Evidence from Matthew Allen, Building Control Manager at Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, examining building control responsibilities, fire safety knowledge, and regulatory compliance processes.
00:00:14 uh
00:00:18 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing
00:00:21 hearing today we're going to hear from another member of the rbkc building control office yes ms grogan
00:00:29 grogan yes good morning mr chairman it's john allen this morning yes thank you
00:00:46 i do solemnly sincerely truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give
00:00:51 give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much mr allen do sit down please make yourself comfortable thank you
00:01:03 yes good morning can you please give the inquiry your full name john stephen allen thank you very much for coming to give evidence today and to assist the inquiry with its
00:01:14 assist the inquiry with its investigations i'll be asking the questions today and if you have difficulty understanding anything i'm asking you please ask me to repeat the question or put it in a different way and if you feel you need a break at any
00:01:25 and if you feel you need a break at any point then do just let me know and also keep your voice up so that the transcribers can hear you and instead of just nodding if you could answer yes or no to any questions okay um you've made
00:01:39 okay um you've made two witness statements for the inquiry they're in a folder on your desk just there and they will also appear on the screen in front of you can i please take you to your first statement which is rbk3033930
00:01:57 it's dated 25th of november 2018 and if we could turn to page six
00:02:04 is that your signature yes it is um for the record you've also provided exhibits ja1 to ja4 with that statement uh and for the transcript only those
00:02:15 uh and for the transcript only those references are rbk three zeros five two four seven six rbk3052478
00:02:28 rbk3052479 and rbk3052480 have you read that statement recently yes can you confirm that the contents are true
00:02:40 are true you've also made a second statement for the inquiry i'm not going to ask you questions about that today and it is formally already in the inquiry record as it was referred to in phase one um and referenced in the
00:02:51 in phase one um and referenced in the phase one report so i'm going to start by asking you some questions about your qualifications and experience you set that out in paragraphs one to
00:03:02 you set that out in paragraphs one to four of your first witness statement on page one in summary you joined rbkc in 1996 as the assistant district surveyor is that right yes what professional experience did you
00:03:15 yes what professional experience did you have prior to that i was previously working at the london borough of england so i've worked for london borough of england and for spellford and borough council so i started as a trainee in 1982.
00:03:29 started as a trainee in 1982. so talking professional experience rather than academic qualifications are you
00:03:33 you uh yes your experience in building control um do you have any academic qualifications so can i just finish the last one sorry yes i started um and then worked way up to
00:03:43 to area manager looking after two area teams at under borough revealing from trainee and then went to spellform borough council in between but then joined in 1996.
00:03:55 but then joined in 1996. thank you um and what formal qualifications do you have so i have a bsc in building surveillance i have a master's degree in business
00:04:06 i have a master's degree in business administration and then surely come on to it there's some other technical qualifications to do
00:04:12 do with fire risk assessments and could you just set out what those are now
00:04:19 are now well as you're probably aware there's no qualification for a fire risk assessor but there's a something called the fire risk assessment certification scheme the tell abc i was working for rbkc at
00:04:31 the tell abc i was working for rbkc at the time
00:04:31 the time that's labc run that was through x over warrington i believe and i was also a peer reviewer so i peer reviewed other fire risk assessors work as well
00:04:41 as well thank you um you were a special projects manager
00:04:45 manager um within ibkc building control from 2009.
00:04:48 2009. yeah special projects and marketing manager actually but yeah and then building control manager from september 2013. yes i was actually appointed in the june
00:05:00 yes i was actually appointed in the june 2013 but there was a handover period so i formed this recovery i believe it was on the 1st of september 2013.
00:05:09 were you made redundant in june 2017 just before the fire i took voluntary redundancy i can expand on that if you wish
00:05:22 um well what was the reason for taking voluntary redundancy the um kensington and chelsea camden and westminster decided to opt for a tri-borough arrangement
00:05:34 tri-borough arrangement and the two other heads had already taken voluntary redundancy and i had applied for the voluntary redundancy i believe it was early june 2017
00:05:46 i believe it was early june 2017 6th of june and obviously the events happened and that was then put off um but i was still given the option to take voluntary redundancy which i did
00:05:58 voluntary redundancy which i did effectively in the march in 2018 so i wanted me to carry on um over that interim period and so you actually left your rule then uh march 2018 you say i left then i think
00:06:10 left then i think officially it might have been because i took time off in lieu so it may have been july june july you'd need i could provide that afterwards but around that time thank you are you still working
00:06:22 thank you are you still working in the building control industry in a similar role now no what is your job now don't have one presently i was
00:06:33 don't have one presently i was from may 2018 to um effectively august to the 7th to 2020 i worked for labc
00:06:45 to 2020 i worked for labc i started as a technical specialist in may 2018 you'll see there's an overlap there because i was allowed to although i carried on i was time off in lewis i could start in may 2018
00:06:58 lewis i could start in may 2018 and then i transferred to be learning and development lead so effectively like a course tutor for the level five diploma thank you um at the time of the grenfell
00:07:09 thank you um at the time of the grenfell refurbishment you were a member of rics yes sorry i forgot to mention that as well sorry um and just uh for the public what does rics stand for so a member of the royal institute of
00:07:20 so a member of the royal institute of chartered surveyors i believe i've been a member since 1990 so i forgot to mention that and at the time that was a requirement for the role of building control manager wasn't it
00:07:32 wasn't it i believe it was you'd need to check on what the requirement the entry requirements were i believe a professional qualification was required yeah
00:07:40 yeah were you a member of any other professional organizations at the time i can't recall at the moment and prior to the grenfell tower refurbishment did you
00:07:51 refurbishment did you ever have experience of working with rain screen cladding i would have done obviously i've been in building trail for a long time so there's going to be a lot of buildings i can't necessarily recall
00:08:02 can't necessarily recall once particularly at the moment but as far as myself leading projects in that period um 2009 to 2013 when i was a special
00:08:13 2009 to 2013 when i was a special projects manager that's when i had my own caseload other than that since probably 1995 i've managed
00:08:20 managed teams so although i wasn't hands-on dealing you know day in day out with a particular project obviously it would cover for projects
00:08:32 would cover for projects periodically and also respond to their problems questions queries in that time can you remember any specific special project in your time at rbkc that may
00:08:44 project in your time at rbkc that may have had acm rain screen clouding i can't but there may well have been there's a number of you're probably familiar there's the regulations don't necessarily differentiate in the aspects that you're
00:08:55 differentiate in the aspects that you're concerned with between refurbishment and new build so i've dealt with many high-rise residential buildings i don't believe the most recent ones did
00:09:07 i don't believe the most recent ones did have acm on them had you ever worked on a project that involved acm on a building over 18 meters probably but i
00:09:17 but i couldn't actually say now there's hundreds of different projects or sorry products maybe thousands uh what about
00:09:24 about pir insulation okay could i just confirm what you understand that to be so poly isocyanurate insulation so i would be
00:09:35 would be familiar on buildings over 18 meters probably i i can't recall i mean there's you deal with thousands and thousands of different products in your career as a building controlled officer so for me to
00:09:47 officer so for me to now try and remember which ones it'd be very difficult to say so what about phenolic insulation uh probably
00:09:56 probably moving on now to your role at rbkc um in terms of your special projects role between 29 2009 and 2013. um were you dealing with
00:10:07 2009 and 2013. um were you dealing with the special projects uh just by yourself or were you managing others dealing with no i didn't have any management responsibility what is a special project
00:10:18 what is a special project it's anything that you're given effectively so the role was and it's not defined the it would be mainly larger projects um so residential commercial i could
00:10:31 um so residential commercial i could give you some examples of the buildings i was dealing with at the time if it's helpful
00:10:35 helpful were they generally more complicated than the ordinary run of building control applications they tend to be more complicated and generally larger in value financial value
00:10:46 value financial value what qualified you to be the special projects manager due to length of experience and qualifications what i would also say is um there was
00:10:57 what i would also say is um there was element of some of the projects were given to to me by my uh by the head of building control at the time and then because i was the marketing manager as well it's very much about trying to
00:11:08 trying to basically win those projects as well so searching leads trying to do what you can talk to the applicants to try and you're aware that building controls in a competitive environment
00:11:19 competitive environment so try and win those projects for rbkc so that was my role as well and when you refer there to competition that's competition between building control uh operated by local
00:11:30 building control uh operated by local authorities and approved inspectors is that right because the customers have a choice uh in your role were you required to have a more advanced understanding of the building regulations and guidance
00:11:41 the building regulations and guidance than a building control surveyor or a senior surveyor you'd have to look at the job description i don't believe so
00:11:50 how many special projects would you usually be working on at any one time
00:11:57 probably maybe 20 to 30. it would be there would be a record probably rbkc would have had records i don't know if they backdated
00:12:08 records i don't know if they backdated but of caseload and workload and it'd also be easy to look on the database and see which ones have my name against them uh you were then promoted in 2013 to building control manager
00:12:20 building control manager yeah was that role purely managerial or were you still dealing with your own caseload
00:12:25 caseload initially i was dealing with these special projects and then i was asked to transfer those projects i had by my manager at the time to the team
00:12:37 by my manager at the time to the team when were you asked to transfer them it's i have got a note of it it's around so i took over september it's sometime between there and sort of december 13th
00:12:50 and sort of december 13th january um we'll come on to this later in more detail um but we know that you went to grenfell for a site visit in march 2016. was it the case that you would fill in
00:13:01 was it the case that you would fill in for surveyors from time to time in that way
00:13:03 way yeah mainly i paired the surveyors up to get cover
00:13:07 get cover so like everybody people have to have leave and that's sick from time to time so i paired the surveyors up so they would first of all really talk to their buddy
00:13:16 buddy that would be the system but of course those times in a small team where you have to cover um and i would do so if i had to
00:13:26 and so even though you're always managerial uh you'd still have to keep yourself up to date so that you could carry on project work on occasion yes just to get the criminology clear
00:13:37 yes just to get the criminology clear early on um from the documents and witness statements we can see that you were involved in the grenfell tower refurbishment project first in 2012 2013 yes is that right um briefly in 2014 around the submission
00:13:49 um briefly in 2014 around the submission of the full plans application correct um and then again for the site visit in 2016. yes moving on now to a new topic um which is the regulations and guidance
00:14:01 um which is the regulations and guidance at the time as a building control surveyor with over 20 years experience and head of building control
00:14:07 control from 2013 to 2018. can we take it that you're familiar with the requirements of schedule 1 part b of the building regulations 2010 correct and you'd also be familiar with the guidance in approved document b
00:14:19 the guidance in approved document b yes did you deal with part b of the building regulations and adb regularly as part of your role yes
00:14:26 yes what about parts b3 and b4 specifically yes
00:14:31 yes in terms of the guidance in adb on external fire spread can we go to clg [Music]
00:14:37 [Music] 50173 page 95.
00:14:42 so this is a copy of adb incorporating the 2007 and 2010 uh amendments and we see there on the right hand side at the bottom external wall construction paragraph
00:14:56 12.5 and it says there the external envelope of the building should not provide a medium for fire spread if it is likely to be a risk to health or safety the use of combustible materials in the cladding system and
00:15:07 materials in the cladding system and extensive cavities may present such a risk in tall buildings and then external walls should either meet the guidance given in paragraphs 12.6 to 12.9 or meet the performance criteria given in the bre report
00:15:19 criteria given in the bre report and that's br 135 for cladding systems using a full-scale test data from bs8414 or bs84142 and the total amount of combustible material may also be limited
00:15:31 combustible material may also be limited in practice by the provisions for space separation in section 13. um were you familiar with that passage of adb did you understand from
00:15:43 passage of adb did you understand from this at the time that adb contains two potential routes for compliance with the functional requirement of part b4 of the building regulations yes and any time during your involvement
00:15:54 yes and any time during your involvement with grenfell tower did you know which of these routes was followed no so you were never told no and you never asked no
00:16:06 moving on to paragraph 12.6 which is at the bottom of page 95 external surfaces the external surfaces of wool should meet and then over the page
00:16:18 meet and then over the page the provisions in diagram 40 where a mixed use building includes assembly and recreation purpose groups and the external surfaces of wall should meet the provisions in diagram 40c and then we move over the page again to
00:16:30 and then we move over the page again to page 97
00:16:32 page 97 where we see diagram 40 and looking in particular at 40e
00:16:40 there we see the requirement for a building that's more than one meters from a relevant boundary and there's guidance there that above 18 meters the external wall surface classification should be class naught
00:16:52 classification should be class naught or class b s3d2 or better did you know what these classifications meant at the time yes um could you elaborate please i would
00:17:03 um could you elaborate please i would well the definition for class o and the others are in the appendix in the approved document so i would thumb my approved document would be well thumbed
00:17:14 be well thumbed and i would thumb to that part of the guidance and read it so it's difficult for me to quote verbatim you'd be aware that there's a number of
00:17:21 number of classes and the like within it but uh it'd be difficult to actually quote that now but
00:17:26 now but if you want to go to it i'll happily lead you through it if you wish i don't think we need to go to it right now but we might come back to it later at the time did you have a view of what
00:17:37 at the time did you have a view of what external surfaces of walls as referred to in paragraph 12.6 meant i did and what was that view it was very much around the external
00:17:48 it was very much around the external surface
00:17:50 surface needed to achieve classo apart from the bit below which in the diagram below 18 meters could be class c i believe it is and would that be just the surface of the product use
00:18:01 be just the surface of the product use or the entirety of the product well if we talk about the weather protection so just in simple terms that is class o and then i'm sure we're
00:18:13 that is class o and then i'm sure we're going to come on later the thermal insulation needs to be materials of limited combustibility i don't believe the external skin is ever regarded i know you had an
00:18:24 skin is ever regarded i know you had an expert here with insulation background but i don't believe the external skin is ever regarded as insulation and you're probably aware apart from the changes to the requiring
00:18:35 changes to the requiring materials of um to be non-combustible in later versions the regulations you're probably aware that the government have changed
00:18:42 changed and added particular clauses into the description of what the external wall surfaces and also for materials of the insulation products they've added about the the filler
00:18:54 they've added about the the filler in acm for example so that's an addition they've added to the later uh proof document b which is now volume one um but at the time you didn't think that
00:19:05 um but at the time you didn't think that for example the core of an acm panel would be filler i regarded that that outside if i was asked and i wasn't asked but in you said what was my understand at the time if i was asked i would have said
00:19:16 time if i was asked i would have said that the
00:19:17 that the external weathering needed to achieve class o
00:19:21 class o and then the insulation inside you know that's
00:19:25 that's pinned to the inside leaf would need to be materials of limited combustibility you say there you weren't asked do you mean by the project team on grenfell by anybody i wasn't asked by my ability
00:19:36 by anybody i wasn't asked by my ability control team or anybody technically you know on the project anybody as far as i know we'll come back to that later
00:19:45 later um in your work as a building control surveyor a manager of special projects so
00:19:51 so um the earlier period up to 2013 was it your experience that b4 mainly came up in the context of space separation
00:20:01 uh no it comes up whether it's relevant uh back to page 96 then um of adb and paragraph 12.7
00:20:15 in a building with a story of 18 meters or more above ground level any insulation product filler material not including gasket sealants and similar etc used in the external wall construction should be of limited
00:20:27 construction should be of limited combustibility um what do you understand the phrase limited combustibility to mean well again there's a definition in the appendix so
00:20:38 appendix so you know i'd i can't uh recall the whole of the document and it'll be wrong i don't think anybody has a photographic memory the important thing in building control is know where to look
00:20:49 control is know where to look so it's know what you know and if you know it say it if you don't look it up if you don't know what it is ask for help you know um can we just go to the definition it's on page 132 of this document
00:21:06 and we see there that's table a7 use and definitions of materials of limited combustibility is that the table you're referring to not just the table there's a glossary of terms
00:21:17 terms so you may come onto it later on but things like cavity barriers and fire stop i know you've there's been quite a lot to talk about those but there's definitions in the glossary of terms if you can't
00:21:29 in the glossary of terms if you can't recall the appendix it might be h or j the back of the approved document anyhow you can perhaps look at it at some point and are you sure that at the time you
00:21:40 and are you sure that at the time you understood what limited combustibility meant and that's not something you've come to understand later it's always difficult i've had a pretty good understanding of the regulations in all of my time and if i was dealing
00:21:52 in all of my time and if i was dealing with a particular project that asked for it then i would if i didn't know i'd look it up so it was your normal practice to regularly refer back to absolutely building regulations in adb absolutely on every project
00:22:04 absolutely on every project well the nature of dealing with building control you're not dealing necessarily the same
00:22:09 the same projects all the time you know they vary and there's different aspects you need to look at so you need to know what the range is and you would go through at certain times cover to cover but you wouldn't actually read cover to
00:22:21 but you wouldn't actually read cover to cover every day you know so you refer to it the guidance can be complex and you can look in different parts and it can give conflicting views but
00:22:32 conflicting views but that's experience so in terms of paragraph
00:22:36 paragraph 12.7 do you agree that it applies to insulation installed as part of a rain screen cladding system could you just go back to 12.7 again yes that's fine that's page 96. it does products with an insulating core
00:22:50 it does products with an insulating core such as window infill panels yes insulating materials packed behind window surrounds yes insulating materials packed into any cavities created by an overclouding
00:23:01 cavities created by an overclouding scheme
00:23:04 um depends what the cavities are so if you was talking about say the cavity of the void between the acm i'd say no but if you're talking about just general packing of insulation yes
00:23:15 packing of insulation yes i need to see a drawing what you was talking about but sounds like yes and in grenfell i'm not sure if you were aware that the windows were moved out and gaps were created
00:23:26 created by the new windows would you say that 12.7 applied to the insulation in those gaps i wasn't aware at the time of that obviously i am aware since so my knowledge is such that the windows
00:23:37 my knowledge is such that the windows were moved out i didn't know at the time why weren't you aware of it at the time i wasn't primarily dealing with the project
00:23:48 and we've discussed the core of an ac acm panel already um and just to be clear you wouldn't have thought that 12.7 applied at the time no that was my
00:23:59 applied at the time no that was my understanding at the time i don't know where i've got my understanding from i know a couple of other witnesses that sat in this chair have said a similar thing um i haven't tested it with my peers in between the periods i thought it'd be
00:24:10 between the periods i thought it'd be unfair to
00:24:11 unfair to to do that and you know put them under pressure to say one or the other so i'm saying that to you now would you expect your surveyors um to have formed similar views about
00:24:23 um to have formed similar views about both 12.6 and 12.7 i would have expressed yeah i felt a commonly held view
00:24:30 and do you agree that when a building has a story with a floor level over 18 meters in height the paragraph 12.7 of adb applies to the whole of the external wall i do unlike the with the acm where
00:24:42 i do unlike the with the acm where there's a
00:24:42 there's a it allows a differentiation for the lower parts below 18 meters if it's more than a meter away from any boundary i don't know if grenfell was more than a meter away from another building but let's assume it was
00:24:53 assume it was you could have a lower class including i think it says nine millimeter timber cladding and when you were the surveyor for
00:25:01 for grenafell so 2012 2013 um you didn't feel you had the need to investigate that particular thing yeah so the time you're talking about this was
00:25:10 was pre-application advice there wasn't a building regulation application in 2012 or 2013.
