Amanda Johnson of RBKC on monitoring TMO performance, fire safety oversight, and management agreement protocols
00:00:19 yes mr clear you have another witness for us afternoon sir yes i do may i call amanda johnson thank you
00:00:38 good afternoon miss johnson afternoon i understand you'd like to take the oath yes please um have you got the testament there
00:00:45 there yes take it in your right hand please and read the words on the screen i swear by almighty god that the evidence i shall give shall be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:00:55 truth thank you very much and sit down and make yourself comfortable
00:01:04 all right there's some water there if you need it thank you yes mr clear when you're ready thanks sir um first of all would you mind confirming your name for the record amanda johnson ms johnson thank you very
00:01:15 amanda johnson ms johnson thank you very much for
00:01:16 much for coming to give evidence today it's much appreciated now if at any time you have any difficulty understanding the question i've asked please say so and i'll either repeat it or rephrase it
00:01:27 or rephrase it secondly if at any stage you'd like a break please don't hesitate to say so thirdly if you could keep your voice up for the transcriber so that she can
00:01:38 transcriber so that she can capture everything you say and capture it accurately now um the final thing i should say that um it helps not to nod or shake your head
00:01:46 head the reason being the transcriber has has to catch
00:01:49 to catch uh your words yes or no yes now you've given a number of statements to the inquiry but i only like to ask questions relation to two of those statements and they'll appear in sequence on the screen
00:02:01 they'll appear in sequence on the screen in front of you and the first one is rbk treble zero double three seven one nine
00:02:12 and the second one is rbk trouble zero five double four six four
00:02:20 have you read both of those statements recently yes i have and can you confirm that their contents are true the content is true and have you discussed your statements your evidence with anyone else before coming here today
00:02:31 coming here today no thank you now the first questions i'd like to
00:02:35 like to discuss with you today relate to your professional background and your training
00:02:39 training now first of all looking at your qualifications and training before you joined rbkc is it right that you have a master's degree in housing from the lse yes and did the course cover overseeing
00:02:51 yes and did the course cover overseeing tenant management organizations no did the course cover any aspects of health and safety and in particular fire safety in high-rise residential buildings no there was a maintenance section
00:03:04 no there was a maintenance section repairs but not compliance am i right in thinking that you've had a 29-year career in housing yes and before joining rbkc in 2005
00:03:15 yes and before joining rbkc in 2005 did you have any role overseeing naam's length management organization
00:03:21 have you ever had any oversight or a role in exercising oversight over an almost fire safety or health and safety remit no
00:03:33 no now before becoming the head of housing commissioning at rbkc in 2011 um you'd been a supporting people manager at the london borough of barking and dagenham is that right that's correct and thereafter you held
00:03:45 that's correct and thereafter you held the same role at rbkc between 2005 and 2010. yes now what were your responsibilities as a supporting people manager at rbkc it was commissioning and performance and
00:03:57 it was commissioning and performance and contract management so scrutiny providers in the supported housing sector and did you have any dealings with the tmo at all before coming sorry at all before becoming head of
00:04:09 sorry at all before becoming head of what was then called performance and partnerships yes i did i was a member of the housing management team so i was aware of the tmo
00:04:17 tmo and what they were doing i also commissioned the community alarm service which
00:04:22 which is provided by the tmo was provided by the tmo
00:04:27 the tmo now were you appointed the temporary head of performance and partnerships in 2010
00:04:31 2010 yes and during the appointment process were you asked if you had any experience in overseeing tenant management organizations i cannot remember
00:04:40 remember can you remember whether you were asked any questions about your health health and safety or fire safety expertise i don't believe i was when you were appointed the temporary head of performance and partnerships
00:04:52 head of performance and partnerships were you given any training to assist you carry out your obligations overseeing the tmo governance training i can remember that and what did that involve that was just
00:05:04 and what did that involve that was just looking at the governance arrangements with organizations such as the tmo how the board worked that type of thing um i also did some health and safety
00:05:15 um i also did some health and safety training which which was done at a corporate level by the council and were you given any fire safety training no did the general health and safety training involve any aspect of fire
00:05:27 training involve any aspect of fire safety
00:05:28 safety or the management of fire safety it would involve some aspect of fire safety can you remember what that was now it would be about evacuation plans
00:05:42 it would be about evacuation plans it would be about responsibilities under the reform order legislation i also did quite a lot of practical training when i was a frontline manager in terms of managing fire alarms testing
00:05:55 in terms of managing fire alarms testing smoke detectors that type of thing so some of the training was operational and some of it was more legislation based
00:06:02 based can you remember now when you were trained on evacuation plans whether that's subject matter court personal emergency evacuation plans no did not include that did you attend a
00:06:15 did not include that did you attend a presentation uh concerned with the latino house fire provided by david crowder of the bre on the 10th of january 2014. no i was on leave that day had you heard of the fire at lachnal
00:06:27 had you heard of the fire at lachnal house on the 3rd of july 2009 yes i have and were you aware of the coroner's recommendations arising from the inquest following the fire at lachnal house i would have seen them at the time
00:06:38 seen them at the time legal would have informed us
00:06:43 did your review of the recommendations made by the coroner at latino caused you to change your practices your or your approach to exercising oversight over the tmo
00:06:55 over the tmo no and why not i think that was an error on my part i think we should have reviewed the schedule
00:07:03 schedule to the mma that focused on health and safety
00:07:06 safety and reviewed that document and to take into account those recommendations thank you we'll come on to that later can you help us to why the team's name changed from performance and
00:07:17 changed from performance and partnerships to housing commissioning i don't think there was anything specific it was just we commissioned across a range of housing services did the substance of the team's role change with the name no i don't believe
00:07:30 change with the name no i don't believe that it did when did your role as head become permanent
00:07:36 permanent including management of the tmo contract and that was at the end of 2010
00:07:43 when you were appointed to the temporary or permanent position did you receive any briefing whether in the form of a handover or otherwise regarding historic issues and concerns relating to the governance of the tma
00:07:54 relating to the governance of the tma yes
00:07:55 yes and who gave that briefing um pam sedgwick
00:07:59 sedgwick did a handover and also laura johnson who was my manager dealing with the briefing that pam sedgwick gave can you give the id the gist of that handover to the panel now what did she say to you
00:08:11 now what did she say to you i can't remember a lot about it i can i can remember a particular focus on the emb
00:08:17 emb because there'd been issues with governance in the emb that's the estate manager that's correct and also there'd been issues of governance with the tmo board and they'd been served an improvement notice and can you remember now what
00:08:29 notice and can you remember now what i apologies like i spoke across you um it was around the governance that was the main concern governance with the tmo board and remember now in a more
00:08:40 tmo board and remember now in a more detailed way what the precise concerns were about the governance of the tmo board
00:08:44 board i understand that um the former chief executive
00:08:48 executive had left and there was a new temporary chief executive that covered another borough as well i understand there was some personality clashes
00:08:57 clashes between that person and the board and that they got played out in the board meetings can you recall any concerns regarding the handling of complaints for example or resident engagement matters
00:09:08 engagement matters not at that stage no you also referred to a handover given to you by laura johnson
00:09:15 johnson can you now remember the gist of what she said to you um it was at the same meeting it was laura johnson and pam sedgwick and again the things that stick in my mind are the governance issues in relation to the emb
00:09:27 relation to the emb and the tmo were you given any particular instructions or direction as to any particular errors they wanted you to concentrate on in your role no
00:09:42 can i now turn to the housing commissioning team itself and the structure of the department and team
00:09:49 team and if we could go first of all to some organograms which just set out who was where and first of all i'd like to go to rbk triple zero double zero two seven eight
00:10:05 triple zero double zero two seven eight now this is a series of organograms provided by our bkc showing the structure of the housing department from 2010 to 2017 and we see there the department as at
00:10:16 and we see there the department as at 2017. could we turn to page eight within this clip of documents which is the organogram from 2010. now the organogram shows the structure
00:10:27 now the organogram shows the structure of the housing department in 2010 so when you were appointed interim and then permanent head of housing commissioning we can see you on the far left-hand side and the center is that right
00:10:38 and the center is that right yes and we can see that your role as head of supporting people is separate too and distinct from the other teams is that a fair comment to make yes that's correct
00:10:49 fair comment to make yes that's correct and
00:10:49 and looking at that scheme you supervised christopher scott is that right yes i did now just to the right of the center of the organogram there's
00:11:01 of the center of the organogram there's a box entitled vacant with the title strategy and regeneration manager and we can see that that role supervised celia chaliskan
00:11:10 chaliskan jane trathue and william hogan is it right
00:11:13 right that celia chaliscan was responsible for managing
00:11:16 managing the contract with the tma yes it is tmo yes
00:11:20 yes now before the creation of the housing commissioning team was it chalice and trafuian hogan who were
00:11:27 were primarily responsible for managing that contract with the tmo no it was celia
00:11:36 we can see on the extreme right of this organogram that the head of housing position is vacant and in the center we can see that the position of chief housing officer is also vacant
00:11:48 chief housing officer is also vacant the head of housing amanda gill who's on next left box to yours seems to have the same level of seniority as you amanda gill and pamela sedgwick is that right that's
00:12:01 pamela sedgwick is that right that's correct
00:12:03 correct now can we turn back now to page seven which is the 2011 version of the organogram i'll just let you have a quick read of that and ask you the question
00:12:15 that and ask you the question with that organogram correctly reflects the structure in 2011. celia should be reporting to me
00:12:27 that's the question i was going to ask you there was no time when she wasn't reporting to anyone no
00:12:35 now we don't need to go to it unless you'd like to but you say paragraph 11 of your first witness statement that you took on the role of head of performance and partnerships when the officer went on sabbatical
00:12:47 officer went on sabbatical in september 2010 and you took up that role temporarily is that right yes and we can see that pamela sedgwick now appears as the head of performance uh housing performance and partnerships
00:13:00 uh housing performance and partnerships is it therefore correct that for a time you were the head of housing commissioning and temporarily at least the head of performance and partnerships yes can you remember for how long you
00:13:11 yes can you remember for how long you were holding those due to two portfolios approximately one year and as we see in the center there laura johnson is now the head of housing was it her decision to restructure the
00:13:23 was it her decision to restructure the department to create the housing commissioning team yes it was can you help us as to why that decision was made i think laura felt there was synergy between what my team did in terms of
00:13:35 between what my team did in terms of contract and performance management and what was needed with the tmo which again was about managing performance and the contract was the decision prompted in any way
00:13:46 was the decision prompted in any way about concerns regarding the effectiveness of supervision of the tmo at that stage no now can we go back to page six in this clip which shows the structure
00:13:59 in this clip which shows the structure of the department in 2012 we see you there
00:14:02 there on the far left head of housing commissioning is that organogram correct there are two two or three officers missing
00:14:11 missing supported housing commissioners who reported to you yes there were three of them and we see here that uh celia chalaskan now appears to be reporting to you along
00:14:22 appears to be reporting to you along with christopher scott yes and just to make it clear she'd been reporting to you before 2012. yes
00:14:34 um it appears that a decision had been made to transfer um celia chaviscan from the regeneration team to housing commissioning first of all is that assumption correct and if so why was she moved
