Amanda Johnson and Rock Fielding-Mellen give evidence on RBKC's oversight of the TMO. Johnson admits failures in monitoring fire safety and TMO compliance. Fielding-Mellen reveals he had no training in health/safety or social housing and wasn't aware of critical 2009 investigation report.
00:00:22 [Music]
00:00:27 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing i'm very pleased to say that with effect from today we're able to welcome back a limited number of members of the public to observe the proceedings
00:00:40 of the public to observe the proceedings which is a very welcome development i hope that as time goes on it won't be very long before we can welcome a larger number but for the time being we have to limit numbers until we see how matters develop
00:00:53 numbers until we see how matters develop with the pandemic but it's a good development for us and i hope for them to be able to come see and hear
00:01:00 hear what's going on today we're going to continue hearing evidence from amanda johnson so i'd ask please for mr johnson to be brought in
00:01:23 good good morning mrs johnson good morning uh ready to carry on with the question yes good thank you very much yes mr kenner thanks sir uh good morning ms johnson um last thursday we were discussing the
00:01:34 um last thursday we were discussing the various provisions in the mma that dealt with the management of projects and i took you to an email chain between you celia chaliskan and jane trethewey from the 17th of july 2012.
00:01:46 the 17th of july 2012. and in that correspondence you raised a concern about whether the mma covered such projects as grenfell and was its sufficiency for those purposes now i asked you a question as to why you
00:01:58 now i asked you a question as to why you had those concerns and you applied in this way and it can be found at day 130
00:02:03 130 page 164 lines 12-23 it might not have been the mma in retrospect it might have been the schedules which set out the operational procedures so we didn't have one around resident
00:02:15 so we didn't have one around resident engagement site in terms of comms on major works and also we didn't have whilst we delegated all the capital program management to the tmo we didn't have a specific reporting mechanism in the schedules
00:02:26 reporting mechanism in the schedules so i think it was a mixture of the schedules needed to be updated as well as looking at the mma itself now could we go back to look at the 2006
00:02:34 the 2006 mma which can be found at rbk treble zero
00:02:39 zero one nine double zero six forward slash one six three
00:02:48 now as you can see this is in volume 2 chapter 2 and as schedule 3 of the mma and is entitled principles for management of major work schemes first of all are you familiar with that
00:03:00 first of all are you familiar with that schedule yes now if we can go to paragraph 2.1 which can be found at page 165 which is internal page 34.
00:03:14 we can see there that it provides for the
00:03:18 the setting up of a client review group and its role
00:03:21 its role is defined some six lines down in the sentence that starts the role of this group
00:03:27 group and it says this and i quote the role of this group will be to act as client for the project review progress in implementing the scheme and focus on those issues which directly concern residents where it is decided not to establish a
00:03:39 where it is decided not to establish a client review group the residents association will be asked to nominate a representative to join the project team were you aware of that provision at the time i cannot recall that
00:03:51 time i cannot recall that can we now turn to page 167 and paragraph 5.2 now that provides that the residents association will be involved in the
00:04:02 association will be involved in the selection of consultants including architects were you aware of that provision yes
00:04:13 and what steps did you take to ensure that the requirements of that provision were satisfied i believe that there was a resident involved in the initial procurement um i i believe that that did happen
00:04:30 did you check to see whether there had been resident engagement and involvement in the selection of um all the consultants and specialists involved in the project at that time i wasn't responsible for
00:04:42 at that time i wasn't responsible for that part of the work that was dealt with by the regeneration team
00:04:48 team so i wasn't actively involved in those kind of pre-site work arrangements now if we can go to paragraph 15.3 which is a i think at
00:04:59 paragraph 15.3 which is a i think at page 175
00:05:05 we see it's very top of the page now that provides for resident association representatives to attend site meetings were you aware of that provision as well yes
00:05:14 yes um yes and what did you do to ensure that that requirement was satisfied um we did a protocol around resident engagement with the tmo
00:05:25 engagement with the tmo at the pre-works phase we had regular meetings with the tmo they we agreed that they would lead on the consultation with residents there
00:05:36 the consultation with residents there was an
00:05:36 was an established residence association there they took a number of steps to consult with residents and they consulted with residents about how residents wanted to be involved
00:05:48 how residents wanted to be involved and you essentially left it to them to make the necessary arrangements it was it was agreed with the tmo that they would lead on resident consultation yes
00:05:57 yes now could i now ask you to turn to page 177
00:06:01 177 and paragraph 22.1 which says that all schemes will be subject to a post-project review after completing the project or on
00:06:12 after completing the project or on sectional completion residents will be asked for their view on the way the work was carried out and what they like or dislike about improvements their homes the survey will also seek to collect bme
00:06:23 the survey will also seek to collect bme data were you aware of that provision yes
00:06:26 yes and what steps did you take to ensure those requirements were satisfied i think things got overtaken because um not long after the works were finished we got the
00:06:37 we got the petition from residents so the scrutiny committee initiated that the
00:06:44 the tmo board should review the outcome of the project we also did do a survey of residents about
00:06:52 about how they'd experienced the works and what the impact was for them but we got a very low response rate on that do you agree that at least the 2006 mma
00:07:03 do you agree that at least the 2006 mma did contain provisions dealing with resident engagement on projects such as grenfell yes and this version of the mma would i think have been enforced throughout
00:07:14 think have been enforced throughout a long a significant proportion of the grenfell project yes yes did you have any formal arrangements for monitoring the tmo's compliance with the sections
00:07:25 the tmo's compliance with the sections that i've taken you through that would have been on the main highlight report there was a section on communication with residents and at the asset management meetings we would go through the highlight reports
00:07:37 through the highlight reports and talk about resident involvement
00:07:41 there were quite a few issues with resident involvement towards the last stage of the project because the residents concerned around the location of the boilers so we were very aware about the steps
00:07:53 so we were very aware about the steps that the tmo were taking to talk to residents
00:07:56 residents now can we turn to the projects protocol which is embedded in schedule 9 of the 2015 mma and that can be found at rbk
00:08:06 at rbk quadruple zero 2368 forward slash one four
00:08:16 there we go and if we can go to um schedule
00:08:19 schedule three which can be found in the same document but at page six now it said that that schedule was uh quotes to be reviewed
00:08:30 quotes to be reviewed close quotes can you help us what was the
00:08:33 the the status of schedule 3 after the mma was signed on the 26th of november 2015 i cannot recall that
00:08:44 do you know anyone who would be able to assist us with the answers to that question
00:08:48 question celia chalice khan thank you now in relation to the phrase to be reviewed was there an intention that the asset management projects protocol would replace schedule 3
00:09:01 i suspect so
00:09:05 what's the basis of your suspicion in that respect just that we needed to uh there wasn't enough there wasn't sufficient documentation in the schedules around the management and major works particularly in terms of
00:09:16 and major works particularly in terms of resident engagement so i suspect that that's what that was can you remember now who may have been responsible for deciding that the asset management projects
00:09:27 that the asset management projects protocol would replace schedule three that would be between me and celia liaising with the tmo company secretary can you now remember whether a formal
00:09:38 can you now remember whether a formal decision was made in that regard i cannot recall sorry now could we look at the
00:09:44 at the uh the asset management projects pro process itself and in particular section four
00:09:49 four and if we go to rbk trouble zero five zero
00:09:53 zero four zero nine forward slash two
00:10:00 and if we go to uh the heading resident consultation at the bottom of the page i'll just let you refresh your memory of that
00:10:15 do you agree that there's no reference there to a client review group no there isn't
00:10:19 isn't would you agree that there's no reference either to residents being involved in the selection of consultants not in sufficient detail now was there an intention therefore in 2015
00:10:30 was there an intention therefore in 2015 to
00:10:31 to alter and minimize the degree of resident consultation required under the mma absolutely not
00:10:40 given there had been a reference there had been a removal of the client review group
00:10:44 group and given those insufficient detail regarding the selection of consultants how can you deny so adamantly that there was an intention to minimize the degree of resident
00:10:55 minimize the degree of resident involvement i just think that when we drafted this we did not align it with the other documentation appropriately there was no direct commission
00:11:06 there was no direct commission can i now turn to a diary entry and one of laura johnson's day books it's dated the 23rd of july 2014 and if i could ask you to go to rbk trouble zero five nine five seven four
00:11:19 trouble zero five nine five seven four forward slash one two five
00:11:25 and if we can see in the top left hand corner 1.1 aj and then underneath the date 23rd july 2014
00:11:33 july 2014 now to the extent you can answer this question
00:11:36 question would that have been a note from a one-to-one meeting you had with laura johnson
00:11:40 johnson yes now you'll see the second arrow down is next to the words underlined grenfell tower and it seems to say grenfell tower
00:11:51 tower and it seems to say grenfell tower met with team at tmo to discuss managing eddie dufan and resident liaison major capitals project look at mma for level of monitoring required roger and amanda meeting vernon
00:12:05 going for a site visit do you remember that meeting i don't recall that specific meeting no do you recall being asked by laura johnson to review the provisions of the mma in
00:12:16 review the provisions of the mma in relation to monitoring required on such projects um i don't think laura specifically asked me to review the mma that was something that myself and celia had already embarked on
00:12:30 myself and celia had already embarked on for the purposes of complying with laura johnson's direction did you review schedule 3 of the mma i cannot recall doing that um i think we did an
00:12:40 did an additional documentation to fill in the fill in the gaps in the mma now in relation to grenfell did you ever raise with the tmo that first of all there was no client review group
00:12:53 client review group no i didn't um i felt that they were on top of the consultation with residents and in that regard did you ask the tmo why there had been no residence
00:13:04 why there had been no residence associations involved in the selection of contractors no i didn't did you ask the tmo why there had been no resident association present at site meetings
00:13:16 my understanding is that the tmo started with open meetings which were open to all residents including the residents association they then subsequently consulted with
00:13:28 they then subsequently consulted with the residents and my understanding is the preference was for
00:13:32 was for one to one one-to-one drop-ins and one-to-one consultation so i understood that that was residence preference
00:13:43 now can we move on to a separate topic which is the oversight of fire risk assessments and if i could ask you to go to your first witness statement which is rbk trouble zero double three seven one
00:13:54 rbk trouble zero double three seven one nine
00:13:55 nine forward slash eight
00:13:58 and paragraph forty five where you say this and i quote the tmo then began commissioning fire risk assessments of all properties a large chance of these assessments had to be done for the first time
00:14:09 to be done for the first time as the new regime the regulatory reform fire safety order was implemented for the first time thereafter fire risk assessments became planned as part of a rolling program of
00:14:20 planned as part of a rolling program of updates
00:14:20 updates this would have entailed significant spend and had to be planned as part of the budget what control did rbkc exercise over the budget for fire risk assessments
00:14:31 budget for fire risk assessments we would meet on a regular basis with the tmo
00:14:34 the tmo to look at the hra business plan i would work on that with steve meller who was our finance lead we would ask the tmo to put forward their priorities for spend in terms of
00:14:46 their priorities for spend in terms of the capital programme and then we would build that into the business plan and what oversight would you or your department exercise over the expenditure of that budget
00:14:59 we would we wouldn't get necessarily get into the specific detail about the individual budget that would be something that finance colleagues would pick up with their counterparts in the tmo
00:15:12 their counterparts in the tmo did the tmo ever ask for further resources in order them in order to enable them to carry out and complete the rolling program of fras initially when the reform order came in
00:15:23 initially when the reform order came in we did agree additional resources we also agreed additional resources for the door closers after the adair fire dealing with fras after 2005 order came
00:15:36 dealing with fras after 2005 order came in
00:15:37 in after that initial increase in resource were any further requests made for additional resources for fras not to the best of my recollection and was it as a response of the a tmo request that additional funds were
00:15:49 a tmo request that additional funds were given in respect in respect of claude sorry door closes yes yes
00:15:59 were you aware of the process the tmo undertook to procure fire risk assessments
00:16:07 they followed the procurement regulations um one of my staff and much more was involved in that in 2010 i think that i think that procurement started just before i took
00:16:19 procurement started just before i took responsibility for the client side so one of my staff was actually involved in the procurement of the fire risk assessor to what extent did the housing
00:16:30 to what extent did the housing commissioning team have any oversight function in relation to the substance of the fras that was all delegated to the tmo they carried out operational responsibility
00:16:42 carried out operational responsibility for completing the fras um could i ask you to turn to janet ray's first witness statement which can be found at tmo quadruple zero zero eight
00:16:53 quadruple zero zero eight nine zero forward slash three five
00:17:03 and if i could actually turn to paragraph 157 at the bottom of the page where she said this and i quote the fras themselves were shared as required within the organization
