Michael Dowden (Watch Manager B, North Kensington red watch) gives evidence as the first incident commander at Grenfell. Admits he had never seen GRA 3.2 before the inquiry, had no practical training on high-rise fire fighting external spread, and only knew of using ground monitors 'in theory'. Describes training gaps on combustible materials in voids.
00:00:00 good morning everyone welcome to this hearing and because we're starting rather early as unusual we'll take one slightly longer break during the middle of the morning somewhere around 11 o'clock 11:15 all
00:00:12 somewhere around 11 o'clock 11:15 all right yes with it mr. chairman I'm going to start before we get to mr. Darden's evidence very briefly by just reading
00:00:23 evidence very briefly by just reading into the record if I may that three documents which I should have read into the record on Thursday but in my enthusiasm I didn't and they're all
00:00:34 enthusiasm I didn't and they're all dated the 14th of June 2017 and they are CCTV images of flat 16 occupants leaving the tower which have been selected from
00:00:46 the tower which have been selected from footage by the inquiry and their references are inq six zeros 55 22 and 43 respectively thank you so I now call
00:01:00 43 respectively thank you so I now call mr. Downton
00:01:04 I do Somaly sincerely and truly I do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and declare and affirm that the evidence I
00:01:16 declare and affirm that the evidence I shall evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:01:26 the truth thank you very much you stand or sit as you find it most comfortable and convenient thanks Anne if you get fed up standing at some point just take a seat mr. davon if you want to sit then we can
00:01:38 mr. davon if you want to sit then we can we can remove the lectern in front of you to make it more comfortable community mr. Darden good morning could you please give the inquiry your full name please it's Michael Thomas Alden first thank
00:01:51 it's Michael Thomas Alden first thank you very much for coming to give evidence today and to assist the inquiry with its investigations I want you to know that it is very much appreciated my questions are supposed to be short and
00:02:04 questions are supposed to be short and simple but if you have difficulty understanding anything that I'm asking you please don't hesitate just to ask me to repeat the question which are will I'll put it in a different way which
00:02:15 I'll put it in a different way which organic of course I will if you feel you need a break at any point then just let the Chairman or me know there's no harm in that could I just ask you before you start to keep
00:02:26 just ask you before you start to keep your voice up so that everybody in the room can hear you and the transcribers who are sitting to your right there can hear you as well what I'm going to do is
00:02:37 hear you as well what I'm going to do is to say you nose to work with you from two files a thin file which you'll have in front of you which is your statement and its exhibits and your contemporaneous notes and a bigger
00:02:48 contemporaneous notes and a bigger master documents file and also a separate file of policies but don't worry because everything I'm going to ask you about will come on the screens the first a the first
00:02:59 on the screens the first a the first time I go to a document I give it what we call a relativity number which is a long number so that everybody can find it later but after I've referred to it once that I'm not going to go to that
00:03:11 once that I'm not going to go to that number again I'll just refer to the document or its tab in the in the bundle could you please first take your statement that you'll find in the thin bundle in front of you at tab one and
00:03:24 bundle in front of you at tab one and that is met triple zero one zero nine one five and you should also have them is to Darden the contemporaneous notes at met quadruple zero five four five
00:03:35 at met quadruple zero five four five three and five four five four which in your file should just be behind it that's correct and is your statement dated the 23rd of February 2018 that's
00:03:49 dated the 23rd of February 2018 that's correct
00:03:50 correct what documents or other material did you have available to you when you made this statement believer just knock on Sempronius notes just two contemporaneous notes have you read this
00:04:02 contemporaneous notes have you read this statement recently yes but can you confirm for the inquiry that its contents are true yes I can thank you have you discussed your statement all your evidence with anybody before coming
00:04:14 your evidence with anybody before coming here today to give evidence no thank you very much can we start just by examining your career could you give me a summary
00:04:25 your career could you give me a summary of short summary of your career with the London Fire Brigade to date yeah in June 2003
00:04:31 2003 I joined another fire brigade and from that period I complete a four month training course vermin at been summer training center which ended in roughly about November
00:04:44 which ended in roughly about November from that initial phase one development I was posted to felt and blue watch as a trainee firefighter for approximately
00:04:55 trainee firefighter for approximately about four years I was in the role of firefighter and I took a temporary promotion to crew manager and that was on the red watch physical fire station I
00:05:07 on the red watch physical fire station I then got promoted substantive into the role of crew manager cheesy bread watch and I believe in about 2009 2010 my took
00:05:19 and I believe in about 2009 2010 my took a temperate motion as a watch manager to sir Burton pretty much I went through a development process there and then was successful in becoming a suspensive
00:05:30 successful in becoming a suspensive watch manager I was posted for a very short amount of time to begin he'll read watch I spent I think month for two
00:05:41 watch I spent I think month for two months at big in he'll read watch and then I was posted back to serve it and really watch where in February of 2015 I was promoted to my current role water
00:05:53 was promoted to my current role water manager be where I was posted to my current posting of alpha 27th north kensington red watch towing the service up to the point of 14th of June about 14
00:06:05 up to the point of 14th of June about 14 years service yes thank you very much so just to summarize your role north kensington you derived at North Kensington in February 2015 as watchman
00:06:17 Kensington in February 2015 as watchman and be at red in red watch as correct and that was your role was it on the night of the fire on the 14th of June 2017 that's correct yes
00:06:27 and so most of your career as a firefighter was spent in South London South yep yes and as a watch manager would you expect to be incident
00:06:38 would you expect to be incident commander if you were the first at the scene the first watch manager at the scene if I was the first watch manager in scene I was the highest ranking officer yes I would assume the relevance the commander is correct and would you remain incident commander
00:06:53 and would you remain incident commander during the early stages of the fire yeah generally for watch manager be you your role so in terms of its of come on we'll go up to a full pump of appliances
00:07:05 go up to a full pump of appliances anything beyond that will then move up the ranks in terms of station manager group manager that can vary in terms of obviously availability of offices and
00:07:16 obviously availability of offices and kicking into an Instagram but generally I'll only charge of a full pump fire right but you might well is this is it the case that you might well remain an incident commander in the early stages
00:07:27 incident commander in the early stages of the fire even if even in those early stages that fire turned out to be serious and extensive it can be depending on how the resources can get to Instagram yes yeah could you just
00:07:38 to Instagram yes yeah could you just help me explain the difference between watch manager a and watch manager be the sole difference is the personnel that you're in charge of and also the number of prices so for a watch manager a so I
00:07:53 of prices so for a watch manager a so I just pause the moment yes this or it seemed to go for feedback maybe me I don't know so for watching manager a you will be in charge of the one appliance station and if watch measure B you'll be
00:08:06 station and if watch measure B you'll be in charge of two two fire engines or more of a multiple client station and also you you will be in charge of personnel as well so the only real difference is in terms of the on the fire ground we have the same role the
00:08:19 fire ground we have the same role the same some
00:08:20 same some as it's a commander but it's just at station base level you'll be in charge of as a watch going to be two or more appliances what's manager a you'll be at a single ply station right say a mobile advisory
00:08:31 ply station right say a mobile advisory right in thinking that a watch manager B as a more responsible role going to the more experienced firefighter not in the fire ground though not on the fire ground on the fire ground watch commander a and what's going to be will
00:08:43 commander a and what's going to be will have the same responsibilities on the fire ground and you mentioned red watch could you just explain the the different colors yeah so we've in London Fire Brigade we adopt for watches so we have red watch
00:08:55 adopt for watches so we have red watch which which I'm currently on we have blue watch white watch and green watch so at any one time during a night period or a day time period one of those watches will be on duty and is there any
00:09:06 watches will be on duty and is there any any difference in functions between the different colors of watch no no it's just a way of managing the branches there's no different functionality between those watches they all have anyone stationed there with the same
00:09:18 anyone stationed there with the same skills on any one of those watches yeah right because in your career you say you joined a lot of dread watches no no I've been on different watch faces i from Yavin blue grads green throughout my
00:09:31 Yavin blue grads green throughout my career event in the London Fire Brigade oh right now you say in your statement at the bottom of page one I am classed as competent in my rollers watch manager that's correct
00:09:45 watch manager that's correct could you explain what being classed as competent means for any phase of your career as a firefighter London Fire Brigade where we've from being a firefighter watch manager station mode
00:09:57 firefighter watch manager station mode you have to pass somewhat across development phase and now it's facilitated over a period of time where you have to sort of prove from evidence whether that's submitted evidence direct
00:10:08 whether that's submitted evidence direct observation and that's facilitated through something called electronic personal development record which makes it allows the authority document that over a period of time you have proved that you are competent within your role
00:10:19 that you are competent within your role to be promoted to a substantive I'm a firefighter crew module watch mind 11 are there any other classes of ability rather and other than competent we you
00:10:31 rather and other than competent we you also can assume they're all temporary so if you're a firefighter the have the operations to become an officer in the future or again a crew manager on the
00:10:42 future or again a crew manager on the further their officer role then we have something classed as temporary where you take up a position on a temporary basis so you don't you're not prove this competent but you are a temporary in that temporary well and when were you
00:10:54 that temporary well and when were you last classed as competent my last would have been when I joined the watch minds based game for most manager I to watch
00:11:05 based game for most manager I to watch my to be I promote promoted and now being last house I've proved competent yeah and when was that that really febrile 2015 and can you explain what
00:11:20 febrile 2015 and can you explain what training to be a watch manager involved
00:11:25 when you initially get promoted from any role that from a crew manager to what's made a role go into a development phase and within that development phase you'll have initial east of command course when
00:11:39 have initial east of command course when I got promoted and to know what's major role that was facilitated for fire service college and then you went in there for a week which is something more than the marsh and you run from a range
00:11:50 than the marsh and you run from a range of incidents and potential ability to operate at a watch manager level so then you come back from that week of your input at the fire service college
00:12:02 your input at the fire service college and then following that you would have a number of the coordinates or block options so and that will be how to manage teams major performance sort of a
00:12:13 manage teams major performance sort of a bit bit more how to run a fire station if I'm honest and that's that's all one backup before you you don't you develop a stage once you've done those those courses then you have to go into a this development phase of your promotion to
00:12:26 development phase of your promotion to prove your competency within the role right and who delivers the initial watch manager training the London Fire Brigades deliver that that has changed
00:12:37 Brigades deliver that that has changed when I went open for my promotion it was the 5k to facilitate internally its own training since then we have outsourced that's Babcock I mean now now Babcock do or rather training so that's
00:12:49 Babcock do or rather training so that's officer training firefighter training refresher training right and you say in your statement that you did a refresher course every two years yeah isn't that that's correct again that's facilitated century from
00:13:00 again that's facilitated century from the London Fire Brigade training department and it's called a supervisory management instant refresher course when there has charting that slight changes flavor over the last couple years we
00:13:11 flavor over the last couple years we used to go to fire service college but now that Babcock provided our training we do that sites internally along the
00:13:22 we do that sites internally along the fire brigade than that as facilitate generally for is to command refresher courses that's a Harrow fire station they've got training center there and that's done by a simulation so you go
00:13:34 that's done by a simulation so you go into a room and you'll be giving different scenarios and working computer-based training package right and
00:13:45 okay and your most recent refresher course prior to the grenfell tower fire when was that one guys give you specific on a date to
00:14:01 one guys give you specific on a date to that question unfortunately it would have been in certainly been a minimum of two year period before going for the tower because that's that's the the minute time every two years you have to ever a refresher course on that
00:14:12 ever a refresher course on that so say after you joined read watch at North Kansas I would have had one between the time I joined in 2015 my resume to the fire on the 14th of June
00:14:23 resume to the fire on the 14th of June and and was that refresher training based on a standardized course yes do you know who designed the course no idea is there a handbook or a guide that you
00:14:35 is there a handbook or a guide that you used when you did the training remember I hand over you gets you get sent through the called joining your structures and within there this and
00:14:47 structures and within there this and course details policies and procedures you may need for this course but I can't remember them being giving us of handbook did the refresher course that
00:14:58 handbook did the refresher course that you did post February 15 involve high-rise fire fighting
00:15:08 I think the last one I did was when I it was based at Harrow so is this computer-based training package I think I did go through a high rise Basin area yes and how would you have done that who
00:15:20 yes and how would you have done that who say it's computer-based has taught me through the you walking so bit of the training walk into a room and screen in front of you and you have a trainer and basically we the Train will facilitate
00:15:33 basically we the Train will facilitate different roles and they have the facility to input different images of it's a movement package so it's a live package and they can put residents they can put fire spray their complete
00:15:46 can put fire spray their complete different officers and there's no there's no audio the the trainer that if you in the incident growl in the pod or facilitate those roles and you will have
00:15:57 facilitate those roles and you will have other officers in the room as well who may facilitate other roles take messages and or timelines on the whiteboard that's in the room as well you mentioned that computer facilitated images and you mentioned also fire
00:16:09 images and you mentioned also fire spread yeah can you remember what the training involves so far as concerned fire spread
00:16:19 it it'll give you the bet be the tools to be able to walk through and guide yourself through a an escalating incident of some description
00:16:31 incident of some description not just place the high-rise it could be RTC hazmat incident different types of building fires compartment fires different transport incidents right just
00:16:42 different transport incidents right just being a little bit slower there yeah RTC so big part of road traffic collision road traffic collision and hazmat I think I can understand it's a serious so any is the default it has a
00:16:53 serious so any is the default it has a hazardous material yeah thank you and what specific training did you ever receive for the role of incident commander again that would be facilitated
00:17:04 facilitated through an issue when you go from firefighter to crew manager there's a there's a big change in in what you have to train to do in terms of from fire
00:17:17 to train to do in terms of from fire five to an officer so you again through the different options prior to your development stage you would give an input into the command reference set back into its of command policy and at
00:17:29 back into its of command policy and at the time when I went from firefighter to crew manager the training was still run out suburb training center and there was the use of command training team at that time right you mentioned policies I am
00:17:44 time right you mentioned policies I am going to ask you some detailed questions about policies later but can I ask you now
00:17:49 now and whether you're familiar or you were trained to be familiar with certain standing policies of the lfb did your training or refresher course cover lfb
00:18:01 training or refresher course cover lfb policy for 3/1 which is about incident command and we just saw the if we put it up on the screen i'll give the reference it's it's tab 11 of the policies bundle and it's lfb three six zeros forty-eight
00:18:16 and it's lfb three six zeros forty-eight if we can just have the first page just to refresh your memory mr. dad I mean we for memory don't have the
