PSB UK Ltd Evidence - Tuesday 6th July 2021 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:33 yes would you ask mr partly to come back in please

00:00:52 all right mr partner are you ready to carry on yes good thank you very much yes it's great yes thank you yes so we were midway talking about the tests on the um door opening force if we could go now

00:01:04 um door opening force if we could go now to email psb 401140 and look at page one

00:01:17 so just looking at the email at the top of the page from david harrison to you on the 13th of may 2016 he says i know you've got this mail but someone more knowledgeable than me needs to say how we can do this and what kit

00:01:29 to say how we can do this and what kit we need

00:01:30 we need to satisfy the building control officer bco

00:01:34 bco also purchase a calibrated spring gauge in newtons do you see that there i know yes

00:01:40 yes does this show that psb didn't have such a gauge

00:01:44 a gauge themselves at the time they had a gauge it wasn't calibrated and they were in kilograms

00:01:51 kilograms so we had to convert kg to nones right so 10 kgs is 100 newtons i see does that mean that it wasn't normally part of psb's commissioning process to

00:02:02 part of psb's commissioning process to test these door opening forces no no we tested them right but the gauge that we had we needed to get one that was actually measuring newtons because then it had been ought to 100 or

00:02:14 because then it had been ought to 100 or no to 200

00:02:15 no to 200 and we did get them uh and where's the one that we had yet to physically look at it while you were doing it

00:02:22 doing it this one had like a little memory on it so that whatever the maximum force registered was yeah that's what you saw yeah given that all the key pieces of guidance seem to suggest that it's 100 newtons

00:02:34 seem to suggest that it's 100 newtons that you're going newton's is the the unit by which you're measuring it um isn't that surprising that psv didn't have that piece of kit already well it's it's in it was in kg

00:02:48 well it's it's in it was in kg and 10 kgs is 100 newtons right it's only a case of if you get 9.7 it's 97. i see so you but you thought you needed to get on this job well because the

00:02:59 this job well because the the letter from uh alan white i think it was said that they needed to do the readings in newtons if we were called back to take them

00:03:11 if we were called back to take them again then we should have a gage that was

00:03:13 was in newtons basically i see and then if we can go to um psb401141 and look at this email

00:03:28 so this is from alan white to you on the 13th of

00:03:32 13th of may 2016. if we can just blow up the email a little bit so he says morning island this is a preamble the smoke control system has been

00:03:43 the smoke control system has been designed to provide the existing stairwell there was protection from the ingress of smoke from a fire within a dwelling by means of a mechanical extract system system designed to find an open door velocity velocity that's the second

00:03:54 velocity velocity that's the second paragraph third paragraph the control system will also actually have pressure sensors added to each ventilated lobby to control the speed of the fans to ensure that when the doors on the escape routes are

00:04:05 the doors on the escape routes are closed

00:04:06 closed the opening force on the door does not exceed 100 newtons as detailed in that standard

00:04:11 standard to this end the system supplied in commission complies with the standards and has been accepted by all consultants building control over time we are not entirely clear or understand what additional information

00:04:22 understand what additional information you wish to achieve above what's been carried out to date be greatly appreciated if you could send the additional requirements so that's what psp sorry that's what david harrison is

00:04:35 sorry that's what david harrison is saying to alan white copying you in at that stage um and then if we could go to an email of the 27th of may 2016 this is

00:04:54 ryd3079494 this is an email of the 27th of may 2016 from jonathan earl of j s wright to steve blake at ryden

00:05:09 with a progress update and if we look at at point one you're not one of the the um those cc'ed into this email at point one it says um psb actions plus

00:05:20 at point one it says um psb actions plus o m's o m have been issued for comments in regards to the pull tests these have been witnessed to 85 newtons and the test results are identified in the attached email

00:05:33 identified in the attached email psb have stated the information given is the requirement to commission this type of system

00:05:38 of system but if further pull tests and volumetric evidence is to be witnessed please advise a date they are more than happy to discuss with building control

00:05:50 um do you know and can you help us whether any further door tests were carried out after this time not to the best of my knowledge no okay

00:06:03 not to the best of my knowledge no okay now the fifth acceptance test is called activation of the system if we go back to the british standard at rbk3045054

00:06:15 at rbk3045054 page 73

00:06:23 we can see at 2.2.5 towards the in the second half of that page

00:06:32 page activation of the system and it says the last test

00:06:35 last test should be to operate the automatic fire detection system smoke detector by injecting smoke into the detector head

00:06:42 head this shall in turn operate the central fire alarm panel thus activating the pressure differential system now if you go to paragraph 80 of your first statement

00:06:53 first statement that's on page 14.

00:07:00 you you tell us there that the detector was activating using a can of artificial smoke to spray the smoke head this is the only way to activate the system

00:07:11 the only way to activate the system when it is set to run

00:07:18 now

00:07:22 is that is that right that how the how the test was carried out so would one of you be at the hmi panel and the other be setting off the detectors with an

00:07:33 be setting off the detectors with an artificial can of smoke is that correct yeah the reason why i want to build the panel and

00:07:39 panel and one at the detector is because once you've activated the detector to reset the system that can only be done at the hmi panel i see so it would depend what

00:07:50 i see so it would depend what part of the testing we were doing so if for example i was looking at was the hmi recording the same information that was actually happening on the fire

00:08:02 that was actually happening on the fire level

00:08:03 level so i'd be looking you know if gary sprayed it anywhere on level 21 i'd be looking to see if it came up fire detected level 21 yes and then in the page you could say

00:08:14 and then in the page you could say dampers

00:08:15 dampers sdo whatever open they'd have to match up with the ones that were on floor 21 yes yes and if you were doing multiple floors

00:08:25 floors that always have to be somebody the hmi because to move to another floor and test another detector

00:08:32 detector you've got to reset the one that you've just activated yes i understand yes then so in terms of these final commissioning steps in in paragraphs 93 to 100 of your first statement i don't

00:08:44 to 100 of your first statement i don't think we need to pull them up and you explain that as the final commissioning step you check that the system worked as intended in the cause and effect document is that right yes and we're going to go

00:08:55 is that right yes and we're going to go in

00:08:55 in to each check that you did at this final stage in a moment but did that involve activating the system on each floor

00:09:03 floor yes checking that all the smoke detectors operated correctly yes checking that all the dampers were opening and closing correctly on the correct levels

00:09:14 correct levels yes i opening on the fire floor and closing on all the other levels that was checked they should all be closed but if you were doing it from environmental mode to fire for argument's sake

00:09:27 mode to fire for argument's sake then you would have to check that all the dampers are closed which we did do and we did that check during one of the demonstrations right because we activated environmental mode then activated as a smoke detector yeah we'll come back to

00:09:39 smoke detector yeah we'll come back to that in a moment and then did you check that the override facility on the hmi panel and the fireman's override switches all operated correctly yes yeah now going back to the list that we saw

00:09:52 now going back to the list that we saw in the

00:09:53 in the smoke control association guide this is

00:09:58 rbk402932 at page 59.

00:10:08 we can see that the first check is operate each motorized damper by activation of the desi designated manual or automatic device now um we know that in total at grenfell

00:10:20 now um we know that in total at grenfell tower there are 92 dampers plus two separate automatic opening vents which need to be commissioned do you recall that it was you know of that magnitude the number of dampers

00:10:31 that magnitude the number of dampers that had to be checked possibly yes well definitely now if we look at the psb commissioning report this is at psb 50224 page 3.

00:10:53 the second table records on this page records the dampers door actuators window actuators and we can see that the dampers are

00:11:04 and we can see that the dampers are there at s their sd-01 to sd-48 those were some of the dampers yes they were all of them but then there's also cd01

00:11:17 but then there's also cd01 and cd02 dampers yes do you see those as well yes now in your first witness statement you've explained that the sd numbers relate to the dampers

00:11:29 the dampers um so sd09 was the first damper on floor 4 and sd-48 was the last damper on floor 23. is that correct yes if that's that's

00:11:43 23. is that correct yes if that's that's what it was or should that be sd01 was the first damper on floor four no sd01 we're on ground level right and then you've told us that the

00:11:54 and then you've told us that the reference to cd01 and cd02 here relate to the shut off dampers which enabled the system to switch from environmental mode to smoke control mode

00:12:07 environmental mode to smoke control mode is that correct yes that's correct so they're at level two yes yes and you've said that the dampers were numbered in the same way on the cause and effect spreadsheet yes

00:12:19 cause and effect spreadsheet yes yes and on the uh 800 drawing yes and is it right that the dampers were wired together in pairs

00:12:30 dampers were wired together in pairs explaining why this number um is less than the full 92 dampers on the smoke dampers yes because what you've got sdo1 which i'm assuming from memory was the

00:12:41 which i'm assuming from memory was the south shaft smoke damper on ground level well on ground level it was one damper but it from

00:12:50 from 4 to 23 yes there was two dampers into the same shaft yes so s if it were nine sdl9 yeah would have been the two dampers in

