Watch Manager Michael O'Keeffe gives evidence about his role as bridgehead commander during the Grenfell Tower fire, describing rescue coordination, communication failures, and the emergency evacuation of the bridgehead.
00:00:10 [Music]
00:00:19 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing now we're going to resume in a moment but mr. O'Keeffe I think morning mr. chairman yes please if we can have the witness back in please
00:00:48 [Music]
00:01:01 good morning mr. king
00:01:07 morning morning mr. O'Keefe thank you very much for coming back this morning mr. O'Keefe can I just go back to something that we discussed yesterday at
00:01:19 something that we discussed yesterday at Friday afternoon about the rescue on the 16th floor carried out by firefighters Stern and Hipple and just for the
00:01:31 Stern and Hipple and just for the transcript I would refer to pages 1 3 1 2 1 3 2 where I asked you about the debrief they gave you when they came
00:01:43 debrief they gave you when they came back down to the bridgehead and I asked you what impression you got from the debrief that ritual Hipple gave you about the success of the rescue then you said it was unsuccessful I believe and
00:01:55 said it was unsuccessful I believe and he was shocked that the 16th floor was on fire now I just want to ask you something about that about that debrief mr. hippo has provided a a statement to
00:02:08 mr. hippo has provided a a statement to the inquiry which will obviously explore with him and he comes to give evidence in which he says that he believed at the time that he had rescued a man and that
00:02:20 time that he had rescued a man and that he thought that the man that he'd rescued was the man that he had been asked to go and assist as having been reported trapped on the 60th floor so he
00:02:31 reported trapped on the 60th floor so he thought he'd he'd rescued that man
00:02:39 going back to it when he came down and did his debrief did he say anything to you to the effect that he had rescued the man he had been sent to rescue which
00:02:51 the man he had been sent to rescue which was the subject of an FSG called I'm not required exactly what he said when he said that he had met I had followed somebody else on the way up on the air void right to that effect right did the
00:03:04 void right to that effect right did the actual words I can't recall the actual Wars of the news - they came looking back on it and just trying your best remembered did mr. hip will give you the impression that he had rescued the
00:03:16 impression that he had rescued the trapped male that he had been sent to rescue I got he had rescued somebody with the impression I got right if I
00:03:27 with the impression I got right if I could put it in context at that very time we were greatly understaffed in the bridgeheads it was the very beginning of the he of
00:03:44 it was the very beginning of the he of the change in the incident from being a normal high resin fire to one of multiple courts our rescue and as the bridgehead commander I was trying to
00:03:56 bridgehead commander I was trying to process a significant amount of information and coordinate rescues and firefighting all at one time yes it
00:04:07 firefighting all at one time yes it wasn't controlled as controlled as it could be but to recall individual conversations a year later is quite difficult for me to recall the exactness
00:04:19 difficult for me to recall the exactness of all were said yes I understand entirely looking back on it I don't want to press too hard if you don't remember but looking back on it is it possible that you have that he did debrief to you
00:04:32 that you have that he did debrief to you that the mission to rescue the trapped man on the 16th floor had been successful here as possible is it possible that therefore you didn't redeploy a crew to the 16th floor to
00:04:43 redeploy a crew to the 16th floor to rescue the man who had been reported traps it is possible but can you remember no all right thank you very much
00:04:58 now on Friday afternoon you and I were discussing an end for the reference its pages 179 and 180 of the transcript and you were telling us mr. O'Keefe about
00:05:10 you were telling us mr. O'Keefe about the move of the bridgehead from the second floor to the third floor now can I take you to your statement yeah at page 13 and ask you please to look at
00:05:23 page 13 and ask you please to look at the third paragraph
00:05:32 and you say there that you went back down to Richard Welch this is after your survey of the third floor that you
00:05:44 survey of the third floor that you described in the second paragraph on that page and told us about on Friday afternoon at the transcript reference they gave and you say I spoke to him and said that the third floor was viable so he then gave the order to move the bridgehead to the third floor all the
00:05:56 bridgehead to the third floor all the crews went there we took all our breathing apparatus and all the information from the wall I don't know how the information was moved it may have been photographed there just
00:06:07 have been photographed there just pausing there in the sense how else could it have been moved if not photographed because I didn't physically see it happening right say what do you
00:06:19 see it happening right say what do you say it may have been photographed is that a recollection you have no it's it's it's it's an assumption okay is it the only way we could move the FSG first
00:06:31 the only way we could move the FSG first of our guidance information I'd been on to that point written on the wall as we couldn't physically remove the wall we'd have to follow aggressive and that's what we would do yes do you remember who
00:06:43 what we would do yes do you remember who assisted you in moving the information from the wall from the second to the third no and I'll tell you why and because I went to the third floor then before everybody was I had moved with
00:06:57 before everybody was I had moved with group manager Goldberg part of courtroom and stage manager got a carrot cook and my understanding is that they wanted to
00:07:09 my understanding is that they wanted to make an assessment of my assessment barriers as they were senior officers to make sure that I hadn't I suppose misjudged our having to optimistic about pushing upwards into the foyer and for
00:07:21 pushing upwards into the foyer and for them it will be necessary for them to have to come with me into I remember having a conversation again I don't remember the exact conversation I both the boy ability of pushing the
00:07:32 the boy ability of pushing the bridgehead opposed to this to that location so I wouldn't have seen the preparation to move I think so the preparation to move was happening was it while you were on the third floor have when I started again as
00:07:44 third floor have when I started again as I see I understand you then say in the next sentence we drew a system of FSG maps on the wall corresponding to the building and the number of people there who did the drawing that would be the
00:07:59 who did the drawing that would be the that would be the engine control team which would be a number of firefighters and I watched manager in the civil right who I eat a llamar aspects of the
00:08:12 who I eat a llamar aspects of the bridgehead on those aspects of the bridgehead which will be cleaning up was back breathing apparatus entry control and forests of where the guidance recording okay and you then go on to say
00:08:29 recording okay and you then go on to say when the new bridgehead was established they were now for VA boards in operation was that the first time that they were for I don't think so but that's I've never seen quite a few I was quite an
00:08:42 never seen quite a few I was quite an unusual sight to see so many lies DEA agent all boards are in one location right but that's to be said I'm clear be a boards for be a wearers correct time
00:08:54 a boards for be a wearers correct time okay what about forward information boards how many of those did you have the reason the ward they were too small I see okay yeah I admitted to originally
00:09:05 I see okay yeah I admitted to originally at the very beginning when the incident incident started to deteriorate and fire fighter or burn indicated to me that the
00:09:17 fighter or burn indicated to me that the forward information board had become full and there's no longer usable their last in the trans trans trans myth of
00:09:29 last in the trans trans trans myth of remove the information onto a wall onto the wall because we need a more space we gents are the number of people requiring rescue outstrips the ability to use the
00:09:43 rescue outstrips the ability to use the template yes so that was the system that we were use who wants trying laws sensei just so I'm clear the forward information board system never came back into operation not to my knowledge right that's my
00:09:55 not to my knowledge right that's my knowledge okay Thank You Klaus you now to turn onto page 14 and in the second paragraph there you describe in some detail what happened with fire fighter
00:10:08 detail what happened with fire fighter hills whose Anzu automatic distress signal went off and in the next paragraph you say group manager Richard Welch was somewhere in the building and he was listening as he then came running
00:10:20 he was listening as he then came running up the stairs he asked me what was going on and I explained I've got an emergency team ready Jim Welch asked me should i initiate a firefighter emergency I responded to him that he should yes now
00:10:32 responded to him that he should yes now he was group manager correct to your way of thinking we'll see the incident commander at that point I thought he was thought he was and did do you know why he asked you whether he should make that
00:10:45 he asked you whether he should make that decision because I had the information I see I transmitted a priority message from the prayer I first of all I tried to find firefighter Hills to see if anybody knew who he was right I no one
00:10:57 anybody knew who he was right I no one recognized the name and we had treated the firefighter would collapse he was the first one of many to collapse I'm not noise who was found in the stair
00:11:12 I'm not noise who was found in the stair in the park was some part of the building and the destroyit a today's beer crew brought into the bridgehead and he was treated at the Bridgette BIOS
00:11:25 and he was treated at the Bridgette BIOS with oxygen and the crew they found him looking okay if I could have found him I
00:11:36 looking okay if I could have found him I asked him to remove him from the bridge sure because I didn't have time or space to treat an injured firefighter and I wanted him to get medical care so he was removed or what actually happened was
00:11:47 removed or what actually happened was his tally from his PSA which had been apparently abandoned somewhere in the upper part of the building his tally was still
00:11:56 still in the board I see and when he's being accepted into alarm one of the be here to control officers showed it to me Gardner we've got somebody going to
00:12:08 Gardner we've got somebody going to alarm one tally for our hills and I I caught him in the shut up and listen does anyone know Far Far Hills everyone said no I got on the radio asking people
00:12:20 said no I got on the radio asking people knew before the hits come back to me you know immediately no one came back so crude natural works was listening to that when he heard my message it was a
00:12:32 that when he heard my message it was a priority message in fact and he came running up the stairs and he said what's going on I told him and as far as I was concerned as the British I commanded we
00:12:44 concerned as the British I commanded we were missing a firefighter yeah and so he showed it to me he was a lot of noise in the building at the time should I know to terraform father mozian like I said to him yes you should know the
00:12:55 said to him yes you should know the terrifying part of it it was done in a very officious way that's quite a significant thing to do it as an incident surface he made the command decision that you what he was what I was don't he made a command decision yeah
00:13:07 don't he made a command decision yeah now I wouldn't give senior officer
00:13:12 understand now just to go back to command at the bridgehead is it right that at some point group managing Patton Goulbourne joined you at the third floor bridgehead he came up beforehand he may
00:13:26 bridgehead he came up beforehand he may have been there at other times be came up with station manager cook and yeah I may run the bridgehead then did he what role did he play at the bridgehead
00:13:41 what role did he play at the bridgehead not that I was aware of right okay saying he was coming back and forth we'll see but you actually came on a couple of occasions yeah all right and if you go on at page 14 you say
00:13:59 towards the bottom it was during this time and this is the rescue of firefighter hill but the bridgehead cruising I wish a mobile footage fainted
00:14:12 cruising I wish a mobile footage fainted for mobile phone video footage of the building's exterior we could see that the entire building was alight just above the third floor yes that's correct do you mother who showed you that yes it
00:14:24 do you mother who showed you that yes it was mission manager cook cook and he wasn't the only one but he used the one I remember I guess we hadn't we he said that this is what it looks like bell goes in our dreams it was important
00:14:35 goes in our dreams it was important information for us right because we were in the table we couldn't see the outside of the building we could feel the heat you know you could feel that it was a general heat in the building and you feel I suppose the energy I got
00:14:46 feel I suppose the energy I got difficult to describe but the entire building was alight we were inside it so there it has a certain band he's a certain physicality to us I'm sure and I was I was amazed when I saw
00:15:01 sure and I was I was amazed when I saw the footage to be honest with him was the footage medium footage video footage a mobile phone on the television program also I don't know but it was it
00:15:14 program also I don't know but it was it was no it could have been a personal video I don't know but it was it was a very good footage right I possibly possibly media because of the the shot was taken from a distance right but it
00:15:26 was taken from a distance right but it shocked us because at to this point we were focused on our jobs of command and control and and search and rescue and to see the the whole building alive just
00:15:39 see the the whole building alive just stomp us we ever seen anything like the holes on your career ever I've never been in that a building that was entirely allowed before I've been in Billings was for my pretty much alike
00:15:51 Billings was for my pretty much alike but not like that you know [Music]
00:16:00 so you say you were stunned is it is it the case that incident commanders hadn't been keeping you at the bridgehead informed and updated as to what was
00:16:11 informed and updated as to what was going on on the exterior I wouldn't say that it was just that we didn't have a visual we were told okay right so you know the firefighters fire fighters are great communicators and that's everybody because we that's how
00:16:24 that's everybody because we that's how we we walk together and every crew that was coming in and all the fresh crews were telling us the whole place is going wood that was that what does that mean until you actually see it yes listen you
00:16:35 until you actually see it yes listen you know so to see it visually compounders the verbal communication right and when you saw it visually and got the impression of what was happening when
00:16:48 impression of what was happening when viewed from the outside did you did you have any thoughts about any change to the strategy you were adopting no and if I could just impress upon you where my
00:16:59 I could just impress upon you where my function is as a richer commander it's a coordinated search and rescue in firefighting and that's what I use determined to carry on doing disappoint what was going to happen you know trophy
00:17:11 what was going to happen you know trophy incidence yes and you say in the next sentence at the same time the bridgehead was getting was becoming very close and more smoky and was did that suddenly
00:17:24 more smoky and was did that suddenly happen or was that some noise you know there was I mean there was a lot of rescues going on at the time you could hear people saying casualty casualty you
00:17:35 hear people saying casualty casualty you know that's the show-me we use to get priority to the crews coming down with people I can see because I've taken up a position where I could see the VA wearer's like to see to behave their control teams or on the right-hand side
00:17:46 control teams or on the right-hand side of me I was a deterrent to the stairwell I can see people coming down with casualties when I hear that I'd look doors are opening you know you'll get
00:17:58 doors are opening you know you'll get smoke travel downwards as people start to egress from the building [Music]
