Councillor Blakeman's evidence on TMO board governance, fire safety concerns, and resident complaints process
00:00:33 good morning everyone welcome to today's hearing today we're going to continue hearing evidence from miss blakeman one of the councillors of rbkc
00:00:44 of the councillors of rbkc so would you ask ms blatant to come back in please
00:00:59 in please good morning mr good morning we're all ready to
00:01:02 ready to carry on ahead thank you good thank you very much yes mr millet good morning mr chairman good morning members of the panel and good morning miss blakeman thank you very much for coming back to us on thursday afternoon when we broke
00:01:14 us on thursday afternoon when we broke we were looking at the lfb's enforcement notices in respect of adair tower at the end of 2015 2015. can we move that topic on a little bit
00:01:26 can we move that topic on a little bit in time
00:01:27 in time not too far and go please to tm00886208 at page 75 what i'm showing you here
00:01:41 at page 75 what i'm showing you here is the minutes of the tmo board meeting on the 4th of january 2016 where robert black's report is discussed and if you look at the very foot of page
00:01:52 and if you look at the very foot of page 75
00:01:53 75 you can see paragraph 9.12 which says this the chief executive's report included an update on the adair tower fire the board noted that the company
00:02:04 noted that the company and rbkc were going to be served with enforcement notices by london fire brigade
00:02:09 brigade in respect of the ada tower and hazelwood tower the board would be kept updated
00:02:17 now all the board required upon being informed that an enforcement notice would be served was to be kept updated it appears from this is that right
00:02:27 right yes did nobody on the board ask why the deficiencies at air tower underlying the proposed enforcement notices
00:02:36 notices had not been addressed before the fire or at any rate before the start of 2016. um well basically i can't remember but i don't think that we had um known about the um previous
00:02:49 had um known about the um previous deficiency notices certainly i hadn't known so just to be clear those weren't brought to the attention of the board by the executive team or by mr black no right not to my recollection
00:03:02 no right not to my recollection having been informed of the uh
00:03:08 of the uh of the deficiencies rather than the deficiency notices but certainly the deficiencies uh making up the enforcement notices did nobody on the board ask why those had not been addressed as a
00:03:19 why those had not been addressed as a matter of urgency no like oh and i can't remember do you remember whether the fra system the system whereby the management of the tma would address fra actions identified in the
00:03:32 address fra actions identified in the fire risk assessors report within a fixed time frame which is what i mean by the fra system did nobody on the board ask uh why the fra system had let these deficiencies through the net i
00:03:45 these deficiencies through the net i have no idea right you don't remember that question ever arising yeah right was that but was the ball not supposed to hold management robustly to account things like those would go to the
00:03:56 things like those would go to the finance audit and risk committee but not the main board well we used to occasionally get their minutes just for information only for information yeah but they were very um very very um there's not much on those
00:04:09 very very um there's not much on those minutes i've had a look at them over the weekend
00:04:11 weekend right no well that gives rise to the question
00:04:15 question um why was the board not holding management through whichever committee it was robustly to account for um the inactivity or inaction in respect of fra actions that hadn't
00:04:29 in respect of fra actions that hadn't been completed which had which had given rise to the idea tower fire well i can't answer about fras because i didn't see them but i can answer because i also went over some of my emails in the past and i
00:04:41 over some of my emails in the past and i certainly raised issues like that in my emails to them yes to the account to the um tmo uh you as a counselor
00:04:52 uh you as a counselor but not you as a board member no right did nobody on the board suggest that the fact that the lfb was now threatening
00:05:03 fact that the lfb was now threatening to serve enforcement notices did nobody on the board suggest that that had indicated that there might be something wrong with the fra process um i think it's because of the
00:05:15 process um i think it's because of the fire
00:05:15 fire that we expected to have deficiency notices that that was the expectation i think of the board after the fire after the fight yes so it's not quite my question my question is did nobody on the board ask the
00:05:26 is did nobody on the board ask the question well why have we got an enforcement notice given that we've got a fire risk assessor who's just who's supposed to spot things in advance i can't remember you can't remember no
00:05:37 can we go to tm00853181
00:05:44 this is the minutes of a meeting of the tmo board
00:05:49 tmo board held on the 31st of march 2016 as you can see from the top of the screen and we can see that you were present if we look at the list of council nominated board members you
00:06:01 of council nominated board members you can see that you're in the list there and if we go to page two at the bottom of the page you can see that there's something called the presentation of the chief executive's report under section nine if you go to that
00:06:12 under section nine if you go to that and uh
00:06:15 it it says under 9 1 barbara matthews presented the chief executive's report to the board she drew the attention of the board to the progress update on the enforcement notices received in respect of adair and hazelwood
00:06:26 of adair and hazelwood towers following the fire at adair tower and then at 9 2 this jeff zitron questioned why enforcement notices had been issued given the fact that the
00:06:37 been issued given the fact that the company had commissioned and had valid fire risk assessments in place at the time of the fire incident sasha jevons explained that the fire risk assessment that had been even though there were no
00:06:48 that had been even though there were no issues reported by the consultant and the london fire brigade in their fire audit and before the fire incident the occurrence of the fire had created the opportunity to reassess the acceptable standards which then led
00:06:59 acceptable standards which then led to the issuance of the enforcement notices it was reiterated that the key areas of
00:07:04 areas of focus for the notices were the ventilation in the stairwells and self-closures on all flat entry doors simon bristenden commented on the qualification of the risk assessors being used by the company
00:07:16 risk assessors being used by the company and reiterated the need to use experienced consultants who could highlight any eventualities as well in their reviews of the properties and then it goes on the board agreed
00:07:28 and then it goes on the board agreed that the company needed to reconsider the frequency of the fire risk assessments being undertaken and the installation of door closers
00:07:35 closers barbara matthews confirmed that it was intended to install door closes by the deadline
00:07:40 deadline and negotiate an extension of the works required on the ventilation issues the board requested that a report on the conclusions of the review of the stock should be presented at a future meeting covering any decisions and
00:07:51 covering any decisions and recommendations in respect of the fire incident
00:07:54 incident now um it looks from the minutes that i've read to you there that the tmo board were told that the fire risk assessor had not identified any concerns before
00:08:07 had not identified any concerns before the fire at adair tower is that is that right
00:08:11 right to the best of your recollection to the best of my recollection of what's written here yes yes and and the nor had the lfb uh identified uh any such concerns
00:08:22 uh identified uh any such concerns even shortly before the fire on the reading of this minute
00:08:29 that's correct yeah from what it says here was that was that your understanding doing the best you can with your recollection at the time of this board meeting end of march 2016.
00:08:41 board meeting end of march 2016. well i've already said we weren't given the deficiency notices before the fire so
00:08:45 so we didn't know about that no would you have expected to have been told that in fact
00:08:51 fact before the adair tower fire the lfb had issued
00:08:55 issued a deficiency notice in respect to vader tower yes certainly yes did you find yourself persuaded by what sasha jevens had said about quotes reassessment of
00:09:06 said about quotes reassessment of acceptable standards giving rise to enforcement notices in the middle of that first paragraph on that page there
00:09:14 well we were we we had the expectation that the the people from the executive team knew what they were doing yes my point is a slightly a slightly
00:09:25 yes my point is a slightly a slightly more refined one it seems that sasha jevons says here that the
00:09:30 that the fire had created the opportunity to reassess the acceptable standards which then led to the issuance of the enforcement notices did you were you persuaded by what she said there
00:09:41 said there namely that the far had created this opportunity well presumably because presumably uh to contradict her would have been to call her a liar indeed and you don't go well
00:09:55 the question i have though is you don't go straight to you from reassessment of acceptable standards to enforcement let me put it a different way did when you realized that there was an
00:10:06 you realized that there was an enforcement notice did you not ask the question or did the ball not ask the question well what is it that's given rise to that surely it can't just be something wrong with the standards
00:10:18 something wrong with the standards i can't remember right did she leave you with the impression that somehow this was the lfb's fault and not the tmo's fault i can't remember or or perhaps that the
00:10:30 i can't remember or or perhaps that the lfb might have moved the goal posts without giving the tmo fair warning about what the accessible standards were that's possible yeah you said that's possible do you recall that no right um
00:10:43 i've shown you where mr bristenden is minuted as raising concerns about the qualification of risk assesses being used by the tmo and the need for experience consultants did you know who the fire risk assessor for grenfell
00:10:56 who the fire risk assessor for grenfell tower was at this time now the final agreement as as it appears from the last of the paragraphs i've read to you is that the board had asked for reconsideration of the frequency of fire risk
00:11:07 of the frequency of fire risk assessments if the fire risk assessor had not identified the issues leading to the enforcement notices in respect of our tower
00:11:15 our tower uh how did the board consider that more frequent fire risk assessments would remedy that sorry i can't answer that do you not i can't answer that well you see the board came to an
00:11:26 well you see the board came to an agreement that the company needed to reconsider the frequency of fire risk assessments why did why was frequency relevant given that the fire risk assessor had failed to spot deficiencies which would
00:11:38 to spot deficiencies which would which had led to an enforcement notice i can't recollect can we go to tm010045083 please
00:11:49 tm010045083 please at page 87 this is the same set of minutes but this is now the matters are rising and if you look at page 87 under paragraph 9.2
00:12:02 paragraph 9.2 uh which is number seven in the list there
00:12:05 there on the left hand column uh with the date 31st of
00:12:10 31st of march 2016 um you can see that it says adair tower report on the conclusions decisions
00:12:17 decisions and recommendations about lessons learned
00:12:20 learned from the fire incident and then by whom robert black
00:12:28 do you remember what happened as a result of that the normal practice on the board was to rush through the matters arising
00:12:42 right when you say rush through matters you just could you explain what would happen well very little would be mentioned about any of the matters arising
00:12:51 arising right do you remember specifically what the upshot of item seven there was no right um can we then move forward in the year 2016
00:13:02 the year 2016 to september and go please uh to tm010015198 this is the minute of the meeting of the 29th of september
00:13:13 29th of september 2016 where the report that is referred to
00:13:16 to under paragraph seven of the matters arising from the 31st of march 2016 meeting uh is discussed and it's in the bought it's the um
00:13:27 and it's in the bought it's the um it's in the meeting pack for what i'm showing you now which is the um meeting of the board of directors of the 24th of november 2016 and the minutes of the 29th of
00:13:38 2016 and the minutes of the 29th of september 16 meeting are at page five just go to that there they are and we can see that you were present
00:13:49 were present at the 29th of september 2016 board meeting
00:13:55 meeting and if we go in that document to page seven
00:13:59 seven we can see item eight which is the minute of the discussion about robert black's report on adair tower chief executives report
00:14:10 on adair tower chief executives report 8-2
00:14:12 8-2 the work at air tower to fit new doors and self-closers has now had now been completed an audit had been carried out by the london fire brigade following the works no feedback had yet been received but no
00:14:23 no feedback had yet been received but no concerns were apparent while the london fire brigade was on site the chief executive had visited at a tower recently and was very impressed with the work being carried out following the fire in a block of flats and shepard bush caused by a faulty
00:14:35 and shepard bush caused by a faulty tumble dryer it was asked if residents had been warned about these tumble dryers an article had gone up in the link detailing the details of the particular dryers this would also
00:14:46 of the particular dryers this would also be followed up through work with the ras and compacts to spread the information now the the prosecution or intended or
00:14:58 prosecution or intended or anticipated prosecution of of the tmo under the enforcement notices is not expressly mentioned in these minutes
00:15:07 minutes but if we look at paragraph 8.4 we could see a discussion and it says this the london fire brigade had asked for the names and addresses of all the residents so that they could speak to
00:15:19 residents so that they could speak to them about why they called the fire brigade which was contrary to the stay put policy operated the arbeit rbkc had been informed at all stages of this investigation as well as their solicitors no timeline had been made available from
00:15:30 no timeline had been made available from the london fire brigade as to when the report would be completed
00:15:35 now i've read you a lot of this because i'm trying to provoke your recollection but do you remember any discussion at this meeting late september 2016
00:15:47 september 2016 about the possibility of the tma being prosecuted by the lfb in respect of the matters the subject of the ader tower enforcement notices i think that the borough had already been advised that there was no intention
00:15:59 been advised that there was no intention to prosecute but i can't you know i can't remember the actual date that happened right look it looks from this the discussion centered on uh an update and there's no minuted
00:16:10 uh an update and there's no minuted concern about the prospects of prosecution does that accord with your recollection if that's what it says here right i'm in the minutes i mean the minutes were not um verbatim
00:16:21 i mean the minutes were not um verbatim records
00:16:24 right sadly are you able to help us with why at least as a matter of record the board wasn't concerned about a prosecution arising from fire safety deficiencies at atar or hazelwood it maybe because the
00:16:37 atar or hazelwood it maybe because the borough had already been told that there would be no prosecution but as i said i can't remember the actual time dates
00:16:45 right
00:16:49 then let's go to robert black's report for the the meeting at which these minutes were approved which is as i say the 24th of november 2016 board meeting
00:17:00 2016 board meeting um that report starts in the board pack for that meeting we've just looked at at page 47. so tmo10015198 page 47.