00:13:02 yeah would have been the two dampers in the cell shaft yes i understand sd10 would have been the two dampers into the north shaft yeah now if we can go to a figure of dr lane's phase 2 report this is blarp

00:13:15 lane's phase 2 report this is blarp 2 5035

00:13:18 2 5035 at page 96

00:13:26 so we want figure 4.15 uh if we could blow that up so this is a a diagram that we've got from dr lane

00:13:38 a diagram that we've got from dr lane which

00:13:39 which shows where the four dampers where were at level two we can see one is the environmental inlet bypass damper two

00:13:50 inlet bypass damper two is the smoke outlet bypass damper three is the smoke inlet bypass damper and four is the environmental outlet bypass damper so basically in environmental mode

00:14:02 environmental mode the air would go around the blue ducting wouldn't it with those dampers open yes but then in smoke control mode those two dampers at one and four would have to shut

00:14:13 to shut yes and the dampers at two and three would have to open is that correct yes yeah now can you help us as to which of these dampers there are

00:14:25 as to which of these dampers there are four down there are cd01 and cd02 because we currently don't know that the four dampers were on the sketches that were put in

00:14:36 were on the sketches that were put in they were installed but there were never only two were used cdo one cd02 you only need to isolate the environmental air and the smoke

00:14:48 environmental air and the smoke side with the damper on each side of it you don't need four dampers so cd01 is the smoke damper cd02 is the

00:14:59 is the smoke damper cd02 is the environmental right so when you say cd01 is the smoke damper where on this drawing do we see the smoke damper well i'm not not quite sure but i think

00:15:10 well i'm not not quite sure but i think it's the one next to the shaft and this the same applies to the other four little circles with numbers in on this drawing can you tell us where cd01 was the smoke damper

00:15:23 cd01 was the smoke damper it would have been at one end or the other of the red shaded ductwork right there weren't four dampers in there there were four but two were in

00:15:34 there there were four but two were in use

00:15:35 use they weren't connected they were just held open

00:15:38 held open which were the two that were held open well it would have been three and four if they were foreign cdo one and two were the only two in use so what you're saying is at points three and four they were permanently held open yes

00:15:51 permanently held open yes so are you saying that in in environmental mode number one would be open yeah two would be closed yeah and in smoke control mode two would be open and one would be closed yeah and cd01

00:16:05 yeah and cd01 therefore if you're saying that's the smoke control damper are you saying that's number two on this drawing well if that's the case yes right and cd02 would be number one on this drawing

00:16:18 would be number one on this drawing yes let's see um if you go to um psb 50232

00:16:39 this is the cause and effect uh chart in paragraph 144 of your first statement you mentioned this spreadsheet but um and we've

00:16:50 spreadsheet but um and we've looked at it before but it's right isn't it that

00:16:53 it that this chart doesn't show the cd01 and cd202 dampers on it no why was that

00:17:04 no why was that well i'd i didn't put i didn't draw the cause and effect char too but it was probably deemed that it's only the fire zones and fire dampers that needed to be on there

00:17:16 fire dampers that needed to be on there obviously

00:17:17 obviously in the mechanical spec and the drawings that i worked to that was shown as cdo one and cd02

00:17:27 but you see again someone picking up this documentation and using it subsequently um how would they know from this chart that there were actually quite important dampers down at level

00:17:38 quite important dampers down at level two

00:17:39 two that needed to operate correctly if the system was going to switch over from environmental into smoke control mode how would they know that because they're in the cold control panel way wiring drawings

00:17:50 control panel way wiring drawings so you'd have to look at those drawings to work that out whenever you're working on anything you've got to look at more than one

00:17:55 than one document you've got to look at at least sometimes up to four or five different drawings and documents yes but why doesn't this cause an effect chart get

00:18:05 chart get amended to add in those two dampers i have no idea can we agree they're pretty important dampers aren't they well they are

00:18:16 dampers aren't they well they are important definitely yeah now

00:18:21 yeah now if we go to paragraph 81 of your first statement at page 14.

00:18:31 you you tell us at paragraph 81 about how you did the checks on the dampers gary doyle checked to make sure that the dampers on that level opened by checking that the red light on the smoke act detector was lit

00:18:44 the smoke act detector was lit and that the led near the output on the relevant mode bus outstation card was lit which showed that the correct signals were being sent and received and the dampers were activated gary doyle also carried out a

00:18:55 activated gary doyle also carried out a visual check that the dampers were working

00:18:58 working i also asked him to open and close the door to the stair to check that the fan speed increased when the door was open i was positioned at the hmi panel i checked that the hmi panel displayed a message stating that the fans were

00:19:09 message stating that the fans were running and on which level smoke had been detected [Applause] now if we go to a photograph now bla r p 2 5

00:19:22 r p 2 5 0 35 at page 194 this is an image from dr lane's phase two smoke report on the screen we can see a post fire

00:19:33 on the screen we can see a post fire photograph of these are the south dampers on level four and that you can see one one has got the grill still on on the right hand side and the other with the grill removed

00:19:45 and the other with the grill removed did either you or mr doyle check the dampers with the grills in front of the dampers removed now we checked him with the grilles in position all that had been bolted back up

00:19:55 up yeah all those grilles were all done we anti-tamper screws so that residents couldn't take them off basically so you couldn't have taken those off

00:20:03 those off when you were checking the dampers shiny torch they wouldn't see whether it's open or closed so um when you say mr doyle carried out a visual check that would mean looking through the

00:20:14 that would mean looking through the grill at the damper is that correct yes and if the dampers closed it would appear

00:20:19 appear like the picture on the left hand side if the dampers open the blades that are being horizontal and you have to see into the shaft yes i see

00:20:29 see um now if you look at paragraph 42 of your first statement on page eight

00:20:38 a paragraph 42 when you're dealing with the dampers this is what you said in your first statement grills were fastened onto the front of the shafts where the dampers were located

00:20:48 located so it was not possible to see the dampers and actuators the motors that drove the dampers that clearly

00:20:55 clearly so that's what you're saying there yeah you could you could you could see whether or not the damper had actuated open and actuated closed but you couldn't

00:21:04 couldn't you know you couldn't it you had to use a torch and shine it through a light like

00:21:09 like reading a meter in a meter cupboard i see that yeah and that's just the way it was with it i mean is that always the case in commissioning that with something like this you're looking through grills no because in normal commissioning on a building we wouldn't be looking through

00:21:21 building we wouldn't be looking through grills all the grills would be removed yes at the initial stages of commissioning once we'd checked all the dampers were functioning correctly not sticking no problems the grills would have then

00:21:33 no problems the grills would have then been put on by the installers yes so why didn't that happen here why drills were already on we didn't take the grilles off didn't install the dampers and when we

00:21:44 didn't install the dampers and when we actually got to site on levels 4 to 23 all these with the exception of one

00:21:51 one all these dampers and grills were all all the dampers were wired up yeah and all the grills were in position and as i said the grilles were well done with

00:21:59 with anti-tamper screws yes did you ever raise the lack of clear sight of the dampers with anybody did you ever raise that as a concern no because i could see whether the damper

00:22:10 because i could see whether the damper was open or closed it wasn't a case of i can't see it so i don't know if it's open or closed yes all i'm saying is the view was partially obscured

00:22:19 obscured but not to the if you know not to the level that you couldn't see if it actuated

00:22:24 actuated yeah i just want to ask you about what other checks you performed on these dampers did you ever test the wiring of the dampers behind the grill from the out station yes when you say

00:22:35 from the out station yes when you say from the out station what does that mean well i did dead testing on the damper cabling

00:22:40 cabling to make sure there were no short circuiting and then tested for the continuity through the damper motor and then obviously when you power it up and drive it home and drive it closed it's obviously working

00:22:51 it's obviously working i see so you did it from the out station what about testing the wiring of the dampers

00:22:56 dampers um close to the dampers themselves behind the grill do you ever test that yeah would you normally test that during commissioning now we test it from control panels did you perform an actuator operation

00:23:07 actuator operation check yes did you undertake an electrical check using a voltmeter yes is it right that two or three of the dampers

00:23:16 dampers in fact didn't work you tell us that at paragraph 42 of your first statement so rje the installers were called back is that correct yes did you ever find out why they

00:23:28 yes did you ever find out why they didn't work when you checked them i believe one of them was slightly out of alignment

00:23:35 alignment you these these dampers work to tight tolerance obviously because they're supposed to be reasonably airtight and if they're installed and you know slightly tilted they'll stick

00:23:48 you know slightly tilted they'll stick the other two i believe had got old existing cabling that were hanging down inside the shaft when the dampers were actuated open it got stuck in the blade so that was removed right the fact that

00:24:01 so that was removed right the fact that that that was discovered those those problems that you just identified did that raise any concerns for you about the quality of rj electric's work on the dampers uh not really because all

00:24:14 on the dampers uh not really because all the other dampers we had no issues and we opened and closed these dampers probably hundred times before it were ended over in total right did you raise these um defects with js wright or the

00:24:25 these um defects with js wright or the tmo

00:24:27 tmo in terms of what you've discovered about dampers not working due to these problems with js right yes you did and what was the response of js right they instructed the

00:24:39 they instructed the company that installed them to take the drill covers off and find out why yeah and i actually assisted if you like i was there when they did each one yeah and then did you retest the dampers

00:24:50 yeah and then did you retest the dampers again that rje had replaced yeah they didn't replace them they just found out what the obstructions were i beg your pardon yeah i see did rje install all the dampers or just some of them all

00:25:02 all the dampers or just some of them all of them to best of all yeah now in terms of the level two dampers can we just look at a photograph to help with this we've we've talked about the dampers that were there at level two to shut off the

00:25:13 there at level two to shut off the environmental system and so that the smoke control system could work if we go to blarp to 5035

00:25:25 5035 and at page 104

00:25:31 yes if we can blow up um this is a photograph uh figure 4.18 of the horizontal fire rated ductwork at level 2.

