Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea Evidence - Thursday 5th May 2022 (2/2)

Full transcript

00:00:29 would you ask mr whole gate to come back in please

00:00:33 in please [Music]

00:00:45 all right mrs tolgate ready to carry on i hope yes thank you thank you very much yes thank you mr chairman mr holy can i take you back please to gol50181

00:01:01 gol50181

00:01:08 yep

00:01:23 yes i can see pack glass 31 to 33 yes that's not the right that's not the document i beg your pardon gol

00:01:32 gol five zero is one eight one please

00:01:41 yes that's the one now this is the uh email from john hetherington to you at 1859 uh on the 14th of june and we looked at it earlier yes and you said you'd seen this

00:01:52 you'd seen this and there wasn't anything in which you would quarrel with and it reflects your recollection as best you have it can i take you please to the heading immediate and longer term support and look under that at the third line which says this

00:02:03 that at the third line which says this if requested by the leader of rbkc london councils may make an approach to political leaders across london to provide political support to rbkc but it was recognized this is a small network

00:02:14 was recognized this is a small network of people able to act in this capacity and a delicate subject who said that um

00:02:26 well i don't know um but the active parties in the sentence appear to be the leader of rbkc and london councils

00:02:37 and london councils right

00:02:39 right what

00:02:40 what was meant

00:02:41 was meant so far as you recollected and understood it by an approach to political leaders to provide political support to rbk i think i think what it might have meant was that if

00:02:52 was that if councillor patrick brown felt extremely beleaguered um

00:02:57 um and uh you know completely on his own then just possibly another council leader could say something like please give kensington chelsea a chance

00:03:08 please give kensington chelsea a chance to

00:03:08 to do its job or something like that what was it at that time so

00:03:15 so early in the evening of the 14th of june 2017 that led people on this call to think that rbkc needed what is called political support

00:03:27 political support um well it may have been that commentary was beginning to

00:03:34 to turn

00:03:35 turn um so

00:03:37 um so this isn't contemporaneous but i mean the next i think it was at the next gold meeting

00:03:43 meeting that the

00:03:44 that the that the head of media and communications said that conversation was turning to cause and blame and

00:03:51 and it may be that there was an intimation of that

00:03:55 of that even by the wednesday evening cause and blame of of the fire and either the the responsibility for the fire in the first place let alone um

00:04:07 place let alone um um addressing the aftermath right was that what is will you help me what was the delicate subject

00:04:14 subject um well the the there was a crisis and potentially a huge number of people who'd lost their lives was the delicate subject the handling of the aftermath of the fire all the causes

00:04:26 the aftermath of the fire all the causes uh i'd have thought both and the and

00:04:31 and the fact of it that the the fact of it immediately gives rise to a question as to who is responsible um and can we you know in a

00:04:42 responsible um and can we you know in a in an age of media frenzy can we immediately identify and pillory the culprits and actually um it was a lot harder

00:04:52 harder as all your painstaking work has indicated it is somewhat harder and there are many more people involved in an explanation of the fire than might have appeared at the

00:05:03 fire than might have appeared at the time

00:05:05 time now this is at just before 7 00 p.m on the 14th do you recall that at 7 30 p.m there was a strategic coordination group meeting the fifth of that day

00:05:16 meeting the fifth of that day uh i i

00:05:18 uh i i i don't spontaneously recollect it no i think in fact you weren't in attendance at that according to the records and that rbc was represented by tony redpath david kerry and rebecca blackburn okay

00:05:30 david kerry and rebecca blackburn okay did mr kerry update you about what transpired at that meeting uh i don't remember him doing so uh

00:05:38 uh were you aware that concerns were expressed about the lack of accurate details about the numbers of those affected

00:05:45 affected uh again i don't recall that but i think that would have i mean that would have been a perfectly valid uh comment and i think it would have been something that would not have completely surprised me

00:05:56 would not have completely surprised me did do you remember being told by mr kerry by way of update that the police had asked that rbkc improved their messaging

00:06:05 messaging um again i that doesn't ring a bell but it is perfectly possible that he did do did he tell you that there was a an action point

00:06:16 that there was a an action point uh which one could see in the in a minute which i don't need to show you lfb double zero double one nine three double to page four which said act which said future communications to provide clarity of messaging to partners and the

00:06:29 clarity of messaging to partners and the public what is provided by the authority of various reception centers did he update you on that i don't remember that but i think it would i mean i don't dispute at all that would it would have been a perfectly valid point for

00:06:40 been a perfectly valid point for somebody to make now at that meeting there was also discussion of putting plans in place overnight for recovery and humanitarian assistance now we know from sue redmond's evidence that she was

00:06:53 from sue redmond's evidence that she was appointed

00:06:54 appointed the uh to the role of halo to lead the hasg the humanitarian assistant steering group on the 15th of june the next day yes i think that's right and i think accepted earlier when

00:07:06 right and i think accepted earlier when i asked you that she was a she had a pivotal role was there any reason why you didn't officially appoint the halo on the 14th of june and ensure that the humanitarian assistant steering group was established on that day

00:07:19 was established on that day i i it may have been the case that i was worried about the burdens that that would entail and that i was reflecting on whether there was someone who could

00:07:30 there was someone who could uh lead that work within the council's purview was there well i think although sue was an interim executive director and

00:07:41 an interim executive director and although she was new actually she was a very experienced senior social worker and

00:07:47 and i think

00:07:49 i think she could and in practice did do a lot towards making that role a reality right did you tell her that

00:08:00 did you tell her that that she would find out the following day if she was to be halo or not um i think there was an email to that effect right was there a lack of clarity in your mind as to who was to be the halo i think i

00:08:12 as to who was to be the halo i think i was quite keen that it would be her but i was worried about whether it was asking too much did you discuss that worry with anybody internally at rbkc um i don't remember doing so or with or anyone at london resilience given that

00:08:23 anyone at london resilience given that they were now involved no i don't remember doing so right was that why didn't you i think i suppose i thought that it was my responsibility

00:08:34 right but it may have been but why not discuss how you were to discharge that responsibility with somebody who was perhaps a little bit more expert in the field yes well i agree i think that would have been a very sensible course of action but why

00:08:46 very sensible course of action but why didn't you it didn't occur to me to do so i thought i had to take responsibility

00:08:53 yes

00:08:57 um can we go to sue redmond's statement please her second statement rbk3058120

00:09:05 page five and on page five we can see a paragraph of 7.3

00:09:13 of 7.3 uh she says while preparing for the first hasg meeting i was informed by nicholas holgate that an expert from london councils may be joining us on 15th june

00:09:24 joining us on 15th june 2017 and that he may take the role of halo

00:09:28 halo do you recall saying telling sue redmond that

00:09:31 that uh i don't but i i may have been thinking of mark sawyer at the time right thank you and were you aware that sue redmond was not in fact trained on rbkc's

00:09:41 rbkc's contingency management plan um i think i'd have been implicitly a conscious of that given that she had been in post for quite a short time was it a deliberate decision by you to

00:09:53 was it a deliberate decision by you to wait until the 15th of june right so

00:09:58 right so what caused um to change to make the decision when you did as opposed to earlier um i think perhaps the need to press on and have someone uh do it or at least begin to do it uh

00:10:10 do it or at least begin to do it uh pending an even more qualified person turning up do you accept now that and

00:10:15 and that appointment should have been made earlier yes i do and the valuable time in that respect was lost i absolutely accept that now uh let's get to the end of the 14th

00:10:26 now uh let's get to the end of the 14th of june

00:10:27 of june uh in your statement at paragraph 34 page seven if we can go to that

00:10:34 that your um

00:10:35 your um statement at rbk three zeros three five four two six page seven paragraph thirty four you say overall i believe then i believed then that the borough

00:10:48 then i believed then that the borough had initiated the right arrangements and the officers were focusing on the right priorities i now know that around 340 rbkc staff were mobilized on the 14th of june

00:10:59 june was it your view at the end of that day that council officers were managing the response

00:11:03 response well

00:11:04 well or at least sufficiently well uh i think i would go for sufficiently sufficiently but i think that's a view you now

00:11:12 you now recant uh i would say so i mean not least because of what we've just said about the halo thank you let's then turn to the 15th of june 2017 and i want to start with the operational

00:11:23 and i want to start with the operational response stick with page seven and look at the heading 15th of june paragraph 35 thursday 15th june was effectively a continuation of the efforts and plans put in place the day before two further

00:11:35 put in place the day before two further gold meetings took place during 15th june and i produced a copy of the gold meeting actions sheets from these meetings as exhibits nh20 and nh21 now you attended this west bay sports center at the six o'clock that morning

00:11:47 center at the six o'clock that morning didn't you i think i did um and you refer you say your statement in the next paragraph uh it appeared to me that it was functioning well that's para 36 yes

00:11:59 functioning well that's para 36 yes it was then that i learned that about 25 people had stayed the night there what was it that led you to form the view that it was functioning well uh well i talked both with the two officers who had stayed overnight

00:12:12 officers who had stayed overnight and also the representative of the red cross

00:12:15 cross and i could see what i thought was a reasonably orderly layout in particular i could see that someone had taken quite a lot of trouble

00:12:26 someone had taken quite a lot of trouble to

00:12:27 to stack up in an orderly fashion a fraction of the many donations that we'd received and

00:12:34 and i took some comfort from the fact that not a huge number of people had stayed overnight but some people had stayed some

00:12:42 some survivors had stayed overnight but nonetheless i think your view of the scale of the incident and the needs that could be furnished by rbkc had not changed from the previous day

00:12:55 changed from the previous day i think that's right yeah just out of interest what at that stage early in the morning of the 15th did you think the status in

00:13:05 in terms of

00:13:07 terms of the

00:13:08 the lrp

00:13:10 lrp framework

00:13:11 framework and the protocols uh the the west way had at that stage what kind of center was it did you think primarily a rest center primarily a place where survivors could

00:13:23 primarily a place where survivors could go for support

00:13:26 well well those are not the same thing are they well there were there were there was scope for people to sleep there but there was also scope for people to go there and

00:13:36 and meet council officers and collect goods if they were helpful to them so i think it is

00:13:43 it is it it had been a rest center overnight um if it had to it could have been a rest center again and i think indeed there were a handful of people for very strong reasons who wanted to stay

00:13:55 strong reasons who wanted to stay in that location or very nearby um but in other respects it was the center through which council officers could meet survivors if they needed to to help them

00:14:06 to help them now what communication strategy was in place

00:14:09 place um from the 14th but into the 50 morning of the 15th about providing the community with updates on the relief effort um

00:14:20 um well

00:14:22 well i had hoped that this would have been a um

00:14:24 um [Music]

00:14:26 [Music] product of the fact that the council was working with itself

00:14:31 itself across the functions and that managers across the council knew whom to contact for any given support so i had thought that

00:14:42 so i had thought that messages would go through the officers in particular attending rest centers or any other places where they could meet survivors and that that would be reflected for

00:14:53 and that that would be reflected for instance on the council website uh and other messages released to the media can we go to rbk three zeros five zero four sorry five four zero nine rbk four zeros

00:15:04 sorry five four zero nine rbk four zeros five four zero nine halfway down the first page uh email from warwick lightfoot councillor lightfoot to you and others well nicholas patrick brown subject the

00:15:16 well nicholas patrick brown subject the councils need to coordinate in north kensington and if you look a little bit further down

00:15:24 uh if you go please um to

00:15:29 to page two of the email run

00:15:33 uh the top of the page um

00:15:37 um it says there remains a serious challenge in the coordination between the council and the police around the issue of who is dead missing and who is in hospital and the council not being able to offer guidance which is i understand it is

00:15:48 guidance which is i understand it is very much a matter of the police uh i think the council has to be much more visible moreover that visibility will be needed in the days and weeks ahead the full focus of the council has to remain on this matter and it must

00:16:00 to remain on this matter and it must take priority over all other work we need to be doing i'm not yet persuaded we're on fully on top of the position can i assure that i was hugely impressed by council staff that the generosity of our public and the police and fire

00:16:12 our public and the police and fire officers

00:16:14 um did you consider at the time that you got this email which i have not told you but was it 08 21 in the morning that those were valid comments and concerns

00:16:25 concerns uh i i think they are valid comments and concerns

00:16:29 concerns yeah i think right and if we get your response at the top of page one we can see

00:16:33 see you say there at 9 17 an hour or so later thank you we are clear where people need to go westway sports center that has been on the news too and then you in the last paragraph you say we are visible at westway and

00:16:45 say we are visible at westway and although this is not yet certain we plan to visit everyone given shelter in a hotel in the course of the day to address as many of their needs as we can manage

00:16:55 was it the case that the ability to receive support from the council was dependent on the affected person making themselves known at the west way well for those that had um obtained

00:17:06 well for those that had um obtained accommodation the previous day i think as i say there we were hoping to be able to see them in their you know in or related to their accommodation

00:17:18 accommodation you know you would agree that communication about what support was available out there into the community was was was critical yes yes yes do you recall as indicated in these emails speaking with councillor wheel as we saw

00:17:30 speaking with councillor wheel as we saw earlier on the on the evening of the 14th of june about preparing leaflets and posters yup yes what was done about that do you know i don't is it right that a draft leaflet

00:17:41 don't is it right that a draft leaflet was created by a number of councillors under their own steam uh that may be so let's look at rbk3038615

00:17:54 emailed to you

00:17:57 from uh yes emailed to you from mary wheel um in 1846 on the 15th of june so it's the