00:14:45 and if so why was she moved um i don't think she was moved i think that's incorrect
00:14:53 and is it fair to say that as you were senior challascan's line manager ultimately you were responsible for monitoring the performance of the tma yes now if we can go to page five
00:15:07 yes now if we can go to page five which is the 2013 organogram and again you'll see yourself same position head of housing commissioning and sila ciao scan
00:15:18 commissioning and sila ciao scan christopher scott and jonathan markham report to you and next to you on the organogram is roberto corsano yes is that organogram accurate um apart from the three commissioning
00:15:30 um apart from the three commissioning posts for supported housing that are missing that report to me as well and was that the basic structure that stayed in place up until june 2017 yes
00:15:43 now the next topic i'd like to discuss with you is the role of housing commissioning first of all who defined your team's role
00:15:52 um that would have been um laura johnson um it evolved over time in terms of its responsibility responsibilities now we haven't been
00:16:03 responsibilities now we haven't been able to find anything in writing but was the precise role of your team ever reduced to writing sorry can you say that again please we've tried to find a document in which
00:16:15 we've tried to find a document in which your team's role was set out and we can't was it ever set out in writing yes we had a service plan and there'd be a short introduction on each of the departments in that service plan
00:16:27 now um at paragraph 15 of your first witness statement which can be found at rbk
00:16:33 rbk treble zero double three seven one nine forward slash three
00:16:40 you say this the housing commissioning team has evolved over the years we do quite a cross-cutting role and in some respects we pick up various things which do not fit neatly elsewhere
00:16:51 which do not fit neatly elsewhere in the housing department mainly our role involves specifying services procuring services and contract performance and management now
00:17:00 now by contract performance and management are you referring there to management of the contract with the tma one of the contracts yes
00:17:09 can you help us why did performance management of the tmo sit with your team because it was seen as aligned with contract management my team were responsible for performance
00:17:21 my team were responsible for performance so celia led on the kpis and collected those from the tmo so there was synergy in terms of that piece of work and did performance of the tmo go beyond
00:17:32 and did performance of the tmo go beyond commissioning housing yes in what respects well you had other officers
00:17:39 officers involved so for instance steve meller from the finance department would liaise with the tml on their finances you had health and safety that went by borough
00:17:50 borough they linked back into the tmo there was also the audit team that carried out the audit service so there wasn't just my team linking
00:18:01 so there wasn't just my team linking into the tmo um did you think or do you think it was unusual that there was not a team within the housing department that dealt solely with the tmo and its supervision
00:18:13 supervision i think the team could have been bigger um i think it's good for staff to work across different areas to gain experience and skills and different knowledge
00:18:25 knowledge so i don't know that you have to have the same staff dedicated to one contract all the time
00:18:32 but i think the issue was probably around the size of the team rather than who was in it
00:18:38 it what particular skills or experiences do you think you were missing in your team to deal with the management of the tmo the tmo is the only borough-wide tmo in the country
00:18:49 the country and with that we've delegated all of our responsibilities under the mma and i think that was too big given our responsibilities as a landlord
00:19:02 given our responsibilities as a landlord and when the capital programme team left the council and went over to the tmo we lost some of our technical expertise and i think we should have retained some
00:19:13 and i think we should have retained some of that for oversight of the tmo
00:19:18 do you think you lacked any expertise or experience in the team in health and safety and in particular fire safety matters
00:19:26 matters i think it would have been useful to have had more training and we did have a health and safety corporate department that we could go to if we wanted advice so that that resource was
00:19:37 advice so that that resource was available
00:19:37 available in the council to supplement our knowledge did you ever have cause to ask for
00:19:42 for greater resources to allow you to manage the tmo effectively and efficiently
00:19:49 no i did question whether or not we should bring the cap capital programme back in house because of the changing work of the tmo but no i didn't question that were there any instances where you
00:20:01 any instances where you felt the need to seek the specialist advice of your in-house health and safety team
00:20:10 i think the issue with the leasehold of fire doors we may have asked for some input for that area
00:20:19 anything more than that that you can remember now i can't remember anything else
00:20:25 now we don't need to go to it unless you'd like to but between paragraphs 20 and 25 of your first statement you set out the particular strands of work that the housing commissioning team did
00:20:36 did and i think it would be useful if we go through each of those five strands now first of all there was the general needs commissioning which was delegated to the tmo is that right that's correct and that entailed overseeing
00:20:48 and that entailed overseeing implementation of the mma is that correct yes now you say in the fourth line of paragraph 113 of your first statement that the tmo was the only borrowed tmo
00:20:59 that the tmo was the only borrowed tmo and i think you've just confirmed the accuracy of that um was celia chattascan the only officer specifically tasked on the general needs housing function which had been delegated to the tmo
00:21:11 which had been delegated to the tmo historically there had been two officers and in 2016 um the second officer requested voluntary redundancy and wasn't replaced
00:21:23 wasn't replaced and presumably wasn't replaced for financial reasons yes it delivered a saving in the department and did you press for a replacement officer to assist and
00:21:36 a replacement officer to assist and support
00:21:36 support celia chaliskan and her duties not at that point i mean i supported celia a lot with the mma did you ask for a second person at all before the fire
00:21:47 before the fire no did you have any concerns whether celia chana scan um was overburdened or struggling in any way with her workload and managing the tmo
00:21:56 tmo there was nothing to indicate she was struggling she never said anything to you
00:22:00 you no
00:22:03 do you think the fact that from 2016 onwards at least that she was the only officer
00:22:09 officer placed significant practical limitations on the level and detail of the scrutiny that could be brought to bear to the tmo's actions well she was the only dedicated officer there was also myself
00:22:20 there was also myself and other colleagues working with the tmo so again steve miller had input through the hra business planning and through the asset management meetings and the regeneration team were then working closely
00:22:32 team were then working closely with the tmo on feasibility studies and stock condition data to inform future plans so i think the resources
00:22:39 resources have moved more over to the regeneration side
00:22:43 side now turning now to the second strand of your work which was um supported housing commissioning is that right that's correct and is it right that this aspect covered hostels refuges those with mental health
00:22:55 hostels refuges those with mental health needs
00:22:55 needs and offender provision that's correct and is it correct that supported housing commissioning was not delegated to the tma no it's not it was delegated to it is delegated to a range of external
00:23:06 it is delegated to a range of external providers
00:23:08 providers did they include the tmo there was the community alarm contract with the tmo and there was a contract for two support officers
00:23:19 the third strand was temporary accommodation procurement is that right that's correct and does that right or did that primarily concern the housing of homeless people yes that was temporary accommodation for people who had made a homeless
00:23:31 people who had made a homeless application and am i right in thinking that the duty to house homeless people had not been delegated to the tmo under the mma no it had not been delegated to them they did manage some temporary accommodation in
00:23:43 temporary accommodation in hra stock but you know it was housing management now you say in the first sentence of paragraph 23 of your first statement that there were four members of staff
00:23:55 that there were four members of staff concerned with the procurement of temporary accommodation does it follow that the procurement of temporary accommodation was a large part of your team's work yes and did you see the provision of
00:24:06 and did you see the provision of temporary accommodation as being a more substantial area of your emit compared to management of the tma no even though there was a considerable considerably greater number of staff
00:24:18 considerably greater number of staff dedicated to temporary accommodation um i mean it was it was a bigger portfolio and that we procured accommodation for up to two thousand households um so the team needed to be um
00:24:30 um so the team needed to be um needed to be bigger um but i didn't feel feel that my input was disproportionate now the fourth strand was housing and employment manager is that right yes that's correct and did that element primarily concern
00:24:42 and did that element primarily concern working with people claiming benefits and helping them back to work that's correct
00:24:46 correct and is it right that one member of the housing commissioning team worked on that area of work yes and the fifth and final strand is and you say this at paragraph 25 of
00:24:57 is and you say this at paragraph 25 of your first statement that john morgan the complaints officer he reported to you yes he did why did complaints sit within housing commissioning um
00:25:12 trying to think john didn't always report to me i can't remember why he moved to me to the lay eye it looks a bit odd given that mr
00:25:24 it looks a bit odd given that mr malcolm's prime dealings presumably would have been with the director of housing or the director of housing needs what would you say to that lay observation um i would agree in that john markham reported directly
00:25:36 in that john markham reported directly to
00:25:37 to laura and amanda gill on complaints as most complaints related to temporary accommodation and i lime managed john walker so i we had one-to-ones appraisals
00:25:50 so i we had one-to-ones appraisals that type of thing but in terms of his day-to-day work he had more dealings with laura johnson and amanda girl so it flows from that that you had a limited role in dealing with the day-to-day and the practicalities
00:26:02 the day-to-day and the practicalities and substance of complaints thank you now if i could now turn to ask you some more detailed questions about cedar chaliscan yeah now at the time of the fight is it right that she'd worked for rbkc for something
00:26:14 that she'd worked for rbkc for something like more than 20 years yes and is it right that she had the role of monitoring the tmo for some five years before you assumed your position as head of housing commissioning in 2010
00:26:26 commissioning in 2010 i believe so and in practice was much of the day-to-day work of supervising the mma left to her yes now we don't need to go
00:26:38 left to her yes now we don't need to go to it unless you'd like to but at paragraph 40 of your first witness statement you say this in relation to key performance indicators celia would meet with the tmo to work through the kpis and agree with new
00:26:50 through the kpis and agree with new targets in each area did you ever attend those type of meetings kpi meetings with the tmo yes would you attend them regularly as a matter of routine or only
00:27:02 regularly as a matter of routine or only occasionally we had regular meetings with the tmo we called them hra meetings where we looked at key performance indicators we'd also meet with them to discuss the
00:27:13 we'd also meet with them to discuss the mid-year review and the final review also a five-year review and another one was due in 2018 so i i would be celia would do the background work
00:27:24 background work but i would be at those meetings can you help us what was the detail of your role in ensuring that kpis and targets in each area had been set appropriately um i
00:27:36 had been set appropriately um i would be ultimately responsible for making sure the performance agreement was in place and that's where the kpis were set for the tmo what training had silic challascan
00:27:47 what training had silic challascan received
00:27:48 received to allow her to do her job of supervising the tmo
00:27:53 i cannot recall from the time that i started to manage her she did a lot of training around coaching and mentoring that's what her focus was on during the time that eyeline managed her that's what i can remember did she ever
00:28:06 that's what i can remember did she ever ask you
00:28:08 ask you to secure resources to get her supplemental training to allow her to do her job in relation to supervision of the tmo we wanted the additional training on governance which we did commission
00:28:20 which we did commission and can you remember when you wanted that additional training on governance
00:28:27 it might have been around 2012 did you get it yes and did you receive that additional training each year or was it a one-off event in 2012 that was a one-off event um celia did do
00:28:40 that was a one-off event um celia did do some training around being a company secretary as well because we had a council owned company so she did some training around that was there any particular need or concern
00:28:51 was there any particular need or concern that prompted the one-off training in 2012
00:28:54 2012 um i think initially i think it was the the governance concerns um that existed in relation to the emb
