Granville Partlow of PSB UK gives evidence on commissioning Grenfell's smoke control system. Reveals he had no specific smoke control qualifications, produced error-filled commissioning documents under time pressure, adapted method statements from different buildings, and failed to properly test all system activation methods.
00:00:55 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to hear evidence from mr granville partly
00:01:01 partly who commissioned the smoke control system at grenfell tower yes ms great yes thank you can we call mr partlow please thank you
00:01:20 good morning mr partner i understand you're going to make the affirmation yeah so could i ask you please to read the words on the screen in front of you i do solemnly sincerely and truly
00:01:32 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare
00:01:33 declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now do sit down make yourself comfortable there's some water there if you want it
00:01:49 all right yeah good thank you very much when you're ready for scrange yes thank you yes good morning mr partlow and thank you very much for coming to assist the inquiry with its investigations it's very much
00:02:00 its investigations it's very much appreciated i'm going to be asking you the questions today if you have any difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you please just ask me to repeat the question or or put the point in a different way
00:02:12 or put the point in a different way and also can you keep your voice up so that the transcriber lady who's just sitting to your right can take a nice clear note of your evidence now you've made two witness statements for the inquiry can i take you to the
00:02:23 for the inquiry can i take you to the first one it's at psb 401309
00:02:29 there's this statement and if we look at page 26 we can see it's dated the 28th of september 2018 and is that your signature it is and
00:02:42 and is that your signature it is and have you read that statement recently yes and can you confirm that the contents are true to the best of your knowledge and belief they are yes thank you and if we can now pull up your second witness statement
00:02:53 pull up your second witness statement that's psb 401372
00:02:58 401372 there's that second statement and if we go to page nine we can see that's dated the 26th of march 2021 and again is that uh your signature it
00:03:11 and again is that uh your signature it is
00:03:11 is and have you read that statement recently i have yeah and can you confirm that the contents are true to the best of my knowledge yes thank you
00:03:20 you and have you discussed the evidence you're going to give with anybody before coming here today no thank you now i'm going to start by asking you some questions about your qualifications and experience if we can look um
00:03:33 and experience if we can look um at your statement your first statement at page two
00:03:39 you've set those out at paragraph six through to eight you tell us at paragraph six that you're a qualified electrician and electrical engineer
00:03:48 engineer over the last 40 years you've worked in various industries including mines and quarries
00:03:52 quarries metal fabrication plastics and the chemicals in industry and you've held positions as an electrical engineer and commissioning engineer both electrical and mechanical as well as several managerial roles is
00:04:05 as well as several managerial roles is that correct it is yes and then you've set out your qualifications for us at paragraph seven including various city and guilds qualifications and diplomas
00:04:18 qualifications and diplomas and then and we can see in the middle there's a city and guilds diploma third bullet down in advanced pneumatic systems
00:04:25 systems and one in advanced hydraulic systems below that and then at the in paragraph eight at the bottom of the page you say you've got experience of using
00:04:36 you've got experience of using various programming including autocad and over the years you've attended courses
00:04:42 courses on various software workplace organization investors in people and team building and you say you hold various safety cards
00:04:51 cards and that you're a member of the british institute of managers is that correct it is i'm not a member anymore but yes i used to be thank you now we'll come to your
00:05:02 thank you now we'll come to your experience and job roles in a moment but focusing for now on your qualifications to what extent did any of these qualifications relate to smoke control systems and the commissioning of those systems
00:05:14 commissioning of those systems the electrical qualification and to a small extent the pneumatic and hydraulic systems yeah are all part of uh
00:05:26 yeah are all part of uh flows you know so the the similar uh to
00:05:33 ventilation systems yes i see and have you received any specific training on commissioning smoke control systems from the experts that work for the company
00:05:45 the experts that work for the company and working alongside them yeah yeah but no other
00:05:49 no other form of training or qualifications i don't think there is any no i understand let's go now to paragraphs nine and ten of your first statement on page two
00:06:01 page two um and this sets out your your work experience or your work history you tell us at paragraph nine that you started working for what is now the whit uk group in 2005 and that that group is
00:06:14 uk group in 2005 and that that group is made up of four companies psb wit sun uk limited wit and sun properties limited and wit sun holdings limited and you say initially you were employed as a works
00:06:25 initially you were employed as a works engineer
00:06:27 engineer and that you've been commissioning and servicing smoke control systems since about 2006 is that correct that's correct yes and then in paragraph 10 you explain your
00:06:38 10 you explain your employment experience before you began at whitt
00:06:42 at whitt you say prior to working for that group you were an industrial engineer for the bradbury group where you were responsible for amongst other things modernizing production lines in their factories
00:06:52 factories and before that you spent 14 years in the plastics industry working in a variety of roles including electrical engineer maintenance manager and production manager so is it right that before you
00:07:03 manager so is it right that before you began
00:07:03 began working for the whit group you hadn't previously worked on smoke control systems
00:07:08 systems that's correct no i am yeah now turning to your role with psb and wit more widely if we look at over on page three of your first statement
00:07:20 statement paragraph 11 you explain that in your role as
00:07:24 role as group service and engineering manager and that was your position in 2016 when you commissioned the grenfell system is that right it is yes yeah in that role you say you were responsible for the day-to-day
00:07:35 were responsible for the day-to-day running of the service department for all of the companies within the whit uk group and you you go on typically my role involves commissioning and servicing a variety of products that were designed
00:07:47 a variety of products that were designed and installed by one of the companies in the whit uk group or by another company the products i commissioned and serviced included all forms of smoke ventilation extraction and control systems is that
00:07:59 extraction and control systems is that correct
00:08:00 correct it is yes so would they be those be smoke
00:08:04 smoke control systems and um like environmental extraction and control systems yeah they could be both air conditioning systems not air conditioning as such but ventilation yes
00:08:15 ventilation yes car park and tunnel extraction systems smoke clearance and then above ground which is residential or office buildings yes thank you and then at paragraph 12
00:08:28 yes thank you and then at paragraph 12 you say
00:08:29 you say more recently my role has changed slightly and i'm now more involved in the sales of whit uk group products although i still oversee commissioning and servicing and regularly carry out commissioning and servicing of systems now
00:08:42 and servicing of systems now later on in your witness statement i don't think we need to turn it up now but for the transcript it's at paragraph 136 you say that you had commissioned countless systems over the years and that's a comment that you make in
00:08:54 and that's a comment that you make in the context of your evidence about the firemen's override switch at grenfell town we'll come to that aspect of the system later but i just want to ask you about your your general experience of such
00:09:05 your general experience of such systems i know you say countless systems but could you just estimate for us how many
00:09:11 many smoke control systems you were commissioning per year for example say in 2016 itself approximately
00:09:25 combined car parks and above ground systems
00:09:28 systems probably 20 30. yeah yeah yeah that's helpful now prior to your work commissioning the grenfell tower system
00:09:39 grenfell tower system in between february and april 2016 what experience did you have of commissioning smoke control systems in residential high-rise buildings well i'd been commissioning
00:09:52 well i'd been commissioning in above ground smoke control and car park systems since about 2006 2007 initially working alongside the
00:10:03 initially working alongside the company smoke specialists and mainly been involved in the control side of it yeah so the electrical and mechanical side rather than the system side and and
00:10:15 system side and and basically that had carried on from that date yeah
00:10:18 date yeah and what proportion of that work that above ground work was on residential high-rise buildings would you say uh probably 15 10 percent high rise i'm
00:10:32 uh probably 15 10 percent high rise i'm suggesting 10 floors or above yes okay you think 10 to 15 percent of your work would have been high rise i had above 10 stories yeah yeah possibly more poor
00:10:44 yeah possibly more poor gas and how much just in general terms how much do such systems vary from domestic building to domestic building are they often very variable the systems you have to commission
00:10:57 they vary slightly but and obviously building to building the vary depending on
00:11:02 on lengths of corridors what type of corridors whether they're l-shaped t-shaped whatever whether it's a push-pull system a true reversible system
00:11:13 reversible system so there's different types whether it's a pressurized lobby or depressurized lobby system yeah so there is there is a fair variety yeah but it's a limited variety yeah
00:11:26 yeah but it's a limited variety yeah and how much experience had you had prior to the grenfell tower project of commissioning a mechanical extract system using pressure differentials probably of the above ground systems we
00:11:39 probably of the above ground systems we did 50
00:11:41 did 50 so 50 of those were mechanical pressure differential systems yeah so they they're firefighting lobby extract systems right so there's no corridors of such it's
00:11:52 so there's no corridors of such it's just a lobby yeah and what experience did you have of commissioning systems which had a dual smoke control and environmental function was that a common feature of your work
00:12:03 was that a common feature of your work no it was probably
00:12:07 one in every 10 or 15. yeah yeah so that was more unusual was it to get a combined system yeah because yeah they don't generally work
00:12:18 when you say they don't generally the environmental side if you're trying to call a little lobby down and your outside ambient is say 29 degrees
00:12:28 degrees best you're going to call that lobby is to say 26 right which is still too warm yeah okay what about the smoke control aspects of combined systems do they normally doesn't yeah it doesn't affect
00:12:39 normally doesn't yeah it doesn't affect it
00:12:40 it it's entirely separate yeah now in your experience how typical was the grenfell tower system as a smoke control system for a residential
00:12:51 smoke control system for a residential high-rise building it was a bit of a one-off a bit of a one-off have you ever come across anything like it before well similarly yeah because it was a depressurized lobby system so
00:13:03 depressurized lobby system so it's quite often used more commonly in office blocks commercial buildings rather than residential yeah but the kind of system that was
00:13:14 yeah but the kind of system that was used
00:13:15 used uh negative pressure within that lobby to protect the stairwell uh is is quite a common kind of system yeah but a grenfell was
00:13:26 yeah but a grenfell was governed by what it had available to use basically yeah and that's why you initially said it was a bit of a one-off is that right yeah and it honey and it
00:13:37 is that right yeah and it honey and it normally
00:13:38 normally we would be commissioning in a new build or a new building that's empty yeah so you would probably go in there and be three to four days you know to do ten floors say yeah uh
00:13:51 you know to do ten floors say yeah uh whereas regretful if we're done in bits and pieces so the initial pre-commissioning was done from floor four to twenty three yeah then we did floor one and floor two
00:14:04 yeah then we did floor one and floor two yeah and then eventually we went back and did
00:14:07 and did floor three et cetera yeah i'm going to come on to that in a moment about the stages in which you took the grenfell work but
00:14:13 work but that's very helpful thank you and do you still work for psb yes group you do now let's turn to your work at grenfell tower um
00:14:23 tower um if we go to paragraph 17 of your first witness statement on page four you explained that psb was instructed to
00:14:34 you explained that psb was instructed to provide commissioning services to js wright by way of purchase orders dated the 21st of january 2016 and the 26th of january 2016.
00:14:47 now just in general terms what was your understanding of the purpose of commissioning the system what was it meant to achieve two correctly identify all the component
00:14:59 correctly identify all the component parts
00:15:00 parts to ensure that all of those parts were connected
00:15:04 connected to the correct control system on each level to ensure that all those different bits and pieces that comprise the system worked as
00:15:16 that comprise the system worked as design and then eventually to uh once everything had been tested to make sure it operated according to the cause and effect
00:15:29 okay thank you and we'll come back to that cause and effect document in due course in general terms can we agree that the key purpose of commissioning is to demonstrate that a system can
00:15:41 is to demonstrate that a system can adequately perform the functions for which it was designed well that's the general idea yes thank you
00:15:48 you now if we go to paragraph 13 of your first statement on page three you tell us there that you attended
00:15:55 attended grenfell tower between a variety of dates
00:15:59 dates so from you attended on two occasions in february
00:16:03 february um sorry three in february then in march and then in uh april 2016. so you give us the the days
00:16:12 days and you attended three days five days four days four days three days so that that's where you said earlier that it was done piecemeal if you like is that correct yes basically and and you're saying there
00:16:23 basically and and you're saying there in that first uh line that you attended on those dates to commission the system now i'm going to come to your use of the worst commit of the word commission in that paragraph in just a moment but
00:16:34 in that paragraph in just a moment but just before we get to that who directed you to attend grenfell tower to undertake this work at the tower
00:16:41 tower who instructed you to do the work the project manager and who was that project manager david harrison
00:16:48 harrison yeah and what involvement if any had you had with the grenfell tower project prior to this point so prior to attending on the 3rd of february 2016.
