London Resilience / London Local Authority Gold Evidence - Monday 16th May 2022 (1/2)

Name: London Resilience / London Local Authority Gold Evidence - Monday 16th May 2022 (1/2)
Uploaded: 2022-05-16
Duration: 3 h 1 min 53 s
Description: Grenfell Tower Inquiry - London Resilience / London Local Authority Gold Evidence - Monday 16th May 2022 (1/2)

16 May 2022 · John Hetherington (London Resilience), Counsel to the Inquiry · 3:01:53

▶ Watch on YouTube Open in interactive viewer

Grenfell Tower Inquiry - London Resilience / London Local Authority Gold Evidence - Monday 16th May 2022 (1/2)

Key moments

00:05:15PolicyDCLG questions: "Are we satisfied that everyone who wants accommodation has it? Are we satisfied that RBKC has a grip on this?"
00:05:52PolicyOn what 'grip' means: "Do they have an understanding on the numbers, do they have a plan in place to respond to it, are they in control?"
00:07:01AdmissionOn Thursday morning RBKC impression: "They were providing all the indications of having grip. Everything they were saying was that they had control on the situation."
00:10:44PolicyMinister's concerns relayed: "We've heard from residents who spent the night in the rest center saying how there was very little or in some cases no bedding or pillows."
00:13:55Admission"Was it clear to you by this point that there was a problem with emergency accommodation?" "There's an identified problem with accommodation."
00:16:00Witness Impact"The mayor was mobbed on scene earlier. There's a community meeting later today which is showing concerns of civil unrest. He is therefore not satisfied to be handing over to recovery tomorrow."
00:19:08AdmissionOn delay in recovery phase: "This notion of civil unrest which was growing throughout the Thursday afternoon made it more complex and that led to the delay in the recovery phase."
00:32:10PolicyOn political support being delicate: "London is a majoritatively Labour constituency base and this is a Conservative council...it was just seen as a delicate subject."
00:38:09PolicyOn RBKC's first request for mutual aid at 17:03 on 15 June: "Did you consider this to be the first request for mutual aid from the council?" "Yes, you did."
00:42:34Policy"Who made the decision to activate LLAG?" "It was a request from Nicholas Holgate I understand." "Would it be inevitable when a CE asked for LLAG to be triggered?" "Yes."
00:43:46Contentious"Was there a particular reason why LLAG could not be activated immediately when Nicholas Holgate requested it on the evening of 15th June?" "I don't know."

Full transcript

00:00:27 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to begin by hearing further evidence from mr john hetherington of london resilience so i'm going to ask mr hetherington to come

00:00:39 going to ask mr hetherington to come back in please

00:00:50 good morning mr hetherington good morning thank you for coming back to answer some more questions yes yes good morning mr chairman good morning members of the panel mr mr heatherington good morning to you morning

00:01:01 morning to you morning can we now turn please to the 15th of june 2017

00:01:05 june 2017 and i want to start with uh communications between london resilience and the dclg now your colleague hamish cameron was i think is this right the strategic advisor on the 15th of june until you

00:01:17 advisor on the 15th of june until you took over at 14 30 that day yes that's correct uh now let's go please to clg four zeros three zero six two

00:01:27 and we can see here an email second email on the page please from lynn

00:01:32 lynn dowdecon

00:01:34 dowdecon at 8 58 in the morning red control is copied for briefing readout london hi jenny hamish rang from london read out below they're emailing red control as well and then it says 44

00:01:46 red control as well and then it says 44 families have been put in accommodation overnight commercial hotels 25 other families with vulnerable people or children are being housed the council have reasonable confidence they have now accommodated those in need the council

00:01:58 accommodated those in need the council staff have stated they can resolve any shortage in accommodation and last night all persons requiring accommodation were encouraged to attend the westway rest center

00:02:07 center rbkc have put plans in place overnight for recovery and the humanitarian assistance aspects

00:02:16 and it goes on about the recovery and what is going to be needed um from whom would london resilience have received information of this kind uh so that would have been either a

00:02:28 uh so that would have been either a readout from the scg or direct communications with the borough emergency control center would be my understanding of where this information came from i see and if we go to the second email on the page please if we

00:02:39 second email on the page please if we scroll up

00:02:40 scroll up uh we can see

00:02:44 that at

00:02:48 sorry if we go to lfb three zero six one three one one

00:02:54 please six

00:02:57 six one three one one second email on the page lynn dowdecon again 924 to hamish cameron and toby gould copied to red urgent questions

00:03:09 red urgent questions and she says dear hamish and toby i tried to call we have some further urgent queries to clear if you are able what were the numbers accommodated in rest centers overnight scg minutes state 25 other families with

00:03:20 scg minutes state 25 other families with vulnerable people or children are being housed have they been housed and in what accommodation what support families is available what are the various things on the ground rest center family support

00:03:31 the ground rest center family support line casualty bureau friends and family center run by salvation army what are the phone numbers for these in a one line description of what each of these do

00:03:40 do so those are her questions and then if you look up the page please you can see toby gool's response back to linda can and hamish cameron lynn hamish is getting the confirmed answers from rbkc and mps on your other questions below

00:03:53 and mps on your other questions below the following has the answers and um you can see what is suggested there and there's a link to the rbkc newsroom council statements in respect for questions

00:04:05 statements in respect for questions facilities and numbers and then if you go please to clg 403099

00:04:16 second email down uh here's an email at 10 20 from jenny shellens to phil philip james copy to red hi phil and um

00:04:29 and um the subject scg asks and this is ahead of the 11 o'clock seg meeting

00:04:35 meeting and

00:04:35 and um

00:04:37 um philip james is the government liaison officer

00:04:40 officer and he says in the second line a couple of areas that it would help us for you to probe on if it is not completely clear

00:04:46 clear the number of residents displaced you see that yes uh and

00:04:53 uh and she goes on to say in the last paragraph if you turn the page to the top of page two we've had an update from lrp and also homelessness team are talking to our bkc team but it

00:05:04 team are talking to our bkc team but it would be useful to add any intelligence you can along the lines of are we satisfied that everyone who wants accommodation has it when do we think those from surrounding area who are in the rest center will be able to return

00:05:15 the rest center will be able to return home are we satisfied that rbkc has a grip on this now was it brought i've shown you all this email chain now but was it brought to your attention at the handover that dclg were

00:05:26 attention at the handover that dclg were asking such specific questions on the response

00:05:30 response uh no not such specific questions uh the the how have rbkc got a grip that's a a general term that government will tend to use of uh local response mechanisms

00:05:41 to use of uh local response mechanisms and that's their uh litmus test i think uh coming from a from a cobra central government type environment right what does that mean grip i mean grip is grip so do they have

00:05:52 grip i mean grip is grip so do they have an understanding on the numbers do they have a plan in place uh to respond to it are they in control if you like right did you or do you consider that the information provided by the london

00:06:03 information provided by the london resilience here to red may have created the impression that all was in hand in relation to the response on the ground and the immediate housing needs of those affected by the fire so we would have been relaying

00:06:14 so we would have been relaying information that was provided to us uh dclg would have also been members of the scg

00:06:21 scg meetings and could have asked questions themselves um and i think it was a in the round discussion but from the looks of the information that we were getting and the way in which hamish posed his earlier response

00:06:35 hamish posed his earlier response he wouldn't have been making comment without

00:06:38 without clear indication coming from rb casey right

00:06:45 and was the impression that rbkc did have a grip what was the answer to the question

00:06:50 question are we satisfied that our bkc has a grip so at that stage on the thursday morning i wasn't there throughout the wednesday afternoon i think i think they were providing

00:07:01 they were providing all the indications of having grip so everything that they were saying was that they had control on the situation they were understanding the numbers and putting their assessment in place working out the

00:07:13 working out the if you recall from the last session of evidence we looked at the kind of uh not just bodies but the right people was or words to that effect was was one of the the email chains

00:07:24 the the email chains they had a logical and sensible approach to defining what they needed and how they were going to go about getting it

00:07:35 now um

00:07:38 moving on to the dclg's deployment if we go please to clg three zeroes one eight nine three six

00:07:52 and turn to page two

00:08:01 this is an email at 1009 on the 15th of june from toby gould

00:08:08 to john benton john we don't think it would particularly effective to deploy to our bkc borough emergency control center

00:08:18 uh previously it's worked best located at sor

00:08:24 sor and or having a clear line of contact with the ceo stroke his direct office that way you can have the overall seg picture access to mps and others but no you can discuss direct with the la ceo

00:08:36 you can discuss direct with the la ceo or his team when required were you made aware yourself mr heatherington that that dc lg's red had inquired about a government liaison officer uh glo being deployed to our bkc on that

00:08:49 uh glo being deployed to our bkc on that morning but were advised against it by taybee gould uh no i wasn't made aware of that and nor have i ever seen them deploy direct to the ground in other instances either right

00:09:00 ground in other instances either right are you able to explain the rationale for the advice being given here uh so so toby is looking at precedent there and it is usual that a dclg uh red officer so their resilience in emergencies

00:09:11 so their resilience in emergencies division so a a government liaison officer would come and and be either physically present within the special operations room or be a standing member of the scg so that they have the

00:09:23 member of the scg so that they have the information from all of the agencies that they need to speak to out there right but what about going into the back would that would there be a precedent for a a glo going into an la's back i've never seen that before

00:09:36 an la's back i've never seen that before right

00:09:37 right and the sar stands for special operations that's correct and that was at lambeth that's correct that's the mps's facility there that's correct which serves for all agencies indeed

00:09:48 indeed um yes

00:09:52 um yes then um let's go please next to lfb3061313

00:10:00 page one

00:10:04 um you can see uh the 1001 second email down on the page philip james to toby gould copper to leanne grimes at lfb and red

00:10:16 and there are queries raised here by nicholas heard he was minister for state for policing and fire service and the first point is that he has raised with us as you can see

00:10:28 with us as you can see quotes the offer the post office have made to issue money to residents from the tower

00:10:32 the tower who've got no access to cash and look at point two below that we've heard from some of the residents who spent the night in the rest center saying how there was very little or in some cases no bedding or pillows can you confirm

00:10:44 no bedding or pillows can you confirm that you have organizations such as the red cross and the samaritans involved and that there will be better sleeping facilities tonight and the third dc lg press-off press officer offer to support kmc coms

00:10:56 press officer offer to support kmc coms teams now that emails as we can see from the email above it on page one page one please is forwarded by toby ghoul to mark sawyer and nicholas holgate at 1016

00:11:09 sawyer and nicholas holgate at 1016 and it says nicholas mark a positive response to dclg's questions but they would be appreciated nicholas if you'd like to appoint someone to be their main point of contact for you rather than through us please let me know

00:11:21 please let me know now first question for you mr heatherington were you made aware on the 15th of june that nicholas heard the minister of state for policing and the fire service

00:11:32 state for policing and the fire service had relayed concerns about the sleeping facilities for those of the westway center no should he have been if it hadn't been a completed action by the time

00:11:43 completed action by the time i came in at 2 30 or hadn't been raised directly to rbkc to provide a response then yes i would expect to but as you can see here i think this is toby's

00:11:54 i think this is toby's making all efforts to get in touch directly bearing in mind at this stage we were expecting mark sawyer to be going into rbkc for the day to to support them um he's trying two lines of approach uh

00:12:06 um he's trying two lines of approach uh to both mark and nicholas uh to raise this to them well you were made aware of dclg's press offer press office offer to our bkc uh no should you have been

00:12:20 no not necessarily i wouldn't have expected that level of detail to be contained in a handover especially if arby casey had either taken up the offer it was made at 10 o'clock in the morning so i would

00:12:32 10 o'clock in the morning so i would have expected within the subsequent four hours the logistics to have been arranged as to how that offer would have been taken up now if we go to lfb3061319 again

00:12:43 again we can we go to um an email at 1620 top of the chain [Music]

00:12:50 [Music] and um

00:12:52 and um that's on the 15th of june this is from toby gould to stuart turner uh and ma copy to mark sawyer and to you uh and it says thanks mark from the

00:13:03 uh and it says thanks mark from the h-a-s-g-i wasn't clear about the intentions and numbers of people involved the line was terrible but if the caudans will remain for days to come i don't think it would be appropriate for evacuees to stay in the rest center overnight for a number of nights it

00:13:15 overnight for a number of nights it sounded as though there may be pressure on the rooms that they already have people in now if hotels already have those rooms booked for the weekend

00:13:24 i appreciate they're working as hard as they can and rightly prioritizing the vulnerable and have possibly already considered this but if there's a possible option read the offer from the business sector panel we should explore that route

00:13:37 uh don randle said he just needs numbers duration to put the request to the hotel sector

00:13:44 sector and it continues in that vein my question for you um is um was it clear to you by this point that there was a problem with emergency accommodation

00:13:55 accommodation uh well i was coping into this uh email so i would have been aware of this email at the time but again i think there's options within it that so there's an identified problem with accommodation um

00:14:06 identified problem with accommodation um but also a route to try and solve it at this point yes and what were you doing about that what was your role in relation to dealing with this information uh so it wasn't my role at this stage i

00:14:17 uh so it wasn't my role at this stage i was uh by this time so uh we were four o'clock just after four o'clock uh i would have been in sor working to the nps gold commander who had still been the scg chair at this

00:14:29 had still been the scg chair at this stage

00:14:30 stage right you're copied into this what did you think your function was in relation to the information being provided here so a cc generally tends to be for information to keep you apprised

00:14:42 be for information to keep you apprised of the situation so it's copied to stuart turner and tom brady who were both uh working within the london local authority coordination center at that stage

00:14:51 stage and would have been in close contact with rbkc beck so my understanding is that this is toby speaking to stuart and tom uh looking to get uh information either through rbkc

00:15:03 get uh information either through rbkc beck

00:15:04 beck or as a result of the the working close working with the humanitarian assistant steering group to finalize those numbers and put an approach to the business sector to seek further hotels

00:15:15 sector to seek further hotels let's go to lfb 3061230 please

00:15:22 this is an email uh from

00:15:27 from you to nicholas holgate at 1744 where you say in the second line mps commander neil jerome would like to speak to you what is the best number and

00:15:38 speak to you what is the best number and most convenient time for you and then

00:15:42 and then that's then followed up by an email about half an hour later an lfb

00:15:48 an lfb triple zero six one three six one two three three six one two three three where you send a message to hamish cameron and toby gould copy to steve hamm sorry to be the

00:16:00 copy to steve hamm sorry to be the bearer of bad news just had a chat with mps gold following his private call with nicholas the mayor was mobbed on scene earlier there's a community meeting later today which is showing concerns of civil unrest he is therefore not

00:16:12 civil unrest he is therefore not satisfied anymore to be handing over to recovery tomorrow

00:16:19 uh and then

00:16:22 and then let's look at the next one in the chain

00:16:26 uh lfb3061227

00:16:37 this is from you at 1833 the previous day which i think we looked at before

