Councillor Rock Feilding-Mellen, former Deputy Leader and Cabinet Member for Housing, gives evidence about oversight of the TMO, reliance on officer reports, and his responsibility for the Grenfell Tower project. Admits lack of professional housing qualifications.
00:00:27 would you ask Mr. Fielding Melon to come back in please?
00:00:34 All
00:00:41 right, Mr. Fielding Melon, ready to carry on?
00:00:43 carry on? Yeah, good. Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Fielding Melon. It's right to think that in May 2013, you were appointed as the deputy leader of the council.
00:00:55 deputy leader of the council. Yes.
00:00:55 Yes. And as cabinet member for housing, property, and regeneration. Yes. Correct. Um, what was your understanding of the reasons why you were appointed to that role?
00:01:09 Well, the leader, the new leader of the council, Nicholas Patrick Brown, um, obviously thought that I could do those uh those jobs well. Yes, clearly he did. And what was your
00:01:20 Yes, clearly he did. And what was your perception of why he did? Do you know? Well, I the in the leadership election for the council, I had been one of the counselors who stood for the leadership
00:01:33 counselors who stood for the leadership amongst uh the conservative group. And um during that process uh Nick and I realized that we shared many uh
00:01:45 realized that we shared many uh objectives and priorities and um he decided to make me the deputy leader. Right. Now you were aged 34 at that
00:01:56 Right. Now you were aged 34 at that point I think. That's correct. Yes. Your birth you were your birthday falls in April. That's correct. Of each year doesn't it? And you were born in 1979. Yes. Was that quite a young age for such
00:02:08 Yes. Was that quite a young age for such a post compared with past holders? Do you know?
00:02:12 you know? Within Kensington and Chelsea it was quite young. Um it had a tradition of uh expecting well there were many many councils in Kenzie and Chelsea who had
00:02:24 councils in Kenzie and Chelsea who had been on the council for decades. within other councils across London and I suspect across the country there it was much more usual for um younger
00:02:37 much more usual for um younger counselors with um well by that stage I'd had seven years on the council and two years on the cabinet. So it wasn't unusual by other council standards by Kensington and Chelsea's own standards
00:02:49 Kensington and Chelsea's own standards it was quite unusual. Um now from what you've just said and from Mr. Padet Brown's reasons as so far as you perceived them. I I I suspect there wasn't an open competition for the
00:03:01 there wasn't an open competition for the role.
00:03:04 Sorry. For the role of Was there an open competition uh for the role of deputy leader of the council? No, the the leader appoints all members of the cabinet in Kensington and Chelsea.
00:03:15 Chelsea. Yes. And what special skills did you think at the time that you brought to the role of cabinet member for housing, property and regeneration?
00:03:27 I would not say that I had relevant professional uh skills particularly. I had interest and experience and political experience
00:03:41 and experience and political experience um which
00:03:44 um which I thought was relevant and Nicholas Patrick Brown thought was relevant and sufficient for me to do that role. I see.
00:03:54 So you were given the role not because of any professional experience but because of your political alignment aspirations as is generally the case within I think
00:04:05 as is generally the case within I think within politics that it's it's my understanding of politics and I don't profess to be a great expert but in our democracy elected politicians are often
00:04:17 democracy elected politicians are often given uh jobs whether in local government or national government which they don't necessarily have the professional qualifications to do but they have the interest and the
00:04:28 they have the interest and the dedication to try and pursue those political objectives. Yes. Can we go to RBK 3035007?
00:04:42 Now this is uh part uh three of RBKC's constitution uh which provides the responsibility for functions as you can see uh and it says
00:04:55 functions as you can see uh and it says at the top uh executive functions the leader of the council is Nicholas Padet Brown details of those members he's appointed to his cabinet are published on the council website and are available also by calling governance services on
00:05:08 also by calling governance services on and then there's a telephone number uh Uh and then underneath that you can see there's responsibility for functions cabinet. Uh and if you go to page five
00:05:20 cabinet. Uh and if you go to page five in this document um you could see that there is the post of deputy leader and cabinet member for housing property and regeneration. Was it customary for those two roles to be
00:05:31 it customary for those two roles to be tied?
00:05:34 tied? Do you mean the role of deputy leader and cabinet member for housing? Uh not necessarily. No, no. Was was it was this the first uh well was this specially drafted into the
00:05:45 well was this specially drafted into the constitution when Nicholas Padet Brown became leader? It from from my recollection it was normal for the deputy leader to have another cabinet portfolio.
00:05:57 another cabinet portfolio. Yes. Um the the previous uh deputy leader had indeed been I think Nicholas Padet Brown under councelor Kacel and he
00:06:08 Padet Brown under councelor Kacel and he was cabinet member for um I think it was environment and transport and before that it had been Daniel Moyland who had been deputy leader and cabinet member for planning. So it was quite common for
00:06:20 for planning. So it was quite common for the deputy leader to have another cabinet role and when I was made deputy leader and also cabinet member for housing property and regeneration that was at Nicholas Padet Brown's decision.
00:06:31 was at Nicholas Padet Brown's decision. I see. Does it did it work this way that Nicholas Padet Brown essentially chose you as his deputy leader but because of your experience thus far in housing property and regeneration he also made
00:06:42 property and regeneration he also made you cabinet member with that portfolio? Yes. I would say it was more because he and I both shared uh an ambition to
00:06:54 and I both shared uh an ambition to increase the quantity and quality of affordable housing in the burough which is why he made me cabinet member for housing property and regeneration. Sorry. Sorry. The answer to my question well my question was did it work this
00:07:07 well my question was did it work this way? He picked you as deputy leader but because of your position or experience or alignment doesn't matter which in relation to housing property and regeneration that was the cabinet portfolio you got as cabinet member.
00:07:20 portfolio you got as cabinet member. Ye yes
00:07:22 Ye yes yes thank you. Um if we look on in the list underneath the italics which defines the portfolio and it's identified as a single
00:07:34 and it's identified as a single portfolio as you will notice it says in relation to housing matters uh under under article 1.8 if you go down to Roman one all social housing
00:07:45 Roman one all social housing regeneration projects. Yes. And then at Roman 8,
00:07:51 Roman 8, uh, the tenant management organization, management agreement and regulation. Did that mean or did those items there mean that you were responsible for oversight of the Grrenfell Tower project
00:08:03 of the Grrenfell Tower project that fell within your portfolio? It fell within my portfolio as a cabinet member. Yes. Yes. And did does that mean or did that also mean that fire safety within the
00:08:14 also mean that fire safety within the TMO stock more generally fell within your portfolio? Yes.
00:08:20 Yes. And specifically fire safety in relation to or under the TMO management agreement, the MMA and its regulation.
00:08:32 agreement, the MMA and its regulation. Yes.
00:08:32 Yes. Yes. Now, as part of your role as cabinet member, is it right that you attended a number of what they called or what you might have called policy board meetings?
00:08:42 meetings? Yes.
00:08:43 Yes. Was fire safety ever discussed at policy board meetings? Do you recall? Yes.
00:08:50 Yes. Now, you say in your first witness statement, I don't think we need to go to it. It's page seven, paragraph 30, that you relied on the reports of housing officers, and you mentioned this morning Laura Johnson. Was she primarily
00:09:01 morning Laura Johnson. Was she primarily the person you relied on in relation to reports from housing officers? She was I would say yes. She was the primary officer. There were other officers who attended um housing policy
00:09:14 officers who attended um housing policy boards um many of whom also uh you know advised and updated me on HA and TMO related matters. But my
00:09:27 HA and TMO related matters. But my primary point of contact and primary source of advice was the director of housing, Laura Johnson. I see. And did she report? You say your she was your primary source of advice
00:09:40 she was your primary source of advice and your primary point of contact. Uh did she report to you simply onetoone or did she report through a committee or through a board of some kind?
00:09:51 through a board of some kind? Well, I mean, I think actually in terms of
00:09:55 of her her line manager was the chief executive, but in terms of the political pausing there. That's Nicholas Holgate. Nicholas. Yes. Um, so in terms of, you know, line management, she didn't report to me, but
00:10:07 management, she didn't report to me, but I was the politician with the relevant portfolio who she uh reported to. Um, now I see. I let me ask you some
00:10:18 Um, now I see. I let me ask you some more questions then about the role of cabinet. Now we know I think and correct me if I'm wrong Mr. Fielding Melon but there are two routes by which decisions could be made. Is this right? There's the key decision process and then
00:10:29 the key decision process and then there's cabinet. That's correct. Right. Um and which decisions had to be made by cabinet and which decisions uh could go through the key decision process?
00:10:38 process? um you would need to I relied on the governance department within the council to make sure that was done uh correctly.
00:10:49 to make sure that was done uh correctly. From memory there were thresholds in terms of the the value i.e the monetary value of any decision that could be taken uh through a key decision and if
00:11:00 taken uh through a key decision and if it was over a certain amount it would have to go to cabinet. And then there was also an element of judgment on the part of the relevant cabinet member or the leader whereby issues that were
00:11:13 the leader whereby issues that were considered particularly um important or potentially contentious would be taken through cabinet even if uh from a financial qualification they were under
00:11:25 financial qualification they were under the threshold. And who would be the decision makers when making a key decision? If it was a key decision, it would be the relevant cabinet member. I see. Solely, unilaterally.
00:11:37 I see. Solely, unilaterally. Yes.
00:11:37 Yes. I see.
00:11:38 I see. So you let me be clear about a cabinet member could make a decision, but if it was over a certain monetary amount or was as you call it particularly uh contentious perhaps or or politically
00:11:51 contentious perhaps or or politically important, then it would go to full cabinet.
00:11:53 cabinet. Yes. Yes, I see that you and just I'd like to be clear, you should there was a you know a set out written uh kind of framework for how to delegate decisions from cabinet
00:12:05 how to delegate decisions from cabinet to key decisions. So I don't want to claim that I'm giving you the definitive uh breakdown. Very good. Now, is it right that the cabinet
00:12:15 cabinet uh the cabinet member were making key decisions or the cabinet itself would rely on reports by the housing officers such as Laura Johnson? If it was to do with housing,
00:12:26 If it was to do with housing, it was to do with housing clearly. Yes.
00:12:28 Yes. Uh and do you remember whether fire safety in RBKC housing either TMO stock or or more generally was ever raised at the cabinet? for our safety.
00:12:43 Um
00:12:46 I am I I can't think of a particular decision which revolved around fire safety that so I I can't I
00:12:57 around fire safety that so I I can't I can't recall a particular instance where that was
00:13:02 that was a a subject of a decision by cabinet. Right. In your role as deputy leader and cabinet member for housing, property and regeneration, did you ever have or did you customary have uh direct dealings
00:13:13 you customary have uh direct dealings with officers of the TMO
00:13:18 by they would come to my housing policy boards from time to time, right? But I see. So, uh it would be ad hoc attendance at the policy board.
00:13:31 at the policy board. Yes. And as I've said in my uh witness statement, there were also occasions where I would engage in email communication about particular matters. Yeah, indeed. And we'll come to those
00:13:43 Yeah, indeed. And we'll come to those perhaps later on. But I I in relation to any uh general line of communication with the TMO was through policy board, was it?
00:13:55 through policy board, was it? Yes. And then also sometimes through the housing and property scrutiny committee which they would attend. Yes. But you weren't on that. I attended it. Yes. Okay. But you would Okay. So you would communicate perhaps, is this right? Informally as an observer or
00:14:08 right? Informally as an observer or attendee at HPSC meetings and perhaps more formally or more directly through policy board meetings. Yes. I wouldn't necessarily say it was in at a housing and property scrutiny
00:14:20 in at a housing and property scrutiny committee. If there was an issue being discussed, I would feel free. And I think there are minutes of those meetings which show that I I raised either questions or tried answering
00:14:32 either questions or tried answering questions or would pose challenges. Can we go back to RBK 3035007 please? This is another part of the RBKC
00:14:44 please? This is another part of the RBKC constitution.
00:14:50 Now can we go to page two?
00:14:54 uh which uh is still within part three. And let's look at article 1.6 at the foot of the screen under the heading responsibilities of all cabinet members. And it says under
00:15:06 all cabinet members. And it says under 1.6 each cabinet member is responsible for the proper one the proper administration of the council's services. You see that? Yes.
00:15:15 Yes. Uh have you ever studied this part of the constitution before? I have read this part before. Yes. and and do you agree that your responsibility as a as a cabinet member extends or extend did to ensuring that
00:15:27 extends or extend did to ensuring that the housing department was properly administered?
00:15:33 Ye yes I think in a qualified sense which is
00:15:39 which is my I I I viewed myself as being responsible for seeking reassurance that the professional full-time employees were um
00:15:52 were um administering the services well. And how would you do that? by um asking questions, challenging answers, and specifically asking for
00:16:04 answers, and specifically asking for reassurances by attendance at HPSC meetings and through the policy board and by emails to Laura Johnson or relevant housing officers.
00:16:15 relevant housing officers. Do you agree that it was your and also at cabinet meetings? Sorry.
00:16:18 Sorry. And al so yes, also at cabinet meetings. You didn't list cabinet meetings. Yes, I see. Do do you agree that it was your responsibility to ensure that there were that there was adequate staffing
00:16:30 were that there was adequate staffing premises and other resources to secure agreed standards and target outcomes in the housing department? I didn't not understand my responsibility to be the line management
00:16:43 responsibility to be the line management of housing officers rather I would through the director of housing. My understanding of how it worked was that the chief executive was I think what
00:16:55 the chief executive was I think what they called the section 151 officer who was responsible for all the professional salaried employees of the council. Um we as councilors and as members of the
00:17:07 we as councilors and as members of the cabinet approved the budgets and you know had to be satisfied or dissatisfied with the senior officers either the chief executive or indeed the executive
00:17:18 chief executive or indeed the executive directors of the relevant departments in terms of making sure that there were sufficient officers within the different
00:17:29 sufficient officers within the different groups within the different departments. I considered that to be the responsibility of the the senior management team on the officer level and they would then if they needed uh if
00:17:42 they would then if they needed uh if they thought they needed more resources, I would have expected them to come to uh the the chief executive and also their cabinet member to bring some political
00:17:53 cabinet member to bring some political pressure to bear to increase the the resources available. Right. You say political pressure. Let let's just see how we go. Can we turn the page on that please to page three and look at little Roman nine. Uh not
00:18:04 and look at little Roman nine. Uh not forgetting that that this article starts with the words each cabinet member is responsible for. And then you can see little Roman nine ensuring adequate staffing premises and other resources to
00:18:15 staffing premises and other resources to secure agreed standards and target outcomes in the key in the area of each portfolio. So, so do do you agree that it was your responsibility
00:18:26 it was your responsibility as a cabinet member uh to ensure those matters as set out in that sub article? I actually don't agree. I as I've just said as a cabinet member you don't agree.
