Module 8 - Presentations Relating to the Deceased - Monday 11th July 2022 (1/2)

Full transcript

00:00:29 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing we're going to begin today by hearing evidence from dr carl harrison the lead uh forensic archaeologist who

00:00:40 the lead uh forensic archaeologist who was concerned with the recovery of the remains of the deceased from grenfell tower later on today we shall hear further presentations from uh noise representing uh the bereaved yes mr millet yes mr

00:00:53 uh the bereaved yes mr millet yes mr chairman good morning to you good morning members of the panel before i call dr harrison the forensic archaeologist i should just give a trigger warning uh

00:01:04 i should just give a trigger warning uh in his evidence there will maybe accounts or images that people might find distressing including descriptions of the identification and recovery of human remains so i should raise that at this stage so that those

00:01:16 raise that at this stage so that those following the proceedings either in here or remotely on the live stream can absent themselves or look away if they wish to thank you subject to that then mr chairman may i now please call

00:01:27 then mr chairman may i now please call dr carl harrison thank you

00:01:38 good morning dr harrison i i gather you're going to take the earth so you have the testament there would you please take it in your right hand and read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth

00:01:50 give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much please sit down and make yourself comfortable

00:02:04 yes just to be yes good morning dr harrison thank you very much for coming today and assisting the inquiry with its investigations we're extremely grateful to you just a couple of of housekeeping pointers if i may may

00:02:16 of of housekeeping pointers if i may may i ask you please to keep your voice up so that the transcriber who sits to your right can get down everything you say very clearly also please if you're answering questions from me don't nod your head or shake your head say yes or

00:02:27 your head or shake your head say yes or no as the case may be so that the transcript can pick it up now you've provided for us for which many thanks a phase two witness statement

00:02:36 statement which is at kha701

00:02:40 and we will have that in the screen in front of you is that the first page of your statement it is and if we go to page 50 you can see a signature above your name in print

00:02:51 see a signature above your name in print and a date of the 8th of june 2022 is that your signature it is can you confirm well have you read the statement recently i have and can you confirm that the factual matters that you've set out in it are true to the

00:03:02 you've set out in it are true to the best of your knowledge and belief yes i can and can you can also confirm that the matters set out in it uh which are expressions of your opinion are your true and genuinely held professional

00:03:13 true and genuinely held professional opinions that's true now it's right i think that this statement describes in general terms the approach and the methodology of your team of forensic archaeologists that was engaged in the recovery of the

00:03:25 was engaged in the recovery of the remains of the deceased at grenfell tower is that correct that's correct can i then start with your qualifications and your professional background um you set those out on page one can we

00:03:37 um you set those out on page one can we go to that please at paragraphs one three and four uh and there is also if we go to page 44 and on to page 45 a cv

00:03:49 and on to page 45 a cv if we go to the bottom there we can see that you just begin to describe yourself and that description continues over to the top of page 45 there for the record

00:04:01 there for the record um

00:04:02 um summarizing it if i can with you um i think it's right that you hold a phd in archaeology and forensic science from the university of redding that's true and an msc in forensic archaeology from

00:04:13 and an msc in forensic archaeology from bournemouth university i do and also i think a diploma in crime scene examination from the university of durham yes and in addition a ba honours degree in

00:04:24 and in addition a ba honours degree in archaeology and ancient history also from the university of redding that's true and i think uh you were awarded an honorary dsc for services to forensic science by the university of west london

00:04:35 science by the university of west london that's true and listed as an external advisor with the national crime agency i am i was at the time right and i think you are a member as that today is this right of the chartered institute for archaeologists

00:04:47 chartered institute for archaeologists that's true and you think i think you sit on the expert panel for forensic archaeology yes and is it right that you've acted in the capacity of forensic archaeologists over a period of some 20 years

00:04:59 a period of some 20 years that's true and that would include excavation and recovery of human human remains from clandestine graves yes lending your expertise to extended police searches for clandestine burials

00:05:11 police searches for clandestine burials yes the direction and conduct conduction of i think is the word you've used of forensic excavations that's true and the recovery of associated evidence types

00:05:22 associated evidence types yes yes and i've broken those down because there are distinct stages in in a number of processes but i think it's right isn't it that you are also a cri a trained crime scene examiner and manager yes i am and you have something like

00:05:33 yes i am and you have something like seven years experience of working in those roles within uk police forces yeah i do and a director of electo forensic services limited from 2013 to 2021.

00:05:44 services limited from 2013 to 2021. that's true yes and i think it was in that period that you were working on the recoveries from grenfell tower that's correct and your current role is this right is national forensic specialist advisor with the national crime agency that's true right you you obtained that

00:05:57 that's true right you you obtained that role i think last year 2021 nine months ago yes nine months ago so just in the round is it fair to say that you have very considerable expertise and experience in forensic archaeology okay

00:06:08 experience in forensic archaeology okay yes

00:06:09 yes thank you now i want to go back to paragraph one page one please of your report

00:06:16 report or your statement and you say here that as follows i was the lead forensic ecologist and director of electo forensic services limited from 2013 to 20-21 and was responsible for leading

00:06:28 20-21 and was responsible for leading the team of forensic archaeologists who provided scientific assistance during the search and examination of grenfell tower

00:06:35 tower can you briefly explain to us what it means to be a forensic ecologist forensic ecology is a is a catch-all definition within forensic science

00:06:46 definition within forensic science that includes disciplines that would be regarded as being classically ecological um dealing with uh insect soil plant life it also tends to include um archaeology

00:06:59 it also tends to include um archaeology and anthropology as disciplines within it so it's a it's a capsule term that tends to use within forensic science contracts and how is that different from a forensic archaeologist

00:07:10 forensic archaeologist it's an umbrella term within which forensic archaeology falls so my reporting discipline the discipline i would write statements of opinion on is forensic archaeology

00:07:21 opinion on is forensic archaeology but in my position at alecto i would write forensic strategies and advise police forces and i would take samples related to a broader range of evidence

00:07:32 related to a broader range of evidence types that were ecological in nature were there any such exercises in the work you did at grenfell tower ecological exercises no no it was entirely archaeological right

00:07:47 now i think it's right that you and your team started your work within grenfell tower on the 16th of june the 16th would have been around the outskirts of the tower that's correct i think it was the 17th

00:07:58 that's correct i think it was the 17th when we gained entry right and just to be uh we'll just help you the 16th was the friday yes and the 17th was the saturday i think that you then

00:08:08 then you had a planning meeting there before that uh with the met on the 15th of june thursday

00:08:14 thursday 24 hours or so after the fire that's true

00:08:17 true uh now is it right that you and dr deborah ryder managed a team of some 36 forensic archaeologists we were the main uh coordinating archaeologists who who managed the

00:08:28 archaeologists who who managed the archaeologists that were attached to the search teams of police officers yes right and you provided scientific or archaeological specific scientific assistance to the the search parties as it were that's correct right

00:08:40 parties as it were that's correct right and could you just explain who deborah ryder is so deborah ryder was an employee of alecto at the same time she's a forensic archaeologist that i trained she holds a phd in in

00:08:54 that i trained she holds a phd in in forensic archaeology with a concentration on dna ancient dna

00:09:01 she's worked on numerous forensic archaeology cases in the past and what was her role on the grenfell tower team she uh took a a co-director role with

00:09:13 she uh took a a co-director role with myself on the team because it required coordination over seven days a week um we shared the responsibilities right now your team of 36 were mostly trained to msc level in forensic science

00:09:25 to msc level in forensic science discipline of one kind or another is that right that's correct um and they did they also all have or mostly have extensive complex major crime scene experience there was a range of experience and they were they were

00:09:37 experience and they were they were utilized within the tower in different spaces according to their level of experience they all had some experience and the majority of them had been educated and trained by myself at

00:09:48 educated and trained by myself at masters level in my prior university post right and can we go to page two of your statement please and look at paragraph five

00:09:58 uh it start which starts at the foot of page one but let's pick it up in the second line second sentence at the top then just using that as an edwemor for you could you tell us in broad terms

00:10:09 you could you tell us in broad terms what it was that your team was instructed to do it's a very general question i appreciate but generally within grenfell tower once you've started work the use of our team was

00:10:21 started work the use of our team was dynamic and it it altered as the police response altered within the tower and it's laid out in the in the table below really that there was a a primary

00:10:32 below really that there was a a primary phase of work in which we were acting in a response manner so initially that was outside the tower seeking to assist uh police search officers in the

00:10:44 uh police search officers in the identification of human tissue

00:10:48 that developed into working within the tower

00:10:52 tower to attend areas where primarily london fire brigade staff had said that they believed that they were bodies present and we provided some confirmation around that

00:11:03 confirmation around that once those sites were confirmed we then moved into an excavation phase focusing on those sites in the first instance where we were hand excavating over the top of those remains

00:11:15 over the top of those remains and then the much longer period of our search

00:11:19 search which was the um the comprehensive sieving of all debris within the tower yes now we'll look at those faces in a little bit more detail shortly but before we do can i ask you to cast your

00:11:31 before we do can i ask you to cast your eye down the middle of the screen to paragraph six and you say there i worked both around and inside the tower throughout the forensic examination that lasted from june to december 2017. together with dr

00:11:44 june to december 2017. together with dr deborah ryder i manage the team of archaeologists teams of archaeologists deployed into the tower on a daily basis i have firsthand knowledge of the nature of the tower following the fire the state of human remains and the

00:11:55 state of human remains and the strategies adopted to ensure their recording and recovery now you say you managed the teams of archaeologists how did you go about supervising or overseeing the work of

00:12:08 supervising or overseeing the work of those teams so supervision direct supervision it was very challenging within the tower because of the need to work within separate flats because of the

00:12:19 the we recognized very early on the potential that mixing debris would have in limiting our ability to identify people's remains

00:12:30 people's remains so the archaeologists who were deployed within the tower were working with search teams in individual flats they were effectively closed fire scenes individually

00:12:42 individually so the process of management underwent a different a number of phases we would

00:12:49 we would establish strategy so depending on the nature of

00:12:54 nature of the fire debris within a flat in question

00:12:57 question intelligence related to whether we believe there to be remains present within that flat whether a recovery had already been made and as a consequence we believed there

00:13:09 and as a consequence we believed there to be more fragments of human remains to be present within it

00:13:13 within it all of those then would fit within our strategy of how we would approach that particular flat in question so the the archaeologist being tasked with the search team would understand

00:13:25 with the search team would understand their role in the first instance they would receive some further on-site training in identification of burnt bone albeit that

00:13:36 identification of burnt bone albeit that that's their background so they've got that that aspect of experience already um and then they would work alongside the search team under the uh the authority of the lead

00:13:49 uh the authority of the lead search for for that flap that they're working within and provide the technical expertise to assist those search officers in identifying bone fragments primarily

00:14:00 primarily on a daily basis we would um have a um a series of of briefings and debriefings both as a as a group as a whole with the dvi and search teams but also separately

00:14:13 dvi and search teams but also separately as a as a group of archaeologists and we'd have representation at the forensic strategy meetings to ensure that

00:14:22 that our approach was was recognized within those broader strategic decisions right and how frequent were the forensic strategy meetings that you've just referred to

00:14:33 meetings that you've just referred to initially um they were they were very frequent and very dynamic as you can imagine they settled into a weekly routine can we go to page three of your

00:14:45 routine can we go to page three of your statement

00:14:47 statement and let's look at paragraphs uh 10 and 11. just look at those uh

00:14:54 uh you say that that most of the methods used by forensic archaeologists to relate to controlled means of excavation or controlled excavation what do you mean by controlled excavation in those paragraphs

