

01:07:47 support were all operating at sufficient levels

01:07:49 levels and it goes on in addition to this a number of questions and lines of inquiry were pursued as follows i asked about the capacity of the rbkc communications and community engagement teams it was clear that there was a significant media

01:08:01 clear that there was a significant media interest in the incident just pausing there does that accord with your recollection it does yes and hence sorry and hence the offer of city of london communication staff to assist

01:08:11 assist yes i see

01:08:13 yes i see and it goes on there was also a risk of community tension as a result of this discussion nicholas agreed to the offer of additional support from the corporation of london is that correct that's right similar questions we're

01:08:24 that's right similar questions we're asked about support for rbkc's political leadership particularly those on the front line of community engagement media queries and relations with whitehall just just pausing there is does that accord with your recollection again it

01:08:35 accord with your recollection again it does from the second sentence but subsequent sentence would allude to that specialist support from southwark was also offered and accepted again does that does that according to you it does yes yeah the meeting also

01:08:47 you it does yes yeah the meeting also agreed with that mark sawyer lrf would visit our bkc the following morning quotes to detail out the support and provide initial support regarding structures needs and experience of previous events close quotes

01:08:59 previous events close quotes again

01:09:00 again does that accord with your recollection it

01:09:04 it does but i believe the mark sawyer offer um was in a subsequent conversation not part of that call if my record my recollection may be

01:09:15 call if my record my recollection may be wrong with this but i thought that was sub second call took place immediately after the first one

01:09:22 the offer was made for those for those reasons anyway uh he then goes on i took this to me that mark would critically appraise the sufficiency of resources in place to address the points we'd raised

01:09:33 address the points we'd raised particularly in relation to temporary housing cleansing social workers communications and cohesion now that was his understanding of what mark sawyer was intending was it yours it was and

01:09:44 was intending was it yours it was and also if i could say about the the structures and

01:09:48 and structures are very important in emergencies because they provide a framework within within which people can request ask direct without the structures being

01:09:59 structures being sensible and robust the likelihood of a response being frankly adequate is diminished significantly so part of mark's role was to provide assurance of

01:10:10 mark's role was to provide assurance of the structures being put in place and if you will the frameworks and i think you've seen a number of those earlier on described that those frameworks were being implemented in a way that allowed the response to be robust coherent and

01:10:22 the response to be robust coherent and frankly good was it the case as nicholas holgate has told us in his evidence on day 273 of page 118 that the activation of london local authority

01:10:33 activation of london local authority gold lurk to underneath the conversation i'm not sure what he means by that um but asking mark in the subsequent call to go in and nicholas accepting it may

01:10:45 to go in and nicholas accepting it may be construed as um he ought to be considering this move and engage in sorry and indeed having chris naylor who was the the london or local authority goal on the telephone call may have

01:10:56 goal on the telephone call may have undoubtedly given the impression to nicholas that this is something you should be considering yes i don't remember if it was specifically mentioned in the call i have to say no i mean what i mean was it as it were the

01:11:07 mean what i mean was it as it were the elephant in the room in other words an active but unspoken consideration i think the process over that afternoon and subsequently on the next day

01:11:17 next day was to encourage softly maybe too softly nicholas to nicholas holgate to invoke the london local authority gold arrangements to get the

01:11:28 authority gold arrangements to get the support to stand next to him in what was clearly becoming a complex and difficult

01:11:36 difficult recovery yes i mean it's the it's the position isn't it that if you were not satisfied with his answers to your questions then you could have invoked london i can invoke nothing

01:11:48 invoke nothing i have no power no ability to invoke it he has to do that himself and i think part of what you have seen in in the previous evidence that that's been presented here today is the reassurance being given it is

01:12:01 is the reassurance being given it is fine it is adequate i don't need this support

01:12:05 support i don't i may receive it but i don't need to bring it in to support me it is running well that would imply sorry that would imply to me that the invocation of london local authority gold which has to be

01:12:17 local authority gold which has to be done by him was very unlikely let me put let me show you what he told us day 273 please page 118

01:12:32 and on that page at line 18 after the reference to lurking he says i mean if if i had either changed my mind by then or if the answers to the

01:12:43 by then or if the answers to the questions had been insufficiently encouraging then i think i would have expected and they would have been well within their rights to say quotes we think you should invoke london gold now that's what he told us was that

01:12:55 now that's what he told us was that correct in other words you could have said if you had concerns about his answers that he should invoke london gold

01:13:04 gold yes we could have said that any of his colleagues could have said that i don't recall whether we did or whether we didn't

01:13:10 didn't do you accept that you might have given him the impression that you had been reassured by what he was telling you such that there was no need for him to invoke london gold

01:13:22 to invoke london gold i'd be surprised given the nature of the call with the attendees that were there individuals being asked or being shoehorned in to go into kensington and chelsea that he would have got the

01:13:33 chelsea that he would have got the impression that we were encouraging in terms of how the response was going it would be counter it would be counterintuitive to believe that to be the case given what was going on outside of that call

01:13:45 what was going on outside of that call in terms of media public response and so on

01:13:48 on do you agree that nobody at that point in or at the end of the call envisaged that an escalation in the response being provided by rbkc would happen

01:14:01 the escalation would come about if there was a recognition that improvements could be made and that additional resource could be put in yes but nobody to your is to my recollection though

01:14:12 to your is to my recollection though that wasn't thank you and then let's go to the post telephone conference emails please

01:14:26 mr chairman while i'm on this this this will take a moment may take five minutes or so to cover um i'm in your hands whether we do it now let me try and cover it in five minutes if we can get on here we get on

01:14:38 minutes if we can get on here we get on now um we've read the praise here gol gol50181 can we just go back to that please

01:14:48 you will see in it in under the heading immediate and longer term support and the second paragraph as it were it says if requested by the leader of rbkc

01:14:59 says if requested by the leader of rbkc london councils may make an approach to political leaders across london to provide political support to our bkc but it was recognized this is a small network of people able to access this capacity and a delicate subject what was

01:15:11 capacity and a delicate subject what was that about um

01:15:14 um if i recall correctly this was about support from other leaders in london to the then leader of the royal borough of kensington and chelsea yes but what

01:15:25 chelsea yes but what who were the political leaders and what was the political support being discussed this is a summary you'd have to ask mr hetherington for the precise wording my

01:15:36 hetherington for the precise wording my my recollection of that call was we did discuss um how the leader of the council was um and london councils being the representative body of the leaders of

01:15:48 representative body of the leaders of the councils themselves would be the place to ask for support to that leader it would not be something offered by chief executives if anybody that way that would be for politicians to support other politicians

01:15:59 other politicians um it is a small network of people undoubtedly and it would be a delicate subject of asking one political leader to support another political leader as an officer i think it has to be

01:16:10 an officer i think it has to be recognized there are two very different types of individual here one political one officer which have very different loci and to ask a politician to support another politician for that politician

01:16:21 another politician for that politician to receive that support in a positive way would be a delicate subject to raise why was it delicate um because if you were a political leader my

01:16:32 if you were a political leader my experiences that an officer telling you you needed political support would not be something that would necessarily go down

01:16:38 down well or indeed necessarily be supported or accepted without a delicacy in approach

01:16:44 approach can i just thought have you had experience of this happening in on previous occasions

01:16:52 no i haven't i have in subsequent occasions but not before this personal experience before this well well if you've had experience subsequently you may still be able to answer the next question which is

01:17:03 question which is what form does this political support expect it to take it my expectation would be another political leader in a similar in a other borough in london

01:17:14 borough in london would be uh speaking to the leader of royal barricans and chelsea and encouraging them um providing support to them standing next to them if i can put it again that way to give them the support that they would

01:17:26 to give them the support that they would undoubtedly need in coping or dealing with an incident like grenfell but not in a public way not exactly not in a public way that would be almost certainly refused rapidly by the

01:17:37 certainly refused rapidly by the individual concerned yes thank you so thank you so it was was the problem which was so delicate the difficulty with one political leader of one political party political stripe being

01:17:49 political party political stripe being seen to support a political leader of another party political stripe you would need to ask the politicians that my impression would be it would be

01:18:00 impression would be it would be presumptive to ask one politician from one party to support another politician from a different party the better solution would be the same party bluntly they're more likely i

01:18:12 same party bluntly they're more likely i would suggest to accept the support in the manner within which it would be offered yeah but i'm asking sort of to board about it but i'm asking you who was on the call was the topic

01:18:23 was the topic that was so difficult the topic of asking one political leader of one party to support a political leader of another was that the problem i think it was more if again if i recall

01:18:36 i think it was more if again if i recall it my normal way of dealing with this would be we would need to identify a conservative leader to support a conservative leader would seem to be the way to approach this and of course it would be delicate in making sure that

01:18:47 it would be delicate in making sure that was raised we need to do that in a delicate fashion not to suggest to someone that they need support

01:18:56 and was one aspect of the difficulty at that time

01:19:00 that time being precise late afternoon on the 14th a perception growing perhaps that rbkc was not simply responsible for the art for organizing the response to the emergency but involved

01:19:13 response to the emergency but involved in its cause was that a perception at the time um leaving aside this particular statement it was a perception and was a concern because clearly the community

01:19:25 because clearly the community reaction i'm sure will come back to this later

01:19:28 later was such that there was clearly or beginning to be clear evidence to me that the community had lost confidence in the council mr german is that a convenient moment

