Outbreak of fire (9 July 2018 Pt 2 of 2)

Full transcript

00:00:03 right I see mr. Doggett as a Backson mr. chairman yes come in please have the witness back thank you

00:00:12 [Music]

00:00:28 ready to carry on yes I'd really be thinking yes mr. doggy thank you and before we broke for lunch I wanted to

00:00:39 before we broke for lunch I wanted to see if we could identify the gentleman that you spoke to in the entrance of the tower before you went up into the building and I wonder if we might be able to do that by a photograph of him I

00:00:50 able to do that by a photograph of him I wonder if we could just have up on the screen please mr. documents director inq triple sort of cook six-zero is 44 I in cue number 44 just to see if this

00:01:03 in cue number 44 just to see if this helps with your recollection now here is a man coming back into the tower do you

00:01:14 a man coming back into the tower do you think having looked at that that that's the man you spoke to about a fridge outside the tower before you enter possibly yes that kind of build

00:01:26 possibly yes that kind of build complexion hair yes okay thank you thank you very much now can I take you back to your statement you've told us that you were on the third floor or in the stairs

00:01:39 were on the third floor or in the stairs and then you say halfway down page three of your statement just above halfway members of the public

00:01:50 just above halfway members of the public were coming past me on the stairs but where were you standing when that was happening

00:02:00 I can't see that but I'm so let me help you

00:02:05 you it was as you go it's halfway down page three just I have to the reference to come come on itself just a fridge mister fridge and then you see it says the done

00:02:22 fridge and then you see it says the done just put the botanist screen members of public used it remember the polity comes out yes sir sake halfway down you say I think it was Justin said to me yet the screen third

00:02:38 Justin said to me yet the screen third line damp what we blow the screen it was just a fridge members of the public for coming past me on the stairs there yeah where were you standing do you think when that was happening I would have been in the stairwell of the third floor

00:02:51 been in the stairwell of the third floor okay and what sort of condition were these people in in terms of they were

00:03:02 these people in in terms of they were signed do not distressed no signs of exposure to fire or smoke they were fine they were fight did you speak to any other no no did they try to speak to you no and then you say I think it was

00:03:16 no and then you say I think it was Justin that said to me but a woman was complaining of a fire on the seventh floor that's actually in sorry to interrupt me that's actually incorrect was fifth floor fifth floor so could we

00:03:27 was fifth floor fifth floor so could we just replace the word seventh for the word fifth yes right so where was Justin standing when he said that he would be with me on the third floor stairwell right just what the third floor okay so

00:03:40 right just what the third floor okay so had he come from Dan from anywhere or I think he'd been he'd been I think he'd been up one or two floors I think that's where a lady had told him on the fifth floor my flats on fire or that's firing

00:03:51 floor my flats on fire or that's firing her flat right

00:03:56 and you said I said to him smoke or fire or smoke and travel and said definitely fire so he said he said definitely fire and then you say I thought as far

00:04:08 and then you say I thought as far on the sentence again is that again that should be Fisheries thieves yeah right fire doesn't spread on a block of flats you so did you have a conversation with him about what you were thinking yes

00:04:20 him about what you were thinking yes what is he say because what he was saying was basically the the fire had spread so smoke and travel anywhere but when he said a lot of people think there's there fats on fire just because

00:04:31 there's there fats on fire just because the smoke in the vicinity of the flag they left a window open and smoke from the joining flat enters their flat they think it's on fire it's quite common and so I always kind of rolled my eyes as a smoke or is it actually fire and when he

00:04:42 smoke or is it actually fire and when he said fire that's an entirely different situation

00:04:45 situation so now fire has been confirmed in the fifth floor I think he was on the radio trying to say that and then he ran upstairs I ran up with him you went to the 5th floor 6th floor possibly

00:04:56 the 5th floor 6th floor possibly something okay and then you say what you say fire doesn't spread on a block of flats what was your thinking at that stage about whether compartment ation that grenfell

00:05:08 whether compartment ation that grenfell tile was still holding up clearly complementation failed right but as in with with for example chef was caught it was not it's it means we have

00:05:19 caught it was not it's it means we have to get a fire crew in there on the fifth floor okay did you have any thoughts about how why compartment ation had failed so as to lead to fire spread the usual wafer compartment to fail will

00:05:31 the usual wafer compartment to fail will be through the window either windows been left open and it's run on the outside of the building cladding not withstand the enormous a normal buildings a company building it can travel at the outside of a building to

00:05:42 travel at the outside of a building to the next floor up cash the curtains and then to the next apartment right so okay and when you were with

00:05:52 okay mr. chairman we have a good problem attentive him right how long will that take

00:06:06 excuse me so we sit there while you do it or would you rather all right well why don't you take a seat from a single exit turn this panel as long as I is it on Ross it seems to be

00:06:53 better run it we'll just sit here for time well

00:07:14 [Music]

00:07:37 right you ready to get mr. doggy so just to say that we're clear you were standing where you with Justin Oh burn in the stairway by the third floor lobby

00:07:51 in the stairway by the third floor lobby when he told you that there was fire on the fifth yes yes did you radio that news down to the bridgehead either me or Justin we're done so definitely I said

00:08:02 Justin we're done so definitely I said remember which no okay part of us would in in terms of your recollection how confident are you that one or other of you did radio that under percent understand you okay and where

00:08:15 percent understand you okay and where did you go next I then went up to to the fifth floor I think Justin was ahead of me

00:08:23 me the mark on one floor beyond that and I think I helped like a be a team in there so be 18 Tom Abel's team right came up

00:08:36 so be 18 Tom Abel's team right came up that's how I know is the fifth floor because Tom has the same recollection as me as a lady in there in the corner with you I described help me earn escape and who did Tom Tom Mabel come up with got

00:08:51 who did Tom Tom Mabel come up with got its name remember I remember from Hammersmith Lane Departure we're not doing awesome right thank you and you say in your statement just in the next sentence this is exactly

00:09:03 the next sentence this is exactly halfway down page three I went up to the sixth floor yes maybe the seventh getting people did you go on to the fifth floor yes

00:09:15 fifth floor yes so you went to the fifth so how does it get you went from the third floor stay at stairs

00:09:20 at stairs so the third lost stairwell yeah just as said there's fire on the fifth so there's people coming out by that point more and more push past them came upstairs to the fifth floor right I was

00:09:32 upstairs to the fifth floor right I was helping a lady a gentleman and I like that

00:09:35 that a couple I described with their child were coming out of a corner flat with a pram on the fifth floor was on the fifth floor as a singer she's a fifth floor because Tom Abel Elaine arch were committed only on the fifth floor right

00:09:47 committed only on the fifth floor right never went above the fifth the whole night so I'm confident with the fifth when I saw Tom in the stairwell I told him away and where the fire is because it would be directly above the fire on

00:10:00 it would be directly above the fire on the fourth floor which would be the kitchen okay just pausing there what were the conditions like in the fifth but at the fifth floor in the stairs first of all in the stairs clear and in the lobby clear pretty clear pretty

00:10:13 the lobby clear pretty clear pretty clear there was a little bit of smoke coming up the gentleman's flat maybe maybe smoke in the area or maybe his flat but enough for them to want to come out and they weren't on you in that area right did you take any steps to knock on

00:10:25 right did you take any steps to knock on any of the doors on yes not son of the doors on that floor all of them pretty sure all of them yeah okay you and who tom was with me why not sure they would they did that before they set in Justin

00:10:38 they did that before they set in Justin may well have been there because he remembers the smoke from the fifth floor they're coming out being more significant they should have been by that point I've moved up so I helped the lady with her pram because she wanted to

00:10:50 lady with her pram because she wanted to put the baby in the pram and go in the lift and I made it fairly clear that they didn't have that option you eat right they had something there with me and okay so we're still on the fifth you say just a few lines down there was a

00:11:02 say just a few lines down there was a woman with a baby who was scared trying to put them in a pram with him I'm looking man and a young kitty she was just faffing about saying about getting the lift I said you're not going and if just get out I nearly threw them down the stairs can you just describe to me

00:11:17 the stairs can you just describe to me it was there a sense of urgency yes why was that because complementation failed so the fire was had spread to their floor switch I didn't think I

00:11:28 their floor switch I didn't think I didn't think at that time that fire would spread around the building laterally to their flat but clearly they were on their way out so they'd smell smoke and smoke easily four more lethal than fire so for that reason I was then

00:11:41 than fire so for that reason I was then anxious and also had a child with him so I picked at the baby pushed it into her chest and said you've got to leave now escorted them out down down the stairs they were anxious and confused but we just got another building yeah now Tom

00:11:54 just got another building yeah now Tom Abel I think says that he and Archer went with you to the fifth floor yes lap 26 an attempt to make entry do you remember that making entrant or trying to enter flat out the desert I

00:12:05 trying to enter flat out the desert I wouldn't be in the lobby area because the lobby area will be compromised with smoke again potential backdraft or just smoke logging so I'd be smoke so I was in the stairwell on my way to the 6th

00:12:16 in the stairwell on my way to the 6th island right so you go up to the 6th and what was the stairway like on the way up to the tower at that point clear and did you go into the lobby on the safe yes and what were the conditions like there

00:12:28 and what were the conditions like there do you remember clear nothing not extraordinarily smoky but people started coming out I think it was from the flat area directly above the kitchen the fourth the fifth and the

00:12:39 kitchen the fourth the fifth and the sixth I think they came out right and in your statement you go on to say just three lines up from the end of the parrot that main long paragraph on page three I had a feeling that things were

00:12:50 three I had a feeling that things were getting bad I knew it wasn't good it was smoky in the flat but just wisps in the lobby which flatter you described that they're the one I described as the sixth floor there was actually the fifth right

00:13:01 floor there was actually the fifth right that was the flat so it was smoking the flat just whispered Lobby that's the couple who were leaving with her baby I said so the reason they left is because those wispy smoking they're black okay I see and you say not too

00:13:15 black okay I see and you say not too dark and maybe a at this point I was going up and down could you explain what you mean you say I was going up and down up and down the stairs escorting different people so people came out the sixth I wore them down run back up let's

00:13:27 sixth I wore them down run back up let's call someone else okay so how many people do you think came out of the sixth floor she be honest as I said in my statement there it seemed like everyone was getting out of four or five flaps that

00:13:38 getting out of four or five flaps that should actually say the six flats on each bill so everyone was seemed to be getting out she'd be people at each door so I moved I went downstairs to my basin did you get up to the seventh floor I'm

00:13:51 did you get up to the seventh floor I'm not sure I did if I didn't it's because other people are up there Justin was up there I might have gone as far as the seventh and done the same there but I could see people coming out now so my concern was if you if you apply the rule

00:14:04 concern was if you if you apply the rule of compartment firefighting therefore someone has to get into the fifth that's Tom and I realize we haven't got many people there at all people doing water officers bridgehead just in me and Davis there's hardly anyone to get breathing

00:14:15 there's hardly anyone to get breathing up rates on don't know in the next trucks are coming haven't heard any radio messages that we've made it up to 810 pumps with the as far as I knew there was still only us four there and I

00:14:26 there was still only us four there and I support going to be there for some time so I would remember trying to send messages on the radio trying to say what was doing don't think anything got through because people were talking constantly and that's why I went

00:14:38 constantly and that's why I went downstairs so I could see people leaving on the immediate floors around the fire floor that's why I went downstairs get breathing upright song because I have to attack a fire and the next compartment up on the sixth wall right now just

00:14:49 up on the sixth wall right now just taking this a bit once in stages you're on the sixth floor yes did you radio down what you had found on the sixth floor tried to yes tried to who did you try to contact but I would be on channel

00:15:02 try to contact but I would be on channel one

00:15:02 one so anyone in the command channel right did you succeed do you think you're getting through I don't think so no why do you say that because there's constant traffic so there's constant rate obviously I didn't know it but oncoming

00:15:13 obviously I didn't know it but oncoming vehicles other people using the command chair it's constant so there's constant chatter you can't actually get in with your message there's no way of prioritizing my message regardless of how how much of a priority is