00:17:17 so there's no date on that no um it's a gender item 10 of the november meeting for the november meeting right okay thank you and uh if we look and see where robert black's report
00:17:29 black's report this is the start of it as you can see that page
00:17:32 that page but if we look on we can see page 58 item 9
00:17:40 health and safety update and under 9 0.1
00:17:51 he gives an update there
00:17:57 and you can see under 9.2 adair tower lfb's quote ongoing investigation on requesting an update tmo staff were advised in october that the lfb temporarily placed this on
00:18:09 that the lfb temporarily placed this on hold due to internal staffing issues however their intention was to resume the investigation in early november once the nfb paperwork has been completed on the post notice audits they will have another case conference to consider this investigation
00:18:20 consider this investigation but this documentation will be provided to the legal and enforcement team we're hopeful that a final decision will then be reached however there remains no firm time scale for this now just on that do you recall that as
00:18:31 now just on that do you recall that as at the 24th of november 2016 the lfb's investigation was still ongoing i don't recollect it and that therefore there was still the risk of prosecution i don't recognize right and then at uh
00:18:43 i don't recognize right and then at uh uh
00:18:43 uh 9.3 there's a decision or an agreement to appoint legal counsel uh to advise of any action to take
00:18:53 and then at 10 we go to 10 at the very foot of the page onto page 59 and over onto page 59 um kctmo fire policy and strategy
00:19:04 um kctmo fire policy and strategy it says this policy is currently being reviewed following detailed discussions with the tmo's health and safety committee in particular the main proposed changes include and then the first is
00:19:15 include and then the first is the need to adopt a more proactive approach to the installation of self-closing devices to flat entrance doors across the stock recommendation is for an installation program over several years second bullet increasing the frequency
00:19:27 second bullet increasing the frequency of the comprehensive fire risk assessment reviews and third program of installation of fire action notices in the communal entrance lobbies of all blocks and then it goes on to deal with storage
00:19:40 and then it goes on to deal with storage charging mobility scooters hoarders and managed use of communal space and then it says at the bottom after the bullet points the redrafted document will be submitted to the next health and
00:19:52 will be submitted to the next health and safety committee and will include indicative costings of the proposals any proposed changes to the policy will require approval from the board and rbkc did robert black explain why these
00:20:04 did robert black explain why these proposed changes were needed sorry was i at that meeting
00:20:11 the november meeting we'd only know that from the minutes but even if you weren't would you have not have read this chief executive's report at the time i would have read it yeah sorry can you
00:20:24 i would have read it yeah sorry can you go back to the question i forgot the question now no it isn't the question the question is did he give any explanation as to why any changes like this were needed let me ask it a different way
00:20:36 did you ever ask him or did you ever receive
00:20:40 receive an explanation of why these proposed changes were needed um i thought that the board had agreed on 6 january that that we would ask for these matters to be investigated
00:20:53 6th of january 2016. yes so is that 2015 i'm lost on the dates i'm afraid this is now
00:21:01 now november 2016. yeah so did robert black ever explain to you to the best of your knowledge why these changes were needed uh well not not directly to me no i don't you may advise the board i don't recollect
00:21:15 advise the board i don't recollect uh can we then look at paragraph 11 in this and i'll take this this as quickly as i can lfb deficiency note is received uh and then it refers to the deficiency
00:21:26 uh and then it refers to the deficiency notice
00:21:27 notice um if one understand take undertaking their order at the lfb consider there are deficiencies which require our attention which are not significant enough to warrant an enforcement notice they will issue a deficiency notice
00:21:38 they will issue a deficiency notice just pausing there was this the first time that you learned that that was the process which the lfb would adopt yes these documents have no legal standing but the lfb do include a
00:21:49 legal standing but the lfb do include a time frame within which they expect landlords to comply and in the event of non-compliance there's the possibility that these could be escalated
00:21:55 escalated and an enforcement note is served we've recently received a deficiency notice in relation to the lfb's audit of lonsdale house portobello court estate several months ago then it says this just to focus on it the issue
00:22:07 this just to focus on it the issue raised relates to flat entrance doors and the requirement for us to undertake regular inspection of self-closing devices on these doors the tenant stores at this block were replaced with fully fire-rated
00:22:18 replaced with fully fire-rated self-cleaning compliant door sets within the last four years and so we are surprised to have received this notice discussions with the lfb's fire safety team are ongoing in relation to these specific requirements
00:22:29 to these specific requirements so it looks from this that on top of the potential prosecution for the ad air tower fire and the changes to the fire strategy the board are now being told that a deficiency notice had been received in relation to
00:22:40 notice had been received in relation to lonsdale house
00:22:44 and also in relation to door closes my question is did this now ring alarm bells at board level
00:22:51 level uh with the efficacy of the fire risk assessments and actions arising as a result i think to the best of my recollection this was also being discussed at the
00:23:03 this was also being discussed at the housing and property scrutiny committee and laura johnson had advised us that there was a full programme going to be all being put in place as we spoke that's
00:23:15 being put in place as we spoke that's all i recollect right did you get the sense that door closes
00:23:19 closes was something of a borough wide endemic problem well yes because laura johnson mentioned it
00:23:27 so you wouldn't be surprised then to to see that there was a deficiency notice from the lfb in respect of door closes at lonsdale house probably not right now the minute
00:23:39 probably not right now the minute is that of this the discussion of this report is at tm00841883
00:23:50 report is at tm00841883 uh and just to make it clear as a matter of record you were at this meeting okay good uh uh and the reference for the minutes for the november meeting at tmo double zero eight eight six
00:24:01 double zero eight eight six eight two nine there's no need to go to that but i've read that into the record the minutes of the discussion of what i'm showing you now is a tmo
00:24:11 00841883 this is page 1 and this is the board meeting and uh the agenda is at page two as you can see
00:24:21 see uh and uh if you go please to page ten in in that
00:24:27 uh run of documents you can see chief executives report and under 8.4 it says the works required by the london fire brigade enforcement notices
00:24:38 brigade enforcement notices were successfully completed with the within the extended time scales agreed by the lfb the fire risk assessments for these blocks were also comprehensively reviewed at the conclusion of the work and the lfb provided with all relevant documentation
00:24:49 documentation the lfb inspecting officers undertook their post notice inspection at air tower on 28th of september 2016 and at hazelwood tower on 15th of november in 2016
00:25:00 november in 2016 formal notification of the outcome of these inspections was awaited and then the chief executive's report was noted now there doesn't appear to have been any discussion either of
00:25:11 to have been any discussion either of the changes to the fire strategy or of the potential prosecution or the deficiency notice for lonsdale house can you help us understand why there was no such discussion well there may have been discussion but the discussion wouldn't
00:25:22 discussion but the discussion wouldn't have been minuted because the minutes were not verbatim records no um do you remember independently any discussion of any of those topics i can't remember sorry and what about dawkins sorry can i just ask you i mean
00:25:34 dawkins sorry can i just ask you i mean if you felt that significant matters had been omitted from the minutes no doubt that would have been raised at the next meeting wouldn't it well in the past i'd raised the fact that
00:25:46 in the past i'd raised the fact that some issues i had raised had not been minuted
00:25:49 minuted and at that point i was told that they were not verbatim records they were just records of what was agreed so i'd already challenged that the way well it's always open presumably
00:26:01 the way well it's always open presumably to the board as a whole either to adopt the minutes as they were presented in draft or to ask to have them corrected or supplemented well that was open to the
00:26:12 supplemented well that was open to the board i mean it wasn't open to me because i'd already raised it no no but someone's got to raise it with the board in order for the board to make a decision about it well i had done in the past yes but there was no limit to the number of times you could do it also well the
00:26:24 times you could do it also well the answer would have been the same well it might have been it perhaps might not do you think well it would have depended a lot on who'd raised it if i'd raised it it certainly wouldn't have been
00:26:34 been um accepted why do you say that well because most of the things that i said were not accepted at board meetings that's why they weren't minuted are you are you is it your recollection
00:26:47 are you are you is it your recollection that you were something of a lone voice on the board yes i thought i put that in one of my statements i see and therefore uh is it right that if you had wanted to raise something
00:26:58 if you had wanted to raise something which you thought was relevant which had been discussed and wanted to insert that into the minute you would be rebuffed
00:27:05 rebuffed well i mean i cite as an example my concern about the internal tmo review of the works done at grenfell tower which i had challenged and that was completely
00:27:16 challenged and that was completely ignored and i wasn't allowed to speak to it even and we'll come back to that topic later and can you can you tell us who it was
00:27:27 and can you can you tell us who it was in the main who to whom you would address your suggestions and by whom you would be rebuffed
00:27:33 rebuffed robert black relating to the board in relation to the board yeah was that your was that your routine experience well i mean i'd given up with the board frankly
00:27:44 up with the board frankly i'm sorry i keep interrupting but i just like to understand this position mr black was the chief executive was he a member of the board he wasn't was he no the the board was um the non-executives but the executive and
00:27:56 the non-executives but the executive and the chief exec executive reported to the board and attended board meetings well of course but um i assumed that the board was being that the board meetings were run by the chairman
00:28:09 meetings were run by the chairman well i can only go back to what i was asked about mrs edwards's the chair of the board
00:28:15 the board her witness statement that i agreed with where she said that she felt that the residents didn't run the board
00:28:26 i paraphrased i can't remember exactly what she said in her statement but i agreed with it but who did run the board the chief executive
00:28:36 sorry forgiving in in practice as as opposed to i mean we've discussed this before the theory
00:28:43 theory and the practice tended to be different yes you have said that and that was very clear on in your evidence on thursday um if you had wanted
00:28:54 um if you had wanted your if you had wanted a discussion or or or perhaps even a decision taken held or taken at a board meeting to be recorded in the board minutes
00:29:06 to be recorded in the board minutes why wouldn't it be the chairman's decision whether or not the minute should reflect that discussion or decision as opposed to robert black who was not on the board well i i i can best give you an example i think there
00:29:18 best give you an example i think there was something that the board agreed which i wanted my name recorded against and the moment i said i wanted my name recorded against there was a huge row blew up as to why
00:29:31 i'm really just trying to get a feel for why robert black to your recollection was interfering with matters of board governance in respect of a board of which he was not a member
00:29:43 which he was not a member because the executive officers reported to the board they produced the reports we questioned the reports yes but the matter of keeping records of
00:29:55 yes but the matter of keeping records of the board is the matter for the board not the executive team so why weren't the why weren't the records of the board solely the domain of the board well as i said i'd challenge them in the
00:30:07 well as i said i'd challenge them in the past and been rebuffed i don't know if other people yes who by whom on the board have you been rebuffed uh nobody as far as i recollect
00:30:18 uh nobody as far as i recollect right now let's um uh let's look at what happened a week before this board meeting uh on the 17th of november 2016.
00:30:29 uh on the 17th of november 2016. and can we go to tm010017254 please
00:30:42 this is a deficiency notice issued by the lfb in respect of grenfell tower dated the 17th of november 2016 as you can see and it's addressed to janice ray and if you look at the first
00:30:55 janice ray and if you look at the first paragraph towards the bottom of your screen it's the last sentence action to be taken by 18th of may 2017 and if you go to page five you'll see the schedule of observations
00:31:07 the schedule of observations and i'll summarize these for you on this page and the next uh in summary the lfb wanted action on the
00:31:14 the on the following under under article 11 you can see multiple actions in the common parts as they call it several fire doors didn't fit fully into their frames breach and the services
00:31:25 their frames breach and the services duct
00:31:26 duct article 17 1 the first one is several fire doors didn't fit fully into the frame
00:31:31 frame and the second one the protected route had been compromised by the fitting of doors that didn't close flats 44 and 153 were checked and did not self-close article 14 that is on the next page
00:31:42 article 14 that is on the next page article 14 twice uh emergency roots or exits inadequate in that there were various items stored in the common parts and again in the second one emergency roots inadequate in that the two doors
00:31:54 roots inadequate in that the two doors did not self-close and then article eight smoke spread precautions inadequate due to a breach and the service is docked on the eighth floor
00:32:02 floor and article 15 1 fire action notices not displayed i've summarized these um did you see this note it's all the schedule of the notice at the time do you think
00:32:12 you think no certainly not certainly not you're very clear about that yes the first time i saw it was when it was submitted to this inquiry i see so you weren't even made aware of it
00:32:23 so you weren't even made aware of it right
00:32:25 right it would have supported the arguments i was making that i was having with the tmo and with laura johnson about the fire problems at grenfell tower yeah
00:32:38 problems at grenfell tower yeah do you agree that it is by the middle of november 2016 absolutely clear that the lfb were concerned about the self-closure issue if i can call it it's clear from this yes it wasn't clear at the time it was clear that
00:32:49 at the time it was clear that i had concerns the residents had concerns the matrixes which i agreed with mr thompson and mr daffan pointed this out
00:32:59 this out yes and those to be clear in chronological terms were august 2015 and may 2016 weren't they
00:33:12 do you know whether this notice was raised
00:33:17 raised under any other business at the 24th of november 2016 meeting not so recollect no i mean on your evidence it can't have been otherwise you would have known about it of course i would yeah i would have used it in my submissions
00:33:30 i would have used it in my submissions to the tmo and laura johnson about my concerns
00:33:33 concerns and the concerns of residents about fire safety at grenfell tower yeah and does it follow from that answer that it ought to have been raised with the board
00:33:43 board absolutely yeah can we then go to and with the borough
00:33:51 can we then go to tm0100-45908 please
00:33:59 this is uh an email from you on the 23rd of november 2016. that's an important date because it's the day before
00:34:10 the day before the board meeting of the 24th of november 2016 the minutes of which we've now
00:34:15 now seen and we've seen the ambit of the discussion which was why i've shown that to you already and here is your email and the topic um is grenfell tower brackets again
00:34:28 is grenfell tower brackets again exclamation mark close bracket and it says while mr dufan engages in hyperbole in his grenfell action group blog it is read by most
00:34:41 action group blog it is read by most residents of the tower and the most recent article causes me concern
00:34:45 concern mr defan discussed the fire safety issue with me at a recent meeting and i did point out that the instructions in the event of a fire had been included in one of the refurbishment newsletters
00:34:56 refurbishment newsletters however i do take his point that instructions are not permanently available on noticeboards nor in a discrete letter to all residents and inappropriate languages where required and i am asking whether this can be rectified
00:35:10 and then you set out the content as an extract from the most recent uh blog
00:35:18 blog and uh you can see that he refers to the uh enforcement order which dates back to earlier in the year in respect to the tower uh
00:35:32 if we go up to page one we can see janice ray's response to you on the next day 24th of november 2016 at 08 51 and she says dear counselor blakeman
00:35:45 and she says dear counselor blakeman copy to robert black and barbara matthews robert has asked me to respond to your email highlighting fire safety issues raised by mr dufan in his blog with regard to fire procedures in
00:35:56 with regard to fire procedures in grenfell tower i can confirm that these were included in newsletters to the block
00:36:00 block and they are also documented on our website further we do publish regular fire safety articles in the link magazine to all residents and we write to all new tenants to outline the fire strategy for their block
00:36:11 block the procedure to follow in the event of a fire in their flat and also a fire elsewhere in their block and advise them of the london fire brigades lfb free home fire safety visit and how to access this
00:36:23 fire safety visit and how to access this additionally i can advise that we are currently considering a program of installation of fire action notices similar to those now installed at air and hazelwood towers across all blocks there has been a difference of opinion
00:36:35 there has been a difference of opinion amongst london fire brigade officers on the value of fitting these notices within a block with a staple fire strategy however we are keen to be proactive about this and i can confirm that we will be proceeding with the fitting of these notices at
00:36:46 with the fitting of these notices at grenfell tower it is likely that this will be completed within the next two weeks
00:36:51 weeks however mr defan appears to be challenging the stay put fire strategy stating that this is the wrong strategy and that we should be adopting a one-out-all-out approach at grenfell tower
00:37:00 tower i would emphasize that that despite extensive discussions with the lfb and other fire professionals including our fire consultant and senior consultants from specialist fire engineering companies in relation to grenfell tower
00:37:12 companies in relation to grenfell tower at no point is the need to change the state put strategy ever been raised further the lfb operational crews continue to be very proactive about undertaking regular familiarization visits
00:37:22 visits to this block and other blocks on this estate and remain content with the arrangements in place finally with regard to the mention of a fatal fire
00:37:30 fire at hazelwood tower 10 years ago i'm afraid i have no knowledge of this however i have requested that the lfb interrogate their records and advise on this
00:37:37 this i'm also unclear on the reference to the fire investigation team ordered that the grills on the fire escape staircase be covered over quite some quotes i can confirm the dead air tower was regularly audited by the lfb
00:37:47 lfb most recently in the month before the fire took place and no recommendations were made in relation to the design of either staircase or the lift lobbies requirements in relation to these areas was included in the enforcement
00:37:58 areas was included in the enforcement notices as it was only following the fire
00:38:00 fire that lfb recommended that changes to the building's original design were required i hope this is helpful but please let me know if i can be a further assistance and i said i read that all to you
00:38:11 said i read that all to you um because it's all important but this email
00:38:15 email as i pointed out was sent to you at 08 51 am
00:38:19 51 am did you receive this before the tmo board meeting on the 24th of november 2016 which is late do you remember reading it oh yeah before the board meeting i don't know about reading it before the board
00:38:31 about reading it before the board meeting i doubt it somehow your concern was fire safety and specifically fire safety instructions to residents
00:38:38 residents is that right well that's what the residents had asked me to raise yes uh do you know why you didn't at least according to the record we've seen the minutes we've seen you didn't raise that those concerns at the
00:38:49 didn't raise that those concerns at the tmo board meeting well i may have done but they wouldn't have been minuted i see do you recall doing so independently can't remember janice ray says or suggests at least that there was a plan to install fire
00:39:01 that there was a plan to install fire action notices at grenfell tower within two weeks
00:39:04 two weeks did you know at the time that that was related to the to the deficiency notice at grenfell tower presumably not in light of your last answers no would you have expected janice ray to refer to the
00:39:16 have expected janice ray to refer to the deficiency notice for grenfell tower in her
00:39:19 her email to you in answering your concern well certainly if i'd known about it yes no even if particularly if you hadn't known about it would you have expected her to be candid with you and tell you that there had been a deficiency notice
00:39:30 that there had been a deficiency notice yes but that would have then supported my argument that there were problems at grenfell tower about fire safety so you agree yeah yeah
00:39:45 and i think it's right just to confirm at this stage you did not know or still did not know that that before the fire at air tower the lfb had issued a deficiency notice in respect to that
00:39:57 deficiency notice in respect to that building no no now as you see in the last paragraph janice ray said that the lfb had audited adair tower a month before the fire and no recommendations were made in relation to the design of the staircase
00:40:09 relation to the design of the staircase and the lift lobbies did that lead you to believe that the lfb had not identified any other concerns at aired at adair tower before the fire in that building
00:40:21 well i hadn't seen the deficiency exactly right and therefore did what well let me ask it this way what did her representations in that last paragraph about adair tower
00:40:33 in that last paragraph about adair tower and the audit by the lfb lead you to think
00:40:35 think about what the lfb had thought about at air tower before the fire in that building
00:40:39 building well i suspect it would have led me to believe that everything was okay at their tower and hazel would turn now the next board meeting as i say was 10th of january 2017.
