London Fire Brigade Watch Manager Michael Dowden's testimony on his 72D familiarization visits to Grenfell Tower and response on the night of the fire.
00:00:08 by numbers which we have mr. Dover please please
00:00:46 [Music]
00:01:06 you're right they're trying to have this one
00:01:26 Your Honor that one computer try and thank you prankster don't have to carry on yes let me know if you need to bring 200 thank you yes mr. millet mr. darling I was in the middle of a question when we stopped and
00:01:38 middle of a question when we stopped and based on the generic risk assessment 3.2 which I appreciate it as a document or policy or not familiar with can I just take a step back and try and shorten
00:01:49 take a step back and try and shorten things a little bit in terms of your seniority as a watch manager could you put some context around that so who would be below you as a watch manager at
00:02:02 would be below you as a watch manager at North Kensington I'd have to junior officers of the rank of our crew manager and I have two of those at the time in the foreign June 27 a night to write the
00:02:22 the foreign June 27 a night to write the F has gone to speak to the technical people we'll just have to wait a moment because just so you all understands has got to go on a transcript and a live feed so we can't do anything until sorry
00:02:36 feed so we can't do anything until sorry thank you can you see the transcribers who need your attention
00:02:52 yeah thanks on
00:04:01 just test
00:04:10 you
00:04:14 mr. chairman mr. Townsend can I continue with my question just about your seniority and where you fit into the London Fire Brigade hierarchy so you
00:04:26 London Fire Brigade hierarchy so you expend who is junior to you at the time at the grenfell tower fire at North Kensington could you just explain the seniority of the ranks above you so
00:04:37 seniority of the ranks above you so above me there will be a station manager who would be responsible for the burning of all four watches at North Kensington and that would be replicated of course for all London fire stations above that
00:04:48 for all London fire stations above that you'll have what we call a group manager a borough commander so in respects of North Kensington the borough commander would be in charge of the Kensington and Chelsea borough and
00:04:59 the Kensington and Chelsea borough and that includes north kenseth and fire station
00:05:01 station Chelsea fire station and Kensington fire station above that you have a Deputy Assistant Commissioner and this who we in charge of the area there's four areas living alone the fire brigade the area I
00:05:13 living alone the fire brigade the area I work in is the southwest area so Deputy Assistant Commissioner will be in charge of that Pacific area and all of the stations within that area above then you have ACS and they have there are in
00:05:26 have ACS and they have there are in charge of Pacific maybe five stations Quality Assurance etc and above that you have director level which is you have the commissioner director for
00:05:38 the commissioner director for contractual financial services director of operations and director of a safety and assurance right thank you very much and now I asked you some questions earlier about the generic risk
00:05:50 earlier about the generic risk assessment 3.2 and you did explain that it wasn't a document you were familiar with can I show you the
00:06:01 with can I show you the London Fire Brigade policy for high-rise firefighting which is policy six three three which is in tab four of the
00:06:14 three which is in tab four of the policies bundle which we looked at before and can I ask you please to turn it to internal page 19 appendix one
00:06:29 and this is a list of things that under 72 d or on 72 d visits personnel should
00:06:41 72 d or on 72 d visits personnel should ensure they're familiar with and their impact on firefighting and search and rescue operations and you can see there on the screen a long list of things my question is is that list familiar to you
00:06:53 question is is that list familiar to you from policy 633 it's something I've seen in the past yes yeah and when you do 72 d visits who is result Kensington or in
00:07:05 d visits who is result Kensington or in the London Fire Brigade generally is responsible for ensuring that watches that do 7 2 D visits look at the things on the list view 7 2 D process for for
00:07:18 on the list view 7 2 D process for for us system so we'll go out local crews we'll go out to visit premise they'll gather their own information and this will be uploaded onto a brigade system
00:07:29 will be uploaded onto a brigade system called the OID the operational risk database once the information has been uploaded on to the operational risk database and that's been submitted then that will go through to the relevant
00:07:41 that will go through to the relevant station manager all of that particular station the verification if the station manager is happy with the quality of that information then that will then get further submitted to our PDA section
00:07:54 further submitted to our PDA section with predetermined attendances section who have overriding sort of authorization on that if any one of those 2 points that the assurance points the station manager or our PDA Department aren't happy also with the
00:08:08 Department aren't happy also with the quality of the information that's been gathered then they can refer that back to station level and within the hour the operational review database system they
00:08:19 operational review database system they can annotate comments against that and point the station personnel in the right direction in terms of where the information is lacking thank you and looking at this shopping list and picking up the line of questions I was
00:08:30 picking up the line of questions I was asking you about before before we broke for lunch can you see that about halfway down this bullet point lists there's a reference to floor layouts and any building construction
00:08:41 layouts and any building construction features and I'll go on floor layouts and any building construction features which may promote rapid or abnormal fire spreads such as sandwich panels timber
00:08:52 spreads such as sandwich panels timber frame construction Patriot or voids on your visits to rental Tower that we saw about we saw earlier this morning in
00:09:04 about we saw earlier this morning in 2016
00:09:05 2016 did you look at any of those features
00:09:22 young America really have any recollection of would be the floor layouts itself and I know it doesn't say cladding in this list but can I just ask did you when you did your 70d visit at
00:09:34 did you when you did your 70d visit at groennfell tower look at the cladding that's something I didn't look at it wasn't aware of them having know what I
00:09:45 wasn't aware of them having know what I know now that's certainly something I would have looked at without them yeah thank you just a couple more questions on visits can I ask you to look at the
00:09:56 on visits can I ask you to look at the bundle tab 27 which is run of emails the reference to which is lfb 0 0 0 0 1 2 9 and following and I just want to show
00:10:09 and following and I just want to show you this mr. dam just to just to see if I can prompt your recollection of a visit in the summer of 2016 if you go to that run of emails and turn to page
00:10:24 that run of emails and turn to page 11:30
00:10:25 11:30 well it's zero zero zero zero eleven thirty five point one and point two we start with point two is like on all
00:10:36 start with point two is like on all emails they're backwards if you go to the second mr. Trebek if you go to the next document in the in the run
00:10:51 right thank you you'll see it at the top of the page this is an email from Nicholas Davis to use 2008 of the 20th
00:11:04 Nicholas Davis to use 2008 of the 20th of July 2016 subject Grenfell advising lfp operational crews of works completion report ins hi Mike could you contact Janice rein regarding the request to
00:11:15 Janice rein regarding the request to attend Tuesday morning you know it you have a QA one with GM Davis schedule that he'll be away on leave so that will not happen this will be a good opportunity for crews to ask any questions with the site agent before
00:11:27 questions with the site agent before they leave and your response to that comes on the next page the page before
00:11:37 where you go back to Nicholas Davis the next day 21st of July 2016 and copy to Janice ray and Janice we can attend on
