Martin Sawyer, London local authority gold coordinator, gives evidence about RBKC's failures during the Grenfell response, including David Curry's absence, lack of situational awareness, inadequate command structures, and his concerns about the council's capacity to manage the crisis.
00:00:24 would you ask us desire to come back in please thank you
00:00:37 all right mr sawyer when we get if you're ready sorry thank you very much yes mr keating thank you mr chairman welcome back mr sawyer we were just about to turn to the 15th of june and there's one topic like that you're
00:00:49 and there's one topic like that you're assisting with is in relation to david curry is it right that you actually had contact with him on the evening of the 14th of june yeah it was a phone call yes and you set out at paragraph 36
00:01:00 yes and you set out at paragraph 36 perhaps we could open it up so we have it all in front of us that's he spoke to him on the phone and during the call david carrey briefed me and he confirmed he's just about to start a night shift and i expressed concern that he need to be available
00:01:11 concern that he need to be available during the day to support the council's overall response and he acknowledged that concern we know that you saw him on the 15th of june and he was working for a short
00:01:22 june and he was working for a short period of time but then went on to he was still working night shift he wasn't working during the day is that correct
00:01:29 correct as i understand it yes was there any response or update as to why he remained on nights and not worked during the day of the 15th of june and 16th of june
00:01:41 16th of june no no no no mention of that having raised it also in my statement uh with tony redpath as well and that links back to this point about rbkc
00:01:53 point about rbkc and utilizing the right staff in the right roles at the right time to support their decision making so we know that he wasn't there during the day in the 15th of june and what
00:02:06 the day in the 15th of june and what impacts did you think that would have had or did have on the rbkc response on the 15th of june and then 16th of june
00:02:16 the impact was simply that from what i could see their overall response required
00:02:26 some it was very fragmented and it needed someone somewhere centrally to be advising nicholas appropriately about the right structures that needed to be played in place and the way in which
00:02:37 played in place and the way in which that could best be delivered the types of
00:02:41 of frameworks planning or sort of the response arrangements that needed to be put into place and and my view was that if david had been around there during the day
00:02:53 in the day on day one rather than than not being there on on the 14th he might have been able to guide and steer the local authority response and particularly nicodus holgate
00:03:05 particularly nicodus holgate into
00:03:06 into greater understanding about what was required the scale that was of of of what was required to be put into place and that may have changed certain decisions rbkc made on the 14th
00:03:19 certain decisions rbkc made on the 14th so is it your view that you consider that there was a vacuum in terms of specialist advice that could have been given to the town clerk nicholas holgate on the 15th of june or the 14th of june
00:03:33 on the 15th of june or the 14th of june well i i went in and probably filled that role to some extent on the 15th therefore the question is why wasn't there someone from rpk to to do that for them yes and it wouldn't mean somebody
00:03:44 them yes and it wouldn't mean somebody doing that on the 14th of june if david kerry was not there yeah and i can't obviously comment on what difference that would have made on the 14th i can just comment on the fact that there was a
00:03:55 there was a vacuum on the 15th with that needed to be filled
00:03:59 be filled so it's right isn't it you had a on the 15th of june a meeting in early in the morning with both david curry and nicholas holgate is that correct correct how did you find in terms of
00:04:11 in terms of and
00:04:11 and how he appeared mr curry when you saw him on the 15th of june i think as described in my statement he was traumatized and emotional and tired and whilst he was there did you consider
00:04:23 and whilst he was there did you consider he was able to actually assist mr holgate
00:04:27 holgate no
00:04:28 no sorry i did consider that he wasn't fit to support nicholas yes
00:04:36 we'll see in due course but in one of your post-fire reflections you say that a
00:04:44 a briefing by dk david curry emergency planning manager he confirmed he's traumatized not in position to offer strategic direction with influence is that a fair summary definitely and
00:04:57 is that a fair summary definitely and we'll see that documents in a moment did you raise with mr holgate on the 15th of june this
00:05:05 this that that mr curry wasn't around and should be around or there was an absence of support he required i had several conversations with nicolas holgate i i don't recall the detail of
00:05:18 holgate i i don't recall the detail of all of them but i do recall as i mentioned earlier referencing david kerry's the vacuum created by him being on night shift to um to tony redpath but i think
00:05:30 shift to um to tony redpath but i think as the day progressed it became more and more clear that the rbkc as an organization needed additional support so to be honest with you the the
00:05:41 so to be honest with you the the the the vacuum created by david not being there i think we moved moved on to some extent and started talking about so what extra help do you need but but i'd like to say
00:05:53 help do you need but but i'd like to say i did reiterate my concern about david and the need for him for him to still be around during the day let's move to paragraph 69 of your statement which is that page 14.
00:06:08 and it just provides a useful summary of what you were doing soon after your arrival
00:06:14 arrival you would attend it with some notes which you talked through including the type of structures and groups nicholas holgate would need to consider adopting as the instant move from response to recovery and what was required to ensure a smooth transition
00:06:28 i then raised the points that that or bkc should consider what additional support it required and what conditions it would wish to apply in discussions with the metropolitan police service considering
00:06:39 metropolitan police service considering the formal handover from response to recovery
00:06:44 recovery terms we've heard already emergency response
00:06:47 response and to recovery could you briefly explain the significance of when an emergency moves from response to recovery
00:06:55 recovery without quoting the the guidance my
00:07:00 my general understanding would be that um response transitions to recovery at the point whereby there's no longer a risk to life and that the the situation has has
00:07:12 and that the the situation has has stabilized and that at that point the blue light organizations um start to withdraw and let me assist you in relation to the
00:07:23 and let me assist you in relation to the the non-statutory guidance in relation to this paragraph 5.1.5 the recovery phase should begin at the earliest opportunity following the onset of an emergency running in tandem with response to
00:07:35 running in tandem with response to emergency it continues until disruption has been rectified demands and services have returned to normal levels and the needs of those affected directly and indirectly have been met is that is that
00:07:47 indirectly have been met is that is that what you were alluding to when you were asked
00:07:50 asked yeah the final points within that sorry and the needs of those affected directly in the indirectly have been met yeah obviously that's a a new point in terms of the grenfell response
00:08:01 terms of the grenfell response and when would you expect normally from your experience that transition to occur from emergency response to recovery traditionally it is it is reasonably
00:08:12 traditionally it is it is reasonably quick um it depends on the scale of the incident you know and every incident is obviously different um so i wouldn't like to
00:08:19 like to to put a a definitive time frame on on that but it is obviously
00:08:26 obviously a time at which all parties concerned are satisfied that those if not all some of that criteria has been met
00:08:35 been met and then it transitions to the local authority who are responsible for supporting the community leading the community
00:08:44 community within that area so therefore it is an agreed point in time
00:08:50 and we saw from earlier emails on the day before that there was an expectation that the response would move to recovery on the 15th of june is that correct
00:09:02 the 15th of june is that correct no that's not correct not not that's that wouldn't be my definitive view um i think there may have been suggestions that that it was likely that
00:09:13 suggestions that that it was likely that that would be at the point at which it would happen but but i don't recall any conversations that i was party to that that suggested that that was definitely going to happen okay
00:09:24 definitely going to happen okay let's perhaps look at it from a different perspective the night before we saw an email where david curry had been tasked overnight to produce the road to recovery
00:09:35 produce the road to recovery and that was loosely based on a senior management team on an agenda for the senior management team this morning you'll recall where we just dealt with that before lunchtime so that was something which was referred
00:09:46 so that was something which was referred to in correspondence the night before when you attended and had your meeting with david curry was there any um response was there any document prepared in relation to setting out a
00:09:58 prepared in relation to setting out a root ruth map in relation to the
00:10:02 the going towards recovery no not that i saw and
00:10:06 and just to qualify the previous question yes
00:10:09 yes as far as i'm concerned by defining that route towards recovery that path wasn't necessarily to me an indication that it was definitely going to happen on the 15th
00:10:21 on the 15th this this flows from your answer so far did you think from what you saw and what was being discussed on that morning on the 15th of june did you consider that our bkc was in a position to transition
00:10:33 our bkc was in a position to transition from response to recovery no and why was that
00:10:41 for two reasons firstly i don't think that they had robust enough arrangements in place to effectively manage the recovery process
00:10:53 process and secondly i think there had been a complete loss of trust and confidence in rbkc
00:11:03 in rbkc and
00:11:04 and therefore for them to lead on the recovery
00:11:09 recovery strategies and action would have been required
00:11:12 required to to restore some of that faith and confidence in in in in the local authority
00:11:18 authority and in relation to the latter matter that
00:11:20 that loss of trust that you described it when did that become apparent to you that that was a significant factor
00:11:30 i had no idea whatsoever before the fire even on the 14th the level of of
00:11:38 of mistrust there was circulating amongst the the community so this was brand new to me i think i think it started to hit home
00:11:49 i think i think it started to hit home probably
00:11:51 probably on the 15th when when i gained more news was being shared and and and the situation became clearer
00:12:02 and when we were looking at our statement in paragraph 69 you were referring to you raised the point about what rbkc should consider what what additional support it required
00:12:14 support it required what support did you consider that they required
00:12:17 required at that point i hadn't really got to grips with exactly what they had in place in the first place and to be honest with you as always in this um
00:12:28 um i'm not sure rbkc knew what what additional support they needed there wasn't that single point of truth in terms of how they were responding the bec wasn't functioning effectively
00:12:39 bec wasn't functioning effectively and therefore discussions were taking place without the full picture understood situational awareness is and perhaps another term first yes is that fair yes
00:12:51 another term first yes is that fair yes i think we'll cover that in just a moment let's move on then to this is your early meeting we then know that there was an rbkc gold group meeting senior ship management team meeting at 10 o'clock on the 15th of
00:13:03 meeting at 10 o'clock on the 15th of june what was your assessment as an observer of that meeting i think as detailed in the statement i think it was very operational and i think that was because there
00:13:14 and i think that was because there wasn't this for once a better word consistent understanding of the situation
00:13:20 situation i think it was too big
00:13:25 and i think
00:13:28 there was no it was too polite and and i need to qualify that it was it was i think it may have been described as a board meeting by other people
00:13:39 as a board meeting by other people giving evidence and it was it was it was for me very similar to a traditional style of local authority meeting very polite very very structured
00:13:50 polite very very structured it wasn't dynamic it wasn't forward-looking and it um
00:13:57 um yeah i think i've probably said enough about that meeting well let's look at paragraph 73 if you could scroll down you
00:14:05 you chimes what you just told us this last sentence
00:14:10 sentence you say after the meeting i suggested whole gate that the meeting had been very operational and not strategic enough
00:14:16 enough and you ask them to consider reducing the membership you could see your relief what was his response when you said to him that the meeting was too operational and not strategic enough i'm not sure i got a response to that
00:14:31 how receptive was nicholas holgates to your input on the 15th of june i believe he was receptive i think i think
00:14:43 believe he was receptive i think i think i don't recall a particular comment in terms of that previous statement just made
00:14:48 made he was receptive but i think
00:14:54 he was trying to
00:14:57 trying to oversee the council response in a traditional local authority way which meant that if that was his senior management team then he probably wouldn't have wished to
00:15:10 then he probably wouldn't have wished to pick and choose who he involved whereas i would have picked and choose those heads of services those heads of directors in various departments who actually had something to contribute
00:15:21 actually had something to contribute so more streamlined approach yeah and i think that would be the more effective way of
00:15:27 way of of having a a real strategic level conversation and and and the thing that was missing was not so much this is what we need to do now there wasn't there wasn't a clear