00:40:50 january 2017. we haven't yet seen the minutes of that there are tmo one double zero four six nine six zero at page six if we can just go to those
00:41:04 uh and we can see uh that uh you are present as one of the two council nominated board members there with faye edwards in the chair uh if we
00:41:16 with faye edwards in the chair uh if we can go please to a paragraph 6.4 on page 8.
00:41:22 we can see the minutes of the discussion uh a member queried whether the london fire brigades lfb investigation into the fire dead air had
00:41:33 investigation into the fire dead air had been concluded the executive director of financial services and ict informed the board that the nfp had not yet closed the investigation the solicitors at rbkc had been briefed in the event of a prosecution
00:41:44 prosecution the company had carried out the works as specified in the enforcement notices the executive team had visited both and hazelwood buildings to see the completed works
00:41:53 works the strategy is being developed to install self-closures to all flat entry doors across all the properties managed in response to a question from a board member the executive director of financial services and ict confirmed that a fire risk
00:42:05 and ict confirmed that a fire risk assessment had been completed after the works had been carried out which showed the improvements from the management actions and remedial works there were a number of lessons learned from the incident which would be taken into account
00:42:16 into account now the last sentence of paragraph or section 6.4 there about the strategy to install self-closers to all flat entry doors across all properties managed
00:42:28 managed given the lack of self-closers was an issue at the in the adair tower fire and also an issue as we've seen now from the deficiency notice in respect of grenfell did you get the
00:42:41 in respect of grenfell did you get the sense at this meeting that the installation of these door closes across the borough was was a matter of the utmost urgency or not
00:42:49 or not well i would have done but laura johnson deferred the whole program as i recollect
00:42:56 recollect from from the housing and property scrutiny committee meetings that i was at
00:43:01 at yes i'm asking you really your impression as best you can recall it whether the board was given the impression that this was an urgent matter being urgently
00:43:12 this was an urgent matter being urgently remedied or or not i can't recall it is do you accept that the board ought to have demanded a tight and detailed timetable for the installation of door closers
00:43:23 installation of door closers rather than accept accepting the suggestion of a strategy quotes on quotes
00:43:30 quotes being quotes developed quite some quotes all i can say to that is i suspect the board assumed the strategy meant that it was going to be implemented right but how quickly
00:43:42 be implemented right but how quickly well do you have any sense of urgency no shouldn't you have done shouldn't the board have taken the bull by the horns and demanded a rapid
00:43:53 by the horns and demanded a rapid rollout of a door closer program across the borough the board may have done i don't recollect don't recollect that right again there's no mention here
00:44:04 right again there's no mention here of the grenfell tower deficiency notice of the 17th of november 2016 that i've shown
00:44:08 shown i've shown you do you recall whether this document was mentioned at all no i i knew nothing about it until this inquiry yeah can we then look at next at the chief
00:44:20 can we then look at next at the chief executive report for the next meeting 23rd of march 2017
00:44:27 tm01046960 at page six
00:44:34 that's this is his report i'm sorry this is the
00:44:39 is the this is the january uh
00:44:45 uh this is the minute of the january meeting
00:44:49 meeting um the report is for the 23rd of march 2017
00:44:55 2017 uh and we need to go i think to page 10 in this run of documents
00:45:06 uh and that's the first page and you can see that there's a synopsis
00:45:12 uh and item five in the synopsis is health and safety including fire safety if you can see that and then if you go to page 15 please
00:45:23 and then if you go to page 15 please let's look at item five second paragraph
00:45:28 uh second main paragraph under adair tower lfb's ongoing investigation quotes the lfb's fire safety team leader advised at the regular lfb stroke tmo
00:45:41 advised at the regular lfb stroke tmo liaison meeting in january that the nfp had held a further case conference on this issue in the first week in january and their conclusion had been that there was enough evidence to prove offences but also a lot of mitigating circumstances
00:45:54 the question of whether a prosecution would be in the public interest is apparently still to be addressed now if there'd be in any doubt at all in your mind about the status of that in
00:46:06 your mind about the status of that in that prosecution it do you accept that it was clear from that report that there was now sufficient evidence for a criminal prosecution over the adair tower fire i don't think it says that
00:46:18 it says that well it says the lfb's conclusion had been that there was enough evidence to prove offenses but also a lot of mitigating circumstances whatever they were right well what was your reaction well
00:46:29 right well what was your reaction well do you remember this discussion no right so you don't remember your reaction to the update about the possibility of prosecution no was i at that meeting yes you were
00:46:40 no was i at that meeting yes you were okay
00:46:43 okay uh if we go onto page 16
00:46:49 lfp notices of fire safety deficiencies and there's a long list here but it says if whilst undertaking an audit the lfp consider that there are deficiencies which require attention but which are
00:47:00 which require attention but which are not significant enough to warrant an enforcement notice they will issue a deficiency notice these documents have no legal standing but the lfb do include a time frame within which they expect landlords to
00:47:11 within which they expect landlords to comply
00:47:12 comply further in the event of non-compliance there is the possibility that these could be escalated and an enforcement note is served and then this
00:47:20 then this since the fire at a tower in october 2015
00:47:24 2015 the tmo have received nine deficiency notices in relation to the following blocks
00:47:29 blocks balfour house on balfour burley estate five notices in november 2015 that's about communal storage barrendon
00:47:40 that's about communal storage barrendon walk
00:47:40 walk lancaster west about the design glazed roof
00:47:45 roof nine coalville square and that's about stapled
00:47:51 stapled uh lonsdale house which is about self-closing devices grenfell tower self-closing devices and then a paragraph underneath it
00:48:02 and then a paragraph underneath it self-closing devices on flat entrance doors
00:48:05 doors the need to adopt a more proactive approach towards the retro fitting of self-closing devices on flat entrance doors
00:48:12 doors throughout the housing stock was recognized as part of the thorough review of our fire policy and strategy this is necessary to satisfy the lfb's requirements as they have confirmed that they consider our previous policy would
00:48:23 they consider our previous policy would take too long to ensure 100 of tenanted doors are fitted with those these devices a change should also reduce the likelihood of further lfp deficiency notice is being
00:48:34 deficiency notice is being issued on the basis of absence self-closers the tmo is therefore currently in discussion with rbkc about the possibility of introducing a three or five year program to install self-closing devices across the stock
00:48:47 now there's a lot of text there that i've read to you but a number of questions which arise first of all nine deficiency notices um surely that was to the board a red flag
00:48:59 surely that was to the board a red flag for the tmo that something wasn't quite right with how the tma were going about managing fire safety in their stock do you accept that yes do you remember that no you don't remember being
00:49:10 that no you don't remember being impressed
00:49:11 impressed or depressed perhaps there were nine deficiency notices probably but i i i couldn't did you note that the final bullet point related to grenfell tower and the maintenance of flat
00:49:22 tower and the maintenance of flat entrance door self-closures something close to your heart yeah yeah i may have noticed that i don't know right you can't remember right and and i've shown you the
00:49:32 the paragraph under the heading self-closing devices on flat entrance doors given that there had been um issues or problems with self-closures in adair tower
00:49:43 adair tower to such an extent that the lfb was still considering a prosecution of the tmo was anybody on the tmo board saying three to five years and certainly five years is far too long for this plan
00:49:57 years is far too long for this plan i have no recollection but it was probably because the tmo didn't have the funds to do it did nobody think to go to laura johnson and say five years is certainly too long
00:50:08 and say five years is certainly too long it must be shorter we need the money well i know now that barbara matthews did say that right was there any discussion on the board about the board doing that i can't remember rather than leaving it to
00:50:20 remember rather than leaving it to the officers there may well have been i can't remember right did anybody on the board ask how this apparently generic problem uh penetrating the entirety it seems of
00:50:31 uh penetrating the entirety it seems of the tmo stock at the time had been permitted to arise possibly i can't remember i can't remember did nobody actually ask what you know are these fire risk assessors really competent
00:50:43 assessors really competent to do their job whoever they are i don't think so
00:50:46 think so did nobody ask the question is your system for closing out fire risk assessment items actually working i have no recollection did anybody raise the question of the regularity of inspections of
00:50:57 regularity of inspections of self-closing devices or the maintenance program in respect of those remember well how you were going to stop tenants pulling them off or breaking them or stopping again i don't remember right
00:51:08 right right can we turn to a completely different topic uh which is the complaints process now in your in your time as councillors blakeman
00:51:19 blakeman it's right that you raised a significant number of complaints and concerns on behalf of residents of grenfell tower didn't you amongst other residents yes amongst other residents or amongst other
00:51:30 other residents or amongst other properties sorry amongst other blocks properties estates sometimes right across the whole borough yes i'd like to ask you about your understanding of the process by which residents could raise fire
00:51:41 by which residents could raise fire safety concerns before we look at specific concerns and complaints that you did raise on their behalves
00:51:47 behalves can we start please by looking at your statement to the inquiry rbk3054461 page 16 paragraph 84
00:51:58 and you say there under the heading communications with residents answering the question what system was there if any for residents to express their concerns and views about fire safety you say this
00:52:10 and views about fire safety you say this in theory residents could express their concerns and views to the kctmo to ryden during the refurbishment to rbkc through the gtla and the compact to the lancaster west
00:52:21 and the compact to the lancaster west residents association toward councillors via the grenfell action group blog and directly to cabinet members and the member of parliament now you've described lancaster west
00:52:32 now you've described lancaster west residents association in paragraph 85 if you look a little bit below it below that in the fourth line is rather inactive at the time um what was the time that you're referring to there
00:52:45 referring to there well that that that whole period of the um refurbishment to grenfell tower and before when did the lancaster west residents association cease to be active or cease to be rather
00:52:57 cease to be active or cease to be rather active um i don't recognize when they cease to be active because they were not very active throughout the whole period as i recollect towards the end
00:53:08 recollect towards the end they then had an election and a new committee came in which was much more active but that was very late in the day was it open to grenfell tower residents to join the lancaster west residents
00:53:19 to join the lancaster west residents association well they could have done yes
00:53:22 yes and presumably they could have revived it as well if they thought it was inactive
00:53:25 inactive it would have been like turning around a large tanker because they wanted to join they wanted um to be able to negotiate with the council
00:53:36 to be able to negotiate with the council and ryden and the tmo about the works to grenfell tower if they at the same time had to revive the residents association that covered the whole
00:53:45 whole of the estate which is the big is the biggest in the borough they would have um not had time to raise their issues about grenfell tower i see i see so is that why
00:53:56 i see i see so is that why the revival of the lwra was actually not considered as an option right can we then turn to something called the mammalia report
00:54:07 to something called the mammalia report do you remember that in 2009 maria mamoli an independent adjudicator completed an investigation report on long-standing complaints about the
00:54:18 on long-standing complaints about the tmo
00:54:19 tmo i was told about that i was not involved at the time did you read it at the time no
00:54:24 no you didn't no i was not involved in housing at that time i was told about it by residents did you come to learn the mammalia report yes when was that do
00:54:37 the mammalia report yes when was that do you remember cracking oh well it was during the time when the residents were um up in arms about the refurbishment of grenfell tower so from 2012 is that a i'm guessing no no the
00:54:48 2012 is that a i'm guessing no no the refurbishment didn't start in 2012. well the discussion of it did um yeah but that was just approval of the principle well
00:54:59 principle well can you tell me though when the best of your recollection you first came became aware of the mammalia report um it was probably around about 2014 2015. right let's look at it iws 4-0 is 1462.
00:55:18 there it is that's its first page and on page three we have an executive summary and if we look at the first paragraph it says there are a number of tenants leaseholders and freeholders within the borough of kensington and chelsea
00:55:30 borough of kensington and chelsea who feel aggrieved that their problems have not been resolved by the tmo despite several years of complaining
00:55:38 and then if you look down to the bottom of page
00:55:42 of page three we will need to scroll up for it you can see the the summary of the main recommendations and if we scroll through those you see
00:55:53 and if we scroll through those you see on the bottom of page three customer care straight relations and then on to page four
00:55:58 page four customer services complaints ma repairs major works and service charges and everyone to page five governance issues corporate policy financial issues follow-up and review
00:56:09 follow-up and review uh uh et cetera and page 43 and onwards are the detailed recommendations um you say you first became aware of this dot or read this document
00:56:20 dot or read this document in 2014 you think i became aware of it i didn't read it i didn't have a copy of it
00:56:25 it right when do you think you first read it um when this inquiry started how did you become aware of it do you remember no residents mentioned it to me and so i think it was referred to at the
00:56:37 and so i think it was referred to at the board at one stage i was going to ask you do you remember when it was referred to the board no no it was referred to at the board at a board meeting that i was at yes do you remember when that was no
00:56:49 probably quite early on during my service on the board right do i take from your evidence so far about this document that none of the main recommendations i've i
00:57:00 none of the main recommendations i've i pointed out to you on pages three four and five of this document informed the tmos work when you were a board member i have no idea because the the report was 2009 i joined the board right at the end of 2012
00:57:13 the board right at the end of 2012 by which time i understood that the mammalian report recommendations had been implemented when you joined the board in in in that year did somebody tell you there was a mammalia report but
00:57:25 tell you there was a mammalia report but not to worry about it because the recommendations had been implemented no so when you say by which time i understood that mammalia report recommendations have been implemented when did when did that understanding uh first come into your
00:57:36 understanding uh first come into your mind
00:57:37 mind well it didn't it didn't sort of occur in one go
00:57:41 in one go it kind of occurred over the years as as i was on the board right can you can we just try and break this down a bit and see if we can get get to what happens so you say the it was the residents
00:57:52 was the residents who first brought the existence of the mammalia report to your attention yes so does that tell us that that when you joined the board and thereafter until the resident told you about it you
00:58:03 until the resident told you about it you had no idea about it
00:58:06 no it was never discussed that a board member it was certainly wasn't discussed at the board when i was there um do you remember who it was who first
00:58:14 first brought the existence of the mammalia report to your attention i think it may have been mr montero from world's end i see not somebody from lancaster west or grenfell
00:58:28 and when he brought it to your attention did you
00:58:32 did you go and see if you could find a copy no why is that no time no time uh did you ever see the adjudication judgment draft or final of somebody
00:58:43 judgment draft or final of somebody called john butler of july 2009 no did you ever see a follow-up document which was the appendix to that document uh about what should be done by
00:58:55 document uh about what should be done by the tmo
00:58:56 the tmo in response to the mammalia recommendations no do you know at all even now what role the board of the tmo played in following up on the mammalia
00:59:07 played in following up on the mammalia recommendations and the butler report i only know that they got a new chief executive
00:59:13 executive and they they got rid of some of the members of the actual resident members of the board
00:59:21 without all that was before my time on the board
00:59:26 and when in 2014 you became aware of the existence of the mammalia report did you go to any other member of the board and say i i hear that there's this ball at this report from 2009 i'd like to
00:59:39 at this report from 2009 i'd like to look at it please because i'm getting complaints about it about no i wasn't getting complaints about it
00:59:45 about it people were um harking back and saying what they needed was another memorial report
00:59:52 report i see is it right that nobody was saying to you at the time the mammalian recommendations have not been carried into effect so far as we can see
00:59:59 can see i follow can we go to met three zeros four five seven five one please
01:00:09 uh this is your police statement and can we go to page 12 in that please this is your 28th june 2019 uh metropolitan police statement page 12.
