RBKC (Building Control) Evidence - Thursday 1st October 2020 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:13 yes would you ask mr tobin to come back in please

00:00:42 uh

00:00:46 all right mr hoban are you ready to carry on yes thank you yes thank you mr chairman mr hoban can we go back to sea three zeroes one three zero three four

00:00:59 four which is the email from neil crawford to you of the 30th of march we saw this email string earlier and this is now the top of the email sent on that day at 12 49 hi john ben

00:01:10 sent on that day at 12 49 hi john ben bailey from harley's is who you might ask

00:01:13 ask for and he gives you his phone number had you spoken to neil crawford again in the days before that email

00:01:22 i believe so but i can't be absolutely certain as i said we had a number of conversations over the time did you also did you ask to speak to someone at harley or was

00:01:34 to speak to someone at harley or was this mr crawford suggesting it i i can't recall sorry did you speak to ben bailey

00:01:48 you know this is five years ago you don't remember whether you do or you didn't i is that what you're saying yes yes

00:01:58 now if we go to sea three zeroes one three zero three six please we can see that about an hour and a half later on the same day

00:02:09 same day 1422 you email a group of people including ben bailey and ricky k at siderise as you can see and also terry ashton

00:02:20 and also terry ashton at and you say that your interpretation and i'm summarizing is that in diagram 33 was that the detail between compartment floors and the cladding is not a cavity barrier

00:02:31 the cladding is not a cavity barrier and should be a fire stop to at least 120 minutes i'm summarizing the email were you aware of any debate within the industry or within

00:02:42 within the industry or within bco circles about whether diagram 33 required a fire stop or a cavity barrier within a rain screen cladding system um we i believe i had subsequent

00:02:54 um we i believe i had subsequent uh discussions with with uh paul afterwards and it as i say there was a confusion about the

00:03:05 as i say there was a confusion about the word fire break and far or fire stopping and and uh and cavity barrier and that's where i believe the the confusion arose indeed but in answer to your question

00:03:17 indeed but in answer to your question right sorry um i'm not aware as far as i can recall now we then go to sca50265 which is the next email from neil

00:03:29 which is the next email from neil crawford the following day 31st of march 2015 and he says hi john unfortunately this problem is not going away the subject of fire barriers is raising a lot of

00:03:41 of fire barriers is raising a lot of concern on site not least because of program and cost i forwarded a copy of diagram 33 of the typical floor detail and we are all miffed i think you might be mystified i'm not sure as to why this detail is not a cavity

00:03:53 as to why this detail is not a cavity barrier in this location please see attached

00:03:57 attached the relationship between the back of the slab and cladding remains the same as the original cladding concrete is retained and therefore the integrity of this relationship at floor level has not been affected the new cladding constitutes an additional layer applied on top not a

00:04:09 additional layer applied on top not a new floor slab interface and therefore the interpretation is that this constitutes a cavity barrier and not a fire stop this has now become something of an issue on site due to program bottleneck and so your earliest response to this

00:04:20 and so your earliest response to this would be appreciated now he annotated a copy of a diagram 33

00:04:31 a copy of a diagram 33 and he attached that to the email do you remember seeing that

00:04:38 not now right now as okay well i'll just put it up in front of you and see if you do it's ex0401296

00:04:54 and you can see that uh here is diagram 33

00:04:59 33 and he puts in red writing in a box in the left-hand bottom corner of the diagram

00:05:07 diagram our first stopping is in the gray location and not between floor slabs straight back of retained concrete cladding

00:05:13 cladding you see that did you have any thoughts about that i can't recall so um hey let's go to har 30s 1379

00:05:23 30s 1379 sorry 13719 which is the final email in this run

00:05:29 this run and i want to start at page two

00:05:36 where you write to uh neil

00:05:42 uh neil uh crawford copy to simon lawrence on the 1st of april 2015 and you say thank you for your email and for the attached drawings showing typical cladding details the matter has now become more clearer i would advise

00:05:54 now become more clearer i would advise you that i have no adverse comments to make on the proposal shown on your drawing

00:05:59 drawing 127906 110 rev naught with regards to compliance with parts b2 and b3 and schedule one of the building regulations did you mean parts b3 and b4 there or

00:06:10 did you mean parts b3 and b4 there or did you should it should have meant b2 b3 and b4 it should have meant b two b three and b before

00:06:18 before i see now we can see that you now have no comments no adverts what caused you to change your mind uh i believe i had discussions with paul

00:06:33 as um say it's so so long ago i as i say it became clearer it just became clear what was it that clarified uh your mind um

00:06:45 uh your mind um like i'd only be guessing i'd say no i don't have a guess was this the first time in your career that you've been asked to give a view on cavity barriers within a rain screen cladding system do you think

00:06:57 cladding system do you think yes it was the first time was this the first time that you looked at diagram 33 in the context of a rain screen cladding system yes as a rig rank screen cladding system

00:07:09 yes as a rig rank screen cladding system yes

00:07:10 yes when you i'm sorry yes when you said i'm so sorry do you want to continue your own

00:07:15 own but obviously i i i looked at it in in relation to other buildings that i uh dealt with when you said you had no adverse comments to make as we can see

00:07:26 adverse comments to make as we can see here from this email did you mean in relation to the cladding system as a whole

00:07:30 whole as detailed on the drawing he was sending you uh to which you refer or do you mean just the cavity barrier issue that had prompted neil crawford to send you the drawing in the category barrier i

00:07:41 drawing in the category barrier i sure perhaps made it clearer at that that's that stage right

00:07:51 i see it it it may just be worth looking at

00:07:55 at the drawing itself it's sea 3013045

00:08:04 or sorry may i qualify that yes in relation to the horizontal uh uh and and the the the sidewise cavity barriers

00:08:15 the sidewise cavity barriers the the compartment floors and and walls i see

00:08:23 so you weren't dealing with cavity barriers around the windows question no it's dealing with the the horizontal right and the vertical i see well this is the drawing that you were sent and

00:08:35 were sent and there's nothing on here i think you could take it from me that actually tells you what the rating of the cavity barrier to be used was do you recall noting that there wasn't anything about the rating

00:08:49 i think in in in other emails there was referring to the standard

00:08:59 well we saw yes we certainly saw the ricky k

00:09:03 ricky k email earlier but there's nothing in the drawing about it did that not ring a bell with you or or an alarm bell particularly now as i say we we were discussing the

00:09:15 now as i say we we were discussing the standard of of of the the fire fire fire barriers in various in various previous emails and it was a

00:09:28 previous emails and it was a question of whether it was uh 120 or all or the the lowest standard

00:09:38 yes if we just blow up just moving on then

00:09:42 then while we're on this drawing you can see that it's

00:09:46 that it's a date of the 24th of september 2013 and this is now march 15. did you wonder why you were being sent a drawing of that antiquity

00:09:59 drawing of that antiquity at this point in the project uh well that was the drawing that was proposed i indeed assumed that that's what they were

00:10:10 assumed that that's what they were working to you know they were giving me up an up-to-date or a drawing that they were

00:10:18 were constructing because that's the drawing that was sent to me did you not go back to them and say why are you sending me a drawing that's 18 months out of date well i don't know whether it was 18 months out of date

00:10:29 months out of date uh okay well if we just blow up the proposed section typical bay on the top right

00:10:40 we may not be able to see enough of it

00:10:48 um i'm not sure we could see enough of it for me to ask my question but did you realize that this

00:10:54 that may help

00:10:59 you can see i think from there we are if we just go across

00:11:05 uh you you can see uh from the various references to h92 so the fifth fifth bubble down there's a reference to zinc cladding and also halfway down zinc

00:11:19 cladding and also halfway down zinc and two thirds of the way down reference to zinc or at the very bottom also h92 zinc

00:11:25 zinc did it not strike you that you were being sent a drawing which described a zinc panels in circumstances where you knew by this stage that the swap had been made to acm i i

00:11:36 that the swap had been made to acm i i was focusing on the on the question that that they asked in relation to cavity barriers right so i've i felt i was answering their questions regards

00:11:47 questions regards that particular item and we can see that this drawing uh doesn't show cavity barriers at jam or sil level round the windows again did that strike you with something from this as i mentioned to you before it was my

00:12:00 as i mentioned to you before it was my my my view that there was cavity barriers

00:12:03 barriers by by framework supporting the windows

00:12:12 [Applause]

00:12:15 right now can we then turn to some questions about workmanship uh

00:12:27 i think you say in your second statement that paragraph 34g that you weren't trained to check on the tested and specified method of installation of cavity barriers that was in relation to sorry in

00:12:40 that was in relation to sorry in relation to cl uh cladding systems sorry i should have been more more i see more clear in my arts that's all right but in relation to cladding systems yes that's probably

00:12:51 cladding systems yes that's probably good enough for my purposes did that lack of training mean that in relation to this rain screen system you were not able to identify

00:12:59 identify whether cavity barriers were properly cut into position no and whether horizontal barriers were installed in a vertical orientation nice

00:13:12 orientation nice what about the ability to spot where the cavity barriers which had an intumescent strip had been installed with the strip facing the wrong way

00:13:20 wrong way so into the building would you been trained to spot that and pick it up i would pick it up through reading the documents but i i didn't have any as it were formal training but

00:13:31 training but something that i would uh know through reading the documentation that that that was the way it was to be

00:13:43 that that that was the way it was to be done

00:13:43 done as i say because the uh the vertical uh barriers had to be close fitting to the to the actual cladding system themselves

00:13:54 themselves and and the lugs would have been at a different center to the horizontal ones and the horizontal uh barriers had a a gap in order that it ventilated

00:14:08 a gap in order that it ventilated now ben bailey who was the project manager of harley on the site from february 2015 onwards has said to the inquiry having been

00:14:19 has said to the inquiry having been shown some photographs taken of the building after the fire that he was shocked

00:14:23 shocked to discover that there were horizontal cavity barriers installed in a vertical position and also what is more the wrong way round with the intumescent strips facing into

00:14:35 with the intumescent strips facing into the building and why did you not pick that those errors

00:14:41 errors up as part of your inspections the areas i saw were fine as i say they were that it was a process that

00:14:49 that they were putting the barriers in and covering up as they went and the areas that i saw uh were okay did you check the installation

00:15:00 were okay did you check the installation of vertical and horizontal cavity barriers in that correctness it's part of your routine when when i went

00:15:07 went up on the uh climber yes i did you did can i ask you to go to bsd401422 please

00:15:27 can i ask you to go to bsd401422 please this is an email from neil crawford to terry ashton of the 18th of september 2014. now you're not copied in on this um but um he

00:15:38 um but um he says uh to terry ashton in the second sentence

00:15:42 sentence having just finished several weeks of fire stopping checks on the kensington aldridge academy where john hoban crawled into almost every conceivable cavity possible with a torch including nearly falling through a

00:15:53 including nearly falling through a suspended ceiling we need to be clear on our position before going to building control

00:15:58 control so when you were going into these cavities

00:16:03 cavities were you looking at fire stopping or cavity barriers themselves on that project

00:16:07 project kalc mixture next year and why didn't you take the same thorough approach on the grenfell tower project that you were taking on

00:16:18 taking on i did you didn't con as far as we can see it

00:16:22 see it crawl into almost every conceivable cavity with the torch did you i think he's over exaggerating there in his uh description uh as i say this was suspended ceilings

00:16:34 uh as i say this was suspended ceilings this this uh [Music]

00:16:38 [Music] this sort of thing right so as i say it's in internally uh as i say looking looking at uh cavity barriers in in suspended ceilings

00:16:53 cavity barriers in in suspended ceilings did you actually ever get to see cavity barriers on site before parts of them were covered up by layers of insulation

00:17:02 there was works in progress and i i saw them working on them uh right and as i say i i was you know what i saw at the time was satisfactory well we've had some

00:17:15 was satisfactory well we've had some evidence earlier in in the inquiry and i'm summarizing the the the cavity barriers when fitted wouldn't be exposed for very long because the wind would remove them and they needed to be held in place essentially by

00:17:27 essentially by the application of the insulation my question is did you ever see the fitting of the cavity barriers before the insulation was applied and covered them up i went at a moment in time and i saw

00:17:39 i went at a moment in time and i saw what i saw on on those particular days i i know but i'm just asking you whether when you went and saw what you saw on those particular days did you ever see cavity barriers

00:17:50 did you ever see cavity barriers fitted before they were covered up by insulation i i can't i can't recall did you ever notice on site that horizontal cavity barriers

00:18:01 horizontal cavity barriers on the spandrels of the compartment floor lines were located at a distance from the head of the window so some way up the spandrel panel not not on the ones that i i viewed right did you ever notice that

00:18:13 i viewed right did you ever notice that the studio e drawings showed a cavity barrier immediately at the head of the window