00:18:28 I mean we for memory don't have the policies to handle in refresher training but they would have referred to that policy yes right sake I take it that you were familiar from your training with the contents of this policy yes yeah thank you
00:18:39 thank you and what about policy number two 3/8 which is incident command procedures which is tab one and just for the record it's lfb five zeros one six four that's
00:18:55 it's lfb five zeros one six four that's policy two three eight there on the screen
00:18:57 screen mr. Dudley were you familiar with that as well yes right I'm going to come back to those I just wanted to make sure you you knew but I'm just I was talking about that's very helpful can I turn to the topic of high-rise
00:19:08 can I turn to the topic of high-rise fire fighting as at June 2017 how would you describe your knowledge and experience of high-rise firefighting policy a fairly robust
00:19:21 policy a fairly robust sounding of the policy itself yes okay as at June 2017 had you ever heard of generic ristic risk assessment and GRA
00:19:32 generic ristic risk assessment and GRA 3.2 published by government in February 2014 and not happen let me just see if you could identify it as a document it
00:19:44 you could identify it as a document it could you please throw up on the screen mr. trial director that policy which i think is in tab six sorry tap seven it's n FP triple zero one two five five
00:20:16 so there it is on the screen mr. dadandan and then you say you haven't heard of it this might refresh your memory if it doesn't it doesn't have you ever seen this document not pre to
00:20:28 ever seen this document not pre to twitch to the team have you seen it since
00:20:31 since yes whenever you see that when do you see it after June 17 the last time I saw that was a couple of weeks ago and I can still commander's briefing an incident
00:20:43 still commander's briefing an incident commanders brief yes a couple of weeks ago yes
00:20:45 ago yes where was that I was at Union Street a Union Street yes who gave the briefing it was facilitated by Gary reason and what's his role he is helping you have
00:20:58 what's his role he is helping you have been internally in terms of the grateful town investigation I see and who was that briefing given - it was - from the
00:21:10 that briefing given - it was - from the Institute commanders and the key decision-makers of Grand Hotel I see did you play a part in that briefing but did you play a part in that briefing yes do you know whether there
00:21:24 briefing yes do you know whether there are any is there as a report or any documents which show what happened at that briefing I don't know you know if I wanted to find out what had happened to that briefing who would I ask
00:21:36 that briefing who would I ask I'm a pushing carry a reason right I'm sorry his name should be familiar to me but it isn't but is it reason as in reason I believe significant thank you
00:21:48 reason I believe significant thank you I'm going to ask some questions about this policy at mr. Dan but if you don't know the answer then tell me can I ask you please first to pay turn to page 8
00:22:00 you please first to pay turn to page 8 of this document
00:22:05 internally pager which is 8:10 in the relativity reference and look please first of all at the read title or
00:22:21 first of all at the read title or heading halfway down construction technique any building under construction may provide additional hazards as the partitions doors or fire protection measures may not yet be installed timber frame construction can
00:22:34 installed timber frame construction can be vulnerable to rapid fire spread or collapse during the construction phase and then it says this combustible material in voids and cavities and poor quality construction can also contribute to the spread of fire and smoke beyond
00:22:48 to the spread of fire and smoke beyond the compartment of origin having showed you that my question is where you were where that this statement was part of policy
00:23:03 where you trained in annual training as watch manager and incident command procedures to be aware that a
00:23:15 procedures to be aware that a combustible material in voids and cavities and poor quality construction can also contribute to the spread of fire smoke beyond the compartment of origin were you trained to look for that
00:23:36 I've been I've been trained to therefore sign up sentences of smokes bread and you know fire coming out of compartment and breaching the compartment of origin
00:23:48 in a high-rise places I know Antonio number five grape I've not seen it in that in that document they have format before that all right well we will come back to that in documents that you might
00:23:59 back to that in documents that you might be more familiar with as we go through could you please next turn to page eleven internally well actually before I do sorry page nine the next page so I'll
00:24:11 do sorry page nine the next page so I'll just pick this up with you if I can as we go through just below halfway down let's see
00:24:16 let's see heading in black fire behavior and development and underneath that in red capitals fire and smoke spread fire and smoke in high-rise buildings can spread in an upward downward or horizontal
00:24:28 in an upward downward or horizontal direction and this may be more rapid and less predictable than other in other building types the question is were you aware that that was part of policy yes
00:24:42 aware that that was part of policy yes and were you trained to look for that
00:24:49 I'm so yes and what did that training involve if I'm honest it's probably that will be
00:25:00 I'm honest it's probably that will be facilitated more so through a theory session from for us station based level 2 for me as needs to come on particular to look at that and reference a policy
00:25:13 there's no more I understand I haven't begin needs of practical training in terms of how to have to deal with that and any practical application it's more of a sort of a theory based
00:25:25 it's more of a sort of a theory based session in terms of how your tactics would how many attack in control day that happened tell me a little bit more about the theory what what theory were
00:25:37 about the theory what what theory were you trained to apply I mean like remember reference in our policy in telling NFP policy is that that can
00:25:48 telling NFP policy is that that can happen and generally if a fire breaks out of a compartment this is not just Pacific to hire wised and we do something called a covering jet but it does reference in our eyes policy that
00:25:59 does reference in our eyes policy that the use of a monitor see to try and stop the spread of external fire spread on a high rise pyrus building I've never done
00:26:11 high rise pyrus building I've never done that I never actually take down a practical training session so the theory so you're taken is this fair that you'll take away from the theory training you had was that where there is fire and
00:26:25 had was that where there is fire and smoke spread in high-rise buildings which breaks out the compartment you would apply a ground monitor and fight the fire from the exterior so your training in theory I mean in theory if
00:26:37 training in theory I mean in theory if if it's not uncommon and I have been on a couple of instance where fire has broken out the compartment and there is it does happen where the fire may travel
00:26:48 it does happen where the fire may travel trying to travel up for those but generally you looking at one two three floors so the expectations also that we fight that internally so we can fight fire internally to the extent well we're
00:27:00 fire internally to the extent well we're going to come back to that I'm sure you can imagine it later on let's just go through this policy a little bit more could you please turn to page page eleven internally and the head of the
00:27:16 eleven internally and the head of the page top of the page it says firefighting and rescue operations and just a quarter of the way down it says evacuation of buildings in capital letters in red there and I just
00:27:30 capital letters in red there and I just want to show you the third paragraph down which says in addition the occupants may not be aware and you see
00:27:41 occupants may not be aware and you see that in addition the occupants may not be aware of the buildings evacuation strategy or in the case of many residential buildings a stay put policy may be in place this is based on the concept of secured compartment ation of
00:27:53 concept of secured compartment ation of fires just pausing there again was that part of policy something you were
00:28:05 part of policy something you were trained to be aware of
00:28:13 yes I was aware the statement policy and reference to compartment ation yes what did the stay-put policy mean to you type of policy my interpretation is its
00:28:28 of policy my interpretation is its difficulty it's a policy that you know I understand it's more of a strategy it's more of the NFP doesn't have a policy of it is something to be borne out of that the way of buildings should behave in in a file now
00:28:39 a file now generally if we get a fire we're in a high-rise building and flat it shouldn't we have a certain minute time 60 minutes in terms of that confrontation and it
00:28:50 in terms of that confrontation and it should contain that flavor in that compartment ation the policy refers to that if they need to apparently the property and if their flats on fire by by all means and it's safe to do so
00:29:01 by all means and it's safe to do so leave the property and also the people on that floor people below or above that component ation or that flat should be safe enough to remain within their
00:29:12 safe enough to remain within their property and not be affected by the products of smoke heat or fire travel that would I ever change if the flats or the communal areas will become involved
00:29:23 the communal areas will become involved in fire heat or smoke travel and then they would be devised to leave their property if it's safe to do so okay thank you very much I understand that we're going to examine I think that
00:29:34 we're going to examine I think that understanding you had it later on try and unpack it a bit but for the time being let's let's leave that where it is mr. Duncan we just look together at the next paragraph incident commanders must
00:29:47 next paragraph incident commanders must consider both the effect of firefighting tactics on the evacuation of occupants and conversely the effect of evacuation on tactics if for example and I'll read the whole paragraph if for example a
00:29:59 the whole paragraph if for example a building's evacuation plan includes the use of lifts by occupants there may be an impact on the availability of fire lifts for use by fire and rescue personnel and then this the need to assist with the evacuation of occupants
00:30:10 assist with the evacuation of occupants can divert personnel away from the tasks that they were briefed to undertake this can have an adverse effect on the incident commanders plan and resourcing for the incident now there's a lot of
00:30:21 for the incident now there's a lot of information in that paragraph my question is a simple one were you aware as at June 2017 that the matters set out there were part of national
00:30:32 set out there were part of national firefighting policy yes and next question were you trained at all in how to understand and apply what is in that
00:30:44 to understand and apply what is in that policy yep I would have been Driftless into the farmgate policy there was a theory based theory on that how we can
00:30:57 theory based theory on that how we can facilitate evacuation of residents yes and what is what was that what was the theory in which you were trained it depends on the building so generally if
00:31:09 depends on the building so generally if we need to evacuate residents the ideal thing in a high-rise block would have to two staircases so we can facilitate one as a rescue staircase and one of the firefighter staircase and
00:31:20 and one of the firefighter staircase and the cases were like ground filled tower that only had one can your staircase it would be very difficult to facilitate evacuate some residents when we've got fire fighters and equipment going up
00:31:32 fire fighters and equipment going up it's the same staircase as well and that references back into this type of policy why why that is it will be implemented did you receive any practical training
00:31:43 did you receive any practical training on there how to consider the effects of firefighting tactics on the evacuation of occupants not in telepathic application now and what about the other way around which practical training on
00:31:54 way around which practical training on the effect of evacuation on tactics did you get any practical training on that
00:32:02 not it's more of a for me as an instant commander it would be discussion at a local level or watch base level in terms of how that would be facilitated you may
00:32:13 of how that would be facilitated you may it can be facilitating I have spoke about it before when we go to familiarize ation visits and that's something that you may well talk about is okay if there's a double standard single staircase and that's when you
00:32:26 single staircase and that's when you again have a good discussion at the exterior lies a tional visits in terms of how to facilitate that sort of rescue operation okay thank you a couple but again probably come back to that a little bit more detail later on if you
00:32:38 little bit more detail later on if you could please then turn to page 19
00:32:44 internally of this document we will get back and look at earlier pages when we come to the topics on them but just on training at the moment and what to ask you about the last quarter of this page
00:32:58 you about the last quarter of this page starting with word the word training at the bottom their training which will cover high-rises and incidents must include and then do you see there are some bullet points I just want to ask
00:33:11 some bullet points I just want to ask you about the first and second bullet point um the first bullet point says high-rise incidents must include the development of knowledge skills and understanding for firefighters on the
00:33:23 understanding for firefighters on the impact of fire on the building's construction layout contents and occupant behavior and my question is did you receive training on those matters
00:33:43 again no sort of practical impetus ILIT ated at from a local level workstation to to reference that through policy and then again when we are out on highways
00:33:58 then again when we are out on highways blocks in particular and facilitate bring your ization visit right okay I'm sorry about this mr. Dutton and there may be repeating that via question over and over again just from slightly different angles but can you can you
00:34:09 different angles but can you can you give me an idea of how were what the theoretical training on those matters the development of knowledge skills and understanding about the impact of fire on the building's construction layout
00:34:20 on the building's construction layout and contents and occupant behavior what was the theoretical content of the training you got
00:34:37 I think it they were coming to playing a couple of policies from in terms of the building's construction you know that would be facilitate maybe within a
00:34:48 would be facilitate maybe within a familiarization visit again right looking at construction of the building was built of layout again not because
00:35:00 was built of layout again not because it's a through a familiarization visit occupied behavior don't know if they certainly will triangle an occupied behavior that's something that you would have to preempt as an innocent commander
00:35:12 have to preempt as an innocent commander I suppose making from previous experience unpacking that a bit more who how did you get taught to understand the
00:35:24 how did you get taught to understand the buildings and instruction and layout and contents you don't really talk about the Pacific individual buildings it's more
00:35:36 Pacific individual buildings it's more they with a reference back into policy more of a generic overview of of these are things to look out for when when you're in these buildings and that's just not reference it to our eyes that's any familiarize ation visit we do if
00:35:49 any familiarize ation visit we do if there's a special Memphis construction that potentially could I'd fire spread if they're involved in fire how that would if they could fail there's no no
00:36:05 would if they could fail there's no no a little training practical terms about how you apply that listen say of any particular building what would you be
00:36:17 particular building what would you be taught to look for specifically of a high-rise building in relation to its construction and layout I wouldn't say
00:36:28 construction and layout I wouldn't say you're taught to look for anything in terms of construction of a high-rise and it's more for for me as its kind of firefighters how respond operationally equipment tackling the fire resourcing
00:36:44 equipment tackling the fire resourcing suppose the only way again that could be facilitated isn't for these familiarization visits and we could have different systems and process within the fiber gate that can help us document that right were you taught to look at
00:37:00 that right were you taught to look at any particular buildings construction or layout in in detail or was it you just left to your own devices on these familiarization visits yeah you don't as
00:37:12 familiarization visits yeah you don't as a watch officer watch mine you are that that's down to for you to facilitate go into these buildings and through policy reference it and you know from your understanding of okay what that building
00:37:24 understanding of okay what that building this construction is it gonna be an issue to firefighters when they're attacking fires I don't recall if I've had any sort of acidic training in terms of following reference at back to policy now right take a look at the next bullet
00:37:37 now right take a look at the next bullet point down effective call handling and management of any fast survival guidance calls this includes the recording passing and acting on information from control to the incident did you receive training in those matters
00:37:53 me either I there is a policy to cover that again we're done it's not something that century done by the land the fire brigade that will be down to the officers of a fire station to to
00:38:06 officers of a fire station to to facilitate training of particular policy to to reference that bullet point yeah but did you get training in those matters you didn't I facilitate the
00:38:17 matters you didn't I facilitate the training at my local level station place level so you give the training yes have you had any training on how to give the training no right so how do you know what to teach people through spirits
00:38:30 what to teach people through spirits past experiences research on the policy
00:38:38 and is that to your knowledge general across the London Fire Brigade yes well you're only a watch officer expectation is you you have that knowledge the
00:38:50 is you you have that knowledge the experience to be able to provide training but we we aren't as such given a basis of how to Train that's your expectation when you're on either side
00:39:01 expectation when you're on either side well we'll come back to that again like sent so many of these questions I'm asking you the moment when we look at specific policies in the context of specific events can I ask you next please to turn to