00:29:04 and thereafter uh cydia charles gunn never
00:29:07 never sought additional training to allow her to do her job supervising the tma celia would attend routine mandatory training
00:29:15 training but i don't recall her seeking additional training she did do a procurement qualification as well now i remember okay now can i turn to the mma now
00:29:26 okay now can i turn to the mma now and in particular the difficulties with the mma that you discuss in your statement
00:29:30 statement now if we can go to paragraph 33 of your first witness statement which is rbk trouble zero double three seven one nine forward slash six
00:29:46 and in the second line of that paragraph you say this commenting on the document itself i didn't think the mma was very helpful or constructive it wasn't user friendly for landlords
00:29:58 it wasn't user friendly for landlords and i don't think it defined clearly enough the responsibilities between the two parties in the front of the document can you help us in what respects did the mma not clearly define the party's
00:30:09 not clearly define the party's respective responsibilities um i just don't think it was a useful document um it hadn't been updated regularly although we didn't
00:30:21 updated regularly although we didn't update it twice ourselves it was unwieldy to use if you wanted to end an arrangement with a tmo
00:30:30 a tmo it was a difficult process you would need the board approval so it was very difficult to deal with emergency situations and this is what we found when we ended the arrangement with the
00:30:40 the emb it took us several years to end that arrangement and i think under the right to manage legislation it favored almost over landlords
00:30:52 almost over landlords in respect of responsibilities that was the main problem i had with it i think ultimately what was more important in the mma is the schedules themselves
00:31:05 the schedules themselves the schedules set out the tmos operating procedures and actually that was that was what was more useful
00:31:18 more useful now you go on to say in paragraph 33 and it's seven lines down from the top of the paragraph uh this in the event of any concerns on the part of a local authority about how a tmo's exercising
00:31:30 a tmo's exercising functions the process prescribed by the mma involves a long series of steps which are both onerous and slow moving those the problems which you've just averted yes now between 2010 and the 14th of june
00:31:43 now between 2010 and the 14th of june 2017
00:31:44 2017 were you ever concerned that there was no proper mechanism or no proper arrangements for rbkc to raise performance related concerns with the tmo no you the mma was clear on that around
00:31:57 no you the mma was clear on that around the improvement plan and the serving the breach
00:31:59 breach notice
00:32:03 at any point did you consider it necessary to take any of the steps identified or prescribed in the in the mma
00:32:10 mma not since i took up the post no was there any time when you were deterred from taking action under the mma because of the onerous and time-consuming nature of the
00:32:21 time-consuming nature of the arrangements in place absolutely not
00:32:26 now could we turn to an email i'm afraid it's from 2011 it can be found at rbk trouble zero five zero four
00:32:33 zero four zero eight and it's an email chain from 2011 which started on the 4th of january 2011
00:32:41 2011 between celia chaliskan and the bryony willett
00:32:44 willett and anthony jonas of islington council you're not copied into the email chain and i'll just let you
00:32:53 cast your eye over the email at the bottom of the page and if necessary you can you see the other page but probably not i'm familiar with this you are yeah now if we go to page two
00:33:08 you can see at the bottom of that page the um the initial email um first of all were you aware that celia was talking to other local authorities about dealing with the practical difficulties
00:33:19 with the practical difficulties encountered in managing the mma i asked celia to do this and were there any particular concerns or needs that prompted that request to celia
00:33:31 celia 2011 again i think it was the governance problems we were having with the emb and was this just after you took over as the head of the team yeah
00:33:44 now you'll see in the original email
00:33:50 it says in the penultimate line we are renewing the knz tmos mma and i've been asked to look at the best practice and what else other councils tmos are doing so first of all you would be in the request she's referring to there
00:34:02 request she's referring to there now was rbkc considering a review of the mma
00:34:06 mma in 2011 can you remember yes we wanted to review the clauses and we needed to update some of the schedules
00:34:15 schedules there was another formal we commissioned a consultant to look at the mma to my advice on to advise on changes and what was his name or her name i'm sorry i can't remember his name
00:34:29 am i right in thinking that the revised mma
00:34:33 mma was not put into effect until 2015 yes can you help us then as to why the process took what appears to be four years plus there was a protracted process
00:34:44 was a protracted process between ourselves and the tmo company secretary
00:34:47 secretary there are a number of key legislation changes that came in around 2012 around cell financing and around the localism act so where to do quite a lot of work in the background
00:35:00 do quite a lot of work in the background in terms of updating the mma we would have updated it earlier but as we became aware of new legislation coming in we delayed updating it again so it was quite a protracted business
00:35:13 so it was quite a protracted business and it took some substantial time thank you now if we go back to the first page of this email we can see hopefully mr jonas's response then the
00:35:24 hopefully mr jonas's response then the bottom
00:35:25 bottom half of that page dated the 5th of january 2011 at 9 55. and it says in the third paragraph the mma even the latest version is a
00:35:36 the mma even the latest version is a very poor document and does not handle the relationship between the parties well it has caused us a lot of difficulties i would have thought that for the k and c tmo we would want a much better contract
00:35:47 contract more on the lines of an almo agreement now did celia challascan report mr jonas's opinion back to you can you remember
00:35:54 remember yes and that's when we agreed to commission an expert to look at the mma we've got your views we have mr jonas's views here was a negative view of the template mma
00:36:07 was a negative view of the template mma a widely held view amongst local authorities at that time i believe so
00:36:16 now mr jonas refers there to a much better contract along the lines of an almo agreement did rbkc have any bespoke contract or access to a precedent for an elmo
00:36:28 or access to a precedent for an elmo agreement
00:36:29 agreement we could have had access to an agreement it wouldn't need it to have been substantially different because of the level of delegation to the tmo i remember would you ever did you ever
00:36:41 i remember would you ever did you ever seek one out yes um celia would have sought one out but ultimately in this case we took the um we commissioned the expert to look at the document make
00:36:53 to look at the document make recommendations and did you evaluate the option of adapting an almo agreement during the course of this review process between 2011 2015.
00:37:05 between 2011 2015. celia would would have shared this with him
00:37:08 him and made him aware of the research that we've done
00:37:12 can you help us as to why the decision was made not to go down the almo route if i can put it like that i cannot remember the explicit decision now it was noted uh by mr jonas that
00:37:24 now it was noted uh by mr jonas that islington's tmos were very different in managing a limited amount of property and if we could go back to your first statement
00:37:33 statement in particular paragraph 112 and that can be found at rbk treble zero double three seven one nine forward slash twenty three
00:37:47 and paragraph 112 starts with these words it is an open question whether a borrow wide tmo is the best model of managing social housing and whether this structure made it too difficult for us as a landlord
00:37:59 difficult for us as a landlord to effectively monitor the excise of all its functions now did you have and it may well be this is obvious the answer flowing from earlier answers did you have and hold those concerns
00:38:11 did you have and hold those concerns about the size of the tmo before the 14th of june 2017 yes did you express those concerns to anyone at our bkc
00:38:22 anyone at our bkc i spoke to laura johnson about should we bring the capital program back in house because of the increasing work we were doing around regeneration but that was not because i perceived there was a specific risk
00:38:35 there was a specific risk i just didn't think the model was particularly good and as the council was going to be made investing major money on its estates i just wondered if the capital program would be best with
00:38:46 would be best with us can you remember now when that conversation with laura johnson took place
00:38:57 i'd be guessing don't guess if you can't remember no can you remember the gist of her response
00:39:05 um that there wasn't an appetite to bring it back in-house at the moment was that due to the administrative inconvenience cost did she specify the particular reasons why there was an absence of appetite
00:39:16 absence of appetite i think people wanted the tmo to succeed
00:39:21 were your concerns shared with anyone else within your department in particular celia chaliscan
00:39:30 yes we talked about it and was there a consensus view about the the benefits of bringing back the capital project team i don't think we talked about it in great detail to be honest with you
00:39:43 great detail to be honest with you so is it fair to say there wasn't a groundswell of concern no now could i move away and deal with a separate topic and that's really mark anderson's workload
00:39:54 workload and if i could go to rbk trouble zero four five six four two and it's an email exchange between you and sealer channel scan on the 17th of july 2012
00:40:08 and if i could ask us to go to page seven in this chain
00:40:14 you'll see that it was initiated by a letter
00:40:17 letter from the grenfell tower leaseholders association written to mr paul duncan of the tmo and it concerned the appointment of studio e now do you recall this email yes
00:40:31 now do you recall this email yes and we can see that the letter complained about a number of matters about lack of communication from the tmo in relation to the appointment of studio e
00:40:41 e mark anderson responded to the email on the 17th of july 2012 at 10 12 and that can be found at the bottom of page
00:40:50 of page five
00:40:54 and we see that there
00:40:58 and jane trethewey who reported to you is copied in now if we can go up to the bottom of page two of this chain now
00:41:11 we see that jane trethewey emailed
00:41:16 you and celia chaliscan expressing dissatisfaction with the lines of communication with the grenfell residents
00:41:24 residents she concluded over the page at page three
00:41:28 three and in the final paragraph of this email with these words all of this rather add to the impression adds the impression of mark being overloaded and perhaps promising things
00:41:39 overloaded and perhaps promising things that the tmo are not currently structured to deliver my first question is this did you think at the time that mark anderson was overloaded with work um i didn't specifically have that as a
00:41:51 um i didn't specifically have that as a concern
00:41:53 concern did you have it as a general concern no i didn't deal with mark anderson a lot jane dealt with him more did you have many conversations about
00:42:05 did you have many conversations about this issue with jane there was frustration on behalf of jane in relation to comms and not responding to leaseholders she was concerned about the impact on
00:42:17 she was concerned about the impact on the relationship with the leaseholders and with communications more general with residents at that point in time mark anderson also wasn't responsive to jaina myself
00:42:29 jaina myself dealing with her concerns about uh communications with residents in particular leaseholders did those concerns persist throughout mark anderson's time at the tmo
00:42:42 i think jane did push for some improvement during that time we met with yvonne burch and i can't remember who else from
00:42:53 burch and i can't remember who else from the tmmo but we looked at setting out a protocol for communications on major works so that was one of the way that we managed that situation and was that protocol enacted yes
00:43:07 and was that protocol enacted yes in relation to mr anderson's lack of responsiveness to you did you press him on the the need for responsiveness and did he mend his ways thereafter
00:43:18 thereafter jane very much pressed him in relation to her work areas as i said i didn't have that much to do with him
00:43:27 with him it appeared to us that his preference was to liaise with laura johnson primarily
00:43:31 primarily and not ourselves
00:43:35 we did make some inroads there was some improved communications with leaseholders they particularly wanted to know if they would be recharged for improvement works and we did get
00:43:46 for improvement works and we did get clarity on that matter but jane very much had to push for that was there a consensus to the best of your knowledge at rbkc that the tmo was not structured to deliver projects such as grenfell
00:43:59 deliver projects such as grenfell i think at the time that i became involved with the tmo the capital programme had transferred over a number of years before
00:44:07 before when i first got involved with them there were a number of interim heads of assets so there wasn't any permanency and mark anderson was an interim as well
00:44:18 and mark anderson was an interim as well so i felt there was a lack of structure robert black certainly recognized that when he came in and and laura certainly worked more closely with the tmo and that's when they started to
00:44:29 and that's when they started to restructure and went out for peter madison's post then i saw a clear improvement in the structure of the of that part of the organization and did that improvement