00:18:22 in the floor floor line uh in in in line with the floor yes did did anybody tell you that when you went to site on on the occasions you did

00:18:33 occasions you did that a decision had been made to raise the cavity barrier even higher than had been shown in the harley drawings to a position higher than that so as to avoid penetrating the epdm

00:18:45 penetrating the epdm membrane around the windows no you don't did you ever yourself measure the distance of the cavity barrier above the windows

00:18:56 barrier above the windows from the head of the window itself i looked at them on site and saw that the ones that i checked were in line with the floor

00:19:08 did you ever see a mock-up or jig or um physical model created either by harley um or by osborne berry which showed where the precise

00:19:20 which showed where the precise the precise location where the cavity barrier should be and measure that against the drawings i i wasn't invited to uh um see a mock-up

00:19:28 mock-up right can i just ask you one or two questions and about the windows can i start with ryd3024038

00:19:43 this is an email from neil crawford of the 18th of november 2014 and i showed you this this morning and it refers to changes being made to the design of the windows and he refers there to the need to make a

00:19:55 refers there to the need to make a planning application and he asks you whether you have any issues with the general operation you can see that um what did you understand at that time to be the proposed changes to the windows

00:20:08 i can't recall did you appreciate that by reducing the size of the windows and moving them out to sit in in the cladding line that would produce a gap

00:20:19 would produce a gap where fire could break out of the flat and into the cladding

00:20:25 as i say my understood my understanding was that there was a framework attached to

00:20:33 to to the uh the existing structure that would act as a support and a cavity barrier

00:20:40 barrier to to the window but this is the reference you made to a steel barrier this morning is it i see

00:20:51 can i ask you to look at paragraph 21 of your first statement on page three

00:20:59 and at paragraph 21 you you say in answer to the question what elements

00:21:07 elements or aspects of the interior of the building at the time of the fire fail to comply with what elements or aspects of what regulations etc you say as far as i can tell now the windows were not fitted in accordance

00:21:18 windows were not fitted in accordance with the building regulations they were not compliant as it appeared the fire barriers were not installed correctly

00:21:24 correctly and the fire stopping hadn't been sealed correctly

00:21:27 correctly are you referring only to the cavity barriers around the windows here well uh

00:21:35 well uh sorry

00:21:40 when you say the fire barriers were not installed correctly what fire barriers are you talking about there

00:21:47 there the the angle the angle of what the angle supporting the windows

00:21:55 is that what you mean by fire barrier yes

00:21:58 yes obviously if if there was any chances that they

00:22:01 that they would be filled up with appropriate materials because it it goes on to say in the regulations how they should be

00:22:11 describes how how cavity barriers should be fitted

00:22:15 be fitted are you referring to anything else there do you think in terms of non-compliance or are you just saying that that angle as you call it was not fit not installed correctly

00:22:52 um sorry bear with me for a moment please yes of course

00:23:16 so aspects well again um the question i haven't answered it fully

00:23:28 the question i haven't answered it fully when i'm and i've been answering that question it would would appear because it says what aspects of the interior um as i said i i don't know what other aspects of the

00:23:42 i i don't know what other aspects of the the interior uh you know whether the doors uh weren't or the new doors weren't

00:23:49 weren't uh when the fire occurred weren't effectively self-closing as far as far as when i did my my final inspection the doors were were fire resisting doors uh

00:24:01 were fire resisting doors uh the smoke stopping that i saw was oh the uh yeah the fire stopping that i saw in my inspections were uh okay uh we could be talking about

00:24:14 uh okay uh we could be talking about uh whether the mechanical ventilation system didn't work properly on the on the evening just focusing on windows can we get a paragraph 33 of your second statement and i'd like to look at page nine which

00:24:27 and i'd like to look at page nine which is the question you're asked at the foot of that page under e did you ever raise concerns about the compliance of the windows at any stage during the project and then if you turn to the top of page 11 10 page 10 you can see your answer

00:24:43 you say possibly yeah during site visits i would make physical noted in my a3 notebook and raise any concerns with the site manager or the person escorting me i've been informed rbkc cannot locate my

00:24:55 i've been informed rbkc cannot locate my notebook

00:24:56 notebook and then if you look at f which is the question

00:24:59 question did you inspect the fitting of the windows during the project if so what did you observe no you say i may have seen parts of the fitting process but i did not inspect the actual fitting of the windows in its entirety

00:25:10 of the windows in its entirety is it more likely that you didn't inspect the windows on site at all i i did how could you have raised questions of compliance of the windows if you didn't inspect their um actual fitting in in

00:25:22 inspect their um actual fitting in in their entirety well the areas i saw were okay uh from what i what i saw but if you don't see the whole of the

00:25:33 but if you don't see the whole of the fitting yeah and just rely on bits of of well how can you be how can you be satisfied in your mind that it's kind of tight with the building as i say as as part of the process when when when

00:25:46 as as part of the process when when when when doing your job you're you're not a resident

00:25:50 resident clerk of works you're coming in and and looking at a particular stage of the work

00:25:58 work and and you're making a judgment uh at that particular at that particular time

00:26:06 time and you've got to take into consideration the standard of work going on elsewhere in the building indeed but my question really is why weren't you approaching this on the

00:26:17 weren't you approaching this on the basis that you needed to see precisely what was going in to the windows by way of materials and design and making sure that each and every element

00:26:28 making sure that each and every element i went in from time to time and what i saw was satisfactory but if you were going in from time to time you were going to miss things that might have been unsatisfactory we i can't be there 24 hours a day or i

00:26:41 we i can't be there 24 hours a day or i mean

00:26:41 mean or seven hours a day you know i'm i'm i'm going and doing a visit i'm spending

00:26:48 spending a certain amount of time looking at the project

00:26:52 project it as in a whole uh as i say look at all various aspects of the building you know what's going on in other parts of the building and as i say i i

00:27:05 and as i say i i i've got i can only spend so much time time there and as i say what i saw at the times uh

00:27:16 what i saw at the times uh uh were okay why couldn't you approach it on the basis that you would take a particular window set and ask ryden or harley to show you

00:27:27 and ask ryden or harley to show you precisely how it was built up how it was fitted check it against the drawings and then do a spot check of the rest of the building to make sure that there were no generic flaws i i i didn't i know

00:27:39 i i i didn't i know but as i say what i saw at the time when i was going doing my my my visits that there were no issues as far as i was concerned

00:27:54 we'll come to site visitors in just a moment um

00:27:57 moment um before i leave this question did you look in the gaps between the new window and the old window where insulation had been installed

00:28:07 i don't recall did you ever inspect a window

00:28:11 window or window set from inside the flat a flat

00:28:15 flat rather than from outside on a on the hoist

00:28:19 hoist i can't recall

00:28:25 and one or two questions on the crown we've seen one or two drawings of the crown that i showed you earlier did you ever ask for full details of the design of the crown

00:28:36 design of the crown i saw drawings of the crown and i inspected

00:28:41 the the crown did you appreciate at the time

00:28:45 time that the crown could have been a mechanism for external fire spread as i said uh in my uh previously there there was uh in my view

00:28:57 there there was uh in my view uh uh no requirement for for for uh additional uh uh

00:29:07 uh uh cavity barriers uh under their underapproved document b did you ever actually inspect the crown on site

00:29:15 site i did and i did with paul hansen

00:29:22 and did you note what it was comprised of acm panels with a pe core well as i say acm panels did you or and paul hanson when you inspected it

00:29:33 and paul hanson when you inspected it have a conversation about what the panels were made of at the crown i don't recall right if if i may uh that was a meeting

00:29:44 if if i may uh that was a meeting uh that paul and i attended at the request of uh simon lawrence because there was an additional power cable being installed in the building and he

00:29:56 being installed in the building and he wanted our advice on that so we did a full inspection of of the building on that particular day right as i say we went up to the roof and we looked at that

00:30:07 and we looked at that you did would you remember when roughly um

00:30:12 as i say it was the time when they were putting uh this this uh or about to put an additional power cable in in the

00:30:23 additional power cable in in the in the call right and you say you inspected the entirety of what we we walked the building we we looked around the uh we looked around the uh

00:30:35 uh we looked around the uh the low levels we went up and looked at the the lobbies at various level various levels and we went up and and and looked at the crown as i say well we

00:30:46 and looked at the crown as i say well we may come to that in the course of your evidence about the site visits to which i now want to turn if i can as a new topic um can we turn first to your first witness statement

00:30:57 your first witness statement at page nine and look at paragraph 84.

00:31:03 and you say page 84 inspections were carried out by myself paul hanson john allen parvinder verdi also in august stroke september 2015 i was absent following an operation

00:31:15 was absent following an operation and i was informed by the project manager that one of my colleagues visited the site in my absence just on that i think it's right you came back from leave on on the 8th of october 2015.

00:31:26 2015. you say that elsewhere well i had an opera

00:31:29 opera i had an operation uh as i say in in in august and i was off for some time

00:31:36 time yes and then i had some leave in september

00:31:40 september and i also had some leave in october yeah but i think you came back in early october no i i came in in between okay um now looking at what's uh said there

00:31:52 now looking at what's uh said there because you you mentioned your operation

00:31:56 how was it decided which of the building control officers would undertake individual inspections just generally

00:32:04 uh fancall would come in for a request for a visit and and either i i believe john uh john allen may have

00:32:16 i i believe john uh john allen may have uh uh allocated but if he wasn't there it may have been jose norman i think and what system did you have in place generally in rbkc's building

00:32:27 place generally in rbkc's building control department to ensure that you communicated effectively amongst yourselves about those visits

00:32:41 well i when i when i personally when i i went to a job for somebody else i would

00:32:47 would i would inform them and put the notes in in

00:32:50 in in accolade in academia but i would also uh inform somebody that i've been been to uh

00:33:01 that i've been been to uh their site but i don't know whether there was any actual written policy as regards that if you turn to page 11 of your state

00:33:12 if you turn to page 11 of your state first statement and look at paragraph 101

00:33:18 i'm sorry it's page 10 actually at the bottom first of all you say following such inspections if my conclusions recommendation were of a minor nature and i was confident that the builders would deal with the matters i raised

00:33:30 would deal with the matters i raised my concerns would simply be noted in my notebook and recorded on accolade accordingly and if you go over the page now please to page 11 of paragraph 102 you say

00:33:41 if my concerns were serious in addition to the above i would return to check that my recommendations had been implemented if they had not then i would escalate it to my line manager and take according action which could include

00:33:52 according action which could include serving formal natives to correct the works

00:33:56 yes can you give us an example of what you would consider to be a serious matter [Music]

00:34:04 [Music] or a serious concern all right i i had a uh

00:34:09 uh a project uh where where uh they hadn't put the drains in correctly and covered over uh the drains and i could see that they had been done

00:34:21 could see that they had been done in incorrectly uh they also did uh put the staircase in correctly and they put some steel working

00:34:32 and they put some steel working incorrectly now uh with that i actually met met the owner of of the property um and we went through all the issues

00:34:45 um and we went through all the issues and they agreed to open up informally and and correct these issues or they were in the process of creating uh correcting these issues before i left

00:34:57 uh correcting these issues before i left on the grenfell tower i'm sorry sorry another example would be [Music]

00:35:03 [Music] if i saw people

00:35:09 doing dangerous work practices and i would uh you know excavating uh uh unsupported uh carrying out

00:35:20 uh uh unsupported uh carrying out excavations without without supporting uh putting temporary works in properly i would call call the office and and get

00:35:31 i would call call the office and and get one of the dangerous structures surveyors to go and look at it accordingly yeah thank you on the granville tower project do you recall having any serious concerns that required you to return to check that your

00:35:42 return to check that your recommendations have been implemented there was a well there was at the at the end i i did a number of visits i did

00:35:54 a letter with uh writing uh what what i saw at that that time i would i would uh as regards fire stopping that i could see

00:36:07 fire stopping that i could see uh exposed for example in in the cupboards

00:36:11 cupboards uh in the cause and i'm so making making good in petitions i could see those at my neck

00:36:22 those at my neck my next visit so they were minor matters but uh but you know i could or obviously important matters but i could see that they had been done

00:36:34 but i could see that they had been done uh i don't recall ever escalating anything on on grenfell

00:36:44 now going back to uh this question of mock-ups that we talked about uh just a little bit earlier on this afternoon um mr berry graham berry of osborne

00:36:56 um mr berry graham berry of osborne berry

00:36:56 berry gave evidence on day 41 that uh somebody from building control had seen a mock-up

00:37:03 a mock-up that they had done showing where the cavity barriers were to go and our reference to that is day 41 page 45 at line 8 to 46 910 and i think you said you never saw

00:37:14 910 and i think you said you never saw such a mock-up is that right correct i don't know who who went to my my place and he he also said and this is day 41 page 55