00:17:01 attending on the 3rd of february 2016. very little i was asked would i be able to attend before christmas uh which was to see if they could activate the system in some way over
00:17:14 activate the system in some way over christmas
00:17:15 christmas which i said no it can't be done yeah and then
00:17:19 and then probably the week before i first attended site i would have been given a commissioning pack
00:17:25 pack by the project manager which would have had it would have been a basically a folder
00:17:31 folder would have had all the drawings in all the relevant documents required copy of the cause and effect etc i would have also
00:17:38 have also downloaded a full set of those drawings onto my
00:17:41 onto my laptop so i could take them with me as well yes
00:17:45 well yes and the software obviously and was that a typical process for you in the commissioning role that you would just get a brief just a few days before commissioning the system was that the
00:17:56 commissioning the system was that the normal way it worked generally maximum i would have had uh knowledge of it would probably be about two weeks before yeah because obviously they'd fill my
00:18:08 yeah because obviously they'd fill my calendar with the different buildings i was supposed to attend over that period yeah and just to be absolutely clear i think i know what your answer is going to be but did you have any involvement in the design
00:18:20 in the design of the smoke control system at grenfell tower that you were commissioning no no did you actually speak to any of the designers of the system within psb before you attended grenfell
00:18:31 within psb before you attended grenfell tower on that date not that i can remember now so you didn't get any kind of briefing by a designer of the system the designer which was mr mani
00:18:44 the designer which was mr mani i think it actually left before we left the company before we actually started yeah the commission in any way yeah so probably you know a brief chat with
00:18:56 so probably you know a brief chat with david
00:18:57 david at some point prior to going to site just so as he could give me a bit of information about the site where it was what it involved you know but it had been just a brief outline
00:19:08 been just a brief outline yeah now if we can go now to paragraphs four to six of your second statement at page two of that
00:19:19 and and you tell us this in paragraph four to six and it's headed terminology of commissioning in paragraph 13 of my first statement i said that i attended grenfell tower to
00:19:30 i said that i attended grenfell tower to quote commission the system on dates between february and april 2016. i now appreciate that the word commissioning may have different meanings to different people i used the word to encompass all of my
00:19:43 i used the word to encompass all of my activities on site associated with testing and commissioning the system as i was asked to attend site to check and test components of the system on numerous occasions as it was being installed it may help to
00:19:54 as it was being installed it may help to clarify my use of the word commissioning in my first statement and then at paragraph six you go on to say my visits to grenfell tower in february 2016 were to check the progress of the
00:20:06 were to check the progress of the installation of the system and where possible test the functionality of the components which had been installed i was not commissioning in the strict sense
00:20:16 sense the system in line with the performance criteria at this stage obviously i could not confirm that it was a viable system until construction was complete so there you have um
00:20:27 was complete so there you have um helpfully clarified that your visits in february were to check the progress of the installation and where possible check the functionality of installed components but you were not at that stage
00:20:38 but you were not at that stage commissioning the system is that correct yes that's correct and you tell us you go on to tell us if we can move down the page at paragraph eight
00:20:49 move down the page at paragraph eight you tell us that your interim report that you produced dated the 28th of february 2016 following those february visits was not intended to be used as evidence
00:21:00 was not intended to be used as evidence that the system had been fully or partially commissioned is that correct that's correct yes um and picking it up in the fourth line you say the report just demonstrated
00:21:11 you say the report just demonstrated that certain elements of the system had been tested and were working rather than being able to say they were commissioned i included the following comments to make the limitation of my report clear
00:21:22 make the limitation of my report clear and you say that you wrote in the report this is not a full commissioning report it covers flaws four to twenty three only
00:21:29 only to complete the commissioning floors ground to three will need to have all builders work complete including floors fitted and vent shafts sealed volumetric readings can only be taken when all builders works are
00:21:40 taken when all builders works are complete
00:21:42 complete so it would appear that the position was that when you attended in february there were still works going on to the lower floors is that correct yes that's correct and that's why you couldn't commission the whole system
00:21:53 couldn't commission the whole system yes yes i understand now um just looking back then at paragraph 13 of your first statement on page three
00:22:07 you've told us that the february dates were not for the purpose of commissioning that's the first three bullet points can we just be absolutely clear does it follow from what you've told us that the march and april visits that you
00:22:19 that the march and april visits that you undertook to the tower were for the purpose of commissioning the system against the performance criteria
00:22:28 it would have been partially that but it was not it wouldn't have been complete because the existing entrance level which became level
00:22:40 level two i think yeah wasn't completed until just before i went back in the april so we still would not have been able to complete the full system
00:22:52 been able to complete the full system what did happen is the dampers on that level were closed and it allowed us to take some volumetric readings on other floors but we we never took the
00:23:07 on other floors but we we never took the full set of readings until the april i think it was i see but are you saying that in april in those three days between the 26th and 28th of april
00:23:18 28th of april the whole system was finished and you were able
00:23:22 were able to take complete readings including from level two yes you were yeah so as far as you're concerned you did actually complete the commissioning of the system did you
00:23:33 the system did you in april yes in april yeah
00:23:40 now let's go to um psb 50802 now
00:23:49 yes this is an email dated the 9th of december 2015. um it's from david harrison of psb to you
00:23:59 you we can see that at the top and he's forwarding an email sent from hugh marney
00:24:04 marney to jonathan earl of j s wright with a breakdown of psb's proposed commissioning work activities um so you can see below you've been sent
00:24:15 um so you can see below you've been sent an email that just says heads up and then below that hugh marni from december
00:24:20 december 2015 had sent js wright copying in some others at psb um an email which said we anticipate having a pair of men on site for just under two weeks and our price includes
00:24:32 under two weeks and our price includes board lodge and travelling in addition upon completion test certificates and compliance documents will be provided basic breakdown of our commissioning work activities as follows we have to take readings on every floor
00:24:44 we have to take readings on every floor for both smoke ventilation and environmental ventilation and then if we just scroll down that page we can see [Music]
00:24:54 [Music] we can see a list of commissioning activities linked back to the cause and effect checklist can you see that in that email now had
00:25:06 can you see that in that email now had you seen that list before you first attended grenfell tower well if it was a if i received the email then yes i would have seen yeah do you remember seeing it
00:25:17 remember seeing it i don't really remember seeing it but i would have definitely seen it was this a standard psb document setting out the stages of commissioning work activity i wouldn't
00:25:28 commissioning work activity i wouldn't say
00:25:28 say standard it was specific to grenville because of the how the system was designed i see yeah now in paragraphs 18 to 23 of your first witness statement
00:25:39 witness statement you explain that before your first attendance at grenfell tower you had a number of documents um and we can see that the first document
00:25:51 and we can see that the first document you mentioned if we if we go to your first statement on page
00:25:55 on page just to remind you of this section of your statement and look at paragraph 18. so you say before i attended grenfell tower the following principle documents were provided to me
00:26:06 were provided to me that's at paragraph 18 and you say at 19 a copy of the psb commissioning method statement and risk assessment dated february 2016 and provided to alan white of jsri on the 1st of february
00:26:19 white of jsri on the 1st of february 2016. now who was the author of that commissioning method statement and risk assessment well without seeing it i don't know i
00:26:30 well without seeing it i don't know i know i did an updated risk assessment whether that's the one yes let's look at it so it's psb 50941
00:26:43 there we go that's the psb commissioning method statement and risk assessment for grenfell tower it's dated february 2016
00:26:54 and we can see psv's logos at the top and if we just look on within it just to refresh your memory
00:27:03 there we can see the contents page we could move down the pages the revision history scope of works etc
00:27:14 scope of works etc do you see that yes i know yeah now does that help you remember who was the author of that document
00:27:21 document that is probably the one that i did yeah yeah
00:27:25 yeah and can you help us what was the purpose of the method statement and risk assessment document what was its main purpose
00:27:33 purpose prior to going on site to carry out any works the
00:27:39 main builder the mep company would expect a method statement and it's mainly really not so much it's
00:27:50 and it's mainly really not so much it's a brief outline method statement of how you're going to commission the system but it's more from a safety point of view right and and kosh
00:28:01 and and kosh you know are you going to be taking any chemicals on site or anything like that that could be hazardous or dangerous this particular statement i was asked this particular
00:28:14 statement i was asked this particular method statement i was asked to prepare it and send it just a few days before i was due on site for commissioning yes normally it would have been done by either myself
00:28:26 it would have been done by either myself or the
00:28:28 or the uh
00:28:32 pm that was running it project manager the project manager which was david uh on this occasion i don't know if david wasn't available but i did it but basically what i did
00:28:44 but i did it but basically what i did is i had to i was in a hotel and they wanted it for the following day and i i think i emailed another colleague
00:28:53 colleague from the company to send me a generic method statement out which are then amended
00:29:00 amended as best i could quickly yes to send it out to the client so they'd have it prior to me arriving on site yes thank you that's helpful i i can actually take you i'm going to take you to the emails
00:29:11 you i'm going to take you to the emails where you're being asked for a method statement and then the emails where you request
00:29:16 request um a precedent for that from your colleague so we'll just come to that just before we go to those email exchanges if we look at paragraph 11 of your second statement on page three
00:29:30 you say the circumstances in which this document came to be produced are explained in email exchanges provided to the inquiry it was produced by me at a busy time it contains errors and does not accurately
00:29:41 contains errors and does not accurately reflect the system is that right yeah basically were you aware at the time you actually prepared the document that it contained errors or are those errors something you've spotted subsequently
00:29:52 spotted subsequently the errors were made mainly through me doing it at a busy time uh and no i didn't notice them when i did it but afterwards when they were pointed out yes obviously
00:30:04 when they were pointed out yes obviously yes
00:30:05 yes it was basically the description of the system that was wrong the type of system yes and can you help us
00:30:11 us why did you not explain in your first witness statement that that document contained errors which you were aware of because until i'd read it a few times i just didn't appreciate i've made the
00:30:22 just didn't appreciate i've made the mistakes i've made i see i understand so let's look at the emails that you're referring to in in that bit of your statement if we can go first to psb 50917
00:30:34 this is an email dated the 29th of uh january 2016 from david harrison to you forwarding an email from jsright
00:30:47 to you forwarding an email from jsright if we if we look at the email below first we can see that mr white of j s wright has said to mr harrison and mr ma mani hi david can you help me out with a
00:30:58 mani hi david can you help me out with a commissioning statement this is being requested from our client and would also help me understand your intended methodology if you have any outstanding queries or concerns please shout now so that's 28th of january 2016.
00:31:10 of january 2016. and on the the day later friday the 29th david harrison emails you and says granville do you have a standard commissioning procedure do you see that email
00:31:21 you see that email i do yes and we don't see any response to that email but then if we go to psb nine 50396
00:31:47 psb50936 sorry that's me saying it wrongly thank you
00:31:51 you sorry um if we look three emails down on this page
00:31:56 this page we can see that on the first of february mr white of j s wright has sent to mr harrison and mr mani another email saying david hugh our client needs to
00:32:08 saying david hugh our client needs to see a commissioning statement detailing what will be carried out when and why issuing info will also benefit yourself as i will have the detailed knowledge required to assist the smooth running of your works
00:32:20 your works i have been asked to issue this no later than the second prior to commencement did you have it over to me by the end of play today please so you can see that js wright are chasing
00:32:31 chasing for that commissioning method statement and then in response one email up
00:32:41 we go up the page david harrison emails you at 7 35 on the 2nd of february
00:32:48 february so the second the next day saying hi granville
00:32:52 granville this guy keeps pressing can you draft something just to keep them informed david now what did you understand him to mean by just to keep them informed
00:33:04 basically that they wanted a method statement
00:33:10 statement before i attended site so that i have some idea of how i was going to carry out the commissioning yeah and what safety aspects etc yeah was it psb's normal practice to provide
00:33:21 was it psb's normal practice to provide a method statement before attending site yes it was yes and and can you explain why it hadn't been done prior to these emails being
00:33:32 prior to these emails being exchanged i used to do some of them the project managers used to do some depending uh basically just i was on site all the
00:33:44 basically just i was on site all the time and just didn't get a chance to do it
00:33:45 it yeah so then it got to the point where they were wanting it like the following day
00:33:52 day so that's why i asked for a a copy of one from elsewhere that i could basically just adapt to suit so that they've got something to work with
00:34:03 something to work with yeah i mean it it's not going to be 100 accurate
00:34:07 accurate because until you start commissioning you don't know what's going to happen on any one day so it's a broad outline of how you're going to carry it out safely yeah but i mean had it just got forgotten or did you know it was outstanding but you
00:34:18 did you know it was outstanding but you were just busy i didn't realize it was outstanding i just assumed david would have done it yeah
00:34:24 yeah and then um at the top of the page we can see your response at 10 13 where you say back to mr harrison i will struggle to get it done as i'm at a site today and tomorrow but we'll see what time i
00:34:36 and tomorrow but we'll see what time i have to spare later just a thought tim mightily have something on file if you if you want to give him a call he could have sending it to me and i
00:34:48 he could have sending it to me and i could adapt it so i think that's um you asking for a method statement from an another job is that right so that you can adapt it yeah and who is tim
00:35:01 yeah and who is tim tim hague he was the contract manager with the company at the time yeah and the word mightily what did that mean in that email that's when you just type in wrong oh i see i'm doing it on a samsung phone and i've got big fat thumbs
00:35:13 i've got big fat thumbs thank you it looks nice to me as though you've been the victim of the auto complete yeah predictive text predictive text
00:35:20 text yeah and
00:35:23 yeah and um can we take it from this that psd psb didn't have a standard commissioning method statement document detailing what testing would be carried out
00:35:35 testing would be carried out at this point yeah because the the each job is different because you know the number of flaws changes the method statement
00:35:44 statement whether it's corridors whether it's a lobby whether it's a depressurized system
00:35:49 system a push-pull system a reversible system so each statement is a yeah it's it's a one-off for that particular building i see does that mean every time you did one of these method statements you had
00:36:00 one of these method statements you had to write it from scratch or were there any kind of um guides within not from scratch you would you would take a similar method statement from a similar job
00:36:11 similar job and then change it to suit a number of flaws job number building reference building name location
00:36:21 location yeah type of system yeah and then if we can move on with the emails if we can go to psb 50938
00:36:31 50938 and look at the foot of the page we can see this is an email from someone called this is this is the tim is it tim haye
00:36:39 haye tim hey at psb that's psb's contract manager we understand to you later on the first of february 2016
00:36:47 2016 the subject is rams is that risk assessment method statement yeah and um he says attached is rca method statement
00:36:58 he says attached is rca method statement you may be able to adapt yes now can you help us what was the um rca method statement rca is the royal college of arts battersea
00:37:12 is the royal college of arts battersea and it's another job that psp undertook on two occasions on two different areas of their college where we installed small control systems
00:37:24 where we installed small control systems uh it wasn't an exact match for grenfell because
00:37:29 because well uh rca were probably six or seven floors
00:37:33 floors uh grenfell is a lot more and it was more of a corridor system rather than a lobby system at royal college but it's it's nonetheless it's it's got all the basic characteristics of
00:37:46 all the basic characteristics of what safety procedures you're going to adopt it's all to do with like working at height and various things it's not just the methodology of how you're going to commission it
00:37:57 commission it it's i think a risk assessment is well combined
00:38:01 combined yeah and then we can see your response at the top you say to him thanks should do nicely um and if we go on within this email chains to
00:38:11 chains to psb 50941
00:38:19 psb 50941 we can see your email at 1405 at the bottom of that page an hour and a half later to david harrison with the risk
00:38:30 to david harrison with the risk assessment method statement who then forwards it on to js wright we can see that then at the top of the page
00:38:40 he says in the second line hi alan rams for commissioning as requested so i think as you've explained you adapted that method statement from the royal college of arts one
00:38:52 royal college of arts one um how did you do that did you just edit it to edit the document yes just edit it copy and paste and we can see that the email was sent one and a half hours after receiving the
00:39:03 one and a half hours after receiving the rca one can you can we take it from that you didn't spend more than one and a half hours on it well probably can you recall how long you did spend adapting it probably about one and a
00:39:15 adapting it probably about one and a half hours yeah i would have started modifying it as soon as i got here yeah and then once it was finished sent it out to david yeah and at the time did you think you'd given enough time and attention to that document
00:39:27 document at the time yes yeah
00:39:32 and looking back now does the fact that you adopted this other rca statement as your template rather than preparing your own from scratch does that account for some of the errors that you've now acknowledged in it
00:39:44 that you've now acknowledged in it most probably yeah yeah now if we can go to section 13 of that psp method statement so this is psb50941
00:39:56 psp method statement so this is psb50941 and i want to look at page 11.