00:25:42 rated ductwork at level 2. and that duct work was all at high position at level two wasn't it it was it was elevated up yes and um can you help us then

00:25:54 and um can you help us then how did you how did you carry out the checks

00:25:59 checks of the dampers that were in the in that ducting how did you do that at the time that we were testing the fans and duct duckwork at level two

00:26:10 fans and duct duckwork at level two which were probably on the second possibly third visit in february all that area was scaffolded out so basically you could walk onto the scaffolding and you was that the ductwork

00:26:23 and you was that the ductwork it well slightly above my head i believe it was explored right so and there was inspection archers next to the dampers that were in operation so we took the inspection

00:26:35 in operation so we took the inspection hatches off i operated the the dampers from the control panel yeah and then gary radioed back to me to say whether or not it had opened or closed what position it were in

00:26:46 position it were in yes i understand you did that in february and that you had the assistance of scaffolding what about at the end of the commissioning process when you're supposed to be commissioning the whole

00:26:56 the whole and testing the whole system and checking it works properly at that point did you go back and did you

00:27:04 you check that those dampers were working properly at level two no because once the working the working and i can understand where you're coming from

00:27:12 from but then all the readings that we took during

00:27:16 during the final week of commissioning had those dampers have not operated we wouldn't have got any flows yes so we wouldn't have to take any readings that would then suggest there's an issue

00:27:26 an issue and yes we would have gone back i do believe the scaffolding in that area was still there right up to the very end i see i don't know when it was taken out yes but i think you've just confirmed

00:27:37 yes but i think you've just confirmed that when you did the tech checks at the end you didn't see the need to go back because we'd already we'd already done it yes we'd already done it we've proved that the dampers were working

00:27:48 that the dampers were working both manually operating them and then under fire simulation conditions on probably 15 or 20 different occasions and then when we were taking readings on

00:27:59 and then when we were taking readings on the final visits at those dampers have not opened in either mode environmental or fire we wouldn't have got any readings right and the door velocities would have dropped by

00:28:11 dropped by probably half so that would have suggested there's an issue yes there's a reason i'm asking about this because both the bre and dr lane have expressed concern about whether or not those dampers worked correctly

00:28:22 correctly during the fire so that that's why we're exploring this particular definitely worked 100 now when checking the dampers i think you've said that you were at the hmi panel and mr

00:28:34 that you were at the hmi panel and mr deuter

00:28:34 deuter doyle did a corresponding check the dampers on all other floors where they should be closed were closed how did he actually do that does that mean that every time you now what would happen is on the

00:28:46 you now what would happen is on the first morning we would go up to on a good day in the lift to level 24 we'd come all the way back down and check all the dampers were closed captioning not

00:29:10 then you start doing available testing i want you to focus on this question if you then choose to test say level four okay and you at the hmi panel you trigger off level four or someone

00:29:22 you trigger off level four or someone injects smoke into level four level four is supposed to open and all the other dampers are supposed to be closed

00:29:29 closed correct when you're checking level four and that those dampers have opened would mr doyle also go and check that all the dampers on the other floor had closed when level four was open

00:29:41 had closed when level four was open would he do that remained closed is that what he made remained closed yes no because i i used to plug my laptop in and monitor the software once you've proved that the software is working

00:29:53 working and no signals have been sent to any other floor then they can't operate they can only operate if they receive a signal to operate

00:30:01 operate and if i've got the laptop plugged in i can see what signals have been sent out so basically if you initiate a detector on level four the only outputs that should activate

00:30:13 the only outputs that should activate are the dampers on level four if no signals are sent to any out stations for any other dampers that's it they can't operate they haven't received a signal but yes we would have checked them every

00:30:24 but yes we would have checked them every so often

00:30:25 so often to make sure that ones that had been open had reclosed i think and when we did a floor by floor check we did that for every floor yes can we just look at something that dr lane says in her

00:30:36 dr lane says in her phase 2 smoke report about this at

00:30:41 blarp25035 page 281

00:30:46 and i want to look at paragraph 7.9.50 so dr lane has considered in detail the functioning of this hmi panel and what she said is this the damper

00:30:58 and what she said is this the damper status on this screen is based on the most recent control signal sent to the dampers and not the physical state of the dampers at that time

00:31:09 dampers at that time see section 712 for details therefore the damper status screen on the hmi panel could not be relied upon

00:31:18 upon to verify the physical position open or closed

00:31:22 closed of the dampers in each lobby of grenfell tower

00:31:25 tower it is not clear to me whether the persons carrying out the commissioning and maintenance of the smoke control system

00:31:31 system were aware that the damper status screen on the hmi panel was not based on an actual signal back from the damper to the hmi panel now is that consistent with your

00:31:42 now is that consistent with your understanding of the system and the hmi panel it is but again what you have to think is that if somebody's got to go on 25 floors every time we operate one floor

00:31:54 every time we operate one floor you know so i mean basically a couple of times throughout the day once we've finished activating dampers we're getting the lift go up to the upper floor come all the way back down and make sure every damper were back where it should

00:32:05 every damper were back where it should be

00:32:06 be yeah none had remained open yes i appreciate that might have been a lot of work to check it manually but do you accept the point that dr lane is making there which is you can't simply rely upon what the hmi

00:32:18 you can't simply rely upon what the hmi panel is telling you because that's only saying that a signal's been sent it's not actually telling you that a signal's been received back from the damper

00:32:27 damper with its status open or closed yes i accept that yeah can i just ask you do these dampers have any default modes they're not spring loaded or no not these type because these are smoke

00:32:39 because these are smoke dampers they're not fire and spawn right so they've got to be opened by an actuator

00:32:43 actuator and closed by an actuator yes yes

00:32:50 yes you see so one of the points that dr lane has made is that say the fire brigade when they were looking at this panel on the night wouldn't have realized that this hmi panel

00:33:01 panel in terms of what it was showing them was not actually showing them data from the damper itself was just showing them what signal had been sent out to the damper do you understand and she's critical of that hmi screen

00:33:15 and she's critical of that hmi screen for potentially misleading the reader of that screen in thinking that you were getting reliable data back from the damper was that something that ever occurred to you when you were commissioning the system

00:33:29 the dampers are quite reliable once you've proved that they're all working and they only work when they get a signal to work as with any other system you've got to assume that that's how it works and that's the reason why it's always

00:33:43 and that's the reason why it's always the you know it's necessary to do maintenance checks during those maintenance checks that's what would happen again you'd do a mini commissioning and you'd prove that dampers were opening and closing properly

00:33:54 opening and closing properly and and matched up with what it said on the screen against interrupt but if um if a damper got stuck

00:34:02 got stuck because they they operate on a spindle then there or something yeah it's like a drive mechanism if a damper got stuck

00:34:09 got stuck presumably you would see on the panel that the signal had been sent to open or close it as the case may be

00:34:16 be but you wouldn't know whether it had responded to the signal no no thank you thank you do you know why the system was not set up to provide real-time

00:34:27 up to provide real-time information about the state of the the damper

00:34:33 damper i i i don't know i mean damper monitoring which is now more widely used as you know it's not something that as far as i'm

00:34:44 it's not something that as far as i'm aware it wasn't something that was required by any specific rules no but are there systems that you're aware of that you've commissioned where you do have damper what you just call

00:34:56 you do have damper what you just call damper monitoring yes we do now yes you do now and when you talk about now are you doing a distinction between what you did at the time of grenfell and what you do now no because we had damper monitoring on other sites where it's different kind of

00:35:08 other sites where it's different kind of system it's basement systems where we monitor dampers whether it's multiple rooms in a basement for example yes and can you give us any explanation as to why

00:35:19 as to why we didn't have any kind of damper monitoring at grenfell tower i didn't do the design so no i can't count unfortunately no yeah you see again the reason why i'm asking is after the fire

00:35:30 asking is after the fire the bre reported that certain dampers not on level four where the fire was detected at other levels appeared

00:35:37 appeared to have been open when they shouldn't have been

00:35:40 have been but again you've got to remember that some of these dampers opened potentially four or five hours after the fire started when the old building was encompassed cables were being damaged

00:35:52 encompassed cables were being damaged yeah

00:35:53 yeah you can't surmise and supposition regarding why damp was open four hours after a fire started you know i mean it's not normal