00:15:05 paragraphs forensic archaeology is most usually associated with a criminal recoveries so a a a body buried in a uh in a clandestine grave a

00:15:16 buried in a uh in a clandestine grave a hidden grave uh from which the police are attempting to to optimize the evidential recovery and in those instances you've got a an area of disturbance dug by an offender and filled in with a

00:15:28 dug by an offender and filled in with a body within it so ensuring that the excavation recognizes the parameters of that grave excavates within it recovers and records

00:15:39 excavates within it recovers and records material in a methodical fashion is that is the core of the forensic archaeologist's um skill set

00:15:46 set this is somewhat different because we have a flat surface and debris is gathering on top of it it's accumulating through the fire and through the later collapse phases which creates layers of material

00:15:58 material most of the human remains are very low down within that stratigraphy of of debris so excavating down to ensure that

00:16:10 the body is revealed in its entirety that fragmentary remains that are still directly associated with that body remain in position and continue to be associated with it

00:16:21 associated with it and where

00:16:22 and where bodies are located very close to one another that that wherever possible those the material from each can be recognized and recorded as being separate

00:16:33 separate and if you look at paragraph 12 towards the foot of the screen you say

00:16:38 you say that

00:16:40 that your forensic archaeology work differs from the process of search and digging used by fire investigators that's what you say what are the principal differences between your work as a forensic

00:16:52 between your work as a forensic archaeologist and the work done by forensic fire investigators so digging out excavation of fire scenes is a is a recognized process that fire investigators would undertake as part of

00:17:03 investigators would undertake as part of their roles the the primary aim of the fire investigator in doing that is to try to locate the lowest point of burning within a room because those low points of burning will tend to be seats of fire

00:17:16 of burning will tend to be seats of fire and as such might be origin points for that fire

00:17:19 that fire the fire investigators key role is in identifying the the cause origin and development of fire within a within a space this is a somewhat different um gold in

00:17:31 this is a somewhat different um gold in terms of the the recovery of fragmentary human remains so that the two methods look very similar but uh but they're structured differently within a forensic strategy

00:17:40 strategy and how did your strategy or strategies as a forensic archaeologist uh

00:17:45 uh get

00:17:46 get designed to work alongside the work of the fire investigators um so we we there were no fire investigators working with us uh within the scene the fire investigators who

00:17:57 the scene the fire investigators who were deployed were within the the flat of origin rather than within the the fires the burnt scenes throughout the rest of the tower so our strategy

00:18:08 so our strategy was more integrated with the strategy of disaster victim identification that the police were used to using rather than the fire investigation strategy right so there was no overlap or need

00:18:19 there was no overlap or need to

00:18:20 to arrange things between you no no the flat of origin was sealed off and we didn't undertake any work within it until their work was completed there let's then go to page 30 of your statement please

00:18:31 statement please and look together at paragraph 79 you say there under the heading deployment of archaeologists you say archaeologists were attached individually to teams of

00:18:42 were attached individually to teams of dvi and lsa officers with a remit that altered depending on the phase of operation archaeologists were recorded as being part of those teams and would only change deployment location if requested by another team and when

00:18:54 requested by another team and when escorted by a second team member to ensure they did not move alone in the tower

00:19:00 tower now

00:19:01 now you refer that to dvi and lso dvi is disaster victim identification is it that's correct and lso is this right means licensed search officer that's correct i see and were those teams dvi

00:19:13 correct i see and were those teams dvi and lsa

00:19:15 and lsa metropolitan police teams for the most part as the search continued then mutual aid was drawn upon amongst a wider range of forces primarily from the

00:19:26 wider range of forces primarily from the southeast of england but police forces yes i see

00:19:31 and what is the difference between the expertise of a dvi officer and a lso a licensed search officer the principal role of a dvi officer is

00:19:42 the principal role of a dvi officer is to ensure that the chain of continuity that is provided by the unique reference number that accompanies any identified human remains so all of the processes of dvi are designed to ensure that the

00:19:57 dvi are designed to ensure that the chances of a fragment of human remains either being missed or being wrongly attributed to a person and then repatriated to the wrong family are

00:20:08 repatriated to the wrong family are absolutely minimized the role of a licensed search officer is somewhat more general they are utilized within policing to search for things in accordance with

00:20:20 to search for things in accordance with the search strategy so they could be defensive searches so a um a a location that is going to receive a visit from a vip will be searched in

00:20:31 visit from a vip will be searched in advance to ensure that no devices have been secreted there that would be a role that would be undertaken by a licensed search officer so they are searches but they are not directly and specifically associated

00:20:42 directly and specifically associated with the search for human remains and is it from either the dvi team or the lso team that the information would the primary information would come to you

00:20:53 information would come to you such as

00:20:54 such as there is a 63 year old female with a potential disability in a particular flat yes frequently via the uh the dvi

00:21:05 flat yes frequently via the uh the dvi coordinator or the serm the search evidence recovery manager who would be on duty on any given day and sir serm search evidence recovery manager that's correct and that that said that's

00:21:16 that's correct and that that said that's a role associated with dvi rather than with search right and i think it answers my next question we can pick that up i think in 80. you refer to the term crime scene manager csm serm scrm and

00:21:29 crime scene manager csm serm scrm and dvi coordinator there serm you've explained stands for scene evidence recovery manager were seen evidence recovery managers all say police officers yes and and uh to to confuse

00:21:40 officers yes and and uh to to confuse mata somewhat further many of them in their day jobs were police search advisors so they were generally inspectors and sergeants whose day job was in policing would be to write search

00:21:51 was in policing would be to write search strategies that would be enacted by those licensed search officers and would those such strategies always be related to body recovery or would there be other kinds of crime scene too all sorts of crime searches and defensive searches i

00:22:03 crime searches and defensive searches i see thank you now let's get back to page three of your statement please if we can paragraph 13 which at the foot of the page continues over onto page four and you say at the foot of page 3 in paragraph 13 it is important to note

00:22:15 paragraph 13 it is important to note that forensic science advice in general and specifically in this instance forensic archaeology support at mass fatality scenes are not directly addressed by the published national guidelines on dvi but that some

00:22:27 national guidelines on dvi but that some forensic specialists are noted in the npia 2011 document with regard to the staff roles that comprise the uk dvi carder these roles have traditionally

00:22:38 carder these roles have traditionally focused their work on aspects of remains reassociation deconfliction and identification in the context of mortuary operations so just to be clear it's right to think

00:22:50 so just to be clear it's right to think national guidelines for dvi disaster victim and identification don't

00:22:55 don't directly address forensic archaeology support for disaster scenes that's that's correct currently the standing specialist cardras that support dvi efforts

00:23:06 cardras that support dvi efforts are

00:23:06 are pathology anthropology and odontology um

00:23:11 um there at this stage is no recognition that that archaeology or already seen science forms part of that that specialist support um that's something that we're in the process of uh of

00:23:23 that we're in the process of uh of trying to change right that being said how did you ensure that your teams uh were using methodologies at grenfell tower which were in keeping with it with national or international standards or

00:23:34 national or international standards or best practice so um communication with the mortuary um that that's essential because in essence our role is facilitating the work that's being undertaken at the mortuary um um

00:23:47 um um a very early visit from a number of lead scientists from world trade center to provide some some further external peer review over the processes albeit that

00:23:58 review over the processes albeit that was

00:23:59 was very early on within the response phase

00:24:04 and a a use of

00:24:08 a use of standard

00:24:09 standard accepted forensic archaeology processes so an adaptation of a a context recording form which would be a standard recording form within soil excavations in forensic archaeology

00:24:21 soil excavations in forensic archaeology that we utilized um to supplement the standardized forms that already exist within the dvi packs so do i take it from that

00:24:32 so do i take it from that that

00:24:33 that your use of these meth routes to knowledge or routes to conformity perhaps was because of the absence of any standard

00:24:42 standard operating practice which would cover a mass

00:24:46 mass incident such as grenfell tower yes that's correct and and i would say that even if there were a set of standard processors they would still require adaptation we

00:24:57 they would still require adaptation we would still be in a position where we would be

00:24:59 would be seeking to optimize them given that the the sorts of circumstances you're liable to face for any form of dvi incident are are so different and so challenging right does that ex does that explain the

00:25:11 right does that ex does that explain the absence of a standard uh no i don't think so i think the absence of the standard comes from the fact that we haven't recognized that this is a discipline that should be nested within the dvi um capabilities of

00:25:23 nested within the dvi um capabilities of the uk

00:25:24 the uk and now at the top of the screen you refer to the npia 2011 document is that the national policing improvement agency's guidance on disaster victim identification it is yes

00:25:35 disaster victim identification it is yes i see uh

00:25:36 i see uh is that a publicly available document uh i'm not aware i suspect that it probably is but i'd have to check did that um informed that guidance inform your

00:25:48 informed that guidance inform your methodologies or processes in working at the scene of the grenfell tower fire it did on a high level in as much as it pointed out and it recognizes and enshrines the other specialisms that are working it doesn't provide very much

00:26:00 working it doesn't provide very much beyond that in terms of nuts and bolts to build a methodology on yes

00:26:05 yes now let's look at page two i just want to ask you about the phases of work which you've told us about just earlier this morning and on page two you've set out a table which sets out the three phases and am i

00:26:18 which sets out the three phases and am i right to summarize them as follows that there was an initial phase which is the response a secondary phase which was evac

00:26:25 evac excavation and the tertiary phase search and sieve

00:26:29 and sieve that's correct yes yes and i think we also see over the uh at the bottom final

00:26:34 final uh phase uh which um if you go over the page

00:26:39 page says completion sign-off and quality assurance

00:26:42 assurance is it fair to characterize that element that fourth element as having been incorporated through the throughout the tertiary search and sieve phase yes so as you can imagine the sieving in in

00:26:53 as you can imagine the sieving in in different flats and lobbies was completed at different times um so as and when those were completed the the phase four quality sign-off would be undertaken and if we get a page two back to that

00:27:05 and if we get a page two back to that page please in the column headed tasks we can see under paragraph 1.1 assessment of flats and lobbies suspected of featuring human remains do the phases in this table that we've

00:27:16 do the phases in this table that we've just looked at apply only to those locations suspected of featuring human remains no phases one and two are

00:27:27 are directly associated with those flats and lobbies that are suspected of featuring human remains phases three and four are comprehensive throughout the tower right

00:27:44 but not flat 16 no no

00:27:48 no no and how were those locations uh identified in other words how were the how was how were the locations uh

00:27:57 uh covered by phases one and two identified as in physically how did we identify how did you decide to how do you decide which flats should be subject to phases one and two um

00:28:08 subject to phases one and two um so uh initially based on the intelligence from london fire brigade um and uh 999 phone calls coming in via policing to give approximate or confirmed locations for

00:28:20 approximate or confirmed locations for where people were believed to have died so that was our first level of intelligence that was then backed up by the the room searches undertaken by london fire brigade who would in turn say whether they believed there were was a

00:28:31 whether they believed there were was a body or bodies present within a given flat

00:28:35 flat those areas were then subject to our initial assessment to see if that was the case i follow where are any searches carried out by your teams for the purposes of phases one and two

00:28:46 for the purposes of phases one and two in any other locations um

00:28:50 um ultimately every flat was was was searched to ensure that there was no missed body core that hadn't been seen that wasn't reported by 99 and hadn't been seen by london fire brigade um so

00:29:02 been seen by london fire brigade um so there was a sweep of those those areas prior to uh moving into that comprehensive phase of sieving yes thank you now let's examine these phases in series if we can

00:29:14 examine these phases in series if we can first with initial phase and if we go to page 4 of your statement please paragraph 15 you can see underneath the table there table two