00:11:48 Janice ray and Janice we can attend on Tuesday with 11:30 hours be occur I'm off duty now until Tuesday morning OPEC have your response then and then the last document which is just a little bit above that on the same page the response
00:11:59 above that on the same page the response from Janice ray at the 22nd of July to you copy - Nicholas Davis and other people at the KC TM oh hi Michael thanks
00:12:10 people at the KC TM oh hi Michael thanks for coming back to me the right and sight agent Dave Hughes has confirmed that Tuesday 11th of 1134 familiarization and grethel terrorists convenient for him he will see you there in regards Janice now just looking at
00:12:23 in regards Janice now just looking at that short email exchange does that prompt a recollection in your mind as to as to a visit in July 2016 - Granville Tower that's the vigil have you lived in - Mustang yes right I see
00:12:35 you lived in - Mustang yes right I see so at that stage what what do the works look like a reefer works in terms of how they were completed
00:12:50 I was a comical and at time do you remember being shown around or do you remember meeting in the site agent ride in the site agent that has a referred to
00:13:02 in the site agent that has a referred to previously yes I do remember making contact of a representative from widens yes and do you remember whether it was Dave Hughes that was his name I can't remember his name and summarizing it
00:13:19 remember his name and summarizing it would it be right given what you said this morning about your visit visits that apart from the
00:13:30 your visit visits that apart from the dry rising main but let me ask the question this way apart from looking at the dry rising main did you look at anything else so far as firefighting and
00:13:43 anything else so far as firefighting and evacuation was concerned at Granville tower on that visit all the visit in February
00:13:53 the only other thing that as I mentioned before is in terms of the if I engineered solutions with the smoking track system that was whether that
00:14:04 track system that was whether that wasn't covered in the Bible or of those visits that's my memory and also looking at layups I do remember that the
00:14:16 at layups I do remember that the particularly if it'll be errors the the dries out let being in that left at left hand corner so there must have been some
00:14:25 information gathering in terms of that Lobby layout area as well on the basis of what you just said can we take you the best that's the totality that's all
00:14:37 the best that's the totality that's all you and as I can remember as of this point yes yes thank you very much
00:14:49 but Mr Dan I'm now going to go before I go to the night just to a very small number of documents just to see if you could help me with them can I ask you first to look at the
00:15:01 can I ask you first to look at the document in our bundle tab to which is lfb 0 0 0 0 0 1 4 4
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00:15:25 now this is a document I'll give you the date it's not it's not it's not on this pages at the back but I'll tell you the date of it it's 3rd of November 2016 and
00:15:37 date of it it's 3rd of November 2016 and you can see from the top it's called the London Fire Brigades fire safety regulation premises inspection and data collection form the first question is have you ever seen this type of document
00:15:50 have you ever seen this type of document before no I haven't no Alberta's ooh that's not something that we generally would be filtered down to the station basically but I can only presume that's
00:16:02 basically but I can only presume that's something that would be for a fire safety department right so if I was to ask you any questions about this document would you be able to help me you know right they went next document
00:16:15 you know right they went next document is tap 13 of the bundle NFB 0 0 0 0 3 1 1 6 and this is an lfb document which
00:16:31 1 6 and this is an lfb document which says ORD at the top are you familiar with this type of document yes I am could you explain what it is please this is missing part of the as you see now at
00:16:42 is missing part of the as you see now at the top of operational risk database so this is for when crews go and visit a premise and I was alluding to earlier in terms of the quality assurance of that
00:16:53 terms of the quality assurance of that by either station manager or our predetermined attendance department either any visits from a station level or any changes we can maybe annotate on
00:17:04 or any changes we can maybe annotate on that on this and this will be born off of the system so it's electronically filed and also comments from either station manager or the PDA Department will also be populated within this
00:17:17 will also be populated within this document thank you now at the top you'll see that it's completed by Ricketts d but I think that's Dean Ricketts that's correct is it yes
00:17:28 correct is it yes could you just explain who is he is a watch going to be like myself and he's in charge of than the other kinds Green watch green one yes is he senior to you or Julius you know he's the same guy same yeah does he watch manager a
00:17:40 guy same yeah does he watch manager a will be his what's mine should be you'd be always be as well the rightness and it's dated the 15th of February 2017 and if you just look through the document just over the page it starts at the
00:17:54 just over the page it starts at the bottom and it runs it runs as it were upwards so the most recent it looks like that the comments come in and they're piled on top of each other and it starts at if you go over the page with an entry
00:18:10 at if you go over the page with an entry on the 10th of February 2015 and I think that's after your 720 visit in February 2015
00:18:19 2015 excuse me I've got that rock that's before your 2016 visit and it says ground fault IRAs country undergoing major refurbishment nine extra flats are being added taking the block to a total
00:18:32 being added taking the block to a total of a hundred and twenty nine flats the DRM is being moved through outside the building and workers scheduled for completion or the 23rd of October 2015 quick rental rate is frequently blocked
00:18:43 quick rental rate is frequently blocked by site vehicles now on the bottom two to three floors of the tower or site offices and a building site and their access to the DRM and lifts remain and its put on there by someone called Healy
00:18:54 its put on there by someone called Healy a who is that Andrew Hill is a crew manager on the green watch group manager cleaning crew manager crew man a crew manatee a pricey and if you go to the
00:19:07 manatee a pricey and if you go to the next pay will the first page of the document
00:19:09 document going back in the bundle one page you go to the bottom of that page and there it refers to a site visit to Granville Tower and the user is Dowd an N I've
00:19:20 Tower and the user is Dowd an N I've seen that's you mr. inked with the date of the third of February 2016 and that would have been the day after your 72d visit we looked at on the visit scheduled this morning is that correct that's correct yes and it says site
00:19:33 that's correct yes and it says site visitor Grantham tower following refurbishment of the block a temp dry riser in that will be installed on 4th floor to allow additions to residential a comedy
00:19:41 a comedy being added a second of the floors they should only occur for a period of three days authority will be informed when this occurs ride and building contractor are currently liaison with fire safety is that is that the information you put
00:19:56 is that is that the information you put onto the Ord yourself yes did you put any other information onto the LRD as a result of your visit I mean I think take
00:20:12 result of your visit I mean I think take it from me it's not on this document I don't if I had then it would be available for all people to on through that Rd system right but I can't
00:20:23 that Rd system right but I can't remember okay and then it continues on up the page and at the top it says entry via front door
00:20:37 at the top it says entry via front door this is a this is the entry by Ricketts D 15th of February 2017 entry fire front door if drop key is used this will release the internal door between entries lobbying lift Lobby just just
00:20:51 entries lobbying lift Lobby just just pausing there can you help us with what they drop key is I dropped here is fire service key and it allows us to to uses