00:36:04 you know i mean it's not normal conditions no i take i take that point um but i think a slightly more investigation has gone into whether the damper was open from the beginning or not in terms of smoke patterns etcetera but i

00:36:15 patterns etcetera but i understand the point you're making but can we agree that the lack of that feature the lack of that damper monitoring did mean that actually the commissioning

00:36:26 did mean that actually the commissioning process ought to have required a check each time of whether all the other dampers were closed even though that was time consuming we did check every day at lunchtime and end at end of every day we would go up

00:36:38 end at end of every day we would go up to the top come all the way down and make sure that when we'd reset the system

00:36:42 system every damper was closed and then we'd do that at the start of the next day and then we'd operate dampers and as we operated dampers and went from level to level testing uh famine's override switches

00:36:55 testing uh famine's override switches or even from the hmi we double checked that the damper on the floor we'd activated closed as well as the damper on the next floor activated opening yes i see and don't know the other

00:37:06 yes i see and don't know the other dampers should operate because they haven't been given a signal to operate well i realized they shouldn't operate because they've not had that signal but um as the term has just pointed out

00:37:17 but um as the term has just pointed out you could get a damper that got stuck because you opened it earlier and it's not been able to close and you haven't picked that up because it's on level 23 and no one's been up there for the last few tests

00:37:26 few tests at the end of the day i would check all them dampers again way back down make sure they're all closed yes so yeah we did do it a couple three times a day but not every time we operated a damper

00:37:37 but not every time we operated a damper because we'd have to lung we'd have to go up and down 25 floors every time we did one damper yes no i i follow that um can we go back to the psb commissioning report

00:37:48 commissioning report psb50224 and look at page three

00:37:55 so this is in the commissioning report and in terms of the dampers we've got cd01 and cd02 which you've been helping us with we don't get cd03

00:38:07 helping us with we don't get cd03 and zero four they're not shown in the table now

00:38:11 table now you tell us in your statement this is paragraph 38 of your second statement that cd04 was a permanently open vent not connected to the system and was effectively redundant

00:38:23 effectively redundant um what about cd03 it was held open it was mechanically not connected electrically and the damper was driven into the open position and left in the old position i

00:38:34 position and left in the old position i see so there's no wiring to it so it was never ever going to close again right so that's why they don't appear on this commissioning report they're not they're not on any of the tables for the wiring for the

00:38:45 connection sheets control panels they're not there they don't exist yeah now if we look at paragraph 107 of your first statement on page 18.

00:39:04 you tell us that you also took the following readings at the grill covering each damper on each floor and you say that it was when the system was operating in smoke control mode and

00:39:15 was operating in smoke control mode and the fans were operating at low speed the door to the stair was closed when the system was operating in smoke control mode and the fans were operating at high speed and when the system was operating in environmental

00:39:26 system was operating in environmental mode so you took readings actually at the grill for each damper is that correct how many readings did you take at each damper grill do you remember possibly between four and six they were

00:39:39 possibly between four and six they were only this big so it's very difficult to you know you've got to be about three or four hundred millimeters away with an ammeter as well yeah and where you've got two

00:39:48 got two say two for the south after the yeah yeah yeah doubled up yeah so you're taking like eight readings all told in the south shaft eight readings all told on the north shaft

00:39:58 shaft can we just look at some emails that were being sent about additional readings that were being requested psb four zeros one one two nine

00:40:10 psb four zeros one one two nine i want to begin with the third email down from

00:40:14 down from um mr hansen dated the fourth of may 2017

00:40:19 2017 at sorry 2016. sorry at 8 43 so in this email to mr hughes of ryden he says hi david the

00:40:31 mr hughes of ryden he says hi david the figures you've sent do not appear to be extract readings they should be in meters cubed per second the readings you sent are velocity readings in meters per second

00:40:42 velocity readings in meters per second and then he says remember that the testing of the system we're witnessing tomorrow should be in accordance with section 9 of the sca guide okay so he's asking for extract readings in meters cubed per

00:40:55 extract readings in meters cubed per second

00:40:55 second not meters per second um and then if we scroll upwards we can see that later that day alan white then contacts

00:41:06 white then contacts david bradbury

00:41:09 asking for his help with this

00:41:14 um alan white says dave can you help me out with this alan white and then if we go [Applause] upwards we can see

00:41:28 then david harrison says to david bradbury hi david building controller asking for the meters cubed per second readings are you able to provide please now do you remember this

00:41:41 please now do you remember this happening whereby building control were asking for extract readings in meters cube per second rather than meters per second yes

00:41:51 now is it right that the anemometer was measuring

00:41:55 measuring velocity and not volume flow correct now to your knowledge were the cubic meter extract meetings being requested here ever provided to

00:42:06 being requested here ever provided to building control they were never provided to building control i

00:42:14 when you when you're doing meters cube per second you're doing that because you're looking for a volumetric uh reading in meters cube per second

00:42:25 uh reading in meters cube per second so that you can work out the area of the lobby

00:42:30 lobby work out how many meters cube per second you're extracting yeah and then calculate from that how many air changes per hour that you you changing in that lobby yes on a car park system you would

00:42:43 yes on a car park system you would measure the grill work out the percentage of loss along the grill faces from the damper

00:42:52 damper and you would you would come up with a calculated figure that gives you meters cubed per second and then that then is converted into meters cube per hour to make sure that you're changing the air

00:43:03 you're changing the air in that car park a minimum of 10 times per hour yes and for that lobby for meters cube per second

00:43:10 second it wasn't part of what we would normally read

00:43:13 read no and when we did do them and i did do them based on the door being approximately 1.9 meters square or you know area and then the door velocities that we'd measured and the number of air changes

00:43:26 measured and the number of air changes per hour in that lobby were in hundreds yeah but it wasn't it wasn't a reading that we would normally expect to be asked for

00:43:33 asked for on an above ground system i think we quite often take readings of the fans to make sure that they meet requirement but usually by taking the door reading

00:43:44 but usually by taking the door reading and

00:43:44 and knowing that the door is say two meters square and the fans are discharging through point six of a meter square at seven meters a second when you work the two out that tells you that

00:43:56 the two out that tells you that your fans are working at full velocity yeah so the meters cube per hour it's i could i didn't understand why building control were asking for that and i do know david

00:44:08 and i do know david spoke to umani and asked him and he'd never come across it before right let's look another just to complete the picture another email on this psb401164

00:44:25 this is an email

00:44:29 from david harrison

00:44:34 to david bradbury i think it's the one at the bottom of the page um

00:44:45 sorry can we just go down go down the page to the next page

00:44:56 i think i must have a wrong reference um

00:45:03 yes there's an email that's i'll just summarize it there's

00:45:09 yes sorry that's it that there at the top of the page from david harrison psb to david bradbury of j s wright 8th of

00:45:20 to david bradbury of j s wright 8th of june

00:45:21 june and he says hi david we received your correspondence and would comment as follows point one an anemometer measures velocity and not volume flow as far as i'm aware there are no products

00:45:32 far as i'm aware there are no products in the marketplace which can measure the volume flow rate but i might be wrong should additional tests be required by the building control

00:45:39 control we are unable to accommodate the request on this occasion i suggest you contact a specialist organisation to fulfill building control requirements and then at two we do not understand why they will not accept the simple

00:45:50 they will not accept the simple calculation we have put forward as this is a standard format in our industry not to mention the standard method

00:45:57 method in the hvca industry now um do we take it that there was in in fact no additional testing done by psb to obtain these volume

00:46:10 psb to obtain these volume there was no additional testing done but i as i said i asked for the door areas that were all the same basically

00:46:21 areas that were all the same basically i asked for somebody to measure well i asked alan white to measure one of the doors give me the area and then based on the

00:46:31 velocity across the open door yes average velocity we'd be able to calculate what the volumetric was in meters cubed per second

00:46:39 second yes and i did do that and i also calculated how big the lobby was and i think it came out at 140 summer changes per hour yes and it was 10 that was required but 10 air changes is

00:46:50 10 air changes is again it's a nominal figure in a car park or an underground basement system it's a figure that you have to react to on an above ground system it's not someone that's mentioned i

00:47:02 it's not someone that's mentioned i understand and i understand you didn't understand why building control wanted these readings it was the first time it had ever been asked right so i didn't understand no can i just understand did you understand that it was volume readings for the

00:47:14 that it was volume readings for the volume of air across the stair door that was being requested or volume of air being extracted at the damper well it's one of the same thing whatever's coming through that stair

00:47:25 whatever's coming through that stair door

00:47:25 door if you work that out as a volumetric reading

00:47:28 reading that reading is going to equal what the two fans are extracting right because it's what goes in comes out you know so if you work out the door volumetric reading that's what the fans are doing

00:47:40 reading that's what the fans are doing yeah now um the sca guide um looking at that list at 9.6 again this is rbk402932 page 59

00:48:04 rbk40s yes thank you the second bullet point is to check that the fans were operating

00:48:10 operating at the same times as the opening of the dampers measure its performance and check against the design value now paragraphs 72 and 73 of your first statement you explained that you

00:48:21 statement you explained that you connected the fans up to the master control panel and then you set a damper timer function is that correct yes and if we go back to the psb commissioning report this is psb

00:48:33 commissioning report this is psb 50224 at page 3.