00:29:26 the table there table two where there's a bit more detail uh initial phase response and you detail here the the conversations which took place on the 15th and the 16th of june 2017 to devise

00:29:37 15th and the 16th of june 2017 to devise an initial recording strategy for the recovery of the human remains from the tower and its surroundings now um

00:29:44 now um can we summarize it and there are bullet points which go over the page but can we summarize it like this first that in the early stages it wasn't possible to estimate the number of deceased that's true

00:29:55 deceased that's true and there would be likely victims who had been more comprehensively burned in the debris as well as more visible victims yes and some casualties might have been moved yes

00:30:06 moved yes and victims in the stairways and lobbies as well as the flat yes some of whom had been recovered very early on by by fire brigade gaining access through the um stairs yeah and that it would be best to

00:30:17 stairs yeah and that it would be best to search and examine the debris in situ from the tower because of the fragile nature of the remains to the

00:30:24 to the from exposure to the fire that's true so um one of the key areas of concentration of those early conversations about strategy was around the um the benefits versus the

00:30:36 around the um the benefits versus the potential risks of searching in situ mean that we didn't know whether the tower would collapse during those search efforts

00:30:44 efforts and we didn't know how the tower would respond as it cooled versus a a rapid attempt to move um the debris within those flats and then search at a different location yes

00:30:55 then search at a different location yes i see now if you go to paragraph 16 on the next page page 5 you set out four stages of the initial phase

00:31:04 phase under a to d assessment of flats and lobbies suspected of featuring human remains

00:31:09 remains b development of systematic search strategies c assist in the identification of tissue at the base of the tower

00:31:16 the tower d assist in the recoveries of the identified bodies and then you detail those over the following pages up to page nine uh and let's just take this in stages

00:31:27 uh and let's just take this in stages first the assessment of flats and lobby is suspected of featuring human remains you cover that at paragraph 17 at the foot of your screen could you just tell us what were the tasks at that stage

00:31:38 stage so at that stage we were still very few in number we spoken about archaeologists in in the 30s i believe at this stage there were still three of us associated with the search team so i was outside uh dealing with

00:31:49 dealing with point c in paragraph 16. dr ryder and and mr fletcher were attached to the um the dvi trained teams going from flat to flat and assisting

00:32:01 going from flat to flat and assisting them in confirming whether or not areas believed by fire brigade to be the remains of victims were indeed so did you stay outside throughout your involvement

00:32:12 involvement i stayed outside for no it was for the morning of uh the 16th i was outside and then i believe i was in the tower following that i see

00:32:24 was in the tower following that i see and at the end of this paragraph you

00:32:26 you say

00:32:27 say that implementing controlled excavation would minimize confusion of body elements in the mortuary could you just explain how that could be so so part of that assessment process

00:32:38 that assessment process um

00:32:39 um revealed that in places we could see remains that were clearly more than one person very closely associated to one another

00:32:46 another um

00:32:47 um and fragmentary so so subject to very high burning um causing fragmentation of bone

00:32:54 bone material if those remains are recovered very rapidly and taken back to the mortuary

00:33:00 mortuary um

00:33:01 um that might assist in a in a very rapid identification using odontology of a particular person or the dentition of a person but the the rest of the body material associated

00:33:13 the rest of the body material associated with them would risk becoming mixed up very quickly so

00:33:17 so our view that we took the decision that was made

00:33:21 was made was that we would excavate them carefully in situ to try to optimize maximize the amount of material that could be directly associated with a an identification

00:33:30 i see

00:33:33 does that tell us that there was no identification at the scene that would be done at the mortuary absolutely yes so the idea would be then to excavate carefully in situ in order to maximize the amount of material which that's sent

00:33:45 the amount of material which that's sent to the mortuary for identification so if i use this phrase identification it's not individuation that would be done by odontologists and anthropologists it's confirmation that remains are human and potentially confirmation that we

00:33:56 and potentially confirmation that we have one two three four people within this space and we will then excavate the debris over the top accordingly i follow you you're drawing a distinction between identification and you call it individuation

00:34:08 you call it individuation yes that's correct that's the distinction so it's the mortuary is it that was responsible for individuation absolutely yes i see and they would they would go through the exercise of matching up the information is this right from the police so for example um

00:34:21 right from the police so for example um 63 year old female with a disability in a flat

00:34:25 a flat that's correct and under the auspices of the coroner there so so the the control by the uh that the pmoc that um uh the post

00:34:33 post mortem coordinator and the the authorities of the coroner to oversee that process yes i see um then if we go please to um bottom of the bottom of page five and

00:34:44 bottom of the bottom of page five and over to page six there's a heading development of systematic search strategies and you cover that at paragraphs 18 19 and 20

00:34:54 19 and 20 and if we could just look at the bottom of page 5 paragraph 18 and then over to the top of page 6. you you have the rest of that paragraph paragraph 19 and 20 there

00:35:06 paragraph 19 and 20 there just looking at that casting a right down could you tell us in general terms what was the what did the development of systematic search strategies involve so it just prior to that it's worth

00:35:17 so it just prior to that it's worth pointing out that the the the very small amount of um of excavation that was done in

00:35:23 in a very dynamic way associated with with response

00:35:27 response um

00:35:27 um was done without with some very early and very fundamental thoughts about uh about how we would approach these scenes but not really with a written set of strategies

00:35:38 strategies in place

00:35:40 by going into the flats and beginning to understand the nature of the debris that gave us an early opportunity to then come up with a system it's a it's a very simple system um

00:35:51 it's a it's a very simple system um in the flats that were most comprehensively burnt most of the internal walls weren't almost entirely destroyed the walls were stud walls of wooden

00:36:02 walls were stud walls of wooden plasterboard and generally speaking the line of those walls was only represented by heaps lines of collapsed pasta at plaster

00:36:13 lines of collapsed pasta at plaster associated with the slots that the wooden uprights fitted within so we decided to utilize those natural landmarks within the flats to be our points

00:36:24 points of division within them so each flat was divided into sectors one bedroom flats divided into three two bedroom flats divided into four on the basis of the room

00:36:35 basis of the room layouts that covered most of the space other than the the halls and the bathrooms that tended to cut across those lanes i see and at the top of the screen very end of paragraph 19

00:36:46 end of paragraph 19 you say as a result the search and sieving of all debris was restricted to the flat or space in which the material was located why did you decide to search and sieve all debris in the flat or

00:36:57 and sieve all debris in the flat or space in which the material is located so there's a number of reasons for that the first is related to health and safety that we had no

00:37:09 health and safety that we had no asbestos safety certificates for the material that we're excavating through as a consequence of which anything that was removed from the tower were we to decide to remove material and search it

00:37:20 decide to remove material and search it elsewhere we would have to treat that material as if it were contaminated with asbestos

00:37:26 asbestos that would greatly slow us down in comparison with adopting asbestos safety ourselves and going into those spaces to search so that immediately

00:37:37 that immediately ensure that we're working within within the tower

00:37:41 the tower our next concern is one of um

00:37:44 um evidential continuity that we want to ensure

00:37:47 ensure that

00:37:48 that there is

00:37:49 there is no opportunity for a mixing of material between flats so again any movement of bags is likely to raise complications that could result in an intermixing of material so searching retaining material within

00:38:01 searching retaining material within within

00:38:02 within flats then becomes paramount so even when we've sieved and we're storing those bags of material they're still stored within those flats with the flat name written on them

00:38:13 flat name written on them and then finally because we have flats where we have numerous multiple individuals who have died sometimes in different zones sometimes in one zone together

00:38:24 in one zone together to mark the zone number at the zone letter where those people have come from ensures that we've got the highest possible resolution about where that debris has come from

00:38:35 debris has come from thank you

00:38:36 thank you and you go on a paragraph 19 to

00:38:40 to describe how you decided to divide the one bedroom flats into three sectors and the two bedroom flats into four sectors could you just explain for us why you did that

00:38:50 did that um

00:38:51 um those sectors represent the natural room spaces by and large so in the in the one bedroom flats they represented the bedroom kitchen lounge layout that tends

00:39:02 bedroom kitchen lounge layout that tends to cut across the flats in the two bedroom flats bedroom bedroom kitchen lounge layout on the basis that unless there had been some

00:39:13 some subsequent disturbance of remains following the end of the fire then the remains of an individual will be within one of those natural room spaces and what would account for

00:39:26 spaces and what would account for a subsequent disturbance of remains following the end of the fire well there was always the potential that a

00:39:34 a um you know whilst the tower was um was still smoking um a search undertaken by the fire brigade might have resulted in a movement of material by stepping through between spaces if

00:39:47 by stepping through between spaces if visibility was very poor or

00:39:51 or alternatively some flats required shoring so the the lightweight concrete floors of the flats had begun to bow as the strength of the

00:40:02 of the reinforcement bars within them was giving out so so we were not able to search

00:40:08 search two flats that were directly adjacent to one another in terms of their height um to try to provide a little bit of a

00:40:16 mitigation space some flats required shoring prior to us being able to get into them at all so that in order to get the feet of the acro props down then the debris had to

00:40:27 acro props down then the debris had to be moved in order to make sure that they were stable on the ground right and when the debris was moved either by the lfbs urban search and rescue teams or other teams or by

00:40:38 rescue teams or other teams or by whoever was responsible for putting the acro props in place was any protocol followed about disturbing the remains so that it your job when you came in with the dvi and lsos would be easier i

00:40:50 with the dvi and lsos would be easier i guess protocol was adopted some of the very early propping i believe took place prior to the protocol being in place because it was part of the response nature of the attendance at the scene right and

00:41:02 right and was

00:41:03 was when when you came along your teams came along after the process of either urban search and rescue or the propping by the acura props did you have a

00:41:12 a did you regard the any movement of material as significant or problematic in any way there was some movement material that that that complicated understanding so

00:41:23 that that complicated understanding so when you're working as an archaeologist i've described this very much in terms of sectors and and flat numbers um these are these are people and we're trying to excavate through debris and understand

00:41:34 excavate through debris and understand the positions that they're in and that where they are within these spaces and what activities they might be engaged with

00:41:40 with as they lost consciousness so in understanding that fine detail of someone's position then yes some where there was

00:41:49 there was extensive disturbance and that that you can no longer make sense of that kind of um positioning right i see we may come back to that in a moment uh you say in the same paragraph

00:42:00 uh you say in the same paragraph paragraph 19 that you use the remnants of internal partition walls as divisions between the sectors what was the purpose of doing that the person doing that was to recognize

00:42:11 the person doing that was to recognize that as as individuals lost consciousness and died within those spaces

00:42:17 spaces um the flat at the time would have had walls in situ they would have been present either within the living room or a bedroom space or a bathroom primarily so it made sense that our zones

00:42:28 so it made sense that our zones recognized those boundaries it was a physical boundary that everybody within a team could could see and understand so if you were the person who was shoveling debris for it to be sieved there was a very clear end to your to the sector

00:42:41 very clear end to your to the sector that you were excavating within but also it made sense within understanding the space as a whole i see thank you and if paragraph 20 on the same page you say a further fundamental tenet of the

00:42:53 a further fundamental tenet of the search was established from the outset of deployment but all spaces within the tower subject to destructive burning should be subject to the same degree of search whether that space featured reports of human remains present or

00:43:05 reports of human remains present or persons reported missing um

00:43:08 um what do you mean by destructive burning um so

00:43:13 so uh

00:43:14 uh flats that were that were subject to um to destruction by fire would be searched the debris within it will be searched by sieving wherever possible so

00:43:25 sieving wherever possible so for flats starting from about ninth floor upwards um we've got flats that have extensive amounts of uh of burning and then between the fifth and the ninth floor the burning is is less