00:18:06 the uh evening of that day

00:18:09 day uh and she suggests to you distributing imprinted form to the centers that have been operating even if they are no longer official and put up and handed out an email to councillors the front desk other vol orgs etc as

00:18:21 the front desk other vol orgs etc as soon as possible now that leaflet wasn't distributed was it

00:18:25 it i don't recall it being so now um do you recall that one of the co-authors counselor folks uh emailed you again the next day uh let's look at that rbk

00:18:37 uh let's look at that rbk um

00:18:38 um three zeros rbk four is 3124 3124 bottom of the thread

00:18:48 and there it is dear all i've repeatedly said to mr red path and others that we need to communicate more with communities the council is preparing a leaflet that i wanted to get out last night but there was no still no sign of it today i have

00:19:00 was no still no sign of it today i have become the focus now for discontent saying we are not listening please can you advise me as soon as you can tomorrow am what and how we can handle this situation we have been far too late to reach out but not for one of us

00:19:11 to reach out but not for one of us counsellors asking for help and advice to do so we are the front line and having to take all the blame for this we really need help and support please please see email below as an example of what i'm receiving

00:19:22 what i'm receiving and um

00:19:25 and um there's there's quite a detailed email on page four which um

00:19:30 which um sets out some of the matters in respect to which the community was expressing discontent uh matters like wristbands tagging housing arrangements

00:19:41 housing arrangements burial procedures for muslim groups or from muslim groups as a concern etc do you recall that um i don't i don't i i recall i think uh

00:19:52 um i don't i don't i i recall i think uh counselor folks um email

00:19:57 email um i

00:19:58 um i if i saw that i probably saw this um

00:20:01 um and i

00:20:02 and i would have alerted the media team i imagine but i can't remember to try and respond to this and right i mean

00:20:11 mean i think

00:20:12 i think it is absolutely fair commentary and it is

00:20:17 is perfectly strong evidence that the borough was not covering all the bases that he needed to um either at the start or by this date which was presumably the friday yeah yes

00:20:29 which was presumably the friday yeah yes do you accept that no leaflet was in the event distributed by rbkc before the saturday i think surprisingly i think that's right and what would account it for the delay

00:20:40 and what would account it for the delay um well i suspect that um as um

00:20:45 as um mr maxwell scott said our media team was very small and i think that it was too absorbed in reactive work with um

00:20:56 work with um the media wanting answers to lots of questions and really you know we had to forsake that purpose and get on with this and we didn't we weren't purposeful enough in this

00:21:07 we weren't purposeful enough in this regard but did it not occur to you at that time and this is now the 15th and this is later clearly but on the 15th that was one area comms where you could ask for mutual aid well

00:21:18 ask for mutual aid well correct and um we did get two people from the city of london and uh if martin fitzpatrick had wanted more people he could have obtained more

00:21:29 people he could have obtained more people

00:21:31 people but what we should have done is been alert to the possibility that he and his team were essentially getting submerged and they weren't coping

00:21:44 yes now do you recall well let's look at it um rbk402480

00:21:51 email chain 15th of june bottom of page one

00:21:55 one catherine folks again

00:22:08 right now this is not that email run can i please have rbk402480 please

00:22:18 2480.

00:22:24 thank you

00:22:33 now if we go please to the bottom of page

00:22:36 page 1

00:22:39 we can see that here is an email from rock fielding melon

00:22:50 to amanda gill copied to you and over the page we can see the email

00:22:57 the email signed by rockfieldingmelon sorry to burden with this this with you now when you have so much else to be doing but i just skimmed the email below from councillor mills and it sounded to me

00:23:07 me as though she was suggesting the council had a policy of only housing vulnerable residents last night see her third paragraph this is not my understanding of her policy now you were copied into this um

00:23:19 now you were copied into this um do can we take it that you also saw and read

00:23:22 read counselor mills email halfway down page two which is a an email to all the counselors and to

00:23:29 and to councillor padgett brown did you see that i can see the copy list at the moment yes uh

00:23:37 uh and then if you get to the top of page three

00:23:40 three you can see what how it starts thank you for this i know as you know i spent most of the day at rugby portobello and later visited some jameson clements and it goes on and i just want to

00:23:53 look at the third paragraph really sad to see yesterday that it was only the disabled over 65s and people with kids under 10 who were to be housed last evening whatever the exigencies of this approach some families had

00:24:05 this approach some families had witnessed people throwing their kids down or losing touch with small children and friends and were so devastated that i personally found that the idea of not putting many more up quite extraordinary and then two paragraphs down after the

00:24:18 and then two paragraphs down after the reference to the evacuation of lancaster west the manner in which this news was delivered by officers was equally insensitive there were no arabic interpreters that i could see no news of missing people one sudanese group had

00:24:29 missing people one sudanese group had traveled from derbyshire to get news uh and then uh a little bit lower down um oh yeah sorry so james told me that westfield had offered um

00:24:41 westfield had offered um a hundred thousand beds i think that is but casey officials have turned it down because kc insurance was not adequate just pausing there is that right i i have to say i don't recollect that at

00:24:52 i have to say i don't recollect that at all i have no idea what insurance would have to do with the offer of beds and then fresh cold food was being delivered it being ramadan it could not be eaten no storage facilities have been set up luckily tabernacle matthew and

00:25:05 set up luckily tabernacle matthew and pepe brought down hot food suitable to some groups the traffic in the whole area meant but meant that um the whole meant congested side streets etc no messaging or coordination between

00:25:16 etc no messaging or coordination between centers

00:25:17 centers and then

00:25:20 it says uh

00:25:22 uh however there is still not a trained central coordinator with authority at each center from the council who can connect all the agencies you may remember that i sent a message from all the centers yesterday asking for this maybe it would be different today

00:25:33 maybe it would be different today no number in this email which counselors could use as a contact which might be good to provide that's at the foot of the page

00:25:40 the page and then top of page four which cabinet member is able to be contacted should a problem arise

00:25:48 no one was available yesterday and no briefing may i suggest that councillors are trained and mobilized in the future as part of the support process and then

00:25:59 and then in the penultimate paragraph when we come to examine this they will need we will need to establish how a much better emergency and comms procedure needs to be developed now

00:26:08 now there's quite a lot in that by way of complaint um which which travels far and wide but the but the essential point is do you accept that there were a number of areas of concern with about the the response

00:26:21 with about the the response uh raised with you at this point uh raised with me or others and copyright yes i do yes and and many of them focused on the um the uh

00:26:33 um the uh the paucity of the communications yes absolutely now while we've got this email open can we perhaps deal briefly with the question of how the senior leadership team in the council including you was

00:26:45 team in the council including you was communicating with councillors um

00:26:49 um in your project athena interview you remember the project athena interviews in the early part of 2018. do you remember those uh no i don't right right let's look at rbk3029013

00:27:12 yeah do you remember do you remember this meeting this interview there was an internal inves in investigation conducted by rbkc

00:27:23 in investigation conducted by rbkc and you were interviewed as part of that process do you recall that uh he i think yes yes i remember i remember the um right leonard paulson yeah let's go to page

00:27:34 let's go to page 14 in it then please page 14

00:27:39 page 14 at the very foot of the page uh

00:27:43 uh you say i sent an email to all counsellors on wednesday evening at 6 38 p.m and the council leader sent one maybe two days later i think she has a semi-respectable case that's judith blakeman where in a sense they should

00:27:55 blakeman where in a sense they should have been bored by the number of communications from us telling them what we were doing but those emails were infrequent and i think we could have done better than that really is that right yes you accept that you do you accept that to update counsellors is

00:28:07 you accept that to update counsellors is one of your roles as counselors absolutely absolutely and do you consider that had counsellors and ward councillors in particular where grenfell was situated had they been

00:28:18 grenfell was situated had they been promptly briefed they could have provided an additional channel of communication between the council and those whom it was seeking to support yes i completely accept that

00:28:29 accept that now let's then turn to mark sawyer's presence you told us earlier in the more in today's evidence this morning that he had attended on the morning of the 15th of june and you tell

00:28:41 morning of the 15th of june and you tell you tell us in your uh well he tells us in his statement that he was there to provide emergency planning and major incident response advice and support where requested that's how he puts it would you agree

00:28:52 that's how he puts it would you agree with that i would characterization yes is it the case that on the 15th of june you and david kerry had an initial meeting with mark sawyer before the 10 10 a.m wider rbkc gold meeting

00:29:04 the 10 10 a.m wider rbkc gold meeting that sounds very yep sounds like and he says in his statement does mark sawyer that he raised the number of matters with you including um what it was that rbc casey should consider by way of additional support it

00:29:16 consider by way of additional support it needed do you agree uh i i think he would have done so yes do you remember it not specifically but i'm completely happy to accept that he would have done so what was your view that morning as to the need for additional support

00:29:28 the need for additional support um well probably humanitarian assistance would have been amongst them

00:29:35 i don't think i would have been sufficiently seized that the comms problems at that point to mention them specifically but plainly that would have been a candidate as well

00:29:49 i think then and this overlaps with the humanitarian assistance there was the setting up of facilities that begin to

00:30:00 help those who are bereaved as opposed to the survivors now let's go back to your project athena interview please at rbk3029013

00:30:12 and this is where in the interview you are

00:30:17 explaining what happened on the thursday the 15th of june page 11 please

00:30:25 if you look at the third

00:30:29 the third paragraph down in the third line you say this

00:30:33 this do you see where it says what was different about thursday

00:30:38 third paragraph down third line in is that the paragraph beginning um it begins i would communicate yes right third line down

00:30:50 yes right third line down yes and you say what was different about thursday was that even though we were not paying huge attention to media the media focus was very much by that time on cause and blame the first intimations

00:31:01 on cause and blame the first intimations that we were encountering criticism came on thursday morning and the scale of the demand on the council was becoming clearer there were also some follow-up additional auxiliary actions that the council was meant to be doing on the

00:31:12 council was meant to be doing on the thursday or soon afterwards for example at some point it was meant to open up a friends and family center so that family of someone displaced by the fire would have somewhere to meet them i was a little bit worried that we as the

00:31:23 little bit worried that we as the council alone didn't have the bandwidth to become involved with this next wave of things that had to be done now you say that the scale of the demand on the council is becoming clearer did

00:31:36 on the council is becoming clearer did you continue to believe that the council could cope on its own uh no i mean thursday was the day the penny dropped that

00:31:44 that it was beyond our capacity at least insofar as i i was able to direct it and what was it that dropped the penny well um

00:31:54 well um i think

00:31:56 i think a range of things each of them not too big each of them potentially we could have dealt with but in combination they were becoming

00:32:07 combination they were becoming too diverse and too numerous to think that we could uh get them all right to the extent that we would want to so um i think that

00:32:22 enough of the media commentary percolated to make me think that there was

00:32:28 was um

00:32:30 um need

00:32:31 need that we were not perceiving that we were not meeting um

00:32:36 um and

00:32:37 and i was worried that we my fault we were slow off the mark with these supporting these complementary um pursuits so those were two things

00:32:49 um pursuits so those were two things the other thing was the extent to which the council's role was compromised by having been the owner of grenfell tower and that causing um

00:32:58 um understandable anger in north kensington but the main thing was

00:33:04 was we were not getting or we were getting um enough

00:33:12 um enough um

00:33:15 we were getting enough queries enough uh grounded complaint enough sort of

00:33:22 sort of um

00:33:24 um adverse comment of some sort or another to make it clear that we were not sufficiently far across the range of things that we should be addressing right

00:33:33 right i mean adverse comment is one thing but from what you could see could could you give us perhaps a short list uh uh as short as you can make it if you can of the of the of the principal

00:33:45 can of the of the of the principal matters which on their own you could have coped with but which cumulatively meant that you had been pushed over the edge

00:33:53 edge um

00:33:54 um well i'm afraid i mean at this distance it is

00:33:58 it is quite hard to be that specific um

00:34:03 um i think on the day there was an accumulation of people's misgivings uh people

00:34:13 people seeing that there was confusion where by then there should have been less confusion and we were you know i mean one of the

00:34:24 one of the former cabinet secretary's favorite words was grip and we were plainly not gripping enough facets of this

00:34:35 enough facets of this crisis

00:34:36 crisis right

00:34:40 and i think you mentioned that

00:34:43 that in the mix was the fact that as you saw it at least is this right that the council was compromised because of the anger

00:34:53 anger over the causes of the fire and the fact that rbkc was the owner of the building i think i think that was an element in it and i think that if we had done well on other fronts

00:35:05 well on other fronts that might have been that might have been more manageable but i don't think we were doing well enough uh to demonstrate to people that we had their interests at heart we wanted

00:35:16 had their interests at heart we wanted to bring them as much support as possible there was too much contraindication uh that we were failing in that and that was a goad to people who

00:35:27 to people who thought very little of the council in the first place it may be difficult to divide the day up into into small slices but can you remember more or less when it was on thursday the 15th of june that the penny

00:35:39 thursday the 15th of june that the penny dropped well i think it was it was an accumulation during the day i like you know if there was a moment of revelation then it has escaped me um i think by the time

00:35:52 think by the time the phone call with john baradel and others occurred you know i was very very worried indeed right well let's take the day slightly more slowly we start with the gold meeting at 10 and have we've started already but we're

00:36:04 and have we've started already but we're now we're now going to the gold meeting at 10 which you chaired minute is at rbk three zeros one three two seven zero and we can see there that mark sawyer