00:48:41 in the final table we can see

00:48:46 in relation to fans it says towards the foot of the the final table two items up fans times five damage okay in the towards the right

00:48:57 damage okay in the towards the right pass

00:48:58 pass yes now there's no record of actual measurement of the fans here is there no the fans each fund when it's delivered has a fan data sheet the fan data sheets

00:49:10 has a fan data sheet the fan data sheets are left on the fans i checked the data sheets

00:49:12 sheets when i was checking the fans a to make sure that the fans were fire rated and then the data sheet the data sheets supplied also give you the fan velocities and volumetrics

00:49:25 the fan velocities and volumetrics that they're gonna they're gonna meet a set

00:49:29 set pressure and when you add the two together it's about five meters cube per second for us to get

00:49:38 get three three and a half meters cube per second at the door those fans must have been achieving that level of

00:49:46 level of extraction rate otherwise we would never got the figures so the figures that you get at the door match the

00:49:52 match the added together figures of the extract fans at level two and roof yes i see but just to be clear did you actually ever measure the actual fan performance yourself

00:50:03 yourself at the grills and at the dampers and other doors effectively right i see so you're saying the tests you did effectively did measure that well it's it's giving you the same results yeah where was that recorded if anywhere on

00:50:14 where was that recorded if anywhere on that sheet that says the fan velocities at the door and at the grills at low speed high speed and environmental i see so because you've got the meters per second

00:50:25 you've got the meters per second readings the fans are also uh chartered in meters per second right as a velocity through a set diameter which they can then calculate into a known

00:50:36 then calculate into a known cubit meters per second yeah now um you tell us in paragraph 81 of your statement that you checked that the hmi panel was displaying that the fans were running

00:50:49 displaying that the fans were running and on which level smoke had been detected

00:50:52 detected and then in the next paragraph you tell us that mr doyle checked that the fireman's override switch on each floor was working can you just explain to us how did he check that that switch was working on each floor

00:51:03 switch was working on each floor well initially when we were dead testing the system i'd be at the control panel or out station

00:51:11 station gary had turned the switch say right it's on

00:51:14 it's on i'd look to make sure that it could change state from open to closed he would then turn it back i would check that it changed state from close to open that's dead testing then

00:51:25 close to open that's dead testing then once you've started powering the system up

00:51:28 up we would activate a smoke detector on the say level one would then go up to level two turn the key switch and make sure that it changed from venting on level one

00:51:39 on level one to level two yes so that's you just you're duplicating the tests you do multiple times yeah but you're duplicating it to make sure that the software is correct yes now the next check that

00:51:52 yes now the next check that the sca guide recommends is check the automatic changeover is operational for the secondary power supply

00:52:01 supply now did you ever make sure that the automatic changeover was operational for the standby fan either at roof level or level two for all fans at all speeds at all levels

00:52:14 for all fans at all speeds at all levels in fire mode and in environmental and that was demonstrated on the final demo added in april so basically we had the fans running we had the system in fire with a fire activation at level one

00:52:28 with a fire activation at level one and then the rjk or rbk whether it was electrical guy switched off the primary power

00:52:34 power and the system went over to secondary power and carried on in fire mode we also did the same thing at roof level and we did it in environmental mode to

00:52:45 and we did it in environmental mode to then switch on the secondary supply at both levels when we then instigated a fire signal we also

00:52:53 also checked that when the main fan at rule 4 ground at well level two if that fan stopped working by simulating no power that the

00:53:06 by simulating no power that the backup fan initiated and started running and were you actually at that point were you when you were doing this towards the end of the process were you actually able to see whether the backup fan

00:53:17 the backup fan had started at level two you could yeah i was up at level a level two doing it and then upon roof doing it now pressure switches the sca guide also

00:53:28 now pressure switches the sca guide also requires that where applicable the operation and function of the pressure sensor should also be checked and you tell us in your statement that you tested a number of different components

00:53:39 different components first you say that you check the pressure switch was mounted correctly in the staircase and the lobby and that it was connected properly

00:53:48 and you say you also checked if the pressure switch activated if the air resistance changed by means of sucking air through a piece of pipe and attaching that to part of the pressure switch is that correct

00:54:00 switch is that correct it is yet does sucking air through the pipe enable the calibration of the switch to be checked no but and you don't it's when you say sucking air it's a very very very just

00:54:13 it's a very very very just without even a closed mouth around the tube so if you you can't just do it too hard because you could damage it so it's it's the lightest possible pressure or vacuum applied

00:54:25 pressure or vacuum applied if it doesn't activate and we don't see it change state then obviously they've got the pipes the wrong way around so they've got the negative side on the stairwell and the positive side in the

00:54:36 stairwell and the positive side in the lobby by a mistake just in case of making sure that they were all piped up the right way yes yes i understand and then once you've got past the point where you've actually got power opening and closing the door simulates

00:54:48 opening and closing the door simulates exactly the same thing yes so you just double all the time you just check in and check in and check it yeah

00:54:54 yeah the point that you've anticipated the point i wanted to put to you because dr lane notes that the manufacturer's recommendation for the pressure switch says that the switch will be damaged subjected to excessive pressure

00:55:06 subjected to excessive pressure do not test the unit by blowing into the inlet ports that's what the manufacturer's literature says i don't i don't put my lips around the tube and blow as hard as i can

00:55:16 i can or soak as hard as i can i literally do that

00:55:20 that and it's not actually in my mouth it's in front of my mouth and i'm creating one pascal is you know so it's i'm not stupid

00:55:29 stupid yes there isn't a device out there that can simulate it that's the problem the manufacturers tell you don't this don't do that but they don't give you the device that can test them yes now just in terms of checking other

00:55:42 yes now just in terms of checking other individual items and the wiring um if we go to paragraph 36 of your first witness statement on page seven

00:55:54 in paragraphs 36 and 37 you explain that during the second stage of your visits you identified each individual item of equipment and checked it was wired correctly and that was done using the board

00:56:06 and that was done using the board assignment sheets is that right yes now can we just be clear did you check

00:56:11 check every item of electrical equipment or just a selection no everything so that's the card the connections between the cards the connections between the floor below and above if if necessary

00:56:24 and above if if necessary uh all the pressure sensors all the fireman's override switches all the dampers all the smoke detectors yes there's nothing else on it to check can we agree that the commissioning records

00:56:35 records don't show that you tested each electrical device so that would be all 24 pressure switches 26 yellow key switches the operation of the hmi panel for example should that have been recorded

00:56:47 example should that have been recorded it is recorded it says pressure switch 01 to 24

00:56:52 01 to 24 tested operate okay right well that's you know i mean yeah i could have done better and i could have highlighted 24 switches a single line per switch you know what i mean and and 24 fos is a

00:57:05 you know what i mean and and 24 fos is a single line per switch it had been a 100 pages document that i was given a very short time in which to get this back to the client for them to be able to present it to

00:57:16 for them to be able to present it to building control normally it would have not has been the final document would not have been as concise as the one that was yes but it does actually say on there

00:57:29 yes but it does actually say on there and and if you look at the latter pages it says

00:57:32 it says uh primary and secondary supplies tried maine and backup fans tried in you know under failure

00:57:45 now one of the things that's been noted about psdb's documentation is that in technical submission revision six

00:57:55 six um that indicated that the fireman's override switches were to be installed in the stairwell on each level but on the p on psb's electrical schematic

00:58:08 on psb's electrical schematic they were shown in the lobbies now do you remember noticing that there was a discrepancy on the documents as to whether those yellow key

00:58:20 documents as to whether those yellow key switches

00:58:21 switches needed to be in the stairs or the lobby no i didn't didn't notice at the time because i'm reading a drawing that says it's in this lobby and it was just

00:58:32 it's in this lobby and it was just inside the edge of the door so literally as the door opened it was there and yes normally they are in the stairwell but there are sometimes when they put just inside the lobby

00:58:43 they put just inside the lobby for safety reasons we vandalism and stuff like that but now at the time i didn't notice it because it was where the schematic said it was yeah so you didn't notice that in the technical submission

00:58:54 notice that in the technical submission it was

00:58:55 it was said to be in the stairwell not until afterwards now and when you say not until afterwards when did you first notice that there was that discrepancy probably after the fire when i were reading through all the documents

00:59:06 reading through all the documents i see okay and did it ever occur to you that placing the switches in the lobbies rather than in the stairwell would make those switches particularly vulnerable to

00:59:16 to increase temperature from fire and smoke did that occur to you at the time it didn't but then having said that the switch was mounted just inside the door so if

00:59:27 so if the level that was on fire if the door was opened you would have had two meters a second of cold air blowing over it and i can understand what your point is that because this fire then encompassed

00:59:38 that because this fire then encompassed multiple levels it did create damage to the switches but i mean

00:59:44 i mean it damaged everything else concrete floors everything yes i see now some questions about checking power supply and control panels now um if we look at paragraph 46 of your