00:37:26 also said and this is day 41 page 55 9-19 that there were occasions when work was left uncovered and could have been inspected

00:37:32 inspected do you agree with that from what you saw no no not not from what i saw

00:37:39 um how would you be able to check for compliance of the insulation with the build with the building regulations both in terms of the product being used and

00:37:50 being used and design and installation if it had been covered up by the rain screen panels when you inspected i saw i saw certain aspects when i visited you did yes you say certain aspects

00:38:03 yes you say certain aspects well i i saw the installation as i say they would go down and they would they would uh as i say i could

00:38:10 could see what what they were using at the time and i visited were you ever offered the opportunity to undertake a site visit while the wiring and pipe work and fire stopping and cavity barriers

00:38:21 cavity barriers and insulation or any of those were still exposed

00:38:26 well it was an ongoing process and i would see those when i came in right so it depends very much on what you saw on the day i think is what you're saying uh

00:38:38 yes uh i i did or we did ask for uh obviously we we witnessed tests on various services

00:38:49 witnessed tests on various services we've called him specifically to witness tests on on on various services

00:38:57 [Music] and

00:39:01 and as i say uh i mentioned about about the visit where they called us specifically in

00:39:08 in to to look at this additional cable do you remember where the osborne berry took you up the building in the mass climber to see what had been installed before the planning panels were

00:39:19 before the planning panels were installed

00:39:22 i i would as i say the the point of contact would be that the office yes that the ryden's office because they're the principal contractor the reason i ask is that ben bailey in his statement of paragraph 13

00:39:35 his statement of paragraph 13 for the reference har-301060 page five they need to have it up uh says that osborne berry took you up the building to see what had been installed before the cladding

00:39:46 been installed before the cladding panels went on no that's that's wrong as i say there was a procedure where i would go in sign in and go to the office and then a ryden's

00:39:57 and go to the office and then a ryden's person

00:39:57 person would escort me round round the building did you ever make a visit to site where osborne berry accompanied you or attended your visit uh

00:40:18 they were workmen there there but uh and there was a gentleman um

00:40:25 i think his his name was but as a uh who who who may have been there when i was with ryden right taff is mark osborne is he i'm

00:40:39 right taff is mark osborne is he i'm right

00:40:40 right you remember you remember someone called taff yes did you go around the building with taff

00:40:44 with taff no i would go around the building with with with a ryden person did you discuss the cladding works with anyone from the clerk of works such as for example john white

00:40:55 such as for example john white i met him on on two occasions on well i met him on three occasions actually

00:41:03 actually first time when i was introduced to him uh

00:41:07 uh a second time i did a a joint inspection on the mass climber which i can't remember the date and then on the

00:41:17 on the on the 12th of january 2016.

00:41:23 there was the graduate who had joined us we we did a joint inspection that that that day with him we didn't we didn't do

00:41:33 didn't do the inside of the building but we we met him at mass climber and we went with her

00:41:41 it may have been and i can't be absolutely certain uh david hughes but there was certainly a ryden's representative and and the the clarke works

00:41:54 and and the the clarke works um

00:41:58 yes was the the clerk of works present more than

00:42:02 more than on three occasions during your site inspections or just the three that you can recall that's the only time i actually recall seeing him but obviously he had a role

00:42:15 seeing him but obviously he had a role where he was he i was there on honor all day on on certain certain days what did you understand the scope of his role to be i thought he

00:42:26 the scope of his role to be i thought he were all

00:42:28 were all a resident clerk of works performing a traditional clerk of works role or performing something different no uh traditional clocker works did anybody ever tell you that he was only there as the eyes and ears of the tmo no

00:42:40 as the eyes and ears of the tmo no that's not the case that's i just want to ask you one or two questions did you finish sounds like you want to see a bit more no as i say he was it was my understanding there was another clarker works there as well

00:42:52 another clarker works there as well dealing with services the two clerk of works um i just want to ask you one or two questions about the record of your inspections before we turn to the inspections themselves now can we go to your second statement

00:43:03 now can we go to your second statement at page 20 please and look at paragraph 51 b and you say uh there uh in answer to the question please

00:43:15 uh in answer to the question please describe how any information was recorded and disseminated in practice you say my understanding is that we were expected to place all site notes on accolade in practice this did not occur in respect of how i worked i would make

00:43:26 in respect of how i worked i would make notes in my notebook my outlook calendar and sometimes on accolade when you refer to an expectation that a building control officer would place all notes on accolade

00:43:38 all notes on accolade whose expectation was that well it's my expectation in the office how was that expectation communicated was there a written policy or statement or guidance or something

00:43:50 or statement or guidance or something like that

00:43:51 like that i don't know whether there was any written policy no note on or i don't recall then as i say there was

00:43:59 was back in i think 2006

00:44:06 john jackson did uh

00:44:10 did a document in response to uh in response to the performance standards

00:44:21 ah yes just i think i just i think it's a yes or no was there a written policy or guidance um or as to putting site notes

00:44:32 um or as to putting site notes onto accolade if it was it would have been that document okay i don't recall any other pos i may i just say that i did request

00:44:43 i may i just say that i did request uh copies of all all policy uh documents from from the council and as i say there [Music]

00:44:54 [Music] i wasn't given given access to to to all i was given access to certain uh documents well i i think the council

00:45:08 uh documents well i i think the council would say or they would ask me to to say that they had given all disclosure of all relevant documents in their possession for the record to make that clear but can i then ask you a question

00:45:20 can i then ask you a question you say in practice this did not occur in other words placing on site notes on accolade my question is why did you not adhere to the policy in practice well i did

00:45:31 practice well i did but uh on looking at at uh going back through my my records there are some notes missing why is that

00:45:42 there are some notes missing why is that um i i i can't explain it's not consistent with the way i'd i did my work

00:45:53 but do you accept that without a comprehensive record of site visits it wouldn't be possible for anybody to verify what was done in the course of considering a building

00:46:05 in the course of considering a building control application

00:46:09 can we then turn to um frequency of expectations you've already told us i think that you decided to do one once a month um can i go to to mr hughes's witness

00:46:21 um can i go to to mr hughes's witness statement he was ryden at ryd 3-0 is 94213 and i want to show you page 12 please at paragraph 61.1

00:46:41 and he summarizes his interaction with building control and he starts in that subparagraph by saying on 30th of october 2015 was my first contact with rbkc building

00:46:53 was my first contact with rbkc building control when i requested a site visit from john hoban on 2nd of november 2015. so steve and i that's

00:47:00 that's steve blake could discuss the project with him

00:47:04 with him and then if you go over the page to paragraph 61.2 he says i requested that john hoban visit site to inspect the cladding on 11 november 2015 to discuss what he

00:47:15 on 11 november 2015 to discuss what he required

00:47:16 required to see it sign off or signed off and he says we went up the west and north elevations then if you go over the page again please to paragraph 61.5

00:47:28 please to paragraph 61.5 this is at a later stage again he says i arranged for john hoban to visit the site on

00:47:32 site on 12th of january 2016 at 9 00 a.m to go the master climbers again then at the bottom of that page in paragraph 61.8 he says

00:47:42 says i requested a site a visit by john hoban following which he attended site on 12th of may

00:47:47 of may 2016 and walked around the lower four floors

00:47:52 floors he's identified four occasions in his evidence on which he asked you to make a visit was it common practice for your visits to arise as a result of a request from a contractor

00:48:03 contractor rather than a proactive decision yourself to introduce i would have

00:48:10 we had what was known as uh site inspection reports so it would come up when you've done your last visits and we would

00:48:21 visits and we would we would go through that and use that as a as a

00:48:29 an aid to to prompt us to to visit but uh sometimes that was unreliable because uh for some unknown reason uh

00:48:41 uh for some unknown reason uh jobs would not show up on on on those uh site inspection reports and we would i would have monthly meetings with with john allen and we would go through

00:48:55 with john allen and we would go through my job sheets how do you account for the fact that at least four of these visits to grenfell tower arose as a result of you're being asked to attend by ryden as opposed to going along voluntarily

00:49:08 as opposed to going along voluntarily well i knew they were were with you too

00:49:12 he he he kept i i would have gone myself but he called me can you look at

00:49:28 rbk3044888 this looks as if it's if i may sorry if we go back uh as i say there was a time when uh john allen went in my absence in

00:49:41 uh john allen went in my absence in march i had a uh i wasn't available march 16 yes so there was march uh yeah can we go to rbk three zeroes four four eight eight eight please

00:49:52 eight eight eight please and this is from you uh looks like a an outlook entry the strange document um because

00:50:00 because it looks like an email from you um but it's

00:50:03 it's it bears david hughes's um legend and details at the bottom uh can you explain this document

00:50:16 no i i think what what it well it's obviously it's uh a prompt for me to to to visit i we had a process in the office where where we would put our

00:50:27 where we would put our our visits on in our outlook calendar and there was also uh we had

00:50:34 uh we had some spreadsheets that were shared amongst

00:50:37 amongst the surveyors so that we could actually see where where people were to on a particular day

00:50:48 to on a particular day and if somebody wasn't in for some unknown reason we would have access to the list of visits

00:50:55 visits that they they had and and those visits could be picked up i see do how did you arrange visits

00:51:07 i see do how did you arrange visits in practice with ryden did you send the calendar invite to them or an email or a phone call how is it done in general uh it could be a phone call right i don't know whether i sent

00:51:21 right i don't know whether i sent send e emails as as as well um now i want to turn to if i i'm so sorry do you want to know sorry that's okay do you want john

00:51:33 know sorry that's okay do you want john to finish the answer is anything else you want to tell us as i say it was a site that you couldn't just walk into there's a number of sites like that an appointment would have to be made and as i say because you needed somebody

00:51:45 and as i say because you needed somebody to walk around there needed to be one of ryden's staff to accompany you yes on the site it wasn't

00:51:53 wasn't it wasn't like you could walk you know walk in off the streets i know i understand that i just wondered how it was that the contact was made yeah um i want to ask you some questions about some of the specific site

00:52:04 about some of the specific site inspections you made i just want to be clear i'm not going to ask you about every single one we have the clerk of works reports and we have ryden's progress reports to tell us when they occurred and some of the content about it so i'm

00:52:16 and some of the content about it so i'm going to try and take this economically if i can

00:52:19 if i can i want to set it in some context chronologically too we've already discussed your site visits in 2014 and i think we've got your pre-start visit on the 29th of august your a visit on the 29th of

00:52:31 august your a visit on the 29th of september

00:52:32 september 2014 we discussed your site meeting on the 24th of november 2014 and there was according to accolade a further site visit on the 27th of november 2014 and i mentioned

00:52:43 27th of november 2014 and i mentioned those to get the chronology straight

00:52:48 there is a meeting then on the 16th of january 2015 and we can get that from jrp

00:52:58 60168 at page two

00:53:03 and this is a clock of works site inspection report dated 4th of february 2015.

00:53:10 2015. that's uh jrp six 60168

00:53:16 uh and if we can go to page one we can get the date this is the fourth of february 2015. it's report number three and they're all in the same format i should just say but the inspection date data set out there in each of them

00:53:28 data set out there in each of them the top right hand corner and if we can go to page two you can see under review site inspection log building control last building control site visit was friday 16th

00:53:39 friday 16th january 2015 and commented on the fireproofing the sockets putty pads are similar to the the party uh walls and the fireproofing and acoustic

00:53:50 and the fireproofing and acoustic details in the partitions so that's partition walls and the fireproofing and acoustic details in the partitions these will be inspected when work is carried out uh was that you who conducted that visit

00:54:01 uh was that you who conducted that visit do you think uh i can't i can't i can't be certain the reason i ask is there's no record of this visit in accolade are you able to explain that um

00:54:14 are you able to explain that um as i say it may be that it didn't take my

00:54:18 my my my my note as a as i mentioned some of my

00:54:22 of my my notes are are not there yes i know is this one of them it may be okay um then if we turn on to the

00:54:30 the next meeting um uh this is jrp

00:54:37 one 5016 nine please page one to start with

00:54:46 this is the inspection date 17th of february

00:54:50 and if we go to page two we can see again under site review log building control

00:54:58 you can see there it it says last building control site visit was tuesday 17th of february 2000 well 17th february and it's 2015 with no

00:55:09 well 17th february and it's 2015 with no issues

00:55:10 issues again do you recall that visit um i i can't recall at this stage and the reason i ask is your accolade notes don't have any

00:55:21 notes don't have any records of visits between november 2014 and may 2015. and again do you know why that's not in there as i say uh united visits uh right and um to say

00:55:34 uh right and um to say i don't know why it's it's not consistent with the way why i would would normally work

00:55:43 [Applause] let's move on then to the spring of 2015 and i want to ask you about meetings or site visits on the 7th or

00:55:56 meetings or site visits on the 7th or 15th of may 2015

00:55:59 2015 [Music]

00:56:01 [Music] and if we start with ryd3041667 please

00:56:13 this is ryden's progress report number 11 reporting on the progress period 17th of april 15 to the 15th of may 2015.

