Councillor Judith Blakeman gives evidence about TMO failings, the suppression of resident concerns, and being prevented from challenging the TMO's internal review at scrutiny meetings.
00:00:22 would you ask mr splatman to come back in please okay
00:00:34 [Music]
00:00:39 all right mr blingman ready to carry on thank you yes mr mr chairman thank you miss blake when we were on or in the sixth of january 2016 housing property and scrutiny
00:00:51 2016 housing property and scrutiny committee meeting um before that uh there had been a blog published by gag in early november 2015 and i just want to show that to you please at iws40402205.
00:01:09 and i'm not sure it's a blog the inquiries
00:01:13 inquiries shown before because it's the first time i think we've seen that graphic or photograph uh but if you uh look uh at the very
00:01:24 but if you uh look uh at the very ignoring the photograph and a look at the text at the bottom
00:01:29 there's a sentence which says halfway through the paragraph if they really want to help communities living in tma properties they should demand the rb case he immediately commissioned an independent investigation into the tmo similar to the devastating mammalian
00:01:41 similar to the devastating mammalian investigation and the resulting report published in 2009 that highlighted the many abuses and failings of the tmo at that time and then over the page in the second
00:01:52 and then over the page in the second main paragraph complaints are often sidetracked ignored or simply responded to with raising lies and falsehoods etc and then the next paragraph it says this the mammalia report highlighted a similar range of unacceptable practices
00:02:04 similar range of unacceptable practices and behavior in 2009 and many local residents believe that the tmo failed to improve significantly following the mammalian scandal and has since reverted completely to type most of the failings identified by
00:02:16 type most of the failings identified by mammalia are as prevalent today as they were when the original report was published
00:02:20 published this treatment of residents by the kc tmo is totally unacceptable and the grantful action group is demanding change we urge our readers to examine the contents of the mammalia report and then approach local residents
00:02:31 and then approach local residents associations local councillors or your local mp
00:02:34 local mp urging them to pressurize the rbkc to launch another independent investigation into how the kctm operates today and to explain why they have failed say dismally to respond
00:02:45 they have failed say dismally to respond to the recommendations made by mameli in 2009. now did you read that blog at the time i must have done because i read the blog avidly
00:02:55 avidly right you read the blog avidly and did that blog
00:02:59 that blog prompt you to reach for the mammalia report and see what it was that momoli had reported on which the gag blog was saying had not been cured in
00:03:09 in 2015. well not particularly no because i was more struck by the thing about west london citizens at the start right i mean this blog does call for
00:03:20 right i mean this blog does call for readers to examine the contents of the mammalia report and then approach people such as yourself my question is why didn't you reach for the mammalia report
00:03:27 report look at it and and find out what he taught what it was that the authors of the gag blog were keen that you should read and do something about probably lack of time lack of resources
00:03:38 probably lack of time lack of resources too much other work to do right i mean had you done so might that have provided you with some kind of ammunition with which to assist the residents in presenting their
00:03:48 their position i don't know right um can we then go back to the uh evening of the 6th of january 2016 and the hpsc meeting and if we go to the minutes at
00:04:01 meeting and if we go to the minutes at rbk3032130 let's look at the fourth page second paragraph
00:04:10 and it says this counselor makaver thanked the residents for attending and presenting to the committee he said that he had noted down the main issues and the scrutiny committee was the correct forum to bring these issues
00:04:22 the correct forum to bring these issues he confirmed that he had visited grenfell tower and had seen the works in december 2015. councillor makka but suggested that a working group could have a look at the lessons learned for future regeneration projects
00:04:33 projects and he would be happy to chair this group he stressed that the group would not be set up to investigate individual complaints or issues but to look at how things could have been done better with the focus on an outcome review
00:04:48 now and i think probably let's just look at the next few paragraphs as well before we get to the question councillor beryl cox agreed that a working group would be the best mechanism to conduct a review and look