01:00:20 12. second paragraph from the bottom of the page you say this i would say that generally the tmo treated the residents and ward councillors with a fair amount of disdain
01:00:29 disdain any issues raised were deemed an exaggeration and it seemed that the tma believed that ward councillors were being pushed by the grenfell action group as we didn't like what was being written about us
01:00:39 us this was not the case although some of the things that appeared on the gag blog about the ward councillors were unjustified other matters raised by gag were absolutely justified however as i mentioned above gag's
01:00:50 however as i mentioned above gag's apparent belief that if the ward councillors had opposed the school it wouldn't have been a it wouldn't have been built was unrealistic [Applause] what led you to believe that the tmo
01:01:01 what led you to believe that the tmo treated both residents and ward cancers with disdain because they did
01:01:06 they did no but what led you to believe that well for example the response to all my complaints was that attitude always prevalent in your experience as a board member if the complaint was simple and it could
01:01:18 if the complaint was simple and it could be resolved then it would be resolved
01:01:23 but for example the mattresses that i submitted i mean
01:01:29 i mean we discussed this on thursday that their responses to me tended to be bland
01:01:34 bland reassurances rather than active responses
01:01:46 now can we go to tm0088541
01:01:54 this is a tmo operations committee meeting
01:02:02 on the 1st of october 2014 and we can see that you were there
01:02:14 as present and if you go to page three and look at agenda item seven please performance update
01:02:22 update you can see that there was a discussion about the tma's performance and if we go over to page four paragraph seven point eight
01:02:34 seven point eight it says deborah price questioned how issues raised by residents could be addressed
01:02:39 addressed which had somehow bypassed the complaints process yet resolved committee members thought that there was some ambiguity around how an inquiry progressed to a formal complaint although it was confirmed that
01:02:50 complaint although it was confirmed that these were also responded to simon bristenden felt that there was a gray area at the start of the process as it could prove difficult to establish when a complaint was originally raised by stage three of the process and then
01:03:03 by stage three of the process and then at 7.9 it says the committee also questioned whether there was any guidance on the online complaints process confirmation was given that the complaints procedure was being reviewed and committee members concerns would be addressed
01:03:15 addressed do you remember whether there was any substantive difference in how a complaint or an inquiry was treated by the tmo
01:03:25 in other words any difference between treatment of a complaint on the one hand and treatment of an inquiry on the other well at that stage i don't think i realized that they were treating some issues as inquiries and others as
01:03:37 issues as inquiries and others as complaints so i can't answer that it says at 7.8 committee members thought that there was some ambiguity around how an inquiry progressed to a formal complaint
01:03:48 formal complaint and simon briston said that there was a grey area do you remember yourself feeling that the complaints process was confusing
01:03:56 confusing as between a what is properly a complaint and what was properly an inquiry as defined well i asked for the kpi to be changed
01:04:07 well i asked for the kpi to be changed to ensure that councillor's inquiries we're included in the kpi because they weren't and that's kpi yeah um from the resident's
01:04:19 that's kpi yeah um from the resident's perspective was it your impression that there was confusion
01:04:24 confusion about which process to use an inquiry pressure yes a huge confusion i mean an awful lot of residents didn't understand the tmos complaints process at all that's why they came to us i see um can we uh
01:04:37 i see um can we uh look please at tm00879
01:04:44 this is the tmo complaints policy which was revised on the 30th of july 2015
01:04:53 2015 and agreed by the tmo board the board including you on the 10th of september 2015. the earlier version i should just tell you was dated 2010.
01:05:04 was dated 2010. that's the document and it was presented to the tmo operations committee on the 30th of july 2015 in in accordance with that uh notation
01:05:15 in in accordance with that uh notation and we see uh those minutes at tmo double zero eight eight five nine zero zero please
01:05:26 i'll just show you the first page of that
01:05:29 that we can see that these are the minutes of the operations committee on the 30th of july 2015 and you are present as the council appointed board member
01:05:39 member see that and if we go to page five in the document paragraph 10.5 we can see that it says under the heading revision of the complaints policy at the top of this
01:05:50 complaints policy at the top of this section
01:05:51 section 10.5 brendan tracy sought clarity on whether the provisions around the use of the complaints procedure by kctmo board members councillors mps and other elected representatives
01:06:02 other elected representatives to make complaints on behalf of their constituents would not be considered as a conflict of interest particularly for board member fellow cofidia okay confirmed that the provisions of the clause would
01:06:13 that the provisions of the clause would result in a conflict as board members could not use their position to act on behalf of residents and any board members involvement in such matters would be limited to sign posting residents or making no reference to
01:06:24 residents or making no reference to their position janet seward agreed to delete the wording from the revised policy what was the concern do you remember about tmo board members making complaints on behalf of constituents
01:06:37 complaints on behalf of constituents i don't remember the concern i do remember being challenged by the chief executive at one board meeting about my perceived conflict of interest and i remember answering that by saying that i was
01:06:49 answering that by saying that i was elected to represent the interests of nottingdale residents and that would always be my priority was that
01:06:57 that in early 2016 in relation to the tmo uh investigation of the no no no much earlier than that much earlier than that do you remember what it was what it was well that was in
01:07:08 what it was what it was well that was in connection with do you remember this meeting and what this concern was about about board members making complaints
01:07:18 unless it related to me i don't know by removing the wording to this effect from the policy was it agreed you remember that the board members could not make complaints on behalf of their constituents if they were also a councillor i
01:07:31 if they were also a councillor i remember having a meeting with paula cafadia about it and i remember advising the both the labour group and the council i think that in that case
01:07:43 think that in that case if this were the case then no counsellor who had any tmo property in their ward could actually be on the board right and what did you think of that well i
01:07:54 and what did you think of that well i thought that was absurd that's what i was getting there was only about one more one more that didn't have any cmo property in it well i was going to ask you surely this conflict i identified in this minute here was
01:08:06 identified in this minute here was inherent
01:08:07 inherent in the idea that councillors could sit on the tmo board yeah yeah so so if that's the case why was it a conflict do you did you understand for a board member to support or assist
01:08:18 support or assist with a complaint by a resident about the service provided by the tmo well i don't think it was a conflict who was pushing the idea that this was a conflict um robert black i think but he wasn't on
01:08:29 um robert black i think but he wasn't on the board no so how could he push it what power would he have sorry no no he would have pushed it as chief executive but it wouldn't have been in his gift to call out conflicts like that would it that would be a that would be for the
01:08:40 that would be a that would be for the chairman or the rest of the board i think i think um conflicts were called out by
01:08:45 out by um members of the executive from time to time what did the rest of the board think of
01:08:49 think of of this idea i'm not sure they understood it
01:08:55 it was the idea of having a tmo board comprised in part at least of people like you um that the board should be impartial and and independent supervising the work of
01:09:08 and independent supervising the work of the executive officers
01:09:13 if you look at the role of counsellors under the council constitution it one of our roles is to sit on boards as determined by the council
01:09:25 as determined by the council and my understanding was that councils sitting on the board of the tmo were to ensure that the money was spent properly
01:09:33 properly but was it not also to uh make sure that the work done by the executive team was done properly
01:09:44 i have no idea did you not understand i was never given any induction or any explanations to why i was put on the ball
01:09:51 ball no only that the labour group had one place on the board and i was nominated to it by the labor group yes i'm just trying to get to the bottom of your understanding of what the role of the board was was it your understanding that the role
01:10:02 was it your understanding that the role of the board was to be in an impartial and independent organ supervising and scrutinizing the work of the executive the work of the tmo
01:10:13 the tmo yes the work of the tmo executive i know the work of the whole tmo not just the executive yes you were on the board
01:10:22 and did you understand that the role of the board was to supervise and scrutinize the work of the executive team or to scrutinize and to challenge when they felt it was not being done
01:10:33 when they felt it was not being done properly you did think that yes and therefore that being the case how could there possibly have been a conflict
01:10:39 conflict in taking up causes raised with you by residents
01:10:43 residents which had arisen out of the way in which the tmo executive team had done their work well i never thought there was a conflict
01:10:49 conflict in fact i asked the um of the um borough solicitor about it can you enlighten us as to why anybody would have thought that there was a conflict of this kind as as uh identified or
01:11:01 as as uh identified or reported in this minute well i gather that
01:11:04 that company law says that when the board has made a decision everybody is bound by it whether they agree with it or not no that's not quite an answer to my
01:11:15 no that's not quite an answer to my question are you able to explain the circumstances in which this this notion of a conflict had arisen well i knew that they were very upset with where i was behaving they being whom the board why were they
01:11:28 they being whom the board why were they upset with why was the call because i was submitting complaints to to the tmo to your way of thinking did you think
01:11:35 you think that the rest of the board didn't understand that their roles to be an impartial and independent organ supervising the work of its officers some of them may not have understood that did you get the impression that that was the case yes
01:11:46 the case yes who who did not understand that role it would depend i can't recollect but certainly the council nominees certainly the conservative council the nominee
01:11:58 conservative council the nominee um the council nominees i don't know i can't remember was it your impression from time to time that members of the board would as it were close ranks yes with the tmo executive oh absolutely and
01:12:10 with the tmo executive oh absolutely and what gave you that impression uh the way i was treated in relation to complaints yes
01:12:17 now let's go are we to understand then that the
01:12:22 that the tenant members of the board who were after all in a majority closed ranks against you some of them did yes
01:12:30 did yes not all of them but the majority of them and did you have any understanding as to why they
01:12:37 why they did that well they were trained in being board members by the executive i wasn't
01:12:49 well what what sort of training did they have well i don't know because i wasn't included in it actually yep thank you
01:12:59 were there any other counsellors who shared your view about other board members not understanding the role of the board as an impartial and
01:13:11 of the board as an impartial and independent organ yes who were they the members of the labor group those who bothered who understood what was going on yeah i see it sounds to me as if the impression that you're telling us about
01:13:23 impression that you're telling us about split on party lines yeah is that right yes i see mr german i've got one document before a natural break yes very well thank you now can i get your statement please
01:13:35 your statement please uh at rbk3054461 page 21 paragraph 111.
01:13:47 page 21 paragraph 111. you're dealing with complaints by residents in this section and you say this some fire safety issues were mentioned from time to time on the grenfell action group blog on occasion i would suggest to the chief
01:13:58 on occasion i would suggest to the chief executive robert black that the tma should take the blog seriously but he told me that no one not the tmo ever read it i do not believe that this was true but had no grounds to challenge that
01:14:09 but had no grounds to challenge that assertion
01:14:11 assertion why did you suggest to robert black that he take the gag blog seriously because a lot of the complaints that they raised particularly about fire safety were quite valid in my view
01:14:23 safety were quite valid in my view even though from time to time they were quite rude about you yes yeah i mean that was one of the reasons why i wasn't convinced when robert black told me that nobody at the tmo read the blog
01:14:35 me that nobody at the tmo read the blog because from time to time members of the executive
01:14:38 executive would say to me you've only submitted this complaint because you don't want the gag to write in something nasty about you
01:14:45 about you is that why you believe that the tm that tmo officials did read the gag blog contrary to what robert mcnally telling you
01:14:51 you did he not tell you that the tmo had blocked the gag blog on their system sometime in 2014. that was the effect of claire williams's evidence to the inquiry yeah well that was the first time i heard it
01:15:02 was the first time i heard it right that wasn't your that you didn't know that no i didn't know right did mr black give you the impression that staff at the tmo did not read the gag blog because they didn't take it
01:15:13 gag blog because they didn't take it seriously
01:15:14 seriously or did they did he give the impression that they didn't read it because they didn't want to read criticisms of the tma
01:15:19 tma however colorfully expressed both mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is we'll have a break now um ms blakeman we'll
01:15:29 we'll resume at 25 to 12 please and again i have to ask you not to talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room thank you
01:15:44 25 to 12 please mr willits
01:38:37 would you ask this blatant to come back in please
01:38:49 [Applause]
01:38:53 i'm sorry we kept you waiting a bit longer than i'd suggested i think there was a technical problem so i heard anyway ready to carry on that hope
01:39:02 hope yes mr yes mr chairman ms blakeman just one or two questions arising out of the evidence you gave before the break first um on those occasions when you weren't satisfied that the minutes reflected the discussion or decisions
01:39:14 reflected the discussion or decisions uh held or taken at a board meeting did you not seek at the next board meeting when
01:39:20 when uh looking to adopt the minutes to have those minutes corrected or at least your objection or correction minuted
01:39:28 minuted well as i said earlier i had one meeting tried that and i was told that only the decisions would be minuted so there was not a lot of point in continually raising the same
01:39:39 continually raising the same matter could you not have insisted that your objection itself be minuted well that would have provoked another long long conversation if you recollect
01:39:50 long long conversation if you recollect i also
01:39:51 i also said that there was one occasion when i asked for my descent to a decision to be recorded and that prompted a huge attack on me from robert black
01:40:04 yes did you realize you do realize that the constitution the articles of association of the tma require full and accurate minutes to be maintained don't you well i mean the articles of
01:40:15 articles of association they could have removed me at any time when they wanted as well and if you had a huge attack prompted by this discussion directed at you by robert blagg
01:40:26 robert blagg was your response to robert black not simply to say mr black you are not a member of this board no i'm quite used to being bullied by men
01:40:35 by men well um well you could perhaps have asked the chairman to point out to mr black no doubt very politely well i had no lockers to make no no standing to be making any comments
01:40:47 no no standing to be making any comments in theory
01:40:48 in theory of that in theory yes but i doubt that the
01:40:51 the chair would have um had the courage to do so either well that gives that brings me to the next question did you ever raise your concerns about this way of carrying on corporate governance
01:41:03 way of carrying on corporate governance with the chair i had a meeting with the chair quite late in my board membership which i expressed some concerns about the way i was treated
01:41:19 was treated because at one stage i mean the leader of the labor group was asked to remove me from the board and he refused to do so
01:41:24 so yeah what was the upshot of your discussion with the chair about it um i think we then had a debate about the minutes and then it then there was a fire and right so
01:41:35 it then there was a fire and right so this was late on yeah i see i mean given that the board had a majority of residents as a matter of constitution at least why would um the board as you said
01:41:47 why would um the board as you said before
01:41:48 before regularly close ranks with the executive team
01:41:51 team i don't know you'd have to ask them well i'm asking you though what your perception of that was my perception was that well there were there probably a couple of board members that were sympathetic some of the issues
01:42:02 that were sympathetic some of the issues i raised
01:42:03 i raised one of them was then not re-elected right
01:42:07 right were the were the residents there the resident the residents yes who are on the board not sympathetic to the concerns that you raised not all of them no really can we then
01:42:18 not all of them no really can we then turn to some specific fire safety related complaints and concerns that you raised on behalf of residents
01:42:25 residents um let's begin with tm0084807 and this is the minute of an emb meeting
01:42:36 and this is the minute of an emb meeting on the 15th of may 2012. and uh we can see from that document the first page of it that uh the chair
01:42:47 the first page of it that uh the chair is robert bryan's uh the secretary is doug steward uh number six present is edward daphon and we can see that you are
01:43:00 and we can see that you are in attendance uh there thank you as a co-opted
01:43:04 co-opted board member as member 13. you see that uh if we go well first when when were you first co-opted to the enb uh itself do you remember or was that on
01:43:16 uh itself do you remember or was that on a meeting i think it was about 2010
01:43:23 2010 i think so when i was um elected right to the nottingdale and my my predecessor had stood down i think in 2010.