00:15:25 how how much of a priority is okay and could you hear on your radio anybody else trying to radio down to Mike doubt it and all the bridgehead about what they were finding on on the

00:15:37 about what they were finding on on the floors inside the tower over there yes I think Justin did at one point and I tried I don't think there's anyone else there really to have done it the PA crew may well have done as well because they may well have said that on because

00:15:48 they may well have said that on because they had a very set and they'd be on a different channel which would be less congested than ours because the only people on the channel 6 will be the VA crew in the bridgehead everybody else on

00:15:59 crew in the bridgehead everybody else on the fire ground everyone can watch manager down is on channel 1 and on the 6th floor did you take any steps to alert the other occupant not on doors yet what did you do so you knocked on the doors people coming out and when I

00:16:10 the doors people coming out and when I was satisfied that people were awake and emerging from each of the flats and someone else someone else was there with me and they were coming out at that point I live downstairs something go and can you describe for us what physical

00:16:23 can you describe for us what physical condition they were in not distressed no ones suffering the effects of smoke inhalation could you did you get a look into any of the flats on the sixth floor no so you know and if I did it was it

00:16:36 no so you know and if I did it was it was there was nothing of concerned it was more of a precaution cuz there's a fire directly been open now how long did you do you think you spent on the same floor few minutes maybe two minutes more

00:16:47 floor few minutes maybe two minutes more one minute and where did just in Auvergne go Justin would be above me I think

00:16:56 so it was anybody else with you on the sixth floor not that I can remember

00:17:04 and the conditions in the lobby on the sixth floor as you left clear still here and then after the sixth floor you say well where did you go next and should

00:17:15 well where did you go next and should ask you um I went out sorry either either went to the siren where the floors look the same but I would have gone over to the seventh floor or Justin said he was going to the seventh floor

00:17:26 said he was going to the seventh floor so Justin probably would have been with me on the 6th and then he went up and up and I went down right it might be a set but also because it wasn't happy with the radio traffic I would have gone out to tell them personally when I that's

00:17:37 to tell them personally when I that's what I said to Mike now and when I went out right let's take this a bit more slowly so he say you left the sixth floor and again went we went down to the bridge head

00:17:48 bridge head I passed the bridge head yes okay now in your statement at the bottom of page three you say on the bridge I saw Brian here keep the watch manatee from

00:17:59 here keep the watch manatee from Kensington there just to put that in context that's just after the end of the paragraph before where you say it seemed like everyone was getting out the four or five flats so I went downstairs yes so it looks from that as if you leave I

00:18:12 so it looks from that as if you leave I think is this right the sixth floor and go down to the bridge head yes I mean yes so on the bridge I saw Brian who keeps the watch manager from Kensington do you did he get the impression as to

00:18:23 do you did he get the impression as to how long he had been there no not we not long might have been not right and you say I said to him it's spread yes

00:18:37 what exactly did you tell him do you remember I would have told him that it had gone to the fifth floor but he would have already known that because he would have committed Tom Abel and Wayne Archer

00:18:49 have committed Tom Abel and Wayne Archer to the fifth floor so he would have known that I would have told him that smoke was on the sixth floor possibly the seventh but the fire at the moment was on the fifth floor right can I just

00:19:02 was on the fifth floor right can I just ask you to look at your contemporaneous notes

00:19:13 on page 2 the 1/3 of the way down you say I went to ECA and told them I'm told

00:19:25 say I went to ECA and told them I'm told watch manager O'Keeffe this no I just wanted to understand what this is because earlier if on that page you say and correct me if I'm wrong mr. Dogman

00:19:37 and correct me if I'm wrong mr. Dogman when I read when I'm reading or writing but I think you say we informed be a control what we had done yes Oh burn FF a burn told me the fire had

00:19:48 Oh burn FF a burn told me the fire had spread upward yes informed by residents evacuating we set into the dry riser on the 5th floor we were then informed by residents that

00:19:59 we were then informed by residents that smoke was on higher floors and that flats were actually on fire now first of all where were you when you were told that I think that takes us back a little

00:20:11 that I think that takes us back a little in the story where were you when you were told by residences the flats were actually on fire I was told that via Justin she'd been informed by residents so that would been fifth floor another

00:20:23 so that would been fifth floor another fifth floor right and how were you told that but because it probably verbally verbally by I was I was in know Justin was told Furby of our residence which is when he told me and I roll my eyes and said is it fire or is it smoke that's

00:20:35 said is it fire or is it smoke that's that compensates that conversate ok that's dick then you say I went to easier entry control and told them and told leave it is can you remember what

00:20:47 told leave it is can you remember what it was you said to watch manager O'Keefe

00:20:52 that it had spread to the fifth floor that was smoky residents were coming down and they don't evacuate adore or raise the alarm on the sixth floor the fifth floor

00:21:03 fifth floor people down which he didn't own because they would they would have to have come past him yes and he would have known v flowers will spit Flores on fire because Tom Abel and Wayne Archer he committed

00:21:14 Tom Abel and Wayne Archer he committed them to that floor I think I hope Tom set into the hydrant the young dry riser on the fifth floor so do you remember telling watch manager who keeps that

00:21:25 telling watch manager who keeps that higher flats were on fire fly over my floor yeah yes then the fourth what did he draw what he said or did in response

00:21:39 no actually I didn't really hang around me and who else do you remember was at the bridgehead at that point and it's

00:21:52 the bridgehead at that point and it's decent oven I think I don't think Justin was at that point I think he was a higher floors at that point right

00:22:09 and you then gave out your statements

00:22:14 you say in second line a youngish white woman said to me that her bed-bound dad

00:22:26 woman said to me that her bed-bound dad was on the 15th day I said to her that he'll be fine a 10th will spread afar would be unthinkable as they gained plan to that

00:22:40 where do you remember where where did you speak to her I wasn't the bridgehead at that point right she she'd come out from whichever floor

00:22:51 she she'd come out from whichever floor she was on right did she mention a flat number No

00:22:59 and you said the ten floors did you say a ten floor spread of fire was unthinkable no that's what I thought when I actually said to her I actually said to her and he'll be fine

00:23:10 said to her and he'll be fine it said the 15th floors the safest place to be he's more than 10 floors away from the fire at that stage did you did you

00:23:21 the fire at that stage did you did you know that the fire had spread up to the seventh floor no how far up did you did you know just over this friend and you hung on to the fifth floor cuz I helped Tom set it and

00:23:33 fifth floor cuz I helped Tom set it and I knew they were fighting fire on the fifth floor that I've been confirmed by Justin Riley residence on the sixth floor the reports of smoke on the sixth floor which is why I start to evacuate if the sixth floor I think Justin was

00:23:44 if the sixth floor I think Justin was with me then and because if the smoke that the fire might go up one more as I did a Shepherd score go up another floor that's where I'm you need to be aware as know how to get a settle right given the

00:23:57 know how to get a settle right given the speed of spread of fire between the fourth and the fifth floor and the spread of smoke up from the sick see your which you have experienced what

00:24:09 your which you have experienced what made you think that it was unthinkable that fire would spread further as far as the tenth floor because it's never happened it's never happened in my experience or anyone in living memory in

00:24:21 experience or anyone in living memory in London that's that an entire block of flats has gone up this would be it would be unthinkable you wouldn't like one or two three floors like a shepherd's bush Court maybe but for to travel literally faster

00:24:34 maybe but for to travel literally faster than I can run about the floors would be just don't think about this I believed it was smoke traveling up through open windows cause it's summertime it's a it's one of the probably the hottest evening of the year Circle has their

00:24:46 evening of the year Circle has their windows over especially at higher levels because there's no security risk so people have windows wide open so it's not unusual for people to experience smoke people from an adjoining lock tower block if the winds in that direction so people often think they're

00:24:58 direction so people often think they're at their flats or on fire but actually it's just smoke so for to travel two three four five floors wouldn't be unusual that's all but for it to be to be actually fire to be on fire flats to

00:25:10 be actually fire to be on fire flats to be servants for the compartment to fail be penetrated by fire and actually be on fire in minutes is unthinkable at that point did you have any thoughts at the

00:25:22 point did you have any thoughts at the time about about where the smoke on the sixth floor is coming from usually as I said it'd be through windows and it

00:25:33 said it'd be through windows and it would usually be and because it had been the fire or the fifth was reported to be on the same same place in the building as the fourth floor fire therefore it

00:25:44 as the fourth floor fire therefore it seems to be going directly vertically up it's not spreading laterally which could have been more of an issue and it's spreading upwards therefore you would think it's going from window to window open windows smoke possibly fire

00:25:55 open windows smoke possibly fire we've been expected to go much further when you spoke to the young woman at the bridgehead did she say anything to you

00:26:06 bridgehead did she say anything to you you remember about the conditions on the 15th floor no no she didn't say there's only kids report any smoke she was a suffering from smoke inhalation she was just worried and parind people often are

00:26:18 just worried and parind people often are if they come out of a building they tow there's a fire there's a fire we're actually there they're like 10 floors above the fire they're not involved in it they smell smoke and just evacuate themselves and actually it's one

00:26:29 themselves and actually it's one compartment with a window open we extinguish that fire in a fire that happens

00:26:34 happens nearly every high-rise so with people thinking they don't they can smell smoke and strong smell of smoke they don't know where it's coming from so there that's not unusual and to be honest I presume she was the same and did you

00:26:45 presume she was the same and did you have at that stage - do you have any idea as to what was happening on the exterior of the tower no didn't find out so I went outside do you have any communications yourself with Mike doubt

00:26:58 communications yourself with Mike doubt if he was standing on it silent yes and what were those communications and as I left because the the the massive amount of radio chatter that was got constant I

00:27:09 of radio chatter that was got constant I haven't heard the messages have been making it making pumps 8 or 10 or 15 so as I left I ran past him and he was running around and I said if you made

00:27:20 running around and I said if you made this up to like eight or ten because I thought this is gonna be a at least two flats on fire and he said I made it up to 15 and I just said good I may not turn around and sort of dueling okay we'll come to that

00:27:34 sort of dueling okay we'll come to that in a bit more detail in a moment before we do can I just ask you you say in your statement at the bottom of page three

00:27:46 statement at the bottom of page three Brian and Justin though burn for doing the board Chris secret was the office of with me Hannah Smith will also there by then as half an hour had gone have gone

00:27:58 then as half an hour had gone have gone by so

00:28:03 first of all you say is this right that Judge after New Bern was was a buzz at the bridgehead yes about that point he was yes

00:28:13 was yes so he'd gone up into the town come back down yes and do you think he heard your conversation with the woman I don't know I don't know if he was there at that

00:28:24 I don't know if he was there at that point or shortly after or he was there he was busy setting up a bridgehead and setting up new boards or I don't know when when this happened and he was at the bridgehead and you were of the

00:28:35 the bridgehead and you were of the bridgehead did you have any discussion with him about his journey up into the town not that I recall right so did he did he say anything to

00:28:46 right so did he did he say anything to you about the conditions he'd experienced higher up in the tower no

00:28:53 what did you know what what anyone did about rescuing the bed-bound man and 15th floor at that stage you know

00:29:06 you say Chris secret was the officer with me what was he doing I think his Brian O'Keefe manager O'Keefe was now in charge of the Bridget he's a senior officer Oh senior to Chris

00:29:17 he's a senior officer Oh senior to Chris yeah therefore Chris is then free to do another task we went outside to get our BSS yes and you say at the top of page

00:29:30 BSS yes and you say at the top of page four I ran outside to get my mind set on back at the pump was which was in the same place at this point now we have

00:29:41 same place at this point now we have your exit time as oh one twenty eight eleven seconds or so can I just show you the picture it's it's it's inq1 to five

00:29:52 the picture it's it's it's inq1 to five or tap six and the CCTV vanya now may be difficult to identify yourself from they from the back but yeah would that be a

00:30:04 from the back but yeah would that be a slightly strange question is that you I suppose I would presume so that kind of time stamp yes I would think okay now we can see quite a number of people coming