01:19:40 mr german is that a convenient moment we're we are rather in the middle of the aftermath of this discussion but it's a convenience is it convenient to you i thought you might have some more questions but it probably is a good time to stop anyway

01:19:51 to stop anyway yes yes exactly mr varadel we have a break during the morning and this is apparently the best time to take him so we'll stop there we'll resume please at 25 to 12

01:20:01 25 to 12 and i have to ask you while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it thank you all right thank you very much would you give the usher please

01:20:19 thank you mr minute 25 to 12 please

01:37:12 yes would you ask mr baradel to come back in please thank you

01:37:26 ready to carry on yes indeed thank you very much yes thank you mr chairman can we then go back to the statement of chris

01:37:33 chris zero is one naylor zero three paragraph eleven on page five

01:37:39 uh and in the second bullet point he says i sent a text message to john at 1806 asking if he was available to take a call he replied at 20 30 saying he would call when free

01:37:50 would call when free and then he says after 2051 we had a short phone conversation to discuss the outcome of the 1730 conference call see paragraph 15 below i asked john in his capacity as deputy

01:38:01 asked john in his capacity as deputy chair of lrf whether he felt there was more i could or should be doing to support nicholas and the response in rbkc his view was that my advice in the 1730 meeting had been clear and that nicholas

01:38:13 meeting had been clear and that nicholas had acted upon it he also confirmed the further engagement of llag either in the form of asking for direct support from the duty llag or more widely was at the discretion of rbkc and that unless or

01:38:25 discretion of rbkc and that unless or until the stance of rbkc changed i should remain on standby but does that accurately reflect the gist of the conversation that uh occurred between you at that time if i recall correctly yes yes it does

01:38:39 if i recall correctly yes yes it does yes

01:38:40 yes and and uh if we go please to page six of this statement to look at paragraph 13 halfway down that paragraph it's a long paragraph he says

01:38:51 he says and you can pick the words up on the right hand side of the block of text my particular concern do you see that yes i do my particular concern was about the scale of risk in relation to community tension and rbkc's ability to

01:39:03 community tension and rbkc's ability to respond to engage and support the wider community of north kensington and beyond their grief but also their sense of disconnection and anger this felt systemic and not something that a normal emergency response would be geared up to

01:39:15 emergency response would be geared up to manage and support it was not clear one way or the other whether rbkc fully appreciated this risk but i took some assurance from the fact that this would be a line-up inquiry pursued by mark sawyer the next morning see paragraph 15

01:39:28 sawyer the next morning see paragraph 15 below and then as a result of this work a further conversation would take place the next day now

01:39:34 now that was his concern uh and he's expect he's exp explained it there did you share that concern yourself

01:39:43 yourself yes i did

01:39:44 yes i did yes i did was it discussed between was it discussed on the caller nicholas holgate i believe

01:39:52 i believe i cannot say yes or no i can't recall do you remember what your response was to nicholas to chris naylor's question during this call that he's referring to

01:40:06 during this call that he's referring to when he asked whether he could or should be doing more to support nicholas holgate and the response at rbkc you know what you said i can't but it would have been

01:40:17 have been i would expect it to have been um he made the offer of support to nicholas at the time and that would be what i'd expect him to do and as it says remain on standby and await

01:40:28 says remain on standby and await what we would hope would happen

01:40:32 and the is this right that asking for direct support from the duty at nnag or more widely was at the discretion of nicholas holgar absolutely at the discretion of nicholas

01:40:43 nicholas and was it the case that the role of mark sawyer for the next morning was or at least involved an assessment of the sufficiency of resources available to our bkc and the adequacy of

01:40:55 available to our bkc and the adequacy of their response in general terms yes and i think as i said before the break would also have been the processes and procedures put in place to make sure that that response was structured in a way that would give

01:41:06 was structured in a way that would give the best result it could and was mark sawyer's deployment to rbkc the next morning in anticipation of the potential activation of london gold

01:41:19 i think the hope would be that that support would be provided on the activation of london local authority gold i think it was evident on the 14th in the afternoon that this

01:41:32 on the 14th in the afternoon that this would be needed at some point and i think we saw that earlier on yes i mean can we put it this way uh but mark sawyer's the plan to deploy mark soy the next morning into our bkc was a measure is

01:41:45 morning into our bkc was a measure is this fair of your skepticism uh at uh nicholas holgate's response to your questions during the 15 the 1730 call i think that's a fair summary right

01:41:56 right then let's turn into the 15th of june can we please go to your

01:42:03 your first statement uh

01:42:06 uh your first statement please at paragraph 31 on page nine

01:42:11 um uh you say following extensive discussion of the various issues facing our bkc on this call it was agreed that both elena kelly chief executive of the london

01:42:23 kelly chief executive of the london borough of southwark and i would provide peer support to mr holgate given that at this stage london little authority gold activation had not been requested by rbkc

01:42:34 uh now that is that right it would be peer support yes yes now there's no reference of peer support in the heatherington preci and none recalled by mark sawyer in his

01:42:46 and none recalled by mark sawyer in his statement

01:42:47 statement um are you quite sure that uh an offer of peer support was made yet

01:42:52 yet i'm pretty certain it was it would be a natural thing to do to offer support to a colleague chief executive sorry particularly given eleanor's experience with lackadale and

01:43:03 eleanor's experience with lackadale and the lack of fire and how was it envisaged that peer support would be provided on the end of a telephone the ability to be contacted should there be anything

01:43:14 be contacted should there be anything not understood or that general piece around i'm feeling tired i'm feeling exhausted can you please provide me with some support that would be that would be my meaning of peer support in this context

01:43:27 meaning of peer support in this context now before the five o'clock 14th of june teleconference that we've examined already is it right that you or ella kelly didn't have any contact with nicholas holgate you've had

01:43:38 contact with nicholas holgate you've had not as far as i remember now and the peer support you've just referred to was effectively non-existent up to that point he was on his own um yes yes as far as i'm aware yes he was right but

01:43:49 as far as i'm aware yes he was right but i am aware that a number of chief executives had contacted nicholas to offer support to him

01:43:55 him in the period from the fire itself at basically one o'clock in the morning through the five o'clock when this call took place and we've seen we've seen the nailer statement where naylor recalls that there was

01:44:07 naylor recalls that there was were some forms of support which had been accepted but also i think you'll recall maybe that the humanitarian assistance had been offered and provided by um by london borough of

01:44:18 and provided by um by london borough of hammersmith and fulham some some support have been given yes is my understanding yes

01:44:22 yes now um

01:44:23 now um on the 15th of june as you confirm your second statement is this right you don't recall carrying out any actions directly relating to the incident before the five o'clock meeting that day that's my recollection

01:44:35 that's my recollection and before that meeting five o'clock on the 15th of june you didn't speak to or you don't recall speaking either to chris naylor or to the mayor of london or his chief of staff david bellamy or

01:44:48 or his chief of staff david bellamy or indeed anyone from central government is that right that's my recollection although there may have been contact slightly before five o'clock with some of those individuals it's possible right i don't

01:45:00 individuals it's possible right i don't recall the detail sorry leaving that on one side

01:45:04 one side then the shortly before five o'clock exception why didn't you make any contact with the duty laag the mayor's office or central government

01:45:17 i don't recall directly the reason why i think my expectation would have been mark was on site assisting kensington and chelsea and that i would have got updates from

01:45:28 and that i would have got updates from marcus to where and what stage they were in what state they were in at the time did you

01:45:34 did you i received an update around about five o'clock prior to that meeting i would have done yes but nothing from the morning till not in my recollection there

01:45:43 there and was it the case that you were aware of the concerns being expressed in the media during that day and during the course of that day um

01:45:50 um and from those who were deployed to rbkc uh the first yes i was aware of the increasing media concern if i can put it that way

01:46:00 and if we go to your first statement please then at page nine where we're on and go to

01:46:06 and go to uh

01:46:07 uh paragraph 34 right at the bottom you say at 1700 on the 15th june 2017 i joined a conference call with with mr holgate elena kelly and mark sawyer who was with nicholas holgate at kensington

01:46:19 was with nicholas holgate at kensington town hall i requested this meeting this call due to the increasing concerns being aired through national media and information received from deborah collins ms scott and mark sawyer

01:46:31 collins ms scott and mark sawyer now

01:46:34 what information specifically had you received from those named individuals can you recall so my recollection from mark was a concern about the

01:46:45 concern about the the manner within which that the the arrangements were being implemented by kensington and chelsea um and if i recall correctly that was the number of people involved in the calls and the um

01:46:57 calls and the um the lack of strategic direction that was taking place at kensington and chelsea i don't remember the specifics from the two southwest officers let's go

01:47:06 let's go further on in your no it's your second statement forgive me gol401706 second statement please page 12 paragraph 67

01:47:18 paragraph 67 where you say there on the afternoon of the 15th july 2017 i received updates on the status of the response being provided by the royal borough of kensington and chelsea through monitoring national media and

01:47:30 through monitoring national media and information received from deborah collins ms scott and mark sawyer although i have no written record of these updates from my recollection it indicated that the royal borough of kensington and chelsea were finding the

01:47:41 kensington and chelsea were finding the complexity and scale of the response challenging and as a result they asked mark sawyer to suggest to nicholas holgate that he convened a conference call um that's right is it yes yes uh and um then if we go please to

01:47:54 uh and um then if we go please to um

01:47:55 um uh nichola uh to the sawyer statement please jol401349

01:48:05 page 11 paragraph 54 very briefly he says there page 11 paragraph 54 however in my opinion i did not believe