00:21:02 service key and it allows us to to uses allow us to get into not just Pacific to high-rise to a secure access block if it's residential but also allows to command the majority of firefighting
00:21:14 command the majority of firefighting lifts in the event of a fire in a high-rise block okay where's the key where is the drop key normally kept it should be kept in a set of state of
00:21:25 should be kept in a set of state of fireplace keys that's on lift keys we call it a lift key bag that's on the front both most on the front of every front line pumping appliance well that's a pump load up or a pump I see okay
00:21:37 a pump load up or a pump I see okay thank you and we may come to this in detail later but it can you use the drop key to normally to access a building
00:21:50 key to normally to access a building which is protected with electronic security and a fob system that's correct you normally can can you know
00:21:59 can I ask you then to go to another document tab 14 next tab which is lfb 0 0 0 0 3 5 9 6 and this is a series of
00:22:19 0 0 0 3 5 9 6 and this is a series of screenshots from something called the station diary are you familiar with this document this run of screenshots it's kind of thing yes I am ok can you
00:22:31 kind of thing yes I am ok can you explain what it is that there is a screenshot of the electronic system that helps us sort gathering and process the
00:22:42 helps us sort gathering and process the information that we will obtain on the high-rise or a familiar ization visit I see and that's that first screen there is the screen drop from an internal
00:22:55 is the screen drop from an internal software system or station diary allow us to access the Rd system ok and you can identify Kenya who fills this document in its ordered school yes right
00:23:08 document in its ordered school yes right say if we look for example at page 4 of 13 internally you can see if you blow it up then at the bottom it says a risk
00:23:19 up then at the bottom it says a risk matrix for this address and that this is this is Grendel tower it was last completed by watch manager B Ricketts D on 15th of February 9 or 'the kensington
00:23:30 on 15th of February 9 or 'the kensington fire station green watch so from that would it be right just want to ask you that whoever goes on the 17 d visit or other kind of physic would fit in this
00:23:44 other kind of physic would fit in this document on the station diary no not to a full extent you know there be a lot of information already on the 70d process
00:23:57 information already on the 70d process or system so you won't necessarily have to do
00:24:01 to do a full and robust information-gathering because a lot of the information should only be there expectation should be there if it was the first time anyone have visited that premise then yes
00:24:13 have visited that premise then yes that's correct however you may have to make slight amendments cuz things do change with him within properties and recipe that's residential commercial yeah and yeah that will the way that be identified is
00:24:24 that will the way that be identified is from that the previous screen shot we saw which was the the audit process of who's actually updated our system could you turn to page nine please that within the run of screenshots and just well if
00:24:39 the run of screenshots and just well if there's any way of enlarging that the page just a little bit but before the trial director does that can you see mister darden on this page of these
00:24:50 mister darden on this page of these screenshots it says building specific time unchecked and then underneath it there's another box it says building specific tab checked yep could you just explain the difference between the
00:25:02 explain the difference between the uncheck box and the check box if you're having difficulties so get this this is a no no this isn't a system of format of health supplies helps us identify station level the risk and accordance at
00:25:17 station level the risk and accordance at risk how regularly we need to visit that building so the one where it says unchecked every single one of those currently if it's not highlighted in blue has not been checked by someone inputted some data onto that system so
00:25:28 inputted some data onto that system so we physically have to open that system up and click on the relevant number corresponding to what information we've identified or gathered on a bit on the
00:25:40 identified or gathered on a bit on the visit right so just looking at I'm just following that up a little bit if you look at the uncheck box just below where it says environment specific risk to dot
00:25:52 it says environment specific risk to dot staff and public visit there's a snow on the screen but it says mister trial director then if you can get down a bit further there a risk matrix completed by Ricketts 15 February 17 say when you
00:26:05 Ricketts 15 February 17 say when you look at that box is it right that where it's unchecked is because mr. Ricketts has decided not to check the particular item our concerts true
00:26:17 the particular item our concerts true now he may have checked that Pacific item but unfortunately sometimes it the systems are only good as a date to entry yeah yeah okay fair enough
00:26:28 yeah yeah okay fair enough no wet pressing to too much further just just to push it a little bit made though can you see items 405 and 407 yes flat 405 flammable core sandwich panel
00:26:41 405 flammable core sandwich panel construction this is for a 7 modern methods of construction unusual design materials first of all what are those numbers do you know 405 and 487 what do they correspond to they correspond to
00:26:54 they correspond to they correspond to what scene are 800 which is management operational risk information right and where those two items are listed as unchecked what does that mean that means
00:27:07 unchecked what does that mean that means that the individual quality things here either the individual hasn't covered that information on the visit or visual has covered that information unfortunately hasn't entered a
00:27:18 unfortunately hasn't entered a curriculum to the system right and then checked which is the box at the bottom
00:27:27 you can see 504 appliance accesses access difficulties and then crew access difficulties and your name appears on the previous edition for that entry
00:27:43 again is it right that those numbers correspond to a wrist particular risk in policy 800 yes there's a risk matrix in policy 800 yes and so will it follow that where that risk has been checked
00:27:54 that where that risk has been checked and the system has picked it up correctly it would it would make its way on to this document that's correct can I just talk that man if we could scan back up there are it's quite
00:28:08 scan back up there are it's quite important to talk about that there are two other unchecked items on there yeah which again is really rid of its high-rise high-rise premises now
00:28:27 yeah so there's so if you see 403 a yes and 403 B so the expectation is and for
00:28:40 and 403 B so the expectation is and for whatever reason that hasn't happened on this data entry if those two boxes are checked then automatically generates a further tab within the OID operational risk database that's called an EP electronic premise
00:28:51 that's called an EP electronic premise information player and basically what that allows us what information that holds is pacific to a high-rise premise so entrances exits fixed installations
00:29:02 so entrances exits fixed installations fire lifts orientation of the building numbers of floors dimensions and on this that hurt unfortunate has not been undertaken on there thank you very much
00:29:14 undertaken on there thank you very much do you know whether there was an e pip for Grenville tower has a June 2017 I was looking at that system with the penny when that screenshot was taken it
00:29:26 penny when that screenshot was taken it would suggest it wasn't known right
00:29:36 can I just clarify some other points on on this year's the top got medium to low and that that denotes so meeting too low you've got a score of 300 so we have
00:29:48 you've got a score of 300 so we have certain markers we've been within the policy not 800 so anything up to a score of hundred and fifty we have two so as a watch officer decide does that need inclusion on the Ord is that enough of a