00:44:40 that improvement continue throughout until the time of the fire
00:44:44 the fire i think sometimes the there was issues with the
00:44:47 with the one of the posts that used to report to peter madison um it was kind of a strategic manager post we did recruit a couple of times to that post and we had difficulty keeping people in post on
00:45:00 had difficulty keeping people in post on a permanent basis can remember why sorry can you remember why you had those difficulties i think i think possibly people thought that the tmo would be doing wide scale regeneration
00:45:11 doing wide scale regeneration and that wasn't the case now can we go back to this email chain and go back to page two and celia
00:45:22 emails so there we go yes celia emails you at 1 10 pm that's in the middle of the just below halfway point of that page and says this i think we need to be having a word with the von and sasha so
00:45:33 having a word with the von and sasha so that'd be sa von burch and sasha evans presumably on this there needs to be the joint working between the teams how should we handle shall i draw something to them both were the teams
00:45:44 something to them both were the teams working effectively before this issue was raised do you think um this exposed the issue did you want to see more joint working or did you think there was a need for more joint working between the tmo and
00:45:56 more joint working between the tmo and the rbkc teams i think as they started to undertake major projects such as grenfell or some of the smaller development projects such as hidden homes we needed to work more closely with them as the
00:46:08 to work more closely with them as the landlord can we now go to the top of page two of this page and it's your response at 118 and you say i've been thinking do you
00:46:20 and you say i've been thinking do you think the mma covers us covers us enough for these types of projects and then if we go to the first page of this chain you email again at 140
00:46:35 and you say this in the second paragraph let's still look at the mma and set up the meeting with avon to take forward the resident engagement issues in general
00:46:43 general as we're intending to we'll chat tomorrow and celia responds almost immediately at 141 immediately above that
00:46:50 that okay the mma just wasn't designed for this sort of thing when we start looking at the new arrangements then we'll need to do quite a bit of work about getting the agreement right did you agree with that opinion yes
00:47:04 is there any other reasons that you can give to the panel above those you've already given us to why you held that view
00:47:10 view it might not have been the mma in retrospect it might have been the schedules which set out the operational procedures so we didn't have one around the resident engagement
00:47:21 resident engagement side in terms of comms on major works and also we didn't have once we delegated
00:47:28 delegated all the capital programme management to the tmo
00:47:32 the tmo we didn't have a specific reporting mechanism
00:47:36 mechanism in the schedules so i think it was a mixture of the schedules needed to be updated as well as looking at the mma itself and those are the principal deficiencies that you considered at the time
00:47:48 that you considered at the time at the time yes i also i think her deficiency that was that we didn't update it after um 2005 legislation on fire safety
00:48:01 after um 2005 legislation on fire safety now if we can go to the very top of this page it's an email from you sent at 142. you say that's what i've been thinking you'd have a much more specific contract
00:48:12 you'd have a much more specific contract after the epg matter we need to be careful does epg refer to elm park gardens yes and very briefly can you give the panel the gist
00:48:23 briefly can you give the panel the gist of the matter and the concerns that motivated that email there were major works carried out over a number of years the works were quite protracted legislation changed during the time of
00:48:35 legislation changed during the time of the works
00:48:36 the works and as the works were done we uncovered more issues with the building that led to us having concerns about the recharges to leaseholders and we had
00:48:48 the recharges to leaseholders and we had to sign off right off about 1.2 million pounds now still we're still on the 17th of july 2012
00:48:56 july 2012 but i'd like you to look at a separate document and it's another email to jane trithue
00:49:00 trithue and it can be found at rbk trouble zero four five six four three and then forward slash one
00:49:15 and we see the email at uh
00:49:18 at the top there and you say i've spoken to
00:49:23 to see the third paragraph i've spoken to celia and we do not think the mma covers this type of project sufficiently given the ongoing concern should we start to threat them as we would an external contract in relation to any
00:49:35 external contract in relation to any major cattle program where we are providing the funding perhaps this will give us more checks and balances given the pending writing off of 1.9 million pounds of leaseholder payments in relation to epg
00:49:46 in relation to epg we in the tmo cannot allow for anything like this to go wrong again in the future epg will be fresh in our counselors minds for a long long time a helpful context for our discussions with the tmo on how things can be
00:49:58 with the tmo on how things can be improved
00:50:00 improved now when you talked about treating the tmo as an external contractor what additional checks and balances did you have in mind beyond those you identified in the answer earlier again
00:50:11 answer earlier again for formal reporting into the council on major projects
00:50:17 can you help us know as to how and perhaps why rbkc was treating the tmo differently to an external contractor because we never commissioned those types of works from them before
00:50:29 types of works from them before and the capital programme team went over it
00:50:32 it had been part of the council at that point in time we should have reviewed the mma and looked at what the schedule said and can you help the panel did you put
00:50:43 and can you help the panel did you put in place any additional checks and balances to address the deficiencies you'd identified well here it was concern around communication with leaseholders and that had been an issue with elm park gardens so we put it
00:50:54 gardens so we put it put in place the resident engagement protocol
00:50:58 protocol the resident engagement continued to be delegated to the tmo but we monitored that and we've kept aware of that
00:51:06 that in terms of the major works we developed a protocol which focused on exception reporting on major works and we also set up monthly asset management meetings with the tmo
00:51:18 management meetings with the tmo so we worked much more closely with them on the capital programme and highlight reports
00:51:23 reports for all the major projects thank you how did you monitor uh performance of the protocol in relation to resident engagement we do it through the asset management asset management meetings there was a
00:51:34 asset management meetings there was a communications part and the highlight report
00:51:36 report but also we were in close conversation with the tmo all of the time so we we knew about how they were communicating with the
00:51:48 residents now is it right that the revised mma which came into force in 2015 made no changes uh to the oversight of
00:51:59 made no changes uh to the oversight of major projects beyond those you've identified yes can you help us why given the background of concerns you'd had going back to 2011 or thereabouts
00:52:10 had going back to 2011 or thereabouts i thought the two protocols um set things out clearly they weren't huge documents they needed to be simple the highlight reports seem to be working
00:52:23 we could put more in there i would acknowledge that and what what would that more be can you help the panel um possibly i mean i mean there was
00:52:34 um possibly i mean i mean there was quite a lengthy schedule in there around delegating major works to them and procurement but it would have been good to have a technical review of the document
00:52:44 document can i now turn to perhaps the next topic which is linked and that's monitoring the tmo performance and the first aspect of this is the annual performance reports an agreement
00:52:56 annual performance reports an agreement and if i could ask us to go to paragraph 88 of your first witness statement which is rbk trouble zero double three seven one
00:53:04 seven one nine forward slash seven
00:53:16 and you say in paragraph 38 this turning to the ways we sought to implement the mma
00:53:21 mma the key document was an annual performance agreement which we drew up every year with the tmo first of all what was your role in drafting the mid-year and annual performance review um celia charles scan drafted that
00:53:34 um celia charles scan drafted that document i would reveal it
00:53:40 to what extent how deep was your review before the drafts were put before the housing and property scrutiny committee i see several drafts
00:53:51 what steps did you take to ensure that the information provided by the tmo to you was accurate a lot of the information was known to me already through my working arrangements
00:54:02 already through my working arrangements with them
00:54:02 with them we were in contact with them on a regular basis we had regular meetings with them
00:54:09 with them i would review it and if there was something that wasn't familiar to me then i would ask about it but we did meet with them an awful lot on a lot of subject matters
00:54:20 to what extent was rbkc's health and safety advisor involved in the setting and monitoring of kpis
00:54:27 of kpis which involved health and safety the high level kpi we had for health and safety was the gas tests that would wouldn't have been to start with health and safety
00:54:38 to start with health and safety that would have sat with contract management in the property side of the business
00:54:42 business any other kpis
00:54:46 were dealt with internally by the tmo did the health rbkc's health and safety advisor ever suggest that fire safety generally
00:54:55 generally or any element of fire safety management should be the subject of a kpi no did you ever suggest that fire safety generally or any element of fire safety
00:55:07 management should be the subject of a kpi
00:55:09 kpi no can you explain why fire safety was never the subject of a kpi i think it wasn't just fire safety i think there were a number of compliance indicators which
00:55:20 indicators which should have been subject to a kpi a lot of the kpis we reported that through the performance agreement were quite high level we would review them on an annual basis with the performance manager and the tmo
00:55:32 with the performance manager and the tmo we would look at what house mark the benchmarking club was putting forward at that time the industry wasn't collecting compliance kpis widely so we would compare what we were
00:55:43 so we would compare what we were collecting you said fire safety ought to have been the subject of a kpi are there any other matters relevant to health and safety which now you think ought to have been
00:55:55 which now you think ought to have been subject to a kpi before the fire asbestos management legionella
00:56:04 was there any discussion as to whether specific elements such as closing down significant actions arising out of fire risk assessments ought to be the subject of a kpi no there wasn't but
00:56:16 the subject of a kpi no there wasn't but that should be another kpi going forward were you aware of the long-running concerns regarding the closing out of significant actions arising out of fras no i wasn't
00:56:31 can you help us what process was followed in broad terms by which a kpi was identified and then set well initially you would have kpis
00:56:42 set well initially you would have kpis set by central government you had best value kpis several years ago
00:56:49 ago you would then have corporate kpis which would have host oversight so we would liaise between the corporate center and the tmo and agree those kpis after the cameron
00:57:01 and agree those kpis after the cameron government came in a lot of that was rolled back in terms of performance management so it slimmed down substantially going forward we would look at benchmarking and we would liaise with the performance
00:57:13 and we would liaise with the performance manager who's very knowledgeable in the area
00:57:15 area what evidence would rbkc use to decide whether a kpi had been met and if so to what extent we received a dashboard targets were set
00:57:27 we received a dashboard targets were set and the achievement achievements were set out
00:57:31 set out on that dashboard the direction of travel was set out there would be commentary if there were key issues our meetings with the tml we would review the documentation
00:57:43 review the documentation in the past there had been audits of kpis that was another requirement that stopped when there was a change in government
00:57:54 government who actually decided whether a kpi had been met or not the tmo used their reporting systems so ultimately we relied on their information in the past
00:58:06 relied on their information in the past we did do the data audits where we could have tested that data more so rbkc's
00:58:11 rbkc's health and safety advisor wouldn't be involved at all in the process of determining whether a kpi had been met or not
00:58:17 or not he would have liaised directly with janice and the main one we were collecting was on gas safety and i was also copied into emails from robert black to laura johnson where he was commenting on the
00:58:28 where he was commenting on the achievement under that kpi what was the extent of your involvement if any in the process which considered the evidence regarding compliance um there was just that one gas one
00:58:41 um there was just that one gas one and again that would be reviewed under the dashboard arrangement would it be fair to say that laura johnson was ultimately responsible for approving the annual review yes now can we turn to
00:58:55 yes now can we turn to one of the annual performance reviews and it's for the year 2013-14 and that can be found at rbk treble zero three two four double six
00:59:11 and if we could go to at the bottom of page three
00:59:16 and we see laura johnson's name in the center at the bottom of that um would it be celia chaliskan who would have drafted the report though yes and if we could go to page 15.