00:39:12 can I ask you next please to turn to page 20 and right in the middle of the page you'll see a list of bullet points there I should just tell you that this
00:39:24 there I should just tell you that this is this is the follow-on from the bullet points we were looking at earlier so this is about training and what it must include and if you look in the middle of the page 20 that the fourth bullet point up from the end can you see it says
00:39:37 up from the end can you see it says evacuation and casualty removal tactics incident commanders should understand when a partial or full evacuation strategy might become necessary in a residential building where a staple
00:39:49 residential building where a staple policy is normally in place my question is did you receive any training in those matters
00:40:05 mayors of watch ah person no but again it is something that is the expectation through policy that we should have an understanding of how to train a local level wash base level how to apply that
00:40:17 level wash base level how to apply that in an operational scenario so you weren't trained in those matters but you were expected to use that draw on your experience to pass on those matters
00:40:29 experience to pass on those matters evacuation of casual to your median tactics to your men might work and that experience will come from previous training policy from operational experience that's correct yeah and is
00:40:40 experience that's correct yeah and is the training that you pass on in those matters are being specific evacuation and casualty removal tactics is the training that you pass on put together formally by you know that there is there
00:40:58 formally by you know that there is there is I say there's no there is no state but policies on the fogger I don't have a statement policy the the reference to that would be our own internal high walls fire fire policy well there'll be reference to see that and that there is
00:41:09 reference to see that and that there is there is no formal training package computer-based training package on the statement policy because it did say it doesn't exist okay but just looking at the matters in this bullet point which
00:41:22 the matters in this bullet point which national policy says must be covered by training when you're training your men do you do it from a document or some materials that you've prepared it will
00:41:33 materials that you've prepared it will be from a it will be from a prepared train package or policy from the London Fire Brigade oh I see so the lumbago prepared the training then you deliveries yes so I may not necessarily
00:41:45 deliveries yes so I may not necessarily go through from start to finish with the policy because what I would do is sort of the theory session is we have a whiteboard and we'll go through how we would you know on arrival tactics our
00:41:57 would you know on arrival tactics our high-rise incident again I'm a familiar ization visits just when were there just have a conversation with the firefighters okay if we were to have an image that at this tower block or even if we do familiar ization it's a number
00:42:10 if we do familiar ization it's a number of risks and premises within the London Fire Brigade but yeah that's how that would be facilitated okay so just so I
00:42:21 would be facilitated okay so just so I understand it in terms of the training on the matters that's covered matters that are covered in this bullet point mister dunne I think what you're saying to me correct me if I got this wrong is that you're not trained yourself but you
00:42:34 that you're not trained yourself but you deliver training to your men through a package that's designed by the London Fire Brigade not just to mentor my firefighters yes yes yeah that's what like yeah forgive me quite right absolutely and that's done
00:42:47 quite right absolutely and that's done on a white board it is their only practical training training that you deliver to your firefighters on those matters I was about there something that
00:42:59 matters I was about there something that I personally did it practical we we did do which facilitating in February 2016 which was an area of training package
00:43:10 which was an area of training package that was facilitated at Hammersmith fire station whereas there was three super strains to it there was a practical high-rise drill which facilitated enhancement fire station we do have sort
00:43:24 enhancement fire station we do have sort of train towers we don't have anything to replicate a high-rise building where we can actually train on their London Fire Brigade then we did it what we call a tactical decision exercise where I was
00:43:36 a tactical decision exercise where I was a commander and again you sort of put for a different series of questions under pressure I was into commander in different rooms they
00:43:48 into commander in different rooms they were different roles being facilitated by watch members whether that would be firefighters people in the bridgehead and the trainer's would again facilitate different roles women Oh responsible
00:43:59 different roles women Oh responsible people of the building residents casualties so yeah that that's that's the experience we've had in terms of references to that point just before
00:44:12 of references to that point just before I leave this bullet point coming back to it it says incident commanders should understand when a partial or full evacuation strategy might become necessary in a residential building
00:44:23 necessary in a residential building where a staple policy is nearly in place so this is directed at what an insolent commander should understand and just so that I've got it what training did you ever receive as an incident commander in
00:44:37 ever receive as an incident commander in how you understand those matters
00:44:57 because is a commander of a comb remember a ton I'd actually been on a training course that will facilitate that did anyone give you any helpful
00:45:09 that did anyone give you any helpful advice in understanding when it might be necessary to have a full evacuation things to look out for or was it just and your personal experience individual
00:45:27 back into our own enterprise policy and particularly maybe Iraq you know when compartment ation fails etc don't think
00:45:38 compartment ation fails etc don't think I've been describing into the in a training environment where that's at the reference is it mister darman did you ever receive any training in the
00:45:49 did you ever receive any training in the evacuation of people from high floors in high-rise blocks who might have mobility difficulties
00:46:01 again not for a practical application now just be through theory-based scenario in terms of you know I'm aware that there are refugees but in Gerry
00:46:13 that there are refugees but in Gerry that's not your residential buildings that's only commercial premises what about the elderly more children is the
00:46:25 about the elderly more children is the same answer it's not our policy refer brief refers to doesn't make any differentiation between elderly or young children young young people so just say
00:46:39 children young young people so just say that I'm really clear and I'm sorry to repeat the question is the answer to my question
00:46:43 question know that you didn't receive training in the evacuation of persons from high floors in high-rise blocks I mean it certainly would be a consideration as an incident commander because generally you
00:46:56 incident commander because generally you know non ambulance whether having disabilities or due to illness or age or to younger of younger people it's going to be slightly different to a sort of able-bodied or an adult person who with
00:47:08 able-bodied or an adult person who with no disabilities or illnesses I understand that it may be a consideration but my question is did you ever receive any specific training on brown to evacuate people from high
00:47:20 brown to evacuate people from high floors in high-rise blocks who had mobility derivatives not like a recruitment act and the same would apply to the elderly and to children not you know arise with natural
00:47:35 children not you know arise with natural buildings not right can I ask you them please to turn on to page 28 in this same policy and I'm going to ask you to
00:47:50 same policy and I'm going to ask you to look with me together at the top of this page which has three paragraphs and I'm going to ask you about the second
00:48:01 going to ask you about the second paragraph but I need you to look with me please at the first end of third the first paragraph says the responsible person which is a defined term for these premises types needs also to comply with
00:48:14 premises types needs also to comply with the provisions of the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005 and if necessary have a suitable emergency evacuation plan a management strategy and maintenance procedures in place
00:48:25 maintenance procedures in place identified through their fire risk assessment process that's the context but just pick up the word suitable emergency evacuation plan and then it
00:48:36 emergency evacuation plan and then it says the incident commander should follow the evacuation plan devised as part of the premises fire risk assessment when known unless the fire situation dictates otherwise and then it
00:48:51 situation dictates otherwise and then it says whereas they put policy is in place it should be safe for occupants to remain within their own property in the event of a fire elsewhere in the building occupants if they are able to should self evacuate when the fire heat
00:49:02 should self evacuate when the fire heat or smoke is adversely affecting them in their property this may be as the result of a fire that has started in their own property or from elsewhere in the building and then the third paragraph says it should be noted that not all
00:49:13 says it should be noted that not all high-rise residential buildings are designed or have been maintained to have a stay put policy in place now and rent a really great big chunk of text to hear aloud so that you understand it like my
00:49:24 aloud so that you understand it like my question it's just it's more focused if we look together at the words in the second paragraph the incident commander should follow the evacuation plan devised as part of the premises fire
00:49:35 devised as part of the premises fire risk assessment when unless the fire situation dictates otherwise let's want to look at that sentence and my question there is did
00:49:46 sentence and my question there is did you ever receive any training as an incident commander as to how to follow the evacuation plan devised as part of the premises fire risk assessment
00:50:10 I can recall no no
00:50:16 were you aware that policy required you to have such training eyewear is referenced in in policy but I mean this
00:50:33 referenced in in policy but I mean this again something like that maybe I only come to like when you visit these these premises
00:50:38 premises if you speak to a responsible person
00:50:42 generally they may well have in communal areas that what their policies on that if it's a stay put policy it's my
00:50:54 if it's a stay put policy it's my understanding that most high-rise box would it would implement that type of policy the only time that changes I believe is if it will be a shared accommodation so that's for reference if
00:51:07 accommodation so that's for reference if that meant to last two questions ago if that was early people's homes or short accommodations if there was one of honorable people in there they may not
00:51:18 honorable people in there they may not have dr. stateman policy it sounds as if and got you to comment in this it sounds as if you were taught a lot about what
00:51:30 as if you were taught a lot about what the policy contains but weren't trained specifically and how to implement parts of the policy certainly the possibly been looking at would that be fair I've
00:51:43 been looking at would that be fair I've so it's a fair fair comment and it is difficult because they say we don't don't have a high-rise for silica Train ommited to do the only time you hear that do that is to use an existing premise and that
00:51:56 premise and that quite difficult because they're generally populated and to facilitate that that's something that we we are we don't do right and just said I've got it I think you have answered my question
00:52:08 I think you have answered my question but I'm sorry if I sound like I'm repeating it looking at that first sentence the incident commander should follow the evacuation plan devised as part of the premises fire risk assessment when known were you trained
00:52:21 assessment when known were you trained in what you should do to follow this policy as an IC an incident commander at an incident the only way is to go and
00:52:34 an incident the only way is to go and you follow that is if they had a certain system in place which is something called a premises information box but potentially that may be present so if there has a if it does have a premises
00:52:46 there has a if it does have a premises with fire risk assessment that has been undertaken by a responsible person of that whoever owns that block river it's a Housing Association the local authority or a private landlord then
00:52:58 authority or a private landlord then there's my understanding is an it's a command with watch officers and that would be in something called a premise this information box which we as learned of five ago whether that would have access to on Singh I see but we'll come
00:53:09 access to on Singh I see but we'll come back to that that's very helpful thank you can I ask you then please to turn to page 30 internally of this same document as you'll see there are heading in bones building design and fire safety measures
00:53:21 building design and fire safety measures and I'll just read aloud to you the first paragraph and then show you two other paragraphs during a fire the level
00:53:32 other paragraphs during a fire the level of risk can be significantly increased if any of the buildings design features are compromised or are not in place because the building is under construction or refurbishment and then it says early unexpected failure or
00:53:45 it says early unexpected failure or non-existence of internal compartment ation within a flat can cause a fire to be far bigger than normally planned for
00:53:54 my question mr. done is were you trained to look out for early unexpected failure of into
00:54:01 of into complementation
00:54:13 my only reference to that in terms of training would be when stepping outside too before I was a an officer facilitating that Ivan if when I was being given training by my officers
00:54:24 being given training by my officers referencing it back into the relevant policies that within on a farm ago that that would refer to
00:54:39 and doing the best you can what is it that you were trained to look out for in terms of early unexpected failure of internal compartment ation what were you
00:54:51 internal compartment ation what were you trained to look for
00:55:06 to that beam observing any signs of symptoms of smoke or fire present outside that the original compartment
00:55:17 against from looking at there's two commands point of view putting in procedures in place to facilitate what we call 360 so to look for any other
00:55:29 we call 360 so to look for any other signs of rather than open your positions into commander having a visual one the app before that side of the building so you've got understanding of how this fire is behaving internally and looking
00:55:42 fire is behaving internally and looking at the fifth paragraph down in on this page so three on from the one we've just been looking at together it says the incident commander must consider the impact of building
00:55:54 consider the impact of building materials and contents on fire spread for example some designs of plastic or aluminium window frames or panels can be subject to early failure promoting fire growth and vertical and horizontal fire
00:56:06 growth and vertical and horizontal fire spread just just looking at that my question is were you ever trained in those matters
00:56:33 it's difficult to say I've actually received training on that that that would become hopefully apparent if that information was surrenders to us when we the two linearization visit
00:56:50 you say it would become apparent on familiarization visit did anybody ever train you as to what to look for in
00:57:01 train you as to what to look for in respect of the impact of building materials and contents on fast bread when doing familiarization visits
00:57:18 not like a because
00:57:22 so as an incident commander either on a familiarization visit or as a fire how
00:57:34 familiarization visit or as a fire how would you go about considering the impact of building materials and contents on fire spread could you a question yes when you are an incident commander either doing a familiarization
00:57:46 commander either doing a familiarization visit or out of fire and actually fine how would you go about considering being the impact of building materials and contents on fire spread it would be very
00:57:58 contents on fire spread it would be very much in terms of what you visually see in terms of how that forest if you looking communications from some crews from our offices on the fire ground [Music]
00:58:09 [Music] that's your information sources yes so you're looking visual different pieces of information from other crews working within the building that's generally resonance a commander
00:58:21 that's generally resonance a commander when you look at your information form let me dig a little deeper if you look at the next part of that paragraph it says for example some designs of plastic or aluminium window frames or panels can
00:58:33 or aluminium window frames or panels can be subject to early failure promoting fire growth and vertical and horizontal fire spread how were you trained to know
00:58:44 fire spread how were you trained to know which designs of plastic or aluminium windows or panels would be subject to early failure and which wouldn't receive any training and that specifically
00:58:57 any training and that specifically right can you go back please then to page 20 in the same policy and there
00:59:12 page 20 in the same policy and there you'll see in red two-thirds of the way down the page command-and-control at incidents the incident commander must follow the principles of a lack current national incident command system and
00:59:26 national incident command system and then going over the page that's just that just gives you what this bits about but to go over the page the top of page 21 I'll just read the paragraph to you it's short it says the incident
00:59:38 it's short it says the incident commander should review and change their plan whenever new information becomes available at the is at the incident or from far control it is vital that the incident commander makes effective use
00:59:50 incident commander makes effective use of the sector and functional commanders to implement their plan minimize spans of control and prevent personal information overload now my question the
01:00:01 information overload now my question the first question is were you trained ever in what you should do to follow this policy as an incident commander at an incident
01:00:16 the only reference I can make to that specific policy is called the decision-making model the note some figures an officer you have a lot of input in it's a policy itself it goes