00:15:39 there wasn't there wasn't a clear deadline placed on anything as far as i can remember and there there wasn't a sense of this is what we need to do within the next 24 48 72 hours and a forward look
00:15:52 48 72 hours and a forward look to add some sense of direction and purpose to the response and is that what you mean when you refer to not being strategic enough yes i'm going to move on to the humanitarian
00:16:03 i'm going to move on to the humanitarian assistance steering group which again the panel have heard quite a lot of evidence in relation to that was something which was being assembled that day and the first meeting
00:16:16 assembled that day and the first meeting took place at
00:16:18 at two o'clock on the 15th of june and at paragraph 75 if we could see just in front of us you had contact with sue redmond you say this i spoke to sue redmond's nominated
00:16:30 this i spoke to sue redmond's nominated or bkc halo and i noted the extreme pressure she was under due to the pace in which the response was required and the scale of the situation is that a fair summary yes
00:16:43 the situation is that a fair summary yes would you have expected a halo
00:16:46 a halo to be to be appointed before the 15th of june would you expect one to be appointed on the 14th of june for instance
00:16:54 instance i would have expected on the 14th of june someone to be designated with the responsibility to lead on the response to the community i think within their borough emergency
00:17:07 i think within their borough emergency management plan it references a welfare bronze yes the question is who does that welfare bronze report into and yes i would have expected someone to be tasked with leading the humanitarian
00:17:19 be tasked with leading the humanitarian assistance response and that's something the halo was something which is a role identified in the humanitarian assistance framework one of the london resilience documents is that correct
00:17:30 resilience documents is that correct that's correct
00:17:33 and were you aware that she had no training before in that role as a halo if i didn't then i would have been informed on that morning
00:17:45 and again just so that that the panel perhaps can assess how normal this is would you expect in that sort of situation for the appointed halo
00:17:56 sort of situation for the appointed halo to be somebody with no previous experience in that role no you will well did
00:18:02 did if if you define experience as appropriately trained having exercised and understand the role and and what's required then i would expect that in
00:18:13 required then i would expect that in terms of experience there are so few incidents that have of this of the scale that would require a full-blown humanitarian assistance response then direct experience no no
00:18:25 response then direct experience no no but you would expect is it right from your answer someone who was appointed would have the director training yes
00:18:32 yes and exercising that role yes and did you provide assistance to ms redmond in relation to her carrying out her role i did in the lead-up to the meeting but not during the meeting
00:18:43 meeting but not during the meeting because i wasn't in the room and is it the case that you invited and asked torby gould to
00:18:55 to yes assist did i i did and that included sending me the meeting invites to those people that had been omitted by rbkc in the first i believe in the first round of invites
00:19:10 there's probably a lot of things going on in relation to your involvement on the 15th of june but were you aware that um
00:19:17 um that invitation for toby gold to assist miss
00:19:21 miss redmond was around half past one that's when that request was made to him does that sound about right that's correct and after that was prompted by me
00:19:32 and after that was prompted by me and it
00:19:33 and it it led to mr gould doing his best but sending out invites to the voluntary sector and an updated agenda about 10 minutes before the meeting correct would you agree
00:19:44 would you agree far from an ideal set of circumstances sending out information such as that so close to an important meeting without doubt
00:19:56 i want to move on to communications
00:19:59 at paragraph 72 you refer to um
00:20:05 um speaking to martin fitzpatrick and he was head of the media communications team at rbkc and you explained that he had failed to
00:20:17 and you explained that he had failed to dial into the london gold communications group conference call at half past eight in the morning and it states martin fitzpatrick indicated that the request may have been lost in 200 emails he had not had time
00:20:30 lost in 200 emails he had not had time to open is that correct that's what that that event happened yes yes and what what would the purpose again a sister panel of a london gold communications group conference what
00:20:42 communications group conference what would that be that's part of the london resilience partnership structures and arrangements uh following a response strategic coordination arrangements um it's an opportunity for
00:20:54 um it's an opportunity for comms leads communications leads from all of those key responding agencies to align messaging share share what anything relevant in terms of
00:21:05 anything relevant in terms of communications and and ensure that there is a coherent approach to messaging both the local community and the rest of london as
00:21:14 as necessary and was it a cause of concern that
00:21:19 that the head of the media communications team at rbkc had not participated in that call it was concern enough for i believe someone from london resilience
00:21:30 i believe someone from london resilience group to tell me that he hadn't been on that call and therefore it was it was sufficiently important for me to raise it with him
00:21:40 and and can i just add that i'm not sure if you have the minutes from that
00:21:48 from that conference call if rbkcr on that that call then that was obviously um i wasn't aware of that but also i would have expected martin
00:21:59 but also i would have expected martin fitzpatrick to be aware if they were on the call or not what we've heard is a pretty small team the media communications team and you've given your advice there about the difficulties he he raised in relation to
00:22:11 difficulties he he raised in relation to the volume of material in terms of emails
00:22:15 emails what view did you form during the 15th of june once whilst you were at the town hall of how the communications team were performing at all bkc that was one of the one of the areas i
00:22:27 that was one of the one of the areas i didn't really delve too deeply with well
00:22:31 well let's have a quick look at gol quadruple zero one three zero one these are your post instant reflections which we will touch upon but on the fourth line
00:22:44 but on the fourth line we can see comms team in denial and overwhelmed asked why i missed 8 30 exclamation i'm not sure that's deliberate or not comms call
00:22:55 call missed amongst 200 emails
00:22:59 so it's really the first part of the sentence i'd like your assistance with comms teamwork in denial and overwhelmed what did you mean by that the overwhelmed um aspect of that
00:23:11 overwhelmed um aspect of that was was uh a link to the 200 emails small team etc etc um the denial piece i i can't recall okay
00:23:28 i wanted to if you could go back to your statement we'll refer to this document again in a short while but if you go back to your statement at paragraph 50 of your first statement please page 10.
00:23:43 thank you
00:23:49 and you set out really what your approach
00:23:52 approach third line disinvolvement include gaining an understanding of the methods and structures being applied by rbkc to manage the response across the range of responsibilities including humanitarian assistance
00:24:03 including humanitarian assistance housing mass fatalities and generic command and control functions so
00:24:08 so really this draws together what you say in your statements so you've done a number of things and that allowed you to gain an understanding of their structures is that right yes and at paragraph 54
00:24:20 is that right yes and at paragraph 54 have you
00:24:22 have you set out your opinion
00:24:26 you say this however in my opinion i did not believe that nicholas holgate had complete awareness of the scale and complexity of what all bkc were being asked to deal with with a lack of full situational
00:24:38 with a lack of full situational awareness across the senior management team
00:24:41 team is that correct yes it is when did you form that view
00:24:48 around lunchtime i think maybe maybe early afternoon
00:24:54 i can't be specific but because like i say this just evolved that
00:25:00 and there were a number of specific elements that led me to to to perform my overall opinion which then as i said earlier it led to a conversation with
00:25:11 earlier it led to a conversation with john barrow down late afternoon
00:25:15 well the conversation i think you referred to was the day before in the 14th so we're on the 50. this is a new conversation we'll move on to our conversation but in relation to conversations did you
00:25:26 but in relation to conversations did you raise these concerns with mr holgates that there that he had a lack of understanding of the complexity of what obc would deal with and there's
00:25:37 of what obc would deal with and there's a lack of full situation little awareness i don't know i don't recall discussing that with him in that in in in those terms no i don't recall that
00:25:49 in those terms no i don't recall that should you have i think that goes back to my comment earlier about i should have stepped in earlier and made that more clearly known um
00:26:00 um but i think uh
00:26:02 uh as i said the intention was always to go in there and try and assist i i had several conversations with tony redpath because nicholas was always very you know appeared very busy um and i and i
00:26:15 know appeared very busy um and i and i raised the issue about situational awareness definitely with him um and so i i was hoping just with the intention of trying to help that by
00:26:26 that by flagging these things as the day progressed the situation would improve were you trying to encourage nudge and points towards areas to improve is
00:26:39 and points towards areas to improve is that is that how you in the reality your approach was that is a really good way of describing that and the other way whether right or wrong
00:26:50 i i still felt that i was a guest in rbkc
00:26:54 rbkc i'd been i've been allowed in rather than having the authority to go in and actually
00:26:59 actually instruct and change so it was working with them to ensure that i remained seen as as supportive and and trying to help rather than
00:27:11 help rather than not
00:27:13 not and in retrospect you've alluded to twice now so the lessons learned is a lesson that you've learned is that you should have been more
00:27:23 challenging in highlighting the extent of how or bkc were going wrong yeah and exactly and i think
00:27:31 think again testament to the fact that this was the first situation
00:27:37 situation that i'd been involved with which required that level of
00:27:44 assertion you know be that level of assertiveness um and as i said i think there was a co there were a number of events which culminated um in the earlier
00:27:55 um in the earlier sorry mid afternoon that then led me to say to john barrowdale this isn't working okay
00:28:02 okay we'll move that in a little in a little while once we've got paragraph 54 let's continue just reading the last parts it was also my opinion that rbkc had not been galvanized as an organization due
00:28:14 been galvanized as an organization due to witnessing members of staff seemingly continuing to deliver their day jobs also a small number of individuals appeared to be dealing with a significant number of issues at the same time
00:28:24 time what did you mean by that
00:28:28 i think without doubt there were lots and lots of good people trying to do the best they possibly could it may have been just
00:28:39 it may have been just and sorry
00:28:41 and sorry i i acknowledge that there are still critical services that a local authority still needs to deliver even in the midst of the tragedy at grenfell
00:28:51 grenfell so that that acknowledged but there was just again this this sense that i got that there were too few people trying to do too much and and i didn't at any stage
00:29:05 and and i didn't at any stage hear the terms referenced that all non-critical services had been suspended as an example the fact that um
00:29:15 um the humanitarian assistance group meeting
00:29:19 meeting had to be relocated because the i.t wasn't working etc what i wasn't seeing is a team of people running around making
00:29:30 running around making the whole
00:29:31 the whole um response work so so it's not just those people making decisions and dealing directly with with the issues it's the infrastructure around that to
00:29:42 it's the infrastructure around that to enable it to function effectively and and and i didn't get any sense of that and i think it links back if i may this this may seem very minor but would i i was very concerned when i
00:29:55 but would i i was very concerned when i walked in to the council offices that morning and saw the pile of donations in the courtyard outside and no sense of anybody being instructed
00:30:06 and no sense of anybody being instructed or or being tasked with with dealing with that there may well have been but it was just my observations on the day
00:30:18 one interpretation and impression from your answers was that there was a lack of urgency that you observed is that a is that a fair impression
00:30:29 i wouldn't necessarily say that that would be fair because i'm sure in certain areas across the organization there was urgency in terms of activity
00:30:41 that what was lacking was an urgency to define the way in which the council should address these big issues that needed to be addressed
00:30:53 issues that needed to be addressed and that was again just my observations from from
00:30:56 from from the gold meetings well let's refer return back to your post
00:31:02 post instant reflections which is gol401301
00:31:07 and we've touched upon some of these already but i just want to deal with the the remainder
00:31:16 i think we're just going to bring it up in a moment gol401301 that's it you mentioned all right it's what you noted down and emailed to yourself
00:31:27 noted down and emailed to yourself about a couple of weeks after the incident we see on the first example the one you just touched upon the donations which you first observed correct correct
00:31:39 which you first observed correct correct fifth line ceo no system to address offers of support
00:31:45 support and you give an example where you suggest he should request acknowledgement we mentioned that before before lunch that there was emails internally between you and lrg
00:31:57 internally between you and lrg regarding
00:31:58 regarding nicholas holger being too busy to consider offers of support did that remain an issue