00:25:16 or 2013. there are records they are pre-application records and that wouldn't involve then general consideration of the scheme as a whole is that what you're saying pre-application we're generally responding to what
00:25:28 we're generally responding to what people are asking us about so they could come and say we've got eight which they did my first involvement or if you're going to talk about this and we will come back to it later um in more detail but just to get an
00:25:39 more detail but just to get an understanding of what you yeah so i believe my first context yeah my first involvement was there was a question about the smoke ventilation system
00:25:48 system and that was what they wanted to ask so you wouldn't then one there wouldn't be any details you wouldn't just start talking about the whole of the building regulations that applied to the whole of grenfell was responding to
00:26:00 the whole of grenfell was responding to the particular question that they had we will come back to that in more detail later later on today um i now just want to look briefly at what adb says about cavity barriers
00:26:12 at what adb says about cavity barriers so that's 12.8 on page 96. cavity barriers should be provided in accordance with section 9 and then if we go to section 9 which is on page 82
00:26:23 on page 82 um and diagram 33 in particular um did you understand at the time of your work on grenfell tower that cavity barriers were required in the cladding i would have yeah i did
00:26:37 i would have yeah i did at the lines of compartment floors and walls yes
00:26:40 walls yes around openings such as windows yes at the junction at the top of the cladding at the crown um and did you understand that there was a difference between fire stopping and cavity barriers in the
00:26:52 fire stopping and cavity barriers in the only cavity barriers were required inside the cladding system yes and it's explained
00:26:57 explained the definitions explained in the glossary at the back between a fire stop and a cavity barrier and again would you expect your surveyors so both senior level and ordinary surveyor level to have known that yes
00:27:09 that yes and can you recall in your experience of special projects whether you encountered a project with cavity barriers around the windows
00:27:18 um probably but mainly in new builds you may have
00:27:25 may have the around the window openings i mean it changes a bit with the change of the thermal values where you need a different material because of transferring thermal insulation but in more traditional construction
00:27:37 more traditional construction there wouldn't necessarily be a cavity there because it would be sealed with block work or brickwork or concrete or something
00:27:43 something so there wouldn't be a always in every project a
00:27:47 project a gap there in more recent times because of thermal transmittance values there's a cold bridge effect it reveals so there are sometimes more complicated details there but if the
00:28:00 complicated details there but if the requirement was needed a cavity barrier there then that function sorry that product would have to form the function of a cavity barrier as well
00:28:08 moving on now to end industry guidance were you familiar with br 135 at the time of your involvement in grenfell tower
00:28:16 tower i was but um from what we've heard recently the route was to go down the um previous following those previous paragraphs and not down to 135 routes
00:28:29 paragraphs and not down to 135 routes but we can talk about it is it something that you would be required to refer to regularly as part of your role not so much but if the applicant was choosing to
00:28:41 choosing to look at that route then you would obviously go down that route and would you have expected someone at surveyor or senior survey level to have been familiar with it too not necessarily because i would say most
00:28:52 not necessarily because i would say most times on most occasions people would go just down the route that we've mentioned following those paragraphs for the external weather surface and then the internal insulation
00:29:03 surface and then the internal insulation and now john hogan's evidence is that he had never read it does that surprise you he may not have had a he may not have had a project where it was required did you know at the time that
00:29:14 required did you know at the time that he didn't
00:29:15 he didn't we hadn't read br135 i i didn't but i did listen to john hogan's evidence and i think he said that he followed the earlier route so there wouldn't have been any reason for him to look at br135
00:29:28 did you ever take steps to check that surveyors in the team were familiar with industry publications like this and particularly one that's expressly referred to in adb it's referred to there's many references
00:29:40 it's referred to there's many references in the approved documents many british standards you would refer to them when you need to refer to them um i think you covered it previously but kensington chelsea paid for i ihs or
00:29:51 kensington chelsea paid for i ihs or technical indices which is an online um we paid for an online database effect so we had access to every single piece of legislation not every authority
00:30:02 piece of legislation not every authority would have that but we did so if there was a piece of legislation that you was unfamiliar with he didn't come onto it you could call it up now mr hoban's evidence was um that he was looking at the linear
00:30:14 um that he was looking at the linear route
00:30:15 route under adb but he also referred to the other routes to compliance and we also heard that the celetex insulation product literature referred to an eight four one four test so in those circumstances would you have
00:30:26 so in those circumstances would you have expected john hoban to go away and look at br135
00:30:33 could you i'm a bit confused i thought he was following as you call it the linear route so if he's following the linear route he followed the linear route his his knowledge of the other routes wouldn't have been applicable on this
00:30:45 wouldn't have been applicable on this project
00:30:46 project but if was your question if celetex referred to the 8414 test yes so the product literature for celatex which mr hoban says he looked up referred to an eight four one
00:30:57 looked up referred to an eight four one four test yeah so he could have then looked up the 8414 test and he'd had access to that if he needed to
00:31:04 needed to but in those circles you say he could have is that something you would have expected him to do um it would be usual and it's usual for building control to interrogate the data
00:31:17 building control to interrogate the data and it'll be a normal thing to do so it wouldn't be a case of accepting any product on any building unless your prior knowledge and experience is acceptable so it'd be normal to ask for the product
00:31:29 so it'd be normal to ask for the product details and then follow that through to make sure
00:31:32 make sure that the product that's been specified is the one that's mentioned in the certificate and that the what's been tested in the certificate is the performance you're expecting as
00:31:44 is the performance you're expecting as laid down in the building regulations so so just to expand on that sometimes people mention a particular part of a test but that's not the part of the test you're looking for just going back to my
00:31:55 looking for just going back to my question
00:31:56 question would you have expected mr hoban to red br135 not necessarily even where he was following um the process you've just described of
00:32:09 the process you've just described of checking
00:32:10 checking whether an 8414 test was done the the thread here and i'm if he's following the linear route and we're now talking about a i mean i haven't got the
00:32:21 haven't got the product sheet up that you're talking about i'm just talking generally speaking
00:32:26 speaking if following the linear route there was a particular product so we'd look looking at the insulation satisfying materials limited combustibility needs to follow through that route to make sure that it achieves
00:32:38 that route to make sure that it achieves the if we go to the paragraph products and materials of limited combustibility we need to make sure he follows that through that the product certification satisfies that
00:32:50 product certification satisfies that standard
00:32:51 standard i can't say to you at this point whether reading vr135 is essential in understanding 841.4
00:33:01 but where celatex didn't follow 12.7 so it's not bacterial limited combustibility the alternative option is an eight four
00:33:12 the alternative option is an eight four one four ten yes um so putting the first the linear route to one side for a second um how could mr hoban have satisfied himself
00:33:22 himself and that it was compliant ultimately with the building regulations if he hadn't read the r135 okay so are you saying that he's not following
00:33:33 are you saying that he's not following the linear route he's following an alternative route mr hoban's evidence was that in the case of celetex
00:33:41 celetex he relied on a statement in the product literature that said it was suitable for buildings over 18 meters which itself referred to an 8414 test yeah but not br135 necessarily well it's applying the criteria in br135
00:33:53 well it's applying the criteria in br135 that's how you know whether or not it complies yes but we're going down the linear route still is where we're going i wonder if we're getting a bit we might be cross purpose i don't know i think are you going to
00:34:04 i don't know i think are you going to show mr allen the celetex data sheet at some point not necessarily this instant but uh i wasn't intending to because mr allen was not himself um involved in integrity i thought your
00:34:17 um involved in integrity i thought your question was if you were mr hoban looking at the celetex data sheet and seeing a reference to the s8414 and the r135
00:34:29 the s8414 and the r135 what should he have done as a result is that
00:34:32 that not the thrust of the question that is the thrust um and i was talking more in terms of general principles mr chairman of yeah but i think mr allen would find it easier to grapple with the question if he is
00:34:43 grapple with the question if he is a document that's all yes that's fine and i think that's where we're
00:34:50 thank you if i was checking it myself i would be looking at the installation as a material of limited combustibility so i'd go to the appendix in the backing approved document and the definition then i'll be looking for a product that
00:35:01 then i'll be looking for a product that satisfied
00:35:03 satisfied that material of limited combustibility test that's what i'll be looking for and if it didn't satisfy but it would be acceptable thank you um we can come back to the seller tech's
00:35:14 seller tech's product data sheet at another point if we need to when we're talking about the materials used in the facade if we go now to br135 it's bre-405554
00:35:31 if we go now to br135 it's bre-405554 uh and go to page seven
00:35:36 and there's a reference to in a picture from garnet court fire in irvine uh which is a far in a multi-story block in scotland in summer 1999 were you aware of that fire at the time i may have been
00:35:50 then if we move to page nine
00:35:55 um we can see they're both explained in the text and pictorially the mechanisms for rapid fire spread um do you recall reading these at around the time of the grenfell refurbishment
00:36:07 the time of the grenfell refurbishment no or in the past before that uh possibly i've generally read extensively but i i haven't got a exact
00:36:18 extensively but i i haven't got a exact recollection and what i knew at the time and what i know now is kind of all merged i don't know i haven't got a record of it do you agree that had you read these pages in the narrative and looked at the
00:36:29 pages in the narrative and looked at the diagram here you would have understood that cladding systems can create the opportunity for rapid unseen flame spread causing an unacceptable risk to the occupants no because i'd have known that already
00:36:44 this guidance warned that external cladding systems offer a potential route for fire spread through multi-story buildings
00:36:49 buildings and that close attention should be paid to the installation of cavity barriers to inhibit the spread of flame in the event of a fire involving an external cladding system were you aware of those general principles at the time of your work on
00:37:00 principles at the time of your work on grenfell tower
00:37:04 so well yes and how how did you become aware of them well obviously i've been in building control for a long time so any i read
00:37:17 so any i read building magazines rics magazines when i'm a building control when i was a building control manager i would go to meetings such as ldsa which is a group of all the heads of
00:37:28 which is a group of all the heads of building control in london that would meet monthly and anything that happens anywhere one of them will know about it and there's different expertise as well so there's a whole as well as
00:37:39 so there's a whole as well as training courses and you know there's lots of different avenues where you can learn about different types of events that happen and the other thing of course is
00:37:50 and the other thing of course is it's the role of governments as well and most building legislation as you're aware
00:37:55 aware has been written as a result of disasters and accidents in the past hence the district survivors association after the great fire of london would you have expected your surveyors
00:38:07 would you have expected your surveyors to have the same level of knowledge and understanding as you well not the same but they're gonna you know
00:38:14 know at different levels yes and did they yes how do you know they did well i'd every confidence in the the team
00:38:24 team the surveyors that we've been talking about they were all employed before i was the building control manager they all had cpd we had various training i would meet with them monthly and
00:38:36 i would meet with them monthly and indeed weekly they would talk to me about any issues they have i'd go out on site with them i'd check plans with them if they asked me to
00:38:47 me to the guidance available for the majority of the period of the grenfell tower refurbishment project was set out in the 2013 edition of br135 and contains some further warnings let's just turn to this now which is cel40
00:39:02 and on page 11
00:39:05 paragraph 2.1 so that's on the left hand side
00:39:08 side this guidance drew attention to the rapid development of the market for clouding systems driven by the need to construct more energy efficient and sustainable buildings
00:39:18 buildings which had resulted in increased volumes of potentially combustible materials being used in external clouding applications is that something you were aware of at the time
00:39:29 the time probably you can't be sure well i've read extensively what i would say is
00:39:37 say is the guidance in the building regulations would change when the government deemed that there's a an issue that needs to be addressed through the building regulation process
00:39:49 through the building regulation process and it wouldn't be a case of an individual unilaterally acting in a way that's different to everybody else do you agree that someone reading this document um would have understood that
00:40:01 document um would have understood that cladding systems can create the opportunity for rapid unseen flame spread causing an unacceptable risk to the occupants yes and it is correct that this guidance warned that external cladding systems
00:40:12 warned that external cladding systems offer a potential route for fire spread through multi-story buildings and that close attention should be paid to the installation of cavity barriers to inhibit the spread of flame in the event of fire involving a cladding
00:40:23 event of fire involving a cladding system yes and it is also correct that it warned that a particular attention should be paid to the selection of insulation materials
00:40:31 materials yes were you personally aware of the need to pay particular attention to the selection of insulation materials yes
00:40:39 yes and would you expected a surveyor or senior surveyor to be aware of that too yes
00:40:44 yes moving on to the bca guidance are you familiar with the building control alliance
00:40:50 alliance i am i have read some of their documents in the past it's correct that it was in a pan industry group representing the building control sector providing useful guidance on the
00:41:01 providing useful guidance on the interpretation application of the building regulation it's guidance for uniformity predominantly between private building control and local authorities is it a document that local authority
00:41:12 is it a document that local authority building control surveyors should have been aware of at the time not should could be it's a its guidance document so their reference first of all would always be the building regulations
00:41:23 the building regulations and then you you know you spread out from there where you need to following whatever line of research you need to
00:41:34 line of research you need to uh if we look at cep3057294 this is guidance note produced by the bca entitled technical guidance note 18 use of combustible cladding materials in
00:41:46 use of combustible cladding materials in residential buildings um it's dated june 2014. are you familiar with this document i it looks familiar i believe i've read
00:41:57 i it looks familiar i believe i've read all of these documents previously obviously i've read them since as well which ones i read and what level of knowledge i had about them at the time what i would say is there isn't anything
00:42:08 isn't anything in there that's that different to what's in the building regulations but you may point some things out um were you notified of the existence of this document when it was published in july
00:42:19 document when it was published in july 2014.