00:18:04 [Music] and then you go on to say suddenly a signal was given to evacuate I don't know who cooled that who called this there's a lot of shouting people running away from the bridgehead it was at about
00:18:15 away from the bridgehead it was at about that time that you moved the bridgehead down to the ground floor there was an evacuation there was an emergency evacuation I do to be able to enjoy I just saw as I my position like I saw the first time I saw the fire photos looked
00:18:27 first time I saw the fire photos looked like they were panicking and everyone just ran under my left hand so I started running and it was a general alarm raised like and I looked for her it was a guy came running up I don't I don't
00:18:38 a guy came running up I don't I don't know who it was it was a whether it was a foreign fighter or an officer because he had no helmet on I think just saying get out get out the fire except with the fires around us I thought it he said it
00:18:49 fires around us I thought it he said it was better was there was smoke there I knew it was smoke in the end and so we were in the lobby of the third floor I knew it was smoke in the apartments
00:19:00 knew it was smoke in the apartments there there's a guy one of the firefighters they kicked the door open air around it was full of smoke yes I shot it to keep us in in a clean air as best as we could yes and everyone
00:19:12 air as best as we could yes and everyone started to run I didn't hear it when we have an emergency evacuation will use it's a good referee's whistle every firefighter carries one an ACME timer a
00:19:24 firefighter carries one an ACME timer a whistle if you hear us the signal used to eat is short blasts we all do it so everyone hears a chain reaction I didn't hear that I just saw people running and
00:19:35 hear that I just saw people running and yeah you referred a moment ago to the firefighter kicking in a door on the third floors yeah coming out do you remember whereabouts on the third floor batter dunes where southeast southeast
00:19:46 batter dunes where southeast southeast yeah okay specifically remember right okay and did you remember saying fat old we're hearing about fire in that apartment I saw smoke in there now I not
00:19:58 apartment I saw smoke in there now I not figured a movie where we were right and I remonstrating with the firefighter you know not to do things like this me not unless you get it an order or an instruction to do it because I've had would compromise us
00:20:10 would compromise us and you know even he was just he was curious I don't know what he said to me at the time but I shocked that I had a quick look around the apartment there's nobody in there I just shut the door right and that was that right
00:20:22 right and that was that right and how was this how was the smoke in that up in that gray smoke well you know you it was a fire nearby yeah
00:20:35 so when you came down to the ground floor as you described in the third paragraph on page 15 yeah
00:20:46 what were the conditions like down on that floor a bit hectic I thought the terms of the air quality was okay the air quality was okay right at that time
00:20:57 air quality was okay right at that time and before you went down there you say at the very top of page 15 in the second line I asked my crew to use their mobile phones to photograph all the information on boards correct yeah and they did that
00:21:08 on boards correct yeah and they did that did they did better had you rember who did that I think you refer back to the evidence from last week it was Justin are born as you said in his evidence there were photographs of the wall yes I
00:21:21 there were photographs of the wall yes I didn't know until that time of abuse at the last week that it was Justin or burn well when Wendy goes round on the Left I stopped my goings rolling because we had all the be a Boris and and they
00:21:34 all the be a Boris and and they information on the wall and they asked someone to use a camera just be my age and they sound they didn't laugh but they just look to be fondly and then I said actually bought my phone so one photograph - I don't know who did it but
00:21:46 photograph - I don't know who did it but no I know it was Farrah Fowler burn [Music]
00:21:53 and at that stage the move from the third floor to the first to the ground floor yeah do you know in general terms what far fighting the strategy was being adopted
00:22:05 fighting the strategy was being adopted I don't when when we when we move to the ground floor the information over seems
00:22:17 ground floor the information over seems that group manager Park or burn was the fire sector commander names the in overall command of what was happening in the tour I know I at this stage we had
00:22:34 the tour I know I at this stage we had it was only a DBA should that would be significant change in the inactivity no standard duration crews any longer that
00:22:45 standard duration crews any longer that were apparent to me and I know if coupons record burn was trying to introduce fire fighting Jets
00:22:56 introduce fire fighting Jets to protect the firefighters primarily and to do firefighting but we needed an escape route ourselves and that's where we were then we need to ensure that the
00:23:07 we were then we need to ensure that the firefighters up in the tower could escape themselves that was my understanding they were covering Jets right at this stage again moving from
00:23:18 right at this stage again moving from the third floor to the ground yes was that was there any idea that you might even at that stage be able to bring the fire under control no we were never going to get that fire under control then ever can I just ask you to look at
00:23:32 then ever can I just ask you to look at page 15 of your statement you know where [Music]
00:23:40 you say in the fourth paragraph I began working with my team yeah assisted by two new crew managers to record all FSG information and numbers now I drew a
00:23:52 information and numbers now I drew a crude map on the wall and described all the new and received fire Survival Guide number and information I just Group drew a crude map and put lines out to the side to all the
00:24:03 lines out to the side to all the corresponding flat numbers and corresponding numbers of people maybe go on to say I began to fill the whole wall very rapidly Lynn Williams from Fulham was also doing the same thing on another wall in a different section of the lobby now just just just pausing there's quite
00:24:16 now just just just pausing there's quite a lot of information that I just want to unpick with you if I can first of all do you remember who the crew the new crew managers were I don't remember his name I know I'm going to speak to I couldn't think it was in fact
00:24:28 speak to I couldn't think it was in fact he may have been the attempted watch manager he was wearing a I think I think he had a yellow helmet on but there were two new guys that were helping us out
00:24:39 two new guys that were helping us out right one glade was quite clear blocky going quite a while boots dark hair don't remember his name walked with him great help really need
00:24:50 walked with him great help really need it at the time simp the other guy because we were overwhelmed when we got to the ground floor as soon as it became a the number of people requiring rescue
00:25:07 a the number of people requiring rescue seemed to rise dramatically as the fire escalated rapidly from that point so I needed help certainly and we needed help I should sir do you have do you happen
00:25:20 I should sir do you have do you happen to know which Fire Station sees the I wouldn't even say that's it okay now you you say you drew a crude map on the wall
00:25:33 you say you drew a crude map on the wall yeah
00:25:33 yeah Shanee and transcribe over new and received first by the guidance members and information do you remember which wall in the lobby it was I do which one so when you come down the
00:25:46 which one so when you come down the stairs and the last step on the lobby floor was where we positioned ourselves we position ourselves it would have been
00:25:58 we position ourselves it would have been if I'm facing the stairs here so write an ad the termination on the stairs right then one dot wall did you this may sound a strange question but there are
00:26:09 sound a strange question but there are two different paint colors in the lobby one is green and one is white do you remember whether you were claimed to have a green wall or a white wall I couldn't turn it okay now you transcribe
00:26:20 couldn't turn it okay now you transcribe you say you transcribed all the new and receive fire survival guidance numbers in terms of the received ones first of all we were you how are you doing that I
00:26:31 all we were you how are you doing that I was physically getting pieces of paper which in which you should where you have you produce in evidence last week yes so the officers and firefighters running and handing me pieces of paper right
00:26:43 and handing me pieces of paper right physically putting it in my hand right I would say that I don't know if you you probably happen in your evidence but Jim Williams the watch manager who had been writing stuff on the wall his wife went
00:26:55 writing stuff on the wall his wife went into labor and he was called away from the incident years so anything that he was doing was know obsolete it was all trapped there passed on to me to me leave my crew okay I was going to ask
00:27:07 leave my crew okay I was going to ask you I was going to ask you about him in a minute
00:27:09 a minute before I do you do you you say you drew a crude map you transcribe all the new and receive first Survival Guide s numbers what about the numbers and the information you've got on the third
00:27:21 information you've got on the third floor and we're bringing down yeah we're writing out at the other parts of the team that we were walking away up there and we'll pay it took that from their phones I started writing it up on the wall okay and you know who is doing that
00:27:33 wall okay and you know who is doing that writing the new officer is the which is the phone - there a minute ago okay so so I've got this clear in my head there is the information going up onto the walls that you were overseeing
00:27:44 onto the walls that you were overseeing on the ground floor was coming from the photographs on the phones taken on the third floor and the pieces of paper being run incorrectly is that that's right I couldn't say precisely why I can
00:27:56 right I couldn't say precisely why I can give you the actuality of it is that and the information that we had was reduced to a new space on the wall downstairs yes and you say Jim Williams from Fulham
00:28:09 yes and you say Jim Williams from Fulham was also doing the same thing on another wall in the different section of the lobby was he was he doing that when you came down or what had he already been Gavin no he was doing it I mean we were on I mean from one o'clock when they
00:28:20 on I mean from one o'clock when they were from about 10 past 1:00 in the morning
00:28:22 morning whatever time went into the building with the guys I didn't was we never came downstairs from from that moment we were all either on their second or third floor off yo quarter that's when we were
00:28:33 floor off yo quarter that's when we were walking there was only after the emergency evacuation of the bridge sheds the actual bridge change to ground floor that ice I I saw in the first person I saw when I came down the stairs was Ken
00:28:44 saw when I came down the stairs was Ken Williams listen and he was facing me I mean I could see immediately what he was doing I see that was the first time you saw that he was also recording first correct and how long did he stay there
00:28:56 correct and how long did he stay there before he was called away do you remember not too long not too long you see beside I can't give it again a kind of an exact time right because all of that time is compressed until there's sort of an event I can't turn I don't
00:29:10 sort of an event I can't turn I don't know did you speak to Glen Williams to pool your information no I didn't I brief conversation right he was quite animators did you check
00:29:22 he was quite animators did you check with him whether there was overlap or any differences no okay can I just ask you to look at one or two photographs yes I'm going to ask the documents
00:29:33 yes I'm going to ask the documents manager to put up any tea triple zero one five eight one five this is a an exhibit
00:29:42 exhibit into a statement from a witness called the Silvo who hasn't been called yet yeah I just want to ask you about the photographs and to see whether this is something you recognize as FSG on the
00:29:56 something you recognize as FSG on the wall either on the third floor or indeed second floor or on the ground floor I don't recognize it because there I've seen a lot of that on the night that that type of thing without that
00:30:07 that type of thing without that specifically right and if you look at the right-hand side of the picture yeah in the shaft of sunlight you could see it what looks like a crude drawing of a
00:30:19 it what looks like a crude drawing of a tower block I drew that that you drew that yeah okay and I ate aliens the one I drew I don't know I think I did draw a towel like this on the ground floor but
00:30:32 towel like this on the ground floor but that might not be the hook tolerating how many I'm sorry how many times do you think you drew a tower like I was on from that point I was just I thought functions as as a as command and control
00:30:44 functions as as a as command and control right but when they went to the to the ground floor for some reason I would say because I was so many officers down the stairs when I went down there and blue
00:30:57 stairs when I went down there and blue magic up parkour Burrell was in charge of that area right then I was able to step out of that role and people just have to hang me pieces of paper I suppose I was I was trying to coordinate
00:31:09 suppose I was I was trying to coordinate the team that I had I know I was trying to get them just to carry on as we wore upstairs but we became absorbed into a bigger command area right don't you say
00:31:21 bigger command area right don't you say you drew that that tower not that again I
00:31:25 I that is the one I drew doesn't look it looks similar that main main up here right okay there maybe if you look to the left and another one just higher up into the left in the picture again is
00:31:38 into the left in the picture again is that what might that be I don't do to speculate but do you remember whether that's something you true no that could be that could be either Glenn Williams or a bottom Angelou the silver right okay let me
00:31:49 Angelou the silver right okay let me just see if I can look at another picture it's the next one or number 16 say one five eight one six we can now
00:32:00 say one five eight one six we can now this is on the green wall so we know this is this is I think take it from me at the moment that this is in on the ground floor this is on the ground floor
00:32:11 ground floor this is on the ground floor workers yeah well this will be part of what we were doing on their face and looking at that grid do you know who drew that no okay I know one of the officers do a grid on
00:32:22 I know one of the officers do a grid on my left hand side he's drawing a gradient right and this tall that's not a picture of a tower it it has information about call sign and then s
00:32:34 information about call sign and then s DBA or a DBA time brief and time out do you have any times on an actual time zones by date what I mean to ask you I think is do you
00:32:46 what I mean to ask you I think is do you recognize that not immediately I'd be honest with you were the the amount of writing that was me up on the wall was quite considerable yeah and I find it was too much trying to
00:32:59 and I find it was too much trying to brief crews were quite stressed before they went up there so well I I drew was a picture of a tower like a pictogram as simple as that simply as I possibly could also which I'm senior okay and
00:33:13 could also which I'm senior okay and what about the information in the in white at the top 183 daughter 21:22 you know you know that's about next picture then please mr. Keith can I
00:33:25 next picture then please mr. Keith can I just sort of circle judgment are you comfortable giving your evidence I am sorry you didn't feel you need a break
00:33:30 break no no I'm absolutely fine I couldn't relax in the gun so I'm very good thanks okay okay do thank you thank you well thank you very much can I just ask you to look at the next picture which is one five eight one seven and again here on
00:33:44 five eight one seven and again here on the green wall we can see very faintly what it looks like it okay that's mine our glass yours is it a toy yeah what I was doing was putting up Thai and Python lines from the floors I need to know
00:33:56 lines from the floors I need to know truth from floor three or ports to simplify things far as I said for the foreign fighters so they would have a
00:34:07 foreign fighters so they would have a visual of where they would be in the tower right it was their horizontal lines with the flat numbers and when a flat had been searched or if there was