00:32:09 i i can't say others will have been more cited than i was in terms of the actual offers coming in i'm aware for example of the uh
00:32:20 of the uh business sector panel making making offers available so yes there were offers but once
00:32:28 but once the uh
00:32:30 the uh conversation was had at 5 30 then my focus moved more towards what we were going to do the next day and how we were going to ease into
00:32:41 were going to ease into full sort of local authority gold support
00:32:44 support well you make an observation here which is implicitly a criticism that there is no system in place to address the offers of support perhaps if i put it this way what system
00:32:55 perhaps if i put it this way what system would you expect someone in that situation to have in place to deal with offers of support i would have expected there to have been a dead dedicated officer perhaps within the back bar emergency control center
00:33:09 the back bar emergency control center that where every offer of support would have been channeled through um that's the way i would have done it and then allow that that officer or that role to then um disseminate and but the
00:33:23 role to then um disseminate and but the key is not just pinging it out sorry for the technical term of you know sending it on to people it's about monitoring it it's about making sure actually that it is actioned
00:33:34 making sure actually that it is actioned which is why again i was particularly keen to highlight to nicholas the the offer from borough market who had sadly obviously had the the terrorist incident only a few days
00:33:45 the terrorist incident only a few days before that but they were still willing and and wanting to to provide whatever support they could which i thought was was admirable and i thought that it was worthy of of a response but this then also links to
00:33:59 response but this then also links to um
00:34:00 um the sense that nicholas didn't have sufficiently robust support around him to take some of the
00:34:12 to take some of the for once a better word administrative burden away from him and allow him to do some of that strategic thinking which was required he was too operational rather than strategic i think he was overwhelmed
00:34:25 strategic i think he was overwhelmed okay
00:34:27 okay i want to deal with one of the other observations you made and you've touched upon already is underneath that beck failing with no situational awareness no sit rep produced
00:34:39 no sit rep produced again when did you formed a view that the beck
00:34:42 the beck was failing with no situational awareness i think that was after the we went straight from i went straight from observing the council gold meeting i think at 10 into the scg at 11
00:34:55 i think at 10 into the scg at 11 and it was after the scg that i made that point and i think then the overnight they were tasked with the situation report so that so it materialized the next morning
00:35:10 and you mentioned raising this with tony redpath is that correct i believe so and what's his response when you raised the lack of situational awareness in the back i think he acknowledged that
00:35:21 i believe he acknowledged it from my recollection
00:35:28 once we have this document open it's slightly out of sequence in terms of the timeline but we see down at the bottom challenge director of housing over suggestion residents would be spending a further night in rest center
00:35:41 further night in rest center c minutes to 16th pm gold meeting associated comments from gold it is adequate
00:35:49 adequate can you
00:35:50 can you assist with the circumstances where you challenge the director of housing over that suggestion
00:35:58 what i can recall is that there was a suggestion that there may still be people residents members of the community um having to spend an additional night
00:36:10 um having to spend an additional night or the next that that night in in a rest center
00:36:13 center and and i questioned whether more could be done
00:36:17 be done not can't recall the exact words but i question as to whether more should be done to ensure that didn't happen
00:36:27 and the last feature is this due to continuing concerns and grip arranged conference call and evening at approximately 5 30.
00:36:38 approximately 5 30. i'm going to ask you again we will read it out now mid cole nick left room to speak to someone outside in relation to that part is that you were you with mr holgates at the town
00:36:50 were you with mr holgates at the town hall during this teleconference yes i was and this is something you noted that he joined the teleconference with john bardel and others that he left the room to speak to somebody outside
00:37:01 to speak to somebody outside that's right okay
00:37:05 and sorry if i may just yes contextualize that i i i found it a little bit strange
00:37:14 strange that he had the year of eleanor kelly and john baradar on the phone they were talking to him about how he was coping and what additional support
00:37:25 was coping and what additional support was required and then
00:37:27 and then nicholas decided to leave the room and have a conversation with someone else outside
00:37:32 outside leaving us sat on the call and i just didn't feel that that was showing
00:37:37 showing a
00:37:38 a the right it wasn't prior necessarily prioritizing in the right way because that call was very important in my mind and did you know who the person was what the circumstances for the need for mr
00:37:51 the circumstances for the need for mr holgates to absent himself no but to be honest with you would have had to be really really important as far as i was concerned but there was no there was no indication of what it related to
00:38:02 related to so you've mentioned this is an important call
00:38:04 call was it the case that was your suggestion that this call should take place it was my suggestion to nicholas holgate that
00:38:14 that he needed additional support and that he should set up the call with john and elena uh john john baradan eleanor kelly yes
00:38:26 uh john john baradan eleanor kelly yes and before it is called did you have contact with john baradel so he was sighted as to the issues you experienced yes
00:38:33 yes and what information did you relay to him
00:38:36 him uh broad form just a general assessment as as described in my statement a lack of situational awareness lack of grip
00:38:48 lack of grip common term but yeah lack of grip they just were not on top of it in a way which i would have expected and therefore
00:38:56 therefore needed help
00:38:59 we you use the phrase concerned a number of times how would you what sort of gradient of concern had you at this stage prior to the call on the 15th of june
00:39:11 prior to the call on the 15th of june sufficient to suggest that that call was important
00:39:17 and did you advise mr baradel as to any suggested course before that call i can't recall but but i think as i mentioned earlier john baradar and i saw
00:39:30 mentioned earlier john baradar and i saw things in a in a similar way and therefore i would expect him to know what was needed and this additional support what did you envisage was going to occur or should occur at this stage
00:39:44 occur or should occur at this stage well i think i think prior to the call the the main aim was to get nicholas to realize he needed help you know and i don't think he he didn't
00:39:56 you know and i don't think he he didn't appreciate that but i think he needed that extra nudge to to to to make it happen as to what that additional support looked like
00:40:07 looked like that was a conversation between nicholas john baradar and eleanor and again i saw it very much as a peer-to-peer chief executive to chief executive conversation
00:40:19 executive conversation in terms of chief executives the juicy london locality gold chris naylor who was at the previous meeting the day before
00:40:28 before wasn't invited to this meeting was there any particular reason why that was i'm not sure of the exact timing but i think there was a clear sense particularly having just come off
00:40:39 particularly having just come off westminster bridge attack the move to critical that the government and uh sort of implemented or and and then finally most recently the london bridge attack and there was fear
00:40:52 london bridge attack and there was fear and concern that there would be another one imminently so rather than tie up chris naylor my understanding was that he would remain available to deal with any other
00:41:05 remain available to deal with any other unrelated incidents in london and there are precedents for for that yes and uh
00:41:12 and uh john baradal in his capacity as chair of lap but more importantly as an experienced chief executive and i think actually that's probably the reason john was prepared to
00:41:23 probably the reason john was prepared to go in there and help on the basis that he had the experience to to try and try and make a difference okay
00:41:30 okay in relation to this meeting which took place
00:41:32 place i think it was five o'clock actually on the 15th of june and no minutes or note of the meeting is that correct correct again
00:41:41 again why was that why was it no note of this important meeting as you described it i think in hindsight it should have been recorded
00:41:47 recorded but at the time i treated it as a similar level of conversation to the previous day so you consider the peer-to-peer yes informal conversation yes
00:41:58 yes but actually on your account these are quite exceptional circumstances correct where you were sufficiently concerned to to arrange a meeting or suggest the meeting was called
00:42:10 meeting was called correct
00:42:16 can you recall whether
00:42:20 whether nicholas holgate was given any advice during that meeting
00:42:25 i don't recall the details of that meeting other than the outcome well tell us what what can you recall after meeting with the obviously i remember nicholas
00:42:36 with the obviously i remember nicholas leaving i remember there would have been a conversation around what support nicholas required um but like i say the the the the my new shy of the
00:42:47 the the the the my new shy of the conversation i don't recall can you assist with the length of the meeting
00:42:52 meeting i would suggest it was probably about 30 minutes
00:42:55 minutes how about the mood of the meeting
00:43:00 supportive how would you describe the the approach of mr holgate at that stage you're talking about how he
00:43:09 he needed to
00:43:11 needed to consider what help he needed and he perhaps hadn't arrived at a v at that view that he needed assistance did that change during a meeting no i think he was receptive the fact that he was very happy to set up the meeting said to me
00:43:24 happy to set up the meeting said to me that he was receptive to any support that was being made available to him and do you recall whether there's any discussion regarding the the actual activation of the london gold
00:43:36 activation of the london gold resolution i don't what i can what i can comment on that
00:43:41 that is that my understanding as a result of that meeting was that john was john baradel was going to go into rbk the next morning to provide direct support and and advice to
00:43:52 direct support and and advice to nicholas
00:43:54 nicholas read himself into the situation understand the issues the structures that were in place
00:44:03 place understand what the resourcing needs were likely to be and then at some point having been reading that the local authority gold arrangements would be
00:44:15 arrangements would be invoked
00:44:16 invoked which would and then allow john barrydale the ability to spend rbkc's money
00:44:24 money and commit resources on behalf of rbkc into the borough for rbkc to then manage and that view of the role of john baradel is that something which you
00:44:37 baradel is that something which you recollect emerged after the meeting or was this something which you recollect emerged during the meeting
00:44:44 meeting it would have it would have
00:44:48 i would suggest it it must have been discussed in terms of going in there the next day during the meeting
00:44:56 is it fair to say that you can't be sure because of the passage of time and the absence of a note very much so
00:45:15 john heddington in his statement recalls paragraph 76 just for the record that on the 15th of june of 1839 you discussed london gold being activated the following day
00:45:27 the following day does that sound correct i think that matches with what i've just described and he states that your discussion was subsequently reflected in the email and let's have a look at that email to age or recollection lfb triple zero six one two
00:45:40 recollection lfb triple zero six one two three six
00:45:46 and again this may be one that the panel have seen
00:45:49 have seen already 1902 you are not subject you're not a recipient of this email but mr hedjan believes that this reflected your discussion
00:46:01 reflected your discussion in light of increasing complexity incidents the recent requests from mutual aid from rbk seen a number of other factors decisions being taken to activate llg to own the incident and support
00:46:11 support directly or bkc kern plan that as of tomorrow morning paul martin 1-0 will go to all bkc to support llag and three other chief execs will be made available to
00:46:23 chief execs will be made available to support aspects of the response was it the case that at this initial stage at seven o'clock on the 15th of june that john baradel wasn't the person who was considered
00:46:34 who was considered to be sent down to
00:46:37 to the town hall but in fact it was a different chief executive paul martin no that that that's not correct uh and and if i may just add a comment about some of the language
00:46:49 some of the language utilized within this email where it talks about taken to activate lag to own the incident
00:46:56 incident lag supports the incident it's it's owned by the category one responder local authority rbkc and in terms of was it i think if if you look at the
00:47:09 was it i think if if you look at the wording of john everington's um sentence starting current plan is as of tomorrow paul martin will go in go into support lag
00:47:20 go into support lag not to perform the role of leg okay thank you for that clarification mr hedington has been asked already about this this morning but i just wanted to see if you had anything to add bear in mind this was meant to reflect your conversation
00:47:34 so the evidence drawing together your recollection on at that meeting or soon after there was discussion regarding activation of london gold we see an
00:47:45 activation of london gold we see an email
00:47:46 email shortly after which reflects a discussion you had with john heddington so on the evening of the 15th of june it's fair to say that activation had been discussed
00:47:58 activation had been discussed and
00:47:59 and agreed correct
00:48:02 agreed that it would happen i'm not party to any of the conversations around exactly when that would happen other than than i expected it the next day hence the email as described but i was