00:16:45 and you say there in the second sentence in the first paragraph i think by friday we will be handed over to recovery so that call should go ahead i think it needs to to with the trooping the color and other

00:16:57 to with the trooping the color and other events over the weekend you'll recall that

00:16:59 that from

00:17:00 from evidence last week just to clarify on this this chain this change so every friday we have a partnership call at 12 30 so we bring together all partners regardless it will

00:17:11 together all partners regardless it will happen this week next week every week and has been happening since the olympics that's the call that we're talking about on there on friday so hamish if you see in the email below is saying should we continue with the 12 30 friday call and because there are other

00:17:23 friday call and because there are other events going on in london such as the heatwave trooping of color we felt it prudent to carry on and speak to partners

00:17:29 partners i think the the overarching email there that i'm talking about was as you'd expect with a an operation once the

00:17:37 the the operation phase has finished so that the site has stabilized somewhat and the fire is out we would look to hand over to recovery as soon as possible right so that was all intentions working through

00:17:48 that was all intentions working through the from the wednesday night into thursday through the thursday if you recall some of the other emails we talked about was rbk c putting their structures in place ready to take over

00:17:59 structures in place ready to take over for the recovery so that's what we were aiming towards on the friday uh handover from the scg to the recovery so you were aiming for recover for a transfer to recovery by the friday that's correct right then if we go to

00:18:12 that's correct right then if we go to lfb 3061233

00:18:23 which we've just been looking at and you refer there to your discussion with mps gold that's neil jerome that's correct yes after he'd spoken to nicholas holgate was there anything in addition to what

00:18:36 was there anything in addition to what you call concerns of civil unrest uh

00:18:40 uh following your conversation with commander jerome that had led to the decision to delay the recovery phase uh no it was that

00:18:50 there's kind of two aspects to the incident there's the scale and then the complexity the scale remained unchanged we knew the numbers that we were dealing with by now but but what was becoming more difficult was the

00:19:02 was becoming more difficult was the complexity and this notion of civil unrest which was growing throughout the thursday afternoon

00:19:08 afternoon and into the friday and so that made it more complex that made it more complex and that led to the delay in the recovery phase starting absolutely yes right i see

00:19:18 then uh

00:19:22 the final topic on the events of the 15th of june i want to explore with you are the discussions relating to the activation of the llag arrangements now just to recap and to clarify the

00:19:33 now just to recap and to clarify the gold resolution we looked at on thursday now we looked at appendix a we don't need to go back to it and we also looked at the mutual aid memorandum and i think the circular from 2011 but there are two more documents i think

00:19:45 but there are two more documents i think we need to look at to complete the story can i ask you please to go to lfb triple zero 61167

00:20:04 and these are proposed clarifications to the gold resolution and arrangements for mutual aid dated the 13th of july 2010 um by doug flight

00:20:15 um by doug flight now if we go to page five in that

00:20:18 document that says under major incidence of paragraph eight fourth line down uh

00:20:28 uh it refers to paragraph one three eight and the fourth line down it says the current gold resolution authorizes local authority gold to discharge functions under section 138 subsection 1. on behalf of the councils following the

00:20:40 behalf of the councils following the convening of the strategic coordinating group gold command called to respond to an incident requiring a level 2 response defined as a single site or wide area disruptive challenge which required a

00:20:52 disruptive challenge which required a coordinated response by relevant agencies this is the trigger mechanism for local authority gold to be able to exercise their executive powers and the word executive there is in quotation marks

00:21:05 in quotation marks do you know what those executive powers are or were to be

00:21:12 be i think as we discussed on thursday it's the ability to incur expenditure

00:21:18 right and then if we

00:21:23 go please to

00:21:26 to paragraphs 15 and 16 on page seven

00:21:33 ability to respond to emergencies there may be exceptional circumstances where it could become could become appropriate for local authority gold to be able to respond to incidents and exercise delegated powers

00:21:45 incidents and exercise delegated powers where gold command has not been convened for example in the event of extreme and disruptive weather or other events in the point in such rising tide events which the full local authority gold

00:21:56 which the full local authority gold arrangements may need to be implemented will not be clear at the outset nor would it be triggered by the convening of a police-led gold command to cover this eventuality in any

00:22:07 to cover this eventuality in any unforeseen events a process has been developed which permits the full gold powers to be triggered in the absence of a police-led gold command being established but only where certain procedures are complied with to give

00:22:18 procedures are complied with to give councils the comfort that use of the delegated powers by local authority gold would only be operated in exceptional circumstances and we're absolutely necessary

00:22:28 necessary and then it goes on at 16 in these circumstances before local authority gold can exercise powers under section 138 etc

00:22:39 a london partnership meeting normally led by the government office for london will need to have been convened and additionally the prior agreement of london councils on behalf of the boroughs will need to have been obtained

00:22:50 obtained in practice london councils will be consulted and its approval will need to be given before little authority gold is able to exercise any delegated powers approval is sought for this power to be delegated to the chief executive of

00:23:01 delegated to the chief executive of london councils in consultation with the leaders or their deputies of each of the three main political parties the power of local authority gold to occur in the expenditure would be subject to further controls as set out below and then it

00:23:13 controls as set out below and then it goes on about the discretion to incur expenditure um now um you you you say that executive powers were powers to spend money um

00:23:26 is that correct in the circumstances of 15 and 16 which tend to suggest that it might be a little bit wider than that

00:23:39 so my reading of paragraphs 15 and 16 is that they

00:23:44 that they speak to so the the gold resolution came in in 2004 alongside the civil contingencies act uh for a way in which local authorities could work together given the close proximity in london in 2010 on the back

00:23:57 proximity in london in 2010 on the back of

00:23:58 of the experience from the snow and grit as i mentioned before where they had to respond when there wasn't an scg because it wasn't deemed necessary by the police and because we had changed from regional government offices we'd lost that level

00:24:10 government offices we'd lost that level two

00:24:11 two uh descriptor to an emergency so they were saying that they could still act uh in a rising tide uh emergency without the invocation of an scg where there was

00:24:22 the invocation of an scg where there was uh permission from the councils to do so now we

00:24:27 now we on thursday last week when you and i were

00:24:30 were examining this together we looked at the 1730 call which took place on the 14th of june

00:24:36 of june um was there agreement

00:24:39 agreement of all local authorities for the delegation as these paragraphs suggest here so so the agreement was thought in

00:24:50 so so the agreement was thought in 2010 2011 that they all signed up to it it is then for the agreement of the affected local authority to to ask for that support

00:25:01 so my understanding unless it is a london wide i don't think this is saying that all local authorities need to be asked as to whether or not they can convene the lag arrangements

00:25:13 the lag arrangements in an incident where it is affecting a borough it is for that borough to ask well that's not what it suggests is it 16 rather suggests that in each and every incident uh a london partnership meeting would

00:25:24 uh a london partnership meeting would need to be convened a prior agreement of london councils will need to be obtained and london councils need to be consulted and approved of before a local authority gold is able to exercise any delegated powers so so a

00:25:36 exercise any delegated powers so so a partnership meeting is a term that we use in lieu of an scg so if uh to give you an example on the thunderstorms that we had last summer

00:25:47 thunderstorms that we had last summer where no agency was declaring it a major incident and it wasn't a police-led incident we hold what we term a partnership meeting which we were chairs london resilience group to pull together organizations for situational awareness

00:25:59 organizations for situational awareness that's where it says uh and bearing in mind when this was written we still had the government offices for london and and other parts of the country as well so a london partnership meeting which is normally led by the government

00:26:10 which is normally led by the government office for london so that was their role before we took over as london resilience team and then subsequently london resilience group right was discussion of the delegation and exercise delegated powers the basis of

00:26:23 exercise delegated powers the basis of the 1730 call the 5 30 pm call on the 14th of june on the 14th it was what support nicholas holgate needed as the

00:26:31 as the lead local authority to the response and the

00:26:34 the the gold commander for rbkc what um what what happened on that call to the best of your recollection

00:26:45 constitutionally within these paragraphs or other parts of appendix b

00:26:54 as contemplated by these arrangements was there any discussion of these arrangements at all not in the way that i think you're looking at but there were there were questions as to what resources

00:27:06 were questions as to what resources nicholas holgate needed which is where the discussions came around the city of london providing two press officers and uh london borough southern providing two office senior officers with experience

00:27:18 office senior officers with experience from la canal in the recent london bridge

00:27:21 bridge it was more than what support do you need

00:27:25 need as

00:27:25 as a single borough from the rest of london which is part of these arrangements these arrangements don't i don't think is this right contemplate that it would be simply left to a chief executive to

00:27:36 be simply left to a chief executive to decide for him or herself to trigger london gold there seems to be more to it than that

00:27:42 than that or is that wrong i think that's wrong the the the decision around the the agreement to the london gold arrangements was made by each of the council

00:27:53 council uh elected membership so it had to go to a meeting of full council or equivalent or however it was

00:27:59 was uh determined but that was in peace time back in 2010 and 11 and took a period of year a year for all of the boroughs to sign up to it once that agreement had been made and london councils i believe

00:28:10 been made and london councils i believe are the organization who hold all of those signatures in time then the the london gold arrangements are binding which says that boroughs will endeavor to provide mutual aid support to each

00:28:21 to provide mutual aid support to each other where requested and that there is a power vested in a single local authority chief executive and the local authority gold to commit expenditure in response to an emergency

00:28:33 in response to an emergency just help me with this would you um

00:28:36 you um identify mr holgate's request for support from other boroughs by the provision of manpower in effect yes

00:28:47 manpower in effect yes that doesn't require anything to be done under section 138 does it not that time not necessarily invoking i would imagine robbie casey were spending weighing above outside of

00:28:58 were spending weighing above outside of what they had usually budgeted it would have been

00:29:01 have been that they were paying for hotels et cetera et cetera so that is well that's a matter of um yeah

00:29:08 yeah and they can get mutual support by asking for asking other boroughs to provide manpower in the form of press officers or housing officers or whatever yes so at the moment i don't see how

00:29:20 yes so at the moment i don't see how section 138 comes into play

00:29:25 which is the subject of the gold resolution but the gold resolution also is underpinned by the mutual aid agreement as well oh that's where we look for it is it well it's it's it's part of the gold

00:29:37 well it's it's it's part of the gold resolution is that the the boroughs have agreed to a memorandum of understanding of mutual aid and that's their um agreement to endeavor to provide support through through uh staffing or

00:29:49 support through through uh staffing or services

00:29:50 services to other local authorities as and when requested that the mutual aid agreement puts that

00:29:57 puts that in one of its first paragraphs all right thank you very much

00:30:02 let's go to lfb3061225

00:30:06 this is the uh um email that we saw on thursday from you at 1858 which was the pracey the short practice of your your call at

00:30:18 the short practice of your your call at 1530 with nicholas holgate which you send to him and uh if we go please to the section immediate and longer term support

00:30:28 in the sec in the third chunk about halfway a third of the way down your screen

00:30:34 screen and and the last paragraph of that says

00:30:39 says uh well actually i can pick it up two lines down in it it says if requested by the leader of rbkc london councils may make an approach to political leaders across london to

00:30:50 political leaders across london to provide political support to our bkc but it was recognized this is a small network of people able to act in this capacity and a delicate subject what did you mean by that

00:31:01 what did you mean by that so if if i recall this was something that chris naylor had had raised on the call around providing support to the way in which councillors were operating on the ground and provide a

00:31:12 operating on the ground and provide a peer network to to councillors themselves and why was political support needed

00:31:21 well all manner of support was being provided i think it was creating a network so that they they didn't feel like they were on their own

00:31:31 well well you use the word political

00:31:35 political leaders to provide political support what is what's political support well uh

00:31:41 well uh support to the the politicians either a friendly face or experience of having dealt with something similar themselves or or just a peer support amongst the

00:31:52 or or just a peer support amongst the politicians in london why was it delicate

00:31:59 why was it a delicate subject i don't know well i i suspect it it was a delicate subject at the time that london is a majoritatively labor

00:32:10 london is a majoritatively labor constituent base and this is a conservative council we'd just been on the back of a general election where the

00:32:22 general election where the mp had changed from a conservative to labour

00:32:26 labour politician and sometimes in these networks already that the the press had had kind of looked to interview a number of the political leaders either at the scene

00:32:39 political leaders either at the scene so it was just seen as a delicate subject for them so partly political yes

00:32:47 and was there already criticism of rbkc out there

00:32:56 i think it was starting to swell by the the wednesday afternoon wednesday evening when we were coming to get there yeah

00:33:06 now let's then

00:33:10 go please to lfb double zero one one nine two six eight

00:33:20 which i think we looked at earlier and we've seen emails about the llacc being stood up on the 14th of june and we looked at those before and it was officially opened on the

00:33:32 and it was officially opened on the morning of the 15th at 8 15 in the morning

00:33:35 morning um is it the case that there was a hybrid situation in play

00:33:40 in play on the 14th lacc not officially open but stood up yes that's correct yes and was that because it was anticipated by london resilience that rbkc would activate the llag arrangements

00:33:53 activate the llag arrangements yes uh yes all the order would be request for mutual aid yes let's go to lfp triple zero six one two three four

00:34:12 uh yes and if you go to these emails please these are between the beck and lla cc

00:34:22 cc and if we can start please on page 2 16 34 15th of june questions for beck and there they are this is this was sent by nfb nac one

00:34:34 nac one to the beck official for action good afternoon i'm your liaison officer this comes from jillian maxwell you see that yes and the questions um are

00:34:44 are fourfold and the fourth one is with regard to assistance from boris please can you be giving some serious thought to what you are likely to be needing over the next 24 to 48 hours and over the weekend as the closer we get to the

00:34:55 the weekend as the closer we get to the weekend the harder it it will be for this to be facilitated was that normal practice in an emergency namely for the for the llacc to be asking the responding authority questions like that

00:35:07 responding authority questions like that was that normal uh well i think we were trying to to assist them and getting some foresight uh we're getting towards the end of the working day for most other local authorities in london so to get some

00:35:19 authorities in london so to get some form of request out that they can be uh thinking about this is now the thursday um so so we were trying to be pr preemptive in terms of what support they

00:35:30 preemptive in terms of what support they would need over a longer period of time and be on the front foot in terms of what they're requesting yes but at this point

00:35:36 point at this point there had been no decision by

00:35:40 by by nicholas holgate to invoke the london gold and you were still in a hybrid situation would it be normal while the llac was stood up and not yet activated for it to be asking questions of this nature what are you likely to be

00:35:52 of this nature what are you likely to be needing

00:35:53 needing over the next 24 to 48 hours yes i think we're trying to be supportive and that's part of our role to try and help get the boroughs to that position yeah i mean my question really one underlies my question did was there

00:36:04 one underlies my question did was there an indication at that time that rbkc was floundering not necessarily floundering but i think it would be uh

00:36:16 uh it would be difficult for a borough to sustain that level of operations over a continued and longer period of time