00:59:32 yes and if we could go to page 15. and section 3.9 and the bottom right hand box and it states at the end of the second line the program of cunil sort of communal
00:59:45 the program of cunil sort of communal area fire risk assessment fras and their reviews continue further significant progress has been made to address the recommendations made by the fras now can you help here
00:59:57 made by the fras now can you help here what was meant by significant progress there would be a range of different actions that came out of the fras some of them would be quite straightforward like remo removal of rubbish
01:00:08 of rubbish others may be more in-depth such as if any of the ventilation system needed works or anything like that that is um that is a tmo report back
01:00:24 now the phrase further significant progress there may be read as implying that there had been a pre-existing problem regarding recommendations made by these fras would that be a fair reading of that
01:00:35 would that be a fair reading of that last sentence at the bottom of page 15. my understanding is that around 2009 2010 there'd been concerns raised raised around the fra
01:00:46 around the fra process and then um the tmo were asked to commission an event an independent advisor a fire risk assessor and my team were involved in the procurement of that
01:00:57 involved in the procurement of that person
01:00:58 person so all the fire risk assessments were redone and we agreed a priority with the lfb in reality the fire risk assessments are
01:01:08 are an ongoing document as soon as you've finished reviewing them you need to start to review them again because things change on the ground so i'm assuming there that that's what that relates to
01:01:19 that relates to even though it's 2013 14 and the problems have been identified some two or three years before then yes but also
01:01:28 also you know if it was a brand new program of what fire risk assessments it would take a substantial amount of time to do all of those fire risk assessments and would that be a reason why you weren't unduly concerned at this stage
01:01:41 weren't unduly concerned at this stage that there were clearly continuing issues regarding fras that's my understanding yes
01:01:50 what information was available to rbkc to enable it to make the statement that significant progress had been made
01:02:00 the health and safety report was annual to the corporate health and safety committee ceo may have reviewed that
01:02:09 and again the information would have come from the tmo would it yes
01:02:16 can you help us with the detail of rbkc's oversight of the progress with fra recommendations was it something for example that was a regular and consistent topic of
01:02:28 regular and consistent topic of consideration within the housing commissioning team no it wasn't that once we had established the recommissioning of those fras we felt that it was embedded in the
01:02:39 felt that it was embedded in the organization and that they were on top of things there
01:02:43 there um so we didn't it wasn't a concern at that time now and did it become a concern at any time before the fire
01:02:53 just put it even more starkly is your evidence that no time before the fire did celia channascan raise with you any concerns about progress in implementing fra actions
01:03:04 implementing fra actions no no could we now go to the 2014-15 annual review which can be found at rbk quadruple zero
01:03:15 which can be found at rbk quadruple zero six four nine forward slash thirteen
01:03:22 and we have paragraph three point seven one and that referred uh to the introduction of a health and safety plan in the opening sentence of the right hand column which had been introduced
01:03:35 column which had been introduced to quotes to facilitate monitoring of compliance with legislation and good practice
01:03:40 practice by the kctmo health and safety committee now does that mean that the health and safety plan provided the framework under which rbkc monitored the tmos health and safety committee or did it refer to the tmos
01:03:53 committee or did it refer to the tmos health and safety committee monitoring the tmos compliance with this health and safety obligations it's the tmo monitoring its own compliance did the tmo health and safety committee
01:04:04 did the tmo health and safety committee report to you their findings regarding compliance and best practice no there was one annual report to corporate health and safety now can we look at the third bullet
01:04:16 now can we look at the third bullet point in that right hand column
01:04:20 and it says in relation to the four areas relating to fire safety described as areas where progress had been noted now did you accept that statement
01:04:32 now did you accept that statement at face value and without challenge
01:04:36 could you ask me that again please yes of course
01:04:40 of course uh you look that see the third bullet point says the closest scrutiny of fire safety issues on the states yes did you accept that statement at face value and without challenge
01:04:52 face value and without challenge yes now
01:04:54 yes now can we now go to um the 2015-2016 tmo performance agreement and that can be found at rbk i'm just wondering mister kenya whether
01:05:06 i'm just wondering mister kenya whether we're reaching a convenient point i was going to push my luck for five more minutes sir but i don't want to be pushing my luck dangerously that's quite right but um you know whether we're going to a new
01:05:18 you know whether we're going to a new document we can topic or what we're going to new documents and we can uh break here be convenient places only i'm sure all right um mrs johnson we have a break during each session and i think this would be a
01:05:29 each session and i think this would be a good time to take it so we'll stop now um we'll resume at 25 to 4 please and i'm going to ask you as i've asked everybody else please don't talk about your evidence
01:05:40 your evidence or anything to do with it while you're out of the room okay all right thank you very much would you like to give the usher
01:05:58 all right 25 to 40.
01:22:27 would you ask ms johnson to come back in
01:22:36 please
01:22:50 all right mr johnson are you ready to carry on yes i am good thank you yes mr cleary thank you sir um miss johnson could we go to the 2015-16 tmo performance agreement which can be found at rbk quadruple zero
01:23:03 which can be found at rbk quadruple zero zero
01:23:03 zero five eight nine forward slash 29
01:23:12 and if that could be expanded if possible we have paragraph 3.6
01:23:18 and in the right hand column third bullet point it says the program
01:23:24 program of fire risk assessments and reviews to to continue and more work to ensure actions and recommendations from these are consistently completed in a timely manner would that text have been drafted by
01:23:35 been drafted by celia chaliscan in conjunction with um janice ray and did you read this report in draft i would have and with that third bullet point flagged
01:23:47 and with that third bullet point flagged to you
01:23:48 to you or did it flag to you at the time that there were issues regarding the timely completion of actions and recommendations arising out of fras i wasn't aware of that no so would you
01:23:59 i wasn't aware of that no so would you have
01:23:59 have read each page of it and the detail of the report would you have skim read the report no i would have read it in detail but that particular bullet point didn't strike you as important at the time i knew it was an ongoing program
01:24:13 were you provided with any information about what was being done about actions that were necessary to deal with
01:24:21 deal with works arising from fras i can't recall any information
01:24:28 i knew there was a fire risk assessment and during the works on grenfell tower i knew there was an ongoing programme
01:24:37 given that the purpose of a risk assessment is to identify eliminate or at least mitigate risk can you explain why at this particular point didn't strike you as important at
01:24:48 point didn't strike you as important at the time
01:24:49 the time because it was part of the ongoing programme of works which would be a rolling program
01:24:57 we should have given compliance more scrutiny than we did
01:25:06 and if you had scrutinized the subject matter of this third bullet point in more detail what action would you have taken or asked celia challascan to take
01:25:18 challascan to take to do a data audit
01:25:22 essentially to look at the log of outstanding repairs for example or to liaise with um richard buckley who's the corporate health and safety manager and get his view on things
01:25:33 manager and get his view on things i remember i did speak to him on a number of occasions around health and safety and fire safety i don't know he was um always happy with janice's work um i do recall speaking to him
01:25:45 recall speaking to him and you never had calls to discuss fras and actions arising with him no now can we turn to a separate but linked topic and that's scrutiny beyond kpis
01:25:54 kpis yes what was the extent to which the tma was obliged to provide information to our bkc
01:25:59 our bkc beyond the kpis there was the performance agreement which was qualitative information there would be financial performance information that would be provided by the tmo to the housing
01:26:11 provided by the tmo to the housing finance team there were the highlight reports from the asset management meeting i met with the tmo and corporate
01:26:22 meeting i met with the tmo and corporate property on a regular basis to review the commercial portfolio of hra properties and there were kpis there that were separate
01:26:31 separate um to being discussed through the performance agreement and now if we can look at this in slightly more detail if we can go to paragraphs 51 through to 53 of your first witness
01:26:42 through to 53 of your first witness statement which is a rbk treble zero double three seven one nine and page
01:26:50 and page uh sorry forward slash nine
01:26:55 now you say that the council will receive information i'm talking about information here and scheduled by monthly meetings called the housing revenue account meetings or hra meetings and you say the purpose was to manage
01:27:07 and you say the purpose was to manage and review performance now you say in these meetings you only scrutinize those high-level kpis which the council had agreed to collect as part of the annual performance agreement does that remain your
01:27:18 agreement does that remain your evidence yes um what i haven't put in that statement is that there was a standard agenda where there was a number of items that
01:27:29 where there was a number of items that we would cover such as complaints resident issues health and safety was on there so there was also
01:27:38 was also qualitative minutes taken of those meetings and the actions would be monitored
01:27:45 monitored now in the opening sentence of paragraph 53 which is over the page of page 10 you say that the hra meetings had as you've just said a standard agenda and that did include health and safety
01:27:56 and that did include health and safety now we know that there was no kpi set by rbkc in relation to health and safety
01:28:01 safety so why was it then a standing item on the agenda because we wanted to be made aware of any issues and in that regard can we take it that fra action points were not a significant
01:28:13 fra action points were not a significant feature
01:28:14 feature no was any element of fire safety a feature in those meetings to the best of your recollection i remember we got updates
01:28:23 updates following the dare and hazelwood fire there was updates through the hr hra meeting there
01:28:33 were you aware of the deficiency notice that was served and later the enforcement notice that was served in relation to a dare tower yes yes i was and those were would be reported in the performance agreement as
01:28:45 reported in the performance agreement as well
01:28:46 well did the fact and content of those notices prompt you to initiate any further inquiries or investigations to how effective how effectively the tmo is managing fire
01:28:57 effectively the tmo is managing fire safety
01:28:58 safety at least in relation to adair we met with them
01:29:02 with them following the adair fire and had a review and that was when the issue of the door closes came up i met with
01:29:10 with janice ray and other staff from the tmo i can't recall who and some of our own council staff to review our response in terms of the escalation process
01:29:21 escalation process and it was agreed that we would review our escalation from that i spoke to our emergency planning manager about what would happen in terms of
01:29:32 about what would happen in terms of decanting because whilst the tmo oversaw the response they were rbkc tenants so our residents and we initiated an
01:29:43 so our residents and we initiated an emergency
01:29:44 emergency emergency scenario exercise plan i wasn't involved in that but um i asked for it to be completed and that focused on one of our supported housing schemes
01:29:55 on one of our supported housing schemes that was managed by a third party contract and the tmo and that that operational exercise did take place they kept us updated in terms of the deficiency
01:30:06 deficiency notice i remember receiving regular updates
01:30:09 updates and i remember remember councillor fielding mellon also wanting regular updates which i helped with so i was constantly being updated by the tmo after that fire
01:30:20 updated by the tmo after that fire can you remember now what the particular issue was in relation to door closes at a dare
01:30:25 a dare they wanted us to install the door closes where they were missing and what was janice ray's report to you on that particular topic john israel i don't think did do a
01:30:36 john israel i don't think did do a report i believe that barbara matthews did a report and took it to the joint management meeting with ourselves and the tmo there was also another separate meeting where i recall we looked at the budget
01:30:47 where i recall we looked at the budget because we would have to increase the budget
01:30:50 budget so we met with laura barbara steve miller from finance and we agreed to increase the budget did you have any discussion with janice ray regarding the
01:31:02 discussion with janice ray regarding the topic of door closes no no it was all done through those formal meetings um you mentioned there a exercise in relation to supported housing
01:31:13 relation to supported housing um was there any discussion of personal emergency evacuation plans arising from that exercise that you can remember
01:31:21 remember i wasn't involved in the exercise i could make the assumption that there would be because burgess field was a supported housing scheme known as an extra care scheme so you would expect to have peeps in
01:31:33 so you would expect to have peeps in place for all the tenants there but you uh well i wasn't involved in that particular exercise i you know i would be very disappointed if they weren't there okay now could i now turn to a separate
01:31:45 okay now could i now turn to a separate uh
01:31:45 uh document tmo double zero eight four nine three four seven and it's the minutes of an hra meeting on the 29th of april 2013.