00:59:56 um if we look at paragraph 46 of your first statement on page nine

01:00:06 this is about applying power to the system you said the next step was to get a power supply to the master control panel located in the hub room and start the system operating through the out stations and

01:00:18 operating through the out stations and if you go to paragraph 62 of your statement on page 11

01:00:25 you say that you in this paragraph you tell us

01:00:28 tell us the next step was to check the connectors to the inverter panels which controlled the speed of the fans to make sure they were receiving the correct power supply

01:00:39 and you tell us um in the following paragraphs that you then connected the master control panel and connected and supplied panel to the plc unit and the hmi panel

01:00:49 hmi panel did you ever check the system's secondary

01:00:52 secondary power supply yes turn the primary off and as part of doing that did you check that all the 24 out stations and both fans were operating and

01:01:04 and both fans were operating and providing the required volume rate of extraction under that secondary power supply yes but what you've got to remember is there's not just the primary and second reply that supply

01:01:15 the primary and second reply that supply that are referred to a 400 volt for the fans so that's a primary and secondary supply within its own right

01:01:23 own right that was at roof level and the hub room inverter panels there was also battery backups within the inverter panels to the master control panel and then battery backups every other

01:01:35 and then battery backups every other floor

01:01:36 floor for the outstations yes i see so there was multiple reserve supplies it was more redundant supplies available in the event that you

01:01:47 supplies available in the event that you lost power at one battery backup unit you would still get power to the other two from the other two above and below it yes but the main power supply was for the inverters the fans yes and

01:02:00 was for the inverters the fans yes and all these were monitored yes now the british standard 12101 part 6 requires that all doors to the depressurization zone so

01:02:11 doors to the depressurization zone so here that would be all doors to the lobby

01:02:14 lobby shall be self-closing yes did you ever ask whether all the doors to the lobbies were self-closing or perform any kind of checks of that

01:02:26 perform any kind of checks of that all the stair doors had closes on not all of the doors closed properly so i did report that fact too uh probably alan white when you say

01:02:37 uh probably alan white when you say pausing there not all of the stair doors closed properly they closed but they might be

01:02:41 might be just on the edge of closing because you know it could have been a bit of a seal or a yes do you remember how many doors you reported that that problem there weren't that many on the stair doors possibly

01:02:52 many on the stair doors possibly two and what about flat doors did you ever ask anybody whether the flat doors were all self-closing no we were never we were asked from day one not to

01:03:03 one not to upset residents basically so i wouldn't knock on somebody's door and open it and then see if it closed on its own unfortunately what i can say is there were numerous doors of numerous types

01:03:15 doors of numerous types throughout the building they should have all been fired us but that again is i'm commissioning the system not the building yeah now the shafts and the the the builders

01:03:26 now the shafts and the the the builders shafts that um the air flows through the north and south shaft and indeed the ductwork the new duct work at lower levels

01:03:36 levels um did you in terms of the existing builders work shafts did you ever check whether there had been any previous testing

01:03:43 testing which had determined the leakage rate of the shafts no that testing should have been done by the people that installed the ductwork whenever installed and as for the existing builders work

01:03:55 and as for the existing builders work shafts from four upwards the the shafts were inside apartments they weren't external they were not something that i could look at apart

01:04:06 something that i could look at apart from

01:04:07 from up at the top and by going up onto the roof lifting the cover off i could look down through the fan and it's not really telling me a great deal could you have done any tests to measure the leakage of the shafts as

01:04:18 measure the leakage of the shafts as part of the commissioning of the system not on that system not easily no no i mean the only the only thing is if you've got a lot of leakage on those shafts then

01:04:30 a lot of leakage on those shafts then you won't get the velocities on the doors you won't get the velocities on the grills so you won't achieve the readings that you're required to achieve you just won't get it

01:04:46 yes i see okay now in terms of changes to the design the british standard bs 47346 part 8

01:04:57 the british standard bs 47346 part 8 that we looked at earlier says that during the commissioning the entire system should be inspected and tested

01:05:03 tested including to ensure that no changes to the building have occurred since the time of the agreed design which might compromise the system's conformity were you aware of the need to look out

01:05:14 were you aware of the need to look out for any changes which might affect the system's performance as far as i was aware the system that was installed when i visited

01:05:25 visited site was the design system i.e the changes from level three down through to one and ground as far as i was on you know my understanding was is those

01:05:37 you know my understanding was is those design changes were part of the design system so no i had no reason to suspect that they caused a problem i see if we go to psb four zeros one

01:05:48 i see if we go to psb four zeros one one one three

01:05:56 this is an internal psb email to you from michael glowacki to you on the 25th of april 2016

01:06:07 to you on the 25th of april 2016 and he what he's doing in this email is informing you about certain um environmental program changes

01:06:18 environmental program changes that were being provided to you so he said pre-find attached files before you download programs please make sure that environmental node is not active or you may burn the environmental fan

01:06:29 or you may burn the environmental fan motor

01:06:30 motor you'll have to set up environmental sequence and environmental fan speeds so he's giving you various changes to the environmental um program system

01:06:44 um program system is it correct to say that these changes are not reflected in psb's commissioning report the modifications box in that report is empty

01:06:56 but we know from the documents that a new environmental programming and a new environmental fan inverter was installed at grenfell tower immediately prior to the formal commissioning process

01:07:07 commissioning process did you ever consider would those change it whether those changes to the previously agreed design would affect the system in any way the changes were the

01:07:18 the changes were the speed control on the environmental fan was a fixed speed and unfortunately when they installed it they didn't install attenuation so with that fan running at fixed speed

01:07:31 so with that fan running at fixed speed full speed in environmental mode it was far far far too noisy

01:07:36 too noisy so they asked us could we help them out and the only suggestion i had it was to fit an inverter on it and run it to much lower speed which had reduced the noise so

01:07:47 which had reduced the noise so the the change was purely on speed control it wasn't part of the system as such the rest of it more or less stayed the same as it it had been intended to be from the

01:07:58 it had been intended to be from the beginning

01:08:00 beginning as far as i was aware the environmental system was part of the system when i first went yes i see so you didn't think that these changes needed amendments to be made to

01:08:11 changes needed amendments to be made to the commissioning documentation

01:08:14 potentially you could have done but at the end of the day it would just speed control it wasn't the way it worked it was still environmental system from a temperature control a supply from

01:08:25 from a temperature control a supply from bms

01:08:26 bms and operating dampers on multiple floors for

01:08:29 for a set period of time between certain times of the day yes can we look at um a tmo document now tmo10021425

01:08:49 we can see what this is is a call out um repair visit certificate from allied protection who by this point were in may 2017. we can see that's the date

01:09:00 in may 2017. we can see that's the date of this document they were maintaining the system and it was a call out to grenfell tower about a loose coil in the roof

01:09:09 the roof area um

01:09:12 area um if we read it it says um under details of any deviation from the working system grenfell tower call out fp cable is coiled up in the ceiling are

01:09:23 fp cable is coiled up in the ceiling are waiting for a smoke detector to be fitted by other engineers from another company

01:09:28 company so it would appear that there was some kind of coil which was waiting for a smoke detector to be fitted to it can can you just help i know this is a

01:09:41 can can you just help i know this is a wasp

01:09:41 wasp it was a coil of fp cable that was at the top of the stair that took you to the lift room and it was sat on a beam and it it had been there for

01:09:52 been there for quite a while right assumption being is it it might have at some point been something to do with the existing fire alarm system or the lift fire alarm system it was nothing to do with the psp system

01:10:04 it was nothing to do with the psp system okay

01:10:05 okay there was also a second coil in the roof fan room

01:10:08 fan room yes that was next to the fans that was originally intended to operate the shutoff damper at roof level which was never installed yes

01:10:18 yes okay that's helpful so you do remember that cable i remember that cable i saw it a few times yeah yeah did you ever ask for it to be removed if it was nothing to do with the new system nothing to do with no i

01:10:29 the new system nothing to do with no i see

01:10:30 see um mr chairman i anticipate i've got about 10 minutes left of questions till the end of my questions i'm in your hands as to what we do i could ask well i think if you can finish your questions in 10 minutes it

01:10:41 finish your questions in 10 minutes it would be sensible to do that so i'll just keep going for now thank you if you mean 10 minutes uh i'll try um so now i i want to go to to ask you some

01:10:54 so now i i want to go to to ask you some questions about the the demonstration that was done on the system on the 28th of april 2016 if we go to paragraph 112 of your first witness statement on page 19.