00:48:14 hence the email as described but i was also aware that
00:48:16 that mutual aid was already being facilitated so
00:48:22 so that was an indication to me that support was starting to be um
00:48:27 um generated
00:48:29 generated for the benefit of rbkc and i think also testament to that is the reference in that email about three other chief executives are being made available to support so conversations
00:48:40 available to support so conversations had already started as a result of that 530 call
00:48:45 530 call and your answer predicts the next question really regarding whether there was a delay and if there was any impact of delay so we know it was two o'clock the following day friday the 16th of
00:48:57 the following day friday the 16th of june when it was formally activated and you know why that was why there was that passage of time if i could put it neutrally
00:49:06 neutrally from the evening of the 15th of june to 2 o'clock on the friday the 16th of june before formal activation no i don't know as to why they waited until that point
00:49:17 until that point i can comment on the two o'clock event
00:49:21 event if that would help but but i think it i've referenced previously this this
00:49:27 this this belief that rbkc hadn't quite worked out what support it required and therefore rather than just throw everything at it and and it not to be right it was important to genuinely
00:49:38 be right it was important to genuinely understand what was required so
00:49:41 so i think the immediate need through the mutual aid request was for beck staff and i think uh additional support was then being sort of considered the next morning
00:49:52 morning would you accept there's a tension here between
00:49:56 between forming and understanding of what help the needed and
00:50:00 and the urgent need to provide humanitarian assistance to those affected without doubt
00:50:05 doubt and it's right to say is that by the fri by the thursday evening there was extensive coverage in the media about how that was apparently failing is that correct
00:50:17 correct i to be honest you didn't look at the media that that evening i was busy doing this yes so i would imagine that was the case and in terms of forming the view of what assistance they may need
00:50:29 assistance they may need they had your expertise there for a day actually to to identify that there was significant failings in a number of areas is that correct correct so what benefit would have there have
00:50:41 so what benefit would have there have been bear in mind you were there to assess and identify the need waiting until the following day to two o'clock to formally activate lag as as previously stated i wasn't part of the
00:50:52 previously stated i wasn't part of the discussions around exactly when that transfer would happen and nicholas holgate and john john baradel are probably better placed to do so
00:51:03 do you consider that that was has been termed a limbo period from the 15th over to the 16th where the lag resources weren't fully utilized
00:51:17 there was a i would suggest the um the time spent between 5 30 and perhaps the gold meeting the following morning in in rbkc would have been time well spent for them
00:51:29 would have been time well spent for them to have
00:51:30 to have a genuine
00:51:32 a genuine view of
00:51:33 view of what extra resources they did require i'm not sure that that was delivered
00:51:40 what do you consider now that the london gold
00:51:44 gold resolution should have been formally activated at a sooner stage i think we would all probably have said it should have been invoked on the morning of the 14th but let's say a decision was made on the
00:51:56 but let's say a decision was made on the the 15th as you discussed at this meeting do you think it should have waited until the the following day or should have been done sooner i'd i think it would have been very challenging
00:52:07 challenging for john baradar to have taken
00:52:12 taken a view in terms of what resourcing was required how what what level of support rbkc required without actually going across and seeing it for himself
00:52:24 across and seeing it for himself notwithstanding and i'm forgive me for probing you on this but you mentioned a couple of times how you john baradel worked closely with each other know each
00:52:35 worked closely with each other know each work of the similar minds you would have known what knew what what was going through his mind and the challenges that he faced you could assist him couldn't you i wouldn't question with his decision to wait till
00:52:46 question with his decision to wait till the next morning and really read himself in okay
00:52:51 i'm going to talk about um that sort of post activation period very briefly if i may
00:52:58 may what do you consider to be the main challenges post activation and meeting the needs of those affected by the fire
00:53:08 restoring trust and confidence and making sure that the housing needs of um everyone affected um was was
00:53:20 um was was met in the in the in the most effective way possible
00:53:25 and perhaps we could have a look at paragraph 95 of your statement just to continue
00:53:30 continue that answer
00:53:43 thank you
00:53:48 second line the challenge faced however was the scale in terms of number of residents who sadly lost their lives his significant rehousing need complexities such as the loss of the boilers supporting the lancaster west
00:53:59 boilers supporting the lancaster west estate creating a large er impact footprint
00:54:03 footprint and the local political dynamic and finally the community community reaction which
00:54:08 which from the outset laid the blame on bkc and the tmo and these challenges will have made would have made the response extremely difficult to coordinate from the outset does that
00:54:20 coordinate from the outset does that reflect your evidence as as to the challenges yes it does in relation to larger impact footprint caused by the difficulties in the
00:54:31 caused by the difficulties in the surrounding households what was your understanding of the role london local authority gold held in relation to responsibility for
00:54:42 relation to responsibility for grenfell town tower residents but also those walkway residents i think before i answer that question it is worth just clarifying if i may of
00:54:53 is worth just clarifying if i may of course
00:54:55 course london local authority gold is a coordination role providing resources assets and
00:55:05 and support to the affected borough for it to then deploy and and coordinate and manage i'm sorry managed locally and i think that's played out in terms of how the mutual aid agreement
00:55:17 how the mutual aid agreement um is designed so a a
00:55:21 so a a a an offering local authority places its um resources people at the disposal of the uh the affected borough um
00:55:33 um the role that john baradel moved into in terms of being asked to lead the response was
00:55:44 was a conversation between him and nicholas at two o'clock on that on the 16th the technical details in terms of under what authority
00:55:56 what authority john baradel undertook that lead
00:56:00 lead role for the response is something that you would need to ask nicholas and john baradel about because as i say there is no legal basis
00:56:11 because as i say there is no legal basis upon which local authority gold leads a response within a borough so in terms of just clarifying that point i think
00:56:23 just clarifying that point i think that's for me was important to share in terms of what john did agree in terms of whether it was the the the tower whether it was the footprint
00:56:35 footprint again i think that is a conversation that you would need to to have with nicholas and and and john but as far as i'm concerned um john's
00:56:46 um john's role was
00:56:48 role was providing
00:56:49 providing an effective response to those people um directly affected by the incident
00:56:59 move on please sorry my apologies i'd refer people to the bsr the brief survivors residents um affected by the incident because you know that's worthy of remembering
00:57:15 okay i'm going to move on if that's okay to just
00:57:19 just briefly
00:57:21 briefly touch upon an assessment of the humanitarian response once led by london gold from the 16th of june
00:57:29 you were closely supporting willian were you not john baradel over these coming days yes i
00:57:38 was and from that
00:57:42 from that view
00:57:43 view close-up and assisting john baradel how long did you think it took for london gold to be able to effectively and adequately meet the humanitarian needs of those affected by the fire
00:57:58 as to my apologies as to meeting the needs of those people affected i think you would need to as to when that occurred i think every every
00:58:09 that occurred i think every every individual every bsr will have their own views in terms of when their needs were actually met what i would suggest is that by by the sunday
00:58:18 sunday there were structures in place to ensure that there was an an effective support could be mounted so the saturday the 17th a lot of time
00:58:29 so the saturday the 17th a lot of time and effort was spent on creating for once a better word an organization from scratch so this had never been done before we needed to bring in the right expertise the right
00:58:41 bring in the right expertise the right people to
00:58:42 people to make sure that we could
00:58:46 we could make the difference that was required so then i would suggest by by the sunday we were in a much stronger position to to try and go out and and put into place
00:58:57 to try and go out and and put into place what was required it's been described as a standing start sort of the grenville fire response team were had had to make a standing start on the friday and saturday
00:59:08 the friday and saturday of that of that weekend correct and we were very fortunate that uh there was appropriate accommodation in westminster and and although you know ideally we would have not had
00:59:20 you know ideally we would have not had to
00:59:21 to leave the rbkc offices on the friday evening but as a result of the demo etc it was the prudent decision to make but it did then lead to us locating in a far more
00:59:33 lead to us locating in a far more suitable location more far more conducive to multi-agency collaboration and and getting everybody in the one place to mount a concerted
00:59:45 in the one place to mount a concerted coordinated response so it took time to put in the structures because this hadn't been done before structures are in place by closer play perhaps on sunday yeah
00:59:57 perhaps on sunday yeah i would i would need to check my records but yeah around that time if during sunday was was when um we started to break through the
01:00:09 break through the the
01:00:10 the the pressure of setting it up and actually start to really get into into the meaningful work yes
01:00:17 yes and we know that there was a press statement on the evening of the sunday with eleanor kelly and the british red cross
01:00:25 cross correct which probably symbolized the grenville fire response team starting in in earnest and then well it started sorry i hope you don't mind
01:00:36 sorry i hope you don't mind there was we didn't stop and just set up there was
01:00:40 there was still actions being delivered through that through the saturday and sunday
01:00:46 sunday but but clearly the priority was to create the structure because without the structure you don't have that coordinated coherent approach and does it follow that for those
01:00:57 and does it follow that for those reasons it took a number of days to make
01:01:02 to make a material difference to the response
01:01:08 i i couldn't say as to whether it was was several days um because my focus others may have a view i i don't have a view on that because my focus was very
01:01:20 view on that because my focus was very much on getting the thing into a fit state
01:01:24 state to make a difference
01:01:27 perhaps another way to express is this is that issues did continue for a number of days didn't they in relation to communication with those at hotels the west way
01:01:38 those at hotels the west way and similar issues without doubt and and one of the key key challenges was the lack of data and so it was to some extent and not that i directly
01:01:50 to some extent and not that i directly led on any of that work but but there was a significant challenge in terms of gathering the data and making sense of it and again it's probably obvious from
01:02:02 and again it's probably obvious from your answer but data is in relation to the identification of those who were affected
01:02:09 affected yes yeah
01:02:10 yes yeah where they'd been located which hotels things things like that things that were essential to mount
01:02:18 to mount an effective humanitarian response and and there was a lot of uncertainty in those first few days and would you expect that from your experience to have those
01:02:29 those that lack of data so many days after an incident no i wouldn't ex i would expect to have strong data three four days after the after the
01:02:41 three four days after the after the event
01:02:44 i'm gonna move on to the last part of our of our questions to you and your evidence remember with three parts and this is the post granville tower fire
01:02:55 granville tower fire reviews which took place and with your assistance we're going to navigate through some of those and your updated ep 2020 review and perhaps cover some of the matters
01:03:06 and perhaps cover some of the matters you've raised in your second and third statement
01:03:12 so you've set outs in your first statement a number of the post-fire reviews which took place in the london civil resilience framework since 2017 supplemented by your second statement in april 2022
01:03:24 april 2022 and your third most recent statement provides some final thoughts the one that you provided on thursday following a period as you describe reflection yes and and preparing to give evidence
01:03:36 evidence if perhaps we could open gol401346 please
01:03:43 this is what we mentioned already the
01:03:46 the ep 2020 emergency planning in the 2020s april 2018 refresh
01:03:54 and that contains we're not going to go through them all 27 recommendations is that correct correct
01:04:01 and is it right that in preparing this refresh report you also reviewed your original ep 2020 report draft in october 2016. correct and that had 14
01:04:13 2016. correct and that had 14 recommendations and you also considered two post-fire reviews which we can see touched upon under background let's look at the first one
01:04:24 one it says this on the 7th of february the the local authorities panel endorsed a high-level implementation plan designed to address 11 recommendations contained in the i
01:04:36 11 recommendations contained in the i want to emphasize this the independent peer challenge review conducted by tom riordan and mary nay between october 2017
01:04:45 2017 and february 2018.