00:36:24 time so we were trying to get on the front foot so that put push them into thinking what what are you going to need in the future so that we can start to ask it for you now for it now so that it can come in good order now

00:36:36 so that it can come in good order now if we then go to uh page two the top email um the response from beck at 1703

00:36:47 at 1703 to a question four over the next 24 to 48 hours availability of lelo rest center managers rest center teams emergency planning staff you see that yes um and um and it gives

00:36:59 you see that yes um and um and it gives the official line that there are so many donations that they don't have any more capacity that may change and direct inquiries to the rbkc website in respect of monetary donations and other things

00:37:12 now if we go to page one please last email on page one julian maxwell from the lac llacc replies at 1714 confirming that contact will be made see that

00:37:25 contact will be made see that contact will be made to borrowers for staff

00:37:30 and then if you go back to the top or second email down from the beck hi jillian in response to your query below we would require two shifts i.e day and night shift

00:37:42 day and night shift with standby on scene hence we need four of each ie leilo wrestling to managers and teams and ep staff could you please coordinate this on our behalf for tonight have you got two back offices from work nine till eight tonight nine

00:37:53 from work nine till eight tonight nine pm to eight a.m

00:37:57 you see that now that was then forwarded on to you by julian maxwell at 1745 which is where it comes to you information just received right at the top yes see that yeah um now my question

00:38:09 top yes see that yeah um now my question having shown you all of that is did you consider this to be the first request for mutual aid from the council yes you did

00:38:19 did and in your statement your first statement we don't need to go to it page 23 paragraph 73 you say that you sought authority from chris naylor who was the duty llag

00:38:29 duty llag before a request was then made to all boroughs why was that procedural step necessary

00:38:35 necessary it's to keep lag informed so that they know what mutual aid is going where and to provide us as the coordination center rather than being as i mentioned uh not a decision maker

00:38:46 uh not a decision maker to to get authority so that we can go out to all of the boroughs to ask for that it was a quick process in in this instance i think it was 10 minutes from receipt to

00:38:57 receipt to them being made or 12 minutes to all boroughs in london right and you say in your statement at paragraph 75 at page 23 that it was becoming more apparent throughout the afternoon and into the evening

00:39:08 evening of the 15th of june that that llag activation was going to take place in order to provide greater support to rbkc

00:39:16 rbkc and there it is or there it is now on the screen in front of you in what way was it becoming more apparent at least to you

00:39:23 to you so as i mentioned earlier that the complexity of the incident was was changing

00:39:28 changing uh there was uh if we if we consider it like like a policing model where you police by consent uh local authorities responding by consent of the population wasn't necessarily happening that this was a

00:39:41 necessarily happening that this was a a different type of incident where those that were trying to respond were also those that were being held to account for it and it was making it increasingly difficult for them and the complexity of the incident and

00:39:54 and the complexity of the incident and the number of uh areas of response to donations were contin continuing to to grow which was a an area that they had to respond to um and uh the the kind of

00:40:05 to respond to um and uh the the kind of expansion of the the walkways and not getting access back to property that you would expect normally very quickly a wrestling to open more than uh a few hours or 12 hours is quite a

00:40:17 uh a few hours or 12 hours is quite a rarity so so this kind of growing length of issue was or kind of a problem for them was

00:40:24 them was was adding to the complexity right so it sounds from that answer that there are a number of factors which to your mind meant it is this right increasingly inevitable

00:40:35 is this right increasingly inevitable that lle's got l-a-a-g would be triggered in some way and those are the factors you've just set out yeah the rbkc would require greater support in responding to this

00:40:46 greater support in responding to this yes was there any particular dominant factor in the list you've just given us uh no i think it was an amalgam of all of them right um lfb triple zero six one

00:40:57 of them right um lfb triple zero six one two one nine next please this is your log book entry for the 15th of june at 1839. we can go please to page 12.

00:41:10 and you can see there at 1839 at the foot of the screen call from mark to explain the rationale for the llag

00:41:19 llag activation i think that says am i right yes that's cool yeah now you say in your statement that's we don't need to go to it paragraph 276 on page 24

00:41:30 it paragraph 276 on page 24 that the the rationale is documented in your email to toby gould and hamish cameron 1902 let's go to that then linking the two documents through your

00:41:41 linking the two documents through your statement lfb triple zero six one two three six

00:41:46 three six and you say there evening all uh in light of the increasing complexity of the incident the recent request for mutual aid from rbkc

00:41:57 rbkc and a number of other factors the decision has been taken to activate llag to own the incident and support directly rbkc current plan that as of tomorrow morning

00:42:07 morning paul martin wandsworth will go to into rbkc to support llag and three other chief executives will be made available to support aspects of the response hopefully the next email will contain

00:42:18 hopefully the next email will contain better news now first

00:42:22 now first the number of other factors are those are factors that you've just described to us yes thank you who is it who made the decision to activate llag it was a request from

00:42:34 nicholas holgate i understand

00:42:38 yes but um it was a request but who made the decision to activate it you say it's the same thing do you yes i i don't know that that answer

00:42:50 and would it be inevitable that when a chief executive asked for llag to be triggered lag would respond yes right let's go then to your second statement please

00:43:01 second statement please lfb double zero double one nine one three zero page 32 paragraph 101

00:43:12 and you say there once the scope of the incident and the need for wider support to assist with the increase in community tensions and the recovery process became more apparent it became appropriate for rbkc

00:43:24 apparent it became appropriate for rbkc to officially request the support of llag in leading the coordination of the incident and in establishing a new command structure that process was put in motion on the evening of 15 june 2017

00:43:35 in motion on the evening of 15 june 2017 and lleg was formally activated in the early afternoon of the 16th of june 2017. was there a particular reason why lnag could not be activated immediately

00:43:46 lnag could not be activated immediately when nicholas holgate requested it on the evening of the 15th of june um i don't know i think it was the complexity required uh some level of

00:43:57 the complexity required uh some level of assessment to go in um so that people understood exactly what what it was they were taking on uh in that capacity as london local authority gold why is why

00:44:08 london local authority gold why is why is that given that mark sawyer had been uh at um at rbkc at the town hall from 8am that morning um i don't know you don't know

00:44:21 um i don't know you don't know and i mean is that you speculating when you say i think it was the complexity required do you actually know why there was a delay or are you just um

00:44:30 um giving your view of it now i'm just giving my my views up as i understood that there was that growing complexity and the need to uh

00:44:38 uh undertake some form of assessment and what what form of assessment was undertaken i think that the the chief executives going in wanted to to see for themselves what was in place and

00:44:49 see for themselves what was in place and and make it a managed and orderly uh

00:44:53 uh assumption of that control coordination pushing then later into the evening of the 15th of june lfb triple zero six one two three eight

00:45:04 two three eight this is an email from you to toby gould hamish cameron and steve hamm to tell them of a conversation you'd had with emma strain who was the assistant director external relations at the gla

00:45:15 director external relations at the gla and your email um refers to city hall's concerns

00:45:19 concerns regarding grip again we can see that if you go

00:45:25 if you go please to

00:45:33 uh the second paragraph you you explained

00:45:37 explained what happened in the call given the concerns at city hall you say regarding the grip on the situation at rbkc she has said that if we have further issues to raise then we can do so

00:45:48 issues to raise then we can do so through her which will be passed through david bellamy anonymously if needed obviously this will be sensitive so not a wish list of gripes but just to make you all aware that we have that avenue should it be required

00:46:00 should it be required had you been told what was it what city hall's concerns were about rbkc at that time

00:46:07 time uh i think it was the the changing media approach to uh the rbkc situation and like i say there that the the grip which is uh as we discussed earlier quite a wide-ranging

00:46:19 discussed earlier quite a wide-ranging term but uh the control and exertion that rbkc were having on the situation right

00:46:26 right and what were those concerns specifically i can't remember exactly

00:46:35 then we go to lfb triple zero six one two four zero

00:46:41 uh and this is an email from you at 2204 to toby gould hamish cameron matt hogan and steve hamm overnight update no significant change to the situation

00:46:53 significant change to the situation and then if you go about halfway down the email you can see you say this llag activation this will not take place before 1300 most likely john b that must be john baradel we'll go to

00:47:04 that must be john baradel we'll go to our bkc to see what he's signing up to before he officially activates lnag mark is currently in rbkc trying to help them set out their stall my take on this spoke briefly to hamish we can use this

00:47:17 spoke briefly to hamish we can use this to show support to mutual aid through the llacc and potentially reduce commitment to recovery at aj mark's requests of us have diminished now that he spent a day in our bkc and understands the frustrations and the

00:47:28 understands the frustrations and the dangers of getting embroiled in sorting out a larger number of problems for them

00:47:33 for them um why did john baradel to your understanding need to see what he was signing up to before officially activating llag because he needed to to understand what it was so so john wasn't the official uh

00:47:45 it was so so john wasn't the official uh lag at that time i think there was almost a potential this was getting beyond what the london local authority gold arrangements were where a single chief executive was representing

00:47:56 single chief executive was representing on behalf of local government views right you told us earlier when i asked you that um if a chief executive asked for llag to be activated lag would inevitably respond

00:48:09 inevitably respond was is it to your understanding that john baradel might not he might say no uh

00:48:16 uh no i don't i don't think he was ever in the position or would have said no i think he just wanted to understand what the the scale and complexity was that it that he was going into and what it was that would be needed to

00:48:28 and what it was that would be needed to done to be done how much support was required around that but but in the meantime uh ln ag would not be operating it would be rbkc in control yes yes

00:48:41 and um

00:48:46 why would it be necessary to have that in that limbo period pending

00:48:54 pending john baradel working out what was needed why not go in straight away and

00:49:01 away and after activation and work it out at that stage uh

00:49:07 uh well it doesn't it doesn't make sense just to to rush in and then have that paucity of of working out what it is you're going to do at that point either well does it not given that our bkc was now being criticized from all sides in

00:49:18 now being criticized from all sides in its handling which had partly necessitated the invocation of lle lleg in the first place

00:49:27 i think it's probably a six or one half dozen

00:49:30 dozen of the other it was trying to get a a good start to to the lag arrangements uh coming in and understanding the exact extent to which they're operating right

00:49:42 extent to which they're operating right now you you see you say john b will go to rbkc to see what he's signing up to before he officially activates llag is that right was it within his power officially to activate lleg or was that

00:49:54 officially to activate lleg or was that left simply to the request by nicholas holgate as the chief executive uh nicholas i think this is probably my uh sloppy use of english uh quite late quite a late time in the evening right

00:50:05 quite a late time in the evening right was there a sense in your mind that lag were nervous reluctant perhaps to get involved have you been asked uh

00:50:13 uh no i don't think they were nervous or reluctant and i think that's that's shown by the level of support that did go in uh on the friday now you say in your first statement paragraph sorry before we

00:50:24 before we leave this email um i have to say that the tenor of that paragraph beginning llag activation leaves me with the impression that you and perhaps john baradel thought

00:50:36 you and perhaps john baradel thought that he was going to go in and take over in other words decide what should be done deploy resources take it out of the hands of mr uh elgate is that how you understood it

00:50:49 elgate is that how you understood it um

00:50:51 um this is quite a unique set of circumstances so so this is where the the arrangements that we have to respond to any emergency need a degree of flexibility in what we can do and i think uh we

00:51:03 in what we can do and i think uh we probably pushed the boundaries both of the lag arrangements and what we were asking individuals to to do in terms of come in and support in such a large scale incident

00:51:15 scale incident and

00:51:16 and almost run the show for nicholas holgate in response well you've used two interesting words there one is support and the other is almost run the show i mean there is a distinction isn't there

00:51:28 mean there is a distinction isn't there between providing support and taking over

00:51:31 over and i just wanted to understand how you and maybe others uh saw the position so she

00:51:38 so she never take over the whole council as i said uh previously there's other functions that take place but that control and response to the to the incident um

00:51:51 the incident um was becoming more pressing that that i don't think nicholas could have managed it on his own

00:51:57 own and needed that greater degree of experience in managing incidents that john had so who who was nominally in charge

00:52:13 i i don't know whether there's

00:52:17 there is actually a anomaly in charge because you you then got the royal borough of kensington chelsea and then what was formed in terms of the grenfell fire response team for which john was in charge of that

00:52:28 for which john was in charge of that that grew out of the

00:52:31 the what was termed gold that emerged in the days after thank you yes

00:52:37 yes yeah

00:52:42 now paragraph 88 of your first statement page 26 you say that the lleg arrangements were activated in the early afternoon and friday the 16th of june

00:52:54 friday the 16th of june um

00:52:56 um was the 19-hour delay between the decision being taken by mr holgate to invoke llag and the activation itself justified by any objective

00:53:08 by any objective or rational criteria

00:53:19 um [Music]

00:53:22 [Music] i i think it's just it was indicative of where we were up to at that stage in the incident and working through it collectively so that there was a full appreciation of what that lag role would be uh and what

00:53:34 what that lag role would be uh and what they needed to do when they took over i can't answer that question well uh

00:53:43 uh you haven't but uh you can perhaps you can answer this from what you could see at the time did that delay have any negative impact on the provision of emergency relief to those in need of it

00:53:59 not that i'm aware of but

00:54:03 but we can't

00:54:05 we can't repeat it and see what the impact would have been had it taken over at that time

00:54:13 16th of june friday let's move to that lfb triple zero six one two one nine please

00:54:20 please uh and i'd like i'd like to show you this entry in your logbook on page 16 for that day and if you go please to 9 11 in the morning

00:54:31 to 9 11 in the morning at the top of the screen it says call with mark sawyer regarding chris naylor's political concerns and potential need to is that message or massage

00:54:43 is that message or massage message message political lead from london council what does that entry mean uh

00:54:53 uh i can't remember the details of the call but that would have been a discussion between uh mark sawyer and myself uh around

00:55:00 around uh chris naylor's political concerns and the need for or i think what we were looking for is something from london councils to send out a message to all of the political leads what were chris naylor's political concerns

00:55:12 naylor's political concerns uh i think they were still the the same concerns that he had the other day around getting support to other politicians i i can't remember the exact details of what

00:55:23 what the any further concerns would have been right and what sort of political what sort of message from london councils did you have in mind when you said potential need to

00:55:34 mind when you said potential need to message political lead from london councils what what have you got in mind uh i honestly can't remember i don't know

00:55:44 what that would have been let's then turn to the 16th of june 2017. well let me just ask you before i go there

00:55:53 there was there

00:55:54 was there a sense of reluctance or um trepidation perhaps of lleg taking stepping into what might have been regarded by you at the time as a political minefield

00:56:06 time as a political minefield or what had become one not that i'm aware of did that account for the delay

00:56:15 a nervousness of stepping into what had become politically delicate

00:56:20 i i i don't know because i i wasn't aware that it was a hugely politically charged situation

00:56:27 situation uh i think that's quite apparent for everybody to see but um

00:56:32 but um i certainly have no indication that that was the cause of a delay at the time