00:04:59 mechanism to conduct a review and look at lessons learned he said that it was important to look at what consultation proposals were in place for any future projects and then if we go to the bottom of the page we can see councillor press
00:05:11 of the page we can see councillor press councillor press said that grenfell tower was the first example of the regeneration of a tower in the borough and as good practice there should be a review of how the project went and she would support a recommendation for a working group on the mata
00:05:22 for a working group on the mata she said that councillor blakeman's comments that the group needed to be independent with the resources and skills necessary she said an independent reviewer may be useful to give expertise
00:05:34 may be useful to give expertise now it looks as if just on what i've read you that councillors makava beryl cox and press were all in favor of a working group being set up is that right yes and it appears
00:05:45 is that right yes and it appears although it's not clear that council of press
00:05:47 press agreed with you that such a group or review ought to be independent yes uh i think the english in that sentence is unclear it is i agree with you but do can we
00:05:58 it is i agree with you but do can we take it that she was aligning herself with your position yeah that the group needed to be independent the review needed to be an independent reviewer yeah now if we go to page five we're on a little bit lower down
00:06:13 uh we can see that councilor marshall who was the chairman says this um the chairman said that if a working group was established then it would be it would decide on what resources
00:06:24 resources it needed and its scope he said however that he was reluctant to establish another working group until those in existence had reported he suggested that the group was not set
00:06:35 he suggested that the group was not set up immediately and that urgent complaint should be dealt with through the tmo process now just pausing there does that intervention suggest just looking at it that
00:06:44 that there was some reluctance from the chairman to establish a rookie a working group
00:06:48 group is that your recollection yes right and then if we look at the fourth paragraph down from the top ms johnson mrs johnson reported that once the project had been completed the tmo board would be conducting their own review
00:07:00 would be conducting their own review and this could help any scrutiny working group with their terms of reference and act as one source of information and then if you look at the final paragraph just above a5 in conclusion
00:07:11 paragraph just above a5 in conclusion it says this in conclusion the chairman agreed that a working group would be commissioned at some point in the future but that this was dependent on a number of factors including the conclusion of existing working groups and the review work conducted by the tmo
00:07:25 and the review work conducted by the tmo did the suggestion that a working group be set up
00:07:29 be set up at an undetermined point in the future some point in the future come mainly from the chairman or was it the view of the committee as a whole do you recall i can't i can't remember right i mean
00:07:41 i can't i can't remember right i mean was the effect of this conclusion to kick the working group proposal into the into touch despite there being support for it from some councillors such as yourself
00:07:52 some councillors such as yourself and councillor press yes and in effect is that what happened um yes that's what happened um in the meantime david collins and i had um
00:08:03 meantime david collins and i had um drawn together what we call the grenfell pathway which was also a learning process from the problems that have written during the refurbishment project that did that lead to a meeting where
00:08:16 that did that lead to a meeting where between him and council of fielding mellon later he and i met councillor fielding man and i also submitted it to the tmo board and the tmo board what did they do about
00:08:28 and the tmo board what did they do about it
00:08:28 it no they did nothing with it right um council fielding mellon said he would take it away and consider it and
00:08:35 it and david asked me why later on why we'd had no response from council fielding mellon he said he bumped into fielding melon in the street and had asked about it and uh council fielding mello had been
00:08:46 and uh council fielding mello had been somewhat equivocal i don't understand why there was no learning
00:08:52 learning process from the project did you take that forward yourself using your power as counselor yes and how far did you get nowhere why is that i
00:09:00 is that i i don't know well i mean i do know what i mean
00:09:03 i mean what was your what was your explanation sitting there today for getting well i mean there comes a point when banging your head against the brick wall ceases to be attractive and one stops can we go then to
00:09:15 and one stops can we go then to um tm00853181 this is the minute of the board meeting of the tma on the 31st of march 2016.