00:18:37 you don't agree. I do not I could not employ staff or fire staff. I could not hire premises or not hire premises. I what we could do
00:18:48 not hire premises. I what we could do was approve or not recommendations brought to us. I was not able to I I was not in charge of the human resources. No, just to be clear um the constitution
00:19:02 No, just to be clear um the constitution requires each cabinet minister uh and we can start at the beginning if you like on page two to be responsible for that's what it that's what it requires. Then if we go to the next
00:19:14 requires. Then if we go to the next page, page three, I'll show it to you again. Ensuring adequate staffing, premises and other resources to secure agreed standards and target outcomes in the area of each portfolio.
00:19:25 outcomes in the area of each portfolio. F
00:19:25 F first of all, did you actually ever understand that that was your responsibility as a a cabinet member?
00:19:35 I so I
00:19:41 I can say I would rely on the advice of the professional directors to tell me whether or not if there was insufficient
00:19:53 whether or not if there was insufficient or inadequate staffing and premises. And if I was told that there was inadequate resources, I then would use my uh best
00:20:05 resources, I then would use my uh best capacities to try and persuade other members of the cabinet that that particular function within the council needed more resources. Yes, I understand that. Uh my my question is really whether you were
00:20:17 question is really whether you were aware that your responsibility involved or included ensuring the matters set out in that sub article. Were you aware?
00:20:30 Were you aware? Well, I was aware to the extent that I've just explained. Right.
00:20:36 Right. It sounds from what you've just explained is that the way you thought you would go about discharging that obligation was by reacting to any requests that came to you. Is that is
00:20:47 requests that came to you. Is that is that your evidence? Is that how you saw it?
00:20:54 Number one, reacting. I would certainly react if uh it was brought to me that there were insufficiencies or inadequacies uh highlighted to me. Equally, if during
00:21:06 uh highlighted to me. Equally, if during my time when I was challenging officers, seeking reassurances, questioning them, it felt to me that there were weaknesses
00:21:17 it felt to me that there were weaknesses and inadequacies, then I would have raised those concerns with the relevant director and maybe through that process we could have done more. But back then
00:21:32 we could have done more. But back then based on the information that I had and the reassurances I was given and the answers to many questions I asked, I generally felt um assured that uh things were being done
00:21:46 assured that uh things were being done adequately.
00:21:49 Were you aware that the TMO was the only burough wide TMO in the whole of the country? I was.
00:22:00 I was. And and is it fair to describe uh the responsibility of which was taken on by the TMO TMO a as a huge amount of responsibility
00:22:13 responsibility and this is Amanda Johnson's evidence in her witness statement at paragraph 113. She described it as a huge amount of responsibility to delegate to another organization. Would you agree with that?
00:22:24 organization. Would you agree with that? I don't remember being told by officers or other counselors who uh had had more experience and knew more about the TMO than I that this was a particularly
00:22:37 than I that this was a particularly unusual amount of responsibility for an ALMO to have or a housing association to have. It wasn't one of the largest housing associations by any stretch of the imagination. There were, as far as I
00:22:48 the imagination. There were, as far as I understand, quite a lot of, you know, independent registered providers, as they became known, that looked after more than 10,000 homes.
00:23:01 Were you aware that Celia Chaliscan was the only officer in housing commissioning specifically tasked to report on on general needs housing, which was the function? I until until I
00:23:13 which was the function? I until until I read the council's opening statement to this module, I was not aware of that. Right.
00:23:21 Right. I as I've said I think before I had many different housing officers reporting to me about the TMO. Um
00:23:34 me about the TMO. Um I can think off the top of my head of at least five or six different officers who would come to policy board talking about the TMO. I did not realize that Celia Chalisan was the only officer
00:23:47 Chalisan was the only officer responsible for that. If if as the article suggests, the constitution suggests you as a cabinet minister were were responsible for ensuring adequate staffing. Are you able
00:23:59 ensuring adequate staffing. Are you able to explain uh why you weren't aware until recently that Celia Chaliscan was the only officer responsible for general needs housing or specifically tasked to report on it?
00:24:11 or specifically tasked to report on it? Because as I said the the line management of officers within a particular department was the job of the senior management team not of uh the
00:24:23 senior management team not of uh the cabinet member. That's as I saw it and as as I had as I again perhaps I should have uh spent more time reading the detail of the constitution
00:24:34 reading the detail of the constitution and uh unpicking exactly what those responsibilities meant. I I you know maybe if I had had more training when I first became a counselor
00:24:46 training when I first became a counselor I would have. But my understanding of the role of a cabinet member was political oversight, strategic direction, making the decisions that were presented to either the cabinet or
00:25:00 were presented to either the cabinet or the cabinet member um and checking and challenging the advice and implementation of those policies. Um not the line management of um
00:25:11 Um not the line management of um individual departments. There areund 100 plus officers I knew in the housing department. I knew that it was broadly broken down into four different groups. In terms of going down how many
00:25:23 In terms of going down how many individual officers were doing each different task within the housing department, I did not see that as the cabinet members uh role and maybe that was a mistake on my part.
00:25:34 was a mistake on my part. Right. Did did you or any other cabinet member or cabinet generally ever do a a benchmarking exercise to compare the number of properties managed by the TMO
00:25:47 number of properties managed by the TMO uh with and the resources being used to do that with other ALMOs or TMOs of similar size? I did not. You did not. Did anybody else do you
00:25:59 You did not. Did anybody else do you know?
00:25:59 know? Not that I know of. Can we then turn to the topic of TMO performance reviews? Can I ask you please to go to your first witness statement at page 18 and let's look together at paragraph 67.
00:26:13 together at paragraph 67. You say there I can only speak and I'm sorry I should have directed your attention to the heading the fire and safety measures within the building at the time of the fire. Uh and at paragraph 67 you say this. Uh, I can
00:26:26 paragraph 67 you say this. Uh, I can only speak to the asurances given to the council by the TMO which were either made in emails or were included in reports presented to the housing and property scrutiny committee from time to time. The TMO kept the council informed and updated on fire safety issues across
00:26:38 and updated on fire safety issues across the housing stock. The council sought and received regular reassurance that the TMO was performing these fire safety related responsibilities satisfactorily. Uh, who gave you that regular
00:26:50 Uh, who gave you that regular reassurance? Do you remember? Uh primarily it was through reports which were authored by Laura Johnson um but also as I say through emails which
00:27:03 but also as I say through emails which were either forwarded to me uh by Laura Johnson or um from other officers from time to time. I think Amanda Johnson sometimes and maybe directly sometimes from people in the TMO. When you say
00:27:14 from people in the TMO. When you say reports, are you referring to the performance review reports uh which you covered at paragraphs 69 to 73? PI primarily
00:27:26 PI primarily primarily. Are there any other reports? Other I mean leave aside leave aside email exchanges between you and Laura Johnson for the moment. Uh when you say reports I there was there were the
00:27:38 reports I there was there were the annual and midyear reviews as well, right?
00:27:45 uh what was your understanding of how those reports and I when I say those reports I mean the performance review reports specifically uh what was your understanding of how those were produced
00:28:00 I I don't have a detailed understanding of how they were produced my understanding was that my assumption was that the basic information and data would be provided by the housing department by the TMO the housing
00:28:13 department by the TMO the housing department, the the that housing commissioning group would review it, test it, turn that into a report, which they then presented to me and to the
00:28:24 they then presented to me and to the housing and property scrutiny committee. I see. So, so was it your understanding, building on that last answer, exploring it, that your understanding was that the housing commissioning group would test
00:28:35 housing commissioning group would test the the raw data provided by the TMO? That
00:28:41 That that was
00:28:43 that was probably an assumption that I made. Yes. Assumption, understanding. Nobody told you that, did they? Well, the report was in the name of Laura Johnson and often had, I think,
00:28:55 Laura Johnson and often had, I think, the name of either Amanda Johnson or Celia Kaliscan underneath it. So, that was why I thought that. Right. Okay. Let's just break that up a little bit. You you you said in your
00:29:07 little bit. You you you said in your answer a moment ago uh that your your understanding or your assumption it doesn't matter which for the moment uh was that the basic information and data would be provided by the housing
00:29:18 would be provided by the housing department by the TMO uh the housing commissioning group would review it test it and turn it into a report and what I'm seeking to understand is um what was the basis of
00:29:30 understand is um what was the basis of your understanding or assumption uh that the housing commissioning group would test the data because they gave they in those reports they would tend to give a
00:29:41 those reports they would tend to give a judgment on how the TMO is performing. I see you say they so the report would say it has been another successful year for the TMO. The TMO has done this and that and therefore
00:29:54 TMO has done this and that and therefore I assumed that that was a judgment based on some degree of challenge. Right. How did you know uh that or how how would you have known whether or not
00:30:07 how would you have known whether or not the housing commissioning group was challenging the data by spot checks or scrutinizing it? There were examples of meeting sorry may I
00:30:14 I sorry I thought sorry let me put it slightly differently. Let me put it slightly differently. Um you you could see that a judgment had been made by the housing commissioning group Celia Chalis and Laura Johnson director
00:30:26 Celia Chalis and Laura Johnson director of housing in the report. Why did that lead you to believe that they themselves uh or anybody at RBKC had actually tested the underlying data? Well, there were instances where I remember Laura
00:30:39 were instances where I remember Laura Johnson
00:30:40 Johnson at a policy board like actually raising issues which had been areas of underperformance and challenging because I think normally members of the TMO
00:30:51 I think normally members of the TMO would come to the policy board to present these reports before they went to scrutiny committee and I've seen minutes of such meetings where um Laura Johnson has raised areas of concern and
00:31:05 Johnson has raised areas of concern and asked for the TMO what they're going to do to improve that and it was that sort of questioning which reassured me that the housing department were indeed testing
00:31:14 testing right just to get the process clear is this right the TMO would come to would would present a report to the policy board you would be at the policy board so you would observe the interaction
00:31:26 so you would observe the interaction with the TMO there yes
00:31:29 yes between the housing officers and the TMO yes
00:31:32 yes yes
00:31:32 yes and then is this Right. Um the report would then go to the scrutiny committee. So there'd be a further scrutinization of the report. That's my recollection of the process.
00:31:43 That's my recollection of the process. Yes.
00:31:43 Yes. I see.
00:31:49 Did you consider the information provided in the reports you saw particularly regarding fire safety to be sufficiently detailed so as to be able to enable u informed scrutiny by by
00:32:03 to enable u informed scrutiny by by councilors or by cabinet members such as you.
00:32:07 you. Given the fact that I myself and as far as I knew
00:32:12 as I knew not many other counselors had technical expertise with regards to fire safety and regulations of such I was satisfied that the standing item in those reports
00:32:24 that the standing item in those reports which specifically dealt with health and safety. the fact that I I saw uh examples of where the council's internal audit had done full reviews of the TMO's health and safety functioning and given
00:32:35 health and safety functioning and given it a substantial rating. um and that we were constantly being told that they had uh you know fire risk assessors doing it all in accordance with best practice meeting with the LFB regularly that this
00:32:48 meeting with the LFB regularly that this seemed to be something that was high up on the TMO's uh list of to-dos and I personally did get satisfaction that
00:32:59 personally did get satisfaction that they were doing what one would hope was um necessary. What would hope was necessary?
00:33:11 What do you mean? That's what I said. Yes. Yes or no? What do you mean by that? Well, I suppose I say hope because based on what we know happened, it turned out to be hope rather than
00:33:26 knowledge. Right. Um turning to Grenfell specifically in this context. Um can we look at your first witness statement of page seven please paragraph 29.
00:33:40 Um you say there uh that the council continued to control the HR on a strategic level etc. Based on the advice of council officers the cabinet would approve the H
00:33:52 officers the cabinet would approve the H business plans and large projects and it would make decisions about future strategic plans for the HA as a whole or for specific estates or blocks. Uh but once the cabinet and then you say
00:34:04 Uh but once the cabinet and then you say this but once the cabinet had approved the HA's business plan or the budget for a specific project the actual implementation of such a plan and housing management of the entire HR housing stock including the discharge of
00:34:16 housing stock including the discharge of fire safety responsibilities was delegated to the TMO as were major capital works projects like the Granfell Tower refurbishment. Did you consider that the scale and cost
00:34:28 Did you consider that the scale and cost of the Granfell Tower project per se called for particularly close scrutiny from RBKC?
00:34:38 I I would say that the Grenfell Tower refurbishment project certainly got closer scrutiny from RBKC than nearly any other of the major capital projects that the TMO worked on that I
00:34:50 projects that the TMO worked on that I can remember. Did you specifically do anything um as deputy leader or more specifically as cabinet member for housing, property and regeneration from May 2013 I think um to ensure that for
00:35:04 May 2013 I think um to ensure that for that project there were adequate monitoring and oversight arrangements in place.
00:35:11 place. Can you monitoring and oversight arrangements of Can you be a bit more specific please? Uh yes uh monitoring and oversight arrangements in respect of the handling by the TMO of the project
00:35:24 the handling by the TMO of the project as client.