00:34:19 flat had been searched or if there was somebody was deceased I would put across rulers from necks and that information say just so I can focus in terms of tiny
00:34:31 say just so I can focus in terms of tiny youth it and they come down to the ground floor yeah and I'm assuming the moment that this is on the ground floor you can put that there is that right yeah and the
00:34:44 that there is that right yeah and the lines out are the ones you put yeah like yeah just had the numbers of the figure and try it like a child's pictogram drawing of a tower and then four lines
00:34:55 drawing of a tower and then four lines of horizontal lines from the floor number and that would indicate the the flat numbers you know you can see the
00:35:07 flat numbers you know you can see the flat numbers the numbers above oh listen and if you look at 14 you can see a line out from that can you help interpret what is on that line it's very difficult
00:35:19 what is on that line it's very difficult to read actually whether they never know a big flat numbers
00:35:25 can't be much more than that right and there's a ring round one of the numbers deep do you know whatever that is I
00:35:36 can't really it was you and as I say it was used to signify destination for a
00:35:48 was used to signify destination for a DBA Cruz right with numbers of persons in the flats I think I put diagonally lines off and I can't see the bride analyzer indicating the number of people
00:36:02 analyzer indicating the number of people in there
00:36:02 in there okay house you can plan away from that then and to see whether there are diagonal lines with not the numbers of people
00:36:15 it's hard to tell do you remember whether that information was information that was fed to you freshly when you would arrive the ground floor or where it was transposed from photographs taken from the third floor
00:36:27 photographs taken from the third floor by the by those with cameras on the third floor before you move I would say on the left and right hand side of the tower that would be the case the tower itself Oh drew was all the new and
00:36:41 itself Oh drew was all the new and updated weather information which we were it wasn't in every few minutes it was a negative every second we're getting new information right so seemed
00:36:52 getting new information right so seemed like that to me anyone saleable just to be clear on the left of the right so to the left of the picture you could see another list of numbers and ticks that's information that came down from the third floor is it possibly and then I
00:37:05 third floor is it possibly and then I don't want to put the idea in your head like I just want to clarify what you remember about that so you say on the left of the right just perhaps I can get
00:37:16 left of the right just perhaps I can get it at this way can you just point out to us where on which lists or groups of information on this picture came down from the third floor and were copied onto this wall I can't say for certain I
00:37:28 onto this wall I can't say for certain I would say on the left and the left-hand side of the wall would have been taken from the third floor yes and that's that would be the most accurate recollection I can give you that's very helpful thank you and on the right hand side of the
00:37:41 you and on the right hand side of the possibly me I can't recall okay I would say actually it was me right do you know whose handwriting that is in the bottom
00:37:53 whose handwriting that is in the bottom right hand corner [Music]
00:37:58 no I mean I kind of I can't read that yeah we'll look that's why I asked you okay all right let's if I was standing in the tower right now I'm looking at it like a pub probably teller it was minor and if it were or if it wasn't but
00:38:11 and if it were or if it wasn't but that's all I can say that's not your handwriting I don't know I can't see if I mean looks a bit scribbly I lied my way put my handwriting is a bit Stribling though that it possibly is what does it say do you know what I did I think it says dead
00:38:24 you know what I did I think it says dead body and then something like yeah well I was aware from Cruz that there were deceased throughout the building at various points and when that was from
00:38:35 various points and when that was from quite earlier on but it was becoming more prevalent Cruz will require reporting so I was trying to tell Cruz going up where the deceased works world
00:38:46 going up where the deceased works world to building and then common hallway and I just got to ask you about one more picture oh the mayor I may have to come back to this but I just want to ask you about one more picture if I can miss
00:38:57 about one more picture if I can miss jakey's that's okay and that's a meaty triple zero one five eight two zero
00:39:18 but this is I this is [Music]
00:39:26 it looks as if you and if you compare it with the previous photograph it looks as if this is more of the information to the left of the pictogram that we saw in
00:39:37 the left of the pictogram that we saw in the last photograph can you can you help with that with what this is all of the information pardon me all of that information every single piece patient
00:39:49 information every single piece patient information that's up there will be above FSG yes a lot of people where people are thought to be located numbers of people traveling right and but let me
00:40:02 of people traveling right and but let me just see if I can get do this I'm sorry to take up with me that's final time we'll listen you take your time if you just get back to the prophetic graph before mr. documents director which is
00:40:13 before mr. documents director which is one five eight one seven you look at the
00:40:22 yes now if you look at the left hand picture you do a comparison that's where we see the pictogram in the middle as you say you drew the lines coming out and to the left of it we've got a list
00:40:33 and to the left of it we've got a list with the ticks and now if we look at a right hand image you can see the list with the ticks and I think just the edge
00:40:46 with the ticks and I think just the edge of the pictograms towards the very right hand side of the picture and then over moving towards the left towards verses 1 5 3/18 in the big ring that information
00:40:58 5 3/18 in the big ring that information do you know where that came from no okay did you write that up there I don't recall I did a lot of writing but I don't recall it exactly when I written but when you write your pictogram up
00:41:11 but when you write your pictogram up there was that was the green wall clear of writing or was there already why not would've been clearer raising was no
00:41:17 was no you know we just started writing as soon as we had to evacuate the third floor we we we didn't wanna delay and we just set up for a Opera a position right within
00:41:28 up for a Opera a position right within the tower and you know try to replicate what we were doing upstairs right without any interruption so you say
00:41:39 without any interruption so you say terms of the chronology with which this writing came onto that wall I think you say do you that your pictogram was first because the wall not first no no it was
00:41:52 because the wall not first no no it was there was cemetery no sir writing okay from several officers because the volume of information that we were getting was such that one individual could not
00:42:05 such that one individual could not successfully record the amount of information we were getting right and in terms of the information in the middle
00:42:16 terms of the information in the middle in those two or perhaps three lists that we see in the middle of the right-hand picture which is one five a 2-0 just from you did cover this a minute ago but
00:42:27 from you did cover this a minute ago but I just want to be clear who wrote that up there and where did it come from and Weiss China Graf no the the black China graph the three columns of four actually
00:42:40 graph the three columns of four actually columns of information can you can you highlight it yes the highlight of all that's 300 we highlight only four
00:42:52 yes that's information there which is to the left of the pictogram now I don't recall okay
00:43:07 but mr. Akiba sort of dragged you through that but thank you very much that's fine I understand where the boy you want to examine it but you know it's it's a year on then we just I can't recall the amount of writing who wrote
00:43:18 recall the amount of writing who wrote it but I could say that no it's the summarizer that the reserve there was love there was love is knock down the wall on that more on that incident so yeah thank you at the stage at which you
00:43:36 yeah thank you at the stage at which you were writing and yet other firefighters were writing up that information what was happening with the radio communications it wasn't working even in
00:43:48 communications it wasn't working even in the lobby wasn't working at all and to address the issue the forest sector commander who magic over and I believe gave the order to get introduced
00:44:01 gave the order to get introduced repeater system comms repeater system upwards in the inside a building which would mean a PA for going specifically
00:44:12 would mean a PA for going specifically to drop the transponders to do a relay system up to a building which would boost our radio signals at what stage did he do you remember did he order a
00:44:24 did he do you remember did he order a repeater system I couldn't tell you it's impossible there were times can I just see if I can explore that a little bit if you turn to page 16 of your statement
00:44:36 if you turn to page 16 of your statement you say there were no this is the second paragraph there were no comms with any of the crews operating above the bridgehead we were experiencing distorted feedback on today's and that's
00:44:48 distorted feedback on today's and that's the designated VA channel and then you go on to say you saw one be a crew had been committed to the radio repeaters what do you what do you mean by that as
00:45:01 what do you what do you mean by that as I just said to you there are coober committed to place a relay system a radio relay system
00:45:13 a relay system a radio relay system opens inside the tower opposite which would mean them there they're like just in holidays simplify it it's like there's little things you buy in Lapland
00:45:26 there's little things you buy in Lapland but they're not to boost your Wi-Fi signal at home yeah where we have these this system where we can lay a relay system within if we have their issues
00:45:37 system within if we have their issues with with our communications right their repeaters they repeat the signal on those loser and this is equipment you already had with you know we didn't have a widow since carried on the command
00:45:49 a widow since carried on the command units I believe did you know which command unit these houses have equipment came from and you have to have a particular crew committed with these repeaters to play someone has to put them up there and the only people that
00:46:01 them up there and the only people that with warfare are vehicles so I think in summary if they got up into the tower replace them but they didn't work so and
00:46:12 replace them but they didn't work so and then you go on to say in the last sentence of that paragraph I asked group manager Goulbourne if we could use channel 2 that he said he would need to request permission to use that's correct what is channel 2 it's what another
00:46:23 what is channel 2 it's what another channel is available it's it's its own sort of an order from our channels and you have to request permission from I don't know exactly but if I could put
00:46:35 don't know exactly but if I could put that in context I was desperate ticket area maintain contact with our adb recruits yes it was of the greatest importance to me to know what they were ok or where they were if they were successful with the rescue and so on and
00:46:47 successful with the rescue and so on and the fact that they were not just up there with a water balloon old radio comms greatly concerned so I asked I said to pack or burn on food manager goldberg
00:46:58 goldberg can we go to challenge what he said and he said yes but i have to get permission or along those lines right we have to request is not permission requesters do you know whether he did request i don't know did you ever get did you ever
00:47:11 don't know did you ever get did you ever get access to channel 2 not to my recollection did he come back to you and tell you the results of his request but no I was too busy maybe I mean what would channel -
00:47:22 busy maybe I mean what would channel - do you think I've given you possibly communication with oh but the crews upstairs we could switch the channel - right possibly what's special about channel 2 that you would need permission ordinarily using them in their nest
00:47:33 ordinarily using them in their nest traffic on us but why would you why in general terms would one need for special permission to access channel 2 because there I couldn't get the exact answer we don't ordinarily use us as doing the
00:47:44 don't ordinarily use us as doing the ants I can give you at the moment right
00:47:51 [Music] and then
00:47:59 just in the third paragraph down of page 16 your you return to the subject of volume of confirmed FSG correctly described the map on the wall with just
00:48:11 described the map on the wall with just lots of numbers and then at the end of that paragraph you say I think it was four o'clock in the morning because I remember the times on the slips of paper now we've just been looking at the maps
00:48:22 now we've just been looking at the maps on the walls and can we connect the two in terms of the surface of paper that were on the pieces of paper you put in your tunic which we looked at in evidence on Friday and the information
00:48:35 evidence on Friday and the information on the on the walls we've just looked at this morning that's the same information that's the same in from you that's part of the same information I didn't keep all the slips were there and ones I
00:48:50 all the slips were there and ones I managed to keep yes say some of that information on the walls we looked at this morning all the photographs could be timed can it that around for fall 2008 Lee yes I see now on page 16 you
00:49:06 2008 Lee yes I see now on page 16 you witness when it kind of starts to oh yes without wishing to hurry you talk how much more do you think together probably about 10 or 15 minutes more maybe I'd like a short break well finished the
00:49:19 like a short break well finished the witness internal 15 minutes I can finish them yes mrs. Chen like I can well know mr. Keefe would you like to have a break at this stage how long for Berlin Council say 10 15 minutes I'll take my
00:49:31 Council say 10 15 minutes I'll take my break now thank you very much I think that's advised to switch knowing is this way with respect minutes thank you very much should we resume it elaborate operon
00:49:44 should we resume it elaborate operon please no talking to anyone else
00:49:51 [Music]
00:50:03 you
01:03:59 yes just a minute I think if we sorry to touch all christening a bit short there but I thought it was appropriate give mr. Keefer little break yes quite right miss that's fine thank
01:04:11 yes quite right miss that's fine thank you and we can have mr. O'Keefe back jeez
01:04:20 [Music]
01:04:26 alright let's review sir mr. Keefe can I just ask you to look at page 16 of your statement and this is just after the
01:04:37 statement and this is just after the paragraph where we've discussed channel 2 in the next state next paragraph you say there was now a huge volume of confirmed FSG on all the upper floors so any floor above the 12th floor we had a
01:04:49 any floor above the 12th floor we had a map on the wall with just lots of numbers we had 8 people in one flat 10 in another flat people were gathering together in there and flats human nature isn't it I think it was 4 o'clock in the morning because I remember the times on
01:05:00 morning because I remember the times on the slips of paper I've asked you about the slips of paper and the timing my question is were you able to commit crews to those floors where lots of
01:05:13 crews to those floors where lots of people had collected together in flats we were attempting to a commit crews there sir
01:05:17 there sir we were I was briefings who specifically to go to those floors and when we had their large life risk and whose were detailed to go over and attempted to get
01:05:30 detailed to go over and attempted to get to the floors not all was successfully because the entire building was on fire they had no water and
01:05:42 I know though a rescue has been carried over at that time by EDB a cruise but they were all about the 12th floor and they traveled traveled through the building on fire with no water
01:05:53 building on fire with no water I hope I'm answering your question was very hazardous to the firefighters but they were they were rescuing people who were and when firefighters came down
01:06:04 were and when firefighters came down without having rescued people on the floors they'd been sent to did they debrief - you know the casualties were unconscious the priority was to get the