00:09:26 of the tma on the 31st of march 2016. can we look at page one to start with we can see that not only that that is what it is
00:09:33 it is but also that you are present as a council nominated board member you see that yes uh together with paula fance
00:09:40 fance you'll see her name just above yours now if we go to page three please paragraph 10 we can see grenfell tower review update halfway down your screen there it
00:09:51 update halfway down your screen there it is paragraph 10.1 says this paula fans presented the conclusions of the review undertaken by a panel of the board on the grenfell tower project jeff zitron requested that the review should reflect and consider the fact
00:10:03 should reflect and consider the fact that 40
00:10:04 that 40 of the residents of the building signed the petition against the company and proposed actions that could have been taken by the company to manage the feelings of the residents for such a project
00:10:12 project peter madison highlighted that the post-satisfaction survey would flush out the residents feelings on the project which would help the company reconsider future projects of the same nature the board agreed that paul of fence
00:10:23 the board agreed that paul of fence should meet with councillor blakeman to address the points she raised on the contents of the report it was proposed to share the conclusions of the panel's review with rbkc did the board do you remember did the
00:10:34 did the board do you remember did the board agree to consider jeff zitron's suggestion there no why is that why not um because the report which was read out in full
00:10:48 the report which was read out in full it was a part of a filibuster the report was read out in full and at the end of it
00:10:53 it or i think perhaps even at the beginning it commended the work of ryden the work of peter madison the work of the tmo
00:11:04 yes but he's suggesting that the review should reflect and consider the fact that 40 of the residents had signed a petition against the tmo yes but the since the decision was to
00:11:15 yes but the since the decision was to commend the work of the tmo uh obviously rendered that pointless i i see so was it was that suggestion then too little too late yes
00:11:26 suggestion then too little too late yes right um but was it too late i mean after all this report was being presented to the board but it needn't have been what ultimately got presented to the scrutiny committee so why was it too late because the board
00:11:38 so why was it too late because the board had decided that they approved the report
00:11:41 report did you did you approve the rep no it's quite clear from what i said now can we then go to your witness statement to paragraph 93 on page 18 that's rbk3054461
00:11:52 that's rbk3054461 page 18 paragraph 93. you say my position was that i was prevented from expressing my concerns about the internal review at
00:12:03 my concerns about the internal review at both
00:12:04 both the tma board meeting and the subsequent hpsc meeting on the 11th of may 2016 uh in mps 2 i exhibit jb 11 my email to all members of hpsc of
00:12:17 11 my email to all members of hpsc of the same date in which i outlined some of my cons comments on the kctmo internal review i was not allowed to speak on the subject of the hpsc meeting on the 11th of may 2016.
00:12:30 and then if we go to your police statement i just want to show you that next met 3-0 is five seven by one page nine please
00:12:41 seven by one page nine please uh we can see their third paragraph on the top
00:12:45 the top uh you say uh this report that's the tmo that's the report to the tmo board of the 31st of march 2016 uh was sent to the tmo board for
00:12:56 uh was sent to the tmo board for consideration uh the debate was left uh to the end of a very long meeting and i said i'm very unhappy with much of what it contained given the latency of the hour
00:13:08 contained given the latency of the hour i said i would put my concerns in writing for discussion at the next board meeting
00:13:12 meeting subsequently i was invited to meet paul of fence to discuss my concerns when i attended the meeting i found she was accompanied by sasha jevons and both of them urged me not to put my concerns in writing
00:13:23 concerns in writing however i did put them in writing and sent them to each board member i produced my exhibit jb9 a copy of the report i
00:13:28 report i sent at the following board meeting i was reprimanded for sending my document to all board members without the permission of the chair and chief executive
00:13:37 executive and the board declined to discuss my written concerns instead the board endorsed the original report and resolved to forward it to the rbkc housing and property scrutiny committee and producers my exhibit jb 10 a copy of
00:13:49 and producers my exhibit jb 10 a copy of the report to the housing and property scrutiny committee now um you said that you were reprimanded at the following board meeting and i just want to know which one that was and you didn't attend the tmo board
00:14:01 was and you didn't attend the tmo board meeting on the 26th of may 2016. you next attended a tmo board meeting according to our records on the 20th of july