01:43:34 in 2010. right but you were you were co-opted to the board the emb board yeah uh in 2010 i'm pretty certain right okay let's go to page four in this document
01:43:45 to page four in this document agenda item number eight please
01:43:49 grenfell tower proposal and it's a long piece of text i'm not going to read it all to you if we look down through it to the fifth paragraph down which starts
01:44:04 uh uh in in the minute if you it says rb ask the board if we should have a grenfell
01:44:13 grenfell committee uh and you'll see that trump is it uh
01:44:24 uh it is
01:44:29 on page five and we are on page four which is the source of the confusion um uh if you go to page five fifth paragraph down on that page um arby asked the board if we should
01:44:40 um arby asked the board if we should have a grenfell committee diaz said it's a good idea and other members agreed rb confirmed emb will discuss and put names forward to be on the committee and this committee
01:44:52 on the committee and this committee will just concentrate on the tower and rb is robert bryan's the emb chair yes yes yes and we saw that edward daphon was there do you remember whether he agreed
01:45:04 do you remember whether he agreed with this proposal i can't remember do you remember any opposed uh opposition by mr daffan to this proposal i can't remember it's too long ago is mr davan's
01:45:15 it's too long ago is mr davan's opposition something that you would remember not necessarily um
01:45:20 um now we're not aware of a grenfell committee
01:45:23 committee so to speak uh having been established at this time either within or outside the emb
01:45:29 the emb that's correct do you know why that was no what do you know what happened to this proposal i can't remember right can we then go to your second police statement please met 3045751
01:45:46 and on page 10
01:45:51 you uh refer the under the heading grenfell tower compact to that compact and it asking to be recognized as a residents association
01:46:03 recognized as a residents association and you say uh in the third line from the end of the second paragraph there the paragraph starts an example of this is when the residents
01:46:14 example of this is when the residents try to form their own residents association in the last uh in the in the last three lines you say i reiterated the request for them to be able to form their own association but the tmo again
01:46:25 their own association but the tmo again refused
01:46:26 refused as a result the residents then went to their member of parliament victoria boric
01:46:30 boric for help who arranged a meeting between them and the tmo do you know why the tmo was resisting recognizing the grenfell compact at this time well they always
01:46:41 they always said it was because they should have joined the residents association
01:46:46 and what did you think of that well again i i didn't think that the residents association was appropriate because
01:46:54 because the residents association tended to concentrate purely on arranging social events
01:47:00 events right
01:47:04 you you say that they said because they should have joined the residents association what was your understanding about the real reason
01:47:15 real reason why the tmo refused recognition of an association a compact real reason because they said they should have joined the residents association
01:47:26 association how would that have helped well they they in it's again it's this question of theory versus practice in theory residents associations raise issues on
01:47:37 residents associations raise issues on behalf of their residents in practice this particular residents association was pretty morrigan and they tended to focus on raising arranging social events so
01:47:50 arranging social events so if that was the practice what what was the reason uh what was the justification let me let me put it that way for the tma refusing recognition i didn't know you'd
01:48:01 refusing recognition i didn't know you'd have to ask them well i'm asking you for your perception my perception was because they felt that they should have joined the residents association why did victoria borack's intervention help um well presumably because she was a
01:48:12 um well presumably because she was a member of parliament and she was a conservative she was also a councillor at the time and i actually knew her quite well and i broke at that the first meeting and you did yeah that's certainly correct
01:48:24 you say presumably because she was a member she was a conservative well and a member of parliament yes why did that have anything to do with it
01:48:36 well i think she had more influence to bring to bear on the tmo than i had right was it your understanding at the time that unless victoria borick had lent her assistance the tmo would not
01:48:48 lent her assistance the tmo would not have moved on the point i suspect they wouldn't have moved yet
01:48:53 now in your statement uh you uh refer to this as an example of of where mr tufan
01:49:01 tufan mr daphon i'm sorry had unrealistic expectations of ward councillors uh i don't need to show you the reference of that um well in fact it's in the first paragraph on this page you say that
01:49:14 paragraph on this page you say that she had an unrealistic expectation as to what opposition counsellors could actually achieve on their behalf why was it unrealistic for mr daphon to come to you for help seeking recognition for a residence association it wasn't
01:49:25 for a residence association it wasn't unrealistic for him to come to us it was impossibly unrealistic for him to expect that we could um
01:49:33 could um get what he wanted done given that as you've explained the lancaster west residents association was inactive
01:49:41 inactive or active only to the extent of of organizing social events and given that the the grenfell tower refurbishment project was not estate-wide um surely it was an entirely realistic
01:49:54 um surely it was an entirely realistic expectation uh or at least a realistic and justified request uh for the residents of grenfell tower to be able to form a compact yes and therefore if it was if it was
01:50:07 yes and therefore if it was if it was a justified request why was it why was it unrealistic to expect that that might because they didn't ask to form a compact they asked to form their own separate residents association
01:50:18 separate residents association what difference would that make the difference is that there was a residence association for the whole estate and i don't think that the tmo fancied breaking down estates into
01:50:29 fancied breaking down estates into different residence associations
01:50:34 well why not given that well i don't know because sometime previously there'd been an attempt by the residents on one side of the estate to break away from the residents association on the other side of the estate and that was turned down
01:50:45 estate and that was turned down right i mean given the the refurbishment affected
01:50:49 affected the tower but not the entirety of the of the estate why wasn't it a realistic expectation uh to to to that the tma would would entertain the existence of a group devoted to protecting the
01:51:01 of a group devoted to protecting the residents interests well i thought it was a realistic expectation but it was turned down right now let's go to uh page five in this document
01:51:16 if you look at the third paragraph from the bottom of the page the long paragraph
01:51:26 you say in that paragraph i was not involved in the day-to-day management of the project nor with any of the changes that were made during the life of the project
01:51:38 made during the life of the project for example i was not aware of changes to the materials specified for the refurbishment of the tower i have no expertise in such matters since the fire i have reviewed the documents in my possession i was aware that the residents were
01:51:49 i was aware that the residents were invited to choose what cladding they would like to see added to the building they were told that the purpose of the cladding was to improve the look of the building as well as to provide better insulation for the flats
01:52:00 for the flats the residents were shown different samples of cladding and approved zinc cladding although i do not believe that any of the residents were experts and i assumed their decision was based mainly on aesthetics the zinc cladding was
01:52:12 on aesthetics the zinc cladding was subsequently changed to aluminium cladding but this was not specifically brought to the attention of the tmo board or the tmo operations committee at the time i do not know if planning permission was required for the change
01:52:26 permission was required for the change now you suggest here that you became aware that residents were invited to choose
01:52:31 choose your word choose yes i was told that they could have a choice yes but the choice seemed to be related um
01:52:38 um more to color but what they chose was zinc uh
01:52:44 zinc uh and you say that because of consultation in 2012.
01:52:48 in 2012. no i was told that by the architect andre kushel when were you told that oh god in in passing at some meeting or rather after some meeting rather very early on right what was the basis of your understanding
01:53:00 your understanding uh well sorry let me start start a little bit earlier down the track you say that
01:53:04 say that after the fire you reviewed documents and were aware that the residents were invited to choose what cladding they would like to see added to the building is that right that in fact it was after
01:53:15 is that right that in fact it was after a review of documents that you thought the residents were given the choice
01:53:21 um i think the actual cladding yes not the color the color i knew about the choice that they were given for the color
01:53:30 color what was the basis of your understanding that they were given the choice about the about the cladding i think it said so in one of the newsletters but i can't actually recollect now did you see any document which led you
01:53:44 did you see any document which led you to think that the residents were given a choice
01:53:46 choice about the switch from zinc to aluminium no they weren't no were you aware of any effort by the tmo to tell or inform the residents or ask the residents about
01:53:59 the residents or ask the residents about the change from zinc to aluminium no they were not told or the reasons for that change no they weren't told there was no consultation on that issue whatsoever
01:54:10 whatsoever did you realize that at the time no you didn't it was after i looked at the documents and i saw in one of the newsletters a very very tiny
01:54:20 tiny little bit that said that it was aluminium cladding not zinc uh but that was by way of information not by way of yes yeah that was by just telling them yeah
01:54:31 yeah that was by just telling them yeah can i show you uh a document seven tm008799 seven seven one please at page seventeen
01:54:44 this is an extract of uh peter madison's notebook
01:54:50 notebook and on this page on the right hand side
01:54:56 you have an extract or an entry rather for february 2013. 4th of february 2013 at the top right
01:55:07 4th of february 2013 at the top right hand corner and halfway down the page in the middle he has written that you had a view it looks on the design or color of the cladding and had been talking to the
01:55:18 cladding and had been talking to the planners
01:55:20 planners no is that right no did you as a matter of fact have a view on the cladding either about design or color um i was told i think again by mr kushel
01:55:33 um i was told i think again by mr kushel that i could have a look at the choice of cladding and make a decision and i decided it was nothing to do with me it was to do with residents so i didn't right do you recall
01:55:45 recall speaking to mr madison on this subject at that time early february 2013. if i did i would have said to him that i'd propose not to make a choice myself
01:55:56 propose not to make a choice myself because it was up to the residents right
01:56:01 right do you remember speaking to anybody at lead bitters on the subject of the design or color of the cladding no because ledbetters weren't doing the tower uh well in february 2013 that was still a moot
01:56:14 in february 2013 that was still a moot point
01:56:15 point well i was told by mr anderson after a board meeting very early on that ledbetters had quoted 11 million for the project which meant
01:56:26 project which meant they probably didn't want to do it but so i wouldn't have talked to ledbetters about the cladding all right um had you spoken directly to the planners on the subject of cladding
01:56:37 the planners on the subject of cladding whether design or color no did you have any input at all into the
01:56:43 the into the into the planning uh decisions only the main planning decision which was approved by the planning committee
01:56:54 planning committee when i opposed it on behalf of the ward councillors on the grounds of over development of the site
01:57:03 but that was when the initial planning permission was agreed i see so you oppose the development of grenfell tower altogether eventually we opposed it on grounds for over
01:57:14 grounds for over development because they they decided to build flats as well and we felt that that constituted over development right and coming back to february 2013 and this note do you recall any discussion
01:57:25 this note do you recall any discussion about or having a view about the material of which the cladding was to be made no so no discussion about zinc or acm no absolutely not right can i then turn
01:57:36 no absolutely not right can i then turn to a different topic which is consultation with the residents about the ride and tender
01:57:42 tender can we look please uh at back at your police statement again uh met three zeros four five seven five one uh and look at page five
01:57:56 in that paragraph it's where there's a heading grenfell tower refurbishment uh it it says in the second paragraph there my ward colleagues and i do you see that my ward colleagues and i
01:58:07 do you see that my ward colleagues and i attended several of the consultation meetings held with residents of the tower
01:58:10 tower before the refurbishment began i was also a member of the subcommittee which recommended the bid from ryden further to the advice of the consultants commissioned by the tmo during the tender process mrs edwards
01:58:21 during the tender process mrs edwards and i as the resident representatives interviewed the resident engagement officer
01:58:25 officer of each of the shortlisted contenders correct now in that context i want to ask you about that can we look please at tm01005311
01:58:39 at page three
01:58:44 and this is an email
01:58:50 uh from uh you to peter madison at the foot of page three 21st of february 2013 414 2014 in the context of discussions with the tmm about the then current
01:59:01 tmm about the then current tender for the project uh to ask if there would be one or more residents on the interviewing panel can you if i had been told earlier when i agreed to go on the panel that
01:59:12 when i agreed to go on the panel that there would be two resident representatives on the panel now when were you told that when i agreed to go on the panel i see and when was that do you
01:59:23 panel i see and when was that do you remember
01:59:24 remember he was at or after a board meeting right so uh if you look at the response which is on page three higher up page
01:59:35 which is on page three higher up page three
01:59:36 three in fact it starts at the foot of page two it's the same day put a page two over to page three peter madison comes back to you uh copied to claire williams dear
01:59:48 uh copied to claire williams dear councillor blakeman off of page three thank you for sending this across and then in the last paragraph he says yes we hope there will be a tenant and a leaseholder involved in the interviews if you can please hold the full day for the time
02:00:00 please hold the full day for the time being we will firm up the times in due course
02:00:03 course were you aware of any discussion about including residents in the interviewing panel
02:00:07 panel before your email that day i had been told that there would be two resident representatives on the panel when i agreed to go on the panel i didn't know it was conditional
02:00:19 panel i didn't know it was conditional at that stage i was told for definite that there would be i was only later told that there might be right had there been any attempt to include residents in the decision making
02:00:30 include residents in the decision making about the refurbishment before february 2014 to the best of your recollection well only through the consultation meetings and the drop-ins and
02:00:42 and when i say decision making decision making in
02:00:45 making in in the tender process no no did you explore what arrangements the tmo had put in place for ensuring that residents of grenfell tower had pro had been
02:00:55 been or could be properly represented in scrutinizing the tender only that i was told that two resident representatives would be at the pal yes at the panel on the panel my
02:01:06 yes at the panel on the panel my question is did you go into what arrangements the tmo had made to make sure that those residents who were going to be on the panel were fully briefed no or given all assistance that they needed
02:01:17 or given all assistance that they needed in order for them properly to exercise their powers as representatives of the people living in the building no we weren't we weren't neither mrs edwards nor right
02:01:27 nor right the best well this is there was the best of my recollection me certainly to my recollection was given no um information about the panel other than that we would be invited to um
02:01:38 than that we would be invited to um interview the people who'd sent bids in
02:01:44 yes do you know where the tender had got to at this point i don't think so right did you ask no um can we turn them to