01:48:16 however in my opinion i did not believe that nicholas holgate had complete awareness of the scale and complexity of what the royal borough of kensington and chelsea were being asked to deal with with a lack of full situational awareness across the senior management

01:48:27 awareness across the senior management team

01:48:28 team and he goes on to say they hadn't been galvanized as an organization now

01:48:35 now let's also look then at gol401301

01:48:44 this is a an email sent by mark sawyer to himself on the 1st of july 2017 as a a note to self uh and his initial observations uh and uh if you look at the bottom of

01:48:57 uh and uh if you look at the bottom of the screen the penultimate entry it says due to continuing concerns on grip arranged conference call on evening at a prox 530 mid call nick left room to

01:49:09 at a prox 530 mid call nick left room to speak to someone outside now

01:49:12 now i've shown you two parts of mr sawyer's evidence

01:49:16 evidence um was this what was being relayed back to you before that afternoon call namely that nicholas holgate did not have so far as mr sawyer could tell complete

01:49:27 so far as mr sawyer could tell complete awareness of the scale and complexity of what rbkc was being asked to deal with lack of full situation awareness a situational awareness and concerns about grip

01:49:37 grip that in my recollection is the substance of what he reported back yes let's then turn to the call and we can pick this up uh

01:49:47 uh at paragraph 76 of mr sawyer's statement jol401349 page 15. we've just looked at that

01:50:02 and

01:50:07 this is where he suggests the call and he says in the second sentence the intention was to allow nicholas holgate the opportunity to discuss the status of the response and any additional support the royal borough of kensington and

01:50:18 the royal borough of kensington and chelsea may require so is that correct that mark sawyer had suggested this call himself i i don't recall but it would be perfectly reasonable for him to do so

01:50:29 perfectly reasonable for him to do so right it wasn't your suggestion uh i can't recall right so was it the position

01:50:34 position just before the 1700 telephone conversation on the 15th of june that you had formed a view about the ability of rbkc to cope with the humanitarian response and the need for

01:50:47 humanitarian response and the need for additional assistance

01:50:50 i think that's a fair summary um and i think that was composed of as i think i've said a couple of elements to it one would have been the feedback which i i'm pretty sure i had from mark before five o'clock actually um on his

01:51:03 before five o'clock actually um on his uh impressions of what was going on in knc

01:51:06 knc and secondly from the media in general reporting around at the time and had you formed a view that

01:51:13 that activation of the gold resolution was desirable

01:51:16 desirable before that call i think i'd partly formed that view on the 14th actually in the afternoon notwithstanding what you were told on the

01:51:27 the five o'clock call on that day on that day yes as i as i said i think the the scale and the impact of the grenfell tower of fire was such that it

01:51:40 grenfell tower of fire was such that it it will be counterintuitive not to seek and ask the support of an experienced person or people to stand next to the decision maker at the time it would make utter sense to me that you

01:51:52 it would make utter sense to me that you would want to have i would want to have regardless of experience someone next to me to be able to assist me to check my logic to challenge me on the right decisions that were being taken it would

01:52:04 decisions that were being taken it would just seem sensible if nothing else to ask for that no

01:52:09 no sorry to be clear because there is no ability to insist on doing so on invoking the arrangements because each of the boroughs are sovereign entities themselves they have

01:52:22 sovereign entities themselves they have the authority they have the legal power themselves i think increasingly my view

01:52:30 my view developed over that time to the 15th that

01:52:36 that we needed to be a little more proactive and insistent that advice and support was given to knc but that would require um

01:52:45 um being blunter than is my usual way as i think comes across i'm quite measured in terms of what i say and i needed to be a little more blunt and again one of my regrets is i wasn't

01:52:57 and again one of my regrets is i wasn't now you weren't the duty llag in what capacity were you caught um attending the meeting if not london local authority sorry the the local authority panel chair

01:53:10 authority panel chair and frankly i think i think to some degree i took it up on myself to make sure this work was being done a sense of responsibility um

01:53:19 um a local government responsibility i suppose on trying to make sure that the response was better than was being seen and what was the formal status of the lap chair at such a meeting i don't believe there actually

01:53:31 meeting i don't believe there actually was a formal status we can see that it was it was soft power i'm sorry mr miller it was soft power being used if i can put it that way the degree of encouragement that could be

01:53:42 degree of encouragement that could be provided to people to do the right thing right why was chris naylor who was the primary duty lag uh not invited to the meeting on the 15th i don't recall a particular

01:53:54 on the 15th i don't recall a particular reason

01:53:56 reason no um it was an important call yes can you explain why there was no agenda for it

01:54:03 for it no i can't explain can you explain why there was no minute or log or note of that meeting no i can't

01:54:11 you can't i think confirm the length of the time of the call not from my recollection would you accept that those features indicated poor practice

01:54:22 indicated poor practice uh i yes i do i think in retrospect i would have made a note a contemporaneous note of them yes that's absolutely right

01:54:34 yes that's absolutely right now do you know what either you or mr sawyer said to mr holgate at the beginning of the meeting about why the meeting was being i don't recall

01:54:43 recall do you remember what he said at the beginning of the meeting i don't recall do you remember what advice you gave to mr holgate during the meeting i don't recall specifics i called it a meeting it was a call

01:54:54 i called it a meeting it was a call clearly yeah um can we go please to your first statement please page 10 paragraph 35

01:55:05 and you say in paragraph 35 it was during this call that it became clear to me that further support was needed

01:55:14 needed and how did that become clear to you i think from the response again of

01:55:23 again of mr holgate and the

01:55:26 and the clear feedback now during the call from mark sawyer that was evident that there was not and i don't like the phrase but i think it does summarize it in general terms grip being shown

01:55:39 in general terms grip being shown by nicholas holgame and by further support did you envisage the activation of the london gold resolution yes

01:55:46 yes and what aspect specifically did you identify at that time from the call but or perhaps from outside the call that rbkc needed additional support with

01:55:59 i think the feedback from from mark um [Music]

01:56:04 [Music] was a clear part of that the lack of structure the size of the meetings involvement if i recall correctly

01:56:12 correctly of members of the council of councillors in some of the meetings and

01:56:20 and secondly

01:56:21 secondly the support again that was being offered but not grabbed by both hands led me to think this clearly needed a change of direction in leadership

01:56:34 change of direction in leadership and the only mechanism available would have been the invocation of london local authority gold and to give very clear

01:56:44 soft direction you can't direct let's be very clear there is no power of direction it is soft direction it is standing by and encouraging and really helping the individual to understand the priorities what needs to

01:56:56 understand the priorities what needs to be done what resources are available there is no there is no mechanism to do it apart from that um until two o'clock when um

01:57:05 when um other events took place which i'm sure mr will come on to yes um during the call do you recall was nicholas holgate initially reluctant to accept additional support from um london

01:57:16 accept additional support from um london local authority gold i don't think it was great i don't recall specifically but i my impression throughout this was until indeed the afternoon of the

01:57:27 was until indeed the afternoon of the 16th that there wasn't an understanding of the severity of the problem or the need for additional support significant additional support at a senior level

01:57:39 senior level nicholas holgate says in his statement it's paragraph 38 at page seven we don't need to go to it he says it was my decision he says to invoke london gold in a phone

01:57:50 invoke london gold in a phone conversation with john baradel and others on the evening of 15th june that that's what he says in his statement is that correct it was his decision how he arrived at that decision is a different matter i suspect right that's

01:58:03 different matter i suspect right that's that's really the point um although he made the decision was he

01:58:12 solely responsible for it or was he assisted to arrive at that decision i think the second is right he was assisted too i think as i said um

01:58:23 assisted too i think as i said um earlier

01:58:25 earlier the need for the activation was growing in my mind the degree of confidence was decreasing in my mind and the two i think go together

01:58:36 together and my recollection is that the

01:58:40 the participants on that call were quite clear that this would be a good thing to do and the advice was do it in far stronger terms than had been the case before

01:58:52 the case before can you recall what was it what was the trigger

01:58:56 trigger point for him arriving at that decision you would have to ask him why he changed his mind

01:59:04 his mind i can't i mean i can't recall a specific part of that that suddenly he went from not invoking to suddenly invoking i can't remember a specific point you would need to ask him so you don't

01:59:15 would need to ask him so you don't recall a specific damage moment in time no a damascene no no not another damascene correct moment well let's look at his statement uh uh please page eight paragraph 39 this is rbk3035426

01:59:34 and he says there

01:59:41 paragraph 39 there is no formal procedure for handover to london gold but i was clear that the others on the phone call had also reached the view that kensington and chelsea should no longer lead on these responsibilities

01:59:55 longer lead on these responsibilities now he refers there to handover and leading

01:59:59 leading but from from what you could see leave aside the leave aside the implications of those words for the moment was it clear to you on the call

02:00:09 that those on the call together had reached the view that knc should

02:00:14 should invoke llag

02:00:19 yes i think it was very clear but i i really would want to say the language used here is incorrect when you invoke london local authority gold it is not transfer of

02:00:30 gold it is not transfer of responsibility in that sense as i said i think a few times to try and make sure the inquiry understands it it is standing next to it's not standing in the shoes of the individual so the language used about handover to london

02:00:43 language used about handover to london gold i think is incorrect and i think incorrect as well leading responsibilities are still kensington and chelsea's and that was the case until shortly before two