00:30:16 can see quite a number of people coming past you at that stage could you just give us an impression of how many people are coming out of the tower in the fifth

00:30:27 are coming out of the tower in the fifth floor maybe eight nine ten

00:30:33 six well maybe the same maybe I can't or you know we've been getting ready to leave as I left the floor they're aware and them coming out and can you help us

00:30:46 and them coming out and can you help us can you describe for us the physical condition they were in nobody no one that I saw was reporting smoke inhalation or exhibiting signs of smoke inhalation you didn't see that know

00:30:59 inhalation you didn't see that know about signs of distress anxiety yes mild anxiety usually it's the middle of the night you bang people out the bed the word fires used and instantly there's a level of anxiety obviously so not

00:31:13 level of anxiety obviously so not extraordinarily now and by this stage I want 28 did you know how many pumps have been made up I didn't know that's where I came outside that's my dad if you've made it up to eight or ten okay now

00:31:29 you say at the top of page four of your statement

00:31:34 statement I could see fire licking up the side of the building as I ran out looking up to my left I'm not sure if it had reached the top yet but it was at least half way

00:31:45 could you could you see the fire actually climbing I went to say was

00:31:56 actually climbing I went to say was climbing I didn't look at it long enough to see if it was actually moving level to level but I perceive a significant block the fire for the fourth floor maybe to the eighth floor ninth floor okay what sort of angle of vision did

00:32:08 okay what sort of angle of vision did you have a fire at that stage as you came out to the town yeah it would be on my left right so don't be the east side of the floor did you go back to your pump to my sorry go go back to my tweet

00:32:22 pump to my sorry go go back to my tweet to your pump pump yes sir so okay how far beyond the southeast corner of the tower did that take you beyond parallels

00:32:34 tower did that take you beyond parallels maybe hue meters beyond parallel 510 meters in parallel so I could see it as I ran past saw it and then carried onto the pump got my settle what does do you

00:32:46 the pump got my settle what does do you think when you saw the fire it looked like that beside the nice new shiny facade they put on there was on fire and in court like so

00:32:58 yeah that's that's all I thought it didn't it didn't occur to me that that would be a a a an extremely dangerous method of fire trouble smoke trouble yes I thought it would it could even be a

00:33:10 I thought it would it could even be a fairly thin layer of cladding so he thought it would burn off and it wouldn't cause major damage Mike was a lot of smoke for that beer so even at that stage when you saw the

00:33:21 even at that stage when you saw the exterior on fire are you are you so I've got your evidence clear you saying you didn't actually have a heightened level of concern yes but not not to the level

00:33:32 concern yes but not not to the level that it deserved I was concerned as in the side of a building appears to be on side the facade is on on fire but you but no I

00:33:43 facade is on on fire but you but no I didn't recognize the significance of cladding and I had no idea that that it was humanly possible to put something as flammable and attach it to the outside of a building right and it did you do go on on the fourth line on page four to

00:33:55 on on the fourth line on page four to say I thought it must just be the cladding yeah I didn't think the whole thing was going to burn I just want to understand that that distinction you're making between the cladding and the whole thing yes so what did you because

00:34:08 whole thing yes so what did you because the whole thing has in grenfell tower itself as it still stands today is concrete what's a concrete box it's a series of concrete boxes so the outside to make it look nice they put cladding on the outside which is why I said in my

00:34:19 on the outside which is why I said in my stable to look shiny and new moon and you know that's it's all that good but it didn't it wasn't an intrinsic part of the building and so I thought it's just

00:34:30 the building and so I thought it's just something that's stuck on the front and if it was a light they won't necessarily lead to ignition the entire build this and did you see or could you see whether the fire

00:34:43 see or could you see whether the fire had broken back into the building at any stage hey doc couldn't see the crime scene did you think well did you have any thoughts about

00:34:54 well did you have any thoughts about whether it might be able to break back into the building from the exterior facade not at that point because whilst I could see several floors of fire I didn't realize it was traveling and

00:35:05 didn't realize it was traveling and traveling quickly so I did get a sense of its really screaming at the side of the tower as it was I looked at it momentarily and then moved on okay given

00:35:19 momentarily and then moved on okay given that you knew that mill already been spread off fire on the inside at least fourth to fifth floors is there did you

00:35:32 fourth to fifth floors is there did you have any thoughts about whether or not the fire had broken back into the building from the outside you know again I think because it was vertically above the original compartment my

00:35:43 the original compartment my presupposition would be that the one part of the compartment that will fail will be the window either because open or because it fails or as the Shepherd's call because they put you know ceilings around it and the window itself that

00:35:54 around it and the window itself that compartment fails because of that so the fire was traveling vertically up was in the same plane therefore it was an unexpected and experienced before

00:36:05 experienced before level of fire spread so just exploring that answer a bit more drawing on the Shepherd's court experiences you just have was it your understanding from Shepards court that a fire on the

00:36:18 Shepards court that a fire on the exterior of a building could break back in spit through a window space because of the use of sealant a salmon several high-rise jobs yes right so would that mean that you're

00:36:34 yes right so would that mean that you're in your experience where our fire travels on the outside of a building the use of particular materials might not or block the passage of fire from

00:36:46 or block the passage of fire from the outside to the inside yes I would I would I think that the answer your question is yes I would i D I was not aware I never been made aware and never had any training on the extent materials

00:36:59 had any training on the extent materials clad to the outside of a building retrospectively could have on fire spread and is that right even after Sheppard's court which you've used as your example yes you have no training or

00:37:10 your example yes you have no training or so now in your statement on page four

00:37:21 so now in your statement on page four you save six lines down from the top not hearing any more sorry not hearing anything more I spoke to government out on the watch manager from North

00:37:32 on the watch manager from North Kensington who said he made it a 15 pumper and I said good you say not hearing anything more and not hearing anything more from whom I think on the

00:37:44 anything more from whom I think on the radio right I see and where were you when you spoke to Mike down German it's virtually outside the front entrance just outside it okay and can you you say

00:37:56 just outside it okay and can you you say he had said it may be the 15 pump phone you said good did you discuss anything else no that was it I was running right whom who referred to 15 pumps was it you or him he did I suggested making an 8 or

00:38:08 or him he did I suggested making an 8 or 10 because from what I'd seen it was it was one that he said I've made and 15 that's a good okay

00:38:20 [Music] and

00:38:25 had you been when you have this conversation anything back to your appliance by this stage or were you on your way - no not on my way to device and you know giving you contemporaneous notes you say you went to the pump with

00:38:38 notes you say you went to the pump with Chris secret and fetched VA yes that's right is it okay now we have you coming back into the main entrance in VA at 1:30 26 or say and when I mention these

00:38:50 1:30 26 or say and when I mention these times they're always subject to potentially adjustments but that's the time we've got its camera for tab line of the CCTV bundle it's inq1 to 8 I could just ask him to be shown that

00:39:06 that's okay that's you yes yes carrying hose hose in your left hand and who's behind you I can't say actually I

00:39:20 who's behind you I can't say actually I can't see you right marking so I don't think it's Chris secret I don't know okay all right there's a better image in fact at 1:30 and 30 seconds at inq1 to 9

00:39:34 fact at 1:30 and 30 seconds at inq1 to 9 if I could just ask you three shameless

00:39:39 yes now that can you identify years setting yourself on that picture no I'm not in that picture that is one of

00:39:51 not in that picture that is one of Kensington's crews in the middle firefighter Hanlon five ice cream ownage acceptance from Hammersmith so they would be I think they were after me cuz I ran past might accept and putting his

00:40:02 I ran past might accept and putting his set on right well that's a happy happy coincidence one is Sefton do you think they're at the back of the ball head right and then we're moving forward from the back of the cube coming here's the

00:40:14 the back of the cube coming here's the next one

00:40:14 next one the piledriver o'hanlan yes and then I think that's by a fighter Broderick doggery and then in front not sure actually holding what looks like an

00:40:26 actually holding what looks like an enforcer he's holding a force or a branch I don't know any noise action okay alright and now if you then go to your statement pivot at page four

00:40:39 your statement pivot at page four paragraph one a little bit lower down you say Dave Badillo then said he had keys to a flat I think 176 on the 20th

00:40:50 keys to a flat I think 176 on the 20th floor where a twelve year old girl who was on a rail called her mum to saying that she was in trouble now just just pausing there where were you when Dave the deer told you that I was the

00:41:01 the deer told you that I was the bridgehead I've gone up to bridgeheads racing a test either they'd have had information of where the fire was probably the next compartment up [Music]

00:41:11 [Music] so I was waiting to be briefed I was probably gonna go in with Chris secret and then David ello came upstairs right now we're going to go on with this line of questioning but Mr doggy it may be

00:41:22 of questioning but Mr doggy it may be convenient now for a break for you okay good point from your windows you yes watch we have a short break 10 minutes build-up to this yeah we'll say ten that doesn't work so well all right all right

00:41:34 doesn't work so well all right all right it's good to come back at 5 to 3 and

00:41:43 write 5 to 3 please

00:41:53 you

00:51:20 yes mr. Dalby ready please

00:51:28 you're filling in there

00:51:47 [Music]

00:51:55 yes happy to go on yes just a dog in family now I just asked before the break where you were when you had your discussion with Dave the deer about the 12 year old girl

00:52:06 Dave the deer about the 12 year old girl you said you were at the bridgehead yes was David ear at the bridgehead at the sir at that time as well yes who else was there with you do you remember I was at bridgehead by the stairs so I was on

00:52:19 at bridgehead by the stairs so I was on the second stair Dave was below me you might have watched my turkey just in Auvergne crew major secret obviously and another guy from Paddington called Jim

00:52:30 another guy from Paddington called Jim Wohlford Jim wolf right okay

00:52:39 now you say in your statement that Dave said he had the keys to a flat do you remember receiving any other information from any other source about

00:52:52 information from any other source about a girl on the 20th floor in a flat everything I knew about the girl in the flat all from Dave all from day

00:53:03 flat all from Dave all from day yeah so you don't remember us a fast survival guidance call coming now to the bridgehead no from control at all I didn't know they had them even coming in at that time so no right did you know that Dave

00:53:19 so no right did you know that Dave Verdier had already tried to access the 20th floor on his own no not at that point now if you didn't tell you that yeah

00:53:27 yeah did Dave video say anything to you or to Chris secret or or or Brian O'Keefe and about the conditions that he'd encountered higher up the building on an

00:53:38 encountered higher up the building on an earlier trip no did you know you taken an earlier trip up the bill no right now you say myself Dave the dear Chris

00:53:50 you say myself Dave the dear Chris secret went to go up but but the lift wasn't working so he picked up our equipment and walked to the 20th floor did you tell anybody who is running the

00:54:04 did you tell anybody who is running the bridgehead either watch manager a Keith or the person running entry control but that's what you would do we will have done yes but also there was seen us

00:54:16 done yes but also there was seen us disappear off to the left where the lifts work so that they will have known we didn't go straight up the stairs they've know you've gone upstairs but did they know where you'd gone did then a did they know your destination oh yes

00:54:27 a did they know your destination oh yes yes

00:54:27 yes who told the bridgehead where you were going Dave did Dave basically was at the bridgehead with me and Chris I think he was originally going out with Jim

00:54:38 was originally going out with Jim Wolfensohn because me Chris and Dave were all on the same crew we decided to go together as a three [Music]

00:54:46 [Music] Dave basically said I've got the keys to a flat there's 12 girl girl she's in trouble I didn't know what that meant I didn't know whether I presumed there was a fire in her flat I presumed it was smoke and she's gonna go and get us so

00:55:00 smoke and she's gonna go and get us so he's got keys to the flat we didn't need any breaking in gear so therefore we went we told the bridgehead where we were going which would have been Alex decent oven or Brian our key for Justin but they would

00:55:12 Brian our key for Justin but they would have made a note of it on the board we'd have gone round to this to the lips and they would have seen that we didn't go immediately straight to the stairs so a nobody took a look so two things just to confirm that when you left the bridgehead you did tell either Alex or