00:14:09 july 2016. that's tmo double zero eight eight six
00:14:12 six four six three no need to turn it up well actually let's turn it up
00:14:20 if you look at it
00:14:24 that's tm00886463 you are present no i'm not uh there's apology sorry you're a part you're sorry you're not present there uh
00:14:40 if we go to tmo double zero eight eight six three nine zero
00:14:49 uh you're not present to that one either well that's the same that's made that's the may meeting because i've shown you actually both minutes it doesn't you're not not presented either i think it was a it was a later meeting because
00:15:00 a it was a later meeting because it was sort of dark when i arrived it must have been march no i think it was september september yeah they're normally at 6 30 yes right early september late september
00:15:13 right early september late september can't remember right well i'm not going to try and debate the position of the sun in the heavens but you think it was september 2016 when you were reprimanded not march or may or july no no
00:15:26 not march or may or july no no right um either way coming back to your statement did paula fans or sasha jevens actually explain to you why you shouldn't put your concerns in writing uh no no they just asked me not to put
00:15:39 uh no no they just asked me not to put my concerns in writing do they tell you they didn't tell you why not um i asked a few questions about the report which they answered the the only question i recollect asking them
00:15:50 question i recollect asking them was that when where they said they'd received only seven complaints i queried that and then i asked them who had sent the which resident had sent
00:16:01 who had sent the which resident had sent the four complaints and they said it was me but that can't have been me because i'm not a resident assumed they meant mr daffan right did you see permission from paul
00:16:13 right did you see permission from paul offense
00:16:14 offense to share your written reports of your concerns with the tmo board no why not because i'd already told the tmo board i would put my concerns in writing and send it to them yes they were complaining about you doing that
00:16:26 doing that so why didn't you seek their permission to do that because i'd already said to the board i would send my concerns if i was not if it was not satisfied by the meeting with paula fance i wasn't
00:16:37 the meeting with paula fance i wasn't expecting to see sasha jevens at that meeting right did any other tmo board members read read the report or express any concerns or that you had raised um i think
00:16:48 or that you had raised um i think if kush kenobi was still on the board he would have done
00:16:53 then if we go to the meeting of the 11th of may
00:16:56 of may 2016 housing and property scrutiny committee
00:17:02 rbk3028532 this is um the part b minutes could you just explain to us what part b minutes were
00:17:13 what part b minutes were they're confidential right uh and that means this was in a closed session is that right no so not public um were you asked to sit in the public gallery for this discussion i was asked to sit in public gallery at
00:17:25 i was asked to sit in public gallery at the start of the meeting i was instructed to sit in the public gallery at the start of the meeting and not participate in the debate because allegedly i had a conflict of interest who told you that mr black and the
00:17:36 who told you that mr black and the chairman councilor marshall right what about during the part b grenfell tower board review well the same thing but i'd already opted to sit in the
00:17:47 but i'd already opted to sit in the public gallery because i put a lot of my concerns into an email i had hoped that other members of the committee would raise my concerns on my behalf councillor press attempted to do and she was shut down as well
00:17:58 to do and she was shut down as well right
00:17:59 right so when it says under b2 the first line it was noted that councillor blatant sat in the public gallery for this item and did not participate in discussions uh that's factually correct but it doesn't perhaps reflect the fact that
00:18:11 doesn't perhaps reflect the fact that you're ordered to sit up there yes is that what you're saying yes right uh now before we go through the minutes i just want to ask you about an email exchange of the same date 11th of may 2016. you've referred to
00:18:23 2016. you've referred to the question of conflict let me just examine that with you if i may um tma10013234 please
00:18:36 uh this is an email from robert black to rockfielding melon dated the 11th of may 2016 at 1707 so just ahead of the meeting and it says
00:18:48 so just ahead of the meeting and it says uh thank you for sharing this but you need the context of this and we need page three for that please because it starts with you emailing councillor marshall another council has copied in
00:19:00 copied in and there's your email there and it says dear quentin to save time this evening please see some advance comments below and you set them out
00:19:15 uh well not not the um miscellaneous matters that was querying the accuracy of the minutes