02:00:54 the case until shortly before two o'clock on the next day they were still responsible they directed the resource they received hopefully advice under london local authority gold arrangements but the responsibility was still there well then

02:01:06 well then in light of that answer and in light of the language that we can see that uh

02:01:11 uh mr holger uses here was it to your recollection and in your mind at the time was it clear to him that this wasn't a handover

02:01:23 that this wasn't a handover and that if he invoked lleg gold okay and he should continue leading

02:01:29 leading i

02:01:30 i don't believe so because of the circumstances on the next day at lunchtime which again i'm sure will come to

02:01:36 to would lead me to think that he did understand that this was not a takeover it was supporting and indeed i think some of the documentation later is arriving to support and it's certainly language i

02:01:48 support and it's certainly language i use on the next day um supporting nicholas holgate he was not taking over and running kensington and chelsea no that's the next day what i'm really interested in is that the time up to

02:01:59 interested in is that the time up to this point to your recollection from what you could observe did nicholas holgate think up to this point in time that by invoking london local authority gold he

02:02:12 invoking london local authority gold he was surrendering leadership of the response to the fire to llag

02:02:19 to llag i think there are two i'm i'm not trying to be difficult i think there are two parts that one is responsibility in the sense of legal responsibility and the second one is what the impression given would be

02:02:30 what the impression given would be um and i think my my um over one of my

02:02:36 one of my trains of thought during the previous days

02:02:39 days was that some of the behaviors that i saw in terms of refusing advice um not accepting mutual aid support from other boroughs was more about how knc would be

02:02:52 was more about how knc would be perceived by others rather than a cold logic view about what was needed and i think the language used here gives an indication of the mindset

02:03:04 here gives an indication of the mindset that nicholas holgate had on that evening so the perception was activating would rick would give control to someone else out with kensington and chelsea

02:03:15 kensington and chelsea and that's what this language would seem to me to be implying so just to be clear about that you thought at the time that although he understood that it wasn't surrender

02:03:26 understood that it wasn't surrender he was concerned not to activate lag because it would be seen as such i think that you you could separate the two with respect

02:03:34 respect i think the activation of llng i believe would be perceived or he perceived as being

02:03:42 let me use the word failure frankly in response

02:03:46 response and even if it was about handover responsibility or even if it was invoking for support i believe the feeling was and it is evidenced i believe through para 39 that

02:03:57 evidenced i believe through para 39 that this will be perceived as failure yes my my question really is did it

02:04:02 did it was it obvious to you did it occur to you at the time that the reason for his not invoking nnag up to the conversation on them

02:04:12 on them the 15th of june at 1700 was because of the perception of surrender

02:04:17 surrender i believe that yes

02:04:20 yes at the time of this i believe that right that was partly part of the reason why he didn't invoke it yes now was the decision that i think you accept and he has said

02:04:30 has said was made

02:04:31 was made during that call to invoke the gold resolution conditional on later decisions or was it a once and for all decision which which had been made if my recollection's

02:04:42 had been made if my recollection's correct on that call he didn't and i may be incorrect with this and and you may be able to assist me but i think there were two calls that evening one was the call at five o'clock and i

02:04:53 was the call at five o'clock and i believe there was one literally subsequent to that very soon afterwards when he formally invoked it but i may be maybe incorrect right

02:05:02 right uh

02:05:03 uh let's

02:05:07 let's look then after 17 or 1700 hours at the next thing that happened uh if you gave please do your first statement at paragraph 36

02:05:18 statement at paragraph 36 page 10.

02:05:22 you say that i had a call shortly afterwards with john o'brien chief executive of london councils and ellen kelly chief executive of london borough of southwark who was with me in the room it was on this call that

02:05:33 the room it was on this call that eleanor kelly and i set out our concerns to john o'brien following a series a further series of calls nicholas holgate requested my support and i therefore arranged to attend kensington town hall

02:05:44 arranged to attend kensington town hall on the morning of the 16th of june 2017. now just pausing there what was what was the purpose in contacting john o'brien with elena kelly after the 1700 call

02:05:55 call the five o'clock call if i recall correctly that the the piece that the issue here was a reluctance um to invoke on that five o'clock call

02:06:06 to invoke on that five o'clock call and for that to be done would require kensington nicholas holgate to request the activation of london local authority gold

02:06:15 gold and you say that sorry that that would then require me because i believe that to be the right course of action to gain support from john o'brien and london councils

02:06:26 london councils to apply what pressure they could to encourage kensington and chelsea to invoke it to invoke the resolution and that's why there were two sets of calls one

02:06:37 calls one the five o'clock call which was the update if you will from the staff on scene at the at kensington and chelsea there was no invocation or call for invocation by nicholas

02:06:48 or call for invocation by nicholas holgate at that meeting and that's why i would have telephoned john o'brien with elena kelly to seek support to encourage again through other means other people rowing in to support the invocation of

02:07:00 rowing in to support the invocation of that call afterwards subsequent to those calls

02:07:03 calls he invoked it so the decision to invoke a legion gold was not made on the 1700 call correct hence my recollection of two calls right but he says it was i think he is

02:07:16 right but he says it was i think he is mistaken right so did it work this way call with him and others at 1700

02:07:22 at 1700 discussion then there was a second call the kelly the o'brien kelly call shortly after that and then a further call when the decision was made that's my recollection i see um now that some

02:07:34 my recollection i see um now that some uh

02:07:38 look at paragraph 36 a little bit more closely you say it was on this call that's the second call that i set out our concerns to john o'brien what were your concerns that

02:07:49 that there was not a request for the invocation of london local authority gold and the feedback from the officers from southwark my recollection of those i don't have but certainly the feedback from mark sawyer on the state of play

02:08:02 from mark sawyer on the state of play if you will the structures behaviors what he observed at meetings and so on that i think you heard yesterday from mr sawyer and those were concerns that i had and

02:08:13 and those were concerns that i had and what was the outcome of your teleconference with john o'brien uh he john as far as i recall agreed to support us in changing the changing the the response from nicholas whole game

02:08:26 uh support you in changing the response leaning on him um encouraging one tries not to lean i think it's semantics i think leaning is probably not a bad word to use

02:08:39 probably not a bad word to use so soft power with a slightly harder edge yeah

02:08:43 edge yeah now let's go then to your statement please page 10 paragraph 36 where we see you say um uh that nicholas following a further series of calls

02:08:54 following a further series of calls nicholas holgate requested my support and that when you arranged to go to kensington so it looks as if as i think you've confirmed it was only after that third call that the decision to activate

02:09:05 call that the decision to activate london gold was actually taken yes indeed i i believe yes nicholas changed his nicholas holgate changed his view and did activate afterwards yes right so on can you remember that third call we

02:09:17 on can you remember that third call we have we have no record of that call

02:09:20 call no documents i can't i mean no who was on that call was it just you and him i can't recall actually it would have been a call to me since i arranged to go to

02:09:32 a call to me since i arranged to go to kensingtonville the next day right and what did you say to him uh thank you very much we'll be there to help next morning no what did you say to him at the beginning of the call did you tell him you'd had a private call with

02:09:43 tell him you'd had a private call with elena kelly and john o'brien i don't i don't recall i don't recall right at the beginning of the call was there still reluctance in in some penumbral form from

02:09:56 in in some penumbral form from mr holgate to the invocation of london local authority gold i don't i don't recall again i i think i was more relieved that he'd um

02:10:07 um agreed to do it bluntly

02:10:12 right

02:10:15 was there any discussion in that call or indeed on the on on uh the first caller 1700 of the various factors

02:10:24 factors um that he's told us about such as the resident's anger blaming the council for the fire

02:10:28 the fire and the perceived need as he put it to deflect that belief from affecting the council's work with survivors

02:10:36 one of the concerns if i recall correctly that was raised was the

02:10:43 was the support being given to the brief survivors and the other residents affected

02:10:51 and the focus of this work always had to be and always should be and as someone's put it to me the moral compass here

02:11:03 compass here should be for those affected

02:11:06 affected not about

02:11:07 not about any other consideration and i think the most concerning thing that i was hearing back on that day was that did not seem to be the case that the focus because you would ask for

02:11:20 that the focus because you would ask for the support you would get from specialists in the field hadn't been asked for at the time and that was concerning to the point of i was going to call it a tipping point

02:11:32 i was going to call it a tipping point but almost a tipping point in as you put it soft power with a harder edge

02:11:43 you refer there to the moral compass should be for those affected not about any other consideration yeah was it your perception at the time that the wrong question was being asked

02:11:56 that the wrong question was being asked viz what is the system as opposed to what do they need

02:12:06 the question coming from whom from

02:12:09 from nicholas holgate

02:12:14 i believe that

02:12:16 that nicholas

02:12:18 nicholas holgate had not

02:12:22 not the

02:12:24 the understanding of the arrangements and the focus that was needed on the rest center and the experience from the survivors and the bereaved in

02:12:35 from the survivors and the bereaved in the days following the fire and the first focus should always be there

02:12:40 there and i didn't feel it was evidenced by the actions that were not taking place as seen by mark sawyer even 48 hours after the fire

02:12:53 and again the the

02:12:57 media reporting of the experience of survivors and the bereaved would clearly lead me to that conclusion

02:13:09 then let's go to uh

02:13:12 uh john hetherington's statement lfb triple zero 61158 page 24.