01:00:28 input in it's a policy itself it goes through a sort of flow chart process in terms of if information related to the task or event in terms of what what we're turning up to resource e resources
01:00:40 we're turning up to resource e resources and also informational risk-benefit it takes you from such a very strategic flowchart and of how to initially formulate a plan if any new information comes to light and how you really
01:00:53 comes to light and how you really evaluate that how to communicate it so in terms of that's my understanding of decision-making lot of water systems to commanders to write in that paragraph
01:01:04 commanders to write in that paragraph right that's for a couple just just so we can be clear can I ask you to be shown tab 13 of the policies bundle which is the decision-making model or
01:01:16 which is the decision-making model or rather was the one current as of November 2014 I'll just wait for it to come up on the screen it's lfb quintuple zero so five zeros
01:01:28 it's lfb quintuple zero so five zeros two three eight
01:01:32 and this is lfb policy three for one is this the model that you were referring to mr. doubt that's correct and that you refer to a flowchart can you please be shown page two of this document is that
01:01:45 shown page two of this document is that what you were referring to that's correct
01:01:47 correct and I think there's one of page three as well and in fact on through the documents gathering and thinking at page 4 information about the task or event page 5 information about available
01:01:59 page 5 information about available resources page 6 and so on lots of flowcharts is that what you are that's correct referring to but so it coming back then thank you I think we can close that document down and go back
01:02:10 can close that document down and go back to page 21 please within tab 7 which is the GRA coming back to the top of page 21 the answer mother should review and
01:02:24 21 the answer mother should review and change their plan you say you did get training in that and that was training in policy 301 we've just looked at so that would be an initial impetus of commander but also that would be I'll
01:02:37 commander but also that would be I'll have to facilitate that more local over for myself watch base level the station play slip just looking then at this paragraph at the top of page 21 the
01:02:50 paragraph at the top of page 21 the incident commander should review and change their plan whenever new information becomes available at the incident or for fire control can you give us an idea of what kind of new information at an incident that would
01:03:01 information at an incident that would require you as an incident commander to review and change your plan reports of persons involved reports only hazardous
01:03:13 persons involved reports only hazardous materials no that's a chemicals cinders any risks to firefighters potential building collapse signs of Simpsons of
01:03:26 building collapse signs of Simpsons of fire smoke spread
01:03:30 anything that from instacart needs to know whether that canal increased over resourcing so purses reported and fire
01:03:41 resourcing so purses reported and fire and smoke spread two of the flags would this be fair to flags yeah that would alert you as an incident commander to review and change your plan if I didn't have that on the rival or as a first
01:03:53 have that on the rival or as a first piece of information that service of it I'd have to review as an ax squad to check my plan here right and what about evidence of failure of compartment a ssin would that be something that would
01:04:04 ssin would that be something that would cause you to review and change your plan yeah yes and what were you trained to do as an incident commander if any of those
01:04:17 as an incident commander if any of those happen persons reported fire and smoke spread failure of complementation changes of priority you know on the fire brigade with the priority is to save
01:04:29 brigade with the priority is to save life that's our number one priority so we look at there's a you know life fire and hazard so that the number one priority is life then we look at the fire them any other hazards that may be
01:04:40 fire them any other hazards that may be your process within that we're in that previous so if I got new information that you know people were involved in
01:04:52 that you know people were involved in that's that's my number one priority that's where I need to sort direct my resources to and I focus to in that incident thank you we can now listen if I'm being closed
01:05:05 we can now listen if I'm being closed that policy and go to the next one which is high-rise fire fighting and that's policy lfb 633 which you'll find in Tab 4 but it's lfb five zeros 1 7 8
01:05:31 and mr. done but there it is on the screen this is mr. when you give me a
01:05:42 screen this is mr. when you give me a moment it's one two five six mr. Tron director we put the wrong version of that on the screen it's set 1 2 5 6 so
01:05:53 that on the screen it's set 1 2 5 6 so lfb 0 0 0 1 2 5 6 yes that's the one that's the one reviewed as current at the 1st of June 2015 and as we understand it mr. dad and that's the one that was current as at June 2017 my
01:06:09 that was current as at June 2017 my question is as at June 2017 were you familiar with this policy yes I was prior to the 14th of June 2017 did you have any training on this policy yes how
01:06:22 have any training on this policy yes how often did you have training on this policy do you think do you remember in terms of individual dates and Pacific's
01:06:33 terms of individual dates and Pacific's perspective before it's we can reference that in terms of a theory session at a station base level where we talk about on route and on arrival tactics and for high-rise premises spoke about in
01:06:45 high-rise premises spoke about in February 2016 we had a sort of full day of practical and training tactical exercise which was facilitated at Hammersmith fire station but that would
01:06:57 Hammersmith fire station but that would be incorporated into something we call our core skills training and that is just one very small part of our training that we have to adopt it a local level station right so February 15 or so 60
01:07:13 station right so February 15 or so 60 you said you had a full day of practical and tactical decision exercise facilitated at Hammersmith yes I'm going to come back just to that in a moment can I ask you to look at your training
01:07:26 can I ask you to look at your training records which the lfb are very kindly put together for us
01:07:33 this you will find in bundle as a bundle of documents tab 9 and the relativity
01:07:44 of documents tab 9 and the relativity number it's a very long spreadsheet it doesn't just apply to you the relativity reference mr. trial director is lfb quadruple zero three five seven one and
01:07:58 quadruple zero three five seven one and your training starts descent of where it is and the spreadsheet of page three and goes back to 2012 is in reverse order
01:08:16 can I ask you just to note that at the foot of each page on the right you should have a page number can you read that on the screen which particular part
01:08:31 that on the screen which particular part of the when we go to start with what ought to be page 25 which should have an entry for the 23rd of March 2017
01:08:47 it's not clear I only wanted yes and if
01:09:00 it's not clear I only wanted yes and if you look at the 23rd of March 2017 we think that's the last one before the fire on the 14th of June in terms of
01:09:12 fire on the 14th of June in terms of firefighting and high-rise buildings Tolleson 6 3 3 that you had mister darden
01:09:21 now it says that if you look across the page it's theoretical station based training and first of all do you
01:09:33 training and first of all do you remember independently what training you had in late March 2017 on policy 633 a
01:09:44 had in late March 2017 on policy 633 a comp we've got to record actual specifics in terms of what the session
01:09:50 however then what I know there was give up I won't get to the answer I want to say prior to growing for about April six
01:10:02 say prior to growing for about April six weeks prior to me we had a high-rise fire at Utrecht our and I know that it's not be my training diary but I know it certainly has been referenced in my
01:10:13 certainly has been referenced in my firefighters and my junior offices that about two weeks before that that was my last memory of having a impertinent in Pyro's firefighters nearly my training record though so whoever it was because I was facilitating that training but as
01:10:24 I was facilitating that training but as a supervisor but that was around and I know that the baton that one was kind of cost if it was 28 for April think around that sort of time and they were there
01:10:35 that sort of time and they were there was a couple of changes that I entered a trade tower and we did quite robust yeah session on on it was like a tactical decision exercise on arrival tactics
01:10:47 decision exercise on arrival tactics because obviously there was a couple of changes at our trade tower so for my memory that was that that's the most current sort of theory based input that I've been involved with right in I was
01:10:58 I've been involved with right in I was fire fighter okay that's helpful and we might be able to find some of those in a moment
01:11:03 moment just as we look at this spreadsheet for different things but looking at 6:33 at the moment focusing on the one you've got in on the 23rd of March 2017 it says theoretical station based
01:11:15 it says theoretical station based training yet of what what was that can you remember I can't believe you notice it once you stay here this is exactly what I did but from previous training
01:11:28 what I did but from previous training says and I've held them on the theatre theory side of it so we've looked through policy it would be about okay what I want on route advice piece over here any further traffic comes through
01:11:40 here any further traffic comes through I want a rival tactics insert site of appliances looking at what if it's a dry riser or wet rise within that building how we have meant that the equipment
01:11:53 how we have meant that the equipment needed to to firefight with in high-rise buildings the procedure of we adopt within within the building in terms of a safe system has work referring out to
01:12:05 safe system has work referring out to the bridgehead to generally not from from my memory that would be how that theory session would have been facilitated it sounds from that pretty
01:12:16 facilitated it sounds from that pretty comprehensive would that be fair I would say so yes and prior to that you had
01:12:27 say so yes and prior to that you had another station basic theoretical station based session on the 14th of September 2016 you look at page 22 of the spreadsheet which means coming
01:12:38 the spreadsheet which means coming forward if you look at just near the bottom of the page 14th of September 2016 you'll see another reference to firefighting and high-rise buildings 633
01:12:49 firefighting and high-rise buildings 633 again theoretical station based training can you remember what that session was about I thought that again I would get
01:13:01 about I thought that again I would get some really cool specifics of it it would be very similar to the the detectors I just discussed in terms of I'm group on arrival equipment anything else yeah
01:13:12 else yeah so with these sessions that the same or did they develop in response to new learning between October 16 donar 17
01:13:24 learning between October 16 donar 17 remember have any new learning within that package now it would be a very similar package that was delivered between those two dates right
01:13:38 and if you there's one I should say is in Berlin May 2016 on page 21 and on page 20 10th of February 2016 I won't go
01:13:49 page 20 10th of February 2016 I won't go to these if the answer is the same but these are all station based to theoretical training on policy 633 Doug it might be the one that will you facilitate it up I have to look well
01:14:02 facilitate it up I have to look well let's get back to that it's page 20 because you did mention I think February 16 page 20 is federal 16 and it's roundabout in the middle of the page
01:14:14 roundabout in the middle of the page 10th of February 2016 there are actually three entries there but there are four entries there for the same date I think I think that just I'm
01:14:29 same date I think I think that just I'm pretty certain that's the one we facilitated at Hammersmith fire station I may be wrong as it was around that sort of time right
01:14:40 and those are referred to as firefighting high-rise buildings 633 and twice and there is an entry for the 10th
01:14:51 twice and there is an entry for the 10th of February theoretical station based training and again just below that and then compartment firefighting 793 same date but again that's referred to as theoretical station based training so
01:15:03 theoretical station based training so maybe that wasn't the one we've referenced to that the because the session we had a hammersmith was essentially it wasn't it was an area
01:15:14 essentially it wasn't it was an area based training package set of it we was on the circles because tapana strategic resource we were facilitating a period of time well we're not operational but we still have so that be a separate
01:15:27 we still have so that be a separate entry into our station diary and next to that we would still have our core skills training so there's no facility for me to leave that core skills training blank because it doesn't except I have to pop
01:15:38 because it doesn't except I have to pop with happen so I can only reference say that that was a lost if that was the same day alongside the training event at has the fire station so we do have to have populated that with some kind of
01:15:49 have populated that with some kind of high-rise training to to tie that in and they'd be able to sign off on our station diver training memory I see so you in simple terms are you saying that the entry there well there it says
01:16:01 the entry there well there it says theoretical station based training is actually linked to a practical I can't 100% confirm that but that that's what my understanding would be yes okay you'll go from the recollection I imagine
01:16:12 I imagine I'm not being very helpful to show your documents they're building that yes okay now before we leave this document can I just ask you to look at page 18
01:16:23 just ask you to look at page 18 something I wanted to ask you about while I was in the document listed out on page 18 again we have that we have
01:16:36 on page 18 again we have that we have two references but I wanted to ask you about that for firefighting in high-rise buildings policy 633 do you see that the that's just below halfway down we
01:16:50 that's just below halfway down we see that on 28th of October 2015 there's theoretical station based training firefighting and high-rise building six three three and it says lecturer incident management buildings
01:17:03 lecturer incident management buildings and structures buildings or structures firefighting and high-rise buildings 633 could you explain that entry
01:17:15 again I won't be out to pacific's but me there will be reference into policy 623 so again it'll be a it would be a theory session in terms of our on arrival
01:17:28 session in terms of our on arrival tactics and equipment needed to firefighter within a high-rise premise but it says that the refers to you I think as a lecturer is that right or is
01:17:39 think as a lecturer is that right or is it referring to somebody else as the lecturer right said lecturer yes a bit that would be books because I as a
01:17:50 that would be books because I as a manager and anyone office alone the five watch base level you will be being the person to to facilitate those theories training sessions so they've been in an entry for should be natural for me
01:18:01 entry for should be natural for me delivering that present or the theory based session and then for the other members that watch who are receiving that so when it says lecturer as it does
01:18:13 that so when it says lecturer as it does quite a lot through this training record you are we to understanding that you are the person delivering the lecture on the subject to your firefighters yes
01:18:25 subject to your firefighters yes that's generally how it's facilitators and how big was your attendance is it just read watch or no no it's just that's just local to my watch only so every watch watch based officer it's
01:18:37 every watch watch based officer it's funny facilitator outside their own watch outside their own team and on six three three specifically were there early lecture materials like handouts or slides that you would deliver to your
01:18:48 slides that you would deliver to your firefighters when giving that lecture
01:18:52 [Music] I would reference it into policy have a printout policy and generally facilitate maybe some questioning you know
01:19:03 maybe some questioning you know involvement of the team and then forces have your white board have a diagram of a high-rise premise and how we you know how would it set up referencing it back
01:19:15 how would it set up referencing it back to policy 633 and we see a little bit lower down the same page for the 6th of November 2015 that again firefighting and high-rise building six three-story
01:19:27 and high-rise building six three-story lecturer incident management buildings and structures buildings and structures firefighting a high-rise building 633 so that's only about a week or so ten days or so later again theoretical station
01:19:40 or so later again theoretical station based training do you remember whether that was a different lecture that you delivered I can't perhaps I should ask you were you when it first a lecturer that's new is
01:19:51 when it first a lecturer that's new is it if that's the Rick would they note that would be myself yes and do you remember why you deliver this what looks like from this document the same lecture
01:20:02 like from this document the same lecture only ten days apart and was anybody supervising you as to what you would be
01:20:14 supervising you as to what you would be lecturing on when lecturing and high-rise firefighting I wouldn't have any supervisor such there would be I see the rest of firefighters on the watch
01:20:26 the rest of firefighters on the watch and my junior officers had the crew managers but no on resource supervising what the content was or quality assurance
01:20:33 assurance than one so you didn't go to a superior officer and say this is what I get to lecture my firefighters on on six three three this afternoon no did that ever happen not in that
01:20:48 no did that ever happen not in that respect we we do have a process by where our training we'll be able to did by senior officer and that we facilitate by a day of auditing and they'll come down
01:21:02 a day of auditing and they'll come down and they'll see a practical application not specific to highways they don't they were in terms of what we may have training on that day and then also audit a theory based session as well and tests
01:21:14 a theory based session as well and tests and firefighters knowledge of a certain piece of equipment but that's something that would be facilitated by also our buyer to area team how did you or could