00:42:20 2014. it's not that you're notified you wouldn't there's not like a a line that you would get it but there's documents i mentioned with um rbk to have access to like every document
00:42:31 document that's around um as i say there's different avenues where i get to hear about things there's not like an official um
00:42:42 if there was something structurally wrong there's this scott i think it's called alert you'd get informed of a structural problem um through the authority but there's not a similar thing with this where you get
00:42:53 similar thing with this where you get some
00:42:53 some automatic alert about it your inbox would be full if that was the case uh and would your answer also apply to when issue one of the guidance note was
00:43:04 when issue one of the guidance note was published in june 2015 yes did you read um this during your note
00:43:09 note during your work on the grenfell tower project
00:43:12 project i didn't john hoban told us that he was not familiar with it can you explain why surveyors in your department under your supervision were not familiar with technical guidance being issued by the bca they they would
00:43:25 being issued by the bca they they would be familiar with the what the content is so what the content is so they're familiar with the building regulations and this is a guidance note that i can't actually read it at this
00:43:37 that i can't actually read it at this level at the moment but um if there's a particular part you want to point out that you feel is different to the interpretation and i can i'll help you with it um we'll come to that in a second uh
00:43:49 um we'll come to that in a second uh just to answer my question can you account for why john hoban was not familiar with it well he's familiar with the building regulations which is what he's required to do
00:43:58 it doesn't mean every single guidance no a surveyor is going to be you know have an intimate knowledge of it
00:44:07 uh moving on uh to the later edition um if we go to cel402347 and we will zoom in on this one um it
00:44:18 and we will zoom in on this one um it was produced in june 2015 and under the heading key issues on page one at the first bullet point you just need to wait a moment um we see similar text there to the 2014
00:44:31 um we see similar text there to the 2014 edition which i knew but it is similar and it says thermo thermosetting insulins eg polyurethane polyisocyanurate polystyrene foam boards do not usually
00:44:42 polystyrene foam boards do not usually meet the limited combustibility requirements of adb 2 table a7 and should not be accepted as meeting adb paragraph 12.7 however if they are included as part of
00:44:53 however if they are included as part of a cladding system being tested the complete assembly may ultimately prove to be acceptable now we've heard your evidence you wouldn't have been specifically made aware when this document was published
00:45:05 aware when this document was published can you recall through your various ways of keeping up to date whether it was drawn to your attention by some other route at the time no but i would say there's nothing
00:45:17 no but i would say there's nothing that's different there than that's in the building regulations so the mention of poly isocyanurate in that passage i've just read to you that was a new addition in 2015 in the
00:45:28 that was a new addition in 2015 in the list of materials unlikely to meet 12.7 adb and were you aware that general industry understanding had been updated to include pir is not complying with 12.7 what i'd
00:45:41 pir is not complying with 12.7 what i'd say is if
00:45:41 say is if you're going down the linear routes you're checking whatever product comes in and products change all the time that's the nature of the industry so at that time when you receive whatever the product is it could
00:45:53 receive whatever the product is it could be a brand new product you would need to check whether it satisfies the requirements we've looked at earlier about being material limited combustibility and how would you check other than by
00:46:04 check other than by looking at industry guidance and well no you checked by asking for the certification through whatever board that was produced through and how it was tested
00:46:16 what steps did you personally take to ensure that you kept up to date with changes in industry guidance such as this
00:46:23 well such as this not necessarily i mean i've probably read them all at different times but as i say uh just so i was i'm a member of the rics
00:46:34 just so i was i'm a member of the rics so there's monthly magazines there's obviously a website we would have internal training i'd go on training courses i was mentioning about the member of the ldsa we would have staff would sometimes
00:46:46 we would have staff would sometimes raise issues in relation to something new they found out about and they would pass it on other colleagues would pass information on so there's lots of different routes for keeping up to date with information and of course the government
00:46:58 information and of course the government as well the legislation changes so the government that you know about as currently is the case the changes to legislation that's on so you read those the consultations and get getting
00:47:09 the consultations and get getting awareness of what the sort of line of travel is and can comment as well if need be and why not read this guidance uh when you were working on the grenfell project surely that was a good
00:47:20 project surely that was a good opportunity to familiarize yourself with specific guidance on external cladding systems
00:47:25 systems the at what part of the working on the project you're referring to well after this came out so that would be around the time of your site visit in 2016.
00:47:35 2016. yep so should we talk about the site visit
00:47:38 visit now hoard i will i do have specific questions for you about the detail of the site visit yes um but in terms of keeping yourself up to date with guidance if you knew you were going to site to look at a cladding project why not
00:47:50 look at a cladding project why not familiarize yourself with guidance at that point because the guidance in the building regulations is what i would follow and you're doing just to say so on this particular
00:48:01 particular products are changing all the time so there could well have been another new product that's been produced since this document was issued and that's okay people are allowed to have new products but what you do is
00:48:12 have new products but what you do is whatever the new product is you would ask for the test data for it and make sure that accords with the requirements the building regulations so just to summarize then is it your evidence that really the building
00:48:23 evidence that really the building regulations in adb are enough for the purposes of a surveyor and they don't need as a general rule to go looking at industry documents like this
00:48:33 this generally yes that's the answer yes but if the particular project they're looking at or the products or the systems because as you're aware the responsibility for compliance the
00:48:45 responsibility for compliance the building regulations relies with the people carrying out the work and it says with the approved documents they can either follow the guidance in the approved documents or choose any other route they wish and then it's the job of building control then to ascertain what tests and
00:48:57 control then to ascertain what tests and checks
00:49:00 you're going to ask them to follow if they're going to go down any other routes
00:49:04 routes and that's laid out obviously within the building regulations are the the you know the approved documents have you heard of the center for windows and cladding technology i have since i'm not sure i was at the
00:49:16 i have since i'm not sure i was at the time could you help me is it referred to in the building regulations or the approved documents
00:49:21 documents as a reference document um it was referred to in the specification for grenfell tower itself
00:49:29 itself i wouldn't have seen that and were you aware that the cwct produced guidance and technical notes relevant to the far performance of curtain walls and rain screens if it wasn't mentioned in the building regulations as a
00:49:40 building regulations as a route to compliance then i probably wouldn't have followed it and i'm not sure i was aware of it at the time moving on to the building control performance standards now mr hubbard has mentioned these in his
00:49:52 mr hubbard has mentioned these in his witness statement and we discussed those with him on thursday the standards were first published in 2006 and revised in july 2014. were you alerted to that update at
00:50:04 2014. were you alerted to that update at the time
00:50:05 the time i would have been aware of it again when you say alert there's not it doesn't automatically get sent to me but i'm aware of changes in legislation and i
00:50:15 and i would have been aware of it did you read the updated standards when they come out probably we've heard from mr hoban that there was an in-house seminar at rbkc when the performance standards first
00:50:26 when the performance standards first came out in 2006. do you recall that it would be it would be on the record so if it did happen i can't recall it at this moment in time but it'll be on the record but there was no similar
00:50:39 on the record but there was no similar in-house seminar when they were revised in july 2014. it wouldn't have been a requirement to have an in-house seminar every time there is a update on a particular document
00:50:50 document but it's not something at the time that you thought your surveyors needed some additional training about her a seminar about um it as i said i i can't recall
00:51:04 in carrying out your role as a building control officer on grenfell tower um so 2012 2013 and again in 2016 did you have in mind these standards
00:51:18 did you have in mind these standards well they're a basic part of building a control function so i would have done i want to look at these 24 18 standards with you now if we could go to clg one three zero six eight
00:51:32 one three zero six eight one four and then page four
00:51:39 um there it explains the standards and supporting guidance establishments just do we need to zoom in yes yes what is our current radio this we'll expand it yeah unless if you just wait to do it okay here we
00:51:51 if you just wait to do it okay here we go
00:51:52 go and so it's that top paragraph there the standards are supported by guidance as sorry the standards and supporting guidance establish the level of performance considered as a minimum in carrying out
00:52:03 considered as a minimum in carrying out those tasks so that a building control body's duties and responsibilities under the legislation are adequately discharged that means they set the minimum standards would you agree
00:52:14 standards would you agree well you need the guidance is is twofold it's
00:52:18 it's for to get a consistency across private building control local authority building control and you'll be aware that the guidance is mandatory under the cic for
00:52:29 under the cic for private building control and then it's sort of strongly recommended that local authorities also follow the guidance and further there's
00:52:40 follow the guidance and further there's there's some should bits within it and then there's some guidance so when you say should local authorities comply with it first of all depends whether the local authority has decided to comply with it
00:52:51 authority has decided to comply with it and the second thing is which bits of the document are you referring to so just answering my question looking at the text there it says the standards and supporting guidance established the level of performance
00:53:03 established the level of performance considered as a minimum so i said the standards are supported by guidance the standards and supporting guidance sorry if it's which bit you look accent it's the last sentence
00:53:17 establish the level of performance considered as a minimum in carrying out those tasks well in that particular paragraph it says considered as a minimum but as i say if you look elsewhere in the
00:53:28 say if you look elsewhere in the document it talks about the the control being main data for approved inspectors but not necessarily so it's
00:53:40 so it's the level of control is the first thing and then
00:53:43 and then this is a further level down you're talking about i think so a local authority could pick and choose which standards could you go to the there's some earlier
00:53:54 could you go to the there's some earlier text i think on this just where it talks about the cic and main data or maybe it's in the supporting covering letters to it
00:54:13 i don't think it's on that page it mentions about cic somewhere though and we'll find it later you can come back to that um but in general in general terms just
00:54:24 but in general in general terms just apart from establishing that which we'll come back to later in general terms most of what's in there is
00:54:30 is kind of fairly basic stuff really and at rbkc under your headship were you trying to comply with these guidance it would try to there's
00:54:41 guidance it would try to there's um we may come on to this it's been a while since i looked at it there's a clause about site inspections and i don't know if you're going to come into that
00:54:49 into that so be difficult for me to quote without it but the frequency of site inspections and how that's an element you're going to look at we'll come to that later and why don't we look at the standard that i'd like to take you to now which is on page nine
00:55:02 take you to now which is on page nine uh and that's standard about resources and in the standard box that's the green box
00:55:07 box it says their building control body shall deploy sufficient experienced and qualified staff with competitive competencies appropriate to the type of building control work undertaken and should ensure that suitable
00:55:18 and should ensure that suitable arrangements exist for cpd and in-service training of its technical staff and then the next paragraph building control body shall allocate sufficient resources to discharge its duties
00:55:29 discharge its duties having regard to its current and future workload complexity and location of work and changes in building regulations approved documents and other recognized guidance
00:55:38 guidance in your tenure as rbkc head of building control did you experience any difficulties in meeting this standard mainly no they'll be with a small team there are times when you're with a small
00:55:50 there are times when you're with a small team you can't guarantee the influx of work so unlike approved inspectors local authorities are required to take whatever application comes in it's not a case that you can refuse it people are fully
00:56:02 you can refuse it people are fully entitled to put an application in so there will be times as an office didn't happen very often or indeed for individual surveyors where there may be a sudden influx of
00:56:13 where there may be a sudden influx of work in a particular area which is normal kind of management but that would be fairly rare so generally the answer would be yes but there'll be other times you'd have to then manage that resource
00:56:24 to then manage that resource or plug the gaps or help out or do what you need to do to resolve those issues we'll look at some
00:56:31 some specifics later yeah uh if we go to standard five which is on page 13 uh and zoom in there again on the standard
00:56:41 standard um if you just read that box to yourself
00:56:53 yeah and then if we look at the guidance in the first paragraph below the standard
00:57:01 standard so are you going from standard to guidance now yes i am
00:57:08 um and it says there in the last sentence
00:57:12 sentence of that first paragraph a written opinion should be issued on all proposals submitted for assessment uh would that be a formal opinion or would advice by email suffice so this is guidance this isn't
00:57:24 suffice so this is guidance this isn't standard but
00:57:28 and just to remind me is this are we talking about all full plan applications here is this does this cover building notices as well do you know well that's um because sometimes sometimes sometimes instructions are
00:57:39 sometimes sometimes instructions are done
00:57:39 done on sites you know where they just talk about product something on sites rather than
00:57:44 than everything in writing so but let's talk about grenfell related yes i was going to say let's stay focused on um grenfell which was a full plans application um where you have a full plans
00:57:55 um where you have a full plans application um would you have expected your surveyor to issue a written opinion well the wording is a strange thing because it says opinion you know it's opinion's a strange word i
00:58:06 you know it's opinion's a strange word i would expect them to confirm what requirements the building regulations are
00:58:11 are and say where it wasn't in compliance but
00:58:14 but remember it could be that the work's okay and then an approval is issued so that therefore becomes the written opinion so you're saying that the formal approval would be sufficient you
00:58:26 approval would be sufficient you wouldn't expect anything else well if if everything was okay there's no need to write to them and everything and if everything wasn't okay you would expect that to be issued in writing i would and there was a requirement
00:58:37 there was a requirement to issue a meaningful response which is as full a check as possible of the information that's been submitted
00:58:48 of the information that's been submitted within a period so a meaningful response wouldn't just be a surveyor saying i require more information no it could be so the meaningful
00:59:00 no it could be so the meaningful there's time limits as you're aware for dealing with full plan applications you're probably aware you know five weeks and two months yes we're aware of those yeah um
00:59:14 yes we're aware of those yeah um in advance of that when the information comes in and hopefully be helpful you would write a amendment letter of saying so if that can put in the details to give them a chance then to amend that before you had
00:59:26 chance then to amend that before you had to reject it and hopefully approve it or conditionally approve it that would be the objective um so it's a fuller response as possible so if nothing was submitted the written response would be
00:59:37 response would be i haven't got any plans or calculations say can you please give them to me do you know if that was done on grenfell well i i didn't know
00:59:48 well i i didn't know at the time um obviously there's a it's in the public record now um i don't believe
00:59:54 believe anyone's found a written response like a first amendment letter
01:00:02 but not something you were aware of either way at the time no um if we go down to the fourth paragraph again in this guidance it says there so can i go back to that
01:00:15 it says there so can i go back to that there was there would have been a requirement to make uh note down a meaningful response on the database and it's a question of timing so obviously technology changes so if they're even a verbal request
01:00:26 so if they're even a verbal request saying i need some plans that would be recorded in a meaningful response box within the accolade uh database effectively yes i think we do have an accolade reference for that which i can okay i can dig out that's good for the
01:00:38 okay i can dig out that's good for the transcript at a later stage but you weren't aware of the substance of what that report what that response may or may not have said no no um so at that fourth paragraph then if plans are passed or approved subject
01:00:49 if plans are passed or approved subject to conditions a schedule written in clear and unambiguous terms outlining the necessary modifications and or of the further plans or information required to demonstrate compliance should be issued to the
01:01:00 compliance should be issued to the client
01:01:01 client um so that's um the guidance there is that a record of conditions should be made and camped
01:01:09 yes i disagree with the word client it could be it's usually the applicant it will go to the person who's making the application was it standard practice for conditions to be recorded in writing
01:01:20 to be recorded in writing and sent out if it was a conditional approval then yes uh and also kept on the file so this is if you're going down the conditional approval route yes yeah of course yeah would it be kept on
01:01:33 yeah of course yeah would it be kept on the hard copy file or is it something you'd expect to see recorded in accolade okay so there's expect it to be in whatever file
01:01:44 whatever file it's in at different times we've rbkc moved from a paper file to electronic and i can't recall the exact timing of that but even if it was electronic there was
01:01:55 but even if it was electronic there was still
01:01:57 still a paper record as well so right towards the end of my time at rbkc there was
01:02:03 there was purely electronic records and um some information would be like the application form wouldn't be kept for example it'd just be the information would be scanned or
01:02:14 the information would be scanned or recorded
01:02:15 recorded in november 2014 which is where mr hoban says that he issued a conditional response where would you have expected rbkc's record of those conditions to be
01:02:26 rbkc's record of those conditions to be kept i think at that time and this would be a matter of inaccuracy if we look in the records you know you could ask rbkc about it i'm sure you will do but i believe there would have been so the there was an electronic record
01:02:38 the there was an electronic record because it's stored on the database but at that time i believe the application form and whatever drawings even if they were submitted electronically would have been printed off
01:02:49 off manually for the surveyors and placed in the paper file on top of that one of the means escape team
01:02:57 team had their own means of escape database because the reason for that was the file size was so large that the person was dealing with was that the immaculate had a limit on the document
01:03:09 immaculate had a limit on the document size that you could upload so and the other thing as well is the obviously the accolade database had obviously inspection records in which is part of the records it may have emails you could upload into
01:03:22 it may have emails you could upload into the record and that's what would happen you know you upload plans into it so become a comprehensive electronic record as well as a paper record
01:03:33 record as well as a paper record now neither the inquiry nor rbkc has been able to locate a record of the conditions that were issued for grenfell tower can you explain why that might be the first
01:03:44 explain why that might be the first point is you're talking about conditions so
01:03:47 so there wasn't a conditional approval as far as i know but there should have been an amendment schedule like an amendment letter first amendment letter or schedule that kind of thing
01:03:58 letter or schedule that kind of thing setting out what the requirements are if there were any missions