00:36:16 and we can see there that mark sawyer attended you see

00:36:21 uh is the last name in the attendance list yes

00:36:25 list yes and um

00:36:26 and um he says in his statement of the inquiry we don't need to turn it up it's paragraph 73 on page 14 of his statement that he'd suggested to you that the meeting had been very operational and not strategic enough is that right do

00:36:37 not strategic enough is that right do you remember him saying that um i don't but i completely accept uh such an observation uh

00:36:44 uh do you remember whether the rbkc gold group structure or strategy was changed after he'd said what he said um i think i invited him to help me and

00:36:57 help me and whoever was silver at the time to

00:37:00 to improve the meetings accordingly that was something that he could contribute to

00:37:04 to let's have his statement up then at gol40

00:37:15 i've put you paragraph 73 let's look at paragraph 54 on page 11 and uh he says there it however in my opinion i did not believe that nicholas holgate had complete awareness of the

00:37:26 holgate had complete awareness of the scale and complexity of what the royal borough of kensington and chelsea were being asked to deal with with a lack of full situational awareness across the senior management team it was also my opinion that the royal borough of

00:37:38 opinion that the royal borough of kensington and chelsea had not been galvanized as an organization due to witnessing members of staff seemingly continuing to deliver their day jobs whilst the number small number of individuals appear to be dealing with a significant number of issues at the same

00:37:50 significant number of issues at the same time

00:37:52 time do you agree that you didn't have as he put it a complete awareness of the scale and complexity of what rbkc were dealing with i think i do now yes you didn't at the time i don't think they or did you

00:38:03 the time i don't think they or did you at the time i i'm not sure i would have agreed with that opinion at the time i certainly accept that opinion now no uh i suppose you can't be aware of what

00:38:15 uh i suppose you can't be aware of what you're not aware of yes in this case were you aware that mr sawyer had raised with tony redpath his concerns about the beg

00:38:26 beg not operating effectively i don't recall that but it's perfectly possible that he would have said it to me right did do you remember whether mr sawyer or you knew that mr sawyer had

00:38:39 mr sawyer or you knew that mr sawyer had raised the absence of a situational or sit rep from the back before any rbc kc gold meeting and that that was hindering situational awareness

00:38:50 situational awareness um

00:38:52 um no i don't remember that but it sounds like a very sensible observation to have made it it's a fact don't tell me if this is wrong that in fact no situation report was was produced by the beck until the morning

00:39:03 produced by the beck until the morning of the 16th of june the friday uh that may be so um but um i think what we were trying to do was to get the person in charge of or just completing being in charge of the bet to come to the goal

00:39:15 charge of the bet to come to the goal meeting right but i accept that a written report would have been better yes i mean given that as you described it in the project athena interview the beck should have been the spider at the center of the web

00:39:26 center of the web can you account for why there was no situation nor awareness report or sit rep produced by it until more than 48 hours after the yes end of the incident well i i would imagine that

00:39:37 the incident well i i would imagine that they were absolutely flat out on other functions including responding to emails phone calls and so on and again that comes back to why they were so flat out that they couldn't give

00:39:48 were so flat out that they couldn't give senior management within the council a situation report yeah it does and there were too few of them too few of them um now do you remember after the rbkc

00:39:59 um now do you remember after the rbkc gold meeting at 10 a.m rebecca blackburn advising you to seek assistance in invoking london gold i don't but that would certainly have been one of the one of the pennies dropping during that

00:40:10 one of the pennies dropping during that day now she says in her evidence let me just show this to you to be precise um this is uh at rbk three zero three five three six four page eight paragraph uh 37

00:40:23 page eight paragraph uh 37 and she confirmed this when she came to give evidence to the inquiry if we look at that she says during the day i spoke to tony redpath and nicholas holgate

00:40:37 uh about when responsibility for managing the incident would return to the borough i suggested that they seek assistance from other london boroughs invoking london gold

00:40:47 uh nicholas told me that he had received an email from the chief executive of southwark council offering assistance he said she had particular experience from the national house fire i had the impression that senior management at the

00:40:58 impression that senior management at the borough were reluctant to seek mutual aid despite the fact i had advised nicholas hellgate and tony redpath to activate london gold after the gold meeting now leaving aside her impression do you do you agree or can you recall

00:41:11 do you do you agree or can you recall the facts that to which she speaks in that paragraph there um

00:41:18 um well

00:41:19 well again i think there is this distinction between invoking london gold and seeking and accepting specific assistance from other london boroughs um

00:41:30 um the latter was absolutely fine more or less from the start of the crisis the former

00:41:38 in the course of thursday this was the direction i was moving in you know it's perfectly reasonable to say i should have moved faster

00:41:53 do you remember telling her when she advised invoking london gold during the morning of the 15th we don't think we're there yet

00:42:06 we don't think we're there yet remember that um i don't remember specifically saying that but if she says i did then i'm very happy to expect so can we take it before noon on that day or lunchtime perhaps on that day you were still in

00:42:17 perhaps on that day you were still in the position of not thinking you were needing

00:42:19 needing to invoke

00:42:20 to invoke the london gold arrangements i think that's fair common yes why was that why did you think come that point that the time was not yet ripe for activating london gold well um

00:42:34 activating london gold well um i my perception was that we had a great many officers uh doing what they could to first of all to assist the survivors and then carrying out quite a few other tasks

00:42:47 out quite a few other tasks it was not necessarily going to be the case that they were going to achieve instant success or do exactly the right thing the first time

00:42:57 time and i think that there had to be a little opportunity for them to do what they thought was right not quite get it right adjust it and get it right so

00:43:07 so you know

00:43:09 you know there's an element of um

00:43:13 um having to learn as we went given the very particular circumstances of this crisis and you know to some degree that was fine but actually

00:43:24 that was fine but actually the extent of learning and the inability to sort of embody the learning in the next iteration of any one task made it clear that we were not getting

00:43:35 made it clear that we were not getting on top of it does that speak to a defect in the training or an absence of training um i think

00:43:45 well i i think

00:43:48 i think you beg a very profound question about the extent to which training in emergencies has to permeate a borough so my perception of training

00:44:02 so my perception of training was that

00:44:03 was that senior management had some exposure to it and over the years they would all have had some exposure to real um crises not on this scale but

00:44:14 um crises not on this scale but nevertheless emergencies are one sort or another

00:44:18 my reflection now

00:44:21 now is that um i do not know but i believe that it may be the case that a lot of the staff who were needed to

00:44:30 to deliver difficult pieces of work in the aftermath of this tragedy

00:44:37 tragedy would not have had much training at all and i do not think that that would have been unusual my suspicion is that the model of responsiveness focused on people

00:44:49 responsiveness focused on people focused as it were a lot of what training there was on a relatively small number of people who would have been primarily in the borough emergency control center

00:45:00 borough emergency control center and i do not think necessarily that much training

00:45:04 training routinely spread out much wider than that and i think that that was a problem if i'm right

00:45:14 because it would have made those individual staff members less able to judge whether they were having the requisite uh success

00:45:25 having the requisite uh success and that again through no fault of their own absolutely no fault of their own would have slowed down the sort of feedback up the chain which might have shown us that we were not getting to where we needed to go

00:45:40 let's turn then to the support of central government now we know melody dawes was the permanent secretary to

00:45:47 to uh the dclg as it was then called let's go to clg 403084

00:45:56 403084 clg403084

00:45:59 email at 900 009 52 to you on the 15th of june

00:46:05 of june calling with melanie doors at dclg melanie has asked if you might be available later this morning to speak melanie is currently in a meeting with the secretary of state that is due to finish around 10 15.

00:46:16 finish around 10 15. did you speak to her that day i think i did right

00:46:24 now we know that on that day london resilience forwarded to you an email from the department let's go to that it's a gol401196

00:46:41 uh and uh you can see there the second email down that toby gould forwards you an email that he'd received from philip james

00:46:52 that he'd received from philip james to him

00:46:53 to him at ten just after ten o'clock so about a minute into your gold meeting on that morning and if you look at that email at the bottom of page one

00:47:05 at the bottom of page one it says uh

00:47:08 further three things from dclg and then item two we've heard from some of the residents who spent the night in the rest center saying how there was very little or in some cases no bedding or and pillows can

00:47:20 some cases no bedding or and pillows can you confirm that you have organizations such as the red cross and the samaritans involved and there will be better sleeping facilities tonight

00:47:29 and mark sawyer responds on your behalf if you look up

00:47:35 nicholas mark a positive response to dclg's questions but they would be appreciated nicholas if you'd like to appoint someone to be their main point of contact for you rather than through us please let me know

00:47:46 uh did you liaise with the dclg in relation to the sleeping facilities at the rest center or offer of support from the press office which is the other offer made um i don't

00:47:57 which is the other offer made um i don't i don't remember the offer from the press office the point about the sleeping facilities um would have surprised me because that

00:48:08 um would have surprised me because that was not a point registered uh with me when i visited the westway sports centre first thing that morning

00:48:15 morning so

00:48:16 so that might have been there would have been perhaps another loop in the in the back and forward with um whoever was then helping to run the west the the west bay sports center right now

00:48:27 west bay sports center right now according to joe farah who was the director general for local government and public services at the dclg at the time she says you and she spoke around about noon on the 15th of june do you remember that uh i think so

00:48:39 june do you remember that uh i think so yes do you remember what you discussed uh not in specifics no let's look at her statement she uh that's at clg three zero is three zero one

00:48:49 one page 10

00:48:52 this is joe farah's inquiry statement page 10 paragraph 44 she says at 12 30 pm

00:48:59 pm that's the time she puts on it i spoke to nicholas holgate i contacted him the previous day but this was the first time he was available to speak to me amongst other things we discussed the rehousing effort the involvement of

00:49:10 rehousing effort the involvement of london resilience partnership emergency financial aid and counselling support just pausing there do you remember that remember discussing do you remember discussing those matters uh not very well but

00:49:22 well but right very happy to accept her account uh and she goes on to say i restated the department's broad offer of assistance he reiterated that rbkc had plenty of support from the department

00:49:33 plenty of support from the department and others including volunteers and colleagues from other local authorities and indicated in general terms that the council was managing well do you recall saying those things well i

00:49:44 do you recall saying those things well i think i was at the age of thinking that at the time i i'd be surprised if i was quite that um confident with her because you know there were contra indications so and i

00:49:56 there were contra indications so and i wouldn't have wanted to give her a sort of falsely optimistic picture frankly right but she goes on to say i twice raised the issue of whether rbkc needed support but he was firm in his

00:50:07 support but he was firm in his assurances that no further support was needed well yes is that right i suspect that i did not have a specific requirement of her for further support and she goes on to say given the scale

00:50:19 and she goes on to say given the scale of the disaster and the number of people bereaved and made homeless as a result it seemed unlikely based on my own experience that rbkc did not need substantial support but nicholas holgate's clear

00:50:30 support but nicholas holgate's clear position was that our bkc had plenty of support now that's the impression she had

00:50:37 had would you say that from the conversation that was an unreasonable impression and she got the wrong end of the stick um well i think that it is true given the offers of support from other boroughs

00:50:49 offers of support from other boroughs and

00:50:50 and volunteers and the red cross and such like that we did have plenty of support we met we we did not have one can say with certainty with hindsight sufficient support but i think

00:51:02 hindsight sufficient support but i think it was as much about the brigading of the support that we had as opposed to the quantum right if this is the way the conversation proceeded then it doesn't sound is this fair that the penny had yet dropped and you

00:51:13 that the penny had yet dropped and you hadn't gone over the edge not completely no

00:51:16 no well no not at all well as i say i think this this i would be surprised if at that point on thursday

00:51:25 thursday i was saying we were fine because i don't think by that stage i knew that we were

00:51:31 were not fine but we we may have been at the point where i thought things were still mendable if people were learning and drawing on extra support where it was possible to do so right so i think it's

00:51:43 possible to do so right so i think it's just you know it's not a long way away but i think it's a little way away from where i would have been so we can we can we can time uh she says 12 30 p.m

00:51:54 uh she says 12 30 p.m and she has a a reference for that yeah we can time your continued refusal is this fair of central government support at the very least and your view that you had plenty of support

00:52:06 of support persisting to at least 12 30 p.m on the 15th yes i i was not that confident that central government had something that we didn't

00:52:17 government had something that we didn't have and which we needed so i know she has a little list there and

00:52:23 and i mean emergency financial aid was useful did come on stream a few days later but these things are are relatively

00:52:34 these things are are relatively high level they are not something that i could have worked out how to plug in i mean i don't know what she means for instance

00:52:41 instance by the re-housing effort you know they didn't have properties they could offer us for example

00:52:51 now do you recal call also being offered assistance from the red cross during the course of the 15th yes let's look at rbk4 zeros

00:53:02 let's look at rbk4 zeros rbk3065083

00:53:06 this is an email from michael adamson of brc british red cross 1957 on the 15th of june so we've now come to the evening at 8 o'clock also on that evening

00:53:17 on that evening and uh you can see the email uh

00:53:21 uh at the top to you timed at 1957 at copying or sending on to you an email that he had sent to

00:53:31 to you i think chief ex at rbkc on the 15th of june at 13 30. how can we help now looking at the one at 13 30 so this

00:53:42 now looking at the one at 13 30 so this is an hour after your call with joe farah at central government here is a message from british red cross dear nicholas it was good to talk earlier

00:53:54 earlier and then

00:53:55 and then if you go down to the little a three-quarters of the way down your screen

00:54:02 screen he offers to help a using our disaster fund to make immediate cash donations to people who are registered residents and wanted to meet short-term financial knee financial need we have already