01:04:51 tom and mary if you could turn over leaf please page two tom and mary noted that recommendations for a local government emergency planning resilience ep 2020 report contained a range of recommendations
01:05:02 recommendations that are in the process of implementation and endorse this improvement work then goes on to make further recommendations to build on ep 2020.
01:05:13 let's have a look at this document briefly
01:05:16 briefly gol50146 so this is the independent peer challenge review january 2018
01:05:29 we see a page one and perhaps we could turn over to page two please
01:05:37 and we'll just deal with the introduction independent period challenge was commissioned in october 2017 as we just heard by the london council leaders committee who wanted an independent view about the arrangements that underpin
01:05:49 about the arrangements that underpin london local government's collaborative resilience work the peer challenge had an agreed scope in light of the unprecedented challenges faced between march and september 2017
01:06:00 faced between march and september 2017 posing there that was your point this morning that it wasn't just the grenfell tower
01:06:05 tower but there was a number of events in 2017 like we've heard mr adamson the british red cross describe it as a sort of watershed year in terms of emergency
01:06:17 watershed year in terms of emergency planning not sure if you agree with that term unprecedented watershed unprecedented if we the second paragraph the focus of this work was fitness of the collective response not individual
01:06:30 response not individual bureau
01:06:31 bureau arrangements perhaps we could turn over please to par page 3 please
01:06:40 and under findings and we look at paragraph 7 we can see grenville tower fire is in there and i'm going to just deal with the four lines from the bottom the peer review
01:06:52 lines from the bottom the peer review team heard from several stakeholders that the grenfell tower fire had undermined confidence in vital elements of the london local government's collect resilience arrangements
01:07:03 resilience arrangements many of the recommendations are intended to address these issues and help restore confidence is that right is that a fair summary i think it is yes
01:07:14 i think it is yes so this was the first of two reports which you considered let's turn to the second one which is called the assurance framework review gol401596
01:07:32 providing individual and collective assurance
01:07:35 assurance and that's sean roos february 2018 we could turn to page two please look at the circumstances again
01:07:44 again executive summary the review was commissioned by the city of london corporation on behalf of the local authorities panel in january 2018 objectively reviews to recommend the means by which london local government
01:07:57 means by which london local government can individually and collectively assure their organization's preparedness particularly their capacity and capability through a credible transparent effective and
01:08:08 and cost efficient forgive me and cost effective approach is that right correct
01:08:14 correct we could have a look at page three please
01:08:21 and the third paragraph which may chime with something you say in one of your later statements this was in the 2018 report there was a widespread view that there is limited
01:08:33 widespread view that there is limited involvement in emergency planning and resilience across most organizations with most responsibility wrestling with emergency planning teams and chief executives this review looks at the challenge of embedding a culture of emergency
01:08:45 embedding a culture of emergency planning and resilience across an organization in a way that reflects the health and safety culture it becomes everyone's business
01:08:57 so in relation to that this was mentioned in 2018 do you consider that as still a current issue yes i do
01:09:07 could we also go to page 14 please paragraph 3.12.
01:09:20 it talks about statutory duties in relation to planning and recovery
01:09:27 and i want to just read out this aspect four lines down quote on more than one occasion recovery was described as the cinderella for emergency planning with a view that this was replicated across the
01:09:38 view that this was replicated across the country
01:09:39 country there is little evidence to suggest the same level of tension has been paid to the recovery phase of an emergency incident as it is to preparedness and response despite this being the lead role of
01:09:50 despite this being the lead role of local authorities the long-term impact this will have on people and businesses in the local community and the potential risks to credibility and reputation of a local authority again this is three years ago in 2018
01:10:03 again this is three years ago in 2018 enough four years ago do you agree with the description here that recovery is the cinderella of emergency planning
01:10:13 recovery is fundamental to local authorities
01:10:21 restoring recovering allowing the community the area to recover following a large-scale emergency and
01:10:32 emergency and um it is a local authority lead responsibility yep i think we understand what recovery is but do you agree with the description which is said on this report that it's it's down as this
01:10:44 it's down as this cinderella that it's not given the attention the same level of tension as paid to the other phases i would suggest yes then
01:10:55 and as we've touched upon already your from the consideration of these two reports
01:11:00 reports and your previous reports ep 20 you considered and consolidated these into your ep 2020 refresh is that correct correct
01:11:13 refresh is that correct correct so with all this work that you were undertaking in your report what did you consider the most important area perhaps that needed to be changed or attention needed to be put on
01:11:26 attention needed to be put on i think the most important area was linked to the comments about it being everybody's business it was about moving away from this reliance
01:11:37 moving away from this reliance of the selected few to
01:11:40 to organization ownership and the role and sorry and elements of resilience emergency planning
01:11:51 planning being
01:11:52 being overseen and driven by by the relevant departments the experts within those departments rather rather than it all resting with emergency planners
01:12:05 emergency planners and that's one of the phrases you use in your third statement which is embedding the philosophy of resilience is everybody's business you consider that to be a key feature moving forward is that correct i do and
01:12:18 moving forward is that correct i do and and a lot of work has been done to engage with various professional networks
01:12:25 networks directors of coms directors of housing to really embed that philosophy that they should be taking far more ownership of areas which best sit with them
01:12:42 i'm going to move on to a number of areas five areas in fact which are recommendations and matters of discussion in ep 2020
01:12:53 discussion in ep 2020 deal with standards we have msls minimum standards of london we'll move on to resilience standards for london in a moment the review of the gold resolution community resilience
01:13:05 community resilience learnings from previous humanitarian responses and training so we're going to touch upon those and and draw a few threads together but before i do so the first one is resilient standards for london
01:13:16 london and perhaps mr chairman that may be a a moment for a natural break but i can well i assume that that's going to take you a little while to deal with those yes and then i think if your sense will have a break now and thank you
01:13:29 have a break now and thank you well um so sorry i think it's time we had a short break we'll stop now we'll come back please at half past three and then we'll carry on and while you're out please don't talk to anyone about
01:13:40 out please don't talk to anyone about your evidence of course thank you
01:13:51 thank you very much thank you please thank you
01:30:56 would you ask mr sawyer to come back in please
01:31:10 right mr sawyer ready to carry on very much good thank you very much yes mr keating thank you mr chairman well welcome back mr story was going to deal with one of the first areas which flew flew flowed from your
01:31:22 flew flowed from your ep 2020 report refresh report and we have that right in front of us now if we can see recommendation two which is this all london local authorities adopt the assurance
01:31:33 authorities adopt the assurance framework recommended in the sean ruth review
01:31:35 review 2018 and commits to credible self-assessment locally led by chief executives and overseen by members which focuses on capacity and capability and organizational commitment to the
01:31:47 organizational commitment to the resilience agenda this local assurance is supported by sub-regional peer challenge and external independent peer review
01:31:54 review so that was one of your core recommendations isn't that correct correct and that to be overseen by the local authority panel we see it we don't need to turn to a recommendation 23.