02:13:21 he has evidence to give and has given it on this topic page 24

02:13:27 page 24 please paragraph 76 and he says

02:13:34 at 76 at 1839 i had a telephone discussion with mark sawyer who explained the rationale for the intended lleg activation and that it was likely to take place the next day friday the 16th

02:13:47 take place the next day friday the 16th after further assessment and with a form of handover between rbkc and the llag [Music]

02:13:55 [Music] now

02:13:56 now is he right that the um

02:14:01 um activation of llhe would only take place after a further assessment

02:14:10 no um

02:14:12 um i think

02:14:14 i think it's in the second part of that sentence that's quite important to look at and and that's in terms of a form of handover between rbkc and the london local authority gold and that's the degree of assessment i

02:14:25 and that's the degree of assessment i think the first part is about activate it would take place the next day fine

02:14:34 fine the further assessment and with the form of handover is the one at two o'clock uh i'm not trying to understand that just so just break it up right first of all

02:14:45 so just break it up right first of all um

02:14:46 um had the decision been made i think you said yes

02:14:49 said yes but was activation conditional in any way on the further assessment to take place the next day no so so

02:14:57 so so can you account for why mark saw for why mr hetherington appears to have been under the impression that a further assessment was necessary i think the assessment was to do with the handover

02:15:07 handover and we've been to that point about the responsibility that the rbkc gold responsibility being different in the shoes of as opposed to being by the side of

02:15:19 the side of the activation for london local authority gold was to provide the support as i think i've covered before as opposed to take the responsibility for the response well he says in the second line it was likely to take place

02:15:31 second line it was likely to take place the next day after further assessment is that correct what was what was likely about it as opposed to certain you would honestly have to ask him my under my understanding at the time

02:15:43 understanding at the time and my activity if you will was that i had the london local authority gold had been activated on the 15th standing by the shoes of but there was a difference between that and stepping

02:15:55 difference between that and stepping into the role of being responsible for the response on the 16th so the assessment was for what

02:16:02 what standing in the shoes off taking over in that sense right so your evidence is is is this and correct me if i'm wrong in summarizing it in this way but that the decision to to

02:16:13 this way but that the decision to to activate llag gold had been taken it was going to take place the next day there was going to be a further assessment but that wasn't about a handover that was about the

02:16:24 about the the form of support to be given you could put it that way yes well i have is that a fair way yes i think it's fair that's rather different though isn't it from what mr heatherington says here yes can you explain why there is that

02:16:36 can you explain why there is that difference and we may have that may there have been a misunderstanding between you and him it's possible and i'm not sure i discussed it he discussed it with mark sawyer wasn't direct cop wasn't direct

02:16:47 sawyer wasn't direct cop wasn't direct with me

02:16:48 with me i have to say you know again i have to say this is um extremely unusual set of circumstances where one would go in and take over the responsibility of another chief executive in their own borough for responding to an incident on their

02:16:59 responding to an incident on their borough

02:17:01 borough i think it was self-evident to me at the time that this required a higher degree of intervention than london local authority gold

02:17:10 are you talking about intervention that doesn't sound terribly supportive um it's supportive but you intervene to take responsibility don't you correct

02:17:22 correct well we can argue about that let's get back to the facts five gol50158 please scroll to the bottom of page one email from charlie parker

02:17:32 parker westminster to you and elena kelly at 9 42 p.m now charlie parker wasn't on the call or any of the calls was he no he says both just wanted to say well done for getting

02:17:43 wanted to say well done for getting nicholas to agree to london resilience help i've tried to get him to recognize this is too big for our bkc and we've offered a wide variety of help but he hasn't been able to acknowledge that it would be necessary i fear he doesn't

02:17:54 would be necessary i fear he doesn't quite understand the implications and why the significance of what's going on uh

02:18:02 uh does that description of mr holgate's approach

02:18:04 approach chime with what you experienced of him up till

02:18:08 up till the evening of the 15th of june yes it does had you had a similar conversation uh like the one with which mr parker refers to in your contact with mr holgate where you told him this is too

02:18:20 holgate where you told him this is too big for rbkc i'm not sure it was exactly in those terms but it would have been as is i think evident from the 15th and mark sawyer going across that that support

02:18:31 sawyer going across that that support would be helpful it would be useful it would be needed by him and the borough and was there any reason why a firmer line had not been taken up to that point with nicolas holgate to get him to

02:18:43 get him to see that activation of the gold resolution was in everyone's best interests at an earlier stage

02:18:52 it was probably my um

02:18:54 um [Music]

02:18:55 [Music] misplaced

02:18:57 misplaced belief

02:18:58 belief that

02:18:59 that they were more capable than they were of managing an incident off this scale and understanding what had to be put in place

02:19:11 while we're on this can we just look at something late in the evening

02:19:15 evening of the 15th of june gol50382

02:19:29 this is an email right at the very top

02:19:33 well in fact we can pick it up forgive me pick it up in the second email there um halfway down your screen 15th of june 2223 from you to charlie parker thanks and very helpful robin c would be great

02:19:44 and very helpful robin c would be great to have access to we could speak tomorrow read this

02:19:52 and then in the foot of the email you say great to see colleagues stepping up as you stay scale and complexity enormous

02:19:59 enormous and then there's a further email about a mortuary and then at the very top eleanor kelly just to you at uh just after midnight 20 17 minutes past midnight on the 16th of june

02:20:11 past midnight on the 16th of june why do i think he has been stung innocent face what was that about you would have to ask her for the precise meaning of that what i took it to me

02:20:21 to me was that um the conversations on the five o'clock and subsequent calls were robust and he would have been stung that i think again goes to the point that discussed earlier

02:20:34 goes to the point that discussed earlier that another person was going in and in the end he invoked london local authority gold and that would have stung him right so this is about reputation management i believe that that's how i took it to me that's what i took it to

02:20:45 took it to me that's what i took it to me

02:20:46 me right

02:20:50 then let's move on to the mayoralty um

02:20:54 um i think it's right that well let me ask you did david bellamy who was chief of staff to the mayor of london telephone you as the chair of the lap on that evening

02:21:05 as the chair of the lap on that evening i believe he did with some concerns on what they the gla or sorry the mayor's office had seen at the west bay center yes and i'll just show you his statement to the inquiry at mal 6025

02:21:20 paragraph 79

02:21:28 uh and it's a page 16. forgive me page 16 paragraph 79 he says

02:21:35 he says after the reference to the second ministerial meeting in the afternoon of that day

02:21:39 that day he goes on to say following the meeting i was sufficiently concerned at the lack of progress being made with the recovery operation that on my return to city hall i telephoned john baradel chief executive of the city of london

02:21:50 executive of the city of london corporation and chair of the local authority panel lap to inquire about the progress of the recovery operation from his standpoint and discuss what action could most helpfully be taken

02:22:01 could most helpfully be taken and then four lines up from the foot of the paragraph he continues i was informed by mr baradel that he was currently on a separate call with rbkc who had informed him that they were planning to invoke mutual aid that evening i was reassured by this however

02:22:14 evening i was reassured by this however this did not in fact take place until the following day

02:22:18 day um now making allowances for timing do you remember telling the mayor's office david bellamy in particular that you had been told by our bkc that they were planning to invoke mutual aid

02:22:30 they were planning to invoke mutual aid that evening uh as far as i recall yes and at what point in the afternoon or evening would that have been i believe the call with david bellamy was

02:22:41 was late later than the five o'clock said of course

02:22:44 course my memory is correct uh but it must have been presumably later than the second call you had with nicholas holgate after the he agreed to invoke yes so that that would have been at what time you i honestly can't recall i mean you need to

02:22:56 honestly can't recall i mean you need to look back was it the case that political and public pressure at that stage was such that

02:23:03 such that you realized at the very least that activation of london gold was an imperative now i think that's a fair point yes

02:23:09 point yes um let's then look into the timing a bit further gol60s gol50 is 196. yes this is an email at 1920 if you go to the foot of the screen

02:23:22 1920 if you go to the foot of the screen three quarters of the way down from david bellamy to you feedback on k and c

02:23:31 hi john thanks for your time earlier but there was the feedback i've received from the team here so far if i get any more i'll pass it on best wishes david now the time earlier that must refer to the telephone call yes yes so can we

02:23:44 the telephone call yes yes so can we bound that telephone call is taking place before this email at 7 20 in the evening that would make sense so does that tell us that your call at five o'clock and your two subsequent calls happen before then yes

02:23:55 happen before then yes it would yes so would the sequence of events be seven five o'clock call with uh whole gate uh

02:24:03 uh second call with kelly and

02:24:05 and o'brien

02:24:07 o'brien third call with holgate again and then fourth call with david bellamy i'm sure there are more calls than that but the sequence of these particular ones would make sense yes yes now um let's look at the substance

02:24:18 now um let's look at the substance underneath it first asterisk he says clearer communication to the public on what they should and shouldn't do regular updates just putting times on their website when they update would

02:24:30 their website when they update would help and their twitter updates have been a bit sporadic latest update on their website is 11 34 and the second point improved responsiveness to key agencies

02:24:41 improved responsiveness to key agencies so we can help especially to london resilience who are attempting to coordinate for them um just on that second point what did what did you understand that to me

02:24:50 i understood that to be the request for um uh mutual aid for support um and also the information going through the london local authority

02:25:01 through the london local authority coordinating center and support they were able to offer right

02:25:07 right and then third point over the page top of the screen british red cross have been struggling to get get traction with them i've been helping here but they have lots of experience they could lean on