00:54:13 knee financial need we have already allocated 100 000 pounds from our disaster fund and we'd be happy to make an initial condition free grant to each household of 250 pounds we can use prepaid cards so it's clean we can also provide someone to advise the council on

00:54:25 provide someone to advise the council on how to do this if you prefer to do it yourself that that was the offer um do you agree that that would have been a very efficient way in which to provide financial assistance to families who needed it

00:54:40 we can see that he refers to a discussion do you remember that discussion uh yes i do um

00:54:47 do um and i mean this is a good example of um uh

00:54:53 uh not thinking of the right answer so

00:54:56 so when we had that conversation and he made that offer my concern was that the red cross would use up its own money in this way when it might need that money for many

00:55:08 when it might need that money for many other purposes and actually the council would fund all the health that survivors and others might need but

00:55:18 but what i should have done is

00:55:20 is seize the offer of the prepaid cards and simply agree that the council would fund them

00:55:26 them that is what i should have done yes i see in fact you refused the offer didn't you that's right because i thought that it was the red cross using up money that could be put to some other

00:55:37 up money that could be put to some other use when in this case there was a source of funds essentially in effect unlimited that the council itself would deploy did you did you refuse the offer during the conversation which preceded this

00:55:49 the conversation which preceded this email or was there a later conversation i think we talked um mid-afternoon on the thursday so i mean this is an account a perfectly fair

00:56:00 this is an account a perfectly fair account of what he had offered right

00:56:05 right uh no um there was a ministerial meeting at

00:56:08 at 3 30 15 30 on

00:56:11 on the 15th of june i think you managed to attend you dialed into it i'm not sure i did well let's look at the

00:56:22 well let's look at the minute cab four zeros two seven two zero

00:56:32 you're saying you're not sure who you well if i'm dialing in i'm dying uh yes you're dialing in you see the you see the list of attendees there nick heard in the chair yeah sharma is present as this yes the

00:56:43 yeah sharma is present as this yes the minister of state that rings about the chair rings as well then there's a list of a list of names some of some of which are familiar and then there's your name dialing dialing in together with neil jerome who was

00:56:54 in together with neil jerome who was gold command from the met and dominic alice from nfb gold right so can we take it you did yeah and then if you go please to page

00:57:04 page two top

00:57:06 two top it says the chair opened by emphasizing the need for rigorous understanding of the situation affecting individuals to inform the response now this was your first ministerial

00:57:17 now this was your first ministerial meeting what message did you provide by way of an update

00:57:23 or did you not say anything i think that

00:57:30 they were relying on the cabinet office it is possible that they were relying on the cabinet office [ __ ] report

00:57:39 report as their principled source [ __ ] yes it's a acronym for um i can't remember what it stands for but it was what the cabinet office

00:57:50 but it was what the cabinet office produced

00:57:51 produced for either most or all of the ministerial meetings um

00:57:56 um over those days so i think that

00:58:03 for instance i'm not sure i'd have been across the fact that uh the a40 was closed or not um so that sort of fact would have had to come from someone

00:58:15 fact would have had to come from someone else coordinating across government departments do you remember saying anything at the meeting i i don't remember saying anything but if i've looked through the entire

00:58:24 entire account i could pick out something that might have been me right well let's not let's do that in in general terms how did you think the meeting went

00:58:35 the meeting went um

00:58:36 um well i mean given that i can barely remember attending it i don't think i can claim to much of an account of it but i think that um

00:58:44 that um this was

00:58:46 this was to some degree ministers

00:58:50 a more granular or a more detailed understanding of the facets of the crisis

00:58:59 crisis um

00:59:01 um in the round with specifics like you know transport

00:59:07 transport impediments or whatever i i wouldn't have said that it was necessarily

00:59:15 much of a contribution um to sorting something i think it was then getting into the idea that this was going to be a big issue for at least a number of days to come

00:59:27 for at least a number of days to come right now i wanted to just put a couple of instances of those uh who were there and their their

00:59:34 their impression of what your contribution was sure can we please go first to clg3030412

00:59:43 what i'm showing you is catherine richardson's witness statement to the inquiry paragraph 77 now catherine richardson was as you may have remembered the

00:59:54 was as you may have remembered the deputy director of red the resilience and emergency division of the dclg and she says here paragraph 77 that she attended this

01:00:05 paragraph 77 that she attended this meeting

01:00:06 meeting and she says in the second sentence nick holgate rbkc chief executive was not able to answer detailed questions about the situation on the ground and appeared quite defensive trying to assure

01:00:17 quite defensive trying to assure ministers that no additional help was required and just pausing there

01:00:25 leave aside her a impression of you being defensive was it the case as a fact that you were not able

01:00:31 able to answer detailed questions about the situation on the ground um i think it's quite possible they had specific questions to which i did not know the answer did you try to assure ministers that no additional help was required

01:00:42 that no additional help was required i'd be very surprised if i was so straightforward in that respect um what i would probably have said is something along the lines of here is what we think we are doing

01:00:54 what we think we are doing you know

01:00:56 you know as it were i'm not sure where the gaps are there will be gaps but i'm not sure what additional help you can require you can offer did you form the impression in

01:01:08 offer did you form the impression in your own turn about what uh impression she had and those others at the meeting had about whether you were providing adequate reassurance to them

01:01:19 adequate reassurance to them um i i don't think i would have gained the impression that they would have been satisfied i think that they would have been rightly concerned

01:01:31 would have been rightly concerned let's go next to catherine hammond's statement cab 3014764

01:01:38 and i want to go to page 18 in it please paragraph 62. now catherine hammond from whom we'll be hearing in this uh inc module later was the cabinet office director of the civil contingency

01:01:50 office director of the civil contingency secretariat or the ccs and she says here in paragraph 62

01:02:01 62 the meeting opened with an update on the current situation and then she goes on to say um

01:02:08 um however i recall being a little concerned that there was an absence of data which a local authority might have been expected to have readily available most notably the numbers of tenants in grenfell tower mr

01:02:19 numbers of tenants in grenfell tower mr holgate was also unable to articulate any plan

01:02:23 any plan beyond the immediate for rehousing or supporting those affected or what resources would be needed from outside our bkc for that to occur my overall impression from mr holgate at the 15th

01:02:34 impression from mr holgate at the 15th of june 2017 meeting was that rbkc was overwhelmed by the requirements of its role in relation to the fire do you remember being unable to give catherine hammond any assurance about

01:02:47 catherine hammond any assurance about the numbers of tenants in grenfell tower um or matters of that nature i'm surprised at that because i've had a figure of 129 or very near offer um

01:02:58 or very near offer um you know on my mind for a very long time well i think those are the numbers of flats that's right not the number of tenants no no but but it was a starting point right uh i would have known that number i think

01:03:10 number i think um

01:03:11 um but you're right i wouldn't have known the number of tenants in each flat and being able to add them up to a total that is true right and from what you could tell at the meeting do you think that they did have the impression to

01:03:22 that they did have the impression to which ms hammond speaks namely that rbkc was overwhelmed by the requirements of its role i would not have i would i would not have wanted to give them a false assurance right um so you know i

01:03:34 false assurance right um so you know i am i'm sure that they had questions left unanswered absolutely was it not clear to you by the time of this meeting 3 30 in the afternoon of thursday the

01:03:45 3 30 in the afternoon of thursday the 15th of june 2017 that everybody

01:03:50 everybody was telling you that rbkc could have extra help and needed it i was clear that there were offers of help

01:03:59 help um i was hopeful that where we knew we wanted specific help we would get it um

01:04:08 and i mean by this stage i was reaching the conclusion that um we were not succeeding nearly well enough um on several fronts and it was getting

01:04:21 several fronts and it was getting beyond us you didn't tell them that at the meeting um well i you know i was in the throes of trying to work out what i thought i think um

01:04:32 um do you accept now that your approach at the time was completely misguided and that you should have been asking for help a lot earlier i think what i wanted to do was

01:04:43 what i wanted to do was be sure what help we wanted so that we knew how it would work and complement and fit in with what the council was doing and so

01:04:52 and so for me offers of general help were reassuring and were someone to go back to later if i thought that there was a match

01:05:00 match but what i wasn't able to cope with was lots of offers of general help now can we then turn to a meeting with john baradel later that

01:05:12 a meeting with john baradel later that day it's five o'clock now we come from 3 30 to 5 00 p.m uh

01:05:18 uh do you remember that there was a telephone call that you convened at mark sawyer's suggestion with john baradel elena kelly and mark sawyer i i remember there was such a conversation then yes

01:05:29 there was such a conversation then yes do you remember what its purpose was um well i thought it was the second in the series

01:05:34 series um whether or not i uh

01:05:37 uh convened it i thought that there had been a

01:05:40 been a expectation from the phone call on witness day that there would be a similar phone call at a similar time on thursday i see i i see did you intend to invoke the gold resolution at that or on that yes i think i um

01:05:55 at that or on that yes i think i um by that stage i thought you know given some of the things we've talked about and as i say in my statement there were three in a sense three categories of problem

01:06:06 problem which i couldn't which i couldn't begin to convince myself by that stage we were going to succeed right now does that tell us that you had come to the conclusion that you needed to invoke

01:06:17 the conclusion that you needed to invoke london gold between the end of the ministerial meeting at 3 30 on the afternoon of the 15th of june and 5 p.m that day um well i think that's giving it a

01:06:28 um well i think that's giving it a precision which it probably doesn't deserve

01:06:31 deserve i think that the concerns have been growing in the course of the day and um

01:06:38 and um the thursday telephone meeting was a chance to

01:06:43 chance to in a sense confront them myself confront the the shortcomings myself and to say this this

01:06:50 this this isn't working or i cannot i cannot say this is working well you say it sir it's undeserved precision the reason i put it to you that way is because there's no hint at all

01:07:01 there's no hint at all in the minute of the 3 30 ministerial meeting

01:07:06 meeting from you that you were even contemplating invoking llag gold yes let alone intending to do this i don't think that that is

01:07:19 i don't think that that is quite right as to what i was prepared to say or could say at that meeting i think

01:07:27 i think again

01:07:29 again it's a distinction between um a willingness to accept help yes a willingness to to take up specific help where we knew we needed it

01:07:40 help where we knew we needed it versus a sort of general um

01:07:44 um a general acknowledgement of insufficiency which i didn't think we were quite at that role and i fear with hindsight that they may have taken my unwillingness to acknowledge

01:07:55 my unwillingness to acknowledge insufficiency more or less across the board as a belief that at least in some respects we were performing adequately now let's go to your statement then of page 7

01:08:07 to your statement then of page 7 paragraph 38 your your main statement and

01:08:12 and uh you say that it was my decision it was my decision to invoke london gold in a phone conversation with john baradel and others on the evening of the 15th of june there were essentially

01:08:23 15th of june there were essentially three reasons why i chose then to hand the response over to london gold first the time would come when doing what we were what we were day after day would not be manageable staff would become exhausted and thus less capable of

01:08:34 exhausted and thus less capable of assisting the survivors and those left homeless

01:08:37 homeless second under the contingency planning guidance there are many other duties that have to be carried out as time goes on and in the long term we might not have been managed due to the scale and complexity of the disaster

01:08:48 complexity of the disaster third residents of north kensington were angry with the council assuming perhaps that it should be held responsible for the fire i believe that escalation to london gold would help to deflect this belief from affecting our work with

01:09:00 belief from affecting our work with survivors from the fire now let's just just break that down if we can because there's a lot in the paragraph you say first if we go back please to page seven you say

01:09:12 you say in the third line first a time would come

01:09:15 come a time would come when doing what we were d what we were day after day would not be manageable etc um given that you say a time would come did you believe that at that point your staff were

01:09:27 that at that point your staff were managing the response and were capable of assisting those affecting i i think in at least some ways they were doing so but they were not doing so across the board and i mean you have given examples

01:09:39 and i mean you have given examples already yes where we were failing to communicate for example yes and then you say

01:09:44 say second under the contingency planning guidance there are many other duties that have to be carried out as time goes on and in the long term we might not have managed due to the scale and complexity of the disaster so does that

01:09:56 complexity of the disaster so does that tell us that at that moment you thought your staff were managing in the short term and that bringing in london gold was essentially a projective activity um i think a mixture of the two um i think

01:10:07 i think a mixture of the two um i think that

01:10:08 that um

01:10:09 um with the comms team as a as a an obvious example the housing department less so and then the humanitarian assistance as another example

01:10:20 another example um i think you know we we we were not safely

01:10:25 safely um achieving everything that it was necessary to achieve so yeah i think this this undersells it a bit uh i have to say yes and your reason your third reason is is about the

01:10:38 your third reason is is about the what you said earlier is the compromise give that had arisen as a result of people blaming the council for the fire none of those reasons that you've set out there suggest do they that the

01:10:49 out there suggest do they that the council was at that time in your view at that time incapable of managing the response

01:10:57 response um

01:10:58 um [Music]

01:11:03 i think i think we we were getting very close to i mean with with hindsight one can see that we were not

01:11:11 were not managing the response

01:11:15 individual departments or individual activities were going more or less well and for instance the housing department had done

01:11:25 had done i think quite well to find so many people and to offer accommodation albeit imperfectly and with mistakes and so on but i do not think that across a breadth

01:11:37 but i do not think that across a breadth of quite demanding complicated activities we were hitting the mark um and i think you know it it was more present and less future

01:11:48 it it was more present and less future than this implies now if you go to paragraph 39 on the next page of your statement please you say in the second sentence first sentence there is no formal