00:17:14 within the organization rbkc did not receive copies as routine although the minutes of the health and safety committee meetings were copied to the corporate health and safety manager furthermore progress in relation to the outstanding fras and fra actions
00:17:25 outstanding fras and fra actions was included in the mid-year and year-end reports on the tmo's performance which were presented to the rbkc scrutiny committee and in the annual tmo health and safety report which was shared with the corporate health and safety manager extracts were
00:17:37 health and safety manager extracts were also included in his annual report which was sent to rbkc's health and safety committee did you see the reports from the tmo's health and safety committee no not routinely no
00:17:52 is it right that you wouldn't receive the individual fras in relation to the tmo housing stock yes did you ever ask to see any fras for example after a dare tower fire or after service of any enforcement
00:18:04 fire or after service of any enforcement notices by the lfepa no can we look at paragraph 3.6 of the 2015-16
00:18:13 2015-16 tmo performance agreement and that can be found at rbk quadruple zero zero five eight nine forward slash twenty nine
00:18:30 uh that refers there to program of fras and reviews to continue more work to ensure actions and recommendations from these are consistently completed in a timely manner
00:18:41 manner who would have drafted and it's the third bullet point who would have drafted
00:18:45 drafted that section of the review janice ray were you provided with any uh other information about what was being done about actions to close out fra actions
00:18:56 about actions to close out fra actions no what information over and above the statement here were you provided with when reviewing this review document um the main
00:19:08 this review document um the main the main oversight would be through meetings that we had with the tmo the kpis which did not include fire risk assessments through regular layers on with janice
00:19:21 through regular layers on with janice that would be how we would know and we did deal with this um in some detail on thursday but looking at this particular review document which
00:19:32 at this particular review document which was from 2005-16 what was the extent of your awareness that actions and recommendations arising from fras
00:19:40 from fras had not been closed out as timelessly as they should have been i didn't know that now can we turn to the enforcement
00:19:51 now can we turn to the enforcement notices that served in relation to a dare tower now we know there was a pharah at a dare tower on the 31st of october 2013 15. and on the 23rd of december 2015 the lfb issued an
00:20:02 lfb issued an enforcement notice addressed both of the council and the tmo following that fire now if we could turn to that notice which is rbk treble zero two nine
00:20:13 rbk treble zero two nine two nine eight nick do you remember whether you saw
00:20:24 nick do you remember whether you saw that enforcement notice after it was issued yes i did see it who gave it to you it probably would have gone to laura who would have copied me into it
00:20:35 would have copied me into it given that you had been told there was a rolling program of fras and that as far as you were aware there were no problems with that program
00:20:45 program were you surprised to receive this notice
00:20:49 notice after the fire i i i would have expected the
00:20:52 the fire brigade to carry out a review of what was in place after the fire i met with barbara matthews who managed janice ray and also met with kostos the fire risk assessor
00:21:04 met with kostos the fire risk assessor to review what had happened and what were the questions that you asked first of all barbara matthews arising out of the service of this notice i think there was some concerns
00:21:16 notice i think there was some concerns at the time about how the the fire had been fought in terms of the fire brigade we then had another two meetings where
00:21:27 we then had another two meetings where we
00:21:27 we talked through the door closer situation and agreed an addition additional budget and we also talked through the inspection regime that was being suggested at that time
00:21:39 time now did you focus there on what the lfb had done on the night um did the enforcement notice lead you to investigate or indeed to challenge the
00:21:51 investigate or indeed to challenge the tmo about the adequacy of their fire risk assessments what they had done not specifically the fire risk assessment i met with carl stokes the fire risk assessor and he took us through what had happened
00:22:03 took us through what had happened and i was satisfied with that now if we can turn to page four of this notice
00:22:10 and you see there the table
00:22:16 of failures identified by the lfepa and if we see at the bottom in respect of article 10 and the bottom left-hand paragraph it
00:22:27 10 and the bottom left-hand paragraph it says this
00:22:28 says this it was found that risk critical items had not been properly addressed within the fire risk assessment in relation to the fitting of self-closing devices to flat entry doors and openable windows within the
00:22:39 and openable windows within the protected care staircase did it cons not concern you that something so fundamental something described here as risk critical had not been identified or addressed in the fire risk assessments
00:22:52 addressed in the fire risk assessments um my understanding at the time was there was an ongoing program of fire risk assessments and that was picking up on issues relating to the fire doors
00:23:04 put differently did you ever ask carl stokes in your discussions with him after a dare toward fire why risk critical items had not been properly addressed i cannot recall having that specific
00:23:17 i cannot recall having that specific conversation with him is it likely that it didn't happen therefore if you cannot recall it can you give the panel more assistance on that point um
00:23:29 yes if i cannot recall it then i i don't think i had that conversation because i think i would remember it beyond discussions with barbara matthews and carl stokes
00:23:40 and carl stokes what proactive steps did you yourself take in responding to the enforcement notice
00:23:45 notice there were regular meetings with the tmo they came back with a schedule for the works to take place i liaised with janice ray on a regular basis to get updates on the works
00:23:57 get updates on the works and also we conducted the scenario testing for the emergency planning and did you understand at the time that further enforcement action could be taken against both the council and the
00:24:08 taken against both the council and the tmo
00:24:09 tmo if the enforcement notice had not been complied with yes now if we can turn to a tmo executive
00:24:17 executive at team meeting minutes on the 11th of february 2016 which can be found at tm00840502
00:24:28 which can be found at tm00840502 if we can go to page two and we go to point three which deals with the dare tone enforcement notice update and it says i quote
00:24:39 update and it says i quote in the second paragraph follows saying that the board will want reassurance from rbkc
00:24:44 from rbkc seen by laura and nicholas holgate and the fire brigade happy with everything protected roof is the smoke test robert and barbara want clarity from the strategic part of the fire brigade rbkc don't want to do this work if not
00:24:57 rbkc don't want to do this work if not required follow reputation of rbkc and tma everything to be addressed board may say a lot in the press about fires our fire risk assessments are all
00:25:09 fires our fire risk assessments are all okay are bkc a key partner and we do what they want paper at the next board meeting will be in the open section
00:25:18 section can you help us understand in more detail what was meant by the phrase quotes rbkc don't want to do this work if not required close quotes
00:25:29 if not required close quotes i suspect it refers to the inspection program laura johnson had asked that they go back and get legal advice and find out what was happening across london
00:25:38 london i know that janice was concerned around getting
00:25:42 getting different levels of advice from the strategic side of the fire brigade and the operational side of the fire brigade so we wanted to know what was happening she would attend pan london meetings with other officers
00:25:54 pan london meetings with other officers that dealt with fire safety and there didn't seem to be a consistent approach in terms of the inspection regime and door closers did cost play an element in her
00:26:06 did cost play an element in her consideration but bluntly that rbkc didn't want to pay for the inspection program if we'd have needed to pay for it we would have paid for it i have no doubt that we would have found that money
00:26:18 that we would have found that money did you agree with laura johnson's uh view of this matter i think there was an inconsistency in advice from the fire brigade and that needed to be clarified and that was my experience with the leasehold of fire doors as well
00:26:29 doors as well and was that because a consistent or unanimous view held in the council about this point i can't say that it was you none of the rest but it certainly was a view that laura held and myself
00:26:41 a view that laura held and myself held was it correct to say that the tmo did what
00:26:46 did what rbkc wanted as is recorded in these minutes
00:26:54 we commissioned what we essentially commissioned them to deliver a service so we would specify what that service would look like um in the years that i worked with them they never refused to do anything
00:27:05 they never refused to do anything that i asked of them
00:27:11 could we turn to the deficiency tower unnoticed that was served in relation to grenfell
00:27:16 grenfell were you aware that on the 17th of november 2016 the lfb issued a notification of fire safety deficiencies in relation to grenfell i do not recall being aware of that now if we can just go to it so you can
00:27:28 now if we can just go to it so you can see it in front of you tmo one double zero one five three three
00:27:42 just let you briefly refresh your memory
00:27:56 if you'd like to go further through the uh the letter please do shout but having refreshed your memory is your evidence still that you don't recall being notified about this particular i don't recall being notified would you
00:28:09 i don't recall being notified would you routinely be notified if the tmo had received a deficiency notice or any other regulatory uh intervention from the lf epa i think the notifications were hit and missed sometimes they would go
00:28:20 sometimes they would go to laura sometimes they wouldn't i don't think we bottoms out a firm enough process
00:28:25 process in regard to to this matter um can i just ask you this i don't know you may say it's not a question which you can really answer but you accepted a moment ago
00:28:37 answer but you accepted a moment ago that
00:28:38 that uh rbkc would uh receive enforcement notices if they were issued in relation to a particular premises
00:28:47 premises um as far as you know did rbkc ever analyze for itself the effect of the regulatory reform order to understand
00:28:59 regulatory reform order to understand what it meant for the council as opposed to the tmo do you know um that came in before i became responsible for the client side monitoring what i would say with hindsight is we did not we did not
00:29:13 hindsight is we did not we did not review the mma with reference to that order and that was a mistake yes i i see well that's helpful but i wasn't just thinking of reviewing the mma because
00:29:26 reviewing the mma because i think your acceptance that the enforcement natives would come to the council as well as the tmo involves a recognition that the council had duties under the rro did did anyone as far as you know
00:29:39 rro did did anyone as far as you know um look at the rro and to ask the question what does this mean for the council
00:29:46 council as opposed to the tmo i don't think we did in sufficient detail no all right thank you very much i'm sorry to interrupt you mr thank you sir um could we turn to page
00:29:57 thank you sir um could we turn to page six
00:29:58 six in this document
00:30:05 this set out a number of deficiencies that had been identified by the lfepa and we see say for example the bottom article 15 1 at the time the audit your
00:30:18 article 15 1 at the time the audit your procedures to be followed in the event of serious and imminent danger were inadequate it was found that fire action notices were not displayed in the common parts were you aware of that particular deficiency was it
00:30:30 that particular deficiency was it discussed or raised by janice ray with you at all at any time i know that after these this notice that plans were put in place to um install the fire action notices so it
00:30:41 install the fire action notices so it was acknowledged that that needed to be done
00:30:44 done were you told that that was as a result of this notification or does it put you in more general terms no i i believed it was due to notifications um
00:30:56 notifications um what wider notifications not just this notice
00:31:00 notice and as a result of that did you ask for janet ray to send you a complete suite of the notifications that the lfepa had sent to the tmo so that you're aware of the full span of the issues
00:31:12 span of the issues no no i just i was aware that they were looking at the fire notice issues can you help us as to why you didn't ask janice ray for such a full suite of notifications from the lf epa i should
00:31:23 notifications from the lf epa i should have asked her can we now go to a joint management meeting in march 2017 in the minutes which can be found at rbk
00:31:32 at rbk trouble zero three treble one zero
00:31:41 we can see there that you attended you're the second identified on on the list the lfb had issued enforcement notices in respect of a darren hazelwood in december 2015
00:31:54 in december 2015 and if we de-amplify the document
00:32:03 and we go to page two
00:32:10 you'll see at point five installation of self-closing doors and annual inspection
00:32:17 were you concerned at that stage that in march 2017 there were still continuing issues regarding self-closing doors we still needed to get clarity on the inspection process
00:32:30 inspection process that needed to be bottomed out and we see there will be a huge cost if we want to do this nobody has an inspection process at present as it's not a legal requirement to have yearly checks
00:32:41 checks could be an option to include in the fire strategy need to develop a program to take to scrutiny liability if the doors are broken would be with the tmo laura agreed to hold off recommending inspections program at present
00:32:53 inspections program at present is it correct that it was decided at this meeting that the proposed installation of self-closing devices was to be a five-year and not a three-year program i don't think it was this meeting i think it was
00:33:04 think it was this meeting i think it was a specific meeting to discuss the adair tower fire so earlier than march 2017 you think i think so yes now the last sentence there says law agreed to hold off recommending
00:33:15 agreed to hold off recommending inspections what was your view on the proposal to carry out annual inspections i think there were some practical difficulties with it that needed to be
00:33:26 difficulties with it that needed to be clarified and we needed to get consistent advice from the fire brigade would you have taken this decision as a decision not to proceed with an
00:33:37 as a decision not to proceed with an inspection program no i think it was let's find out what we need to do and then make a decision
00:33:46 now following the meeting barbara matthews emailed laura johnson on the 3rd of march 2017. confirming the discussion at the meeting and if we could go to rbk quadruple 0-1979
00:34:03 now you're not copied into the initial email but you are copied into laura johnson's reply which is at the top of the page
00:34:10 the page if we can look at the
00:34:14 bottom email which is the trigger email from barbara matthews it says laura just to confirm our discussion and agreement of the joint management team meeting on wednesday we agreed that we would have a program of fitting of cl self closes on