01:32:05 need to turn to a recommendation 23. so in relation to that core recommendation is it right that the resilience standards for london were launched in july 2019 and they replaced the minimum standards for london correct
01:32:17 the minimum standards for london correct and again perhaps you could assist us perhaps briefly it may not be maybe a bit difficult to do so but how did a resilient standards for london differ or are an improvement from the minimum standards for london
01:32:30 minimum standards for london both in content and approach
01:32:34 approach in terms of content it took 11 key thematic areas and focused on core
01:32:45 core areas of resilience which local authorities as organizationally wide should should apply so it wasn't very much it wasn't solely focused on
01:32:57 very much it wasn't solely focused on the potentially the role of the emergency plan as the resilient standards for london now focus on the responsibilities of organizations as a whole
01:33:06 a whole in terms of approach um we've talked about minimum standards for london having an element of sub-regional peer challenge that was very light touch and it was emergency planners peer-reviewing emergency planners
01:33:17 emergency planners it it didn't quite work from my perspective so this now applies a three layered approach with the lga currently providing that
01:33:28 with the lga currently providing that external p independent impartial
01:33:32 impartial sorry same word independent peer challenge um which adds uh a more robust layer of of of of of sort
01:33:43 a more robust layer of of of of of sort of the process so three layers let's let's remind everyone what's layer one and layer two layer one is the local self-assessment yes
01:33:53 yes layer two is sub-regional um
01:33:56 um good practice workshops so that's not necessarily a a review of of of every standard in in in detail but what it is is an
01:34:09 in detail but what it is is an opportunity for boroughs to learn from other boroughs again linking to some of the emphasis behind the original minimum standards for london which was around identifying common
01:34:20 identifying common trends issues that need to be addressed and as i say the third component is that lga peer peer peer challenge part of the process lga being local government
01:34:32 process lga being local government association yes my partner jesus i'd like us just to explore that theme of peer challenge and that
01:34:42 that as a theme perhaps you could look at your third statement j g o l four zeros one eight four seven please
01:34:53 and we can turn to page two thank you paragraph nine
01:35:02 so this is what you've written down in terms of
01:35:05 terms of areas
01:35:06 areas if you just scroll up just for a moment please we see paragraph six we touch upon that already embedding the philosophy of resilience is everyone's business that was one of the
01:35:17 the key factors you mentioned and let's move to another one of the key factors which is in bold at paragraph nine establishing an assurance process that is mandatory and enforceable
01:35:28 and enforceable let's read paragraph 10 please i believe the resilient standards for london provide the means by which all london local authorities can effectively assess preparedness across the organization
01:35:39 organization and we see there your views as to it's been utilized
01:35:45 utilized and if the approach is adopted by individual local authorities and applied it will allow senior officers and local politicians to maintain effective oversight
01:35:53 oversight and appropriate levels of transparency for communities to be cited and preparedness i'm summarizing because we have it in front of us and perhaps more selective reading whether it's summarizing but this is the part i'd like us your
01:36:05 but this is the part i'd like us your your assistance upon to date i believe there are varying levels of senior level commitment to oresl's resilience standards for london and the local authority panel which oversaw the
01:36:17 local authority panel which oversaw the development of them does not have the authority to insist that boroughs adopt the full approach currently signing up to the local government association facilitated peer challenge is optional thank you for
01:36:29 challenge is optional thank you for turning over and the local authorities panel does not have the means of establishing a robust rolling program to ensure all 32 local authorities and the city of london undergo external
01:36:40 and the city of london undergo external challenge
01:36:41 challenge a solution is required to ensure individual and collective strengths and weaknesses in local authority resilience arrangements are generally understood shared and addressed big paragraph a lot of information in
01:36:53 big paragraph a lot of information in there
01:36:56 how many local authorities to date have not signed up to the local government association facilitated peer challenge i believe currently three have undergone
01:37:07 i believe currently three have undergone the process as part of the pilot process the pilot review um and
01:37:12 um and as part of the pilot process um but to date i'm not aware of any other local authority asking um to be peer reviewed peer challenge let's see
01:37:22 let's see so three out of 33 have asked to be to have asked and participated in the peer challenge yeah it's worth contextually appreciating that the process
01:37:34 appreciating that the process was paused during covet yes and so it is expected that reinstating the process will start this year my point is
01:37:45 my point is that whilst it remains optional there is a risk
01:37:49 a risk that some local authorities won't necessarily buy into the full process and apply as intended and the first paragraph the first line of this paragraph is your belief as you
01:38:01 of this paragraph is your belief as you set out in your statement something which you volunteered to inquiry last late last week you believe that there are varying levels of senior level commitment to ourselves and the local authority panel is that the position
01:38:13 authority panel is that the position some of that that that view is based on some anecdotal evidence yes um some evidence to suggest that the standards the self-assessments are
01:38:25 the standards the self-assessments are being completed by emergency planning teams
01:38:28 teams as compared to being overseen and and and worked on by senior officers so so it's it's it is flagging a a risk in the process and system
01:38:40 process and system that it that that through more effective and enforceable management of the process would address and how could that be achieved you talk
01:38:51 and how could that be achieved you talk about a solution is required and you mention
01:38:54 mention something which is more effective and a forcible management of the process you had a magic wand what how would you achieve that if if i knew how to achieve that i'd probably have included in the statement uh
01:39:06 have included in the statement uh prodigies to be flippant but it would require some either
01:39:13 either government-led policy
01:39:17 policy included in some level of legislation legislation perhaps what i've done by recording this is just highlighting to me the risk that remains whilst this is an optional process
01:39:30 whilst this is an optional process so optional process and the local authority panel don't have the the power to enforce this exactly so it's it's dependent as we heard already
01:39:42 dependent as we heard already as was in relation to msls dependent on the individual local authority adherence and commitment to
01:39:51 to resilience isn't that correct yeah and and yeah at the right level
01:39:57 let's move on to central government which is sort of you've talked about government involvement it is it correct the central government do not have a formal role in the assessment or inspection of emergency
01:40:08 assessment or inspection of emergency planning and resilience at a local level that is
01:40:12 that is not of uh local authorities now no so they they they don't participate in any local assurance framework no
01:40:23 if we could go back to the assurance framework review by sean ruth please gol
01:40:29 gol quadruple 0-1596 at page 16 please
01:40:37 this is something you considered when doing your ep 2020 refresh paragraph 4.9
01:40:48 it is clear the central governments do not have plans at this time to put in place any process that imposes mandates or regulates local authorities in addition to legislation that currently exists however given its role in national resilience arrangements and its
01:41:00 national resilience arrangements and its relationship with local resilience forums
01:41:02 forums there could be an enhanced role in supporting local authorities where it's appropriate to do so on a voluntary basis at the request of the local organization that talks about peer
01:41:13 organization that talks about peer review and training and development you see peer review at the bottom of that page so we don't need to turn over training and development and you're asked your views regarding
01:41:24 and you're asked your views regarding this in your second statement and perhaps we could turn to your second statement please gol quadruple 01839
01:41:35 about the options in relation to central government involvement
01:41:41 and paragraph 59 thank you
01:41:46 thank you so much
01:41:49 and this is what the question was asked overleaf really in relation to this aspect of the assurance framework review and your answer is this a number of options were
01:42:00 answer is this a number of options were explored during an insurance review to determine the most appropriate methods of external and independent challenge options included a government inspectorate ruled out early during discussions with
01:42:11 ruled out early during discussions with ccs
01:42:12 ccs civil contingency secretariat is that correct yes correct
01:42:17 correct do you know why it was ruled out in those early discussions with the civil contingency secretariat no those were would have been conversations between sean ruth and the ccs not something you've got knowledge of in your dealings
01:42:29 knowledge of in your dealings i'm going to continue from paragraph 59 a national public sector body such as the local government association which you touched upon moments ago a private sector organization is one of the big four accounting firms and
01:42:40 the big four accounting firms and subject matter expert sme commissions specifically for the work
01:42:50 and then we've paragraph 60 one of the options discussed was the ccs matching peers from across the lrf system to london borough for peer review purposes this
01:43:01 borough for peer review purposes this option was not explored further due to other priorities within the ccs do you know why that was what the other priorities were
01:43:11 were as alluded to here no again i wasn't parties to those conversations although i'm reading from your statement yes
01:43:19 yes you're
01:43:20 you're summarizing what the position is but you're not able to assist with what the what underpins that information no and and provided in the spirit of sharing as much as i can
01:43:35 and has also understood that consideration has been given to adopting this processor national standards too so against that background you then say this
01:43:48 there is bottom of paragraph 62 there's however merit in the government further considering its role and the value of assembling an independent peer review team as this would connect emergency
01:44:00 team as this would connect emergency planning and resilience work being undertaken at national regional and local level so this is your second statement we perhaps may have fast forwarded to your
01:44:11 perhaps may have fast forwarded to your third statement already and it's a similar topic but in relation to that last matter um
01:44:18 um what's your view about what could be done to connect emergency planning at national regional and local level
01:44:27 i i would suggest that um further conversations on the the proposal is detailed there in terms of the viability of that etc i think would be uh an effective way of
01:44:39 think would be uh an effective way of linking national through to through to local
01:44:42 local um
01:44:43 um i think uh aligning the the approach that we apply in london via the lga which is a national organization um to to to approaches across the rest
01:44:54 um to to to approaches across the rest of the country because because you know it's
01:44:57 it's it's fair to say that uh london has its unique ways of working but actually there's lots of learning and lots of sharing to be done across the country as well um so that's another way of of
01:45:09 um so that's another way of of addressing that but i think um what we were keen to do sorry what i was keen to do was get the current approach re-established get full buy-in from all 33 to that
01:45:21 get full buy-in from all 33 to that approach
01:45:23 approach assess the the value that that approach applies the success for once a better word and then determine as to whether there's any further work to be done on on on aligning it
01:45:34 work to be done on on on aligning it nationally
01:45:37 so work in progress and currently do you think that there is this connection between local regional and national resilience
01:45:53 in terms of uh assurance yes yeah
01:45:57 yes yeah i think
01:45:58 i think i think there's there's the the the two layers of of assurance currently applied with several layers one one is the layer in which um
01:46:08 um lrfs
01:46:09 lrfs and the multi-agency aspect is is is is is is assessed um
01:46:15 um via the national approach and we obviously have our sector specific local authority approach i i i i
01:46:23 i i i i it's something that uh i'm not don't have sufficient detail to be able to provide any further sort of comment on that at this point well i'm going to move on to um
01:46:35 well i'm going to move on to um a second area which is a review of the gold resolution and addendum that's something which is identified in your ep 2020 refresh report under heading governance governance
01:46:47 governance governance recommendation eight and it was recommended that that should be there should be a review consider options to make triggers and escalation process clear is that right
01:46:59 escalation process clear is that right yes
01:47:02 if you could turn to gol five zeros 146 please this is something in the independent period challenge and turn to page 14 please paragraph 20
01:47:13 and turn to page 14 please paragraph 20 h
01:47:19 four lines down it says this there's also a need for greater clarity about the different roles of the borough gold llag and chair of the local authority panel in the context of the gold
01:47:30 panel in the context of the gold resolution including extending this clarity to handling the communications and the media entered a handover from response to recovery the peer challenge identified an appetite to quickly strengthen the
01:47:41 appetite to quickly strengthen the current gold resolution to increase the leverage of llag through the lap chair and to provide a more proactive and speedy response in exceptional circumstances for example
01:47:53 in exceptional circumstances for example when a borough needs help but does not request it is that right that's the sort of context which was highlighted in the independent peer challenge report correct which flowed into the recommendation you made
01:48:05 flowed into the recommendation you made in your report yes
01:48:14 a latter progress report which again i don't think we need to look at what happened was in relation to your ep 2020 there was an implementation report which was which was completed and a
01:48:26 which was which was completed and a progress report which was provided to london councils and and one of those was provided in july 2019 and in that there's reference that um after legal advice that it was
01:48:41 that um after legal advice that it was not possible in simple terms to activate the gold resolution without the consent of the local authority in question is that correct yes correct so in very
01:48:51 in very simple terms john baradel couldn't have decided curtin stepped in of his own volition and took control uh going back to my comment this morning no legal basis upon
01:49:03 comment this morning no legal basis upon which to intervene that all concerned the interpretation of the statutory powers under section 138 of the local government act 1972. yes so in light of that advice
01:49:15 1972. yes so in light of that advice received
01:49:17 received and is it a position the local authority panel developed guidance in august 2018 for chief executives correct in relation to the gold resolution and its activation yes
01:49:29 activation yes and it may be obvious what was the purpose of this guidance it was to clarify how the gold arrangements are are activated and applied and and the breadth of of the um
01:49:42 and and the breadth of of the um the responsibility
01:49:46 and in your view do you consider that that guidance addresses the concerns raised in the peer challenge review i think it strengthens understanding and if we have stronger understanding it's
01:49:57 if we have stronger understanding it's more likely that that
01:49:59 that the misunderstandings that potentially occurred in the early stages of the grenfell response won't occur again
01:50:08 let's have a look at your second statement in relation to this gol401839
01:50:15 paragraph 10 please on page two
01:50:23 this really just fleshes out your view that the guidance assists greater understanding you mentioned paragraph 10 instruction and how the guidance should be applied is delivered in three ways
01:50:36 is delivered in three ways shared with chief executives as part of their induction into local authority regional resilience arrangements correct correct
01:50:43 correct reference in the more detailed london local authority gold lag briefing session provided by london resilience group the chief executives correct and finally incorporate into pre-on-call
01:50:54 finally incorporate into pre-on-call briefings
01:50:55 briefings so something which is mentioned a lot of chief executives in the role as london local authority gold correct it's also incorporated into london local authority gold operating procedure which
01:51:06 authority gold operating procedure which is shared with all chief executives correct has that been improved in terms of the process as to activation in your view
01:51:14 view the the major shift is is a an increased emphasis on proactivity and i think we've seen in incidents
01:51:25 and i think we've seen in incidents recently over the last couple of years where that proactivity has led to earlier conversations between local authority gold and the affected borough's gold
01:51:37 affected borough's gold to assess whether whether additional support is required or not
01:51:42 or not you touch upon that in relation to more recent exercises and how provides an opportunity to secure understanding about how the effective borrower was addressing demands and proactively ensured availability of wider support
01:51:55 availability of wider support was it was understood by all and coordinated required correct and by including in the exercises we're not only
01:52:02 only making sure that local authority gold performing that role in the exercise fully understands it but that knowledge is shared across other golds from other boroughs so more guidance
01:52:14 so more guidance better understanding more
01:52:16 more proactivity yes
01:52:20 yes turn on to the mayor of london if i may please
01:52:23 please and in relation to the role of the mayor of london and in london resilience we've heard that his role is not operational but it's to act as the voice of london is that correct correct
01:52:33 correct what is your view as a suggestion which is made by the mayor of london in their opening submissions to this module that there may be a need for the formal role of the mayor of london in a civil
01:52:45 role of the mayor of london in a civil emergency to be expanded and carefully defined circumstances to require the invocation of mutual aid and appropriate leadership arrangements
01:52:56 leadership arrangements in other words it seems to have some role in the activation of the gold resolution i would i would suggest that that may well be legally challenging to to find a solution to
01:53:08 challenging to to find a solution to that
01:53:09 that um but that said i believe that by better defining the role of local authority gold by establishing that proactive approach to ensuring
01:53:22 proactive approach to ensuring that we don't wait to be asked we actually asked the local authority gold asks do you need help and support by applying that more proactive approach
01:53:34 proactive approach we will hopefully have addressed the concerns that arose during grenfell let's look at your statement please second statement thank you j j g o l
01:53:44 j g o l four zeros one eight three nine page six please you're asked this question question forty eight
01:53:55 question forty eight and the question was as part of your work undertaken in your ep 2020 refresh report what consideration has been given to the role of the mayor of london and you say paragraph 49 i'm not aware
01:54:07 and you say paragraph 49 i'm not aware of any consideration been given to the role of the mayor of london but in the work undertaken to deliver the original ep 2020 prospectus that's the 2016 and the ep 20 refresh report beyond that
01:54:19 and the ep 20 refresh report beyond that of delivering the voice of london is that correct
01:54:25 that is correct and if we could turn over leaf please the paragraph 50.