00:35:34 So I'm trying to did I do anything in particular? I mean I asked many questions. I responded to many emails. No, let me try again. Yeah, that's not that's not the question. I thought you
00:35:45 that's not the question. I thought you were answering a different question. Let me try again. Did you yourself take any steps in your capacity as cabinet member for housing, property, and regeneration to make sure that for the Grenell Tower
00:35:57 to make sure that for the Grenell Tower project there was there was adequate monitoring and oversight arrangements in place in respect of the TMO's role as client on the project? The TMO wasn't the client.
00:36:09 The TMO wasn't the client. You're saying I'm sorry. I'm just not understanding exactly what Try putting the question another way, Mr. Millet. I Yes. All right. You're obviously not making yourself clear enough. I'm not getting through. No. Uh well,
00:36:20 I'm not getting through. No. Uh well, okay. Let me try it this way. What did you understand the TMO's role to be in respect of the Granfell Tower project?
00:36:30 Sorry, now I understand what you're saying. So, they were the client of Ryden and the professional team. Sorry, I thought you were talking about them as managing agents to the Kenzian Chelsea Council.
00:36:40 Council. No,
00:36:40 No, sorry.
00:36:41 sorry. My fault.
00:36:41 My fault. Sorry.
00:36:42 Sorry. Right. Now, now, now I've made that clearer to you. Uh, did So, did I take specific Yes. actions to make sure that the TMO
00:36:53 to make sure that the TMO No, I didn't because the TMO was its own legal entity with its own independent board which I had I had been
00:37:06 I had I had been given the sense and reassurance that since the times which we referred to earlier on when the TMO had been given an improvement project which is before I
00:37:17 an improvement project which is before I was on the cabinet I had been given the sense that the new executive team, the new board that the TMO was functioning much more effectively, that they had brought in Peter Madison who had um I
00:37:30 brought in Peter Madison who had um I was told relevant skills to do these sorts of larger capital projects and all the evidence that I was shown at that time, such as the test of opinion and
00:37:42 time, such as the test of opinion and the regular performance reports gave me the impression that the TMO was capable. of doing that job and that it was doing that job well. Now
00:37:54 that job well. Now it's a different story but back then based on the information I had that was the impression I was under. uh when you assumed the responsibility as cabinet
00:38:05 assumed the responsibility as cabinet member for housing, property and regeneration in May 2013, what prior experience did you think or see that the TMO had as
00:38:16 did you think or see that the TMO had as uh client in the way I've explained it in respect of such a major capital project?
00:38:25 project? I don't remember um particularly being told or asking. What you have to remember is when I was made cabinet member, I inherited that
00:38:36 cabinet member, I inherited that project. It wasn't it was something which had been uh initiated or initially approved by my predecessor and
00:38:48 it it was not really I didn't think up to me to start unraveling uh anything that he had already decided. Uh right let's try and break that down a
00:39:00 Uh right let's try and break that down a little bit more if we can. Do you agree that when you took on that responsibility in May 2013, from what you could tell, the TMO had never done a project of that size
00:39:13 never done a project of that size or that significance? I'm afraid I don't remember asking that question and therefore not knowing it was the case whether or not they had. So you didn't know one way or the other.
00:39:24 So you didn't know one way or the other. I don't remember that. No. Right. But but nonetheless, you were content to rely on what you could see as the track record of the TMO going back to 2010.
00:39:35 to 2010. I I thought I didn't I suppose if I'm trying to think about it at the time, it was a large project for the HR. It was something which was unusual for
00:39:46 It was something which was unusual for the HA to be able to afford to spend that much money because of this kind of unusual receipts that had been received through the Elm Park garden sales and it was unusual to be able to
00:39:59 and it was unusual to be able to undertake a project of that scale. So the but the TMO was as far as I understood it that was the mechanism that was in place. The tenants had voted
00:40:10 that was in place. The tenants had voted under the right to manage to set up a TMO. The TMO was an organization that was tenantled. It was nonprofit. It had gone through difficulties, but I was
00:40:22 gone through difficulties, but I was assured that it had an executive team and a new board that was making great progress and had appointed a professional like Peter Madison who had the relevant experience to undertake
00:40:33 had the relevant experience to undertake this sort of project. M and are we to take it that your perception of those matters as you've just described them was the reason why you at least didn't think it was necessary to set up
00:40:45 think it was necessary to set up specific monitoring and oversight arrangements in respect of the Granfield Tower project.
00:40:53 So specific extra oversightes by the council of the TMO in addition to the oversightes that I thought the council already had in place. Yes.
00:41:03 Yes. Yes. Thank you. Now, let's move then to the actual refurbishment itself and the decision to to to to do it and its budget. Um, in in your second witness statement, uh, let's look at it. It's,
00:41:15 statement, uh, let's look at it. It's, uh, at RBK 305433, page two, you say at paragraph 5, it's a long paragraph. Uh in the fourth line, I became aware,
00:41:27 Uh in the fourth line, I became aware, you say, of the potential refurbishment at Grrenfell Tower through an informal discussion with councelor Karage in March 2012 because of my interest in regeneration generally and because I was aware the council had previously
00:41:38 aware the council had previously commissioned a study on potential regeneration of the Lancaster West estate of which Grenell Tower formed a part by urban initiatives. I remember asking councelor Karidge whether the refurbishment would hinder or obstruct
00:41:49 refurbishment would hinder or obstruct any future potential regeneration of the whole Lancaster West estate. He suggested that we meet with Laura Johnson to to discuss this question. Now, just on that that reference there
00:42:02 Now, just on that that reference there to an earlier study, were you referring to a study entitled Notting Barnes south draft final master plan report from 2009?
00:42:14 I don't remember the title. Was that done by urban initiatives? It uh well, let's look at it rather than me reading out a lengthy title. IWS42090.
00:42:28 Uh this is the first page of an Yes. of the urban urban initiatives uh plan. Yes.
00:42:35 Yes. I think that's what I was referring to. Right. Uh are you aware that that was presented to an RBKC cabinet working group in September 2009 who was and they were asked to note it? Do do you know
00:42:46 were asked to note it? Do do you know anything about that? I I'm afraid I cannot remember a specific work. I I do remember this um this piece of work being done. Right. Did you know that Jonathan Bore
00:42:59 Right. Did you know that Jonathan Bore who was executive director of planning and burough development from March 2010 had previously worked at Urban Initiatives as their director of planning?
00:43:08 planning? Do you know what I now that you mention it maybe I did know that right?
00:43:17 right? You did did do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do you remember having any conversations with Jonathan bore about the Latima master plan by which I mean this document or plans similar to it.
00:43:29 it. Um I don't specifically but I easily could have done can we look at page 19 of this document please?
00:43:42 Uh this is under part five options development housing options and if you look at the right hand column uh you can see that there are a number of bullet points halfway down and it
00:43:55 of bullet points halfway down and it says although the plan has been developed to be flexible enough to retain many of the buildings if future assessments take al alternative views the following buildings merit a particular discussion and then you can see the second bullet point down there
00:44:06 see the second bullet point down there granfell tower we consider that the appearance of this building and the way in which it meets the ground blight lights much of the area east of Latimer Road Station. It also provides no outdoor space for residents and is
00:44:17 outdoor space for residents and is likely to be of a type of construction that is hard to adapt. It does contain 120 homes. On balance, our preferred approach is to assume demolition. Uh and there are other references in this
00:44:29 there are other references in this document to demolition of Granfell Tower, for example, pages 25 and 26 and on page 38 in respect of phase two of this plan. Were you aware of that? Were
00:44:40 this plan. Were you aware of that? Were you aware that that this document uh spoke of of the preference for demolition of Granfield Tower? Um I
00:44:50 don't remember the detail of this document at all. I do remember like that that must have been something that I
00:45:00 that I thought could have been a possibility because that was one of the reasons that I asked for that meeting. Well, that I I was talking to Council Karidge about it. Yes. And when Yes. So
00:45:11 Yes. And when Yes. So right and and we know that in the end of course the decision was taken not to demolish Granfell Tower but to refurbishment. Are you able to tell us briefly why that was?
00:45:22 briefly why that was? So my recollection uh of that discussion and then what was discussed at cabinet was that this was an incredibly draft high level overview
00:45:36 an incredibly draft high level overview of what might one day be possible. Um but councelor Karidge and Laura Johnson who were
00:45:46 who were at the coldface as it were um and understood the situation on the ground as it was then in 2012 were very mindful of the fact that Grenful Tower hadn't had serious capital
00:45:59 Grenful Tower hadn't had serious capital investment for many many years that there were all sorts of problems with the windows the communal heating um drafts that residents in the tower felt that they had not uh been listened to
00:46:13 that they had not uh been listened to and looked after and that they wanted their properties uh invested in. And that any such long-term uh solution that
00:46:25 that any such long-term uh solution that might be offered by uh an estate regeneration project like this would take years and years and years and years to even possibly get off the ground. And therefore it was necessary to take the
00:46:39 therefore it was necessary to take the decision to invest in Grenful Tower more immediately. And Dora Johnson's reassurance to me was that the investment in refurbishing Grenful Tower would not necessarily
00:46:51 would not necessarily uh preclude the possibility of a wider estate regeneration if the council one day wanted to do that in the future. Now that reassurance to you, did that take place at the meeting that uh you had
00:47:03 place at the meeting that uh you had with Laura Johnson on the 25th of April 2012? You were 30 in your with Laura Johnson and Timothy Karage. Yeah.
00:47:10 Yeah. And councelor Karidge. Now let let's you you cover that lower down in the same paragraph of your second witness statement, paragraph 5, and I don't need to take you back to that. Let's look at the email uh that you sent to Miss
00:47:23 the email uh that you sent to Miss Johnson after that meeting, which I think you produce as RFM2. It's at RBK3028392
00:47:34 and it's the email at the uh bottom of the page uh and over onto page two. Uh as you can see 25th of April 2012 subject. Thank you. Dear Miss Johnson,
00:47:46 subject. Thank you. Dear Miss Johnson, thank you for that meeting we just had. I always enjoy our discussions. I acknowledge all the points you make and I'm glad to hear you are keeping the bigger long-term potential in mind. could you please get me a copy of that urban initiative study as I'd like to
00:47:57 urban initiative study as I'd like to refresh my memory of what they came up with. Thanks again. And uh then she responds to you higher up page one and says we'll do I'll pop a
00:48:09 up page one and says we'll do I'll pop a copy in your pigeon hole and then you respond to her uh and say at the top uh on the 20 on the 30th of April just below the top. By the way, if you're getting architects to look at recladding
00:48:21 getting architects to look at recladding Grenfell Tower, may I suggest you look at the estate that's that's currently being renovated reclaimed on Dukane Road just opposite the Hammersmith Hospital. I think they've done a much better job there than on the big towers off Stan's
00:48:34 there than on the big towers off Stan's Villas.
00:48:36 Villas. By better job there, what what did you mean?
00:48:39 mean? I thought it looked better. Yeah.
00:48:42 Yeah. Was anybody else at this meeting apart from you and Miss Johnson and Timothy Karidge? Yes. Uh, nobody. No one else? No.
00:48:50 No. No one there from the TMO? No.
00:48:52 No. In what capacity were you meeting Laura Johnson?
00:48:55 Johnson? I was another cabinet member who was interested and this report was going to be going to cabinet and I was asking questions and I think councelor Karidge
00:49:06 questions and I think councelor Karidge wanted me to be able to ask those questions and get reassurances right before the cabinet meeting. At this stage you were cabinet member for civil society. Yes. But this decision would have been made by the full cabinet
00:49:18 made by the full cabinet was made by the full cabinet. So I would have had a say in that decision which I did and after speaking to Timothy Karage and Laura Johnson I like the rest of the cabinet approved the decision to go
00:49:29 cabinet approved the decision to go ahead with refurbishment. Why would
00:49:34 Why would this discussion fall within your portfolio as cabinet member for civil society? didn't fall within my portfolio but it was going to cabinet and those decisions were taken collectively. So
00:49:46 decisions were taken collectively. So every cabinet member had a role in this making those decisions. But not every cabinet member went to the meeting. So why were you why did you go specifically? Because I had
00:49:58 Because I had specifically expressed or asked some questions.
00:50:04 Right. I see. say just just because so you were there because one you were a cabinet member and two you were you were you were interested. I mean counselors could request meetings with senior officers.
00:50:15 with senior officers. Yes. I'm not being critical. I just want to know why you were there. That's all that
00:50:18 that and that's why. All right. Um is it right that you were the one who asked for this meeting with Laura Johnson? Well, actually Timothy Karidge
00:50:29 Johnson? Well, actually Timothy Karidge asked for it because so the cabinet members shared an office in the town hall. Um, and my recollection is that Tim and I
00:50:42 and my recollection is that Tim and I were were chatting. He was talking about this upcoming decision that he was going to take to cabinet and I started asking the questions which we've just been discussing and he said, "Why don't we
00:50:53 discussing and he said, "Why don't we have a meeting with Laura Johnson?" Yes, I see. And and in your statement, I think you say you you asked for this meeting.
00:51:00 meeting. I think I say he asked for it. Well,
00:51:05 let's go back then, rather than quibble, let's go back to paragraph five of your second statement and see exactly what you did say so I don't misquote you.
00:51:15 Uh you say, uh I remember this is um I remember asking him and he suggested that we meet with Johnson. Yes. He suggest I remember asking
00:51:26 Yes. He suggest I remember asking councelor Karidge whether the refurbishment would hinder or obstruct any future potential regeneration of the whole Lancaster West estate. He suggested we meet Laura Johnson to discuss this question and then you then
00:51:37 discuss this question and then you then you refer to an an earlier email. Uh and then uh you go on uh to explain what happened at the meeting. Um
00:51:49 happened at the meeting. Um you were I think interested though in going to the meeting because of your interest in regeneration generally.
00:51:56 Is that a question? Yes.
00:51:58 Yes. Yes. And is that interest in regeneration generally was that a political interest or a personal interest or an in Explain the nature of that interest.
00:52:11 It was a political interest, right?