00:34:27 program of fitting of cl self closes on existing flat doors if not already fitted and refit repair self closures if already fitted this program would not be over one year but proposes three to five years our recommendation is that the lfb are unlikely to accept as adequate
00:34:39 unlikely to accept as adequate a program longer than three years although this has yet to be proposed to them
00:34:43 them the estimated cost for the total program regardless a period is 619 k in respect of a proposed annual inspection to check repair replace the sub closes
00:34:54 sub closes you requested that we delay starting this until we have obtained further legal advice on what action we can or can't take against no access by either tenants or leaseholders and deals with flat door self-closures
00:35:06 deals with flat door self-closures please let me know if i've incorrectly captured anything in addition please confirm that we can include in our updated fire strategy a three-year program for fitting of self-closures on all flat entry door and if we go to the top of this page we
00:35:19 and if we go to the top of this page we see laura johnson's response and she says i can confirm this is an accurate record of our discussion i would like to push the installation of door closers to a five-year program it will make funding the program more manageable therefore on the fire
00:35:31 manageable therefore on the fire strategy i would like to say five years rather than three i'm not convinced of the need for an inspection program
00:35:37 program if we started one there is then there is every likelihood it would have to be ongoing
00:35:41 ongoing and therefore an additional expense the hra indefinitely without any identifiable evidence that it impacted positively upon fire safety of residents i understand that the conversation is not always straightforward to the lfb
00:35:53 not always straightforward to the lfb and they may well push for this but if they want to then they need to introduce as a london-wide standard that they will enforce against rather than on a by borough basis and we'd make representation of the gla accordingly
00:36:05 representation of the gla accordingly i look forward to the legal advice now were you involved at all in the decision that the installation of self-closing devices should be implemented over a five-year not a three-year period i didn't make that
00:36:17 three-year period i didn't make that decision i i heard the decision being made but that was very much laura's decision do you recall if any advice was taken from rbkc's health and safety advisor
00:36:29 from rbkc's health and safety advisor regarding the fire safety aspects of a proposal to extend the program for five as opposed to three years i cannot recall that happening would it have been done in such matters
00:36:40 would it have been done in such matters where
00:36:41 where examination was being applied to uh practicability of a fire safety measure um i think we would have taken that advice yes um the the key point there was to get the
00:36:53 the the key point there was to get the legal advice and see what was happening across london can you remember whether any of the council's own fire risk assessors were consulted on the point
00:37:06 i presume that we procured those fire risk assessments externally um
00:37:15 that would have been in the environmental health department so it's unlikely they would have been consulted yes i think so do you know whether anyone in your
00:37:26 do you know whether anyone in your department or you yourself took advice from anyone as to whether the effectiveness of the fire safety measures within grenfell um or timo stock more generally might be
00:37:37 um or timo stock more generally might be impaired by extending the duration of the program from five from three to five years no
00:37:46 if you needed a grant of additional money to whom at rbkc would you have sought the money from we would have dealt with that within the department initially we would have looked at the hra working balance and then laura
00:37:59 working balance and then laura we would put forward a key decision if it was a significant amount of funding and then we would make that a priority can you remember at the time whether there was any discussion to seek further
00:38:11 there was any discussion to seek further funds
00:38:12 funds to allow the program to be completed in three years as opposed to five no i don't believe there was can you help us why not um this is march 2017
00:38:29 i think events just took over us the fire was about two months later and i think events just took over us
00:38:40 i think events just took over us were you aware that a result of this email barbara matthews amended the fire strategy to include a five-year not a three-year i believe she did yes
00:38:54 do you remember what steps you or celia uh chattisgan took to consider the impact of a delay to the programme of five years as opposed to three
00:39:07 particularly in relation to the possibility of having failing self-closing door devices i think in reality i thought we would need to go with three and that the fire brigade would not
00:39:18 and that the fire brigade would not agree to five so i felt that that was the direction of travel and would you agree that laura johnson fairly summarized the thrust of the meeting or at least the thrust of her views expressed at the meeting yes yes
00:39:34 would you characterize laura johnson's attitude to the lfb as combative given her concerns regarding the inconsistency in strategic advice given by the lfb on
00:39:45 in strategic advice given by the lfb on this issue i would say frustration
00:39:58 did you question or challenge laura's johnson's decision on this at any stage no can you recall whether the uh the meeting and this decision was reported to the housing property
00:40:09 reported to the housing property scrutiny
00:40:09 scrutiny committee
00:40:17 i cannot recall is it widely probable unlikely improbable i would have expected laura to have discussed this with councillor fielding mellon
00:40:28 mellon and we did keep him regularly updated about the outcomes from the adair fire now if we could go back to your first witness statement which can be found at rbk
00:40:38 rbk trouble zero double three seven one nine forward slash three two
00:40:46 and paragraph one five eight uh you said this and i quote inspection of self-closers was very difficult we were told by the tmo that residents were removing or disabling the self-closers possibly because they were annoyed by
00:40:57 possibly because they were annoyed by them it was almost impossible to monitor or inspect this regularly a tenant might have disconnected or reconnected the closes between visits so this could not be continuously monitored and would have been very
00:41:08 monitored and would have been very resource incen intensive do you agree that while it was not possible continuously to monitor there was an obligation on our bkc to carry out
00:41:18 carry out regular inspections or at least to use reasonable endeavors to carry out regular inspections yes
00:41:27 ultimately looking at what you said here is the reality that it was the cost of an inspection program as opposed to anything
00:41:33 anything else that was the fundamental concern here i think it was the practicalities of getting access
00:41:42 but bearing in mind laura johnson's comments about the indefinite burden on the hra account cost was certainly a factor wasn't it at the very least um
00:41:52 laura would it was an issue but we would never not do something because it cost too much if it was about resident safety we turn to a separate topic now which is
00:42:03 we turn to a separate topic now which is audits and if we could stay within this statement but go to paragraph 50 on page nine
00:42:12 you say there the annual performance agreement provided for a list of audits which took place annually the results would give a summary of the audit findings and the scoring every year
00:42:21 year audits were carried out by our internal audit department which is part of corporate rotten housing why were audits carried out by corporate rather than housing because i think it was seen as being
00:42:32 because i think it was seen as being independent that's the way it had always been established since i'd worked at the council i don't think it was ever questioned but you'd always receive the audit report absolutely yes now could i ask you to go to rbk trouble
00:42:45 now could i ask you to go to rbk trouble 0-30149
00:42:51 now this is the report on tmo performance for 2011 2012. the performance agreement is at appendix 2 and can be found at page 21.
00:43:04 there we go and if we could go over the page to paragraph 3.4
00:43:10 where we have the title audits and there's a table setting out the draft audit program was that a list of internal tmo audits to be all audits to be formed by rbkc
00:43:22 to be all audits to be formed by rbkc um yes it was internal tmo audits that would be
00:43:25 would be performed by the audit department now we can see
00:43:29 can see towards the bottom end of this table the heading hr and organizational development and that contained a second box which was entitled fire risk assessments
00:43:40 was entitled fire risk assessments were you aware of any audit in relation to fras
00:43:43 to fras ever taking place i would have been aware of that at the time
00:43:52 we can't find anything i was wondering whether you could shed any light on whether the audit ever took place
00:44:02 sometimes audits slipped i moved into the
00:44:06 the into another year i i cannot recall this specifically i'm sorry let's see if we go on further through the um the reports we may get uh
00:44:20 the reports we may get uh clarity but if we could go to the fire risk management system for 2013 and the audit that rbkc carried out and if we look at rbk quadruple zero
00:44:32 and if we look at rbk quadruple zero zero three one three
00:44:39 now there you go the rbkc uh final audit report tmo health and safety dated april 2013.
00:44:46 2013. at the title page stated that the final version was circulated to laura johnson robert black did you receive this document yes
00:44:55 what did you understand the purpose of the audit to be um to look into the operating procedures of the tmo and the audit would look at how the policies and procedures were being
00:45:06 policies and procedures were being implemented would look at compliance issues um in this case it got limited assurance thank you so it was a poor audit and we'll go on to the underlying reasons for that but if
00:45:17 the underlying reasons for that but if we could turn to page four in this document
00:45:23 did you note when reading it that it identified in the third bullet point of paragraph nine as a high priority that quotes all portable firefighting equipment should
00:45:34 portable firefighting equipment should be regularly inspected by the appointed contractor and any fault equipment identified replaced on a prompt basis yes i can recall that there'd be been a problem with the um checking on the fire extinguishers and
00:45:46 checking on the fire extinguishers and turning next to paragraph 10 and the fifth bullet point there a medium priority was that quotes appropriate performance indicators relating to health and safety inspections
00:45:57 inspections should be developed by management presumably noted that as well yes and they did develop them for their internal use and just flowing from the answer you gave earlier on we see at paragraph 11 that the audit gave a limited assurance
00:46:09 that the audit gave a limited assurance yes but
00:46:12 yes but did it concern you at the time that that was the result of this audit yes um i i saw the action plan follow up in september of that year and
00:46:23 follow up in september of that year and i could see that action was being taken to address those areas a lot of it was to do with documentation in terms of recording compliance on the keystone system and did you discuss the your concerns
00:46:36 and did you discuss the your concerns and the reasons why limited assurance had only been given with anyone at the tmo i cannot recall at that particular time we would have picked it up through the performance review
00:46:47 performance review now if we can go to section 8 in this document which is a page 18 and that deals specifically with file safety
00:46:55 safety and if we go to paragraph 8.3 on page 19.
00:47:03 the report says audit examined three fire risk assessment reports as follows deca house 31 danvers street and downing house
00:47:11 house were you aware that in reviewing just three fire risk assessments the audit wasn't a comprehensive review of the tmo's fra arrangements i would agree with hindsight yes
00:47:22 hindsight yes were you aware of that at the time can you remember i cannot recall sorry did you ever ask for there to be a comprehensive review of the tmos fire risk
00:47:30 risk assessment arrangements we did work with them in the uh around 2009 2010 to look at their arrangements which led to the procurement of an external fire risk
00:47:43 procurement of an external fire risk assessor
00:47:45 now can we turn to section 9 of this report which is over the page on page 20 and it's concerned with management information and budgetary control there we go if we can turn over the page
00:47:56 there we go if we can turn over the page to power 9.4 where the recommendation is emboldened
00:48:03 appropriate performance indicators related to health and safety inspections should be developed by management this ensures that inspections can be monitored and any performance issues identified for appropriate corrective action to be taken where performance does not meet
00:48:14 taken where performance does not meet expectations what steps would you take to ensure that the recommendation had been implemented by management of the tma i saw through the
00:48:25 of the tma i saw through the action plan follow-up that they'd implemented those kpis i would also have expected the audit department to check up on the following actions
00:48:34 actions looking at the substance of the management response did you endorse management's acceptance of the need for kpi specifically monitoring fire risk assessment enforcement deficiency notices recede
00:48:46 enforcement deficiency notices recede fires percentage of compliance on maintenance of fire equipment yes i think the problem was that we didn't collect enough compliance performance indicators at a higher level when monitoring the tmo
00:48:59 were you aware that a suite of performance indicators including fire safety specifically were not introduced by the tmo until january 2016. i cannot recall that i understood that
00:49:11 i cannot recall that i understood that they'd done that earlier and what was the basis of your understanding that they've done that earlier
00:49:16 earlier just on feedback through the performance agreement and through feedback on the audit action plan
00:49:25 and those were the matters upon which you relied on reaching that view now a follow-up audit was conducted in december 2013 which can be found at rbk quadruple zero zero three two zero
00:49:44 quadruple zero zero three two zero now based on what you just said were you aware that a follow-up audit had been conducted in december 2013. yes i thought it had been conducted in september probably this is the date of
00:49:55 september probably this is the date of the report did you read this follow-up audit report
00:50:03 if it had come to me then i would have read it i cannot recall specifically reading it do you recall that the overall assurance level had increased by one too satisfactory yes i know that
00:50:14 by one too satisfactory yes i know that they've made improvements now that had been we can go to if need to be but we don't think we need satisfactory assurance is defined as whilst there is a basically sound system there are some weaknesses
00:50:26 there are some weaknesses and or emissions which put some of the system unit process etc objective at risk were you yourself satisfied that the tmos health and safety arrangements were now satisfactory i thought they were making progress to
00:50:38 i thought they were making progress to address the recommendations from the audit plan that's not necessarily an answer to the question i asked were you satisfied as a result of this follow-up audit that the tmo's health and safety arrangements were satisfactory i cannot
00:50:50 arrangements were satisfactory i cannot recall
00:50:50 recall specifically do you recall any ongoing concerns following this report about the adequacy of the arrangements the tmo had in place for the management of health and safety