01:54:33 during the simplification simplification process associated to the llg operation procedure
01:54:39 procedure it was determined not to include reference to the role of the mayor the mayor's role is however included in the london strategic coordination framework and incorporate into the lag arrangements briefings to chief executives and
01:54:51 executives and relevant exercises
01:54:56 and lastly question eight in this supplementary statement you were asked has there been any requests or any identified needs to expand the mayor's role from beyond being the voice of london to an
01:55:07 being the voice of london to an operational role requests in part of your work in the ep 2020 refresh considerations of the two other reports and your answer is at
01:55:18 other reports and your answer is at paragraph 52 i'm not aware of any requests and or identified need to expand the mayor's role is that the position correct in relation to an
01:55:29 position correct in relation to an expanded role for the mayor is there anything else you consider it's necessary to to add to that not at this time
01:55:38 training it was recommended in the ep 2020 refresh
01:55:44 refresh report that all chief executives and their deputies attend periodical training events and participate in a structured exercise program to prepare them to undertake llag duties
01:55:56 llag duties and that's something which is i believe recommendation 20. was that recommendation made because there was an identified gap in training provided
01:56:07 provided hit or two in in relation to performing the role of local authority gold
01:56:15 gold i i think there was an identified need to ensure that training was delivered and that there was appropriate opportunities for for exercising of of that role
01:56:24 that role and
01:56:25 and and
01:56:27 and on occasions exercising opportunities can be few and far between so the question was how can we improve that and ensure that
01:56:38 all 33 local authorities undertook an appropriate level of training in that role
01:56:47 in your in your view was there a need to improve training for chief executives for the lla role yes there was it is evidenced in inquiry nicholas
01:56:58 it is evidenced in inquiry nicholas holgate stated this day 273 page 223 line 19 i think the ability to deal to the quality that we would all want our ability to address the needs of the
01:57:10 our ability to address the needs of the survivors that believe in others after tragedy scale would require an intensity and an extent of preparation which to me in all probability goes well beyond what was then expected even of a compliant
01:57:22 was then expected even of a compliant authority
01:57:24 authority do you consider that the training which is available pre-june 2017 was sufficient to equip a chief executive or a council gold to
01:57:36 a chief executive or a council gold to respond to an instance such as grenfell i think we need to delineate
01:57:42 delineate training
01:57:43 training in terms of the local authority gold roll to training that should
01:57:49 should be delivered to anybody performing the role of gold council gold yes and i think if you don't mind me saying um on the on the day of of the fire
01:58:01 um on the on the day of of the fire nicholas holgate was performing the role of council gold not local authority gold so the local authority gold training builds on
01:58:10 builds on training that should be delivered locally
01:58:14 locally so it's two levels the local authority is responsible for training it's its own effectively yes very much so and then the gold the local authority gold training
01:58:24 training places that knowledge experience into a regional context and that regional context is a coordination role not a command and control
01:58:36 control so in your wider work we were able to identify any deficits in terms of the training which is available at the local level local authority level in relation to council goals no
01:58:48 in relation to council goals no we
01:58:49 we never delved into that level of detail in terms of what was being delivered locally
01:58:54 locally i'm going to move on to community resilience fourth of
01:58:59 fourth of coming to the end of questions now mr sawyer so in relation to community resilience and community engagement again these were recommendations um in your ep 2020 report six and 24
01:59:12 um in your ep 2020 report six and 24 that borough's local authorities recognize the importance of community resilience and have clear communication engagement and liaison plans in place
01:59:23 and liaison plans in place with strong relationships across each sector
01:59:26 sector that are well connected to emergency plans and understands the impact of incidents on their communities so i've combined probably two recommendations together but in essence in terms of community resilience
01:59:38 in terms of community resilience was it the case that there was an identified need for real improvements yes
01:59:47 and that was in part as a result of grenfell tower is that correct the need to improve community resilience yes
01:59:57 is it the case that the london resilience partnership community steering group was set up as a result of the work you recommended and that's chaired by the chief executive of londonburg hammersman
02:00:09 executive of londonburg hammersman fulham
02:00:10 fulham that's correct it was chaired by that chief executive and this london resilience partnership community steering group was established in 2018 provide advice guidance and support to other local authorities in relation to
02:00:22 other local authorities in relation to this area is that correct correct
02:00:27 and developing community resilience a review was a document prepared by that steering group in july 2019 and that identified a number of principles including quote the need to maintain
02:00:39 including quote the need to maintain deep respect and value the role of communities and community organizations is that correct correct and something which you touch upon in your second statement that the resilient
02:00:52 your second statement that the resilient london resilience forum funded a community resilience coordinator and you state at paragraph 28 that work is also likely to begin soon to build on
02:01:03 is also likely to begin soon to build on community resilience activities and support local authorities and other stakeholders at local level so drawing it up all together a relationship coordinating coordinator
02:01:14 relationship coordinating coordinator role is that something which is still pending at this stage i'm not cited on the status of that wrong that is is uh an lrf funded role that's been hosted by the gla
02:01:27 role that's been hosted by the gla greater london authority the time of your second statement which was april 2022 it's it's classified as ongoing rather than completed
02:01:37 completed i haven't had an update on that wrong so in relation to the matters as to
02:01:44 as to you recommended in relation to community resilience and community engagement do you consider those
02:01:50 those two features are sufficient to
02:01:54 to bring about the recommendations you identified an ep 2020 refresh i think that the
02:02:03 the to genuinely support
02:02:07 support the community to be more resilient takes
02:02:12 takes lots of activity at a very local level to make a difference so the work of the steering group produced
02:02:21 produced guidance it's a bit like we talked about previously the role of lap in terms of producing guidance and and helping to provide tools for for local authorities
02:02:32 provide tools for for local authorities to to implement locally that was a similar motivation behind that guidance document to then allow the various agencies and about allow local authorities to consider that guidance
02:02:44 authorities to consider that guidance and look at what it meant in terms of applying it locally and i think we also need to be mindful of the fact that there was
02:02:53 there was the fantastic community effort
02:02:57 effort both in grenfell but also during covid the covid response and
02:03:04 and relationships between community
02:03:08 community faith voluntary sector and the funders sector
02:03:12 sector was really reinforced during that period and we're currently in a position whereby i believe london funders which is a an umbrella organization um representing a significant number of
02:03:24 representing a significant number of community groups etc are leading on work to further strengthen those relationships strengthen those networks and again provide another conduit for
02:03:35 for supporting the conversation on community resilience via the gla coordinator all the way through to the local ward level activity with it within local authorities so
02:03:46 authorities so um
02:03:47 um as to whether those those recommendations have been actually delivered it's it it has to continue to be work in
02:03:58 it's it it has to continue to be work in progress but it's just been discharged through a different route in some respects is an unfair question because it's just a start isn't it yes you never you'll never complete
02:04:09 you never you'll never complete community resilience in its entirety will always be a work in progress it's just making sure that the right level of support is available to to deliver it and is it right that there is a
02:04:20 is a interplay between community resilience and the resilience standards of london that's something which there is a specific standard in relation to community engagement yeah and and that that
02:04:30 that documents quite clearly what good looks like
02:04:34 like finally in relation to this topic is whether you can have any views as to the requirements under the cca civil contingency act regulations regulation 23
02:04:46 23 whether a category one responder where it says must have regard to the activities of the voluntary organizations when carrying on their activities whether you consider that
02:04:57 whether you consider that regulation framework is sufficient or whether there needs to be more in relation to that i i think you can never downplay the important role of
02:05:09 important role of voluntary sector faith sector the community as a whole and i think i think there is um anything that can be done to further reinforce um the importance of that
02:05:22 um the importance of that has to be considered i'm i don't have the answer but i think i think it has to be reinforced yes
02:05:29 let me move on to the fifth area which is learning from previous humanitarian responses so one of the recommendations recommended at the local authorities panel commission a review of current plans and exercising so as to build on
02:05:42 plans and exercising so as to build on learnings from the experience of humanitarian welfare response provided to victims and survivors in 2017
02:05:52 can you assist in relation to progress of that what was that what was the scope of this review of current plans and exercising as part of that recommendation is there a way you can put that up on screen because yes of
02:06:04 can put that up on screen because yes of course i can if you don't mind if we could bring up please um
02:06:09 um gol
02:06:11 gol zero zero four zeros one three four six and just like magic there it is thank you so much so it's recommendation 18. yeah okay
02:06:23 yeah okay okay just give you a moment it's quite a dense paragraph building on learning from the experience of humanitarian welfare response in 2017. okay fine i can i can update you on that
02:06:35 okay fine i can i can update you on that as a result of this um the local authorities panel um
02:06:40 um established a humanitarian assistance program
02:06:44 program which had
02:06:46 which had input at a strategic level from
02:06:50 from the directors of adult social services within london led by an emergency planning manager with experience of recent incidents affecting
02:07:01 affecting communities and
02:07:04 and that program contained a number of work streams of which over the last two or three years work has been progressed and i believe i provided an update to
02:07:17 and i believe i provided an update to the enquiry of the status of that program i can assist you in relation to that and we can perhaps summarize it so in relation that humanitarian assistance program you identified that was also developed policies and
02:07:28 that was also developed policies and procedures for local authorities in providing wrap around support to survivors
02:07:33 survivors and in relation to that wrap around support
02:07:36 support you mentioned that a draft version of guidance for key worker support to people critically affected by emergency guidance has been approved by the local authority panel this february
02:07:48 the local authority panel this february is that correct correct and it states you states in your statements paragraph five of your second statements that it will be further developed through a robust pilot program
02:08:00 through a robust pilot program correct and that it stems from lessons learned from the grenville tower correct so that those lessons learned from the grenfell tower have been reflected in this draft guidance for wrap around
02:08:12 this draft guidance for wrap around support for key workers and and other pieces of work within that program it's it's nearly five years since events
02:08:23 it's it's nearly five years since events and we've talked about reviews in 2017 2018 and it's draft guidance in february 2022.