00:52:14 right? In that in that in that I thought I knew that there was a severe shortage of afford there was much more demand for affordable housing in Kensington and Chelsea than there was supply
00:52:26 Chelsea than there was supply and there was a shortage of land on which to build more affordable housing. And
00:52:34 And I had the uh the notion that the regeneration of council estates was one of the ways in which the council could
00:52:46 of the ways in which the council could play its part in trying to increase the amount of affordable housing. Lower down that paragraph, she says, and this is six lines from the bottom. My recollection is that Laura Johnson
00:52:57 recollection is that Laura Johnson explained the pressing need for the Granfell Tower refurbishment project. Uh do you remember why she viewed the refurbishment of Granfell Tower as a
00:53:08 refurbishment of Granfell Tower as a pressing need? I think I
00:53:12 I think I mentioned the reasons earlier and they're effectively the reasons which are set out in the cabinet report. So, windows, heating, drafts.
00:53:24 So, windows, heating, drafts. There's a quite a long list in that report, I think. Now, the calc project was ongoing at the time of this meeting. Did Laura Johnson mention anything about the potential effect of the Granfell Tower refurbishment on Cal?
00:53:37 refurbishment on Cal? Not that I remember.
00:53:43 Uh we've we've looked at your follow-up email and your ref your reference to the Dukane Road uh re renovation. Do you remember whether during the meeting Laura Johnson had particularly focused
00:53:54 Laura Johnson had particularly focused on the cladding aspect of the refurbishment of Grrenfell Tower? I don't remember that being a particular area of focus. Do you remember it being mentioned at all?
00:54:05 all? I guess it probably was mentioned. Yeah.
00:54:10 Yeah. At that meeting, do you remember whether there was any discussion of the thermal performance of Granfell Tower? I don't remember whether it was at that meeting. I know that that was one of the
00:54:21 meeting. I know that that was one of the reasons given in the cabinet report which we'll come to I think. But do you remember whether there's any discussion at that meeting about the reasons for the cladding? I don't remember.
00:54:33 I don't remember. Were there any discussions about the potential improvements to the interior of Granfell Tower discussed during that meeting? Do you remember? I'm afraid I really can't remember the
00:54:44 I'm afraid I really can't remember the details of what was. I remember the basic point was that it it was felt by both Laura Johnson and councelor Karage that there was a very good case for immediate investment in
00:54:57 good case for immediate investment in Grenful Tower and that the residents in the tower
00:55:03 the tower couldn't be expected to wait for as long as it would take which would have been many many many years for a potential estate regeneration project which may or may never have happened.
00:55:15 may never have happened. Did you come away with the impression that uh the the primary purpose of the refurbishment was to improve the aesthetics of Granfell Tower?
00:55:26 aesthetics of Granfell Tower? No.
00:55:27 No. Was there any discussion about how the look of Granfell Tower would match or integrate with Cal? Not that I remember. Was there any discussion about who the
00:55:38 Was there any discussion about who the architect should be for the Granfell Tower project at that meeting? Yes. I don't think so. No. Uh, let's look on further into the year. Can we go to RBK43323,
00:55:51 Can we go to RBK43323, please?
00:55:52 please? This is an email from you on the 2nd of May, 2012 to uh this is it's halfway down your screen to Quentyn
00:56:03 it's halfway down your screen to Quentyn Marshall and Jonathan Reed. Q and J. You say
00:56:11 uh have you seen this evening's cabinet paper A6 about committing6 million pounds to the refurbishment of Grenful Tower? Did TimC bring this proposal to your scrutiny committee? If so, what was your take on the on your proposal?
00:56:24 your take on the on your proposal? Uh and you can see the response above that from uh looks like Jonathan Reed. U he was a counselor, wasn't he? He was at the court ward as you can see.
00:56:35 He was at the court ward as you can see. and he says this, "I'm sure that ignoring the wider context and the inconvenience of financial constraints, this is a quote terribly nice unquote thing to do and that's why it's been proposed."
00:56:46 proposed." Did you share councelor Reed's view that the project had been proposed as a quote terribly nice thing to do? No, I wouldn't have uh No. What
00:56:58 No, I wouldn't have uh No. What What did you think he meant?
00:57:02 I I'm I'm not sure. Did you get the impression at the time that councelor Reid was against allocating funds to this project? No, I didn't.
00:57:13 No, I didn't. I I was interested in they they were two councilors who I liked and respected who were on the housing and property scrutiny committee and I was interested in knowing whether it had gone to
00:57:25 in knowing whether it had gone to scrutiny and if so what scrutiny's views on the decision were before I was asked to make a decision at cabinet about it. Right. Uh in the next paragraph he says the TMO tell me that they have big
00:57:37 the TMO tell me that they have big problems here. Apparently there's a communal heating system and hot water and heating are not separable. Consequently having hot water in summer requires sweltering hot rooms and people cannot open the windows. The
00:57:48 and people cannot open the windows. The sum of 6 million cannot be met from the TMO's usual 8 million or same maintenance budget without compromising all other work. They claim at least. However, I think this is just a symptom of the fact that we do not collect
00:57:59 of the fact that we do not collect enough rent on TMO properties to maintain them, let alone do major works. Therefore, we have to dip into the cookie jar and take snacks from other parts of the community as we're doing here. This is not sustainable. And then
00:58:11 here. This is not sustainable. And then he talks about uh the speed of rent increases in the final paragraph. Um did you agree with what he was saying there about about the problem about funding being? So what I took away from
00:58:24 funding being? So what I took away from this meet this email was that he was actually backing up what Timothy Karage and Norah Johnson had told me which was there was a great need for investment in
00:58:35 there was a great need for investment in Grenful Tower because of the problems to do with heating hot water and other lack of you know problems with the fact that hadn't had investment over the years. He
00:58:46 hadn't had investment over the years. He was also backing up the fact that under the TMO's funding and HA's funding regime at that time that the it it would have been impossible to have done this
00:58:57 have been impossible to have done this project without using the money coming from El Park Gardens. Do you say you agree with him that it you needed to well take a capital sum rather than relying on uh the um maintenance budget?
00:59:09 relying on uh the um maintenance budget? I don't think there's ever been any question about that. No, I would say the answer is yes. I agreed with the ad not just of Jonathan Reid but of the director of housing and the cabinet
00:59:20 director of housing and the cabinet member for housing at the time who were suggesting that we needed to use the funds from Elmp Park Gardens capital receipts to invest in this tower because there were uh great needs for investment
00:59:31 there were uh great needs for investment and is that what you understood by his reference to dipping into the cookie jar and taking snacks from other parts of I to be honest that I don't that didn't really ring a bell with me my understanding but it
00:59:46 I think it it's very I I now know I think that the whole funding and ring fencing of the HRO is maybe more complicated than I understood at the time. My understanding was that garages
01:00:00 time. My understanding was that garages and basement flats that had been sold in Al Park Gardens were on an HA estate. there were capital receipts from the sale of HRA property and we had to use those capital receipts on regeneration
01:00:12 those capital receipts on regeneration projects within the HR. So I didn't my understanding was one could not use funds capital funds from the general fund to cross subsidize the HR. So
01:00:25 fund to cross subsidize the HR. So that's what would have been in his terminology uh taking snacks from other parts that was not allowed. We had to use money that was inside the ring fence HRA and
01:00:36 that was inside the ring fence HRA and my understanding was that the Elmpop Garden sale receipts were just that. I see. So you didn't agree with him about dipping into the cookie jar.
01:00:47 about dipping into the cookie jar. Perhaps you didn't express it, but you wouldn't have agreed with that. I didn't I don't think I replied to this email.
01:00:51 email. No, no, no, that's right. You didn't. But
01:00:56 But if you had, then you wouldn't have agreed with him about that. No. Um, now we know that cabinet in the end did approve a budget for the project initially of some6.9 million.
01:01:08 initially of some6.9 million. Yes.
01:01:09 Yes. Yes. Was that the was the decision of the cabinet unanimous in that respect? Do you think? I I believe it was. And I I can we assume that you were personally supportive of the
01:01:21 personally supportive of the refurbishment works at Grenfell Tower? You don't need to assume that. I'm telling you, right? Uh do you remember whether any member of the cabinet expressed any opposition to allocating uh that sum to
01:01:33 opposition to allocating uh that sum to Granville Tower? I do not remember that. Was was there any objection taken to the size of the sum requested? Not that I recall. Was there any discussion about reverting to the demolition as part of the 2009
01:01:44 to the demolition as part of the 2009 master plan study? Not that I recall. Did you think uh or were you told that the figure being put forward uh for approval was very much an outline um estimate based on some very
01:01:56 outline um estimate based on some very headline numbers and not a properly costed budget? I cannot remember specifically being told that whether we were or we weren't, but it was not uncommon
01:02:09 but it was not uncommon uh within the council for these sorts of initial budgets to be high level because my understanding of how it worked was that the relevant council departments or
01:02:22 that the relevant council departments or in this case the TMO couldn't start spending significant amounts of money on consulting if there was no budget approved. So it
01:02:34 if there was no budget approved. So it it happened quite regularly more so for example in the corporate property regime where there would be a high level budget agreed by the cabinet.
01:02:47 high level budget agreed by the cabinet. So that went onto the budget in the capital program which enabled officers or in this case the TMO to do much more detailed work and then there would be a revision to that budget in the future.
01:02:59 revision to that budget in the future. I see. So do I take it from that that although there was this approval initially on that initial number everybody realized that it was going to go up at some point or was likely to be revised I would say we none of us would have
01:03:11 I would say we none of us would have been particularly surprised when it came back to be revised right in fact can we go further you would have been surprised if it hadn't I wouldn't go further but no
01:03:22 I wouldn't go further but no all right now we know that uh in July 2013
01:03:28 2013 cabinet approved an increase in the budget to £7.9 million. 9.7 I think you are quite right. 9.7 million. I misread my note. That was on Laura Johnson's recommendation, wasn't it?
01:03:39 Johnson's recommendation, wasn't it? It was.
01:03:40 It was. Um, can we look at RBK43316, please?
01:03:47 Uh, this is the housing policy board minute for the 4th of July 2013. And we can see that you are in attendance together with councelor Husband and Laura Johnson is also there. Uh now
01:03:59 Uh now you is it right you were attending the housing policy board because is this right because you are now cabinet member with responsibility for property housing
01:04:10 with responsibility for property housing and regeneration. Correct.
01:04:12 Correct. Yes.
01:04:15 Uh and this meeting occurred is this right before the cabinet meeting at which the increase to 9.7 million pounds was approved. Yes. I can't remember the
01:04:26 was approved. Yes. I can't remember the exact date of the cabinet meeting but if you
01:04:30 you uh if you have seen that then yes well well it would be normal wouldn't it for the housing policy board to meet before
01:04:35 before well housing policy board met every week well all right let's go to page three
01:04:44 um if you go to page three you can see just below the top of the screen councelor Fielding Melon query queried increasing the budget provision for improving groundfell tower to9.7 million pounds Laura Johnson said that the
01:04:56 pounds Laura Johnson said that the council has not spent any money on maintaining the building in over 30 years and the capital receipt from El Park Gardens has been set aside to undertake the works. Why did you query the increase?
01:05:09 Why did you query the increase? I think it would have been remiss of me not to ask why a why it was going to go to cabinet asking for an increase of over 50%.
01:05:19 over 50%. It's public money indeed. It's money within the HR which is ring fenced and I would certainly want to have an explanation from the director of housing before going and supporting such uh
01:05:30 before going and supporting such uh request to my colleagues on the cabinet.
01:05:37 Uh yes um that's an answer to one part of the question I suppose. Um my let me try it again. Were you querying the increase um because it was such a large
01:05:48 increase um because it was such a large increase or were you querying the increase because the initial figure was so low?
01:05:52 so low? I think I was wanting to understand what why the increase was necessary and what
01:06:01 what was going to be delivered with that increased budget? Yes. Were you surprised when Laura Johnson told you that the council had not spent any money on maintaining that building in 30 years? I wasn't surprised
01:06:12 building in 30 years? I wasn't surprised then because she had told me that in 2012.
01:06:18 2012. Yes. And she repeated it. Why did Did that satisfy you given that she'd already given you the answer? I think my my my guess is that
01:06:29 I think my my my guess is that the note in this minute is um a a pretty abbreviated version of that discussion. Yes. It's I don't think it's Is this your This isn't your note, is it? I
01:06:40 your This isn't your note, is it? I didn't take these notes. No. So I don't think it's it's fair to assume that responsibility. You can see that what she says there. Laura Johnson said the council has not spent any money on maintaining the building. If that was if that was the only
01:06:52 If that was if that was the only explanation she gave, I would not have been satisfied. I'm very confident that she would have gone into more detail explaining why the budget was going up from six to 9.7.
01:07:04 from six to 9.7. Yes. And what was it? What was her explanation? off the top of my head I can't remember exactly but I think for example they had increased the number of there would have been there would have been some suggestion that the initial 6
01:07:17 been some suggestion that the initial 6 million was a very high level guesstimate and then I also believe that there was an increase in the number of hidden homes I think that doing redoing
01:07:29 hidden homes I think that doing redoing the boxing club and the nursery were also new components of the project.
01:07:39 I don't remember them being in the 2012 cabinet report. Do you remember going through a breakdown of the elements of the increase?
01:07:48 increase? Uh, I don't remember now, but I'm what I am confident of because it was my typical way of working was that I would have wanted assurance that it wasn't a
01:07:59 have wanted assurance that it wasn't a very um there was good reasoning for that increase. Now, this is a draft minute as you can see. Was it your custom or practice to receive the finalized minutes of these policy board meetings?
01:08:09 meetings? I did normally get the the draft minutes um because these were informal meetings. They were more uh for keeping actions,
01:08:21 They were more uh for keeping actions, noting things. I would have skimmed through this draft minute before the next meeting. Um, and sometimes the following week's uh minute would note
01:08:34 following week's uh minute would note that I but I'd normally only flag something if I considered the action to have been mistaken rather than uh a not perfectly worded verbatim
01:08:45 uh a not perfectly worded verbatim description of the discussion. Right. I mean, when you or if you saw this this
01:08:52 this this document
01:08:54 document and seen the response recorded there. Uh did you not ask for the full response and full reasons given by Laura Johnson to be recorded? No.