00:55:25 bridgehead you did tell either Alex or Brian where you were going absolutely yes okay secondly you said I think in your answer just now that you presumed

00:55:36 your answer just now that you presumed there wasn't fire in that flat that I presume there was it was smoke yes so that stage did you think that the smoke

00:55:47 that stage did you think that the smoke had got that high up in the building I believe they could it was possible especially as I've seen smoke on the outside on the cladding it may be the 8th 9th 10th floor so that was quite smoky so yes quite pretty seem feasible

00:56:00 smoky so yes quite pretty seem feasible seemed quite feasible there's somebody's reporting smoke then although distress then yes did you discuss with anybody off your presumption that there was smoke already on the 20th floor no the

00:56:12 smoke already on the 20th floor no the three of us knew that we didn't really have time to discuss it really just gonna rescue a Suqian you're rescuing that's it did you then go on the air yes

00:56:24 that's it did you then go on the air yes at the bridgehead yes okay and you tell it you've handed in your your tallies at the bridgehead yes okay now just just to give this a appointed a point in time mr. talkie we haven't

00:56:38 point in time mr. talkie we haven't shown you yet the telemetry data schedule can we just have a look at that tab one

00:56:43 tab one [Music]

00:56:50 and we have in the be a timeline to the second chunk in light blue we see the three of you buddy a secret and dog ooh yes all North can tally out and in your

00:57:04 yes all North can tally out and in your case it's a green column you're tallying out at oh one 3501 logging on to the ECB at a 135 19 does that does that tie in

00:57:18 at a 135 19 does that does that tie in with your recollection of roughly how long you've been on the fire ground since your attribute arrived from 35 minutes yes okay yes

00:57:30 and just came back to your statement we'll come back to those with imagery data shortly we came back to your statement you said

00:57:47 in the middle of the page for three lines down from the start of the second paragraph we told Justin we were going up as he was on the board just to be

00:58:00 up as he was on the board just to be clear

00:58:01 clear did you tell Justin and that's just a neighbor there's just no birth that's just to be clear did you did you tell him we're going to the 20th floor yes okay fifty bank number and you say he was on the board did did you see him

00:58:12 was on the board did did you see him write that down anywhere I can't remember him writing it down but I could hundred percent know that he would have written it down on what do you think fine on the board result so as when you

00:58:23 fine on the board result so as when you give him your tally has your name your the amount of air you have the board or then electronically estimate give or take your breathing rate you're working rate when you're at the time a whistle

00:58:35 rate when you're at the time a whistle would be when you're how much air you have and he would write in the remarks column search-and-rescue twentieth floor flat 176 I sleep okay so that's the

00:58:49 flat 176 I sleep okay so that's the entry control board yes what about the forward information board he may well have written it on there as well at a later time but that the the first the bridge had may well have been getting

00:59:01 bridge had may well have been getting busy after that I think Pama Smith's crews are coming behind us Jim Wohlford and was there these people are getting committed so the engine control officers first port of call is to record the information of the BA where's so you

00:59:13 information of the BA where's so you have to know you have to have their tally it has to be updated with China graph if the air levels drops between the time I did my a set back at the station and now has to be noted so you

00:59:25 station and now has to be noted so you know how much air I have and you have to know where I am what I'm doing what I'm carrying it so let's just take a very small diversion just ask you entry control board and forward information board when would you write the

00:59:37 board when would you write the information about where you were going on the forward information board you should spend it when you have time basically so it would be at the first convenient place or if you had another member of crew to do that right so what

00:59:50 member of crew to do that right so what what would you put on to the end the fall in

00:59:52 fall in motion board any information you couldn't really fit on a be able because a be a board remarks column is small it would say literally three-man crew it

01:00:06 would say literally three-man crew it would say the flat number the floor what you were doing searching risky and that's all you have room for really so the forward information board you could write a more a more comprehensive map of

01:00:17 write a more a more comprehensive map of what was going on right

01:00:25 we have you tallying out at the time we looked at oh one 3501 in your case and then can you remember what you took up with you

01:00:32 with you a line of 45 your hose and a branch okay and what about Chris secret what did he

01:00:44 and what about Chris secret what did he have with him do you remember I'm not mistaken a line of 70 ml hose and 45 mil hose why would he take a 70 mil heads building I'm not sure you essentially

01:00:55 building I'm not sure you essentially when you plug into the dry riser you have the wider hose versus allows you greater pressure so it carries more water you could you easily use forward often use four to five more hose but if he had 70s either because that's what

01:01:06 he had 70s either because that's what was available at a time or it's because he you know you just happen to have that on it right the nozzle of a dry riser outlet how big is that what sort of size hose does that fit both because the

01:01:18 hose does that fit both because the coupling is the same so the coupling is a specific diameter the hose attached to it can be 70 mil or 45 mil right is there an adapter at the nose no adapter needed it's just that the hose itself is

01:01:30 needed it's just that the hose itself is is the the piece of the coupling that enters the hose itself will taper down Isis very appropriate level right okay

01:01:41 Isis very appropriate level right okay now halfway down page four

01:01:47 just after the reference to telling Justin you say we had to walk up to the 20th floor all the kid as the lift wasn't working held the lift button pushed it and in floor it wouldn't work

01:01:59 now just pausing there was it you who tried it it may well have been crew manager secret where which floor were

01:02:12 manager secret where which floor were you on were you two when you tried the lift when when it stopped or when we got in when you got but at that point when you say held the live button pushed it any floor it wouldn't work wait where

01:02:24 any floor it wouldn't work wait where were you which is stopped on the eighth floor I think okay let's just take this a bit more slowly when you leave the bridgehead yes how do you get away from the bridgehead up into the building my

01:02:35 the bridgehead up into the building my stairs all my own rat body by the lift so he went around to the left to the lift lobby right see you took the lift from the second floors and where did the lift stopped eighth floor

01:02:46 lift stopped eighth floor eighth floor okay and when you say held the lift button pushed at any floor it wouldn't work we were worried were you still in the most on the egg yes so so we we tried to call it and it wouldn't

01:02:57 we we tried to call it and it wouldn't come sorry we were in the lift the doors opened

01:03:00 opened I need they pressing the button the doors when the shut again the smoke came in so we had to leave right okay so when you say when you just sound today when you say he'll the lift button pushed it any floor it wouldn't work you are on

01:03:13 any floor it wouldn't work you are on the eighth floor doors right yes that is it because if it's a firefighting lift the difference being a firefighting lift and a normal lift that you are I would call would be that you hold the button

01:03:24 call would be that you hold the button in and you have to hold the button so he gets the floor whereas when normally you just press thought 18 you go to AIDS we ought to hold it together at that point so we held it and push different buttons nothing was happening smoke came in anyway into the lift so we left did

01:03:37 anyway into the lift so we left did Chris secret tell you anything about his experiences about trying to get it to work as a firefighter lift at the very start

01:03:43 start none of the incident you know again I don't I don't think I was in the lift at that point so I didn't know right what did you understand about the capabilities of the lifters at firefighters lived that we basically

01:03:56 firefighters lived that we basically would have control over it so we can call it down to the bridgehead to the floor we can travel up and down as we needed tonight to effect rescues and distribution tactic okay and do I think I got your evidence right you didn't

01:04:07 I got your evidence right you didn't have a conversation with Chris's secret about whether that whether the lift was functioning and announced with that can now the little right so eighth floor the doors open open they don't close again

01:04:18 doors open open they don't close again what were the conditions like on the 8th floor in the lobby smoky because we had to leave a lift because it was obviously filling with smoke and how dense was the smoke in breathing up rates is difficult

01:04:32 smoke in breathing up rates is difficult to assess but it was smoky it was visible smoke you wouldn't you wouldn't want to breathe it breathe it him

01:04:48 who

01:04:52 so you then decide to use the stairs and you explain the decision-making you got to that in the last part of the second

01:05:03 to that in the last part of the second paragraph on page four you say it wasn't like we were taking a risk it could have

01:05:15 like we were taking a risk it could have been done that way but it shouldn't have done it wasn't usual to do it this is using the stairs but necessary as there was no real option yes even without air it should technically be okay we've got more help coming the fire should be out

01:05:26 more help coming the fire should be out soon spread should be fine people are evacuating okay smoke spread as high as the 20th floor for whatever reason we presume she's in danger so we haven't gotten the other option first options

01:05:38 gotten the other option first options use the lift second options use the stairs okay we use the stairs now you set out there a line of a line of logic were those your thoughts at the time yes

01:05:51 were those your thoughts at the time yes right okay did you discuss any of those matters at the time with Chris secret or David ear no the way no

01:06:03 and then you say in the beginning of the next paragraph from the third in the second sentence it took maybe 15 minutes to get up there we've got darker as we got higher it was never-ending I'm

01:06:15 got higher it was never-ending I'm pretty sure the lights weren't on but the 20th was bright light yeah just pausing there do you remember whether there was any smoke in the stairs as he went up yes it was where did that start so you start on the 8th

01:06:27 did that start so you start on the 8th floor where did the smoke and the stairs really stuck can't be sure I remember being able to see my radio my handheld radio as soon as we got out of

01:06:38 handheld radio as soon as we got out of the lift because I tried to because I have no barrier had to drop their hose and the branch on one knee and then try and talk into the radio and I remember a the radio I didn't respond

01:06:50 the radio I didn't respond we've gone silent and - I can see the radio so I could see right but then moving further up we got worse and worse and what about temperature not

01:07:03 and what about temperature not noticeable at that point but you're insulated in fire gear and Nomex fire you're insulated from exterior ambient temperature for quite some time it's only when that the heat gradually is absorbed by your fire kick and then

01:07:16 is absorbed by your fire kick and then starts transmitting to your body you'd feel heat okay just jumping ahead if I can to the next page of your statement the very bottom of page 5 the end of the last paragraph but one on that page but you do deal with the question of heat

01:07:28 you do deal with the question of heat you say

01:07:35 your date notice at the first this is the last sentence on at the end of that very little paragraph you don't notice it at first but we all started to notice it by the time we got to the 20th can I

01:07:49 it by the time we got to the 20th can I just ask where at what point did you start to notice ambient heat it's difficult to say because at that point we're kind of task focused so my main

01:08:01 we're kind of task focused so my main point is getting to the 20th floor carrying load of like hose and a branch so we're working extremely hard your fire kit is extremely insulates you very

01:08:13 fire kit is extremely insulates you very well but also insulated he's only heat you're producing through sweat on a on a warm summer's night gradually builds up you're carrying heavy basically scuba diving equipment on your back and it's

01:08:24 diving equipment on your back and it's quite difficult so it happens slowly and you exert yourself to a point probably when you stop you begin to realize that he builds up just going back if we can

01:08:35 he builds up just going back if we can to the bottom of the fourth page your statements second line you say goddaughters we got high

01:08:45 well you say it got darker what what got darker stairwell and was it the light that was fading why was it getting darker difficult to say it could have

01:08:56 darker difficult to say it could have been it could have been that the smoke was obscuring the the ambient lighting you're not in this stairwell it could be that the lighting had failed it could be that it was just so smoky in the area what where I was as a pocket of smoke

01:09:08 what where I was as a pocket of smoke here that I couldn't see and also you get carbonaceous buildup on your face mask so you often if you're in a job you will think you can't see if you wipe your face mask although you're smearing

01:09:19 your face mask although you're smearing stuff around sometimes you can get a clear slither of you I see could as you went up did you could you count your way up by reference to the numbers in the stairwell now I you would think on paper

01:09:34 stairwell now I you would think on paper it will be possible but when you are traveling at speed carrying an equipment and you're just trying to get up the next step stumbling falling it's pitch black

01:09:42 black you're not thinking of what floor you're on you just keep on going up and I'm aware I stopped a couple of times to try and send messages on the way up because I was getting anxious that no one could hear us I know I knew where we were but I was also falling behind the other two

01:09:54 I was also falling behind the other two so I have to keep with them so I'm running as fast as I can to keep up with them so I'm not counting floors just on that last answer in terms of cones at what point do you think you started to