00:43:37 floor the burning is is less comprehensive so there's a lot more charring much bigger material that you can't really sieve quite as effectively so there's a change in response

00:43:45 response lower down within within the tower structure that responds to the nature of the fire

00:43:51 the fire however

00:43:52 however although we we prioritized based on when we went into flats in an intelligence-led way if we were told that there was believed to be a person to cease within a flat then we would prioritize that area

00:44:05 would prioritize that area we still adopted the same processes of sieving and searching in areas that had no intelligence associated because we couldn't we didn't want to be in a position where we had some kind of class b approach for spaces that nobody

00:44:16 class b approach for spaces that nobody had said somebody was present within that only to later find that there was remains within right

00:44:24 and the third stage in that initial in phase was as you say in paragraphs 21 and following under the heading assist in the identification of tissue at the base of the tower

00:44:35 base of the tower that precise stage now you go on to describe that in the following paragraphs 21 and 22 is it right that your team work with the victim recovery dogs officers on the

00:44:47 victim recovery dogs officers on the 15th and the 16th of june 2017 to search the base of the tower and the outside areas of the building that's correct the team at the time i think was still only three so um i

00:44:58 think was still only three so um i started off um searching directly at the base of the tower

00:45:03 tower some of the [Music]

00:45:05 [Music] cladding materials insulation as it as it burnt

00:45:09 it burnt had an appearance not dissimilar to tissue some of the material had a degree of interest from some of the victim recovery dogs so there's a need for us to assess very quickly while well bits

00:45:21 to assess very quickly while well bits were still falling from the tower as to whether there was human remains directly associated with the ground at the foot of the tower right now i'm going to show you and others of course following these

00:45:32 you and others of course following these proceedings a photograph of

00:45:35 of that process so i think this deserves probably its own trigger warning um so those who are who were not keen to see

00:45:45 see debris at the foot of the tower in the day or so after the fire now please should look away or or leave the room

00:45:56 can we then go please to page eight i'm sorry yes page eight figure two

00:46:02 two now that is a photograph of early search activity at the base of the tower could you just explain to us what's going on there yes so i didn't know this photograph was taken at the time i wasn't aware that

00:46:13 taken at the time i wasn't aware that there was there were press already around the outside so you can see the corner of the tower standing and the the the grassed landscaped area surrounding the tower

00:46:26 surrounding the tower with some of the fittings still surviving the lamp post in front of us um there's a lot of material lightweight metals and cladding that have fallen from the exterior of the tower primarily

00:46:38 from the exterior of the tower primarily that are littering the ground it's on the ledges of the tower so that area was was searched by victim recovery dogs so dogs that are trained to scent for human

00:46:50 dogs that are trained to scent for human remains

00:46:51 remains and those dogs came up with some points of interest we had intelligence to suggest that um that there had been at least one person who had jumped from the tower

00:47:04 who had jumped from the tower so it was imperative that we searched the grounds around it as soon as possible to see if there were was material associated with those people so that was i regarded it it was

00:47:17 people so that was i regarded it it was a something of a moot point i thought that was probably the most dangerous thing to do so i um i sent dr ryder and mr fletcher um up

00:47:28 i sent dr ryder and mr fletcher um up onto the parapet of the lower level flats looking at other parts of of debris

00:47:33 debris and i went with the searchers to look for this material and were any fragments of human tissue identified through this process

00:47:41 process there were some that i couldn't discount at the time i don't believe any of them came back as human material ultimately right thank you then let's go on to paragraphs 23 to 26 under the

00:47:54 on to paragraphs 23 to 26 under the heading assist in the recoveries of the identified bodies and you cover that in your statement at paragraph 23 through to 26 on pages 8 and 9.

00:48:05 is it right that the interior of the tower became accessible to your team of archaeologists and the dvi trained officers on and from the 16th of june the friday that's correct

00:48:16 16th of june the friday that's correct and what were the first tasks that you carried out on gaining access to the inside of the tower so the first tasks that we carried out were to um to go to spaces where london firebreak

00:48:29 to go to spaces where london firebreak brigade crews or other forms of intelligence suggested that there was a strong likelihood of bodies being present and to confirm whether that was the case or not so when i use again using the term identified i don't mean in terms of

00:48:41 term identified i don't mean in terms of individual identification simply that there's something that looks like a body and yes we can see that there are human remains associated with it i see and in paragraph 25 if we turn the page please to page 9

00:48:53 to page 9 you you note that

00:48:57 uh the

00:48:59 the recoveries from residence flats were subject to the approval of structural engineers who advised the metropolitan police on the structural integrity and health

00:49:07 health and safety concerns for each area is that that's right is it it is and it it makes the point that these this very early work was dynamic because it was still part of a of an emergency response

00:49:18 still part of a of an emergency response so if we turned over debris to to try to um uh look further to see try to confirm whether remains were human it was still hot enough that it would reignite at

00:49:29 hot enough that it would reignite at this time so it's very much a response led effort right and you you say in the in the last sentence in paragraph 25 there on the screen recoveries inside the tower from

00:49:41 recoveries inside the tower from residence flats began on the 17th of june 2017

00:49:44 june 2017 which was the saturday subject to the approval of structural engineers who advised the mps on the structural integrity and health and safety concerns for each area and advised precautions and structural supports required

00:49:57 and structural supports required now um did the advice about structural integrity only start on the 17th of june or had that been a question [Music]

00:50:06 [Music] at the point and from the point at which you became involved it was a question from very early on it was recognized that the structural integrity was going to be

00:50:13 to be um

00:50:14 um a key issue to how we approached um the the spaces the flats and the lobbies i can't remember when the first opinion was given about the the structural integrity right at what point did these

00:50:26 integrity right at what point did these structural supports go go in to the various

00:50:29 various rooms um i would have to go back to my records when they began certainly the work that we were undertaking on the 17th we didn't have any structural supports at that time that the processes

00:50:40 supports at that time that the processes that we undertook were ones of mitigation so we would

00:50:44 we would only search

00:50:47 every other floor so if we had flats that needed searching on the 18th 19th 20th floors we would search on the 18th of the 20th and not put a team in

00:50:58 18th of the 20th and not put a team in on the 19th on the case that if the floor collapsed we wouldn't have both one team injured by falling and one team injured by a crush collapse mitigate that in addition to that

00:51:10 in addition to that how do the concerns about the structural integrity of the building affect the recovery work of your teams and the dvi teams during that early period we were limited in staffing so although the teams at that time numbered five or six

00:51:22 teams at that time numbered five or six so an archaeologist and um

00:51:26 and um the dpi or this not lso at this stage these are just dvi teams at this stage we were only allowing three of those six people entry

00:51:37 allowing three of those six people entry into a flat at any given time again trying to limit the loading on flaws that a we didn't understand the structural integrity of and b we were very aware that that

00:51:49 and b we were very aware that that moving through a rapid heat ramp has an effect on diminishing structural integrity

00:51:54 integrity moving through a cooling ramp does the same thing so so you're risking it's the second riskiest time when it comes to collapse of those structures so we're very aware of the need to limit the people going in so that slowed us

00:52:06 the people going in so that slowed us down because we were cycling through people working within spaces bringing in an archaeologist bringing a photographer everybody else being stood within the the more robust concrete

00:52:19 the more robust concrete upright of the lobby and stair spaces

00:52:27 so the risks were structural integrity and reignition those were the first initial risks so so one of the uh tools that was

00:52:38 utilized by the usa the urban search and rescue teams is called a wasp which is a a building collapse detector in essence it's a

00:52:48 it's a it's an extremely sensitive

00:52:53 machine that monitors the integrity of a floor and it then issues an audible alarm if it senses any change in that flooring to allow you time hopefully to evacuate right

00:53:06 time hopefully to evacuate right now then let's let's then turn to the second phase excavation you cover this on pages 9 through to 12 starting at paragraph 27 under the

00:53:17 starting at paragraph 27 under the heading secondary response excavation and if you go to page 9 paragraph 27 in detail you see that you say that the areas of priority interest identified in

00:53:29 areas of priority interest identified in the primary response phase were then subjected to excavation by forensic archaeologists and i've summarized very boldly but is that right that's correct yes and in that paragraph the last line

00:53:40 yes and in that paragraph the last line says this let's look at it this entailed the search and recovery for more the more fragmentary remains and the fragment clusters associated with the earlier initial response recoveries what

00:53:52 earlier initial response recoveries what what are or were fragment clusters so um if you um and i'll apologize in vats because this will be fairly detailed about the the nature of body fragmentation if you're

00:54:03 nature of body fragmentation if you're content for me to continue yes please um

00:54:07 um if you

00:54:09 if you imagine a

00:54:11 imagine a a body high up within the tower subject to

00:54:15 to intense and extensive heating that will result in the destruction of most associated soft tissue not necessarily all low down in in association with the

00:54:27 low down in in association with the flooring

00:54:28 flooring but elements of the body that are higher up within that room so if somebody falls on their back the the tops of a rib cage a hand if it's leaning up against an

00:54:39 a hand if it's leaning up against an item of furniture they're going to be there's a higher surface area that's directly associated with the heat and they're in a in a hotter part of the compartment as you'd say in fire

00:54:51 compartment as you'd say in fire investigation so

00:54:53 so um ultimately that will result in a um a core of a body so primarily um head thorax pelvis and thighs that can be

00:55:04 thorax pelvis and thighs that can be identified and that's that primary phase of our identification that yes that is the remains of a person that core can be recovered as a whole but in lifting it and and engaging in

00:55:16 but in lifting it and and engaging in those dvi processes elements smaller elements fingers wrists um uh

00:55:23 um uh bits of bone that that will chip off from longer bones will will fall directly down within the debris so they'll form clusters of fragments so we know where the body's been recovered from both in terms of a

00:55:34 been recovered from both in terms of a zone but also those initial photographs we recognize that that's going to be an area where there will be a need for very very close detailed fine work that will be directly associated and we know that those remains

00:55:46 those remains particularly if it's a flat that only has one person that has died within it will be associated with them yes i see

00:55:53 yes i see now i'm going to show you a photograph of the interior of grenfell tower after the fire on page 10 of your report but before we turn to it i need yet another trigger warning

00:56:04 warning uh just to make sure that people are aware of what we're about to see and if they wish to upset themselves from here or to look away from the live stream then they should do that can we then uh

00:56:16 can we then uh look please at page 10.