00:56:41 yes let's go to um the hasg

00:56:46 the hasg can we go please to and there's a bit of background to this um

00:56:52 um there was a first meeting of the hasg by way of background on the 15th of june attended

00:56:59 attended by

00:57:01 by mark sawyer

00:57:04 and if you go please to lfb triple zero 61320 this is an email to you on the 15th of june so the evening before at 22 24

00:57:15 at 22 24 this is toby gould i'm sorry i said mark sawyer i meant to be good emailed to you of that evening and if you go to the fourth paragraph down

00:57:24 down hasg

00:57:26 hasg he says i assume i'll pick up our lead on this in the morning midday meeting i'm turning to the composition now to try to make sure they have all the right partnership people involved things look to be improving with h f providing the

00:57:37 to be improving with h f providing the secretariat but i'm not sure if any of the actions around establishing subgroups etc have been progressed this afternoon

00:57:43 afternoon the first meeting was all over the place short on various reps terrible teleconference facilities and i wasn't convinced they were given enough attention to very urgent business seem to be more focused on procedure and open

00:57:55 to be more focused on procedure and open questions than sorting out significant issues that are going on right now on the plus side i think all of the voluntary and many other orgs are doing fantastic work getting on with the job on the ground was that was the activation

00:58:07 was that was the activation of the hasg fairly standard response for a local authority responding to a major incident uh it was but it was it was rare and

00:58:18 uh it was but it was it was rare and hasg wouldn't be stood up for a routine incident where a rest center had been opened it would it would have been to a probably on in the previous 12 months the croydon

00:58:29 in the previous 12 months the croydon tram crash uh westminster terror attack and the london bridge terror attack would have been the the only occasions of an aksg would you accept that it's a core function for a local authority

00:58:41 function for a local authority yes

00:58:42 yes then there are emergency responses yes of course in an emergency response to your

00:58:47 to your recollection was the operation of the hasg ever practiced during training sessions

00:58:53 sessions uh

00:58:54 uh yes so it had been practiced through the exercise unified responder the year before in 2016. right were you concerned by what tb gold was telling you in this email that evening

00:59:09 uh yes it doesn't look uh a great start but as we've heard through the the previous evidence i don't think the humanitarian assistance assistance lead officer was expecting to undertake that role or had

00:59:21 expecting to undertake that role or had the necessary support around them to be able to do this did you do anything as a result of being told what we could see you were telling by toby gould that evening not personally because i i i knew toby

00:59:32 not personally because i i i knew toby had that the the reason toby is saying he's assuming he'll pick up the lead on this and had been involved was because he had supported uh the london borough southwark uh 11 12

00:59:43 uh the london borough southwark uh 11 12 days previously through the london bridge attack so he had the experience um

00:59:49 um and

00:59:49 and some of the networks into the the voluntary sectors to make sure that they were engaged and supported which is why he talked about trying to make sure that they have the right partnership people involved because he already had those those

01:00:00 because he already had those those linkages or some of those linkages did previously i see so is that is that why he offered to provide the secretariat to the hasg that's correct yes i see

01:00:10 yes i see then let's um go please to

01:00:20 lfb triple zero six one three two seven

01:00:26 this is uh an uh an email if we go to the foot of page one please you can see right at the very foot there's an email at 11 57 from donna wootton at eling

01:00:38 donna wootton at eling to a large number of recipients and copy ease at the top of page two we go to that please um you are emailed as well as matthew hogan and two and uh

01:00:49 hogan and two and uh toby gould as you can see and she says hi all can i put a in a request that either more resource or seniority is put into the lla cc link role i recognize

01:01:01 the lla cc link role i recognize priorities should be with rbkc and this is incredibly serious and dynamic incident but i personally am struggling a little bit here in getting any information or response to queries

01:01:13 information or response to queries and then she says the mutual aid requests are messy

01:01:18 and complicated and i recognize again it's dynamic situation but i've had to ask the

01:01:23 ask the three times to confirm a request and no one is answering emails or calls i have multiple staff who are trained competent and wish to help but i'd also like assurance that briefings will be forthcoming that rv an rvp isn't just

01:01:36 forthcoming that rv an rvp isn't just just the scene and really just replies to emails i've put aside today to brief and make sure all staff are ready to respond as best they can but i currently just have lots on standby unaware of their role we're sending staff into

01:01:47 their role we're sending staff into really stressful environments and i want to just want to make sure they have all the information and access needed and then the last line apologies for this in a stressful time but as i said just a little extra

01:01:58 but as i said just a little extra resource would help us help our bkc to the best of our ability now

01:02:05 now there are a couple of other confirmations along the same lines um if we go please to lfb triple zero six one three two seven

01:02:21 this is an email um from

01:02:25 uh palmer who is head of contingency in hounslow

01:02:31 hounslow uh

01:02:32 uh and and um twin palmer agrees uh with donna wooden's email and again you're copied into this it comes it only comes about nine minutes later all i agree also i

01:02:45 nine minutes later all i agree also i wanted to mention the lack of timely information every day and the lack of cap reports stroke situational awareness briefings which would be very helpful here locally i would also like to see the mutual aid be a little better and

01:02:56 the mutual aid be a little better and more efficiently coordinated as it's been quite frustrating locally here too echoing what donna says below and i understand you're doing a great job supporting this in a stressful time and a lot of us are willing to help

01:03:07 a lot of us are willing to help and your response and the response to that uh comes at the top

01:03:12 top of page one if we can just scroll up to that you're um

01:03:17 um you are a recipient of an email from toby gould just checking who's responding they could be sent segments stack reports the response on mutual aid is simply that we're having to process as and when we

01:03:29 we're having to process as and when we get them

01:03:34 and then if you go to nfb triple zero six seven seven eight

01:03:42 and there will be a question after all these documents but if you go to 6778-6778

01:03:51 that's lfb triple zero six seven seven seven eight first email down

01:04:02 um you respond at 1504 to tom palmer who's at hanslow and donna wooten at eling and also toby gould matt hogan

01:04:13 and also toby gould matt hogan and copied to others donna all thank you for for the email hopefully the latest email from the lnacc provides you with an update you need i appreciate your sense of a lack of information rest assured had there

01:04:25 of information rest assured had there been a risk from the plume we would have circulated that but had to prioritize in ensuring the right information verified and confirmed goes to those responding we will work to make sure it's more

01:04:36 we will work to make sure it's more widely available when there are significant changes to that released as you can imagine there are some very difficult issues being dealt with that it would not necessarily be appropriate to share on a more open basis and then you say this with regards to

01:04:48 and then you say this with regards to mutual aid we are doing everything we can to clarify requests but until last night had not received any formal requests from rbkc

01:04:59 and and

01:05:05 you you then just to finish this off there's an email on the 17th of june at lfb triple zero six one two five two

01:05:18 so this is the saturday now this is where this ends up second paragraph

01:05:25 paragraph have there been any comments on our overall level of support there was criticism of the mutual aid and lacc on friday i haven't got into the whole we are supporting other functions at the detriment of the

01:05:37 other functions at the detriment of the laccc yet

01:05:39 laccc yet but one to be in our minds if it does come

01:05:43 come can you now here's the question having shown you all of that material can you explain what you meant there by supporting other functions at the detriment of llacc so what were the other functions you

01:05:54 so what were the other functions you were supporting so the humanitarian assistance steering group the mass facilities coordination group providing the secretariat to those and some of the other

01:06:05 and some of the other wider responses so trying to pull together information on the uh

01:06:10 uh communications group etc and tying in those so so that's not uh written into either those frameworks that we provide that secretariat response and so

01:06:21 and so but because we had the experience because it wasn't going well that was where we felt the the gap needed to be plugged more urgently we hadn't had the mutual aid requests

01:06:31 requests up until the night before but it was becoming more apparent and more aware that there were mute multiple mutual aid requests going out or not just channeled through us in the the

01:06:42 just channeled through us in the the local authority coordination center but also going direct to service to service so so the end user in each of the 33 boroughs was getting multiple requests at different times of the day which became difficult for them to organize

01:06:54 became difficult for them to organize and agree to what collective cohesive support they could provide from their authorities as a whole right now we saw criticisms from the head of emergency management at

01:07:06 from the head of emergency management at healing and the head of contingency planning at uh and resilience at poundslay was there criticism in each case fair

01:07:13 case fair did you think uh it was partly fair it it wasn't a straightforward it wasn't a uh it wasn't as as good as the response we would wish to have we had a

01:07:27 would wish to have we had a procedure for mutual aid whereby a borough requesting mutual aid would provide a a form which describes what the effect they want to have achieved um as much notice as possible and where how

01:07:39 as much notice as possible and where how it would best be filled which we could go out to the boroughs with um but as i just described it was going across from different uh services so housing were going direct amongst the

01:07:50 so housing were going direct amongst the the directors of housing group and so that would have gone to a borough and and for the contingency planning manager in a borough they would have received all of these in in from the different forms so

01:08:01 these in in from the different forms so we'll have thought that it is becoming extremely messy um so it wasn't as good as we had wanted we were trying to get a grip on it at that stage right so yeah it was is it the case was it the

01:08:12 so yeah it was is it the case was it the case that the llacc's resources were being stretched too thinly yes now um lfb triple zero 61344 here is an email now 17th of june

01:08:25 uh if we go to the third paragraph down in this email it's from tabi gould to steve hamm and you and hamish cameron third paragraph term mass facts and humanitarian support are a drain i'm

01:08:37 and humanitarian support are a drain i'm hoping with three other la ep managers joining the mix tomorrow on ha we can position them well and limit our commitment but the expectation from john b is we will make it work it's a little

01:08:48 b is we will make it work it's a little galling when we're doing things k and c could do themselves if they had some of the staff in over the weekend who have the weekend off and whose jobs we're effectively covering what was there a problem with our bkc

01:09:00 what was there a problem with our bkc staffing levels that you had been encountering uh yes i don't think they had the the support staff in in place to manage this and i think that was evident through previous evidence that they've given that they

01:09:11 evidence that they've given that they didn't put the training and uh forethought into it if you look at the when i talk about scale and complexity the previous edition of the humanitarian

01:09:22 the previous edition of the humanitarian assistance plan so so 4.0 and my apologies that we provided the inquiry with with several various copies in the lead up to that but 4.0 provides quite a clear statement

01:09:35 but 4.0 provides quite a clear statement uh

01:09:36 uh in the early stages around page seven or eight of of the expectation of scale of response that we would expect either at a borough level or a regional level

01:09:45 level and then also uh halfway through what we expected a borough to have trained in terms of those numbers uh and i think we've seen through evidence that they just weren't there uh you say you've

01:09:56 just weren't there uh you say you've seen through evidence but was it your view at the time i think this was now becoming clear in the time that there was how could i describe that the response was almost hollow so i recall somebody

01:10:08 was almost hollow so i recall somebody but i can't remember who are pulling levers and nothing was happening when they tried to pull that lever so putting in place a humanitarian assistance group but there just wasn't the

01:10:18 the it's not just a a halo a lead officer who's able to do it they need they need a composite team behind them who understand the subject matter and are experienced in both secretariat and

01:10:30 experienced in both secretariat and convening work and then the project management work behind it to pull all of the various bits together a meeting doesn't just happen and all of them the actions get magically done it takes a lot of work behind to pull those pieces

01:10:43 lot of work behind to pull those pieces together um let's again go to lfb triple zero six one two five seven

01:10:51 uh we're now at the 18th of june 21 26 and here's an email from uh

01:11:00 uh matt hogan

01:11:04 you could see that from the foot of the email

01:11:07 email to a large number of recipients including you hi all you've seen on whatsapp hopefully that the llacc will be moving to westminster tomorrow morning

01:11:18 westminster tomorrow morning and uh in the next paragraph it has been agreed that all staff should stop all non-essential work in order to prioritize lacc llacc this is subject to change as the week progresses the only

01:11:29 change as the week progresses the only exception is that lrf will continue tomorrow supported by hamish and steve h

01:11:36 should it have should stopping all non-essential work in order to prioritize llacc have happened earlier than this

01:11:46 than this which is the 18th of june uh so we we've never done it for another incident where we've stopped all non-essential work uh normally we've carried on and we have uh the duty team

01:11:59 carried on and we have uh the duty team and then we we manage rotors between us to enable uh enough or other work to carry on in conjunction yeah um arguably we could have stopped earlier

01:12:10 arguably we could have stopped earlier but i think by this stage we were uh integrated into so many of those activities that we just had to stop everything else

01:12:20 right now going back in time then to the evening of the 17th of june the saturday night lfb triple zero six one two five two

01:12:30 this is an email from you to hamish cameron tabby gould and steve hamm

01:12:39 which we looked at before and in the last sentence you say as a question

01:12:44 question just to gain an understanding of rbkc response have we been working to their local plans for aj and recovery or regional plans and you tell us in your in your

01:12:55 and you tell us in your in your statement i think that you hadn't been able to find a response to that email that's right isn't it yes yes that is your second statement of paragraph 58 of page 18.