01:09:04 No. Why is that? Because as I've said this was an informal note of a meeting. I was satisfied with the reasons that Laura Johnson had given. I felt confident that when it went to cabinet, I could support
01:09:17 when it went to cabinet, I could support Laura Johnson's reasoning for the request to improve increase it and I was confident that she would have answers to any questions that other cabinet members might pose at that cabinet meeting. I
01:09:28 might pose at that cabinet meeting. I didn't feel it was necessary to make them this informal minute of a bait record of what was discussed. No, the question you asked her was quite an important one though, wasn't it? It
01:09:39 an important one though, wasn't it? It it was and I felt that I had an answer. And given that the answer that we see on the page you say wouldn't have satisfied you, my question is why uh did you not insist on a record of what she did tell
01:09:50 insist on a record of what she did tell you uh which did satisfy you?
01:09:57 Well, I I've I think I've explained and I don't have much more to say. Right. Um
01:10:05 Right. Um when the budget increase was discussed in cabinet later in that month again was that decision unanimous in approving the increase?
01:10:16 approving the increase? My understanding is that had it not been unanimous
01:10:21 unanimous the the cabinet member who disagreed would have been noted in the minutes and that was not the case. So I I believe it was unanimous. Do you remember whether any member of the cabinet
01:10:33 any member of the cabinet asked for a breakdown of the figures making up the increase to 9.7 million? I do not remember and reme I don't I don't remember now. Right.
01:10:45 Right. Do you remember whether any member of the cabinet asked for an explanation about how the initial budget number of six odd million could have been so wildly a drift?
01:10:57 I don't remember. That means that does not mean that no one did but I don't remember.
01:11:02 remember. No. Now we know as I say that uh there was the increase. Do you remember that there was a further increase in the budget for the Grandfell Tower refurbishment in June 2014?
01:11:13 refurbishment in June 2014? I do remember to be precise the 19th. I do remember. And do you remember that that went up from 9.7 million to in the end 10.3 million?
01:11:21 million? I do remember. Yes. Um and uh if we go please to RBK 403688.
01:11:32 We can see the discussion of this increase at the housing and economic uh development policy board the uh 5th of June 2014. You're in attendance uh and
01:11:43 June 2014. You're in attendance uh and among the offices we again we see Laura Johnson.
01:11:47 Johnson. What was the housing and economic development policy board? Was that a different policy board? No, it was slightly I economic development was a small team
01:11:58 economic development was a small team within the council that sat within my portfolio under the regeneration bit and they would sometimes come to my policy board. So I presume the minute taker
01:12:09 board. So I presume the minute taker here maybe there was an the angle co-work anyway I can't remember I presume there was an agenda item which was from the economic development team.
01:12:20 was from the economic development team. That was Tony Redpath, Richard Miller and Graham Hart. Right.
01:12:24 Right. I see. And um at this meeting uh what was your assessment? Do you remember of the request for the increase? Can you just to make sure I'm
01:12:35 Can you just to make sure I'm remembering the right document? I'm looking at the moment at the attendees. Uh yes, that's right. So can you I'm asking you whether you remember the meeting.
01:12:44 meeting. Uh I is this the meeting at which we discussed whether uh to ask the cabinet for an increase and whether it should be 10.1 or 10.3.
01:12:55 and whether it should be 10.1 or 10.3. Uh let's go to page two please. Uh noting the date and this is item six. Grenfield Tower. Policy board discussed the draft report. Councelor Fielding Melon stated that the report needed to
01:13:07 Melon stated that the report needed to explain the increased budget allocation and justify the difference. policy board discussed the contingency not currently provided for increasing the budget from 9.7 million to 10.3 million pounds.
01:13:20 9.7 million to 10.3 million pounds. Councelor Fielding Melon also asked that officers outline the list of items that would be lost from the scheme should approval to award the increased budget not be given by cabinet. That was the that's the note of that.
01:13:32 that's the note of that. Um my question was do you remember what your own assessment of the TMO's request for for for that budget increase was? Um yes I I agreed to recommend to my
01:13:45 yes I I agreed to recommend to my colleagues on the council that we increase the budget to 10.3
01:13:52 and we can see the question that you asked which is that this the report needed to explain the increased budget and justify the difference. What was the justification for the difference? So as
01:14:04 justification for the difference? So as I think I say in my one of my witness statements uh it's not written on I remember having a policy board meeting at which Peter
01:14:15 a policy board meeting at which Peter Madison from the TMO came and spoke to us about the need for a new contingency and suggested that uh 600,000 I can't
01:14:28 and suggested that uh 600,000 I can't remember what percent but that's kind of 6% instead of four00,000 I No, but at this meeting he originally the original draft report that came to my policy board asked for an increase
01:14:41 my policy board asked for an increase of 400,000. Yes.
01:14:42 Yes. And at that meeting he explained that £400,000 would probably be okay. But on a project of this complexity a 600,000 contingency i.e. more like 6% would be a
01:14:56 contingency i.e. more like 6% would be a safer
01:14:57 safer option. And therefore, I was asked if I would agree to recommend an increase to 10.3 instead of 10.1. Now, as I've said in my witness statement, I think he was
01:15:11 in my witness statement, I think he was at this meeting, but he's not listed on the attendees, so I can't be sure. Let's just get So, we've got this exactly right. Can we go to your second statement, please? Page four, paragraph
01:15:23 statement, please? Page four, paragraph 11.
01:15:28 you deal with the discussion here. Uh, and you say five lines down. Uh,
01:15:35 Uh, in fact, six, I'm sorry, six lines down. We were told that the TMO had negotiated a tender price of 9.7 million pounds with Ryden, but that would leave the project without any contingency budget and say they were asking for an increase
01:15:46 and say they were asking for an increase in the budget to ensure that there was at least 400,000 contingency for the project.
01:15:51 project. During the discussion, I remember being given the impression that £400,000 was a relatively tight contingency for a project of this scale and complexity and say when it was suggested that a more generous contingency would be £600,000,
01:16:03 generous contingency would be £600,000, bringing the total project budget up to 10.3 million pounds, I agreed that the final report to cabinet should recommend a bigger increase up to that amount. Uh my question was and I think you may
01:16:15 Uh my question was and I think you may have answered it but just let's be clear do you remember who it was who actually suggested the increase in the contingency at that meeting? My memory is it was Peter Madison? Right.
01:16:31 Uh and again when the budget increase went to cabinet for a decision was the decision of cabinet unanimous in approving that budget increase? I believe so. Do you remember whether any member of the cabinet expressed any
01:16:42 any member of the cabinet expressed any opposition to that increase? I do not think so. I can't remember them doing so.
01:16:48 doing so. Now, that was the last budget increase for the project. Um, at the time, do you remember, did you think that that figure was the final number for the Granfield
01:16:59 was the final number for the Granfield Tower project beyond which no more funding would be available come what may or did you think at the time there might be room for further increases if a sound case could be made for it or them?
01:17:10 case could be made for it or them? I I am very confident that had a sound case been made for another increase, cabinet would have approved one.
01:17:20 And I Mr. Chairman, I'm going to turn to a different topic alto together. Well, that might be a good point, might it?
01:17:27 it? Yes. Well, we're going to have a short break now. Mr. Fielding Melon, we'll come back at 25 to 4, please. And once more, please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room. All right. Thanks very much. You
01:17:38 room. All right. Thanks very much. You go to the usher, please.
01:17:49 Right. 25 to four then please.
01:38:10 Yes. Would you ask Mr. Fielding Melon to come in please? Okay.
01:38:25 Right. Mr. Gilly Melon ready to carry on? I am
01:38:27 on? I am good. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Lit. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Fielding Melon, I'm going to ask you some questions about cladding now uh and particularly about a discussion uh that you became involved with in July 2014 between the
01:38:39 involved with in July 2014 between the TMO and the RBKC planning department. Um now you in your first statement you refer to a number of complaints that you'd received around that time from
01:38:50 you'd received around that time from Granfell Tower residents about delays in the project. Yes.
01:38:55 Yes. Correct.
01:38:55 Correct. Yes. Can we go please to RBK43722
01:39:00 and let's go to page 11 in that long uh exhibit or run of emails. This is an email
01:39:10 email uh page 11. This is an email uh uh from
01:39:19 uh Mr. defan to you top of the page dated 28th of June 2013 and there's a bit of a runup to it lower down the page which I don't think I need to show you and if we if I
01:39:31 think I need to show you and if we if I do I will uh and it's has the subject line meeting to discuss Granfell Tower refurbishment delays uh and uh it's it's all about requesting
01:39:42 uh and uh it's it's all about requesting a meeting with Mr. Padet Brown uh and in the second paragraph you can see that Mr. Def says that he imagines that Mr. Connor and he will attend the planned meeting representing the Grenfell action
01:39:53 meeting representing the Grenfell action group. Uh and Mr. Aderu would represent the Grenfell Tower Leaseholders Association and somebody there also for Lancaster West Residents Association. You see that if we go to page seven of
01:40:05 You see that if we go to page seven of this
01:40:07 this um you can see that on the 22nd of July 2013
01:40:12 2013 uh Leslie Coyle writes to Mr. Defon. You see that? Uh, and he offers a meeting um before the end of July 2013. Now, is it right um Leslie Coyle was Mr.
01:40:26 Now, is it right um Leslie Coyle was Mr. Padrick Brown's PA? Yes.
01:40:28 Yes. Yes. Now, do do you remember this cuts a very long story short that the meeting after some twoing and throwing was was put off and set up in the end for 11th of September 2013.
01:40:41 of September 2013. The meeting between Mr. Defon and councelor Patrick Ram rather than the meeting between me and Mr. Defant. yet. Uh, I'm Yeah, I'm I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of Fair. Fair enough. Let's scroll up to
01:40:52 Fair. Fair enough. Let's scroll up to page two.
01:40:58 And on page two, this is an email of the 9th of September. I think we need to go to the bottom of page one to see the first half of the heading which identifies the date.
01:41:09 identifies the date. uh and it goes to Leslie Coyle from Edward Defarn 9th September and uh in it if you go to page two he sets out a number of issues to be discussed and halfway down the
01:41:23 discussed and halfway down the uh
01:41:25 uh well perhaps I should start with the first paragraph just to set the scene he says just to confirm our meeting with the leader of the council on Wednesday 11th September at 3:30 in order to keep the meeting as focused as possible we've restricted the number of local
01:41:36 restricted the number of local stakeholders attending the meeting to Tundi Aaderu from the Lancaster West leaseholders, Christine Richer from Lancaster West Residents Association, and myself from the Grenell Action Group. We would offer to meet with councelor Padet Brown in the RA rooms
01:41:49 councelor Padet Brown in the RA rooms that could be found adjacent to the base of Grenell Tower next to the caretakers office etc. We wish to discuss the following matters and there's a long list uh of those. Uh, and uh, if you go
01:42:00 list uh of those. Uh, and uh, if you go to the third paragraph in, he says, do you see the paragraph that starts, why have the council, he says, why have the council and its scrutiny committee been involved in a cover up by totally ignoring the extreme fire risk and
01:42:12 ignoring the extreme fire risk and danger to residents safety as a result of power surges that occurred in Grenell Tower in May? How can the council stroke TMO justify the decision to deny liability for the destruction of residents electrical appliances and
01:42:24 residents electrical appliances and refuse to pay us compensation? Why are residents being treated like dirt through no fault of their own? And and then uh he goes on at the underneath that to say why the Grenfell
01:42:37 underneath that to say why the Grenfell tower improvement project has been delayed for over one year now and why residents will now have to undergo three years of disruption instead of having all the construction work taking place at one time. How the funding gap will be bridged between the 11 million pound
01:42:48 bridged between the 11 million pound leader have stated that works will cost and the 9.6 um million pounds so far available. a commitment from councelor Padet Brown that he will take a personal interest in this project to make sure
01:42:59 interest in this project to make sure that ongoing delays are resolved. Just on on what I've read to you and there's other there's other material in here. Do do you accept that in fact you were aware from this time at at least
01:43:11 were aware from this time at at least that there was dissatisfaction among the residents of Granfell Tower about the project?
01:43:16 project? Um, I actually don't remember this email, but there are other emails that I do remember and that are in my witness statement from the same time which uh made me aware of their concerns and
01:43:28 made me aware of their concerns and dissatisfaction with how long it was taking.
01:43:29 taking. Yeah. Did Did you understand that there were concerns about what Mr. Defarn describes as quote an extreme fire risk unquote at Granfield Tower? Um, I don't remember being uh told about
01:43:43 Um, I don't remember being uh told about that particular phrase. I do remember the power surges and the worries that they they were a health and safety risk and a fire risk and again in my statement I've gone into that in quite
01:43:54 statement I've gone into that in quite some detail. Yes. Then if we go to page one we can see uh that uh uh Leslie Coyle sends this on I think to Laura Johnson
01:44:06 Laura Johnson uh and you could see that and uh she says dear Laura sometime some while back the leader agreed to meet with Mr. Edward DeFan of the Granfield Tower Action Group and this has been set up for Wednesday, 11th September at 3:30
01:44:19 for Wednesday, 11th September at 3:30 p.m. I believe the leader's initial intention was for a low-key personal meeting out of Goodwill. However, things seem to have escalated and Mr. Defant has sent the email below this morning. Sir Malcolm Riiffken's office have also
01:44:31 Sir Malcolm Riiffken's office have also sent us a selection of of mail from Mr. Defant to their office and asked to be kept informed of the outcome of Wednesday's meeting. I believe a deputy leader is largely dealing with matters relating to Mr. the defan street
01:44:42 relating to Mr. the defan street Grenfell Tower as they fall within his portfolio, but the leader was keen to meet with Mr. Defan himself. In the light of the email below and correspondence from Sir Malcolm's office, the leader has now asked for a briefing note. Would you be kind enough
01:44:54 briefing note. Would you be kind enough to let us have something for him prior to Wednesday? I do apologize for the short notice, but we hadn't previously thought it would be required. If you've produced anything for councelor Fielding Melon on this in the past, that might be of help. And Laura Johnson responds to
01:45:05 of help. And Laura Johnson responds to Leslie Coyle and says, "Leslie, no problem. And this is all very familiar territory and queries that have all been answered before. We shall pull together a brief. Uh my question on this, and I know you didn't see this run of emails,
01:45:17 know you didn't see this run of emails, I mean, we know what's in your statement, but just to be clear, were you aware um that Laura Johnson had sent that request, sent that response? Um, well, I was copied in and I do remember
01:45:30 well, I was copied in and I do remember that I wrote to councelor Patrick Brown with uh my thoughts on some of the issues that were raised. So maybe I had
01:45:43 issues that were raised. So maybe I had seen
01:45:44 seen that email. Yeah. So you'd seen in fact by being copied in as you're right to point out did did you would you have looked at the entirety of the email chain? I I I I I think I would have done and as I say now
01:45:56 think I would have done and as I say now I do remember that I did write to the leader with what I considered important points as a briefing.