02:25:19 experience they could lean on um

02:25:21 um was that something that you knew about before then that british red cross had been struggling to get traction with rbkc

02:25:30 i'm like i'm not sure if i did know it before then um specifically about the british red cross

02:25:37 cross and then the fifth point is about lack of communication yeah uh to the penultimate point there um

02:25:43 um he goes on to say eg those who have been evacuated nearby don't know when they will be allowed back was that something that you knew before this call or this email

02:25:52 email not as far as i recall now so you hadn't discussed that with nicholas holgate i don't believe so had you received feedback to that effect from the llag communications team that i think by then is this right had been

02:26:04 think by then is this right had been temporarily seconded into our bkc

02:26:09 the second part i'm not sure of and i'm not i don't recall that the point around corporates and vips was i was aware of a number of offers that had been made

02:26:20 had been made by organizations by private sector organizations that did not receive a again an open armed welcome from rbkc and the communication back to them was not

02:26:31 communication back to them was not strong

02:26:33 strong now we've heard evidence from nicholas holgate and from you that at a point in the evening early evening of the 15th of june the decision was taken to activate llag

02:26:47 why was it decided that the activation would not in fact take place until two o'clock the next day 16th of june it's not it if i i really need to be clear about this london local authority gold is not the two o'clock

02:27:00 is not the two o'clock time slot

02:27:01 time slot this that is the point at which i took i walked into nicholas's shoes and chaired the gold meetings in rbkc and the other london-wide meetings it's very different

02:27:13 london-wide meetings it's very different from being london local authority gold at that point nicholas was still chairing those gold meetings until the two o'clock one and i think the the gold meeting if i'm right on the the 16th in the morning was chaired by

02:27:26 16th in the morning was chaired by nicholas and i believe i was introduced at the time but again my memory not being what it ought to be on some of these things that would be in the evidence somewhere is nicholas holgate chaired that and i was with him

02:27:37 holgate chaired that and i was with him introduced to the meeting to support nicholas

02:27:41 nicholas colgate

02:27:42 colgate the meetings from the two o'clock onwards i chaired and indeed we moved as no doubt you'll come to later we moved those meetings and the support center across to westminster

02:27:55 across to westminster so i can't re i can't iterate enough how important that distinction is just to understand the process that was gone through and the lack of any bluntly legal framework to do that from a local

02:28:07 legal framework to do that from a local authority point of view there was no facility to activate the london local authority gold arrangement or indeed to stand in nicholas's shoes without him asking me to do so

02:28:18 asking me to do so so your evidence is that the only significance of two o'clock on the 16th of june was that you chaired the gold meeting it was incredibly significant because it's the point at which

02:28:29 because it's the point at which i assume responsibility for the response to grenfell tower and able then personally to call upon agencies of government to structure the response as i saw was needed to be done that was

02:28:41 i saw was needed to be done that was only available to me at two o'clock once nicholas holgate had stepped back and said would you please now take responsibility for the recovery for the response well

02:28:51 well forgive me for grandfather forgive me mr paradise i don't want to go over old ground but maybe i i misunderstood something but in that answer and indeed the last one you have emphasized the fact that that

02:29:04 you have emphasized the fact that that nick once

02:29:05 nick once two o'clock came nicholas holgate was stepping back and you were now taking responsibility yes for the response to the fire how is that consistent with the outcome of an invocation of llag

02:29:18 the outcome of an invocation of llag gold being support because the two are very different and that's the point sorry in that case we are violently agreeing

02:29:30 agreeing but the importance here is london local authority gold did not was nicholas's nicholas holgate's gift as it were to do as indeed the two o'clock one was

02:29:41 as indeed the two o'clock one was stepping into the responsibility for grenfell and the response um see if you can help me with this um mr mario it i do understand all you've said about how london

02:29:52 said about how london authority gold is simply uh to provide support you've now talked about uh

02:30:00 uh taking over to use that expression from mr hullgate on the 16th of june it sounds to me as though at that point you stepped outside the gold arrangement right into something which was

02:30:13 right into something which was unplanned and unprecedented i think the second word i would say is absolutely right it was unprecedented it hadn't happened in my knowledge before it relied upon

02:30:24 relied upon if you will the london local authority gold arrangement in its construct to say you are you can take you can spend the money and we it became treated sorry as if it was an event an incident that

02:30:36 if it was an event an incident that crossed borough boundaries if you will and therefore you could invoke and use the london local authority gold in that sense

02:30:44 sense to use the spending and the coordination but it absolutely was unprecedented yes i agree

02:30:51 i agree and

02:30:52 and from then on you weren't really working under the gold resolution unless you were spending money under i think that's what that does provide for you were working on some

02:31:02 some other basis that on the invitation of the royal borough of kensington and chelsea to do so yes right yes thank you if that if if that if that helps i'm that exactly so that's exactly what i'm

02:31:13 that exactly so that's exactly what i'm trying to be clear about thank you very much

02:31:22 right so

02:31:27 uh at the end of 20 at the end of the 15th of june the position was that the arrangements and correct me if this is wrong i just

02:31:38 and correct me if this is wrong i just need to make sure we've understood it through you the arrangements contemplated by the london gold resolution had been activated by mr holgate yes

02:31:52 had been activated by mr holgate yes at that stage was it contemplated that you would do the unprecedented as you've just explained to the chairman

02:32:05 in my mind i think i was becoming

02:32:11 convinced that

02:32:15 that the response of kensington and chelsea was insufficient to provide what was needed by the communities by the survivors by the bereaved and by the community in

02:32:27 bereaved and by the community in kensington and chelsea and that it would need something

02:32:33 more structured and the intervention and i used the word advisory in this sense to be unprecedented to grip

02:32:43 to grip the response well it's unprecedented but formalized in an existing structure and as unprecedented and not contemplated by the existing

02:32:54 not contemplated by the existing structure

02:32:56 structure what was it that had happened at two o'clock was it the former or the latter um i think it was the um the final realization

02:33:08 the final realization that

02:33:09 that by nicholas holgate that

02:33:13 that this was not his area of expertise that it needed expertise to be given the chance to direct and ensure the response was

02:33:24 direct and ensure the response was improved

02:33:25 improved and that

02:33:27 and that other parties present

02:33:31 present which are

02:33:32 which are central government would wish this to be the case as well and the support of central government in that intervention was i believe quite clear

02:33:42 clear and key

02:33:43 and key to that taking place well that's take this in stages but i think the answer is that is this right and by way of an outcome

02:33:55 and by way of an outcome by two o'clock you had come to the conclusion that even the llag arrangements were insufficient for the purpose yes

02:34:06 for the purpose yes yes

02:34:07 yes so something new and radical had to be done

02:34:10 done yes

02:34:12 i see well let's take let's then pull it back in time a little bit and start

02:34:18 start um

02:34:20 um with a run into that back in the evening of the 15th of june can we please go to lfb3061240

02:34:28 and see if this helps

02:34:33 it may not and this is why i'm putting it to you this is an email from john hetherington to toby gould cameron hamish cameron and matt hogan so this is internal to london resilience

02:34:45 so this is internal to london resilience and it's at 2204 in on that evening and if we go straight to the middle of the email he says this llag activation this will not take place before 1300 most likely john b will go

02:34:58 before 1300 most likely john b will go to rbkc to see what he is signing up to before he officially activates llag mark is currently in rbkc trying to help them set out their stall my take on this spoken briefly to hamish

02:35:11 my take on this spoken briefly to hamish we can use this to show a support to mutual aid through the llacc and potentially reduce commitment to recovery at aha mark's requests of us have diminished now that he has spent a day in rbkc and

02:35:23 now that he has spent a day in rbkc and understands the frustrations and the dangers of getting embroiled in sorting out a larger number of problems for them now

02:35:31 now was it the case as a fact that you were going to rbkc to see what you were signing up for before you officially activated llag

02:35:42 no i don't believe so because for the the reason i've said i took this took the activation to be standing by nicholas's side sorry standing by nicholas's side to support

02:35:54 standing by nicholas's side to support him uh during that time as chairing the scg chairing sorry the recovery groups the rbkc gold did you have any

02:36:05 did you have any discussions with london resilience uh whether it was toby gould or any of the others on this email about the outcome of your discussions with um

02:36:16 um with nicholas holgate i i don't recall whether that whether i had or not right are you able to explain [Music]

02:36:23 [Music] how it comes about that mr hetherington thought that activation would not happen before one o'clock the next day i can only assume he thought it was

02:36:34 i can only assume he thought it was taking responsibility for the incident in some form or another that's all i can explain why would he have if he'd understood the london gold arrangements

02:36:46 the london gold arrangements uh in the same way as you why would he think at that stage on the evening of the 15th of june that you would be taking responsibility for the incident as opposed to providing

02:36:57 for the incident as opposed to providing mere support i don't know but my my belief at the time was that

02:37:04 was that nicholas holgate was still sitting in the gold chair in the chair to do that until the point at which it was agreed that he would step aside and ask me to

02:37:15 that he would step aside and ask me to take over and i think there were two separate pieces here one was his understanding and my belief that the london local authority gold activation in the sense of an individual authority

02:37:26 in the sense of an individual authority not a group of authorities took place when he said i'd like to activate that role and the separate one at two o'clock or thereabouts on the following day and i'm sorry that this i'm not going to

02:37:38 and i'm sorry that this i'm not going to say this isn't the mention i i would need to have that or you would need to have that conversation with john hetherington as his understanding for that i think i think in some senses

02:37:49 the london local authority gold activation in that sense was to provide the support to nicholas holgate the second part was taking over the responsibility for the response for

02:38:01 the responsibility for the response for the grenfell tower was there any sense in which you were holding your hand in acting in whatever capacity before satisfying yourself of what it was you were as it were signing up to

02:38:13 was you were as it were signing up to yeah

02:38:15 yeah i think i'd i think it's fair to say with this that i walked forward to try and offer the support and

02:38:23 and um

02:38:24 um what knowledge i had in helping here

02:38:37 now let's go to the transcript of nicholas holgate's evidence at day 273 page 187

02:38:45 he says at line 17.