02:01:55 no um can we turn them to the question of concerns raised by residents during the refurbishment particularly in relation to fire safety uh met3041526 please
02:02:09 and if you look at the foot of page one of this email run and wait for it to come up this is an email uh from
02:02:20 this is an email uh from uh emma dent code to you on the 3rd of january 2015
02:02:29 saying for the record i'm not responding to this unless you ask me to and this below is an email from gtla
02:02:40 is an email from gtla to her as the first recipient and to you as the second recipient and then copied to a list long list of people and if we go to page three
02:02:54 people and if we go to page three i'm sorry page two uh in the email run it starts with the subject improvement work on existing smoke extraction and ventilation
02:03:05 extraction and ventilation system which links to the fire alarm under the grenfell regeneration project dear councillor dent code season's greetings from grenfell tower leaseholders association we request the recipients of this email
02:03:17 we request the recipients of this email for their attention as this is a very serious matter for us all as residents of the lancaster west estate and the grenfell tower i'm writing to you in relation to the email i sent to councillor rockfielding mellon
02:03:28 councillor rockfielding mellon the cabinet member of housing and the deputy leader of the rbkc and it goes on like that uh about that and and the the subject is the works to the smoke extract system
02:03:42 is the works to the smoke extract system um and it deteriorating and in need of an upgrade to ensure compliance with health and safety uh that that's i'm summarizing the topic and then if
02:03:54 i'm summarizing the topic and then if you go a little bit lower down uh you can see underneath the second bold
02:04:01 bold sentence it says ryden has been on site since june 2014 and so far there is no tangible evidence whatsoever ryden and casey tmo intend to carry out replacement of the smoke vent and extraction and ventilation system
02:04:12 extraction and ventilation system which links to the fire alarm we need confirmation that ryden will carry out the work as part of the regeneration product as promised by kctmo now we can see from what i've shown you so far
02:04:23 so far particularly the large number of recipients um the email asked all recipients to pay attention to the email did you yes yes now the concern being
02:04:34 did you yes yes now the concern being expressed here by mr awaderu as i say is that although the fra the fire risk assessment from 2012 november 2012 had identified the aov
02:04:45 aov system the smoke extract system in grenfell tower as in need of an upgrade there was as yet no sign that ryden had had done it and we'll come back to to that in in substance in a moment
02:04:57 to that in in substance in a moment did you understand that the gtla was at this point making a formal complaint
02:05:05 well um a formal complaint i i would understand this as a formal complaint whether the tmo would understand it as a formal complaint it's a completely different issue well maybe but i'm asking for your
02:05:16 maybe but i'm asking for your understanding well yes yes you thought it was a formal complaint who did you think it was a formal complaint to the tmo or rbkc it should have been to the tmo right
02:05:26 and given the long list of recipients which you can see at the bottom of page one and the top of page two um who did you think that complaint was addressed to as a complaint well that was the difficulty i mean i
02:05:38 well that was the difficulty i mean i did speak to the leaseholders association and say that if they sent
02:05:43 they sent issues to everybody it meant that nobody would reply indeed let's go up to the if we scroll up a little bit you can see that at the top of the email chain you respond to emident code counselor
02:05:55 you respond to emident code counselor dent code uh the same day third of january
02:05:57 january 2015 and you say oh dear no don't bother i do not understand why they have to email absolutely everyone uh do you know why ms dent code felt
02:06:08 uh do you know why ms dent code felt that she wasn't required to respond because it wasn't in her ward i see what was her role in dealing with concerns about grenfell tower
02:06:17 tower well they were negligible because the grenfell tower was not in her ward right why did you tell councillor dencode not to bother responding because it was not in her ward right and
02:06:28 because it was not in her ward right and now your reply suggests that you didn't agree with them emailing a large number of recipients um i think you've just explained this in your evidence just now but could you humour me and just explain it again
02:06:39 again because if you send emails to everybody then everybody thinks every somebody else is going to reply did you think to respond to mr avadaru
02:06:50 did you think to respond to mr avadaru and advise him of that i have told him that on several occasions both face to face to mr ahmed face to face to mr ahmed and also i certainly in one email i mentioned it
02:07:03 certainly in one email i mentioned it why do you why did you think at the time that nonetheless the gtla persisted in mass copying well it's probably just as well as they did with the benefit of hindsight
02:07:14 did with the benefit of hindsight because because everybody was then made aware of the situation at grenfell tower but at the time at the time i thought it was excessive
02:07:25 uh did you well then you say you you did advise him how better to get his message across
02:07:30 across yeah did you tell him well did you give him advice along the lines of look if if you really want to take get get this going and take it forward you really need to send this to a focused group
02:07:39 group of people who actually will entertain the complaint formally yes you did did you how did you do that that was mr ahmed not mr abudari mr ahmed mr araderi put his name to it because
02:07:50 because he was a non-resident leasehold and therefore i think mr ahmed felt that he would not if if he signed everything he that then they would go for him
02:08:02 he that then they would go for him yes all right um can we go to met 304
02:08:13 yes four two two zero one please
02:08:18 which is where you do see the advice you gave him
02:08:22 gave him uh and you say dear ton day i've asked the tmo for a response i seriously suggest you not copy everyone into these emails in any case the list you're using is pre the 2014 council elections and is now very out of date
02:08:34 now very out of date kind of regarding happy new year did did mr howard respond to you well i i always wrote dear tunde because he signed the letters but actually the the emails came from mr ahmed right now
02:08:45 the emails came from mr ahmed right now i knew that mr ahmed knew that mr ahmed knew that i knew did the recipient of this email respond to you i don't think so did the recipient of this email stop copying everyone into the his email
02:08:58 when you asked the tmo for a response uh what did you do who did you ask i can't remember probably peter madison right
02:09:06 right how did you expect your inquiry to be or complaint i suppose to be treated i may have just forwarded to the tmo and asked for a reply right did you expect the tma to treat it
02:09:17 right did you expect the tma to treat it as a formal complaint or as an inquiry a member's inquiry uh as it was about services it should have been
02:09:24 have been treated as a complaint under that procedure
02:09:30 yes a and that's because that they were dissatisfied with the service provided by the tmo namely the delay in replacing the aov
02:09:44 yes
02:09:54 can we go to met30s
02:09:58 two zero one please
02:10:11 uh and if we go to page two
02:10:19 this is a different it's a different reference but the same email but lower down and it's easier to see this one
02:10:27 this one which is why we've gone to this version of it and if you look at the second paragraph on page two
02:10:37 it says please find attached a scanned copy of from kctma dated 30th of june 2011 in relation to the fire alarm and smoke
02:10:46 smoke extract system for ease of reference it states that the reason for the works in that the original fire alarm and smoke extract system is still in place at a deteriorating and in need of upgrade to ensure compliance with
02:10:57 upgrade to ensure compliance with current health and safety legislation and continued operation the work have been included in our capital programme in a letter to me from the kctma dated 30th of january 2013 on page two it
02:11:08 30th of january 2013 on page two it states
02:11:09 states we can confirm that improvements will be made to the existing smoke extraction and ventilation system which links to the fire alarm under the grenfell regeneration project end of quote and then it goes on ryden
02:11:20 end of quote and then it goes on ryden has been on site since june 2014 and i wrote that to you already
02:11:24 already um it looks as if is this right the the gist of the complaint is that gtla had been told in 2011 or rather the tmo had been told in 2011 of the need for work
02:11:36 of the need for work to the fire alarm and smoke extract system and again in 2013 but as of january 15 no work had been started on the smoke and extract system hence the complaint that's that was the
02:11:48 hence the complaint that's that was the gist of it so it was historical going back four years were you concerned to note that there had been a delay of four years to to works to the fire alarm and smoke extract system at
02:11:59 alarm and smoke extract system at grenfell
02:12:00 grenfell i was concerned about all the emails that the leaseholders association sent me and i sent most of them if not all of them on
02:12:08 them on to the tmo for responses yes i i understand that as a generic answer but were you specifically alarmed to discover that the smoke extract system had not was not only not working or and
02:12:20 had not was not only not working or and in need of an upgrade but had been so for four years yeah i think i'd done a separate email to the tmo
02:12:27 tmo um about the smoke extract system were you aware whether the fire alarm smoke extract system was actually functioning at the time i think i was told that it was i can't
02:12:39 i think i was told that it was i can't remember right did you know about did you know whether the tmo had implemented any mitigation measures at grenfell tower pending completion of the works to the fire alarm and smoke extraction system
02:12:50 fire alarm and smoke extraction system i certainly asked for some mitigation works right what was the response i can't remember can we go to tm01 triple zero eight four two two page one please so scroll up to the top of his
02:13:01 please so scroll up to the top of his email chain
02:13:04 we can see his response to your request for a tmo report on this matter and it's dated
02:13:16 and it's dated uh it's dated 5th of january 2015 and after setting out the scope of the work for the refurbishment halfway down the page he says this you see you probably can't see it on the
02:13:27 you see you probably can't see it on the screen if you can just scroll up please thank you halfway down your screen it says the scope of work to grenfell includes the upgrade stroke renewal
02:13:35 renewal of smoke and fire safety and ventilation system
02:13:38 system the current the system is currently beyond economic repair we're working with building control to agree a design for the system that will meet current standards we've been in close contact with the fire brigade to make them aware of the
02:13:49 fire brigade to make them aware of the current situation so they can take this into account in their approach to any fire safety issues our contractors ryden have also been in liaison with the fire brigade to agree safe working methods in the interim while the system is being
02:14:01 the interim while the system is being worked on
02:14:02 worked on we've posted notices throughout the building and explained in newsletters that a staple policy is in place in the event of a fire did you understand this message back to you to
02:14:14 understand this message back to you to mean
02:14:15 mean or indicate that the smoke extract system the aov system was still working uh no my understanding was that something had been put in place in the
02:14:26 something had been put in place in the interim
02:14:29 this is an example of what i referred to i think on thursday as bland responses intended just to reassure me and shut me up
02:14:40 up i see so although it says the system is currently beyond economic repair nonetheless did you well what did you take from the last paragraph which starts our contractors ryden have
02:14:51 which starts our contractors ryden have also been in liaison with the fire brigade well i understood that to mean that
02:14:55 that there were safe safe safety measures had been implemented in the meantime right
02:15:06 were you aware this time and this is january 15 that the lfb had issued a deficiency notice to the tmo in respect of the
02:15:19 to the tmo in respect of the non-functioning aov system at grenfell tower in march 2014. now with the cure date of may no 5th of may 2014 no
02:15:32 no 5th of may 2014 no would you have expected peter madison to have told you of that fact in his report to you here well yes if that were the case yes
02:15:43 well yes if that were the case yes did you expect peace to madison to tell you why there was a delay in carrying out the repairs to the aov that have been pointed out to you in mr howard or mr ahmed's message
02:15:56 um i thought this does reassure doesn't explain why it could have gone
02:16:02 have gone a dress for four years no no my question was did you expect at the time mr madison to have explained why that was um yeah but you didn't ask him to
02:16:15 um yeah but you didn't ask him to no why was that lack of resources lack of time as i explained this was the point when the whole of silchester estate was being proposed to be demolished
02:16:26 and i had to deal with that too how did you take it how did you leave this response did you were you um were you happy with it i wasn't happy with it but i accepted it
02:16:38 with it but i accepted it i realized i wasn't going to get anything else out of them right
02:16:44 can we then turn to uh the grenfell compact
02:16:48 compact and the and the matrices that we looked at or you referred to before um in your second police statement which we've now looked at a number of times can we get back to that please uh met 304 met3045751
02:17:02 uh met 304 met3045751 you say on page eight in the second paragraph there following the refurbishment i worked with two residents mr daffan and mr thompson
02:17:10 thompson and together we drew up a matrix of outstanding problems this was sent to the tmo and i requested regular updates the matrix was a table highlighting some of the outstanding problems with a further column for the tmo
02:17:22 further column for the tmo and or ryden to set out what actions they were taking to address the issues fire safety was an issue included in this matrix and the fact that the stairwell hadn't been included in the refurbishment
02:17:33 refurbishment i produces my exhibit jb-5 copies of the matrix from august 2015 and may 2016. now before we look at the
02:17:46 now before we look at the matrices uh ms blamen can you explain how you mr daphon and mr thompson went about preparing them well they tell me what the problems were and i put them into a matrix
02:17:57 and i put them into a matrix right did you have a meeting with them yes right you sat down with them and and sketched it out um did any other residents
02:18:06 residents other than mr daphon or mr thompson contribute to those matrices um mr collins moved and i'm not sure yes in fact he he says he did okay
02:18:20 was it your understanding that these concerns were fairly representative oh yes of the concerns shared by a large number of
02:18:27 number of the representative the residents of the tower yes otherwise i wouldn't have put them in the matrix right and what what was it that gave rise to that understanding the number of complaints i'd had from residents what separately yes
02:18:39 residents what separately yes i see so was it your um perception that mr daphne mr thompson and mr collins
02:18:46 collins to the extent that he contributed were reflecting what you'd already heard in the building or around the building yes yes now let's look at the first of these matrices
02:18:55 matrices this is august 2015. uh met 30 is 45762 please
02:19:10 uh and you can see just to remind you how it's laid out there's a number column and in the left on the left hand side then resident issue in the middle and then tmo straight ride and response on the right
02:19:23 and response on the right uh now from email correspondence uh we believe that you sent it to peter madison on the 28th of august 2015 and the email is at met met3070923
02:19:36 and the email is at met met3070923 there's a quickly look at that just just to
02:19:41 pin that down in timing terms bottom of page one you to madison 28 august and uh you attach the matrix you you refer to it and you attach it
02:19:55 you you refer to it and you attach it now let's look at let's look back at the matrix then if we can which is the last document there it is and you can see that if you go to um
02:20:06 and you can see that if you go to um page three a list of some 28 concerns or issues related to the refurbishment yes um were you surprised that there
02:20:19 yes um were you surprised that there were
02:20:19 were that there were so many when it when it came to drafting it and numbering them no i wasn't surprised because i had so many different complaints from residents right if we go to number 22
02:20:30 right if we go to number 22 on page two the last but one
02:20:42 uh we can see that there is uh an item there about alternative hot water facilities for washing that's item 21.