00:30:00 inclusion on the Ord is that enough of a race to put that on sir and so our relational database as you can see the Grand Hotel's cause 300 so it's an on on that system it shows medium to low risk and visit at least
00:30:12 medium to low risk and visit at least every three years so what will happen is that as a mirroring requirement I any watch this is not just related to green filter this is any high-rise property
00:30:24 filter this is any high-rise property any building or that will be on our operational review database so the expectation would be that what would have to visit a premise of that medium to low risk rough every three years yes
00:30:42 to low risk rough every three years yes and
00:30:46 300 out of how much is the first question I would ask yeah but if I'm honest without reference it back to plus you know I on job won't be able to the maximum loss well let me see if I can
00:30:57 maximum loss well let me see if I can help you because you mentioned policy 800 and dokdo assume you're familiar with the policy yes I'm yes let's just have a look at it just qualities through if you go to the
00:31:10 just qualities through if you go to the policies bundle and go to tab 6 this is policy 800 as at 25th of August 2015 and
00:31:26 policy 800 as at 25th of August 2015 and it's entitled management of operational risk information you have I think wanting to refer to these schools and
00:31:41 wanting to refer to these schools and there's a risk grading matrix at appendix 2 could he be shown that it's page 17 internally I don't think it's got the actual scores on there oh yes it
00:31:53 got the actual scores on there oh yes it does in red 7 above 750 which is high does that help you with your recollection of the DES correct yeah so on that Grenfell tower at 300 would be medium to low in yellow there that's
00:32:05 medium to low in yellow there that's correct
00:32:08 in your experience did you play did you ever pull any part in scoring buildings for the purposes of applying this risk grading matrix yes I have did you do
00:32:21 grading matrix yes I have did you do that for Grandville tower over
00:32:29 I can't McCoy if I actually scored in using port you know a hundred or grateful town good while we're in the policy mister mister dunne are taking it
00:32:42 policy mister mister dunne are taking it very quickly if I can let's go back a little bit if you go to paragraph ten
00:32:53 little bit if you go to paragraph ten levels of risk types of plan and frequency of visits which is on page eight internally you'll see that there is the table that we saw a moment ago
00:33:07 is the table that we saw a moment ago and then if you look at paragraph ten point two station managers and borough commanders must ensure that 100 percent of the visits identified for a station based upon the matrix of other completed
00:33:18 based upon the matrix of other completed in accordance with the program of visits as prompted by the station diary from your knowledge mister darden did the station manager north kensington or the borough commander responsible for
00:33:29 or the borough commander responsible for north kensington ensure that all the visits carried out by north kensington crews were completed in accordance with
00:33:40 crews were completed in accordance with the program prompted by the station diary
00:33:49 you see that'd be quite difficult we fix comic as a the only way a reference that is in terms of the quality assurance in the station manager and the difference so he'll have or she will have a first
00:34:00 so he'll have or she will have a first sort of glance at the information by station personnel and if they're happy then obviously that will then be submitted for PBS art yeah now you're
00:34:14 submitted for PBS art yeah now you're familiar with this policy you said you were you wrote you referred to it can I just ask you very briefly one or two questions about some other parts of it really very briefly if you get back to page five of 26 you looked at paragraph
00:34:31 page five of 26 you looked at paragraph seven point four and it says where risks are recorded on the ORD the information gathering process will need to recall the detail of the hazards and all influencing issues were you aware of
00:34:46 influencing issues were you aware of that policy and its requirements
00:34:59 yes so we will be operational review database there is a section where you can identify had to dip in that property yes and looking down at 7.5 it says where possible the information gathered with allow that allow the following to
00:35:11 with allow that allow the following to be achieved and I'll just take you to the third bullet points the formulation of a tactical plan in order to effectively implement appropriate operational procedures to mitigate risk
00:35:23 operational procedures to mitigate risk and again when you were doing your visits and entries into the Ord did you know that the requirement of the policy was to it to allow the formulation of a
00:35:37 was to it to allow the formulation of a tactical plan in part ok again yes I this isn't just seeing with the Grand Hotel we have to go back to ERISA mater's had to hang on how high it scores there is a tactical plan but
00:35:48 scores there is a tactical plan but there is there say it's a preformed document on electronically that allows you to populate your tactical plan so would it be fair to say that the
00:35:59 would it be fair to say that the tactical plan generated for any high-rise block for example or indeed any set of premises covered by this policy that tactical plan would only be as good as the information on the Ord
00:36:11 as good as the information on the Ord yes that's correct
00:36:38 yes right say thank you mister damn you could put anything you don't have the policy bundle am i doing I'm putting it away I want to turn now to the night of
00:36:51 away I want to turn now to the night of the fire good would you like your actress ask for a quick professional fight before me is a callous I would five minutes be enough do you think that's fantastic a right you leave us no then I will be coming our pyramid will arrive for five minutes
00:37:14 you
00:43:25 all right well mr. Darden's on his way down we'll have to wait just a short time till he's with us
00:44:26 thank you yes yes mr. dan I'm going to ask you about the first call out to Grenfell tower now on the evening of the
00:44:37 Grenfell tower now on the evening of the 13th of June 2017 you came on duty at 8:00 p.m. that's correct
00:44:43 correct and when reporting for duty on that evening can you tell me who was the most senior officer on duty at North Kensington that was myself and I think
00:44:55 Kensington that was myself and I think you details two firefighters to the washroom
00:44:58 washroom yeah we have one firefighter who take the primary role of looking after watch room receiving fire calls inquiries from
00:45:09 room receiving fire calls inquiries from Em's the public making local kings and then we have a call number to his assistant who will then if that if he's
00:45:20 assistant who will then if that if he's called out or she's called out on a fire call then at least we have someone else - man that was man that Amanda what room so to facilitate the watch room yeah where is the washroom in the station at North Kensington it's it's on the ground
00:45:33 North Kensington it's it's on the ground floor level adjacent to the appliance bay right now I think you say your statement the downtime started at midnight and you were resting after that
00:45:44 midnight and you were resting after that point correct what were the do you know what the rest of red watch were doing during downtown
00:45:53 Davos probably resting as well and during downtime is the watch room and
00:46:01 there is a facility to to have someone present at watch room the the tendency will be that if a fire call was received and it's a duty of the watch room
00:46:13 and it's a duty of the watch room attendant to make sure they are first into the watch rooms who received that call and to start with Geron the information in terms of the course to course Kipnis on the teleporter and who was the washroom
00:46:29 teleporter and who was the washroom attendant on duty at an from midnight on the 13th 14th of June remember without referring to my statement or rather no
00:46:43 referring to my statement or rather no okay
00:46:44 okay and in your statement on page one you say
00:47:02 whether it's potato page to actually but you say that you've got a call at at zero zero 55 on the 14th of June to grenfell tower do you remember when you