01:13:06 page 18. um let's actually look at that if we can please that's at um lfb double zero double one nine one three zero page eighteen paragraph fifty eight in the middle of the paragraph you say

01:13:17 in the middle of the paragraph you say i've looked over my emails and records from that time and have been unable to locate a response to that question from memory i believe that the rbkc response says to recovery was based on its local

01:13:28 says to recovery was based on its local plans

01:13:31 i cannot recall the position regarding humanitarian assistance but i think it would be it would be likely sorry it would likely have been based on the regional plans which is a reference to the humanitarian assistance framework

01:13:42 to the humanitarian assistance framework exhibited as jh 12 to my first statement both the local and regional plans referenced within the above email will have been framework documents setting up broad principles to be followed rather

01:13:53 broad principles to be followed rather than detailed situation specific plans my question would you expect to have been informed which plans the local authority was following if llag had been

01:14:05 authority was following if llag had been activated or was to be activated

01:14:14 uh i i don't think it would have made a a huge difference i think i was just trying to understand whether or not they had uh contextualized the plans uh specifically or whether it was the the

01:14:26 specifically or whether it was the the wider frameworks a number of boroughs do use the the regional frameworks as their uh overarching plan or their loose framework it's just sometimes they they add more detail and contextualization as

01:14:38 add more detail and contextualization as to how they will achieve that within their local plan did it concern you at the time that you didn't know which plan the local authority was following in its response

01:14:49 no it wouldn't be a huge concern they would have been based on the same principles and and to achieve the same thing it's just

01:14:58 just a question for for clarity at the time did it surprise you at the time that rbkc did not have a humanitarian assistance plan as david kerry has confirmed

01:15:11 i i would have expected them to have something in place that would have contextualized and uh put into the reality of rbkc's response that they knew how

01:15:22 that they knew how to discharge the the regional framework right

01:15:26 right mr chairman i've got one short line of questions to cover which won't take more than about five five minutes i or so um it would be more convenient to take them now and then take the break

01:15:38 to take them now and then take the break and would that get the end of your question yes yes and well i think that's much more central i agree thank you yes

01:15:44 yes now um thank you mr chairman now um let me take you please too gol40 is one seven two eight

01:15:55 this is a paper published by london resilience and the lap

01:16:01 the lap msl peer review results 2016 as you can see and the introduction says

01:16:09 says that this paper provides the complete results of the 2016 msl peer review the msl assist assessment provides an overview of london's collective local authority capabilities and preparedness

01:16:20 authority capabilities and preparedness for emergencies and also provides boroughs with an assurance of their individual organizational capability the results are intended to be used at both the london and individual borough level to inform collective and individual

01:16:32 to inform collective and individual improvement needs respectively and if we go to page five please in this document

01:16:40 document when we look at the last paragraph on page five

01:16:43 page five it says

01:16:45 it says overall the stabilized trends provide a positive picture it was never intended or expected that the msl would be 100 green in all boroughs the implementation of a three-year planning cycle

01:16:57 of a three-year planning cycle demonstrates confidence of existing capability amongst boroughs and a step towards unity of effort in planning the greater detail of new assessment also now provides targeted information for future improvements of those

01:17:09 future improvements of those capabilities with the introduction of ep 2020 and the standardization it is it is expected to improve on the scorings of amber and red ratings over the coming years lifting the standards

01:17:21 the coming years lifting the standards of london local authorities resilience planning

01:17:24 planning and now do you agree that it follows from this that it was never intended or expected that individual local authorities would meet all of the minimum standards for london yes yes

01:17:35 minimum standards for london yes yes if we go to page eight of the paper it sets out the performance of the 33 london local authorities

01:17:43 and there they are i think we looked at them on thursday um and

01:17:48 um and looking at it do you agree that on its face the worst performing local authority in this peer-reviewed self-assessment scored 16 green

01:17:57 green 16 amber and three red and it that is newm in the middle of the table uh yes

01:18:07 uh yes purely on numbers yes purely on numbers was was any action taken by london resilience to improve newham's performance after these results were filed with lap

01:18:19 filed with lap so that that's not our role to improve their performance as i stated on thursday one of the primary uh purposes of this was for uh the results to inform the borough's

01:18:31 to inform the borough's own business planning and it's their responsibilities and their duties that they're trying to discharge uh under this it's not london resilience group's job to improve individual boroughs we

01:18:44 to improve individual boroughs we provide guidance and support to them as a collective in their

01:18:49 in their their overall discharge of duties in ways in which they can achieve efficiencies yes

01:18:56 yes and see

01:18:57 and see comparatively how they do but um

01:19:01 but um does that tell us that there was no effective peer review or enforcement of standards

01:19:13 to be enforced by who sorry well quite that's the question let's break that up first of all it's self-assessment not peer assessment yes uh

01:19:24 yes uh on odd years yes but there was a peer peer review uh but by equals rather than an independent external peer review right so no no independent peer review in any uh yes and knowing is this

01:19:37 review in any uh yes and knowing is this right no enforcement by an independent enforcing body such as uh the nap or london resilience uh the local authorities planning london resilience are not enforcing bodies

01:19:48 resilience are not enforcing bodies exactly so and there isn't one there wasn't one no there isn't one no and i i i think it's also correct that there was no minimum threshold no minimum number of minimum standards for

01:20:00 minimum number of minimum standards for london that each individual local authority was required to achieve no no

01:20:07 no no so does it come to this these were loose benchmarking measures that it would be up to each local authority to score for themselves and then work out for themselves what to do in response

01:20:19 themselves what to do in response uh yes that's the framework that we that we work in with no auditing or directive powers uh to any agency yes

01:20:28 yes yes thank you very much mr chairman those are the end we've come to the end of my prepared questions right thank you uh and i'm going to ask for the usual break please yes well on this occasion

01:20:39 break please yes well on this occasion mr tetherington we can can combine the usual break which we have when council's got to the end of his questions with the break we need to have in the middle of the morning anyway so we'll stop now we'll come back at 25 to 12 and we'll

01:20:51 we'll come back at 25 to 12 and we'll see then whether there any more questions we have for you and as before please don't talk to anyone about your evidence when you're out of the room thank you very much thank you very much

01:21:09 thank you 25 to 12 please

01:37:07 would you ask mr hetherington to come back in please okay

01:37:18 all right mr ethan tim we'll see if there any more questions yes yes mr chairman thank you very much just one question which is a question we often ask certain witnesses and it's this mr hetherington looking back on the experience looking back on the evidence

01:37:30 experience looking back on the evidence that we've been through and what you now know is there anything in your role in the first seven days after the fire that looking back on it you would have done differently

01:37:41 you would have done differently um

01:37:43 there's a lot looking back with hindsight that perhaps we could have probed challenged uh more

01:37:49 uh more in terms of our role in a supportive way to that constructive challenge and

01:37:55 and uh at the time what we didn't we we maintain that we also hold together a partnership as as well it is a difficult role um we've obviously focused an awful lot on areas

01:38:07 obviously focused an awful lot on areas that that went wrong uh and i would like to say

01:38:11 to say uh publicly that sometimes we forget some of the staff went above and beyond and not always looked at so for that i'm immensely proud of of the team who did step up to the plate uh but where our

01:38:22 step up to the plate uh but where our best uh efforts uh weren't good enough then i can only apologize to the people of grenfell and we strive to continue to improve the way in which we work for future incidents

01:38:34 for future incidents thank you well mr heather included it remains only for me to thank you very much for coming here to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're very grateful to you so thank you very much thank you very much and uh can

01:38:46 very much thank you very much and uh can i add my thanks to mr hedgington on behalf of all the members of the panel i think we all found it initially rather daunting to see the uh pictorial structure of london resilience but we've really benefited from your explanation

01:38:58 really benefited from your explanation of how it works and your evidence about what happened on the days immediately after the fire so thank you very much indeed we're very grateful to you thank you and of course you're free to go thank you thank you

01:39:09 you're free to go thank you thank you very much

01:39:19 thank you mr millet now we have another witness waiting we do and we're having a change of witness and the change of counselling we are yes that's right mr sawyer is the witness and mr keating is the council right well uh in

01:39:32 the council right well uh in in those circumstances i think the best thing is if we rise for a couple of minutes to allow the usual arrangements to be made and perhaps you'd ask the usher to come and tell us as soon as you're ready very well thank you the keating can ask

01:39:44 you the keating can ask come and get us when he's ready yes thank you very much

01:47:07 yes mr keating good morning mr chairman good morning members of panel could i call mark sawyer please thank you

01:47:20 good morning mr sawyer uh you're going to affirm i think is that right i am thank you the words are there on the screen would you read them out please i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall

01:47:31 and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please sit down make yourself comfortable

01:47:40 thank you right thank you yes mr keating well good morning mr sawyer thank you very much for attending today and assisting the inquiry with his investigations just a few introductory matters as we said to all witnesses

01:47:51 matters as we said to all witnesses firstly if you have any difficulty in understanding any of my questions please do ask me just to rephrase it i'm sure it'll be my fault and secondly if i can ask you to keep your voice up so that the transcribers sitting to your right

01:48:02 the transcribers sitting to your right can capture evidence and also if he could ask you to avoid nodding or shake in your head because that's something which isn't picked up on the transcripts yes and lastly if you need a break at any stage just let us know i'm sure

01:48:14 any stage just let us know i'm sure that's something we can accommodate is that okay very much so in terms of a few formalities i want to just deal with your statements and identify them please you've provided three statements to

01:48:25 you've provided three statements to inquiry and i'm going to ask you to look at the first one which is gol401349 please and that is dated the 1st of july 2020.

01:48:36 and that is dated the 1st of july 2020. and if we could turn to page 25 please we see the date at the bottom and we see your name in print and can you confirm that's your signature that is my signature thank you

01:48:48 signature thank you and then if you could turn to your second statement which is

01:48:54 gol401839 please

01:48:57 that's your second statement and in relation to if you can turn to page 10 please that's dated the 27th of april 2022

01:49:08 that's dated the 27th of april 2022 and again can you confirm that's your signature it is excellent thank you and lastly your third witness statement which is very recent

01:49:16 recent and that's gol quadruple zero one eight four seven please

01:49:24 and we could turn to page three please that's dated the 12th of may 2022 so last thursday and again can you confirm that your signature it is and thank you

01:49:35 that your signature it is and thank you for accepting it so late no difficulty at all and in relation to those witness statements can you confirm that you've had the opportunity first of all to read them yes

01:49:43 them yes and are they true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes thank you and mr story to help you and to help the panel in terms of questions today they're going to fall into three broad areas

01:49:54 areas firstly and and briefly your role within the city of london corporation and the work you've undertaken in the field of civil resilience prior to june 2017. yes

01:50:05 civil resilience prior to june 2017. yes and secondly your operational involvement if i could label that's on the 14th of june and 15 to june including your liaison with all bkc the london resilience group and a duty

01:50:16 london resilience group and a duty london local authority gold and we'll touch upon your attendance on the 15th of june at the rbkc town hall where you're supporting nicholas holgate and at our senior or bkc staff so

01:50:28 and at our senior or bkc staff so that'll be the second area and and finally we will turn to an examination of some of the reviews and work you've undertaken in the months and years

01:50:37 years after the fire to review the emergency resilience structures there's a number of reports that you've had involved which is not correct correct so there are three broad areas and let's turn to the the first and the shortest one

01:50:50 the the first and the shortest one and your role please um and is it correct since april 2017 you've been the chief executive liaison officer brackets resilience for the city of london

01:51:01 resilience for the city of london corporation that is correct for the city of london corporation um however um in best way of describing it would be that i was hosted by the city of london

01:51:13 i was hosted by the city of london corporation but working to all 33 london local authorities who equally funded my position and i believe in approximately 2018 my job title changed

01:51:26 approximately 2018 my job title changed slightly however the role didn't change significantly to resilience advisor as compared to resilience liaison so same role but relabeled to resilience advisor yes

01:51:38 relabeled to resilience advisor yes hosted by the city of london corporation but assists all 33 councils correct and in relation to us is touched upon probably by its title our relabel title

01:51:50 probably by its title our relabel title what would you say your role involved as of june 2017 my role involved

01:51:59 assisting london local authorities and primarily assisting the local authorities panel to

01:52:06 to on resilience-related matters supporting the setting of agendas and the the level of conversation necessary on resilience at a regional level

01:52:18 on resilience at a regional level and

01:52:20 and with it with the additional responsibility of monitoring um preparedness across london local authorities on behalf of local authorities panel and assisting local

01:52:32 authorities panel and assisting local authorities and the london local authority gold arrangements should the unfortunate situation arise whereby we have an incident to deal with such as was the tragedy at grenfell

01:52:45 was the tragedy at grenfell so three main roles drawing out what you said just a moment ago first of all that sort of advice and support as you described in relation to preparedness which may involve policy and development

01:52:56 which may involve policy and development work secondly monitoring resilience via the

01:53:00 the local authority panel and thirdly in relation to the operation or activation of the llag is that correct correct

01:53:13 and it may be captured by your answer already but your role then as chief executive liaison officer that also included supporting a chief executive when responding to a localized major incident

01:53:25 responding to a localized major incident within their borough is that correct as as necessary and required yes

01:53:32 and is it right also as a result of your role you are a standing member of the local authorities panel correct and you're also a member of its implementation group correct

01:53:48 and you'll explain your statement of paragraph 49 that you have extensive experience in responding on behalf of local authorities to large-scale incidents in london i believe so yes

01:53:59 i believe so yes and the incidents you refer to include terror attacks severe weather events and fatal accidents is that correct correct

01:54:09 in relation to the london local authority gold llag we've heard quite a lot of evidence in relation to that from mr heddington and i'm not going to hopefully repeat that but just perhaps draw out a few

01:54:23 that but just perhaps draw out a few limited points please and

01:54:26 and it's fair to say that is one of the special features of the london resilience framework isn't that correct the llag

01:54:33 the llag of the london local authority resilience framework yes

01:54:38 and as we heard already it's a pan-london mechanism which can be activated in response to emergency drawing upon the resources of all 33 london local authorities led by a single

01:54:49 london local authorities led by a single chief executive is that a fair if not simple summary of the process it's a mechanism for coordinating on wide support to an incident yes

01:55:01 an incident yes you could just try and just raise your voice a little bit more and you just said it's a mechanism for coordinating london-wide support to incidents

01:55:10 incidents and and two points just in relation to that firstly in relation to the the mechanism the power is it the case that for it to be activated it would require

01:55:22 for it to be activated it would require a request from a local authority it'd have to be it'd have to be invited rather than imposed correct

01:55:32 and in relation to the process or procedure for activation is it right at the time that there was no formal recognized procedure for its activation when the gold operating procedure

01:55:44 when the gold operating procedure document

01:55:46 document the only uh procedure was the expectation that a a local authority who wished to activate the local authority arrangements bottom up

01:55:57 bottom up would make a a personal request exactly we don't need to turn to a document but there is a a guide which simply states that llh arrangements are activated when llg is contacted in

01:56:09 activated when llg is contacted in relation to an emergency which has occurred

01:56:12 occurred correct and if i may just add a slight um

01:56:16 um additional context to that um there is no as i'm aware a legal basis upon which local authority gold can

01:56:27 can intervene

01:56:28 intervene in the affairs of an individual local authority therefore it had to be a request rather than then imposed

01:56:38 i will return to

01:56:42 return to certain changes or modifications which have taken place in relation to guidance in our third part of the evidence in the post-fire work i want to move on to something which we're going to touch upon a few times

01:56:54 we're going to touch upon a few times which is

01:56:55 which is ep 2020

01:56:57 ep 2020 and that's ep one assumes stands for emergency planning it does and is it you set out in your statement but in 2016 you undertook a review of local authority emergency planning in

01:57:09 local authority emergency planning in london and that review was called ep 2020

01:57:13 2020 and what i'd like to do is with your assistance examine some of the aspects of this

01:57:18 of this really to provide an insight perhaps a short insight into the state of civil resilience in london in the period shortly before the fire in june 2017.