01:46:05 briefing. Yes. Did you um did you yourself view Mr. Defant's complaints as what Laura Johnson referred to as familiar territory? Uh they were not familiar to me then
01:46:16 Uh they were not familiar to me then because I'd only been imposed for a few months.
01:46:19 months. I I knew that there were numerous residents of the tower who were worried both about the delays and about the power surges. Let's go to RBK3046008,
01:46:31 Let's go to RBK3046008, please.
01:46:33 please. Now, noting the date of this, the the Laura Johnson email is the 9th of September. What I'm going to show you is an email from Mr. Padet Brown to you of the 27th of September, 2013.
01:46:45 the 27th of September, 2013. So, this is after the meeting. Mhm.
01:46:48 Mhm. Uh a and you can see that it's as you say as I say to you and it's copy to councelor Campbell and the subject is Lancaster West Eddie Defan. Dear Rock, here is a draft letter I propose to send
01:46:59 here is a draft letter I propose to send to Eddie Defan. Grateful for any comments, direct amendments, recomditions regards Nick. I think I replied to that. I'm sorry. I think I replied to it. Yes. Just just should we just look at at
01:47:11 Yes. Just just should we just look at at at this please? Um, and the draft says, "Dear Edward, I was very pleased to come with Barbara Campbell to see you and other residents at Lancaster West on 11th September. My apologies for the delay in replying and please would you
01:47:22 delay in replying and please would you thank your colleague for allowing Barbara and I to visit her flat." I thought it would be helpful to put together a list of the issues which came up and which need to be addressed. We can revisit these when we meet again at the end of November and I will ask Rock
01:47:34 the end of November and I will ask Rock to join us so that we can agree a common agenda and a way forward. And then he sets out a list of issues to consider. uh and there are a large number of them. I'll just highlight um some. Second
01:47:46 I'll just highlight um some. Second bullet point. Do residents want to see a refurbishment or a rebuilding of all or parts of the estate? Is there a perception that the council is trying to get rid of tenants? Why? And then four
01:47:59 get rid of tenants? Why? And then four um three bullet points on is the estate management board any good and will sufficient numbers of residents serve on it to make it work? If EMB is no good, what would be a better way of running the estate? What relationship is
01:48:10 the estate? What relationship is required with the TMO? What caused the power surges? Why not claim against the insurance? When will the work on Granfield Tower start? And then there are also walkabout issues and you can see what those are. Uh,
01:48:23 see what those are. Uh, as I've shown you, Mr. Padet Brown mentions in this draft email that he plans to meet Mr. Defan again at the end of November. Do do you know whether that meeting went ahead? Um, I remember having a meeting with
01:48:36 Um, I remember having a meeting with Councelor Patrick Brown and Mr. Defan and some others at around that time. I I I it may have been this meeting at the end of
01:48:47 been this meeting at the end of November. I can't remember the date. Uh having seen we'll come to your response in a moment, but having seen this this uh draft letter uh were you uh clear or did you have a clear impression
01:49:00 clear or did you have a clear impression perhaps that the Granfell Tower residents or at least those um people that you had met had had real concerns about the issues that um that Mr. Padet Brown had listed in his draft?
01:49:12 Brown had listed in his draft? I knew that there were residents in Grenell Tower who um were concerned about those things. Yes. Yes. And let's go then to RBK3046009, please, which is your response to
01:49:25 please, which is your response to councelor Padet Brown of the same date, 27th September, 2013.
01:49:37 Uh, and uh, you say in the second email down on page one, "Dear Nick, I've made some amendments as follows." Uh but if you scroll down you you you
01:49:49 Uh but if you scroll down you you you can see I think that the amendments are are not particularly substantial. Is that fair? Yes.
01:49:56 Yes. Yes. Uh and and then on page two
01:50:04 uh you say and I'll just show you this at the very bottom of the screen after the NPB. I think this comes back to your text. However, I must admit that many of the questions are the same questions
01:50:15 the questions are the same questions he's been asking for a long time and has received answers to already. For example, we still cannot be 100% sure about what caused the power surges and the reason tenants can't claim against RBKC TMO insurance is because the power
01:50:26 RBKC TMO insurance is because the power surges were not the result of negligence by the TMO but were an accident. So, if people don't have contents insurance, they're not covered. Do we really want to leave that issue open again when our own insurance department has answered these questions before? Similarly, I've
01:50:38 these questions before? Similarly, I've already explained the situation about the Grenfell Talent improvement works and why this is taking so why this is taking this long and I don't think there's much more to add and he goes on
01:50:50 and he goes on uh
01:50:52 uh and uh just on that were you satisfied at the time did you think that the residents of Granfell Tower had really understood and had properly explained to them uh the reasons why uh neither the
01:51:04 them uh the reasons why uh neither the council nor the TMO uh would reimburse for their lost electrical equipment because of the power surges. I had seen fairly extensive
01:51:15 I had seen fairly extensive correspondence sent by
01:51:19 sent by the TMO and indeed I think by the council's insurance department explaining it. I I think there was a note there was a residence meeting. I've
01:51:30 note there was a residence meeting. I've seen a note of a residence meeting between the TMO and residents. I think that was explained. So my my understanding was that the explanation had been given. I understood that there were residents who didn't agree with the
01:51:43 were residents who didn't agree with the explanation but I didn't know what more Nicholas Patrick Brown or I could do about that. And then if you look at the last paragraph on page three top of
01:51:54 last paragraph on page three top of screen it says I would have thought we should keep the discussion focused on the future and about what changes are necessary stroke desirable on the whole Lank West estate. It'd be useful to talk about what's wrong with the estate,
01:52:05 about what's wrong with the estate, what's needed to make it better, what options might be available, what residents would like to see, and maybe a bit of how the estate should be managed. We could also usefully discuss the subject of tenants right to return and any potential decant policies, etc. And
01:52:17 any potential decant policies, etc. And why some can tenants accuse us of social cleansing in close in quotation marks. What do you think? Shall we try slimming down the agenda accordingly or do you want to keep it as it is? Sorry, keep it as is. And then if we look at uh uh
01:52:30 as is. And then if we look at uh uh councelor Padet Brown's response to you at the top of page one 3rd of October 2013
01:52:36 2013 uh he uh
01:52:40 uh he uh uh in the third paragraph there uh says although we can meet with officers I tend to find that such meetings become rather defensive and entrenched.
01:52:51 entrenched. But did you did you understand Mr. Padrick Brown there to be referring to officers of the TMO or officers of RBKC.
01:53:01 Um
01:53:04 I don't know. I actually haven't I I I can't remember what I thought at the time. I'd have to I I would have I would have imagined us
01:53:16 I I would have I would have imagined us having someone like Laura Johnson at that meeting. Right.
01:53:21 Right. Was it your impression that officers of the TMO for example uh were or became defensive and entrenched when these
01:53:32 defensive and entrenched when these matters the subject of Mr. Defan's email for example? I I don't my my interpretation of what councelor Patrick Bram wrote there is that the meeting becomes rather
01:53:44 that the meeting becomes rather defensive and entrenched rather than one particular group of attendees. So I don't think he was talking just about the officers becoming defensive entrenched. I think he was saying I I think he was expressing a hope that by
01:53:56 think he was expressing a hope that by just being members with residents we might get over some of the um issues and hurdles that kind of when we've left it
01:54:07 hurdles that kind of when we've left it to housing officers TMO and residents they both just dig in. Yes. Uh yeah just two things to add to the record then before we move before we move on. First, you refer to the minutes
01:54:18 move on. First, you refer to the minutes of the residents meeting with the TMO about the power surges. You may recall that was mid August, 15th of August, 2013.
01:54:27 2013. Do you have a I I would that be about right? That that sounds right. Yeah. The reference to that is TMO1049930.
01:54:36 Uh and um in it's correct, isn't it, that in fact your draft of Mr. Padrick Brown's letter went to Mr. Defan in exactly the same terms as the suggested
01:54:48 exactly the same terms as the suggested response with your amendments. Are you aware of that? Uh I I can't say I am but it's a matter of record. I I'm sure that's right. And the record um the record is ME3042240.
01:55:01 Uh now let's go please to RBK 403381.
01:55:06 403381. This takes us into June 2014 and it's an email exchange between you and Tundi Aaderu on behalf of the Granfell Tower Lease Helders Association. Uh and you
01:55:17 Lease Helders Association. Uh and you can see uh that on page one is your response to uh him um copying in the same number of copyes uh that he had
01:55:28 same number of copyes uh that he had copied.
01:55:30 copied. Uh uh and if you uh go please to page two and and the start of his email
01:55:42 uh you can see uh that uh there
01:55:51 uh there uh he was referring to comments made by the local council of Judith Blakeman.
01:55:57 Uh and he says in the third line, you made a commitment to me as vice chairman of the Grenell Tower leaseolders association that the
01:56:08 Tower leaseolders association that the work would begin early 2014. This was witnessed by councelor Judith Blakeman, ward counselor Edward Defan, Grenell Action Group, Laura Johnson, RBKC, Peter Madison, TMO, and Christine Richer LW.
01:56:20 Madison, TMO, and Christine Richer LW. Now we are in June 2014 and there is no sign of any improvement work whatsoever at Grenfield Tower apart from some sign board of Ryden here and there. Do you remember making this promise to Mr.
01:56:31 remember making this promise to Mr. Aderu?
01:56:32 Aderu? I am fairly certain that I did not make a promise as to exactly when the works would commence. I was very conscious of not giving a firm date and my
01:56:45 not giving a firm date and my recollection is that there were also minutes of that meeting in July 2013 produced by Laura Johnson which I think I exhibit in my uh witness statement.
01:56:56 uh witness statement. Did did you share the resident's frustration that work on the Granville Tower refurbishment had not yet commenced? I understood their frustration and was keen to try and um
01:57:08 frustration and was keen to try and um do what I can could to uh to expedite things and get it going at least help them understand uh why it was taking that long.
01:57:19 that long. If we go to your response on page one please, you say towards the foot of page one, "Dear Tundday, I write to you in response to your email dated 8th June 2014."
01:57:30 Uh a and then uh you explain in the longish paragraph at the bottom of that page uh that in the fourth line has previously been explained to you. It became apparent during negotiations with
01:57:41 became apparent during negotiations with the cult contractor that this would not be possible. A decision was then made to appoint a separate contractor for Grrenfell Tower through a separate competitive tendering process to ensure value for money and to maximize the benefits from to the block from the
01:57:53 benefits from to the block from the cabinet approved budget. In all previous meetings and discussions with you, I've made sure not to give firm commitments as to when works would start or finish, but have instead told you when we hope to start on site, as I've known and
01:58:04 to start on site, as I've known and explained to you, uh that in such a large and complex scheme, there are always a number of variables beyond our control. And then you say uh that whilst there doesn't appear to
01:58:15 uh that whilst there doesn't appear to have been much happening on the ground, there has been a lot of activity taking place behind the scenes to get ready to start on site this month. Rydens are currently carrying out preparatory activities including finalizing materials and other planning conditions
01:58:26 materials and other planning conditions with LBKC's planners. Um I've shown you a lot of that for a very short question. Were you confident at this stage or as confident as you could be that work was
01:58:37 confident as you could be that work was going to start in June 2014? Um, my recollection is that I had asked Laura Johnson to draft a response to Tundai's email and I think this is a
01:58:48 Tundai's email and I think this is a draft which she prepared and I read and was happy with and then sent and I I believed what I was being told which
01:58:59 I believed what I was being told which is um that work was due to start soon. Now you arranged then I think to visit the site at Granfell Tower the following month 15th of July 2014 you remember?
01:59:10 month 15th of July 2014 you remember? Yes.
01:59:11 Yes. You you deal with that at paragraph 14 of your second statement. We can look at that if you like. It's a paragraph 14 on page six. Let's go let's go to that. Second statement paragraph 14 page six.
01:59:25 Second statement paragraph 14 page six. Uh and uh you say uh there in the second line, I met with Peter Madison and Cla Williams from the TMO and Bruce Stones from Studio E on the morning of 15th July 2014 at Grenful Tower to discuss the outstanding planning issues and to
01:59:37 the outstanding planning issues and to view samples of the cladding. The TMO then met with Sarah Scandal from RBKC planning on the morning of the 17th July, but I was unable to attend. As far as I can recall, the meeting on 15th July 2014 was the only meeting I
01:59:50 July 2014 was the only meeting I attended that arose from the email exchanges I had about the cladding at the time. So that's what you say. Do you remember what the purpose of the meeting was?
02:00:00 was? It was to do with this issue of the color of the cladding and the fixing method of the cladding which were the two issues that I had been told were
02:00:12 two issues that I had been told were still in disagreement with the planning officers and was one of the main causes uh of the ongoing delay.