01:31:56 on the 29th of april 2013. excuse me now you did not attend but a number of representatives of our bkc did
01:32:03 bkc did and if we can go to page four and paragraph 9.1 in particular and you'll see there under h s health and safety nothing to report if the tmo
01:32:17 nothing to report if the tmo had nothing to report in relation to health and safety did rpkc have any arrangements for scrutinizing the accuracy of that report not sufficiently so now
01:32:32 you say not sufficient in what respects were the arrangements lacking i think jonas ray should have been invited to this meeting
01:32:45 would you have asked for example the the rbkc health and safety advisor to attend these meetings to press tmo on the accuracy and detail of the information they were giving to you
01:32:57 the information they were giving to you with einstein we should have had a specific meeting between the corporate safety manager and janus now if i could go back to your first statement in paragraph
01:33:08 statement in paragraph 64 and that can be found at rbk treble zero double three seven one nine forward slash twelve excuse me and it's the fourth line
01:33:20 excuse me and it's the fourth line which says the council did not have access to the keystone database and you go on in the next paragraph to say this and i quote i found this was a bit cumbersome at times because it meant that the council
01:33:31 times because it meant that the council was reliant on the tmo for information about its housing stock the information included data on the layout and characteristics of properties which was used to identify buildings in need of refurbishment or regeneration
01:33:42 need of refurbishment or regeneration and so on
01:33:43 and so on however at the same time it was a question of who had the technical expertise to interrogate or interpret that information those technical functions had been delegated to the tmos asset management team
01:33:53 team so they had the staff or at least access to specialists who could carry out those functions
01:33:59 functions why was rbkc unwilling or unable to arrange for you to have access to the keystone
01:34:03 keystone database we started they gave us demonstrations to the keystone database and we were the regeneration team were starting to talk to the tmo about
01:34:15 were starting to talk to the tmo about getting access so it wasn't ever off the table so as to speak
01:34:20 speak what was happening at that time was there were increasing requests coming from the regeneration team for stock condition data so it just seemed
01:34:30 seemed cumbersome that we had to go to the tmo for everything and it would have been preferable to access that ourselves but we would have needed someone with the skill set and a regeneration team
01:34:41 the skill set and a regeneration team and did the tmo ever refuse you access to that database no did it ever concern you that flows from the answer you you've just now given did it ever concern you that
01:34:53 now given did it ever concern you that rbkc
01:34:55 rbkc was reliant on the tmo for all this information yes and were those concerns that you voiced before the fire and if so when and to whom um there was there was
01:35:07 when and to whom um there was there was a general discussion um myself and laura met with peter madison and sir sasha jevons about access to information that the regeneration team were requesting we asked if there was a resource issue
01:35:19 we asked if there was a resource issue and we were told no again i think it was just cumbersome that we had to go to them for data on our own stock did you sense any resistance from sasha jevons or or peter madison
01:35:31 jevons or or peter madison to giving you access to keystone not at all
01:35:40 can you explain for the panel what the consequence was for you of complete reliance on the tmo for the information for the exercise of your scrutiny functions
01:35:52 well all the functionality for housing management was delegated to them they delivered the service so they reported on on the service and we had to have
01:36:05 and we had to have a level of trust with them with any contractor it's the same with any contract that you commission you have a specification for the service a contract in mma
01:36:16 a contract in mma performance management information we've got methods of self-assessment by provided
01:36:23 provided providers there has to be a certain amount of trust about what they're telling you i think some of the things that we used to do like the data audits would be good in retrospect i think we should have had someone with
01:36:34 i think we should have had someone with more technical experience in the team around specifically compliance and building management and i was going to say something else
01:36:51 there's another thing don't worry it may come back to you that's annoying
01:36:58 health and support the audit commission was disbanded by governments
01:37:04 in your view what gap did the audit commission leave in the arrangements for your monitoring of the tmo um they've done a they've done a review of them the tml i think about 2000 and
01:37:15 of them the tml i think about 2000 and i can't remember 2006. i think that's right
01:37:18 right yes and it was just helpful to have that kind of inspection regime i'd gone through an audit commission inspection and it was really robust and tough and you really had to demonstrate what
01:37:31 and you really had to demonstrate what you were delivering in terms of your service
01:37:33 service and i just think that was a very helpful concept and i think especially in an area like housing management where compliance is so important i think you know more regulation would
01:37:45 i think you know more regulation would help would the audit commission look at the
01:37:48 the effectiveness of resident engagement yes would it look at discharge of health and safety responsibilities and as part of that would have looked at discharge of fire
01:38:00 discharge of fire risk assessment and fire safety responsibilities
01:38:05 it would have yes
01:38:09 can you help me as to why rbkc didn't put in place arrangements which replicated the audit commission's functions i think at the time a lot of the performance management functions in local government
01:38:21 management functions in local government was scaled back
01:38:24 did you ever suggest replicating or reflecting the audit commission's arrangements as a mechanism for keeping check
01:38:32 check on the tmo when you were wholly reliant and taking on trust all the information from them
01:38:37 from them and discharging your scrutin scrutiny function no i didn't did anyone suggest that no now can we turn to the rbkc corporate
01:38:48 now can we turn to the rbkc corporate health and safety manager and committee and can we go to paragraph 43 in this statement
01:38:53 statement which is at page eight so just back four pages
01:38:58 pages and paragraph 43 says this and i quote the tmo also reported to the rbkc corporate health and safety manager with copies of health and safety committee minutes and an exact summary of their annual health and safety report
01:39:09 annual health and safety report for inclusion in his annual report committee the tmo health and safety manager also attended corporate health and safety meetings were you sent copies of the reports they would be on our website
01:39:21 would be on our website did you ever read them i recall reading them yes
01:39:24 them yes would you do that routinely um if i would
01:39:28 would if they were sent to me or i went onto the website and found them yes i would never not read anything that was sent me did the reports form part of the process of identifying kpis for the annual
01:39:40 of identifying kpis for the annual performance agreement purposes no can you explain why not was it just customer practice that they weren't it was custom and practice again we would look at what was being collected in the sector
01:39:53 collected in the sector we would look at what the priorities were for the tmo and for the council we'd look at where the where there was areas for improvement so it would be a range of activities
01:40:05 range of activities now we don't need to go to it unless you'd like to but janice ray and her first witness statement and it's at paragraph 183 said this the health and safety performance of the tmo was monitored primarily by
01:40:17 of the tmo was monitored primarily by the rbkc
01:40:18 the rbkc we welcome this scrutiny and we're always looking to improve health and safety
01:40:22 safety for the sake of the residents and staff was health and safety performance of the tmo primarily monitored by rbkc through this mechanism yes now janice ray says that paragraph 164
01:40:34 ray says that paragraph 164 of that first statement that monitoring was carried out by the rbkc corporate health and safety advisors is that right yes and that was gary mann until 2015
01:40:45 until 2015 and then his successor samaya yakub thereafter is that right what was the role of the housing department in monitoring health and safety
01:40:54 safety as it was applied in the tmos housing stock
01:40:58 stock um we
01:41:01 um we the annual review we would look at health and safety key issues that we were looking at we collected they collected for us the kpi
01:41:10 kpi on access to do gas checks
01:41:15 and health and safety was a regular meeting i also had you know i would also go to janice ray on a day-to-day basis if things came across my desk
01:41:26 across my desk i was also involved on the ground with residents when they raised concerns we had the good fairy plot concerns raised by
01:41:34 raised by residents at portobello at longlands road
01:41:37 road i was involved in discussions around access to princeton house which is one of our tower blocks on the silchester estate
01:41:45 estate so i would get involved operationally if residents came with particular concerns now in your view was there a potential gap between the scrutiny exercise by your department on the one side
01:41:56 on the one side and the joint corporate health and safety committee on the other yes how was the how's the risk of a gap or information falling between the two entities how is that mitigated or eliminated
01:42:09 i don't think it was mitigated i also think that environmental health became a vibe or a service
01:42:18 service um and i think that reduced that that made that
01:42:21 made that more of a possibility can you recall any specific health and safety fire safety issues that was missed because it fell between the housing department
01:42:32 the housing department and the the joint corporate health and safety committee not that i can recall can we now turn to the asset management protocol and if we can go to paragraph 86 in your
01:42:43 and if we can go to paragraph 86 in your first statement which is at page 17
01:42:51 and you say this and i quote as the tmo began to work more actively on hidden homes and the nature of its capital spending was changing i still felt we needed more oversight of the project once the build was underway on site
01:43:01 on site as opposed to when it was at the capital planning stages as described above i tasked celia to look at the mma about reporting to the council on capital works
01:43:09 works there wasn't any particular process prescribed by the mma so he began to develop a protocol to use instead
01:43:16 instead first of all what led you to develop the protocol
01:43:19 protocol because we looked at the mma and there was nothing in there about reporting to the council on key capital projects and was that a result of the email correspondence you'd had with jane
01:43:30 had with jane jane trethewey in july 2012 it was one of the
01:43:33 of the results yes now could we look at rbk trouble zero four five six double seven
01:43:44 four five six double seven and a particular page three of that email chain now the email chain if we just go up to
01:43:55 now the email chain if we just go up to page two
01:43:58 it starts with an email date of the third of september 2012 from mark anderson to keith mott and it copied in laura johnson and others jane trethewey if we go further
01:44:09 others jane trethewey if we go further up
01:44:10 up then responds to you and laura johnson on the 4th of september let's just up this page
01:44:15 this page aj lj expressing her dissatisfaction with mr anderson's response and the email says this regarding the below i just don't think this is a good enough answer to the
01:44:27 this is a good enough answer to the leaseholders queries essentially as they made clear in their emails and most recently on the 5th of august
01:44:31 august we request you to be more direct to our question so to say yes it will be an improvement so therefore there will be no recharges to the leaseholders i feel as though these repeated rebuffs
01:44:42 i feel as though these repeated rebuffs to them and a claim not to understand what it is they are asking for risk damaging the relationship between the tmo and leaseholders and make the delivery of this project more difficult efforts to get the tmo to
01:44:53 more difficult efforts to get the tmo to consider a more open approach fell on deaf ears i understand the tmo has been seeking a final position before clarifying to leaseholders there is no reason to avoid clarifying the process and likely timetable and
01:45:04 the process and likely timetable and writing to them as i am not receiving updates on grenfell directly i'm now unsure how or whether to take this matter further would welcome any views and if we go on to page one of