00:56:23 2015. can we look at page 12

00:56:27 item 7 building control do you see it says building control were on site on friday 15 may to inspect the top three floors

00:56:38 15 may to inspect the top three floors for insulation fire break and window insulate installation on three elevation did you undertake those inspections on the 15th of may i i can't can't recall sorry you don't remember

00:56:50 can't recall sorry you don't remember therefore what procedure was followed for the inspection of the windows at that inspection nor whether the inspections would have included the window trim or something like that no um

00:57:03 or something like that no um this was may uh may was may 15 may 15. um

00:57:14 i don't know whether as i say there was a stage in in in in uh in april uh where where i got another area uh from from from john

00:57:27 another area uh from from from john allen to look at look at the uh uh to look after and there there was a time where i did

00:57:40 i did i i didn't uh there was a gap uh in order that i uh deal with those particular jobs before

00:57:51 before going into hospital and having an operation so i was given as i say approximately 50 i think it was about 55 jobs and i felt that it was a priority

00:58:03 jobs and i felt that it was a priority to to go around and look at those particular jobs to find out what stage they were i didn't have as i say any major concert or

00:58:16 as i say any major concert or conce or major concerns and there was a two clerk of works on the job uh

00:58:23 job uh and there was a a number of levels of supervision on on site

00:58:31 as i say there was ryden's our own guys and then obviously subcontractors uh foreman and say two two clarker works

00:58:43 uh foreman and say two two clarker works so uh so my main priority at that stage was obviously dealing with with this new area that i was dealing with and

00:58:54 with and uh jobs

00:58:57 uh jobs where where things were not going right and and could escalate into uh major problems

00:59:09 into uh major problems i understand about your workload yeah what i'm trying to explain is how i prioritized at that particular time i understand uh where when making judgments where when

00:59:23 where when making judgments where when to

00:59:23 to to visit yes i understand in your in your last answer just now you said that

00:59:30 that you had no major concerns and there were two clerks of works on the site as well as ryden's own guys and subcontractors foreman does that tell us that you are relying on

00:59:41 on them to get it right no because they're not building control no no i'm not relying on them to to to do to to do uh

00:59:53 to do to to do uh my my job but i can i have to prioritize where where i visit and i can only do so many visits in a day in

01:00:04 i can only do so many visits in a day in a week

01:00:06 a week and as i say i i i have to look and and prioritize where where i need to go

01:00:14 go did you not say to john allen look i'm overstretched i can't do all these jobs properly i i i i got to i've got to give most of

01:00:25 i i i i got to i've got to give most of my attention to this specialist complex project

01:00:28 project i i did ask for for help uh in i think was april 2015 uh because when it gave me the the new area

01:00:39 area i felt that i was i was be being or

01:00:48 that i was struggling with my workload i i made a number of suggestions about what we should do with celia's

01:01:02 area and the work in there

01:01:05 and none of those suggestions were taken up

01:01:10 up and i i felt i was in a position that i couldn't refuse i was instructed to deal

01:01:17 to deal with with that additional area and i had to take it on are you sure in your own mind that those managing you knew clearly

01:01:30 what the difficulties were that you were going through yes you know as i say i was uh uh i had uh health issues

01:01:41 uh i had uh health issues going on uh [Music]

01:01:44 [Music] which i uh sometimes i i had to go home early from work or because i i was unwell i was going to

01:01:55 because i i was unwell i was going to various hospital appointments i was gay which obviously i let my manager know i was i mentioned to him about my high

01:02:07 i was i mentioned to him about my high blood pressure on a couple of uh occasions um

01:02:14 uh as i say that you know i i i told him about about this but i felt i was in a position i i i felt i was unable to say

01:02:25 i i i felt i was unable to say say say no to him

01:02:29 really were there no facilities or resources

01:02:33 resources offered to you or provided to you to support you

01:02:37 to make sure that you could do your building control job on grenfell to the best of your

01:02:46 ability

01:02:52 um as i said i i pointed this out out to i i felt i couldn't escalate it uh any any

01:03:03 it uh any any any further i just felt that i i had to do that uh i did say on a number of

01:03:10 number of occasions in the office that we needed more staff i i felt that we were under resourced uh as i say we we were we we lost six

01:03:21 uh as i say we we were we we lost six people in

01:03:22 people in in uh uh well um sorry september 2013 when five of my colleagues retired and

01:03:37 when five of my colleagues retired and michael nguyen passed away and then subsequently uh hilary wyatt left or not left she went into the planning department and i got her area and then as i say

01:03:50 and i got her area and then as i say and then i got celia's area in the april and i was told i was in a better position than my colleagues to

01:04:02 position than my colleagues to to deal with that and i you know i i was coming in at weekends to to try and keep on top of my work i used to i used to go to to bed at

01:04:14 i used to i used to go to to bed at night

01:04:15 night with a notebook thinking about what you know about jobs and some nights some nights i wasn't sleeping at all you said that you didn't feel you could

01:04:26 you said that you didn't feel you could escalate it further you didn't feel you could say no no why why couldn't you do i just that that's what i felt you know the decision in the past decisions were made by

01:04:39 in the past decisions were made by managers

01:04:39 managers and you know they made the decisions it we weren't brought in for for for [Music]

01:04:49 [Music] to discuss those proposals it was this is what

01:04:53 is what you're doing

01:04:56 so you there was no means was there a means of of escalating it to somebody higher up the management chain i felt i couldn't do that

01:05:08 i felt i couldn't do that i just want to understand why you felt that was it a culture in the in the department or yes or just a natural diffidence no no i felt it was a you know what you know it was a culture within the

01:05:20 you know it was a culture within the department

01:05:24 coming back to the site visits themselves can i ask you to look at

01:05:31 art404173 please

01:05:38 and i'd like us to have up pages three and four of that document together so we can look at item 5.1 at the bottom of that page i should just say this is the note of progress meeting number 11

01:05:49 the note of progress meeting number 11 on site

01:05:49 on site on the 19th of may 2015.

01:05:56 and if we look at the bottom of page

01:06:00 page 3 5.1 under health and safety building control visited site on the 15th of may to 15th of may to inspect the top three floors for insulation fire break and window installation on three

01:06:11 window installation on three elevations and had no adverse comments you see that now just noting that can i ask you to go to jrp

01:06:20 to jrp 50160 please

01:06:27 this is jrp's uh inspection report with the inspection date is the 12th of may 2015 and if we go to page

01:06:39 12th of may 2015 and if we go to page two

01:06:39 two under the building control section it reads

01:06:42 reads last building control site can you see that

01:06:45 that last building control site visit was friday 15th of may 2015. the only observation was that further details of the cladding fire breaks were required

01:06:54 required riding to confirm if they have done this

01:06:59 what were what were the further details of the cladding fire breaks required i think i was asking for further in in information for our records further information about

01:07:10 information about well i i had i got limited information from from from from them limited on what what was it about the cladding

01:07:22 on what what was it about the cladding fire breaks which you needed further details of well they they

01:07:26 they they as i say um

01:07:42 i can't be certain but as i say obviously

01:07:45 obviously i've asked for information as i say i was asking for for information did you get further information that you asked for i some i did some ideas right and the we

01:07:57 some i did some ideas right and the we saw just now the ryden note that you had no adverse comments

01:08:01 comments and yet here we see building uh the building control section of the jrp report

01:08:05 report saying that you had further as you wanted further details well as regards that you know the location of the of of the of the breaks as

01:08:16 of the of the breaks as you know is that what it was about yes right that's what i i believe to be at the time i see

01:08:35 [Applause] can we go back to your second witness statement

01:08:40 statement at page 10 please uh and just pick up a point

01:08:44 point we looked at i think earlier a paragraph 33

01:08:48 33 f where you were asked did you inspect the fitting of the windows we saw this before you said no i may have seen parts of the fitting process

01:08:57 process but i did not inspect the actual fitting of the windows in its entirety now that's a general answer to a general question

01:09:04 question at this point in time so um may 2015 um

01:09:11 2015 um did you have the opportunity at that point to inspect the windows on this visit 15th of may 15th i i can't i ca

01:09:18 i ca i can't recall right is there a reason why you

01:09:22 why you you might not have undertaken a d a more detailed inspection at that time as i said i went or i i went and i recorded what what what i saw but uh as i say there

01:09:35 what what i saw but uh as i say there was nothing that that stood out at the time uh again i would say go to site i may have i don't know

01:09:47 say go to site i may have i don't know how how

01:09:48 how how how many visits to do so i would spend you know the time the time the time do you accept that you you yourself had an opportunity at that stage to

01:09:59 an opportunity at that stage to intervene

01:10:01 intervene and stop any poor design of the window or manner of installation i didn't i didn't i didn't see that at the time it didn't see it right did you on that inspection compare

01:10:13 right did you on that inspection compare what you were seeing in relation to the windows

01:10:15 windows and the fire breaks as you've caught as you call them with the drawings and double check that what was being installed at that stage was uh i would physically take take the

01:10:26 uh i would physically take take the drawings up on onto the climate climber with me uh as i say i would see that they were uh installed or the ones that i saw

01:10:38 uh installed or the ones that i saw were at the appropriate level the compartment floors and walls i think you said yeah and as i said the car they had at the the collar columns at various points they were

01:10:50 columns at various points they were working on on on those right can we go to an email ryd30 is eight nine 3089251 please this is an email from

01:11:03 this is an email from danny osgood of ryden 19th of june 2015 to simon o'connor um

01:11:14 of ryden simon all queries concerning firebreak

01:11:17 firebreak were addressed and closed out building control have stated they do not need to return and will until we begin to hang panels

01:11:24 panels um did you say that did you tell me i actually i don't recall ever ever meeting or seeing danny osgood on on site did you tell anyone at ryden

01:11:38 on on site did you tell anyone at ryden that building control don't need to return

01:11:41 return until they begin to hang panels no how can you account for that email um that's what he i like you know that's what he's told his manager but

01:11:52 manager but that is not the case as i say i don't actually recall ever ever meeting the gentleman right mr osgood was asked about this conversation on day 30 at page 152 line 16 and he said that

01:12:04 line 16 and he said that it could well have been you that told him that building control didn't need to return until hanging of the panels began no that's not the case as i said i don't ever recall meeting a gentleman

01:12:16 i don't ever recall meeting a gentleman on site moving on to the 17th of august 2015

01:12:21 2015 our records indicate that there was no building control inspection at all in the period july and june and july 2015 correct and was there a decision that none should take place

01:12:33 should take place was there a positive decision that there should be no building control in visits in those two months as i say i was

01:12:40 was was dealing with with the the new area that i was given i needed to establish what was going on on those particular jobs plus the new

01:12:51 on those particular jobs plus the new work that was uh coming in uh and [Applause] and where there were uh problem issues on site that i

01:13:02 on site that i i deal with them so it was a question of prior prioritizing my my work at that time as i say i from my previous visits

01:13:16 as i say i from my previous visits uh to the job uh i didn't see uh anything that i considered an escalation

01:13:29 anything that i considered an escalation as i say i'd work with a lot of these people before uh on on all the the consultants on on on the job before it had

01:13:42 on on on the job before it had a project manager it had two clocker works

01:13:46 works on on on lots of my jobs there was no no form of uh supervision or project manager

01:13:54 manager uh the workmanship could be of a very poor standard they could be i could go on site and there'd be no drawings on site

01:14:05 there'd be no drawings on site or they were doing things in a dangerous manner

01:14:08 manner so those i considered to be a higher priority at that stage are you saying that because grenfell tower to your understanding had a team of experienced professionals

01:14:20 a team of experienced professionals you were less than ruth you were less ruthless and rigorous than you would have been

01:14:24 have been if they've not been no no well i have to admit i

01:14:27 admit i i've i can only do so much in a day uh mr millet and i have to prioritize my work

01:14:35 work yes and as i say uh i have to as i say make judgments uh if if i had more time and i had less

01:14:46 uh if if i had more time and i had less work

01:14:47 work uh i i could have spent more time on my other jobs i you know i had i don't know that time um maybe 120

01:14:58 that time um maybe 120 130 jobs too you know every job has got you know got different different challenges yeah i understand that but by

01:15:09 challenges yeah i understand that but by my question i was simply seeking to understand the rationale for the prioritization and i think you're telling us that you prioritize these other jobs other jobs over grenfell because of the

01:15:20 other jobs over grenfell because of the presence of people whom you thought were experienced no no

01:15:23 no no no that was one consideration as i say the the other consideration was what i had seen before on site

01:15:35 what i had seen before on site now here we have a period of three months that goes by from the 15th of may until the 17th of

01:15:42 17th of august yes during which time um may you want to interrupt me yes if i made

01:15:49 made i believe jose anon went in in my absence

01:15:53 absence right do you know when um i i don't because his note's not there i believe he he was called in in my absence uh also pavinder verdi was called in on a

01:16:05 pavinder verdi was called in on a dangerous structure at some stage uh he was called out by one weekend i believe by either either the council or the police to

01:16:16 to to to

01:16:21 look at the cladding because uh a report went

01:16:25 went in

01:16:32 now did you have a discussion with with jose anon

01:16:39 anon about his site visit that you can now recall when you or before you made your site visit in the august of 2015.