00:51:01 and safety no did you follow up any of the specific points set out in this report
00:51:12 i know that i looked at the follow-up action plan and the tasks were being taken forward
00:51:20 can we now turn to a separate distinct topic which is that of vulnerable residents and personal emergency evacuation plans did you know whether the tmo had a system for recording
00:51:32 system for recording the vulnerabilities of residents and disabilities as well
00:51:39 i met with the tmo and the london fire brigade about peeps and we agreed that was when a letter came up from the fire brigade around
00:51:50 came up from the fire brigade around peeps in care homes and sheltered housing
00:51:53 housing and it was agreed with the fire brigade that we would concentrate on doing the peeps for people living in sheltered housing
00:52:01 housing and that was in 2016. were you a participant in those discussions yes i was who represented the lfb i cannot recall
00:52:13 who represented the lfb i cannot recall it was the policy side of the lfb was it someone from lfb headquarters or was it someone from one of the from the borough commanders division i think it would have been from the
00:52:24 think it would have been from the borough commanders division
00:52:30 was the result of that conclusion recorded in writing whether in a minute or in correspondence i cannot i i've looked and i cannot find anything
00:52:41 did you know whether the tmo had a system to devise peeps for disabled and vulnerable residents to evacuate
00:52:48 evacuate they did they did for sheltered housing yes
00:52:53 did you ever ask why there were no such arrangements for general needs housing it was very difficult to kind of clarify who had
00:53:01 who had vulnerabilities in in in our housing um people might have moved in 20 years ago and their needs may have changed um the tmo we did a tenancy audit back
00:53:12 um the tmo we did a tenancy audit back in 2005 i believe and the tml were in the process of doing another tenancy audit where they would try and pick up on that information were you satisfied as to the adequacy
00:53:23 adequacy of those measures to ensure the tmo captured
00:53:26 captured as up-to-date information regarding disabilities and vulnerabilities as was reasonably practicable i think they were trying the best i think it was a challenge for them
00:53:36 whose role was it at rbkc to monitor or scrutinize the adequacy of provision for evacuation of vulnerable and disabled in the event of a fire it was no one's specific responsibility
00:53:53 did anyone in your team take proactive steps to satisfy themselves or to assess the adequacy of the provision to meet the needs of the disabled and vulnerable residents in the event of a fire
00:54:05 event of a fire no can you help us as to why not i think having met with the fire brigade my understanding is that we'd concentrate on the
00:54:16 is that we'd concentrate on the sheltered housing and if anyone came across as vulnerable then janice would be notified and then she was do a peep we hadn't agreed to kind uh to whole
00:54:27 we hadn't agreed to kind uh to whole scale program and i knew that they were doing the tenancy audit to try and capture information now in relation to that meeting with the lfb that you've gone back to was it
00:54:39 gone back to was it was that decision reached as a result of a proposal to limit peeps to sheltered housing made by you or the tmo it was linked to a letter which said peeps in relation to care homes and
00:54:52 peeps in relation to care homes and sheltered housing so it didn't talk about general needs stock
00:54:57 stock it talked about specialised housing did you ask for the lfb's views as to the need for and the practicabilities of preparing peeps for general needs
00:55:09 of preparing peeps for general needs housing
00:55:10 housing i don't think we focused on that in the discussion i think it was around the childhood
00:55:15 childhood now if the prompt for that meeting was confined to sheltered housing only that isn't of itself a justification for not considering peeps in general housing is it no
00:55:31 did consideration of peeps in relation to sheltered housing prompt in any way any consideration of the need for peeps for general needs housing we needed to understand the profile of our residents so that was
00:55:43 profile of our residents so that was linked into the tenancy order that the tmo were doing and then i would expect them to come forward with recommendations did they ever do so not not by the time
00:55:54 did they ever do so not not by the time of the final and you said this meeting was in 2016. yes
00:55:58 yes can you remember when in 2016 i think it was halfway through the year so your evidence is after a year the tmo still hadn't come
00:56:09 after a year the tmo still hadn't come back to you with proposals for peeps for sheltered housing no they did they agreed they would do peeps for sheltered housing the discussion had not been on general needs
00:56:21 now can we go to rbk trouble zero five three six
00:56:25 three six one four which is an email chain between gene daintyth robert black laura johnson yourself
00:56:34 and if we can go to page two of that chain
00:56:39 where you can see at the bottom gene dainty
00:56:42 dainty forward an article at 1442 on the 28th of september 2010 to robert black and brian deans he's from the lfb robert black responded at 12 20 on the 30th of september which is the bottom of
00:56:54 30th of september which is the bottom of page one
00:56:58 page one he says in the second substantive paragraph i feel it is worth reiterating that as we have now completed the fire risk assessments on all of our potentially high risk which includes all of our high-risk blocks and each case evacuation strategy
00:57:09 blocks and each case evacuation strategy has been confirmed as being stay put defend in place were you familiar with the concept of stay put yes did you ever question the assertion that stay put was the appropriate strategy
00:57:20 strategy for the tmo housing stock no now the email continues in a third paragraph thus however with regard to emergency procedures for disabled residents we are aiming to produce
00:57:31 aiming to produce peeps were you familiar at that time so september 2010 with the concept of peeps i don't think i was i just returned back to work
00:57:42 i was i just returned back to work and taken on responsibility for the tmo clienting
00:57:47 clienting around that time
00:57:52 can you help us given your lack of familiarity what research you carried out
00:57:56 out so that you understood more about peeps circumstances in which they were required
00:58:00 required i i was familiar with the concept i'd worked in supported housing for many years where we kept lists of vulnerable people if in the event of an evacuation
00:58:11 event of an evacuation so i was i was i was quite clear about the concept and in your previous uh employments had peeps been confined to those in sheltered housing or were they provided
00:58:23 sheltered housing or were they provided for both sheltered and general needs i worked in specialist housing so hostels
00:58:29 hostels supported housing refuges so it wasn't a particular complex it would just be a list of vulnerable residents
00:58:38 residents so it was um it was specialist housing now if we can uh stay on this page but go up because laura johnson forwarded this email
00:58:50 johnson forwarded this email correspondence to you at 1640 on the 30th of september 2010 and she said this when the tmo have put this into action it'd be good if we could get janus read the tmo to inform the other rsls that's
00:59:02 to inform the other rsls that's registered social landlords at the homes and housing group of what must be best practice in assessing the needs of disabled residents and planning with them what to do in the event of a fire you forwarded the email to celia
00:59:14 you forwarded the email to celia chadoscan at 9 46 on the 12th of october saying fyi
00:59:23 sorry i would have expected celia to put it forward on the agenda for the homes and housing group following this email chain in the last quarter of 2010
00:59:34 quarter of 2010 did you ever check whether tmo had put in place the act the suggested approach to vulnerable residents
00:59:42 i cannot recall do you remember chasing celia chalicegun about it i cannot i i cannot remember did you speak to janice ray about the proposal that was described as best practice
00:59:56 my memory is gone on this one i'm afraid
01:00:02 if there's no follow-up in an email from me
01:00:07 me then i suspect not if it wasn't followed up would you accept that that was a failure of oversight on the part of our bkc yes now if we could go to rbk trouble zero
01:00:18 now if we could go to rbk trouble zero five three seven one two now this is an email from claire wise to you and celia chaliscan on the 26th of september 2012 entitled meeting with the london fire
01:00:30 entitled meeting with the london fire brigade hq now claire wise explained that she and janice ray met the lfb that morning i'll just let you briefly refresh your your memory
01:00:43 briefly refresh your your memory of that email and then i'll ask the question do you remember receiving it
01:00:51 i remember there was a specific issue where the fire brigade came to the council and requested that all
01:00:59 all sheltered housing so not just council stock
01:01:04 had arrangements in place to evacuate their buildings it wasn't just council stock it was all all sheltered housing in the borough and if we could go to the fourth
01:01:17 and if we could go to the fourth paragraph
01:01:18 paragraph of this email which starts with the words they believe it's further down the page
01:01:25 it says this and i quote they believe that it is the person organization who manages the building that has a duty to develop a plan with actions to be taken in the event of a fire and collect information on residents with additional
01:01:37 information on residents with additional needs i.e
01:01:38 needs i.e it is the responsibility of the landlord building manager to establish the needs of residents though it is acknowledged that residents are able to decline to disclose this information if they choose did
01:01:49 this information if they choose did receiving this email lead you to make any further inquiries into how the tmo collected data on vulnerable residents i cannot recall at that time it was it was an ongoing
01:02:00 time it was it was an ongoing conversation with the fire brigade about all sheltered housing in the borough i don't think he actually was concluded um with a firm decision can you remember
01:02:11 um with a firm decision can you remember whether you made any inquiries of janice ray to whom this email was copied
01:02:16 i cannot recall sorry
01:02:22 did you conclude after considering this email that the question of peeps was a matter that ought to be the subject of close scrutiny by rbkc given the lfb's interest
01:02:36 i think the fact that we couldn't get clarity from the fire brigade meant that we didn't take take this forward
01:02:44 well looking at the paragraph i've just quoted to you the one which starts they believe
01:02:49 believe what is uncertain about the message summarized in that paragraph i think again it was not just around our stock it was around all housing associations stuck in the
01:03:01 all housing associations stuck in the borough
01:03:02 borough and i think people thought that this wasn't practical to manage
01:03:09 and this conversation kind of didn't really go anywhere after this initial meeting given your evidence that you considered
01:03:21 given your evidence that you considered the message to be inconsistent or some way unclear did you ever email anyone rbkc or the lfb saying the message is unclear and setting out
01:03:33 the message is unclear and setting out the practical issues about which you had concern
01:03:35 concern i cannot recall doing that claire was very much involved in those discussions now can we turn to rbk trouble zero four six
01:03:43 six three three four which is another email chain
01:03:48 chain at this time between you laura johnson and janice ray the 11th of april 2016 laura johnson forwarded a letter from the lfb to you and suggested that you should arrange a
01:03:59 and suggested that you should arrange a meeting with janus ray regarding its concerns
01:04:02 concerns now if we can go to that letter it's rbk trouble zero four six treble three
01:04:19 now the letter is dated the 5th of april 2015
01:04:24 2015 i a year before the email under which it was forwarded to you and it's entitled care homes and specialized housing tenants and service users
01:04:33 users with vulnerabilities or dependencies protection from fire and prevention of future deaths if we go to the second page
01:04:43 you'll see the the heading evacuation strategy and compartmentation separation and it says this the lfb have experienced a number of fires where breaches of fire compartments
01:04:54 breaches of fire compartments have resulted in the rapid and unexpected spread of fire throughout buildings
01:04:58 buildings which has compromised the evacuation strategy often this has been via hidden voids
01:05:02 voids utility and ductwork penetration and false ceilings when this happens there is obviously an increased risk for those within the premises
01:05:10 premises especially for those considered to be more vulnerable the integrity of compartmentation and separation within your premises is therefore critical to the evacuation strategy
01:05:20 strategy now that letter expressly concerns care homes and sheltered housing however did its receipt prompt you to consider the question of how the tmo was taking into account vulnerabilities
01:05:31 was taking into account vulnerabilities in general needs housing april 2016. no this this is the la liga it's about to ask you is this the letter this is the letter that prompted us to meet with the fire
01:05:42 prompted us to meet with the fire brigade
01:05:46 and did you consult janice ray about the contents of this letter before you met the lfb yes
01:05:57 and did you press her and seek further information on the substance of the arrangements the tmo had
01:06:03 tmo had for ascertaining sufficient information on vulnerable residents when we met with the fire brigade we we agreed that we would complete peeps camtoon was there that's responsible for
01:06:15 camtoon was there that's responsible for supported housing who would have overseen that process working with janice now can we turn to another email chain
01:06:28 tm00853468 which is in the email of the 23rd of march 2017 from christine cummings to you concerning various issues raised in relation to flats six and seven
01:06:41 relation to flats six and seven at grenfell tower and the issues that escalated to you as a number of emails had been sent to offices of the tma without any action being taken an email notes
01:06:53 nearly every time kathy has attended the property either one or both lifts have been
01:06:57 been out of order the doors to both these properties are too heavy and outside the recommended range
01:07:05 range the fire door is too heavy and the doors uh not closed properly there we go i'll just let you refresh your memory ms johnson i can remember this which is that's the
01:07:17 i can remember this which is that's the answer to my first question you remember it
01:07:19 it yes can you remember what action you took in response um i went to sasha evans who was the exec director for housing to see if the matter could be resolved
01:07:31 matter could be resolved now did this complaint prompt any concerns in your mind about how the tmo were managing the risks that were particular to vulnerable residents in the event of a fire
01:07:45 i know i know that heavy fire doors can be an issue in in housing um and that you need to strike a balance between making sure the fire door is safe and secure
01:07:58 the fire door is safe and secure and the needs of the residents so i'm familiar with it being a problem [Music]
01:08:08 [Music] sasha went i asked sasha to intervene because we weren't getting any anywhere um with the managers i cannot recall what the outcome was but
01:08:19 i cannot recall what the outcome was but i do remember this
01:08:22 issue
01:08:26 now could i ask you before we leave the topic of peeps to go to tm00840583
01:08:35 which is the 2016 health and safety report
01:08:41 if we go to page 18.