01:45:15 views and if we go on to page one of this chain
01:45:18 um on the fourth of september as well you
01:45:22 you respond and again i'll read it out i think we need to develop a formal protocol with the tmo on how they manage any development regeneration major cattle projects this would include a
01:45:33 cattle projects this would include a specific section in managing communication celia has suggested that the work done on car parks could form a useful basis for developing the communication element once we have this and we will prioritize this then we should develop formal
01:45:45 this then we should develop formal reporting arrangements with highlight reports that link to the hra meetings regen board as appropriate i suggest we also include terms of reference which set up the councils and the tmo's respective roles and responsibilities
01:45:56 responsibilities we can then also link any performance measures into the cathode business plan and overall tmo performance plan whilst this may not resolve all ongoing issues it will provide us with a formal framework for overseeing
01:46:07 with a formal framework for overseeing these more complex areas of work that cannot be effectively picked up under the current mma any framework once developed can be a variation to the mma now presumably this is part of the
01:46:19 mma now presumably this is part of the the measures you were describing earlier to the panel yes
01:46:30 now can we now look at a separate document
01:46:34 document which is rbk treble zero four six zero eight
01:46:38 eight three and it's another email chain
01:46:46 and at the bottom of the page which sets out an email from celia chad scan to you and roger keane on the 30th of july 2014 sent at 1003. um i should have asked you this earlier you referred to a second
01:46:58 this earlier you referred to a second officer working with celia was that roger keane yes it was now as we've just just discussed
01:47:05 discussed we know that you suggested a protocol in september 2012 yes why had it taken until july 2014 for a draft protocol to be produced can you help us
01:47:18 i think that would be about the time i believed that the monitoring came over to my team we had drafted a protocol and we had
01:47:29 we had drafted a protocol and we had distributed it i know that there was some backwards there was some chewing and throwing with the tmo
01:47:36 the tmo on the document
01:47:41 now if we um you exhibit a copy of the final protocol to your witness statement and you say in your first witness statement and for reference it's paragraph 87 that this was minuted at an asset
01:47:53 that this was minuted at an asset management meeting and circulated but you weren't too sure whether it had been formally adopted is that a fair summary of your of your view yes but it would be something that i would go to if i had
01:48:04 something that i would go to if i had concerns raised with me now can we look at rbk
01:48:09 at rbk quadruple zero two three six eight forward slash fourteen
01:48:23 and there we go schedule 9 asset management principles and processes for asset management projects and hidden homes that's one of the embedded documents in the mma
01:48:34 embedded documents in the mma did you know that the process had been incorporated within the 2015 version of the mma
01:48:41 i cannot recall there was a list there was a long list of um changes we made to the mma in 2015. certainly i would have asked celia to
01:48:52 certainly i would have asked celia to incorporate it in there now um can we go to the protocol itself which can be found at rbk trouble zero five zero four zero nine
01:49:04 and page two
01:49:07 and you see the section two site identification where it says just above the header for section 3
01:49:14 section 3 the council will assign a lead officer from the housing department and they will be invited to join the scheme project group will act as the main interface between the tmo and the council on the project was roger keane appointed as that
01:49:26 was roger keane appointed as that officer
01:49:27 officer yes in relation to grenfell i asked him to attend the project meetings and if we turn over the page in this document to page three
01:49:39 now you see roughly halfway down the page the heading project monitoring and the third bullet point it says that the protocol required provision of regular highlight reports
01:49:53 provision of regular highlight reports risk register and providing information on project as requested yes the penultimate bullet point on that page also provides for specific
01:50:04 page also provides for specific exception reports will be required where there are significant changes i.e changes to the specification budgets delays or new risks arise can you remember was that ever done
01:50:15 can you remember was that ever done if that's the hidden homes one yes it was is it is it possible to look at the document
01:50:21 document i don't think it is via this link at one point we had separate reporting for hidden homes and then we combined that with the asset management meetings and reported there
01:50:34 management meetings and reported there we also had an excel i think it was an excel spreadsheet it might have been word i'm not sure but we had a highlight report that we were using for grenfell that was quite detailed
01:50:46 grenfell that was quite detailed and picked up on areas of risk communication budget stages health health and safety things like that so i think initially there was a separate hidden homes document
01:50:58 separate hidden homes document and then we developed the highlight report
01:51:01 report and and that was developed and what is your evidence that there were bespoke versions for the grenfell project yes now if we can go back to your first statement of paragraph 86 and that's our
01:51:13 statement of paragraph 86 and that's our rbk
01:51:15 treble03719 forward slash 17. and in particular paragraph 86 and you refer there to these reporting
01:51:26 and you refer there to these reporting requirements we've just considered you refer to them collectively as risk and exception reporting now did that risk and exception reporting
01:51:34 reporting rely on the tmo itself identifying any matters which were unusual or problematic yes as the technical experience would sit with them we might pick up any on
01:51:47 sit with them we might pick up any on any communications issues residents would often email laura we'd also pick up on the comm side of things as well but in terms of the technical information
01:51:58 the technical information we would rely on the tmo to complete that and send it to us and so did that risk an exception reporting rely on the tmo to then choose to report those matters to our bkc
01:52:09 to our bkc yes now if we can stay in your first witness statement but go forward to paragraph
01:52:15 paragraph 91
01:52:21 you say there and i quote in developing the protocol i didn't want to burden the tmo with multiple reporting obligations and it was also required to report to its own board and other internal structures to avoid this we initially suggested
01:52:33 to avoid this we initially suggested they could pass on their own internal reports to ask but this never really happened consistently or systematically who suggested that the tmo could pass on their own internal reports
01:52:44 their own internal reports i did and when oh it was when we first started to talk about the protocol because if they were reporting into their exec team or their board and the report covered the key areas
01:52:57 and the report covered the key areas that we wanted to know about they could be copied to us um in the end that never happened and we developed a separate template which they completed
01:53:06 completed so you first raised the prospect of a protocol in september 2012 so it would have been last quarter of 2012 that this was discussed i believe so yes and what was the tmo's response to
01:53:17 was the tmo's response to this suggestion um there was an exchange of the
01:53:21 of the protocol between celia and i think david burns was there at the time he raised concerns around the reporting to be too onerous
01:53:32 at the end of the day david burns left and the tmo completed those highlight reports for us as requested and they were discussed at the monthly asset management meetings the consistent and systematic provision
01:53:45 the consistent and systematic provision of those internal reports it would have given rbkc greater access to a greater range of information wouldn't it potentially when reports were not provided
01:53:56 when reports were not provided consistently or systematically did celia challenge it um
01:54:04 yes she would she would or she did she did and did you challenge it yes and with whom did you challenge it um it was specifically it was around the asset
01:54:15 was specifically it was around the asset management information where there'd been specific requests for information from the assets team and that's when laura and myself met with peter madison and saturday germans and what was the madison jevon's
01:54:28 and what was the madison jevon's position in response to the challenge again they were recruiting there'd been a vacancy
01:54:33 a vacancy um i think another member of staff was going into the role alex bosman and they had enough resources again i think it was this going to the tmo for all the information
01:54:44 going to the tmo for all the information just complicated things and ultimately did you just drop the proposal the proposal for or the request for the for the provision of this information well we we used the highlight report which i was happy with
01:54:57 highlight report which i was happy with can i now turn on to the monitoring of the grenfell project itself and staying in your first statement could we go to paragraph 132 which is at page 26
01:55:10 and in broad terms you described there that it became clear that grenfell had to be treated as an asset management project rather than a regeneration project
01:55:18 project and responsibility for the project eventually moved to your team and who made the decision that responsibility for the project should be transferred to housing commissioning i believe it was laura johnson
01:55:29 was laura johnson you remember why that decision was made because the regeneration team were focusing on wider scale refurbishments of estates and building new housing
01:55:40 and building new housing this was seen as a major capital project it was replacing windows communal heating systems that type of thing so the regeneration team were going to focus more on the silchester estate
01:55:52 focus more on the silchester estate barbie and trevorton there was small blocks program there's an older persons program
01:55:57 program and as i was monitoring asset management i would monitor the capital capital programme and i would work with steve miller on the hra business plan working with the tmo and what the funding priorities were
01:56:09 funding priorities were so i think that was probably the rationale behind that decision do you know why responsibility for monitoring wasn't decided before such a major program was started
01:56:20 started i think it just kind of evolved sir jane trophy had been involved in those initial discussions james refueled had been involved in considering what to do with the receipts
01:56:32 considering what to do with the receipts from um park gardens so jane in a regeneration role took on the initial responsibility for the grenfell tower and then kitty mortimer who was a regen
01:56:43 and then kitty mortimer who was a regen officer
01:56:43 officer took on the day-to-day development i think it was just a changing focus for the team
01:56:49 the team could we stay in your first statement but turn over the page and look at paragraph 134 where you say although there were several capital projects ongoing in the borough and there had been other capital projects with the tmo in the past
01:57:01 projects with the tmo in the past grenfell tower was the council and the tmo's first major capital spending project
01:57:05 project really it was the biggest project carried out on the council's housing stock in many years would you agree that the combination of the size of the project and the tmo's lack of experience called for particular and close scrutiny
01:57:18 called for particular and close scrutiny of the project by rbkc yes what were your priorities and the priorities of your department in exercising oversight over the project um roger worked very much on an
01:57:30 um roger worked very much on an operational level he attended the project meetings as i've said in my statement i wanted him to be my eyes and hears he also liaised with laura johnson who is the sro for calc
01:57:43 is the sro for calc so he looked at the interface between the two sites on that the asset management meetings were the main forum whereby we scrutinized through the highlight reports we didn't
01:57:54 through the highlight reports we didn't do things such as site visits it was mainly through the higher highlight reports and was your concern primarily
01:58:00 primarily budget rather than anything else
01:58:05 no what were the principal concerns then delivery within time scales um there was a lot of feedback from residents in terms of communications
01:58:16 residents in terms of communications we wanted to improve the building for the residents would you agree that delivery within time scale is the flip side of the delivery within budget coin yes now in his witness statement of the