00:40:00 at section 13 we can see there is an inspection and test plan that's the heading at the top of the page with a list
00:40:07 list of tasks and it says underneath before psp can commission the system all the points below must be confirmed as 100 complete
00:40:18 as 100 complete and we've then got a list of tasks for example under installation it says ensure all the ventilation system equipment has been correctly installed and connected visually checked there's no damage to equipment have all control panels being
00:40:30 equipment have all control panels being correctly installed and connected
00:40:34 so was that effectively a checklist of installation tasks that needed to be completed prior to commissioning yes basically
00:40:46 and is it right that although the document lists the tasks that must be completed as part of installation and then commissioning nowhere do we see within this
00:40:57 nowhere do we see within this commissioning method statement anything about which specific standards or guidance documents were relevant to that commissioning process which were going to be used is that right
00:41:08 that right that's correct yes did you intend to carry out that commissioning process in compliance with any particular
00:41:19 in compliance with any particular standards or guidance documents it would have been carried out
00:41:26 with 101 part 101 to part 6. i think there's about eight or nine tests that have to be done on a depressurized system yeah combined
00:41:40 depressurized system yeah combined with smoke control associations guidelines yep probably bits of document approved document b yeah because it was an hybrid system it wasn't a true
00:41:52 wasn't a true uh depressurization system it wasn't a true mechanical vent system yes it was a mixture of the two yeah it became a mixture of the two to try and
00:42:03 try and give the desired outcome of protecting the stairwell yes i understand um and can you just explain why you wouldn't list
00:42:14 wouldn't list the the guidance documents that you were going to use to test the system in this commissioning method statement
00:42:23 normally the the guidance used would have been in the technical subs that were issued initially with you know
00:42:34 that were issued initially with you know with the with the project yeah in the actual the commissioning uh the rams is more from a safety point of view it's
00:42:46 is more from a safety point of view it's not
00:42:46 not an exact and precise uh document for how you're going to commission it on a day-to-day basis because you can't possibly do that right i mean i commissioned this tower over
00:42:57 i mean i commissioned this tower over 19 days yeah i couldn't foretell what happened on day three day seven day nine so it's it's it's a it's a generic list of items that you would check yeah
00:43:10 list of items that you would check yeah thank you
00:43:11 thank you now if we look at paragraph 13 of your second statement on page three
00:43:19 you say in this part of your second statement none of the inadequacies in the method statement hindered my understanding of the system or what i was required to do in undertaking the commissioning exercise on site
00:43:31 the commissioning exercise on site and then you go on to say in paragraph 14
00:43:35 14 that in fact you used other documents as your reference guides when undertaking the commissioning exercise not the method statement we see that particularly clearly in that last
00:43:46 clearly in that last line or that last few lines of paragraph 14.
00:43:49 14. so is that right that you didn't really rely on the method statement when you were commissioning you relied on other documents yes the the documents i would rely on would be
00:44:01 the documents i would rely on would be initially the 800 drawing to some extent the commissioning the rams obviously to make sure i didn't do anything different to what they were expecting
00:44:13 different to what they were expecting yeah as a guide and then the panel drawings the the board assignment drawings etc
00:44:24 the board assignment drawings etc and the cause and effect yeah are the main documents i would use yep now turning back to your first witness statement at page four paragraph 20
00:44:35 at page four paragraph 20 you tell us that the second document you used that
00:44:38 used that that you were provided with was something called psb e 800 electrical schematic
00:44:43 schematic rev e can we just look at that that's psb
00:44:48 50429
00:44:56 so if we could just maybe rotate it around
00:45:02 now we don't need to read the detail of this drawing but can you just explain in general terms what was the purpose of this document this electrical schematic
00:45:14 this document this electrical schematic that electrical schematic lists all the items that are connected to the control system
00:45:23 system on each level what the items are what they do as such
00:45:30 and i would use that effectively as a tick sheet so depending what level i was working on i would work i would work out from the out station and look at every item that
00:45:42 out station and look at every item that was connected on the house station so the the north and south shaft dampers the pressure detector the fireman's override yeah etc
00:45:54 the fireman's override yeah etc yeah i understand and um is it right therefore that this document showed where each of the smoke control components was and how the system was wired together
00:46:05 wired together yes yeah and just to be clear did you actually make use of that document during the commissioning process constantly yeah all the time and was this a typical schematic for such
00:46:17 this a typical schematic for such systems
00:46:18 systems yeah yeah as far as schematics are concerned yes yeah now going back to paragraph 21 of your first statement on page four the next document is called we can see
00:46:30 the next document is called we can see at the top of that page the panel and outstation data for the job which you've all you say in the second line which you refer to as the board assignment sheet yeah if we can go to
00:46:42 assignment sheet yeah if we can go to that document this is psb four zeros one two five six now again can you just help us what was the purpose of this document this panel and out station
00:46:55 this panel and out station well that particular one is for the master panel and it tells you on the x numbers x three one x three one
00:47:06 the x numbers x three one x three one two etc what is or should be connected onto those two connections so if you're just looking at the first one it's terminal rail x3 terminals one and two
00:47:18 terminals one and two it goes to the pressure switch the switch is identified as being ps1 yeah and it's 24 volt output and then you input back
00:47:30 and then you input back into the control panel yeah and in simple terms did this effectively explain how the electrical components were designed to work and how they linked together doesn't explain how they were designed
00:47:42 doesn't explain how they were designed to work but it does explain how they were linked together yeah so i would use that to ensure in conjunction with the 800 drawing to ensure that ps1 fos1 sde 1 ps2 etc
00:47:56 fos1 sde 1 ps2 etc were connected to the correct connections within that panel and they were connected to the correct dampers
00:48:04 dampers switches pressure detectors on that level yeah thank you yes thanks and then um the fourth document um if we go to paragraph 22 of your first
00:48:16 go to paragraph 22 of your first statement page five is you refer to as the psb fans and damper
00:48:22 damper operation cause and effect chart now you've mentioned this cause and effect chart i think already in your evidence and if we can pull that
00:48:31 pull that up this is a psb five zero three and we may need the native version actually
00:48:38 actually um that may actually that may work okay for our purposes so this is the cause and effect chart is that right it is yes and again in general tense can you just explain what this
00:48:50 you just explain what this showed that yeah make it a little bit bigger that shows for example if you just look at the first column which says ground floor
00:49:03 the first column which says ground floor and it says it's fire zone one and if fire zone one activates damper one
00:49:14 one and damper two will open so that's telling me if if you activate fire zone one yeah that's the dampers that'll open and if you carry across on that top line
00:49:26 and if you carry across on that top line everything else is shown as closed when you get to where the fans are it tells you
00:49:33 tells you what speed the fan should be running at yeah so i think the fans are in the second table they're on the lower side yeah on the right hand side we can see fans floor two in the roof and it tells
00:49:45 fans floor two in the roof and it tells us we'll come to this in a moment whether the fans are running at 100 or off is that correct yes well 100 percent
00:49:52 percent and under pressure detection that drop down to the low of speed yeah now who prepared that document do you know
00:50:06 i would imagine either you or the cat cat designers i'm not sure either humani yes or when you say the cad
00:50:14 cad well the the the design team prepare right
00:50:17 right lots of the all the different documents like the drawings the 800 the board assignments are provided by the control panel people etc yeah were you responsible for checking
00:50:29 yeah were you responsible for checking that it was an accurate document for use at grenfell tower well yes i would have to make sure that it
00:50:37 it it made sense if anything else yes and does this document describe how the system's fans should operate on every floor of the tower in both smoke mode and environmental mode
00:50:50 it doesn't it does show the environmental fan af whatever it is i believe but it doesn't it just shows it as being off because this is relevant to the
00:51:02 off because this is relevant to the fire mode so fire detected i see i see and i'm not sure if at bottom of that page somewhere it might mention that
00:51:11 that if the pressure switches are operated the fans will revert to a lower speed let's have a look see if we can see that
00:51:28 yes we'll have it we'll have a look see if we can see that i can't see where it says but
00:51:33 says but obviously i know that once you've once your lobby pressure gets too low the fans will ramp down right could it be three
00:51:48 yeah it is line three so it's a standard operation of fans by pressure differential switches i.e high and low speed based on open closed doors so where there's an x are we to take
00:52:00 so where there's an x are we to take that that was the standard operation of the fan
00:52:04 the fan where there's an exit means sorry if we go along to the right you can't actually cut off on this screen view if we go to the right of the bottom table
00:52:16 where you've got an x rather than a hundred percent yeah that's for environmental mode right so we're
00:52:24 so we're on that very bottom row would be environmental mode activated your main fans are off and your environmental fan is on i see
00:52:35 and your environmental fan is on i see and the reason that the roof fan is on in environmental mode not the the level two the environmental fan was a separate fan on the roof fan the same fan was
00:52:46 on the roof fan the same fan was utilized exactly for the environment that's our understanding so the lower level there were two fans and two different types of duct work
00:52:54 duct work and the system either had to opt for the environmental duct work and the fan or the smoke controlled ductwork and the fan yes
00:53:01 fan yes that's at low level whereas at the top it was the same fan same fun that was involved in both systems yeah yeah thank you
00:53:10 now you say in paragraph 22 of your first witness statement i don't think we need to pull it up that this document was used
00:53:16 was used towards the end of the commissioning process
00:53:19 process can you explain why that was because the initial days on site and the initial
00:53:26 initial two or three visits in february were taken up purely by connecting or not connecting but checking all the connections on the system
00:53:37 system that had been installed by others obviously yeah that everything was wired to the correct connections on the boards the correct panels all the batteries
00:53:48 the correct panels all the batteries and battery backup systems were connected up correctly so until the system was fully available for testing that's the point where we'd have probably started
00:53:59 point where we'd have probably started using this yeah and actually activating detectors on different levels yeah to make sure it did what it was supposed to do yeah so does that mean that you didn't
00:54:10 yeah so does that mean that you didn't actually use this chart until the april probably probably march the march yeah now i just want to ask you some some more detailed questions about this
00:54:21 more detailed questions about this cause-and-effect chart do you agree that this cause and effect chart doesn't state what device causes the activation of the fire zone you said that this shows you
00:54:32 fire zone you said that this shows you what happens when you're in the fire zone
00:54:34 zone as in the smoke control system's been activated
00:54:38 activated it does it tells you which smoke detector activates it on the extreme left-hand side
00:54:45 just show me where you're looking at if we could go to the extreme left hand go to the extreme left-hand side yeah and if you
00:54:57 go up to the upper sheet i think it says well it says it on both basically sde1 yeah then it says 26 then it says
00:55:09 yeah then it says 26 then it says well 25 whatever those are the smoke detectors in each of the lobbies are they yes yes but isn't it right
00:55:17 right that at grenfell tower the fire zone as you called it could be acted either by the smoke detector
00:55:24 detector or by the fire service yellow override switch
00:55:29 switch that could only be activated once the detectors the detector is the initial activation so the smoke detector on whichever level smoke is detected activates the system
00:55:42 smoke is detected activates the system once the system's activated the key switch on the hmi at ground level in the entrance way can be turned to fireman's override mode
00:55:54 to fireman's override mode so are you saying that you couldn't actually activate it straight off from the fireman's override mode no none of those key switches are active until after a fire has been detected
00:56:06 until after a fire has been detected through a small detector and the fireman's override key switch the master override at the hmi has been switched to the on position
00:56:16 position i see what about manually on the hmi panel we know there's this hmi panel human
00:56:22 human mechanical interface panel in the lobby at the ground floor of grenfell tower couldn't you manually activate the fire zone from that panel not until after a smoke detector had been activated
00:56:33 been activated and the key switch on that panel has been turned if once the smoke detector is activated it'll actually give you a visual message saying fireman's override
00:56:45 message saying fireman's override available
00:56:46 available yeah at which point you can turn that key and then you've got the ability to activate the key switches on each level one at a time if you wish to
00:56:57 if you wish to or activate venting from a level on the actual screens that then come up because then those screens are not available to you until after a fire has been detected
00:57:09 until after a fire has been detected and then you've turned the key switch and then the screen changes yeah and gives you more options including turning the system off yeah do you agree that all three of those methods though should be tested as part of the
00:57:21 should be tested as part of the commissioning process they were we tested every every detector on every level we tested every key switch on every level
00:57:33 every key switch on every level every pressure switch etc and then during the cause and effect testing we would have activated a detector on one level and then moved
00:57:45 a detector on one level and then moved it
00:57:45 it using key switches from level to level and then moved it again using the hmi screens from level to level
00:57:52 level yeah so we're proving that every smoke detector activates that level we're also proving or proved that every key switch can move it from a different level or if
00:58:03 can move it from a different level or if you wanted to use the hmi you could vent from a different level using the hpi but can you explain why the cause and effect chart doesn't go to that extra level
00:58:13 level and explain that the system needs to be tested
00:58:17 tested with all those other different types of activation as well
00:58:25 i can't explain that all i can say is it's because i know that that's how it works and when i when i do a demonstration to the customer i explain that to him yes can you
00:58:37 i explain that to him yes can you explain why the cause and effect chart doesn't include the functions and interactions of the hmi panel so as to ensure that any actions taken by the fire brigade on the hmi panel
00:58:48 by the fire brigade on the hmi panel in the event of a fire would provide the desired response i believe in the technical submission the hmi panel description and how it functions
00:58:59 functions is is there and it's also described during the demonstration to the fire service which it was described by me to the fire service on the day in april when we we did the
00:59:13 on the day in april when we we did the demo
00:59:13 demo yeah but can you explain why this cause and effect chart doesn't deal with the functions and interactions of the hmi panel it doesn't need to all that needs to do
00:59:24 it doesn't need to all that needs to do is tell me what should happen when a detector on that floor is activated the follow-up to that is the system design yeah so that's me then saying you know i'll turn that key switch and
00:59:36 you know i'll turn that key switch and activate fireman's the screen will tell you fireman's override available yep i'm going to suggest to you that there are some other absences from this chart do you agree that there's no
00:59:47 chart do you agree that there's no reference in the chart to the effects of a mains power failure
00:59:52 it's mentioned on item 7 backup fan standby fan and fault and then operation at speed set on table
01:00:04 and then operation at speed set on table again those items are also covered in the tech sub they're not the cause and effect is purely to say if smoke's detected on level 13
01:00:17 if smoke's detected on level 13 damper 27 and 28 whatever should open you know what i mean i think and the rest of it is part of the system design and tech sub so you'd have
01:00:28 system design and tech sub so you'd have to read the technical submission in combination with this in order to understand those extra um initially initially you've got to think on that obviously this is a guide for me
01:00:41 obviously this is a guide for me during commissioning to say if that happens this is what should happen yeah the other parts of it are my knowledge yeah and obviously i pass
01:00:53 my knowledge yeah and obviously i pass that knowledge on to the customer as as best possible you know
01:00:57 know and i give them the option to ask questions do whatever they want yeah what about the cause and effect chart dealing with a duty fan failure well as it says at the bottom if
01:01:08 failure well as it says at the bottom if the
01:01:09 the duty or if the main fan or standby fans fail
01:01:12 fail it'll switch over and again that's part of the
01:01:16 of the the commissioning sheet actually mentions it failure in one part we have to prove that if the power goes off the backup power supplies will come on
01:01:26 on which we did at both roof level and ground level because they had two different sets of panels so they had a primary and secondary supply at the
01:01:38 a primary and secondary supply at the roof
01:01:38 roof and one on the ground level as well yeah and we tested all of those with the system running yeah
01:01:47 looking at the chart as well do you agree that it doesn't state what dampers are intended to represent the north or the south dampers on a given floor if you just look at the the damper no
01:02:00 if you just look at the the damper no but that does they are referenced on the 800
01:02:04 800 so i'm cross-referencing different drawings and different sheets constantly i see so i know that sd 27 sd 28 if you were to then go to floor 13
01:02:16 if you were to then go to floor 13 sd 27 is probably south sd-28 probably north but if you look on the 800 drawing it will state that right but why doesn't this cause an effect chart to make that
01:02:27 this cause an effect chart to make that clear
01:02:27 clear exactly which damper is the north and which is the south so that you can be just very sure when you go to it that
01:02:34 it that you're checking the right one because they're both home at the same time so it wouldn't really matter the north and south shafts dampers operate simultaneously when a fire is detected on that
01:02:46 when a fire is detected on that particular level and in reality the only the only person that would want to know that initially would be me and that's why i use the 800 drawing
01:02:56 drawing in conjunction with the cause and effect when i'm testing the cause and effect i see thank you now looking at that chart about in relation to the fans in the bottom right hand corner
01:03:07 right hand corner we can see the columns relating to the fans and we've already discussed the fact that they say whether the fans are at 100 speed x which is which is not operating
01:03:19 x which is which is not operating off yeah now wasn't the system designed to be able to control the speed of the fans so that they could operate at lower levels not just 100 or nothing yes do you agree that there's
01:03:33 or nothing yes do you agree that there's no reference to a lower fan speed in the chart there's probably no reference because it itemizes the pressure switch changeover on number three uh and that
01:03:46 number three uh and that pressure switch changeover is based on whether the stair door to the lobby is open or closed and then the speed at which the fan runs at the lower speed can vary floor to floor so it's not a
01:03:58 can vary floor to floor so it's not a set you know it's not the fan will run at 50 percent in low speed
01:04:03 speed level 7 could be at 47. level 13 could be at 52.