01:08:49 there we go the last paragraph of 15.2
01:08:57 which starts whilst this will continue to be an error potential risk for the kc timon residents we are committed to close liaison with the lfb and rbkc to implement initiatives which will enhance
01:09:09 implement initiatives which will enhance resident safety swiftly and effectively additionally it is important we continue to provide residents with fire safety information advice guidance publicised fire procedures on the website in the residence handbook articles the link etc
01:09:21 articles the link etc and identify residents with special needs and when necessary work with them to draft a specific peep to ensure that their safety is protected do you recall receiving this report and reading it
01:09:33 receiving this report and reading it um i cannot recall it specifically but i know that the tml were working towards doing peeps where they identified vulnerable residents and
01:09:44 identified vulnerable residents and would you agree that here the work on peeps is not limited to sheltered housing but appears to be across the estate when we met with the fire brigade we agreed
01:09:56 fire brigade we agreed that if any vulnerable residents were identified to the tml then they would do a peep
01:10:05 now if we can turn to a separate topic which is complaints and particular complaints kpis could i ask you to turn back to the tmo performance report 2011 2012 and in particular appendix a now
01:10:16 2012 and in particular appendix a now this can be found at rbk treble zero three zero one four nine forward slash sixteen
01:10:28 and here we have it's called the pi performance indicator table
01:10:34 and we see that there appears to be no kpi
01:10:38 kpi in relation to complaints is that a fair observation yes can we turn to the performance report for 2012 2013 which is at tmo one double zero three nine two four
01:10:51 double zero three nine two four five forward slash eighteen
01:11:01 again would you agree that there appears to be no kpi in relation to complaints no can you help us to why there were no kpis uh for complaints in these in these years um we should have had a complaints
01:11:13 years um we should have had a complaints kpi
01:11:14 kpi i'm i it shouldn't have been excluded can you help us as to why complaints weren't addressed though i i cannot recall
01:11:25 i i cannot recall we had complaints as a regular agenda item at the hra meeting i know we discussed complaints with them um john malcolm who reported to me at
01:11:36 um john malcolm who reported to me at the time with liaise with the tmo on complaints this is this is an emission that shouldn't have happened and you can't explain give that degree of consideration why it didn't transform itself into a kpi i
01:11:47 didn't transform itself into a kpi i cannot recall why this was excluded now can we stay in this document but go down to page 22.
01:11:57 and you'll see there in 3.2
01:12:02 new
01:12:06 kpis there's a new kpi in relation to complaints you see that's the first bullet point on the right hand side yeah and if we go to page 29
01:12:19 yeah and if we go to page 29 we can see this is included hs12 there we go complaints number of tmo stage 1 complaints
01:12:30 number of tmo stage 1 complaints answered within target now you set paragraph 46 of your first statement and we don't need to go to it unless you'd like me to take you there you refer to a year in which the number of complaints being handled by the tmo increased
01:12:43 being handled by the tmo increased was the complaints kpi introduced as a result of that increase
01:12:50 increase no i think it was just introduced in order to collect that information
01:12:56 now do you agree that the kpi relates solely to stage one yes and you agree that the kpi would have told
01:13:05 have told rbkc nothing about the adequacy of the response of the complaint yes equally would tell rp casey nothing about the resident satisfaction with the response
01:13:19 satisfaction with the response yes why did the kpi not relate to stages two and three we should have we should have looked at that we should have looked at complaints kpis in more detail
01:13:31 kpis in more detail and if that detail had been provided it would have given our bkc more detailed and hopefully better knowledge of the effectiveness of the complaints system the tmo was offered yes it would have
01:13:43 have now could we now go to tmo one treble zero nine four eight six
01:13:54 now this is a report on kensington chelsea tenant management organizations performance review 2014-15 and performance agreement 2015-16
01:14:02 2015-16 and if we go to page seven
01:14:07 and if that could be expanded
01:14:16 you see hs12 there just blow hs7 and it says target net and the green traffic light given and if we go
01:14:28 traffic light given and if we go first bearing that in mind now go down to page
01:14:31 to page 19.
01:14:36 that could be amplified and hs12 has been removed can you help us to why hs12 was removed i can't i've thought about this a lot
01:14:47 i can't i've thought about this a lot and i can't recall why it was removed it shouldn't have been removed but you accept it was yes can you remember why well first of all
01:14:59 can you remember why well first of all did you ever identify that point at the time and say that ought be a kpi concerned with complaints and covered in more detail i should have done but you didn't did
01:15:10 i should have done but you didn't did anyone
01:15:11 anyone no no it wasn't raised as an issue can you help the panel what was the degree of oversight that the your department had over the the ways and means in which the tmo collected uh
01:15:24 tmo collected uh and recorded data regarding complaints they had their own systems that were separate to the council
01:15:31 in your time did rbkc ever inspect or indeed audit the tmos complaints process i believe the audit department audited the complaints process and that would have included a review of
01:15:43 and that would have included a review of the records with it it should have yes
01:15:48 were you aware of the fact that complaints made through a counsellor were often recorded as member inquiries so it didn't feature in complaints data yes
01:16:00 did you ask for information as to how many
01:16:03 many member inquiries had been made and the substance of them john morkan would do an annual report where he would set out the number of member
01:16:12 member inquiries and what they related to as well
01:16:15 well as well as complaints and would that report draw out the themes if any emerging from the complaints information yes it would um did you ever ask for details on the
01:16:27 um did you ever ask for details on the tmo's classification of complaints and concerns no can you help us why not um a lot of the complaints um
01:16:38 um a lot of the complaints um were around repairs failure to attend appointments there was nothing that kind of stuck out as
01:16:45 as unexpected in terms of their complaints they would come they would come to me on complaints by exception if there was a particular problem now
01:16:56 if there was a particular problem now just one final question before i ask the panel to rise for the morning break could i ask you to go to
01:17:03 rbktr0046165 which is an email chain from january 2015 between you peter madison roger keane and the gtla now that email chain begins with the
01:17:14 now that email chain begins with the gtla sending a complaint in relation to the improvement works on the extraction and ventilation system and following up on an email sent to councillor rockfielding melon and you forward this to peter madison
01:17:30 and you forward this to peter madison and you say uh peter when we received these type of email before we channel them through the tmos complaints process as a means of managing this and suggest we do so again there we go
01:17:43 and suggest we do so again there we go peter madison then proposed that the gtla's email be treated as a members inquiry
01:17:47 inquiry rather than under the tmo complaints procedure if we go back to where we were at the top
01:18:00 and you basically say there we go happy with this approach with that approach i should say what did you understand at the time to be the distinction to be made between a member's inquiry and a complaint
01:18:12 member's inquiry and a complaint there was a formal complaints process that the tmo had in place um where you would go to the complaints team um
01:18:20 team um and and make your complaint and then there would be a formal investigation
01:18:27 members councillors would often email officers
01:18:31 officers directly and that would include officers at the tmo with inquiries and often they got treated as a members inquiry rather than a complaint i had some concerns
01:18:43 than a complaint i had some concerns with this because there was repeat um repeat emails from ton day about concerns so i think at one point they did put it through the complaints process
01:18:54 process can you help it because that was going to be my next question at the time on what basis were you satisfied that the members inquiry approach was the appropriate one as opposed to channeling it via the complaints process
01:19:06 channeling it via the complaints process because peter was often in direct contact with councillor blakeman and would email her directly and you would also get a quicker response rather than go through the complaints process which was a 15-day
01:19:18 complaints process which was a 15-day turnaround time and was it ever a cause of concern either on your part or anyone else at rbkc
01:19:25 rbkc that the members inquiry route uh may have resulted in using that route may have resulted in under reporting of the volume of complaints been made by residents
01:19:36 residents i think we didn't capture the information systematically
01:19:43 so especially where it was officers responding to councillors directly in your view do you think the data
01:19:54 in your view do you think the data the data could result in an under reporting
01:19:58 reporting it could have done um john certainly would have kept john may not have known about all the members inquiries he may not have been party to all of those so i think there was a lack of systematic reporting
01:20:10 there was a lack of systematic reporting yes
01:20:11 yes do you think there was a lack of systematic underreporting specifically in relation to grenfell no and why do you say that because i would
01:20:19 would whenever an email came in i would always check that it had been it had been responded to thank you so so i somewhat parentally um
01:20:32 thank you so so i somewhat parentally um uh suggested when the time for the mid-morning break might be but this would be a convenient time well if it's convenient to you i think it's a good time to take it yes we'll have a break now um miss johnson we'll come back at 25
01:20:44 we'll come back at 25 to 12 please and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room
01:21:00 evidence while you're out of the room right 25 to 12.
01:36:24 yes would you ask mr johnson to come back in please thank you
01:36:39 back in please thank you all right mrs johnson ready to carry on good yes mr canoe thank you sir um could we turn to paragraph 181 of your first witness statement which is rbk trouble zero double three seven one nine
01:36:51 trouble zero double three seven one nine forward slash thirty six
01:37:17 thank you in paragraph 181
01:37:25 and you say in the last sentence at the bottom of that page i remember seeing an upturn
01:37:28 upturn and the number of complaints coming forward via the tmo however we were told this was because the complaints process had been relaunched quotes and the tmo were reaching out to more residents who told you that the
01:37:40 residents who told you that the complaints process had been quotes relaunched close quotes yvonne burch did you seek further details from the tmo as to how they were quote reaching out close quotes to more
01:37:51 quote reaching out close quotes to more residents and the success of that initiative they they published the complaints procedure i think they reviewed the procedure and they published it and obviously it would go in the link magazine and things like
01:38:02 in the link magazine and things like that
01:38:04 do you think it was linked to the publication by the tmr of a new complaints policy in september 2015. i believe it was if we could look at that updated complaints policy which can
01:38:15 that updated complaints policy which can be found at tmo20837246
01:38:27 do you recognize that document we can go to the next page if yes were you ever given a copy um i don't know that i was i had a copy
01:38:38 um i don't know that i was i had a copy of it
01:38:39 of it definitely i had a copy of it did you ask a von burch or indeed anyone else what the major changes were in this new version of the policy published in september 2015. i cannot recall
01:38:51 did you seek a detailed explanation from yvonne butch or indeed anyone else at the tmo
01:38:56 the tmo as to how and why the re-launched had resulted in a greater number of complaints um my understanding was they just promoted it more publicly i think at the time as well that also been issues with
01:39:08 time as well that also been issues with the customer service center and there'd been some retraining of staff and that had sparked an increase in complaints as well did you or indeed anyone else rbkc to your knowledge
01:39:19 your knowledge seek any information about the nature of the complaints being made in order to verify whether there were any trends or patterns which might give rise to tmo operations we didn't look at that granular detail
01:39:31 we didn't look at that granular detail which was a mistake would it be fair to say therefore that you took a face value
01:39:44 you took a face value the assurance that it was the relaunch that had produced the uptick in complaints yes
01:39:50 now can i turn to the question of board review and if we can go back to your first witness statement and which is rbk trouble zero double three seven one nine
01:40:01 three seven one nine forward slash three eight and paragraph 190
01:40:07 190 mr canoe i'm sorry to interrupt you but um
01:40:10 um my transcript is not scrolling and i don't know whether other people's transcripts are scrolling or not is yours
01:40:16 yours mine is nods from around in the body of the hearing there's thought i'd been singled out for special treatment but not because sister fans doesn't either all right well i suggest we carry on
01:40:27 well i suggest we carry on and we'll see how we get on sir thank you
01:40:31 you looking at paragraph 190 you say there that you recall the petition from grenfell residents being presented to the scrutiny committee and that resulted in a review by the tmo
01:40:42 and that resulted in a review by the tmo board
01:40:43 board um if i can go now to tm010011591
01:40:56 now as you see these are minutes of a joint meeting between the council and the tmo
01:41:01 the tmo we can see from the very top that you attended
01:41:05 attended if we could go to page two of these minutes
01:41:08 minutes and a particular the bottom section
01:41:13 and in that very final paragraph which starts with the words counselor blakeman also presented a petition with 60 signatures about our management at grenfell
01:41:21 grenfell and compensation for residents amanda johnson feels that that it is a conflict of interest for councillor blakeman as she is a council appointed tmo board member fuller suggested amanda johnson speaks
01:41:32 fuller suggested amanda johnson speaks to laverne about this as it needs to be urgently addressed first of all what was the conflict of interest that you identified um it wasn't just me that had i
01:41:43 um it wasn't just me that had i identified it it was follow the company's secretary as well um councillor blaitman was a member of the tmo board but also a member of the housing and scrutiny committee
01:41:54 committee so that's where the conflict of interest came from
01:41:58 came from so i agreed to go and get some advice and i got that advice and there was no conflict of interest
01:42:07 would you accept that there could have been
01:42:11 been no conflict of interest for council blakeman to represent the interests of the
01:42:15 the residents if the tmo existed to serve the interests of those residents yes
01:42:22 ms johnson that concludes uh my prepared questions
01:42:26 questions uh for now um sir might i have uh a break of say uh 10 15 minutes should we say till midday thank you sir and then we'll see whether where you
01:42:37 and then we'll see whether where you stand i'm great mr johnson at this stage when council says he's finished asking the questions he's prepared we have to have a break just to
01:42:45 just to make sure nothing's been overlooked and to allow questions from others who are not in the room to be considered so we'll break now until 12 o'clock and then when you come back we'll see if
01:42:57 and then when you come back we'll see if there's more questions for you okay so uh and please don't talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room
01:43:03 the room and then if you'd like to go with the usher that will be fine okay thank you