00:19:22 and then if we go up to page two we can see rockfielding melon writing to councillor marshall and he says dear quentin i think the
00:19:33 and he says dear quentin i think the hpsc
00:19:35 hpsc needs judith to be clear about her role as a board member of the tmo and she needs to be guided about whether that is an interest to be declared and what is the most appropriate form for her to make some of these points
00:19:46 these points within the tmo or at hepsc i've also copied in
00:19:50 copied in officers so that they can get early sight of the issues raised below so they can respond in case you were mine to discuss all these issues tonight yours rock and then if we go up to page one sorry can i just say i have always when i've
00:20:02 can i just say i have always when i've been as a board meet as an ap hpcs meeting i have always declared my membership of the tmo board yes even though everybody would have
00:20:13 yes even though everybody would have known that yes now if you go up to page one you can see there's an email from robert black to
00:20:21 black to uh rockfielding mellon and councillor marshall
00:20:24 marshall copy to laura johnson re-scrutiny meeting this evening there's an attachment and he says dear councillors thank you for sharing this i've shown you that and then he says this in
00:20:35 then he says this in in the second paragraph having spoken to our bkc governance they highlighted what the rules are around conflicts of interest because councillor blakeman should be declaring her interest as a member of the tma board winner when any
00:20:46 the tma board winner when any declarations are requested which i did well hold on we'll just read the text and then we'll discuss it together the committee should be deciding whether her interest is significant to preclude her from
00:20:57 is significant to preclude her from participating in the discussion in this case her interest is conflicted twofold she is the elected member for the area
00:21:05 the area under consideration and she's a board member of the company being scrutinized she cannot be using her powers on the committee to force her own needs in addition if the points she raises in the emails below have been passed to the
00:21:17 the emails below have been passed to the committee
00:21:18 committee which at this point they have she's now in breach of her duties as a director of the kctmo
00:21:23 the kctmo and i would be required to draw this to the attention of the tmo board the board could exercise its powers against one of the council's nominees but probably not wanting to do this so the council should prevent her from openly breaching her duties by allowing
00:21:35 openly breaching her duties by allowing her
00:21:36 her making allowing her make detrimental comments against the tmo board and its report uh now and it goes on in similar terms but
00:21:48 now and it goes on in similar terms but i've read the gist of this to you um
00:21:53 you were made aware were you of these concerns at the time no you weren't no i'm not until the start of the meeting when they said i had a conflict of interest without going into any detail
00:22:04 without going into any detail did you agree that there was a conflict no i didn't but in the interest of allowing the meeting to continue and the fact that i'd sent an email setting out my
00:22:11 my concerns i agreed to sit in the public gallery and not participate in the discussion right why did you do that because i was bullied by the chairman and by robert black what did mr black
00:22:24 and by robert black what did mr black say to you oh crikey he said that i'd had an opportunity at the tmo board to raise all my points of concern which i hadn't
00:22:32 i hadn't because there was a filibuster the item was put on at the end of the agenda that interestingly those minutes unlike other minutes do not state the time that
00:22:43 other minutes do not state the time that the meeting finished it finished around 9 30 which meant that the board had been meeting for three hours and i felt there was no point making my points of concern at that stage because
00:22:54 stage because everyone including myself was exhausted
00:23:02 in general were tmo board members who also sat on the housing and property scrutiny committee such as yourself expected not to participate in discussions
00:23:13 discussions on that committee about the tmo that was the first i'd heard of it
00:23:19 just could uh could you explain from your perspective how that might begin to work no because i didn't understand it you said it's the first you've heard of it in all your time no sorry at that
00:23:31 it in all your time no sorry at that meeting was the first time i had no but indeed but at that time in all the years you'd been on both the tmo board
00:23:38 board and the hpsc had anybody ever raised this question of a conflict of interest with you i'd had a very fraught meeting private meeting with fola cafedir
00:23:51 meeting with fola cafedir when was that yeah i think it was um it was the 31st of january but i forget which year in the context of what in the context of my role on the tmo board