01:06:17 unconscious the priority was to get the casualties out of the building they were speak to me and members of my team and the information was being
01:06:29 team and the information was being recorded but not by me personally but somebody I was walking with because I answer your question and well yeah yes
01:06:40 answer your question and well yeah yes it doesn't but can I just pursue this a little you can't report him were there do you remember cases where you had deployed edv a where as to these high floors with large numbers of people in
01:06:51 floors with large numbers of people in particular flats and they'd come down without having affected any rescue yes did they debrief to you about the conditions they did some of them were collapsing at the time they were in a
01:07:03 collapsing at the time they were in a bad state that's the answer and are you able to tell us how high they went up into the building before
01:07:18 not specifically but I know some clues we have went very high well as far as they could possibly go without killing
01:07:29 they could possibly go without killing themselves you know they went if there was I don't I couldn't give you specific flats they went to which floors I went to no but it was being recorded by all
01:07:41 to no but it was being recorded by all the guys we had there the inter make any information any updates on information whether they had had a successful rescue whether they were unable to carry out a successful rescue and the reasons why
01:07:54 successful rescue and the reasons why they weren't able to where there was fire in the building with that adapter all was completely alive that was what we were getting for them far from the vehicles and do you remember whether you or any of your colleagues at the
01:08:06 or any of your colleagues at the bridgehead communicated any unsuccessful rescues back to the incident commander I
01:08:16 would say yes well I couldn't give you specifics I was in constant contact with the forest sector commander I didn't
01:08:27 the forest sector commander I didn't know who the sector the incident commander was at the time I believe we might have been assistant chief fire officer uh Andy role I don't know okay I don't know who was in charge but all relevant information was being
01:08:38 relevant information was being communicated amongst ourselves and to the fire sector commander good manager Baldwin right so in terms of at this stage they're about four o'clock in the morning EDB a whereas going up into the
01:08:51 morning EDB a whereas going up into the tower continually any was any unsuccessful deployments that the results of that were being communicated from the bridgehead to the sector could the fire sector commander I wouldn't I
01:09:02 the fire sector commander I wouldn't I wouldn't say again and the details of what we were doing but significant details will be passed me in the fire sector commander and do you know what
01:09:14 sector commander and do you know what sector commander did with those details no and what was the method of communicating those details so far as you did communicate verbally verbally over the radio or face to face to face
01:09:25 over the radio or face to face to face face down so we were positioned so the termination of the stairs in Grand Vitara we were positioned at the foot of the stairs yes so was he I see himself a group
01:09:38 yes so was he I see himself a group manager Welch as some water officers were standing to the right of us facing the stairs near the so you have a glass
01:09:50 the stairs near the so you have a glass partition wall with an access door that was the area they were standing I see so next to the wall they were nearby oh yes okay
01:09:58 yes okay and where did they communicate to I don't you have to ask those the officers that are that question I don't know did you see them running in and out of the building they didn't really know
01:10:09 the building they didn't really know their stay that happened oh right did you get the impression that their radios were working well the for our Lady is
01:10:21 were working well the for our Lady is weren't working but the officers stationed Andra and above carry airwave radios which are far superior to the to the operational far far as radios so
01:10:33 the operational far far as radios so they what they were for example when I was on the third floor with and this is just to give you an idea on the third floor was a good manager Goldberg and station manager cook station emergent
01:10:46 station manager cook station emergent cook received a fine FSG called on his airway radio where we're having a conversation I said oh there was something on the third floor need a rescuing at first of all the guidance called
01:10:56 called and this is mid conversation interrupted our conversation and he kicked the door another flat I will search the flat okay did you know he got that information from he got that that would be from
01:11:07 from he got that that would be from control from control directly I believe I don't he may acquire from the command genus the Central Command unis okay I didn't receive it like that my radio on the command channel at the time right I
01:11:18 the command channel at the time right I received no information and he said hang on one second and he listened to his radio and he said we've got enough SG here right now right and what so just the best of your
01:11:31 and what so just the best of your recollection the airwave radio the Goulbourne and Welch had yes that was they were receiving messages on those from you say control all the command they were being today we were being
01:11:42 they were being today we were being community rekt communication would be with the incident commander and they would also I believe be able to listen to control all information coming true on the railway radios I know they can
01:11:54 on the railway radios I know they can tune in and speak to court control directly is that right so they could actually speak to control directly I believe so without going through the command unit I believe they could do
01:12:05 command unit I believe they could do that or they they had a super an enhanced level of communication do you know when the group managers that you
01:12:17 know when the group managers that you were dealing with at the bridgehead started using their a airwave radios in that way they would have been using them from the very beginning so do I understand your revenues to be that Goulbourne Welch from the time of
01:12:30 Goulbourne Welch from the time of arrival at the bridgehead and their this start of discussions with you were able to communicate directly with brigade control if they wanted to I think they could did you see them do that no I
01:12:43 could did you see them do that no I would suggest though that they were not in direct contact with brigade control that were they they would have been in direct contact with each other for command and control purposes right but
01:12:55 command and control purposes right but it struck me as significant when station manager cook took a call mid conversation with me on the bridgehead to tell MIT to inform him that there was
01:13:09 to tell MIT to inform him that there was an MSG called coming in work on on the floor we were standing on and the air wave radios that is a physically different piece of equipment of equipment but it's a it's a handheld
01:13:21 equipment but it's a it's a handheld radio right and the whole senior officers carried them above which rank above our station a drone evolved station manager and above have air wave radios for any superior and what does an air wave radio do that an ordinary
01:13:33 an air wave radio do that an ordinary fire ground radio well you can contact control where they are they can contact you directly really okay whereas the forum radio is just that it's a walkie
01:13:46 forum radio is just that it's a walkie talkie for want of a better term we can communicate with each other over certain distances so it's it's a it's a radio to radio contact can I just ask explore
01:14:00 radio contact can I just ask explore this just a little bit more I'm not an expert on on radios but just so you know I don't know but on your experience have you have you can help me say the first station manager is this right to arrive
01:14:13 station manager is this right to arrive at the fire ground on the night would have an air wave radio yes and to in your experience would that a wave radio allow him to speak to the control room at Stratford directly I would say yes
01:14:26 at Stratford directly I would say yes right because station managers and the buffer are mobilized above port via pager and met pager message yeah there
01:14:37 pager and met pager message yeah there are the Oratory pagers what like carry pagers well alright woods well I'm on juvie and when they get paged to our to an incident then they use their radio to
01:14:48 an incident then they use their radio to call control you can fall you can call you've made direct contact with control that's my understanding I've never had an air wave radio or using air wave reading myself deep right
01:15:00 using air wave reading myself deep right do you know then why and if you don't you do but if you do you know then why if any station manager arriving at the fire ground had an air wave radio which allowed them to speak directly to the
01:15:13 allowed them to speak directly to the control room why there had to be eight this chain of communication of fire survival guidance information from control to the command unit to a forward information board into the lobby and
01:15:26 information board into the lobby and then up to the part up to the bridgehead as we wove heard I would again say that first of all the guidance called information is complicated it's very
01:15:39 information is complicated it's very important information it needs to be processed correctly mean it has to be recorded in the hard copy and youth and distributors and acted upon by officers
01:15:54 distributors and acted upon by officers like myself because a station manager wouldn't ordinarily know would never in fact be are mobilized as a forced attendance of an incident unless of course there was something in a plane
01:16:05 course there was something in a plane crash or or some catastrophe then you will have seen Rob's as mobilize immediately but an e fire generally the highest rank or role of an officer is
01:16:17 highest rank or role of an officer is where's the watch manager I mean that would be the highest rank more goes to an incident and the radio as we use our fire ground radios or mainstream radio which is the same as an air wave radio
01:16:30 which is the same as an air wave radio that our senior officer carries a mainstream radio gives direct contact between control and us but all mainstream all radios on our own fire
01:16:41 mainstream all radios on our own fire engines and that's the direct contact control the same facility is afforded by the air wave radio because senior officers don't try are right in fire
01:16:53 officers don't try are right in fire engines does that answer yes sir they can understand I understand but but if at any stage you had wanted at you running the bridgehead had wanted to
01:17:04 running the bridgehead had wanted to speak directly to control about a particular call yeah it would be very useful I had narrated to me it to be frank with you where I would like to have them right yeah okay but if for
01:17:17 have them right yeah okay but if for examples a station manager or group manager was either up running the bridgehead all speaking very closely to you who was running the bridgehead had a an air wave radio you what would there
01:17:34 an air wave radio you what would there be a need to have the system that was in place whereby control spoke to the command unit command unit forward information runners into the building and then up to the bridgehead with pieces of paper I see where you're going with this time
01:17:46 see where you're going with this time delay yeah you know a car a complicated process of communication oh I like the only answer one way is that the Ivan
01:17:59 only answer one way is that the Ivan incident of the complexity and enormity of grandfa tower using the process we used was still the only really solid
01:18:11 used was still the only really solid wave of recorded information right that's the oh I can I can only answer in that way understand that did you know you have to transcribe that information it has to be physically held because Tennessee is some foreign to me
01:18:23 because Tennessee is some foreign to me you know what you've got you've got the number of the flag you've got the number of people you know where they are
01:18:37 can I just ask you just one or two quick further questions on page 18 of the very top of the page
01:18:47 so I don't let me just pick this up slightly differently in the second paragraph you say it was around this time that I received the last written note from watch manager Watson would be
01:18:58 note from watch manager Watson would be giving me all the numbers yeah they'd have no numbers on it so I asked him what it was about he stated to be that all FSG calls have now ceased you said it was around this time now in the
01:19:10 it was around this time now in the previous paragraph you were dealing with breaking the windows in the lobby because the door had shut no we're breaking the winners of lobby because we're the lobby for a little smaller right
01:19:20 right so the fire expect Dom toss written when was on its way yes I think completely throw the lobby so we couldn't breathe yes well I'll come back to that in a moment but no characters in terms of timing yeah roughly when was that that
01:19:32 timing yeah roughly when was that that was after you've moved to the ground floor possibly five o'clock in the morning I can't remember the exact time was it like do you think just put daily start to be daily at I believe I was
01:19:43 start to be daily at I believe I was daylight it was dawn any word on right and you say watch manager watts and handed you a note yeah do you know where he had got that information the fire
01:19:55 he had got that information the fire from the command room where he would've gotten in that chain of runners from the commanders and would operate what effect did that have on the operations that were gang on the edge at my there
01:20:07 were gang on the edge at my there momentary effect of stunning us
01:20:12 [Music] and at that stage do you remember if they were flats to which you hadn't yet many Binet quickly yeah can I take a break you know of course to
01:20:23 can I take a break you know of course to man in fact miss mister I was going to sound when they thought was right don't say okay just take a quick break course of kiss how should we take our posture that I gave you time to them
01:20:39 you
01:31:01 [Music]
01:31:14 yes it's gonna go yeah continue as soon as mr. Keefe his back yes
01:31:27 what
01:31:33 right very okay mr. Keith okay sir yes good Thank You mr. minute mr. Keith I've only got one or two questions left for you that's right on Friday we were
01:31:45 you that's right on Friday we were discussing the trip of the tower conducted by the trio of firefighters dog ooh
01:31:53 dog ooh the deer and secret and that was the context in which I asked you about how VA where is going up to perform rescues
01:32:06 VA where is going up to perform rescues could get down the stairs and your answer is its its page 101 of the transcript at lines 14 to 18 or 22 in
01:32:17 transcript at lines 14 to 18 or 22 in fact and you say at this time I still we don't have any facilities to bring people through smoke without injuring them sorry smoke of that intensity and
01:32:28 them sorry smoke of that intensity and that degree of smoke knocking and then you go on to say otherwise my guys wouldn't be wearing breathing apparatus this is a highly arrestor little atmosphere Tosca Rocio and you won't get very far
01:32:41 Tosca Rocio and you won't get very far my question when you say we don't have facilities to bring people through smoke without injuring them can you clarify for us whether you're saying that you the the NFB had facilities but they
01:32:53 the the NFB had facilities but they weren't on the fire ground or whether you're saying that the lfb didn't have it the facilities at all we don't have those facilities at all on the night of the incident no are there before that
01:33:04 the incident no are there before that know and there's courage something being trialed but we don't have we do not have a facility to protect a casualty from smoke I during an education installation
01:33:17 smoke I during an education installation yes thank you very much
01:33:24 mr. O'Keefe I have no further questions for you I just want to say thank you very much for coming along and spending a lot of time assisting me and the Chairman with our investigations we are extremely grateful thank you add my
01:33:38 extremely grateful thank you add my thanks to that mr. O'Keefe you've been giving evidence I suspect rather longer than you'd expect it yes but you've given your evidence in a really excellent way they're very clear very careful and
01:33:49 they're very clear very careful and giving us a lot of detailed assistance so I'm really very great thank you for okay so if I do that thank you very much indeed
01:33:56 indeed okay thank you that's it for free band as they say mr. chairman we have had mr.