00:47:16 grenfell tower do you remember when you did your statement where you got that time from the only reference I would have to that would I be one or two things from the actual I couldn't tip
00:47:29 things from the actual I couldn't tip sheet the information sheet that was available at a time or I referenced that back into our mobilizer system where we have a sort of track log of the vision mobilising system vision okay now you
00:47:43 mobilising system vision okay now you say that the mobilization call came through the Washington watch room do you remember who took that call
00:47:56 not named Pacific the assumption that there would be the watch room attendant do you know what do you remember where the call came in from the call comes
00:48:10 the call came in from the call comes from our control center control center and that night I think it's everyone knows that was it Stratford footlights will not understand that's correct yes
00:48:21 will not understand that's correct yes yes
00:48:21 yes and is that the usual line of communication to a fire station in London that the 999 call goes to control and then control called the watch room that is Jimmy what happens there is
00:48:34 that is Jimmy what happens there is another process to that we we call running cool so if a appliance is mobile and that means it for there not a station whether they're attending on the
00:48:45 station whether they're attending on the way back from and it's the training session or familiarization visit then if we're directly contact by a member of public then we can also almost self mobilise we have to put that controlling callings of control right okay and in
00:48:59 callings of control right okay and in terms of communications between the control room at Stratford or Merton how does it work is there a landline or is it a radio communication so it's some other means it's so what happens is that
00:49:13 other means it's so what happens is that we have a mobilizing system every station within London that when tooth is simultaneous activity so when we receive a fire fire call or any call to an incident all lights will come on in a
00:49:25 incident all lights will come on in a station there's an audible warning or a normal sound a mobilisation message and that with the notes the appliances from that station who are attending at the same time you all have it you have a
00:49:38 same time you all have it you have a teleprinter in the watch room that were also basically kind of a piece of paper and on that piece of paper you have various information was relating to that fire call for that incident that's the
00:49:50 fire call for that incident that's the address classification of incident the appliance is attending how that was mobilized it was a mobile number if it was a an auto dialer or an AFA system automatic fire alarm system
00:50:03 automatic fire alarm system your client is who are attending or in attendance and so there's a range of information consult gather from that from that piece of paper and that piece of paper is it sometimes called a tip sheet that's correct
00:50:13 correct right is it is it tip or is it t IP no I just think it's a brigade terminology but yeah okay
00:50:24 but yeah okay so it's an automatic system what triggers it is it a computer message or as at that point in 2078 stood we used
00:50:35 as at that point in 2078 stood we used it it's a computer generated program we're used to it used to be manually load to our control operators and I have to mobilize themselves now it's controlled by this software system
00:50:46 controlled by this software system called vision and that it's a computer based software system that basically manages the call calls coming in price mobilizing and the filtering down to
00:50:57 mobilizing and the filtering down to station level as well okay and the information on the tip sheet where does that come from that will be that would be from a working in control but for my
00:51:08 be from a working in control but for my knowledge it's best to it it will be from this software package of vision has all the data inputted into it in terms of the resources apply it's available there are tributes officers and
00:51:19 there are tributes officers and everything else and what information about the premises with the tip sheet contain you gave us a little list earlier a little bit how much
00:51:30 earlier a little bit how much information about the premises would be contained on the tip sheet not so much of a tip sheet we with relation to high-rise premise there maybe we'll call underwrite so at the bottom of that tip
00:51:42 underwrite so at the bottom of that tip sheet if this particular comment logged against that premise or building that will be available on the tip sheet and generally for high-rise premises that
00:51:53 generally for high-rise premises that will come up this is a high-rise premise I see okay
00:52:03 costing your mind back to the night could you describe for us the moment that you receive the shout call
00:52:19 it's very difficult to be Pacific on the moment I see the call because you know the concern is a busy operational fire station so it's very difficult to
00:52:30 station so it's very difficult to differentiate between the different calls that were receiving at that time I don't really remember if there is two stood out about about with mobilization from honest how many mobilizations would
00:52:43 from honest how many mobilizations would you normally get a week it's very difficult to put a number in very difficult but and this this is just a variable vague recollection you know
00:52:54 variable vague recollection you know North Kansas and I think he's in circuit top five on the top five busiest fire stations in London right okay the harmony would you get a week one or two ten Pacific to a watch on your shift a
00:53:10 ten Pacific to a watch on your shift a quiet period it could be anything up to three or four or five busy period it could be ten or more right
00:53:22 and after the call came through what happened next I would remember specifically all
00:53:39 specifically but the general you know what will happen is that firefighters will Don their PPE Riggins was their personal protective equipment before
00:53:50 personal protective equipment before they get onto the fire appliance and that's pending level on what we see now designated to ride how many think you know in terms of that mobilization that
00:54:02 know in terms of that mobilization that we thought was stuck out at that point that was my next question was there anything unusual about that mobilization that you'd want to tell us about
00:54:19 I think the only thing Jerry different about the mobilization was and now he was identified boomers on route to the incident but at that point in time our PDA which is our predetermined
00:54:30 PDA which is our predetermined attendance to high-rise fires was for pumping appliances point of mobilization there was only three pumping appliances
00:54:41 there was only three pumping appliances that have been allocated to that incident yes and you say on page two that you were aware that it's just four lines up from the bottom the three three
00:54:54 lines up from the bottom the three three one
00:54:55 one Kensington's pump ladder had also been deployed to Grenaa field town how are you or how did you become aware of that but that's part of the information that would be included on the tip sheet but so not just specific to the station
00:55:08 so not just specific to the station other appliances attending attending according to the predetermined attendance right and you say that pumps
00:55:21 attendance right and you say that pumps G 271 and 272 were called I think G 2 G 271 is your pump that's correct there's another word we use for fire engine or appliance yeah we use alum
00:55:32 engine or appliance yeah we use alum phonetic so in the on farming AG we don't refer to as Jaime we refer to the golf that God is G as for a member of public now you understand that g27 well
00:55:43 public now you understand that g27 well that's correct like so you have two seven one and two seven two what was the difference between 271 and 272 the difference is that as a watch manager either A or B you will ride a public and
00:55:58 either A or B you will ride a public and then the
00:56:00 then the 272 will Jimmy will be officer in charge that will be a crew manager you know your rules difference is that the one the pub later will have one three five
00:56:13 the pub later will have one three five ladder so that means it extends to a maximum thirteen point five meters and then on the pump you will have a 9 meter ladder right in terms of communication abilities are