01:10:05 what point do you think you started to have difficulty communicating I don't remember anything any communication at all from leaving the bridgehead so when we got in the lift you probably would

01:10:17 we got in the lift you probably would have selected a floor got out it may be the 18th floor and travel up that would have been the plan you know to two floors below an walk-up so I would have transmitted then but we didn't have the opportunity so when I came out of the

01:10:28 opportunity so when I came out of the lift he would transmit better when it's not in a literature on nothing nothing from the 8th floor tried a couple of times maybe a guessing so the 12th and the 16th but again nothing but when you say nothing he was

01:10:40 nothing but when you say nothing he was getting nothing back or you could nothing sound at all from sometimes static sometimes just the odd word that's the ad you know you're picking up and made a bit of a transmission from someone else but there's certainly no one replying to

01:10:51 but there's certainly no one replying to me on Channel six there's no at the bridgehead so it's not it's not a congested channel that's the command channel so channel six would literally be at that time anyone in ba which would be Tom on the fifth floor

01:11:03 which would be Tom on the fifth floor maybe a crew if they're committed to the sixth or seventh and us so it'd be no more than four four teams in so maybe four or five people using that channel there's that a lot or not really no no not so because you tend not to transmit

01:11:15 not so because you tend not to transmit at the same time so but I can hear anyone and I'm pretty sure no one could hear me were you wearing a barrier where you communicate and throw your fire ground right now unfortunately Barry sets our every other set so if you have

01:11:26 sets our every other set so if you have four four people on the back of fire engine the rule is that you only have two so you it's presumed that in a partnership of two one person would have buried you and who out of the three of

01:11:37 buried you and who out of the three of you had the barrage remember unfortunately this is where the problem lies because you don't always go in with your original part of the Europe establish the change of watch so in this case crew major secrets should have a

01:11:48 case crew major secrets should have a Barry septic lose a crew manager he's very set for whatever reason was off the run so it was have no set and Dave and I so I didn't have a set because I was his partner Dave was either off another machine of the thumb ladder or in the

01:12:00 machine of the thumb ladder or in the middle he didn't have a very say either don't we three of us we have no intrinsically safe concept you say intrinsically safe what compared what in

01:12:11 intrinsically safe what compared what in safety terms is the comparison between a barry set and an ordinary fire radio essentially the handset is very similar it transmits on the same channels but a very set has a pressure

01:12:22 channels but a very set has a pressure switch and an earpiece so that you can nudge the the earpiece or you can touch you with another part of your body whereas with a handheld you have to hold your other hand you can't you need a hand to do it but the other thing is

01:12:33 hand to do it but the other thing is when a bearish set is intrinsically safe which means it does not provide a suitable source of ignition in a in a flammable atmosphere so if you are in a building where say there's a gas leak nearby you can use a very set but you

01:12:46 nearby you can use a very set but you wouldn't want to walk in there with a handheld radio because the spark may ignite the room right just to come back then to the question of the numbering of

01:12:57 then to the question of the numbering of the staircase internally as you as you went up how did you keep tabs on which floor you are at you're on I honestly didn't I just didn't I could hear the footsteps ahead of me a Kris I knew I was within a floor of him so I had to

01:13:10 was within a floor of him so I had to just keep going race the out stop when they stopped did you notice on your way out whether you could if you know Carlin I find the numbers on the floors I don't think I looked it to be all I need in all

01:13:22 looked it to be all I need in all honesty we were going to the 20th so we're going to search least the top of the building so you just keep going I wouldn't it wouldn't be relevant where thousand twelve or the 13th

01:13:49 now you say on page five of the at the

01:14:00 now you say on page five of the at the top

01:14:06 well perhaps I it's not very clear from the statement but let's see let's pick it up the bottom of page before we can you say Chris was in the doorway holding

01:14:17 you say Chris was in the doorway holding it open for me and he was knackered this is three lines up from the bottom so I started absent a bit too late on now in the doorway it was that on the 20th floor yes

01:14:28 floor yes doorway from what the stairwell into the lobby yes and you say you then say they went in and searched anyway and I stayed

01:14:39 went in and searched anyway and I stayed out on the radio I was trying to trying and trying to get over radio Chris went into the lobby and it was taken to clear of smoke did you see that yourself

01:14:52 [Music] no because Chris held the door open for me on the 20th which is the only reason I stopped either carried on going so can't see anything okay

01:15:04 can't see anything okay so relative to the stairwell when I was at the top of the stairs to be honest I think I was literally on my knees with a hose beside me because Chrissy quit so I stopped smoke will tend to travel down

01:15:16 stopped smoke will tend to travel down was from the top or the roof down so from maybe of their shoulder height down if you stood up in it it would be pitch black if you crouch down you can actually it's relatively clear so I could see bright light relatively

01:15:27 could see bright light relatively speaking and Chris's feet and see him stood over out of breath mostly so I could see that when I got to the 20th and then he went over to the right and searched search the flat okay so you say

01:15:41 searched search the flat okay so you say are you saying that the in the lobby there was smoke but it was yes lusted on the ceiling and a bandaged yeah yes further further down but yes the big comfy thing at least halfway down but in that's tuned change that changed quite

01:15:52 that's tuned change that changed quite quickly because Chris was holding the door open so the smoke essentially what we do is we need this the fire fine shaft is the case we become at a chimney so it's taking smoke from downstairs

01:16:03 so it's taking smoke from downstairs heating it and bring it straight up towards us so as he openeth the the lobby door basically the lobby would have filled the smoke would you do it okay did he hold that all right with a lot

01:16:13 lot not for long just to basically make sure I was okay and to get the end right he may well have spoke to me I don't remember okay so so you go into the 20th

01:16:25 remember okay so so you go into the 20th floor lift lobby and that's the top of page five and you say eventually as they were searching I went in looking around

01:16:37 were searching I went in looking around the hallway but she wasn't in there so is that inside the flat that you were said to yes seven six yes right so you all three went into that flat we they

01:16:49 all three went into that flat we they went in first my first thought was we need to have hose obviously we brought house with us swing but the the lobby became pitch black like pitch black so

01:17:00 became pitch black like pitch black so before any of you went into the flat can you describe the door of flat 176 was it open or closed I wouldn't see now I don't know do you remember where the Dave video had to use the keys or no I

01:17:12 Dave video had to use the keys or no I don't think he did I don't think you don't think it was left open you think that notional yeah I don't like can't swear on it okay and did dumb when you went into the flat what was the condition in the flat what were the egg

01:17:24 condition in the flat what were the egg air conditions in the flat light similar to the lobby I could just about make out the the shapes of christen and Dave in there in separate rooms

01:17:37 Dave in there in separate rooms basically searching very hard for I was in the hallway went down to my knees to see if I could see anything to see how low the smoke level was didn't the hall looked clear I could see enough to see

01:17:49 looked clear I could see enough to see there was nothing in the hallway itself but it was a small flat so you don't need three people in there searching because we're just getting each other's way right so I stayed outside I'd originally thought I could sit into the dry riser but that was just pointless

01:18:01 dry riser but that was just pointless idea so I stayed on comms and how far into the flat did you get literally into the hallway it's the door into the main door because I stayed outside as they went in I was still catching my breath

01:18:13 went in I was still catching my breath and brought the hose inside so what you don't want this for hose to unravel and become a trip hazard for us or anyone trying to leave the building so I had to make sure it was packed tightly against

01:18:25 make sure it was packed tightly against the wall so we could find it again so I did that took Chrissy's hose my host branch and then went into the flat and

01:18:36 branch and then went into the flat and basically stayed in the doorway still trying the radio and what about heat what was the heat like in the hallway remember yeah hot game got hotter he

01:18:47 remember yeah hot game got hotter he seemed hotter in the flat than it was in the lobby it was warm in the lobby but then more so in the flat it was different temperature but I didn't but I just thought that was because I didn't

01:18:59 just thought that was because I didn't think fire was close by but he just felt like I was hot I was just just I just been heated up through running up 13 flights of stairs with VI so on

01:19:14 and

01:19:17 what about the the light in the flat he was was it dark or was it light in the flat whose dark did you try to switch on the lights no you wouldn't do that now

01:19:28 the lights no you wouldn't do that now he's only on page 5 you say a third of the way down there was no point knocking

01:19:39 the way down there was no point knocking on doors of her neighbor's house as it never happens that fires that file quick it just wouldn't happen for there to be far all the way up and all the floors in between it just wouldn't happen it's like knocking on all your

01:19:50 it's like knocking on all your neighbor's doors in the middle of the night just to get him out of bed just why would you there's no danger he knew her flat was smoky but nobody else had come out of there flat complaining we didn't know the whole building was on

01:20:01 didn't know the whole building was on fire

01:20:09 you had you told us you've been outside the building at about 1:30 yes seen the East face yes substantially a yes can you just explain why if you can white

01:20:21 you just explain why if you can white why you thought there was no no danger because I think disbelief if I'm honest I don't I just did not believe that a

01:20:33 I don't I just did not believe that a substance we put on the side of a building all the way up with no fire breaks that was completely flammable that would race up higher than I could run it will break into every flat on the

01:20:44 run it will break into every flat on the way set that flat on fire and carry on doing that all the way like I think that flat on the 20th floor flushed over minutes after we were in it so the temperature was rising all the time

01:20:56 temperature was rising all the time I just frankly didn't believe it I knew the cladding was on fire but the cladding in the building wrong as two separate entities are building his concrete and the cladding would just fall away and was burning and I could see bits of cladding falling away when I

01:21:07 see bits of cladding falling away when I was downstairs so it was just burning and falling away like paper it wasn't I didn't believe it was substantial enough and when I seen it it was ten floors below where we now were so just couldn't

01:21:19 below where we now were so just couldn't understand I never seen it before didn't understand what was out in the units just there's a stressful time sorry II you there for specific tasks we're trying to rescue one girl yeah that's

01:21:33 trying to rescue one girl yeah that's what we're doing is sort of thinking of it's not you know you're not thinking you're not registering you're aware of danger and you're dynamically risk assessing everything but you're not always aware of of your surroundings and

01:21:45 always aware of of your surroundings and the way you might normally be did you you have

01:21:50 you have thoughts about where the smoke but you've seen in the lobby and then in flat 176 have come from I presume to become behind us from below us on the on the stairwell so I knew

01:22:02 us on the on the stairwell so I knew that the 4th floor that the fifth floor maybe I could believe the 6th floor we're on fire and they were it would be a significant fire for it to have licked up into two floors so by that time teams I knew had

01:22:14 floors so by that time teams I knew had gone in on the fourth or fifth floor so I knew immediately if they're fighting fires the stairwell is going to be compromised by people exiting the building why firefighters wedging it open so that heat and that smoke is

01:22:27 open so that heat and that smoke is going to come directly upwards so is Chris held a lot the lobby door open and Dave how the lobby door I've not presumed that's how it filled and also because the storage and we need to drop to the tool I think you said earlier

01:22:40 to the tool I think you said earlier that your recollection is that the door of 176 have been left open do you know whether it's open in the sense that it was shot but not locked or standing open

01:22:52 was shot but not locked or standing open I honestly don't know sorry do you remember anything about the other doors at that level other doors on on that floor yeah they no one came out know what there was no there's no indication

01:23:03 what there was no there's no indication at all from anyone that anyone else is in distress there was no smoke alarm going off obvious there's no fire alarm because they took it out but there's no were shouting norm by on doors and we were making a fair amount of noise

01:23:14 were making a fair amount of noise growing around the hose and bumping into things and banging on doors to find your way so to navigate through the darkness it's not quiet exercise no one stood so our presupposition is that they are

01:23:26 our presupposition is that they are safer in their flat if there was smoke that we knew that the the atmosphere in which was thoroughly hereis pyrovile there's no way anyone's gonna survive longing well unless your own breathing operators so there's no way I'm gonna

01:23:38 operators so there's no way I'm gonna knock on some store and ask them to come out into that the I think it follows from what you just said that banging around in the lobby the doors that you must have come across it for shocked they were shut