01:43:20 right midday then thank you so much
01:59:48 yes would you ask mrs johnson to come back in please
02:00:02 right mrs johnson we'll see whether any more questions for you okay yes just just a few sir um in your evidence this morning you emphasize the difficulties of collecting information regarding the vulnerabilities of residents
02:00:14 vulnerabilities of residents at the beginning of a tenancy what system was in place for rbkc's housing department to share information with a new tenant about their vulnerabilities if they've um made a homeless
02:00:26 if they've um made a homeless application we would have information about
02:00:29 about vulnerabilities on the ibs system and that could be shared with the tmo and was it shared with the tma it should have been shared with the tmo yes what procedure
02:00:40 yes what procedure was in place for adult social care to alert our bkc and or the tmo of a resident receiving a new care package or their care package changing because of a change in need
02:00:51 changing because of a change in need there was no mechanism do you know why i think there would have been personal data issues we would have needed an information sharing agreement with the tmo
02:01:04 the tmo i don't think that was ever put in place was it ever considered miss johnson an information sharing agreement yes yes we've we've considered this and was it under regular consideration
02:01:15 and was it under regular consideration during your time or was it or can you give the panel particular dates or a date when it was considered um i can't recall a particular day i mean as as well i would act as a conduit between the council and the tmo
02:01:28 between the council and the tmo so people would come to me if they had concerns about a resident and then i could initiate something with the tmo
02:01:35 the tmo and was the information sharing agreement uh not pursued because of the data protection issues that you've referred to earlier on i think it was an obstacle
02:01:47 obstacle that got in the way if a resident applied to our bkc for a transfer
02:01:53 transfer as a result of a change in need would tiem would rbkc inform the tmo yes we'd have to and in the context of peeps
02:02:05 we'd have to and in the context of peeps what did you yourself consider to amount to a vulnerability was there a working shared definition applied by both our bkc and tmo i don't think there's a strict definition it could be anything from
02:02:17 definition it could be anything from physical
02:02:18 physical disability to mental health issues to mobility issues it could be any one of those things was there ever a shared definition with the tmo would you be same thing
02:02:29 the tmo would you be same thing would you sing from the same hymn sheet i think we would recognize vulnerable people in the same way yes is that
02:02:37 that saying that you didn't have a shared no not not definition now now could finally could i ask you to go to rbk trouble zero three zero one four five
02:02:55 just a brief question in relation to this i'll let you refresh your memory
02:03:08 can you just tell us what this document is i think it's from the regeneration team
02:03:14 team are you familiar with it i don't recall it
02:03:18 it um would you know who would have written it
02:03:21 it i would be guessing um but i think it's a
02:03:24 a i think it's a regeneration document and laura johnson when we asked her about it she didn't recall who uh wrote it
02:03:36 would it help it obviously refers to siltchester garages and the trellic consultation does that help you as to who might have written it and for what purpose you'll see in the concerns of using the
02:03:47 you'll see in the concerns of using the kctmo the two bullet points there the counting of garages at silchester and consultation at trellic does that help you it would be the roof angel i think or kitty mortimer
02:04:00 and were they in regeneration yes uh miss johnson i have no further questions for you um save to ask is there anything else which you haven't said which you'd like to say to the panel um
02:04:13 which you'd like to say to the panel um i'd like to say i fully recognize that we should have had more scrutiny and more technical skills in my team to oversee compliance and i fully accept
02:04:24 to oversee compliance and i fully accept that
02:04:27 i grew up in council housing and i've seen it
02:04:32 seen it seen its demise since the 1980s when right to buy was brought in there's been deregulation in the sector there's a lack of investment going into
02:04:43 there's a lack of investment going into council housing and i hope that you will look at this in a wider context the government reduced rents for three
02:04:55 the government reduced rents for three consecutive years which reduced funding sales high value voids which is no longer happening and we couldn't borrow more money to invest in our stock until after the fire
02:05:08 invest in our stock until after the fire so i think that there are wider issues here
02:05:12 here um through successive governments tory labour and the coalition council housing is a a really important
02:05:23 council housing is a a really important community asset that should be valued ms johnson thank you very much for coming to give evidence it's much appreciated and can i just say i'm so sorry i took anything that doesn't
02:05:34 anything that doesn't have happened an hour that goes by that i don't think about it well mr johnson we are all very grateful
02:05:45 well mr johnson we are all very grateful to you for coming to give your evidence i'd like you to know that
02:05:49 that we've all found it very helpful to hear from you
02:05:52 from you and it really has been a benefit to us so we are very grateful indeed thank you all right thank you very much would you like to go to the usher then please
02:06:15 yes mr can here thank you very much um we have another witness waiting i believe is that right you do sir the next witness is rock fielding melon who'll be examined by mr millet yeah um we would ask you to rise however
02:06:26 we would ask you to rise however momentarily to allow um the usual the usual arrangements to be made please quite understand that well um we will uh rise now and uh you've been asked the usher to come and get us when the
02:06:37 usher to come and get us when the arrangements have been made we'll do so thank you thank you very
02:06:42 much
02:14:42 yes mr millet good afternoon mr chairman good afternoon members of the panel i now
02:14:46 now call mr rock fielding melon please
02:15:00 [Music] good morning mr fielding melon i understand that you wish to make the affirmation yes thank you very much well then would you read the words on the screen please i do solemnly sincerely and truly
02:15:12 i do solemnly sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth
02:15:17 the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth thank you very much now do sit down and make yourself comfortable
02:15:39 thank you when you're ready mr billy thank you very much mr chairman uh mr fielding melon can i start by thanking you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations we're very grateful to you
02:15:50 we're very grateful to you if you have any difficulty understanding any of my questions i can put the question in a different way or i can repeat the question just say if you feel you need a break at any time
02:16:00 any time we can take a break we will be taking scheduled breaks during your evidence the first one will be during the course of the afternoon after
02:16:09 after after lunch the other thing i would ask you to do please is to keep your voice up
02:16:13 up so that the transcriber who sits to your right can
02:16:17 right can can get down accurately what you're saying
02:16:20 saying uh try not to nod or shake your head say yes
02:16:23 yes or no as the case may be okay because silent gestures don't go onto the transcript now you've made two witness statements to the inquiry plus a statement to the metropolitan police
02:16:34 a statement to the metropolitan police um the metropolitan um the the questions i'm going to ask you
02:16:39 you are based on your inquiry statements which i'll put to you first please formally
02:16:44 formally the first one is rbk3033403
02:16:50 it's dated the 18th of october 2018. that's its first page is that your first witness statement yes uh and if you go to page 41 please you'll see the date and the signature
02:17:06 is that your signature it is and i'll call that your first witness statement can i show you rbk30
02:17:16 your second statement please is that the first page of your second statement yes can we go to page h please we can see a signature there is that
02:17:27 we can see a signature there is that your signature above the date 26 september 2019 yes have you read each of these statements recently yes can i ask you to go to your first statement please
02:17:39 statement please page five
02:17:43 page five and i'd like to look with you please at paragraph 18 where you say this during my time on the council i performed a variety of these roles as a back bencher i sat on the public realm scrutiny committee between
02:17:55 realm scrutiny committee between 2006 and 10 and then on the housing and property scrutiny committee between 2000 between 2010 and 2011 and i sat on the planning committee
02:18:06 and i sat on the planning committee between 2006 and 2011. uh in fact i think it's right that um the second statement there that you sat on the housing and property
02:18:18 that you sat on the housing and property scrutiny committee between 2010 and 11 is wrong is that the case that is the case i did spot that and informed my lawyer that that should have been the
02:18:30 my lawyer that that should have been the cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee that i sat on during those dates right is it correct that in your role
02:18:37 role as cabinet member for housing property and rent regeneration you would attend meetings of the housing property scrutiny committee yes i was invited by the committee to
02:18:49 yes i was invited by the committee to attend i was not a member but i did attend
02:18:52 attend between 2013 and 2017 when i was in that cabinet position did you attend uh
02:18:58 uh the housing and property scrutiny committee uh before 2013 not that i remember doing so now are you able to assist us with how the er that
02:19:09 able to assist us with how the er that error crept into paragraph 18 of your statement
02:19:12 statement i think it's because i was writing and thinking about the housing and property security committee so much during the writing of this statement that i just made that mistake
02:19:24 statement that i just made that mistake right and you first realized that in april i think this year when i started re-reading this statement in preparation for this yes apart from the correction that
02:19:36 yes apart from the correction that you've just made to your first statement are the contents of your first and second statements true i have re-read them especially in the light of spotting that mistake and uh as far as i am aware now they are
02:19:50 and uh as far as i am aware now they are true
02:19:50 true thank you have you discussed your statements or your evidence that you're going to give today with anybody before coming here i discussed my statement with the with my lawyers with the council's lawyers
02:20:01 my lawyers with the council's lawyers i see now i'm going to begin substantive questions to you by asking you some questions about your background and a bit about your training um you became a counselor
02:20:12 became a counselor for or at rbkc in i think 2006 didn't you
02:20:16 you yes and that was in the saint charles ward
02:20:19 ward correct and then from july 2010 you were counselor in the holland ward i believe that's that right yes yes and in each case was that as a conservative
02:20:30 conservative councillor yes and in may 2006 is it right that you had just turned 27 years of age that is correct and what um was your career and background before 2006
02:20:45 career and background before 2006 um i uh
02:20:49 um i uh had i went after i finished doing a masters at the lsc i started um my own business uh in property investment
02:21:01 in property investment and what was your last what was the subject matter of your masters at the lse
02:21:05 lse it was uh international political economy right and is it right that um from 2009 you were and i think remain the director of a company called socially conscious
02:21:17 of a company called socially conscious capital limited that's correct is that a property development an investment company it it is a in the property industry it is a what they call a strategic land promoter
02:21:28 promoter whereby we seek to get planning permission on greenfield sites around towns and villages
02:21:36 villages in the uk so you're involved and have been
02:21:39 been since that time involved in major regeneration or perhaps minor regeneration projects they are it's all to do with the planning we don't do any building work just getting the planning permissions and is
02:21:51 getting the planning permissions and is that specifically in social housing or no it's uh mainly residential but mixed tenure mixed tenure were you involved in that business
02:22:02 involved in that business in parallel to your carrying out your responsibilities as councillor at rbkc yes and in the period from 2010 to 2017 what other business
02:22:13 to 2017 what other business or other interests or activities did you pursue in parallel with your activities as a counselor at rbkc socially conscious capital was my uh
02:22:24 socially conscious capital was my uh primary other business right and what proportion did you
02:22:28 you generally devote to council business or work
02:22:32 work as opposed to your own private interests um
02:22:36 um probably about half my time we did at one stage
02:22:39 one stage um do a kind of over a month try to measure
02:22:44 measure how much time on spends on in one's council capacity this was asked of us by by the council and on average i was spending around 30 hours a week on my council business
02:22:57 have you ever had any training or any professional development to assist you in carrying out your your role as a director of socially conscious capital
02:23:05 capital no have you ever had any training once you became counsellor uh as counsellor in health and safety matters no
02:23:16 in health and safety matters no fire safety no social housing management no uh the rules or guidance surrounding the subject of consultation with residents
02:23:27 with residents no equality and diversity no formal training no was there any mandatory training for councillors that existed at rbkc before the fire at
02:23:38 that existed at rbkc before the fire at grenfell tower in june 2017 when i was elected in 2006 there was no mandatory training as far as i remember
02:23:50 remember i do think that the induction process for new
02:23:54 for new councillors was improved in ensuing years and i think counselors were elected in 2014 were given
02:24:05 given more thorough induction training than when i was first elected and what did that more thorough induction training involve
02:24:12 involve i i can't give you the details because i wasn't one of the counselors who went through it i'm afraid all right i'm going to ask you some questions now about
02:24:20 about your role and particularly oversight that was provided to the tmo now uh first i want to ask you
02:24:29 you some questions about the housing and property scrutiny committee can i begin with iws four zeros one four six two please
02:24:41 this is a report of an investigation and it's entitled long
02:24:47 long investigation report on long-standing complaints of the kensington and chelsea tmo by local governance limited and specifically maria momoli
02:24:58 specifically maria momoli who conducted that investigation first is this a document that you've ever seen before not as i remember right so does that
02:25:09 not as i remember right so does that tell us that at no time during your tenure as counsellor and particularly as a cabinet member and deputy leader you never saw this document
02:25:23 right now it does not ring any bells but i don't know what date it was produced uh april 2009 let's let's look a little further into it and see if i can ring a bell for you with it can we go please to page three
02:25:36 can we go please to page three where you can see the executive summary and it starts there are a number of tenants leaseholders and freeholders within the borough of kensington and chelsea who feel aggrieved that their their
02:25:47 who feel aggrieved that their their problems have not been resolved by the tmo despite several years of complaining now just pausing there um this is 2009 did you know that this subject was the subject of
02:25:59 that this subject was the subject of a report i did not i was not in the cabinet then and i was not on the housing and property security committee at that time no in fact i think you've you've told us you've never
02:26:11 you've told us you've never been on the housing and property scrutiny committee no but i didn't even attend it obviously no no let's just look a little further down the page then the third paragraph the resident's main concerns are around