01:04:06 we can come to the document we can dig it out but mr hoban emailed the applicant studio e to say that he was going to issue a conditional approval okay um so in those circumstances if
01:04:19 okay um so in those circumstances if we can dig out the document later would you have expected yes a record of the conditions to be kept at rbkc's end and that that is well not only their end but be sent out as well so conditional approval is a
01:04:31 as well so conditional approval is a approval notice and then it has a schedule attached with whatever the conditions are and typically it would say please submit the structural calculation and then also highlight the parts of the regulations
01:04:43 highlight the parts of the regulations that related to and can you explain why we've been unable to locate a record of those conditions not why you know to find them if it wasn't produced then
01:04:54 wasn't produced then well no it should have been produced there's no question about it if the surveyors asked for the it to be produced
01:05:02 produced and has asked the team to produce it then it would be produced the guidance uh also states that records of the plan assessment process should be kept um so that's not just a record of the
01:05:14 um so that's not just a record of the formal decision but a record of the building controls officer's view of the plans and was that standard practice within rbkc at the time i don't think it was standard practice and probably isn't
01:05:25 standard practice and probably isn't standard practice across the industry now so you would not expect a surveyor to note down somewhere what their views were about an application no sometimes it's important with the
01:05:37 sometimes it's important with the letters
01:05:38 letters and to get history through the chronology which is why when there was a paper file you would keep the paper information under a treasury tag and it'd be in a way where let's say
01:05:49 and it'd be in a way where let's say there was an agreement you would mention it in the letters such that it becomes evident what the decision-making process was um could you just repeat the
01:06:00 was um could you just repeat the question against there was another thought that i had so i was asking was there read it back to you
01:06:06 to you um you would not expect a surveyor to note down somewhere what their views were about an application no um not all the way through but there was a building control tracker and i know
01:06:18 a building control tracker and i know that term has been mentioned so there was an evolution happening mainly
01:06:23 mainly brought about by customers asking for a tracker so one thing's a schedule the other the tracker obviously signifies a time component so there was a voluntary tracker that could be used
01:06:34 voluntary tracker that could be used mainly if the client wanted it it could be used on projects where something i created basically to list all the documents and the regulations and the opportunity then to
01:06:46 regulations and the opportunity then to for example in part a to do restructuring you would say you know please send me your structural calculations and that could be then sent to them and obviously it was dated and stored in accolade
01:06:57 stored in accolade are you aware of a tracker being in use in grenfell it wasn't i don't i wasn't involved uh hands-on with the project at the time obviously since that time it seems of all your evidence remember i'm
01:07:08 evidence remember i'm i'm not caught for everything i've only got the snippets in the hearings that have been made available but um i haven't seen that there was a tracker there
01:07:17 there can you recall if the tracker was something that was in place from 2013 and therefore was something that was available but not used or just something
01:07:27 something it was around that time but it wasn't compulsory it was mainly due to customer need clearly it would be great to have that on all projects i don't believe that's the case in all building control departments at
01:07:38 in all building control departments at the moment but i'm not in a position to comment on that moving on to a slightly different topic at the time of working on the grenfell project were you aware of previous fires
01:07:49 were you aware of previous fires involving external clouding facades on high-rise residential buildings including noseley heights in 1991. again it's 1991 i obviously wasn't the
01:08:00 again it's 1991 i obviously wasn't the head of building control then but i i would have been aware because i said i've
01:08:05 i've you know i keep on top of what's happening and i've mentioned the sources previously so i probably would have done but i can't say explicitly garnet court we saw a picture of that when looking at br-135 were you aware of
01:08:17 when looking at br-135 were you aware of that when it happened when was that 1999 again i wasn't the builder control manager but i would have been aware of it uh firing murmurs tower in france in 2012
01:08:28 france in 2012 uh it doesn't ring a bell but subs i mean the thing is because i've obviously i've heard about these since so it's i can't say to you categorically what i knew then and what i know now what about the
01:08:41 then and what i know now what about the spate of fires in high-rise buildings in the uae in 2012 2013. i think i'd have seen them on the tv like most people would have done and the fires at the address downtown hotel and torch residential building in
01:08:52 hotel and torch residential building in dubai in 2015. probably and can you recall what the state of your knowledge was or was it just
01:08:58 just something you see on the news no the state's knowledge would be the same as it is you would apply the building regulations in england and wows as they apply to whatever project you have
01:09:10 whatever project you have i'm not sure if you uh quite understood my question um how much did you know about those fires at the time
01:09:19 whatever would have been reported in the building magazine the rics and you know as a consequence if the government felt i know there was some commentary on some of the fires if the
01:09:30 commentary on some of the fires if the government felt there's a need to change the
01:09:32 the address the building regulations then they would have done so and had a consultation did the uae fires alert you to the dangers of acm on high-rise buildings i can't recall at the time
01:09:44 the time were you aware of the fire at latino house i was um from that fire did you gain any understanding of how fire can spread
01:09:51 spread up the exterior of a building i would have done this obviously i've read the uh the findings of the inquest i believe i may have had some training at the time and also there was
01:10:03 training at the time and also there was a
01:10:05 a i think it's in the record i've certainly seen it somewhere with the uh the fire authority writing to chief executives pointing out i believe there's a letter
01:10:17 pointing out i believe there's a letter if we go to rbk402607
01:10:22 this is an email from you to paul hansen of
01:10:25 of 18th march 2014. if we just zoom in there so you can see um see that top half it says please find notes below um those notes and we will
01:10:37 notes below um those notes and we will look at them are from a latino house presentation on around 20th of february 2014. yeah sent to you by mr john humphreys at brent yeah so that the group of people
01:10:48 brent yeah so that the group of people there that would have been you know the people that would have attended that particular seminar but they were members other members of head's ability control in london obviously apart from marie buckley that
01:10:59 obviously apart from marie buckley that worked at labc did you attend that presentation yourself i believe so um how did you come to receive
01:11:10 um how did you come to receive those notes did you ask for them from uh mr humphreys or did he just send them i can't call you'd have to look at the whole
01:11:19 whole trail of it i can't recall uh did you read the notes at the time we can if i scroll up we can see them there if that jogs your memory i'm sure i would have done yet why were
01:11:30 i'm sure i would have done yet why were you sending them to paul hanson um i can't recall now at the bottom of the page um we'll see uh there are obviously different
01:11:41 uh there are obviously different sessions uh delivered by different people so the bottom of that um actually it is on the screen though we've got deputy commissioner lfb yep and so it's that top chunk of text
01:11:53 yep and so it's that top chunk of text if you look down [Music]
01:11:56 [Music] about six lines in all caps it says there could be another latino house elsewhere do you remember that message being delivered at the conference or jumping out at you when you read those notes i've
01:12:08 you read those notes i've i don't know i can't actually remember the training event at all when so this did you have a date when this was sent um it's sent to you on the 18th of march 2014 but
01:12:18 2014 but um the presentation appears to have been on or around 20th of february 25th i can't
01:12:23 can't i can't remember it if we go on to page two of the email and again zooming in at the top
01:12:35 and it's the second chunk of text um mentions composite panels tested as class
01:12:40 class three instead of class naught no fire resistance panels burnt through in 4.5 minutes
01:12:46 minutes induce introduced flaming inside of flats panels also broke through externally but also ignited within flat above before failure of glazing and is that something you remember knowing about at the time with regard to
01:12:58 knowing about at the time with regard to latino house um i believe so and if we go just down to the bottom of page two under the questions and debate section
01:13:09 under the questions and debate section fourth line down spread of flame external facades can you recall
01:13:14 recall um what that debate was about which bit you looking at sorry full flying down fourth line down so under question slash debate spread of flame external facades what's 1736 or what's the full flying
01:13:27 what's 1736 or what's the full flying down
01:13:28 down which paragraphs are sorry it's a bit further down under the heading question stroke
01:13:33 stroke okay bottom paragraphs i thought sorry yeah and it says their fourth line spread of flame external facades yeah um do you recall what that discussion may have been about
01:13:45 may have been about i don't i'm sorry i can't actually recall the the meeting i've i'm trying to get any kind of recollection but i can't actually remember it um at the time of latino house was
01:13:56 um at the time of latino house was the discussion of spread of flame on external facades something that was happening in the industry that you were aware of at the time i was and i've i'm not sure if i read then or read since but
01:14:07 if i read then or read since but obviously the the government were aware of it and the uh the dclg or whatever it's called at the time were aware of it and the need if there was any need for further regulation did it prompting you
01:14:19 further regulation did it prompting you any um feeling that you needed to exercise particular scrutiny um over the cladding proposals at grenfell tower if building regulations are followed and
01:14:30 if building regulations are followed and the buildings are built to the guidance the building regulations then there's there's no change is the issue if some if this
01:14:36 if this involves a i know that i was aware and i am aware now the various issues that were presented by lachenal
01:14:46 if it was built to the building regulations they wouldn't have happened is that information that you would have circulated through your team so latino house and the conclusions that you learned about i generally do um there's evidence of
01:14:59 i generally do um there's evidence of various documents i mean i generally do i want to share information so that would be the normal course of events can you recall um forwarding these notes around your team at the time i don't it's strange that
01:15:10 it's strange that particular one was only sent to one colleague so the evidence there i i would have normally done so and i i would do and i'd sort of stand by that i would you know
01:15:21 i would you know if we go to rbk30107
01:15:26 and on third of june 2013 you circulated a flyer for a seminar which was to take place on the 4th of july 2013 and you see there it's fire risk in high-rise accommodation
01:15:38 high-rise accommodation urgent updates for local authorities and housing association yeah um and this arose out of the fires at the latter house and shirley towers did you attend this event i'd have to
01:15:51 did you attend this event i'd have to check my cpd log i'm sure i believe i did i can't recall um and this doesn't i've figured out i've been to a lot of training and that's the thing i'd say so i can't recall
01:16:03 i can't recall this doesn't trigger a specific recollection then it's not far from where i worked um i'd probably say i did go i've not got flashbacks about it but i can check my cpd record
01:16:14 but i can check my cpd record were events like these in the event we looked at before something that only managers would attend or would you expect surveyors to go to these as well no there was a great deal of training at rbkc and
01:16:25 rbkc and uh if it could be opened up to as many as possible that's what we do but however
01:16:30 however there's also i'm not sure if this one was a charge for one there's also cost up cost implications so and also managing the office so you couldn't send the whole team in a small team you
01:16:41 the whole team in a small team you couldn't say right everybody let's go out for
01:16:43 out for a day's training even if it was fairly close but
01:16:47 close but we would get uh if someone did go we'd expect them then to feed back the any learning to the out to the other team members and that certainly did happen
01:16:56 happen um at various times at rvkc and i think that's a normal thing to do mr chairman i'm about to move on to a new topic i can try and get that done by about
01:17:06 about half past or we could break down that sounds a bit um doubtful um so perhaps we'd be wiser to take a break at this point yes i think that australian we have a break during the morning as you probably know
01:17:17 during the morning as you probably know thank you i think in view of what council said we'll take it nurse okay don't go on too long so we'll stop now we'll come back at 25 to 12 please okay and i have to ask you while you're out of the room not to talk to anyone
01:17:29 out of the room not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it understood all right thank you very much would you give the ashes okay woody
01:17:51 25 to 12 cents please
01:35:55 yes would you ask mr allen to come back in please
01:36:08 all right mr allen ready to carry on yes thank you good thank you very much yes it's grogan thank you um just one document just to note for the transcript before um
01:36:19 before um i continue with my questions uh we discussed the meaningful response uh earlier um and the note on accolade is rbk3044876 page 69.
01:36:32 note on accolade is rbk3044876 page 69. we don't need to go to it but that's the record which shows um a meaningful response uh just before the break we were um talking about the
01:36:43 about the seminar on the 4th of july 2013 um on fire risk updates in high-rise accommodation if i could just take you to rbk3050869
01:37:14 and that's a certificate showing that you attended that conference um so you did attend at this point july 2013 uh grenfell tower was
01:37:25 tower was on your desk as your project um did attending that seminar not alert you
01:37:32 you to the need to be particularly careful over your assessment of grenfell tower absolutely it did in what respects in relation to so at this time i was
01:37:46 in relation to so at this time i was believe my position was i was appointed as building control manager you may i need to check the record was that june 2013 uh this took place in july i know it's
01:37:58 uh this took place in july i know it's june i was appointed in june but i wasn't um heading the section up then so i was
01:38:03 so i was uh i headed up from first of september so that's the the first point i was the special projects manager so if there would have been issues about so
01:38:13 so i was doing pre-application with grenfell at that stage so the building regulation application was deposited i can't recall was it have you got recorded august 2014. yeah so it was august 2014
01:38:24 august 2014. yeah so it was august 2014 and i
01:38:25 and i wasn't dealing with the project to that stage
01:38:28 stage um so if you're asking me at this time if i was sent information about grenfell would it have been useful of course it would have been useful so at that time i believe we would we was asked to look at
01:38:40 we would we was asked to look at something to do with the smoke ventilation i think or i can't recall
01:38:45 recall that wasn't quite my question my question was having attended this seminar yes um which arose out of the fire in latino house did that alert you will cause you
01:38:59 did that alert you will cause you to take particular care over the work that you were doing on grenfell at that time it also being a high rise it would have done if information was sent to me so if if i would have received information on
01:39:11 if i would have received information on grenfell
01:39:13 grenfell i would have checked it for compliance the building regulations and clearly if there was i can't recall the content of this course at the moment or who the speakers were but if there was something relevant
01:39:24 were but if there was something relevant of course as a professional i would use any knowledge that i had to help me there was a few ifs in that answer because
01:39:33 i can't recall having the information sent to me um in relation to cladding things but you may have some evidence to say otherwise
01:39:46 say otherwise moving on to um the topic of cpd and training in the years 2012 to 2016 were you generally up to date with your cpd for rex of course
01:39:57 course if we go to all 701 and we zoom in there at the top to start with
01:40:06 with this is your rics cpd for the years 2013-2017
01:40:13 2013-2017 and if we go to page two please
01:40:18 at the very top for the year 2014 it says your cpd recording requirements have not been met
01:40:29 recording requirements have not been met why was that well it's not the case what you're seeing so i provided this information to the inquiry and when after the event you
01:40:37 you on so for this current year 2020 my training isn't complete so as a member of the rcs you're required to complete 20 hours i believe it is each year
01:40:47 year and if you don't complete it you would be expunged or at least there'd be disciplinary action taken against you so it wouldn't be possible for me not to have done my training
01:40:57 training for the current year 2020 although i've done more than 20 hours i haven't yet completed the formal hours you're required to do i believe you've required to do 10 formal hours so when i produce this for the inquiry
01:41:08 so when i produce this for the inquiry often i obviously my pc at home the information about your cpd record requirements have not been met that is really for the current year but there's an error in the way the screen appears
01:41:19 an error in the way the screen appears and it appears in each year so if you actually looked into the record for each of those they're far in excess of 20 hours
01:41:28 hours i've probably recorded at least 40 hours a year and i could have put down probably 200 hours a year because of the amount of
01:41:35 amount of training that i do personally and all the reading i do i could have a lot more information if i needed to so for 2014 at the top then we can see 21 hours
01:41:46 21 hours total for 2014. um so that's that is exactly in excess of 20 hours but it's not the 40 you've just no you've got well some of them i could do 40 or so i've
01:41:58 do 40 or so i've satisfied the requirement if you're asking me that and from memory you need to have 10 formal hours and you can see there's 14 formal hours for the particular year you're talking about so i've satisfied the rics but i could have added a lot
01:42:09 the rics but i could have added a lot more hours there if i needed to
01:42:13 did any of the cpg that you undertook between 2012 and 2016 cover b4 and approved document b it may it may have done but you don't have a specific recollection
01:42:25 have a specific recollection no i mean we could look through sometimes within the notes you can add some more detail about it or attach documents um prior to there being electronic record i used to keep
01:42:37 record i used to keep the things like the document you just saw earlier the um you know a copy of the record i would keep paper records as well you know but i think after a while it i
01:42:48 you know but i think after a while it i just use the rics electronic form do you recall any cpd dealing specifically with external fire spread well i think we've just mentioned there
01:42:59 well i think we've just mentioned there was a
01:43:00 was a if you that previous course had something to do with high-rise buildings didn't it so as i said i just want to repeat but other other than that course that we've looked at
01:43:11 that course that we've looked at i've the training and i can't recall the time i've got my log here but the training for the fire risk assessor was fairly in-depth including looking at
01:43:24 was fairly in-depth including looking at you know explosions or oil refineries and such things it's very like wide ranging so um you'd have to go back and look at what was in there but i would imagine it would have included
01:43:35 i would imagine it would have included b4 as well did you ever attend or undertake any cpd relating to cladding products and systems in that period there would be
01:43:47 in that period there would be training i think i was looking at the recordings of john hogan's evidence there there is and there may be my records if i had my record put up there may be celetex and
01:43:58 record put up there may be celetex and rock wall and things like that so there may be like insolence that uh but i need to look in the record i don't have it and the reference i don't think we
01:44:09 we we need to go to it um but the reference for your training record is
01:44:16 rbk3050382 and that does show some training from kingspan in 2005. yeah can you recall anything more recent than that i if i i mean we could go to the rics website now if you wanted and
01:44:28 the rics website now if you wanted and we could look at it but other than that i can't recall it at this moment in time i'm interested in your um specific recollections mr allen so if you don't remember you don't no i don't i don't recall
01:44:39 don't no i don't i don't recall um if we go to rbk3010781 um this is an email you'll see at the top that you appear to have sent to yourself
01:44:50 um on 19th of january 2015 relating to an labc technical briefing um did you actually attend that
01:45:01 um did you actually attend that technical briefing i'd have to look at the record i can't recall
01:45:07 recall so that doesn't trigger any recollection of having
01:45:10 of having no um obviously i wouldn't have seen this for a long time uh if we go to um you'll see there there's a time slot 12 30 to 1 to 1 300.