02:08:30 2022. pausing there we also had covert intervening in that period of time but are you satisfied with the pace of delivery in relation to these to this guidance and these improvements
02:08:42 to this guidance and these improvements no
02:08:43 no no why not satisfied with the pace of delivery i would have preferred them to be delivered much quicker and
02:08:51 and what's the what's the barrier to bringing in improvements which are identified as part of your work earlier i believe
02:09:03 i believe local government doesn't often do things quickly but that's not an excuse i i believe that it's an indication that a lot of these pieces of work
02:09:14 of work are being progressed by
02:09:17 by not by people with a dedicated responsibility to that piece of work so they have other they have their day job to deliver as well so the um
02:09:29 the um prioritization of
02:09:33 of work or
02:09:35 establishing sufficient capacity in the system
02:09:39 system to enable these pieces of work to be delivered more quickly and currently doesn't exist
02:09:47 and the solution is greater capacity and greater prioritization investment
02:09:55 in terms of finally wider observations
02:10:04 drawing together your work for the ep 2020 refresh has resulted as you've set upon in your statements and we haven't gone through a lot of it is various additional guidance documents
02:10:15 is various additional guidance documents have been produced to add to the london resilience suite of documents there's been a concept of operations we've had the resilient standards for london there's a civil resilience
02:10:26 london there's a civil resilience handbook it's a humanitarian assistance framework has been updated the guidance we touched upon in relation to wraparound support guidance we touched upon in relation to chief executive
02:10:37 chief executive and the activation of llag and there's more guidance in relation to mutual aid and emergency planning teams which has been referred to in your statement
02:10:48 is there a danger that the field of resilience is becoming saturated with too many plans and and guidance documents
02:10:59 not necessarily saturated because i can see a purpose for each of those documents
02:11:06 documents the challenge we have is that
02:11:11 is that those documents are well known probably by again my favorite term today those selected few and we need to find a way whereby
02:11:23 and we need to find a way whereby that level of knowledge of those
02:11:26 of those relevant plans frameworks is not just shared but actually maintained so i think in my third statement i reference
02:11:37 reference the the challenge of conflicting priorities and officers dipping in and out of resilience so we need to find a way whereby that level of knowledge isn't
02:11:49 that level of knowledge isn't continually it's not even refreshed they're you they're told multiple times because they they they hear forget
02:11:59 forget come back hear forget come back so it is it's a cycle of of continually rep repetition as compared to um we need to find a way whereby that that is maintained
02:12:12 that is maintained so
02:12:13 so for an individual who is not a one of the select view few but as has some involvement or responsibility they will be greeted will they not be with national guidance
02:12:25 with national guidance in london it will be the regional guidance and then at their local authority you they have the local guidance and plans is there a danger that quite important
02:12:37 is there a danger that quite important messages may actually be lost due to the volume and density of the material potentially if you're expecting somebody to know it all but i think what we need
02:12:48 to know it all but i think what we need to be is much more precise in terms of what someone needs to know to enable them to perform effectively
02:12:58 and then maintain that level of knowledge
02:13:01 knowledge and in terms of maintaining the knowledge
02:13:05 knowledge you'd also accept that there also needs to be a sufficient number of trained staff in place to ensure that the knowledge and plans which flow from them are acted upon when the time arise is not correct
02:13:17 the time arise is not correct very much right people in the right roles with the right knowledge and in the right numbers
02:13:25 perhaps you could bring up what you alluded to a moment ago in your last statement please paragraph three gol401847
02:13:44 am i right and that's what you were alluding to professionalizing the local authority approach to incident response you say this local authorities need to take their responsibility at being category one responders more seriously
02:13:56 category one responders more seriously and accept that the right people with their appropriate skills need to be identified and installed in the right numbers into response roles at every level
02:14:05 level to support these officers the problem of dipping in and out of interest in resilience related matters and finding other priorities which prevents full engagement has to be formally addressed
02:14:18 is that the position i believe it is i may have used slightly different terms in reference to finding other priorities i think i think other priorities find them okay
02:14:31 them okay when you say it has to be formally addressed what do you mean by formally addressed
02:14:36 addressed we need to if a solution can be found then it should be found
02:14:47 and not just continue accepting
02:14:50 accepting this is the way it works
02:14:55 is mindset a fact here is it do you think organizationally the mindset has to change towards
02:15:05 towards the importance of civil resilience corporate ownership
02:15:10 and is it your view that local authorities currently still need to take responsibility in relation to being category one responders more seriously there are some local authorities who are
02:15:21 there are some local authorities who are better prepared than others
02:15:26 and can you say why they're better prepared than others
02:15:31 probably greater corporate ownership okay
02:15:35 okay so i'm grateful for your patience and the patience of the panel they're all the questions i have for you this afternoon
02:15:41 afternoon um
02:15:42 um mr chairman joe leave if we perhaps have a short pause to see if there's any questions yes well um mr soy when council gets the end of his questions we have a
02:15:51 have a short break just to let him take stock but also to allow an opportunity for other people who are following the proceedings from elsewhere to suggest questions so we'll
02:16:02 questions so we'll break now we'll come back at 25 plus four
02:16:05 four at that point we'll see if there's any more questions we ought to ask you thank you all right would you go with the usher please
02:16:18 um and we say 25 past four if you need more time perhaps you could just let the usher
02:16:23 usher tell us right thank you
02:25:47 would you ask mr sawyer to come back in please
02:25:56 thank you all right this is sorry we'll see if any any more questions for you yes mister thank you mr chairman one question which has arisen which perhaps you could assist us with mr
02:26:08 perhaps you could assist us with mr sawyer is this we were talking about resilience standards for london and we're talking about the pilot scheme the voluntary pilot scheme which is operated by the lga those independent peer
02:26:20 by the lga those independent peer challenges in relation to that you mentioned that three local authorities so far have participated or asked to participate in that can you assist whether or bkc was
02:26:32 that can you assist whether or bkc was one of those three local authorities no they weren't one of those authorities thank you
02:26:37 thank you and finally mr sawyer is is this in relation to your evidence is there anything else that you wanted to add which may assist to inquiry with its investigations uh
02:26:49 investigations uh nothing extra to what i included in my third statement and and other than that to say that given this time again which i know we can't get back
02:27:00 can't get back i would have made less of an assumption that nicolas holgate genuinely understood what invoking the gold arrangement meant
02:27:13 gold arrangement meant and that wouldn't have meant that he would have stepped aside to allow another chief executive to take over
02:27:20 over and i think had i known that even on the 14th
02:27:24 14th that may have been been able to be addressed okay so that's really in terms of what i would do differently and what i think should happen i do have a personal statement if i
02:27:36 i do have a personal statement if i would be allowed to to make that personal statement is this the statement that i saw i read on your third statement it is and if i would be allowed to
02:27:47 would be allowed to um
02:27:48 um speak publicly to that and refer to my statement um i'd be really grateful yes all right
02:27:54 all right thank you um just a little bit of context to why i wrote this statement and i thought very hard about it which is why i want to refer to it because i want to get this right
02:28:05 want to get this right in the evening a warm evening in late july early august 2017
02:28:12 2017 i attended a meeting with the community in the law center underneath the finger blocks
02:28:19 blocks and quite innocently at the end of a long meeting at the quite late in the evening innocently said to the then chair of grenfell united i hope my wife's going to be okay
02:28:30 i hope my wife's going to be okay because i'm going to need her to pick me up from the station because i'm going to get home really late without an ounce of malice he said to me well at least you have a home to go to
02:28:41 well at least you have a home to go to so that place is into context for me what grenfell means now what i have written here is that in july 2017 i was asked by john barrowdale
02:28:52 july 2017 i was asked by john barrowdale to contact members of grenfell united and see if i could help them with direct discussions with rbkc and in any way possible
02:29:00 possible i officially agreed to this determined to provide support in any way possible through this process i met the most amazing people who conducted themselves
02:29:12 amazing people who conducted themselves during a period of trauma pain anguish sadness and frustration in the most dignified compassionate and proud way possible i was humbled by the experience
02:29:23 possible i was humbled by the experience and remain humbled by the experience one of the main things from this experience i will carry with me for the rest of my life is the hope that people never again have to endure the pain that
02:29:34 never again have to endure the pain that these good people had to suffer in any situation whether it be day to day life or whether it be an emergency people always must come first
02:29:46 always must come first thank you
02:29:47 thank you thank you
02:29:48 thank you mr sorry it just remains for me to say on behalf of the council team thank you so much for attending today and assisting the query in its investigations and providing your evidence
02:29:58 evidence thank you
02:29:59 thank you and it's right that i should thank you as well uh mr soy on behalf of the panel it's been very helpful for us to get your assistance in relation to the workings of london resilience we've learned a lot and we're
02:30:11 resilience we've learned a lot and we're very grateful to you so thank you very much indeed thank you and you're free to go thank you
02:30:22 well thank you very much mr keating that's it for the day and we shall have another witness tomorrow yes mr millet's back tomorrow with mr baradar right well thank you very much we break there then
02:30:33 thank you very much we break there then 10 o'clock tomorrow morning thank you
02:30:47 you