02:26:23 concerns are around and you've got the list there major works management charges service charges etc
02:26:28 etc uh communications and performance and monitoring trust and confidence are some of those listed uh and in the next paragraph but one further down the longer one you
02:26:39 but one further down the longer one you can see in the last sentence uh the new board needs to win the hearts and minds of those disgruntled residents who have had grievances going back several years the board must understand
02:26:50 several years the board must understand its constitutional and legal role and take collective responsibility to spearhead the tmo in its improvement plan and then at the foot of page three and over to page four you can see a list of of main recommendations customer care
02:27:01 of main recommendations customer care relations just in in heading terms customer care relations at the foot of page three onto page four customer services and complaints repairs major works and service charges
02:27:12 repairs major works and service charges and then on to page five you can see governance issues corporate policy financial issues etc i don't think i need to read any further into this document looking at that was there ever a time
02:27:24 looking at that was there ever a time when this was ever mentioned to you or discussed in front of you or even shown to you so what i do remember is um i think the council is generally being told that
02:27:35 the council is generally being told that there were issues that the council had with the tmo i i remember being made aware that i said i can't remember the name of anyway there was a problem with the
02:27:46 anyway there was a problem with the chief executive it was problematic i knew that there were problems in the tmo and the council were did they serve an improvement plan on the tmo or um anyway that they were
02:27:58 on the tmo or um anyway that they were trying to
02:28:00 trying to get the tmos executed function better yes i see so you knew about the improvement plan which was 2010 the year after this report did you i was aware of it i wouldn't i
02:28:11 did you i was aware of it i wouldn't i didn't know the details all right go back a page please to the heading repairs major works and service charges
02:28:17 charges we glanced at a moment ago and see the recommendation under that uh you can see the first bullet point is this the council should take a more robust role to ensure tmo technical services
02:28:29 role to ensure tmo technical services are capable of delivering an effective major works program and cyclical repairs did you know at any time that that had been the subject of an independent recommendation no right do you know
02:28:40 recommendation no right do you know whether the tmo ever acted on recommendations such as this
02:28:45 this uh before uh it embarked on undertaking the grenfell tower project
02:28:52 what i remember being told is that after the improvement plan there was a new chief executive robert black brought in and there were considerable efforts made
02:29:03 and there were considerable efforts made to
02:29:03 to strengthen the effectiveness of the board
02:29:07 board and indeed the executive team and i do remember during my time as the cabinet member that for example the tmo
02:29:18 the tmo were working on new procurement frameworks and that side of things but i don't remember this specifically or what happened between this time
02:29:26 this time in 2010 2009. to be clear you say the cabinet member was that in respect of corporate or in respect of housing and regeneration um so do you mean when i was cabinet
02:29:38 um so do you mean when i was cabinet member for civil society not when you say corporations so i'm just seeking to understand your question you say during my time as cabinet member i meant cabinet member for housing right and could you just give us the
02:29:49 right and could you just give us the years please from 2013 to 2017. very well so upon becoming cabinet member for housing in 2013 first of all tell me if this is wrong but i take it that you didn't see this
02:30:00 but i take it that you didn't see this report
02:30:01 report no uh did you did you uh discuss um whether these recommendations had been carried into effect or the still the stage at which these
02:30:13 or the still the stage at which these recommendations i did not know about these recommendations so i didn't discuss them do you know what the role of the hpsc was in overseeing the implementation of these recommendations
02:30:26 no i do not and presumably the same would apply to your own role as cabinet member for housing
02:30:35 sorry what's your question my question is i i'm assuming you personally i in any role um did not know what what the role of any of those committees was in
02:30:46 committees was in overseeing the implementation of these recommendations not these i did not know about these specific recommendations or this report until just now right can we then look at another document please which
02:30:57 document please which is inq three zeros one four six seven one
02:31:05 what i'm showing you is the chartered institute of public finance and accountancy's 2016 document called delivering good governance is this a doc it's quite a striking
02:31:17 is this a doc it's quite a striking looking document uh is it is this a document you you've seen before or not i don't remember it i don't remember it if we just look at page 90 in it
02:31:28 if we just look at page 90 in it and look at paragraph 6.9 um it sits within the part of this report about scrutiny and it says principles of
02:31:39 about scrutiny and it says principles of good scrutiny and it says in within that um the principle
02:31:44 principle that the the center for public scrutiny uh has established four core principles of good scrutiny provides critical friend challenge to executive policy makers and decision takers
02:31:54 takers enables the voice and concerns of the public is carried out by independent-minded counsellors who lead and own the process drives important i'm sorry i'll read that again drives improvement
02:32:05 that again drives improvement in public services were you aware of those principles broadly speaking those those are the principles that i thought security committee
02:32:16 committee was meant to do yes how did you come to that understanding juno i think it was largely through in in when i became a counselor as i've
02:32:27 in in when i became a counselor as i've said
02:32:27 said it didn't have very formal training and induction for new counselors it was more a rather old-fashioned view of learning through experience and almost a process
02:32:41 through experience and almost a process of
02:32:41 of osmosis learning from the more experienced counselors i see so you would say that you absorb these principles through experience and hands-on
02:32:50 hands-on application rather than being taught them that's exactly
02:32:55 from what you could observe were others around you other members for example of the hpsc the housing and property scrutiny committee aware of these principles
02:33:09 i would say there were certainly i i wouldn't want to speak for all members but i would be confident that there were members on the housing and property scrutiny inventory at least when i attended who um would
02:33:22 at least when i attended who um would have
02:33:23 have been trying to do all of those things right but can we take it from your evidence so far that this document wasn't
02:33:29 wasn't shown to or circulated to members of cabinet or other councillors in 2016 or after i don't remember it being sent to me and
02:33:41 i don't remember it being sent to me and if it was sent to me i don't remember um reading it in any detail
02:33:46 detail can we next go please to rbk3063764
02:33:52 this is a document which is appended to the june 2012 rbkc constitution under part 5 d and it's called the local
02:34:03 under part 5 d and it's called the local code of corporate governance and just looking at that page on the screen is that familiar to you
02:34:14 um it's not something that i have a detailed recollection of all right
02:34:20 right uh you don't remember when you might have seen it before no right is it possible that you never have in fact seen this document uh
02:34:31 have in fact seen this document uh if it was attached to the constitution from time to time as uh i felt it necessary i would have looked up parts of the constitution but it was not a document which i read
02:34:42 but it was not a document which i read from cover to cover at a regular um regular intervals no i understand that um can i take it then that it wasn't a document that was ever circulated to counselors and
02:34:53 circulated to counselors and with an instruction to familiarize themselves with its text not as i remember can we look at page four
02:35:00 four please
02:35:04 principle four
02:35:07 and principle four is taking informed and transparent decisions which are subject to effective scrutiny and managing risk and looking at the
02:35:18 and managing risk and looking at the first bullet point it says this the royal borough develops and maintains an effective scrutiny function which encourages constructive challenge and enhances the authority's performance
02:35:30 and enhances the authority's performance overall and that of any organization for which it is responsible
02:35:37 were you familiar with with that as a principle
02:35:40 principle i would say that is a principle that yes councillors who were on scrutinities uh were aware of and familiar with and would you wonder did you understand that principle to have applied to scrutiny of the tmos
02:35:53 have applied to scrutiny of the tmos activities
02:35:57 um i don't know whether i would have thought of the tmo as an organization depends what means by for which
02:36:08 for which the council is responsible for but um i my experience from attending housing and property scrutiny scrutiny committee was that the scrutiny member
02:36:18 member the committee members did indeed ask questions
02:36:22 questions and challenge the performance of the tmo
02:36:28 if we look at the fourth bullet point down
02:36:32 it says ensures that effective i'm sorry i think it's the fifth in fact it ensures that effective transparent and accessible arrangements are in place for dealing with complaints were you aware of that principle
02:36:46 um i i knew that both the council and the tmo
02:36:51 the tmo had a uh well set out complaints process and did you understand that that applied to the tmo as well as
02:37:02 that that applied to the tmo as well as to rbkc i was aware that the tmo had a three-stage complaint process as i've said in my witness statement yes and then just below that it says ensures that those making decisions
02:37:14 ensures that those making decisions whether for the authority or the partnership are provided with information that is founded on good quality data and fit for the purpose relevant timely and gives clear explanations of technical issues and
02:37:25 explanations of technical issues and their implications again can be taken that you were aware of that as a governing corporate governance principle yes definitely we the decision makers
02:37:36 yes definitely we the decision makers i.e
02:37:37 i.e councillors who are on the cabinet um
02:37:42 relied on and also challenged the advice that was provided to us by professional officers right and two bullet points below that ensures that risk management is embedded into the culture
02:37:53 into the culture of the authority with members and managers at all levels recognizing that risk management is part of their job again were you familiar with that principle
02:38:03 i think broadly speaking broadly did you understand that specifically to apply to uh fire safety risks
02:38:12 well i and as much as i i wouldn't necessarily look at that as being specific to fire safety but risks relating to fire safety
02:38:23 relating to fire safety would have fallen under that general umbrella principle
02:38:32 yes now can we then go please to another part of the constitution
02:38:40 rbk3035012 and i'm going to show you article six
02:38:46 this is entitled scrutiny committees and it sits within part two of the constitution and at 601 it's entitled general remit a general duties of scrutiny
02:38:57 remit a general duties of scrutiny committees and i'll just read these to you scrutiny committees are empowered to one review and scrutinize decisions made or actions taken in connection with the discharge of any of the council's functions
02:39:09 of the council's functions two recommend and report to the full council including committees of the council
02:39:13 council or the executive including advisory groups in connection with the discharge of any of the council's functions three consider any matter affecting the royal borough or its inhabitants four exercise the right to call in for
02:39:24 four exercise the right to call in for reconsideration decisions made but not yet
02:39:27 yet implemented by the executive and five hold an inquiry into a matter which has been the subject of a report from the monitoring officer or the chief financial officer and if we please turn to page two at the
02:39:39 and if we please turn to page two at the very foot of that page we look at article 6.03 housing and property scrutiny committee membership 11 members terms of reference you can see to
02:39:50 terms of reference you can see to scrutinize and then over the page one at the top of the screen there the provision planning management and performance of all housing services two any partnerships associated with the
02:40:01 two any partnerships associated with the delivery of housing three social housing regeneration and the housing generation program for supporting people services five the tenant management organization six housing strategy housing stock
02:40:13 six housing strategy housing stock finance and development seven corporate asset management just looking at that is it right that the committee's role included review and scrutiny of decisions first of all
02:40:25 decisions first of all made in connection with the discharge of any of rbkc's functions to do with the provision of housing yes yes and is it correct that the committee's role included review and scrutiny of consideration of any matter affecting
02:40:37 consideration of any matter affecting our bkc or its inhabitants that's what it says and provision of and planning management and performance of all housing services yes yes and also the tmo as you can see
02:40:49 yes yes and also the tmo as you can see yes yes with with all of that have included the safety and particularly the fire safety of residents and buildings managed by the tmo yes yes now is it right that the
02:41:03 yes yes now is it right that the su the committee itself had no decision-making powers but could inquire discuss and question actions of our bkc um cabinet rbkc officers and the tmo correct and and is it right
02:41:17 and the tmo correct and and is it right that as a
02:41:18 that as a a necessary limitation on that function uh was that the committee could only inquire discussing question based on information that it was given
02:41:28 yes or asked for yeah and then given asked for an either asked for or not asked for but nonetheless given yes you couldn't act without information correct may seem obvious as a question but do you accept that i do yes
02:41:40 but do you accept that i do yes was the housing and property scrutiny committee empowered to overturn an executive decision that related to housing
02:41:48 housing no as it just said it could call in a decision which had not yet been implemented and asked for the cabinet or decision maker to reconsider that decision
02:41:59 that decision did the hpsc ever refer or uh or exercise its powers to refer back to cabinet any decision concerning particularly the grenfell tower project
02:42:11 tower project not that i remember while i was cabinet member for housing as far as you're aware did the hpsc ever raise any issues with cabinet relating to the
02:42:20 to the grenfell tower project
02:42:23 well not in terms of the decisions that cabinet made about grenfell tab but those decisions as i said my witness statement were really limited to agreeing the budget
02:42:36 really limited to agreeing the budget originally and then the two increases in budget
02:42:38 budget yes i think the answer to my question is is no
02:42:42 is no hpsc never raised any issues with cabinet
02:42:47 cabinet not with cabinet that i record nearly and as far as your web did the hpsc ever raise any issue concerning fire safety specifically with you as the cabinet member
02:42:58 cabinet member for housing property and regeneration whether in relation to grenfell tower or any
02:43:04 any uh property stock they they did frequently um in my during my time as cabinet member asked questions about fire safety
02:43:15 asked questions about fire safety especially there was an issue which repeatedly went to the scrutiny committee about um having the the fire doors across uh the hra stock and there was an