01:57:30 and you explain your statement at paragraph nine i'm going to summarize that the report ep 2020 was commissioned as there was a recognition by the local authorities panel of heightened pressure on councils

01:57:43 panel of heightened pressure on councils and an increase in external and internal risks is that correct correct and you touch upon some of those risks but did those identified risks include

01:57:56 but did those identified risks include quote a loss of corporate knowledge and capacity correct

01:58:02 and with your assistance i'd like to explore three specific points from the report and perhaps if you could turn to report it's dated this third of october 2016

01:58:11 2016 gol four zeros one five one five

01:58:22 you can see there it's dated the third of october we see your name and

01:58:27 and supported by david curry is that correct correct and that's somebody we've heard evidence from and who was the contingency planning manager at rbkc is that correct correct

01:58:42 if you could turn to page three please thank you

01:58:49 and it says in terms of the scope of your ep 2020 that

01:58:54 that um in relation to the local authority gold resolution that was not considered within the review the second paragraph it says this the two elements excluded from the review are the london local authority gold

01:59:06 are the london local authority gold resolution and the rota and the reasons why is this this is due to their proven proven effectiveness to underpin the collective and coordinated approach of authorities

01:59:18 and coordinated approach of authorities to significant incidents is that correct correct so the position is in this review you were doing after the london civil resilience and position

01:59:29 and position the

01:59:29 the llag at that stage wasn't seen as an area of concern correct and that's why it wasn't within the scope of your report correct

01:59:45 if we move down to overall assessment this i'm just going to read the first paragraph there there's a developing trend of reduced capacity and capability across london the ability of our authorities to discharge a leadership

01:59:57 authorities to discharge a leadership role and resilience to the level communities would expect and deserve is under strain to prevent further degradation of disservice and potentially explo expose ourselves to undesirable levels of risk

02:00:09 ourselves to undesirable levels of risk this report suggests a number of actions chief executives may wish to consider to bolster the service and enhance resilience is that correct correct

02:00:20 i want to deal with capacity the second point in relation to this ep 2020 report and to do so could we turn to page 8 please

02:00:28 please and paragraph 3.1.1

02:00:34 it's the bottom of the page thank you so much

02:00:37 much review findings and recommendations emergency planning services and it says this emergency planning staffing levels are at the lowest point since 2009 with a downward trend established since the 2012 olympics

02:00:49 2012 olympics we'll turn to the figures in a moment this reduction reduction combined with continuing demand for effectiveness across authorities has the potential to significantly affect our ability to satisfy the expectations of our

02:01:01 satisfy the expectations of our communities and assure them that we possess the appropriate means to prepare and respond where necessary to myriad of resilience challenges that need to be addressed

02:01:11 addressed this includes our ability to deliver effective authority-wide support to our communities and develop a culture of community resilience across our locality is that correct correct so in

02:01:23 locality is that correct correct so in effect this report is sounding a warning that numbers are down in terms of capacity isn't that correct very much so if we turn overleaf to page nine

02:01:34 if we turn overleaf to page nine and we see those pictorial graphs which were referred to in the previous paragraph

02:01:39 paragraph and

02:01:40 and figure 3.0 shows a downward

02:01:45 graph in relation to staffing levels isn't that correct correct and we see in terms of emergency planning staff levels per authority kensington chelsea been there center

02:01:56 kensington chelsea been there center west

02:01:58 west relatively high actually with four members

02:02:01 members staffing levels isn't that correct correct

02:02:06 in relation to those staffing members does that is it the case that they do not show staffing levels in relation to what we've heard of at council silver's beck staff

02:02:17 beck staff lelos no this was solely numbers of designated emergency planning personnel

02:02:26 and whilst doing your reports and in terms of capacity this is at very much a high specialist level what you're dealing with did you have any information or insight as of 2016 whether that downward trend in

02:02:40 of 2016 whether that downward trend in capacity was also reflected in those roles such as layla's beck staff council silvers

02:02:47 silvers i

02:02:48 i there was a a a an additional part of this process which did look at that level of detail which was overseen by london resilience group on behalf of lapp and i have no doubt that some of that

02:03:00 and i have no doubt that some of that data would have been taken into consideration in this report and what was your view then in relation to that additional process and additional data i'd need to remind myself of what that

02:03:12 i'd need to remind myself of what that said but but i think it would be fair to say

02:03:15 say that following the olympics you'll note that downward trend combined with the financial burdens and strain that local government was experiencing at that time

02:03:26 experiencing at that time did lead to a concern regarding the numbers of people assigned to deal with resilience in emergency planning across across local authorities okay thank you

02:03:37 authorities okay thank you if we could move on please the third area i want to touch upon is the minimum standards for london which the panel have heard evidence about this morning and in the past about we've also heard questions being proposed to david curry

02:03:49 questions being proposed to david curry in relation to but with your assistance could we turn to page 12 please of this report

02:03:55 report and we could look please at paragraph

02:03:59 paragraph 3.2.1 which is at the bottom this is under the heading of governance and planning perhaps just puts into a little bit of context the minimum standards of london introduced in 2007

02:04:11 in 2007 comprising 16 standards designed to ensure all london local authorities have the appropriate policies and procedures in place to support the london local authority gold arrangements

02:04:23 authority gold arrangements sets out how in 2009 a second tranche standards were published detailing the specific requirements of plans and capabilities each authority should maintain

02:04:33 maintain these plans and capabilities range from generic emergency response functions to humanitarian assistance and excess death plans

02:04:43 and it goes on a second paragraph a review of the minimum standards for london assessments conducted annually reveals a minimum minimal downward trend in immediate operational response capabilities

02:04:54 operational response capabilities then it says this of concern however is a significant downward trend in meeting standards relating to plans and capabilities

02:05:05 capabilities so this is the msls have been in since 2007.

02:05:09 2007. so

02:05:10 so just

02:05:11 just nine years by this stage that had been updated as as they described at 2009 and your report your words of concern however is the significance downward

02:05:23 however is the significance downward trend in meeting standards relating to plans and capabilities is that the position correct is anything else you wanted to add in relation to that concern at this stage nothing that springs to mind immediately

02:05:35 nothing that springs to mind immediately well perhaps we can just explore that a little bit more and if we see at the bottom of page 12 figure 3.4 minimum standards for london plans and capabilities

02:05:46 plans and capabilities compliance by year and we see overleaf at page 13.

02:05:52 we see um a table and it says the assessment's most recent assessment by that stage december 2015 and and we see three columns green amber

02:06:03 and and we see three columns green amber and red

02:06:05 and red green bean effectively there's no concern

02:06:07 concern operational and amber is it right include indicates operational but requires development and red indicates not operational is

02:06:18 and red indicates not operational is that a fair description correct and in very basic terms there was a percentage increase in relation to amber and red rose over that year from december

02:06:29 december to december 2015 with

02:06:33 with just under a quarter of assessments having amber which includes which means operational but requires development is that correct correct and there's a an increase i'm

02:06:44 correct and there's a an increase i'm not sure if slight increase is the right terminology but there is an increase to 2.67

02:06:50 to 2.67 from

02:06:51 from 0.67 percent in relation to red

02:06:56 if we could turn to the last msl peer review results which are 2016 and that's at gol0050 in fact 136

02:07:07 gol0050 in fact 136 please

02:07:11 so you did your review you had the 2015 results of msl's and this a document which we actually have seen already this morning with a different reference i'll just give that reference for

02:07:22 just give that reference for um to note the previous reference and relations document is gol401728 so i believe we've got the same document two different references and to identify this document it's msl

02:07:34 and to identify this document it's msl peer review results 2016.

02:07:37 2016. and it says this paper updates the local authority panel on the status of burr's assessment following the msl peer review 2016. if you could turn to page 2 please

02:07:51 and we look at paragraph five or section five trends for capabilities if you recall that was one of the areas that you would express to concern about

02:08:03 that you would express to concern about in relation to in your ep 2020 report we're here a little bit later in time in 2016 with some more information and it says this transfer capabilities

02:08:14 and it says this transfer capabilities overall 10 capabilities have been identified as having more than a quarter nine or more boroughs reporting an amber or red raid rating and i'm going to mention some of those

02:08:26 and i'm going to mention some of those we can see it in that table training provided by boroughs humanitarian assistance evacuation and identification of vulnerable persons is that correct correct

02:08:44 and applying that to all bkc for a moment the inquiry has heard and seen evidence that rbkc reported amber in relation to those named capabilities trading

02:08:55 those named capabilities trading humanitarian assistance identification of vulnerable persons was it a matter of concern from your perspective that over a quarter of boroughs

02:09:06 that over a quarter of boroughs including rbkc reported this in their self-assessment that they were either amber or red in 10 capabilities it was a concern it would have been a concern what i'd just like again if i

02:09:19 concern what i'd just like again if i can add a bit more context of course the msls serve two purposes and i think you may have heard this morning one of those is to inform an individual local authority who has the statutory duty

02:09:31 authority who has the statutory duty where its weakness is where it strengthens it and then inform local business planning in terms of addressing the second purpose of msls was to inform lap local authorities panel

02:09:44 lap local authorities panel with an indication of trends themes

02:09:48 themes things which potentially would benefit from

02:09:52 from some level of regional support and i use the term support because the local authorities panel has no legal basis upon which you can assist insist

02:10:02 insist that an individual local authority does anything with what is produced so lap generally operates and continues to operate on the basis of producing

02:10:14 operate on the basis of producing guidance producing advice strong argument and and relying to some extent and my apologies for this a bit of common sense in terms of

02:10:25 in terms of we've provided you with the tools it's now really you're encouraged to to adopt what's been provided so you mentioned it it was of concern but also in the context that

02:10:38 but also in the context that this is to assist the local authority to identify

02:10:42 identify where they have areas to develop and also to identify trends that's the context

02:10:48 context but

02:10:49 but we're dealing with perhaps more than a quarter of local authorities having which require development dealing with humanitarian assistance identification of vulnerable persons

02:11:01 of vulnerable persons how much of a concern was it that this seemed to be relatively widespread

02:11:09 in 2016 i was commissioned by local authorities panel to do the review ep 2020 but the the the secretary at the management of discussions at lap was

02:11:21 management of discussions at lap was facilitated through london resilience group and not directly by myself so i wouldn't wish to comment in terms of lap's view on on that i can give you a personal view which is that would be of

02:11:32 personal view which is that would be of a concern

02:11:34 a concern and we've heard already this morning and your evidence as well is if is that the lap

02:11:39 lap is there to in terms of standards to encourage

02:11:43 encourage compliance and meeting and improving but in terms of enforcement there's no power in relation to enforce those standards no power whatsoever that's in relation to the msls

02:11:54 relation to the msls which are the minimum standards of london this is pre-fire and later on this afternoon we'll deal with what's replaced the minimum standards for london the or sls isn't that correct

02:12:05 for london the or sls isn't that correct yeah and i'm happy to explain some of the rationale for why that change was required yes we'll cover that i just wanted to just assist with having a context of the landscape in which we

02:12:17 context of the landscape in which we explore events in june 2017. at the final point and it perhaps is covered by your last answer in terms of concern we've also heard evidence within the individual msl report for all bkc

02:12:29 the individual msl report for all bkc that they had no capability in other words it was read for the appointments of a humanitarian assistance lead officer a halo

02:12:39 a halo was

02:12:40 was the absence of an operational capability for something such as that as a halo would that be a matter of concern to

02:12:48 to to you back in 2016. it would have been of concern but i would have expected rbkc to have addressed that it was within within their gift

02:13:00 it was within within their gift to

02:13:01 to identify appropriate senior level officers and ensure that they were prepared to undertake their role yes

02:13:11 finally in terms of your ep 2020 review in 2016

02:13:16 in 2016 you made a number of recommendations which were made by you to the local authorities panel for implementation commencing in early 2017. and is it correct that following the

02:13:28 and is it correct that following the grenville tower fire those recommendations were incorporated and updated in your epi 2020 refreshed report which was april 2018. that's

02:13:39 report which was april 2018. that's correct

02:13:40 correct so your recommendations in 2016 there was a process where they're going to be implemented then we have events in june 2017 and as we're here this afternoon a number of post-fire

02:13:52 this afternoon a number of post-fire reviews including you refreshing your report

02:13:57 report yes correct that however the the refresh was based upon uh primarily a peer challenge conducted and commissioned by london councils that

02:14:09 commissioned by london councils that considered not just grenfell but the other significant incidents that occurred in 2017 yes so it was a consolidated review which then led to

02:14:20 which then led to that report being published

02:14:24 published the assurance review being published and therefore refresh dp2 the ep 2020 consolidated all of that those recommendations and we'll deal with those three reports and that consolidation this afternoon

02:14:37 consolidation this afternoon i'm going to move on now to your involvement on the 14th of june and in terms of your notification you helpfully set out your statement we don't need to turn to

02:14:49 your statement we don't need to turn to a paragraph 27 that you first became aware of the fire by text and email around 4 40 in the morning is that correct correct so upon that notification what was your

02:15:00 so upon that notification what was your role

02:15:01 role upon being notified my role really was to monitor the local authority initial response and

02:15:11 and i think that was demonstrated by identifying that the message to local authority gold had been incorrectly directed

02:15:20 directed and so that was my initial role was to to monitor the level of response

02:15:25 response and we could perhaps touch upon that we know that there was an on juicy london local authority goal that being andrew blake herbert chief executive london bureau of havering

02:15:35 havering he was on duty as it happens until nine o'clock

02:15:38 o'clock and what you're referring to is that the notification had been sent to the next

02:15:43 the next um

02:15:44 um london local authority gold under rotor who was chris naylor who was due on at nine o'clock is that correct correct

02:15:54 what role would the juicy london gold using the short term have

02:16:01 have in those circumstances so for instance andrew blake herbert or chris naylor whoever was on duty what would their role be

02:16:08 role be their role in at that point would be to monitor the situation and assure themselves that

02:16:16 that the local authority concerned rbkc um were fully engaged um and were not expressing any immediate issues or concerns

02:16:27 concerns and how would they assure themselves that the local authority were fully engaged they would have to take it as said on the scg had they dialed into the scg

02:16:40 so your answer was they would have to take it either the london gold judy logan would they would have to take it said on what was

02:16:48 was reported at the scg had they dialed into the scg correct was there an expectation in those circumstances that the duty llag would would dial in or attend an scg in those

02:17:02 would dial in or attend an scg in those circumstances it was discretionary on occasions london resilience group will offer to dial into an scg or into a partnership call or whatever

02:17:13 or into a partnership call or whatever nature of call is held and then report back but in this situation um the the the um i believe

02:17:24 the the the um i believe um local authority gold was informed about the um informed about the call and then the interaction between them and london resilience group occurred which then resulted in them not dialing

02:17:36 which then resulted in them not dialing in i believe okay so i don't want to conflate what would the expectation being what happened actually in in in in the circumstances so in enormous circumstances very much

02:17:47 so in enormous circumstances very much one of your areas would your expectation be

02:17:50 be that's the juicy lleg would sign in for that for this type of incident yes yes

02:17:58 yes but you did say it's discretionary so there's no there's nothing that says that they must dial in to an scg no particularly in this situation because it was a single based

02:18:09 because it was a single based borough incident

02:18:14 and in relation to that point about it being a single based borough incident what was the significance back then if any of that distinction

02:18:25 could you ask the question of course well you mentioned that this was a single incident at it was it was contained within a local authority did that have any significance in terms of what a duty llag would do yes uh i i

02:18:39 what a duty llag would do yes uh i i think it would because um i would expect london local authority gold or andrew blake herbert at the time to dial in and just assess as to whether there are

02:18:50 and just assess as to whether there are wider implications whether it be the plume could extend into other boroughs etc uh as an example yes um and so so so it's it's two functions really one is to

02:19:02 it's it's two functions really one is to to to to assure that rbkc had everything it needed and the second one was to assess as to whether there were wider implications