01:11:10 you tell us that you recall that you attended grenfell tower on the 26th to the 28th of april 2016 to carry out final checks of the system and formally hand it over to alan white

01:11:21 and formally hand it over to alan white of j s wright and then at the next paragraph on the 28th of april 2016 you're asked to attend a demonstration of the system this was organized at the request of js wright

01:11:32 wright so far as i was concerned this was an opportunity to demonstrate the system to psb's client j.s wright psb was also informed that representatives from building control would be present in the event a number of other persons

01:11:44 in the event a number of other persons were also present to the best of my recollection this demonstration included alan white from js wright representatives of ryden two people from the london fire brigade someone from the management company and

01:11:55 someone from the management company and at least one building control officer i cannot recall the names or job titles of these individuals and then in your second statement at paragraph 47 we don't need to turn it up you've clarified

01:12:07 you've clarified that having consi considered some documents from js wright you think that the attendees are more likely to have been basically the people you cite there but no one from building control is that correct

01:12:18 from building control is that correct yeah i mean i i was asked to do a demonstration on a certain day at a certain time and i was told loosely that certain people would be there

01:12:29 people would be there i believe there were a couple of ladies there from tmo whatever it's called there was a fire officer fire station manager and two fire officers who

01:12:40 officers who were also there looking at the dry rises i believe there was a couple of guys who were

01:12:48 were like caretakers and and they would be like keeping an eye on the system yeah there was a representative from ryden j.s wright i believe there was somebody from max ford it was about 11 to 12 people in

01:13:00 ford it was about 11 to 12 people in total

01:13:00 total yes i listed a few names then i genuinely thought one of the people that was going to be there was building control yes because that's the whole idea of the demo yeah

01:13:10 demo yeah and and if we go to paragraph 118 118 of your first statement page 20 now you say that um to show how the system was activated a cold smoke from a can was sprayed onto

01:13:22 cold smoke from a can was sprayed onto the smoke detector head in a common lobby

01:13:25 lobby those present were then able to see the system engage with the common lobby door closed captioning not

01:13:45 the available on a number of levels in that way can you remember roughly how many levels you demonstrated the system on

01:13:53 on somewhat like 1 7 11 16 and 23 right several levels and at some point on level one we tested the auto changeover on the main power the

01:14:05 auto changeover on the main power the 400 volt for the inverters and we did it again at roof level when we did the highest level we the primary supply off so that the secondary would kick in yeah

01:14:17 so that the secondary would kick in yeah and can you explain what was the reason behind the choice of some flaws and not others was there a rationale behind the selection or just a random

01:14:25 random just sample i just asked the client which floor do you want to do and if he says all 23 i'd do all 23. i see if he says do this one we'll go up six we'll go up six i do what i must basically yes

01:14:39 i do what i must basically yes now the the sca guide includes a requirement to carry out a cold smoke test

01:14:43 test if appropriate and then it says generally only for systems used to allow extended travel distances that's under 9.3.5 for mechanical shaft systems

01:14:54 systems now um pve a provider of cold smoke test equipment have explained that using a smoke machine can help evaluate the system's efficiency

01:15:05 efficiency and identify any dead spots in the system

01:15:08 system now did you ever consider using a cold smoke machine to test the system more thoroughly

01:15:19 to test the system more thoroughly it wasn't considered simply because the only way you could test it would be to carry the smoke machine into somebody's apartment

01:15:27 apartment set the smoke machine running close the door

01:15:30 door let it fill that apartment with smoke then

01:15:33 then open the door let it activate the detector and then open the stair door as though you're escaping and see how much escaped haunted stairs to do that in an occupied building it's

01:15:45 to do that in an occupied building it's probably very frightening if somebody walks out to their flat door and they're confronted with a lobby that's full of smoke

01:15:52 smoke was there ever any discussion about performing that kind of test i would have considered it quite dangerous under the circumstances right because our building control expert miss menzies has said that that was the

01:16:03 menzies has said that that was the common way she would have expected in an unoccupied building it can be done if you haven't got a cfd analysis then one way of proving it is take a smoke machine along and if it's a corridor system put it in

01:16:14 and if it's a corridor system put it in the corridor fill the corridor we smoke activate the detectors and make sure that it does what it's designed to do yeah well here we don't have a cfd analysis and we don't have this kind of more comprehensive smoke test

01:16:26 of more comprehensive smoke test but as far as you were concerned that was never discussed with you is that right

01:16:31 right the the the door velocities should suggest that smoke would not travel

01:16:38 travel in reverse direction towards the stair that that

01:16:41 that that velocity of two or three meters a second smoke

01:16:45 smoke can't travel against the wind effectively now the hmi panel in the lobby

01:16:53 lobby um did you demonstrate the various messages

01:16:56 messages on that hmi display panel to the fire brigade and did you explain to them what they all meant yes did you explain to them how the messages fire detected on level x and

01:17:08 messages fire detected on level x and fireman's override key available did you explain to them how they would appear on the hmi panel yes

01:17:18 did you show the fire brigade what to press on the touchscreen if those messages appeared yes and we activated it when we did the ground floor so i went through that

01:17:29 the ground floor so i went through that part of the process because that's the level we were on yes now if we can look at um dr lane's phase 2 report bla rp 2 5 0

01:17:42 bla rp 2 5 0 35 at page 287

01:17:48 i want to look at paragraph 7.10.14 so in this part of her report what dr lane has done is analyze the operation of the hmi panel and compared it with

01:17:59 of the hmi panel and compared it with the instructions that were provided and she notes that if a user inserted the key

01:18:05 the key in the hmi panel and turned the system from auto

01:18:09 from auto to on three options would appear as shown in figure 7.31 that's the fire brigade override screen and one issue that she identifies is

01:18:20 and one issue that she identifies is that the instructions do not indicate what each of these three options do and one says turn system off one says restart system one says go to individual floor control

01:18:31 one says go to individual floor control screen

01:18:33 screen and in particular if we then move on down the paragraphs at page 288 to paragraph

01:18:41 paragraph 7.10.17

01:18:44 7.10.17 what she's identified is that the instructions don't make clear that a user had to turn off the yellow key switch at the floor of operation where it had been

01:18:55 been manually operated by the fire service before another yellow key switch could be operated to change the floor of operation

01:19:05 operation and the instructions also don't explain that the yellow floor override switches took precedence over any manual control from the hmi panel itself

01:19:16 itself now first of all do you agree that that's how the system was designed to operate

01:19:22 operate yes and i explained that system to the fire brigade when when i was explaining it

01:19:27 it as i said we activated a smoke detector at ground level we then went outside the door i showed him on the screen where it said fireman's key famines override key

01:19:39 fireman's key famines override key available

01:19:40 available fire detector ground floor and then turn the key and that screen comes up with your three options yeah i explained option one turn system off option two

01:19:52 option one turn system off option two restart system yeah option three go to individual floor screen yeah tapped that screen and showed them that it then allowed them to vent from so many floors and then if you want

01:20:03 from so many floors and then if you want to be good at next bank floors you can you there's a little button at the bottom screen said next levels and did you explain that the yellow

01:20:12 yellow floor override switches would take precedence over any manual operation of that panel did you explain that yes and i also told them that if you left the key in you would also get a message on the hmi

01:20:24 you would also get a message on the hmi saying key activated i see and did did they under did you tell them

01:20:30 tell them that before another yellow key switch could be operated to change the floor they had to take out the key that had been operated on the first one well i've just said that but actually

01:20:41 well i've just said that but actually there should have only been one key one key that fits the hma and it's a different key and then one key on the the fire brigade can take

01:20:49 can take floor by floor i see if they put that key in and turn it and activate it you've got to turn it back before you can either use that screen or go to another floor and if you try to do it on another screen it'll send

01:21:01 do it on another screen it'll send it will give you a message says key switch active yes in general terms wasn't this quite a complex set of instructions and controls they're all they're all complex because the

01:21:12 the they want a system that can do of a lot if you know what i mean the the clients want a system that can do virtually everything so it's a complex system

01:21:24 so it's a complex system but again i asked the fire the fire station manager whatever he will i asked him did he need any more explanation yes doctor did anyone

01:21:36 yes doctor did anyone make available a written set of instructions if we're asked well we do have a set that we do issue normally or sometimes we do but the ones that were on

01:21:48 we do but the ones that were on the in the box where the hmi was at this particular place i believe was done by js right i might be wrong but i believe that they were and they would have asked us for some

01:21:59 and they would have asked us for some instructions so you think something was provided there was some instructions at the side of that box i've seen a photograph of it i don't know exactly what it said because it's a bit blurred right we've got those those have been analyzed

01:22:10 got those those have been analyzed they're very simple instructions yeah they may be they're just thinking that the fire brigade could probably be provided with sufficient instructions for them to go away and read them and think about them

01:22:21 away and read them and think about them and then

01:22:22 and then possibly come back and have another look i mean i discussed it with them went through it and i did say if you need any more information just give me a ring thank you dr lanes also explained in this section of a

01:22:34 also explained in this section of a report that if a user had turned the system

01:22:37 system off and then selected restart the system this would restart the system's fans and dampers on the original floor where fire was detected regardless of where a manual

01:22:48 of where a manual yellow key switch had been activated elsewhere again was that your understanding of how the system worked if she says it will like that then yes and yeah normally to restart it goes back to

01:22:59 back to where it began but was that something it doesn't sound like that was something that you would have explained during the demonstration of the system no possibly not now i try to keep it

01:23:10 no possibly not now i try to keep it reasonably because it's a complex system so i do try and keep it simple in the same way that when you're explaining it to the caretakers etc the environmental system don't make it too complicated