00:56:27 in terms of communication abilities are there disabled different function is a pump bladder the same as a pump in terms of its ability to communicate so in terms its radio yes the capabilities yes
00:56:38 terms its radio yes the capabilities yes it's also have the same mainstream radio yes right and just in terms of the people that were on the to do two pumps on g27 one I think you had firefighter
00:56:50 on g27 one I think you had firefighter Danny bills driving remember that as far as my recollection counts yes that's correct and I think you you say you were next to him as watch manager in the front that's correct so he's driving
00:57:02 front that's correct so he's driving he's on the right you're on the Piave miss either suppose the on the near side doesn't left and immediately behind you who have you got so immediately behind me will be a what
00:57:17 so immediately behind me will be a what in terms of that their name yes
00:57:25 without referring that into my statement there beep yes okay we've got the list of people who was there who were there and the second paragraph on page two we've got Danny bills driving and Danny
00:57:38 we've got Danny bills driving and Danny Brown five had - Danny Brown where was he do you remember where he was I again this is a I think he would been behind myself because he was that's
00:57:53 been behind myself because he was that's generally where the rider sits who's the washroom attendant because if the closest position to the washroom so it's the easiest play way for them to get to the washroom on swimming the fire appliance right I see I see
00:58:04 appliance right I see I see and then crew manager Charlie better be where was he sitting he would have been on the offside so be off-site behind the driver right and then Dave I get this
00:58:19 driver right and then Dave I get this awful mispronounce his name is it but Dilawar bad ear but did I but did oh right and he was also on g27 one way would he have been sitting he would have been in between either Charlie and Danny
00:58:30 been in between either Charlie and Danny in the middle we're not in a middle because it's we have four seats of course the of course the rear of the cab so he would have taken one of they conceits available in the middle of the
00:58:41 conceits available in the middle of the good points right so that night on g27 well over five of you that's correct and then on g27 - you've listed Chris secret is the crew manager firefighter Tom Abel who's driving and in the back
00:58:54 Tom Abel who's driving and in the back firefighters Alex does involve in Justin a Ben and Chris talking that's correct yeah you've put it in your state but do you remember that or have you looked at
00:59:05 you remember that or have you looked at a document in refresh yourself yeah I did look I mean I asked me I had to refresh refresh myself in terms of the ridership levels and that was done from our star system which is how we manage
00:59:16 our star system which is how we manage personnel software system if you look at the very bottom of page to the top of page three you're talking
00:59:28 to the top of page three you're talking about what happens on route and you say I updated the members of my team in relation to the radio traffic from control and reminded them of the tactics in relation to high-rise buildings
00:59:40 in relation to high-rise buildings breathing apparatus policies the equipment required for the bridgehead and the fact that the bridgehead would be located two floors below the fire floor what did you remember what did you
00:59:53 floor what did you remember what did you tell them about the tactics that you were going to adopt at this file
01:00:12 that I don't think it was a very much Pacific in terms of individual you know detailing of roles because that at the point you received the incident and the
01:00:24 point you received the incident and the point your operational there isn't really time to really have a real detailed briefing that's why some obviously we we have those on arrival tactics and theory session based back translation so it's more of a and that's
01:00:35 translation so it's more of a and that's not what you know relate just this is that any is that I will get us in this to commander and every instant command of all adopt this is on the front line pumping appliance yeah we yes personal
01:00:46 pumping appliance yeah we yes personal responsibility to update your crews if there's further traffic coming through in terms of traffic in terms of persons report multiple calls and just to refresh and the cruising in terms okay
01:00:58 refresh and the cruising in terms okay this is what we've got this is the expectation it would be the it would be naive of me to say here but other IDs held by very very clear because it you don't have time to do that since tomorrow on the fireplace that's all
01:01:10 tomorrow on the fireplace that's all part of creep and II part of a pre-planned yeah and how I mean how easy is it to have a four or five way conversation when you're done in personal protective equipment and you've
01:01:22 personal protective equipment and you've got a diesel engine running that speed is difficult but you know it's I was still he it up radio traffic updates is still very important right you know get that radio traffic to to
01:01:34 you know get that radio traffic to to crew members now you say in the next sentence my appliance if you see it says they're three lines to four lines down from the top of page three my appliance
01:01:46 from the top of page three my appliance has a mobile data terminal MDT on which important information about every premises can be accessed this information concerning tactics layout number of flats rendezvous points and the location of dry risers plus any
01:01:59 the location of dry risers plus any other information that may be useful when fighting a fire I'll come to the next sentence about EP in a minute but just focusing on that sentence for the moment mr. Dan and
01:02:14 is my first question is is a mobile data terminal present on every part in the London Fire Brigade yes not just the pump letters notes on the
01:02:26 not just the pump letters notes on the pump bedroom and a pump right could you just describe for us you're sitting in the cab well where is the mobile they determine what does it look like so if this is my position in the fire plight
01:02:39 this is my position in the fire plight the situation of the MDT is between myself and the driver right and when you get on to the appliance at the start of her a call
01:02:52 her a call yes out does the mobile data terminal come on automatically or do you have to boot it up and switch it on and the hands desert at the same time the cause received at station because it was run
01:03:05 received at station because it was run from the same mobilizing system vision so the information that's on the tip sheet will also be duplicated onto the mobile data terminal I see and it's ready and all is it when you get into
01:03:16 ready and all is it when you get into the cabins and go there are not on this night there are occasions that sometimes it is a computer system and it does have glitches and failures but on that night this it was available it was right and
01:03:27 this it was available it was right and can you interrogate it can you ask it questions you can you can interrogate it you can't answer questions but you there is different the we spoke about earlier
01:03:38 is different the we spoke about earlier the operational risk database so the information that is collected from the OID is available to access on your mobile data terminal right so if you
01:03:51 mobile data terminal right so if you okay and if you go to the we've seen ard before perhaps just let go back to it again could can I just comment one more thing that is important to comment on is that also we we have a system where we
01:04:04 that also we we have a system where we have to identify control that we've won except the fire call so that is also the MDT we have to this green icon that flashes up and we have to accept it also
01:04:15 flashes up and we have to accept it also we have a another tab on the data tell me which is a status button okay so it's putting quite explain the background on that here's a state this one is when any either pump will pump
01:04:26 one is when any either pump will pump nada is operational the ready fire station to respond to fire codes state is to which which will need to depress when you receive a mobilization basically means yes I've received that