01:45:23 1 to 1 300. 12 30 300 yeah um it says combustible insulation in facades conflicts between complying with part l and part b um by somebody from arab
01:45:34 and part b um by somebody from arab um does that trigger any recollection in you and having attended a i can't seminar i can't record it again i'm sure there is a information maybe the paper and that's a long while ago but maybe the papers were
01:45:45 long while ago but maybe the papers were available somewhere if you wanted to see what the
01:45:49 what the particular lecture was on in your role as building control manager were you responsible for training other building surveyors within the department um i'd say yes because i felt that
01:46:02 um i'd say yes because i felt that responsibility so rbkc had a requirement i'm not sure it was all the way through to provide at least two days training per year that was a general rbkc requirement not just the building control or planning
01:46:14 just the building control or planning one
01:46:15 one but uh training was um there was a rbkc provided amazing training actually both for you know personal development as well as um
01:46:26 um technical so there's a vast array of training provided in terms of the technical training were you responsible for the technical training of your surveyors on matters to do with the building regulations
01:46:37 do with the building regulations i would happily say yes because although it wouldn't necessarily be i don't have to look at my job description whether he actually says that in my job description i'm responsible for training but i would take it on
01:46:48 for training but i would take it on myself if there was a change in the regulations because or changing the the building regulations or proof documents because i had to learn it and wanted to find out then i would do my own study including
01:47:01 then i would do my own study including at times talking to the building regulations division at the dclg or whatever mhclg or clg whatever
01:47:08 whatever having to be called at the time um to clarify my understanding so then i would then look to then pass that information on to both my team and also to the
01:47:20 both my team and also to the our external clients as well but focused as you say on changes and updates to the regulations and the approved documents rather than wider issues arising in the industry predominantly unless there was some
01:47:32 predominantly unless there was some because the wider issues if there was something that come across my desk i would then forward that information on to them and also new staff as well by the way yeah so if we had new staff so i was very keen at say we kensington
01:47:45 so i was very keen at say we kensington and chelsea building patrol were very keen on taking on trainees both for the good of the department and for the wider building control industry particularly when the department was
01:47:56 particularly when the department was slightly larger than it was towards the end
01:47:59 end and with those trainees obviously we'd give them extensive training uh which i was usually involved with
01:48:07 with uh we heard from mr hobin uh that there were lunchtime seminars put on by managers was that that was something that was something i organized for for most of the time apart from
01:48:18 from once i become the building control manager obviously my time was being taken with other things and i asked for
01:48:26 asked for someone to step forward and arrange them basically
01:48:30 basically in the period 2013 to uh 2016 how regularly were the lunchtime seminars held
01:48:37 held there wasn't a requirement to actually hold them at a particular time i i would if he was asking me now and i could check and i can do afterwards i would say between four and six a year that kind of amount
01:48:48 that kind of amount every year between that i mean i'm saying i need to check i can produce the records
01:48:53 records um i think you've got some of the records because you've got a lot of the i saw it yesterday you had details of room bookings from the rbkc log of
01:49:05 rbkc log of training so you i think you might have that already if we could go to rbk3051200 this is an email from you to paul hanson
01:49:16 this is an email from you to paul hanson dated 23rd of january 2017 and you'll see in the first email um mr hanson asked how john did we have any rbkc
01:49:25 rbkc in-house building control seminars last year yeah if so do you have a list and you respond there and say we did not have any lunchtime seminars in 20 so that would be in 2016.
01:49:36 in 20 so that would be in 2016. um do you recall that i i mean you're for that particular year i i
01:49:44 i i can't recall as i say i took over um you wouldn't need to look in all the years so this particular one i can't recall if that's the case that's the case for that year was there any particular reason why
01:49:55 was there any particular reason why seminars would not have been held in 2016.
01:49:57 2016. they're i i don't know i'd be just guessing to say why not there wasn't as there was another you know lunchtime seminars are one aspect of training you'd need to look at the
01:50:08 of training you'd need to look at the training logs of all the surveyors so is it perhaps a particularly busy year 2016. no i wouldn't say so i mean i mentioned earlier and i can't recall when um i mentioned about i
01:50:21 i mentioned about i i said before you mentioned that about asking one of the surveyors if they would take over the responsibility to arrange the seminars can you recall which surveyor that was i uh i can but i can't recall if it's
01:50:35 i uh i can but i can't recall if it's this time
01:50:38 this time did your training um in the years before 2016 cover part b of the building regulations there would be yeah and would that be just updates or would it be the substance
01:50:50 substance sometimes substance so prior to 2016
01:50:59 yeah our fire team in particular will mean to escape and the like we would often produce or kent and chelsea would often produce guidance documents with their own accord we had a colleague that was
01:51:12 we had a colleague that was particularly knowledgeable means escape and other things and would help forever do work for other associations so when there's a note out he may do a talk about it or send it round
01:51:23 do a talk about it or send it round which is all training was that paul hansen it was do you recall any notes or training about b4 in particular not about b4 adb
01:51:36 yeah and did you ever provide specific training on part b4 and the guidance supporting it in approved document b i can't recall any i'd need to study the log bar i can't recall any
01:51:49 recall any did you ever provide specific training on how to interpret technical documents such as bba certificates
01:51:56 i probably didn't but it is regarded as a core
01:51:59 a core function and as i mentioned most of the team
01:52:03 team had been in building control for a long time and it's something that would be very
01:52:06 very familiar uh to the team so you'd expect a surveyor to be able to read a bba document and note any limitations or exclusions um what about training on how to
01:52:17 um what about training on how to interrogate manufacturers product information particularly when it comes to claims about fire performance yes so you did provide specific training on that no no i would
01:52:28 that no no i would i would expect sorry i would expect them to know how to interrogate it i didn't provide them training on how to do it so i thought you said would you expect them to
01:52:37 to sorry perhaps i wasn't clear um it kind of followed on yes so you would expect them to be able to do it yes absent any training within your department how could you be sure that they did in
01:52:48 how could you be sure that they did in fact know how to do it
01:52:51 how would i be sure well i would um so i'd have regular meetings with the the team and far as their general competence they may ask me from time to time about a particular thing well
01:53:03 a particular thing well i can assess their level of competence generally but there wasn't a kind of tick box to say do you know how to interrogate a document they're all experienced surveyors that have been there for a long time and it's
01:53:14 have been there for a long time and it's a kind of a core just core part of the role i would say
01:53:20 did rbkc have a policy of requiring their building control surveyors to undertake their own cpd
01:53:29 not a policy i mean there's i did see some previous notes so as you probably know rbkc had a quality management system
01:53:40 management system from approximately 1997 to 2012 and as a requirement of the quality management system there was a need to have a training log
01:53:52 there was a need to have a training log within that so i then would make sure that the surveyors had a training log that um quality management system stopped in roughly 2012 so it was then for the surveyors to update their own
01:54:04 for the surveyors to update their own cpd log and that was very much the ethos of the department not necessarily mine but the wider planning department about
01:54:14 about people taking responsibility and determining their training needs apart from some specific corporate things for example if example accolade might change or there was a particular
01:54:26 was a particular you know something to do with equality and diversity or something like that was more widespread you may put that in as a core function for every member of staff at kensington and chelsea but it was generally self-directed the cpd
01:54:38 cpd aside from um the updates that you've mentioned
01:54:41 mentioned um at the lunchtime seminars what systems did you have in place to ensure that building control surveyors were up to date on changes to the building regulations and associated guidance well it's it's many there would also be
01:54:55 well it's it's many there would also be monthly team meetings with the whole team sometimes technical meetings
01:55:02 you would have informal um chats about because you're in a close office together um there would be a cascading of documents so if there was
01:55:13 a cascading of documents so if there was a document coming i mentioned like the building magazine or rscs even though it was sent
01:55:17 was sent to my home if there was an interesting article you'd send it round and say you know look at page 40 on the circulation slip and those kind of things
01:55:25 things so wide and varied i would say as far as training opportunities so during any of these wide and varied training opportunities did you ever reinforce with surveyors the need to
01:55:36 reinforce with surveyors the need to read bba certificates in their entirety they it's a core function and it's not something that's fail the need to do so so as i mentioned at the start it's a case of first of all
01:55:47 the start it's a case of first of all checking what the requirements the building regulations are and the specific part or clause or test that it was required to be because it's very often that manufacturers may
01:55:59 manufacturers may claim something but they won't test into the right
01:56:02 the right part of the regulation so the certificate itself may look fine but if they're not testing it to what you actually need in performance then obviously it's not acceptable and that's a core function so the question you asked did i remind
01:56:14 so the question you asked did i remind people there wasn't a need to remind them
01:56:16 them so a core function that didn't require any training or update or reinforcement from you attention just inherent i would say in the building control function apart from
01:56:27 control function apart from as i say just talking when trainees would first come in then obviously go back to
01:56:32 back to basics for example what is a in a through lounge in someone's house how do you look at steel beam or something
01:56:39 something and then you just build up from there
01:56:44 so if john hoping did not read the whole of the bba certificate on grenfell yes um is it your evidence that that would be him failing to exercise a core function he
01:56:56 failing to exercise a core function he would have needs reading the whole certificate he needs to read through and look for the parts that are relevant to showing compliance with the building regulations
01:57:07 with the building regulations but in if he just read the first page well of course not that's a different question if the page two was where the information was he needed i don't know if you can produce a bba certificate but there might be
01:57:18 there might be some paragraphs within that i don't know if there's an example that wouldn't necessarily be relevant to the building regulation process for example on the bba certificate mentions compliance in scotland
01:57:30 compliance in scotland so in england you'll just look at the bit that's relevant to england and wales and you wouldn't need to read the part it's in scotland because uh we don't deal with the regulations in scotland
01:57:41 scotland um you say you've um you were listening or you've watched some of mr hoban's evidence
01:57:45 evidence um from the previous days of the inquiry were you surprised that he said he didn't know what an 8414 test was
01:57:53 test was at that moment he could have it doesn't surprise me that and you could ask me now
01:57:58 now uh a number of british standards i haven't got an encyclopedic knowledge of every british standard that's mentioned in the back of approved document b but if i could look it up fairly easily
01:58:11 but if i could look it up fairly easily and get the document as well because it's on the ihs system and if someone didn't know it they could ask and the same i would do i don't know everything but i've got a good team around me
01:58:22 good team around me both within rbkc and elsewhere that if i didn't know i could ask an 8414 test is mentioned specifically in approved document it's
01:58:33 in approved document it's an 8414 test applying br 135 criteria is specifically one of the ways that you can achieve compliance with the functional requirements but you're not surprised that mr hoban was unfamiliar with both what an 8414
01:58:44 was unfamiliar with both what an 8414 test was and haven't read br135 well we mentioned he had looked at the linear route and he's not looking at br135 but as far as the bs 8414 test i would say if you ask most builder control
01:58:56 say if you ask most builder control staff they wouldn't be aware what which either of the parts are to bs 8414 part 1 and part two but you could look it up if you need to so your answer to my question is you're
01:59:07 so your answer to my question is you're not surprised no i didn't say that i could repeat it um well if you could answer my question were you surprised to hear that mr hoban did not know what an 8414 test
01:59:18 mr hoban did not know what an 8414 test was and hadn't read br 135 i wasn't surprised that he hadn't read br135
01:59:24 br135 because the reasons i mentioned before because it's following the linear route and in relation to 8414 if he didn't know it at a particular time he could have looked it up because it was resource to do so
01:59:40 was there a system or practice within rbkc where if someone else went to a seminar or conference they would share what they had learned with the rest of the team i mentioned that earlier it wasn't required but it was generally
01:59:52 required but it was generally a good thing to do because they've they've learned some experience from that and it's obviously as much as you can to share that information so if i for example went to an ldsa meeting and sometimes there was technical
02:00:03 and sometimes there was technical information at the start of that there might be someone invited to present to the whole of london which they may have been keen to do i would endeavor to you know disseminate those minutes or the information
02:00:14 those minutes or the information uh if we could go then to rbk401221 these are the minutes um from a london district surveyor's general meeting so that's the the ldsa is it um
02:00:27 the ldsa is it um 15th of october 2015 and we can see on the list there from kensington and chelsea it's jose anon attending so he was your deputy wasn't he he was um yeah so he would attend if i
02:00:39 he was um yeah so he would attend if i couldn't
02:00:40 couldn't or sometimes we i shared it with him just
02:00:43 just as for experience and exposure as well for him
02:00:47 for him um if we go to page four
02:00:52 um there and if we look on one second just to locate it uh yes if we look it's about two-thirds of the way down the first box um and it starts with pc
02:01:06 box um and it starts with pc has a large office building can you see that text there yeah it just needs a bit of delay while they just enlarge it that's it okay so we're sorry where are we looking um so it's now at the bottom the last
02:01:17 so it's now at the bottom the last paragraph it says pc has a large office building do you see that there's pc so i can't see oh there's a last bit pc yeah
02:01:25 yeah so pc um if we look at the front we don't need to go there but looking at the front page that's someone from southwark i think is that piece pc peter card i think pc attended recent lfb
02:01:35 lfb seminar is that what i'm looking at uh no it's a bit for this pc has a large office building brackets nine stories he says large javascript nine stories yeah yeah um so it says pc has a large office building
02:01:46 office building brackets nine stories that has pir cladding as opposed to rockwool insulation over 18 meters high brackets
02:01:53 brackets bca technical guide 18. at the labc conference last year there was a presentation on this subject and the cladding has to be of limited combustibility but kingspan confirmed that their pir insulation does
02:02:04 insulation does burn um
02:02:07 burn um did mr anon share that information back within the team i don't know but there's nothing in there that's um changed to what we've spoken about so any product needs to be materials or
02:02:19 any product needs to be materials or limited combustibility so
02:02:22 were you aware at the time that products such as kingspan and celatex did not meet
02:02:27 meet the requirements of 12.7 of adb was that something you knew with respect to those brands i wouldn't know every single product that's been manufactured but any product
02:02:39 that's been manufactured but any product that was going to be used on a building that i was responsible for i would obviously look to make sure it complied with the performance requirements in the building
02:02:50 performance requirements in the building regulations can you just answer my specific question which is did you know about celetex and kingspan at that time specifically i may have done i can't recall
02:03:00 recall um did anyone at ibkc attend that labc conference in 2014 that you know of at this moment i don't know we can look in my training record i
02:03:11 in my training record i may have attended if we could go to
02:03:16 rbk402400 now um that's an email dated 22nd of january 2015 and it comes from you yeah and you're sending it to colleagues
02:03:27 yeah and you're sending it to colleagues with a letter from the lfb recording compartmentation and fire stopping um and you see there just for information brackets you can also add to your scene so you can just have that a little bit larger so if that's possible
02:03:39 little bit larger so if that's possible just the main body the text okay thank you it says just for your information brackets you can also add to your cpd log attached is a letter sent to the leader of the council from the london fire
02:03:51 of the council from the london fire brigade
02:03:52 brigade um it's not clear who this letter is aimed at and i'm awaiting a call from the borough commander i think its audience is anyone in the council who's responsible for refurbishment work there are case studies in the appendix
02:04:03 there are case studies in the appendix some involving fatalities in which fire protection measures have been compromised these are the type of faults that would be picked up in our bkc as part of our plan checking and site inspection regimes
02:04:14 regimes were you intending that email to be a reminder to your team to exercise particular care and scrutiny when dealing with fire protection measures
02:04:24 measures the as i said at the top it's just for information i wasn't send it to them as a criticism of anything they were doing it was these are faults that have been flagged up very helpfully by
02:04:35 up very helpfully by the uh london fire brigade that was sent to the leader of the council and obviously i was then sharing that information we spoke about cpd and sharing training and those kind of things it's obviously been an example
02:04:47 things it's obviously been an example to add to that previous question that you mentioned about sharing knowledge and information i think it's just as it is it's information i wouldn't have had any particular issues of any of the staff about it but
02:04:58 issues of any of the staff about it but it's just it's awareness and uh just prompted really is what i'd say moving on self-explanatory really i don't know what mark can say about it moving on to a new topic which is the
02:05:10 moving on to a new topic which is the role of building control um i'm going to put a number of propositions to you and you can just tell me whether or not you agree with them