01:21:28 buyer to area team how did you or could you ever know whether the lectures that you were giving to your firefighters about fire high-rise firefighting were effective
01:21:41 suppose the only way I could really do that is by when I see them out on the histogram how they how they applicator
01:21:52 histogram how they how they applicator apply themselves because on the fire ground I would never really sort of animate this excessive of that training session leaving into the fire ground in
01:22:04 session leaving into the fire ground in the case of an actual incident might not not be a bit late it could pass in it yeah
01:22:17 can I then ask you then to look put that or what you put that bundle away you don't have it there can I ask you to take up policy 6 3 3 which is in Tab 4
01:22:30 take up policy 6 3 3 which is in Tab 4 of the policy bundle I think I gave the reference zerah zerah zerah zerah zerah 1 7 8 and this is the one current as of
01:22:42 1 7 8 and this is the one current as of June 2015
01:22:44 June 2015 can I ask please first of all to turn to page picture pirated paragraph seven
01:22:55 page picture pirated paragraph seven point four five at which you'll find on page 14 of 28 I'm going to start with
01:23:06 page 14 of 28 I'm going to start with this topic evacuation par 7.45 the IC
01:23:31 just give me a moment think of something in a gone no Rockets been Rena but it's seven four nine seven point four nine you get back that's it nicht mr. cha
01:23:46 you get back that's it nicht mr. cha director could you go back to the one you had just a moment ago mr. Dudley I'm sorry about this this is that's it there seven point four nine evacuation the IC
01:23:58 seven point four nine evacuation the IC should consider following the evacuation plan devised as part of the occupiers fire risk assessment unless the fire situation dictates otherwise the question is what training did you ever
01:24:12 question is what training did you ever get in how to consider to follow the evacuation plan under that policy
01:24:36 so this uh pot from actually that policy and the individuals discretion in terms of how to apply that recursively their training particular test it so it's
01:24:48 training particular test it so it's asleep so the answer is really the same as the answers you gave before when I was showing you the GRA three point two yes and in relationship to the next
01:24:59 yes and in relationship to the next paragraph 7.50 where it says it may be necessary to undertake a partial or full evacuation in a residential building whereas type of policy is normally in
01:25:11 whereas type of policy is normally in place again my question is or was well what training did you get in in respect of undertaking partial or full evacuation in such a building nothing
01:25:25 evacuation in such a building nothing being a policy six three thrill and not receive any practical training of how to apply that and you can take this I think quite quickly if you just then go down
01:25:36 quite quickly if you just then go down to seven point five one a and B the IC should consider the effect of firefighting tactics on evacuation and vice versa and the resources required to support the evacuation or stake of
01:25:47 support the evacuation or stake of policy what was your training in respect of how to consider those matters as you're out on the same
01:26:02 yes
01:26:11 can I ask you there to look a little bit lower down at 7.55 over the page
01:26:27 let's just look at this together the advice offered during fire survival calls and I'm sorry I should have told you this is underneath fire survival
01:26:39 you this is underneath fire survival guidance which is the heading the advice offered during fire survival calls should be reevaluated throughout an incident and this may require a change in the advice given in exceptional
01:26:50 in the advice given in exceptional circumstances an IC may consider informing control that their advice to FSG callers should be altered eg to attempt to leave their property I just
01:27:02 attempt to leave their property I just just get a pause there let's ask you to look at those words and ask I'll see you this question did you ever receive any training in how to
01:27:15 ever receive any training in how to reevaluate the advice offered during fire survival calls throughout an incident
01:27:32 not like on the corner looking at the next sentence in exceptional circumstances an eight IC may consider informing control but their advice to FSG callers should be altered eg to
01:27:43 FSG callers should be altered eg to attempt to leave their property did you ever receive any training in how you would go about working through that question how to consider informing control with the advice your change
01:28:18 it's only training it'd just be through through that what's a paragraph and I'm vice of our Gardens policy and my interpretation of how that how I was so
01:28:33 interpretation of how that how I was so so would this be fair that you knew that that was the policy but you were left to your own discretion based on your experience as to how to decide what to
01:28:47 experience as to how to decide what to do about advice to users where those how that was the case you can alter it does step outside our control but practice policy I know that has to be facility
01:29:00 policy I know that has to be facility only obviously to watch whoever's in charge of the control room at that time and that's how you can be confirmed between that individual and use and commander Golikov I've actually received
01:29:13 commander Golikov I've actually received any training on how how about is done and would the same apply to what to look for by way of exceptional circumstances were you trained in what were exceptional circumstances
01:29:26 mr. chairman that may be a convenient moment for a break a good time there's a good line all right done you're gonna have a brake pad 20 minutes give you
01:29:37 have a brake pad 20 minutes give you time to can I ask you this now you've started giving your evidence I have to ask you not to discuss your evidence or the case for anything about this
01:29:48 the case for anything about this particular inquiry with anyone else until you finish giving your evidence and that will apply if we go lunchtime as I think Michelle can you just remember that thank you very much
01:30:00 remember that thank you very much 20 parts lemon please
01:30:15 you
01:53:15 now mister darden before we continue are you happy standing all the time at the moment yes I'm fine right maybe if you feel you'd like to sit down because we can move that left and so they all sitting down behind yes mister mister
01:53:33 sitting down behind yes mister mister darden
01:53:33 darden can I just ask you how often as at June 2017 did you at North Kensington Fire Station practice drills highlight shows
01:53:47 Station practice drills highlight shows wait any let's start with any drill that cannot be incorporated into the core skills training so I couldn't give you a
01:53:58 skills training so I couldn't give you a definitive number on that night I mean roughly a week how many drills ordinary drills of any kind would you do the don't you work an ordinary week so
01:54:09 the don't you work an ordinary week so we did two days and two nights generally the practical stuff we facilitated on days and then maybe some theory and then potentially only the night night duties
01:54:20 potentially only the night night duties or Theory sessions will be what we would be practiced and now colorized drills how often as at June 2017 would you practice high-rise drills at North Kensington it's very difficult station
01:54:33 Kensington it's very difficult station pay particular North Kensington to to actually delay a practical based high-rise drill so for me I would generally facilitate
01:54:47 so for me I would generally facilitate the highrise training through more of a theory based in terms of reference in its policy six three three why is it difficult at North Kensington to do a
01:55:00 difficult at North Kensington to do a practical based high-rise drill well I wouldn't just give this to North kenseth and Fire Station we don't have the facility farm we had any London fire station to replicate our high-rise to
01:55:12 station to replicate our high-rise to real we had we have a sort of training towers but we generally use those pastila tapes or ladder work training this for me it's quite difficult to
01:55:23 this for me it's quite difficult to facilitate a real robust high-rise training scenario at station base level where would you go or where would you be sent if you were to have a high-rise
01:55:37 sent if you were to have a high-rise fire drill which was properly practical we can facilitate off station training whether they're a local authority may
01:55:51 whether they're a local authority may surrender a building us and what being used we can potentially use that facility and that's theme you have to do a lot of background work behind at risk
01:56:02 a lot of background work behind at risk assessments and everything else because obviously my NLF be promised
01:56:09 and how often would you say as at June 2017 would you facilitate an off station training in a building surrendered by a
01:56:21 training in a building surrendered by a local authority the only time I've ever been involved with that was not my title of Kensington I couldn't the only one I've done that facilitate that one when I was a certain
01:56:32 facilitate that one when I was a certain degree much I facilitated a high-rise practical scenario at Olive tower and because at that point it was a lot of the floors ran out unoccupied I can't be
01:56:47 the floors ran out unoccupied I can't be specific on what what year that was but I know that I did to facilitate a high-rise search and rescue drill at that telev Tower right that's the only
01:56:58 that telev Tower right that's the only one in that's the only one I've organizers our watch officer yes we've organized how many of you actually been involved in in your career from memory
01:57:10 involved in in your career from memory it would only be that one and the practical application that we did the full day at Hammersmith and then as an incident commander but not as a watch
01:57:22 incident commander but not as a watch based scenario so when you go away when I went away two more in a march to the fire service College they had a range of different premises that you could you
01:57:33 different premises that you could you know instil command skills would be tested so they did how they have different buildings and I have a high-rise vicinity and at Morton Marsh that fire service college when it was under the public body yeah and in terms
01:57:48 under the public body yeah and in terms of the practical application that you did in a full day at Hammersmith how did that differ from or did it differ from the high-rise exercise that you helped
01:57:59 the high-rise exercise that you helped organize at the toll worth tower when you were a Surbiton it's they're very different because obviously it's very hard to replicate station based level a thorough high-rise drill because you
01:58:11 thorough high-rise drill because you cannot replicate the scenario but you don't have the size of that building the facilities which don't have that in London what was it at Hammersmith that you had in terms of physical structures to enables
01:58:24 of physical structures to enables practice are a huge service book training tower which wouldn't maybe eight floors in height and the scenario was we've used the ground floor of that training tower as our what we call a
01:58:37 training tower as our what we call a bridgehead and then from memory it was we'd facilitate using maybe two floors above that and the second floor be the fire floor and it was you know going
01:58:48 fire floor and it was you know going through in terms of getting the equipment needed at the bridgehead getting water supplies and then putting firefighter crews through those two floors into what we call the fire floor
01:59:00 floors into what we call the fire floor into compartment but you can't replicate a compartment fire there's no there's no combination environment you're solving safe air did that program at Hammersmith
01:59:11 safe air did that program at Hammersmith the practical training based day so practical based training their Hammersmith and cover compartment ation breach and fire spread beyond the
01:59:22 breach and fire spread beyond the compartment of origin you know in the practical session in from my memory in this week all the training yard but we did there were further tactical decision exercise I can't remember if that
01:59:35 exercise I can't remember if that incorporated the fire spread but certainly we did do some work on fire Survival Guide and someone's put under a bit of pressure in terms of that right
01:59:47 bit of pressure in terms of that right any practical did you have any practical training on the hammersmith day in terms of fire survival guidance calls and communications
01:59:58 he tried to explain so I was in one room as incident commander and I was getting fed information about you know you have to visualize it really in terms of what
02:00:11 to visualize it really in terms of what what we're trying to achieve and I remember having a radio had some traffic coming into a comedy specific that the traffic coming into me and at first it was a high-rise incident hollows for
02:00:22 was a high-rise incident hollows for compartment fire five fire so how we respond to that how a resource it what my decision-making was and then as the instant escalates there are members was dropping in I can't punch a guarantee if
02:00:35 dropping in I can't punch a guarantee if there was fire spread involving that scenario but certainly I'll do it quite specifically remembered because at the debrief we were talking about the fire survival garden stuff you know that was
02:00:46 survival garden stuff you know that was that was later bought in we've got persons reported and we have now have to measure fire Survival Guide process right how many fire surviving safar survival guidance calls were you
02:00:57 survival guidance calls were you receiving juggling during the that practical training exercise I couldn't put a number in it but it wasn't to the scale of what we had a grant felt our
02:01:10 scale of what we had a grant felt our did you ever practice the evacuation of people with mobility issues or elderly people or children from high floors in high-rise blocks of no practice
02:01:21 high-rise blocks of no practice definitely now you go to your witness statement please look at the page two it's down tonight you say
02:01:36 first at the beginning of 2016 sorry the end of 2016 the beginning of 2017 you did a back-to-basics training
02:01:47 2017 you did a back-to-basics training day yet based on the lack of house fire in 2009 did you attend the Latin house fire no can you tell us what that training that you refer to involved so
02:02:01 training that you refer to involved so that there's there was two I think I've got a bit confusion terms that statement there was two separate things I've trying to explain so I'll explain those now the that back-to-basics training was
02:02:12 now the that back-to-basics training was the one I'm referring to at Hammersmith in terms of the tactical decision exercise and from my understanding it was the aim of that tactical decision
02:02:23 was the aim of that tactical decision exercise in particular was to try and they replicate some of the learning points that came out of Latino house in terms of the files of other guidance because that like I know house we had no way of managing or processing that
02:02:36 way of managing or processing that information of no fire survival guides which basically people are trapped within their premise from the components of the fire here or smoke there was a
02:02:48 of the fire here or smoke there was a separate training package put together on lack in our house which was a again theory based PowerPoint presentation but
02:02:59 theory based PowerPoint presentation but that that wasn't delivered at that point Hammersmith when we did the back-to-basics training right what were the learning points can you remember that were replicated in that training
02:03:14 for me the main one I think was about how how he managed did the fire survival guidance of course right what was the so
02:03:25 guidance of course right what was the so that was the subject let me press you a little what was the learning point what was the takeaway from Latin or house that got replicated in the back-to-basics training
02:03:35 I couldn't get we've got to give you specifics in terms of the learning outcomes just for my own interpretation that that was it was based on our having no lackin no house if you it seemed to
02:03:49 no lackin no house if you it seemed to me to be very similar in terms of what they were trying to replicate on particular in that tactical decision exercise session what did you learn from the back-to-basics training that you
02:04:01 the back-to-basics training that you didn't know before
02:04:25 I suppose Philippe's how I'm the pressure you can feel and just in you know I've never had any dealings operationally with doing fire Survival
02:04:36 operationally with doing fire Survival Guide those calls and and the process of that information I suppose for me personally how how that can make you feel under pressure and how important is
02:04:48 feel under pressure and how important is to prioritize your resources when you get a fire Survival Guide that's cool do you do you know what prompted the lfb to
02:05:02 you do you know what prompted the lfb to deliver a lack Millhouse related course at the end of 2016 beginning of 2017 I could only presume it would be from
02:05:13 I could only presume it would be from the recommendations from the inquest following that in your house you don't know from your own knowledge you know nothing no knowledge no it was this the first time end of 16 early 17 that this
02:05:26 first time end of 16 early 17 that this kind of training was delivered to you yes
02:05:35 can I ask you to go back to your witness statement and look at page seven at the bottom of the page last paragraph you
02:05:49 refer there to a fire at Shepherd's court and you say at a fire within Shepherd's court about six to seven months before the Trellick tower incident the fire did start to spread up
02:06:00 incident the fire did start to spread up the building but that was caused by burning bits of planning around the uPVC windows igniting cladding on the floors above the fire floor this is a common event in high-rise fires and it is known
02:06:12 event in high-rise fires and it is known as the co and er effect now come I'll come back to those words and that paragraph at the moment but I just want to take it in stages you mentioned Shepherd's court that was
02:06:23 you mentioned Shepherd's court that was a fire on the 19th of August 2016 it's a matter of record okay does that does that you remember you remember that I do remember Langston yes and what kind of building was it in
02:06:36 yes and what kind of building was it in it was horrible it was a high-rise well do you remember where exactly it was it's located on in Shepherds Bush in Shepherds Bush come did you attend that
02:06:48 Shepherds Bush come did you attend that fire I did yes you did at what point in the fire did you attend I believe I went on mate pumped 8 the UN will make pumps aids not the initial attendants now right but and do you
02:07:02 attendants now right but and do you remember how soon after the initial attendance pumps were made 8 at that incident no I don't