02:19:12 okay well let's examine what happens and then we can we can update those answers if need be so the notification email you received at 041 informed you that there was an scg a strategic coordination group

02:19:24 scg a strategic coordination group meeting that's to be held at five o'clock

02:19:27 o'clock and is it a position that you decided to attend that meeting as you believed it would be unlikely that the on juicy london local authority gold would be able to attend because of the short

02:19:38 able to attend because of the short notification correct

02:19:42 and you mentioned in your statement at paragraph 30 that by dialing in this allowed you to hear the briefing on the situation and ensure that you are in a good position to provide advice if required to the juicy llag

02:19:56 required to the juicy llag london resilience group or john baradel chair of the local authority panel correct

02:20:03 correct so that's that's the circumstances in which you dialed in to that first scg and

02:20:10 and as you were listening what view did you form about the scale of the incident the view that i formed was that it was big

02:20:18 big however there was still a lot of information not currently available uh hence i i i work on the basis of that's why there was a

02:20:28 was a follow-up scg pretty soon afterwards but but it was because there was there was a portal of information at that point and in terms of headlines what did you consider

02:20:38 consider were the areas where there's a positive information uh

02:20:42 uh in terms of the number if i recollect what's what i wasn't fully excited on was as to

02:20:54 as to how many um had the building been fully evacuated you know the numbers of people directly affected

02:21:02 affected um and uh

02:21:04 um and uh yeah i think to be honest with you it was it was numbers and the data that was that was lacking that would then have given me a good a better indication of of actually the scale of this

02:21:17 of of actually the scale of this the scale of the tragedy so big

02:21:20 so big absence of data in relation to numbers so that you could fully assess the true scale yes the incident

02:21:29 david curry um for all bkc have you worked with in the past closely one assumes on ep 2020 he participated on the call

02:21:39 the call and what view did you form of rbkc and their input during that call their participation in the call gave me a sense that

02:21:51 gave me a sense that they were engaged they had deployed um layla's to the scene there was in so in that in relation to that

02:22:00 that the right conversations should have been taking place the fact that david was very experienced and there was nothing raised on the call

02:22:11 and there was nothing raised on the call that said rbkc had challenges or difficulties that they were unable to deal with

02:22:20 summarize what you say at paragraph 31 which chimes what you told us a moment ago

02:22:25 ago following the seg i concluded that or bkc were actively engaged in the established multi-agency response

02:22:33 response as a result i reverted to monitoring emails sharing information with john baradel and liaison with london resilience group is that correct correct

02:22:44 resilience group is that correct correct is it fair to say at that stage did you envisage london local authority gold having any active role in the response no not unless requested

02:22:59 did you anticipate at that stage that there would be an imminent request no

02:23:12 and does it follow did you form a view as to whether or bkc had sufficient resources to deal with the humanitarian needs of those affected in the fire at that stage

02:23:23 that stage that is something that i didn't consider and was very much reliant upon the information provided

02:23:38 so is this a fair summary you listened in on the call from what you heard didn't raise any concerns or flashing alarm bells but

02:23:49 but in terms of humanitarian needs that's something which you didn't independently consider at that stage whether or bc had a capacity to deal with the consideration of the humanitarian

02:24:00 the consideration of the humanitarian need would have been considered but i hadn't considered the possibility that rbkc wouldn't have the staff resource um to to deal with what was required

02:24:15 we know that the next scg was at 0 6 30 um which you didn't attend nor did you attend any of the subsequent seg meetings that day on the 14th of june

02:24:28 meetings that day on the 14th of june can you explain why that was for two

02:24:32 for two reasons

02:24:34 reasons one was that i was receiving information around those meetings i was aware that um london resilience group were briefing

02:24:45 london resilience group were briefing local authority gold i was aware of offers of support coming into rbkc so they weren't just being left stranded to deal with this and um it was only towards the end of

02:24:58 and um it was only towards the end of the first

02:24:59 the first day the 14th that then the concerns started to materialize regarding their capacity and ability to deal with um the the challenge that they faced

02:25:16 and the other side my apologies the the other um for want a better word foul safe was that resilience group provide dedicated support to

02:25:27 support to london local authorities we have a good professional working relationship with them and had they themselves expressed any concerns or had concerns i would have expected

02:25:39 or had concerns i would have expected them to have raised it with with me and potentially with john baradel as well and were you aware that your colleagues from the london resilience group that they would be on those calls yes

02:25:51 they would be on those calls yes so from the surrounding information you took the view that you didn't need to be on the call you were where llog colleagues were on were on the sags and

02:26:02 and in relation to the juicy g's so andrew blake herbert for those first three sdgs we had one at five o'clock one at 6 30 one at 8 30. he

02:26:14 o'clock one at 6 30 one at 8 30. he didn't attend chris naylor didn't attend the 1400 or 1930. so none of the gtlags attended either

02:26:23 either that's correct and was that something that you were aware of that there was a non-attendance by the gtlags at the point whereby it was still being considered a single borough incident

02:26:38 considered a single borough incident and until such point that it became clear that rbkc weren't

02:26:43 weren't able to effectively deal with their responsibilities i would suggest that there was no need for local authority gold to be on

02:26:55 need for local authority gold to be on those calls

02:26:57 although you did see say earlier on that in relation to monitoring the role of the juicy llg to monitor the response for bkc and that there would be perhaps

02:27:08 for bkc and that there would be perhaps a benefit even in a single local authority instance of having a duty lag on the sag coal isn't that correct on the first call on the first call yes

02:27:20 we've then then continuing to receive briefings and updates following every seg with the option to say actually

02:27:29 actually i'm not comfortable with this perhaps i do need to dial in but they will be basing that upon the advice and and information being provided to them also by london resilience group

02:27:41 by london resilience group but would you accept bear in mind at the five o'clock seg where you mentioned that there was data deficits gaps as to assessing the scale of the incident

02:27:53 incident that it would have been a benefit of having a

02:27:55 having a an experienced chief executive calling in

02:27:59 in and monitoring to see if things were in hand

02:28:03 hand in hindsight potentially yes however

02:28:07 however i believe that the subsequent scg had the rbkc chief executive so so you know their peers local authority gold has a specific function but that is an

02:28:20 has a specific function but that is an equal in terms of uh position and role it's just really in relation that word monitoring as you mentioned that

02:28:29 that it may not be the practice then of having a having a duty lag calling in but whether it would have had a benefit if there was somebody who's

02:28:41 somebody who's separate from the immediate response who was able to perhaps give peer support or advise

02:28:48 or advise the local authority chief executive of difficulties which were apparent to that person

02:28:55 person again in hindsight i guess i could i could definitely see the value of that however

02:29:01 however rbkc i believed understood the way in which it could secure additional support and where it could secure that

02:29:12 and where it could secure that additional peer peer peer support just dealing with one discrete matter you mentioned your belief and it's in your statement as well your belief that nicholas holgate was at the next scg at

02:29:23 nicholas holgate was at the next scg at 6 30.

02:29:25 6 30. and

02:29:26 and the i think the wider evidence is that that's although maybe noted down somewhere is incorrect he wasn't at the next seg just just by way of record okay

02:29:39 i want to move on please the circumstances prior to the next scg which is which we've heard as it was at 08 30 and perhaps with your assistance we

02:29:50 and perhaps with your assistance we could look at an email you received just before then there's a series of emails i'd like your assistance upon that's j g o l

02:29:58 o l five zeros two one eights please

02:30:07 okay

02:30:10 so did we see that this is just give me one moment from thank you

02:30:20 we look at the body of the email there toby gold to you 804

02:30:27 to update you on the current situation in local authority gold situations this is pre the next seg as you can see in the second paragraph and

02:30:39 and this we see at the third paragraph is is where that misunderstanding emerged nicholas holgate was on the oh 630 seg via teleconference

02:30:50 via teleconference knc's preferred method rather than attending the sor we've heard that already is that the special operations room

02:30:56 room yes just pausing there for a moment best practice is there any best practice here as to whether a chief executive in those circumstances should attend the special operations

02:31:08 should attend the special operations room at lamberth or whether they could participate via teleconference the original thinking was that uh a chief executive would or should i say

02:31:19 chief executive would or should i say chief executive council gold yes would would um

02:31:24 would um make their way into sor that was the original thinking

02:31:30 thinking yeah subsequently if we're talking about this particular incident then yes there was

02:31:37 was the thinking was that council gold would go into sor and i'm going to use council gold russian chief executive and what would the the benefits of council gold in that situation be from moving from their

02:31:49 situation be from moving from their headquarters or town town hall and coming to lambert for that meeting what would advantage be one of the advantages is that

02:31:58 is that rather than dialing in via teleconference you're

02:32:03 you're establishing strong relationships understanding across equals around the scg table and i think

02:32:14 body language is is an interesting benefit

02:32:19 benefit of of

02:32:20 of of sitting there face to face with someone as well as by being in that environment it fast tracks the conversations outside of the scg's

02:32:31 the conversations outside of the scg's and and issues and problems are more easily addressed i believe so benefits with face-to-face communication in terms of original thinking to use your phraseology is there guidance or was there guidance

02:32:43 is there guidance or was there guidance anywhere which said that in such an event council guy gold should attend

02:32:50 attend the sort i would need to refresh my my memory but but that was uh if i may add one of the reasons why local authority gold at that time was invited to visit

02:33:01 gold at that time was invited to visit sor to familiarize themselves and then understand the environment in which they may be asked to to operate but but sorry my apologies i just need to clarify that

02:33:12 my apologies i just need to clarify that was very much predicated on local authority gold response going into sor and very much predicated on the basis that that would often be in a situation where more than one local authority was

02:33:23 where more than one local authority was affected so i wouldn't like it to see that it was set in stone that council gold would go in there but there would have been benefits in that happening thank you

02:33:36 and we see in the middle of that paragraph

02:33:39 paragraph nicholas and chris nicholas holger and chris naylor the oncoming llag at nine o'clock are in agreement that nicholas will lead local authority engagement in scg from the meetings to date i would agree

02:33:50 from the meetings to date i would agree that seems the best approach nicholas thinks that aside from housing needs which may spill over borrow boundaries there is no need for llg to be stud up

02:34:06 and were you content at that stage in relation to what toby gold said was the best approach that the scg would be the lead would be taken by the local authority

02:34:18 authority i i had no reason not to believe that was an accurate assessment i think i think this is where again the clarification around the role of local

02:34:29 clarification around the role of local authority gold and how it interacts with council gold is an important one there is a distinction and so in terms of using terminology

02:34:40 and so in terms of using terminology like lead engagement in the scg local authority gold is a coordination communication and representative role the lead for the response would still have been council gold

02:34:52 have been council gold in terms of the local authority contribution yes and in relation to llag what do you understand by the phrase llag to be stood up

02:35:04 llag to be stood up where it says that bottom of paragraph three

02:35:10 three it's just my personal impression of that would be that local authority gold would become more actively involved

02:35:23 and at that stage when you've heard that um there's no need for llg to be stood up

02:35:32 we then move on to the next part which says this chris naylor is aware that we may need to seek his approval for mutual aid requests the panel have heard us very recently although not requested by

02:35:43 very recently although not requested by knc we will be staffing the llacc to offer coordination support if required

02:35:50 is that correct correct so from your perspective as a chief resilience liaison officer at that stage what was your view as to

02:36:01 that stage what was your view as to progress

02:36:02 progress and the state of matters prior to the o830 scg my view based upon this email was that rbkc

02:36:14 were dealing with the incident and as described it didn't require any wider london-wide support at that time and we see at the top of that email if

02:36:25 and we see at the top of that email if you just scroll up a little bit please that you forwarded that email which you received at 0804 to john bardel at 0813

02:36:34 correct and two minutes later at 08 15 he received john baradel a separate email from john heddington which you were copied into and perhaps we could just deal with that by way of completeness

02:36:45 completeness jol401473

02:36:50 we could scroll down to the initial email

02:36:54 so we see at 0.750 the source of this lag needs to gear up that's nicholas holgate's email to toby gold copying in their duty llags

02:37:08 we see the bottom i do not yet think lag needs to gear up correct correct and then

02:37:19 and then the email from john hedderington where it says all our content if we scroll up please just a little bit thank you

02:37:30 are we able to move up the page just a slight bit thank you

02:37:38 i think we're on page two if we could go up to page one please

02:37:44 thank you so the email in the body there which is the 0815 email we were referring to and

02:37:52 and the message going to john baradel is paragraph two all are content at the moment at all bkc retain the lead at this point and we'll keep you updated through the

02:38:04 and we'll keep you updated through the day

02:38:07 correct correct [Applause] and top of that thread your email back to toby gold you've been copied into it always 18.

02:38:18 18. looks like job done cheers

02:38:21 cheers mark what did you mean by looks like job done

02:38:25 done i have no idea well let's think about it it's it's a short email we've had these we could see the context which we spent

02:38:36 we could see the context which we spent some time running through at owit 15 which effectively says or bkc retained a lead at this point you mentioned earlier on that the view was that london authority gold

02:38:49 the view was that london authority gold doesn't appear to be actively involved is that what you meant it looks like job done

02:38:56 done i would suggest that is likely to be the motivation behind that message which was that it had been clarified that rbkc were leading the incident

02:39:07 were leading the incident there was no need for local authority gold

02:39:10 gold to actively be involved and therefore other than making sure rbkc continued and and had continued to be in a position to lead on

02:39:21 continued to be in a position to lead on the response then there was no need for wider london wide

02:39:27 wide involvement

02:39:31 and just to add a slight nuance to that was it the case that's because it was a self-contained incident in a single local authority

02:39:42 local authority in the circumstances as you described was that the view also that job done

02:39:50 the fact that it was a single borough incident being led by the accountable authority in terms of the local authority aspect of this being led by the accountable authority

02:40:03 led by the accountable authority the fact

02:40:04 the fact that

02:40:05 that they as as i believed understood the way in which the gold arrangements worked

02:40:13 worked and were available should the situation change

02:40:17 change they had what i believed was experienced emergency planning personnel who who i understood to know how that system works and therefore until such point

02:40:28 and therefore until such point that the situation changed um

02:40:32 um the the incident was being managed by rbkc

02:40:37 rbkc and in relation to that view you formed did you speak to john baradel that morning or early afternoon after these communications i believe john baradel was potentially

02:40:49 i believe john baradel was potentially interviewing that day so i'm not sure i don't recall direct face-to-face conversations with him until later on in the day when we started um when some of the concerns started to materialize and

02:41:02 concerns started to materialize and hence we had the conv the the tele conference um call at 5 30 that evening but you're going to move on to in just a moment so your role going forward at this stage on the 14th what would your

02:41:14 this stage on the 14th what would your role if any be from this email saying job done it was simply just to continue to monitor i was i would would have remained copied into scg minutes had

02:41:25 remained copied into scg minutes had they occurred and other information being shared by london resilience group but it very much was a monitoring role

02:41:36 and in terms of you mentioned how current concerns emerge in the afternoon can you tell us when that was and what were the nature of those concerns

02:41:47 of those concerns i i don't know precise timings yes but i think

02:41:51 think there were two areas of concern one was uh

02:41:55 uh the the the rise in media coverage and some of the stories that were starting to be um aired didn't quite match with the sort of information that we were

02:42:07 information that we were had received previously in the day and i think john baradel may be able to add more to this but i think he was aware of lots of offers of support and

02:42:18 aware of lots of offers of support and help

02:42:18 help um being declined um or not being taken up and so really it was just something that needed to happen to just sense check

02:42:30 sense check the situation within within the borough and something that you know um john baradar as chair of local authorities panel would inevitably have wanted to do

02:42:41 would inevitably have wanted to do okay well let's move on to that 1730 conference which took place with nicholas holgate john baradel chris naylor the juicy llag john

02:42:52 chris naylor the juicy llag john hetterington who we heard already from london resilience group and john o'brien of london councils um

02:43:00 um you state this at paragraph 34 of your statements that following a conversation with john bardell i was asked the liaison the lrg london resilience group to set up a conference call

02:43:11 to set up a conference call can you help with that that discussion and when that discussion was the discussion with john heverington would have been at some point late afternoon but with sufficient time for the call to then be set up for 5 30.