02:43:26 across uh the hra stock and there was an issue around um i think it was confirmed quite early on in my time as cabinet member that all the tenanted properties that had their doors replaced that they were compliant but there was an ongoing issue about
02:43:37 but there was an ongoing issue about some
02:43:38 some leaseholder doors yes so that that controversy if i can put it like that that was raised by hpsc with us cabinet member
02:43:49 hpsc with us cabinet member while i was the cabin member i wouldn't necessarily say it was raised with me but it was raised um by the scrutiny committee while i was the cabinet member yes can we then look please at
02:44:01 yes can we then look please at the statement of councillor sam makover it's this is rbk3029923 and i'd like to go first of all to page one to show you what this document is
02:44:13 one to show you what this document is it's his witness statement to the inquiry and at page nine if we can turn to that he says this at paragraph 40. [Applause]
02:44:24 page nine i think that's it page under the heading fire safety paragraph forty rbkc burrow-wide scrutiny of fire safety falls under the community safety and
02:44:35 falls under the community safety and emergency planning the constitution article 6 paragraph 6 or article 605 provides that this was within
02:44:44 within the remit of the cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee i understand that the bara fire commander participated at the meetings of that scrutiny committee
02:44:53 committee do you agree with him that that borough-wide scrutiny of fire safety was within the remit of the cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee i think that is probably correct was
02:45:06 i think that is probably correct was that always the case so far as you can recollect during your time as councillor so what i do when i was the cabinet member for civil society um community safety
02:45:18 um community safety fell under uh the remit of that cabinet position
02:45:23 position and that community safety did include liaising with the the london fire brigade and el fipa um and uh i would have attended the cabinet and corporate services
02:45:34 the cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee at that time so i do remember for example in those two years there were there were issues around potential closures of fire stations in the borough which
02:45:45 fire stations in the borough which i wrote to el thieper about and tried lobbying against um so in in that regard it would have fallen under the cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee i i don't think that
02:45:57 scrutiny committee i i don't think that means that housing and property schooling committee were not
02:46:01 were not um it wasn't within their remit to be able to ask questions about fire safety within
02:46:06 within the hra stock right and and the you said you when you were in the um uh you were acting as as a cabinet member for civil society what were those
02:46:18 member for civil society what were those years
02:46:19 years 2011 to 2013. that's 11 to 13. and just to be clear so that we're clear um you were a member of the cabinet and corporate services committee that was 2010 and 2011. yes
02:46:31 that was 2010 and 2011. yes so so i was not so that i was they didn't overlap they didn't overlap you couldn't be a member of the cabinet and sit on a scrutiny committee no well quite
02:46:40 quite okay so i understand it so you were on uh
02:46:44 uh two i follow you were not i think a a member of the cabinet corporate services scrutiny committee not while i was on the cabinet no so i was up until april 2011
02:46:56 was up until april 2011 and then i was appointed a member of the cabinet as cabinet member for civil society and i stopped being a member of the cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee correct i understand that were there any counsellors who sat on both scrutiny
02:47:08 counsellors who sat on both scrutiny committees simultaneously uh cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee and um the hpsc that could have been i can't remember if they were looking uh then please at that part of
02:47:21 looking uh then please at that part of the constitution to which um councillor makava refers and this is rbk3035012 at page four paragraph or article six zero
02:47:34 paragraph or article six zero five um
02:47:37 five um if you look so can i just look above yes look above look at page three then where it starts thank you
02:47:46 and under terms of reference business handled by the full cabinet which does not fall within the remit of another scrutiny committee and then if we turn to where i want to go page three uh page four i'm sorry
02:47:57 page three uh page four i'm sorry um under sub article four if you look at roman 14 you can see drugs community safety and
02:48:09 you can see drugs community safety and emergency planning so did fire safety fall within the ambit of uh of that committee it looks like it did
02:48:20 yes i agree it looks like a dirty but yes
02:48:23 yes so do you recall the hpsc ever raising an issue with you concerning fire safety in our bkc stock apart i suppose from the far the leasehold of fire doors
02:48:34 leasehold of fire doors question well i remember fire safety across the hra was something that was reported
02:48:40 reported to the hpsc um at least once if not twice a year in the annual and media reviews that the um
02:48:51 annual and media reviews that the um housing department presented to the scrutiny committee right and there were there were standing items within those reports on fire safety across the hra stock as
02:49:03 on fire safety across the hra stock as managed by the tma and what about within the cabin and corporate services scrutiny committee was there a similar reporting system
02:49:11 not with regards i don't believe the council owns stock in the hra i see can we go to your first witness statement please at page 7 and look at paragraph 30 together
02:49:25 you say there uh
02:49:29 that in the third line in relation to the tma's performance against its duties and responsibilities as the council council's managing agent we rely primarily on housing officers as professionals in their field who
02:49:41 as professionals in their field who monitored the tmo against the requirements of the mma to check and keep the cabinet and scrutiny committee informed of any potential problems or shortcomings in return councillors were able to question officers about their
02:49:53 able to question officers about their findings
02:49:53 findings we did not rely exclusively on reports directly from the tmo because any such direct information was supplemented with the assessment and advice of the council's housing department
02:50:05 department do you know which which officers drafted reports for committee meetings well i they would normally go out in the name of laura johnson as the director of
02:50:16 of laura johnson as the director of housing so i assumed that she i don't know whether she actually drafted them all but she was i'm sure confident that they were correct and was willing to put her name to them
02:50:27 name to them how often were reports of housing officers such as those with which bore ms johnson's name at the at the bottom questioned by members of the committee
02:50:38 questioned by members of the committee the hpsc i mean i think they would be regularly questioned that were the annual and mid-year tmo performance reports which were sent up to committee ever questioned by the hpsc
02:50:51 questioned by the hpsc i am i'm pretty sure they were i don't remember exactly now but they they would have been uh yes can you think can you think of a
02:51:02 uh yes can you think can you think of a specific example when that took place during your time observing the hp the as council member for housing property and regeneration
02:51:11 it's very hard for me now to try and remember
02:51:15 remember specific discussions around specific agenda items from meetings which happened uh how many years ago it is now i'm afraid i can't give a specific example
02:51:27 afraid i can't give a specific example of that specific question on that specific agenda item from one of those specific
02:51:32 specific meetings no i mean do you remember any occasion on which you would ever call for an examination of or a spot check of any underlying data on which those reports were based
02:51:47 on which those reports were based uh personally i took the view that i was relying on the report produced by the director of housing um because i was confident
02:52:01 because i was confident that she and her department were checking the information that was being provided to them by the tma so what were you scrutinizing
02:52:11 or what was being scrutinized sorry can what well the role of the scrutiny committee is to scrutinize if you're not asking just to spot check the underlying data to make sure that it adds up to the
02:52:23 to make sure that it adds up to the conclusions which have been reported to you what were you actually scrutinizing remember i was not on the screen committee that's why i rephrased my question what was the scrutiny scrutiny committee
02:52:34 was the scrutiny scrutiny committee scrutinizing the scrutiny i mean they did ask questions i can't remember of that specific item on the agenda but they frequently ask questions of the tmo and the housing
02:52:45 and the housing department for example uh wanting updates on the fire doors wanting to know what's happening
02:52:53 happening what happens if a leaseholder refuses to upgrade it who's responsible for enforcing that there was a i remember there was some sort of disagreement whether it was the london fire brigade or the council who had to
02:53:05 fire brigade or the council who had to do it
02:53:06 do it trying to get to the bottom of those sorts of questions yes i see can we look at uh rbk3033744
02:53:16 this is uh let's have a look at page one of this to start with this is the first page of mr marsh councillor marshall's witness statement to the inquiry and i'll just show you page two at the
02:53:27 and i'll just show you page two at the bottom at paragraph 11. he says this if the committee disagreed with a cabinet member or officers it could not take further action other than to continue to raise the matter in public at its meetings
02:53:38 matter in public at its meetings the scrutiny process could be frustrating because we were often given information or told about something after the event we were reliant on officers giving us comprehensive information
02:53:50 comprehensive information on the activities in their departments i had almost no independent support our ability to scrutinize was also constrained by the large number of matters within our purview which had to be covered in
02:54:01 our purview which had to be covered in six meetings a year typically of two hours length each this high level approach is apparent in the minutes
02:54:09 uh first of all do you agree with what counselor marshall says there
02:54:18 uh he's better placed to make those judgments having been chairman of the scrutiny committee than i
02:54:25 i than i am and i i wouldn't uh want to challenge particularly that view so you would right very if that's very fair can we look at see how
02:54:36 look at see how uh councillor mackover puts it can we go back to his witness statement please page two and go to paragraph nine [Music]
02:54:47 uh he says there sorry my
02:54:51 my thing hasn't been caught up page two paragraph nine i'm still on councillor marshalls
02:55:00 marshalls yes rbk rbk30 is 29923
02:55:16 yes rbk rbk30 is 29923 page two paragraph nine it says the hspc i think that should be the hpsc met between four and six times a year and had no research or support staff
02:55:27 and had no research or support staff papers were generally provided by the executive and the housing and property teams
02:55:31 teams the governance team distributed the agenda and took the minutes at around two and a half hours per meeting there was a strict practical limit to what the hpsc could do members did not receive any documents
02:55:42 members did not receive any documents other than those provided in the pack of papers for each meeting members would receive these a week in advance to read and form the source of scrutiny questions do you agree uh with what he says there this is
02:55:55 uh with what he says there this is councillor uh yes i would just i'm from again i wasn't a chairman of a scrutiny committee so but i thought that the chairman of
02:56:07 but i thought that the chairman of security committees there was a scrutiny steering group which consisted of the chairman of the different scrutiny committees and there was
02:56:15 there was uh some resource available there and they
02:56:19 they it was possible for them to ask for more officer resource if they needed it but generally i think those are
02:56:25 those are fair points right were these limitations to your knowledge ever the subject of discussion or complaint
02:56:32 complaint among the members of the hpsc
02:56:38 councillor martial as the chairman of the hpsc
02:56:42 the hpsc um i remember thinking he was a very good and effective chairman of the security committee because he um he cared and
02:56:53 um he cared and took a lot of time to read papers question them he made a point in my capacity as cabinet member of the corporate property team which had an awful lot of decisions
02:57:05 awful lot of decisions going to the scrutiny committee and when they were put on the forward plan he um asked the relevant officers in that department to kind of send more detailed explanations of what these key decisions
02:57:17 explanations of what these key decisions were so that he could better review them before they go on the forward plan so i think he was he was you know effective and proactive um
02:57:29 effective and proactive um but you know if he feels he he still didn't have sufficient resources or time to do as much as you'd like to have done then um again i wouldn't challenge that yes i
02:57:40 um again i wouldn't challenge that yes i mean for example let's just focus on one part of what he says this is councillor mackover he says that the hpsc had no research or support staff
02:57:52 staff first of all is he right about that
02:57:56 if he says that i'm i'm sure he is right and was was that ever the subject of discussion or complaint from what you could observe among the members of the hpsc i don't remember
02:58:10 i don't remember that being the case and i think that if the scrutiny steering group the group of councillors chairing scrutiny committees had requested
02:58:21 had requested some specific resource i think that would
02:58:24 would either was available or would have been made available and can you tell us which scrutiny committee was responsible this game back on a point from before was was
02:58:35 on a point from before was was responsible for scrutinizing health and safety matters
02:58:40 um i wouldn't want to um claim any expertise on answering that question but from what
02:58:51 on answering that question but from what you have shown me health and safety more generally across the the council's functions i would have thought would be scrutinized by the cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee
02:59:02 committee yes but um health and safety as it specifically concerned council-owned properties um could have been scrutinized by the housing and property
02:59:13 scrutinized by the housing and property security would you say it could have been
02:59:15 been i i i personally would have thought it would fall more within the remit of hpsc than cabinet and corporate services
02:59:23 services right uh was there a clear to your recollection was there a clear allocation of scrutiny responsibility for tmo stock
02:59:34 for tmo stock so far as health and safety was concerned as between the hpsc and the cabinet and corporate services scrutiny committee i think that on the whole there were
02:59:45 i think that on the whole there were quite clear distinctions between the remits of the different scrutiny committees i think the one which did sometimes cause uh
02:59:56 did sometimes cause uh whether confusion is the right word or a lack of clarity was the cabinet and corporate services scrutiny because it had uh potentially such
03:00:05 such you know it was scrutinizing the cabinet so it could claim to be scrutinizing any decision that goes to cabinet
03:00:12 cabinet and the corporate services is such a broad remit so i think there could be a lack of clarity there but again
03:00:22 but again my view was that the housing and property scrutiny committee was responsible for not just the council homes
03:00:33 not just the council homes under the hra but also the council property assets more broadly yes thank you mr chairman is that a convenient moment yeah if that suits you i think it is yes thank you um well mr filling melon we're going to
03:00:45 um well mr filling melon we're going to have a break now so we can all get some lunch
03:00:47 lunch we'll resume please at two o'clock and i have to ask you as i have asked all witnesses please don't talk to anyone else about your evidence or anything relating to it over the break okay thank you very much would you
03:00:59 break okay thank you very much would you give the usher then
03:01:13 thank you two o'clock then please
03:01:30 you