01:04:08 be at 52. all of that set up in within the matrix on the hmi yes i appreciate it set up on the hmi but why don't we see any reflection of that in this cause and effect chart
01:04:19 effect chart in terms of the the potential for there to be different fan speeds at different phases
01:04:26 phases because until it's all set up at the end of the commissioning nobody would know what those speeds were floor by floor at low speed they were all very similar but there
01:04:37 they were all very similar but there were slight variations yeah on the 15th of april 2016 there were changes made to the programming of the system in environmental mode do you remember that yes do you agree that these ought to
01:04:48 yes do you agree that these ought to have been included in the cause and effect chart
01:04:52 potentially yes but again they're all in the matrix so if you look on the hmi into the matrix the all the speeds are there for you to look at and they're not they're not relevant to the fire brigade they wouldn't need to
01:05:04 the fire brigade they wouldn't need to see them
01:05:05 see them the only people that would need to see that matrix and his password protected for that reason would be the well me at commissioning and then any maintenance that were carried out on the system
01:05:17 carried out on the system a copy of that software with the full matrix is downloaded and stored back on the servers once commissioning's completed so at any time later if this information is lost
01:05:28 is lost it can be reloaded right i see and set to the commissioning values just finally on this cause and effect chart do you agree that it doesn't set out
01:05:38 out the three possible environmental mode scenarios for starting the system so there's three different scenarios for how the smoke control might start the system
01:05:48 system in environmental mode might be off and then the smoke control starts the system might be on standby and then the smoke control system starts or the environmental mode could be in
01:05:59 or the environmental mode could be in full operation and then the smoke control starts can we agree that now it doesn't show it but yes yes why does this cause an effect chart not
01:06:10 why does this cause an effect chart not show those three different starting points
01:06:13 points and wouldn't you need to test the smoke control system from each of those three different starting points because different things would have to happen in the system under each scenario do you agree with that yes and i did
01:06:25 that yes and i did well you say yes and i did but i'm asking you why the cause and effect chart
01:06:29 chart it doesn't deal with that it's not normally what's put on the cause in fact the cause and effect is is normally what detector or what fire zone activates the system
01:06:40 or what fire zone activates the system and then all the bits after that are relevant to the tech sub and the hmi it's not what we'd normally put on there because we don't want to over complicate it i mean that's a
01:06:52 it i mean that's a very complicated very busy spreadsheet just to tell you what's going to happen if there's a fire on one floor if we started adding everything else in it'd be five pages long yes and
01:07:04 it'd be five pages long yes and difficult to understand for somebody that don't understand well i understand that but can we agree and i think you yourself said this just a moment ago that actually it is important for this chart to be
01:07:15 is important for this chart to be entirely accurate even if complicated because the person maintaining the system would need to understand it so that they can do the right tests can we agree that potentially yes and can you explain why
01:07:28 potentially yes and can you explain why therefore
01:07:30 therefore an accurate cause and effect chart with with the full types of data that we've just been talking about including these different starting points wasn't provided for the benefit of those maintaining the system
01:07:43 maintaining the system as far as i'm aware there was a separate uh sheet issued for how the environmental system worked are you what flaws vented at what point
01:07:56 flaws vented at what point so that you know it and it's listed somewhere definitely i've seen it i see so you'd have to look at a separate sheet for how the environmental system worked to look at the different modes of it and
01:08:08 to look at the different modes of it and then but how would you know if you were maintaining this system that you ought to
01:08:12 to test it from the different modes of environmental operation because again it's in the tech sub that if the
01:08:19 if the as far as i'm aware it is the if the environmental system's operating then if there's a fire the environmental system shuts down it's locked out
01:08:30 system shuts down it's locked out and this system operates under fire mode as per cause and effect yes and it is in the text of our i know i've
01:08:38 i've and it describes which floors operate at the same time the environmental mode is also timed so you can set it to come on yes einstein nine in the morning till ten at
01:08:49 einstein nine in the morning till ten at night
01:08:50 night would you accept that this cause and effect matrix was over simplistic
01:08:58 because i understand how the system works it provides me with all the relevant information i need to commission it but for somebody maintaining the
01:09:09 it but for somebody maintaining the system
01:09:10 system do you think it provided them with everything that they needed to understand when they were testing the system subsequently well i would i would suggest that they company that we're maintaining it was
01:09:22 company that we're maintaining it was our company because we've got all the software we've got all the information i know the client's got a copy of it but they've also got a copy of the text up so all the relevant information regarding
01:09:34 regarding what happens if it's in fire mode and goes into environmental which it can't but if you know if it's been in fire mode you shut it down and reset it and environmental mode is
01:09:45 and reset it and environmental mode is activated it will go back into environmental mode yes i i understand that and i understand that what i think you're saying is ideally you would have psb maintaining the system so that that
01:09:56 maintaining the system so that that knowledge is carried forward but i mean how long was this system intended to last for i mean did you know that well there are certain rules and regulations and
01:10:08 regulations and approximately i mean how many years 15 years yeah and over that 15-year period you could get a number of different people maintaining it couldn't you so again can we agree that in order for those maintaining it
01:10:20 those maintaining it to understand all the tests that ought to be carried out to properly check the system
01:10:25 system perhaps this chart ought to have been more more developed it could be more developed but then if the people maintaining it were efficient at doing what they're doing it would be sufficient for them as well
01:10:36 would be sufficient for them as well i think combined with the tech sub and all the various drawings and documents yeah now can i just check um in paragraph 23 of your first witness statement that you say
01:10:47 statement that you say you were given a copy of the psb technical submission that's what you're calling the tech sub yes um were you provided um with revision six the final version from
01:10:58 from 15th of march 2016 when you were commissioning the system as far as i'm aware yes yes so you would have had that for your later visits would you
01:11:07 would you yes yeah every time we do a visit we check that we've got the latest revision of any drawings so 800 i'm also emailed all the latest
01:11:20 i'm also emailed all the latest revisions of any software which obviously i have to install so and i just basically checked that each time i do a visit i've got the latest revisions for any drawings
01:11:32 drawings yes thank you now ahead of attending grenfell tower for the first time on the 3rd of february 2016 did you have any concerns arising from the quality of the documentation that
01:11:43 the quality of the documentation that you'd been given well not really did you feel that you had enough information about the system to
01:11:50 to test and commission it properly yeah yeah yes thank you mr tim and i'm going to move on now and to look at something that's a good point i think that would be a good moment all right well
01:12:01 be a good moment all right well mr parker we have a short break during the morning and the afternoon and this is a good time at which to take it so we'll stop now we'll resume at half past 11 please and i have to ask you not to talk to
01:12:12 and i have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it no problem while you're out of the room all right okay thank you would you like to go to the usher then please okay
01:12:30 thank you how fast
01:29:37 yes would you ask us to part two to come back please
01:29:56 all right mr partner yes fine thank you carry on thank you yes mr strange yes thank you
01:30:01 thank you now i want to go at this point to the psb technical submission revision six this is the final version at psb 50214
01:30:12 so we can see um from the revision history that the final version was completed by david harrison he's the author dh
01:30:20 author dh on the 15th of march 2016. i think you just confirmed that you did have this prior to carrying out the visits to in the end of towards the end of your commissioning process is that right i would have had a copy
01:30:32 is that right i would have had a copy here yeah i wouldn't have had a paper copy i would have had it on well electronic yeah and if we look at page three
01:30:41 and go um under 1.1.2 at the bottom of the page
01:30:47 the page under the heading smoke control system we can see it says the final smoke control system has been designed to provide the existing stairwell
01:30:57 stairwell with protection from the ingress of smoke from a fire within a dwelling by means of a mechanical extract system do you see that there yeah now just pausing there according to your understanding as the
01:31:08 according to your understanding as the commissioning engineer to what extent was the system also intended
01:31:13 intended to protect the lobby itself from smoke in the event of a fire on that floor the the system the lobby systems are
01:31:24 the system the lobby systems are designed such that when the doors to the stair is closed there's a
01:31:29 there's a not
01:31:43 about available to 35 pascals yeah so even if that lobby fills with smoke the fans are running the dampers are open there's a negative pressure
01:31:53 pressure and the theory is that smoke can only flow from
01:31:57 flow from positive to negative it can flow the other way
01:32:01 other way so that should stop any smoke seeping out under the door into the stairwell yes when the apartment or whatever that's on fire
01:32:12 the apartment or whatever that's on fire when that door opens obviously even more smoke's going to come into the lobby yes but there's going to be some dilution because the fans are running yeah and you are pulling leakage air in
01:32:24 yeah and you are pulling leakage air in under the doors etc but within a very short period of time the stair door will be opened at the point that stair door is opened the differential and pressure
01:32:36 the differential and pressure is no longer available so the fans will ramp up to full speed in about 10 or 15 seconds from start to finish they'll be at full speed at that point then you're pulling cold
01:32:47 at that point then you're pulling cold fresh air in from the stairs into the lobby you mix mixing and diluting any hot gases or smoke and the apartment door which was opened
01:33:01 and the apartment door which was opened should have closed behind the people escaping
01:33:04 escaping from that apartment that was on fire yeah so the smoke from the apartment should be
01:33:09 should be reduced greatly because now the door's closed yeah the fans are now at full speed so you pull in
01:33:16 pull in a minimum of two meters a second velocity
01:33:20 velocity over that open door yeah into that lobby and the whole idea is that then dilutes the smoke calls the lobby down to some extent no
01:33:32 lobby down to some extent no no it's not going to take it back to outside air temperature by any means but it should take it to a tenable condition whereby firefighters can then also come into that lobby
01:33:43 that lobby and hopefully tackle that fire i see so i think
01:33:46 i think to answer my question in a brief way your your understanding was that the system was intended not only to protect the stare but also to provide some
01:33:58 the stare but also to provide some protection to the lobby itself is that correct
01:34:00 correct yes yeah now um if we read on within section 1.12 in the remainder of that first paragraph it says the system picking up in the second line the system
01:34:11 picking up in the second line the system has been designed to provide an average open door velocity across an open lobby stairwell door of two meters per second and then it said this velocity is in accordance with the recommendations for
01:34:22 accordance with the recommendations for a class b
01:34:23 a class b pressure differential system as defined in code of practice bsen12101 part six that's the specification for pressure differential systems [Applause]
01:34:35 [Applause] now um what was your understanding in very brief terms of what a class b pressure differential system was when you
01:34:45 you commissioned this system there is a a protected lobby system that meets two standards one meet at two meters a second when the doors open
01:34:57 second when the doors open velocity and an open door opening door force of less than 100 newtons
01:35:03 newtons yeah there are other bits and pieces but as i said this were a bit of an average system so
01:35:08 system so it was trying to achieve the pressure differential system yeah now if we look at paragraph 114 of your first statement on page 19
01:35:20 first statement on page 19 here you explain the overall design basis
01:35:24 basis for smoke control systems which you say you say the design basis for smoke control systems is well known and long standing
01:35:31 standing namely a fire starting in a single location being contained with a single compartment however some smoke will get into a common lobby from a fat fire in a flat so the system was intended to ventilate the common lobby
01:35:43 intended to ventilate the common lobby in order to control that smoke and so protect the common stairs in doing so some protection to that common lobby would also be provided this was explained during the demonstration
01:35:54 was explained during the demonstration now were you aware at the time you were commissioning the system that the lobbies at grenfell tower involved extended travel distances exceeding 7.5 meters for escape from the
01:36:05 exceeding 7.5 meters for escape from the furthest flat to the stair door no not really so that wasn't something you ever discussed with anybody that would have been something that would have been looked at design stage
01:36:17 would have been looked at design stage and as far as i was concerned it were a pressure differential system to protect the lobbying stairs yeah and we saw in the specification that the
01:36:28 and we saw in the specification that the open door velocity when the stairwell door was opened was meant to be two meters per second and did you understand that clearly at the time you were commissioning the system
01:36:37 system yes and were you familiar with the requirements of the british standard that's mentioned there one two 101 part six
01:36:45 six were you familiar with that british standard yes um had you read it at the time you commissioned the system
01:36:53 a couple three years before probably right not on a daily basis it's about 500 pages
01:36:59 500 pages yes no i i appreciate it's a long standard did you ever come to look at it during the time you were commissioning the grenfell system
01:37:07 system no no so to the extent you were aware of it you were relying on your your memory and what you'd read several years before is that fair
01:37:18 years before is that fair that and the fact that i was under the impression that it was a pressure differential system and we worked to the two standards open door velocity and opening door force yeah did you consider
01:37:30 opening door force yeah did you consider that that document was relevant to your commissioning work at grenfell tower it's relevant in respect of there's a set number of tests that have to be done
01:37:41 set number of tests that have to be done yes when you're commissioning which all of those were done yes so you didn't feel the need while you were doing those tests to or doing the tests that you did
01:37:52 tests to or doing the tests that you did to go back and consult that british standard and check that you were doing the tests correctly did you did that occur to you no because i don't
01:38:01 i don't numerous lobby systems that were exactly the same as this or as near as damn it the same in numerous buildings and
01:38:12 in numerous buildings and when the original when we did the first ones obviously yeah we we double check with systems but again it's something that it'll be done at design stage yeah rather than me and we've seen
01:38:24 yeah rather than me and we've seen what you've already mentioned that um one of the other performance criteria was that there needed to be a door opening force of not more than 100 newtons
01:38:32 newtons yes and did were you aware that that is one of the performance criteria in that british standard yes yeah and if we go to section 3 3 of the technical
01:38:45 if we go to section 3 3 of the technical submission again so this is psb 50214 page 18.