01:34:07 as they say mr. chairman we have had mr. O'Keefe's oral evidence we also have his statement I would just want a place on record the text of pages 20 and 21 office statement I'm not gonna read it
01:34:19 office statement I'm not gonna read it aloud but I would draw a particular attention to it for yes description of the fire the impact the resources
01:34:31 the fire the impact the resources deployed and the personal experience which much manager O'Keefe has articulated in it for a particular example of clarity yes well that'll form part of the evidence
01:34:43 well that'll form part of the evidence before the inquiry and those who wish to read it will be able to do so they will yeah good thank you very much now who's the next witness now mr. chairman I'm told that mr.
01:34:56 now mr. chairman I'm told that mr. donkey is is ready to give evidence but a short break I think is needed if that's all right said that he can be arranged as they were brought down yes would you mind giving us 20 minutes I
01:35:08 would you mind giving us 20 minutes I know it's just a break well I'm in New York I'm in your hands maybe 15 I think well how about if we said 10 to 12 that was very good we compromised 10 to 12 thank you
01:35:21 we compromised 10 to 12 thank you [Music]
01:35:29 you
01:52:51 yes we're smelly so we're now ready for mr. dog do that right now we're now ready for mr. doggy the next witness is the Chairman pinky
01:53:17 yes nice to sweat away [Music]
01:53:25 I swear by Almighty God that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth the whole truth nothing but the truth
01:53:34 the truth thank you very much we just all google mooing I take it to a comfortable giving your evidence standing up at the moment yes and well if that changes just indicating if you'd like to sit down
01:53:45 indicating if you'd like to sit down thank you I'll hand again if the DNI's fail you feel the need to have a break you just say so mr. dog ooh good morning
01:53:56 you just say so mr. dog ooh good morning good morning first of all can I just say thank you very much to you for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations it is very much appreciated my questions are intended to
01:54:09 appreciated my questions are intended to be short and simple then it always work out that way if you have any difficulty understanding anything I'm asking you then just ask me to repeat the question or I'll put it in a different way and
01:54:20 or I'll put it in a different way and we'll proceed together if you want to break at any stage just a signal and we can have a break this mother normal 14 first of all could you please take your statement which should be in a bundle
01:54:32 statement which should be in a bundle but in front of you but normally we work on the basis of what's on a screen your statement it should be at Tab A and it's a meaty zero zero zero zero eight six
01:54:45 a meaty zero zero zero zero eight six zero three seven that's the relativity reference number and that tab B you should have your contemporaneous notes as Exhibit one two your your statement and that's a meaty
01:54:57 your your statement and that's a meaty zero zero zero zero five three one four yes and on the desk in front of you on your right there's a screen which has
01:55:08 your right there's a screen which has the statement on it and what we normally do is go to that statement on the screen a highlight bits that we look at together can I just ask you first of all about your statement it's dated the 22nd
01:55:19 about your statement it's dated the 22nd of January 2018 have you read it recently yes and subject to any questions and any further answers you have during Corson today can you confirm that its
01:55:31 Corson today can you confirm that its contents are true yes have you discussed your statement or the evidence that you're going to give to the inquiry with anybody before coming here today no thank you
01:55:42 thank you can I just begin them by asking you about your position and career you have I think served in the London Fire Brigade for the last 22 years correct yes yes so you joined in 1996 to be
01:55:55 yes yes so you joined in 1996 to be October 95 October 95 and you've been at North Kensington on red watch for the last 19 years 19 years ago and that's a is that as an active firefighter yes
01:56:07 is that as an active firefighter yes okay what was your position as at the night of the 13th 14th of June 2017 as firefighter on duty running the pump
01:56:18 firefighter on duty running the pump Goff - seven - right that's what would you able to be able to stand other stands slightly near the microphone or perhaps angle the microphone towards you say that we can hear a little better I
01:56:30 say that we can hear a little better I bet I'm coming across a bit thinner this I think that's better I think you don't think very much now if you turn to page two of your statement you say and this
01:56:44 two of your statement you say and this is pick it up at the bottom of page one actually you have previous knowledge of green of Grenville tower we did a walk around the while ago perhaps a few months or a year ago to see how nice it
01:56:56 months or a year ago to see how nice it looked they had the floors done on the outside looked lovely with nice new cladding the inside also that better than if it done previously basically it was just a walk around familiarize ourselves with it and then you go on to
01:57:11 ourselves with it and then you go on to say the third line on page two it's call this 72d check where we just go in there to familiarize ourselves with the building not to say this is right or this is wrong they're just pausing there do you
01:57:25 they're just pausing there do you remember
01:57:26 remember when you did that visit the year before approximately 12 months I think okay we have a record which we looked at with watch manager doubt it of a visit done
01:57:38 watch manager doubt it of a visit done in July 2016 would that be about right yes I see
01:57:43 yes I see do you remember who you visited with Gary to people remember a watch manager Dowden and crew major battery tri-council [Music]
01:57:53 [Music] and were there any particular issues that you were asked to look at on that visit specifically at that time they
01:58:04 visit specifically at that time they were still doing renovation work so there was an issue where the inlet for the dry rise would be so how many lengths suppose we'd need to get around scaffolding etc so I don't wash motor
01:58:18 scaffolding etc so I don't wash motor down and a lot of investigation on exactly what we have to do if we turned up then it would be different to how it used to be or me used to right because of the refurb so at that point we'd have slightly different operational
01:58:29 slightly different operational requirements right and can you remember what things you did look at on that visit you checked identify the fire lift
01:58:40 visit you checked identify the fire lift you would check the stairways are clear any fire exits you checked look to see if fire doors are apparently operational make sure essentially that the dry riser
01:58:52 make sure essentially that the dry riser is
01:58:55 is working that it's in a red box that there's above it's not you know it's it's working or appears to be working you don't check these things but you kind of identify them so it's not our job to check them because we're no longer qualified to do that
01:59:07 longer qualified to do that you mentioned checking the the lift do you remember whether you actually did check the lift and see whether it was working as either a firefighting lift or
01:59:18 working as either a firefighting lift or a fire lift I think I don't think were actually required to physically check it I think we are supposed to identify it is which should be identified by a plate and also by a drop key hole in the wall
01:59:30 and also by a drop key hole in the wall so we know we'd be able to use it as a firefighter in it but actually we do have a tendency to do that just to check who's working did you check the Continental on that occasion but ordinarily we would and what would that
01:59:43 ordinarily we would and what would that check ordinarily involve checking the pilots house in using the drop key bringing the fire lift down to the ground floor to make sure we had control of it someone could get in and then press the buttons accordingly to make sure it would go on our command as
01:59:55 sure it would go on our command as opposed to a member of the public being able to call the lifts as they needed to okay casting your mind back to that visit in July 16 do you remember whether you actually did that check in
02:00:08 whether you actually did that check in the way you've just described again I can't remember that specific that specific that time but on ordinarily on our watch we tend to actually physically
02:00:19 our watch we tend to actually physically check the pilot when we did at that time or not a year previous to grant Baelfire I don't know okay is there any reason why you wouldn't have checked the lift there's no reason why we wouldn't have
02:00:30 there's no reason why we wouldn't have do you remember notice any noticing anything or discussing anything with your colleagues you were visiting with that was out of the ordinary with the fire lift
02:00:39 fire lift no no but again that's a year before the actual fire so if we checked it on that date there's nothing to say that it was still in Ford on the night do you
02:00:51 still in Ford on the night do you remember whether anybody showed you round or a company to you round trip guns number no did you discuss the building with anybody on that visit as
02:01:04 building with anybody on that visit as in my colleagues or sorry quite right with as in anybody from the building owner or the tenant management organization or the builders watch manager Jotham may well have spoke to someone in the building apartment
02:01:15 someone in the building apartment because they were still in the renovation so it's quite possible he responds them about works they were doing and what they were planning to do etc so plus quite possibly but I wouldn't have done that myself personally yeah in your experience do
02:01:33 personally yeah in your experience do you ever carry out a risk assessment as part of your part of your visits to buildings essentially that's what a visit is to assess any any hazard and
02:01:44 visit is to assess any any hazard and any risks so I think as I said in my statement and unless they've done something obvious because we're no longer qualified to actually check things on a on a on a my new basis so we
02:01:57 things on a on a on a my new basis so we don't we're not obliged to check things that I've teaches how to check things so it's more of a cursory inspection the presupposition being that it's already been inspected it's already been iced up to standard as building regs and
02:02:09 to standard as building regs and planning regs and health or safety executive regs would have it before we are actually inspecting it so what we're actually inspecting is is the building if you had a fire here tomorrow is there
02:02:20 if you had a fire here tomorrow is there anything obvious that we could see that would impede our firefighting that's going to pointless a specialist pour do you know whether a risk assessment for grant felt our walls done after the refurbishment the risk assessment
02:02:32 refurbishment the risk assessment would've been carried out by watch manager Dowden so I would I would risk assessed on a personal level as with my colleagues here as you would with the dynamic risk assessment you would risk assesses the rating as a firefighter like I couldn't do here because of any
02:02:45 like I couldn't do here because of any particular hazard put me on that note do you remember who asked you to carry out the visit
02:02:50 the visit are you describing in statement it would be it with you watch manager Zeldin it would be it would it would come up every three to five years I think or
02:03:01 every three to five years I think or unless someone's had a specific complaint about the building that we may inspect it on that basis but do you know or remember who asked well he was
02:03:14 or remember who asked well he was ultimately in charge at and at north kenneth asking for that visit to take place no okay well you provided with any documents setting out the instructions that you were asked to follow in respect of that
02:03:26 were asked to follow in respect of that visit no watch manager Darden would have documents with him would ask us to check certain things we do our own checks just basilar experience and what we know the building when you were on site do you
02:03:38 building when you were on site do you remember having any discussion with the building owner or the contractor about building materials or the instruction no okay
02:03:49 did you go into the building yes did you get how far did you get I can't remember I can argue uh did you go into the inner little of this yes
02:04:00 little of this yes do you remember whether there was any electronic key access that was required to get you inside with its lobbies to up to a lobby area with the flats get around no you don't justify doing
02:04:18 Kermit has asked you to look at a policy on the fabricated policy 633 which is a
02:04:29 on the fabricated policy 633 which is a tap four of the policies bundled and first of all just to ask you by reference to its first page we'll put it up on the screen
02:04:40 up on the screen [Music]
02:04:43 [Music] this is policy number 633 are you familiar with this policy yes have you
02:04:55 familiar with this policy yes have you do you think you've had training on this policy yes yes can you tell me roughly when was the last time before first of
02:05:07 when was the last time before first of all before your July 16 visit summer 16 visit you have training on this policy I can't be specific about times but it would have been fairly regular throughout the year okay and would that be would that mean also that you'd had
02:05:19 be would that mean also that you'd had training on this policy shortly before in the months leading up to the fire at Grenfell tower yes okay can I just ask you to look at page 19 which is appendix
02:05:31 you to look at page 19 which is appendix 172 D and I just want to show it to you it starts a paragraph 1 by saying during 72 D visits personnel should ensure that
02:05:43 72 D visits personnel should ensure that they are familiar with the following and their impact on firefighting and search and rescue operations and then there's a long bullet point list of things that the policy says you should assure that
02:05:56 the policy says you should assure that you're familiar with are you familiar with that list yes are you familiar with the requirement that visiting personnel should ensure that they're familiar with the things on that name yes did you ever
02:06:09 the things on that name yes did you ever have any training about how to go about conducting a 72 d visits so that you as a visiting person ensure that you're familiar with the things on that list I
02:06:21 familiar with the things on that list I think for operational firefighter most of the
02:06:25 of the list will be self-explanatory so you would understand you know means of access and egress and the sites the building so if anything's impeding that it would be obvious you were there for reports at watch manager down so and
02:06:36 reports at watch manager down so and when you went on your visit in the summer of 2016 to Grenfell tower did you take steps to ensure that you are familiar with what's on with the things on that list yes all of them most of
02:06:53 on that list yes all of them most of them it's quite a long list so that's a slightly unfair question but just casting your your eye down to taking some examples perhaps a third of the way down firefighting shafts and protected
02:07:04 down firefighting shafts and protected Lobby areas on your visit did you do you remember whether you took steps to ensure that you were familiar with those yes you did what did you do you visit the lobby and to the lobby he made sure
02:07:15 the lobby and to the lobby he made sure that the fire doors separated lobby thing a stairwell where we check their integrity but we're not trained to check the actual door fittings etc interesting
02:07:27 the actual door fittings etc interesting strips or anything else but basically it's adored it it seems to be ostensibly performing its function you're checking for where things are floor layouts and