01:16:51 i know he went went to site and uh as i say he told me that he'd been been to site

01:16:59 to site site that's at some stage and pravinder told

01:17:03 told uh verdi also told me that he'd been called us

01:17:07 called us so my question is whether you had a discussion with mr anon about his site visit

01:17:13 visit so that you could then when you came back to it in the august of 2015 could could understand what it is he'd seen and he decided i think he just told me uh

01:17:22 uh as i say i'm i'm i'm i i shouldn't speculate all right sorry um now

01:17:29 um now um

01:17:31 um [Applause]

01:17:35 i think you were off in september yes 2015.

01:17:44 yes 2015. um do you think it was jose anon who attended in september 2015. i i i couldn't tell you right um now

01:17:59 right um now you you because you deal with this in your statement of paragraph 84. um can i just ask you to look please at ryd

01:18:06 ryd three zeros five five one three zero this is a photograph which was taken in october

01:18:16 october 2015.

01:18:19 and we can see if we look at it

01:18:24 that on the left-hand side there are some instant insulation panels with kingspan branding on it we may need to blow that up a little bit but you can actually see

01:18:36 but you can actually see kingspan branding do you remember seeing kingspan branding from your visits in the the autumn of 2015. i don't recall seeing

01:18:47 of 2015. i don't recall seeing seeing those did you know that kingspan insulation panels had been fitted to this building not at

01:18:58 had been fitted to this building not at the time

01:18:59 the time or up to uh when i cleared the job no did nobody from a ryden or harley or studio e

01:19:07 studio e tell you that in lieu of celetex panels rs 5000 panels some kingspan cool them k15 panels had been ordered

01:19:18 been ordered and put on the building no [Applause]

01:19:29 if you had known or seen that what would you have done do you think i would have gone and looked at the bba certificate right can we then go to november 2015 and look at rbk3052478 at

01:19:43 november 2015 and look at rbk3052478 at page four please

01:19:56 um this at page four this is a note of your site visit on the second of november 2015 cladding inspection and meeting with new

01:20:07 cladding inspection and meeting with new project manager you see that yeah who was the new project manager that you met i believe it was david hughes david hughes yes and uh what did your cladding inspection involved do you remember

01:20:17 remember i i don't think i i think i may have just popped in that particular day he may have phoned me to uh introduce himself

01:20:26 himself to to himself to me right and i may have had uh unable to actually do it as i say uh

01:20:37 actually do it as i say uh uh without i i mentioned about um my my

01:20:44 um my my my visits in the past i haven't had access

01:20:48 access to to those as i say there is a there are spreadsheets i believe whether they've been retained that would show everybody's visits on those particular days

01:21:00 those particular days so you know i would say it may give an indication of how many visits i was doing on that particular day

01:21:09 day let's go to rbk3010782 please mr minute are we going to have a break before uh um yeah yes we could i mean we could take one now or we could get to

01:21:21 we could take one now or we could get to the next site inspection well have you got a few more site inspections i have yes so i'd be sensible to finish this one off

01:21:30 off before moving on to the next year all right well finish this one and then i think the order i'll keep it as short as i can

01:21:35 i can um rbk3010782 this looks like uh a message sent to yourself on the 2nd of november it looks like a diary note of some kind

01:21:46 it looks like a diary note of some kind but it says visited site met site manager and harley representative went up on hoist to look at new clouding on eastern and western elevations ninety percent of cladding on main elevations complete

01:21:57 cladding on main elevations complete columns fifty percent complete seen horizontal side arise cavity barriers where panels are to be fixed just after hoist is taken down minor repairs etc subcontractors aware of matter and

01:22:08 subcontractors aware of matter and scheduled to carry out and make good work's progressing steadily no adverse comments to make and then there are some 16 exclamation marks i may have may have may have well can i just get can i just

01:22:20 may have well can i just get can i just ask the question rather than just leaving you to comment at large first of all who was the harley representative that you met that you met on site um

01:22:31 i'll explain uh i'll explain [Music]

01:22:35 [Music] why people weren't named in our notes we we we were instructed some some time some years

01:22:46 some time some years previously that we we weren't to put the names of the people that we actually met

01:22:53 met in our site notes it was something to do with uh data protection issues because originally where where when when when i i started in the district

01:23:05 when when i i started in the district surveillance service i would always put the name of the person and their title what what their their actual involvement whether it be the architect the owner or

01:23:16 whether it be the architect the owner or the building contractor i'm going to cut you off mister i'm sorry because time is getting shortened i just want an answer to the question if you can remember who was the harley representative you could tell us i i i can't

01:23:27 could tell us i i i can't sorry okay you can't um and when you say you went up the hoist to look at new cladding do you know what that inspection entailed can you remember

01:23:38 may have been to look at the actual panels see if panels would be damaged and whether any windows were were

01:23:45 were were damaged uh as i say there would be a

01:23:49 a a section um that would be exposed where where the mass climber was right and that refers to the sidewise cavity

01:24:00 cavity now you you put 16 exclamation marks at the end of the of the message what did that i think you may have

01:24:07 may have you you know when you're you're working on compute sometimes you put your hand

01:24:14 in his oral evidence to the inquiry day thirty page one five three line three mr osgood said that he recalled a discussion with you on site about cavity barriers and

01:24:23 and and said that the conversation contained something to the gist to the effect of how good an install it was was it your view that the standard of the cavity barrier installation was remarkably good no all right it

01:24:36 was remarkably good no all right it would be just um whether it say did you as i say oh i i don't believe i would have said that

01:24:48 i i don't believe i would have said that did you say anything to mr osgood about the quality of the installation not that i recall i as i say i don't actually recall ever from me meeting him whether whether he was

01:25:00 he was there that day as i say my usual point of contact was uh as i say it was jason and and uh and jack at the start

01:25:14 and uh and jack at the start and then when uh when david hughes came on

01:25:19 on he he usually accompanied me right mr chairman is that a convenient point yes i think we'll have a break now all right thank you yes so um mr hayward we'll stop now come back at

01:25:30 mr hayward we'll stop now come back at 20 to 4 please and don't discuss your evidence with anyone thank you thank you very much

01:25:42 [Applause]

01:25:48 twenty to four please

01:40:53 would you ask mr hogan to come back

01:41:02 please

01:41:08 [Music]

01:41:16 oh

01:41:30 thanks steven ready to carry on thank you thank you very much mr millet yes mr chairman um mr hogan i'd like to move forward in time to the 7th of january 2016.

01:41:42 to the 7th of january 2016. yes and i'd like to go to mr hughes's statement please at ryd3094213 at page 13 and i'd like us to look together at paragraph 61.4

01:41:57 he says in 61.4 steve blake and i had a meeting on site with the two senior building control surveyors john hoban and paul hansen fire regulations on 7th of january 2016

01:42:08 regulations on 7th of january 2016 also in attendance was neil crawford the architect from studio e do you recall that meeting

01:42:16 i don't recall it but i i i've seen uh minutes from a meeting he goes on the purpose of the meeting was to discuss what would be required to

01:42:27 was to discuss what would be required to achieve building control completion prior to hand over to the client we initially met in the site office for the first part of the meeting and then walked the relevant parts of the building now mr crawford

01:42:39 parts of the building now mr crawford also

01:42:39 also says that that meeting was also to discuss bc sign off and i just put in the reference that's

01:42:46 that's paragraph 251 of his witness statement sca3014275 page 76. now do you agree that the purpose of that meeting was to discuss what would

01:42:57 that meeting was to discuss what would be required to achieve building control completion um yeah we we talked about uh

01:43:08 further visits uh and we also talked about uh um

01:43:19 so i'd be i

01:43:22 i'd be guessing i as i say it was to talk about about about about sign off uh say the

01:43:33 right there is a minute of the meeting to which mr hughes refers as you can see we're going to go to that in a moment um perhaps it might be quicker to do

01:43:44 um perhaps it might be quicker to do that but before i i do do you remember walking around the relevant parts of the building with steve blake paul hanson and neil crawford um

01:43:55 paul hanson and neil crawford um my memory i as i say

01:44:00 i know there was minutes uh that would confirm that we were paul and i were there

01:44:04 there right like i can't recall it from memory you see if that was the purpose of the meeting that would be it would have been an important meeting and therefore an important meeting to have a note of on accolade

01:44:16 have a note of on accolade yeah yes let's go to the note then it's

01:44:21 tmo10017227 and this is ryden's minutes of the meeting with building building control

01:44:30 it's got no date on it

01:44:37 but uh you are on the distribution list of that

01:44:41 of that meeting can you see distribution all those above and and you are one of those present

01:44:46 present hughes blake hoban hanson and crawford do you remember looking at this or seeing this document at the time do you think

01:44:53 think yeah i think we uh paul and i responded to

01:44:56 to to that in in an email oh and i recall seeing an email uh uh that paul paul mentioned uh yeah he's speaking to

01:45:09 paul mentioned uh yeah he's speaking to me

01:45:09 me you're right and you're right and we'll come to that yeah um but looking at this document take it from me that there's no mention in this document

01:45:17 document of it of the cladding or in all the insulation was that discussed at this site visit or or not

01:45:26 or not do you know i i i said i can only go by the minutes of the meeting at that stage right now can we go to your second witness statement and look at pages nine and ten let's

01:45:38 and look at pages nine and ten let's have both of those up together if we can

01:45:42 and at the bottom of nine you you're asked the question did you ever raise concerns about the compliance of the windows at any stage during the project we looked at this before and over the top of page 10

01:45:54 over the top of page 10 we could see your answer possibly during site visits i would have made physical notes et cetera we saw that before and then you say additionally email from david hughes on 12th of january 2016 at 1620 states that raised the

01:46:07 2016 at 1620 states that raised the issue of fire stopping during a site visit this could relate to the windows but with outside of my notes i cannot be sure

01:46:15 sure that's what you say in your statement listen let's now look at the email it's ryd3063791

01:46:28 and it's an email from david hughes of the 12th of january 2016 as you say and it follows a site visit say it says hi john following your visit to site and

01:46:40 hi john following your visit to site and our discussions your only comment on the minutes was that there was no mention of fire stopping to penetrations through walls and floors please could you confirm that this is correct

01:46:50 correct now the email below it was his email to you and paul hansen as you can see of the 8th of january asking you and paul henson for confirmation that the minutes were accurate do you remember whether you

01:47:01 accurate do you remember whether you discussed

01:47:01 discussed that email 8th of january and the attached minutes with paul hansen when you received them i believe so and the the the the reason for that is that

01:47:12 the the the reason for that is that paul answered that

01:47:18 he does and he does that on the 13th of january you're right and we'll come to that in a moment but let me just take it in in stages um in response to david hughes's 12th of

01:47:29 in response to david hughes's 12th of january email did you have any comment um or rather had you made any comment during the visit about far stopping to penetrations through walls and floors do you remember

01:47:42 uh by by that email yes i see yeah so did you make a comment about that at the meeting which wasn't recorded in the minutes yes i believe so because that was

01:47:53 yes i believe so because that was something that we we

01:47:59 on reflection now uh as i say that was something that wasn't in the minutes that we highlighted hadn't been included in the minutes i i i i i see okay and now the reason

01:48:12 i i i i i see okay and now the reason i'm curious is because david hughes is asking you on the 12th of january to confirm your comment and i was wondering how he got to know about your comment

01:48:21 comment but you say it was an email uh from paul hanson i think you said um yes i i believe paul and i may have may have again

01:48:34 may have again it's my understanding that paul and i looked at the minutes and and and looked at their content and said oh they haven't mentioned

01:48:46 haven't mentioned the fire stopping right let's look at the email we have which is rbk403863 this is an email from paul hansen

01:48:57 this is an email from paul hansen of the 13th of january

01:49:06 there it is to david hughes you see that and it's copied to you you're the last person on the copy list and it's a copy to a cast of thousands

01:49:17 thousands dear dave i have reviewed the minutes and confirmed they are accurate regarding my reference means of escape in addition john hope and rbkc building control did also mention about fire stopping

01:49:25 stopping particularly above door frames now that's the 13th of january um do you accept that these documents the email of the 12th and 13th that i'm