02:43:24 the call to then be set up for 5 30. and before that call and in fact the person's idea to set up the call from your statement appears to be it was john barrowdale it was john baradar and it would have been in discussion with me yes and what was the nature of that

02:43:36 and what was the nature of that discussion with john baradel which prompted setting up the

02:43:40 the conference call i believe it would have been to do with the the media coverage and and knowledge of some of these offers thank you of support

02:43:52 perhaps we could turn to jol 50170

02:44:01 again the panel may have seen this already this is an email

02:44:06 an email by you 1546 we can see who it's sent to including chris naylor john o'brien john henry and john baradel category red category

02:44:17 category red category as discussed on the phone the two main reasons for our call when nicholas are to gain a better understanding of the likely support k c require going forward to support strategic decisions and how this is best delivered

02:44:29 this is best delivered fundamental to this is resilience at the highest level ensuring appropriate strategic support is available to nicholas if required and to consider wider implications for knc and london as a whole and determine

02:44:40 knc and london as a whole and determine initial actions to address that's your email setting out the purpose for the call

02:44:49 call and

02:44:50 and was was that they your words was that your idea or is that what was suggested to you by john bardel as the purpose for the meeting i don't recall but the principle behind

02:45:03 but the principle behind um establishing the conference call had been set following previous incidents in 2017 where there had been value in um

02:45:15 where there had been value in um local authority gold if if activated and those chief executives who were from the affected boroughs london councils um who obviously support the sort of

02:45:26 um who obviously support the sort of political perspective and leaders committee in london getting together for once a better word a bit of a scrum down yes and and and seeking

02:45:38 and seeking insight from nicholas in terms of what his potential needs were going to be over the coming days so that with local authorities weren't

02:45:49 a in the dark and secondly playing catch up if there was to be something that materializes that needed wider support yes

02:45:58 yes and in relation to your role during this call were you there as a watching brief or you would that were you there to provide advice bear in mind your expertise

02:46:07 expertise i very much saw it as a chief executive chief exec call but clearly if if i could add value to the court then i would have made a comment i would have i would have contributed

02:46:19 have i would have contributed and do you recall providing any advice during this call on the 14th of june at 17 13. i i don't recall but i'd if i may add some context that yes john baradel is vastly experiencing this and actually

02:46:32 is vastly experiencing this and actually john and i had a strong working relationship so the sorts of things that i would be thinking about i have no doubt he would have been thinking about as well and you had that conversation

02:46:45 and you had that conversation on your evidence earlier on where there was concerns developing regarding the response correct by

02:46:53 um save for

02:46:56 save for a short

02:46:57 a short summary of the call in an email which the panel has seen and we may touch upon in a few moments by john hedwigton there was no formal minutes or personal notes taken by you of this call is that

02:47:09 notes taken by you of this call is that correct correct and what why where does why was a no note are minutes taken of this call well i think i think uh i had probably agreed with john herrington that he would

02:47:20 with john herrington that he would produce a note afterwards so whether it be in an email it was still a a precede of the conversation and

02:47:30 and it was for once a better word an informal conversation between nicholas and the other chief executives for them to just gauge the situation and

02:47:41 for them to just gauge the situation and see what level of support might be required so it wasn't a formal part of the structure it would be classified i guess as an opportunity to gauge what level of peer support is required

02:47:52 support is required and during that call did nicholas holgate from your recollection state any concern that he had in relation to the council's capacity our ability to continue to lead the humanitarian response

02:48:04 response no and and i would suggest that john heatherinson's procee is fairly accurate of the conversation

02:48:13 can you recall whether there was any concerns expressed by anyone on that call regarding the ability of rbkc to cope with immediate aftermath i

02:48:23 i can't recall the exact detail of the conversation but i think as a an indication that rbkc would have benefited from support were the decisions to deploy

02:48:35 support were the decisions to deploy staff

02:48:36 staff into the borough the next day and included within that were communications staff subject matter expertise in terms of um recovery from from london bridge from

02:48:49 recovery from from london bridge from southwark et cetera and and lacking all of course

02:48:52 of course and then

02:48:53 and then immediately after that call i think john baradel had a further conversation with nicholas where it was agreed that i would also go in to provide support in a similar way as i had provided to other local authorities

02:49:05 had provided to other local authorities in a similar situation not in a similar situation

02:49:09 situation provided to other local authorities in response to other types of incident so without having a precise recollection of of the conversation

02:49:21 recollection of of the conversation if we look at what flowed from the meeting

02:49:25 meeting your view is that there must have been an identified need to support or bkc is that correct i would suggest that there was an increased nervousness

02:49:37 an increased nervousness in terms of what was being stated and actually what was reality well let's develop that a little bit more so there's an increased nervousness by

02:49:48 there's an increased nervousness by those who were listening on the call by what was being stated by what was being said by or bkc is that correct

02:49:56 correct that would have been my personal take on it yes

02:50:00 it yes and as a result of that increased nervousness there was during this call was it the case that there was offers to support or bkc more yes

02:50:09 yes correct

02:50:11 correct and in relation to those offers to provide further support can you recollect whether there was any resistance to any additional support no i don't believe there was

02:50:27 in terms of your specific role your evidence a short while ago was that you believe that there's an additional call after this teleconference and then that you were at between mr

02:50:39 and then that you were at between mr holgates and mr baradel and as a result then you were asked to deploy the next day correct and i think that's referenced in john heatherington's proceed where he talks about post

02:50:50 proceed where he talks about post call note absolutely

02:50:55 you said you've done it before provided that sort of assistance would that be

02:51:00 that be unusual

02:51:01 unusual in those circumstances for you to be deployed to assist at a local authority the fact that i believe i've done it twice in 15 20

02:51:12 believe i've done it twice in 15 20 years suggests it is unusual and

02:51:16 and in both situations uh it was not as as quickly as i was required to go into rbkc

02:51:25 into rbkc um on on the sort of 24-48 hours after um the in if you'd like the context the first time i was deployed into a borough whilst i worked for london fire

02:51:37 borough whilst i worked for london fire and emergency planning authority was in support of westminster city council's response to the alexander litvinenko poisoning

02:51:47 poisoning and the fact that there were multiple locations across london and actually across the country where there was potentially contamination and i supported westminster in terms of the recovery program but more

02:51:59 the recovery program but more importantly provided the conduit and link between the the fast-paced police investigation and

02:52:07 and those boroughs that potentially had contaminated locations within their borough so it was a facilitation role and and ensured that the wider sort of rather than it just being westminster

02:52:19 rather than it just being westminster focused that there was actually a view across across london the second incident that i responded to was the potential risk of flooding in croydon

02:52:29 croydon where again it was it was there was a sense that um they needed some level of support um and uh i provided what i could to them and helped in whatever way i could it's

02:52:40 helped in whatever way i could it's relatively exceptional for you to be deployed

02:52:42 deployed and to be deployed so quickly yes we'll probably turn to your deployments um after lunch and break but i just want to deal with a couple of more emails if we can before then

02:52:54 was it the case at that stage by the afternoon evening after 14 of june was there did you sense any reluctance of london resilience group or

02:53:06 of london resilience group or the the lap to be

02:53:08 to be getting drawn in into any long-term support

02:53:14 i believe uh

02:53:16 uh i i

02:53:18 i i i don't think there was any reluctance from from local authorities panel i believe that there was some conversations regarding within london resilience group and potentially that i had with london

02:53:30 and potentially that i had with london resilience group around whether rbkc were providing the right level of support to the various functions that they needed to deliver

02:53:42 functions that they needed to deliver and and the need to ensure that london resilience group didn't

02:53:47 didn't get embroiled in areas of which potentially rbkc should have been taking responsibility for

02:53:56 so you're referring to the view of the london resilience group and john hedderington there's an email which the panels sold just this morning in relation to that

02:54:07 this morning in relation to that and

02:54:09 and what was your view as to that opinion expressed our viewpoint expressed by the london resilience group about not being i think your word was embroiled may i

02:54:20 i think your word was embroiled may i ask what type the time and dates when those of course um let's let's quickly show it it's lfb triple zero six one two two nine

02:54:31 thank you mr sawyer and it's at 2304

02:54:36 it's an email you haven't seen but the panel have seen today um you are not on the distribution list but there's a reference to the discussion between you and mr heading heterington

02:54:49 heterington and we see in a second paragraph or bkc support mark is meeting with all bkc to discuss their arrangements for

02:54:57 for humanitarian assistance and recovery i've made the point it's going to be a very long process

02:55:05 i've made the point to mark that being you mr sawyer that they should look to consume this in everyday business as far as possible so that we don't get drawn into long-term support mark agreed with this i think we'll need

02:55:17 mark agreed with this i think we'll need to do something but i think if possible some advice early days to bring the right people together then let them get on with it again we've heard evidence in relation to that

02:55:27 to that is that a fair summary of your discussion with john hetterington i think that would be fair to say and i think that we need to take into account that this was still

02:55:38 this was still an rbkc led local authority response there was

02:55:43 there was and

02:55:44 and i can't

02:55:46 i can't john everton would probably be better placed to explain this but i think that there was a concern amongst our lrg at the time that they were being asked to deliver functions and and

02:55:58 functions and and for once a better word back out from the local authorities um and and and therefore local authorities themselves needed to take more direct responsibility

02:56:09 responsibility particularly for some of the administration things that there should be no reason why they don't have the capacity within the system to do that allowing london resilience groups to then

02:56:20 resilience groups to then revert to their primary role which is to some extent subject matter expertise as well sure and i think the word you just knocked against the microphone where it was bail out was it there was a concern

02:56:31 was bail out was it there was a concern regarding them bailing out yes authority thank you

02:56:34 thank you and perhaps the final email we can touch upon

02:56:39 is one which is sent the following day lfb triple zero six one three one zero

02:56:48 and it's an email you sent to toby gold

02:56:53 toby gold you were barely working on the 15th of june

02:56:56 june and it says this toby we had a call with nicholas yesterday evening prior to seg and made the points that he needs to gap analyze his needs and then support can be more

02:57:06 be more focused currently city of london are supporting comms and sodok are supplying sme advice posing there could you help us with sme subject matter expertise subject matter

02:57:19 subject matter expertise subject matter expertise

02:57:20 expertise david kerry and that's a phrase you've used already david curry has been tasked overnight to produce the road to recovery loosely based on an agenda for thor

02:57:30 thor smt this morning perhaps you could assist us with that what's thor i assume it's a typo and it should be the smt this morning okay i thought it was some

02:57:39 was some special which i wasn't familiar with okay so that's a typo smt is senior management city management okay

02:57:47 okay and and in in the context of this uh smt i would imagine i was referring to their council gold meeting their council so we've all bkc gold we've heard that they had had meetings

02:57:59 we've heard that they had had meetings twice a day that's what we're referring to thank you

02:58:03 and if we scroll down just to deal with this

02:58:06 this email

02:58:07 email thread

02:58:09 thread it's a response from an email sent by toby gold

02:58:13 toby gold 1107 the night before you are the recipients and i'm just going to ask you to focus on the last paragraph there

02:58:24 on the last paragraph there i know you're joining so this is what toby sends you the night before i know you're joining our biggest kc colleagues in the morning and we'll be discussing with hamish it will be good to get an honest broker

02:58:35 it will be good to get an honest broker appraisal of what we slash other broker boroughs are likely to need to help them with

02:58:41 with i think today they've been too busy to consider a lot of the offers of support with at least five boroughs offering support on behalf their ceos i think that should be considered alongside our potential to help if gaps need to be

02:58:55 potential to help if gaps need to be filled

02:58:57 filled was that how you saw your role getting an honest broker appraisal when you attended the town hall on the 15th of june

02:59:07 not necessarily solely an honest appraisal of what needs they wanted but it was more of an appraisal of their ability to cope with what they were being asked to to deliver so does it follow that you were down

02:59:19 so does it follow that you were down there to provide support but also underlining that you were there to see whether they were doing what needed to be done correct and and if i may add

02:59:30 correct and and if i may add we may cover this at the end of all the questioning i think i think if i had this time again i would certainly have made an earlier assessment that they needed more direct

02:59:41 assessment that they needed more direct input

02:59:42 input but at the time i went there and and i needed to

02:59:46 needed to to better understand what was happening and and that that didn't happen immediately well i'm sure we will come back to that and give you the opportunity to to develop that the last question

02:59:58 develop that the last question is this bear in mind what has you mentioned earlier on about concerns regarding discuss between you and john bardel regarding offers of support being made and we see here again what's been said

03:00:11 and we see here again what's been said that five boroughs have offered support was that a flashing warning light to you that or bkc were too busy to consider offers of support

03:00:23 it was um part of building that picture what i didn't understand was why they weren't taking up the offers of support

03:00:34 support um whether there was information not available that that that would have led to them making that that forming that opinion themselves and that was wasn't something i could do at 11 o'clock at night and it wasn't

03:00:46 at 11 o'clock at night and it wasn't something that you could do remotely you had to get in there really understand what it was what was happening and then make an informed decision

03:00:56 but too busy to consider officer support could suggest an organization is overwhelmed is that one

03:01:03 one potential scenario definitely and i also could suggest a lack of strategic oversight as well definitely okay

03:01:11 okay well we'll move on to the 15th of june um just after the luncheon break if that's acceptable mr chairman yes that's a good point to break i think well we'll stop now um

03:01:22 well we'll stop now um mr sawyer so that we can all have a chance to get some lunch and we'll resume at two o'clock please and i have to ask you as all the other witnesses while you're out of the room please don't talk to anyone about your

03:01:33 please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it thank you very much

03:01:47 thank you very much two o'clock thank you

↩ All hearings