02:07:39 for where things are floor layouts and where the drives would be where it'd be an incident right what did you understand was the firefighting shaft at grenfell tower when you visited it that
02:07:50 grenfell tower when you visited it that be to shut the main protected stairwell sister fire fighting shaft that would you make rolls did you examine the protected stairwell as much as you can yeah did you to Purdue River
02:08:01 yeah did you to Purdue River specifically whether you actually did we would have we would have done that I can't remember on that occasion we did but yes have been grown for many times we would have actually would have done that you'd have gone at the stage had
02:08:12 that you'd have gone at the stage had you gone probably the lift tested up the stairs tested a lobby City several lobby areas usually it's a crew will go up above to test coms for the crews below
02:08:24 above to test coms for the crews below right did you look at the next item down the location and function or
02:08:35 the location and function or firefighting lifts did you you said you checked the location did you check the function of firefighting lifts as I said before as a watch we generally do region I think we're only required to actually
02:08:47 I think we're only required to actually familiarize ourselves with it right those are no longer actually qualify to actually inspect them but yes we would ordinarily do that looking at the next item the likelihood of impact of any fire spread beyond the compartment of
02:08:58 fire spread beyond the compartment of origin and the potential for multiple rescues on that visit do you remember whether you in check to ensure you are familiar with that grand plan yes and
02:09:09 familiar with that grand plan yes and there was nothing that would be extraordinary what did you do to check for the likelihood an impact of any fire spread beyond the compartment of origin
02:09:20 spread beyond the compartment of origin you'd be looking at if you're looking at the external part of the building if they had balconies if the balconies were for example had barbecues on them or
02:09:32 for example had barbecues on them or they had toys and junk generally tends to be accumulate or barbecue sits outside of the flat sometimes that can cause a hazard cause fire spread upstairs but if you're an meaning
02:09:43 upstairs but if you're an meaning cladding you wouldn't consider that we've been closing ourselves a cladding we wouldn't qualified check clothing would not qualify the the chemical constitution of cladding whether it's fine the the presupposition would be that it would there be nothing put on
02:09:57 that it would there be nothing put on the outside of a building that would that would increase the likelihood of fry spread
02:10:03 just jumping to that then to got to bullet points down on the floor layouts and any building construction features which may promote rapid or abnormal fire spread known some examples but just in
02:10:18 spread known some examples but just in terms of floor layouts and building construction features did you carry out any checks during your visit in the summer of 2016 as to those matters those features for floor layouts yes hadn't
02:10:31 features for floor layouts yes hadn't spread carton of mashaykhina sandwich panels at sim with timber frame constructions can't remember any at all right how did you go about satisfying yourself that the floor layout of the
02:10:45 yourself that the floor layout of the building construction features of Grenville tower when you visited it were such as to have a particular impact on
02:10:56 such as to have a particular impact on firefighting in search and rescue say that again please yes when you let me ask you two different ways poorly phrased as a question when you did your visit in the summer of 2016
02:11:09 visit in the summer of 2016 what did you do to check the floor layouts and any building construction features to to assess their impact on firefighting or search and rescue you
02:11:23 firefighting or search and rescue you check the floor layout to see essentially where the flats are and I'm how you gain access to and from them as far as check the sandwich panels timber frame constructions I didn't see any if
02:11:35 frame constructions I didn't see any if they were they were as I said in my statement it was shiny and you it looked very good you the presupposition you have is that building have done their job properly so you're really checking for any panels that may be aligned so
02:11:49 for any panels that may be aligned so they're not explained it faulty obviously and faulty building construction is what we'd be looking for so if a room looks okay I don't have any rights or any qualification to go around
02:12:00 rights or any qualification to go around picking apart a sandwich pan or or check if it's hollow or not so essentially the lobby area that was clear the doors to and from that seem to function and the flats of that the doors
02:12:13 function and the flats of that the doors seem normal so there's no further investigation would be done did you see familiarizing ourselves ok did you actually go into the building do you remember and check flat front doors
02:12:24 you remember and check flat front doors to see whether they were they had they had clicked all closes on them I can't remember doing that on that occasion do you remember ever doing it he used to do that new years ago like 20 years ago yes
02:12:36 that new years ago like 20 years ago yes we're inspection for far more far more in depth but we're no longer qualified to do that we know when it's done stops right 15 20 years ago maybe so just in
02:12:49 right 15 20 years ago maybe so just in terms of the visit you did in the summer of 2016 are you saying you didn't actually check whether or not flat front doors had door closes on them I can't remember checking okay and what about
02:13:00 remember checking okay and what about checking cold smoked seals on the insides of from flat front doors I remember checking it what about cold smoked seals on the doors leading from the lobbies to the protected stairwell
02:13:11 the lobbies to the protected stairwell now we wouldn't qualify to check them as an you can familiarize ourselves even though let's see if they're there right but I don't know if it's been fitted falsely or not so for me to say it's okay I have no rights as a firefighter operationally to sanction the work of
02:13:24 operationally to sanction the work of the builders the presupposition is that that's been done it's been privatized and put elsewhere that's no longer deemed our job and did you check the location of the dry riser outlets yes
02:13:39 location of the dry riser outlets yes and did you form a view about whether they were whether they would have an impact on firefighting or search-and-rescue operations they'd be honest they're in Greenville Terrace is is good in that if they are
02:13:51 Terrace is is good in that if they are in inside the lobby so in that respect you you can fight the fire slightly differently as I come to later my statement which explains why we setting on the flyer floor is because the lobby
02:14:04 on the flyer floor is because the lobby itself becomes a compartment you don't have to wedge the door open coming up from the floor below that's inherently dangerous to the stairwell to protect his fire shafts so at crome hotel they're in a good position okay
02:14:16 hotel they're in a good position okay we'll come back we will come back to that in due course just jumping up I missed it out occupancy and Hughes profile did you check the occupancy of gnu's profile when he visited in the
02:14:28 gnu's profile when he visited in the summer of 2013 that's the kind of thing what's manager would have done he would have spoke to if there's a concierge there used to be a concierge provision anymore so if there's a way of checking
02:14:39 anymore so if there's a way of checking that that would gonna watch manager more than me right
02:14:44 did you if you look down a little bit further down 7 I think so it will say bullet points up from the bottom means
02:14:55 bullet points up from the bottom means of ventilation and smoke control including location of operating switches do you remember whether on that visit you or your colleagues checked the means of ventilation and smoke control again
02:15:07 of ventilation and smoke control again that is we knew his ventilator shaft but in the event of a fire would not be a firefighter who would operate that so no that would be a watch management above right and the next one evacuation
02:15:22 right and the next one evacuation arrangements which may include phased evacuation do you remember whether you familiarize yourselves with the evacuation arrangements at groennfell tower and their impact on firefighting all search
02:15:33 their impact on firefighting all search and rescue operations we did mention that there's no longer a fire alarm so because there's no longer a fire alarm it would be very difficult have a phased evacuation or any kind of evacuation
02:15:44 evacuation or any kind of evacuation because you can't simultaneously raise the residence especially at nighttime with a fire alarm so many years ago maybe 20 years ago ground falls how I did have one I think it was taken out in
02:15:55 did have one I think it was taken out in this refurb right and will you say simultaneous fire along do you mean a far along but worked throughout the building yes because we used to go to automatic fire
02:16:06 because we used to go to automatic fire alarms actuated grandpa do you have a particular recollection of there being an automatic fire alarms throughout the building in your time yeah 20 years ago yes yeah and do you remember when it was
02:16:18 yes yeah and do you remember when it was removed from no you think you said you thought would be a refurbishment but why you possibly I noticed it during the week it was noticeable that there were no sprinklers it was noticeable there was no fire alarm in the lobby so you
02:16:32 was no fire alarm in the lobby so you serve as noticeable living no sprinklers have there ever been sprinklers no a green filter but I think you say with an automatic fire alarm or integrated for a long there has that right no no that
02:16:43 long there has that right no no that they've never been sprinklers but because it was such we'd heard it was an expensive reefer because it looked at a setting most neighborhood shiny in you the outside of and all clouded it looked you know very good from the outside but
02:16:56 you know very good from the outside but if a firefighting point of view they didn't seem to spend the money on fire alarm systems and sprinklers which arguably we would say they should have done all right just go back to the
02:17:07 done all right just go back to the evacuation Arrangements you said that because there was no or now no automated fire alarm system you couldn't have phased evacuation is that yes oh I got
02:17:18 phased evacuation is that yes oh I got that right yes okay but in terms of evacuation Arrangements did you familiarize yourselves on that visit with what the evacuation arrangements were at groennfell tower no with me
02:17:29 were at groennfell tower no with me because there's only one firefighters only one stairwell so firefighter evacuation would have to be by that stairwell right did you think about how that might impact on firefighting and
02:17:40 that might impact on firefighting and search and rescue operations in the event of a fire it will make it incredibly difficult as it did on that night yeah so you have you have 200 residents coming down a stairwell which is not much wider than a domestic
02:17:52 is not much wider than a domestic staircase you it will be almost impossible for firefighters to get up to a fight fire or be to help people who were stranded and is that view that you've just told us about that you would
02:18:03 you've just told us about that you would it would make it incredibly difficult is that a view you had at the time of this visit
02:18:07 visit do you remember having that thought at that
02:18:10 that yes yeah was that something that that you reported to your station manager without sounding facetious it was self-evident he was obvious so a lot of
02:18:23 self-evident he was obvious so a lot of residents narrow staircase for there to be an evacuation you need there's a certain formula available where you're building a building you'd have a staircase so many people so many rooms the staircase would have to be this wide to allow ingress of firefighters egress
02:18:36 to allow ingress of firefighters egress of residents so Graham felt our was made in the 50s I think so clearly you can't magic up a second stairwell you have to work with what you have
02:18:47 work with what you have grandpa'll towers not particularly suited to evacuation
02:18:55 and three bullet points on potential communications problems is on the list as well yes see that was highlighted when you went on your familiarization visit did you take any steps to ensure
02:19:07 visit did you take any steps to ensure you are familiar with any particular comms problems usually we'll send a team further up in a lift in a little lobby and we will have communications between
02:19:19 and we will have communications between someone level 2 and level 15 or whatever also on jobs we've had a ground fault our never notice any particular comms issues ok and on the visit did you
02:19:31 issues ok and on the visit did you actually do a test at comms test done yes you say you don't remember doing it on that visit but we almost certainly would have been right and what was the result do you remember there was nothing
02:19:42 result do you remember there was nothing unusual right
02:19:46 now you mentioned earlier on in your illness this morning cladding at the time of your visit July 2016
02:19:57 time of your visit July 2016 did you have any review yourself or your colleagues to your knowledge have any thoughts about what risks to Grenfell tower the exterior cladding might have posed no absolutely not okay have you
02:20:13 posed no absolutely not okay have you heard in the fire at Shepherds caught Shepherds Bush caught yes yes well you were you called out to the fire you were yes does that at the same time as
02:20:24 yes does that at the same time as charlie better being like daddy yes we probably posted different stations but that day were yes right and what do you
02:20:35 that day were yes right and what do you remember what was the experience you took away from the fire Shepherd's caught and I was in I think the first fire flat we were dumping down
02:20:46 fire flat we were dumping down it was very intensified by the damage done to the fire the compartment we were in but essentially the Sherpas Sherpas court was was not extraordinary
02:20:58 court was was not extraordinary extraordinary in that it jumps one or two floors and I believe that was by the window by the windows it jumped backwards but in many ways we stopped
02:21:09 backwards but in many ways we stopped the fire on the second or third floor so it wasn't deemed extraordinary in that we've managed to do the job I would say in many ways and I've heard you mention it before and in other get was evidence
02:21:20 it before and in other get was evidence but in many ways it is a vindication of compartment firefighting the first compartment was alight apparently set fire to the upper compartment fire a window which is usually the point where I can plant would fail we therefore
02:21:31 I can plant would fail we therefore moved up got crews inside extinguish that fire it moved up again we repeated the process and we've done so whilst it can be seen similar in that there was fire spread obviously nothing
02:21:44 there was fire spread obviously nothing as aggressive as as Granville Tower we managed to control that fire within a short space of time despite of being quite violent
02:21:59 after Shepards call do you remember ever getting any training on the lessons learnt as a result of that fire no do
02:22:12 learnt as a result of that fire no do you remember any intelligence or even chitchat of gossip around the mess table about the lessons learned that at school no nothing no did anybody give
02:22:29 school no nothing no did anybody give you any training or issue any guidance or intelligence after Shepard's caught about the need to understand what products are being used in a facade system on a high-rise block
02:22:40 system on a high-rise block no no mozzarella did anybody tell you the new construction material or methods of construction being used in facades is something on which the London Fire