01:49:37 the email of the 12th and 13th that i'm showing you suggest that your comments at the seventh of january meeting weren't made in relation to the windows but only about fire stopping in relation

01:49:48 but only about fire stopping in relation to them yeah yes yes yes so they were concerned with fire stopping through walls floors and above door frames but not not windows now we we then go back a day in time

01:50:03 rbk401122

01:50:08 this is an email from you to john allen dated the 13th of january 2016. so the same day as the email we've just been looking at but here you're referring to site visits

01:50:19 but here you're referring to site visits with cass

01:50:21 with cass cass is the young gentleman you referred to i think was the graduate who had come into assist and the subject here is cass visits with myself 12

01:50:32 myself 12 january 2016 and there you see five sites

01:50:36 sites five sites which were visited and the second of those is grenfell tower where you say checking new external cladding to existing tower block identifying defects controllable under

01:50:47 identifying defects controllable under the building regulations on new panels brief introduction on fire breaks fire cavity barriers including location of where cavity barriers on cladding panels should be provided for this particular project

01:50:58 provided for this particular project um what was the purpose of that email um john allen had asked me or our surveyors to

01:51:10 or our surveyors to say what they were taking caz out for as i say but

01:51:14 i say but he just joined us

01:51:17 in the new year he he was a graduate and he was the first time he'd been introduced to uh building control matters right were

01:51:28 uh building control matters right were these five site visits all on the 12th of january on on on on reflection maybe i'll put the date wrong on that

01:51:39 because uh it may have been an earlier date right i was going to ask you because looking at this it looks as if there was a site visit with kaz on

01:51:50 if there was a site visit with kaz on the 12th of january yeah as well as the visit you'd paid on the 7th of january as we've seen before yeah do you think that's wrong yeah i think it could have been right so because this had been a reference to what had been discussed

01:52:02 reference to what had been discussed at the seventh of january meeting when i went with

01:52:05 went with with kaz as i say i was a two two of us and as i say um mr allen uh uh all the surveys that were left

01:52:16 uh uh all the surveys that were left were taking uh caz out on different days yes do you remember when it was that you visited with kaz uh and checked the things you say here

01:52:29 uh and checked the things you say here you checked it that will be reflected in in the spreadsheets that i mentioned i can't i can't

01:52:37 can't it was early january right so would it have been the 7th of january even though he wasn't on the circulation list

01:52:45 list of the note we saw

01:52:49 i can't be certain all right if that is right then is this a d is this a reliable record of what was

01:52:55 what was checked at the 7th of january meeting by you

01:52:58 you in in in in accompaniment these are the things that i looked on uh with chasm on a particular day and so the the only way we can

01:53:09 way we can check that is uh right against those spreadsheets what qualifications did caz have to undertake inspections it well he he he came as a graduate he

01:53:23 it well he he he came as a graduate he finished a degree in in building surveying i believe uh the june before and he had had some work experience

01:53:35 experience so he was he he got taken on as a building control surveyor but this was the first time he was working as

01:53:46 as as a building control surveyor so i was introducing him to

01:53:56 what what the job was as i say for for example port portobello road

01:54:07 for for example port portobello road is an opening so got the drawing out measured the timber work yes now you say in this that you gave a brief introduction on fire breaks

01:54:19 brief introduction on fire breaks fire cavity barriers including location of where cavity barriers on cloudy panels should be provided for this particular project what is your brief introduction of fire break stroke fire cavity barriers comprise it would be just

01:54:33 comprise it would be just talking about the approved document i see did you and um and where where where they where they should be

01:54:44 where where they where they should be as i say that what did you tell him about where they should be uh in accordance with the with the drawings

01:54:52 drawings i'm not with the drawings with the approved document at this stage january 2016. yeah sorry i'm perhaps i'm not explaining myself correctly

01:55:08 as i say we were going there and i said well this

01:55:11 well this is panels oh these are the power we're looking at we're looking at the finished job and i said well there's a barrier at that at the at the

01:55:23 floor level there's a barrier at the compartment level and there's about a barrier

01:55:30 barrier at the window level did you uh we didn't actually we would have saw perhaps the the physical one on where the climber was but the

01:55:42 the climber was but the rest would have been uh covered up i i see so so how could you teach him as it were about the location of where cavity barriers are on the standing panel should be if

01:55:53 are on the standing panel should be if it was just a briefing a brief introduction as i say he had he had two weeks before he had never been in for all he may have been

01:56:05 been in for all he may have been involved

01:56:06 involved in making applications to the building uh building control he now become a building control officer so he was i was taking him out and saying

01:56:18 saying let's move on to march 2016. can we go to rbk3010780 please this is an email from john allen to

01:56:31 this is an email from john allen to david hughes copy to you on the 24th of march 2016. and he says david thank you for meeting with me today my overall impression uh

01:56:43 my overall impression uh is that you are completing the works to a high standard here are the items that i noted this morning in a more legible format

01:56:49 format one cladding nearly complete two ensure thermal insulation completely fills voids

01:56:54 voids three nursery no markings on fire resisting glazing four fire stopping being carried out to a high standard including in between voids and steel deck etc

01:57:05 deck etc um did you speak to john allen following his visit on the 24th of march 2016.

01:57:14 i i can't recall i most probably would i i think i wasn't available that day i had

01:57:21 had either a hospital appointment for myself or or my mother i wasn't as i say i wasn't

01:57:28 wasn't wasn't available it could have may have been a medical appointment at my doctor's but i i wasn't available and he did the visit for me

01:57:38 for me do you do you have a recollection in general

01:57:43 general of a discussion though about his visit with him even though you i know you weren't there yourself um so i may have as

01:57:54 um so i may have as sad be only only only uh guessing as i say copy copied me in on it did you take any steps to ensure that the matters identified in his email would be followed up by you

01:58:05 would be followed up by you your next visit yes what steps were those well i i visited and then we went through

01:58:10 through through uh i did a more uh i did another list i believe a later stage

01:58:18 stage right i think the next visit we have for you is the 4th of may 2016. and is it right that on that date you attended a demonstration of the smoke control system with paul hanson

01:58:31 um um yes do you remember what your role was of that demonstration it um we went along and we we

01:58:42 um we went along and we we we witnessed the operation of the actual system

01:58:46 system with the the closing and the opening of of the events uh uh the operation of the the the actual air intake because i i

01:58:59 the actual air intake because i i believe that some of the the windows uh didn't open on the ground floor i think we highlighted this singer in a in a note to to the contractor so

01:59:10 in a note to to the contractor so we we were witnessing the operation of of the actual system itself were you content with the new smoke control system as you saw it demonstrated to you at that visit or were there still outstanding

01:59:22 were there still outstanding items that you thought should be fixed well the windows as i mentioned and i mentioned that paul was waiting some for some uh calculation velocity calculations

01:59:35 uh calculation velocity calculations on the system i see can we three the conditioning certificate

01:59:42 i see can we then turn to a meeting on the 12th of may 2016. uh go please to ryd3091475

01:59:53 uh go please to ryd3091475 and i'd like to show you the second email done in that chain

02:00:02 and if you go to that this is an email from david hughes to you on that day 12th of may subject building control findings from today's visit to grenfell tower you see that

02:00:12 that and he says hi john thanks for visiting today to confirm the works that still need to be done and then he sets out a list um those who i think relate to the lower fourth laws don't they yeah

02:00:24 fourth laws don't they yeah now he recalls that his statement mr hughes this is 61.8 of his statement um and he says and i'll i'll rather than take you to it i'll just tell you what

02:00:35 take you to it i'll just tell you what he says he says i requested a visit by john hoban following which he attended site on 12th of may 2016 and walked around the lower four floors i think i showed you that earlier on this afternoon do you recall

02:00:46 this afternoon do you recall making a visit to site on the 12th of may 2016.

02:00:53 i i believe i did did i did i write a an outstanding works letter or a letter of comfort at that stage

02:01:04 well i'm asking you do you recall making the visit

02:01:10 off you know off hand i can't i can't recall but i i believe that i i wrote her

02:01:20 a letter to to to rydens there's no record of this visit on accolade do you know why that is as i as i said

02:01:33 do you know why that is as i as i said before

02:01:34 before it's i i i don't know why that that that noticing isn't there no and yeah i'm told

02:01:45 and yeah i'm told you're correct that you did write a an outstanding works letter yeah to ryden um but that doesn't explain the absence of any note of this meeting on action as i say whether as i say i i didn't put the note

02:01:58 whether as i say i i didn't put the note in and didn't click the the the tick box to save [Music]

02:02:05 [Music] you know right um you know this was the first visit that you had made since the 15th of march

02:02:16 although we've seen the visit made by mr allen yeah um on the 24th of march i think it was do you um do you know why there was such a long break between those visits

02:02:28 a long break between those visits well there wasn't one in april for example

02:02:39 i'm trying what's going on um as i say um

02:02:50 um as i say um it may be that there again we as i say prioritizing my my visits as i explained earlier on there may have again

02:03:02 that there may have been certain things going on as regards my my my my particular visits uh at the time is it fair to assume that

02:03:13 uh at the time is it fair to assume that you made no inspection of the facade on this visit 12th of may 16. uh i think maybe all that work had been complete at that stage right

02:03:26 given that the last visit for which we have any reliable documents or notes is your visit on the 12th of january or perhaps the 7th of january more accurately given what you've told us this afternoon

02:03:37 this afternoon where you did check the external cladding etc can i ask why you didn't use this opportunity this mid-may visit to inspect the defects that you'd identified on the earlier visits that they would

02:03:49 on the earlier visits that they would have been done i did you know otherwise i would have called them up i see did you under undertake any checks to the

02:03:57 the cavity barriers on this visit the mid-may visit um internally yes but i i uh

02:04:08 internally yes but i i uh at this stage i don't know whether there was any any external works for me to look at at this stage

02:04:18 stage you see in january when you went with cass it looks as if you'd specifically instructed that the location of the cavity barriers on canning panels should be provided for this particular project we saw that well

02:04:29 project we saw that well they would they would make good as they went down right but did you check that what you said should be done was done

02:04:38 done i didn't i didn't physically come back and

02:04:41 and check because as i say they would do that as they went down but you wouldn't then and then they'd be covered up with rain screen panels wouldn't they so why didn't you in mid may say i'd like you to take a couple of panels off

02:04:52 like you to take a couple of panels off so i can check absolutely that what i asked to be done in january has been done well it wouldn't be possible because the the the

02:05:00 the the the climber as as they as they take the climate down they make good indeed but you as the building control officer could ask them to uncover

02:05:11 to uncover parts of the work that you hadn't had an opportunity to inspect it at that point couldn't you but there'd be no climber there

02:05:17 there for for us to get up but that has and that presumably was as a result of not undertaking sufficiently frequent inspections

02:05:28 frequent inspections so that you still undertake your inspections while the mass climbing was still in place as i say the mask as as they take the mask climber they put the the panels the panels on

02:05:43 so are you saying it was actually never possible to undertake an inspection of what was underneath a panel once the panel was on no no you are saying that you're not saying that

02:05:55 saying that at the end of the project as i say they were making good and putting the panels on as as they progressed down and i didn't come back i think we're getting across personally

02:06:06 getting across personally would it be right to understand that if you had had uh if you'd wanted to you could have asked them to dismantle panels before they so that you

02:06:18 dismantle panels before they so that you could look behind them before they took the mask climbers down at all no no they they

02:06:26 as i say the mask timer was there they were making good those no no i haven't got to the making good point that's sorry or striking the mass climbers

02:06:34 climbers i'm just wanting your help on this yeah if

02:06:37 if you've been told by ryden against or my heart you're going to start striking the mask climbers in a week or two weeks time could you at that point have gone along and asked them to remove

02:06:49 have gone along and asked them to remove some

02:06:50 some uh individual panels so that you could check behind them well there were still access if

02:06:58 yes yeah but once you once they start taking the mask down they make good as they go yeah and after that there's no access to anything no there's not an opportunity i thought

02:07:09 no there's not an opportunity i thought so

02:07:10 so yeah yeah so my question again is why was it that you couldn't do an inspection while the master climbers were in place before

02:07:20 before the cloud before the rain screen clouding covered up the cavity barriers and the insulation and the rails etc to make sure that what was going in underneath the rain screen climbing conformed with the building regulations

02:07:34 conformed with the building regulations there's a sam ah i can only spend so much time on on a job

02:07:44 job as as i mentioned previously

02:07:49 i'm i'm not there every day you have to i have to make judgments on whether

02:07:55 whether whether i go to this particular job or that

02:07:58 that that particular job uh where where there's problems and and i can see that there are are major issues i didn't see see

02:08:10 major issues i didn't see see that here so i'm i'm making uh judgments on

02:08:17 on what what i consider to be an immediate priority to to deal with at at a given time as i say i i do so many visits a day

02:08:30 as i say i i do so many visits a day i have to do my other works as well so there's only a certain amount of time i can spend doing inspections was there not a time whether in mid may 16 or or an earlier

02:08:41 whether in mid may 16 or or an earlier time

02:08:42 time when on any of these site visits you could you could see from the master climbers that they were about to hang a panel over finished insulation and cavity barriers and say before you do

02:08:54 cavity barriers and say before you do that before you cover it up i just want to check

02:08:57 to check the workmanship and the desi and i did i did do you remember doing that yes you did

02:09:04 did can you remember specifically or even roughly when you did that when when i when i went up on the out on the client the climbers they were working on on those areas right can we then move to june 2016 and

02:09:18 right can we then move to june 2016 and go to rbk3013224 please

02:09:24 now this is a letter from paul hanson to ryden dated the 2nd of june 2016

02:09:34 june 2016 and it reads now it's from me i'm so sorry it's from you

02:09:43 we'll just turn to the second page of that

02:09:47 that it's actually from john allen yeah sorry that's why i asked you it's from john allen not from you it does say on the first page please ask for john hogan as you can see

02:09:59 please ask for john hogan as you can see but it is actually written by john allen and it reads with reference to a recent site inspection of grenfell tower carried out by john hoban with yourself yesterday afternoon etc now just pausing there do you recall

02:10:12 etc now just pausing there do you recall a site inspection of grenfell tower carried out by you with david hughes on the 1st of june 2016.