02:38:55 uh at line 17 he says i would describe it slightly differently i think that it was his that's yours to assume when he

02:39:07 his that's yours to assume when he choose when he choose to do so from any time from the thursday evening phone call onwards and my interpretation of the delay from what i saw as a delay from thursday evening to friday lunchtime is that he thought he would do

02:39:19 lunchtime is that he thought he would do a better job as london gold via a period of observation first then in a sense you know leaping in and having to cover cover both operational short-term decisions while at the same time as doing what he

02:39:30 doing what he turned the page please

02:39:34 what he had done by the saturday morning which is designed a very significant management structure for running the grenfell fire recovery task force or whatever it was called uh

02:39:47 i i want to take it from the evidence you've given us this morning that your impression uh of what you were doing and his impression of what you were doing uh was rather different

02:40:00 it would it would appear so i think the impact that did i

02:40:06 i i would go back to what actually happened at the time which was nicholas was nicholas holgate was still chairing those meetings on the friday morning i was present

02:40:18 i was present i was observing in that sense and offering advice but he was still chairing those meetings the reason for that was to do with in my estimation was to do with the activation

02:40:29 estimation was to do with the activation of london local authority gold and my role here was to advise and support him not to take over because i had no authority to do so if his belief was he activated on friday

02:40:40 if his belief was he activated on friday and his belief was that it was then my responsibility that would not explain some of his actions the next day if it was an error in that sense the error was mine of not explaining explicitly what i believed i

02:40:53 explaining explicitly what i believed i was doing

02:40:54 was doing in other words i was not taking over he was

02:40:57 was he was still responsible i didn't assume the responsibility and the error was probably mine of not explaining that explicitly to him and i think sorry and i think that goes to

02:41:07 to the point of the different situation we were in here with an individual borough not activating not asking for the support not asking for mutual aid over a significant period of

02:41:18 mutual aid over a significant period of time which raised the concern my concern certainly as to their capability and ability to do this and frankly understanding as well that the structures that they put in

02:41:31 that the structures that they put in place were not coping with the demands being placed upon them so

02:41:36 so does it come to this

02:41:40 but you you and nicholas holgate and perhaps london resilience as well on the one hand and you on the other were at cross purposes they thought that you had activated

02:41:51 they thought that you had activated london gold but were waiting to undergo a period of observation to satisfy yourself what you were stepping into and then did so at two o'clock

02:42:02 into and then did so at two o'clock uh

02:42:04 uh taking over but but acting as london gold

02:42:08 gold but your

02:42:09 but your understanding was that you'd activated london gold was performing that role during the morning of the 16th and then at 2 o'clock we stepped outside the london gold arrangements into a brave new world

02:42:21 arrangements into a brave new world unprovided for by the structure

02:42:25 it is i i think evidently from as you've um as you've uh described it and from the evidence here from what people have said clearly there

02:42:36 from what people have said clearly there was a difference of understanding of what was going on i would um though bring to light the evidence from a government official

02:42:48 the evidence from a government official who was present on the friday and what she says

02:42:52 she says this is joe farah who i believe has provided a statement to the inquiry as to what joe farah believed to be the case as well so

02:43:02 so is that what made the is made the difference or contributed to the it contributed to the different stance that was being taken yes

02:43:11 can you just um clarify one rather small point for me um my understanding was that the london gold arrangements gave rise to a road of chief executives

02:43:23 gave rise to a road of chief executives and we've seen reference to the uh chief executive who was on and then going off and so on and so forth you weren't actually due to be gold were you

02:43:33 you so how did how did you assume the position of gold so i think there was a a series of conversations that took place over the previous few days if you remember back in in the at that time we'd been through

02:43:47 in in the at that time we'd been through we'd had a general election we'd had an attack a terrorist attack we'd had an increase on london bridge and westminster bridge borough market

02:43:58 and westminster bridge borough market we've had an increase in the terrorism alert from the terrorism status from significant or substantial sorry to severe which is the first one we've had of that type and we had following the

02:44:09 of that type and we had following the takeover admittedly following finsbury park mosque a series of incidents have been taking place during the period of the grandfather fire and the prudent

02:44:20 the grandfather fire and the prudent thing to do would be to reserve the two chief executives the primary and the secondary for any other incidents that would occur in london and effectively treat this as a separate contained incident where

02:44:32 a separate contained incident where other chief executives could support the resolution allows london local authority gold as defined so in that sense i stepped into that role and therefore had the resolution support behind

02:44:46 resolution support behind all right thank you sorry it was predominantly to do with the the management of potential risk in london here and keeping other chiefs available for those those events should they happen right thank you very much and

02:44:57 happen right thank you very much and presumably when you went along to the meeting

02:45:01 meeting in your role as girls on the morning of you went to kensington on the 16th you were expecting to continue in the role of providing support

02:45:14 i think in my mind as i think i alluded to earlier it was clear to me that the organization would not be able

02:45:25 the organization would not be able to manage

02:45:27 to manage the response the aftermath of grenfell tower in a way that was appropriate for the com and focused on the survivors bereaved and the community now i i that's where i went that when i

02:45:40 now i i that's where i went that when i went to kensington that was in my mind what i had to do was get to a place and this is why i focused on this a little bit i had to get to a place where i was asked to assume the responsibility of

02:45:51 asked to assume the responsibility of kensington and chelsea gold by nicholas holgate and by the borough so that was already in your mind in my mind it was my the outcome that i believed had to happen

02:46:02 believed had to happen right thank you very much it's not an outcome that was provided for by the civil contingency structure in london is it it isn't and that's why it was unprecedented and why nicholas holgate

02:46:14 unprecedented and why nicholas holgate and the borough had to ask me to act in loca parentis or my latin is very bad but in in terms of being the person as knc in that sense

02:46:25 as knc in that sense and you didn't have any qualms about his authority to delegate to that extent

02:46:31 it had as long as it had the support of the political leadership of kensington and chelsea and the support of government to do so and the government why did the government come

02:46:42 government come that was because i knew that i would be asking for significant support from central government not in terms necessarily of cash but of people across government departments dwp home office

02:46:55 government departments dwp home office and so on to be able to respond to the community needs better bluntly they're a key partner in this again not necessarily precedented in the past but certainly would be needed to help respond to this right thank you

02:47:10 yes let's go then to uh if we can please to uh the morning of the 16th of june you attended the town hall i think at 10 o'clock

02:47:20 o'clock uh and went to the council gold group meeting at that stage yes i may have arrived a little bit earlier if my recollection's right i had to wait a little bit in the reception area to to

02:47:31 a little bit in the reception area to to get access into the building but yeah so the first meeting would have been a tenant yes uh and what was your observation of the council's organization of the response from that meeting

02:47:43 from that meeting forest

02:47:44 forest if my

02:47:45 if my recollection's right for a strategic for a meeting that was supposed to be strategic

02:47:49 strategic it felt extremely operational by which i mean it was going into details of numbers of these numbers of that not taking a holistic and an overview there were also if my memory

02:48:02 an overview there were also if my memory is right of a significant number of people in the room i mean i think i'm talking here of 15 to 20 people in the room let's go to gol 50161 please

02:48:14 which is the minutes of the meeting and you can see who was present there uh from the top of the page and if we gave police to page four under llag

02:48:25 under llag um you could see local authority gold is a bullet point jb outlined what he and his team would be doing which is primarily to complement what we are doing and give us some respite he praised the council for

02:48:37 some respite he praised the council for managing on their own for so long but now is the time to get in help and support

02:48:41 support did you say that i believe i did yes and what did you outline at the meeting that you and your team would be doing it would be providing additional staff to help complement what they were doing

02:48:52 help complement what they were doing themselves it's completely it's consistent in my view with with what we would be doing as london local authority gold in these circumstances coordinating additional support getting giving giving the staff who were working were working very hard

02:49:04 who were working were working very hard actually um some respite and support now if you look just above the title london local authority gold you'll see a little bullet point which says john baradel jb asked mf to ensure flow of

02:49:16 baradel jb asked mf to ensure flow of information goes to staff on the front uh what was the background to your raising that i believe there were the concern i think david bellamy the night before had sent

02:49:28 david bellamy the night before had sent an email where there was concern about knowledge and frontline staff and visibility of managers and senior staff and i believe that was referring to that lack of information from the center

02:49:40 information from the center being available at the rest centers as well so it was the david bellamy email i think that was a trigger for that yes among others but it was certainly in the bellamy email and that's the one we've seen

02:49:51 and that's the one we've seen with the asterisks yes yes gol50196 yes right let's um now let's then move to something you've just referred to which is the

02:50:02 just referred to which is the um

02:50:03 um appearance on the scene of joe dr joe farah

02:50:06 farah yes now um taking a step back she was i think at this time 16th of june 2017 the director general for local government and public services i i believe so at the mhclg yes yes yes

02:50:19 i i believe so at the mhclg yes yes yes and she

02:50:20 and she she says in her statement to the inquiry that she saw you and spoke to you in nicholas holgate's offices on that day the 16th of june 2017. do you recall that meeting i don't recall the

02:50:31 that meeting i don't recall the specifics i know i met joe that day would it have been uh in the morning of that day i can't i honestly can't recall would it have been after the um local gold meeting we've just seen the minutes

02:50:43 gold meeting we've just seen the minutes before

02:50:46 it's likely yes because the first when i arrived at kensington as i say there was a slight delay in getting in um into the office but i believe i spoke to nicholas holgate first

02:50:58 to nicholas holgate first right therefore the timing would suggest it was after the 10 o'clock meeting let's then go to her statement for the to the inquiry clg3030414

02:51:10 please page 16

02:51:14 paragraph [Music]

02:51:15 [Music] 78.