01:11:59 first sentence there is no formal procedure for handover to london gold you've corrected that yeah in in coming in today then you say but i was clear that others on the phone call had also reached the view that kensington and chelsea should no longer lead on these

01:12:11 chelsea should no longer lead on these responsibilities

01:12:14 were was it clear to you what the reasons were for those others on the call having reached that um

01:12:23 um well i i think that they had been taking probably an ever closer interest in how the

01:12:33 how the tragedy was being reported and they were very

01:12:37 very sensibly incorrectly putting two and two together and they could see that there wasn't a sense of positive development there was um

01:12:49 um criticism and there was dismay and there was unmet need in the way that the councillors had identified see really what i'm seeking to get at is whether when the decision was made you

01:13:00 whether when the decision was made you were you were making it because you thought that you could cope now but might not be able to cope in the longer term but the others on the call wanted you to invoke london gold because they thought you couldn't cope now is that a is that a fair wave um no i i

01:13:13 is that a is that a fair wave um no i i mean i i think we were very well i mean in a sense it's it's to find a distinction for

01:13:22 for um

01:13:24 uh for people to to hang any things and hanging anything very significant on it i thought that we were

01:13:34 were um

01:13:36 um doing some things just about well enough but we were certainly not doing well enough across the piece right was it the case that in fact by finally tricking triggering or agreeing to

01:13:48 tricking triggering or agreeing to trigger

01:13:49 trigger london gold uh at 5 p.m on the evening of the 15th you were reluctantly responding to external pressure due to growing concerns about the council's inability to lead on the

01:14:01 council's inability to lead on the response effort yes yes mr chairman is that a convenient moment yes it is thank you very much we'll have a short break now uh ms tongate we'll come back at half past three please certainly and uh again

01:14:13 three please certainly and uh again please don't discuss your evidence while you're out of the room thank you

01:14:26 thank you mr military thank you

01:31:26 hello you asked helga to come back in please

01:31:39 well when you're ready we'll resume the hearing thank you very much yes you're ready for mr holger yes thank you very much yes mr minute thank you mr chairman uh now um activation of the gold

01:31:50 uh now um activation of the gold resolution i just want some uh help from you about your understanding about what that involved did you consider that it was a mechanism to help a single local authority or

01:32:02 a single local authority or transfer of control to another chief executive

01:32:06 executive i think it involved the transfer to another chief executive so if i had invoked london gold on the wednesday morning it would have gone to andrew blake herbert or chris nona

01:32:19 andrew blake herbert or chris nona they were the duty thanks uh

01:32:23 uh now um rbk three zero one please

01:32:28 let's see how this transpired um this is an email from you to david kerry early in the morning of the 16th at o2 53

01:32:39 at o2 53 yep you see that uh telling him that the la llag has been invoked having vote llag hope jay baradel will join by 10 today to help expand our capacity

01:32:51 today to help expand our capacity why did you leave it until two o'clock in the morning sorry almost three o'clock in the morning on the 16th to tell david kerry that the lag had been invoked um i think that uh

01:33:04 um i think that uh by then i don't think i had seen a note at the meeting indeed i don't think he's even noticed a meeting at all and it was on my

01:33:15 and it was on my mind as you can see as it was around about 3am and that was my understanding of john varadal's plan uh i thought i probably hadn't shared it

01:33:27 uh i thought i probably hadn't shared it yet so i was sharing it then

01:33:33 and you say to help expand our capacity was it your understanding that london gold would be in in fact assisting rbkc by expanding your capacity

01:33:44 rbkc by expanding your capacity uh but that you weren't handing over control

01:33:47 control no i think that um i i can't remember the terms on which uh the phone conversation had concluded but i was certainly expecting

01:33:58 i was certainly expecting to be

01:33:59 to be in effect superseded um

01:34:02 um and i mean to help expand our capacity is a

01:34:05 is a is a

01:34:07 is a sort of

01:34:08 sort of roundabout way of saying you know we're going to we're going to draw on the resources of at least some if not many other london boroughs in a more full-on sense than

01:34:19 boroughs in a more full-on sense than we've done so far right i wonder if i wonder if that's right can we look

01:34:24 we look at an email you sent a little bit later that morning at rbk405673

01:34:36 this is an email sent by you

01:34:39 you at oh six fourteen on the sixteenth so it's three and a half hours after you've sent a message the message to david kerry we've just looked at to him again copied to tony redpath

01:34:50 copied to tony redpath and stuart priestley and what you're doing is sending to them as an fyi

01:34:56 as an fyi an email you sent a minute the minute before to carolyn downs charlie parker at westminster and kim darrow at hammersmith and fulham yes

01:35:07 hammersmith and fulham yes and in that you say thank you for your several offers of help last night i invoked london wide llag arrangements so we may be seeking help from many colleagues however i suggest that given

01:35:18 colleagues however i suggest that given the location of the tower our four boroughs form a nucleus

01:35:27 did you think that you or rbkc at least would still be leading

01:35:33 leading the

01:35:33 the uh

01:35:34 uh relief effort the response but with support now from westminster hammersmith and fulham and perhaps other boroughs

01:35:46 no i think the sentence last night i invoked london-wide arrangements so we may be seeking help from many colleagues meant we as in london gold with

01:35:58 london gold with rbkc working to london gold may be seeking help from many colleagues meant that i mean any london borough could be asked to give surprise

01:36:08 surprise but i was conscious that these four boroughs were all close to relatively close to the westway sports centre and i think i was worried given some of the feedback you've already

01:36:20 some of the feedback you've already touched on that we weren't doing well enough there so here was something we could do in the meantime if they were amenable right i see now in the preparatory questionnaire for your project athena interview

01:36:32 for your project athena interview which was done as i've shown you in early 2018 you indicated that by invoking lnag you were quotes agreeing to seed gold responsibilities to john baradel unquote

01:36:43 responsibilities to john baradel unquote so i'm not going to show it to you unless you want to see it and that is what you say was that your belief at the time

01:36:48 time that you were ceding gold responsibilities to john baradel or is it just a description of what occurred um i i'm

01:36:57 um i i'm i think because i had understood that john was going to come to the council the next morning that he was going to be the london gold

01:37:09 that he was going to be the london gold to begin with and i mean i was conscious of the rotor that um

01:37:17 chief executives formed so i probably didn't think he was going to do it for a long time but i think i thought he was the first of a series i see i see did did you think you were going to

01:37:29 did you think you were going to remain in charge in practical terms into friday until john baradel had in practical terms taken over uh i think the answer is no i think that if

01:37:42 i think the answer is no i think that if you would ask me round about eight o'clock in the morning i would have said um i'm introducing john to

01:37:51 john to the various people working hard across the council and he is going to start taking decisions and design you know showing us where we've gone wrong and um

01:38:03 showing us where we've gone wrong and um giving himself a freer hand than i had given myself to draw on uh potentially large numbers of people from other boroughs

01:38:14 other boroughs am i right in understanding that he assumed the position of gold simply by virtue of being in that point on the rotor that he wasn't chosen for his particular

01:38:25 that he wasn't chosen for his particular expertise um that might be that might be so mr chairman i i um felt um

01:38:34 felt um that he in safari's london borough chief executives had any expert it was he he and elena kelly working in support of him i think

01:38:46 working in support of him i think were the two chief executives who as it were specialized in um how the boroughs should work singly all together to provide emergency support

01:38:57 together to provide emergency support and um

01:38:59 and um i was not sure i mean i wouldn't have been able to tell you whether he was the person on the rotor or not right right um what was your understanding of the role london local authority goal held in

01:39:12 role london local authority goal held in relation to the responsibility for the grenfell tower residents and wider evacuees evacuees from other buildings

01:39:22 buildings i would have said that the tragedy had to be managed however multifaceted it was it would probably have to be managed as a single program and therefore even if

01:39:34 and therefore even if london gold was um willing in practice to delegate some particular function to another borough uh that would be his decision

01:39:47 uh that would be his decision so you know a very good move they made i think um earlier the following week if not sooner was to put eeling borough in charge of the westward sports centre and that was a very good

01:39:59 sports centre and that was a very good way of bringing senior people and a large number of people to bring order to something that obviously hadn't had enough water before then

01:40:08 then now let me show you a document from central government after the fire and after the after effects cab 3014768

01:40:24 this is a this is a cabinet office document

01:40:28 document uh

01:40:31 cab three zero is one four seven six eight now if you can go just just get police to page one of this document i can show you what it is uh it's a lessons learned document

01:40:42 uh it's a lessons learned document grenfell tower tragedy lessons for the central response and i'd like just to show you page three please and explore paragraph 12 with you

01:40:53 please and explore paragraph 12 with you it says

01:40:55 it says crips

01:40:57 crips were issued daily based on information sourced via a number of departments and in particular from gold via dclg

01:41:09 and then it goes on uh halfway down the paragraph there was also uncertainty you see

01:41:14 see over the respective role of the council and recovery gold cobra understood that the latter john baradel had taken control of the response on the ground but it subsequently transpired that he

01:41:25 but it subsequently transpired that he was only responsible for the residence of the tower itself not always affected in the wider community or adjacent properties which remained the responsibility of rbkc

01:41:36 remained the responsibility of rbkc was that your understanding at the time no

01:41:40 no what did you understand at the time uh well as i've just said i would have thought that there were there was a sufficient commonality of

01:41:52 there was a sufficient commonality of problems afflicting uh residents even though those of course in grenfell tower itself had suffered far far more than any others but i would have said that

01:42:04 but i would have said that it needed to be managed as a totality did it

01:42:08 did it occur to you during those days 16 17 perhaps the john baradel's view of his role

01:42:14 role was limited to the residents of the tower

01:42:17 tower well

01:42:19 well i mean the astonishing frankly astonishing thing is that this was not a

01:42:27 a topic of conversation a sort of currency of conversation over those days that i can recall um

01:42:35 um i mean i can attempt to uh work out why that might be so but i i simply don't recall this being a matter of dialogue

01:42:46 dialogue to the extent that i was involved in it once he had taken over do you not recall any

01:42:52 any reporting any feedback from people like teresa brown in the tmo or anybody else from the tmo coming back to you and explaining what difficulties they were having with residents who have been evacuated from

01:43:03 residents who have been evacuated from the walkways um i do recall that at various times the groups of residents affected fluctuated and sometimes it

01:43:15 affected fluctuated and sometimes it included the finger blocks and of course grenfell walk what i don't remember is an interaction or a

01:43:23 or a an interplay between the plights of those groups of residents and the range of responsibilities being run from what turned into the westminster owned um

01:43:37 the westminster owned um back

01:43:41 but i mean did anybody tell you with things like we've got a problem in accommodating 450 or 800 residents from the walkways we don't know where to put them um people are sleeping rough that

01:43:53 them um people are sleeping rough that kind of does anybody ever come back to you with that sort of information well it which days are we 12 16 15 16. um i think that we were trying to provide

01:44:04 provide accommodation support for people beyond the tower itself but we weren't always succeeding i think quite a lot of people had to stay with

01:44:15 had to stay with friends relatives neighbours not in the affected buildings but nearby but was there any discussion that you had

01:44:23 had with john baradel about the limits of his role once he taken over gold um i do not recall any discussion of that sort of issue no i don't well let's

01:44:34 that sort of issue no i don't well let's come back to that in a moment in your statement you say as we've seen and i think you've now corrected there's no formal handover procedure to london gold that's paragraph 39 as we've seen

01:44:46 that's paragraph 39 as we've seen was there a handover well he um came i think he came actually about eight o'clock in the morning on the friday um and he sat in on as an observer the first gold meeting and i think i say in

01:44:58 first gold meeting and i think i say in my

01:44:59 my statement that you know i offered him the chair of the meeting because i thought that um that was what was going to happen um he wanted to be an observer i thought

01:45:10 um he wanted to be an observer i thought that was absolutely fine if that was his way of

01:45:14 way of finding out what we were doing and not doing

01:45:16 doing um

01:45:18 um then

01:45:19 then um going on from that we had the ministerial meeting in the afternoon and we

01:45:24 we attended that by telephone as a sort of double act i would say um yeah

01:45:30 um yeah right well let's we'll get to the 10 o'clock gold meeting on the morning of the 16th of june in a moment before we do let me just ask you this once the decision to activate london gold had been made

01:45:43 to activate london gold had been made and made by you is it right that didn't in fact john beridal took responsibility at or from the two o'clock in the in the afternoon on the 16th of june

01:45:54 the 16th of june um

01:45:55 um well i

01:45:56 well i i think that is broadly right um in the sense that uh i was happy to in most respects defer to him

01:46:05 to him as the spokesman for local authorities when we had the meeting with the prime minister and others uh on the phone let's just go to his second statement then gol 401706

01:46:23 and if we can go please to page 15

01:46:31 you can see there paragraph 82 he says it was agreed by nicholas that we would activate the london local authority gold arrangements that afternoon it's the 16th

01:46:41 16th and my records are that i took on that responsibility at 1400. i am i am aware that an email was circulated by london resilience at 1327 that's

01:46:52 that's gol50157 the request was made by nicholas between 1300 to 1330 on the 16th of june and we dialed into the ministerial cobra meeting at 1400 where

01:47:03 ministerial cobra meeting at 1400 where we informed the group of the activation do you agree with what he says there um well we may well have had a conversation where he said um i'm taking over now

01:47:14 where he said um i'm taking over now and that is how i would interpret um the comp the uh one to one thirty thing but but i would describe it slightly differently i think