02:10:21 2016. you don't

02:10:26 can we go to

02:10:32 rbk3052478 please

02:10:41 and go in there to halfway down the page where you can see first of june 2016 and this is your site visit recorded and

02:10:52 and this is your site visit recorded and it says site visit today with site manager

02:10:54 manager outstanding matters listed below also see council's letter dated 2nd of june 2016

02:10:59 2016 which i've just shown you with reference to a recent site inspection of grenfell tower carried out by john hoeven with yourself yesterday afternoon and then what's set up below is essentially a cut and paste

02:11:10 essentially a cut and paste of the letter which paul hansen sorry john allen had written to uh john i wrote that letter you wrote the letter john allen signed it and you were the ask for person it's right isn't it that

02:11:22 ask for person it's right isn't it that this is simply a cup and paste of that letter yes did you actually make any notes during your inspection yes and in order to construct that right so the letter was based on your notes yes and if we look above

02:11:36 yes and if we look above that entry we then can see that there's a uh an entry for the seventh of july 2016. works controllable under the building

02:11:47 works controllable under the building regulations now complete clear job does that tell us that you by then had satisfied yourself that all outstanding works had been completed so far as building i went back i went back

02:12:00 as i said i was dealing with family matters at the time and i was in and out of the office um right so that's not not a complete note but i had been back

02:12:11 not a complete note but i had been back to check these items off when did you go back do you think on that date i believe on the seventh i think as i say

02:12:23 i think as i say i was i was away from the office quite a lot at that time uh as i say i um so

02:12:35 i um so there was days where i was coming in and going

02:12:38 going going early or there was days when i was off

02:12:43 off in order to deal with family matters but just to

02:12:46 just to give this a final pinpoint on the documents can you go to rbk402993 please

02:12:59 this is an email which shows an appointment that was booked for you to attend

02:13:03 attend uh at the building on the 30th of june 2016.

02:13:07 2016. do you see that yeah i put a visit in the diary for john hogan on the 30th of june

02:13:14 and then if you go to rbk403032 sorry three zeros three sorry four zeros three zero two three i'm so sorry

02:13:24 sorry it's rbk four zeros three zero two three we can see that david hughes sends an email

02:13:32 email dated the 27th of june 2016 to you and to others hi john i've just spoken to someone in your office and booked a time slot at 11 am to 1 pm for the final walk around at grenfell tower

02:13:44 walk around at grenfell tower i've got the keys to the boxing club so we can check the items on the list from the letter of comfort and the letter of comfort was that the letter written by john allen we saw which you drafted yes second of

02:13:56 we saw which you drafted yes second of june letter yes yes does does the final walk around uh does that final walk around accord with your recollection of the purpose of that visit

02:14:07 that visit i think there was there was still some outstanding my minor matters but i believe i went back

02:14:15 back on the seventh of of june to to to do the fight the final final inspection because as i say uh

02:14:27 final inspection because as i say uh there was still outstanding uh there was items that hadn't been cleared off from that and what did you inspect on that

02:14:33 on that final occasion do you remember um i think it uh can we can can we go back to the letter of comfort if i may yeah yes of course that is that rbk30 is one three two three

02:14:44 one three two three four

02:14:49 i think it could have been to do with the floor surface uh two is that item four yeah

02:14:57 that's in the entrance door to the community room yeah on the main in the main entrance lobby yeah i think they had to uh they had to get some surface

02:15:09 uh they had to get some surface to fix that there's nothing in that dot in that comfort letter about the exterior cladding is there no right can we then turn to a different topic altogether which is regulation 38.

02:15:22 topic altogether which is regulation 38. um at the time of your involvement in the grenfell tower project mr hoban were you aware of regulation 38 of the building regulations yes um were you aware that the person

02:15:33 um were you aware that the person carrying out the work was required to give fire safety information to the capital r responsible capital p person

02:15:41 person as defined under the regulatory reform fire safety order 2005. you were and they were required to do that not later than the date of the completion of the work you recall that as an obligation

02:15:54 you recall that as an obligation uh in in in detail when regulation 38 came in we had uh well there was a number of uh

02:16:05 uh well there was a number of uh amendments and uh we were given uh uh an in-house talk by john jackson i believe it came in

02:16:16 in uh some years previously in 2005. so 2000 yes well well that was the date of the of the regulatory reform water

02:16:27 regulatory reform water that perhaps it's similar to the no no the regulation reform came in but uh regulation 38 came in at a later stage did it or not well i just want to understand whether

02:16:39 well i just want to understand whether you

02:16:39 you at the time of the project when it was certainly in force yes yes yes yes okay um now um let's have a look at the regulation it's bmer

02:16:51 bmer six zeros four

02:17:04 at page 24 and this is actually part of ms menzie's report to the inquiry and she sets out on page 24 the

02:17:16 and she sets out on page 24 the regulation and i want to look at regulation 38.2 this is just for convenience and it says that the person carrying out the work shall give fire safety information to the responsible person not later than

02:17:27 to the responsible person not later than the date of completion of the work or the date of occupation of the building or extension whichever is the earlier and then there's a definition under subsection 3a of fire safety information and it's

02:17:38 of fire safety information and it's information relating to the design and construction of the building or extension

02:17:41 extension and the services fittings and equipment provided in or in connection with the building or extension which will assist the responsible person to operate and maintain the building or extension with reasonable safety and do you agree that this requirement

02:17:53 and do you agree that this requirement did you understand at the time that this requirement applied to grenfell tower yes did you understand that under regulation 17 of the building regulations which we can go to if you

02:18:04 regulations which we can go to if you need it

02:18:05 need it the local authority should not issue a completion certificate until it is satisfied that among other things regulation 38 has been complied with

02:18:15 with when we were given uh the talk about uh about

02:18:19 about about this particular regulation um we i are on i know i asked the question if we needed all that information to be sent to us

02:18:32 all that information to be sent to us and

02:18:33 and i was told and i it was common practice in the office that that we we didn't need all that information in

02:18:44 didn't need all that information in order to

02:18:45 order to sign the job off and that was the practice in the office right how would you as a building control officer working at rbkc satisfy yourself that

02:18:58 working at rbkc satisfy yourself that regulation 38 had been complied with before issuing a completion certificate on any project by art asking if they had done it by asking

02:19:08 asking who the contractor if they provided that information to the the response oh to the building owner

02:19:16 owner i see so does that tell us that although you would ask them whether they'd done it you didn't want to see what it was that they had done that's what we were we're told okay in respect of grenfell

02:19:30 okay in respect of grenfell did you take any steps to satisfy yourself that regulation 38 had been complied with i believe i asked uh

02:19:37 uh david hughes if he had sent the information information we got certain certificates in that

02:19:44 in that and i say and as far as i can recall that he said that he would he was sending

02:19:51 sending the information to tmo right let's see if we can be as precise as we can doing the best you can with your recollection you say you think you asked or believe me believe it or not do you remember when you asked him

02:20:03 remember when you asked him at the towards the end of the project right

02:20:07 right and this this was just a conversation was it was there an email or a letter or something no that was right because we talked about information that he he needed to send to me

02:20:18 he he needed to send to me certain certificates right did you record the assurance he'd given you

02:20:25 you anywhere in writing on your files i didn't

02:20:29 didn't why is that i just didn't given that this was a regulatory matter and placed a statutory obligation on i believe that was the practice in the office

02:20:38 office if you go through uh

02:20:42 our records that's the way it was done in the office so you're saying that the practice in the office was simply is this right to get an assurance from the contractor that they had provided the responsible

02:20:53 that they had provided the responsible person with the relevant information for compliance with regulation 38 and then you didn't record that if you go through uh council's records i believe that's what you will find

02:21:04 believe that's what you will find right completion certificate this is my last but one topic and they're very short topics you were i think were responsible for arranging the completion certificate for

02:21:15 arranging the completion certificate for grenfell tower correct and could we look at rbk three zeros one eight eight one one

02:21:24 this is the completion certificate itself

02:21:28 itself and we can see that it's got an electronic signature of john allen there yeah did you need his agreement before you issued the completion certificate no no did you did you apply his

02:21:40 no no did you did you apply his electronic signature or did he do you think uh

02:21:42 think uh that that was on the system it was standard

02:21:46 standard all all the letters were automatically had his signature oh i see so i see so what did you fill

02:21:57 oh i see so i see so what did you fill in then

02:21:58 in then i just printed it printed it out yeah but i'm sorry he said it's a standard form i just want to try to get a feel for what is

02:22:09 would process that maybe i i might have uh if

02:22:15 uh if if you put in certain information into accolade

02:22:19 accolade it it gets it gets that information out automatically it's it's into the actual

02:22:27 actual uh computer system itself i think so if you want a completion certificate you just press a button on the accolade system out it pops with john allen's signature on it and all the details filled in yes i i follow

02:22:41 do you accept that given you hadn't satisfied yourself that regulation 38 had been complied with but have just had an assurance from david hughes that that was the case as you say

02:22:52 you say you shouldn't have issued a completion certificate on that basis alone that was the way it was done in the office i i followed that's what you're saying to us but do you accept that as a matter of the regulation you

02:23:03 that as a matter of the regulation you shouldn't have done it as i say that that that's how we were told to deal with it at the time

02:23:11 do you also accept that you shouldn't have issued or procured the issue of a completion certificate because the refurbishment didn't comply in particular with um requirement b4 of the building

02:23:22 um requirement b4 of the building regulations as far as i concerned it to comply with b4

02:23:28 b4 i wouldn't i wouldn't issue a certificate

02:23:35 [Music] if i knew it didn't comply but now we know that the exterior of the building cannot reply yes you accept now that oh yeah i accept

02:23:46 yes you accept now that oh yeah i accept that now

02:23:46 that now at the time when i issued that

02:23:51 yeah i issued that with the understanding that it did comply final topic for you at least at this stage

02:23:59 stage and that's the weeding of the paper file as i understand it at rbkc is this right that once a project was complete there was a practice of weeding the paper file correct and and the file would be weeded

02:24:12 correct and and the file would be weeded by is this right the survey with responsibility for the fire or by somebody else and sometimes uh mainly the surveyor doing the job it was it was weeded

02:24:23 doing the job it was it was weeded sometimes by other people or managers if if people had left what um what documents or information

02:24:34 what um what documents or information would be

02:24:35 would be retained on the file after the weeding

02:24:40 process there would be uh the structural drawings uh plan plans sections

02:24:53 plan plans sections uh and innovation showing the constructional details

02:25:02 certificates if they've been printed out

02:25:12 that would generally be be it so we wouldn't keep uh we wouldn't keep our design calculations uh the same because in a job like this

02:25:26 the same because in a job like this uh you know they it could be hundreds hundreds of pages

02:25:35 as the building control surveyor responsible for the grenfell tower project

02:25:40 project would it have been you who weeded the grenfell tower i believe some project file after the completion can you remember what it was in general that you discarded and what it was that

02:25:52 that you discarded and what it was that you retained um i can't did you consult paul hanson about which documents relating to b1 and b5 should be retained

02:26:03 be retained no he he would have his own his own own records

02:26:07 records on on that right we would keep sorry we would keep the consultation documents so i had you know because we had uh consulted with the brigade

02:26:18 with the brigade on two occasions and we had letters uh back from them those would stay on the file was there any process by which your weeding would be supervised by your line manager