02:00:23 uh of the ongoing delay. Right.
02:00:25 Right. So you went to the meeting in order to try to help resolve those issues, did you? To understand and see if I can try and help a resolution. Yes.
02:00:36 help a resolution. Yes. How would the two issues have identified are the fixing method? So face fix as opposed to to cassette. Yes. Yes.
02:00:46 Yes. And color. And color. And the color choices at that stage were champagne. There was a champagne color which the planner preferred. There was I think a brushed aluminum and there was
02:00:59 think a brushed aluminum and there was what I referred to as a kind of battleship gray. I think there had been earlier uh a more describe adventurous or bold uh color
02:01:11 describe adventurous or bold uh color combinations put forward by the architects originally which I had been told residents were not keen on. Um, and so at that stage, yes, I believe it was the more muted options of brushed
02:01:23 the more muted options of brushed aluminium, champagne, or battleship gray. Now, you say you were there to see if I you could try and help a resolution. What What How would you do that?
02:01:34 What What How would you do that? What would you bring to the meeting which would assist in a resolution of those two? I I could raise the concerns I had about the delay this was causing with uh
02:01:45 the delay this was causing with uh Jonathan Boore, the executive director of planning. Was it your understanding that the choice of fixing and the choice of color were either each or together creating or causing a delay?
02:01:57 creating or causing a delay? It was the the the inability to get planning to sign off on those conditions as part of the planning process which
02:02:08 as part of the planning process which meant that the TMO/Ryden could not commence work. That was my understanding. and you say you could raise the concerns you had about the delay with Jonathan Bore. How would that
02:02:20 delay with Jonathan Bore. How would that uh how would that assist in the resolution of the specific questions that had to be decided by planning? because um I didn't know whether this
02:02:31 because um I didn't know whether this was uh something which a relatively junior case officer in the planning department was just sticking her heels in about about her preference of a color um without realizing the importance of
02:02:44 um without realizing the importance of uh this project overall and I wanted to make sure that the director of planning understood uh the importance of this project and to help I see I think I see I think I'm getting
02:02:55 I see I think I see I think I'm getting a so her is Sarah Scan That's what I was told. Yes. So you were there as it were to exercise a bit of is this is it would this be fair a bit of cabinet member influence.
02:03:09 So um the planning department took their um their independence very
02:03:17 very um seriously indeed. Um but at the same time it was their responsibility to consult uh widely on these decisions and as a cabinet member responsible for
02:03:29 as a cabinet member responsible for housing and on a project which was a very very major strategic investment for the HR which is going to infect affect uh
02:03:40 uh 120 odd households. Um I wanted him to know that uh as a key stakeholder the housing department was keen to get this resolved.
02:03:52 this resolved. Well this is a decision about
02:03:56 appearances. That's what planning planning's function as I understand it is primarily around the uses of buildings and the appearance
02:04:07 the uses of buildings and the appearance of buildings. Yes. So indeed absolutely and you
02:04:17 you were there is this right to perhaps use your influence as a cabinet member to reinforce to those involved in making decisions about appearances in respect of this project.
02:04:31 in respect of this project. I was I considered myself uh representative of a key stakeholder in this process and I wanted to make sure that there were senior officers in planning who understood the import of uh
02:04:44 planning who understood the import of uh the whole scheme of things in the pressure that the council was under the TMA was under from residents to get these improvement works started. Had you gained the impression that something had
02:04:56 gained the impression that something had gone wrong with the process which had led to the delay? I wouldn't say it was necessarily something going wrong. Um but I didn't I
02:05:08 something going wrong. Um but I didn't I personally didn't feel that the choice of color between champagne or battleship gray was a very good reason for the planning department
02:05:19 good reason for the planning department to be delaying this project. Right. And I wanted the executive director to know that's what I thought. I follow. Were you shown any samples of the cladding materials at that meeting?
02:05:31 the cladding materials at that meeting? I think I was. Do you remember what or which cladding materials were you were shown? I I don't I presume I was shown the different colors. Were you Do you remember whether all the
02:05:43 Were you Do you remember whether all the samples that you were shown, as far as you can recall, were ACM? I do not know that. Had you heard of ACM? the as I said in my witness statement that the the only
02:05:56 my witness statement that the the only reference that I ever received was in one email from Peter Madison as a passing comment uh which was talking about the possibility of replacing zinc
02:06:09 about the possibility of replacing zinc with aluminium. Um, I actually at the time didn't register that because to me I didn't know the difference between aluminium or zinc. Didn't mean much to
02:06:21 aluminium or zinc. Didn't mean much to me. I don't remember registering it or responding to that particular comment but I have noted that after the event after the fire did you express any particular preference for any particular fixing as
02:06:33 preference for any particular fixing as namely rivet or as they call it face fix perhaps uh as against cassette? Again, I think as I've I I think what I said was
02:06:44 think as I've I I think what I said was if the planners prefer um was it the cassette fixing that they preferred, I think, rather than the face fixing, they thought it would look better. Um and that was one of the
02:06:55 better. Um and that was one of the reasons for a holdup. I asked whether there was the budget already included for that. Peter Madison said yes, it was. I was like, well, if we've got the budget and that's what the planners want and they say it will look better, why
02:07:07 and they say it will look better, why not go with that? that do you remember that discussion do? I've seen the emails. Do you remember that discussion in answer to my question? Well,
02:07:15 Well, I I I I've seen the emails. I remember it now because I've read the emails. Did anybody express any concerns about fire safety in in respect of the choice of cladding? I was it was never raised to me that
02:07:27 I was it was never raised to me that there was any question of fire safety in this discussion. Yeah. And let's look at some emails from the times and these may not be the ones you are referring to. RBK435000.
02:07:39 This is a further exchange between you and Mr. Madison, Peter Madison from the 15th of July 2014.
02:07:49 Uh, you produced this at RM RFM1 16. And in this email exchange, you ask for the name of the planning officer, and Mr. Madison tells you it's Sarah Scanel, and he gives you her email address. Uh, and
02:08:03 he gives you her email address. Uh, and that's where we end up at the top of page one. Um, do you remember sending this email the on the screen? I'm so sorry. On the screen, it's at the foot of page one or
02:08:15 screen, it's at the foot of page one or second half.
02:08:19 Um, uh, do you remember sending this email uh after the meeting? The one where I say, "Dear Mr. Madison, I'm meeting Mr. B." Yes. The one on the screen. Yeah, I mean
02:08:30 Yes. The one on the screen. Yeah, I mean I I only remember it because I have read this recently. I see. Do you remember speaking to Miss Scandal in person on the 15th of July 2014 about the refurbishment project?
02:08:41 2014 about the refurbishment project? I don't think I did speak to Miss Scanel. I don't remember speaking to Miss Scan. Did you speak to Mr. Boore, Jonathan Boore at all? I had an email exchange with Mr. Boore
02:08:54 I had an email exchange with Mr. Boore um
02:08:55 um about this. I don't remember actually speaking to him about it. Yes, we'll come to those uh emails shortly. And before we do, let's just
02:09:06 shortly. And before we do, let's just try and stick with the 15th of July 2014. Um because it says here, you see, I'm meeting Mr. Bore on other matters this afternoon. My question is, well, first of all, did you meet Jonathan Bore
02:09:17 first of all, did you meet Jonathan Bore that afternoon? I I don't remember. I think I remember the other issues from other emails I've seen. There was a a planning application in my ward um for a scheme called Duke's
02:09:29 in my ward um for a scheme called Duke's Lodge which was contentious because the developer was trying to get away without making any affordable housing contributions and I was upset about that and wanted to speak to him about the
02:09:43 and wanted to speak to him about the council's approach to um testing the developers viability appraisal. I can't remember whether I did speak to him meet him then. I have seen emails going
02:09:54 him then. I have seen emails going backwards and forwards. Yes, there are emails. My my question is do do you remember meeting him on the I don't remember. Thank you. Um were you trying to intercede with Mr. Bore with the planning department to
02:10:06 Bore with the planning department to encourage them to make their decision on the cladding swiftly so as to speed things up?
02:10:14 I I was trying to encourage uh Mr. board to understand the importance of trying to resolve these outstanding planning issues more quickly rather than less
02:10:26 issues more quickly rather than less quickly.
02:10:26 quickly. Yes. Now, uh sticking with the 15th of July, 2014, can we go to RBK303412?
02:10:34 This is an email that you received from Bruce S on that day. He's the architect at Studio E. You produce this at RFM 17. Uh and in this email you can see that he
02:10:45 Uh and in this email you can see that he sends you a link to an album of pictures of a housing project in Kilburn as you can see in the middle of the email picaza web album. Uh where cladding cassettes were used uh
02:10:57 Uh where cladding cassettes were used uh and that that is the point he makes at the beginning. He says further to our site visit this morning please see link to an album of pictures of the Kilbing housing project we mentioned. It uses the same brushed aluminium material and
02:11:09 the same brushed aluminium material and finish proposed for Grrenful Tower, but folded into cladding cassettes which conceal almost all fixings. I remember there's a um something about color. Um did you discuss cladding
02:11:20 color. Um did you discuss cladding cassettes with Bruce Zones during your site visit on the 15th of July 2014? I cannot remember. He might if there were samples of the different fixing
02:11:31 were samples of the different fixing methods on site as well, I imagine he would have shown me, but I don't remember. I'm afraid. Was there any discussion, any questions asked about uh anything to do with the
02:11:42 asked about uh anything to do with the cladding other than how it looked? The how it looked and there was the issue of the potential budgetary saving.
02:11:53 issue of the potential budgetary saving. The reason that the TMA was interested in the fixing in the conversation that I had with them was because there was a potential saving to be made by going with the face fixing method rather than
02:12:04 with the face fixing method rather than the cassette fixing method. Very well. So, so how it looked and how much the choices were. Yes.
02:12:10 Yes. Right.
02:12:12 Right. Did you ask about or discuss the history of the specification for the cladding material such as who had specified this material and what it actually was? When
02:12:23 material and what it actually was? When I say this material, I mean the iconic Reno bond PE55 ACM panels. No, I did not at that stage know. No,
02:12:35 No, I did not at that stage know. No, no. And and in fact, I think it's right just to look ahead of the few days. You learned about the choice I think between zinc and aluminium from Peter Madison a few days after this meeting. We we'll
02:12:46 few days after this meeting. We we'll come back to that. Um so at this stage 15th of July you had no clue is this right that the proposal for the raincreen material for Grrenfell Tower
02:12:57 raincreen material for Grrenfell Tower had begun life as a zinc panel with a honeycomb a metal honeycomb core and then had become substituted for ACM with a polyethylene core. No I did not.
02:13:09 No I did not. Did you notice at the time of this site visit that the panels you were being shown had a thin black plastic core to them? No.
02:13:19 them? No. Uh, now at the end of Bruce Sains's email, we can see still on the screen that he refers to a second site visit. He says, "As discussed, we will see you
02:13:30 He says, "As discussed, we will see you again on site on this Thursday, 17th July at 8:45 a.m. with a view to meeting the planning officer." Now, you say in your second statement, and I I don't think I need to take you to it unless
02:13:41 think I need to take you to it unless you want to see it, page six, paragraph 14, that you didn't attend on that date. Uh but can we look then please at uh TMO856720.
02:13:58 This is an email which you won't have or didn't wouldn't have seen at the time from Clare Williams of the TMO to to Twein Lim at
02:14:09 Williams of the TMO to to Twein Lim at Artellia
02:14:11 Artellia copied to Ryen Zack Maynard Grrenfell cladding costs. Hi Titan, this is just an urgent nudge email. I've been reminded that we need good costs for councelor Fielding Melon and the planner
02:14:22 councelor Fielding Melon and the planner tomorrow at 8:45 a.m. We discussed one fully cassette fixed cladding columns and panels fully face fixed cladding ditto hybrid version i.e cassette fixed
02:14:34 ditto hybrid version i.e cassette fixed columns face fix panels apart from the lower four floors which will be cassette fixed. Please let me have something before.
02:14:41 before. Um,
02:14:43 Um, now I know you didn't receive this or copied in on this email at the time, but do can you explain why Claire Williams was seeking quotes specifically for you?
02:14:55 specifically for you? Um,
02:14:57 Um, I I I can't really I can only hazard a guess. um which would be based on what we discussed um earlier which is uh if
02:15:10 we discussed um earlier which is uh if they were going to be talking to me about uh
02:15:15 about uh budget issues I would normally ask questions about that and so I imagine what she's meaning is she wants to be able to give uh a clear answer if I was to ask questions
02:15:26 I was to ask questions the good costs was that an expression that you either used or heard at that meeting.
02:15:33 meeting. I've I never heard or used that expression until after the fire when this email was widely published. Now, you you explained earlier that um the question of the budget had come up
02:15:44 the question of the budget had come up at the meeting as well as appearances. Uh was the the cost of the planning material something that the that the planning department would be interested
02:15:56 planning department would be interested in or something that you and the cabinet would be interested in? Uh neither. It was something that the TMO was
02:16:07 was something that the TMO was interested in. Um as is clear in the emails that Peter Madison makes clear, I was interested in the reason for the delay. One of the
02:16:18 the reason for the delay. One of the issues was the fixing methodology. Um one was the color. The color had nothing to do with cost. the fixing methodology. The planners liked the appearance of the fully cassette fixed
02:16:31 appearance of the fully cassette fixed cladding. That was the most expensive option. My understanding was the reason why the TMO were not just agreeing to that was because they were hoping to make a saving in the fixing methodology.
02:16:46 make a saving in the fixing methodology. I see.
02:16:49 So is is this right that to your way of understanding you that is RBKC were agnostic about the cost because the budget had already been set. Uh but you
02:17:02 budget had already been set. Uh but you understood that the TMO wanted for their own budgetary reasons for you to as it were push for the cheaper version says to keep it within their budget. I don't think they were
02:17:13 their budget. I don't think they were asking me to push for the cheaper version and indeed in the emails it's clear that I wasn't doing that. So what was the relevance then of the any discussion about budget at the
02:17:24 any discussion about budget at the meeting? I think they were just explaining to me why they were seeking an option, a methodology, a fixing methodology which the rather than just
02:17:36 methodology which the rather than just saying yes to the planners which would help get the process through quickly which was my main concern.