01:38:57 again and you've mentioned this before but we can see that um the system if we pick it up under that section that top section 3.3 mechanical control system
01:39:08 mechanical control system pick it up four lines down we can see in the middle of that line it says the system is designed to maintain -25 pascals in the lobby with all doors
01:39:21 pascals in the lobby with all doors closed
01:39:22 closed and we'll maintain the fans at low speed setting
01:39:25 setting once a door to the smoke affected lobby and only the smoke affected lobby the i think that should then read is opened the pressure differential will be lost and the fans will automatically
01:39:36 lost and the fans will automatically ramp up to full speed to extract air from the lobby at a rate which will provide an average force velocity of two meters per second across the open lobby stairwell
01:39:48 across the open lobby stairwell door
01:39:52 so it's right isn't it that when the system's pressure sensors um cause the fans to ramp up after the door opens they ramp up to their full 100 high speed setting yes
01:40:04 speed setting yes that's correct and if the door is then closed the stair door is closed and the pressure differential is restored
01:40:12 restored what speed would the fans then drop back to the predetermined speed that i'd set during commissioning and what predetermined speed did you set the it did vary slightly from lobby to
01:40:23 the it did vary slightly from lobby to lobby because the size of the lobby the leakage in the lobbies so the door fits etc can vary but they were all roughly between about they were all about the same and and if
01:40:35 they were all about the same and and if i said it was 50 it's a guess because i can't remember but they were all roughly the same and that that lower speed is the controlling factor in the door
01:40:46 is the controlling factor in the door opening force because the the faster the fans are running
01:40:51 running the higher that force yes so you have to see it's a very finely balanced match where you've got to make sure that the fans
01:41:00 the fans are running enough to maintain that negative pressure yeah but not running too fast to mean that the door force the door opening force is too high yeah so does it mean that that fan speed is
01:41:12 so does it mean that that fan speed is only something you can determine when you're doing the commissioning of the process and you're actually testing those two things yes and
01:41:22 yes and the level at which you set those fans on the lower speed that was entirely down to your judgment was it based on those two parameters the initial judgment yeah and and some of them have to be lowered slightly
01:41:33 them have to be lowered slightly somewhat to be lifted slightly and when you say initial judgment what do you mean by that from past experience we usually set the pressure switches between about 20
01:41:44 pressure switches between about 20 and 25 pascals but quite often have to turn it down a little bit the the pressure switch is a trigger point yeah it's the point at which we trigger these fans to go to low speed the next
01:41:55 fans to go to low speed the next main factor is the speed at which the fans continue to run
01:42:01 at that lower pressure to maintain that negative speed yeah if your fans are too slow
01:42:09 slow then you won't hold the pressure and the fans will start speeding up slowing down speed and up slowing down so the the leakage into the lobbies can affect that yeah and that and that's not something
01:42:21 yeah and that and that's not something you ever discuss with a designer at psb that actually what you should be setting the fans at once you've come back from site
01:42:28 site well that's done by experience right
01:42:32 now let's just turn to the psb commissioning method statement that we looked at earlier psb 50941
01:42:46 that's the method statement that we know you wrote under some time pressure as you've explained if we go to page five of it we can see there's a section
01:42:59 of it we can see there's a section four in the middle of the page called system description and then if we can go over the page to page six
01:43:11 page six if we look at the first three paragraphs of that it says the main extract fan will start and begin to extract at a reduced load to ensure that as people leave the lobby into the stairwell the pressure
01:43:22 into the stairwell the pressure differential between the lobby and stairwell doesn't exceed 50 pascals then as people leave the lobby the negative pressure equalizes within the stairwell airs drawn from the stairwell
01:43:33 stairwell the fan will vary in speed to maintain a pressure differential of approximately 45 pascals between the stairwell and the lobby
01:43:40 lobby when the stairwell door is closed last person escape there'll be no make-up air present
01:43:44 present and as the pressure differential pressure in the lobby increases the fan will slow down ensuring that the pressure differential between the stairway and the lobby doesn't exceed 50 pascals now can we agree there's a difference
01:43:55 now can we agree there's a difference therefore
01:43:57 therefore between this method statement and the psb technical submission because this method statement is specifying a bigger pressure differential than the 25 pascals in the psb technical submission
01:44:10 pascals in the psb technical submission the the 50 pascals is a figure that's derived from smoke controller station guidance and from the en1 to 101.6 it's a maximum it's not an operating
01:44:23 it's a maximum it's not an operating pressure
01:44:24 pressure the operating pressure differential is going to be what is derived from the opening force on the door so again there's there's two errors in
01:44:35 so again there's there's two errors in that
01:44:36 that the middle paragraph is an area it says there'll be 45 pascal's differential between the stairs and the lobby when the doors open but there won't be a differential no when the doors open it's the same
01:44:47 no when the doors open it's the same pressure
01:44:48 pressure but the the 50 pascals because it's mentioned in other documents it just gets referred to quite often yes i see
01:44:55 i see i i do unders i understand entirely that that 50 pascal figure um is in fact the figure that's suggested by the british standard 12101 part 6
01:45:06 part 6 and indeed as you said by other guidance documents and i appreciate it says that it shouldn't exceed 50 pascals but why doesn't it record in this method statement that the design
01:45:18 in this method statement that the design criteria the design performance criteria was
01:45:21 was set to achieve a pressure differential of 25 pascals can you explain that because until i actually set the pressures and the door forces it could be 50 pascals it's unlikely
01:45:34 it could be 50 pascals it's unlikely but it could be the door force is derived from a simple formula and it's pascal's an area so if a door is
01:45:42 is for these two meters square two meter square door area and you apply one pascal to it you'll get two noons yeah so if you play a hundred pack at 50
01:45:54 yeah so if you play a hundred pack at 50 pascals you get 100 noons yeah if it's got a door opener on it that's 20 noons you've already failed so it's never ever going to be 50 because 50 is a a nominal figure it's in a document but
01:46:05 a nominal figure it's in a document but would you ever go back after commissioning and explain what the pressure of differential was in a document yes i would i would tell them what it was set at
01:46:13 at you tell them verbally well yeah yeah where would you actually record that in the documentation that had probably come out in the final revision of the tech sub right and that's why there's a
01:46:24 tech sub right and that's why there's a difference because the majority of those lobbies were set at about 25 pascals some were 22 some were 23 25. but the average switching point 25 yes
01:46:36 but the average switching point 25 yes you see it it's right that isn't it that the technical submission maybe you don't know this but it was included in js wright's health and safety file for this job so that would be the project's
01:46:47 job so that would be the project's permanent record of the pressure difference so are you saying that the reason why we see 25 in that version 6 is because that was the final pressure differential that was come up with
01:46:58 was come up with what i set the pressure switches too yes i see so and regardless of what's said in this
01:47:02 in this method statement okay
01:47:11 now you said you said in paragraph 11 of your second statement that that there were errors in the plural in the method statement can you help us were there any other significant errors in the method
01:47:23 significant errors in the method statement
01:47:24 statement that you have spotted since well the the second paragraph on that where i think it actually says air is drawn in from the stairwell
01:47:35 from the stairwell and the difference would be 45 pascals well there wouldn't be a difference so that's just you shouldn't have said that yeah it's probably because as i said it was a modified version of a previous
01:47:48 it was a modified version of a previous method statement yeah and basically i'm going through it very quickly and trying to take out all the bits that are irrelevant and adding the correct bits back in right so are there any other
01:48:00 right so are there any other significant errors that you've you spotted in the method statement without reading it again now i can't remember
01:48:08 i think possibly part of the description is not quite right right um if we could go now to british standard en part 6. we find this at rbk3045054
01:48:24 part 6. we find this at rbk3045054 there is that british standard and i think you agree from what you said earlier but just to be clear that even though the system wasn't designed to be in complete compliance
01:48:37 designed to be in complete compliance with the systems identified in this british standard this does set out a methodology to test the criteria that you selected do you agree with that yeah yeah now if we go to section 14 of
01:48:51 yeah yeah now if we go to section 14 of this document first on page 75 this section provides guidance on how to document the commissioning process
01:49:04 now and and what the approving authority that would be building control should be provided with now and were you familiar with these requirements
01:49:15 familiar with these requirements yes i've read them several times
01:49:20 and um you we can see from the list it's full calculations showing the design criteria full specification details of the equipment used that's in b
01:49:31 equipment used that's in b and g is a complete maintenance schedule indicating the maintenance checks needed for each item of the equipment and frequency of the checks and then h on completion the results of the tests
01:49:43 h on completion the results of the tests carried out on the pressure differential system do you see that yeah and then if we can go to another british standard that's bs 7346 part eight this is a lak
01:49:55 7346 part eight this is a lak 50242
01:50:02 this is british stand a british standard called components for smoke control systems
01:50:08 systems and it's titled a code of practice for planning design installation commissioning and maintenance and you can take it from me that the smoke control association guide and refers primarily to this
01:50:21 guide and refers primarily to this british standard as the recognized code of practice for commissioning and acceptance testing of smoke control systems
01:50:29 systems now were you familiar with this british standard as well i have seen it yes had you read it before you attended grenfell tower in february 2016. no not before but prior to that
01:50:40 to that so you didn't read it immediately before how long prior to it would you imagine you read it possibly the last time that i looked at it for you know just information could
01:50:51 it for you know just information could have been six months or even a year and if we go to first to look at clause 8.1 on page 30 of it under commissioning we can see in
01:51:02 of it under commissioning we can see in the notes at the top it says the process of commissioning involves thorough testing of the installed smoke control equipment including interactions with other systems
01:51:11 systems and then under that the responsibility of the commissioning engineer is to verify that the system operates correctly
01:51:16 correctly in the manner designed and that the installation workmanship is of an adequate standard it is therefore necessary for the commissioning engineer to be provided with the agreed specification for the system
01:51:29 specification for the system now do you agree that this british standard re applied regardless of the specific performance requirements for the for the grenfell system probably yes so even if a system was not
01:51:42 probably yes so even if a system was not designed
01:51:43 designed to meet the requirements of certain british standards the components would still need to be uh tested and commissioned pursuant to this british standard
01:51:54 now is it right as we've just seen did were you aware that it sets out particular requirements for the person carrying out the commissioning so it's therefore necessary for the commissioning engineer to be provided
01:52:05 commissioning engineer to be provided with the agreed specification for the system
01:52:08 system and then if we look at clause 8.1.1 it says below that the system should be commissioned by a competent person c 8.1.2 who has access to the
01:52:19 c 8.1.2 who has access to the requirements of the designer either system specification and any other relevant documentation or drawings and then below that it says 8.1.2 the
01:52:30 and then below that it says 8.1.2 the person commissioning the smoke control system
01:52:32 system should possess at least a basic knowledge and understanding of the activities covered in clause 5 clause 6 and clause 7 that's of this british standard now if we can look at
01:52:44 british standard now if we can look at the contents page to see what five six and seven deal with that's at page three of this document
01:52:56 and if we go on and um below sorry no we can see it there that um section five deals with determining requirements for a smoke
01:53:09 determining requirements for a smoke control system section six is about planning and design and section seven is about system installation so would you agree that even if you were
01:53:21 so would you agree that even if you were not involved in the design and the installation process you needed to have at least a basic knowledge of those processes
01:53:28 processes in order to commission the system yes and
01:53:32 and the information that i'm given prior to commissioning such as all the drawings and documentation panel drawings control drawings and the tech sub
01:53:43 drawings and the tech sub as it is at the time is giving me that information yes i appreciate you've got that information on this specific system but in general terms how familiar were you with determining
01:53:55 how familiar were you with determining the requirements for a smoke control system with planning and designing a smoke control system and installing a remote control system well the planning and design of it would
01:54:06 well the planning and design of it would have been done by the designers the installation if we were in if our own installers were installing it then we'd have been controlling the install
01:54:17 install from day one the project manager would have been
01:54:20 have been checking that the install were carried out correctly in this case it was done by others uh
01:54:30 but it was checked it was checked by more than me other people went to site checked it yeah so the installation was checked uh and as far as i'm aware it was it was
01:54:41 and as far as i'm aware it was it was all okay yeah and as far as you're concerned you were a competent person under this guidance to be commissioning the system i would hope so yeah if we go to clause
01:54:52 i would hope so yeah if we go to clause 8.1.3
01:54:53 8.1.3 on page 30 of this um document this then lists particular requirements for inspection and testing so it says that commissioning
01:55:04 testing so it says that commissioning the entire system should be inspected and tested to ensure that it operates satisfactory and that in particular and you can see at b the agreed cause and effect requirements are correctly
01:55:15 and effect requirements are correctly implemented and the system is tested and responds to any planned method of initiation i'm not going to read all of them out but were you familiar with these requirements yes they're amongst the ones that are
01:55:27 yes they're amongst the ones that are also required in 12101 part 6. yes i see and over on page 31 the final requirement listed is for a commissioning system signed by a competent person
01:55:39 system signed by a competent person that's an m at the top of that page
01:55:44 now in your case do you consider that would be met by you providing such a certificate well we did issue a commissioning certificate to say that all the various component
01:55:56 to say that all the various component parts
01:55:57 parts had been tested yes according to the two standards that you've mentioned so yes
01:56:05 yes yes and then if we go to clause 8.1.3
01:56:12 um
01:56:19 sorry we've just got that sorry after m sorry go back back onto page 31.