01:04:38 basically means yes I've received that call at the fire station and we are proceeding to the incident stage 3 is when you're an attendance at the incident stay at 6 is when your mobile
01:04:50 incident stay at 6 is when your mobile so that could be when you finish it and in stand your one way on your way back to station if you're off site visit station visit you also have status 15
01:05:02 station visit you also have status 15 which is mobile to standby so if I get requested from control to standby another station and I have to relate information while pressing 15 on my MDT
01:05:14 information while pressing 15 on my MDT and that confirms to control I am mobile to standby at a neighboring station can I just thank you can I just get back to status one yep which you said that's when you're operationally ready at a
01:05:25 when you're operationally ready at a fire station to respond to fire corners who is it in the fire station who makes you that makes the crew state as one so
01:05:37 you that makes the crew state as one so when for the fire the fire points is that would be the officer in charge but we we can back that up with to watch them attend them because sometimes as I
01:05:48 them attend them because sometimes as I said it is a computer system sometimes there are errors and it can be delayed get you through so it's good practice also to make sure that we can make the phone contact with control to confirm that that point is status wagon
01:05:59 that that point is status wagon operationally ready right what is it were what button do you press to show your status one it is literally a button with number one on it in the in the cab in the MDT OBC varieties effect
01:06:12 in the MDT OBC varieties effect touchscreen and so they're all available but all they stay on top screen yeah right thank you now you say no statement that
01:06:25 you print it off all on route you printed off the tactical plan details
01:06:33 and that's on page three on route
01:06:53 do you remember doing that
01:06:58 yeah I have a vague memory of actually having the printed up document in my hands yes can I just ask you about those tactical black plan details I'm not sure
01:07:12 tactical black plan details I'm not sure I'm not sure we've got them as a document but before I put a document to to see if it helps with your recollection what did they what did the document tell you what are the tactical plan plan details tell you about what to
01:07:25 plan plan details tell you about what to expect it's gonna be difficult for me to reference exactly to that night but from my knowledge previous to that night and
01:07:36 my knowledge previous to that night and after that night it's it's not lycée I would say snapshot it gives you an overview of that operational risk database that's been uploaded so it gives you a site profile in terms of the
01:07:47 gives you a site profile in terms of the dimensions of the building the height of the building the life risk water supplies any hazards within that premise
01:08:03 supplies any hazards within that premise and that's not specific to Grand Hotel that would be to any any any property that is subject to an operational review database and his seven too deep program
01:08:14 database and his seven too deep program so any hazards within that premier service medical oxygen if there's a hoard within the premise any processes we can reference policy into it any
01:08:28 we can reference policy into it any fixed installations your best site andrew access operational planning considerations other agencies that we
01:08:40 considerations other agencies that we may need on on seeing right so it's quite a information rich document if it's done right if it's as a reference to if the data entry has been quite
01:08:51 to if the data entry has been quite robust and it is correct then yes can I ask you to look at a document in tab 13 mr. child director of the bundle the documents bundle which is the the ORD we
01:09:03 documents bundle which is the the ORD we looked at it before let's have it up on the screen again you can and if you turn please to the third page of this document well perhaps we
01:09:14 page of this document well perhaps we should go to the second page first actually second page and then they rock my fault third page sorry right you see
01:09:26 my fault third page sorry right you see the address and this is on the ORD and then there's a map do you remember whether that was information you got on the MDT on the night all the kind of information kind
01:09:39 night all the kind of information kind of information you would have got it's the kind of information we get because it is in a slightly different format where's that that there what we're showing there is the actual sort of the the station based desktop version right
01:09:52 the station based desktop version right I see and if you turn the neck to the next page there's something called you go to the next page which is paid for page 4 of the relativity reference there's something called tactical plan and it says tactical plan top
01:10:04 and it says tactical plan top operational contingency plan and there's site details is that the tactical plan that you printed off not the exact tactical plan because that copy we have there is the one that will
01:10:15 copy we have there is the one that will be again a station based level through the station diary so it's a desktop that's a desktop version that's it's very similar to one we can print off on the earth at that point in June 2017
01:10:28 the earth at that point in June 2017 years right if you go to the top of the document operational contingency plan plan name grenfell tower version one date effective from and we see 30
01:10:40 date effective from and we see 30 October 2009 and then date documented the same was was the version that you printed off in the mobile data terminal
01:10:51 printed off in the mobile data terminal the weight of the grenfell tire fire this version or was it an updated version
01:10:58 I won't be able to confirm that I would suggest it was that version but yeah okay well let's see if we can just go
01:11:09 okay well let's see if we can just go through the document seeing if seeing if what you see on the page here was what you had on the night or whether you what you had on the knife is more you'll see site details and you've got high-rise
01:11:21 site details and you've got high-rise block of flats 20 floors and there's the dimensions and life risks four hundred persons water supply hydrants and adjacent roads and then operational hazards glass planing and calendar
01:11:33 hazards glass planing and calendar effect do you remember seeing that on the night or did you have more information now I have a loop of eight you know I haven't remember printing
01:11:44 you know I haven't remember printing that document off but if I'm going to be on this that I don't have absolute clear recollection of boy every single piece of information I clean from from that
01:11:56 of information I clean from from that additional okay I'll grade off the appliance okay and if you go to the next page access you'll see primary entry gravel road and they will say by foot
01:12:09 gravel road and they will say by foot Bromley Road and then site access limited space for appliances first engine to call directly outside main entrance direct you remember seeing that on the mobile data terminal
01:12:30 I can't I can't confirm ever that's something like but I had it I can't remember specifically screwing down Internet to those areas and just just we tried a couple of other things
01:12:41 tried a couple of other things fireman's drop lift key opens main entrance door and all internal doors the ninety seconds should be should alarm deactivating all internal doors unlock do you remember on route seeing
01:12:52 do you remember on route seeing something about drop key
01:13:01 and then under enroute considerations you'll see the in the last sectional last box in the Box in the bigger box on reconsiderations you see this building
01:13:12 reconsiderations you see this building has a stay put policy do you remember seeing that on on the way to the Granville town fire that's not something
01:13:24 Granville town fire that's not something that I can remember it stands out and reticulum that I'm rope to to the file Grand Hotel because I think it's come on you've got you know you one route