02:07:14 incident no I don't now you say that in your statement that cladding around uPVC windows ignited cladding on the floors above the fire and that that's a common event but you also say in the next sentence the fire
02:07:28 also say in the next sentence the fire can spread up the building externally but it usually spreads upwards for just one or two floors and this we can manage because firefighters can go one or two floors above where the fire is and fire
02:07:40 floors above where the fire is and fire fight it from the inside but my question is you know when you say it usually goes up one or two floors what why do you say
02:07:51 up one or two floors what why do you say that just from experience experiences I've heard about the fire okay further case studies generally you know
02:08:03 case studies generally you know compartments do fail in the external it's not something that's unusual to any any fire and sometimes a compartment failing in terms of ie a window or a door or an opening failing actually
02:08:15 door or an opening failing actually sometimes it isn't a bad thing because it can improve conditions of firefighters within that compartment are you to get rid of amber gases which can be an issue or improve visibility so that's not something that is alien to an
02:08:28 that's not something that is alien to an officer or a firefighter and where would we resource that accordingly and as I said in a statement you it's not a quick process generally that window would fail
02:08:40 process generally that window would fail if we can get access we can get cover and jet on that too to try and you know stop that person on fire sprayed and that's that's not something uncommon you know it doesn't generally got such a
02:08:54 know it doesn't generally got such a rate where you can't resource it to stop that external fire spray and I said of my statement we generally can know from from experience that homeowner fire
02:09:06 from experience that homeowner fire fighters of offices that we you know can go in into those floors above and and generally it might not be it's just the outside of that compartment that's that's been compromised and you know plastic does so you know does that's
02:09:18 plastic does so you know does that's been quite okay has quite a low melting point it generally might just be the window around the worse you know internal furnishings around that with its windows curtains and it gives us
02:09:30 its windows curtains and it gives us enough time to get into those compartments above the five floor and and fight that internally if it's close enough to the ground them of covering jets of ice we cannot and suppress that fire spread yes you said a minute ago
02:09:43 fire spread yes you said a minute ago that plastic does burn and Canada low melting point generally might be that
02:09:54 melting point generally might be that the window around in eternal furnishings can confirm good I'm gonna just follow that up a little bit as at June 2017 could you describe your state of
02:10:05 could you describe your state of knowledge and experience as to the melting and burning of plastic components around the window yeah I wouldn't have any I would have any
02:10:17 wouldn't have any I would have any scientific knowledge in terms of a Pacific you know what temperature would fail but you know it from being in a fire service you do understand that
02:10:28 fire service you do understand that certain materials have a lower turret when they're involved in fire you know and that's why certain buildings should you know particular high-rise no should
02:10:39 you know particular high-rise no should should be built in Whalen materials used or mortar no difference when they were involved in fire so would you say that in your experience as it was in June 2017 the presence of plastic or plastic
02:10:55 2017 the presence of plastic or plastic type materials around windows was a known risk to you as an incident commander yeah yeah it was a known risk and would that be the kind of risk that
02:11:07 and would that be the kind of risk that when you did a familiar ization visit or a visit unders what we call section 72 D I'll ask you about those later but when you did those kinds of visits is that is
02:11:18 you did those kinds of visits is that is that known risk something that you would want
02:11:20 want look out for in a building you were visiting
02:11:31 if I'm going to be honest it's not something that would I would have I were going to a building you know looking looking for that maybe that's the expectation and for me
02:11:42 maybe that's the expectation and for me when I did it for me arises a some big powerful memorization visit it's more about if the facilities the layout etc
02:11:53 about if the facilities the layout etc within that property but in the high-rise block okay build we'll we'll come back to that I just wanted to pursue that there in your experience as it was in June
02:12:04 in your experience as it was in June 2017 we're there any occasions that you'd come across when they fire had gone up further than one or two floors on the exterior of a tower block I can
02:12:19 on the exterior of a tower block I can only other point of reference to that would be a fire I tended random Chyzyk very late on these that was a Cambridge gardens in Kingston it was a high-rise block I was a crew manager at the time
02:12:33 for memory that only involved about three compartments fully involved three compartments again everything believe that was very near the top of the
02:12:46 that was very near the top of the building yeah that was my only other real experience of iver as a firefighter or an officer being involved in a
02:12:57 or an officer being involved in a high-rise fireworks and it's involved in more than one on compartment okay and what can you give us an idea of when that was a date
02:13:07 [Music]
02:13:14 it must have been between his bit Matata gotta apologize to 2008-2009 where are you based
02:13:23 you based I was based at Chyzyk your basic yeah and do you remember what the materials on the exterior were that were
02:13:34 materials on the exterior were that were alight do you remember what kind of building it was I mean it was a high-rise it was a how I thought I was it again it's gonna be an estimate
02:13:45 it again it's gonna be an estimate guesstimate Oh 20 floors maybe maybe it maybe less you ever have fast the fire spread on the exterior I was when I was mobilized after we would make pump 20
02:13:58 mobilized after we would make pump 20 and Jeremy on that's when an instant that size goes to make pump that can be a fair way incidents that yeah cool at
02:14:10 a fair way incidents that yeah cool at what time now I'd like you to look please at a slideshow which is a document produced by the lfb entitled
02:14:21 document produced by the lfb entitled the tall building facades that is bundle tab 10 and mr. trial director it's lfb four zeroes three five two one
02:14:36 now you'll see that on the front page there on page one it's dated the 13th of July 2016 and it's an NFB official
02:14:47 July 2016 and it's an NFB official document we have been told by the other fee that in fact and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong about this later and I'll come back to you if I have to but it is in fact was in fact completed in October
02:14:59 in fact was in fact completed in October 2016 but it looks like it looks like the heading date didn't change so bear with me on the basis that this is an October
02:15:10 me on the basis that this is an October 16 document and the reasons why I say that will become obvious in a moment I hope first first question have you ever seen this document before I don't recourse in that document though now I'm
02:15:21 recourse in that document though now I'm gonna show it to you quickly and I'm just going to ask you whether you go and have ever had training on parts of this document but if you've ever seen it before can I assume you've never actually had training on the document as
02:15:33 actually had training on the document as a whole causing that all right can I then ask you please to turn to first of all page pages 2 3 & 4 just have a look
02:15:46 all page pages 2 3 & 4 just have a look at those so page two here are three photographs a an exterior fire in garage knee and at the address Dubai and the
02:15:58 knee and at the address Dubai and the tan wheel tower Dubai are you familiar with those events no you know
02:16:06 can I ask you to get to the next page please same topic exterior fire all at our block in Shanghai and in Baku in Azerbaijan in 2015 were you familiar
02:16:21 Azerbaijan in 2015 were you familiar with those events
02:16:28 can you look at the next page bees Basingstoke and gone court exterior fires inna Garnica court's case 2000 1999
02:16:39 Garnica court's case 2000 1999 were you familiar or are you familiar with that not with the basement stone on only three oh now I've gone up court because it's been brought to our attention but I'm previous to that 244
02:16:54 attention but I'm previous to that 244 tune 27 still have no knowledge of that when when was gone at court brought to your attention I had to meet him with
02:17:06 your attention I had to meet him with the some representative the fiber guys Union and they brought to my attention that this fire had occurred him in in 1999 what you had a meeting with yeah
02:17:18 1999 what you had a meeting with yeah representatives of the Fire Brigades Union but when was that meeting wasn't just as for me it was we were invited as
02:17:32 just as for me it was we were invited as a watch and to go and sort of have a conversation with them in terms of you having issues around the process would be involved with any concerns and that
02:17:43 be involved with any concerns and that that was that was mentioned to me at that meeting when was that meeting no it was this year this year yeah remember when this year
02:18:04 it was
02:18:07 a early part of this year think I can't give a specific back nine where was that meeting that was a hotel in London hotel in London hotel in
02:18:20 in London hotel in London hotel in London on Dan Balin led by a hawk okay and do you remember who from the Fire Brigades Union was there Matt Rach was there and Steve white as
02:18:37 Matt Rach was there and Steve white as well as there and you say was it was your watched yeah was it was that meeting just with red watch north ken or no I think there was a there's a fairly
02:18:48 no I think there was a there's a fairly useful meeting because it you know none of us had been we know that inquiry process was was coming up so none of us had it been in in that environment I
02:19:00 had it been in in that environment I believe it was gonna you know it wasn't just for red watch at North Kenza and there was potential for other watches all people were involved that night to
02:19:11 all people were involved that night to have a meeting with a fight with his Union were you given any materials hand out sheets at that meeting no well you've shown a slideshow or any visuals that there's a very informal meeting there was no handouts given it was more
02:19:26 there was no handouts given it was more about some if we had any questions or concerns about the process because obviously the fabrication have been already very similar process to this in the past and do you remember who that meeting mentioned garnet court believers
02:19:40 meeting mentioned garnet court believers Matt rack and you remember the context in which he meant he mentioned garnet court to you
02:19:51 I think in just in relation to you know similar incidents we've had relating to the incident at Grand Hotel in this country previously did he say anything
02:20:03 country previously did he say anything about what you should understand by what happened at Grant at garnet court no what about other high-rise fires you know what was your takeaway from the meeting you had with the Fire Brigades
02:20:14 meeting you had with the Fire Brigades Union it was more of the case of you know being an FPU member on FB will be fully pursue for supportive of us behind
02:20:25 fully pursue for supportive of us behind this process and terms of our welfare moving forth from that meeting did you talk about any other aspect of the evidence you were going to give that's or any aspect of the evidence you were
02:20:36 or any aspect of the evidence you were going to get at that meeting but before June 2017 you've not heard of garnet Court no right can can I get back
02:20:47 garnet Court no right can can I get back to the built Veeam slideshow please can you please turn to page five will be
02:20:58 you please turn to page five will be showing page five and can that be expanded thank you this is a page which is taken from a regulatory document I won't trouble you with identifying and
02:21:12 won't trouble you with identifying and it's entitled external fire spread what are the issues you can see on the right fires allowed to develop may flash over and break out through windows flame spread up over or through the cladding
02:21:23 spread up over or through the cladding flames can extend over two meters above window opening regardless of cladding and if fire re-enters the building secondary fires may then develop and then in bold at the bottom it is
02:21:34 then in bold at the bottom it is important that facade facade does not contribute significantly to the fire spread now just looking at those topics were they something that you were aware
02:21:47 were they something that you were aware of as at June 2017 as risks in high-rise buildings
02:22:09 I'd say some of them but not all of them no let's take it in stages yeah fires are allowed to develop and they flash over and break up through windows as at June 17 were you aware that that
02:22:20 as at June 17 were you aware that that was a risk I'm aware of flash I was at risk yes
02:22:23 risk yes next one flames spread up all over all through the cladding as a June 2017 were you aware but that was a risk with high-rise buildings no you weren't
02:22:34 high-rise buildings no you weren't next one flames can extend over two meters above window opening regardless of cladding were you aware that that was a risk with high-rise buildings as a 2017 I would say yes but not just
02:22:47 2017 I would say yes but not just specific to high-rise buildings to compile as I spoke about earlier compartment ation windows can fail that's not something unexpected nobody it's a risk that applies to high-rise buildings there's any other yes that's correct
02:22:58 yes that's correct and then the last bullet point if Ferrari enters the building secondary fires may then develop as of June 2017 mr. Damon were you aware that that was a risk in relation to high-rise buildings
02:23:13 I wouldn't be I'd say no as where that risk
02:23:19 risk right and looking we're aware of that as a risk with any sort of buildings because to the labor and it would seem that if you get a fire breaking out in a floor above there's always the risk that
02:23:31 floor above there's always the risk that it will get out and go up the other and yeah so yeah if the five reacts building second mm they may do it yes because that's not a phenomenon that's separate
02:23:43 that's not a phenomenon that's separate to high-rise firefighting that you know and said before the try reference back to compartment fire and you know Jerry windows and doors opens can't fail so I suppose we live with them in mind yes I
02:23:54 suppose we live with them in mind yes I can because what I was aware the kind of effect and how that can improv you got the high-rise and obviously that can't that can't be an issue so I would have to say yes I was aware of that yes but
02:24:06 to say yes I was aware of that yes but that risk is well would you say that that risk there the risk of reentry and then secondary fires developing is particularly acute in the case of
02:24:17 particularly acute in the case of high-rise buildings yes because it also the the high issue of the building yes and then looking at the letters in bold at the bottom it is important that the facade does not contribute significantly
02:24:30 facade does not contribute significantly to the fire spread as at June 2017 were you aware of that principle
02:24:46 no I can't say I was good I wasn't aware that combustible facades will put on the extendable buildings right let's just
02:24:58 extendable buildings right let's just look on in the document the page 15
02:25:07 case study case study 25 Shepherds Bush and there is a picture of a high-rise
02:25:20 and there is a picture of a high-rise building are you familiar with it that ship is cool that Shepherds caught and I just going to turn the pages with you
02:25:33 just going to turn the pages with you very quickly if I can you'll see the case study and the facts are set out first started on seventh floor and two bedroom flat with rapid spread of the fire along the facade fire spring from
02:25:45 fire along the facade fire spring from the seventh floor to the tenth floor with additional damage at the eleven fifteen or twenty pump one APL five Jets and be a fire likely to have started from the tumble dryer which was due to be repaired and then just turning the
02:25:58 be repaired and then just turning the pages on and in first order remember that as an accurate summary of your own experience at Shepards called of my experience yes I'm turning the pages on
02:26:09 experience yes I'm turning the pages on I thought we can just look and see what they show there was preliminary testing which I D like you can ignore but just doesn't know about and then if you turn
02:26:21 doesn't know about and then if you turn the pages on through to page 25 you could see what's between 15 and 25 it's an analysis of what caused the fire in the facade general conclusion let's look
02:26:33 the facade general conclusion let's look at this together as a general principle the external envelope of the building should not contribute in bold to the fire spread along the facade as of June
02:26:45 fire spread along the facade as of June 2017 mister darden were you aware of that principle no new construction material and method of construction are being used in facades and with a limited
02:26:56 being used in facades and with a limited understanding of their fire behavior stroke performance where you were where that that was the case no next one there is aimed bold need to build understand
02:27:08 is aimed bold need to build understand what products are being used in the facade system and their fire behavior and if they are used appropriately and meet the
02:27:15 meet the relevant guidance as at June 2017 mr. Durden were you aware of the need to understand those matters last sentence
02:27:27 understand those matters last sentence these could affect the way buyers develop and spread in a building as a June 2017 were you aware of that
02:27:41 no no I was thank you I think you could put that document away let me just ask you some general questions did you get any
02:27:52 general questions did you get any training or education about the lessons learnt from the Shepherd's caught fire
02:28:06 generally though is it common that fires exit one compartment and spread to the one above I can't say it's a common
02:28:20 one above I can't say it's a common event it does happen it doesn't you know we reference back to trick terrorists that we had the name let spoke about earlier had some changes at night and
02:28:31 earlier had some changes at night and the main one was that because of the height of building a tree tower it has to have a wet riser so that's basically a pipe wonderful network that runs the hole on that building and it's fully charged with water we had a fire on the