01:47:25 describe it slightly differently i think that

01:47:26 that it was his to assume when he chose to do so from any time from the thursday evening phone call onwards and my interpretation of

01:47:39 and my interpretation of uh the delay from what i saw as a delay from thursday evening to friday lunchtime is that he thought he would do a better job as london gold via a period of observation first

01:47:52 via a period of observation first then in a sense you know leaping in and having to cover both operational short-term decisions while at the same time as doing what he had

01:48:05 at the same time as doing what he had done by the saturday morning which is designed

01:48:08 designed very

01:48:09 very um significant management structure for running the grenfell fire recovery task force or whatever it was called so was it his decision

01:48:20 so was it his decision it the decision having been made at 5 p.m or so on the 15th to delay

01:48:26 to delay practical

01:48:27 practical takeover of gold until 2 o'clock that that would be my interpretation yes um as i say in practice i think there is less

01:48:38 in practice i think there is less of a difference there than you know

01:48:40 you know might appear to be so i think he was on the case i mean he was on the case anyway because he'd been part of the phone calls on monday on the wednesday and thursday evenings

01:48:52 and thursday evenings he was present in the town hall from reasonably early on the friday morning so to me he was assuming responsibilities and you know if he had seen something he

01:49:03 and you know if he had seen something he didn't approve of and indeed there was something he disapproved of uh in the morning of that friday he made his views known to me so i you know i was in the most

01:49:14 i you know i was in the most constructive way possible being man marked if you like but but but he was assuming uh

01:49:23 uh understanding of and then control of the recovery process right so who was gold

01:49:30 gold it who was occupying the gold roll between 5 p.m on the 15th and 2 p.m on the scene well i think by default it was still me it was still you but there was i think is this right essentially a

01:49:41 i think is this right essentially a parallel

01:49:43 parallel support track offered by john barrow from n e g gold during that over that period well he he my interpretation of his role on the

01:49:54 my interpretation of his role on the friday morning was as observer and when he wanted to to comment or contribute um in the course of that morning and that was a role that i think he wanted to take in

01:50:06 role that i think he wanted to take in order that he could think about the future while not being overly assailed by the present that's my interpretation

01:50:21 now you may remember that on the saturday uh

01:50:26 uh nicholas padgett brown the then leader had an interview with the bbc uh the program was the world this weekend

01:50:34 weekend uh

01:50:35 uh and uh

01:50:37 and uh he

01:50:39 he is recorded as let's let's look at it it's um

01:50:43 it's um rbk3035001

01:50:55 and if we go please to paragraph 121

01:51:01 uh on

01:51:07 uh paige

01:51:08 paige page 27

01:51:11 page 27 he says

01:51:15 the scale of the tragedy was now developing additional dimensions including the increased pressure presented by surrounding homes close to the tower having to be evacuated and those residents also requiring humanitarian assistance

01:51:27 humanitarian assistance additionally families and friends of residents of the tower were arriving seeking information about loved ones this quickly became a crisis on a scale that london had not witnessed since the end of the war and that no local plan

01:51:38 end of the war and that no local plan alone could accommodate uh

01:51:42 uh and he told the bbc that no one borough alone would be able to cope with the scale of it saying that the magnitude of this disaster on the wednesday is such that one borough alone would not be able to

01:51:53 one borough alone would not be able to manage

01:51:54 manage um

01:51:55 um would you have agreed do you agree when well i agree now um when did the leader make the statement on the saturday yes well i think that we had all agreed by then that no one

01:52:07 had all agreed by then that no one borrower could have coped even with selective reinforcement now let's then go and this is a slightly later document still tmo10033161

01:52:20 page two second half of page two email to colleagues on the 18th of june that's the sunday

01:52:33 i'll be tm01033161

01:52:41 and this if you look at the email that

01:52:46 um

01:52:49 yes we need page two please

01:52:54 email halfway down 1521 from you to kevin bartle and tony redpath and a number of others including councillor padgett brown colleagues it says as tiny redpath

01:53:05 colleagues it says as tiny redpath emailed today the response to the tragedy has moved into a new phase under london local authority gold the council has recognized that the scale the possible duration and the range of implications are such that a significantly larger and more complex

01:53:17 significantly larger and more complex response is required drawing on officers from across london boroughs to be sustainable there is also a growing contribution from central government which is also welcome even if coordination is therefore at an even

01:53:29 coordination is therefore at an even greater premium and then it goes on in the third paragraph but royal borough is a proud council with a reputation for delivering outstanding services it is

01:53:40 outstanding services it is understandable that some members of staff will feel that the new arrangement new arrangements are a sign that we have failed and that others are now coming in to take over neither is the case on the contrary by calling in support we

01:53:52 on the contrary by calling in support we have demonstrated our ability to make the right call at the right time our duty now is to use our best endeavors to make the new arrangements succeed now when you say there that rbkc had

01:54:03 now when you say there that rbkc had demonstrated its ability to make the right call at the right time looking back on the material we've covered that was not correct was it no it was the right call at the wrong time uh you're

01:54:14 right call at the wrong time uh you're quite right um i think that that was um i think it was trying to cheer people up basically

01:54:22 basically so it was what other witnesses in this inquiry might have called puff puff i think was is a very fair and generous assessment let's then go to the gold meeting on the 16th come back to it

01:54:34 come back to it um

01:54:35 um that's the first council gold meeting on that day john baradel was present you say as an observer did you have any conversations with or conversation with john baradel uh outside that meeting about the status

01:54:47 uh outside that meeting about the status of the response that moment that morning and what the immediate requirements were uh i'm i'm sure we did talk because he came i think he came about two hours earlier um

01:54:58 earlier um so i think um i'm sure we did but i don't remember details about a specific conversation now following that meeting i think you say that nothing changed very quickly yes yes yes

01:55:10 yes yes yes uh

01:55:11 uh and if we go to mol 6036 this was an scg meeting at 11 o'clock that morning so strategic command so strategic community coordination

01:55:23 so strategic community coordination group minutes 11 o'clock 16th of june teleconference you see that yep and

01:55:30 and if you go please to page six you'll see there the list of attendees see that their page uh well it starts on page five in fact but if you go there

01:55:41 page five in fact but if you go there you can see from london resilience group we have john hetherington and others uh

01:55:48 uh and

01:55:49 and we can see that from local authorities you and john baradel yes yes

01:55:56 yes um now um

01:55:59 uh if you go please to um

01:56:03 um any urgent business which you'll find uh on page

01:56:09 page two

01:56:12 sorry page one first item page one it says the chair discussed what does recovery look like and the transition to this should be starting to be considered john

01:56:23 should be starting to be considered john baridil confirmed that this is the case the ongoing community tensions are the reason for this change over not taking place

01:56:29 place as yet

01:56:30 as yet is that right

01:56:34 uh i'm not sure what that means no

01:56:40 no do you accept that the reason the response hadn't transferred to recovery and as such to be led by the local authority was because rbkc was not ready rather than due to community

01:56:51 not ready rather than due to community tensions

01:56:57 um well i think that we certainly weren't in a stable situation

01:57:04 situation um

01:57:05 um and in that sense

01:57:08 if what you mean by recovery is that everything is in place in support of the bereaved and the survivors then i don't think we claim to have reached that situation on the

01:57:19 have reached that situation on the friday morning um

01:57:22 um but it but the community tensions are a reason

01:57:25 reason um why we escalated not not not a huge reason but one reason among several

01:57:34 and if you go to page two under the heading local authority

01:57:40 authority the first bullet point says

01:57:43 general community feeling is of hurt and anger this is being stoked by a small number of known local instigators who continue to fabricate stories in order to further their aims

01:57:54 to further their aims what was that about um i think it was a suspicion that in amongst a great deal of completely genuine and justified

01:58:05 genuine and justified criticism

01:58:07 criticism um it was within the scope of a handful of people who were all the time well before the fire extremely antagonistic to the council

01:58:18 antagonistic to the council to make matters even worse um

01:58:23 um i think we thought something of that was going on um but we did not know and [Music]

01:58:31 [Music] there was nothing that we could sensibly do about it even if it were true was there a slight sense at least that these comments are perhaps unfairly sought to deflect

01:58:42 perhaps unfairly sought to deflect attention away from the failings of the council's response in the immediate aftermath uh no i think that we were by then we were perfectly um

01:58:53 um all too well aware that we were not doing anything like the quality of job that we thought we should be and that i thought was feasible on the wednesday now

01:59:06 can i ask you one or two questions about the tmo at this point can we go to rbk3010176

01:59:18 this is an email thread on the 16th of june earlier on in the day and

01:59:26 and it's an it contains an email from barbara brownlee in the second half of your screen there on page one and she's from westminster city council and it's forwarded through the back at rbkc to laura johnson's and stuart

01:59:37 rbkc to laura johnson's and stuart priestley as you can see from the top email on the screen looking at that second email down barbara brownlee says this there are currently unofficial calls for

01:59:49 there are currently unofficial calls for assistance i'm sorry i should time this it's 11 51 on the 16th of june so this is at a time between the two meetings the two to between the gold meeting and the strategic coordination group meeting

02:00:03 strategic coordination group meeting and it says there are currently unofficial calls for assistance coming from the knc's tma for help they've used what whatsapp to send out a message to some london councils saying that their staff are exhausted and they need

02:00:14 staff are exhausted and they need resources on for the weekend i also now have emails from housing consultancies saying the same thing this is a disorganized and very unofficial way to raise help after we've been offering it since the very beginning i'm concerned

02:00:26 since the very beginning i'm concerned that too many inexperienced staff will descend upon the respite sensors without any planning and simply make the situation worse please can you raise with k c beck thanks barbara

02:00:38 thanks barbara now

02:00:39 now um if we then go to

02:00:52 rbk401923 um

02:00:56 amanda johnson you can see responds to barbara brownlee on the 20th of june 2017 at 12 58 copying you in and i say copying you and she she

02:01:09 and i say copying you and she she forwards it to you and she says barbara at this morning's meeting you explained that resources would not be made available to support the tmo in terms of housing management staff the tmo is now struggling to mobilize staff to support people back

02:01:21 mobilize staff to support people back into their homes i'm clarifying the number of staff that have not attended work today staff are extremely frightened and the lack of staff will significantly undermine our ability to get people back into their homes accelerating already heightened tensions

02:01:33 accelerating already heightened tensions the london wide response has been extremely helpful in supporting our bkc and i'm struggling to see why this cannot be extended to the tmo as there is a direct impact on our tenants and staff safety please can you raise this

02:01:45 staff safety please can you raise this with gold

02:01:46 with gold and then at the top of the page as you can see amanda johnson sends this to laura johnson and and you uh the same date this is the 20th now so uh we're now i'm at

02:01:59 uh we're now i'm at the tuesday i'm really quite concerned about gold's response please see below now as i say this is some days after the 16th but when did you first learn of this problem this problem about um the tmo struggling

02:02:12 this problem about um the tmo struggling to mobilize staff to assist evacuated residents and the walkways i i i'm sorry i just don't remember when that would have um when i would have

02:02:25 that would have um when i would have learned of that plainly i would have learned of it through this email yes but i wouldn't have i don't remember knowing of it before this email who would you have expected to brief you

02:02:36 have expected to brief you if there had been a problem with the london gold resources not extending far enough so as to be able to assist the tmo in their role uh well i think that um i mean london

02:02:50 uh well i think that um i mean london gold was

02:02:51 gold was in charge of a lot of rbkc staff by at the very latest the saturday morning

02:03:00 morning and any of them could have noticed i mean i suppose it's more obviously going to be housing staff than others but any of them could have said there is

02:03:12 but any of them could have said there is a mismatch here you know isn't this going to be a big problem

02:03:19 do you know why this was a problem

02:03:23 why the failure of tmo staff to turn up and so on well why resources weren't being made available from london gold to assist tmo um well it looks as though this is a

02:03:34 um well it looks as though this is a further um example of the issue that gold london gold interpreted their role as being just that of the tower as opposed to associated

02:03:46 associated problems on the wider estate did you learn that or did you have that perception during the first seven days after the event no you didn't no can i then turn to the ministerial visit

02:03:58 can i then turn to the ministerial visit to the west way do you remember that uh on the morning of the 16th of uh june the friday there was a visit at 9 00 a.m at the west way from the secretary of state at the dclg who was by then sajid

02:04:10 state at the dclg who was by then sajid javid do you remember that um i think i knew that he did visit uh that day yes you weren't in attendance no no why did he visit or rather why were you not there

02:04:21 there um

02:04:22 um it may just be that i wasn't invited i think the leader of the council was there

02:04:27 there um or if you would i'd be quite surprised if either the leader or deputy leader of the council weren't there and if they weren't there it might have been um almost a deliberate um act on the

02:04:40 um almost a deliberate um act on the part of the secretary of state but i would have thought either the leader or deputy leader would have been there

02:04:46 there right

02:04:47 right i mean my question was did you decide not to go or did you not learn that there was to be a visit um i think i knew off the visit but um i think my high priority that morning

02:04:58 um i think my high priority that morning was to help john right did somebody decide you shouldn't be there or you you decide not to go i don't remember deciding not to be there i think i had a i had a prior engagement

02:05:10 i think i had a i had a prior engagement in effect now those from the department who attended the meeting of the west way included joe farah and she was critical among about among other things the absence of a senior rbkc

02:05:23 of a senior rbkc officers at the rest center that's how she observed it do you have anything to say about that um well i accept her criticism i think she's probably right and i think it was an issue