02:26:29 would be supervised by your line manager so that

02:26:30 so that you would have some sort of management input into what it was originally pardon me

02:26:38 originally some some years ago we would we would have to go to our managers pardon me with with the weeded file in

02:26:49 pardon me with with the weeded file in order that they could unlock uh accolade in order to uh in order to process this certificate but a decision was made that

02:27:02 certificate but a decision was made that that that was no longer necessary right um but but after that decision was made you say some some years ago when was that it's just so i get a feel

02:27:13 that it's just so i get a feel for that uh i i can't remember john john jackson was was the manager then right so long so long before the grenfell tower project yes i see okay uh what what happened

02:27:25 i see okay uh what what happened many many years ago uh um because

02:27:35 the managers decided that they they wanted files weeded in in order to process them onto the council system

02:27:46 process them onto the council system so um and we we actually at one stage we we were

02:27:55 tasked to to do uh weeding maybe an hour or some period and then say that certain managers weeded

02:28:06 say that certain managers weeded weeded the files in order that that they could be transposed onto onto microfiche or or

02:28:18 onto microfiche or or onto a computer record so it was something that the managers due to us moving we didn't have uh uh

02:28:30 due to us moving we didn't have uh uh archive archive storage in in the in the council's offices anymore just just a short point is it right that no line manager you had on this

02:28:42 that no line manager you had on this project check what you did and didn't read on the on the grenfell file right is it possible that you weeded the whole file so that nothing was left

02:28:52 can i just show you a document rbk3052479

02:29:03 this is an email from john allen to jago williams within rbkc on the 15th of june 2017. this is the the day after the fire

02:29:16 and he says morning jaguar i've been unable to find the electronic or paper file for grenfell and in the fourth line though he says it may be that john weeded everything and nothing remains

02:29:28 nothing remains was that realistic that you could have weeded the entire file so that there's nothing left of it no do you agree that weeding a file to the point where it's not possible to

02:29:39 the point where it's not possible to tell whether um what has and what doesn't have building control approval could make it more difficult to enforce yes as i say it was it was a decision made

02:29:50 made by by managers that the files would be weeded

02:29:53 weeded yes it's not it's not something uh i i agree agree with but we were instructed to do that yes as i say i don't think it's

02:30:05 yes as i say i don't think it's uh uh a good prayer it's not you know well it shouldn't be the case you should keep all information in my view but yeah

02:30:17 all information in my view but yeah the cat all the managers decided this is what they wanted done yes thank you mr chairman i've got two short

02:30:26 short questions which if i don't ask now to ask after a natural break anyway you're good you want a break aren't you well we are going to want to break i'd rather ask these questions now so that those outside this room know

02:30:38 now so that those outside this room know that they have been asked rather than asking us to ask them again yes which will just take up time if i'm if i may yes sir thank you um first can i just um remind you of what you said in your evidence yesterday

02:30:49 what you said in your evidence yesterday where you said um at day 45 page 29 lines three to seven that you attended a training course presented by celetex which you thought was in 2005. that's

02:31:00 which you thought was in 2005. that's what you said can we go please to rbk3050786

02:31:18 now this is your application for membership of the abe yeah and it's signed by you at the bottom i think on the 1st of november 2012.

02:31:30 think on the 1st of november 2012. yes and you can see that and you've put in two referees there yes um

02:31:39 the reason i want to show you this is it attaches a training log yes and we can see that starts on page i think it's 10 of this document can we can we go to that

02:31:54 and you can see it starts there and there it is is this a an rbkc document or is it one that you put together yourself for the purposes of this application do you think

02:32:08 it we had a log originally uh uh as i say and uh as i say it was something that was set out out and i would i would

02:32:21 out and i would i would uh put in uh fill in uh where uh the gaps or the dates like when

02:32:35 when i attend attended visits are attended courses but uh as you as you scroll down if we may

02:32:52 as you as you scroll down if we may yes can we scroll down yeah

02:32:57 ah celetex 2005. oh yes so well i just know oh sorry no 2002.

02:33:04 2002. no that's that's that's right 22nd of may 2002.

02:33:08 may 2002. before i get to that i just wanted to ask you whether this was your document or an rbkc document this is a document that i had on my computer at the time so but you compiled it yourself did you rather than it being a formal rbkc yes it's

02:33:21 it being a formal rbkc yes it's something that i had on on my my desktop for once a better world

02:33:27 world now going to the first page in the top right hand corner it says update november 2012. so does that mean that this was a complete record of all the training that you'd done up to that date no

02:33:40 that date no would it include rbc rbkc internal training within the building control department no it wouldn't no so what did it not include and if it wasn't in

02:33:51 not include and if it wasn't in house uh where we had uh uh tutorials or or

02:34:00 in-house uh okay uh um sorry um discussions about about about the new regulations now if we go

02:34:12 about the new regulations now if we go to

02:34:13 to the page 11 we we can see what you pointed out which was a celetex seminar on the 22nd of may 2002 yes um was that arranged for you by rbkc or

02:34:24 or is that something you attended yourself of your own band no it would would have been a lunchtime that was lunchtime seminars that i would have from time to time that was the one you were referring to yesterday was yes so we can now date that

02:34:35 so we can now date that 2002. and if we get back to the bottom of page 11 or go to the bottom of page 11

02:34:40 11 it stops because this is the end of the document on the 7th of november 2005. does that tell us that you did no training even in-house training between the 7th of november 2005. no that's

02:34:52 the 7th of november 2005. no that's november 2012. so why does this document run out of steam on the 7th of november 2005. i i didn't have i i just completed the

02:35:03 i i didn't have i i just completed the the the i'd filled in every every page that i could on it

02:35:11 um on on what was on my desktop oh i see did you have a continuation sheet out held elsewhere no no i um i wouldn't be able to

02:35:22 no i um i wouldn't be able to to uh do spreadsheets

02:35:29 right going to a different topic um we've seen some many but not all of your inspections between august 2014 and july 2016. were you of the view over

02:35:40 july 2016. were you of the view over that period that the number and the frequency of site visits that you were in fact carrying out was appropriate or did you think that you could and should have done more but were just unable to do so my my day was full i was as i say doing

02:35:54 my my day was full i was as i say doing um i was doing as many site visits as i could at that at that particular time in relation to my workload

02:36:05 in relation to my workload yes it doesn't quite answer my question though my question really is even though you were as you explained to us doing as much as you could for reasons you've given us did you think that um you could and

02:36:17 did you think that um you could and should have done more but were simply unable to do so because of the pressure of work and the other pressures on you yes

02:36:22 yes and what would you would you what would you have wanted to do

02:36:28 as i say i would like to have just one area

02:36:31 area and and you know focus on on that area and and the work that i had in that that particular area right

02:36:42 particular area right um now finally before the break uh mr chairman if that's all right uh one document i need to show you i i think i should i showed you this morning uh a an labc certificate for rs 5000

02:36:55 uh a an labc certificate for rs 5000 um which um we've we have on their site can i just show you a different version

02:37:05 i'm told i don't need to ask that question i'm not quite sure why but i'm sure there's a good reason always listen to your journey maybe maybe it may be necessary to get back to that after the break um if um if it's appropriate but mr

02:37:17 um if um if it's appropriate but mr chairman

02:37:18 chairman mr hogan i've come to the end of my prepared questions and indeed some of my unprepared questions um it's normal that we take a break now mr chairman should we do that i think we should mr holland i'm very conscious

02:37:30 should mr holland i'm very conscious that the afternoon's gone on longer than perhaps most of us would have wished but it was important to let council finish asking his questions and at this stage i think he needs a minute

02:37:41 at this stage i think he needs a minute or two just to check that everything has been covered and sometimes we have questions sent in by people who are not in the room but are watching remotely so we'll have a break now um i'm going to

02:37:53 we'll have a break now um i'm going to say until 10 to 5. i know it seems a little while but it does take time to organize these things so um would you like to go with the usher

02:38:04 the usher and um not talk to anyone of course while you're out of the room about your evidence or anything to do with it and at ten to five we'll see if there any more questions thank you very much

02:38:22 i think i should give you enough time mr miller i think i should thank you mr president please okay

02:51:38 would you ask mr hogan to come back in

02:51:44 please

02:51:50 [Applause] all right mr tobin now we'll see if mr millett's found any more questions for you

02:52:07 yes mr bennett yes mr chairman we've had a number of questions coming in from court participants but on careful reflection we feel we've covered them all

02:52:15 all or sufficiently for our purposes which mr haven takes me to a final question

02:52:22 question which we do ask people from time to time who have particular responsibility for spheres of activity and it's this we've been through two days of evidence now we've looked at a lot of material

02:52:33 we've looked at a lot of material and you've said a lot of things about it and we're extremely grateful to you looking back on all of that material and looking and looking back on your involvement in the project as a whole is there anything that you'd like to tell us

02:52:44 anything that you'd like to tell us that you think you should have done or would have done differently um yes i i wish i was able to have

02:52:54 been given more more more time to deal deal with the particular uh project uh um i wish i'd been more formal in in in letter writing with

02:53:08 in in in letter writing with uh were

02:53:11 uh were when requesting information

02:53:18 i also wish that around the events of of june in 2016 i had taken more time away

02:53:31 i had taken more time away in order that i could have been able to be more focused at that particular time with with my my day-to-day things

02:53:45 yes well mr hogan thank you very much indeed

02:53:49 indeed do you want to add something else uh yeah well the most hoping when you uh came in at the beginning of your evidence i said that you would be given

02:53:57 given the chance to say what i think you want to say to the people who've been affected by the tragedy so would you like to take that opportunity now yeah

02:54:07 now yeah i'd like to add a a a few other things if i may

02:54:11 if i may i in my considered opinion that the the building regulations at that particular time particularly the approved documents were

02:54:23 particularly the approved documents were um and big ambiguous and confusing and we can see that we with particular reference

02:54:30 reference to approve document b in in the new volume that has come out because it's it's a lot more clearer

02:54:50 it's a lot more clearer now and uh clear clearer now the the the other thing or observation

02:55:01 the other thing or observation i'd like to make is that in the period from 2013 to 2017 when i

02:55:12 to 2017 when i when i left kensington

02:55:19 the building control department

02:55:24 they lost 10 surveyors who had

02:55:35 you know 200 230 years experience and they there was one replacement who was a graduate and i don't believe that's the correct

02:55:46 and i don't believe that's the correct way

02:55:47 way to to run a department that's my own personal view

02:55:57 the other thing i'd like to say is that um if we had a regulatory body like we had with the greater london council

02:56:07 council and and the regulations and building acts

02:56:11 acts and and constructional bylaws that we had at that particular time and and the support network of the the experts that that

02:56:22 the experts that that that administered the regulations at that time

02:56:25 that time i don't think we'd be in a position where we are now you know

02:56:33 sitting here talking about people that lost their lives

02:56:43 and also all these buildings with reflectable cladding and and the stress and the uncertainty that that leaves with

02:56:54 the uncertainty that that leaves with the people living in those buildings now you know as i said you've got hundreds of

02:57:01 of hundreds of hundreds of buildings with materials

02:57:06 materials that that

02:57:09 that that that could cause a fire at any time and it's still up there

02:57:14 that's what i like to say about that

02:57:21 i'd like to have a moment if i may just to compose myself because i

02:57:29 i want i talk to people on the people that were directly affected by the tragic events that happened on on

02:57:41 by the tragic events that happened on on the 14th of june three three years ago will you take your time yeah

02:57:47 time yeah thank you

02:58:10 sorry i i am truly heartbroken about what what happened that night particularly for those who

02:58:21 that night particularly for those who lost their lives you know the children the brothers and sisters

02:58:27 sisters sons and daughters fathers mothers grandfathers and grandmothers that lost their life

02:58:39 and i also i've never forgotten the people

02:58:43 people that that night got out with their lives their lives has changed so dramatically since then and likewise the people that lost or the

02:58:54 and likewise the people that lost or the families that lost loved ones that night you know their lives will never be the same you know i i just want to say i'm truly heartbroken

02:59:07 want to say i'm truly heartbroken but thank you well thank you very much mr hoven can i just thank you on behalf of all of us for coming here

02:59:18 on behalf of all of us for coming here to give your evidence it's taken longer than i think we expected and it's probably been a very difficult experience for you yeah we are truly grateful to you for coming along and it's been very valuable

02:59:29 coming along and it's been very valuable to hear what you've been able to tell us so thank you very much indeed thank you thank you

02:59:35 thank you and now you're free to go

02:59:40 thank you thank you very much

02:59:54 well mr millet that is that for today i think

02:59:57 think yes mr chairman it is and i think that is that for the week and we will start again on monday morning with the next witness who i believe is mr john allen good thank you very much well

03:00:08 thank you very much well that's it for today and for this week we'll resume at 10 o'clock on monday thank you all very much

03:00:28 you