02:28:43 charged with water we had a fire on the 27th floor and unfortunately there was a real issue the water supply within that wet riser and we couldn't make a component entry for approximately half an hour and because the construction
02:28:56 an hour and because the construction that billion that contained within the compartment there was no external fire spread it obviously developed on the outside of the building but it didn't spread on the external and that was us a delay real delay because the water
02:29:07 delay real delay because the water supply issues we had getting select compartment let me ask you then a couple more questions about Trellick terror and full of death that up did you understand any differences between the two fires
02:29:19 any differences between the two fires Trellick tower which you attended and Sheppard's caught which you attended so far as compartment ation was concerned
02:29:29 not I would have no knowledge about what the expectation would be the same derelict tower involve a problem with compartment ation so we can use question
02:29:41 compartment ation so we can use question did the Trellick tower fire involve a breach with compa of complementation
02:29:48 yeah the the the fire form understand it breached the compartment ation in such that the windows again would had failed which again is not an uncommon event but
02:30:00 which again is not an uncommon event but it was it was contained and confined to that one compartment cuz there was no external fire split on that property
02:30:10 and you meant you said a minute ago that I may not have got your exact right words you had a fire over 27th floor and there was a problem with the wet riser I
02:30:22 there was a problem with the wet riser I think you said that you had to have a wet riser because of the height of the building do you do as a June 2017 were you aware of at what height or over what
02:30:33 you aware of at what height or over what height a high-rise building has to have a wet riser yes and what is that 50 meters
02:30:39 meters as of 2006 previous tab 260 meters right we'll come back to revisit that in a moment when we look at groennfell tower in particular but before we do as an inn
02:30:55 in particular but before we do as an inn as an incident commander would you have been aware as a June 2017 that fire spread up the exterior of buildings with cladding was a real possibility
02:31:08 cladding was a real possibility no I didn't
02:31:16 is it part of your training as an incident commander I see to be alert to the risk of were aware of the risk of failure of compartment ation because of
02:31:28 failure of compartment ation because of the possibility of fire on the exterior yes that's something I would have to take into account as Nestor come on as
02:31:40 take into account as Nestor come on as at June 2017 were you aware that the LF B had written to a number of London councils saying that external fire
02:31:51 councils saying that external fire spread on high-rise residential buildings as a result of being clad in combustible panels presented a generic health and safety issue did you know that
02:32:05 I'm a member saying some not in telling the earth people I believe in it in a local press in a newspaper about a letter that have been sent to
02:32:16 letter that have been sent to Hammersmith from from Council I believe a common book date that was I think that was referencing it back to the ship was caught fire but not something that was said how internally within the London
02:32:27 said how internally within the London Fire Brigade night reapplied so to say what could could we say that your knowledge was as good as a person in the street about that letter yes sir
02:32:45 as at June 2007 t we do you think you would be able to identify a cladding fire if you saw one
02:33:06 no I wouldn't be on so I didn't fire cannon fire because I didn't know at that point that was being used as a building material we're now going to
02:33:17 building material we're now going to turn to a different topic but one which we've been talking a little bit about this morning which is prior visits to Grenfell tower and I want to talk about your own personal experience of the
02:33:28 your own personal experience of the building prior to that the night of the 14th of June 2017 you say on page two of your statement that you were familiar
02:33:41 your statement that you were familiar with Grendel Tower although you've never visited it for operational that's the first sentence of the third paragraph on that page now just to be clear does that
02:33:54 that page now just to be clear does that mean that you had visited the tower that had never attended a fire there that's correct and you say that it'll lower
02:34:06 correct and you say that it'll lower down the North Kensington watches were asked to visit while Dryden was doing the refurbishment that's correct and was that do you remember was it was that done on a watch by watch basis to
02:34:17 that done on a watch by watch basis to do all the watches go that's correct yeah we were there was a particular thing with it because as I mentioned I must think when they were adding residential floors into the accommodation and because of that they
02:34:28 accommodation and because of that they had to extend the dry rise within that block which is basically a hollow pipe that runs the internal of that building which allows the fire service to basically all men or allow water supply
02:34:39 basically all men or allow water supply into that building and currently that only started a company huntersam sure I think was I over the fall for the fifth floor was that where that's where
02:34:50 fifth floor was that where that's where at that point in time the current residential accommodation started from so watchers were asked to to familiarize themselves with that because we had to change our tactical plan for the
02:35:04 change our tactical plan for the duration of the point of when they were extending that to our eyes er down for the rest of the most natural combination and that the amendments attack plan was
02:35:16 and that the amendments attack plan was that we would have to have for my memory not user to I riser in its where you could finish in its location where it's outside the building the left hand side we've had to halt length of hose up onto
02:35:30 we've had to halt length of hose up onto ground fair walk supplement and almost replicate that being a dry riser into the fourth or the fifth floor where the current July riser first drive Weiser outlet was but that
02:35:42 first drive Weiser outlet was but that was only for a very very short space of time it took two or three days until that dry riser had been extended down to ground floor level and then once that
02:35:53 ground floor level and then once that had been completed we would rid go back to sort of the default on arrival tactics that we would actually plug in to a rising Inlet which was at the bottom of grenfell tower to left and
02:36:05 bottom of grenfell tower to left and main entrance do you remember off the top of your head when that visit was that you looked at the dry riser and it's moving I don't think it was in the same year as as grateful tower I believe
02:36:18 same year as as grateful tower I believe it was in as I say my style believe it was in the summer of 2016 but I can't confirm that but we'll get to look at some detail visit dates in a moment but can I before I do right
02:36:30 can I before I do right how does asking o at any time were you are ever aware of the exact height of Grenville tower
02:36:44 we took the exact height no the only time that would be
02:37:00 I can't on she said I was aware and any moment in time that I was hunting certain of the height of a grove hotel were you ever aware of roughly what the
02:37:11 were you ever aware of roughly what the height yes lovely yeah what was that well you're looking at for memory about winter floors so it's you say it's three
02:37:23 winter floors so it's you say it's three meters per floor so looking at roughly about 60 meters did it ever occur to you that being sixty meters it exceeded the height the for which at which dry risers
02:37:38 height the for which at which dry risers were appropriate
02:37:48 I don't recall where any moment I'm having a conscious thought that that that was a case tonight so you never said or thought hang on a second this
02:37:59 said or thought hang on a second this building exceeds 50 meters what's it doing with the dry riser no I didn't
02:38:08 who was the station manager at North Kensington at the time of your visits I appreciate it may have changed over
02:38:19 I appreciate it may have changed over tonight yeah there was a we did have quite a turnover of station managers through that period now company before the station manager Nick Davis or station manager Andy water Nick day I
02:38:33 station manager Andy water Nick day I was gonna write some names down yep Davis spoke DAV is yes an aunty Walton yes and roughly and I don't pretend to
02:38:48 yes and roughly and I don't pretend to hold you to the tastes but you arrived in North at North Carroll can you give me an idea of who after your arrival there was the station manager up until June 2017 there was my
02:39:02 manager up until June 2017 there was my foot by my first station manager was he's retired now was station manager Daniel Hallisey Daniel Hallisey policy could you do a ll i sey right and then
02:39:17 could you do a ll i sey right and then it went on to Nick Davis right then Andy Walton yes and then after an autumn we had station manager Wayne Johnson Wayne
02:39:30 had station manager Wayne Johnson Wayne Jones yeah and when was who was the station manager at the time of the Grenville tower fire do you remember it was station agent Wayne Johnson it was Wayne Johnson by then again how long had be he being station manager before after
02:39:42 be he being station manager before after taking over from Andy Walton
02:39:46 [Music]
02:39:52 it's only a matter of month for months maybe right okay thanks um when you did
02:40:03 maybe right okay thanks um when you did your visits to Granville tower did you discuss them with the station manager whoever whoever it happened to be
02:40:20 I can't know if there was a specific conversation but there there would have been some kind of confirmation that we had visited the site because obvious there was a request from from the
02:40:31 there was a request from from the station manager to go visit the site I can't with record how it's done verbally or but that was confirmed by email hmm okay can I just go back one just
02:40:42 okay can I just go back one just occurred to me the list of names you've given me it's that's for station managers between February 2006 fit 15 and June 2017 so a period of two and a
02:40:53 and June 2017 so a period of two and a half years in your experience in the London Fire Brigade what can you tell me about the rate of turnover of station managers at North Kensington in in that
02:41:06 managers at North Kensington in in that period I don't open to my point I can't talk about my experience at north kensington so that is quite a high turnover from other offices in that period but that's not something that
02:41:17 period but that's not something that doesn't happen in London Fire Brigade senior officers if they get promoted whether they certain skill set they move on to different areas and that does happen I don't tend to stay within a specific role station in the borough for
02:41:29 specific role station in the borough for a real long period of time okay
02:41:37 now you say in your statements that you think that your watch read watch that is visited in the summer of 2016 did you go on that visit yes I did you
02:41:49 did you go on that visit yes I did you did did you do you recall in do you recall that independently from your own memory or have you seen a document that reminded you of it no I would call that the moment okay now can I just ask you
02:42:00 the moment okay now can I just ask you to look at bundling and a list of visits
02:42:11 that we've been provided with this is lfb zero zero zero zero three one one one and it's two-page document we put it
02:42:31 one and it's two-page document we put it up there on the screen
02:42:34 can I ask you please to look at the read watch visit for the 2nd of February 2016 it's about just
02:42:46 2nd of February 2016 it's about just below halfway down the page and you'll see out there that there are two entries with a top of the same date at different times 12 o'clock and 11 o'clock in the
02:43:00 times 12 o'clock and 11 o'clock in the morning North Kensington and that's read watch and the one at 12 o'clock is outside duty did you see reading across the page high-rise premises 72d yep and
02:43:11 the page high-rise premises 72d yep and then underneath that at 11 o'clock presumably preceded it h f XV group risk visit done yep g2 71 to 72 gram felt our
02:43:23 first of all let's just go through this document starting with the one you did at 11 o'clock which is H F SV group risk visi what is the nature s
02:43:35 visi what is the nature s group list visit so that's a community fire safety based event where we would go to it's not Pacific to to a high-rise
02:43:49 go to it's not Pacific to to a high-rise but we would go to to an area that has been identified as being a high risk in terms of potential of a fire and or
02:44:05 terms of potential of a fire and or vulnerable people have been identified and we would go to that that building that premise and what we would do is we would print off some paperwork to take
02:44:18 would print off some paperwork to take with us and that would allow us to speak to the residents within that block and give them some advice fire safety advice
02:44:28 what to do in the event of a fire and look at some basic fire safety within the home some bad practices general sort of you know I've Logan the sockets
02:44:45 you know bedtime routines what particularly to high rise books what to do anything for the fire in terms of you know referencing that what we spoke to earlier is referencing it back to the
02:44:56 earlier is referencing it back to the statement policy that generally we've been a high-rise block if your your flat is affected you have a fire in your flat and you can it's safe to do so then
02:45:08 and you can it's safe to do so then leave leave you leave your property and make your way safer for the communal areas
02:45:12 areas what does HF pick home fire safety visit home fire safety visit yeah and that's not something that just a group misfit allows us to to go out and identify a
02:45:25 allows us to to go out and identify a larger premise Jemmy of high-rise blocks where we can about words reach our target audience in the most productive
02:45:36 target audience in the most productive way and we do do single dwelling home fire safety visits as well but the G RVs are where we've identified particularly people any vulnerability to fire a high-rise box and that's that we
02:45:48 high-rise box and that's that we facilitate for a good risk visit so because you were said in your answer that you go to an area that has been identified as being a high risk in terms of potential of fire can I just explore
02:45:59 of potential of fire can I just explore that a little bit the risk high risk in terms of potential of fire is that the occupant driven risk or is it a building
02:46:10 occupant driven risk or is it a building that's occupant driven so we we look at this certain identity because P one people on people beyond persons and P one postcodes now that means Priority
02:46:22 one postcodes now that means Priority One so the reference to P one postcode that is anywhere that has had a previous fire a building fire and that then that postcode will flag up as being p1 so
02:46:35 postcode will flag up as being p1 so because of that's happened we generally look at the area for trends if there's other fires and we'll concentrate our our home fire safety boots in that area and P one people are generally
02:46:50 people who have been identified through our agency whether it's alcohol or drug misuse vulnerable residents with its you
02:47:04 misuse vulnerable residents with its you know social housing wherever there's lone parent with children dependents in that that we have certain post codes again where we will
02:47:18 certain post codes again where we will be able to identify that by can't remember the process behind how that is identified but yeah it's looking at certainly post codes where we've had previous fires and also trying to sort
02:47:32 previous fires and also trying to sort of identify the most vulnerable people within the community that would be potentially more susceptible to fire risk and do you remember what it was about Grenfell tower in particular that
02:47:43 about Grenfell tower in particular that made it more vulnerable to rip that kind of risk
02:47:46 of risk I don't know if it was it's grateful tower itself it's more that you know so it was a social housing block and it was
02:47:59 it was a social housing block and it was Pacific that we would maybe target these these high-rise blocks that were of a social health social housing there's nothing the four-mile understanding that would stick out that the risk from the
02:48:12 would stick out that the risk from the building it was more in the actual that people people the rural people potentially decide that block and what kind of detailed information did you have about the makeup of the population
02:48:25 have about the makeup of the population within the block to enable you to come to a decision that it was fight or viewed that it was a part of as high-risk so as to deserve an HF SB visit the only thing I can reference
02:48:38 visit the only thing I can reference that back to and I can't remember that that is the case that actually happened with that visit but it would be the remember had a spreadsheet station that
02:48:49 remember had a spreadsheet station that had post codes that I were identified as risk areas however that would be from we had previous fires or from sort of information gathering that had been done
02:49:01 information gathering that had been done the the concentration of people within that document that area at risk and going back to this the spreadsheet if I
02:49:12 going back to this the spreadsheet if I can then you then do it noon on the 2nd of February 16 outside duty high-rise premises 72 D what was that so an
02:49:25 premises 72 D what was that so an outside Duty is a system that we have in place in London Fire Brigade Pacific it's not just Pacific to high-rise premise so if there's a building or
02:49:37 premise so if there's a building or premise on our stations ground that has a particular compose a particular risk of firefighters then we can go out but by protocol 270 D familiarization visit
02:49:48 by protocol 270 D familiarization visit and we can have a certain information from that block that premise that building allows us to input that onto an
02:49:59 building allows us to input that onto an LF b system in terms of what risks or processes are in that premise that could cause risk to firefighters if we get a instant at that premise now
02:50:13 if we get a instant at that premise now you refer to it in your answer just now is a 72 d familiarization visit but I think some people refer to there's different things can I just understand what you understand yeah is 72 D visit is it the
02:50:25 understand yeah is 72 D visit is it the same as all different from a familiarization visit they're the same thing and 72 D visit is it is is it formal
02:50:35 formal yeah it's a fairly formal process yes okay well we'll come back to that in a minute
02:50:41 minute just in terms of this 72d visit you went