01:13:36 you've got you know you one route considerations and I received the you know two bits of further traffic I feel control in terms of you know the additional price to make up make the pretty some attendants and yeah the
01:13:48 pretty some attendants and yeah the additional call we received the flat 16 and you know you focus sometimes can be taken away so that's the only reason why it may be that I haven't taken that information down because I had no
01:14:01 information down because I had no further traffic from the chops to deal with as well yes yeah really what I'm seeking to get a handle on mr. Durban is whether the document we're looking at here bears any relationship to what you remember of what you saw on the mobile
01:14:13 remember of what you saw on the mobile data terminal I can't presume that that that is as was on the night yes okay but if we find anything else than obviously also done thank you now in terms of
01:14:36 the usefulness of the information in the data in the mobile to in the date in the mobile data terminal can you in very brief terms tell me what you learned when you looked at it about the layout
01:14:51 when you looked at it about the layout and fire safety features of Grenfell tower prior to your arrival
01:15:03 I can't say that that moment point I learned anything if I'm honest you know I had hide a federalization visit a cream-filled tower nothing sticks out in
01:15:18 cream-filled tower nothing sticks out in my mind just from the met information from the hard either and DT though I had learned anything let me just test it a
01:15:31 learned anything let me just test it a little bit by asking you some specific questions and if you don't know you don't know did you learn anything from the mobile data terminal about the height of the building and the number of floors
01:15:40 floors I do remember from honest I through me that's why the things that have a vague remember in terms of the number of floors and the height the building that's something I did clean off the right did you learn anything about the
01:15:52 right did you learn anything about the nature of the evacuation plan for Grenfell tower that had been devised by the premises fire risk assessment or any other plan was that on the you asked
01:16:05 other plan was that on the you asked collapse on the MDT but i'm asking you whether but i'm asking you whether you learnt anything from the MDT about the nature of any evacuation plan for Grenville tower can't I learn anything
01:16:19 Grenville tower can't I learn anything because they don't think that information was from honest and available did you learn anything about who to talk to who to identify or contact as the responsible person
01:16:31 contact as the responsible person responsible for Grandville tower
01:16:42 not about married in time now
01:16:48 did you did the MDT information give you anything about evacuation routes or protected staircases do you remember mr.
01:17:04 protected staircases do you remember mr. chairman it's it's 3:30 and I never had one short break that's warm this afternoon absolute you have another well you're going to be moving on to other matters SI saket and you probably like a break as well
01:17:15 and you probably like a break as well mr. Dobbs mr. Issa right well we'll have a short break now take 10 minutes all right and be back here then if it were that 22 for
01:17:32 [Music]
01:17:43 you
01:28:40 I think mr. Darden's been being cold so we really just have to work around yes mr. chairman can I just say that I've been detecting that the witness is tired
01:28:52 been detecting that the witness is tired yeah he's been under a lot of pressure all day I think I would like to finish off a particular line with him but I would suggest if it's all right with you we finish at 4 o'clock well you you take
01:29:04 we finish at 4 o'clock well you you take your time but if we can finish slightly on the other side I think that would be a good thing
01:29:26 mr. cello just had information I think mister darden is not feeling they able to continue today oh really that is what I'm telling so I think in
01:29:37 that is what I'm telling so I think in fairness to him I think we would do would get more out of him if he would be able to serve us better if we were to stop now and resume tomorrow morning well it certainly didn't want to ask him
01:29:49 well it certainly didn't want to ask him to kill on if he's not able to do so mr. millet I've been becoming increasingly concerned during the course of day that
01:30:00 concerned during the course of day that mr. Darden is finding this a difficult exercise and I'm very conscious that we are about to get to that part of the story which he is likely to find most
01:30:12 story which he is likely to find most difficult to deal with yes and I'm asking you but through you those who are responsible for his welfare to consider
01:30:23 responsible for his welfare to consider whether giving evidence in this way is the best thing for him we need to have his evidence but we need to take whatever steps we can to ensure that he
01:30:36 whatever steps we can to ensure that he is as comfortable as possible and therefore able to give us the best evidence that he can it may be that we could make other arrangements they aren't in place at the moment but I
01:30:48 aren't in place at the moment but I think they could be put in place fairly quickly but I would need some guidance from others as to whether that is desirable and whether he would feel more
01:30:59 desirable and whether he would feel more comfortable doing that or not I'm very conscious of the fact that he is clearly an officer who takes his position very seriously and might not wish to give
01:31:12 seriously and might not wish to give evidence in another way he may feel that it's part of his duty to give evidence from the witness box in the ordinary way yes I wouldn't want to make an order about that without knowing what his own
01:31:24 about that without knowing what his own reaction
01:31:26 reaction but can I just raise that's a possibility and maybe those who are in touch with him could explore that possibility yes I didn't remind him as
01:31:37 possibility yes I didn't remind him as he left that he's not to talk to other people about his evidence but I make it clear though that he can talk to other people about the manner in which he gives evidence at the inquiry and I
01:31:48 gives evidence at the inquiry and I would welcome any assistance that I can be given on that front yes well help there I'm sure he'll be reminded of the requirement not to discuss his evidence with anybody overnight but in terms of the
01:31:59 overnight but in terms of the arrangements perhaps the best thing mr. chairman as if I speak to mr. Walsh will mr. C word about what arrangements can be made to get get the best take the
01:32:10 be made to get get the best take the best evidence from him we can during tomorrow yes it may be that we have a different arrangement we'll try and put that in place as fast as we can even I don't say I think it would help me if we could if you would have that conversation that as soon as possible
01:32:21 conversation that as soon as possible yes and and let me know what the outcome of it is because once I know that we can speak to the technical people and get any necessary changes put in place yes
01:32:33 any necessary changes put in place yes yes all right mr. chairman I think we'll will do that and take it take it from there can I ask that we at least notionally signal a start of 9:30 tomorrow morning again I'm conscious I
01:32:44 tomorrow morning again I'm conscious I got quite a lot of material still to go through with this witness yes and and just so that people understand it's not that we are being masochistic the problem we have with the firefighter witnesses is that they are they here in
01:32:58 witnesses is that they are they here in accordance with the rotor which is which has been agreed to fit in with their own professional rostering arrangements so we can't just change them in order to suit ourselves otherwise we shall
01:33:11 suit ourselves otherwise we shall interfere with London Fire Brigades arrangements so we do need to try and keep up to schedule and I think for that reason it's wise to start a bit earlier
01:33:23 reason it's wise to start a bit earlier tomorrow and possibly the day after we'll see how we go and if we have an early into the afternoon we shall done quite as badly as we would otherwise have done so I'm going to rise now and say that I'll sit again at
01:33:35 now and say that I'll sit again at half-past nine tomorrow and we're resuming mr. Darden yes thank you very much
01:33:49 you