00:24:03 my role on the tmo board yes but in the context of a particular dispute or particular topic um i didn't think so i mean robert black asked me
00:24:10 asked me very early on at a board meeting to make my position clear and at that board meeting i said i was elected to represent the interests of the residents of nottingdale ward and they would always take priority um
00:24:23 and they would always take priority um can you explain how you understood robert that to be a matter for mr black being the chief executive and not a director
00:24:32 director no i was quite a new member of the board at that stage all right okay
00:24:39 i take it that this meeting nonetheless you didn't uh press the point that um you were entitled once having given a full declaration of your interest to sit
00:24:52 full declaration of your interest to sit as other members of the committee in on the discussions sorry which meeting 11th of may 20th 2016. no no no sorry the the um the meeting which robert black asked me
00:25:03 the meeting which robert black asked me about my role or this meeting the 11th of may 2016 right i take it that you didn't press the point well we would have just gone on boxing and coxing for hours there was no point
00:25:15 coxing for hours there was no point because i'd already put most of my concerns in writing to every member of the committee now coming back to the minutes then can we do that rbk3028532
00:25:29 um if we look at page three in this part b minutes
00:25:36 we can see that uh don't think it's that page no you're absolutely right i think it's
00:25:47 no you're absolutely right i think it's page two
00:25:54 uh
00:26:04 if we go to the back to page one and go to the third paragraph on page one
00:26:12 one um we can see that there's a discussion which says mr black was asked why the report was considered to be private and he said that the board had a right to decide on the circulation of their
00:26:23 to decide on the circulation of their report but he would ask if it could be released to the public he added that a list of all the issues looked as and addressed could be found on page three of the summary report that was available to the public
00:26:35 was available to the public councillor press added that not publicizing the report could be building up conspiracy around the issues and the tmo should consider releasing the report before the housing ombudsman stage
00:26:44 stage mr black agreed to speak to the chair of the board about making the report publicly
00:26:48 publicly available why did the tmo want the board the tmo board to review to be confidential i have no idea
00:26:59 confidential i have no idea did you ask did you get i know you were in the gallery did you have an opportunity no council press asked on my behalf right now on if you go on to page two
00:27:13 we can see uh that the chairman commented this is the first full paragraph that one of the features of the evidence that they've been presented to the committee by the residents was that of wide and sweeping allegations
00:27:24 that of wide and sweeping allegations and he asked if through their investigations the board had satisfied themselves that these allegations could not be substantiated and any specific allegations have been properly processed and addressed
00:27:35 properly processed and addressed i'm just pausing there uh just pausing there it was do you remember that those are the terms in which the chairman had asked the
00:27:46 in which the chairman had asked the question
00:27:47 question i can't remember in other words asking whether the board had satisfied themselves that the allegations could not be substantiated rather than asking themselves whether there was anything in the allegations what the wide and
00:27:58 the allegations what the wide and sweeping allegations uh indeed they're very well i can't refer to it i can't remember uh i just wonder why it was suggested that the
00:28:07 that the the question was put in the negative
00:28:14 can you help well i was in the public gallery i wasn't allowed to speak very well i was sitting there fuming but
00:28:24 he was sitting there fuming right
00:28:28 in which case you were an observer and not a yeah and nothing else as i understand it and it goes on mr evans said that many of the allegations had not been specific but one in relation to the access to the
00:28:39 but one in relation to the access to the to residents properties had been investigated and the process around how access is gained was reviewed mr black added that the tmo complaints procedure could not pick up and deal
00:28:50 procedure could not pick up and deal with group complaints no could now pick up and deal with group complaints could now pick up and deal with group complaints that was not correct that was not correct was there any discussion do you recall about these um about the
00:29:03 do you recall about these um about the points that you made in your email no at all no counselor press attempted to but was closed down i mean for example you picked up in
00:29:14 picked up in in your email uh paragraph 6.2 that one resident did not make four complaints and you and you raised at least 14 complaints yeah i counted up afterwards it was actually 19 not 14.