02:50:54 just in terms of this 72d visit you went on that well is there anything that you remember particularly standing here now about what you saw or learnt on that visit
02:51:14 I think if if it was the same one where we went to the reference it back to everywhere extending the dry riser I
02:51:26 think that's the only thing I can read
02:51:33 remember in terms of
02:51:38 okay you say in your statement in fact that you were asked to familiarize yourself with the dry risers and amendments to approaches to the town who asked you to familiarize yourself
02:51:50 who asked you to familiarize yourself with those things from memory was a it was the station manager at a time enough occasion to say that would be mr. Hollister with it I'm sorry Nick date
02:52:04 Hollister with it I'm sorry Nick date with it we wanted to have a Nick Davis or and he walks on social media underwater right right either Nick Davis or angels all right was there a document
02:52:17 or angels all right was there a document that you were given setting out your instructions as to what you should look at on that visit I can't remember do you remember on that visit whether the
02:52:29 remember on that visit whether the building was being refurbished from my memory yes it was were you asked to look at anything else other than the dry risers and the amendments to the approaches on remember on that visit we
02:52:46 approaches on remember on that visit we do have a liaison with a it was the site major or a contractor from ride ins do remember him speaking to us about the
02:52:59 remember him speaking to us about the they had a panel in the ground floor lobby area which was a smoked extract panel system and from my understanding
02:53:10 panel system and from my understanding what how it worked was that you had a detect head in all the Kuna Lobby areas and the flats and how it works is if that commute if that detect a head there's a fire in a compartment smoke
02:53:22 there's a fire in a compartment smoke comes out into a lobby area that detect head will actuate sends signal down to that alarm panel it was show data that there
02:53:33 there - ocean on that floor and they automatic opening event on that floor will should clear any smoke or combination of environment into a protective shaft and then take that the products will fashion
02:53:45 then take that the products will fashion up out of a vent on the top of the Grand Hotel do you remember the name of the site manager or contractor from writing that you spoke to I don't say you told
02:53:59 that you spoke to I don't say you told us about the aov did you learn anything else from writin on that visit about the refurbishment which was relevant to your assessment of fire safety
02:54:13 the only other thing I remember doing is we a there's a boxing gym believe and he he showed us the box and you made look in the boxing gym that's obscene nothing
02:54:24 in the boxing gym that's obscene nothing to do in terms of fire safety measures I think the main thing was the the the smoke extract system that was that was
02:54:37 smoke extract system that was that was also located the panel had was operated how it was how it should operate did you learn anything about the building construction and the materials being
02:54:48 construction and the materials being used not like a recorder did you look at the exterior I would have looked at the exterior did you look at it critically
02:54:59 exterior did you look at it critically they from a fire safety point in the aisle did you notice the rainscreen cladding
02:55:04 cladding I didn't notice around screen lighting as I wasn't aware at that time that there was such thing as a rainscreen cladding no captions are slightly unfair question at the time of your visit in what condition was the exterior was it
02:55:16 what condition was the exterior was it under construction or had it been completed
02:55:25 don't think Adam Karthik he was still under construction did you ask any questions about what was going up on the exterior of the building no did anybody show you around the
02:55:37 no did anybody show you around the building
02:55:45 yeah I think it could be contracted we met on site did show us around the building yes did you go up the tower you got the building
02:56:07 a concours went out the building
02:56:10 did you did you note would you remember noting anything about the layout of the lobbies and the stair
02:56:32 the only time a member I think going into the building I was up at the grand for what used to come in came into this grand felt hour I remember I was in a
02:56:44 grand felt hour I remember I was in a staircase and I think that we were doing the extension to the putting the increase in residential accommodation and we remember being around this a
02:56:55 and we remember being around this a little bit the area and it was like it was boarding sits maybe where they were extending the residential accommodation but I can't remember you know how far I
02:57:06 but I can't remember you know how far I went into the tariff or if it's all I really I really can't call that did you note the fact that have had a single protected escape route come only to that
02:57:19 protected escape route come only to that point in time I don't think I didn't know did you notice anything about whether there were or weren't any sprinklers no did you notice anything about the layout of the lobbies outside
02:57:30 about the layout of the lobbies outside the flats
02:57:37 I do remember that gamma if it was that from that visit or from the night but I always said I do remember that in the lobbies and there were the two I was outlets so from memory as you cannot he
02:57:51 outlets so from memory as you cannot he was in standing in Lobby to your left hand side there was the two eyes were out there did you do you remember having any views at the time of your visit about whether the drive riding an outlet
02:58:03 about whether the drive riding an outlet on each floor in the lobby was in an appropriate place or not no did anybody show you the lifts
02:58:23 I can't record which on the lifts did anybody say anything about whether the lifts were fire lifts or firefighting lifts
02:58:48 remember
02:58:51 we're going to dig a little bit more into the detail and what I get to show you is is polyp this is a number of policies we get a look at GRA 3.2 and 633 but the reason I'm doing it mister
02:59:04 633 but the reason I'm doing it mister darden is so you know so it's really by way of a shopping list and so so you know why I'm asking you can I ask you then to go to GRA 3.2
02:59:15 can I ask you then to go to GRA 3.2 which is policy bundle tab 7 and turn
02:59:29 which is policy bundle tab 7 and turn please internally to page 16
02:59:49 an on page 16 internally page which i think is page 18 in the Aleph in the relativity reference so internal page 16
03:00:05 and this is a list of bullet points which is contained in a passage which starts two pages before which you don't need to look at called key control
03:00:17 need to look at called key control measures planning and somewhere into that section and I should just just say you're clear and I'm clear this is the national guidance information to be gathered in relation to high-rise
03:00:28 gathered in relation to high-rise incidents should include we're gonna see the shopping list and whirling at the top now you've told us this morning that
03:00:39 top now you've told us this morning that you're not familiar with the policy and I understand that but I just want to go down the shopping list to see whether when you did your 72d visit in February 16 whether these items on the shopping
03:00:52 16 whether these items on the shopping list would reject or not first of all access for the siting of appliances firefighters and equipment did you look at that
03:01:21 I'd say yes because we knew where to slightly appliances girdle anyone brew it into great hotel that's grateful Road and we needed to know how to recite that
03:01:33 and we needed to know how to recite that prices in terms of how to supply the dry riser main the next one availability for in of information for firefighters did you look at that
03:01:59 it's quite a broad statement it yes it is it's gonna be no see if I can we get a bit more specific for example when you did your visit did you work out where
03:02:11 did your visit did you work out where you'd find plans to the building
03:02:20 if I want to I can't record that think we did know is that do you remember looking for an infant premises information box
03:02:37 not in that visit but I know that something that generally would be installed in a high-rise premise but do you remember looking on your visit actually going out and looking for it you don't
03:03:04 well how you feel mr. Dunn yeah bright would be nicer that's okay thank you then well then thank you Stu would five minutes be enough for the
03:03:15 would five minutes be enough for the moment yeah and do think what I've said it about what I've said about sitting down if you'd find it more comfortable
03:03:23 all right I'll rise for five minutes
03:03:37 you
03:08:54 you
03:10:53 [Music]
03:11:17 as mr. doe knew happy to carry on yeah we'll be stopping for lunch and for a long keep going on a cake yes sister mr. davon you have to carry on for
03:11:28 mr. davon you have to carry on for others 20 or so minutes yeah if not you want another break just just let me know back to the shopping list if we could please height of building when he went
03:11:41 please height of building when he went on this seven this this visit oh sorry forgive me forgive me we'll come back to that at the moment I did need to ask you about this visit in 2016 who else
03:11:52 2016 who else from red watch visited Grenville tower with you on that that trip
03:12:01 about having the information in front of gaku actually bit of thing the actual sort a list of other attendees in terms of the firefighters knew and our junior officers that were there that were difficult to know to be fair to you
03:12:14 difficult to know to be fair to you mister batter be charlie batter he says he went on it with that that would confirm whoever Carolyn yes right what do you remember were you the most senior person from North Ken read watch on that
03:12:26 person from North Ken read watch on that visit I would have been yes yes can I then get back to the shopping list and ask you what I was going to ask you which was about the height of the building on that visit were you asked or
03:12:38 building on that visit were you asked or did you look at it did you make an assessment of the height of the building
03:12:53 I don't make a never making a conscious decision in terms of that she'll recording the height that building just you know no to understand it was are a horrid ice block and you've answered my
03:13:08 horrid ice block and you've answered my question about lifts can I just ask you about evacuation protocols and you see that there's a bullet point a little lower down evacuation protocols for the building such as a stapler policy phased or full evacuation please see approved
03:13:21 or full evacuation please see approved document b i'm going to ask you about that but the terms of evacuation protocols for building on your visit did you make an assessment of what those evacuation protocols for Grenfell tower
03:13:32 evacuation protocols for Grenfell tower were
03:13:48 I can't record it no no it does this policy does say please see approved document b paragraph 427 got to ask this question really have you ever heard of
03:14:01 question really have you ever heard of approved document b location well evacuation protocols on the subject of evacuation when you did your visit did
03:14:12 evacuation when you did your visit did you find out what the standing advice to residents was in the case of a fire
03:14:32 I may have done I can't record that you know with the interaction I had with the contracts from right under that could have been covered but there's somehow caramel corn fortunately no can I ask
03:14:43 caramel corn fortunately no can I ask you to look at a document it's a photograph in bundle tab 12 you thought the young documents bundle and this is a
03:14:56 the young documents bundle and this is a photograph its references BL a zero zero zero zero two four one six that it's
03:15:09 zero zero two four one six that it's taken by our expert in this enquiry with Barbara Lane dr. barber Lane and it's a photograph taken from between the lifts within Grenville tower after the fire do
03:15:23 within Grenville tower after the fire do does this is this familiar
03:15:33 that particular document isn't familiar however I have seen document that there is a fairly common feature within high-rise block particularly if it's how
03:15:45 high-rise block particularly if it's how - bus you know local authority - and that usually will be in the lobby areas at lifts to inform the residents of what's doing the end of a fire right did
03:15:56 what's doing the end of a fire right did you see that did you see this sign or something like it on your 2016 visit
03:16:05 accomplishes our call saying okay let's just look at the advice it says in the middle if you are safely within your block and there is a fire elsewhere in the block
03:16:14 the block you shouldn't it says you should initially be safe to stay in your flat keeping the doors and windows closed on arrival the fire brigade will make an assessment and will assist with evacuation if required in your
03:16:29 evacuation if required in your experience was that advice normal advice to give to residents in a high-rise block
03:16:45 yes it is did you investigate on your visit what else if anything the building owner had done to ensure that its
03:16:56 owner had done to ensure that its residents understood what to do in the event of a fire
03:17:13 comical that conversation took place now did you investigate whether there were persons in the block whose command of English might might obstruct their understanding of that advice
03:17:37 macoco did you investigate whether there were children in the block who might need help in the event of a need to evacuate
03:17:57 No
03:18:01 did you investigate whether there were any elderly people within the block who might need help getting out
03:18:16 No
03:18:19 and what about people with mobility challenges or more children not far remember no
03:18:34 during your visits did you or your team you with give any particular advice to read the residency you found there about
03:18:46 read the residency you found there about evacuation from a caucus my understanding a building was still in
03:18:57 understanding a building was still in its refurbishment stage so I don't remember interacting or speaking with any residents now all right okay can I ask you to get back to the shopping list
03:19:08 ask you to get back to the shopping list on page 16 of the GRA please and look at
03:19:21 the next item down location control and status of any fixed installation of fire suppression systems and facilities provided for the Fire and Rescue Authority such as fire fighting shafts
03:19:32 Authority such as fire fighting shafts rising mains and ventilation systems to the best of your recollection mr. Dadon do you remember looking at any of those matters or those things on your visit in February 16
03:19:50 that that was something we looked at because the purpose of the visiting detailing that the extension of our wireless it was explained to us about the smoke extract system how it operated
03:20:03 the smoke extract system how it operated yes yes we did did you ask any sorry did you look first of all at the doors between the protected stair and the lobbies
03:20:32 I can't make all that happen say
03:20:37 say you did am i right in thinking that you didn't and you ask anybody about the fire rating for those doors no I mean
03:20:52 fire rating for those doors no I mean why the expectation is they should be a 60 minute fire rate doors but I can't mean with that conversation or I had that conversation I asked that question no and what about the doors the front
03:21:04 no and what about the doors the front doors of the flats leading out from the individual flats in Granville Tower to the to the lobbies did you ask about how those were fire rated Nicole no again
03:21:22 looking at the next bullet point down location control and status of any fixed installations sorry I looked about the layout of compartmentalization and size of the building including specific
03:21:33 of the building including specific features such as atria or security features such as grilles or reinforced doors I'm interested in layout compartmentalization and size of the building on your visit in February 2016
03:21:45 building on your visit in February 2016 did you did unit look and gather information about that
03:22:22 I think I can't be sure this because also we do have a number of high-rise blocks and on off getting his ground so I think there was a conversation in
03:22:33 I think there was a conversation in terms of how to access the main entrance into twelve tower I can't be specific even if it was on that visit or
03:22:44 even if it was on that visit or something that we generally would ask on a three liberalization so our eyes block because obviously it's the secure access because it's a residential block and generally the terms of security features unless this isn't generally specific
03:22:57 unless this isn't generally specific just at groennfell tower you're our access will be by what we call an express key and so allows firefighters to override that and enter into our highways premise what yeah a secure a
03:23:10 highways premise what yeah a secure a literal premise yes yes we're gonna come back to that Express keys that letting the Dropkick drop clean your clock II I'll come back to the drop key and it surely good well I'm still on this list
03:23:21 surely good well I'm still on this list I'll just stick to it just a couple down you see the effectiveness of communications and identification of any radio blind spots did you did you work
03:23:32 radio blind spots did you did you work on your visit did you look at that
03:23:56 Danika we'll call that something that happen now no next one building construction features such as the presence at location of maser net style
03:24:07 presence at location of maser net style constructions sandwich panels timber framing cladding systems surface mounted trunking ducting and voids in addition to features which present a specific hazards such as asbestos now that's a
03:24:21 hazards such as asbestos now that's a fairly long list of things that you're required to look at in relation to building construction features the question is when you went on your 72 d visit in February 2016 did you look at
03:24:35 building construction features generally first of all
03:24:56 again asana I can't a corner ain't getting on with the list - I'm going to ask about sammich panels and cladding systems is that going to be the last moment yes because I think the witness
03:25:08 moment yes because I think the witness might welcome another break very well these are quite important questions mr. Chekov would you rather break no that's great production let's come back let's bring now mr. dad I'm sorry I'm in the
03:25:19 bring now mr. dad I'm sorry I'm in the middle of a question but I think I think it's probably right that you have a break we all have a break so look mr. Chen I'm in your hands well in that case we'll stop for lunch now we resume at
03:25:30 we'll stop for lunch now we resume at 2:15 usual but you've all been sitting there for quite a long time mr. Darden just remember what I said earlier then talk about the matters with
03:25:42 earlier then talk about the matters with which I'll give it to it you're giving evidence or being quiet or anything else football all right - 15