01:23:59 you've said a moment ago in answer to one of the Chairman's questions that they're safer in their flats because the atmosphere was thoroughly arrestor Abul

01:24:11 atmosphere was thoroughly arrestor Abul no way anyone is going to survive longer necessary and breathing apparatus so can I just understand it but at that time you've when you come out of flat 176 if

01:24:22 you've when you come out of flat 176 if you had not are you saying this if you knocked on the door of safe flat 175 for example and brought somebody out that the atmosphere would have been unsafe for them to breathe without shadow it

01:24:34 for them to breathe without shadow it out and how long can you give us an impression of how unsafe that would it be I know from firefighters who were in there later who tried to rescue people people they brought out were unconscious

01:24:45 people they brought out were unconscious within one flight of stairs two flight of stairs so we were like we were after a twelve-year-old girl we were going to get we're gonna bring it down we just we'd run it down the stairs we'd

01:24:56 we just we'd run it down the stairs we'd have found that in far away how would you have got to down the stairs how do you I don't know doesn't matter really done it

01:25:07 are you alright you need to break too [Music]

01:25:11 [Music] okay

01:25:13 okay you can help we could take we could take a break plenty of time I'm just a minute man that's right please it take you would like it yes I think it other things I think that actually mr. Chavez would take five minutes just to get mr. Filner my experiences of five minutes in

01:25:25 Filner my experiences of five minutes in the sense never enough because it's always tense I'm gonna say

01:25:49 you

01:36:21 [Music]

01:36:27 all right good

01:36:35 mr. doggy thank you for coming back to us now after your visit to the 20th floor can you describe what happened at the moment you all decided to leave

01:36:49 daven Chris came out to the flat kind of met me in the doorway I remember Chris's toddler whistle his

01:37:01 I remember Chris's toddler whistle his whistle was going off which means he's on emergency air which kind of jolted me a bit so realized were way way way miles away for the bridge head which you'll never be on the 20th floor it's it

01:37:13 never be on the 20th floor it's it shouldn't be done because you just haven't got enough air and obviously I realized crystals on the murders here we've still got to get down our breathing rate was he's high and we're all quite hot so we decided to leave

01:37:24 all quite hot so we decided to leave immediately

01:37:26 the we need I had no comms that was made to be pretty anxious because I needed to tell people what was happening need the bridge had to know this heavily smoke logged tell them what's happening but I

01:37:39 logged tell them what's happening but I just couldn't get hold of them so we decided to leave I picked up my hose I remember walking out from the lobby into the stairwell and looking down into the stairwell it was totally pitch black

01:37:51 stairwell it was totally pitch black which it shouldn't be it should be clear it should be a protected stairwell right and during the time that you'd spent on the 20th floor do you think the door

01:38:02 the 20th floor do you think the door from the lobby to the stair would have remained closed yes decided to open it early and yet you found the stove full of smoke so yeah it was pitch black I think he said it so it basically built

01:38:13 think he said it so it basically built up against the door cuz the lobby as we open the door the lobby filled with smoke when we closed the door the stairwell through the smoke so did the smoke in the stairwell come from the 20th floor lobby or do you think it was

01:38:24 20th floor lobby or do you think it was coming from elsewhere coming from downstairs I think really yeah so smokeless whatever was burning downstairs which at the time I believed to be a maximum of say three flats was coming

01:38:34 coming the ups from downstairs but it was B you didn't we have time to process the information it were nothing was making sense behold nothing the whole night made sense nothing happened the way it should happen the staircase was was

01:38:47 should happen the staircase was was completely smoke logged and complete was impossible by normal people without breathing operators and it should be a protected stairwell the heat was excessive it shouldn't have

01:38:58 the heat was excessive it shouldn't have been that hot and I couldn't understand why it was so hot he's in the stairwell heat the stairwell heat in the lobby he's in the flat shouldn't have been he came up through you it was it was like being heated from the inside out it's

01:39:09 being heated from the inside out it's quite unpleasant it's not it wasn't normal

01:39:12 normal even though we'd run a long way in breathing apparatus it still was extremely hot and makes you a little bit a little bit stressed and how the conditions in the stairwell changed when

01:39:25 conditions in the stairwell changed when he went out into it from when you had first left it to go into the 20th floor lobby

01:39:30 lobby they'd worsen yet on the way down vividly did you have any thoughts about where the smoke and heat in the stairwell had come from like I said it come from the lower level of the stairwell so it's if smoke has spread if

01:39:43 stairwell so it's if smoke has spread if other floors are affected by smoke then sue the lobby doors open the stairwell which should be protected by ventilation is compromised if that ventilation is not working it clearly it wasn't then

01:39:54 not working it clearly it wasn't then there's just more and more smoke and a pour out into the stairwell we were at the top of the stairwell and all we couldn't see anything rim you have pockets of pockets are there on the way down maybe pockets at times you could

01:40:05 down maybe pockets at times you could see things you could make things out but for the most time it was fairly pitch-black when you say at the top of page six Chris had no air yes I thought

01:40:16 page six Chris had no air yes I thought I'm going to die Chris said I got to go I got no air what made you think that you were going to die

01:40:27 I thought it was it was likely because we just had we were fairly exhausted extremely hot conditions have worsened beyond anything I'd known on that level

01:40:38 beyond anything I'd known on that level like a bit hotter jobs before our secure if you're in a fire than it's hotter but this was we were supposedly 16 floors 15 floors away from the fire the last fire I had confirmed I'd only 20 minutes

01:40:52 I had confirmed I'd only 20 minutes later so somehow it was incredibly hot up there I couldn't work out why and Chris had nowhere else a know where he was no emergency air were breathing very

01:41:04 was no emergency air were breathing very very heavily so we're carrying heavy equipment for carrying RBA were exhausted already we're already hot so you're breathing more heavily the Christa's on emergency and I didn't think he'd have enough air to get downstairs and what was your

01:41:15 to get downstairs and what was your reservoir on there how many bar did you have left is no idea there was almost no point checking it I don't think I was on whistle at the time I don't even know if it was the whole time but I would have been clothes on but either way if Chris

01:41:27 been clothes on but either way if Chris ran out of air we'd have to try and do an exchange of air which is complicated to do when you're stressed almost Hartley's pitch black or we'd have to you know drag him out of there so that

01:41:38 you know drag him out of there so that would be very difficult and what about David do what a porpoise is a no ization no idea

01:41:45 no idea was he under I mean would you do it low through a wall because you're you will start up give or take 13 Horton bar the same kind of amount of air and a similar amount of work so he's gonna be low on air as well I know he is fairly

01:41:56 air as well I know he is fairly exhausted

01:41:57 exhausted [Music]

01:42:01 you then say three lines and four lines down from the top of page six as we went down it was getting hotter and hotter

01:42:14 was that unusual moving if you're in a chimney no so if you're if you are say for example going down into a basement so the fire is in the basement and you

01:42:25 so the fire is in the basement and you make entry by the top of a stairwell then the closer you get to the fire the hotter it will be and essentially that's what we were doing we're going closer and closer to establish fires in the lower levels and what about smoke on the

01:42:37 lower levels and what about smoke on the way down did it get thicker or did he get better thick but in places not so much because I can see obviously in Chris's face because I was I was concerned because because it was so

01:42:50 concerned because because it was so thick I realized that maybe around the 18th floor of 1760 that the lobby areas were wood heavily smoked logs so I was checking the doors pushing the doors

01:43:02 checking the doors pushing the doors over shouting inside if anyone was there because if they were there's no way they'd be able to walk out onto the stairwell and they'd probably collapse in the lobby so even if you know a lobby you've known that lobby for 20 years

01:43:13 you've known that lobby for 20 years you've lived there as soon as it's pitch black and I mean completely pitch black it's irresponsible

01:43:19 it's it's pretty horrific as soon as you are not touching a wall or a door you don't know where you are so then you're lost and you won't find your way out the stairway that's where a lot of people that lost them were found in lobbies the

01:43:32 that lost them were found in lobbies the stairwells and even if you do make it the stairwell stairwell which should be protected it's now entirely choked with smoke serious peril so I was concerned that people would basically die a few

01:43:43 that people would basically die a few feet a few meters from the front door so I checked on the levels down to maybe the 15th that's when Chris grabbed my arm and I managed to see his face he said May I've got no air I've got to go right and when you checked into the

01:43:55 right and when you checked into the lobbies on the way down to the 15th or so what did you see they were smoky if you could see it will be lowdown so I had to crouch down you can see in it in there

01:44:06 can see in it in there the smoke layer I shouted but obviously when breathing operates your mouth that your voice is muffled so when we as a family company we lost each other on the stairs later you can't really hear more

01:44:17 stairs later you can't really hear more than a floor above because your voice is so muffled so we're screaming but no one I couldn't hear anyone it was very quiet really quiet so I could no one moving no one speaking no one no smoke alarms

01:44:28 one speaking no one no smoke alarms going off so II the presupposition would be that the compart was themselves are safe it's that it's the smoke coming from the stairwell and it's flooded the lobbies but you're better off in your flat and was it but it'd have been

01:44:41 flat and was it but it'd have been possible to go into any of those lobbies and alert any of the other residents he tried to get them out well if we'd had the air maybe but then your alerting them to there's a smoke outside your

01:44:53 them to there's a smoke outside your safe compartment so you wouldn't there's a so do you admittedly we were stressed at this point and I'm very anxious but you're not going to call people out into a hero spiral atmosphere I'm not gonna

01:45:05 a hero spiral atmosphere I'm not gonna knock you up at two o'clock in the morning and say come out into the smoke it's not you wouldn't you do this people safer in their own flat if so we believe at that time and then I think you say

01:45:16 at that time and then I think you say that five lines down from the top of page six my whistle was going now as well and I couldn't find a nothing yeah

01:45:28 do you know what floor you were on when you realized you and then on the with him no it was I was I remember Dave we

01:45:39 him no it was I was I remember Dave we went down together I think I was in front I was carrying hose remember round about the 18th floor Dave said why we why we carrying her it's not going to put a fire out we're just exhausted so and we took the hose off me threw on the floor I remember I

01:45:51 off me threw on the floor I remember I couldn't see the hose so I it into the corner of the stairwell so they wouldn't ship anybody up coming out because once unravel poses an absolutely nightmare I don't the Dave being with me then then I

01:46:04 don't the Dave being with me then then I was checking stairwell so I kind of fell behind a little bit so that was maybe 16:17 15-floor I kind of lost Dave and that's when I was running up a floor he

01:46:16 that's when I was running up a floor he must have passed me at some point they're dark it's that dark he passed me and I didn't see him right and where was Chris secret at this time probably in between us I think he was more with Dave than with me right and that was when he grabbed my arm so I've got no air and how's it

01:46:28 arm so I've got no air and how's it going good ago and did dumb did you get back upstairs to see if you could see Dave yeah I went up maybe that's what he's my backs up to go to flights three flights screaming but you couldn't I

01:46:40 flights screaming but you couldn't I couldn't hear him and he couldn't hear me queer - muffled no and you'd obviously did find him you know which level you were on when you found it on the seventh because I rejoined Chris and

01:46:52 the seventh because I rejoined Chris and we're fairly exhausted so we were there's not a lot to say really we had to get out Chris is low on air and I'm low on air we're gonna be hot and very stressed probably suffering from

01:47:03 stressed probably suffering from metabolic heat stress at that point and just just keep walking out but that the next time I saw dave was running to speaking to des Murphy on the seventh

01:47:15 speaking to des Murphy on the seventh floor

01:47:16 floor I remember Chris came to a halt exercising walking directly behind him and he just stopped and dave was there next two days and I remember seeing des his eyes I recognized him through his facemask and he he was shining a light

01:47:27 facemask and he he was shining a light on the wall to show des what floor we were on the sidewalk and it did you go on to say that in the last few lines of this paragraph in your statement where you describe as you just had finding