01:58:29 yes now in his witness statement of the inquiry roger keane dealt with highlight reports and said this at paragraph 63 we don't need to go to it
01:58:35 to it but i'll read it out to you the dashboard reports provide project updates and were used for strategic purposes only although the tmo would sometimes include some more detailed technical information
01:58:46 some more detailed technical information we were only scrutinizing the implications for the council is it going to cause delays and is it going to impact the cost so bearing in mind what mr keane says there
01:58:56 there do you agree with him that the priorities for the council were delays and cost um that there were certainly two concerns but that was wasn't the only priority we
01:59:07 that was wasn't the only priority we wanted to
01:59:07 wanted to deliver an improved building for the residents
01:59:10 residents is it fair to say based on your answers thus far
01:59:15 thus far that the purpose of closely monitoring this project had nothing to do with health and safety concerns not at that point no
01:59:25 did you ever share the contents of the highlight reports with laura johnson um we may have discussed them at our one-to-one meetings um the minutes would have been available
01:59:37 um the minutes would have been available um i cannot specifically recall when i shared them with her are you sure that you did i cannot recall
01:59:46 recall now you described in your statement and again today mr keen has your eyes and ears on the project is it right that mr keane was the most junior member of your team yes did mr keane have any technical
01:59:58 yes did mr keane have any technical expertise or experience that particularly qualified him for the role in relation to grenfell no why did you choose him then because he would i didn't have anyone with technical experience
02:00:10 with technical experience and he was a reliable hard-working member of staff who'd formed good relationships with the tmo he worked closely with claire williams williams the project manager and worked
02:00:21 williams the project manager and worked on the interface with calc and he was the individual who wasn't replaced
02:00:29 did you try and identify someone who did have the technical expertise to fill his role in relation to grenfell after he left
02:00:37 left he left in 2016. the regeneration team was then expanding at that time
02:00:47 that's where the resources were going i now want to move on to a separate topic which is fire risk assessment and in particular the relationship with janice ray and staying in your first statement could we turn to paragraph 162
02:01:00 statement could we turn to paragraph 162 which is at page 33
02:01:06 and you say this and i quote when matters relating to fire safety did cross my desk the usual path was to contact or coordinate with janice ray health and safety manager at the tmo there was a lot of confidence within the council in janus she was very responsive
02:01:19 council in janus she was very responsive and you always got a thorough reply from her although i note that i had to rely upon the veracity of her responses i didn't have the expertise to contradict her did anyone in the housing department have the expertise or
02:01:30 department have the expertise or experience to question janice ray knowledgeably or where necessary to contradict her
02:01:37 no the health and safety function had gone to corporate and all of our technical teams had gone over to the tmo under the capital programme and are the
02:01:49 under the capital programme and are the reasons you set out in paragraph 162 the same reasons why rbkc had confidence in janus ray's abilities janice was an extremely responsive
02:02:01 janice was an extremely responsive officer whenever anything came across my path to do with fire safety and it didn't that often or any health and safety matter janice would always be very responsive and
02:02:12 would always be very responsive and very clear about the action that she was taking
02:02:16 did you ever mention to laura johnson the utility of having a health and safety specialist within your team to double check to verify
02:02:27 to double check to verify the robustness the reasonableness of the advice the response is given by janice ray
02:02:32 ray i focused more on my concerns around the capital programme i should have also included compliance in that
02:02:40 in that could i now turn to your second witness statement in paragraph 15 which is a rbk trouble zero five double four six four
02:02:53 paragraph 15 where you say within the annual reports there was a section on health and safety which summarized health and safety issues arising from that year and changes made by the tmo in respect of health and safety
02:03:03 safety is that right yes now if we can go to rbk
02:03:06 rbk quadruple zero two three nine five which hopefully is a draft version the tmo performance report for 2016-17
02:03:17 thank you and if we could go to page 15 and a particular paragraph 3.6 and if that could be expanded we see that the health and safety section of the report
02:03:28 the report now looking at the column on the left hand side of para 3.6 we can see janice's name written in red do you agree yes were the health and safety elements of
02:03:39 were the health and safety elements of the report drafted by jonas ray in conjunction with celia yes
02:03:46 are you able to give us an idea of the respective contributions of celia callisgun
02:03:52 callisgun and janice ray to the health and safety sections sealy will rely on journalists for the content entirely
02:03:58 entirely um celia may be involved through other areas as well such as the leaseholder fire doors um so she would get get involved in specific issues where we needed to work with the tmo she
02:04:11 where we needed to work with the tmo she would be aware of the issues relating to the fire at aaron hazelwood would it be fair to say that celia charles gan greatly relied upon janice ray then for these purposes for this information yes
02:04:25 for this information yes would you scrutinize the accuracy of the information set out in these reports yes always given that you lacked the expertise
02:04:35 expertise and background to question janice ray would you have involved the health and safety advisor rbkc to enable you to critique what had been said i didn't can
02:04:46 critique what had been said i didn't can you help us as to why not
02:04:49 i knew that janice was in close contact or work closely with that part of the sector
02:04:54 sector [Music]
02:04:56 [Music] certainly something that i could have done in hindsight did anyone in the housing department ever raise a doubt about the robustness or reasonableness of the advice the information given by janice
02:05:07 advice the information given by janice ray
02:05:08 ray no did laura johnson ever express any doubts in that regard no
02:05:17 is it right or fair to say that the tmo performance reports contain no independent or verified information about the tmo's health and safety and fire safety performance yes thank you
02:05:29 performance yes thank you now could we look at an example of the interaction between your team and janice ray and go to rbk trouble zero four six four six four which is an email
02:05:40 four six four six four which is an email chain between you celia challaskan and janice ray on the 26th of august 2016. the subject in the header is fire safety
02:05:50 safety and the chain begins with an email in the middle of page three
02:05:56 that email is from the greater london authority
02:06:01 authority regarding the shepherd's court fire which had happened i think on the 19th of august
02:06:05 of august of that year and the correspondent from the gla
02:06:09 the gla maya luna jorgensen asks in the final sentence could you let me know what rbkc's fire safety policy is for tower blocks how the council reviews this and when it
02:06:20 how the council reviews this and when it was last updated now this email is then sent to celia and then on to janice ray and january then drafts a response which if we go back to page one of this chain
02:06:33 we can see that the response uh starts at the bottom of page one and goes on to page two as well and then celia channel scan then says at the top of the first page
02:06:45 page there we go yes this is very detailed so please do send and then you are then copied into the email at the very top at 0 9 38.
02:06:57 now would you agree that the impression arising out of this brief email chain is that celia neither had the requisite knowledge or expertise to answer ms jorgensen's email
02:07:09 expertise to answer ms jorgensen's email yes or to question the substance or accuracy of ms ray's response yes
02:07:16 was that level of scrutiny typical of that applied by celia chaliskan two correspondence from janice ray we relied on janice as the as the expert in the field for that type of information yes
02:07:30 that type of information yes could we now go to rbk uh trouble zero four eight four double zero and this is an email chain between you
02:07:42 and this is an email chain between you celia janice ray and laura johnson starting on the 20th and ending on the 26th of april 2017 and if we go to page three we can see
02:07:54 and if we go to page three we can see there in the bottom part of the page celia
02:07:56 celia chalice can ask janice ray for a short report on the fire at trellic tower
02:08:05 following a request from councillor mack over janice ray sent this report to you on the 25th of april which we can see at the email at the bottom the first page of this chain
02:08:20 which you then forwarded to laura johnson which is slightly further up page one
02:08:26 page one with the words laura janice has completed this report for scrutiny i will format into our style and asha will circulate when she is back again is it right that you asked no questions of janice ray about the
02:08:37 questions of janice ray about the substance of this report um i would need to go to janus as the person who was operational on the ground for the information on the fire i had no reason to be concerned around
02:08:49 i had no reason to be concerned around her reports of the fire and so your department's role was limited to formatting and other such issues we would read it and ask any questions but i would rely on janice for the
02:09:01 but i would rely on janice for the subject matter expert information about what happened would you accept that this email chain does not indicate that either you or celia challaskan asked any questions
02:09:11 questions regarding the substance of the report given to you according to this email train yes there would have been other conversations though that were verbal you say it would have been were there
02:09:23 you say it would have been were there any conversations in which you questioned the accuracy of anything janice ray had said i didn't have any reason to question the inaccuracy of the tragic fire now um councillor rock fielding mellon
02:09:35 now um councillor rock fielding mellon refers in his first statement to the filter role that the housing department played
02:09:39 played and if we can go to his statement which is a rbk
02:09:42 is a rbk triple zero double three four zero three
02:09:50 page 18 and paragraph 68
02:09:58 and he essentially says here that the he understood the housing department to operate as quotes effectively an independent check on what the tmo said which monitored the performance of the tmo against the mma
02:10:10 tmo against the mma these reports and reassurances combine to provide us with the reasonable impression that fire safety measures within grenfell tower and more widely across the entire hra portfolio were being appropriately managed by the
02:10:21 were being appropriately managed by the tmo which had contracted with independent fire consultants which had regular meetings with the lfb would you agree with the accuracy of councillor fielding melon's
02:10:32 councillor fielding melon's characterization of the housing department as a filter yes we would be a conduit for information
02:10:41 would it be fair to say on the basis of the evidence you've given this afternoon that the level of scrutiny brought to bear by your department was at best limited in terms of technical aspects of the contract yes
02:10:53 technical aspects of the contract yes by that i mean compliance uh asset management
02:11:00 and particularly in relation to fras yes sir it is 25 past four yes um i'm about to turn to a new topic which i will not be able to complete in five minutes
02:11:11 complete in five minutes or four minutes now so it might be better to start it on monday morning monday morning yes i'm sure ms johnson would like to know how much longer you expect to require
02:11:22 how much longer you expect to require with her
02:11:23 with her miss johnson will certainly be free at monday lunchtime i hope in good time before then right well i expect you were warned that we might need to ask you to come back on monday were you
02:11:34 you to come back on monday were you yes yes well i'm glad it's not coming as a surprise well we're going to stop there for the afternoon um we shall not have to ask you to come back on monday to answer some more questions but as you've heard
02:11:45 you've heard it should only be for the morning so not too bad
02:11:49 too bad all right um so 10 o'clock on monday please
02:11:53 please and uh remember not to talk to anyone about your evidence or anything relating to it
02:11:58 to it over the weekend okay all right thank you very much we'd like to give the ocean
02:12:20 thank you mr ten o'clock on monday thanks sir good thank you
02:12:43 you