00:56:22 here is a photograph figure 3 an example of a flat

00:56:25 of a flat requiring shoring prior to the tertiary phase of examination now you've described earlier this morning and in your report at paragraphs

00:56:36 morning and in your report at paragraphs paragraph 28 on pages 9 and 10 the installation of the acro props as one type of risk mitigation during this phase of the work can we see those in this photograph yes

00:56:47 can we see those in this photograph yes so this is this network of steel props that is visible from the floor to the ceiling in the center of the photograph yes and

00:56:55 yes and would i be right in thinking as you've told us that the risks that the acro props helped to mitigate was was the risk of collapse that's correct uh now

00:57:05 uh now when they were erected can we take it from the photograph that the debris on the floor on which they stood was swept clear yes so the debris as you see it there cleared down to the concrete floor in

00:57:17 cleared down to the concrete floor in the middle is not as it would have been uh in that primary phase when we've looked into this flat there would have been greater levels of debris accumulation along the interior wall lines that have

00:57:29 along the interior wall lines that have gone so this looks like a huge space it would have been a flat with stud walls within it that we've now lost

00:57:37 in order for that system of props to be put up the debris has had to be moved to the sides in order to access the floor area

00:57:48 floor area so in moving that that would have been moved within the sections so this is a two bedroom flat um there would have been four separate sectors of material recovered from within it they'd be the

00:57:59 recovered from within it they'd be the material be retained within the sector so i think it's set to b and c looking at this

00:58:05 at this uh well that's it sector b and c was

00:58:09 was material attributable to set to be retained in sector b and vice versa yes it was so as the plaster wall line was followed that demarcates those two sectors so the clearance would have been undertaken to

00:58:20 clearance would have been undertaken to that line i see and now just breaking that up a little bit first who was responsible for clearing the floor initially uh dvi search teams were responsible dvi teams sorry not lso

00:58:31 were responsible dvi teams sorry not lso teams were responsible for clearing those floor areas right right uh so is it the case that when you came on the scene and your teams came on the scene this this had already been done it was partially completed and then as

00:58:44 it was partially completed and then as it it continued to be done and as our staffing as archaeologists grew we could then attach an archaeologist to uh to those efforts so we could have somebody with them to ensure the chance of

00:58:56 with them to ensure the chance of disturbing remains was uh was minimized right and was the process of sweeping or clearing the floor conducted by the uh

00:59:05 uh dvi dvi teams in accordance with an established protocol in as much as the protocol was to to to not

00:59:13 not to disturb things as little as possible and keep things within their sector but that's as far as it went

00:59:21 and did the movement and dispersal of the debris as we can see from the photograph jeopardize the integrity of your own work and your own conclusions it poses a challenge so so in this

00:59:33 it poses a challenge so so in this particular instance were there to have been a a highly fragmented body directly where that shoring needed to be put our ability to reconstruct where that

00:59:44 our ability to reconstruct where that body is other than the states within that sector would be hampered we would still find the elements but they'll be dispersed within that sector right and how did you seek to minimize the or meet the challenge minimum

00:59:57 the or meet the challenge minimum by attaching the archaeologist so so once we realized that work was underway to to increase our numbers and have somebody go with them [Music]

01:00:04 [Music] now if we go above the photograph please but sticking on page

01:00:09 on page 10 within paragraph 28 where you've described the installation of the supporting acro props and the clearing of the floor uh you

01:00:20 uh you say in the last three lines just above the photograph wherever possible this move debris was kept within the sector in which it was found just pausing there were there instances where it wasn't possible so that the move debris was not

01:00:33 possible so that the move debris was not kept within the sector in which it was found

01:00:35 found i couldn't speak to it in detail because some of the movement had occurred prior to an archaeologist being attached to it hence the the doubt that i expressed within that sentence and you go on to say when it was moved

01:00:46 and you go on to say when it was moved beyond the sector of origin the debris was not moved out of the flat or lobby from which it originated in in what circumstances would debris have been moved to a sector other than

01:00:57 have been moved to a sector other than the one from which it was found so debris only moved outside of a flat um if so if you can imagine a a highly a flat with a much

01:01:08 a flat with a much thicker level of debris than the one that we see in this picture where you've got debris up to sort of mid-calf level right from walking in the front door it poses a bit of a challenge like um one of those

01:01:21 challenge like um one of those children's puzzles with one square space so how do you begin to move things to clear floor to work within so in those circumstances a degree of clearance within bags recorded bags might have to

01:01:32 within bags recorded bags might have to then move out into the lobby space directly outside of the front door of that flat the lobby having previously been cleared so we know that we're not going to mix up material before an area can be cleared such that

01:01:43 before an area can be cleared such that the material can be moved back in so it was an initial pre-clearance clearance it was about entry into the flat to give you enough working space to then conduct your work other than that it was only at the point

01:01:54 other than that it was only at the point where material was moved via the um the external hoist that material was taken out and then it was bagged and was that process in accordance with best practice or some kind of established protest yes

01:02:05 or some kind of established protest yes so so the um the the recording on the bags the nature of the bagging the order in which materials moved from flats the way it was moved between sectors in

01:02:16 way it was moved between sectors in different areas and how it was stored ultimately within the the cargo containers it was stored within all of that was documented as part of recording the continuity of

01:02:28 as part of recording the continuity of the evidence where debris was moved from its original location

01:02:32 location uh was it the case that the original locations were documented digitally by way of photographs and and logged in reports yes so every dvi team has a

01:02:44 reports yes so every dvi team has a within their equipment

01:02:46 equipment a a camera so the teams while they may feature crime scene investigators among their number are omni competent across their skills so any member of the team should be able to pick up that camera

01:02:57 should be able to pick up that camera and use it so every flat had associated photography with it as early as possible

01:03:04 and and where the majority of remains removed from their original location before being identified throughout the archaeological processes

01:03:12 uh sorry i don't think i followed do by identification do you mean um that we knew there was no human rights yes yes yes

01:03:21 yes yes now given the process of removing debris from their original location or locations in the flats to what extent do the archaeological conclusions that your teams were able to reach

01:03:32 teams were able to reach uh give an exact or accurate account of the deceased's location or position at the time of death rather than simply the general location the the area flat lobby

01:03:45 the the area flat lobby so in the

01:03:47 so in the more extensive report that was uh prepared following our work a series of of graphics with posed figures was presented for each um

01:04:01 figures was presented for each um recovery of an individual and they were color coded to give a level of confidence so that where we we had

01:04:09 we had 90 percent of an individual laid out so we've removed all of the debris from over the top of them we know exactly the position that they're in we have a very high level of confidence whereabouts in the flat they are what

01:04:20 whereabouts in the flat they are what position they're out there in who they're associated with what material is directly associated with them right way through to where we have a much more fragmentary recovery a

01:04:31 a much more fragmentary recovery a recovery that becomes disturbed as a consequence of shoring where we don't have that level of confidence were there any were there any other limitations or challenges to your work

01:04:42 limitations or challenges to your work uh which arose from the removal of debris or the movement of the debris of which this is an example the environmental challenges were were many so very early on in the response we had

01:04:55 very early on in the response we had as you can imagine vast amounts of firefighting water pumped into the tower so we were walking against a waterfall that was coming down the central staircase

01:05:06 central staircase that would have the potential to move fragmentary lightweight powdery remains within it

01:05:11 within it um

01:05:13 um prior to the screens being put up around the windows and the external scaffolding we put up

01:05:19 we put up um

01:05:20 um the wind

01:05:21 the wind ultimately we we we had sitex so metal grid work uh placed on doors but but prior to that the wind would pass directly through the tower so again not vast amounts not clouds of debris

01:05:32 not vast amounts not clouds of debris being moved from flat to flat but certainly a very challenging environment to work within and uh on page 10 lower down in paragraph 29 below the

01:05:43 lower down in paragraph 29 below the image we can go to that please you

01:05:47 you say excavation is a collection of techniques used by archaeologists to remove any material to better understand relationships between buried objects or remains those relationships can be

01:05:58 remains those relationships can be spatial in the context of the grenfell tower search locating the remains of individuals later to be identified by the mortuary teams in specific parts of specific rooms that might correlate or

01:06:09 specific rooms that might correlate or add detail to what might already be suspected of that person's movements from witness or survivor accounts the physical relationships between excavated objects or remains can also be chronological

01:06:20 chronological when a sequence of collapsed material provides an order in time to deposition again in the context of a grenfell tower search this might take the form of noting whether the remains

01:06:31 the form of noting whether the remains of a body suggest that a person was sitting or lying on a bed in their final position in life or if furnishings in a flat had subsequently fallen over their bodies

01:06:41 bodies now now i've read that all to you because i have a number of particular questions the first um what it was or is a spatial relationship in this context

01:06:52 relationship in this context it's it's physical proximity so um where um we either we say this person is definitively within the living room space or these persons are and they're very close together then then we're

01:07:04 very close together then then we're talking about physical location and the chronological relationship is um the the best example would be to take a deck of cards and drop them off this desk you know some of those cards will

01:07:15 desk you know some of those cards will be

01:07:16 be isolated and not associated but the the core of the pack of cards will fall in a in a bunch and by picking them off one at a time you can see which one fell first and which one fell last so exactly that that if a if an individual died

01:07:30 that that if a if an individual died on a bed then archaeologically that would look very different to somebody dying under a bed or somebody having another item of furniture falling on top of them later on in the fire

01:07:44 and which procedures or methods enabled you to make findings about the victims locations within the tower so primarily the the met the trowelling so that the the the prime method of

01:07:55 so that the the the prime method of archaeological excavation so the the archaeologist within the team um utilizing troweling techniques to remove the unrelated the sort of the grey powdery debris of concrete and plaster you can see in that figure three on the

01:08:07 you can see in that figure three on the top of the page leaving behind as much as is entirely possible the both the body core and the fragmentary remains directly associated um with those remains right now you use

01:08:18 um with those remains right now you use the word i think traveling is that right yes could you just explain to us yes so the the the the primary tool of an archaeologist in the uk would be a three-inch pointing

01:08:29 the uk would be a three-inch pointing trowel so with straight sides of a small uh plasters trowel um that provides you with a

01:08:36 with a an ability to to excavate without digging destructively into something so so clearing from the side to ensure that you can move uh debris without moving the thing that

01:08:47 uh debris without moving the thing that you're trying to preserve the relationships of let's see and where remains believed to be human tissue were recovered did you retain the debris directly associated with those remains

01:09:00 directly associated with those remains yes so all debris was was retained because we recognized that even after this period of excavation a civ process would be required so that debris was still available it was cleared from

01:09:12 was still available it was cleared from the direct association with the body in question to allow a photographic record to be taken of the position of that body in relationship to where it is in in the room and the

01:09:23 where it is in in the room and the the

01:09:24 the pose that it's adopted uh but it was retained in situ otherwise yes that's right right so if i can envisage a body part or remain is

01:09:35 envisage a body part or remain is identified through the troweling process lifted carefully out removed with the debris associated with it around it but that's left in situ for later sitting

01:09:46 that's left in situ for later sitting that's correct right and by by that process of excavation if we and it's its integration with dvi processors if we find a body core and we uncover it that has one url one unique

01:09:58 uncover it that has one url one unique reference number associated with it it undergoes all the dvi recording processes

01:10:02 processes if we have a um a second element of human remains that isn't you know say it's the end of a of a leg and and there is a leg missing on this body

01:10:15 there is a leg missing on this body it would receive its own number but archaeologically we'd be very interested in ensuring that the relationship between those two is recorded because that primary act of association in the mortuary is to see if those two things

01:10:26 mortuary is to see if those two things relate yes i see

01:10:33 uh and i think it's right you go on to say as you do paragraph 33 that you sought to understand the position that the victims of fire were in at death yes that's correct and how were

01:10:45 at death yes that's correct and how were those positions recorded um they were recorded photographically and they're recorded in sketch plans on the uh both within the dvi recording packs but also on the

01:10:56 recording packs but also on the supplementary archaeological record that we

01:10:58 we put together and then there's a tertiary phase search and sieve if we go please to page 12 of your statement we pick that up at paragraph 37 under the heading tertiary response

01:11:10 the heading tertiary response excavation uh now um there's a lot here paragraphs 37 and 38 but i think it's right isn't it that um you say that the areas of the tower that were subject to the tertiary phase were a proportion of

01:11:22 the tertiary phase were a proportion of the flats between the fourth and the ninth floors and all the flats and lobbies from floor 10 and above plus stairway

01:11:29 stairway and the basement subfloors where material was carried down by firefighting water summarize that correct yes yes what was the proportion of the flats between floors four and nine that were

01:11:40 between floors four and nine that were subject to the tertiary phase it varied and if you think about the the origin of a fire within a room space very low down it will have a single point of origin that's quite small so so

01:11:51 point of origin that's quite small so so down at the the fourth and fifth floors it's very low and then as it as it v's outwards as the fire spreads laterally as well as upwards then more and more becomes involved within it so it's a gradual