01:56:27 yes after m we can see it says all results obtained during the commissioning process should be clearly recorded again did you understand that i understand it but the results i
01:56:38 i understand it but the results i recorded were the relevant results to door velocities door force and whether or not
01:56:47 or not component parts operated correctly i.e damper zoning and closing etc so all the items listed on the commissioning sheet is what i believe are relevant to the
01:56:58 is what i believe are relevant to the commissioning process i see but does that answer mean that there were some results that you took during the commissioning process that didn't then make its way into recorded documentation
01:57:13 not as far as i'm aware all the results that i recorded were all recorded and issued yes below that under documentation it then says on completion of the
01:57:24 it then says on completion of the certificate the following documentation should be provided to the relevant responsible person and a is the certificate for design installation and commissioning and then at b we can see an adequate
01:57:36 and then at b we can see an adequate operation and maintenance manual for the system providing infrared information specific to the system in question including a list of equipment provided in its configuration routine weekly and monthly testing of
01:57:48 routine weekly and monthly testing of the system by the user information about service and maintenance of the system etc um c
01:57:56 etc um c is as fitted drawings indicating but not limited to the positions of all control indicating power and supply equipment positions of all equipment that might require routine attention or replacement
01:58:07 require routine attention or replacement the type sizes and actual roots of the cables
01:58:11 cables and then d is a log book at the bottom of the page and e is a record of any agreed deviations from the original design specification now were you familiar with those requirements
01:58:22 familiar with those requirements yes and as far as i'm aware they were all acted upon okay now let's go to the smoke control association guide um this is the 2015 version at rbk402932
01:58:39 now just before we come on to the detail of this guide were you aware that on the 4th of may 2016 the rbkc building control officer mr hansen
01:58:50 mr hansen had sent psb this guidance this 2015 sca guidance and asked for the building control witnessing of the system to be done in accordance with section 9
01:59:02 with section 9 of this document were you ever made aware of that at the time it was sent probably no since then i've seen a document yes in your experience was it common for
01:59:15 in your experience was it common for building control to request compliance with the sca guidance during commissioning activity not normally no no that wouldn't normally be requested well we provide them with a
01:59:28 well we provide them with a commission in certificate a completion certificate and usually building control would have been there at witnessing yes which i understood at the time that
01:59:39 yes which i understood at the time that they were it was only after the event that i found out that weren't right yes we'll come on to that now section 9 of this sca guidance at page 59
01:59:51 it covers commissioning and acceptance testing
01:59:56 testing and has a list of actions in addition to those required by bsen12101 do you ever perhaps if we just look up up this
02:00:06 up this for the page before
02:00:11 yes so in this section of the sca guide this is section nine what it's doing is for different types of systems it's setting out what checks ought to be carried out as
02:00:22 what checks ought to be carried out as part of commissioning and acceptance testing and for pressure differential systems if we go back a page this is the list that the sca guide provides
02:00:33 provides and we can see that it includes operating each motorized damper this is the first bullet point by activation of the designed manual or automatic device
02:00:44 the designed manual or automatic device measuring fan performance we can say see it then says check that the fans operate at the same times as the opening of the dampers measure its performance and check against the design value and then check various changeovers
02:00:57 value and then check various changeovers relating to the standby fan and the secondary power supply etc so we can see that list
02:01:06 and we can see the sixth bullet point is checking the maximum forces required to open escape doors while the system is operating in means of escape mode and record results the recorded force must not exceed 100
02:01:18 the recorded force must not exceed 100 newtons
02:01:20 newtons um so can we agree that to ensure compliance with this sca guidance one would need to carry out these tests on top of any required by the
02:01:31 tests on top of any required by the british standards themselves all those tests were carried out okay so you did appreciate that at the time of the grenfell commissioning process yes did you actually look at the sca
02:01:42 yes did you actually look at the sca guide while you were doing the commissioning not that week but again it's it's a guide that i refer back to whenever i need to
02:01:49 need to and it probably it's been updated several times but you know
02:01:55 know the initial ones i think were 2011 then 14 and 15 whatever whenever there's an update comes out we get a copy and i'll read through it to see what's changed yeah now before we explore
02:02:08 yeah now before we explore the particular measurements that you took and the particular testing you did just in terms of the general process you followed and the key documents you produced as a result of the commissioning i've got some questions on that
02:02:19 that now paragraph 14 of your first statement we don't need to turn it up you explain that commissioning a smoke control system
02:02:25 system in a high-rise building is a two-person job is that correct it's generally it needs two people yeah yeah with one person checking the physical system is working on each floor while the other checks the
02:02:37 while the other checks the hmi panel on the ground floor is that correct
02:02:40 correct it's not just that it's two persons are required to carry out various checks i see but one of one of the ones which i highlight is the fact that when you are checking that dampers are
02:02:51 when you are checking that dampers are operating
02:02:54 operating whether it's from a smoke detector or from the hmi screen somebody's got to be on the actual floor yes to make sure it has opened and closed
02:03:02 closed yes they have and is it right that at grenfell tower you work with the assistance of someone called gary doyle who was a self-employed electrician who psb had used for a number of years that's correct
02:03:14 that's correct and to what extent was mr doyle actually involved in taking commissioning measurements himself he didn't really take any of the measurements he assisted me in taking them
02:03:23 them yeah and
02:03:29 yeah and i think as you've already explained uh this morning you said in your statement that initially or in your first statement initially due to the ongoing building work on the lower levels you were only able to test the system on
02:03:41 were only able to test the system on levels four to twenty three and you said you did this in the first two visits and in later visits you completed the commissioning of the whole system and is it correct that you therefore produced something
02:03:52 that you therefore produced something called an above ground commissioning report on the 26th of february 2016 for floors 4 to 23. yes i did
02:04:03 to 23. yes i did and you then produced the final commissioning report on the 28th of april 2016. is that correct it is yes and if we could go to paragraph eight of your second
02:04:14 second statement on page two
02:04:21 and we looked at this earlier you said that that
02:04:24 that that interim report the above ground commissioning report was not intended to be used as evidence that the system was fully or partially commissioned it just demonstrated that certain elements of the system had been tested and were working
02:04:36 tested and were working rather than being able to say they were commissioned now was it usual to test a system in parts like that no were you
02:04:47 no were you happy to be completing a partial report or did you have concerns about doing it in that way [Music]
02:04:53 [Music] because of the way the building changes were progressing it made it possible from level 4 to 23
02:05:05 made it possible from level 4 to 23 to at least prove that switches were working dampers were working smoke detectors were working there's also a lot of work involved in powering the system up because it's all electronic cards etc
02:05:18 because it's all electronic cards etc our stations you can't just switch the power on you've got to do a lot of dead testing it's called basically where you're testing every single wire to make sure it leaves the right place
02:05:29 to make sure it leaves the right place and arrives at the right place so that when you do start applying power onto
02:05:33 onto all the various parts of the system basically you don't blow it up yeah so it's it's a bit of a it's a long drawn out procedure
02:05:45 it's a long drawn out procedure but by being able to go on site on at the beginning of feb or whenever it was and looking at the flaws that were complete electrically and mechanically
02:05:57 electrically and mechanically yes we were able to prove that things worked
02:06:00 worked yeah yeah that's only operational it's not cause and effect it's not volumes
02:06:07 volumes it's just purely operational yeah and i think you
02:06:11 think you um have explained earlier and we've seen it in some emails i don't think we need to go to them in fact that you were asked in december 2015 whether there was a way of getting the system up and running before christmas
02:06:23 system up and running before christmas do you remember that i do yes and your response was it's not possible to operate any part of the system without applying the power and if this is done without fully testing the system then damage to the
02:06:35 testing the system then damage to the cards is possible do you remember that yeah now do you remember was the tmo or ryden
02:06:41 ryden pressing psb to make the system available for use prior to the full commissioning being completed oh yeah probably when you say yeah probably
02:06:51 probably you actually recall that that's what they were doing yeah because even when i made the first visits in february they wanted the system to be like a working system with only you know with three or four
02:07:02 with only you know with three or four levels not even complete you just don't work yeah you can't do that no
02:07:07 that no and did you ever take any shortcuts as a result of the the pressure that was being applied no no they can apply as much pressure as they like don't change what i do now a paragraph 16 of your first
02:07:19 now a paragraph 16 of your first statement on page four you say i cannot recall exactly what i
02:07:30 you say i cannot recall exactly what i did during each visit to grenfell tower but i use the same essential step-by-step process process i always use when commissioning a smoke control system now was that step-by-step process one
02:07:43 now was that step-by-step process one that you'd actually drawn from guidance documents or was that just based on your own experience it's a combination of guidance documentation uh training from the company's
02:07:55 uh training from the company's previous and present smoke control specialists who who do understand this guidance fully
02:08:02 fully every word of it and and combining that with my electrical and mechanical background to ensure that we tested all the component parts of the system safely and
02:08:13 component parts of the system safely and correctly
02:08:13 correctly yes now did you keep a day book or other written notes yourself when you were doing the testing most of my notes and jottings down are usually on back of drawings
02:08:25 back of drawings which you know once it's done they've got footprints on them coffee stains and everything but i don't need to because i'm until i actually take all the final readings the 800 drum for example when you're
02:08:37 the 800 drum for example when you're commissioning the system and you're testing each piece once i've tested the damper and proved that it fully opens fully closes when you tell it to a ticket so i know i've tested that one damper
02:08:48 i've tested that one damper and that applies to every part on every level throughout that building and until every little one has got a ticket side of it that's when i know i've actually completed everything yeah
02:08:59 completed everything yeah and if we can look at paragraph 21 of your second statement on page four
02:09:12 you say um
02:09:15 we'll come back to the the door readings in due course which you're dealing with in the first sentence you say that you didn't retain the 10 to 12 individual readings for each door
02:09:25 each door as the average figure was the only one that had to be formally recorded for commissioning purposes then you say i normally dispose of my working notes a short time after a job has finished after my work at grenfell tower had
02:09:36 after my work at grenfell tower had finished but before the fire occurred i disposed of my working notes which contained the individual readings for each floor each door i beg your pardon each door thank you
02:09:47 so just to be clear were all your working notes disposed of in that way they weren't they're not they're not working notes in the sense that i have a diary or a day-to-day notebook
02:09:58 day-to-day notebook uh as i said i use the actual drawings as
02:10:02 as a tick sheet and then when i'm taking readings i might write things down on level 11.
02:10:08 level 11. the the readings that we take on a door the
02:10:12 the vein nanometer that we used for that is such that you can you can select a test so we'll call it test one and then
02:10:22 then you move across the door several times and down the door and each time when it settles you press a button
02:10:29 a button and then you go to what's called the next step is data and it will give you the lowest reading the highest reading and the average within its software it
02:10:40 and the average within its software it disregards the lowest in ies i see yes and calculates the average and that's the figure that i would have written down yes thank you and i'm going to come back to each of the individual tests in a moment
02:10:50 moment so you will get the chance to explain for each one what you actually recorded and then what gets written down um was it psb's general policy to dispose of notes taken during
02:11:02 dispose of notes taken during commissioning was that your understanding of it's not it it's not a case of disposing of no's
02:11:08 of no's you know it's a case of once the baltimore car got full i had to take some paperwork out any drawings or relevant documents that needed
02:11:18 needed registering on the server would have been emailed in and then any changes to drawings we redline them so that the as built drawings that are issued would have had any updated bits on such as a connection change or
02:11:31 bits on such as a connection change or anything like that in a now station yeah because this job went how it did over a lot of days all those were done as
02:11:39 as and when yes so you know i tell them you need to update this out station because now on x3 and x4 you've got this that we're done those sheets would have
02:11:50 that we're done those sheets would have then been
02:11:51 then been sent back to me for printing off and put in the out station yeah so everything were kept up today as progress went along yes i understand now in your first statement if we just
02:12:03 now in your first statement if we just look at it at paragraph 139 at page 23
02:12:16 you described there the reports that you produced
02:12:20 produced and and you talk about the above ground commissioning report um and then we know there was a final commissioning report sorry this is paragraph 140 is
02:12:31 report sorry this is paragraph 140 is actually the paragraph um you say you completed two commissioning reports the above ground commissioning report february 16 um the above ground commissioning report april 2016.
02:12:42 april 2016. um and then that we know you produced the completion certificate on the third of may 2016. and it's right isn't it that psb also provided an operation and maintenance
02:12:53 provided an operation and maintenance manual and a testing and maintenance schedule is that correct they normally do yes yes [Applause] now if we go to page four of the commissioning
02:13:04 commissioning uh report this is the 28th of april 2016 commissioning report at psb five zeros two two four i see that let's just bring up that document psb502
02:13:18 this is the psb above ground commissioning report from the 28th of april 2016 and we can see your name there now if we look at page four of this
02:13:32 now if we look at page four of this we see a section for fire service override switch do you see that there yeah and the report
02:13:43 report under underneath that title fire service override it says check functionality of the fire service override switch and in the box saying installed it says yes
02:13:54 yes and tested it says yes now if we look at paragraph 38 of your first statement on page seven
02:14:12 of your first statement on page seven you you say here i operated the fireman's override switch using the key to check that it would work mechanically i also checked to make sure it was connected to the correct connector on the out station so you say that
02:14:25 on the out station so you say that you're telling us there what you actually did did you do that for all the firefighters override switches in the building yes that reference on that sheet to the
02:14:37 that reference on that sheet to the fireman's
02:14:38 fireman's override switch is the master override on the hmi this references to the fire overrides on each level i see so is it somewhere recorded in the commissioning report
02:14:50 commissioning report what the test of each separate fireman's override
02:14:53 override switch on each level that they were each tested
02:14:57 tested i see thank you and if we go back to page three of the commissioning report
02:15:05 this is at psb 50224 page 3. at the bottom of that page
02:15:12 in the larger table at the bottom we can see that for pressure switches
02:15:19 that this is three kind of three items down
02:15:23 down it says pressure switch ps01 to ps24 is it right that the only information in the commissioning report is that in respect of the pressure switches
02:15:35 respect of the pressure switches we've got auto operate okay so that it operates okay um and then damage okay and then
02:15:47 um and then damage okay and then pass yes do you see that there yes now if we look at paragraph 39 of your witness statement
02:15:58 on page eight
02:16:02 you tell us in your statement you said i checked that the pressure switch was mounted in the correct area in the staircase and lobby and that it activated if the air resistance changed i did this by sucking air through a
02:16:13 i did this by sucking air through a piece of plastic pipe which i attached to the static tube which formed part of the pressure switch i checked to make sure it was connected to the connect connector on the out station
02:16:22 station i also set the pressure switch to 25 pa at this stage now do you accept that you're giving us a lot more information in your witness statement than you gave in the commissioning report
02:16:33 commissioning report well in the commissioning report it says pressure switches 1 to 24 if that's where it were and then it says operate okay in other words
02:16:42 words when the pressure changed did the switch operate
02:16:45 operate the answer is okay to all those 24 switches
02:16:49 switches right and there was no damage to any of the pipe work or the switches or the boxes that they held in and that it passed and that references to
02:16:59 to pso 1 to ps24 it's a bit you know i could have written pso one next line pso2 next line but again this was a document that they wanted the following day
02:17:11 wanted the following day basically um does that mean that you provided less detail in the report than you normally would in a commissioning report are provided about the same this
02:17:23 are provided about the same this probably less detail in respect of itemizing each item yes so a line
02:17:27 a line per item i clustered them together said pressure switches 1-24 yes in one column yeah i appreciate one possibility you could split those all out but also
02:17:38 out but also in paragraph 39 is it fair to say that you're explaining that you've done different checks of the pressure switches and that's not explained in your ma in your commissioning report
02:17:49 in your ma in your commissioning report so
02:17:50 so you said you correct you've checked that it was mounted in the correct area that it activated if the air resistance changed and you've given the methodology by which you've done that you've checked to make sure it was connected to the correct connector on
02:18:02 connected to the correct connector on the out station and you've set the pressure switch so there's a number of steps why aren't those steps all recorded in your commissioning report it's just the to the best of my
02:18:13 it's just the to the best of my knowledge that commissioning report is an outline report to what we've tested and that we've tested it and it functioned correctly it's not a detailed check you know what
02:18:24 it's not a detailed check you know what i mean so
02:18:25 i mean so that's telling you what i did on each pressure switch the report's just saying that each pressure switch was tested yes and the test is all of that basically
02:18:34 basically along with other things such as like when the fans are running and the door opens do the pressure switch activate and the fan speed up when the door closes does it slow down etc yes it's just that
02:18:47 does it slow down etc yes it's just that wouldn't it have been helpful for those people
02:18:49 people looking at your commissioning report in the future to know precisely what type of checks you've done for example here for the pressure switches
02:18:58 switches potentially yes but as i say for purposes of me commissioning the installation i know what checks have got to be done and i carry them out yes and i did carry them out now let's
02:19:10 yes and i did carry them out now let's look at the particular measurements you took
02:19:12 took of the system in more detail and you've told us that you were familiar with um bsen12101 part six which provides guidance on
02:19:24 six which provides guidance on acceptance testing and various acceptance testing stages yes you were familiar with that yeah and that's in section 12 of that british standard if we could bring that up
02:19:37 rbk3045054 at page 72.