02:20:56 uh there's also an investigation
02:21:02 into the if you go to item 23
02:21:07 uh the floor numbering change floor numbers back to reflect current flat numbers and find an alternative numbering system for the two floors uh did you see that as a fire safety
02:21:18 uh did you see that as a fire safety issue
02:21:20 issue yes you did and it was an emergency issue and not just fire safety but any emergency right it's difficult apart from that issue it's difficult to
02:21:31 apart from that issue it's difficult to see
02:21:33 see whether any of these issues were specifically fire safety issues uh is that right you know if well which which of these do would you have said at the time were
02:21:45 would you have said at the time were intended to be fire safety matters take take a moment to look through can i see the whole yes of course go to page one
02:21:55 page one well number one is a fire safety issue right this cast your eye down page one number six i think there was mr collins
02:22:07 number six i think there was mr collins certainly had a concern about his in the hallway which related to fire safety how did that relate to fire safety
02:22:13 safety because he was concerned that the boiler was put on top of the electrical right incoming issue
02:22:24 so the hrus
02:22:28 and possibly the floor numbering which we've looked at any others do you under boxing of the open pipe work yes we scroll down a bit further onto page two perhaps we can see just casting your eye down
02:22:40 we can see just casting your eye down the middle column we've got more hius under item 14. yeah 14 refers to the hiu one yes
02:22:51 yeah 14 refers to the hiu one yes uh and then
02:22:55 alternative hot water which we've already looked at which is also related to the hr used in one sense and then floor numbers are 23 and on page three uh any of those related to fire issues
02:23:10 well effective communication would would relate to it right looking at response to number 23 at the bottom of page two just go back to that
02:23:21 to that change floor numbers back to reflect current flat numbers and find alternative numbering system for the two floors the response was royal mail requires the lower floors to be numbered so that the address is easily identifiable for the emergency
02:23:32 easily identifiable for the emergency services in the case of any incident floors have been renumbered and temporary signage fitted until the final version is available so the floor levels have been altered and it is not possible to revert to the old numbering
02:23:44 old numbering were the new floor numbers easily identifiable for the emergency services in the event of an emergency no why was that
02:23:52 that um because they didn't relate to the the flat numbers didn't relate to the flaws you see flat 1-3 whatever
02:24:05 flaws you see flat 1-3 whatever would be on the 13th floor but after the refurbishment it was put on the 16th floor
02:24:10 floor and so on did was that problem not resolved by the temporary signage that the tma put up no because they just put up paper notices which disappeared or fell
02:24:21 notices which disappeared or fell or fell off or whatever right so there was also an issue that in the stairwell because the stairwell wasn't um included in the refurbishment project
02:24:33 um included in the refurbishment project the door numbers on the stairwell didn't um relate to the flat numbers any longer either right and what was the problem the actual renumbering of the flaws
02:24:44 actual renumbering of the flaws or or was the problem the signage and the renumbering of the flaws right but the signage didn't help because it didn't i mean it was not it was not permanent until quite
02:24:57 was not it was not permanent until quite late on
02:24:59 late on can we then go to tm010010093 please and let's look at page two in this email run
02:25:09 run this takes us to the start to early october 2015 and what i'm showing you is an email exchange you had with peter madison on the 2nd of october 2015. very bottom of page 2 you write to madison
02:25:23 bottom of page 2 you write to madison 2nd october 15 copy to claire williams and other councillors sorry received also by claire williams copy to other councillors dear mr madison and then over to page 3 i'm writing to let you have the issues
02:25:35 i'm writing to let you have the issues raised with members of the grenfell tower compact at last saturday surgery with my colleague councillor atkinson and advancing your meeting next week they are as follows and then you set out a long list of
02:25:47 set out a long list of items um just before we look at those you i think weren't present at the saturday surgery were you no why did you write to peter madison and not counselor atkinson
02:25:59 not counselor atkinson because peter madison was the person to deal with the complaints i see so this was this was part of the complaints process yeah i follow if we go to page three we can see that you
02:26:10 see that you uh as we can see list a large number of items
02:26:13 items of concern uh from residents and at point six you say this they continue to have an issue with the numbering of the flaws as do the ward councillors whatever the pro whatever the post
02:26:24 whatever the pro whatever the post office requires the new system exactly to say sorry we can't see six at the moment you can't i'm so sorry that was
02:26:31 was there we are ahead of myself paragraph six i started again they continue to have an issue with the numbering of the flaws as do the ward councillors whatever the post office requires the new system of numbering is not effective
02:26:43 new system of numbering is not effective and could prove dangerous in the event of an emergency the notice is about the floor number changes are not prominent or secure and in any case would not be helpful to children
02:26:52 children anyone who not does not read english or indeed anyone with literacy problems the solution the residents propose is that the lower floor should have a new name
02:27:00 name such as lower grenfell we believe that this issue does require some further consideration
02:27:09 now although you weren't present at the meeting
02:27:12 meeting what did you think the residents meant when they said that the new system of numbering
02:27:16 numbering could prove dangerous in the event of an emergency because it could mean whoever was dealing with from the statutory services whoever was dealing with the emergency might grow to the wrong
02:27:26 the wrong floor and might be delayed as a result do you know if any residents reported any concerns about the floor numbering themselves directly to the tmo well they
02:27:37 themselves directly to the tmo well they may have done but residents used to um particularly those who whose first language was not english like to ring up with their complaints and then when their complaints weren't
02:27:49 and then when their complaints weren't addressed they would come to me and say well i rang and nobody and i would say well you need to put the complaint in writing and they didn't like to because i entirely understand because they don't
02:28:00 entirely understand because they don't like
02:28:01 like writing in a strange language so i said well come to me then i will put the complaint into writing for you i follow i follow so
02:28:12 i follow i follow so is is this an example then of the kind of complaint that some residents of the tower could could in effect really only make through you
02:28:22 you yes i mean there was no um mechanism for collective complaints only for individual complaints indeed and for some individuals as you just said
02:28:32 said you were the only conduit well i wasn't the only conduit the compact was as well and other residents yes but certainly those who came to me and complained that their complaints had not
02:28:44 complained that their complaints had not been dealt with i would say well did you put it in writing otherwise they can these things can be lost
02:28:51 lost i follow and then looking at paragraph seven
02:28:54 seven uh you say they would like another independent inspection of the arrangements in the event of a fire perhaps this might be better carried out at the end of the project although i think they have concerns about what would happen during the works in the event of a fire
02:29:05 event of a fire especially because of the floor numbering problem this request should also receive further consideration when you say another independent inspection of the arrangements
02:29:16 inspection of the arrangements were residents aware of a previous inspection well i had asked on behalf of the leaseholders association some years before this for an independent for a
02:29:28 before this for an independent for a fire in
02:29:29 fire in investigation and i was told that the lfb had
02:29:33 lfb had carried one out now whether that was communicated to all the residents or not i can't recollect right was that the lfb visit in 2013 could have been
02:29:46 whatever it was was in in response to a request i submitted on behalf of the leaseholders right was it the leaseholders uh who were using were saying another independent investigation was that was
02:29:57 independent investigation was that was that your word no that was my word i see do you know what specific concerns caused residents to ask for an independent investigation of the arrangements in the event of a fire i think that was post lacanal
02:30:11 fire i think that was post lacanal and the recommendations from the coroner included a statement that after a major refurbishment there should be a full independent assessment
02:30:22 be a full independent assessment of fire safety matters
02:30:31 and what was it in 2015 that had prompted the residents to ask for another independent investigation no i asked for another they asked for an independent investigation sorry you're quite right
02:30:42 investigation sorry you're quite right and
02:30:43 and you corrected me what was it that prompted them to ask for an independent inspection of the arrangements in 2015. because of their concerns about the numbering yeah numbering but yeah the whole thing did
02:30:54 numbering but yeah the whole thing did you why did you think it was better to carry out an inspection at the end of the project right well that was because of the coroner's report but i i also felt that perhaps one during the works would have been
02:31:05 works would have been advisable but i think i i think i put that
02:31:09 that i think i did separate emails about those and i was told that the lfb came regularly to grenfell tower
02:31:21 now if we go up to page one in this email run you can see peter madison responds to you the same day and he unfortunately his response although it's in red in the original appears black in
02:31:34 in red in the original appears black in the electronic copy we've got here and doesn't come up but if we go to the top of page two we can see item 6 and the very last
02:31:46 we can see item 6 and the very last sentence
02:31:47 sentence which says we will review this again and come back to you it's in red in the original you can't see it it's in black and in item seven the last word there is agreed it's in black but
02:31:59 agreed it's in black but was in red in the original those are his responses
02:32:03 responses um he as i say appears to have responded promptly and positively to your concerns under items six and seven was that how you saw it at the time well
02:32:15 was that how you saw it at the time well i think he did come back to me with regards to the um floor numbering and said no and said it was a responsibility um that the royal mail had insisted
02:32:27 had insisted as he had said previously well if he doesn't does he he says at the end of six yeah no no on a separate email exchange yes um
02:32:40 exchange yes um but on this one on that one he says yes we'll review it again and come back to you
02:32:45 you no you did come back right yeah that was in a separate email it is we'll come to that but at this st at this stage ms blakeman were you mollified are you happy with his answer
02:32:56 mollified are you happy with his answer well
02:32:57 well i would await his um formal response he didn't brush you off straight away next no
02:33:06 did you ask at this stage for a copy of the existing fire risk assessment for grenfell tower no
02:33:14 um if we look on we then get to mtmo
02:33:23 which takes us on a little bit later in the same month this is now the 18th of october 2015.
02:33:36 [Applause]
02:33:41 and
02:33:46 we can see here that you are the second email down writing to robert black on the 18th of october dear mr black you say i'm writing to let you know that the nottingdale ward councillors are
02:33:57 the nottingdale ward councillors are coming under great pressure to ask for a full report on the refurbishment process at grenfell tower to be written up for an in-depth discussion by the council's housing and property scrutiny committee we're very sorry about this because we'd
02:34:08 we're very sorry about this because we'd hope that after recent meetings attended by the ward council as things had calmed down and we were now making progress but we certainly agree with some of the outstanding matters that continue to be raised
02:34:15 raised with us these include the following and then it goes on and why did you email robert black directly
02:34:24 directly because he was the chief executive and i wasn't getting anywhere with peter madison
02:34:27 madison right i see and who was putting pressure on you for a full report the residents were many residents at grenfell putting pressure on you to obtain a full rule yeah this is
02:34:38 to obtain a full rule yeah this is following the meeting that we attended which was held in the show flat there were a lot of residents there
02:34:47 was that was that in october or was that before
02:34:50 before i can't remember i think it was before yes
02:34:54 yes why were residents asking for the report to be discussed at scrutiny the rbkc's scrutiny committee
02:35:01 committee uh presumably because they felt that the hp
02:35:05 hp sc had more influence over the tmo than i did
02:35:08 i did i follow was there any discussion at this time about raising these issues with the tmo board no did you suggest that the issues that had
02:35:19 did you suggest that the issues that had been raised with you by the residents such as in the comp the matrix we've seen with the compact and such as
02:35:26 such as we've seen with the email that that's come to you uh and that you've reflected in the in the numbered list we we saw you send discussed at the board i think they'd been discussed at the board
02:35:37 think they'd been discussed at the board and i've got nowhere right
02:35:42 can we go back to your email then please tmo120025473
02:35:51 i just think it's still on the screen and lower down from where we were if you look at the third paragraph you raise a number of concerns uh and in summary
02:36:03 uh and in summary they are in in an investigation into ryden contractors bullying residents that's
02:36:09 that's the paragraph that starts mr lawrence of ryden gave a firm undertaking
02:36:15 and then if you
02:36:19 turn the page after some discussion of the hiu uh hiuus you can see um that on page two there's also discussion in the middle of page two uh of the
02:36:31 in the middle of page two uh of the floor numbering you say less serious it's the bottom of your screen less serious now it's in the middle of your screen less serious but of great concern is the numbering the is the numbering the flaws for a long
02:36:43 is the numbering the flaws for a long time both residents and ward councillors were told that this was under instruction from the royal mail however residents use the freedom of information procedures to obtain a categorical denial from royal mail that they had insisted on this residents were then told that this was
02:36:55 residents were then told that this was an instruction from the planning department i'm very concerned that both councillors and residents were misled i've also checked the planning applications and can find no reference to floor numbering there are always alternative mechanisms
02:37:06 there are always alternative mechanisms for floor numbers when new ones are installed that do not need to disrupt a whole block certainly not one of the size of grenfell tower and then further down to the end of your email on page three in the last two paragraphs you say this
02:37:18 paragraphs you say this i apologize for the length of this email but i'm afraid that both residents and ward councillors are at the end of our tethers
02:37:26 residents fear that direct action is again becoming the only option for them we would not like to encourage this but we can see their point we get regular deputations now to all our surgeries
02:37:37 our surgeries we can only provide residents with the information that we have available this puts us under pressure if we're given misleading information and also if we're seen to be aware of matters such as completion dates that have not been provided to residents
02:37:49 that have not been provided to residents now
02:37:50 now you don't mention here that you thought the new numbering could cause confusion in the event of an emergency which was the point that you'd raised at item six in your second of october emailed earlier in the month
02:38:01 emailed earlier in the month was that because it was no longer a concern no i think it was because we'd already raised it right you don't repeat it well i mentioned that um royal mail had denied right involvement
02:38:14 royal mail had denied right involvement and they've gone to the planning department we couldn't find anything at the planning department that required it so it remained outstanding it remained outstanding and was your main concern at this point
02:38:26 main concern at this point the the actual renumbering or was it by this stage the the um the signing the sign posting but it was the whole thing that everything that set out in the email
02:38:41 and you say that the tmo had misled you about the decision making process for renumbering the floor numbers have you lost confidence in the information that the tmo were providing you at this point yes by this time yes
02:38:55 you at this point yes by this time yes who do you believe it was that had misled you
02:38:59 well peter madison was my main point of contact claire williams and peter madison were my main points of contact but they were presumably acting under instructions from their superiors
02:39:10 instructions from their superiors did you ever get to the the bottom of this royal mail point no it's quite a serious allegation that you've made here that uh
02:39:21 that you've made here that uh councillors and residents were misled yes did you ask robert black to investigate um
02:39:31 well one would assume that as i'd written to him that he would you assumed it did you actually ask him to undertake an investigation
02:39:42 to undertake an investigation i can't reflect did you ask the rest of the board
02:39:46 the board as a board uh to to to to require black mr black to undertake the vestibule was that because there was no point my raising issues at the board
02:39:57 issues at the board did this problem about the royal mail point
02:40:01 point cause you to doubt any other information provided by the tmo to you about the refurbishment well it could have set a precedent i didn't know you say that ward councillors and residents were at the end of our tethers
02:40:13 residents were at the end of our tethers yes
02:40:14 yes what what did you mean by that the fact that
02:40:17 that everything we raised we just get kicked back on
02:40:22 back on and why would why did you understand that residents who thought direct action was the only option for them why did you think that that was the case because some of them may have told us that
02:40:32 us that you refer to regular deputations to your surgeries do you know who attended your surgery from grenfell tower well we didn't take names but quite a few people came and that was the experience as far as you could sit for
02:40:43 experience as far as you could sit for the other councillors i think so yes because this this um i think this email was based on something from council atkinson so he obviously had the deputation as well when he ran the surgery
02:40:54 when he ran the surgery right now moving on with this subject we we next go to a report drafted by the tmo in response to this email of yours of the 18th of october 2015.
02:41:06 october 2015. uh it's at tm00831964 i'll just put it up for you first of all
02:41:22 tmo double zero eight three one nine six four yes and it's entitled investigation into the issues raised by councillor blatant in her email dated 18th of october 2015.
02:41:34 october 2015. and we'll come back to look at the body of it in a moment just to be clear this was sent to you it seems on the 26th of october 2015 at tmo double zero eight
02:41:46 at tmo double zero eight five two six three two at page two
02:41:54 just to be clear that you you did get this if you look at the bottom of page two sasha jevons writes to you on that date 26th of october 2015.