01:47:38 you describe as you just had finding David ear showing there's Murphy the sign for the seventh floor can I just ask you and we'll do it by reference to a statement you say Dave was showing Desmond through the sign saying it was

01:47:49 Desmond through the sign saying it was the seventh floor do you remember was that the floor numbering that appears on the wall of the stairwell yes that's what he was showing him yes and

01:48:02 what he was showing him yes and do you know why des Murphy had to be shown it

01:48:05 shown it I believe I I didn't see a single number on the way up all on the way down any point but it was apparently not written on some it was written on the felt tip

01:48:16 on some it was written on the felt tip pen as opposed to a pencil number run they made for the task so it's just edged on by other a resident or a builder or whatever you say apparently

01:48:28 builder or whatever you say apparently not written on and is that something you heard later yes because I'm asking Dave later what we doing and why couldn't you see the sign he said because he was written on in hand by hand and he had to show des with his torch exactly where it

01:48:40 show des with his torch exactly where it was I see okay but you didn't yourself observe any numbering this numbering no numbering no I can't remember at all no no there was nothing obvious nothing the

01:48:52 no there was nothing obvious nothing the Loomis luminescent that would stick out and darkness did you assist anybody any resident come down the stairs but on your on your way down no we did see

01:49:05 your on your way down no we did see anybody we didn't see anybody from the 20th floor to the 7th was just as three no sound no more shouting no one on the stairs can I just ask you then just to

01:49:16 stairs can I just ask you then just to look at your contemporaries note

01:49:21 and you say at the bottom of page two

01:49:36 just three quarters of the way down the page that's it morally see we decided again correct me if I'm wrong in reading your your writing mr. dog you say we decided to go to the ECP as it was hot

01:49:48 decided to go to the ECP as it was hot and we were extremely fatigued and then you say next to a little asterisk I helped evacuate resident I think from smoke logged sixth floor down gutters

01:50:00 smoke logged sixth floor down gutters with 500 burn yes it's in brackets yes could you just tell us a bit about that

01:50:09 that may well be I can't remember that resident actually remembered taking several people down the stairs so it's to do with when I was the asterisk is further up in the page so they were

01:50:21 further up in the page so they were formed by residents that there was smoke on higher floors ooh and then I said I helped back to a grocers from the smoke over sixth floor so that's fine I think that's Justin that's when you asked me earlier who I was with I think I was adjusted I see I suits me so this wasn't

01:50:32 adjusted I see I suits me so this wasn't on the trip down no no no not only no firefighter per do no before my BA where this is sorry that's what the asterisk is I thought of it later so my um my

01:50:43 is I thought of it later so my um my thoughts a bit disjointed yeah that's very clear so you get down to the bridgehead and how far before you reach the second floor did that dense thick

01:50:55 the second floor did that dense thick smoke reach

01:50:58 I can't remember I can't remember was it only floors above the bridge hurdle was it - maybe the fourth I'll say roundabout the fourth or third I remember coming into light but to be

01:51:10 remember coming into light but to be honest we were real pretty exhausted I could couldn't really stand up and eyes just okay there's nothing I could say we up in speed and we have the showing you

01:51:25 up in speed and we have the showing you if we can just have that up on the screen please we can have you tally in

01:51:35 at Oh 59 29 we've seen that yes we have the same we have Italian time for Dave video is a 158 15 you don't have Chris

01:51:48 video is a 158 15 you don't have Chris secrets does that time roughly correspond with your recollection yes very much to looking on yes I remember looking outside at my watch and it was

01:52:01 looking outside at my watch and it was five past - right and the entire building was on fire so by that time just before 2 a.m. over 14 with what would you say would

01:52:17 over 14 with what would you say would you say it was possible to evacuate anybody down the protected staircase know that breathing apparatus it would be I think it would be virtually impossible very early on in the fire

01:52:28 impossible very early on in the fire because I was just it was it was smoke log very I think by dr. barber Lane said approximately 126 but even before that's where it was at that point she thinks it was no longer useable as an escape room

01:52:40 was no longer useable as an escape room which means the smoke had been building up before that so very mind we've got water on the fire approximately there's 10 15 minutes before that and we extinguishing the fire it would be near

01:52:52 extinguishing the fire it would be near impossible you're impossibly because you would be walking down into denser and denser smoke but okay but in terms of your experience you've you've been in the tower the up and stairs in breathing

01:53:04 tower the up and stairs in breathing operator from 130 135 to 159 just before two o'clock so 25 minutes during any of that period of time when you've been up

01:53:16 that period of time when you've been up and then down again would you say that it was possible to evacuate anybody from any floor down that protected staircase successfully and safely I don't think so not from that time

01:53:27 not from that time even from the 8th floor was with smoke log so it would have been very difficult it's it may have been feasible but they would have been unconscious they will need to be rescued by be a cruise which is the reason I went out to get my set

01:53:39 is the reason I went out to get my set because I realized it's a smoke spreading I'm gonna have to be in the ice that I can help other people if not I'll succumb to the effects and so on my colleagues I've smoked as would a resident do you know how to them now

01:53:55 when you tallied in to the bridgehead as we've seen switched on did you have a debrief with anybody at the bridgehead

01:54:07 debrief with anybody at the bridgehead we most certainly will have done that I cannot remember I was fairly I think we all would were suffering the effects of heat stress and were pretty exhausted so

01:54:18 heat stress and were pretty exhausted so we would have we would have said there's no way we would have come down and just wandered off but I can remember the carny was saying anything okay in your statement to page six three lines down

01:54:30 statement to page six three lines down from the start of the second main paragraph on that page you say we couldn't find the girl so told control and came out yes we told them what we did and what it was like do you remember

01:54:43 did and what it was like do you remember if you told but first of all who did you tell that to control outfits of shop alpha control is the end control board not control control rights was that Alex Alex or Justin what a major illegal

01:54:55 Alex or Justin what a major illegal charge or Justin what about Brian okey did you have a conversation with him possibly but we're more likely to speak to the guy who's giving you your telly

01:55:07 to the guy who's giving you your telly back so that we ng control officers are growing our keepers overall command but the guy you'd actually speak to have even more likely be the ACO fire fighter and he would make a note of it on the board okay and do you remember what any

01:55:22 board okay and do you remember what any of those firefighters did with that information Alex just involving Justin about Brian King what did they do with you they would have made him no time ago on the board or maybe the forward

01:55:33 on the board or maybe the forward inflation board but honestly I was in a state so I can't remember you don't remember seeing them do that no I'm sure they were I'm 100% sure they would have done his crucial information and obviously by the time we came down

01:55:45 and obviously by the time we came down the incident is escalated beyond anything you've ever encountered so they would have been making notes on that do you remember any discussion or conversation at the bridgehead at that

01:55:56 conversation at the bridgehead at that time about any fire survival guidance calls in relation to a flap on the 23rd floor instead of the 20th floor no no we

01:56:09 floor instead of the 20th floor no no we had no we have no information at all when we set off I know the girl we tried to rescue is found up into the 23rd floor we have no information whatsoever which is why I was so anxious to get

01:56:20 which is why I was so anxious to get communications especially um on the 20th floor as to where she was if they found I think if they knew anything so now we have no information whatsoever yeah any then you then went from the bridge head

01:56:32 then you then went from the bridge head out of the tower yes okay and the did you assist in bringing out casualties later that evening I was we recovered for a short time on there on the grass that before the ledger says are looking

01:56:43 that before the ledger says are looking at a building and I realized that I could see the front of it I realized there's just not there's hardly anyone coming out there's no one like no one's really coming out there's no hordes of people the must be hundreds of people in

01:56:54 people the must be hundreds of people in there so ran back without my breathing apparatus up to the breach had had to run across the concourse and parts of the building are falling off at that point

01:57:03 point and as calculations have brought down to the bridgehead someone a shower casualty and I'd rule quite a few bodies out at help of other people carried them out across the concourse out to the London

01:57:15 across the concourse out to the London Ambulance

01:57:16 Ambulance with a conscious or unconscious they were unconscious I don't think anyone was alive to be honest for us it's not my call to say but they were like this can I just ask you to look at

01:57:27 like this can I just ask you to look at your contemporaneous notes from the last page

01:57:42 you say that a third of the way down I helped take four casualties down the stairs from the bridgehead this is as I say a third of the way yes all were

01:57:53 say a third of the way yes all were unconscious washed mother Dowden was one member of one of the crews who assisted me account one casualty on my shoulder from the front door to the la s

01:58:04 shoulder from the front door to the la s crews do you remember do you remember any of those many of those casualties in particular so if you're honest they were suffering the effects of smoke inhalation so their faces were were covered in saliva and they'd be

01:58:17 covered in saliva and they'd be blackened so you not really yeah I think one was a big guy quite large the other one that I carried on my shoulder we couldn't there's two of us and we couldn't get a grip on her so I kind of call groms my shoulder and did it by

01:58:29 call groms my shoulder and did it by myself

01:58:29 myself and ran out of then the only reason I think she's a war minister she was lighter but obviously I couldn't sell some of them were burned somewhere blackened I couldn't possibly tell you

01:58:40 blackened I couldn't possibly tell you say all were unconscious yes is that right so is that right they were all unconscious yes but alive I don't know I they were like this to look out but it's not my call to say

01:58:51 look out but it's not my call to say whether alive or not no I talking to London Ambulance Service and they dealt with them there

01:59:01 you then say that you went back into the tower after about 20 minutes yes did anybody tell you to do that or did you do that of your own accord now I just did that because I could see no

01:59:12 just did that because I could see no one's coming out okay and you say that the air is trying to find the reference to

01:59:26 you say

01:59:30 the hoc word on page 7 the fumes were disgusting what where was that when you experience the that was at the front the

01:59:42 experience the that was at the front the built so Southside the front the building by the main exit there's a lot of debris coming off the top of the of the tower the side of the tower a lot of molten aluminium which I think was

01:59:53 molten aluminium which I think was melting through our five year you can feel nipping on your skin so it was it was quite it was quite quite um quite

02:00:04 was quite it was quite quite um quite bad and that this fumes the smell was accurate acrid smoke because after I've taken three four people out and carried

02:00:15 taken three four people out and carried them across the causeway under that debris I kind of collapsed because I couldn't breathe anymore it was just it was two years too accurate if you give actually or contemporaneous notes you

02:00:26 actually or contemporaneous notes you say on the third page halfway down I also helped walk several I think it's a young young young girls house or a

02:00:37 young young young girls house or a building yes one with crew manager bachelor door yes the girl where the girls was from 1995 do you remember anything more about them

02:00:50 anything more about them I helped walk her out true range of bachelor door at the front door but I ran into another girl we look very similar to her similar build similar

02:01:01 similar to her similar build similar height long black hair but younger I think maybe the one girl was 12 years old was maybe nine and the woman was screaming because she'd lost her husband and a daughter

02:01:13 okay and what did you did you do anything with that infamous yeah I said I think I've seen your sister and she's asked me what I took ask her what flat she was in and she

02:01:25 ask her what flat she was in and she said 95 so I ran over swear it seen with pre-merger vegetable on the side so what flattered you from the ghost of 95 and she'd lost her dad I think they've been coming down the stairs and she'd lost his hand so but we later found her dad

02:01:37 his hand so but we later found her dad alive and well and I was able to run back to the mum and her daughter and say that directly family's alive and well okay

02:01:53 you I think also talked about somebody about trying to calm somebody down outside the tower well mmm Chris was on the phone to his wife yeah

02:02:04 Chris was on the phone to his wife yeah manager bachelor boy again that's factual door is it not yes yes sorry yet Christie went about with or he he was on a fire Survival Guide score but well it wasn't their first year was he was on

02:02:16 wasn't their first year was he was on the phone I think using the man's mobile phone and call this others wife or his sister I couldn't make out right and the man was was extremely distressed pre-match of actually girl stayed on the phone with him till she succumbed to the

02:02:28 phone with him till she succumbed to the smoke do you remember anything about the man you were small okay not a big guy but no but just very distressed black