02:22:51 something on which the London Fire Brigade had a limited understanding now terms of their fire behavioral performance we had no understanding at all watch level
02:23:04 the only thing you can take to keep going yes thank you
02:23:12 while I'm on the subject that of training if I can just go back to that
02:23:20 on page two of your statement
02:23:31 you you save six lines down from the top with regard to training for higher as far as we do standard drills we have a
02:23:42 far as we do standard drills we have a procedure we practice now and again practice it almost every high-rise we go to just a FAs automatic fire alarm systems nothing unusual and then you go on to explain the drills with ladders
02:23:54 on to explain the drills with ladders and the bridgehead what can you just explain what the standard procedure you're referring to involves in standard
02:24:05 you're referring to involves in standard drills as regards high-rise as regards my eyes yes and Tyros procedures essentially as I'm sure you've heard before is set to a bridgehead of equipment usually with two floors below
02:24:17 equipment usually with two floors below the fire floor and the fire poles identified then equipment and control board hose branch firefighters crew manager everything's assembler that
02:24:29 manager everything's assembler that bridgehead that's in safe air two floors below the VA crew will then set in one floor below the fire floor and move up second crew were going on the fire floor if to back them up I set into a dry riser where riser and
02:24:43 I set into a dry riser where riser and when did you last practice high-rise procedure of drills prior to Grenville tower prior to the fire on June 7th we have run simulations in the months
02:24:55 have run simulations in the months before she met several times a year so I imagined the poorly right and did you undergo refresher training in relation to high-rise firefighting in that period
02:25:07 to high-rise firefighting in that period ended and did that training cover what I might call the statehood policy the staple policy I think is talks about a
02:25:18 staple policy I think is talks about a lot now but as as as firefighters we talk more of compartment firefighting so the instruction given to the members of public is to stay put that's not a fire brigade policy is a
02:25:29 that's not a fire brigade policy is a policy born out of building control you build
02:25:32 build building so this made compartments at the partners can pump that complement eyes the fire and therefore it gives us time to fight the fire if the fire brigade had a policy on high-rise fighting we'd have two staircases smoke
02:25:43 fighting we'd have two staircases smoke alarms fire alarms sprinklers because that's being financially not feasible this is what we do so we don't we talk more in in context of kompot compartment
02:25:54 more in in context of kompot compartment firefighting did you have any training at any stage particularly in the months or years prior to Grenfell tower about what to do in terms of firefighting strategy if the fire should break out of
02:26:07 strategy if the fire should break out of its can initial compartment and start to spread as in with scheppers court we would move to the compartment above send a be a crew in there and extinguish the
02:26:18 a be a crew in there and extinguish the fire compartment above because that was that part of your training yes okay and did you have any training about what alternatives to look for in terms of
02:26:30 alternatives to look for in terms of evacuation and search-and-rescue if a fire broke out of its compartment and started to spread beyond no we weren't trained in the back uation
02:26:42 we weren't trained in the back uation none right
02:26:50 you say on page two about halfway down the first main paragraph I've attended quite a few high-rise fires before but nothing out of the ordinary I've had one
02:27:01 nothing out of the ordinary I've had one or two that have spread to the floor above where windows were open or you were just a bit unlucky or there were extenuating circumstances in those instances what procedures what high-rise
02:27:12 instances what procedures what high-rise firefighting procedures did you follow the same procedure as was put in place in shepherds court so you assert the VA crew in the compartment above to
02:27:24 crew in the compartment above to extinguish a fire usually it's through open windows summer time right so that's usually what we do okay chip it's caught weather with their sector commanders in
02:27:36 weather with their sector commanders in place I don't know you don't know okay in the instances that you refer to in your statement was the advice do you remember two residents to remain in
02:27:47 remember two residents to remain in their flats or or something else it would have been I don't remember any mass evacuations occurring at all right do you have any memory memory or regular recollection of
02:28:00 [Music] going back to grenfell tower and the visit that you did in 2016 say and still
02:28:11 visit that you did in 2016 say and still on the subject of evacuation do you remember what at that visit you learnt about what the standing advice the standing implies to residents was in the
02:28:22 standing implies to residents was in the event of a fire I don't American specific for grandfather enough okay
02:28:33 could you
02:28:37 be shy please scary ones moves
02:28:49 tap twelve of the documents bundle which is B la quadrature zero two four one six
02:29:00 is B la quadrature zero two four one six and that is a photograph of a notice taken from within Grand Hotel in the
02:29:11 taken from within Grand Hotel in the lift lobby only we believe the third floor it's not that easy to read just looking at it mr. dog you are you familiar with that as a notice that you
02:29:22 familiar with that as a notice that you saw or might have seen during your visit in the summer of 2007 sixteen familiar with them yes does it trigger a
02:29:34 with them yes does it trigger a recollection now naturally I didn't it doesn't okay and it says in the middle if you are safely within your block and
02:29:45 if you are safely within your block and there is a far elsewhere in the block you should initially be safe to stay in your flat keeping the doors and windows closed on arrival the fire brigade will make an assessment and will assist with evacuation if required if you wish to
02:29:59 evacuation if required if you wish to evacuate and leave closing the door behind you and use the staircase to exit the building in your experience was that is that was that common advice to give to residents of tower blocks in the area
02:30:12 to residents of tower blocks in the area of London you were serving yes okay
02:30:26 I want to turn now to another topic which is the first call out to grenfell tower that you deal with in your statements in paragraph 2 on page 2 mr.
02:30:41 statements in paragraph 2 on page 2 mr. chairman we propose that we continued if it's alright with the witness for number 15 or so minutes yes that's fine but we see how we go and if you need a break yeah tell me otherwise we'll run on
02:30:54 yeah tell me otherwise we'll run on until somewhere new towards one o'clock subjects were heard the witness Felix Fraser yes now on page 2 in the second
02:31:05 Fraser yes now on page 2 in the second paragraph of which there are only two you say on the Tuesday on Tuesday the 13th of June 2017 I was on duty from twenty hundred hours on red watch that
02:31:16 twenty hundred hours on red watch that North Kensington fire station elaborate grave it was a bog-standard night checking equipment when the call came in I believe it was a six minutes to 1:00 in the morning you do you remember that
02:31:29 in the morning you do you remember that or is that a time you got from somewhere else no I know that from just I just know that I mean subsequently okay
02:31:42 know that I mean subsequently okay and you then go on to say I presume I was asleep I got ready and got onto the truck I didn't look at the message for the call because this wasn't my job to do so whose job was it to look at that message about me the duty man Jesus
02:31:55 message about me the duty man Jesus person so they would be they'd tear off the teleprinter message find out where to go and give it to the drivers make sure they know where they're going very good on the trucks right and you
02:32:06 good on the trucks right and you remember who did that no ok and you go on to say the call was to a fire and a flat fridge/freezer alight and I was detailed to ride pump g27 - do you remember who gave you the
02:32:17 g27 - do you remember who gave you the information that it was a fire in a flat fridge/freezer alight
02:32:24 it would be the crew manager for secret and did he did he say that to you or did he read it he would have said that to me yes do you remember that or know you know no matches I'm presupposing what
02:32:37 know no matches I'm presupposing what would ordinarily happen on a shout on a fire call so that's what he would do so we know what we're doing okay you saying you're stating fridge/freezer alight just crossing a line back to what Chris secret told you are you sure
02:32:49 Chris secret told you are you sure or are you confident he used the words fridge/freezer know what do you remember you might have in fridge or freezer or a fridge freezer I don't know okay now you are on g27 -
02:33:03 I don't know okay now you are on g27 - that's the pump yes yes and can you remember who else you were with Chris secret crew manager Tom able driving I
02:33:15 secret crew manager Tom able driving I think just no burnin Alex decent Alban yeah I think and you then go on to say
02:33:28 that
02:33:32 you took only a few minutes to get there with no real chat on the way there does G 272 have a mobile data terminal on it
02:33:44 G 272 have a mobile data terminal on it yes ditch anybody in the cab look at the information contained on the mobile data terminal about the building you were going to Truman sir did anybody in the cab in G 272
02:33:58 did anybody in the cab in G 272 only three major secret do you ever him looking I can't vouch for that he would have done but because it's right he's directly in front of him we can't see to the back with no access to it okay did
02:34:09 the back with no access to it okay did he give you any kind of briefing on route not that I remember
02:34:17 you think I want to say two lines down access to the tower was unimpeded we parked directly in front of the tower by the front doors about 30 or 40 feet away
02:34:34 where it was that in relation to g27 one new member directly behind them I think I think they arrived seconds before us we were following them so I'm pretty
02:34:46 we were following them so I'm pretty sure my bladder was in front okay and who was closer to the DRI rising inlets do you remember by a few feet from ladder i-90 okay and will you further
02:35:02 ladder i-90 okay and will you further away from the tower or nearer the tower than g27 one almost parallel to it so every distant really now you say that
02:35:17 three lines up from the bottom we were first there and set out hoses and water
02:35:27 do you remember who set out the hoses on the ground at that point no okay and did you plug - Gigi 272 into
02:35:38 no okay and did you plug - Gigi 272 into a hydrant no that's not like no the hoses I set up would be in the building I did nothing outside the building at all right okay do you know what happened
02:35:51 all right okay do you know what happened with g27
02:35:52 with g27 - in terms of hoses and water supply no no I did do you know where the g2 72 was actually connected to a water supply at that stage don't know actually okay and you had explained I think that
02:36:12 you've been detailed to write G - 72 was your role detailed at roll call yes and that's at the start of the watch isn't
02:36:24 that's at the start of the watch isn't yes and what was your role on that night do you remember um I think I was breathing operators crew cart member any of many of their duties ahead okay
02:36:38 on arrival at groennfell tower what did you see nothing extraordinary at first no fire no smoke until the gentleman
02:36:50 no fire no smoke until the gentleman came out and said spoke to me and said is his flat was on fire did you look up at the tower do you remember yes what did you seal nothing
02:37:01 remember yes what did you seal nothing nothing at all with it and I've been standing extraordinary could you not even see a fire no right I'm okay Duke were you looking at did you look at the east face or but let me just ask you which side of the town hug was South sergeant's at the
02:37:13 town hug was South sergeant's at the south side yeah so you didn't get to look at the e space at all it on the right no you know okay
02:37:26 but so the bottom of page two of your statements do you say a guy outside was screaming of his fridge was on fire he
02:37:37 screaming of his fridge was on fire he was not English but he was speaking English clearly did anybody confirm that with him
02:37:48 with him yes it's freaky who was that me you did yes could you just give us an idea of the conversation how did it go the
02:38:00 the conversation how did it go the conversation would have gone as if I ever see someone who's traumatized that flats on fire yours the first thing one it always wears the flat which flat is it so regardless of how many people or
02:38:11 it so regardless of how many people or what's burning you have to know the location of the fire because that it takes everything that follows I asked him secondly if anybody's in there as he had family members there anybody sleeping in with any perverts proms he
02:38:22 sleeping in with any perverts proms he said there was no one in there where as to what was on fire he said was his fridge and got any other information I could from him as to what he done he said he shut the doors and we knows he'd come out he'd left his flat straight
02:38:34 come out he'd left his flat straight away and he left immediately I think he was he was still on the phone to the control
02:38:40 control I see so he when you spoke to him he was on the telephone you think you have a recording of my voice speaking to yes
02:39:00 I just wonder whether we can play that
02:39:07 if I wonder what mr. document manager you could play the audio of the corn just a minute before we do that I think you explained to mr. Dorn of what you're
02:39:20 you explained to mr. Dorn of what you're going to do what he's gonna hit yes in case it's going to cause some difficulty yes sir I will certainly do that mr. doggy what I was proposing to do now was
02:39:33 doggy what I was proposing to do now was to play the audio of a call that mr. schibetta who is the tenant of flat 60 made to control and we've got it timed
02:39:44 made to control and we've got it timed at one o'clock and 27 seconds first of all the you okay to hear an audio call of that night I'm serious yeah if at any stage you're not happy with the signal
02:39:57 stage you're not happy with the signal and we'll stop thank you okay I don't think this requires a trigger warning because there's no visual but well just to give it anyway I understand
02:40:09 I might be able to identify whether it was him who we can hear in the background me to say that we may
02:40:23 background me to say that we may complete a picture not but it make it please well what we'll do then let's press on and I'll think about it over the life
02:40:31 the life bunny countries and when they have to come back to this Mississauga so no problem there again we may not yeah do
02:40:43 problem there again we may not yeah do you know which other firefighter was with you when you had your conversation with mr. with the individual possibly watch managed out and was close by right
02:40:54 watch managed out and was close by right possibly behind me okay
02:41:02 now in your contemporaneous notes that you may just after the incident commanders ask you to look at those they
02:41:14 commanders ask you to look at those they are three pages in length and I just wanted to show you page one
02:41:21 those are your that's the first page of your contemporary nursemaids yes can you read them yes I like the bit I want to ask you about if you go down the page
02:41:35 ask you about if you go down the page you say on arrival this is they're just in the middle on arrival residents were leaving and they man said well perhaps you could read that for us