02:17:44 concern. They were explaining what the problem was. And there's one email from Peter Madison where he says they were hoping to negotiate with the planners by offering up the champagne color in the
02:17:55 offering up the champagne color in the hope that they could use the hybrid or the cheaper fixing methodology. So that's it was that was their point and they were explaining to me
02:18:07 and they were explaining to me that reasoning. I see.
02:18:13 My concern was program because that was the resident's concern. Your concern was program you say because that was the resident's concern. Was your concern not also uh
02:18:27 your concern not also uh color?
02:18:29 color? I think it's clear from the emails that I say at the end of that long email chain,
02:18:37 chain, just choose whatever color. We need to get cracking. Do you remember why you didn't attend the 17th of July meeting? I think I had wanted to attend and I had
02:18:49 I think I had wanted to attend and I had asked for it be brought forward to 8:45 so I could attend briefly but I had another meeting at 9:30 in the town hall and uh my understanding is that Sarah Scan could not meet at 8:45.
02:19:01 Scan could not meet at 8:45. Yes. And we can see that from the document I'm going to show you. If we go to RBK uh 403732, this is your RFM19. This is the email that you sent to Jonathan Boore on the 16th of July, the
02:19:13 Jonathan Boore on the 16th of July, the next day. Do you say this, dear Mr. Bore?
02:19:18 Bore? Uh,
02:19:21 Uh, I I I I met with TMO and architects to look at cladding samples for Granville Tower the other day. I'd hope that they'd be able to bring forward the meeting tomorrow morning with Sarah Scandal to 8:45 a.m. so that I could join them on site and her thoughts
02:19:33 join them on site and her thoughts before getting to my policy board meetings, but sadly she's unable to get to site before 9:30 a.m. As you know, this project is already behind schedule and it's important that we finalize the choice of materials ASAP. I think there
02:19:44 choice of materials ASAP. I think there are a couple of samples that would be more than adequate and I think it's important that planning are constructive in helping the TMAO get to the right choice. So I hope Miss Scandal will assist in that process. The TMO will be updating me on their meeting tomorrow
02:19:55 updating me on their meeting tomorrow and I hope we'll then be able to move forward. Um were you hoping that your intervention in emailing Mr. Bore would expedite the planning application? I think I've already said that.
02:20:07 I think I've already said that. Yes. And does that is that evidence you gave earlier reflected in this email, Mr. Fielding Melon?
02:20:16 Um I think yes. Yeah.
02:20:21 Yeah. And uh when you say uh in the second line of the second sentence I think there are a couple of samples that will be more than adequate. What did you mean by more than adequate?
02:20:34 by more than adequate? I was talking about the colors which should be satisfactory and I didn't think the choice of colors in the samples that were there were a
02:20:45 in the samples that were there were a reason for delaying the approval of that condition so that the project could be progressed. I see. So sorry to say so I understand what you mean. Are you saying that you don't need more than a couple to get to
02:20:56 don't need more than a couple to get to your choice quickly please? Rather than looking lot at lots of different colors. I think I'm I think I meant I thought either the brushed aluminium or the battleship gray which were two of the
02:21:09 battleship gray which were two of the samples on site right were adequate. Now
02:21:15 Now I'm going to come back to
02:21:20 to in fact I'll deal with it now rather take it slightly out of order. Can I um then take you to an email two days later uh at RBK43682.
02:21:33 This is your exhibit RFM22. Uh and uh this is an email from you to Bruce Zones on the 18th of July. uh and and uh it's at the foot of the
02:21:45 uh and and uh it's at the foot of the page o over onto page two and it responds to his email to you of the 15th of July in which he'd sent you the Kilburn photograph album and you say at the bottom of page one, "Dear Bruce,
02:21:57 at the bottom of page one, "Dear Bruce, thank you for sending through those photos. I can now appreciate the look that you're going for. What was the upshot from the meeting with the planner yesterday morning? That was the one you couldn't go to, as you said." And then
02:22:08 couldn't go to, as you said." And then you say, "I'm still not 100% sure that I prefer the brushed aluminium to the battleship gray painted option, but that is very subjective and I'm quite relaxed about the choice in the end." Is is that
02:22:19 about the choice in the end." Is is that what you were referring to a few minutes ago when you said at the end of an email there's something that says you didn't mind? I'm paraphrasing your oral evidence. I I can't remember exactly, but it makes
02:22:30 I can't remember exactly, but it makes sense.
02:22:30 sense. Right.
02:22:35 Uh,
02:22:39 right. I see. So, but is this is this fair? At the top of page two that we're looking at here, um, when you say you prefer the brushed aluminium to the battleship gray painted option, you No, I'm not 100% sure I prefer the My
02:22:51 No, I'm not 100% sure I prefer the My recollection is that the brushed aluminium was the architect's preference. Now, I'm saying I'm still not 100% sure that I prefer the brushed aluminium to the battleship gray.
02:23:04 the battleship gray. Yes. Uh is it fair to say that in making that remark uh you were providing your own personal um subjective subjective view? Yes. Which I say in my witness
02:23:15 Yes. Which I say in my witness statement. Yes. Why was it necessary to do that? It wasn't necessary. Why did you do it? uh as I say in my witness statement because this was uh a subjective
02:23:29 because this was uh a subjective uh judgment call where I would say my view was as valid as anyone else's. I was willing to profer my view.
02:23:43 At page one,
02:23:49 uh, we see an email from Peter Madison, who is of course copied in on the email that you sent to Mr. S. And you say, he says to you, "Dear
02:24:01 And you say, he says to you, "Dear councelor Fielding Melon, the feedback I've received from the site visit is that the planners were not sure about the brushed aluminium finish and were indicating a preference for the champagne finish. They also prefer the
02:24:12 champagne finish. They also prefer the cassette fixed approach over the face fixing.
02:24:16 fixing. We've looked at the costs and I and think that face fixing would save around £80,000. The hybrid of face fixing above level four would save around £40,000.
02:24:27 level four would save around £40,000. I'd expected the cost difference to be greater. We've budgeted for the cassette fixing. So this matter is not critical to the delivery of the scheme. However, any savings would be a benefit in terms
02:24:38 any savings would be a benefit in terms of value for money and risk management of the budget. Uh
02:24:46 Uh why do you know why Peter Madison was providing information to you about the cost of the cladding?
02:24:57 I I think I've already explained why I think he was. Oh, well, we'll read your transcript then and look at that. Um it you you respond and you say, "I really
02:25:09 you you respond and you say, "I really didn't like the champagne. Let me know if I need to speak to planners." Um why why did you say that? Because the champagne was personally the
02:25:21 Because the champagne was personally the least uh the one I like least out of the the more muted options that I had been shown.
02:25:27 shown. Why was that relevant? Because we were talking about colors. Yes. Why was your personal view about what what color you preferred relevant?
02:25:39 what what color you preferred relevant? It wasn't the most relevant. Why did you say this? Because we had been having a discussion about colors.
02:25:48 Why didn't you ask any questions about other properties of the cladding apart from color? Because the issue at hand which was causing delay was a disagreement over
02:26:00 causing delay was a disagreement over the color of the cladding. So it looks from this that you're you're bringing your not only your influence but your personal tastes to bear in the discussion. Would that be fair?
02:26:12 discussion. Would that be fair? Um it does look like I was expressing my personal tastes and I I was but I think if you look at later emails it is clear that I do not try to impose my personal
02:26:25 that I do not try to impose my personal taste and I say the most important thing is to make progress. H when you said uh I really didn't like the champagne. Let me know if I need to speak to planners.
02:26:37 me know if I need to speak to planners. Speak to planners about about what? About if they were going to insist on it being champagne colored and carry on causing a delay. My my
02:26:49 and carry on causing a delay. My my recollection is that the preference of the architect and the team was also not the champagne color. Now,
02:26:57 Now, and there is a chain of emails which I'm sure you've seen between me and Mr. Bore where I do get maybe slightly shy about the question of whether Miss Scandal's personal
02:27:09 whether Miss Scandal's personal preference overrides and is justified in causing a delay. Yes. And I was hoping to get to those uh in the next few minutes. Uh let let's let's there's a prior email I want to
02:27:20 let's there's a prior email I want to show you before we do and we may not get to until tomorrow morning. And sticking with the 18th of July 2014, uh RBK403632,
02:27:33 this uh responds to Peter Madison's concern about costs. Uh and you ask him
02:27:46 the question, does that mean we can afford to do cassette fixings for the whole building? Is that within existing budget without having to dip into contingency? If so,
02:27:57 having to dip into contingency? If so, then we should proceed with that as it will look better. I think we should stick with brushed aluminium or battleship gray, not champagne exclamation mark, but offer the planners
02:28:08 exclamation mark, but offer the planners cassette fixings. What do you think? RFM.
02:28:12 RFM. Again, was this preference based on anything other than your personal tastes?
02:28:18 tastes? It was my personal taste and from my recollection also the aesthetic judgment of the architect.
02:28:29 Yes. I mean if you were interested in unblocking the deadlock which had held the project up in response to residents concerns about the delay, why why were you expressing your own preferences
02:28:40 you expressing your own preferences about the look of the cladding? Why were they relevant at all?
02:28:52 We were talking about colors and choices of colors. I happen to agree more with the project architect's choice than with the planning officer's choice.
02:29:04 the planning officer's choice. And I thought it was not right for the planners to be holding up the scheme based on one planning officer's choice. But as I've said, I go on to say, let's
02:29:17 But as I've said, I go on to say, let's just get cracking. Yes, Mr. Chairman, can I just show you one more email on this because it bears exactly on the answer we've just had. Yes. Very well. Just one then. Well, all right. I mean, I'm happy to
02:29:28 Well, all right. I mean, I'm happy to stop now and we can hold it in if it's if it's closely related to the questions you've been asking. I show it. It it it is. Can we go to RBK 3033430?
02:29:39 It it it is. Can we go to RBK 3033430? This is your exhibit RFM27. So, it's attached to your your witness statement. Uh, and it's a continuation of your conversation with Mr. Boore over the course of the that day, 18th July,
02:29:50 the course of the that day, 18th July, 2014. And at the bottom of page one, um, Mr. Bore says to you, "Dear counselor Fielding Melon, if the project architects have chosen well, then no doubt Miss Scandal will be satisfied. If
02:30:01 doubt Miss Scandal will be satisfied. If not, we will be asking for better." What did you take from that rather cryptic response to your message to him? I've I found it
02:30:11 found it um not very helpful.
02:30:16 Well, indeed. And I'd agree with you on its face. What did you actually understand by it? That he that um it sounded like he was going to carry on letting Miss Scanel
02:30:27 going to carry on letting Miss Scanel decide whether or not this project can go ahead based on her personal subjective view of the color choice. Was it normal for councilors or even cabinet members to approach the planning office
02:30:38 members to approach the planning office in this way? The cabinet the planning officers approached by um yes by by residents by counselors by cabinet me everyone had a view
02:30:49 had a view right
02:30:49 right about planning issues. Now you you respond to Mr. Paul's email and it's in the same document. In fact, if you look above on the screen, you say this. Is Miss Scandal satisfied? If she is the great arbiter of what is good
02:31:00 is the great arbiter of what is good choice, I would like to know her opinion. And I would like to speak to you about Duke's Lodge, please. Now, ignoring Duke's Lodge, uh, when you say, "Is Miss Scandal satisfied? If she's the great arbiter of what is good choice,
02:31:11 great arbiter of what is good choice, I'd like to know her opinion." What did you mean?
02:31:15 you mean? Just that. Well, you thought she had poor taste in cladding colors. No, that's not what I said. I said uh I was I was implying are you really going to say that she alone is
02:31:27 really going to say that she alone is the person who is qualified to decide this?
02:31:32 this? What did you mean by I would like to know her opinion. What was that about?
02:31:39 I would like to know, I suppose, why I can't remember whether at this stage I knew that she preferred champagne or if so what her opinion was, what the problem was or if I knew why it was
02:31:50 problem was or if I knew why it was champagne, why she's so certain that champagne is better than the architect's preference. And is it fair to say this is just a this is a battle between two subjective views about what look nice? Uh
02:32:03 views about what look nice? Uh [Music]
02:32:04 [Music] yes and I suppose there's a slight uh point of principle which is um whether this individual junior planning officer um should be able to hold up
02:32:18 officer um should be able to hold up such an important project because of her subjective aesthetic judgment. I follow as opposed to yours as opposed to the project architects. Right, Mr. Chairman, we're not quite finished this line, but it's
02:32:30 finished this line, but it's Well, I think we've reached a convenient point.
02:32:32 point. I think we have. Yes,
02:32:33 Yes, we've reached a moment anyway. Yes, we're going to break that this point building melon. Um, I'm going to have to ask you to come back again tomorrow for some more questions, I'm afraid. But I think you were expecting that, weren't you? I was.
02:32:44 I was. Well, that's something. Mr. Millet, can you give Mr. Fielding any idea of how long you might wish to be with him? Yes.
02:32:54 Yes. Um, until about noon, probably. Right. So, you could hope to get away by lunchtime perhaps. I I think that's a fair reasonable I just But I mean, all witnesses like to know really they can make other
02:33:05 know really they can make other arrangements for the later part of the day.
02:33:08 day. Yes. And he he's he was scheduled to be until then and I see no reason why that would
02:33:12 would No, no, that's fine. Good. Thank you. Well, there we are. Um, please remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it uh o overnight. Okay. And we'll see you at 10:00 tomorrow,
02:33:23 And we'll see you at 10:00 tomorrow, please. So, thank you. Thank you. Like to go to the usher.
02:33:31 [Music]
02:33:35 Thank you very much. 10:00 tomorrow then, please.