02:05:35 an issue uh for much of the for much of this period that we under resourced um the coverage of the of the west way as a as the management of a center did you did

02:05:46 the management of a center did you did should you have attended and given assurances or to central government or perhaps

02:05:52 perhaps um asked central government for further assistance um i think that is something that they they could have done they could have rounded up some civil servants and said please make sense of or support the council's

02:06:04 sense of or support the council's services in these respects at this location yeah i think that would have been feasible do you remember having a meeting with joe farah a little bit later that morning at about noon uh at the town hall i don't remember

02:06:17 uh at the town hall i don't remember that you don't uh let's um let's go to clg 3030-414

02:06:25 what i'm showing you is dr joe farah's statement

02:06:30 statement and if we go to page 16 in it please paragraph 78 she says at the foot of the page i went to see

02:06:38 to see nicholas holgate as planned and was surprised that he was not available to see me i had to wait for some time when i was shown to his office john baradel was present and in discussion with nicholas holgate just pausing that

02:06:50 nicholas holgate just pausing that is does that accord with your recollection um i don't i don't remember this meeting but of course you know if she says it occurred it occurred right yeah then she goes on my recollection is john

02:07:01 then she goes on my recollection is john stated he was there to support nicholas holgate and that there would be a chief executive rota as part of the london resilience arrangements do you remember john baradel telling joe farah that no

02:07:14 john baradel telling joe farah that no then she says i did not think this sounded sensible and we felt we needed an experienced person to be in the lead rather than in support do you remember any discussion around that no about it but no but it does make sense

02:07:25 but no but it does make sense given the

02:07:27 given the um

02:07:27 um the ministry's um opening statement that they were very pleased that he had agreed to

02:07:33 agreed to become the london gold it was the original position in fact that john baradel was going to support you rather than to lead the response well in a limited way i think there are two different things there's an indication

02:07:44 different things there's an indication of london gold and then there is who that london gold might be and how quickly someone would be in place and i had made the assumption given his appearance that it was him

02:07:55 appearance that it was him did the position change in any way did the intended position change in any way after this meeting with joe farah uh well

02:08:04 uh well um i mean according to john's own account he took up the role at two o'clock yes but did he only take the roll up at two o'clock off as a result of joe farah's intervention and that that is the that is a possible

02:08:17 that that is the that is a possible interpretation i uh accept that that it could be such right i was expecting him to have done that can you just tell me this

02:08:25 this i get the impression from a number of answers you've given that you were under the impression right wrongly i don't don't actually know that whoever was london gold as a result

02:08:36 that whoever was london gold as a result of the

02:08:37 of the invocation of the arrangements had some right to come in and take over from you yes and that was your understanding of the arrangement absolutely mr shown yes all right thank you very much

02:08:51 let's go to rbk3028809

02:08:57 this is an email from john hetherington deputy head of london resilience at the time

02:09:01 time of 1327

02:09:06 to all local authority chief executives and you can see it sent on behalf of john baradel and you and he confirms this he says good afternoon following a request from rb kensington and chelsea for strategic

02:09:18 rb kensington and chelsea for strategic support due to the increasing complexity and severity of the grenfell tower fire the london local authority gold operations have been activated this is to ensure the london local government collectively supports our bknc during

02:09:30 collectively supports our bknc during these extremely challenging times john baradel is supporting our bknc and will be supported by further chief executives as required those chief executives are aware and on standby

02:09:43 aware and on standby is that a correct summary or summation of matters as you understood them at that time

02:09:49 that time 1327 on the 16th of june well i i mean i think it is um phrased sort of delicately or circumspectly

02:10:00 circumspectly i think that it is um

02:10:03 um actually

02:10:05 actually a reasonably enough clear implication of this that john is really in charge and

02:10:12 and if you like the giveaway is john baradel is supporting our bknc which is a polite way of putting it and will be supported by further chief executives as required those chief

02:10:24 executives as required those chief executives are aware and on standby i'm afraid that to me is a tactful way of saying

02:10:30 saying uh london gold is in charge why was the tax necessary i i think probably uh

02:10:38 uh probably they thought it might be offensive or

02:10:44 embarrassing or something just to say we've had to shoulder our bkc aside and you know get a grip but that is i think what they are really saying let's then turn to the post

02:10:55 saying let's then turn to the post activation period from two o'clock on the 16th of june what was your role once john beradel took up the reigns at two o'clock

02:11:03 o'clock um well i think to facilitate and to um

02:11:08 um you know if he wanted something or he wanted clarity over who in the council was doing such and such a thing then that would be that i would be one of the people who would help him do that

02:11:20 of the people who would help him do that is it fair to say that you considered your role to entail significantly fewer actions

02:11:25 actions in relation to those leading the response from 17th of june onwards uh well even from the 16th or from the afternoon of the 16th and i think it's right that rbkc did not participate in any of these strategic

02:11:36 participate in any of these strategic coordination meetings from the 18th of june until the 20th of june uh that's probably true yes i can't remember and you say in your statement it's paragraph 46 at page nine that by

02:11:47 it's paragraph 46 at page nine that by the 17th of june that's the saturday you were to look after logistics at rbkc

02:11:56 and several knew better how to handle the situation than i did you say and then i agreed there was a need to demonstrate a renewed effort when was it that you first realized that

02:12:07 when was it that you first realized that uh well

02:12:08 uh well that we needed to where are we but let me show you paragraph six paragraph can we get your statement please a paragraph 46 on page nine and just let me just show you the exact

02:12:19 just let me just show you the exact words you used in the last sentence you say several knew better how to handle the situation than i did and they and i agreed that there was a need to demonstrate a

02:12:30 there was a need to demonstrate a renewed effort when did that need first occur to you um well i thought the implication of london gold taking over was that there would be

02:12:41 was that there would be significant input from numerous other london boroughs and that this as it were they needed to be uh quite a different

02:12:53 uh quite a different uh scale

02:12:55 uh scale let alone look and feel to the local authority presence in north kensington now in terms of how rbkc communications with the public were controlled after this point

02:13:07 this point was it

02:13:07 was it what was it that changed in any way by the activation of la la gold uh well i think by the saturday um

02:13:18 um first of all our head of media and communications had resigned and seconded that martin fitzpatrick indeed right and secondly i think that john had looked to julia corkey

02:13:31 john had looked to julia corkey who was the head of

02:13:34 head of communications at westminster to be

02:13:39 to be on point for how

02:13:42 how the grenfell recovery task force would communicate with any audience notably residents of north kensington right

02:13:53 why had martin fitzpatrick resigned um i think that um [Music]

02:14:00 [Music] it is a very delicate matter and um a matter of considerable sadness that i think that he uh

02:14:09 uh felt that he could not cope to put it

02:14:13 to put it politely

02:14:15 politely uh were you aware that the prime minister spoke with the leader of the council on the evening of the 16th of june 2017. i probably was aware because i would imagine that the leader would

02:14:26 i would imagine that the leader would have shared that with me but i don't remember the import of what she said right

02:14:32 right can we look at rbk3021098

02:14:37 this is an email from lorna gratton [Music]

02:14:41 [Music] second email down to sue redmond on saturday the june june the 17th at 6 03 p.m

02:14:47 p.m as you can see and we looked at this with sue redmond when she had evidence earlier yes this week see page two if you can go to that please and she

02:14:59 and she says there on page two

02:15:04 uh it's under specific requests from residents

02:15:14 residents and it says council supreme act should proactively contact clement james center representatives to note pm requested the council leader to make contact with all mosques churches and temples by the end

02:15:25 mosques churches and temples by the end of day friday when she spoke to him on friday evening this doesn't appear to have been done were you aware of that were you aware of the prime minister's command

02:15:34 command i don't think i was right

02:15:39 were you aware of whether whether any proactive contact was made with the clement james center and the other faith centers

02:15:46 centers i think it's quite likely that the councillors will have been doing that not necessarily in response to the prime minister but i'm sure they will have been

02:15:54 been all akina to do so uh given her instruction i mean the leader had been on the board of management or

02:16:05 had been on the board of management or something like the board of management of the almanac mosque and i think there was another councillor on the board at that time and i think there were quite good

02:16:16 i think there were quite good links between councillors and a number of the bodies that she would have had in mind so

02:16:23 mind so but this is number 10 telling your halo that the prime minister had made a specific request to the council leader to make contact with these faith groups and places and it hadn't been done can

02:16:35 and places and it hadn't been done can you account for that um no

02:16:39 um no but but as i say i think that it is quite likely that councillors had been in contact with some of them and there were already links for example between

02:16:50 were already links for example between the leader of the council and the almana mosque so it may well be that they thought they were in compliance with this even if they weren't quoting her instruction to do so right now we can we

02:17:01 instruction to do so right now we can we go to cab406343

02:17:06 where i think we see an email about the call that the leader had had with the prime minister on the friday evening the 16th of june

02:17:16 uh this is from aleister whitehead to a number of others including lorna gratton and gavin barwell as you can see and

02:17:25 and ccpm private office support team readout is the subject prime minister call with leader of kensington and chelsea council all the prime minister called the leader of kensington and chelsea council this

02:17:36 of kensington and chelsea council this evening here with a readout and then the first bullet the pm reported that from her visit the overwhelming message from those affected was that there had been no communication from the council and people didn't feel that the council was

02:17:47 people didn't feel that the council was coordinating things properly now just pausing there was that a fair observation um well i mean i think communications have been uh poor absolutely right and i

02:18:00 have been uh poor absolutely right and i think that um our coordination was poor i think that is true um but i would say that i think that we were

02:18:08 were beginning to maintain working out how to maintain regular contact with survivors of the fire working it out two days later well um if

02:18:20 working it out two days later well um if i recall correctly there had been attempts to visit people for whom we had found accommodation on the thursday but quite often for very

02:18:31 the thursday but quite often for very understandable reasons um

02:18:33 um appointments had not been kept and so i mean i think we were trying to do the right thing for those most severely affected even as a i mean it's not early

02:18:44 affected even as a i mean it's not early but even as soon as the thursday

02:18:49 and then the second bullet point leader reported that there had been a big response from the voluntary sector and the council officers were engaged but there had been some confusion and the council is not held in the highest

02:19:00 council is not held in the highest regard was that something of an understatement um

02:19:04 um well i think it is true um i think it is true by the friday evening uh that but that was so yes

02:19:15 that was so yes now can we go please to rbk3068075

02:19:20 finally

02:19:24 this is a report which was commissioned and created

02:19:30 created by the council after your departure and it captured or purported to capture at least the learning from the grenfell tower of fire and members of staff from across the council were invited to respond

02:19:43 council were invited to respond and if we go please to page 13 at annex a we can see the

02:19:49 the um some of the comments and two-thirds of the way down the page theme leadership do you see that yes and it and it says the majority of comments focused on the lack of direction and visibility of senior

02:20:01 direction and visibility of senior management immediately after the fire some comments indicated that this may have hindered the ability to provide an efficient coordinated response to residents

02:20:10 residents and then there are some quotations from what people have said quotes a sense of panic prevailed needed some clear positive and calm leadership senior leadership across the council seemed slow to coordinate action and

02:20:22 seemed slow to coordinate action and make decisions this meant that frontline staff were struggling to get answers to support questions or face different responses depending who they talked to and another an immediate response on the ground i felt it took too long to be

02:20:34 ground i felt it took too long to be deployed by which time we had lost the trust of the residents and community lack of leaders to send staff out in the first few hours now is there anything you would say um

02:20:45 um but

02:20:46 but to those comments would you say they were fair would you say they were unjustified um well i'm sure there is um justice in all of them um i don't think that there was um

02:21:00 um i don't think that there was um a sense of panic prevalent throughout the period i'm sure there were at least moments of panic or examples of panic but i don't think that was true um as it were ordinarily through those

02:21:13 um as it were ordinarily through those early days um

02:21:15 um i think that there were positive and calm members of senior management um so

02:21:22 um so you know there was some there may not have been enough of that we may have been slow on occasion i think that it is fair to say that there was as i said earlier

02:21:34 was as i said earlier a long gap between people having to

02:21:39 having to evacuate the tower and then the council providing a source of assistance and that is i think very difficult to overcome

02:21:49 overcome given the

02:21:50 given the state of arrangements even if the council had been had had more people in the borough emergency control center and even if we'd had more training actually there was a problem there of geography which

02:22:03 was a problem there of geography which was not easy to overcome at all at that time of day finally can i show you lfb3061161

02:22:19 this is a cabinet office document entitled the role of local resilience forums a reference document uh and

02:22:25 uh and uh you can see at the bottom left-hand corner that it bears the date of july 2013. just looking at the first page is this a document with which you were familiar during your time as chief executive do you think

02:22:36 executive do you think um i wouldn't be sure no well let's look at pages 50 let's look at page 53

02:22:45 and these are the principles about recovery

02:22:49 recovery at paragraph 123 and if you look at the last bullet point on that page it says this recovery management is best approached from the perspective of community development and is most effective when conducted at a local level with the active

02:23:00 local level with the active participation of the affected community and a strong reliance on local capacities and expertise recovery is not just a matter for the statutory agencies the private sector the voluntary sector and the wider community will play a

02:23:12 and the wider community will play a crucial role and then over the page recovery management is most effective when agencies involved in human welfare have a major role in all levels of decision making which may influence the well-being and recovery of the affected

02:23:23 well-being and recovery of the affected community

02:23:24 community recovery is best achieved by the recovery process begins from the moment the emergency is identified it is recommended if resources allow that the rcg is set up on the first day of the