01:12:03 involved within it so it's a gradual inclusion of more and more flats and within those flats more and more proportions of the space that either are charred so so partially combusted or then totally combusted

01:12:16 yes i see and can you explain briefly exactly what the tertiary phase of excavation involved in those areas of the tower you've just mentioned so having

01:12:28 you've just mentioned so having engaged in that initial recovery in the primary phase having excavated and recovered as much fragment clusters as we can in the secondary phase the tertiary phase is designed to ensure that we have a comprehensive

01:12:39 that we have a comprehensive search and recovery of any other remaining material so this is a a

01:12:45 a a sequential and organized sieving operation

01:12:49 operation in which a the team of dvi officers or lso officers with an attached archaeologist will enter a flat and

01:12:57 and sector by sector will put all of the debris through sieves either small handheld round sieves looking very similar to garden sieves or later on through some

01:13:10 sieves or later on through some purpose-built standing sieve arrays that were put up within some of those structures yes i see and could you tell us who who was in who was in each team how big

01:13:21 who was in who was in each team how big were they and who was in five or six to a team

01:13:24 a team um so there's a um there was recognized that there was a there were some efficiencies to be had around numbers of five or six where you could

01:13:33 could swap out searches so the course of this work is for eight hours you've got your head down with a with a head torch on with buckets of material being tipped

01:13:44 with buckets of material being tipped into

01:13:45 into a top sieve that you'll then pick through by hand and look for elements that might be bone fragments or might be plaster fragments that can be very difficult to tell the difference of under some circumstances

01:13:56 under some circumstances so that's quite intense searching work so having some team members who are also

01:14:04 shoveling up the debris to be put into the sieve or bagging up the debris or writing up the paperwork and cycling through those roles is essential to keep people

01:14:12 people focused so five to six and how many of those were your archaeologists one one and what was the role of that were they sieving as well or were they were they supervising the sipping process by the

01:14:23 supervising the sipping process by the dvi team primarily they're supervising so they're looking at the material that's going through the sieve that's being looked at by the dvi teams the briefing that we gave to those dvi and nso teams was one of um

01:14:35 nso teams was one of um elimination so if you if you're content and you're confident that something isn't bone then then uh pass it through if you've got any doubts then run it past that archaeologist yes yes thank you um mr chairman we've come

01:14:47 yes thank you um mr chairman we've come to a a natural break although not not the end of the topic but it's a natural break within it for our morning break so that would suit you to stop it it would yes yes

01:14:58 it would yes yes well dr harrison we have a break during the morning as a matter of course this sounds like a good time to take it so we'll stop there for the time being we'll resume please at half boss 11 and i have to ask you while you're out

01:15:09 and i have to ask you while you're out of the room please don't discuss your evidence with anyone else all right thank you thank you very much would you give the usher please give

01:15:25 thank you very much i've asked 11. please

01:31:05 would you ask dr harrison to come back in please

01:31:14 [Music]

01:31:20 all right doc harrison are you ready to carry on i am thank you very much yes mr miller yes thank you very much mr chairman um can we please have dr harrison's report back up on the screen and go please to page 12.

01:31:34 and go please to page 12. paragraphs 37 and 38 where you have paragraph 38 your description of the division of the areas into sectors and then the sieving process uh and you set

01:31:45 then the sieving process uh and you set out underneath that uh a table which runs over onto page 13. are you able to summarize for us how the process of sitting worked yes so the process is designed to ensure

01:31:56 yes so the process is designed to ensure that every piece of debris is is looked at down to a a minimum size of of six millimeters and as that as the smaller debris passes through the sieve it's captured within a

01:32:09 through the sieve it's captured within a bucket and then it's bagged so so as the search is ongoing we're not then putting the loose material back into the flat it's all being uh bagged and recorded in terms of um

01:32:20 uh bagged and recorded in terms of um flat number sector um and the date of searching yes and if we look at the bottom of page 12 and over onto page 13 you can see that there is a table table 3

01:32:31 is a table table 3 which begins there and and continues over the page um just if we turn the page please to page 14 you can see the rest of it you've explained here the pathways for the various types of material which

01:32:42 the various types of material which would be found during the act of sieving and without going through every single one

01:32:47 one could you explain what would happen to human remains if they were found during this process so human remains found during this process would um would move on to the the previous dvi standards so

01:32:58 on to the the previous dvi standards so those remains will be photographed they'd be given a universal um a unique reference number uh they would be um packaged accordingly um and then

01:33:09 packaged accordingly um and then transported to the multi um so in effect that's the it's the strongest line of of material handling streams that come from this because it's a process that's already enshrined within the process

01:33:21 already enshrined within the process right now you can see from this table that human remains is just above the bottom of your screen there among other things such as reinforced safety glass door furniture medical

01:33:33 safety glass door furniture medical implants

01:33:34 implants and other things like that what's what's uh uh what other significant finds would would justify being recovered and recorded

01:33:43 recorded yes

01:33:44 yes so um the reinforced safety glass that the wire reinforced glass that was present in in some of the kitchen doors um was important because of the fire protection qualities that come with it

01:33:55 protection qualities that come with it so that was retained door furniture where we still had hinges or door closers present on doors was was retained

01:34:06 was was retained to try to understand fire spread within individual flats medical implants will be treated as per human remains in that they will frequently have numbers associated with them that can assist in identification

01:34:18 them that can assist in identification individual identification of a person so that again follows dvi standards we recognized early on that some animal remains are going to have particular importance to people to survivors from

01:34:30 importance to people to survivors from the tower so ensuring that animal remains are treated are identified as early as possible and differentiated from human remains but still treated with dignity and separated from animal food waste which clearly

01:34:41 from animal food waste which clearly also is present in in many of the flats and then intimate jewelry either a jewelry directly associated with bodies which would have been treated as per dvi standards but then

01:34:53 per dvi standards but then other valuables um that you would come across excavating through anybody's bedroom then then ensuring they entered into the um the exhibit chains and were were recorded and retained

01:35:05 were recorded and retained yes i see

01:35:07 yes i see so is it right that some of the things that were retained as a result of the sitting process were not in fact for identification or individuation but for assisting in the forensic

01:35:18 forensic examination of the fire yes so there's a there are there are at least three motivations to the retention um there's there's identical identification remains understanding of fire spread and fire

01:35:30 understanding of fire spread and fire protection within flats um and then the um the retention of valuable or or material sentimental value that may have survived the fire that we wanted to repatriate to families

01:35:42 that we wanted to repatriate to families now if we um go please to the foot of page 14 the next page you'll see paragraph 40 under the heading burnt bone awareness training for dvi and lsa teams

01:35:56 training for dvi and lsa teams and is it right that all dbi and lso officers were given a burnt bone awareness training course by the coordinating archaeologists yes and that was part of their site induction so as they came on

01:36:08 their site induction so as they came on site they would have an initial site induction

01:36:10 induction we retained some of the burnt food waste bone

01:36:17 in order to demonstrate to them how bone disc colors and changes shape and form and fragments within a fire scene just in case they they had any preconceptions about what a bone was

01:36:28 preconceptions about what a bone was going to look like under these circumstances so that was done when they very first started and then anybody who was abstracted to other duties and then came back to the scene if they were gone for more than a week then that that process would be repeated and why would

01:36:40 process would be repeated and why would the dvi team members or the lso team members as the case may be not already know what um they needed to know by way of burnt bone awareness

01:36:49 awareness even if you take the role of a of a dvi officer so that that's a that's a trained role within policing it's not a full-time job that they are police officers and police civilians who have

01:37:00 officers and police civilians who have other roles to do and then as and when there is a mass fatality incident they're called into action so they have a good degree of training but they're not necessarily all entirely

01:37:13 but they're not necessarily all entirely current in addition to that many of the incidents that bb officers are dealing with

01:37:18 with will be

01:37:19 will be collapsers or or car pileups where there's no bone modification where actual you know the elements of people that are being recovered still have soft tissue associated with them so this is quite

01:37:30 associated with them so this is quite different in terms of an environment and was part of that bone training twofold perhaps first to be able to distinguish osseous material from non-osseous

01:37:41 non-osseous yes and secondly to be able to differentiate between human bone fragments live animal bone fragments and food waste bone fragments certainly to make

01:37:52 waste bone fragments certainly to make them aware of that distinction that that would be something that i would want them to if they found a fragment that they were confident was bone that's a good time for them to show it to the archaeologist to make that confirmatory decision so so the dv officer isn't

01:38:03 decision so so the dv officer isn't making that decision the other thing that it enabled us to do is to to bring together a collection of false friends so

01:38:10 so burnt plastics and burnt plasters that look particularly bone-like within those environments so they recognized early on that some of this material looked very porous it looked like bone material

01:38:22 porous it looked like bone material and apart from burnt bone analysis awareness were the dvi and lsa teams given any other specific training before they started work within the tower um not by us not specifically that that was the the

01:38:33 specifically that that was the the extent of the training that we provided as part of our role right did they get any training from anybody else um they received safety briefings about the working within the tower but but beyond that i don't know

01:38:44 tower but but beyond that i don't know what else they were delivered in terms of their core training now um if we go on two pages please to page 16 and look at paragraph 43 you explain here initial assessment of

01:38:55 you explain here initial assessment of suspected bone fragments and you say as a part of their supervision of the dvi and lso teams the attached archaeologists would assess all suspect fragments found by searchers as an

01:39:06 fragments found by searchers as an initial point of triage this initial assessment was conducted utilizing the flowchart outlined in figure four now um what do you mean there by suspect fragments so um

01:39:18 fragments so um i mean a

01:39:20 i mean a an item of debris that the dvi or lso team member cannot differentiate so he's looking at it thinking i don't know whether this is bone or not but it looks it looks porous it's clearly burnt

01:39:31 it looks porous it's clearly burnt it looks a bit bony that's something that they should be showing to the archaeologist i see so it would be the person doing the sieving who would come across such material not be sure what it was and then ask yes and and we wanted as much

01:39:43 then ask yes and and we wanted as much as possible to ensure that they didn't that didn't feel the pressure to regard themselves as experts we wanted them to show us as much of that material as possible doesn't matter how many times we say no no that's plaster quite happy with that right and you refer there to

01:39:54 with that right and you refer there to figure four figure four we find on the previous page please page 15 if we go to that please and you could see that there's a flow chart could you just take us through the process of what would happen if a suspect fragment was identified so it

01:40:07 suspect fragment was identified so it carries on from my example that your tv officer finds a fragment that the size and the shape and the porosity is right for something that looks like bone they would initially show that to the team archaeologist so the archaeologist is

01:40:18 archaeologist so the archaeologist is there supervising the work of those sivirs

01:40:21 sivirs the archaeologist has more experience of bone in general and of burnt bone in particular and they can make that initial assessment then is it is it non-bone or or is it confirmed as being bone if it isn't bone if it's just a

01:40:32 bone if it isn't bone if it's just a piece of plaster that happens to look particularly porous then it will be disposed off with the back debris so it follows the the chain of the rest of the debris

01:40:41 debris if it is bone then there's a range of different things that that it can fit within there is it confirmed as being a human bone um then it's recorded as per dvi protocols if it's unknown or

01:40:53 protocols if it's unknown or unidentifiable it follows that same route because it relies upon the mortuary anthropologists to make that final assessment if it's confirmed as being non-human bone then it's it's exhibited

01:41:05 bone then it's it's exhibited because it doesn't follow the dvi protocols it still goes to the mortuary for a final confirmation so in some instances we had flats where people died in direct association with

01:41:17 people died in direct association with with animals and they were co-mingled with animal remains so that forms a particular challenge to to that kind of differentiation and so if