02:19:47 so here we've got um in this british standard acceptance testing for pressure differential systems and it's right isn't it that in
02:19:58 systems and it's right isn't it that in section 12 these acceptance tests are different stages that must be undertaken it undertaken when commissioning a smoke control system of this nature yeah and if we look at section 12 each
02:20:11 yeah and if we look at section 12 each stage has instructions on how to do the test
02:20:14 test and the criteria that the system must meet yes
02:20:19 meet yes now let's start with the first acceptance test that's a pressure differential test this is
02:20:26 is um you can see that there at 12.2.1
02:20:33 now looking at the test it says that the first acceptance test should be carried out to establish pressure differential due to wind and stack effect
02:20:42 effect with pressure differential fans switched off so this appears to be can we agree like a baseline check to see what the pressure differential is between the different areas so here it would be stare and stare and lobby yes
02:20:58 stare and lobby yes so it says initiate the pressure differential system operation allow fans to operate for at least 10 minutes to establish steady air temperatures switch off the pressure differential fan
02:21:09 switch off the pressure differential fan system fans leaving all other components in their
02:21:11 in their operation mode measure the pressure differential between the pressurized space and the relevant accommodation measure the pressure differential between the staircase that's to be pressurized and the relevant
02:21:22 pressurized and the relevant accommodation on at least two stories these readings should be taken using a calibrated manometer with the appropriate tube connectors and then it says the pressure differential measured relative to the
02:21:34 differential measured relative to the first acceptance test shall comply with the minimum values indicated in figures 2 3 4
02:21:39 2 3 4 five six and seven now was this a process that you followed did you run the systems fans for ten minutes and then take those test measurements with the fans probably
02:21:51 test measurements with the fans probably on the second visit in february and we probably did it on level
02:21:56 level 4 roundabout 10 16 and the top most level we did exactly that
02:22:03 that and i had a dpm meter which is a differential pressure meter and basically check to the difference between the lobby pressure and the stairwell pressure and with the
02:22:15 and the stairwell pressure and with the fans off the one one right in fact when we tried the airflows on the lower floors we've got a slight airflow on the north shaft nothing on the south and on the upper
02:22:27 nothing on the south and on the upper floors we've got a reversed airflow yes and and just to be clear this talks about
02:22:33 about the relevant accommodation as being the um
02:22:37 um one of the test areas in grenfell that would have been the lobby wouldn't it that you were comparing that's what i was comparing the lobby not the actual accommodation of the lobby because obviously
02:22:47 obviously it's difficult with people living in them yeah
02:22:50 them yeah and if we look at clause 12.2 um the note yes sorry so under 12.2 acceptance test requirements at the top of that page we
02:23:02 requirements at the top of that page we can see the note says in buildings higher than eight stories the tests specified in 12.2.1 and 12.2.2 should be carried out in groups of eight floors
02:23:15 floors now at grenfell tower there were 24 floors
02:23:18 floors do you agree that this standard therefore required this procedure to be carried out at least three times with floors assessed in groups of eight we did do yes put in we did you did that
02:23:29 we did do yes put in we did you did that yeah
02:23:29 yeah i did it on four somewhat like about 11 16 and then the the top floor 23 and then afterwards we also did a test
02:23:41 and then afterwards we also did a test on ground
02:23:42 on ground for the same test basically but we never tested between the lobbies and the accommodation no the flats because obviously so you did this test of putting the fans on turning them off and
02:23:54 putting the fans on turning them off and and seeing what the pressure differential was several times on a selection of floors several times yes do you agree that there's no record anywhere within the commissioning
02:24:05 anywhere within the commissioning documents of any pressure testing no there isn't one of the dead we did we when we actually run the system and
02:24:16 when we actually run the system and tested the door opening force max fordham's
02:24:20 fordham's consultant asked us to measure the differential between the stairs and the lobby
02:24:24 lobby and we got on average we did it on several floors this is with the system running and we got between 30 and 35 pascals okay but but can you
02:24:35 30 and 35 pascals okay but but can you explain
02:24:36 explain why there's no record in the commissioning documents of any any pressure testing having been carried out because the only two tests that we recorded
02:24:48 recorded was the door opening force and the open door velocity we still took the readings to see what we were getting because that's your baseline
02:24:58 baseline so i i do a door opening force with no fans on
02:25:01 fans on to see what we got we just the door closer
02:25:05 closer but i think the suggestion may be the spot though that you ought to have regardless of the readings i fully agree yes and i'm sure in future or once these
02:25:17 and i'm sure in future or once these things have been done i'm sure that will happen
02:25:20 happen yes thank you that's helpful and if we look at paragraph 24 of your second statement page four i think you're just describing um what you're describing here is what
02:25:34 um what you're describing here is what you were just describing um
02:25:43 yeah yeah we did that on every level yes so
02:25:46 so 23 i think is the paragraph you say prior to the final commissioning in april 2016. i did this by setting the pressure switch to switches to the required level on each floor and judging
02:25:57 required level on each floor and judging the door opening force based on my experience etc um and
02:26:05 um and you tell us sorry i think that's a wrong reference but somewhere in your statement you do say that you prior to the final commissioning you check the pressure differential in the common lobby door yeah using a pressure
02:26:16 common lobby door yeah using a pressure differential monitor the next next next part down 24.
02:26:25 yes i see um now was the system running when you took those readings on those readings yes it was yes so it wasn't following the
02:26:36 wasn't following the no the british state well it's both because you've got to do you've got to have a differential pressure
02:26:44 pressure within the lobby to the stairs yes and it's got to be an acceptable level but that level is derived by the door owning force but the actual levels we were getting varied between about 28 and 33 pascals
02:26:57 varied between about 28 and 33 pascals differential pressure yes and the average door opener if you're interested we're about 12 knots invaried
02:27:08 12 knots invaried so that's what control what pressure we could apply yes now if we look at paragraph 24 of your first witness statement on page five
02:27:19 here we can see that when you you tell us that when you commission a system that you take with a with you a multimeter for measuring basic electrical test voltage etc a calibrated
02:27:31 voltage etc a calibrated anemometer used for measuring airflow speed basic electrical tools a set of two-way radios do you take a calibrated device for taking pressure
02:27:42 calibrated device for taking pressure differential readings with you not on the first visits no because we wouldn't have anything set up to measure at that point probably from the second visit and the second and maybe even the final visit
02:27:54 second and maybe even the final visit well the final visit definitely had the dpm movement i see so because here this paragraph seems to be suggesting that it's summarizing all the equipment you take when you're commissioning that's
02:28:05 when you're commissioning that's probably
02:28:06 probably 30 to what i take with me i see okay i can only carry so much on tube yeah now the second acceptance test is called the net pressure differential
02:28:17 called the net pressure differential test
02:28:18 test we can see that at clause 12.2.2 at page 72 of the british standard if we go back to that rbk
02:28:28 [Music] so within 15 minutes having completed the requirements of 12.2.1 the first pressure differential test the second acceptance test shall be to measure the net pressure differential
02:28:40 measure the net pressure differential across each door separating a pressurized and unpressurized space with to the relevant accommodation on all floors with the pressure differential system running and then over the page
02:28:53 the change in measurement between the first and second pressure readings shall be compared with the performance requirements specified for the design pressure differences do you see that there i do yeah now were
02:29:04 you see that there i do yeah now were you familiar with that test i have read it previously and we did did the first and second parts but not within 15 minutes of each other that was my next question so this
02:29:15 that was my next question so this standard would requires you to do it within 15 minutes of the first test you're saying that you didn't do that you did them on separate occasions is that correct we did them on more than one occasion but yes
02:29:27 but yes now can we agree that it requires measuring the net pressure differential across
02:29:31 across each door between a pressurized and unpressurized space to the relevant accommodation on all floor levels with the pressure differential system running i think if we go back a page and
02:29:42 running i think if we go back a page and look at
02:29:43 look at the first part of what it said
02:29:49 across each door separating a pressurized and unpressurized space on all floor levels with the pressure differential system running now i think you've explained that you just did it on a sample
02:30:01 just did it on a sample number of floors is that correct the pressure differential the initial test with the fans off dampers open we did on at least four levels starting at lower
02:30:12 at least four levels starting at lower level
02:30:14 level a quarter way up three quarts away up on top
02:30:17 top the second acceptance test which admittedly we didn't do after 15 minutes because we couldn't at the time because not all floors were available yes but we did do the pressure differential across
02:30:28 differential across every door on every floor right with the fans running but we don't see any results of that set out in the commissioning documents do we no no the we did record the pressure
02:30:40 no no the we did record the pressure differential during the room testing because that was max fordham's request to have a copy of those numbers which we did supply or
02:30:54 which we did supply or js rights took the readings down that i gave
02:30:58 gave js rights also with the spring test took the door force readings and wrote them down
02:31:05 down yes i'm coming to the door force readings in a moment but um do you accept that if you've been following this guidance we ought to have seen
02:31:13 seen all the results of that pressure differential testing on on each floor the net pressure differential test that you said you did in the commissioning report yes
02:31:29 in the commissioning report yes yes now um the third acceptance test if we look at page 73 of the british standard so the next page is called the air velocity test
02:31:41 is called the air velocity test it says the third acceptance test shall measure the air velocity through an open door separating a pressurized in an unpressurized space and she'll comply with the requirements in clause 4 for the appropriate class of
02:31:52 in clause 4 for the appropriate class of system
02:31:53 system the test should be carried out as follows and then it sets out a procedure
02:32:02 now it it's right isn't it that this testing
02:32:07 testing is against the open door criteria in clause 4.3.1 of the standard
02:32:15 we can see that from clause 12.2.3.3 in that section so 12.2.3 it says the measurement of flow velocity
02:32:27 it says the measurement of flow velocity through the relevant doors shall be taken with all other doors open or closed
02:32:33 or closed in accordance with the appropriate class of system described in clause four the doorway shall be clear of instructions and then you're to see figures
02:32:41 figures two three four five six and seven regarding the relevant door
02:32:47 now did you understand that that door reading needed to be taken with a combination of other doors open on the type of system that's installed
02:32:59 on the type of system that's installed the only door that you need to have open and that would have any effect on the system
02:33:04 system is the door on the fire floor opening the door on any other level would have no effect on the system at all
02:33:12 so if you open the door on the level above in a level below because you're not extracting dead air from those areas you're not changing the pressure so the only level that's got a change in
02:33:24 so the only level that's got a change in pressure or volume velocity is the one where the dampers are open
02:33:29 are open and the fans are sucking air out from yes i see
02:33:32 yes i see but let's look at the doors that have to be open
02:33:35 be open we find that on page 20 in section 4 of this guidance
02:33:45 this under 4.3.2 4.3.2.2 we can see it says there the air supply should be sufficient to maintain a minimum flow of two meters per second through the open door
02:33:56 per second through the open door between the lobby and the accommodation at the fire affected story with all of the following doors open between
02:34:02 between an a the stair in the lobby on the fire reflected story the stair and the lobby on an adjacent story the fire fighting lift shaft and the lobby on the adjacent story the stair and the external air at the fire service
02:34:13 and the external air at the fire service access level and the air release path on the fire floor is open now i appreciate the point you're making i think is that the design was only intended to ever
02:34:24 the design was only intended to ever have one door open that's the stair door yes part of that that you're reading there is from a pressurized system well this is for a pressure diff a class b
02:34:35 pressure diff a class b pressure differential system and we understand the airflow rate of two meters per second to come from this part of this british standard
02:34:46 standard um when he gave evidence on on last week to the inquiry mr hansen the building control officer said that his expectation was that psb would be testing
02:34:57 be testing as part of the commissioning process with other doors open or closed in accordance with this british standard he he said this he said the technical submittal proposed the two meters a
02:35:09 submittal proposed the two meters a second air flow test in accordance with this standard so my expectation is that it would be tested in accordance with this test procedure and opening and closing the relevant doors to the class b system
02:35:21 doors to the class b system so that's clearly stated in the technical submittal now i think what you're telling us is that when you were testing the airflow through the open door
02:35:32 door you didn't do it with other open doors that wasn't ever part of your commissioning process is that right we didn't no but opening the door below or above the
02:35:43 but opening the door below or above the story where the fire is would not change the velocity on the door that was open because you haven't got any fans acting on that level and this is this is talking what you're
02:35:55 and this is this is talking what you're talking there is looking at differential pressures
02:35:58 pressures so if you did open doors on other levels you wouldn't create a differential pressure
02:36:03 pressure and even if you opened the doors on the level that was supposedly on fire there wouldn't be a differential pressure
02:36:11 has helped my understanding yes um is are you putting it to mr partly that the effect of opening doors on the
02:36:19 on the doors between the stairs and the lobby one floor above and one full below would in fact
02:36:24 in fact affect the velocity through the fire floor door well i'm certainly putting it to him that under this is so wide because i don't understand if this standard it should have been checked that's what that's what i'm
02:36:35 checked that's what that's what i'm putting to him well i know that and his answer is it wouldn't have made any difference and i'm just wondering whether you're inviting him to rethink that or not to accept that
02:36:46 to rethink that or not to accept that and if so i would like to understand why because at the moment i can't see it either i appreciate that and it may be that you we need to ask that question of our expert in due course
02:36:57 expert in due course um i can't i can't put a positive case that
02:37:01 that opening particular doors um certainly on the on the on the five floor opening the flat door and the stair door my understanding is that potentially would
02:37:13 is that potentially would that would that would create a difference you accept that yes oh yeah definitely but we couldn't open accommodation doors if you want to call them that to the flats because you can't knock on somebody's don't say can i open your door please
02:37:25 don't say can i open your door please although it did happen whilst we were testing fans somebody would come out to find out what was all the noise were about and all it would do is basically suck air out of that room
02:37:37 air out of that room yes for a few seconds i just didn't quite understand no i think the more nuanced position about um
02:37:46 about um say a stair door above or below and whether that could affect the the the pressure across that sorry the airflow across that door um i'm not going to answer that question
02:37:59 um i'm not going to answer that question um but i but i do understand um that it is accepted that once a flat door is open as well as the stair door then
02:38:09 then potentially that does affect whether you can maintain two meters per second yes it would do well it would unless uh there was broken windows or something
02:38:21 uh there was broken windows or something like that
02:38:22 like that you would pull somewhere from the flat and
02:38:25 and the air will take the easiest path which should be through the stair
02:38:31 yes thank you
02:38:35 but just to be absolutely clear your commissioning process checked the the air velocity of that stair door when just the stair door was open and all other doors were closed
02:38:47 all other doors were closed yes thank you
02:39:02 um were you aware that the test if we go back to page 73 this door velocity
02:39:10 velocity test sorry airflow test if you look at 12.2.3.4 do you see there it says that you have
02:39:21 do you see there it says that you have to take at least eight measurements uniformly distributed over the doorway to establish an accurate air velocity calculate the mean of these measurements or alternatively move an appropriate
02:39:32 or alternatively move an appropriate measuring device steadily over the cross section of the open door and record the average air velocity now did you do that yes
02:39:43 now did you do that yes as i said earlier the anonymity we use is a vein nanometer you've got two or three buttons on the front of it you can press one of the buttons scroll down and it says select test