00:29:26 actually 19 not 14. right but that wasn't discussed no no no because mike that was the point at which i discovered that my complaints were not classified as complaints against tmo they were members
00:29:37 complaints against tmo they were members inquiries
00:29:38 inquiries so they didn't appear i mean they probably were not shown to the um working group
00:29:48 and where it says mr black added that the tmo complaints procedure could now pick up and deal with group complaints uh would was that a reference to any kind of change in the tm
00:29:59 kind of change in the tm tmo complaints procedure that you'd identified or knew about uh no he'd been asked i think at the sixth of january meeting
00:30:06 meeting to investigate the lack of ability to raise group complaints and he reported back and said that there was no problem which was not correct right he um
00:30:19 right he um he says and you've rightly picked it up when i misread it mr black added that the tma complaints procedure could now pick up and deal with group group complaints that on the face of it indicates a change there was no change
00:30:31 indicates a change there was no change it indicates that he had identified a change did you understand that he was saying
00:30:35 saying that there had been a change for the better well they couldn't pick up because
00:30:39 because even at that late stage group complaints were not possible i think david collins had attempted to make a group complaint and was told that it
00:30:48 it when he tried to send it to the ombudsman was told it was an inquiry yes but my point is simply did you get the impression that mr black was telling the meeting that there had been a change in the complaints procedure for the better no i
00:31:00 complaints procedure for the better no i think he was just saying that the complaints procedure was good as it stood right so is it possible that not that now is a mis
00:31:08 mis uh spelling of not i don't think so well that would be consistent with what you're saying will it be consistent with what i'm saying but not what mr black was saying right okay but we may have to not sure
00:31:19 right okay but we may have to not sure because
00:31:20 because i i thought you said that mr black said everything was as good as it could be not that there had been a change yeah and if there'd be no change not would be the right word wouldn't it
00:31:32 the right word wouldn't it well no he his his investigation of the complaints procedure led him to the view that collective complaints could be made but only about services but that was not
00:31:44 but only about services but that was not correct because david collins attempted subsequently to make a complaint collected complaint and he's not back all right thank you
00:31:54 very good mr chairman i've come to the end of my prepared questions right um and uh maybe that now is an appropriate moment for the usual break yes well uh ms blakeman when council
00:32:07 yes well uh ms blakeman when council gets to the end of his questions or things he has we have to have a short break to enable him to check that he's covered everything and also to enable
00:32:15 enable other people who are not present in the room but following the proceedings to make their own suggestions so we'll we'll have a break now until 10 to 3 and
00:32:26 we'll have a break now until 10 to 3 and then when you come back we'll see if there's any more questions for you okay all right thank you very much
00:32:42 okay all right thank you very much all right ten to three then just a minute thank you
00:56:10 yes would you ask this place to come back in please
00:56:20 [Applause]
00:56:24 all right mr blakeman well let's see if there any more questions for you yes mr miller yes thank you very much mr chairman one or two probably just one but we'll see can you please be shown iws402109
00:56:41 this is the first page of the second witness statement of edward daphon can we please go to page 30.
00:56:54 on that page there is a heading part 4 delay on the refurbishment slow progress on grenfell's refurbishment works after the decision to invest and then at paragraph 70
00:57:05 paragraph 70 he says after the decision to invest in grenfell tower was taken gag became suspicious that the work would not be done at all there was significant delay to the project i had also been told that there
00:57:16 project i had also been told that there was significant opposition to the works being funded within the council as i've mentioned previously i was told by judith blakeman that councillor fielding mellon who was sitting on the rbkc cabinet but was not
00:57:27 sitting on the rbkc cabinet but was not a cabinet member for housing and property at the time was vehemently opposed to the project councillor blakeman told me that he was actually
00:57:37 actually opposed to any investment in lancaster west as a whole now do you recall telling mr defan mr daphon i'm sorry that councillor
00:57:49 mr daphon i'm sorry that councillor fielding mellon was opposed to any investment in lancaster west as a whole i don't recollect telling him that i do recollect
00:57:58 recollect that there was a desire to demolish grenfell tower demolish lancaster west and demolish bramley house
00:58:09 bramley house and demolish silchester estates and rebuild
00:58:13 rebuild as part of their regeneration processes and i believe that was supported by council fielding melon initially right
00:58:27 mr daphne's recollection as recorded here is that you told him that counselling fielding melon was opposed to any investment in lancaster west as a whole
00:58:34 whole do you disagree with that well i think he was opposed to the investment because he wanted it to be raised to the ground and rebuilt was that always your understanding of counsellor