02:42:05 on that date 26th of october 2015. copy to robert black dear councillor blakeman robert has forwarded your email for my response i attach a full reply to the issues that you've raised and also attached copies of the grenfell newsletters for your reference
02:42:16 grenfell newsletters for your reference and then peter madison is available to meet with you at 2 p.m on friday 30th october
02:42:21 october i'd be grateful if you could confirm that this time is acceptable now let's go back to the report that sasha gevin sent you on the 26th of october 2015 at
02:42:38 tm00852632 sorry tm00831964 there it is that's the first page can we go to page four in that please where we can see
02:42:47 can see the subheading changes in floor numbering
02:42:50 numbering and we'll focus on that specifically it says the proposed changes in floor numbering were initially communicated to residents in the newsletter of february 2015 copy attached and subsequently in
02:43:02 2015 copy attached and subsequently in the april 2015 newsletter copy attached in our april 2015 newsletter we reported the following two postal addresses when the new flats in the lower floors are finished they
02:43:13 in the lower floors are finished they will need postal addresses we've applied for these from the council who are liaising with royal mail the royal mail requires the lower floors to be numbered in case the emergency services need to visit this means that all the flaws will have
02:43:25 this means that all the flaws will have to be renumbered and temporary signage will be installed until the final version is available while it does not affect your address we apologize for any difficulties this may cause
02:43:34 cause this clearly states that we were working with the council brackets planners brackets who were in liaison with royal mail about the numbering of the new flats and the floor numbering this gives an explanation of the respective roles of
02:43:46 explanation of the respective roles of kctmo
02:43:47 kctmo the council and royal mail in this matter it was the council planners who informed us that the flaws should be numbered in the way we have now implemented we have taken the planner's advice in good faith and acted on it i do not
02:43:59 good faith and acted on it i do not agree that residents or councillors have been misled as councillor blatant suggests when it goes on
02:44:05 goes on the new floor numbering went live in may 2015 when the lift service was reinstated following the creation of the additional lift stops at new levels one two and three
02:44:15 three residents have been using the new numbering since this date and we have not received any correspondence or complaints until the matter was raised by mr collins in august 2015
02:44:25 and then there's a page three sorry page five
02:44:29 five bullet point summary of why the tmo was rejecting your allegations now as i've shown you the report suggests that the tmo did not mislead
02:44:41 suggests that the tmo did not mislead you and that the suggestion came from the council to amend the floor numbering
02:44:47 numbering uh did that in particular or perhaps more generally what i've read to you allay
02:44:52 allay your concerns about the information provided to the residents well it was difficult to understand by then what was going on because initially we told it was the decision of the planners to change the
02:45:03 decision of the planners to change the numbers
02:45:04 numbers when i queried that i was told no it was the decision of royal mail then the residents said that they'd use the freedom of information request to royal mail the royal mail had
02:45:15 request to royal mail the royal mail had denied that it was down to them so i was very very confused as to who was responsible and well the tmo said that did you take them but they word no why
02:45:28 did you take them but they word no why is that
02:45:28 is that because the residents had been to royal mail under the freedom of information act
02:45:32 act did you go back to mr madison and say i'm very sorry this doesn't add up because uh here we have the royal mail's response and it's inconsistent with what you're telling me i can't remember
02:45:43 i can't remember i don't think we've got a record of you doing that okay well probably given up by then
02:45:48 by then all right because i wasn't getting anywhere
02:45:55 as i've shown you at the bottom of page four
02:45:58 four um there's the reference to the new numbering and the lifts and there being no correspondence or complaints until um until it was raised by mr collins in 2015
02:46:08 2015 that suggests that uh mr collins was the only resident who had concerns about the floor numbering no mr collins was the chair of the compact and residents would have complained to him
02:46:19 complained to him well as i'm going to ask you that was the question was it correct that mr collins was the only resident with such concerns
02:46:26 concerns well he would have been putting the concerns on behalf of residents as chair of the compact the response doesn't appear to answer your concern expressed uh in your item six no
02:46:38 expressed uh in your item six no uh that the new numbering could prove dangerous in the amen in the event of an emergency
02:46:43 emergency exactly did you go back on that point no i mean as i said i probably given up by then because i was just getting the same old
02:46:49 old uh nonsense right
02:46:57 if we go to tmo double eight dot sorry double zero eight five two six three two please tmo double zero eight five two six three
02:47:08 tmo double zero eight five two six three two
02:47:09 two page one um this is an email exchange between laura johnson and sasha jevons on the second of november 2015 shortly after you were sent the 18th of october response
02:47:21 october response on the 26th of october now you of course were not copied into this particular exchange but let's see what laura johnson says in the middle of your screen i read
02:47:32 says in the middle of your screen i read this
02:47:33 this and actually felt really sorry for peter and the team this is a really good project with loads of positive outcomes for the residents and due to the negative stance taken by a minority on various details the project is made
02:47:44 project is made to feel no longer like the success it actually is officers and councillor fielding mellon take a different view from councillor b blakeman we acknowledge that there has been problems but overall apart from the
02:47:55 but overall apart from the non-controllable issue of companies going into liquidation and slight overrun and finishing it's gone really well we shall celebrate when it's finished the children go to the new nursery kids are boxing in a fabulous new gym
02:48:06 are boxing in a fabulous new gym and people are living in lovely warm flats
02:48:08 flats [Applause] did you agree just with that sentiment that the minority it was a minority of residents at grenfell tower who took a negative stance not by then no
02:48:20 negative stance not by then no not by then being octo november 15 right were you aware that rbkc officers and counselling fielding mellon took a different view from yours on the refurbishment all the time yes
02:48:31 refurbishment all the time yes right in your view was it going well no uh if we go to uh the top email we can see that sasha jevon's says to laura johnson by
02:48:45 sasha jevon's says to laura johnson by way of response same day second november 15. hi laura thanks for your positive comments i met with councillor be on friday we went through more detail i then took another look around grenfell
02:48:56 i then took another look around grenfell and it is really looking good it will be great when it's finished uh do you remember that meeting do you remember meeting sasha evans too long ago too long ago do you
02:49:08 too long ago too long ago do you remember meeting any senior operations executive from the tmo to discuss your continuing concerns i think so yes you do you do think you
02:49:20 i think so yes you do you do think you did
02:49:20 did yeah let's be more specific well i mean i can't remember that father no do you remember discussing the 18th of october response to your email with anybody at the tma
02:49:32 anybody at the tma i can't remember right do you remember having any discussions
02:49:43 do you remember having any discussions with the tma about continuing questions that you had about the fire safety of grenfell tower at this stage in the refurbishment i can't remember now we've seen no
02:49:54 can't remember now we've seen no response
02:49:55 response from you to the 18th of october report sent to you on the 26th of october 2015. uh did you respond do you think um
02:50:06 uh did you respond do you think um i think i may have responded to laura johnson because something was sent out that they wanted me to put my name to and i refused to put my name to it did you take the report that had been
02:50:18 did you take the report that had been sent to you on the 26th of october 2015 back to the grenfell compact uh i probably would have sent it to them yes but i can't confirm that one way or the other right
02:50:30 confirm that one way or the other right how would you have done that by email or by right by email and do you remember what the reaction was from the grenfell well i can't remember whether i sent it or not so i can't remember whether there
02:50:42 or not so i can't remember whether there was a reaction or not
02:50:45 now turning to a slightly different topic
02:50:49 topic and i may come back after the break to to follow up on one or two aspects of the evidence you've given just now let's just trace down one or two documents but moving on if i may um can we go please
02:51:00 moving on if i may um can we go please to rbk three zeros five four four six one
02:51:06 at page 17 this is your statement and you say it paragraph 91
02:51:19 and you say it paragraph 91 thank you as residents became more and more frustrated and feeling that their concerns about the refurbishment and fire safety issues were being ignored i suggested that they submit a petition to the hpsc
02:51:31 to the hpsc i worked with them on the prayer of the petition and submitted it to the full council meeting in december 2015. this was then considered by the tmo and i exhibit as jmb26 a briefing note on the petition that was
02:51:43 a briefing note on the petition that was sent by sasha jevons to the tmo born in advance of a tmo board meeting on 4th january 2016. the petition was then discussed at the scrutiny committee meeting on 6 january 2016
02:51:54 2016 and i produced the minutes of that meeting at which representations on behalf of the grenfell tower residents were considered as my exhibit jmb27 now the idea to submit a petition to hpsc appears to have come from you is
02:52:06 hpsc appears to have come from you is that right no mr defan asked me how on earth we could get the issue discussed by the housing and property security committee and i said probably the best mechanism would be
02:52:17 probably the best mechanism would be through a petition to the council because unless it had over 1500 signatures which it wouldn't have it would be referred to the relevant committee did you tell mr daphon
02:52:28 committee did you tell mr daphon that you had had a full response or what looked like a full response by the tmo
02:52:35 tmo to your concerns i set out in your second of october email well whether i said that or not is irrelevant because i didn't consider it was a full response
02:52:46 was a full response it was it was more of the bland nature of reassurance rather than actually dealing with the issue did you show mr daphne the 18th of october response i don't know if i copied it to the compact he
02:52:57 know if i copied it to the compact he would have seen it i don't know right um why did you why did you mention a petition to mr daffan as a possible
02:53:09 a petition to mr daffan as a possible route given that on the face of it on paper at least the tmo had provided uh an answer or a purported answer to your points in the 18th of october document because
02:53:21 in the 18th of october document because that clearly whether they saw it or not it was clearly not satisfactory and concerns remain we i don't think we've seen a record of you going back to
02:53:32 we've seen a record of you going back to peter madison or sasha evans and saying this 18th of october defense document response document is unsatisfactory no i probably gave up by then right so having given up
02:53:44 having given up uh and left things left on paper at least as they were why not at least tell mr daphon that you'd had a response from the tmo this was it you didn't regard it as
02:53:56 this was it you didn't regard it as satisfactory and focus the petition on the defects as you saw them in that response i can't recollect i mean that's an
02:54:07 can't recollect i mean that's an impossible question to answer well is it i just wonder why that's so because if you were if you if i had sent let me put the question to you if i may if you were unhappy with the tmo's
02:54:19 if you were unhappy with the tmo's response which was sent to you in late october
02:54:22 october uh and i identified flaws in it um then the question is why didn't you either bring those flaws to the attention of the tma by way of repost or advise mr daphon
02:54:35 repost or advise mr daphon that he should do so as part of the petition process well there was no point advising mr daffan to do that because he would have had less even less authority than i
02:54:48 authority than i and he asked me what is the best way to get the housing and property scrutiny committee to discuss these issues and i said probably through a petition was it was it usual for residents to
02:55:01 was it was it usual for residents to raise concerns through a petition in this way
02:55:03 this way well i'd raise the power surges through a petition as well i see so there was there was a precedent yes and and why did you suggest they petition the hpsc in particular
02:55:14 petition the hpsc in particular no it's a petition that's submitted to the council if it has more than fifteen hundred signatures it is considered by the council if it has fewer than fifteen hundred signatures it goes to the relevant
02:55:25 signatures it goes to the relevant appropriate committee which in this instance was the housing and property scrutiny committee yes i see
02:55:31 see which was the intention of it yes and what outcome were you hoping to achieve i was hoping and well to an extent the committee did consider it they didn't
02:55:42 committee did consider it they didn't accept the need for an independent investigation of how the refurbishment had been carried out indeed and we'll come to that um at this point so early december 2015.
02:55:54 at this point so early december 2015. can you remember what precisely what fire safety issues uh were still occupying residents concerns
02:56:04 concerns uh not offhand no but i'm sure you'll show me
02:56:09 show me let's go then to the meeting itself 6th of january 2016.
02:56:15 rbk3032130
02:56:20 this is the minute of the meeting of the hpsc
02:56:24 hpsc on that date and we can see who is present yep uh you are a present as a member yes uh along with mr marshall and mr macaver
02:56:35 uh along with mr marshall and mr macaver councillors marshall and mackever and robert black's in attendance now on page 2 of the minutes we can see the agenda item 4 a4 grenfell tower verbal item
02:56:48 4 a4 grenfell tower verbal item and it was a verbal item as i understand it is this right because there was going to be discussion it was a verbal item presumably because they didn't want to put things down in paper
02:56:57 paper right what does what does verbal item normally mean in rbkc pylons i think normally it means either that there wasn't a paper ready
02:57:08 either that there wasn't a paper ready in time for circulation or that they don't want to put something down in writing right was it identified as a verbal item at the meeting or is that disturbing yes and on the agenda that was sent out
02:57:19 and on the agenda that was sent out before them now now as we understand what happened looking at this document laura johnson presented the issue
02:57:28 the issue that grenfell tower had been had been completed the refurbishment had been completed and on page three
02:57:38 you could see at the top of the pa of the page that um edward defan lead representative of the grenfell tower residents association was given an opportunity to address the committee
02:57:49 opportunity to address the committee that's how it's recorded yeah i think he was cut short before he'd finished uh yes uh and let's just look at the note for the moment um he's described there as the lead
02:58:02 um he's described there as the lead representative of the grenfell tower residents association he was one of the lead representatives i think they'd set up a committee right
02:58:14 i think they'd set up a committee right was it agreed or understood that he he would be speaking for the residents of grenfell yes right and at the bottom of the page and we could well let's just take it a bit more slowly we can see that he he
02:58:26 bit more slowly we can see that he he uh highlighted six main issues in his representation and they're numbered there
02:58:30 there lack of consultation and residence engagement boilers being placed in hallways without consultation and warning
02:58:36 warning residents experience threats harassment lies and intimidation lack of response to legitimate complaints poor workmanship and site management and compensation uh concluded that there
02:58:49 and compensation uh concluded that there was a
02:58:49 was a a need for urgent scrutiny of the management of the works that had been carried out which needed to be conducted as an independent investigation he said residents have been belittled ignored or sidelined and their
02:59:00 ignored or sidelined and their day-to-day concerns downplayed he said that it was vital that lessons are learnt for any future works and the problems experienced not replicated a copy of mr daphon's full statement has been placed on the
02:59:12 full statement has been placed on the minute book and then we say we see that you are recorded as saying something and it goes like this and counselor blakeman said that it was important that an examination of the
02:59:23 important that an examination of the project be conducted so that the council could learn from the experiences of the residents of grenfell tower
02:59:29 tower she said that there had been a mismatch of information between what had been reported
02:59:33 reported and what the residents were actually experiencing she said that the newsletter center residents in relation to the boilers had been incomprehensible and the residents would not have understood the importance
02:59:45 importance council blame reported that there had been two babies born during the works that had special needs and no respite was provided for these families she said that a number of individual complaints had been submitted but had not been responded to
02:59:56 submitted but had not been responded to to and this may lead to residents approaching the housing ombudsman she said she could provide specific examples where where i make the point that the babies didn't have special needs they had special needs as newborn babies
03:00:08 needs as newborn babies in case that's misunderstood i i i had actually
03:00:11 actually understood it differently but that's that's very clear now i i paused that were you referring when you um uh say uh that uh
03:00:24 uh say uh that uh uh there had been a mismatch um to the tmo survey conducted in december 2015.
03:00:34 no i meant a mismatch between what the newsletters said and what residents actually experienced well i'm i'm asking you about this
03:00:45 well i'm i'm asking you about this because it says mismatch of information between what had been reported yeah and i'm asking you what was it that had been reported well i go back to the bland reassurances that i was given that weren't actually um
03:00:59 i was given that weren't actually um happening we so you weren't referring then to the survey which had been referred to well that was one issue right but only one
03:01:10 mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes i think it is thank you mr william well we'll stop there for some lunch now uh miss blakeman we'll resume at two o'clock please and please would you not talk to anyone
03:01:23 and please would you not talk to anyone about your evidence while you're out of the room
03:01:34 the room thank you two o'clock and mr miller yes thank you very much mr chairman