01:41:27 and so if a fragment is identified on site as a human bone and recorded as such via the dvi protocols for recording such matters then it would go to the mortuary that's correct and it would go in a bag would

01:41:38 correct and it would go in a bag would it it would it'd be bagged it would have a urn number the same as a a body core or a larger body element and it would follow exactly the same process as it as it goes to the mortuary

01:41:49 it goes to the mortuary right would it be put in a bag with all the other associated uh

01:41:54 uh material related to that urn uh

01:41:58 uh no so in this process this is sibbing so the body cores have gone and already at the mortuary um so if a fragment is found in isolation it would have its own url number now the the the

01:42:11 url number now the the the anthropologist and the odontologist and pathologist will know that this is flat such and such and these are all the other urns associated with that flat and that's their starting point then for seeing how to repatriate whether it's

01:42:23 seeing how to repatriate whether it's possible to repatriate that bone fragment

01:42:26 fragment right i see so within the mortuary to the best of your knowledge when the with the bag with its own urn with the suspect fragment no longer suspect the bone fragments which are identified as

01:42:37 bone fragments which are identified as human bone but not individuated come in then it's for the anthropologist the odontologist possibly the pathologist then to individuate yes by association the core principle that we're working to within

01:42:49 principle that we're working to within those fire scenes as archaeologists is to ensure that we're not when material becomes mixed it can't be unmixed so if we have

01:42:57 we have a bone fragment that comes through in isolation on its own we want to record that with its own number as much as we possibly can yes i see and then let's turn to completion sign-off and quality assurance which was i think

01:43:08 and quality assurance which was i think your last phase at page 17 if we go to that you address this topic and if we look at table five on that page which is entitled sequence

01:43:20 on that page which is entitled sequence of clearance prior to completion inspection let's just look at that it starts with all suspected human remains and other significant items suitably packaged and

01:43:32 significant items suitably packaged and stored for onward transport as per the strategy

01:43:38 is that that's the transport to the mortuary is it transports the mortuary or the different evidential streams for glass metals the the other non-human remains related materials so anything significant has

01:43:49 materials so anything significant has been dealt with um and and there's nothing outstanding within that flat space right now you then deal with metal items uh in the next bullet point and you explain what happens to them

01:44:00 you explain what happens to them in the next bullet point after that you explain what happens to the glass and metal sharps and then you in the next bullet point after that deal with window sills and you say all window sills swept and

01:44:11 you say all window sills swept and cleared of ash and char debris all swept debris then searched and sieved as per material in in the flat just explain does it mean that you sweep the sills

01:44:22 the sills into a hopper and then do the search and sieve as if that material were within the flat yes so those uh window sills are fairly deep and there are there are gullies within them and obviously cracks have opened up

01:44:33 them and obviously cracks have opened up with the fire so

01:44:36 so ashy debris is retained within them we regarded that as being part of the flat space so as part of ensuring that there wasn't there was there was no ashy debris left that hadn't been

01:44:47 ashy debris left that hadn't been directly examined by that team we would use a a clean new paintbrush to to remove all of the ash and debris from the window sills

01:44:59 ash and debris from the window sills probably

01:45:01 probably recovering it into a a coal shovel in the first instance into a bucket and it would go through that sieving process um do you recall an instance where human remains were found on windowsills

01:45:13 remains were found on windowsills no not off my head right and then you go on all gullies stress cracks and wall slots being swept then cleaned window sills spray painted to indicate full clearance and then

01:45:24 to indicate full clearance and then finally all searched and sieved ash and charred debris to be retained in double bags as per asbestos hazard's requirements and was there any area of the building which had been affected by the fire which which was not sieved and searched

01:45:38 which which was not sieved and searched no i'm not aware of any area that wasn't sieved and searched to the extent that we pumped out the water from the two sub-basements and and any material within that was was

01:45:49 any material within that was was gathered and sieved right we'll come back to firefighting water very shortly but just looking at this table is it right to conclude that every area of the burnt flats

01:46:01 every area of the burnt flats including cracks or slots were searched and sieved as part of this operation that's correct and and the reference to the spray paints was because we recognized that if we if we completed the search and then closed off a flat

01:46:13 the search and then closed off a flat saying this is completed and then somebody went back in two weeks later the material is still falling from the solid concrete walls um dust is still blowing in through the

01:46:24 dust is still blowing in through the through the windows from the exterior so the only way in which we could definitively say this is done and finished was to use the spray paint to say that all of these gullies have been cleared right

01:46:35 cleared right let's move on to page 19 paragraph 47 where you refer to the quality assurance process

01:46:46 and you say in the in the paragraph there under the heading full completion of the search of each burnt space required engagement with the system of quality assurance throughout the tertiary search and sieve phase of deployment this was a

01:46:59 and sieve phase of deployment this was a two-stage process designed and implemented from the very from very early in the tertiary phase with the aim of adding confidence to the search process

01:47:06 process who oversaw the quality control system throughout that phase of the operation the quality control said that very early quality control system was implemented by the

01:47:18 control system was implemented by the initial dvi coordinator and then it was managed by the serm on a day-to-day basis

01:47:24 basis now you've said that it was a two-stage process there as i've read to you what were the two stages so

01:47:32 so the serm would identify which flat spaces were being searched on any um on any particular day and they would introduce a

01:47:43 would introduce a a a whiteboard pen lid if you can imagine a pen lid of sort of an inch and a half um in in size and maybe three quarter inch in diameter um

01:47:55 diameter um into the

01:47:56 into the into the debris not disturbing it within the sections but

01:48:00 but as an analog for something that was clearly alien to the scene so it wouldn't be recognized as being part of the

01:48:07 the the um the scene it could be cleaned uh between users but it demonstrated that it was being found on a daily basis it was a positive control to ensure that the searches were engaged right

01:48:20 the searches were engaged right and who designed this two-stage process that process was designed by the initial dvi coordinator i believe and was it a standard or was it um

01:48:31 and was it a standard or was it um tailor-made for this it was tailor-made for this so so there was there was an early conversation about what could we introduce that that could ensure engagement and and um uh

01:48:42 uh the suggestion that came initially from um the i think it came from the world trade center anthropologists was was to introduce some osseous material which we weren't keen on because that seemed to

01:48:53 weren't keen on because that seemed to be adding a potential risk of contamination but certainly risk of confusion [Music]

01:48:58 [Music] and we were content with a with working with the size of the object as being our positive control and did these the searchers know

01:49:09 and did these the searchers know that there was a penalty in there they knew that one team would find a penalty during that day um bearing in mind that at our height we had 13 or 14 teams working at the time they

01:49:21 13 or 14 teams working at the time they didn't know it would they didn't know they were primed for it in advance but they they were aware that it was a positive control that was functioning right

01:49:29 right and then a paragraph 48 you explained that a whiteboard pendlet was used as this foreign control object

01:49:36 object and you explained the reasons if were there any occasions upon which the dvi or lsa team failed to find the foreign control object now i'm not aware of any times when it wasn't found i see now while we're talking about quality

01:49:47 now while we're talking about quality control i just want to ask you one or two questions about some of the hazards that you have to be aware of and mitigate during the entire operation not just the search and sieve part of the operation but from the beginning

01:49:58 operation but from the beginning now we looked at the acro props and you've explained in your statement if we go to paragraph 21 paragraph 53 that there are a number of hazards there

01:50:08 there and uh you list them in the following paragraphs and i think you do so in alphabetical order is that right um

01:50:16 um it looks as if they are yes i think i might do yes i think they are now

01:50:20 are now yes starting with access to flats and then the next one airborne contaminants i just want to ask you about one or two of those can i pick up paragraph 74 on page 28 please

01:50:36 page 28. paragraph 74 water water posed both a hazard and a nuisance during the course of the examination of the tower during the initial phases of search firefighting water ran down the

01:50:48 search firefighting water ran down the central staircase for days following the cessation of firefighting activity and pooled in the subfloors of the building from which it required pumping out through a filter to avoid the potential

01:50:59 through a filter to avoid the potential loss of disturbed remains carried down by the flow of water so first the water as you say comes down or came down the central staircase where did it come

01:51:10 did it come from before it went into the central staircase

01:51:13 staircase um

01:51:14 um it

01:51:16 it it can only be pumped through i presume it was pumped through primarily externally i don't know that for a fact because i wasn't within the tower during those firefighting efforts my first memory of it was being at the

01:51:27 my first memory of it was being at the bottom of those stairs on my first day of entering um the tower and and being aware of running water coming down the central staircase

01:51:37 staircase and the first day of entry for you i think was the saturday the 70s that's right yes yeah

01:51:43 and how how was the risk of that water removing any debris within the tower mitigated

01:51:50 mitigated um

01:51:51 um the

01:51:52 the initial

01:51:53 initial walkway areas were cleared uh in the first instance so that if if material was suddenly present at the bottom of the stairs it would be

01:52:04 at the bottom of the stairs it would be very apparent if that were the case the staircase was then cleared up to provide clear access

01:52:11 and early on when we were walking into

01:52:14 into recovery flats checking the bottoms of people's shoes to make sure they're not picked up material that was um that was wet that's it and

01:52:23 and were

01:52:24 were remains found in the filter in the sub-floors of the building no right

01:52:33 if we go back a page please to page 27 paragraph 70 you say

01:52:39 you say light

01:52:40 light the tower had no integral electricity supply following the fire and the initial response phase was conducted using handheld torches and helmet mounted lights while the flats generally had had good natural light the staircases received

01:52:53 natural light the staircases received very little reflected light and were largely black with charged deposition this confounding factor made searching difficult in the initial stages of deployment had also increased the risk of tripping and falling in addition loss

01:53:06 of tripping and falling in addition loss of light towards the end of the search period in november and december further reduced natural light levels and curtailed activity in the beginning and ends of the days i think you mean at the beginnings and

01:53:18 i think you mean at the beginnings and ends of the days yes um now

01:53:21 now how did you manage the absence of an integral electrical supply in order for your teams to carry out their work so we very quickly um the metropolitan police

01:53:34 the metropolitan police accessed a store of rechargeable battery lights so in addition to carrying the rest of the equipment up the stairs we would carry two light packs up

01:53:46 packs up um

01:53:47 um as i say that in the in the flats that generally wasn't a huge challenge because they were well lit through the open windows or be it the um the battery lights still assisted if

01:53:58 um the battery lights still assisted if you think that the debris particularly on the um the lower floors floors four to nine is very blackened and charred it's very hard to differentiate human remains

01:54:09 hard to differentiate human remains within that kind of barrier so

01:54:13 so the lights are really essential the lobbies were a much bigger challenge particularly as the metal security doors were put onto the flats so they become a darker you've got

01:54:24 flats so they become a darker you've got a darker central space than in the middle it's very difficult then to clear and did those hazards and the risk mitigation strategies put in place have any significant adverse effect on the uh on your

01:54:37 adverse effect on the uh on your operation

01:54:38 operation it it certainly increased the time requirements um particularly in those darker spaces it it meant entry and egress via the staircase in

01:54:51 entry and egress via the staircase in those early days was was particularly challenging i certainly had one um

01:54:57 um emergency evacuation that i was present for um

01:55:02 for um and that was uh it was challenging to get i don't know how many people maybe 20 people out the tower rapidly when one of the um the wasp devices activated um so light was

01:55:14 wasp devices activated um so light was certainly a confounding factor certainly made things more dangerous right dangerous because you were in a potentially dangerous building as opposed to holding up the actual work that's right

01:55:25 holding up the actual work that's right so dangerous in the sense that we're trying to move at pace down the staircase um to respond to an evacuation call it's one more factor that's um that's playing into that being a risky activity yes i see and then let's turn