00:58:45 counsellor fielding mellon's uh intentions not always no when did they change well i
00:58:52 i i i um they decided that the latimer master plan was too expensive to implement immediately so he decided that he would do it incrementally instead
00:59:03 do it incrementally instead and that was one of the reasons for the decision to demolish the silchester estate
00:59:08 estate it was one of the reasons for building the more west development on the silchester estate it was one of the reasons because they decided that they couldn't decant all the residents from grenfell tower that
00:59:19 the residents from grenfell tower that they decided to refurbish it rather than knock it down so do you think you had this conversation with mr daphon early on yes we know that the original latimer master
00:59:31 we know that the original latimer master plan was sometime in 2009 which had projected the demolition of the whole of the lancaster west estate
00:59:38 estate and a regeneration of a much wider area but that had changed and clearly by 2011 2012
00:59:46 2011 2012 there was a plan in place to regenerate grenfell tower so is it right that whenever you had this conversation it would have been before then well i don't remember the conversation but i suspect it must have
00:59:58 conversation but i suspect it must have been
00:59:58 been right i see see this is uh this is it if and when this happened this would have been at the time is it that at the time yeah at the time that that
01:00:09 at the time yeah at the time that that uh
01:00:10 uh there was discussion about the demolition of the holy state um no i think they had already decided the latimer master plan
01:00:21 master plan wouldn't as they say wash its face so they um
01:00:24 they um decided not to do it but council fielding mellon i believe was still committed to it because it was then he then began to introduce it incrementally
01:00:35 it incrementally and the decision to knock down the whole of silchester estate and rebuild it three times the density was part of that incremental introduction of the latimer master plan
01:00:48 because there was also a plan to knock down the um walkways or finger blocks in lancaster west after they'd finished the grenfell tower refurbishment
01:00:59 tower refurbishment so it's not your evidence that or is it that cancer fielding mellon always remained vehemently opposed to the project or indeed any investment in lancaster west
01:01:10 in lancaster west um well well not as such but he he did want to knock it down at one stage at one stage yeah well i think he secretly wanted to carry on that view because they started
01:01:21 that view because they started incrementally to say that you know for example the silchester state will be knocked down and they went through a massive consultation exercise on that very expensive
01:01:33 expensive and wasting a lot of money ms blakeman thank you very much i've got no further questions for you it only remains for me to thank you very much now you're supposed to ask me what i have to say first
01:01:44 i have to say first well uh yes we decide who we ask that question of but i'm very happy to ask it if you
01:01:49 if you if you'd like to volunteer thank you yes i would like to volunteer so what would you like to say well first of all i would like to say that the one thing i regret
01:01:57 regret is that david collins and i did not press the grenfell pathway sufficiently hard
01:02:02 hard because it was an alternative to the tmos working group review and it was a learning process and it set out what we had learned from the grenfell tower project
01:02:14 grenfell tower project and although it was never accepted by the council or by the tmo we did send well david sent it to the residents of trellic tower because they were next on the list
01:02:25 they were next on the list very good is there anything else you'd like to add well i'm not going to sit here with tears in my eyes and see how terrible the fire was because i watched the fire i knew over 30 of the people including children who died in that fire
01:02:38 children who died in that fire and that fire should not have happened and it only happened well no one reason why it happened was because the council first of all did not take mr dahan seriously and secondly they then decided
01:02:50 seriously and secondly they then decided to vilify me as well they didn't listen to the residents and they should have done mr clayman thank you very much for your evidence and for your answer to the final question that i did not put to
01:03:01 the final question that i did not put to you
01:03:02 you that i'm very grateful anyway thank you very much and i normally say thank you before the witness leaves the room or on behalf of the panel it is helpful to us to hear from those
01:03:13 it is helpful to us to hear from those who were involved at the time and we're grateful to you for coming to give us your evidence well thank you for inviting me to give evidence
01:03:28 well no mr minute um i'm not sure our next witness is available today no uh no uh we held a slightly no he's not uh
01:03:40 no uh we held a slightly no he's not uh he's available tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock
01:03:41 o'clock uh and that is mr carl stokes so we have nothing more to do this afternoon
01:03:48 afternoon i'm going to invite invite you to rise a little early this afternoon under 20 weeks understand why that should be the case very well well we'll break there for the day we'll resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow and look
01:03:59 resume at 10 o'clock tomorrow and look forward to our next witness then 10 o'clock tomorrow
01:04:12 10 o'clock tomorrow you