02:41:49 residents were leaving and a man said it's on the fourth floor flat 16 said his fridge mr. light he said no one's in the flat right now what I wanted to ask you about was residents leaving now can
02:42:03 you about was residents leaving now can you remember how many residents you saw they know they may be it may be a handful two or three nothing that would make you think something major was
02:42:14 make you think something major was happening and where were they do you remember coming out the main door right downstairs and do you remember the weather at that stage but what what condition were they in at that stage I'm
02:42:25 condition were they in at that stage I'm fine
02:42:25 fine right and you then say in your statement going back to it
02:42:38 in the second line therefore there was nothing unusual I went up to the fourth floor and found which classic was by feeling that the front door was warm I don't recall any smoke having a nice
02:42:50 don't recall any smoke having a nice make at this point I think it was flat one one six on the fourth floor first of all that number one one six is plastic it's wrong flat sixteen is Leslie apologies how did you get to the fourth
02:43:03 apologies how did you get to the fourth floor do you remember do no no do you remember whether you took the stairs all the lift I thought I took the stairs but apparently this footage me in a lift I
02:43:15 apparently this footage me in a lift I think yes well let's just work this through are you okay to look at the CCTV stills okay can we start with tab 1 which is CCTV camera for @oh 101 16
02:43:28 which is CCTV camera for @oh 101 16 subject to adjustment which is inq1 20
02:43:34 [Music] identify yourself in that picture that's me yet well which one the middle one right carrying enforcer in my right
02:43:48 one right carrying enforcer in my right hand yes holding a howling a bar in the in my left hand right okay so that's a Halligan bar and all that time is it yes right
02:43:57 right what's that just again just reminds the difference between an enforcer and a Halligan bar an enforcer is basically a small battering ram handheld batching room I'd see it my right hand you hold
02:44:08 room I'd see it my right hand you hold it with two hands and you smash into the door frame or the door John howling umpires is basically a long bar like a Jimmy but it has an adze at one end at Lord's
02:44:19 Lord's like a flat tongue at one end you can wedge open the door you can it's quite handy can break in use with it so it's different ways of getting breaking entry poisoning right so you do
02:44:30 breaking entry poisoning right so you do less damage with a Halligan bar than you do with an enforcer you would yes okay okay then the next picture is at 101 19 which is inq1 to 1 and I think we can
02:44:45 which is inq1 to 1 and I think we can identify you on the up picture but you'll probably do better than we sign the second one from the bottom right again with the enforcer in your right hand okay and that's at a 1 a 119
02:44:56 right hand okay and that's at a 1 a 119 and then the next one is at o 101 58 which is I in hewed 152 starting presently I would say I am second from
02:45:07 presently I would say I am second from the left right okay so second from the end of the cube going into lift there yes and then the next one is C 18
02:45:18 there yes and then the next one is C 18 the camera left with a1 a2 15 or thereabouts which is I in cube 1 2 3 now that's what a difficult picture to make sense or do you think you can you remember being in the lift in that sort
02:45:33 remember being in the lift in that sort of crush you know no I mean the possible question but can you do you might be able to identify yourself no all right
02:45:46 able to identify yourself no all right and then last one there's CCTV 1801 Oh 259 I
02:45:53 259 I one two four which is an exit from the lift
02:46:01 I would say the ones either side of crew managers so that's about to be in secret one of the Middle's Dave because he's small mmm like the one nearest doesn't
02:46:14 small mmm like the one nearest doesn't look like me because the torch is slightly different and I think that won't be a set so I'm not sure I was in the right okay so by a process of elimination having shown you those pictures and doing your best we can how do you got to
02:46:25 doing your best we can how do you got to the fourth floor the likelihood is that I walk because I don't like this okay
02:46:31 this I just we have a lot of people trapped in this and it's they just tend to be unreliable as it was that night so given the choice I'll tend to walk three or four flights myself okay I wasn't carrying heavy equipment so it was easy
02:46:42 carrying heavy equipment so it was easy to go those days now you went straight to the flu say in your state with you went to the fourth floor did you not stop on the second floor I will come to
02:46:55 stop on the second floor I will come to my equipment at the bridgehead on the second floor and then the fourth floor so the guys were to come out that if at the same time as me if we did you traveled separately and you would've
02:47:07 traveled separately and you would've done so I quit me in the same place did you remember whether there was anybody at the second floor when you arrived there on your way up to the fourth floor no I remember I would have I would have
02:47:21 no I remember I would have I would have spoken directly to Korea and your secrets telling what I was doing so yeah look that was my next question you told you think you've got trolled crew manager secret you were going to the fourth yes maybe that doubt yeah and you left him
02:47:32 maybe that doubt yeah and you left him on the second setting up the bridgehead to do and then went up to the for that is that right yes that's right swear you suggest to you what happened that was there no yeah that's what Chris secret is setup retail
02:47:46 now in your statement you say I plugged this is four lines down from the top of page three I plugged into the dry riser as it was a protected stairwell I think
02:48:00 as it was a protected stairwell I think we set in on the fourth and also plugged in on the third
02:48:10 did you which did you do first we did the fourth-floor first cuz I went up to
02:48:23 the fourth-floor first cuz I went up to check the flat make sure it's the right flat so just slowly walked me through what you did you get to the tenth floor dump my equipment at the second floor
02:48:37 dump my equipment at the second floor because I'm lucky he's breaking equipment by myself to open up a fire door by myself so I then made my way up to the fourth floor the the most important thing is to find out the location to fire you look on the fire
02:48:48 location to fire you look on the fire doors to the fourth door lobby there's smoke panels glass panels which allow you reinforced glass allow you to see the conditions inside the lobby completely clear absolutely fine walked in move down to the right located the
02:49:01 in move down to the right located the door at 16:00 às the man had told me the door wasn't hot it was a make a little bit warm around the middle but I could smell smoke couldn't see any smoke but if it smell smoke burning inside therefore I did check the letterbox or
02:49:14 therefore I did check the letterbox or anything else just knew as that flat confirms the guys by radio this is the flat is 16 4th floor ran down David ill Oh Justin Oh burn would have helped me
02:49:26 Oh Justin Oh burn would have helped me get hose up 2 lines of 45 mil hose set into the dry riser on the 4th look ok so you've just described going into the 4th
02:49:37 you've just described going into the 4th floor lobby checking the door at 16 did you then come out of the lobby and go down the stairs again yes and then so
02:49:48 down the stairs again yes and then so who brought up the hose the 45 the most a 2nd to the 4th floor most likely just in a very taper tiller right we don't 100 ok and they came into the lobby on
02:50:01 100 ok and they came into the lobby on the 4th floor today yes and and who said who actually physically set the hose into the dry riser main outlet on the fourth floor Boober I think it
02:50:12 on the fourth floor Boober I think it was me
02:50:12 was me but if they said it was then that's equally plausible ok and what then happened with the setting in on the third floor who didn't who took charge
02:50:24 third floor who didn't who took charge of that I that's where my statement is incorrect I think I say I say it on the fifth floor when I feel flat it's the third floor so I went down and we set it
02:50:36 third floor so I went down and we set it on the fourth floor flake the hose out told the team to go in we went down to the third floor so the floor below so
02:50:47 the third floor so the floor below so you take hoes up into the fourth floor for backing up crew I see okay so because you say in two places I think you say in the fifth line on page three I think we set in on the fault and also
02:50:59 I think we set in on the fault and also plugged in on the third yes that's what I was asking you about yeah you're right six lines down from that you say Dave smashed access to the dry riser on the third yes and Justin had been plugged in
02:51:11 third yes and Justin had been plugged in all the fifth no that's the third that should be third yes after that I had tried to what was turning the wrong way correct
02:51:17 correct so Justin just in general terms in terms of the order of things we've got with you explain how you set in on the fourth floor
02:51:26 floor yes and then Dave buddy a smashed access to the dry riser on the third and they've been plugged it in yes yes and you were turning the wrong way
02:51:38 you were turning the wrong way yes okay did you write did you come down to the third floor yes from the path to having set in on the fourth floor yes right and then tell me what happened
02:51:49 right and then tell me what happened with the 45 millimeter hose from the dry rise outlet on the third floor on the lobby
02:51:55 lobby you do with the hose I think I was left Institute until we were sure it wouldn't been charged until we were sure we needed it so ordinarily a 45 mil jet is is a suitable way to attack for it flat
02:52:09 is a suitable way to attack for it flat fire in a several room flat by you shouldn't be backing up but with belt and braces
02:52:19 I'm
02:52:24 going back to the identification of the flat on the fourth floor you say you've felt the front door you say no statement three lines down from the top I've went
02:52:36 three lines down from the top I've went up the fourth on found which flat it was by feeling that the front door was warm my question is what had you not been in told that it was flat 16 where the fire
02:52:47 told that it was flat 16 where the fire was yes but it no disrespect to anyone who is talking to you in the flats on fire that they're often traumatized confused sometimes they they embarrass
02:52:59 confused sometimes they they embarrass what they've done it's a friend's house they're not sure they're under staying there short term they don't know what floor it's on Mike the fourth might be the fifth it might be I might have misheard him it might have been six zero not sixteen so it is crucial to find out
02:53:12 not sixteen so it is crucial to find out which flat it is if you have that wrong information and it was plus 60 we could be several floors below having set up a bridgehead of a be a crew ready break into the wrong flat and the fire going ahead so that's why I was very specific
02:53:23 ahead so that's why I was very specific about that flow yes I see
02:53:34 and once you plugged in on the third floor rather once Justin evern had plugged in the hose on the third floor where do you go next if
02:53:50 the third floor where do you go next if you're honest then we kind of waited so the be a crew I assured them in Charlie about to be Danny Brown into the fourth floor and they're telling everyone come back so we all behind the fire doors and a protected stairwell
02:54:01 fire doors and a protected stairwell move down to the third floor set in the hose and then waited I don't think we charged the third floor house because it would be a waste if you if you did that you'd obviously lose pressure on that on
02:54:12 you'd obviously lose pressure on that on the line above so unless you need it you wouldn't charge it and it essentially waited so we could have moved down to the the bridgehead but because we're in a protected stairwell one floor hello we've got our sufficient cover right and
02:54:24 we've got our sufficient cover right and plugging in on the floor below the floor of fire is I think standard practice for high-rise fires is it the initial entry should be made from the floor below and
02:54:39 should be made from the floor below and does that carry with it a risk that smoke would leak out into the protected stairwell yes it's inherently is inherently dangerous for that reason was there a reason why having set in on the fourth floor because it was as you say
02:54:53 fourth floor because it was as you say it was safe to do so you also felt it necessary to set in on the third floor we set on the third floor it's like I said it's it's simply to back up the second crew so if they do
02:55:04 to back up the second crew so if they do get in trouble if they lose water if they find there is casualties in there they need help or the fire is overwhelming them you've got a backup crew to come up from the third to help them so you really think you're lucky in
02:55:16 them so you really think you're lucky in some respects and Grenfell Tarrant the fourth floor has its own dry riser because it was safe to do so in the lobby
02:55:21 lobby we've plugged in that level but as soon as you open the fire doors you're compromised in the stairwell but we didn't actually do that we waited on a third with the hose we don't Iike what they we needed which the work did it take long for water to
02:55:35 the work did it take long for water to become available in the fourth floor hoes remember not especially long that I remember okay now in the second main paragraph on page three of your statement you say I hung
02:55:47 three of your statement you say I hung back I think you say I hung back in case of backdraft yes can you describe where you were standing when Charlie about it being Danny Brown
02:55:59 when Charlie about it being Danny Brown went in they would be on the fourth floor I would be one floor below possibly in the lobby area must be on the stairwell right there well okay did
02:56:10 the stairwell right there well okay did you serve by that answer can we take it that you didn't then see them going into no no there's a risk when they when they open a compartment is the backdrop conditions there they oxygenate that
02:56:22 conditions there they oxygenate that atmosphere they then can it's extremely dangerous for any person or in that area right I see and
02:56:39 you say in the third line of the second paragraph on page three it was just a fridge fire so I was waiting for them to say that it was out yeah I thought they were taking their time as this usually
02:56:50 were taking their time as this usually takes 15 minutes tops I remember thinking come on it's just a fridge just pausing there you were in the third floor lobby or on the stairs and the third floor as you just told us what were you how would you receive a message
02:57:03 were you how would you receive a message from them
02:57:04 from them Howard IRA see how how you expect him to receive a message from them I wouldn't expect to receive any specific message from them so in your statement when you say I was waiting for them to say that
02:57:16 say I was waiting for them to say that it was out I always expected them to come out to the billet so if it's technically a fridge is a small object as for each fire it's on fire but not especially flammable and it's not in a kitchen especially cloud as opposed to
02:57:29 kitchen especially cloud as opposed to furnishings of a lounge so you would expect an experience would you take that they shouldn't take very long and therefore they'll come out and tell you they're done yes this is albeit not
02:57:42 they're done yes this is albeit not maybe an appropriate name for a break if that's who does it yes it does mr. Chen sir well I'm Troy soon - mr. dog look great now and we'll resume at 2 o'clock Canton thank you and I must ask you not
02:57:54 Canton thank you and I must ask you not to talk to anyone else about your evidence or anything relating to it over the break right you'd like to go to the ocean peace
02:58:08 thank you very much 2 o'clock please
02:58:19 you