02:51:18 78. at the foot of the screen she says this i went to see nicholas holgate as planned

02:51:24 planned and was surprised that he was not available to see me i had to wait for some time when i was shown shown to his office john baradel was present and in discussion with nicholas holgate my

02:51:35 discussion with nicholas holgate my recollection is that john stated he was there to support nicholas holgate and that there would be a chief executive rota as part of the london resilience arrangements i did not think this sounded sensible and felt we needed an experienced person to be in the lead

02:51:48 experienced person to be in the lead rather than in support do you recall first saying that you were there to support nicholas holgate that's consistent with my interpretation of the london local authority gold role

02:52:00 of the london local authority gold role yeah but do you recall it i i the specifics of the meeting i said i can't um

02:52:06 um when she says um

02:52:10 that when she says that uh i did not think this sounded sensible and felt we needed an experienced person to be in the lead rather than support

02:52:22 to be in the lead rather than support did she say that i i can't recall if she i presume she did if it's in a statement i don't know i recall now if we turn the page please to page 79 paragraph 79 page 17

02:52:35 79 paragraph 79 page 17 she says i therefore had a private discussion with john baradel to ask if he would take over the local authority gold role on a permanent basis he agreed in principle do you recall

02:52:46 he agreed in principle do you recall that yes you do and what did you understand her to mean when she off when she invited you to take over the local authority gold role on a permanent basis what did you

02:52:58 on a permanent basis what did you understand her to be implying or expressing that was the um being the rbkc gold role it was stepping into the shoes

02:53:09 gold role it was stepping into the shoes of nicholas holgate chairing the various meetings chairing the gold meetings for an example and in doing that did you understand that you would be in effect rbkc

02:53:21 in effect rbkc not all of it only that part of it responding to the incident on their borough

02:53:26 borough and that you in acting you were actually acting within the powers and with the responsibility and authority of

02:53:33 of the chief executive of the council of the council the responsibility for for the response to the the grenfell fire type at grenfell tower of fire

02:53:46 fire type at grenfell tower of fire was

02:53:47 was the council's responsibility so you were basically becoming the the individual at the category one responder directing and being responsible for that category

02:53:59 and being responsible for that category one responders response that is a a summary of what i felt that was the role at the time yeah i see

02:54:07 then can i just ask had you had any contact with the council in any manifestation uh by that time only i believe only nicholas holgate well he's not the guts

02:54:19 nicholas holgate well he's not the guts he's the chief executive i don't recall one with um with the leader of the council though not that i recall the polit the politic i take it you mean the political side well i was thinking

02:54:31 the political side well i was thinking of whoever it is who speaks on behalf of the council or who can take decisions on behalf of the country the chief executive can take decisions on behalf of the council through delegated authority from the

02:54:42 through delegated authority from the council in full council so they do have the power to do that depends on the delegations given to the chief executive by the council but it would be normal that they could delegate the responsibility for an example to chair

02:54:53 responsibility for an example to chair and coordinate response to an individual that they choose that would be that would be normal practice

02:55:00 practice right well let's just look and see what um joe farah's recollection is uh she says that she then spoke to john o'brien

02:55:08 o'brien chief executive of london councils he agreed to assist in facilitating this arrangement nicholas holgate agreed to this course and stepped down from the role was john o'brien present at this meeting i don't think so but i couldn't

02:55:22 meeting i don't think so but i couldn't say one way or the other right i don't believe he was do you recall what nicholas holgate said or did in agreeing to this course and stepping down from the role

02:55:33 down from the role no

02:55:33 no but simply that i i don't recall the specifics of the conversation though right

02:55:39 right who was it who appointed you into the role of rbkc gold

02:55:48 rbkc gold uh nicholas stepping down and asked me to do it

02:55:52 to do it so he appointed you to take his place yes

02:55:55 yes did you investigate whether he had the power to do that i assumed that he had um asked

02:56:02 um asked his political leadership

02:56:06 part of the conversation with john o'brien would have been this is happening for him to understand that um but no i didn't specifically ask him what authority he had to do that i took

02:56:17 what authority he had to do that i took this at that stage from an rbkc point of view as stepping forward to assist and chairing the rbkc meetings and nicholas agreeing for that to be the case and

02:56:28 agreeing for that to be the case and attending the meetings himself as well

02:56:32 so summarizing it perhaps can we pinpoint

02:56:36 pinpoint your agreement to step into the role previously occupied by nicholas holgate in the response to this discussion with dr joe farrar on the perhaps

02:56:48 on the perhaps late morning of the 16th of june this was a point in time when it when nicholas

02:56:55 nicholas asked me to do that role right

02:57:00 now i think it's also the case that you updated melanie dawes permanent secretary of the mhclg later that evening

02:57:07 evening uh yes i i spoke i believe i spoke to her later that day yes now let's go to cab402932 to see if we can assist with your your recollection on this topic

02:57:18 your your recollection on this topic this is an email from i'm afraid it's it's it's a bit small we may be able to expand it if we can it's an email from melanie dawes uh to mark sedwill

02:57:31 uh to mark sedwill uh on the 16th of june 2017 at 2026. uh he was the then national security adviser

02:57:38 adviser i think and you you were not copied into it but it refers to her contact with you and let me show you what she says

02:57:48 mark i know the pm has been very concerned about kensington chelsea's capacity today as i said in the margins of cobra john baradel took over at lunchtime as gold command for the whole

02:57:59 lunchtime as gold command for the whole recovery and he has just rung me with an update he has clearly made very significant progress this afternoon and i think we can now be assured that the situation is coming under proper control the key points

02:58:11 the key points he has taken over the entire recovery operation

02:58:14 operation parallel teams to the k and c ones are now in place on all fronts including housing they finally have shift patterns in place

02:58:22 in place and then it goes on four lines down john has brought all bullet points down john has brought in heavyweight leadership alongside him three serving chief executives are acting as his deputies select hansler and bromley

02:58:35 uh and it it goes on in in detail um first

02:58:43 first had you told her that you had made very significant progress

02:58:47 progress i think i i would not presume to say that what i would have said to her is these are the actions that have taken place this is what i've done in the period

02:58:55 period between lunchtime and when i spoke to her yeah

02:58:58 her yeah half

02:59:00 half right i mean what i've read to you so far does that um is that consistent with the your recollection of what you had done yes yes plus a few other things yes yes some other things are in there as well and i haven't read it all to you

02:59:12 well and i haven't read it all to you and then she goes on after the bullet points as follows on knc itself john is clear that they are in a bad way at official level the gold structure manages this risk for the time being it

02:59:23 manages this risk for the time being it has basically taken over a political level other london councils are coming in with support after the immediate crisis

02:59:31 crisis over

02:59:32 over is over we will clearly need to consider a long-term solution now when she says it has basically taken over that's correct isn't it i think uh

02:59:43 over that's correct isn't it i think uh for the response to the grenfell tower fire yes yes it's not taking over the council just to be really clear yes yes but and but that was not a result i think you now tell us as a result of the

02:59:54 think you now tell us as a result of the invocation of the gold arrangements it was that it was subsequent to that and novel correct yes um

03:00:03 um and on your assessment of rbkc did you tell her

03:00:07 tell her that

03:00:08 that it was in a bad way yes what was that what was it about the council that was in a bad way we have moved from lunchtime to 8 20.

03:00:20 we have moved from lunchtime to 8 20. in the intervening period a series of events happened one of which was

03:00:25 was the demonstration within the town hall that demonstrated to me firsthand

03:00:32 firsthand the

03:00:33 the um

03:00:34 um the fragility of the leadership team in knc after

03:00:39 knc after working all hours bluntly between the fire and then and

03:00:43 and that's what i was talking about in a bad way

03:00:47 way the staff were very tired they had worked incredibly hard continuously actually from the fire and one thing if i can make make clear mr chairman

03:00:56 chairman the comments i'm making are in no way about the staff individual staff who did go above and beyond to work incredibly long hours but the structure in the way of working was like was my comment to be really clear about this and the k and c

03:01:08 really clear about this and the k and c in a bad way were the organization itself and the staff within it having worked that way i saw first hand during the demonstration how um how

03:01:19 the demonstration how um how fragile that was yes thank you uh mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is thank you very much um well mr bernal that's the time we should stop so we can all have some

03:01:30 should stop so we can all have some lunch so we'll break that we'll resume please at two o'clock and that's before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it while you're out of the room thank you thank you very much

03:01:52 thank you very much just a minute two o'clock please

03:02:02 you