02:23:35 rcg is set up on the first day of the emergency

02:23:37 emergency uh

02:23:38 uh i won't ask you what the acronym stands for and then recovery planning and management arrangements are most effective where they are supported by training programs and exercises which ensure that the agencies and groups involved in the recovery process are

02:23:50 involved in the recovery process are properly prepared for their role i think rcg is a recovery coordination group but i'll be corrected about that that's wrong and then recovery is most effective where recovery management arrangements provide a comprehensive and

02:24:02 arrangements provide a comprehensive and integrated framework for managing all potential emergencies and where assistance measures are provided in a timely fair and equitable manner and are sufficiently flexible to respond to a diversity of community needs now my

02:24:14 diversity of community needs now my first question is where you were familiar with those principles even if not specifically this document before june 2017

02:24:22 june 2017 i think i was familiar with the idea of the recovery process beginning from the moment the emergency was identified right um yes i think i would have been familiar with those principles yeah were

02:24:33 familiar with those principles yeah were you or had you systems in place whereby you were approaching preparedness from the perspective of community development

02:24:43 i i think we would i think i would struggle to um

02:24:53 no i i would struggle to say that we were ready to engage or develop with the community in the recovery from the tragedy

02:25:05 did it matter was it relevant that key directors like sue redmond and laura johnson had no developed training on contingency management and no understanding of the available services or services available from the lnag

02:25:18 or services available from the lnag yes i'm sure it does matter yes

02:25:23 and uh do you accept that there was insufficient training especially in relation to the humanitarian aspects of recovery

02:25:30 recovery yes i do um though i would like to add a rider that i think that

02:25:36 with hindsight on a tragedy of this scale actually probably the training would need to go rather further than even a compliant authority might have imagined

02:25:48 authority might have imagined necessary did you or anybody in the council ever take steps to examine the systems you had in place examine these principles which involve preparedness and

02:25:59 which involve preparedness and engagement with the community and satisfy yourself that the systems you had in place were were compliant with the requirements of the equality act 2010

02:26:10 equality act 2010 i think we might have thought that

02:26:14 that although relations in north kensington were not as good as in the rest of the borough i think we might have thought that the sense of partnership we had with

02:26:25 sense of partnership we had with community bodies there would have formed a basis for recovery were a disaster to occur i don't think that adds up to what you said but i do think it would

02:26:37 what you said but i do think it would have been and in other circumstances it could have been a good place to start thank you mr chairman those are all my prepared questions i'm i have got a clutch of other questions uh which i

02:26:50 clutch of other questions uh which i think i will have to put to mr holgate perhaps after the break because they may go with further questions which may come in yes well mr hill gate even though council's reached the end of

02:27:02 even though council's reached the end of what he thinks of his prepared questions we have to have a break at this point to give him a chance to check he's not left anything out suddenly and equally importantly we have to give an opportunity for those who are

02:27:14 an opportunity for those who are following the proceedings from elsewhere to suggest questions which maybe we should put to you so we'll stop now and uh have 10 minute break we'll come back at 20 to 5 and at that point we'll see whether any

02:27:25 and at that point we'll see whether any more questions for you thank you all right and again please don't talk to anyone about your evidence certainly thank you very much would you go to the usher please

02:27:42 thank you mr minute 20 to five cynthia thank you

02:40:30 would you ask mr holgate to come back in please

02:40:44 all right let's tell game well let's see if there's any more questions for you yes yes mr chairman just one or two first can we just look at the transcript for this morning please uh line 40 or page 43 line

02:40:55 page 43 line 19 and 20.

02:40:59 and i was asking you

02:41:06 so page 43

02:41:12 what does that

02:41:22 yeah uh and i asked you at line 19 why you remember it was 4 30 particularly and you said that you'd uh he was busy on email and phone for a while i'd retrieve the copy of the

02:41:33 while i'd retrieve the copy of the emergency plan in the flat and then after a while my wife got up and we agreed it would be very sensible thing to go and look at the circumstances around grenfell tower so we probably set off around four something like that

02:41:44 off around four something like that um

02:41:45 um did you take your wife down there well she took me down there because i don't drive right i see all right um

02:41:53 um why was it a topic of discussion about whether you would go down there and look at the circumstances what lies behind my question is was it not obvious that you should well i i think it was it was more a case

02:42:04 well i i think it was it was more a case of when and how um yeah and what did you expect to learn by going to the scene um i wanted some impression of the activity around the rest centers in

02:42:16 the activity around the rest centers in particular and some idea of what the the

02:42:21 the environment felt like um just the tower but the sort of environment around the tower and i didn't really know what to expect

02:42:33 and i didn't really know what to expect and i thought that some sort of first hand exposure was sensible because i was conscious as i said also this morning i

02:42:45 conscious as i said also this morning i was conscious of the expectation that gold didn't stray far from the back thereafter so it was it was the probably the only opportunity to have some sense

02:42:56 the only opportunity to have some sense for myself of what was happening right next question next topic um was there any discussion at any stage of ring fencing a part of the budget so that you always had a sure

02:43:09 that you always had a sure fund

02:43:10 fund to be able to pay for

02:43:13 for the right number of staff and the right number of trained staff who could respond across the whole field of london resilience if called upon i don't

02:43:25 i don't i don't remember anything of that nature it sounds like a perfectly good idea i think it might founder on borough's autonomy so

02:43:36 borough's autonomy so of course the the fire may have made quite a big difference to how boroughs

02:43:42 boroughs plan to cooperate together in future but if you had put such a thing forward before the fire you might have found quite a bit of resistance to um

02:43:52 um borough funds being preempted or presumed by some entity beyond the boroughs themselves

02:44:02 now i asked you earlier in your evidence about the reasons for not invading london gold on the morning of the 14th of june

02:44:13 of june and one of the things you said was that the housing department was going to work as a department pretty much entirely on the tasks to reach survivors did you discuss with laura johnson that question i discussed what she thought we could do

02:44:26 i discussed what she thought we could do um i think i had a telephone conversation with her even before um we both got to the town hall right did you explore with laura johnson what her understanding of the

02:44:38 johnson what her understanding of the llag system was no

02:44:43 and what about with sue redmond who became the halo did you discuss with her i don't know i don't recall doing so right

02:44:54 was one of your errors in in proceeding without calling in any llag gold at an earlier point not properly testing with those two individuals at least and

02:45:05 those two individuals at least and perhaps other executive officers whether they were equipped to cope yes i think that's a very fair point indeed what i should have done um i mean really i should have done something like

02:45:16 really i should have done something like that as soon as as soon as realistically possible

02:45:21 possible and failing that i could have done it um adjacent to the gold meeting at 11 o'clock

02:45:27 o'clock now

02:45:28 now i haven't asked you about david kerry um was it your impression at least by the 14th and later on in the 14th and he'd gone home but when he came back on the 14th um that he had he was as i

02:45:40 the 14th um that he had he was as i think as he put it really zonked and inoperable um i wouldn't have formed that impression no i think i was aware that he

02:45:50 he obviously i was aware that he'd be not most of the night and i

02:45:54 and i accepted his decision to hand over to others mid-morning so um and

02:46:02 so um and i appreciate from my own point of view i would not necessarily have got much sleep in the course of the day so it wouldn't have surprised me if he wasn't feeling um

02:46:14 if he wasn't feeling um on top form by that evening but

02:46:18 but as a

02:46:19 as a as a

02:46:21 as a practitioner of long standing um i might have expected him to say i can't do this or i need someone else to come and do it with me or something like that

02:46:32 and do it with me or something like that i don't recall him saying that he felt unequal to that challenge now both rebecca blackburn and sue redmond in their evidence have referred to raising concerns with you antonio

02:46:43 to raising concerns with you antonio redpath about david kerry do you recall that

02:46:45 that um

02:46:46 um again

02:46:47 again as ever if they say that i'm sure they did that i don't think either of them would have had the chance to do that on the 14th they may well have had the chance to do so later did you come to a view that david kerry was really

02:46:58 view that david kerry was really incapable

02:47:00 incapable in the circumstances of running the beck as silva no right do you remember whether you were asked by rebecca blackburn about gold and by redmond about the need for structure do

02:47:11 redmond about the need for structure do you remember being addressed by them on those topics uh no but i'm more than happy to assume that they are right do you did you feel that you were having you were receiving

02:47:22 were having you were receiving sufficient support and advice reliable advice from those in the contingency department within the council during those first two days

02:47:34 i think that uh

02:47:37 uh it is very hard to know what you could reasonably expect of

02:47:45 of a

02:47:47 a not very large group of people operating under considerable stress in unprecedented circumstances and if i may say so i do not think that

02:47:58 and if i may say so i do not think that another training exercise or two would have clarified that situation i think there is a very considerable difference between training and practice on the one hand however sensible and however

02:48:11 hand however sensible and however necessary they are and they would have made a difference and the actuality of something like the grenfell tower fire and and finally do you accept having

02:48:22 and and finally do you accept having seen the evidence that we've been going through together that um at least an aspect of your reluctance to invoke lleg gold until late thursday the 15th was that it would have been

02:48:34 the 15th was that it would have been politically damaging to the council no i don't accept that actually um i don't think i again it comes back to a

02:48:44 to a hugely

02:48:45 hugely obvious and important distinction between

02:48:48 between substance and presentation

02:48:52 you know in the treasury in the dcms in the local authority until then i was always about the substance if i'd thought that rbkc could not cope then it

02:49:03 thought that rbkc could not cope then it would have been madness to have carried on just because it was embarrassing to admit as much it would uh you know that would not that is not part of my makeup

02:49:15 of my makeup now looking back on it now and based on what you know now and the evidence we've examined together over the past

02:49:21 the past day of your evidence is there anything in your role that you would have done differently mr holgate uh yes but we've spent most of the day really um exploring that so

02:49:32 exploring that so the most obvious thing should have been to have

02:49:34 to have activated london gold more or less at 20 past three on the wednesday morning failing that as laura johnson said yesterday to have

02:49:46 as laura johnson said yesterday to have paid more attention to what the council was trying to communicate and if necessary to shut out the reactive work that absorbed i think too much time of the

02:49:58 absorbed i think too much time of the media team and to have focused on proactive

02:50:02 proactive work

02:50:03 work and i should of course even having made the first mistake of not invoking london gold straight away i should have got on with their humanitarian assistance

02:50:14 assistance on the wednesday as well i mean those are just the headlines i think there is more besides that one could list is there anything else you'd like to say to add your evidence that perhaps

02:50:25 to say to add your evidence that perhaps i haven't covered with you that could help us with our investigations

02:50:33 well again with the benefit of hindsight um i think that and if you'll forgive me reverting to

02:50:44 and if you'll forgive me reverting to the sort of policy analyst in the civil service that i once was i think that the ability

02:50:52 ability to

02:50:52 to um

02:50:54 um deal

02:50:55 deal to the quality that we would all want our ability to address the needs of the survivors the bereaved and others after

02:51:06 survivors the bereaved and others after a tragedy of this scale would require an intensity and an extent of preparation which to me in all probability goes well beyond what

02:51:19 in all probability goes well beyond what was then expected even of a compliant authority

02:51:23 authority and i may be wrong about that because i've been wrong about quite a lot um but i think that is true and to take just one example so i'm very glad

02:51:34 take just one example so i'm very glad for the council's sake that they now have two tests a year instead of one but i wonder whether those tests are done without warning for example and running full-scale tests without

02:51:48 and running full-scale tests without warning is a major call and would obviously involve forgoing service to other customers of the council during the period over which you would run

02:51:59 the period over which you would run such a thing but that is the kind of choice that i think authorities in the aftermath of grenfell fire have to confront and have to be explicit about

02:52:10 confront and have to be explicit about what they are aiming to achieve and the standards they expect to set themselves and i don't think that was the case before the fire thank you

02:52:20 thank you well um mr holgate i've come to the end of all of my questions and it only remains for me to thank you very much for coming to the inquiry and assisting us with our investigations and we're extremely grateful to you thank you may

02:52:32 extremely grateful to you thank you may i say

02:52:33 i say how profoundly sorry i am to the

02:52:37 to the survivors and the bereaved and other residents

02:52:41 residents for

02:52:42 for the

02:52:43 the fire itself and for the failures of the council to cope in the aftermath in the way that it would have expected of itself under any other circumstance i

02:52:54 of itself under any other circumstance i am profoundly sorry thank you

02:52:58 thank you well thank you mr holgate it's right that i should add the thanks of the panel to those expressed by mr millet it's

02:53:04 it's been very helpful to us to hear uh what you have to tell us about how you tried to handle things in the days immediately following the fire uh it's been not only interesting but

02:53:15 uh it's been not only interesting but very useful and we are very grateful to you for coming to give us your evidence thank you thank you very much indeed and now of course you're free to go thank you very much

02:53:35 well thank you mr millet that's all for today and we shall resume on monday morning at 10 o'clock with another witness yes mr chairman can i express our gratitude to the panel for sitting late on the thursday evening and also to

02:53:46 late on the thursday evening and also to the transcriber and to the uh opus operators for doing the same we're very grateful to the accommodation yes monday morning tma witnesses thank you very much you're quite right to thank them because we can't operate without the

02:53:58 because we can't operate without the support of all those who deal with the technical side of things so um i'm very glad we were able to finish this tailgate's evidence today

02:54:09 finish this tailgate's evidence today and thank you all of you who are prepared to sit late to do that very good thank you 10 o'clock on monday morning

02:54:33 you