02:05:17 them do you agree that the role of a building control body is only to check for compliance with the requirements of the building act and building regulations not not entirely
02:05:28 not not entirely depending where you're going so first of all the the function of building control there's many different duties that building control look after and that does vary from place
02:05:40 look after and that does vary from place to place it's not just the building regulations so typically at rb not typically specifically in rbkc the percentage of time spent doing building regulation work was
02:05:51 building regulation work was round about somewhere between sort of 70 and
02:05:55 and 74 it varied with time recording and the rest of the time then was spent on other functions that the building controller rbkc required me to do which is in the
02:06:06 required me to do which is in the council's constitution it does vary council to council so for example looking at dangerous structures for example
02:06:13 example administering administering initial notices
02:06:16 notices looking at demolitions those kind of things so there's a whole load of stuff in the context of a building project that's controllable by the building regulations it's the role of building control to check for compliance with the
02:06:28 check for compliance with the requirements of the building act and the building regulations well where did where are you reading that from um that's the opinion of our expert witness ms menzies yeah could we see
02:06:40 witness ms menzies yeah could we see her report because the council's just putting a proposition to you yeah and i do agree with it you can say so and if you don't you can explain what you do
02:06:48 you do partly um
02:06:51 partly um the guidance in the approved documents the approved documents are for everybody and the guidance is the responsibility for compliance to the building regulations
02:07:02 regulations lies with those people that are carrying out the work it also says it in the uh the building control performance standard that you referred to earlier and also says it uh in the manual to the building regulations and in the recently
02:07:14 building regulations and in the recently revised manual to the building regulations so the responsibility for it is that
02:07:19 is that it does talk about enforcement of the regulations as you well know in the building act in section 91
02:07:26 91 and also talks in passing in regulation four of the building regulations and also in um partly regulation 16 but it specifically says on the and you're required to put this on the completion certificate that
02:07:39 completion certificate that um the works are coming with exact words now that the works are proof but not conclusive proof that the works comply with the building regulations so that's the kind of full
02:07:50 regulations so that's the kind of full answer
02:07:51 answer so i'm not sure if that's a yes or no to your question i think we'll get there a different way um as we go through my other questions do you agree that building control body has no role in design
02:08:04 not necessarily because there was a very
02:08:10 not designed because it's the people to obviously design the project but many years ago it's very much about that doesn't comply reject it it's not good enough and just
02:08:22 reject it it's not good enough and just but very much now it's more about being part of it is about being part of the team as well and it may be looking at options and suggestions so typically um plans might be marked up with
02:08:34 um plans might be marked up with suggestions for them to take forward you're not designing it because you definitely can't design but you would try and be slightly more helpful than that rather than just say it doesn't comply just give perhaps some guidance to them
02:08:47 just give perhaps some guidance to them to help them comply it's not a rejection culture you know you're trying to help people build uh in accordance with the building regulations i hate ideas and part of the role
02:08:57 role um of a bcb is to check submitted proposals build a control is to check submitted proposals for compliance with the building regulations
02:09:09 compliance with the building regulations part of the role yeah and to inspect works on site to ascertain compliance well yes but there's no requirement to inspect on-site
02:09:20 inspect on-site as you because that's in the regulations so there's requirement that's changed over time for people carrying out work to give notice of those inspections is nowhere that
02:09:31 of those inspections is nowhere that says that the building control has to inspect
02:09:33 inspect but they generally do inspect i'm just explaining what the regulations say and when they do they're looking for compliance or non-compliance yes with whatever it is at that moment
02:09:44 yes with whatever it is at that moment they've been asked to go and have a look at
02:09:47 at do you also agree that it's ultimately for those designing and carrying out building works to ensure that the building regulations are complied with agreed and that is stated in the approved documents and the mandating to
02:09:58 approved documents and the mandating to the building regulations and as you've already said you would agree that building control approval is not conclusive evidence that the building regulations have been complied with not building control approval the building control the completion certificate you know the
02:10:10 the completion certificate you know the final certificate yes so that's not conclusive evidence of compliance isn't it no
02:10:15 it no um do you agree that a local authority building control surveyor is required to take such steps as a reasonable to enable him to be satisfied within the limits of professional skill
02:10:27 within the limits of professional skill and care that the applicable aspects of the building regulations are complied with
02:10:30 with i think is that quoting from the the what the other kind of words that are in
02:10:37 are in uh regulation 16 i think i'm not sure you've got that from but it's that i would say yes um and do you agree that a building control body's ability to do its job properly depends in part on the
02:10:49 its job properly depends in part on the quality of information submitted to it of course do you agree that where there are gaps or contradictions in the information submitted a building control body should follow up on this with the applicant
02:11:00 on this with the applicant yeah do you agree that exercising reasonable skill and care would include seeking missing or incomplete information from the applicant yep both uh the tmo and a range of
02:11:12 yep both uh the tmo and a range of others on site such as studio e ryden harley and the clerk of works witnesses have told the inquiry that they relied on building control to ensure
02:11:20 ensure that refurbishment complied with the building regulations did you appreciate that at the time of the grenfell application um i didn't but they'd obviously be mistaken in their um expectations and understanding and
02:11:32 um expectations and understanding and also what the legislation is is that a misconception that you were generally aware of in the industry at the time
02:11:41 um i can't answer for others i'm afraid was it your experience that people expected too much of building control when it came to compliance issues there may be an understanding for most
02:11:53 there may be an understanding for most people i mean you'll be aware of case law in relation to negligence for building control claims
02:11:58 claims they're not usually successful um i don't think there are any successful the liability remains with the you know the liability remains with those
02:12:09 those people carrying out the work but i think there'll be a perception that if you had a completion certificate from a lay person i'm talking about layperson member of the public you may be thinking oh it's brilliant everything's fine then but if they had a
02:12:21 everything's fine then but if they had a problem so with their extension it wouldn't be building control that would be then they'd be seeking recourse from it would be the people carrying out the work
02:12:28 the work the builder or the architect what about construction professionals and other professionals such as architects well i would say they should know they're in the profession and it's a requirement
02:12:39 the profession and it's a requirement that those undertaking building work should do so with reasonable care as it says in regulation seven you know with materials that fit for the purpose moving on now i'm going to ask you some
02:12:51 moving on now i'm going to ask you some questions about rbkc's building control department and specifically i want to ask you about the structure of it we know that prior to 2013 special projects were dealt with separately from
02:13:02 projects were dealt with separately from the general run of building control applications calc which ultimately included grenfell tower was a special project wasn't it yeah um was grenfell tower considered itself
02:13:12 itself to be a particularly complicated project no
02:13:16 no um would it have been a special project had it not been next door to calc i was the special projects manager and marketing manager and obviously i do what i'm asked to do
02:13:27 and obviously i do what i'm asked to do by
02:13:27 by my line manager so i was asked in the early days to make contact um someone wanted to talk about the smoke ventilation system so generally speaking someone asked me to do something i'd do
02:13:39 someone asked me to do something i'd do it
02:13:39 it so what the definition is doesn't really matter
02:13:43 matter it was one that was going to be dealt with by me but it was a in the size of schemes that are dealt with at kensington chelsea for complexity and value it would be a fairly small scheme
02:13:56 it would be a fairly small scheme from 2013 onwards we've heard that work was allocated on a patch system yeah did the allocation of work within the patch take into account current workload skill and experience
02:14:08 workload skill and experience not initially but yes so you would look at something may be allocated um and at different times i can't recall in 2013 because there were times when i wasn't
02:14:20 there were times when i wasn't the head of the service obviously the early part of 2013 2013. yes and i'm specifically asking about after after you became head of the surface so september 23rd yes from then onwards
02:14:30 onwards um there'd be times when either myself or
02:14:34 or um my colleague my deputy if i wasn't in obviously would generally allocate the work which would be to the patch but then you would also take into account what the complexity of that was most larger projects we knew about in advance because
02:14:47 about in advance because our bkc were very happy to offer pre-application advice so there wouldn't be many large projects you didn't know about a long long way in advance
02:14:55 advance you know years often you'll be talking to years for people about very large projects
02:15:00 projects mr anon in his witness statement to the inquiry which is
02:15:06 rbk3029897 at paragraph 10 and we should be on the next page
02:15:21 um he says there before the fire at grenfell tower the way that work would be allocated is that a surveyor would be allocated a geographic area in the borough a patch and they would generally be responsible for any work that came within that area but
02:15:33 work that came within that area but there were certain exceptions to this um he says because a lot of team members have been in the industry for so long some of us would always do work for partner clients regardless of the patch system
02:15:42 system for instance i deal with a lot of corporate services work such as schools flats and council buildings which are scattered around the borough i would tend to pick these jobs up when they came up even if they were not in my assigned patch do you agree with that
02:15:54 assigned patch do you agree with that broadly yes at different times different points in time but broadly yes and you just see there paragraph 11 at the bottom he now explains that since the fire the process of work allocation has changed
02:16:06 process of work allocation has changed such the work is allocated depending on the complexity of the project yeah i mean the first paragraph takes that into account as well because they're talking about is working with clients and obviously if there was
02:16:17 with clients and obviously if there was clearly
02:16:17 clearly something very complex that would arrive in a very junior member of staff's team there's no way they could check it you may depending on it you may partner with them you know shepherd them those kind of
02:16:29 you know shepherd them those kind of things you wouldn't it was never a case where if a 500 million pound project turned up in a very junior surveyor one you wouldn't do that and two they're not going to be able to give the
02:16:40 they're not going to be able to give the service required for that particular project
02:16:42 project so that just wouldn't happen so your evidence is it it was always the case that if something was particularly complicated or outside of the skill set of a particular severe you would reallocate it absolutely and if something sometimes
02:16:54 absolutely and if something sometimes descriptions wrong we mentioned you don't there's not always plans available the description could be wrong that was on the application form and if something then transpired it was above the level of someone's pay grade basically then the expectation
02:17:07 pay grade basically then the expectation is
02:17:08 is they would need to come and ask for help and that's always the case so would you keep the allocation of work constantly under review yeah and i would talk monthly to my team uh individually you know to
02:17:21 to my team uh individually you know to be monthly one-to-ones um at the start it was two weekly team meetings so you're continually and part of that the first bit of that meeting is how are you how's things you know for them i have an
02:17:33 how's things you know for them i have an opportunity for them to tell me i would have a items i want to talk to them about but i would ask them first up how are you doing how's work all those things and if someone was struggling
02:17:44 things and if someone was struggling were there resources within the department between late 2013 and and 2016 to reallocate work absolutely and it's correct that in 2013 the number of surveyors working in the building control department substantially reduced
02:17:56 control department substantially reduced isn't it
02:17:58 isn't it well it did there was a reorganization i mean there was one in 2009 as well but in 2013 and this is very much as you're aware there's a requirement to
02:18:09 requirement to um break even on the building regulation account
02:18:12 account and you'll be aware of the bigger picture that private building control would uh take some of the market share so clearly there was a downward trend in
02:18:23 so clearly there was a downward trend in the amount of work and therefore income coming to building control and obviously from
02:18:28 from september 2013 onwards it's my job to manage that account and i can't spend money that isn't mine
02:18:37 so you would manage the resources to match or yeah manage resources to match the work that's uh coming into the department how many surveyors were in the department prior to the restructuring in
02:18:49 department prior to the restructuring in 2013
02:18:50 2013 i'd need to look when i started in rbkc in 1996
02:18:55 in 1996 including the support team admin there were 37
02:18:59 were 37 to give you an idea so i used to manage 15 surveyors through three team leaders as the assistant district surveyor and obviously you'll see then at the end but the reason for those changes in 2013
02:19:11 but the reason for those changes in 2013 was because the i think the year before the building control park department on the building regulation account made a 500 000 pound loss
02:19:19 loss which clearly isn't sustainable there's a government requirement and i sort of was building control manager i have to do a report each year to say
02:19:27 to say that over a three year rolling period that
02:19:31 that you'll break even so clearly if you've lost 500 000 you need to address the balance and the work wasn't there either you know because the the work was reducing because of uh market forces
02:19:43 market forces uh mr hoban's evidence was as part of the restructuring five surveyors retired is that right well
02:19:50 well i don't know if they retired they took voluntary redundancy but it's right that five i don't know the numbers i'd have to it's uh there were huge reports done i can't recall the number it wasn't my
02:20:02 can't recall the number it wasn't my um you know i was obviously carrying on so i don't i did read the details at the time
02:20:08 time it might be more than five was it was it the case that the restructuring happened and then you took on the department or were you yourself involved in this restructuring exercise well i was
02:20:19 was um well i was still i'm still part of the management team i've been part of the management team since 1996 but um
02:20:30 the management team since 1996 but um clearly there's a a need to change it so i i can't recall what my role was specifically in changing it but i was part of the management team of three so i was an inherent part of that
02:20:42 so i was an inherent part of that um perhaps we can get to another way do you recall a substantial reduction in the number of people working in the department definitely after that i mean i'd have to think of the names but he said is there five i can't remember it was five
02:20:53 remember it was five i just can't remember that and one surveyor also um mr wing passed away at around the same time
02:21:01 time yeah a friend of mine yeah i can't recall when he passed away actually um was his position filled i i can't recall
02:21:08 recall i'd need to know the dates i mean i did see his uh partner afterwards and things i do know nick very well but i can't recall that i just can't recall the time frame at the moment um the inquiry has also
02:21:21 the moment um the inquiry has also heard reference to mr dave gammon um he was part of the fire regulations group for the the means of escape group is that right yes um prior to the restructuring how many people
02:21:32 many people roughly you don't have to give a specific number worked in that group it's two or three so it'd be paul hansen there may have been celia burt was being trained up i believe it's cena being trained up to
02:21:44 believe it's cena being trained up to help in that section as far as you know continuity there's another word for it rather than continuity but and after the restructuring we heard that the building control department
02:21:56 that the building control department comprised of you as head of department and jose and on as your deputy so i was a duty control manager it wasn't it was head previously but it was changed because of the redundancy you can't call it the same post i was building control manager
02:22:07 post i was building control manager manager
02:22:08 manager um and then three senior surveyors john huben parvinder verdi and amir fardawi that sounds right yep just the three uh and then three surveyors hillary wyatt
02:22:20 and then three surveyors hillary wyatt colin ryan and celia burt is that right yep that sounds about right okay so that's i could check that i'd have to
02:22:27 have to i've got some records about that so i could check it uh and our understanding is that mr anon the three senior surveyors and the three surveyors
02:22:35 surveyors they were all carrying out case work is that right yeah and then you managing them on top well not not at the start because at the very start i still have my
02:22:46 at the very start i still have my own caseload and uh the kensington chelsea were very good with reports and things for accolades so you could look up um fairly easy all the surveyors could
02:22:57 um fairly easy all the surveyors could what the workload was by job numbers or number of plans they've received or full plans they've received regularization certificates building notice in any period
02:23:08 we also heard that later so in 2014 hillary wyatt transferred to the planning department is that right i believe so it's um the dates and times
02:23:19 i believe so it's um the dates and times i don't have a record of it but it will be a rbkc will have record of their personal records of what happened
02:23:28 happened celia burke then left at the end of march 2015 does that sound about right it does yeah colin ryan passed away in october 2015. if you say so i can't remember the date
02:23:39 if you say so i can't remember the date um
02:23:40 um and then wakas rasheed arrived as a graduate in 2016. um well he arrived as a building control surveyor he doesn't have a graduate post he was a building control surveyor i think he was a graduate but he's a
02:23:51 i think he was a graduate but he's a building control surveyor did you hire anyone new to the department between 2014 and 2016 apart from my class rashid i don't believe so you'd need to check the record
02:24:02 the record um so that is over the course of uh around two and a half years um you went down from having six
02:24:13 um you went down from having six surveyors and senior surveyors combined um to three plus wakas rasheed i'd need to check i could double check if that's what you're saying i'm sure