01:55:37 activity yes i see and then let's turn to page 19. go back please paragraph 49 i would just want to ask you about the phase 3 completion certificate paragraph 49 under the heading management of final searches

01:55:50 management of final searches uh of recovery spaces there you explain um

01:55:55 um what that process was and you refer to a phase 3 completion certificate uh in the third and fourth lines there can you see yes um what was that what was that what was the phase three so

01:56:07 was that what was the phase three so that was a document that we designed that would be signed by the coordinating archaeologist and the the duty serm to say that all of those activities that

01:56:19 to say that all of those activities that we listed in that table previously around windowsills and material being bagged had been all undertaken so it's effectively it was a a paper record of that quality control system right right

01:56:30 that quality control system right right and the coordinating archaeologist was what the archaeologist attached to the dvi and lso teams was it no so that would either be normally myself or dr ryder who would be sat outside in uh at

01:56:41 ryder who would be sat outside in uh at our archaeologist's desk so we would come in in order to do that investigation if neither of us were on duty there'd be another senior archaeologist who was appointed to do that wrong right and what steps did you take or dr ryder took to the best of

01:56:52 take or dr ryder took to the best of your knowledge to satisfy yourself that you could sign the certificate so we would have the um the the list of requirements such that we've read off there

01:57:01 there and an inspection will be made of the flat

01:57:06 flat by the coordinating archaeologist and the serm

01:57:09 the serm in conjunction and they would go through the list of of activities to make sure all had been completed right did you ever observe yourself the process of sieving and searching yes you did yes yeah i undertook sieving

01:57:21 did yes yeah i undertook sieving where as and when i was required to right and was there any occasion on which you were not satisfied with any part of the process that you were observing

01:57:29 observing um

01:57:32 not not that i was unsatisfied with the process but you but you want to engage the team that you're working with to make sure that they're working to the best of their ability i think that's a slightly different maybe that's a i don't know if that's a subtle

01:57:43 don't know if that's a subtle distinction but but it's more about optimizing that process but at no stage did i have to stop proceeding to say i was unhappy with the work that was undertaken and which tasks were required to be completed for that level of sign-off

01:57:55 completed for that level of sign-off um

01:57:56 um for that level that final phase three completion sign-off was effective the task that you read previously about the sweeping of the window sills all debris has been sieved all debris is bagged

01:58:07 has been sieved all debris is bagged bags are all um all recorded with the floor flat and zone number and dates of sieving all floor gullies are cleared and are sprayed up to have been cleared

01:58:19 and are sprayed up to have been cleared all

01:58:20 all metal work and glass work has been appropriately bagged up so in effect there is no extraneous material still present within the flats and at what point in the operation between the june and the december of 2017 did you start

01:58:32 december of 2017 did you start issuing uh phase three completion certificates these started very late across the whole proceedings i would be guessing but i would imagine that it was probably september before we

01:58:43 that it was probably september before we were beginning to issue those certificates now finally after the sign off of the phase three completion certificates um you i think explain that the bag debris was removed from each of the

01:58:54 debris was removed from each of the search spaces and you covered that on the next page page 20 paragraph 52 you just look at that

01:59:04 um are you able to explain how the debris was removed yes so

01:59:08 yes so removal of the debris is a challenge in in its own right and it's one that i was aware of going on but but not one that i i took a a commanding role over because our phase

01:59:20 commanding role over because our phase of the work had been completed by that stage but in essence if you think that a a flat might have 300 bags of debris within it all of which

01:59:32 debris within it all of which are fairly weighty so moving that in its own right becomes becomes a challenge so as part of the external scaffolding that was put in place around the tower a lift and hoist structure was

01:59:45 a lift and hoist structure was was constructed and

01:59:49 slots were cut through the walls of what we called flat one on each of the floors so because we had no flat numbers to work with as they would be numbered by the residents our flats were numbered one to six in a

02:00:01 our flats were numbered one to six in a clockwise direction and then numbered by floor as well so flat one which was one of the two bedroom flats would have had a hole cut in it and then

02:00:11 and then initially the bagged material within that flat would be taken out uh and cleared via the hoist and put into one of the cargo containers and then working around clockwise the

02:00:23 and then working around clockwise the material from the other flats on that floor would be moved into flat one on that floor and then out through the hoist i see and who was responsible for overseeing that operation that operation was

02:00:35 that operation that operation was overseen by the serm with and staffed by dvi and lso teams the actual physical movement of those bags

02:00:46 now for the last set of questions i just want to ask you about the chain of custody of human remains and if we can go please to page 39 of your statement paragraph 87 halfway down there page

02:00:58 halfway down there page you have a title the chain of custody of human remains and

02:01:04 and you explain there that the chain of custody that govern the transfer of human remains from their recovery space of origin

02:01:10 of origin to final reception at the westminster mortuary was a vital aspect of the security underpinning the investigation of the tower to achieve this the haa holding order to area temporary remain

02:01:22 holding order to area temporary remain storage area was located adjacent to the search control building and the serms office

02:01:27 office the dvi human remains recovery protocols mandated by international published standards provided that the urn reference system to ensure that a single unique reference number was issued on

02:01:38 unique reference number was issued on the location of human remains and was directly associated with the bagged remains throughout its transfer the urn is then repeated on the front of the pm book which is used which was used to

02:01:49 book which is used which was used to record sketches and written descriptions associated with remains now uh you then continue with further details in the following paragraphs 88 and following but just on the basis of what i've read

02:02:01 but just on the basis of what i've read to you are you able to explain why it was important first to have a system in place regarding the chain of custody of human remains recovered from grenfell tower this chain of custody is the core of the

02:02:14 this chain of custody is the core of the responsibility that comes with dvi training so um when those remains are within the flat within which the the living person had

02:02:25 within which the the living person had died

02:02:26 died they are

02:02:27 they are they're secure in the sense that we know that they're in that flat we know we we know that it's a closed space as soon as those remains are bagged up and they come down to a common area like

02:02:39 and they come down to a common area like this uh the haa the temporary storage area

02:02:42 area then you're elevating the risk of of numbers being mistranscribed or elements that weren't in the room being confused before you then get to a mortar

02:02:53 confused before you then get to a mortar phase so

02:02:54 phase so ensuring that that numerical system is underpinned by the urn system that the urn number features on the on the the packaging or the bag of the

02:03:05 on the the packaging or the bag of the remains clearly displayed on the outside is then clearly written up and transcribed on the the storage area whiteboard and is copied across onto all

02:03:16 whiteboard and is copied across onto all of the

02:03:16 of the subsequent dvi paperwork that's that's the fundamental thing to get right if if the remains can then reach the mortuary with that number associated all other records can can

02:03:28 associated all other records can can come from that and is it right that where they're working with remains located a url is allocated to the remains in the location yes absolutely and the photograph is taken of the the written url number and the urine number

02:03:39 written url number and the urine number on that initial piece of paper is printed it isn't written out by somebody so it is a it is a an automate automatically generated number that comes with those books in

02:03:50 number that comes with those books in advance like like a raffle ticket and the photograph is taken with the remains and the number sat next to them and that number is is this right continuously associated with the remains throughout their transfer from grenfell

02:04:01 throughout their transfer from grenfell tower to the mortuary yes and

02:04:05 and how would you ensure that the bags which contained those remains were secure so those bags would be there'd be a number of different levels of wrapping so if if it were a

02:04:16 so if if it were a the core of a body that was at risk of fragmenting then that would initially be lifted very carefully onto a piece of

02:04:27 a piece of of clean white plastic so it's a body sheet

02:04:30 sheet it will be wrapped in the ends sealed like a like a christmas cracker and tape sealed so that's all contained and then that placed within a sealed body bag and then the body bag zip

02:04:42 body bag and then the body bag zip sealed with a numbered seal that repeats that printed url number and when you say it

02:04:49 it is

02:04:49 is sealed

02:04:52 sealed is it initially on the on the body sheet sealed so that the parts can't then move with gravity or movement yes so so you the sealing activity is designed both to ensure that nothing is

02:05:03 designed both to ensure that nothing is lost or confused but also that movement is an absolute minimum because obviously these are highly fragile remains and simply in their transfer from the flat down the stairs to the mortuary there

02:05:14 down the stairs to the mortuary there will be further fragmentation so to ensure that the anthropologists can be and the end uh pathologist and oncologist can be content that that fragmentation relates to those that initial set of remains and how would

02:05:25 initial set of remains and how would those remains then uh travel physically from the base of the tower to the mortuary they would travel by undertakers by private ambulances

02:05:37 custody sorry a chain of custody would still be maintained around them they would travel with a police officer i believe right and was that chain of custody that applied to items of note that were not human remains

02:05:48 human remains so items of note that were intimately associated with somebody say a wedding ring on a finger would be transferred as part of that dvi process they'd be regarded as being a part of

02:05:59 they'd be regarded as being a part of that person items of note that fall outside of that area in the blue boxes on that chart that i showed you previously wouldn't come within that dvi system they would

02:06:10 come within that dvi system they would pass through an exhibit system so we had metropolitan police exhibits officers present at the tower and they would take custody of items of note so things like wallets phones if a wallet couldn't be

02:06:22 wallets phones if a wallet couldn't be directly associated with somebody yes wallets phones surviving printed matter jewelry that wasn't automatically associated with with an individual yes

02:06:33 individual yes yes i see

02:06:36 and what about animal bones animal bones would be packaged and exhibited as per exhibit because they're not they don't fall under the dvi process

02:06:46 process however

02:06:48 however they went to a separate part of the mortuary

02:06:52 mortuary that was specifically put aside for animal remains partly because of the need to continue to show

02:06:59 to show due concern around them where they've been family pets but also as a a final check by the anthropologist to ensure that no human remains had become co-mingled with those animal remains

02:07:10 co-mingled with those animal remains thank you

02:07:11 thank you well dr harrison you'll be glad to hear that i've come to the end of my prepared questions for you it's customary now for me to ask the chairman to take a short break while i review our notes and uh and also to make sure that there

02:07:22 and uh and also to make sure that there is an opportunity for those in the room or outside the room to consider whether there are any further questions for you thank you well don harrison mr militz explained now why we have to have a short break um

02:07:36 have a short break um i'm just looking at the clock do you think 10 minutes is long enough mr millett yes i think so if we need longer that i can ask yes um so we'll stop there we'll come back please at 20 past 12. thank you and then we'll see if

02:07:47 12. thank you and then we'll see if there's any more questions for you at that point all right thank you very much would you go with the usher please

02:08:00 thank you very much 25 12.

02:20:00 would you ask dr harrison to come back in please thank you

02:20:14 right doc harrison well let's see if there any more questions for you thank you yes mr millet mr chairman there are no further questions dr harrison it only remains for me to thank you very much for your statement

02:20:25 thank you very much for your statement and for coming here to the inquiry today to assist with our with our further investigations we're extremely grateful to you so thank you very much thank you and dr harrison before you go it's right that i should thank you very much on

02:20:36 that i should thank you very much on behalf of the panel um i think i can speak for us all when i say we found your evidence very interesting and very helpful thank you for such a detailed report and

02:20:47 thank you for such a detailed report and for all the work that you've done not just for the inquiry but in the uh in connection with the dvi process generally so thank you very grateful to you thank you very much indeed and now of course you're free to go

02:20:59 of course you're free to go thank you

02:21:10 thank you very much mr millet now uh

02:21:13 uh later on we're going to hear two further uh presentations that's right isn't it that is right and they uh relate to the occupants at the time of flat 202 on the 23rd yes

02:21:24 23rd yes and

02:21:26 and those are have been set in the timetable for two o'clock yes and so we shall rise at that point and resume at two o'clock this afternoon thank you very much

02:22:54 you