02:02:40 but no but just very distressed black hair maybe my complexion well I can't I couldn't describe it really any more than that okay did did he give you a flat number did you know what flat number now I can't remember now okay I think you also mentioned that in

02:02:53 okay I think you also mentioned that in general terms do I think you've helped out with FSG calls yes and you you I think you say this is the bottom of page

02:03:06 think you say this is the bottom of page seven and the third line loads of FSG calls were coming in with a guy from Houston doing it yeah do you know who that was I don't actually well we have used in arriving eighth of a 231 at

02:03:18 used in arriving eighth of a 231 at about 1:45 does that help in tell us is he it was a while after I come out from there for the building in a while after I carried bodies out 145 maybe about

02:03:29 I carried bodies out 145 maybe about right okay and it's just basically I was I was a runner so I was running between they had lots of FSG so they had calls going in family of four or family to the flat number the floor number state and base

02:03:42 number the floor number state and base house taking those sheets of paper and running around two or three at a time right okay you say it guide from Houston are you confident that it was Euston no come on

02:03:53 confident that it was Euston no come on it's our cart number who is now okay because we have a lot of people maybe Lambert no I don't think I know anyone from number so maybe not no all right for the foot of page seven of your

02:04:05 for the foot of page seven of your statement just one or two questions about this you say something that uses five lines up from the bottom some information was written on sheets which I took to the command unit in Grenfell road for them to action

02:04:17 road for them to action I was shoving the FSG information through the door but they were overwhelmed there must have been as there was so much coming in do you remember whether what do you remember

02:04:28 remember whether what do you remember which number this command unit was that you were pushing their first year information you know but it's the one part some gram file road so it's the only approach road directly to the base that's how it was that one was it the

02:04:39 that's how it was that one was it the one nearer nearer that was there were two there I think by two o'clock was it the nearer one to the tower or the furthermore thinking I think it was the nearer one towards the middle of grenfell Road I think I think your mom's

02:04:51 grenfell Road I think I think your mom's at topper grounds all right no you say you were taking information written on sheets to the commands unit where were you getting the sheets from from the guy who I think was it Euston and they were

02:05:03 who I think was it Euston and they were writing down wherever they got the information from so they were saying who was there what what state they're in what state the flat was in and where was he getting the information from I don't

02:05:14 he getting the information from I don't actually know I think he was he either had a fire ground radio from an officer director control otherwise are done right and what was that information that you were taking back to the command unit

02:05:26 you were taking back to the command unit it's basically the information giving you their location so the most important thing with an FCS with finding the finding the fire's I said earlier is that the location sees know what flap

02:05:37 that the location sees know what flap they're in what floor they're in so that if you're going to you can't have a mass evacuation cuz it's too dangerous mass evacuation is inherently dangerous because the stairs will get closed the lobbies

02:05:47 lobbies with with people who can't breathe and then we can't get into a fight the fire and be to rescue people so if someone has a location and you know where they are on that flat you hold them on the

02:05:58 are on that flat you hold them on the line so so control will stay on the line of them so you know the conditions around them you can reassure them tell them to shut windows block under doors etc you know the state they're in you know how many of them there are you know

02:06:09 know how many of them there are you know if they're disabled if they have breathing difficulties if they are their age etc so you have a lot of information in an effort to call all the informations written down and basically consolidated the control unit right I'm

02:06:23 consolidated the control unit right I'm just wondering as you're taking in that information back to the command unit from the person doing an exercise on ground or on the fire ground where was that person getting the information

02:06:34 that person getting the information information may well been coming from actual residents themselves so it's like with as Dave Pattillo was he just literally walked into a woman who said my daughter's on the 20th floor so I think a lot of FS cheese were coming

02:06:46 think a lot of FS cheese were coming from people on the outside who were looking up and saying my family's up there that's what happened to the guy Chris bachelor was talking to and June okay and the person who was giving you

02:06:57 okay and the person who was giving you the pieces of paper this is the guy that you do I you thought was from Houston yes and he was writing information on pieces of paper did you see him write information on pieces of paper and where is he getting their information from but

02:07:09 is he getting their information from but as I said I think it's from other people in the fire ground core he's got a direct likes as if there isn't a do there as well what station manager yes so he will have had direct contact with

02:07:21 so he will have had direct contact with control so he may well have been through that he would've had direct contact with control new things but they so station managed to have by ground not fire ground radios but um radios that have a dual capacity to work on the fire ground

02:07:33 dual capacity to work on the fire ground but also directly to control did you see the person that you are taking the pieces of paper from on the radio to

02:07:44 pieces of paper from on the radio to control directly no I know I know they would have had a radio honey we've had that capability okay and what was the purpose of giving these pieces of paper to the command

02:07:55 these pieces of paper to the command unit do you remember because the command unit can consolidate them and then say and then feed that into the bridgehead okay how would they feed that into the bridgehead by the fire radio or at some point if the radios congested they could

02:08:07 point if the radios congested they could do it directly as impede us in run pieces of paper the opposite direction and do you know the names of the people or in the command unit you were giving the pieces of paper to no I do not know

02:08:20 the pieces of paper to no I do not know what about you know which stations they were from no do you know whether the information was about people who needed

02:08:34 information was about people who needed to be rescued or about successful rescue so that they could be as it were crossed off the list no it's about people who needed to be rescued as well I was concerned because I was aware just there the volume of

02:08:47 I was aware just there the volume of FSGS coming into volume of people who need to be rescued right yes the scale of it was was was unheard of

02:08:57 and do you remember how long you were carrying out this role ferrying like maybe three or four me to two or three trips right it from from there just takes you're a blonde

02:09:08 takes you're a blonde take it over take two or three to time run it over so not long but it was it was he was he stuck to my mind because I realized how many reading and how many people in trouble and how many families

02:09:20 people in trouble and how many families they were in trouble and how many flats have been compromised okay and just one or two questions

02:09:29 are you happy to go on a little bit if yes it's possible

02:09:34 yes mr. chairman I've only got about five more minutes that's all right it's just I thought the witness should be passed

02:09:42 passed yes of course I just want to ask you about smoke vents if you go to page eight of your your statement you say the

02:09:53 eight of your your statement you say the last paragraph three lines down from the start of that paragraph the smoke extraction system wasn't working is that something you yourself observed on the night it's a it's a presumption because

02:10:07 night it's a it's a presumption because the the stairwell which should have been a protected stairwell protected by a smoke extraction system which we knew existed that the stairwell was completely compromised so your that's an

02:10:18 completely compromised so your that's an assumption well several MPs yeah that's a self-evident presumption can I just get back then to the question of num numbering you you did two trips above the bridgehead the first one was when he

02:10:30 the bridgehead the first one was when he went to the fifth and sixth floors that you described yes and the second was the trip with the BA from the 8th floor to the 20 on the first trip when he first went above the bridge head up to the fourth floor than fit and safe did you

02:10:44 fourth floor than fit and safe did you notice anything about the floor signs that

02:10:46 that stage as in the levels yes you know notice whether or not they were clearly really to be honest no they don't way I knew I was on the fourth because that's where that the fire floor see because

02:10:58 where that the fire floor see because you're only traveling one or two floors two flights of stairs or on the fifth do something then two flights of stairs on the sixth oh there's no need to count them well I sorry I never noticed anything you didn't know okay and then

02:11:12 anything you didn't know okay and then ask you one of two questions about radios the other in your trip up to the 20th floor with Dave video and Chris

02:11:24 20th floor with Dave video and Chris secret I think you said that they won't have handheld radios yes were they on do you know whether they were I put it on you know where they operated yes okay and could you hear that your radio was

02:11:37 and could you hear that your radio was transmitted to their radio I don't know actually

02:11:43 actually you were spread out so I can't I wouldn't be able to hear right if so if they're a floor ahead of me I wouldn't hear necessarily what their radio was doing would there be any reason why you couldn't transmit to them because you're

02:11:54 couldn't transmit to them because you're in the group yeah yeah we could try could it yes I could do and also if you're close together if maybe six feet away or tell me to wait if I'm transmitting you get not static that

02:12:05 transmitting you get not static that kind of high high tone whistling the feedback a feedback you get the feedback so you've now immediately so you need you know to move further away so someone transmits next to you you don't hear the message you get feedback and I never happened that didn't happen

02:12:16 and I never happened that didn't happen yeah but no so did you and did you ever actually experience being able to communicate with them even though they were close by on your fire ground rate you know so we do it by you in in

02:12:27 you know so we do it by you in in darkness and be a you'd always do it by shouting as opposed to because you should never really be too far apart to be a partner cease your search room Cielo be you should always be touchable really and certainly within voice range because as soon as you're more than a

02:12:39 because as soon as you're more than a few meters away you risk getting lost right

02:12:43 right finally did you ever suggest to either Chris secret or David ear that they should try their fire ground radios to be able to contact the bridgehead I'm fairly sure Chris try I don't about

02:12:54 I'm fairly sure Chris try I don't about Dave and I'm fairly sure Chris tried at one point but I know the radios were working because earlier in the in the night I've been communicating quite well with Chris secret at the bridgehead and with David Dillo between the third and fourth floor I could hear just in a

02:13:06 and fourth floor I could hear just in a burn on the radio I hear traffic from outside even so they were definitely working definitely on yes

02:13:23 just finally the last paragraph of page 8 your statement mr. doggy you say in the third line we could have done with maths for casualties to give a portable

02:13:35 maths for casualties to give a portable 15 minutes is that a piece of equipment that actually exists it's a piece of equipment it does exist but it's not used by the London Fire Brigade do you know whether it's used by any other fire

02:13:46 know whether it's used by any other fire brigade in the MyPlate leave it is and I'll drag it to a sebaceous self-contained mass but you can put on your face has 50 minutes of oxygen I know there's a watch manager at the moment who is working on a project to

02:13:59 moment who is working on a project to produce those if we had them on the night it would have made a huge difference were they were they generally available in the UK to UK five brigades at the moment as that June 2000 Java you

02:14:11 at the moment as that June 2000 Java you can see them on the Internet you said we did that in the following days one of the guys were saying what we need is these there on the internet about 60 pounds each do they have a do they have an independent supply there yes 15 in a little little face canister it's like

02:14:23 little little face canister it's like almost like a scuba diving mask little thing on the plane you like a chemical mask you'd see on using on a chemical spraying room or something just a little oxygen cylinders here but only had

02:14:34 oxygen cylinders here but only had thoroughly independent lightweight portable easily used by children adults didn't have them do you know for a fact we were inexperienced that these are in use in tower blocks high-rise buildings

02:14:47 use in tower blocks high-rise buildings in the UK I wouldn't say there would be I don't think they're in tower blocks I think there may be other brigades who use them but I couldn't swear to that but I can say that though there is a use for them and they do exist and they're

02:14:58 for them and they do exist and they're not absorbedly expensive so they could have

02:15:07 mr. dalgo I've got no further questions for you no challenge No thank you very much indeed I'm very grateful to you for coming to us and explaining so much to us in the other it's very much extremely healthy thank you very much it's been

02:15:20 healthy thank you very much it's been really valuable to have your evidence I'm sorry it took longer than you hoped but it's been very useful to us and I just like to say I'm full of admiration for your courage

02:15:31 for your courage thank you thanks we'd like to go to the action um mr. Chen before you rise that

02:15:44 action um mr. Chen before you rise that there are discussions going on at the moment between the inquiry team and some core participants about the timetable for the rest of this week and the early part of next I'm not sure I'm able to

02:15:55 part of next I'm not sure I'm able to say anything today to you about that but I hope to have some clear news first thing in the morning yes all right there needs to be some jigging digging around with the timetable a little bit but I hope not

02:16:06 timetable a little bit but I hope not too much are you able to tell us who we're going to see in the morning yes in the morning we will have Daniel Merrick and he will be he will be our witness

02:16:20 and he will be he will be our witness for tomorrow well that's very helpful thank you very much well we run the rather late in the season and Fred but I think it was in everyone's interest to complete mr. dog as evidence certainly

02:16:33 complete mr. dog as evidence certainly in his interest we'll break now and resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow please thank you