02:24:24 if that's what you're saying i'm sure you'd have checked it thoroughly with a personnel record so i'm sure you're correct
02:24:30 so that was three senior surveyors one principal surveyor and one new graduate um covering the work for the whole borough from october 2015. if that's what you're
02:24:41 from october 2015. if that's what you're telling me what was the reason for the staff leaving
02:24:46 leaving there'd be various reasons you'd have to ask them i mean i could um
02:24:53 we'll see hilly hillary went to planning i think she was moving somewhere else i'm not sure about celia obviously other staff passed away that's pretty good reason uh
02:25:04 that's pretty good reason uh was the building control department overstretched from that period um october 2015 to 2016. i don't believe so
02:25:14 now you've mentioned the national requirement for local authority building control services to be cost neutral and i think you've explained that means that you depended on fee income to fund your department is
02:25:26 fee income to fund your department is that right yes it's over a three year rolling period and the council's financial officer had to kind of sign off that account each year and going into september 2013 you
02:25:39 and going into september 2013 you mentioned as well that the building control department had already made a loss
02:25:43 loss it had yeah yeah um
02:25:49 so was the requirement to be cost neutral linked to the restructuring of the department in 2013 or were they just separate
02:25:54 separate no of course it's uh it gave those staff the opportunity to have voluntary redundancy if they wished you had to reduce your cost because the one that well the income wasn't there but the work wasn't there
02:26:06 but the work wasn't there did rbkc experience a reduction in work then commentary with its reduction of staff from 2013 and what about from 2015 there's there's been a reduction
02:26:17 been a reduction over time from obviously 100 in 1985 to and it's difficult it depends how you're going to measure it because you can measure it by numbers of applications you actually don't know by
02:26:28 applications you actually don't know by income because you don't know what the approved inspectors are charging so there's estimates about that but i would say
02:26:33 say probably down to 30 percent but across the country um it's it's very different in different uh authorities so it'd be probably more than and now it'd be a lot more than that but much more over 50
02:26:44 more than that but much more over 50 percent for local authority building control
02:26:46 control which is a good thing it's good to have competition
02:26:52 did you feel then that the rbkc building control department between 2013 and 2016 was particularly quiet
02:26:59 quiet given your previous experience no because the people that are there are still going to be fulfilling their job function so as individuals you've still got the same kind of amount of work to do
02:27:12 the same kind of amount of work to do and obviously for me personally i'm obviously going to be very busy because whereas in previous structures you've got uh deputies and you know proper deputies alike this one everybody is reporting to me so
02:27:24 this one everybody is reporting to me so i direct reports prior to the restructuring in around mid late 2013 uh did anyone working within the building control department have experience of a residential
02:27:36 have experience of a residential high-rise over cladding project there's not too many in kensington and chelsea to be fair as i mentioned at the start there's a number of high-rise buildings new build and as we've looked at and unless you
02:27:47 and as we've looked at and unless you tell me otherwise there's not too much difference in the regulation between existing buildings over cladding and new buildings
02:27:55 buildings the the core skills and the regulation are very much the same you know it's in b4
02:27:59 b4 there's not a separate one for existing buildings
02:28:03 buildings um so just going back to my question did anyone have that specific experience of cladding overcrowding a residential high-rise
02:28:13 high-rise um i'd have to check probably not as i said because kensington chelsea is a borough there's not there's not that many towers in it i mean it's more i guess proportionately but it's not that many because of
02:28:24 that many because of planning restrictions there's not too much of a change i would say so the answer is no um what about acm on a building over 18 meters i'd have to check i don't know at this time a pir or phenolic insulation on a
02:28:37 time a pir or phenolic insulation on a building over 18 metres and after the restructuring did any of the surveyors who were retained uh have previous experience of any of those things
02:28:49 experience of any of those things but you'd have to ask them they may have done those all experienced surveyors that apart from wakis wakkas rasheed were um employed not by me you know those already in post
02:29:01 not by me you know those already in post for a number of years before i arrived you know so well over 20 years at least in his statement to the inquiry which for the transcript is
02:29:14 rbk3033910 we don't need to go to it paragraph seven
02:29:18 seven graham stalwart has explained that in january 2014 a dedicated administrative team was created to support the whole planning and borrower development direct directorate is that correct
02:29:29 is that correct yes it changed the responsibility for the
02:29:33 the admin business support ebden flowed between
02:29:36 between me or between the building control manager ahead of building control and planning at different times so it went away it come back it went away
02:29:47 was it the case that after this administrative support department was formed and that surveyors were required to do more administrative tasks for themselves than before probably not it was the the base the
02:29:59 probably not it was the the base the basis of it i think was that the different functions were planning and building control had their own business support so it was seen as a way to kind of centralize that business
02:30:11 to kind of centralize that business support rather than have it decentralized so it's like centralize it but you still had
02:30:16 had administrative support i mean the role changes because of computerization and things
02:30:20 things there's sort of you know always changing but i wouldn't say there's any more particularly
02:30:27 mr i'm not going to ask you some questions about mr hoban specifically um it's correct that jose and noam was your first choice for calc and grenfell wasn't he
02:30:36 wasn't he i don't know i don't know we can go to um mr anon's statement which is two nine eight rbk302989 seven
02:30:48 and again if we go onto the next page
02:30:59 sorry one more page i think it's around paragraph 10.
02:31:04 um
02:31:08 i'll i'll dig out the paragraph reference but mr anon in his statement um
02:31:12 um you can take it from me says that you approached him first but he turned you down
02:31:16 down um due to workload and also knowing um people who lived in the tower do you recall that i i don't um i needed so the conversation here would be around
02:31:30 so the conversation here would be around i was asked to uh by graeme stillwood to reallocate the projects i had i may have actually had about
02:31:37 had about 20 odd projects at first first of all i think i've seen that on a report and he didn't want me doing any caseload he wanted me to concentrate on managing the builder control service and
02:31:49 managing the builder control service and obviously
02:31:52 getting new projects in getting the incoming basically so i had to allocate a number of projects to different people so there was some fairly large projects so there was the um
02:32:01 um exhibition road building at the victoria albert museum which proven to verdi looked at there was a huge new uh school marble primary school in uh down
02:32:12 school marble primary school in uh down in chelsea which uh mia fardoo we looked at
02:32:17 jose anon took on the science museum from me
02:32:22 from me took on all of clutton's work uh a large um property owner they worked for a large property owner in chelsea so there's some huge projects and
02:32:33 there's some huge projects and obviously then it may have been that in that negotiation you may have said that i wouldn't um i trust jose from what you said so if that's his recollection i'm happy to go with that
02:32:42 with that um it's paragraph for the transcript it's paragraph 37 which is on page eight could i ever have a look at that just
02:32:50 to see what so he says and we can zoom in for you i was aware of the grenfell tower refurbishment project when the job came onto our department i was initially asked to undertake the
02:33:01 i was initially asked to undertake the surveying work on the project on the associated work at the leisure centre and academy however at the time i was dealing with a large with a number of large housing and refurbishment projects across the borough as well as large projects at harrods in the science museum
02:33:12 harrods in the science museum i did not think i had the capacity to take on this additional workload and advise my supervisor john allen accordingly do you recall that um i don't recall it but i trust what jose says um can you explain why jose anon was your
02:33:24 can you explain why jose anon was your first pick for grenfell i don't know i it was a case i i've there's a team and i've got to share the work out to the team and um you know
02:33:37 and um you know there's only so many permutations and combinations you can have so you've got last somebody to start with did he have specific experience that might have been no i wasn't no i'm not
02:33:48 might have been no i wasn't no i'm not just showing the projects out amongst them and jose ended up and he's mentioned those he ended up with a lot more than that he also looked at the uh all the cow he says all the council's own projects as well mainly
02:34:00 mainly at the time you handed the project to john hoban were you aware that he had never done a high-rise rental dental so can i just go back um it says there he's dealing with a large number of housing refurbishments quite he also dealt with
02:34:11 dealt with um mainly most of the council's projects if they come separately so because this is still a council project um that would have included that but presumably excluded it's because he said he knows
02:34:23 excluded it's because he said he knows some people there so he should say i'm not probably i'm excluding it because of that so it's more by exception it would still deal with all the council projects for the reasons he says the first reason he gives is that he did
02:34:35 the first reason he gives is that he did not think he had the capacity to take on the additional workload so mr anon certainly at that period was particularly busy would you agree um sorry i thought you said he knew someone in the he gives two reasons
02:34:47 someone in the he gives two reasons okay where's the other reason at the end of paragraph 37 okay he says i did not think i had the capacity to take on this additional workload
02:34:55 workload and advise my supervisor john allen accordingly yeah what does it say about him he felt that he knew somebody uh paragraph 38. sorry well there you go so i'd have to ask him which was the most
02:35:06 i'd have to ask him which was the most important but that seems like a reasonable thing to say but you don't recall him saying i'm too busy for this no to someone else jose had an incredible ability to deal with work
02:35:19 an incredible ability to deal with work [Music]
02:35:20 [Music] you know a very very competent man at the time you handed the project to john hoban were you aware that he had never done a residential overclouding project before
02:35:32 um i wasn't at that time but it wouldn't have made
02:35:36 have made as far as the um the core skills it's just looking at what the building regulations are and applying the building regulations and also needing help if you need help were you aware that he hadn't done a
02:35:48 were you aware that he hadn't done a decide and build project before um that surprises me i would say most projects are design and build but you weren't
02:35:57 weren't you weren't aware at the time that he had that gap in his experience i would say that's unlikely did you not know or want to assure yourself um in those circumstances that mr hoban
02:36:09 those circumstances that mr hoban was up to speed on all the relevant parts of the building regulations in adb no not particularly the regulations are um the linear route is a fairly
02:36:20 um the linear route is a fairly straightforward route as a special projects manager you must have known that he had never done a special project before when you gave him calc and grenfell um
02:36:32 when you gave him calc and grenfell um well it's a strange question because it depends on what special project is so what's the definition of that before because there wasn't a special project role before that it was created
02:36:41 created from a previous reorganization
02:36:47 on what basis did you think he was able to take on a project of the size and complexity of grenfell tower i had every confidence in the senior building control surveyor he's been a number of years and would
02:36:59 he's been a number of years and would know to
02:37:01 know to how to comply with the building regulations and if not to ask did you think about offering him any extra support or training um training was offered widely at kenton chelsea so we had large access to
02:37:13 chelsea so we had large access to training
02:37:14 training at this point training was largely their cpd was largely self-directed which was in line with the what the graeme stillwood eventually executive director that was his view
02:37:25 executive director that was his view about training as well was that it was very much for the people to set their agenda for the training unless there was something that of over and above that was required to be done
02:37:36 to be done so you wouldn't have known if there were any gaps in mr hoban's knowledge um because he was doing self-directed cpd is that yeah i'd say there isn't a way of checking that
02:37:47 of checking that every single
02:37:50 project every single regulation but it's going back to the core skills it's look at the requirements the building regulations and apply them and as we've gone through the linear route is a fairly straightforward
02:38:03 route is a fairly straightforward process in the context of what you had recently learned about the lacmol house fire and given that this was a residential high-rise refurbishment
02:38:14 residential high-rise refurbishment did you not think it was appropriate to double-check that mr hoban was appropriately skilled and up-to-date the as you've seen from laconal house if the building would
02:38:27 from laconal house if the building would have been built at the time in accordance with the building regulations or depending when it was built the london building acts then if those have followed that linear route then the building regulation has been fine i have since read some of the
02:38:40 have since read some of the at the inquest i've read some of the findings of forget the lady's name now but they were saying that it was an issue about classo on the outside and then she um mentioned about is not
02:38:51 and then she um mentioned about is not needing to be fire resistant it says in the transcript of the uh when the one of the reports that was done from the inquest so that actually wouldn't have helped because the important thing
02:39:03 because the important thing is make sure the outer surface is classo that the insulation inside is materials of limited combustibility and you follow the cavity barriers um you've mentioned uh that it would
02:39:15 um you've mentioned uh that it would have been reasonably straightforward for mr hoban just to follow the linear route through yeah um why at this stage given that you didn't know and had never asked would you have assumed that grenfell tower was following the
02:39:27 that grenfell tower was following the linear route to compliance i wouldn't have known so if you didn't know why didn't you check that he was familiar with the other ways of achieving compliance the responsibility for the dean of the project lies with the
02:39:38 dean of the project lies with the particular surveyor and then my supervision of that would be linked to asking for monthly meetings with him as far as he coping workload-wise and those kind of
02:39:49 coping workload-wise and those kind of things
02:39:50 things but technically it's assumed that the surveyor the senior builder control surveyor has got the core skills to deal with a range of products and that's what job description says there's not a limit on
02:40:02 says there's not a limit on you can't deal with these projects it's within his job description were you aware at the time about um the increasing use of bs 8414 tests for compuls combustible insulation on high-rise buildings
02:40:14 high-rise buildings um there wasn't so many so i didn't deal with that many through the the br135 route that you were talking about so that wasn't an issue you were really live to at the time
02:40:25 really live to at the time live is your choice of words i'm live to knowing what the building regulations are and applying them to any project that i was responsible for but isn't that why industry guidance such as br 135 is so important
02:40:37 such as br 135 is so important mr allen in that it raises specific issues that are happening at the time that building control surveyors might need to be aware of br 135 largely um
02:40:48 br 135 largely um re-emphasizes what's in the building regulations so if you follow the building regulations then you won't be going too far on br135 as we looked specifically referred to pir insulation
02:41:01 specifically referred to pir insulation as being something that wouldn't meet 12.7 did they say unlikely to me was it was that the was that sorry that's the sorry i've missed that's the bca guidance but the question still applies
02:41:12 still applies the bca guidance specifically referred to pir
02:41:16 to pir insulation as not meeting no they didn't said i think it said unlikely to me was that a fine distinction that you're aware of at the time probably not but the distinction is
02:41:27 the distinction is any product that's going to be used there's new products all the time you would check to make sure the particular product in the that they're using first of all has a certificate that's within date and all the things that
02:41:39 all the things that they would know about it's tested in the uk or if it's a european standard test is relevant and also the test actually is tested for the particular requirement that's asked that you're
02:41:50 requirement that's asked that you're looking for in the building regulations and it's not something different and that often happens with manufacturers you know they would the test
02:41:56 test it's not testing what's required um and again that issue that you've just uh rehearsed
02:42:06 rehearsed just now is that something you were aware of at the time in 2013 this was not something you've learned since grandfather the core knowledge about looking at complete any test data is a core function for
02:42:17 function for building control obviously it just goes taken as read that's the same um looking at mr hoban's workload you
02:42:28 um looking at mr hoban's workload you said in your statement that you would meet each surveyor monthly and check through their job sheets and confirm their workload was manageable yeah do you have a specific recollection of doing this with john hoban during his time on the grenfell project yes
02:42:40 time on the grenfell project yes did you meet him every month more or less every month there's sometimes not i do have a record uh in a planner of each individual sound surveyor meetings
02:42:51 each individual sound surveyor meetings i've had with them it's more of an aid memoir for me but it was using the planner that i trialled full out um for rbkc i tried a i went on a course trial in a particular
02:43:02 i went on a course trial in a particular planner which i then got the planner as part of going on the course i do have a personal record of each surveyor and some of which is personal stuff but i
02:43:13 some of which is personal stuff but i did
02:43:14 did offer to disclose it or my legal team offered to disclose it to the metropolitan police previously mr hobbins said in his evidence that you did not ask him about whether his workload was manageable at these meetings
02:43:25 these meetings um can you comment on that um it that surprised me because the my typical approach would be to ask each surveyor how they're doing how's their work
02:43:37 how they're doing how's their work but you know if he said that that's what he said
02:43:41 he said did he ever raise any issues with having a heavy workload with you at these meetings
02:43:45 meetings he he would have done and i'd have to check um
02:43:48 check um the notes i have but he would have done and i would have then offered to help any way i could well how would you resolve those issues well you can share the work around the team do you recall any example of when you did that in respect
02:43:59 example of when you did that in respect of mr hoban yes what was that um i've got record of offering to help mr hoban and i can't give the date after this there was a particular i said doesn't even any