02:39:54 test so you'll select test and it will say test one
02:39:58 test one there's a you scroll down again there's another
02:40:01 another tape measurement so you select it you put the vane illinois in front of the door you press the button
02:40:08 button and you put a predetermined time in say three seconds and after three seconds it will record a static number it's not flashing that static number is the average velocity during that
02:40:20 is the average velocity during that three seconds you then move it across and press it again it'll do the same again yes and you do it again and we probably do that on an open door two meters high 12 times
02:40:29 12 times yes we'll do it there there there there at bottom yes you then end test and when you go in then it'll say data
02:40:40 and when you go in then it'll say data and it'll give you the highest velocity and it'll give you the lowest yes and it'll give you the average yes and that's from 12 readings yeah so it discards the highest and the lowest
02:40:52 highest and the lowest and takes the average of the remaining 10. yeah and it gives you that figure and that's the figure that i wrote down i see and so yeah it's that average that we see recorded in the commissioning
02:41:03 we see recorded in the commissioning report yes that's the average based on the anenometer itself yes that's helpful can i just look at um your what you said in your witness statements about this
02:41:14 in your witness statements about this um if we could go to paragraph 106 of your first statement at page 18
02:41:23 you say here in this part of your statement i took airflow readings using an animometer is that how you say it anemometer motor whatever from the top
02:41:36 motor whatever from the top middle and bottom of each door on each level
02:41:39 level when the system was operating in smoke control mode the readings i recorded were an average figure of the readings taken from around the door
02:41:49 the door now do you see that written like that it it sounds like you've just taken three readings top middle bottom yeah no it's it's it's not a very
02:42:00 yeah no it's it's it's not a very accurate statement but i can assure you we took
02:42:02 we took the minimum required probably two more you take three readings left hand center and right hand side at door in at least three positions so if we did
02:42:13 in at least three positions so if we did top middle and bottom that'd be nine but we'd probably do more than that we split it into four quadrants i see and if we look at paragraphs 20 and 21 of your second witness statement
02:42:24 and 21 of your second witness statement on page four
02:42:29 you say there the open air flow velocity readings in smoke control mode were taken using an anemometer by taking a number of airflow readings
02:42:39 readings normally between 10 and 12 from different locations across and up and down the common lobby door on each floor i made a note of the readings and used them to calculate the average reading for each door i recorded the average readings in
02:42:51 i recorded the average readings in column two so um i think that is more consistent with what you're saying happened is that right yeah we we had probably three different types of anenometer
02:43:03 anenometer two of which did self calculations so they were the easy ones one which you had to actually write them all down and we used to have a grid pattern that we use for ventilators for doors etc
02:43:16 for ventilators for doors etc and we and that pattern is nine minimum and that's what we used to use when i even after this statement when i looked back at the as i found a document with the
02:43:27 as i found a document with the anenometer certification for the calibration and the one that i used is the one that does the
02:43:34 the automatic summation of the readings yes i understand
02:43:42 um and you say i did not retain the 10 to 12 individual readings for each doors the average figure was the only one that had to be formally recorded for commissioning purposes where do you get that from that you only actually
02:43:53 get that from that you only actually have to record the average why didn't you
02:43:56 you formally record the different readings you took and then explain that it was an average or you know why isn't that well the the readings were actually within the software of the anemometer so you can and unfortunately the laptop
02:44:11 so you can and unfortunately the laptop i was using at that time we had some software where you could download that onto an excel spreadsheet and it would have actually have downloaded all those readings the laptop i had at the time wouldn't operate that software
02:44:22 operate that software otherwise i'd have saved that software i'd have saved all those tests and it would just spin another spreadsheet with a load of readings on yes i understand that so was that the normal practice that the
02:44:33 so was that the normal practice that the anemometer would download automatically produce these readings in a spreadsheet and that would go in the commissioning report was that the normal practice with that particular anonymity yes we could do that yeah and download that
02:44:45 could do that yeah and download that spreadsheet and was that your normal commissioning practice
02:44:49 practice it's it when we could use that software yes
02:44:53 yes unfortunately grenfell the software wouldn't work on the laptop i had so i couldn't download it yes i understand now just to look at what we get recorded in the
02:45:04 what we get recorded in the above ground commissioning report if we could go back to that psb 401152 at page
02:45:18 this sheet and then the sheet below on the next page page nine
02:45:29 on the next page page nine is is the two sheets of measurements of readings that we get included in this commissioning report yes yeah and i think what you're saying um on this page nine is that for each floor
02:45:41 on this page nine is that for each floor level the figure we then see in the second column under open door meters per second is the average figure that you took with the
02:45:50 the anemometer yeah yeah
02:45:55 it doesn't tell us there that it's an average does it
02:45:59 no but that's what it was that was the average reading per door and they were the average readings on the grills as well so again on the grill although it was quite small there was two drills probably took four
02:46:10 there was two drills probably took four on that four on that which was one shaft and then the same that was the north shaft and south shaft so where it says high grill high speed that's the north shaft
02:46:21 that's the north shaft so the average velocity on that grill was per that reading and then the low delay speed was the average velocity on the other
02:46:32 the other yes i see um
02:46:36 now if we can go sorry yes one final question on this um airflow across um doors did you ever take any airflow readings across any other door
02:46:48 readings across any other door other than the stair door at any stage no but when we were doing a certain test which is the one where we were testing
02:47:01 which is the one where we were testing the a foot a fire on a floor then activate the main fireman's override switch and then what would happen is we'd activate the key switch on that level
02:47:12 key switch on that level yes the yellow key switch the other key switch that would open the dampers on that level yeah the fans would start up
02:47:19 up we'd open the door make sure that the fans ramped up to full speed we'd then close the door make sure the fans dropped down yes i would then take the key switch
02:47:32 yes i would then take the key switch and i'd go to the floor below so the dampers are still open yeah gary would stay on that floor i would then open the door to the floor below into that lobby
02:47:43 to the floor below into that lobby and there'd be no airflow i would then put the key switch in and turn it i would then tell gary i've activated the keyswitch on the next level he would stay and wait to ensure that
02:47:55 he would stay and wait to ensure that all the dampers closed on the level that we'd activated yes then he come down to my level yes i'd get the key again each day on that level we'd do the door function again to make sure the damper
02:48:07 again to make sure the damper the fans ramped up and ramped down i would go to the level below yes and at no time when the door on the upper level was either closed or open when i opened the door to the
02:48:18 or open when i opened the door to the level below did i get any airflow okay either inwards or outwards nothing i understand thank you now the fourth acceptance test is the opening door force we can see that if we go back to
02:48:31 force we can see that if we go back to the british standard um rbk3045054 page 73 and we look at paragraph 12.2.4
02:48:42 page 73 and we look at paragraph 12.2.4 as the heading opening door force and if we look below that it says the fourth acceptance test shall be to measure the opening door force on the doors between the pressurized and unpressurized spaces
02:48:54 unpressurized spaces as defined in clause 4. the opening force at a particular door shall be measured as follows
02:49:03 and then we can see the method described below that you have to actuate the pressure differential system fasten the end of the force
02:49:14 system fasten the end of the force measuring device ejs spring balance to the door handle on the side of the door in the direction of opening release any latching mechanism if necessary holding it open pull on the free end of the force
02:49:25 pull on the free end of the force measuring device noting the highest value of force measured as the door opens now were you familiar with that method of testing that door opening force yes
02:49:38 and would you agree that that fourth test required measurements to be taken of
02:49:43 of all the doors between pressurized and unpressurized spaces we tested all the doors that were active fire floor doors
02:49:54 fire floor doors uh you wouldn't see a force on the door below or above because there's no no negative pressure i meant the former did you check all of the yeah every flight on every single level
02:50:05 every single level every floor and that was witnessed uh on the first occasion by max fordham and j s rights witness sorry just say max max fordham
02:50:17 witness sorry just say max max fordham wanted to see the door opening forces so we we did the door opening force test again
02:50:26 again with max fordham's consultant in attendance alan wright from jsright pulled the doors open and took the readings wrote them down
02:50:37 and took the readings wrote them down yes now we don't see in the commissioning report do we any record of the door opening forces normally i would have done that and used our spring balance control
02:50:48 our spring balance control unfortunately i didn't have it so alan went out and bought spring balance and used theirs which obviously he kept yes and he he took the readings
02:50:59 yes and he he took the readings and i asked him for a copy of them right i never did get him okay so what i think you're explaining and we're going to see this in the email at the ma in the moment is that you didn't have the device for
02:51:10 is that you didn't have the device for testing the door opening force with you is that correct so but js wright went out and got such a device and they did the test or you did it now we did it together
02:51:22 or you did it now we did it together there were three others for the four of us and how many flaws did you do that test on
02:51:26 test on all of them every single one every one and
02:51:30 and you expected the results of that to be sent back to you yes yes but i did ask for them but i never got them but they never were no no yes let's look at some contemporaneous emails on this
02:51:41 contemporaneous emails on this if we go to psb 401152
02:51:48 we can see an email
02:51:52 from david harrison of psb to jonathan earl
02:51:55 earl at jsright it's dated the 26th of may 2016.
02:52:03 may 2016. and he says um jonathan hi jonathan following our discussion yesterday and just as a preamble for the smoke control system we've been we've designed to provide the existing stairwell with protection from the
02:52:14 stairwell with protection from the ingress of smoke from a fire within a dwelling by means of a mechanical extract system the system has been designed to provide an average open door velocity across an open stairwell door of two meters per second
02:52:25 second this velocity is in accordance with the recommendation for a class b pressure differential system as divine just defined in that code of practice 12101 part 6.
02:52:36 in that code of practice 12101 part 6. and then in the third paragraph it says the control system also has pressure sensors added into each ventilated lobby to control the speed of the fans to
02:52:47 to control the speed of the fans to ensure that when the doors on the escape routes are closed that the opening force on the door does not exceed
02:52:53 exceed 100 newtons as detailed in british standard 12101 part 6. this was witnessed by your mr alan white and the reading which was not recorded
02:53:06 and the reading which was not recorded in our commissioning sheets but read as 85 newtons on the scale provided by j s wright do you see that there i do yes
02:53:19 now
02:53:23 can can we agree that the way that email is written suggests that in fact it was only one opening door force
02:53:34 one opening door force measurement which was recorded he says this was witnessed by your mr alan white and
02:53:38 and the reading which was not recorded in our commissioning sheets but read as 85 newtons on the scale provided by j s wright do you agree that that email suggests
02:53:51 do you agree that that email suggests that in fact only one reading was took at 85 newtons yeah but as i've said we did it on every floor
02:53:59 floor so i think what you're saying is that's not consistent with what you remember doing which was actually to test on every floor yes we definitely tested every door
02:54:11 yes we definitely tested every door every floor we started at the top and worked his way down
02:54:15 down um can you help us as to where the 85 newtons comes from well i think the i think the average that alan
02:54:23 that alan got was about 85 known so the maximum we got was about 85. i previously tested these doors during pre-commissioning and that's why the fan speeds were
02:54:35 and that's why the fan speeds were changed
02:54:36 changed so that we got less we had one or two doors that were like 97 so i changed the fan speed and pressure switch so that it dropped down to about 85.
02:54:48 85. and and we did that when i had the spring gauge with me so i'd already done all these readings once
02:54:54 once but the consultant from max fordham wanted to see the readings he also wanted to see the velocity readings and that's what we did
02:55:07 velocity readings and that's what we did so we did it on every floor
02:55:10 yes and i i think we can see the email where we see max fordham wanting to see these readings if we go to that psb 401161 page four
02:55:32 psb401161 at page four
02:55:43 so we can see that this is an email um from alan white the one the second one down
02:55:50 down allen white of js wright to david harrison of psb copying in you 10th of may 2016. and he says good morning david we have a few requirements outstanding items to
02:56:01 few requirements outstanding items to address to close out grenfell tower and you can see that the second bullet point is max fordham's need to see pull tests on each lobby door carried out with fans in low speed to prove we're
02:56:12 with fans in low speed to prove we're not exceeding 100 newtons this would be satisfied by the by the a schedule of each door and a calibration certificate for the force gauge used do you remember reading that
02:56:25 gauge used do you remember reading that well that's dated 10th of may yes which is after i was on site but i did those readings with alan white and i'm sure the consultant
02:56:36 alan white and i'm sure the consultant was from max fordham although it could have been somebody from ryden i don't know and we did all those readings yes i mean it would appear that max walden
02:56:46 walden wanted a schedule of the readings on each door and the calibration certificate for the force gauge used did you understand that's what they wanted well i can see that now now that i'm reading it yeah yeah but that was never provided neither were
02:56:58 but that was never provided neither were provided were they the readings were taken by ellen and there was somebody else there myself all the readings were taken on every
02:57:10 all the readings were taken on every floor and i did ask for a copy which i never got
02:57:16 so as for the calibration certificate it was just a spring gauge it's a weight spring gauge weight basically yeah
02:57:28 spring gauge weight basically yeah if we just move up this chain if we go to the bottom of page three
02:57:35 um right at the bottom you can see there's an email from david harrison to alan white 11th of may 2016. and then we look at the next page top of the next page he says morning allen
02:57:47 the next page he says morning allen please find attach the anemometer calibration certificate for the measured ratings during our final commissioning regarding the other points granville has been trying to contact you on numerous occasions to discuss in detail
02:57:59 occasions to discuss in detail so if you give him a call it would be appreciated so had you had you been trying to contact alan white to discuss this point about the force opening the door force opening
02:58:10 force opening that email is in the context of the girl velocities the building control
02:58:21 the girl velocities the building control had asked could the avion could they have volumetric readings for the doors
02:58:28 the doors rather than a velocity but the spec requests
02:58:31 requests velocity not volumetric so i asked alan if he sent me the volume the area of each door i would work out the volumetric reading in meters cubed per
02:58:42 volumetric reading in meters cubed per second rather than meters per second yes and now we never answered any any of the requests i see and if i can just finish just looking at this email chain um
02:58:54 just looking at this email chain um if we move up the chain on page three a few lines down from the top of page three
02:59:00 three we see ellen white then email emailing psb
02:59:04 psb including you so emails david harrison and your seed seed asking for psb's availability to carry out door pull tests and for the airflow readings requested by building control so he says
02:59:16 requested by building control so he says david satisfy building control and the consultant and close out this job in your help with the points below and building control i think that should be one measured flow rates at each high and
02:59:28 one measured flow rates at each high and low damper done with hoods and not calculated from the velocity v versus free area the consultant wants proof that each door does not exceed 100 newtons of pull
02:59:39 exceed 100 newtons of pull force do you see that there yes i do yeah
02:59:47 and then
02:59:50 it's determined actually i have to go to a new email string there would you rather come back to that later yes i think i'll let let's break there i can carry on with this topic perfectly happily after the break
03:00:01 happily after the break yeah all right well we'll stop there then uh one mr parker it's time we all broke to have some lunch so we'll do that now we'll come back please at two o'clock and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating
03:00:13 about your evidence or anything relating to it
03:00:14 to it when you're away from the room all right no problem thank you very much you'd like to do the usher then please
03:00:30 thank you very much two o'clock