01:23:22 don't make it too complicated and always say there's a phone number there if you need us ring it yes

01:23:31 now you you say at paragraph 115 of your first statement that the this 28th of april 2016 demonstration was a detailed demonstration taking some time can you recall roughly how long did the

01:23:43 can you recall roughly how long did the demonstration take

01:23:47 hour hour and a half two hours i can't i really cannot remember but we were up and down the building several times we were up on the roof you know we were in the hub room we were

01:23:58 you know we were in the hub room we were on various levels uh then stood by the hmi discussing it i couldn't really say i mean it could have been an hour could have been two and we know that there was a second

01:24:09 and we know that there was a second demonstration for the building sometime later on the fifth of may 2016. if we look at psb 401129

01:24:27 so um we know that on the fifth of may um there was a demonstration um attended by alan white from js wright

01:24:38 by alan white from js wright matt cross smith from matt fordham and some testing being witnessed by paul hansen of building control and this is them

01:24:46 is them this is the emails they're exchanging the day before setting that up is it right that you were unable to attend this demonstration with building control

01:24:54 control yeah i was commissioned in another building is it usual for the commissioning engineer not to attend the visit

01:25:00 visit where the system is demonstrated to building control it's it's not normal normally i would do that demonstration as i said i thought i had on the 28th of april

01:25:11 had on the 28th of april i didn't realize that building control hadn't attended there was a lot of people there and i just assumed that

01:25:18 that the building control officer yes available did you otherwise meet with building control at any other time during the commissioning process not that i can remember

01:25:30 that i can remember then finally at training and maintenance um if we go to paragraph 150 of your first witness statement on page 25

01:25:43 you tell us in there that you returned to grenfell tower in may 2016 to provide some training on the operation of the system

01:25:50 system but you can't recall now precisely when that was um that that could be me just getting mixed up after the 28th of april i don't really remember going back

01:26:02 remember going back so i don't know why i've said that but i did do some training with caretakers so whether that was before or after that i don't know yes because in paragraph 48 of your second statement you say that

01:26:13 of your second statement you say that there was

01:26:14 there was a demonstration to staff from the tmo and we just wanted to ask whether you can recall who that was delivered to and what it involved i can't now

01:26:25 can't now no i believe there were two guys and two ladies i'm not sure one lady and two guys and i believe there were caretakers but what date i did that i really can't remember and were the lfb there at that time the

01:26:36 and were the lfb there at that time the fire began i don't think so no

01:26:42 yes and i think you've answered this because the term has just asked you but to your knowledge was the fire brigade ever provided with written instructions or a manual for the operation of the system

01:26:52 system either at the april demonstration or on any other occasion no they were given a verbal and visual demonstration at the end of april and obviously same again you just you

01:27:04 and obviously same again you just you know ask them if if you need anything any information just let us know we'll provide whatever you ask for yes now in paragraph 151 of your first statement on page 25 you'd say that in

01:27:16 statement on page 25 you'd say that in or around may 2016 the whit uk group sent a proposal to js wright for a maintenance contract but that this wasn't taken up is that correct as far as i'm aware yeah

01:27:27 correct as far as i'm aware yeah and you then tell us this is paragraph 152 for the transcript that psb were next contacted with a report of a potential fault on or around the 6th of june 2017

01:27:39 around the 6th of june 2017 and a quote was requested on the 12th of june 2017 and provided that same day and you've said there was no response to the quote

01:27:48 the quote were you involved at all with any response to that fault no that that would that would have gone through the whit uk uh part of the company which

01:27:59 whit uk uh part of the company which they do all the maintenance and servicing

01:28:01 servicing which by that time i wasn't even involved in anymore yes i used to be prior to that but it was run by uh richard thornley so now i had nothing to do with the quote apart

01:28:13 i had nothing to do with the quote apart from

01:28:14 from i know the original quote would have gone out for the maintenance contract in 2000

01:28:19 2000 yes 16 or whatever now we know that that fault

01:28:23 fault just before the fire was a fault with the environmental system working properly

01:28:30 in his evidence to us mr white of j.s wright has said that the environmental system may not have operated properly at that time because the air temperature wasn't high enough for it to activate

01:28:42 wasn't high enough for it to activate that's a paragraph 196. in your opinion knowing how the system worked is that a possible reason why the environmental system might not have been working it could have been but the environmental system you could turn

01:28:54 the environmental system you could turn it off you could set it to come on at eight in the morning turn it off at night you could select summer winter so if you selected that of the screen it won't matter what temperature it got to it won't activate now if there was a

01:29:05 to it won't activate now if there was a fault with the environmental aspect of the system to what extent could that have affected the system operating in its smoke control function not at all not at all

01:29:16 control function not at all not at all thank you

01:29:22 mr chairman i've come to the end of my question sorry slightly more than 10 minutes but i think it was worth doing in one run so perhaps if we could have the usual you will have a break yeah right

01:29:33 you will have a break yeah right and then that should be enough time to sweep up any additional questions i think so

01:29:36 think so yes thank you uh well mr partner we're going to have a break at this point we'll come back please at quarter four and at that point we'll see if council has any more questions that need to be put to you all right no

01:29:48 that need to be put to you all right no problem again while you're out please don't talk to anyone about your evidence nobody comes to see me no i don't think you'll have much of a chance but if you do don't take it thank

01:30:04 you right thank you of course to follow

01:46:37 would you ask mr partly to come back in please

01:46:53 okay

01:46:56 right mr partner we'll see if there's any more questions for you yes ms graham yes thank you yes just a couple of brief questions um earlier in your evidence you referred to the dampers as smoke dampers

01:47:08 to the dampers as smoke dampers did you ever ask yourself the question when you were doing the commissioning whether the dampers were rated as fire dampers fire and smoke dampers or smoke control dampers and what what

01:47:21 or smoke control dampers and what what did you think they were well the the gilbert's dampers supposedly wore smoke dampers and tested to three hours at 300 meters cube per hour

01:47:34 three hours at 300 meters cube per hour at 50 pascals or whatever so as far as i was concerned i've always understood that gilbert's dampers were smoke rated dampers when you say smoke rated do you mean smoke control well yeah for spot control

01:47:46 smoke control well yeah for spot control systems

01:47:47 systems yeah and did you understand there to be a difference between fire dampers fire and smoke dampers and smoke control dampers

01:47:54 dampers fire dampers tend to be

01:47:58 spring powered in one direction generally closed and they also the fire and smoke ones tend to have a an inbuilt thermostat set at about 80

01:48:09 an inbuilt thermostat set at about 80 degrees c so if they detect an increase in temperature the damper automatically closes

01:48:16 closes to shut off the compartment that's you know to stop fire spreading within duct working compartments basically yes thank you

01:48:24 thank you and um final question we talked about whether

01:48:28 whether um there was ever consideration of doing a more comprehensive smoke test and you talked about the fact that in some tests you might fill a compartment with smoke and then open the doors and and see

01:48:39 the doors and and see where the smoke paths were see whether dead ends

01:48:43 dead ends did you ever consider or did you discuss with anybody using a a void flat a flat that was empty say flat

01:48:50 flat i'm told flat 145 um you wouldn't know it was that flat but did you ever have a discussion with anybody about using a void flat for that purpose because you would

01:49:01 would to simulate a flat fire you would have to put the machine inside that flat then you'd have to fill it with smoke for a few minutes then effectively open the door as though you're escaping

01:49:12 you're escaping and trigger the detector and then open the stair door and at that point the fans will have ramped up to full speed and you would be able to look and see if any smoke got pulled out when the door was shut was any leaking back

01:49:24 was shut was any leaking back but again if you've got one flat that's empty on one level and five that are occupied if somebody came out with the occupied flat walked into a well of course a lobby full of smoke

01:49:36 well of course a lobby full of smoke yeah but you'd have to you'd have to make it a proper fire drill or some kind of fighter i think the the problem at grenfell was there was a little bit of

01:49:46 of i don't know i just got the impression that the

01:49:50 that the residents weren't happy with the amount of work that had been done and what they'd had to put up with over the previous two years whatever i don't know right and where did you form that impression from because i was asked not

01:50:01 impression from because i was asked not to upset anybody when i first went there you know try not to make residents unhappy by using lifts and things like that

01:50:09 that i see okay thank you very much mr partlow it just serves for me today thank you for attending today and assisting us with our investigations thank you for allowing me well mr partly i'd like to thank you

01:50:20 well mr partly i'd like to thank you very much on behalf of all the three members of the panel for your coming here today to give us your evidence it's really been very interesting and very helpful to hear what you have to tell us so your evidence is going to be very

01:50:32 your evidence is going to be very helpful thank you and we are very grateful to you for coming along so thank you very much and you're now free to go thank you very much thank you very much off you go with the other

01:50:43 other thank you

01:50:54 well thank you very much it's strange now we that probably is all we have for today is that right that's it more smoke control witnesses tomorrow well we should look forward to that thank you thank you very much and then we'll

01:51:06 we'll rise at that point and resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning thank you very much