02:44:11 a particular i said doesn't even any help with the full plan applications that he had there was a few that come in um and at the time he said no but then two days later he asked me he gave me a full plan which
02:44:22 he asked me he gave me a full plan which i passed to one of my colleagues paving the verdi can you remember what year that was no i can give you the exact date but not now so it's in between i haven't got the date here but it's in
02:44:33 i haven't got the date here but it's in my plan and i can give it i can supply the date
02:44:35 the date so at some point between 2013 and 18 17
02:44:42 18 17 he left in 17 didn't he mr hoban has said
02:44:46 said that there was an increase in his workload from 2013 as a result of the restructuring that we've discussed do you recall that happening
02:44:54 yes or no i did listen to what mr hope and said or john hoban said but it depends what you're looking at in relation to numbers so there was a number that i've seen in the press and i heard about 130
02:45:07 seen in the press and i heard about 130 jobs
02:45:08 jobs 100 having 130 jobs first of all each month i would meet one of the things i'll do is make sure that records are up to date because jobs may not have been closed down and of those 130 because i had
02:45:20 down and of those 130 because i had i had that data as a sheet that i'd produce you know it's from accolade or one of the other software
02:45:26 software types of software we had of those 130 there would be a number of those that hadn't even started so that wasn't like an inspection workload and there was a number that hadn't been inspected for 90 days
02:45:37 hadn't been inspected for 90 days and on one of the ones i looked at on the particular time the highest number i could see
02:45:41 could see maybe 121 and i think there was only something like 30 current jobs that kind of order but the other thing the number of jobs is not only an indicator i also had details of
02:45:53 indicator i also had details of how many plans each surveyor had received how many platform plans they received how many building notes they received in each year and it'd actually be quite low they may have maybe one or two plans a week maybe less
02:46:04 week maybe less so is your answer to my question that you don't recall an increase in mr huben's workload from 2013. not
02:46:11 2013. not um there's ebbs and flows as i mentioned at the start work across the department and in an individual patch so clearly as i said at the start i can't refuse work it's a requirement local authority to
02:46:23 it's a requirement local authority to take any applications there are so in a particular patch there will be ebbs and flows there'll be very quiet times
02:46:28 times and there'll be very high times so for mr hoban i had the records of how many case numbers he had compared with other surveyors and he wasn't the highest
02:46:41 but his numbers weren't necessarily reflective and some of the other surveyors as well to be fair but the same thing if you need help ask which we did so you uh told the inquiry
02:46:53 which we did so you uh told the inquiry earlier that there was a substantial reduction in the number of staff following the restructuring yes um is it your evidence that that wasn't accompanied by an increase in workload for everyone else in the department as a result no i certainly have more
02:47:04 as a result no i certainly have more work i know that much but um some of the surveys did but it ebbs and flows you know that's the things that quieter times they're more busy times but i always required
02:47:13 required and that the idea is to do the job while you're here so 36 hours was required
02:47:20 required nobody said stayed in the office 10 hours 12 hours a day it was a 36 hour job and it was in my job to make sure that was the case because obviously i cared about the welfare of the staff before september
02:47:32 welfare of the staff before september 2013 how many projects did one building surveyor normally manage at one time well that's what i'm saying the number of projects it's a very over time that's a very difficult thing to say because
02:47:44 to say because one project could be a single store extension that may cause a lot of work and another one could be a huge project that doesn't cause there's different complexity and it's always a thing between surveyors about i've got
02:47:55 thing between surveyors about i've got this many jobs you've got that many jobs and he's got this amount so i did also have meetings with all of the senior building control surveyors together because it was saying oh you haven't asked him to do this and
02:48:06 oh you haven't asked him to do this and you haven't asked him to update his records or whatever it was so i had a meeting with them all together which i've got the date of that as well when was that meeting i
02:48:16 meeting i can provide the date it's in the planner i'm happy to release that information um we know from mr hoban's evidence that he was allocated more work or another patch in march 2015 do you
02:48:28 or another patch in march 2015 do you recall that it'd be parts of patches when people leave so
02:48:32 leave so but then there's an adjustment but always it would be managing the the work on a well weekly and monthly basis what actually happened towards the end
02:48:44 actually happened towards the end in 1617 i was actually having weekly planning meetings with each of the surveyors
02:48:49 surveyors is that because their work their workload had increased because they were staff no because they were talking to me about it i've had it in the past where um it was a long long time ago not sure
02:49:00 um it was a long long time ago not sure may have been i wasn't the head of building control then but one of the team
02:49:04 team was saying they had a a lot of work so i said okay i'll spend the week with you so i sat down first of all and said okay let's what plans have you got to check let's check your plans we've done that
02:49:16 let's check your plans we've done that and then
02:49:17 and then i said let's catch up on all the inspections we've done that and by about day three
02:49:21 day three i said at this moment in time what have you got to do they said nothing i said okay
02:49:27 okay let's carry on then but before then it's like i've got too much work and you know i've got these visits but it's not necessarily the case
02:49:37 so were you aware at the time that through 2015 and into 2016 mr hoban was experiencing difficulties with his own health and in his personal life um not personal life john's a private
02:49:48 um not personal life john's a private person there's always that balance as a manager between prying too much but obviously regarding health i would be attuned to that and i would always encourage my staff to seek
02:49:59 encourage my staff to seek medical help you know go to doctors and such things i in my planner i noted he had an operation on his nose and then i was then talking when he came back about um and this is not forcing anybody to
02:50:11 um and this is not forcing anybody to come back when they you know once they're signed off and come back to work there was a question about him then not going to sites that were too dusty for example
02:50:17 example or offering to him work from home and those kind of things so it's about making reasonable adjustments but people also have got to be fit to work you know working at a council without their own procedures around
02:50:28 their own procedures around eventually if someone isn't fit to work and they're no longer be suitable for doing the job so you obviously they are keen to work and you want to make reasonable adjustments they can work
02:50:39 work um i did know what i think about his personal things as well by the way uh we did do a care plan and offer addition like leaving early or offering extra leave or something in relation to his mother so i've got
02:50:50 in relation to his mother so i've got him a plan of the care plan that we agreed and wrote up which is in line with rbkc's procedures and that's when he was caring for his mother
02:50:57 mother for his mother that's the only sort of personal thing i really know because he's
02:51:01 he's rightly so and he's a private person mr robin has said in evidence that he asked for help in 2015 and we can go to it
02:51:08 it in the transcript it's day 46 page 157 line 15.
02:51:18 line 15. uh and if we zoom in there on line 15 a little bit
02:51:26 he's asked the question did you not say to john allen look i'm overstretched i can't do all these jobs properly and he says i did um and then at line 20 i did ask for help i think it was in april 2015 because when he gave me the
02:51:38 april 2015 because when he gave me the new area
02:51:39 new area i felt that i was being or that i was struggling with my workload i made a number of suggestions about what we should do with celia's area and the work in there and none of these suggestions were taken up and then we'll go over the page i
02:51:52 up and then we'll go over the page i felt i was in a position
02:51:55 at the top line one that i couldn't refuse i was instructed to deal with the additional area and i had to take it on and then he's asked are you sure in your own mind that those managing you knew clearly
02:52:06 that those managing you knew clearly what the difficulties were that you were going through yes you know as i say i was i had health issues going on which sometimes i had to go home early from work or because i was unwell i was going to various hospital appointments i
02:52:17 going to various hospital appointments i was going which obviously i let my manager know i was i mentioned to him about my high blood pressure on a couple of occasions as you say i as i say you know i told him about this but i felt i was at a
02:52:28 him about this but i felt i was at a position
02:52:29 position i felt i wasn't able to say no to him really
02:52:32 really um were there no facilities or resources offered to you or provided to you to support you to make sure that you could do your building control job on grenfell to the best of your ability and he says as i said i pointed this out
02:52:44 and he says as i said i pointed this out i felt i couldn't escalate it any further
02:52:48 further um do you recall him asking you for help and making suggestions asking for help he mentioned about this particular plan as i say these meetings were recorded as well so they not
02:52:59 well so they not by video or audio but there was a written
02:53:02 written record of the events on which mr hogan signed and they recorded on the the council had a system called sharepoint so we there'd be a different areas there'd be team areas there'd be another area just
02:53:13 team areas there'd be another area just for myself and john hogan that only we could look at and then i'd post the his annual performance review his monthly meetings and other things in sharepoint so we had a record of those as well and they
02:53:24 those as well and they are as a matter of fact and they're available
02:53:28 available do you recall him asking you for help he asked for help when the one i've got to note in the planner was when he asked for help
02:53:35 for help uh taking that full plan application off of him and i took it off him and gave it to parvinder verdi in relation to the other things that i mentioned about his health before you know i was keen
02:53:46 know i was keen to look after the staff and support wherever i could you know within the confines of people are still required to work and you still want to get the best out of that person
02:53:57 of that person do you recall him making suggestions for how he could be helped and not taking those up
02:54:03 those up i can't recall that i'm open to listen to um any suggestions from anybody you know then i'd welcome that
02:54:13 that you said earlier that this uh rule is a 36 hour job but it's a case of you do you do your work in the time you're not expected to do over time were you aware he was coming in at the weekends to finish his work
02:54:24 finish his work you would the kensington and you'd need to check that he may have come in once and i said to him there's no requirement to do that sometimes another officer may take some stuff home because they wanted to and i said please don't do that
02:54:36 to and i said please don't do that it's you leave the building and that's your work now you could ask rbkc to get in the building you need to swipe in so you could get a record of how many times he come in and also record all
02:54:47 times he come in and also record all their times in and out i did actually the converse here i did want to actually have a and asked my managers at the time if i could have a signing in and out sheet only because you know they don't seem to
02:54:59 only because you know they don't seem to be around that much necessarily and the other thing i would say is
02:55:04 say is i've worked in other places and it would be typical for surveyors to do around 10 inspections a day do site inspections that's the kind of number you know for more smaller domestic at kensington
02:55:15 more smaller domestic at kensington chelsea the average was nearer between two and three across the office so it was a very different job and not always looking at complex jobs the workload wasn't high at
02:55:26 complex jobs the workload wasn't high at all times but there would be some limited periods as i've mentioned in a smaller team where there's ebbs and flows but we'd manage the best we can
02:55:36 so if we just take this in stages were you aware at the time that he was coming in at the weekends i may have known you come in once afterwards and if you could check the record
02:55:47 record if they've still got them you would know how often you come in but i can only call once and i told you not to do it again
02:55:52 again uh are you suggesting that mr hogan is mistaken when he says he was coming in at the weekend i've got no assertions to make about mr hogan mr hoban gave evidence um that he was
02:56:03 mr hoban gave evidence um that he was going to bed holding a notebook and wasn't sleeping because his workload was so heavy
02:56:08 so heavy did you not notice at the time that he was struggling not at all i had monthly and weekly meetings of him and it's a case a two-way thing about
02:56:19 and it's a case a two-way thing about one asking him you can only open yourself up and offer i encouraged him he had a cough for a long time
02:56:26 time and i actually was coughing in the office and i was getting some comments from other staff and actually working in a very close confine and obviously i always encouraged him to go to the doctors i think i mean if we're talking about personal things if
02:56:37 we're talking about personal things if you're pushing me i think it found out he had a vitamin d deficiency i just can remember that so that was one reason why um at some point he had this cough i think but you need to to check mr hobin said a little later
02:56:51 to check mr hobin said a little later um in his evidence that he felt he could not escalate his concerns any further and again we can go to that it's day 46 158 line 12.
02:57:02 158 line 12. i'll just read it and then i'll ask you a question um page line 12.
02:57:20 and we are on the right page sorry he says um as you as i say you knew i told him about this but i felt i was in a position i felt i was unable to say no to him really were there no facilities or resources offered to you or to provide
02:57:32 resources offered to you or to provide you
02:57:32 you to provided to support you to make sure that you could do your building control job on grenfell to the best of your ability
02:57:39 ability as i said i pointed this out to you i felt i couldn't escalate it any further i just felt that i had to do that i did say on a number of occasions in the office that we needed more staff i felt that we were under resource as i say we were we lost six and then over
02:57:51 say we were we lost six and then over the page
02:57:55 people in well sorry september 2013 and then he goes on to explain who left and then if we go down the page to line 20 mr miller asks
02:58:08 to line 20 mr miller asks so was there a means of escalating it to somebody higher on the management chain mr open says i felt i couldn't do that um
02:58:16 um i just want to understand why you felt that was it a culture in the department that mr hoban says yes and then just to complete the passage over the page mr millet is still asking or just a
02:58:27 mr millet is still asking or just a natural difference on your part and mr hoban says no no i felt you know it was a culture within the department were you aware that mr hoban felt uncomfortable raising
02:58:38 that mr hoban felt uncomfortable raising concerns
02:58:39 concerns i would say kensington chelsea is a when i was there was an excellent employer and as you might expect of a good employer their personnel policies grievance whistleblowing i was in a very
02:58:51 grievance whistleblowing i was in a very small department i know for example john hoeven
02:58:54 hoeven went above me which is good to grease some leave with the person above me graham stalwart so he was free to go and talk as other people were at any time um the borough was a good bible to work
02:59:06 um the borough was a good bible to work with there's lots of opportunities to talk about it i'd have monthly meetings with him weekly meetings with him um it was never the case and i'm not a bully never have been a bully
02:59:17 i'm not a bully never have been a bully with any any staff it's about encouraging them for their own development and also to get the best out of them which is a reasonable thing for a manager to do so i think the answer to my question about whether
02:59:28 answer to my question about whether you're aware is no well well no in but then as i said we've before that we spoke about some health issues i've tried to help him with but it's not requirement that people
02:59:39 but it's not requirement that people employ staff long term that are unwell there's policies and procedures about that so you're encouraging the people to obviously want them to be healthy return to work as they do and then have
02:59:50 return to work as they do and then have reasonable measures part-time work and all those things to help them often working from home so as i was supportive as i could possibly be and um and i'm happy with that you know
03:00:02 and um and i'm happy with that you know as far as my involvement do you recall whether there would be any reason why mr hoban would not feel able to raise his concerns well i'm probably too close to say but i would say not were you aware of a culture within the
03:00:14 were you aware of a culture within the department that made it difficult certainly not in the wider department that it was probably one of the greatest group of people i know they just organize so many things socially football
03:00:26 so many things socially football walking you know walked up snowden um macmillan cake sales it's a very very good department very social across planning and you know and then
03:00:37 across planning and you know and then building control as well you know we'd have uh christmas we bring stuff in we'd all sit around and eat together all those kind of things so it wasn't a
03:00:44 wasn't a culture you would say would be uh bullying at all had anyone else ever raised concerns over the culture within the department not not while i was the manager not culture necessarily i mean there may
03:00:56 culture necessarily i mean there may there's going to be people that have odd grievances and issues you know as people do and they're fully entitled to voice those if they need to you know what about before you were the manager they would
03:01:09 before you were the manager they would be i can't say i can't recall and what grievances you say or grievances and issues um in the time that you were the manager um were you made aware of any grievances
03:01:20 um were you made aware of any grievances by others
03:01:21 by others there was one that was followed through um
03:01:24 um and it was there was nothing found in the the nature of the grievance procedure which is right i guess but it feels that when then nothing happens because it's followed through by senior colleagues and personnel and i
03:01:35 senior colleagues and personnel and i obviously the person there was a grievance he wasn't with john hoban but you feel a little bit when then it's just nothing found all the person that's actually i want to stop you feel a bit because you'd like to get more the bottom of it you know and find
03:01:46 more the bottom of it you know and find out what it is i can't recall what the issue was now actually but uh mr chairman that's um an appropriate moment for us for lunch right how are we getting on um
03:01:58 for lunch right how are we getting on um we have made um decent headway i'll look over lunch um as to how we're getting on but i will need mr allen um after lunch um and i'll consult with um
03:02:09 after lunch um and i'll consult with um ms granger mr millet about how we're doing for the rest of the afternoon yep all right thank you very much well mr and as you heard we're gonna have a break now
03:02:16 break now so we can all get some lunch of course uh we'll come back at five past two please
03:02:22 please and uh please don't talk to anyone about your evidence or anything to do with it okay while you're out of the room okay all right thank you very much we'd like to go with the ushers
03:02:44 to go with the ushers good thank you five past two please
03:03:16 you